For the purposes of depolarization, I think it's important to understand the us-vs-them political narratives around us. This is a talk with Rich Logis (www.perfectourunion.us), who describes his journey as going "from ultra-MAGA to Never-Trump." Rich was an involved pro-Trump activist, who'd written many political op-eds and who volunteered for pro-Trump causes, and who, in 2021, switched to being very critical of Trump and MAGA. I ask Rich about the reasons he was enthusiastic about Trump: what the sources of his anger were, and why he viewed Hillary Clinton winning in 2016 as an "existential threat." We discuss some of the more rational reasons behind Trump support, and why he believes most Trump voters are good people, and why liberals should care to understand Trump voter perspectives. We talk about the nature of us-vs-them conflict and how it distorts our thinking and emotions. We talk about what led to his abrupt change of mind when it came to Trump and MAGA. 

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