How does biodynamic farming transform a vineyard into a thriving, interconnected ecosystem? What do wild orchids reveal about the health of a vineyard? How do France’s preschool lunches help to create a nation of gourmets?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Caro Feely, author of the terrific memoir Grape Expectations: A Family’s Vineyard Adventure in France.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, Grape Adventures. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

How did Caro’s daughter’s medical emergency shape her perspective on risk?

Why did Caro feel like a bad mom in the early years of the winery?

How has living in France influenced Caro’s approach to food and wine?

When did Caro realize the wine business was becoming financially viable?

What are some of the most interesting aspects of biodynamics?

What’s the significance of wild orchids in a vineyard?

Which wine would Caro pair with her favourite childhood food, marmalade on toast?

Why would Caro want to share a bottle of wine with Al Gore?

Key Takeaways

As Caro explains, often biodynamics is just picked on as a woo woo, but really, it's about listening to your land and being present. Biodynamics is organics, plus. It's essentially three things: It's working with plant and animal-based sprays to keep the vineyard healthy, using the biodynamic calendar to do things at the right moment. It's about listening to what's going on in the sky. We all notice the sun, but all the other bodies in the sky also have an impact. Lunatic comes from the fact that the moon does have an effect on us. The final thing is to think of your farm as a whole farm system as a living thing where everything is connected. We can't just look at the vine on its own, like a unit of production. It is a living thing, and it is a vibrant living environment.

Caro says that when they bought the farm in 2005, it was conventionally farmed. They started organic farming and in 2008 the wild orchids came back. The systemic fungicides had worked their way out of the soil. Essentially, our soil health was coming back. The mycorrhizae, the fungi growing symbiotically with the roots of the vine, helps them to extend their network, to get more nutrients. However, mycorrhizae will not be there if you're using systemic fungicides.

Caro loves France's respect for food and for taking time to enjoy it. There’s a tradition in the country where everybody, no matter what they do, is somewhat of a gourmet and knows about food and wine. She thinks it does go back to schools with their three-course lunch when they're two and a half at preschool.

About Caro Feely

Caro Feely is a writer, yoga teacher, wine educator and organic farmer. She leads authentic, personalized and educative wine tours, wine courses, walking tours and yoga retreats near Bordeaux in France. She is a published author, an engaging speaker, a registered Yoga Alliance yoga teacher, a WSET* wine educator, and a professional with many years of workshop, presentation, teaching, and management experience. Caro offers accommodation, tours and yoga at her organic farm in Saussignac.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/339.

What makes vine growing and winemaking so physically demanding? What are the hidden dangers of winemaking that most wine lovers never hear about? Why are some winemakers choosing to label their wines as Vin de France rather than follow strict appellation rules?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Caro Feely

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of her terrific book, Grape Adventures. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

How did Oprah Winfrey influence Caro and her husband to follow their dream of owning a vineyard in France?

What was behind the decision to leave their corporate jobs for winemaking, which was such a different career?

Why did Caro choose Bordeaux and Saussignac in particular?

What were the main criteria that Caro and her husband sought when choosing a vineyard?

Were there any transferable skills from the corporate IT world that were helpful in running a winery?

What was the most surprising hurdle Caro and her husband had to overcome to buy their winery?

How does Caro handle the tension between making wines she believes in versus what will pass official approvals or market trends?

Why did Chateau Feely want to be classified as Vin De France?

How physically demanding is winemaking?

What are some of the funniest and most surprising animal-related episodes that have happened at the winery?

Key Takeaways

As Caro explains it involves heavy machinery, tractors, attaching things to tractors, moving heavy pipes and other equipment around. Even hand picking grapes is a fairly active sport. Removing the vine shoots or suckers at the base of the vine is a big job and backbreaking. They don't want them to grow because they take nutrients from the grapes.

Caro says that many wine lovers don't realize how dangerous winemaking is. There are four killers of wine makers. The first one was asphyxiation by CO2. In the fermentation, CO2 is created. If you don't have a way for it to get out of the closed spaces, you're going to get asphyxiated. The second one is falling from height particularly if a little bit of CO2 has escaped and made you a little lightheaded. The next one is machinery, so horrific things like falling into a harvest trailer. Electrocution because you're working with liquids and high electricity.

Caro says that almost all of her wines are labelled Vin de France because she felt that so many of the appellation rules were not about the quality of the wine. She wanted to be free of those unnecessary constraints. For example, one biodynamic winemaker got kicked out of the appellation system because he had weeds under his vines. He handpicks his grapes so it actually doesn't matter if they're weeds under the vines. If you machine pick, the machine will kind of suck up the weeds. Caro would much rather have some weeds than have to use synthetic weed killer. Even when it comes to Saint-Émilion Grand Cru Classé and Premier Grand Cru Classé, some growers got more appellation points for having a parking lot for tour guests than they received for being certified organic.

About Caro Feely

Caro Feely is a writer, yoga teacher, wine educator and organic farmer. She leads authentic, personalized and educative wine tours, wine courses, walking tours and yoga retreats near Bordeaux in France. She is a published author, an engaging speaker, a registered Yoga Alliance yoga teacher, a WSET* wine educator, and a professional with many years of workshop, presentation, teaching, and management experience. Caro offers accommodation, tours and yoga at her organic farm in Saussignac.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/338.

Why is Rosé the go-to wine for celebrity-owned brands rather than Chardonnay or Cabernet? Why are the younger generations of wine drinkers choosing Rosé over red? Is the Rosé boom just a trend, or is its popularity here to stay?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré, who co-published the Rose Revolution.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Highlights

What are the main differences between wines from Domaine Tempier and Domaine Ott?

What makes some Rosé wines better for aging than others?

How did Gerard Bertrand’s background influence his winemaking style?

Which Provençal cuisine dishes pair best with the Rosé wines?

Why do so many celebrities who come to the wine world choose to make Rosé?

Which celebrity wines are worth buying?

How has social media impacted the Rosé Revolution?

What does the future look like for Rosé’s popularity?

Why have more men started drinking Rosé?

Which wine regions should wine lovers visit to immerse themselves in the world of Rosé?

Key Takeaways

Why is Rosé the go-to wine for celebrity-owned brands rather than Chardonnay or Cabernet?

As Rasmus and Jens explain, Rosé is much easier to embrace for a broad audience. Rosé has a lot of lovers, but they don't have any enemies. So you can be a serious musician, a rocker, a pop star, and embrace Rosé. When you're just a celebrity and not a winemaker it's way more bankable and easier to market. We tried a lot of those wines and I'll tell you, some of them are pretty good, big bang for the buck. Brad Pitt, John Legend, Sarah Jessica Parker, Jon Bon Jovi, Cameron Diaz and Kylie Minogue

Why are the younger generations of wine drinkers choosing Rosé over red?

Rasmus and Jens observe that young people don't drink much red wine, but they drink a lot of white wine and Rosé because it's kind of like a celebratory wine. It's become a wine you kind of gather around. You don't disagree about it. You can’t be talked down to if you don't know the terroir, the grapes etc. If it's endorsed by a rapper or rock music or whatever, it enhances that experience.

Is the Rosé boom just a trend or is its popularity here to stay?

Rasmus and Jens believe that Rosé has established itself as a third wine category. We’ll still see the quality improve and higher price points. In France, 3 out of 10 bottles are Rosé, globally, it's about one out of 10. They are seeing a trend of Rosé taking market share from red wine whereas white wine is stable.

About Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré

Rasmus Emborg is a journalist who has worked in the media industry for over 25 years. He is the author of Beer Brothers (2019), about twin beer brewers Mikkel Borg-Bjergsø and Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergsø. He and his wife own a small vineyard in Provence. The grapes are mainly used for rosé wine, and the production takes place at a local cooperative.

Jens Honoré is a photographer who has worked in the advertising industry for 30 years. In 2018, he published A Place to Dream for SOS Children’s Villages, and in partnership with Jens Vilstrup, he published the book, Farewell to a Black/White World about the UN’s 2015 Sustainable Development Goals. He has also contributed to Building a Dream about LEGO owner Kjeld Kirks Kristiansen’s realization of LEGO House. In 2021, he published The Right to Food about homeless people’s relationship with food. Jens lives in New York and as a wine enthusiast, has followed the trend of increasing enthusiasm for rosé wine with great interest.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/337.

How did Rosé get a bad reputation as not being a “real” wine? How did Marcel Ott revolutionize the world of Rosé wine? Why is Grenache a popular grape for making trendy pale Rosés? How do Rosé’s beautiful bottles both help and hurt its reputation?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Rasmus Emborg and Jens Honoré, the author and photographer, respectively, who have published Rosé Revolution.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Highlights

How did Jens and Rasmus develop a love for Rosé?

What does Rasmus find most satisfying about owning a vineyard?

Why did Jens and Rasmus want to produce their book independently?

Why did Jens choose to photograph the winemakers in black and white, using an analog camera?

What was the most challenging aspect of writing Rosé Revolution?

Why was Marcel Ott’s pioneering decision to treat Rosé as a wine in its own right so radical in 1912?

Why did Rosé have such a bad reputation?

What makes Grenache such a good grape to make Rosé?

Are there benefits to the shape of the iconic Domain Ott bottles?

What are some of the wildest bottle Rosé designs Jens found in researching Rosé Revolution?

Why does Rasmus believe we’ll see more Rosé being sold in brown bottles in the future?

What role do ultra-premium Rosés play in the market?

Beyond great quality, what factors have made Whispering Angel so successful?

Key Takeaways

Rosé wine is made from red wine grapes, and it's the skin that gives color and tannin to the wine. If you let the wine ferment with the skin, you end up with a red wine. Rosé wine was produced as an afterthought, rather than with the intention to make it. This is part of why Rosé has had a bad reputation because it's been considered a byproduct.

Marcel Ott was fascinated by Rosé wine because he thought that this was a wine that had the taste of the grapes most precisely. Marcel Ott was the first one to choose the variety of grapes that gave the best Rosé, to position the vineyards in the best possible way to make good Rosé and to choose the harvest time with the ambition to make the best possible Rosé.

Grenache is a grape with thin skins and very little pigment so it brings little color to the wine. This is the kind of Rosé wine that is the most trendy these years. It’s pale, dry, crisp wine, what we call the Provence style. But also, Grenache has this natural sweetness that applies well to the Rosé wine category as well.

Rosé, with its beautiful colour in a transparent, creatively designed bottle, looks great on the shelves in the liquor store. It looks good on Instagram. And I think this is a part of the popularity of Rosé. At the same time, it's also a reason why the bad reputation of Rosé wine remains with some of the wine establishment. At the same time, it’s much easier to recycle brown glass than clear glass.

About Rasmus Emborg & Jens Honoré

Rasmus Emborg is a journalist who has worked in the media industry for over 25 years. He is the author of Beer Brothers (2019), about twin beer brewers Mikkel Borg-Bjergsø and Jeppe Jarnit-Bjergsø. He and his wife own a small vineyard in Provence. The grapes are mainly used for rosé wine, and the production takes place at a local cooperative.

Jens Honoré is a photographer who has worked in the advertising industry for 30 years. In 2018, he published A Place to Dream for SOS Children’s Villages, and in partnership with Jens Vilstrup, he published the book, Farewell to a Black/White World about the UN’s 2015 Sustainable Development Goals. He has also contributed to Building a Dream about LEGO owner Kjeld Kirks Kristiansen’s realization of LEGO House. In 2021, he published The Right to Food about homeless people’s relationship with food. Jens lives in New York and as a wine enthusiast, has followed the trend of increasing enthusiasm for rosé wine with great interest.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/336.

Why are major Champagne houses, like Taittinger and Pommery, spending millions of dollars to buy and plant vineyards in England? How did Brexit reshape the English wine industry, from barrels to picking grapes? Why does visiting the English wine country feel like uncovering a hidden secret?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Henry Jeffreys, author of Vines in a Cold Climate.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of his terrific book, Vines in a Cold Climate. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

Is England's greatest wine yet to be discovered?

What makes Peter Hall of Breaky Bottom such a memorable and inspirational person?

What is it like to visit English wine regions as a tourist?

How can you make the most out of a trip to London as a wine lover?

What was the most surprising historical tidbit about English wine that Henry uncovered while researching?

Which significant milestones have signalled the improved quality of English wine in the past 20 years?

What makes English winemakers different from those from other regions?

If English wine is such a precarious venture, why have champagne houses like Tattinger and Pommery chosen to plant in England?

How did Brexit impact English winemakers?

What’s the biggest risk to the English wine industry?

Key Takeaways

Henry observes that Champagne is warming up and the concern is that eventually the grapes might not have enough acidity, so they're hedging their bets. He also thinks they are entrepreneurial. If you could bring your expertise and get it to work and make a great, great wine - which is what they're interested in - then, why not?

Brexit had a big impact on the English wine industry. There was a hell of a lot of upheaval, but I think generally the industry has adjusted and worked out how they can bring things in. The cost, obviously, has gone into the wines, and we probably have to pay more. But I think all the problems have already been dealt with. It's all kind of factored in.

Southern England, especially in the spring and summer, Henry says, is breathtakingly beautiful in a way that no other country is. There are beautiful little villages and hills and churches. It can be quite incongruous sometimes seeing the vines, especially if on a cold day when you’d expect to see horses and apple trees. Wine tourism is quite in its infancy at the moment, but it’s coming on strongly. A lot of wineries have realized that you can sell tourists wine without anyone taking a cut. So they’re beginning to take it a lot more seriously… have restaurants on site, really good tour guides. The potential is massive because most of the vineyards are within an hour and a half of London.

About Henry Jeffreys

Henry Jeffreys worked in the wine trade and publishing before becoming a writer. He’s a contributor to Good Food, The Guardian, Harpers Wine & Spirit, and The Spectator, wine columnist for The Critic magazine, and has appeared on radio, TV, and The Rest is History podcast. He won Fortnum & Mason Drink Writer of the Year in 2022 and is the author of four books, including Empire of Booze and Vines in a Cold Climate, which was shortlisted for the James Beard awards and won Fortnum & Mason drink book of the year. Along with Tom Parker Bowles, he hosts the Intoxicating History podcast. He lives in Faversham, Kent, with his wife and two daughters.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/335.

Is chalky soil really the secret to great English wine—or just clever marketing? What makes it so difficult for English wine to break into the North American market? Is it time for a classified system of English wine?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Henry Jeffreys, author of the award-winning book Vines in a Cold Climate.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of his terrific book, Vines in a Cold Climate. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

How did Henry become a wine critic for The Lady, a women's magazine?

What was it light to interview wine pioneer Stuart Moss?

How did Henry’s skepticism about biodynamics nearly cause a problem with Gérard Bertrand?

What inspired Henry to write Empire of Booze?

What was the most surprising thing Henry learned while researching the book?

How did Henry’s first experience of English wine go?

What unusual vineyard experience totally changed his perception?

How much wine does England produce?

Where are the main wine regions in England?

Are the benefits of the chalky soils in certain parts of England overrated?

Is it time for a classified system of English wine?

Key Takeaways

We always hear about the chalk or the White Cliffs of Dover. Do you think that has an influence or is it overrated? Henry thinks it is overrated and it was the story that sold. It was a good marketing angle, and they thought that it was the best place. He thinks almost everything else is more important than whether it's chalk or clay, and once you've got everything else right, then you can argue about that.

Henry observes that selling to Canada and the US is quite complicated. If you sell to Japan, you can get just one person to import it. Whereas in North America you have complicated systems by state and province. You need somebody on the ground selling. Plus, Nova Scotia makes a similar style of sparkling wines. California has some pretty good sparkling wines. And then once the English bubblies land in the market, the price is pretty much the same as Champagne. Why would you unless you wanted something quite unusual, right?

Henry says that there is now a PDO, or Protected Designation of Origin, a European geographical indication for one county, which is Sussex. But it's really too early for it, because they've only been making quality wine there for 30 years. The appellation contrôlée is, ideally, codifying hundreds of years of tradition. Plus, a lot of producers buy from different counties. So Nyetimber will have vineyards in Kent and Sussex and Hampshire. So that makes a nonsense of it. And also, there's sort of bits of Sussex that are very much like Kent, so you so there's no point drawing a line where the old county barrier is. It's like, it'd be like, sort of cutting the Médoc in half. It doesn't really make any sense. I think the only place where it makes sense is Essex, because you've got the soil.

About Henry Jeffreys

Henry Jeffreys worked in the wine trade and publishing before becoming a writer. He’s a contributor to Good Food, The Guardian, Harpers Wine & Spirit, and The Spectator, wine columnist for The Critic magazine, and has appeared on radio, TV, and The Rest is History podcast. He won Fortnum & Mason Drink Writer of the Year in 2022 and is the author of four books, including Empire of Booze and Vines in a Cold Climate, which was shortlisted for the James Beard awards and won Fortnum & Mason drink book of the year. Along with Tom Parker Bowles, he hosts the Intoxicating History podcast. He lives in Faversham, Kent, with his wife and two daughters.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/334.

How can a vineyard disaster become an unexpected opportunity to innovate? How does storytelling transform wine marketing? What innovative pairings go beyond red wine and red meat?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sally Evans, author of the new memoir, Make The Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after Fifty.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of her terrific new memoir, Make The Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after Fifty. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

Are you ever too old to start over?

How do we build resilience as we get older?

How did Sally’s harsh initiation with the 2017 frost in Bordeaux shape her approach to winemaking?

Why did Sally decide not to pursue organic certification?

How did it feel to present Sally’s first wine in 2018 at Bordeaux's En Primeur?

Which aspects of the story does Sally hope critics understand beyond what's in the glass?

Beyond scores and medals, what forms of recognition have been most meaningful to Sally as a winemaker?

What was it like to be sworn into the Confrérie des Gentilshommes de Fronsac?

What was the steepest learning curve in selling a physical product like wine?

How has Sally found creative ways to market and sell Château George 7?

Why should you incorporate storytelling in marketing wine?

How did Sally pivot to minimize the negative impact of COVID on the winery?

What are some unusual pairings between vegetarian dishes and red wines?

How do you know when it's time to move on from something you've built?

What goals would Sally like to accomplish before selling the winery?

Key Takeaways

As Sally shares, she was still living in the southeast of France when the previous owner of her vineyard rang to tell her that the frost had destroyed everything. While now we have barrel rooms and we have thermoregulation, we made a decent wine and that proved the process. That was a good example of how in midlife we can look at something that looks really bad, something that's happened, and actually turn around and make something good out of it.

Sally says that when she hosts wine tastings, she always talks about the occasions when they're going to drink the wine: I think there's one thing in marketing where you profile the customer but I think with wine, often it's around the occasion and what you're eating and who's over and so on. That's how we drink wine. We drink it for occasions.

Sally observes that when we look at the back of most red wine bottles, especially from Bordeaux, it says drink with red meat: I thought, well, that's not really helpful. I have a very close friend, Wendy Narby, she and I sat down and said, red wine goes fabulously with veggie dishes and so we've done it as a passion project where we talk about how to pair plant-based food with different Bordeaux wines.

About Sally Evans

After an international corporate career based in Paris and the South of France, Sally Evans completely changed her life in her fifties. She created an independent winery in Bordeaux, completely on her own with no prior experience or knowledge of wine. She threw herself into wine studies, bought a parcel of mature vines with some dilapidated buildings and created a brand-new wine chateau. She now has a boutique winery, Château George 7, in Fronsac on the right bank of Bordeaux. Her wines win high critical acclaim from leading wine critics and publications and are listed in Michelin-starred restaurants and top venues across Europe and the US. Sally has also created a wine tourism destination for tastings and events, winning accolades for its exceptional wine experience. Alongside wine, her other passion is supporting women to follow their dreams.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/333.

What’s one of the most challenging aspects of being a new winemaker in Bordeaux, especially if you’re a middle-aged foreigner who is making wine for the first time? How did the Bordeaux sub-region of Fronsac lose its fame after being a region favoured by French royalty? What if the only thing holding you back from a fresh start, a new project or a major life change is you?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sally Evans, author of the new memoir, Make The Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after Fifty.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of her terrific new memoir, Make The Midlife Move: A Practical Guide to Flourish after Fifty. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

Which pivotal moment sparked Sally’s interest in learning more about wine?

What was Sally’s career before wine?

Why did she decide to transition into a wine career at 52?

How is Make The Midlife Move different from other books of the genre?

What was the most surprising insight Sally discovered while writing her book?

What was the most challenging part of writing Make The Midlife Move?

Where is Bordeaux, and specifically Fronsac, geographically located?

Why has Fronsac often been overlooked in favour of more well-known regions?

What made Sally choose Fronsac when deciding to start winemaking?

What’s the story behind Sally’s winery’s name, Château George 7?

How did Sally overcome the issue of magnum bottles with no capsules to fit?

What was Sally’s most humbling moment in her winemaking career?

Which unexpected challenges does Sally wish someone had warned her about in the early days?

Why did Sally decide to expand into making white wine?

What can you do to manage feelings of impostor syndrome?

Key Takeaways

What’s one of the most challenging aspects of being a new winemaker in Bordeaux, especially if you’re a middle-aged foreigner who is making wine for the first time?

Sally notes that she didn’t realize just how much bureaucracy there was in France with the customs system and appellation rules around winemaking. There's a lot of rules which are good, but, there were so many rules. She also didn't really think through how long it takes to make a wine. So it's quite a long time that you're financing everything before you can actually start earning money.

How did the Bordeaux sub-region of Fronsac lose its fame after being a region favoured by French royalty?

Fronsac had the first wines that were produced and went up to the Royal Court of Versailles, but as time went by, areas like Saint-Émilion overtook Fronsac in terms of notoriety. When the climate was a little bit cooler as well, some of the wines tended to be a little bit more rustic, maybe not quite as ripe or as elegant as they could be.

About Sally Evans

After an international corporate career based in Paris and the South of France, Sally Evans completely changed her life in her fifties. She created an independent winery in Bordeaux, completely on her own with no prior experience or knowledge of wine. She threw herself into wine studies, bought a parcel of mature vines with some dilapidated buildings and created a brand-new wine chateau. She now has a boutique winery, Château George 7, in Fronsac on the right bank of Bordeaux. Her wines win high critical acclaim from leading wine critics and publications and are listed in Michelin-starred restaurants and top venues across Europe and the US. Sally has also created a wine tourism destination for tastings and events, winning accolades for its exceptional wine experience. Alongside wine, her other passion is supporting women to follow their dreams.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/332.

How does oak aging change wine and whisky flavour, colour and texture? What do glass, gears, and automatons have to do with the invention of distillation? Why is yeast such an essential tool in scientific research and wine production, especially in the face of climate change?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Adam Rogers, author of the New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

One of you is going to win a copy of his terrific new book, Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What are some of the traits that new yeasts are being developed for?

Why does sugar deserve the title of most important molecule in the world?

How is human saliva used in the production of Chicha, one of the oldest types of alcoholic beverage?

What is microbial terroir and how does it affect the flavour profile of fermented drinks?

Why does Adam describe distillation as the apotheosis of human life on Earth?

How does the process of distillation work?

What is the most important thing we can learn from the alchemists?

Is the shape of a distillation still important to the process?

What's happening to spirits while they’re aging in barrels?

Have there been successful innovations to age wine and spirits more quickly?

Why do some people lose their sense of smell after a concussion?

Key Takeaways

When you're drinking whisky, and it's that beautiful amber color, that's all from the wood. It's completely clear when it goes into a barrel and it's brown when it comes out. So color is part of what changes, and all those flavours. In the process of aging, as the temperature goes up and down, the pores in the wood open and close. As they open, the liquid gets drawn into that layer inside of the wood, and then gets pushed back out. So there's this kind of back-and-forth process, which is why so many of the experimental attempts to accelerate the aging process use heat to try to cycle it faster.

Distillation was developed in the first two to 300 years of the Common Era. People were starting to transform naturally occurring phenomena into a technology that could exist in a temple or in the home. Distillation is one of those technologies, along with a lot of automatons and the simple machines, gears, screws and the steam engines.

Yeasts are a workhorse organism in laboratories because it’s very easy to change their traits and genetics. They share DNA with each other, and when they grow, they mutate very quickly. Generation to generation change. So you can use classic animal or microbial husbandry techniques to change them as well. This can become especially important as climate change changes the regions that are important to wine.

About Adam Rogers

Adam Rogers is a senior correspondent at Business Insider, where he writes about technology, culture, and the ways they overlap. Prior to joining BI, Adam was a longtime editor and writer at WIRED, where his article “The Science of Why No One Agrees on the Color of This Dress” was the second-most-read thing on the entire internet in 2015.

Adam’s WIRED feature story on a mysterious fungus that grows on whisky warehouses won a AAAS/Kavli science journalism award — and led to his 2014 New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze. Adam is also the author of the 2021 book Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. He has also written for Alta, the Atlantic, National Geographic, the New York Times, Slate, and Smithsonian, and may be the only journalist to attend both San Diego Comic-Con and the White House Correspondents Dinner.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/331.

How does language about wine impact the way we experience and enjoy wine? How does reporting on alcohol science compare to other scientific topics? Why can yeast be described as a nano-technological machine?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Adam Rogers, author of the New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

One of you is going to win a copy of his terrific new book, Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose one person randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What was Adam’s experience at a fancy restaurant in Chicago where food critic Jeffrey Steingarten was a fellow patron?

How did a New York restaurant experience expose Adam to the wild science of winemaking?

Why did Adam nearly have an existential moment while writing about the science of grapes?

How does reporting on alcohol science compare to other scientific topics?

Which moments did Adam want to capture in the book?

What were the most surprising insights Adam uncovered while writing Proof and what was the most difficult part of writing it?

Why does Adam describe yeast as a nano-technological machine?

Which facts about yeast did Adam find fascinating?

What have archaeologists discovered about the role of alcohol in early human civilization?

Which cultural approach to alcohol consumption did Adam find most interesting?

How do modern brewers and distillers safeguard their yeast?

Key Takeaways

Adam recounts the story of the couple sitting next to him ordering a dessert wine. The diner asked, “Is that a Vin du Glacier or a noble rot?” The two different ways to make a sweet wine. Just the fact that the diner was informed enough to know that there were these two methods would have a bearing on what he would be tasting. Here was this person operationalizing that interest to make his meal better. He wanted to have more fun.

If you're reporting on science, you have the scientists trying to understand something new or reinterpret understanding and then there are people who that's going to affect. With winemaking, you have practitioners who are often not themselves, scientists. So they are craftspeople in a stakeholder role too.

Louis Pasteur said I think there is an impossibly small, invisible, living creature that eats sugar and poops alcohol, and so the best chemists in the world at that time looked at that as a hypothesis and said, You're nuts. Nobody knew how inert chemicals could be alive. Nobody knew what the connection was. Those things are enzymes and understanding what enzymes do in a living body, that's what gave rise to biochemistry, and ultimately gave rise to biotechnology. That one insight.

About Adam Rogers

Adam Rogers is a senior correspondent at Business Insider, where he writes about technology, culture, and the ways they overlap. Prior to joining BI, Adam was a longtime editor and writer at WIRED, where his article “The Science of Why No One Agrees on the Color of This Dress” was the second-most-read thing on the entire internet in 2015.

Adam’s WIRED feature story on a mysterious fungus that grows on whisky warehouses won a AAAS/Kavli science journalism award — and led to his 2014 New York Times bestseller Proof: The Science of Booze. Adam is also the author of the 2021 book Full Spectrum: How the Science of Color Made Us Modern. He has also written for Alta, the Atlantic, National Geographic, the New York Times, Slate, and Smithsonian, and may be the only journalist to attend both San Diego Comic-Con and the White House Correspondents Dinner.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/330.