People Who Read People: A Behavior and Psychology Podcast

How does someone make a living playing slot machines—and why would casinos let them? After joining professional gambler Chris Huang on a casino trip in Atlantic City, I talk with him about the unusual career of casino “advantage play” and how pro slot machine players capture the money left behind by other, less knowledgeable players. We explore why manufacturers create beatable machines, the psychological tricks that machine makers use to attract players, and the unethical actions some slot machine pros take to manipulate players into leaving profitable seats. Chris explains the risks pro slot machine players can encounter, how seemingly promising opportunities can turn into expensive mistakes, why a little knowledge can be dangerous, and what happens when you run out of cash in the middle of a long-term play. We also discuss online gambling “gurus” selling dubious claims of expertise, the secrecy and competition among slot professionals, and the appeal—and pressures—of making a living this way. Learn more about Chris at youtube.com/@gamblingeducationwithchris.

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A talk with Andrew Thompson, a New York City-area private investigator and a researcher of criminal behavior and interrogation techniques. Andrew shares how he gets people talking while lacking the authority and command of a police badge, and what studying FBI crime cases and interrogations taught him about linguistic clues to deception in people’s stories. We also discuss his research into criminal personality categories and how that may be tied to linguistic patterns. We discuss how mistaking signs of anxiety for guilt or deception can send investigators down very wrong paths; and how aggressive questioning can contribute to false confessions and other negative outcomes. We discuss why appearing uninterested in an important revelation from someone can sometimes encourage them to reveal more, and other tips on influencing and manipulating people in order to achieve investigative results. And Andrew discusses how AI advances have affected the investigative industry.

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On this podcast I sometimes explore the “behavior expert” industry. One thing I'm curious about is the value people say that they’ve received from “behavior expert” trainings and certifications. This is a talk with Gallia Winkler, a psychological coach and a behavioral student of Joe Navarro’s; she’s been certified in his Body Language Expert Program. I ask her about what drives her interest in nonverbal behavior, what value she believes she’s gotten from Navarro's teachings, and how those teachings have helped her in her personal and professional life.

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A talk with former CIA officer Kent Clizbe about the exaggerated, irresponsible claims made by many self-described “behavior experts,” focusing especially on Paul Ekman, Joe Navarro, microexpressions, and attempts to detect deception from body language. We discuss why facial expressions and physical movements cannot be interpreted through a universal dictionary, how cultural and individual differences make behavioral judgments especially difficult, and why nervousness or discomfort is rarely meaningful evidence of guilt or deception in high-stakes situations. We examine the failed TSA SPOT program, the influence of shows like “Lie to Me” (which was loosely based on Paul Ekman’s work), and the lack of convincing real-world, high-stakes examples supporting “behavior expert” claims. We also explore how behavioral hunches can contribute to tunnel vision, false confessions, and wrongful convictions; why games like poker can offer a more constrained and useful setting for behavioral reads; and why the most actionable information in high-stakes situations almost always comes from what people say, what they leave out, and how their statements compare with known facts.

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A talk with an Army Psychological Operations soldier about what military psy-op work really involves—and how different the reality is from many people's ideas about the nature of that work. We discuss his psy-op work in Afghanistan, why credibility and truth are usually much more persuasive and effective than deception, and fascinating historical operations involving surrender appeals, staged intelligence, and Vietnam’s eerie “ghost tapes.” We also explore the legal and ethical limits on influencing Americans, how social media has blurred those boundaries, how foreign influence campaigns exploit political polarization, and why “PSYOP” has become an all-purpose label for conspiracy theories. Finally, we examine the red flags that can help you identify self-proclaimed-but-deceptive military-persuasion experts (like Chase Hughes) who fabricate and exaggerate their credentials and experience to sell their psychology- and behavior-focused training and products.

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Can machines spot a lie better than we can? I talk with psychology researcher Bennett Kleinberg, whose work brings together psychology, machine learning, natural-language processing, and deception detection. We explore why humans are bad at identifying lies, which verbal clues may reveal deception—and why nervousness is often misleading. Bennett explains how liars use detail and how level of detail can be a clue to deception, the fact that deception usually involves a good amount of truth in the mix and what that means, and what happens when human judgment is combined with AI. We also discuss the risks of the mysterious black-box nature of some machine learning systems, and how smarter, research-informed interviewing techniques could transform criminal investigations. For more details and a transcript, see this episode’s entry at www.behavior-podcast.com.

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Can machines spot a lie better than we can? I talk with psychology researcher Bennett Kleinberg, whose work brings together psychology, machine learning, natural-language processing, and deception detection. We explore why humans are bad at identifying lies, which verbal clues may reveal deception—and why nervousness is often misleading. Bennett explains how liars use detail and how level of detail can be a clue to deception, the fact that deception usually involves a good amount of truth in the mix and what that means, and what happens when human judgment is combined with AI. We also discuss the risks of the mysterious black-box nature of some machine learning systems, and how smarter, research-informed interviewing techniques could transform criminal investigations. For more details and a transcript, see this episode’s entry at www.behavior-podcast.com.

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Former Scientologist Chris Shelton spent thousands of hours using the e-meter to "audit" fellow members of the Church—but what does the device actually measure, and why do Scientologists trust it as an infallible guide to the truth? Chris takes us inside a typical auditing session, explaining the personal questions auditors ask, the needle movements they watch for, and what they believe those reactions reveal. We compare the e-meter with the polygraph, explore how relentless questioning can produce false memories and confessions, and examine how auditors can sincerely believe they are helping even when their methods become coercive or abusive. If you’re interested in Scientology, interrogation, or behavior reading, this is a fascinating look at how a simple machine can acquire enormous power through belief. For more on this topic, check out Chris’s podcast Speaking of Cults.

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Former Scientologist Chris Shelton spent thousands of hours using the e-meter to "audit" fellow members of the Church—but what does the device actually measure, and why do Scientologists trust it as an infallible guide to the truth? Chris takes us inside a typical auditing session, explaining the personal questions auditors ask, the needle movements they watch for, and what they believe those reactions reveal. We compare the e-meter with the polygraph, explore how relentless questioning can produce false memories and confessions, and examine how auditors can sincerely believe they are helping even when their methods become coercive or abusive. If you’re interested in Scientology, interrogation, or behavior reading, this is a fascinating look at how a simple machine can acquire enormous power through belief. For more on this topic, check out Chris’s podcast Speaking of Cults.

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In a 2014 deception detection study, Pete Blair made 33 judgments—and got all 33 right. That paper was titled “Expertise in deception detection involves actively prompting diagnostic information rather than passive behavioral observation.” I ask Pete about what the factors were in him getting 100% accuracy in that study, and we talk about the interplay between verbal and nonverbal behavior. Pete talks about the importance of context and domain knowledge in making high-confidence judgments, and he discusses how such insights will sometimes be based on aspects that we aren’t consciously aware of.

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