Why is Serra Gaúcha the best place to start exploring Brazilian wine and what does this stunning region look like if you want to visit? Which grape varieties thrive in Brazil and have any unique varieties been successful? What's happening with wine culture in Brazil?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Tufi Meyer, author of the terrific new book, Wines of Brazil. You don’t need to have listened to part one from last week first, but if you missed it, go back and have a listen after you finish this one.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of Tufi Neder Meyer's terrific book, Wines of Brazil. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What’s the story behind Casa Verrone's "Purple Cow” and what was the tasting experience like?

How does Brazilian wine law define noble wine?

Which types of Brazilian wood are being used for barrel aging and how do they impact the wines?

What are the most successful grape varieties that are native to Brazil?

What’s happening with wine culture in Brazil?

What does it mean for a wine to have a foxy aroma?

Does Brazil produce dessert wines?

What do you need to know about the Serra Gaúcha wine region?

Which cities and wine regions should you visit on a trip to Brazil?

How have heavy taxation and bureaucracy impacted the development of the Brazilian wine industry?

What is the one message Tufi would like to share with international wine lovers about Brazilian wines?

What does Tufi see for the future of the Brazilian wine industry?

Who would Tufi like to be able to share a bottle of wine with?

Key Takeaways

Serra Gaucha is a hilly, almost mountainous region, north of the capital of Rio Grande do Sul, a state in the south. It has a long tradition of winemaking and it's a very beautiful region with a very well-developed tourist structure. It's certainly the first region in Brazil where you should go when you start to get to know our wines. Almost every winery has a tasting room, and they are open to visitors. Good restaurants, good hotels, good towns to see. And it's not far from the state capital.

In Brazil, like in Argentina, the United States, Canada or Chile, European grapes are the most successful - Chardonnay, Sauvignon Blanc, Pinot Noir, Syrah, Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc - and these are the most successful grapes so far. But we also make our Vinifera wines, varieties developed here in Brazil. The most successful so far is Lorena, which you will not find anywhere else. We have developed a crossing. It's a white grape, very aromatic, Muscat-like or reminds us of Gewurztraminer. It's very successful, growing in popularity. Brazil has tried to develop some exclusive red grapes, but so far, not with very good results. So you won't find red grapes that are equivalent to Lorena, for instance. We must content ourselves with grapes from other countries, but we have a lot of them.

The wine consumption in Brazil is growing, although we would like to be faster. I presume this is because wine is fashionable, wine is very good with food, and people are curious about wine. Wine education is progressing. All this may explain this situation, and our national wine industry is growing too.

About Tufi Neder Meyer

Tufi Neder Meyer, a graduate of UFMG Medical School with a PhD in surgery, has studied wines since before college and has been a wine educator since the 1990s. He lives and works in Brazil’s south-east, teaching at The Wine School Brazil (WSET approved). Tufi authored ‘Wines of Brazil’, a part of the Classic Wine Library of L’Académie du Vin.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/355.

Why are the sparkling wines the most successful wines? What is it about the wines of Brazil, the terroir, that really makes them excel? How does double pruning and winter harvesting help Brazilian vineyards produce higher-quality wines? How did family farming traditions shape Brazil’s wine regions, and what is the crossover between coffee and grape cultivation?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Tufi Meyer, author of the new book Wines of Brazil.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of Tufi Neder Meyer's terrific book, Wines of Brazil. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

Where did Tufi’s love for wine come from?

Why do red sparkling wines from southern Brazil pair so well with the traditional dish feijoada?

Which characteristics make Brazilian sparkling wines particularly successful compared to other wine styles?

What’s the biggest misconception about Brazilian wine?

How does Brazil’s annual wine production compare to other South American producers?

Why hasn't Brazil’s wine industry developed as large as those of Argentina and Chile?

How did Portuguese colonial policies impact the development of Brazil’s wine industry?

How does Brazil’s size and climate diversity influence viticulture?

How has the legacy of land ownership and agricultural practices from the coffee industry shaped modern Brazilian viticulture?

Is there any crossover between the coffee and wine industries?

How do the different types of viticulture practiced in Brazil differ?

What is unique about tropical viticulture in Brazil?

Why do some Syrah wines from Brazil resemble those from the northern Rhône in France more than Australian Shiraz?

What challenges do Brazilian vineyards face due to the humid climate in certain regions?

Key Takeaways

Brazil has all sorts of sparkling wines, from traditional method, made like champagne to sweet, made from Muscat in zesty fashion, passing through tank methods, sparklers. But all of them have a very important character. It's fruit ripeness. Fruit is forward in Brazilian wines. Maybe elegant sometimes, or very well declared at other times, but it's easy to perceive and it's easy to like it. There's a fresh character to our sparklers.

If you plant vines in Brazil in places where it is too humid and too warm at that harvest time, you won't get good quality grapes. But if this place has a winter which is not too cold, which has sunny days and cool nights, if you've succeeded in having the harvest during such a time, you have good grapes. That's precisely what double pruning makes. You prune in January, you start a new growth cycle, and the vines will be ripened during our winter. So the winter harvesting. Dry time, sunny days, cool nights.

When the Italian immigrants arrived, they were given pieces of land. That's what is today Serra Gaúcha, our main wine-producing region. The relations between coffee and wine have started very much more recently, when double pruning and winter harvest developed here in a coffee region. And today the vines are planted in the same places where coffee does well. In slopes with little risk of frosts, better drain the terrain and many times together, side by side, grapes and coffee groves.

About Tufi Neder Meyer

Tufi Neder Meyer, a graduate of UFMG Medical School with a PhD in surgery, has studied wines since before college and has been a wine educator since the 1990s. He lives and works in Brazil’s south-east, teaching at The Wine School Brazil (WSET approved). Tufi authored ‘Wines of Brazil’, a part of the Classic Wine Library of L’Académie du Vin.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/354.

How can vines for wine thrive in Mount Etna’s rocky, volcanic soils on the island of Sicily? Mount Etna is a perpetual baby in terms of its vineyard soils; constant rejuvenation of the soil through ash and lava impacts the vine's health and the resulting grape characteristics. The lava flows are centuries old and vary widely. So, how would a producer choose one flow over another for planting? How does Mount Etna still have pre-phylloxera vines that are over 200 years old?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Ben Spencer, the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Highlights

Why did Ben find Fabio Costantino of Terra Costantino such a fascinating and emblematic person from Etna’s wine community?

What is the landscape of Mount Etna like, and what makes it unique and beautiful?

How do producers on Etna choose which lava flow to plant on?

What does it look like to grow grapes in a place as fertile as on Etna?

How do Etna wines compare with other volcanic wines?

Are field blends of different grape varieties still common in Etna’s vineyards?

How does Nerello Mascalese compare to Pinot Noir grapes?

Why is Nerello Cappuccio mostly used in blends rather than as a single varietal wine?

How does Carricante, Etna’s signature white grape, develop the kerosene or petrol aroma often found in aged Riesling?

What were some of the oldest vines Ben has seen on Mount Etna?

How can you get the most out of a trip to Etna?

Who would Ben love to share a bottle of wine with?

Key Takeaways

How can vines for wine thrive in Mount Etna’s rocky, volcanic soils on the island of Sicily?

It's very, very fertile and you can plant just about anything. The vines are only part of that biodiversity. You can put a grafted vine selection, masala, cutting from your own vineyard into the earth. What it taps into will sort of define what that vine will be. We see 95% of the vines take because the soil is so fertile.

Mount Etna's lava flows are centuries old and vary widely. How would a producer choose one flow over another for planting?

Sometimes it's a simple budgetary decision or a farming decision, whether to take over an old vine vineyard or to buy something and replant new vines, whether you want to face the contours of the mountain, or if you want to ease into it with tractor or some sort of mechanized labor, not that many producers do much more than use a tractor in the vineyard, it's very difficult to use heavy machinery on it, and everybody harvests by hand. But certain contrada, certain lava flows, the age of the soil, the slope, east, north, south, they have different flavors. They have different spices, and it's all that lasagna layering of the mountain. It has its own style.

How does Mount Etna still have pre-phylloxera vines that are over 200 years old?

On Etna, we don't have a lot of clay. So we do have these very, very old vines. The soils need about 3% clay to incubate phylloxera over the winter. And so the soil isn't old enough to have that much clay in it. There's also the snow up at elevation, so it's just inhospitable to the louse. But the oldest vines that I've seen are either Nerello Mascalese or possibly Minnella. The trunks can get really, really big. They can get really long. They look like they're prehistoric.

About Benjamin Spencer

Benjamin Spencer is the Director of Etna Wine School and the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna. In addition to holding a Diploma from the London-based Wine & Spirit Education Trust, Ben is a journalist, wine judge, and a professional winemaker with two decades of experience working with artisan and internationally traded wine brands in California and Italy.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/353.

How do elevation and slope influence the style of volcanic wines of Mount Etna? What can volcanic wine made on Mount Etna in Sicily teach us about life? How is Mount Etna’s wine scene evolving?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Ben Spencer, the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Highlights

Which aspects of Ben’s first trip to Sicily in 2007 left a lasting impression?

What stood out about Ben’s first experience tasting Etna wine in Sicily?

Which early experience exploring Etna’s vineyards fundamentally changed Ben’s understanding of the region and its wines?

What do the wines of Etna show us about the relationship between winemaking and life?

What are the biggest differences between winemaking in California and Etna, outside of terroir?

What does the future look like for Etna wine?

Are there limitations to the Etna DOC classification and what is the viable elevation range for vineyards?

How do the wine characteristics vary between vines grown in different areas of the mountain?

How do the periodic eruptions affect the soil in the vineyards on the slopes of Mount Etna?

What was Ben’s vision for the Etna Wine School and which programs are now available?

How did Ben’s poetry background influence his transition into wine writing?

What can you expect from reading The New Wines of Mount Etna?

What was the most surprising thing Ben discovered while writing The New Wines of Mount Etna?

Why was researching the book particularly challenging for Ben?

Key Takeaways

How do elevation and slope influence the style of volcanic wines of Mount Etna? At lower elevations, we're seeing more ripeness, earlier ripening, more boldness in the fruit. You see more opulent wines at lower elevations. Also, on the south slope, you're getting more development in the growing season because of the way the sun passes from the east along the south slope. The North Slope, we see a little bit more deflected light, especially in the shoulder seasons, so early spring and fall, and so you're getting more elegance.

What can volcanic wine made on Mount Etna in Sicily teach us about life? To be patient, to watch, to listen, to learn from what's happening here, and to learn from everybody, because everybody has a different take on what's happening. Etna always moves outside of what we expect it to be. In the glass, we see a white wine, but all of a sudden there's white jasmine and orange flower together in the same field, and there's this juicy fruit and salinity and savory herbs and saltiness, and you get some repeated elements.

How is Mount Etna’s wine scene evolving? With Etna being at the beginning of a new wave of production, we are seeing a lot of people trying to define what that is, what Etna can be and will be. It'll be a study of the different elevations, of the different soil types, of the different districts where the wines are being made. But also Etna is a 10,000 foot tall cone. So there's a lot of different aspects to mountain wind, to sunlight, to the sea breezes, to old soils, young soils, and so there's a lot of things happening. So I think Etna will become a benchmark for variety, for exciting wines made from Carricante, the white grape variety here, and also Nerello mascalese, the red grape, which is made into sparkling wines, Rosés and red wines quite successfully.

About Benjamin Spencer

Benjamin Spencer is the Director of Etna Wine School and the award-winning author of The New Wines of Mount Etna. In addition to holding a Diploma from the London-based Wine & Spirit Education Trust, Ben is a journalist, wine judge, and a professional winemaker with two decades of experience working with artisan and internationally traded wine brands in California and Italy.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/352.

Why can’t we smell sweetness in sparkling wine? How much of what we “taste” in wine is influenced by its appearance and our expectations? What makes copper both a savior and a threat to viticulture?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sunny Hodge, author of the terrific new book, The Cynic's Guide to Wine.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of Sunny Hodge’s terrific new book, The Cynic's Guide to Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

Why is it important to look beyond wine characteristics and consider?

How does The Cynic's Guide to Wine aim to challenge the way we talk about wine?

Can fossilized oysters in vineyard soil really impart marine characteristics on the wine?

Why should food and wine lovers know the story of Fitz Haber?

What makes copper both a savior and a threat to viticulture?

Why should we move away from the focus on wine flavours and instead use descriptors of what it truly offers?

Where does the buttery flavour in wine come from?

How does cork taint affect wine as well as our sense of smell and perception?

Why do vines grown in cooler temperatures have more black pepper notes?

How much of what we “taste” in wine is influenced by its appearance and our expectations?

Why can’t we smell sweetness in wine?

Could sniffing slower change which aromas you detect in a wine?

Why are humans more sensitive to bitter tastes versus sweet?

How does adding ice to whiskey open up its aromas?

Key Takeaways

The little CO₂ bubbles in sparkling wine dissolve in your saliva and form a physical barrier between certain molecules hitting your tongue and your ability to taste certain things. Sweetness, is the first thing that’ll get blocked out. So, if you have a sparkling wine that has some sweetness, as your saliva builds up with bubbles, you won’t perceive it.

We in wine extrapolate a little bit and think, “It's a white wine,” so I may psychosomatically associate it with white peppery things, rather than a red wine, which might be black pepper. It’s actually the same sesquiterpene, called rotundone. We just trick ourselves into perceiving it one way rather than the other. This happens a lot in wine.

Copper is naturally antimicrobial and antifungal, which is why we use it in plumbing, hospitals, and as touchpads on doors. Fungal pests like downy and powdery mildew, which affect vines. We spray vines with copper base concoctions to prevent that fungus building up, which will destroy our harvests. But it's not just the heavy metal, but it when it rains, it'll hit your soils and affect earthworms and all of the things that we know to be really good for the soils, naturally. We stop our soil's ability to just look after itself. We haven't found a unified way to overcome downy and powdery mildew without the use of copper.

About Sunny Hodge

Sunny Hodge is the sole founder of Diogenes the Dog and aspen & meursault; two multi award-winning wine bars associated with challenging the status quo of wine. He is in the process of developing a wine qualification, The Science of Wine Course.

His book “The Cynic’s Guide to Wine” delves into the science behind wine from soil upwards into our perception of taste and flavour to dispel wine myths using science. He is also a member of the Circle of Wine Writers.

He is an International wine judge for IWSC awards, was recently shortlisted for the LWF Buyers Awards 2025 for both ‘On-Trade Multiple Venue Wine Buyer’ and ‘Sustainable Wine Buyer of the Year’.

Hodge is also a commentator and wine writer for the likes of Waitrose Food Magazine, Evening Standard, The Times, The Guardian, Food FM and Monocle Radio and ITV’s Love Your Weekend.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/351.

Can you really taste “minerality” in wine? What gives Champagne and traditional method wines their signature bready flavor and creamy texture? How has natural wine sparked deeper conversations about how we farm and produce food and drink?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Sunny Hodge

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Two of you are going to win a copy of Sunny Hodge’s terrific new book, The Cynic's Guide to Wine. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose two people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What is the deeper meaning behind the name of Sunny’s London wine bar, aspen & meursault?

How did Sunny’s early love of rollerskating shape his experiences growing up?

What lessons did Sunny’s mother impart that still impact his worldview today?

How did Sunny’s engineering background influence his approach to learning about wine?

Can we really smell metals and minerals?

Why was Sunny skeptical about the influence of soil on wine?

What surprised Sunny about our technical insights into wine?

How did Sunny find the balance between sharing the complex science behind wine and making it interesting to the average wine lover?

Why does Sunny believe we should be applying cynicism to the world of wine?

How do natural wines cause us to challenge the food and drink we bring to the table?

What does "funky" mean in the context of natural wines?

How does Sunny source unusual wines for his wine bars?

What is humus, and how does it influence wine character?

How do plants absorb nutrients from soil?

Key Takeaways

We can smell some geological materials like salt and some minerals, but most minerals and metals we're unable to smell and taste. And those metals that we feel that we can smell and taste, that's actually a tertiary influence of our oils reacting with those metals.Technically, metal and most other minerals except for salt, don't have smell or taste.

Yeast autolysis is the process that gives champagnes and traditional method wines their bready, yeasty, autolytic flavor. Autolysis is when a yeast thinks it's gonna die and it's pretty stressed. So as alcohol levels pick up, and your yeast knows it's going to pass away soon, its enzymes will switch on to a different mode, and this is autolysis mode. They'll start eating away at the cell membrane of the yeast, and eventually they'll make little puncture holes, and all of the insides of the yeast will end up in the liquid. So that self-detonation of yeast in stressful environments is what gives the physical texture to your wine. That's why autolytic wines have that texture and it gives you those yeasty, bready flavors.

Natural wine makes us question how we farm and how we produce all food and drink, not just wine. Wine is one that we can talk about and have a real discourse without it getting too boring. And with natural wine, those bigger topics are, how do we farm? What are the pros and cons of how we farm now, and how are we making our food and drink?

About Sunny Hodge

Sunny Hodge is the sole founder of Diogenes the Dog and aspen & meursault; two multi award-winning wine bars associated with challenging the status quo of wine. He is in the process of developing a wine qualification, The Science of Wine Course.

His book “The Cynic’s Guide to Wine” delves into the science behind wine from soil upwards into our perception of taste and flavour to dispel wine myths using science. He is also a member of the Circle of Wine Writers.

He is an International wine judge for IWSC awards, was recently shortlisted for the LWF Buyers Awards 2025 for both ‘On-Trade Multiple Venue Wine Buyer’ and ‘Sustainable Wine Buyer of the Year’.

Hodge is also a commentator and wine writer for the likes of Waitrose Food Magazine, Evening Standard, The Times, The Guardian, Food FM and Monocle Radio and ITV’s Love Your Weekend.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/350.

How does your perspective change when you start looking at life one vintage at a time, divided into seasons? What does it look like when wine is so deeply connected to a region that it shapes work, landscape, community, and what a culture values most? Why is Languedoc becoming a popular choice for organic, biodynamic, and natural winemaking? What makes a “bon moment” and why is it worth taking seriously?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Steve Hoffman, who has written an award-winning memoir called A Season for That: Lost and Found in the Other Southern France.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of Steve Hoffman's terrific new book, A Season for That: Lost and Found in the Other Southern France. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What was Steve’s favourite aperitif discovery in France?

How did a funny mispronunciation lead to an embarrassing introduction?

How did stuffed cuttlefish challenge Steve’s ideas about strong flavours and aromas in food?

How does the historical connection between wine and work show up in French culture today?

Why has the Languedoc remained in the shadow of Bordeaux and Burgundy, despite having the largest vineyard area in the world?

What surprised Steve the most about the process of blending wine?

Why does the latitude of a vineyard matter when learning about tasting wine?

How can you have the best experience while visiting the Languedoc?

Key Takeaways

How does your perspective change when you start looking at life one vintage at a time, divided into seasons?

You start thinking about the unfolding year as not months and days, but as seasons, and you look forward to the next season. And you participate fully, and then you let that season be done, and don't mourn it, because you know it's going to come around again. It forces you to be present in the moment, because it's not like, if I just wait long enough, things are going to get better.

What does it look like when wine is so deeply connected to a region that it shapes work, landscape, community, and what a culture values most?

In wine country, wine is not just a pleasant accompaniment to life; it literally forms everything. The vines themselves actually form the landscape and just becomes a part of everything. It's work, it's what creates revenue that the village can survive, but then it's also something that you have with almost every meal.

Why is Languedoc becoming a popular choice for organic, biodynamic, and natural winemaking?

It's still an affordable place to buy a hectare of vines, and so young winemakers can come in and they can afford to experiment with organic, natural or biodynamic winemaking. A lot of the chemicals to avoid spoilage - the Languedoc naturally doesn't have much of that.

What makes a “bon moment” and why is it worth taking seriously?

It's translated as a good moment, but in France, it has all kinds of other connotations. I think everybody who's listening will recognize one of those moments where you're sitting with people that you care about, where there's good wine and there's good food. That’s the centerpiece, that's the excuse to be together. But then the moment unfolds into something greater than itself.

About Steve Hoffman

Steve Hoffman is a Minnesota tax preparer and food writer. His writing has won multiple national awards, including the 2019 James Beard M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award. He has been published in Food & Wine, The Washington Post, and The Minneapolis Star Tribune, among other publications. He shares one acre on Turtle Lake, in Shoreview, Minnesota, with his wife, Mary Jo, their elderly and entitled puggle, and roughly 80,000 honeybees.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/349.

How can you create a life you don’t need a vacation from? What can we learn from the French about slowing down, savoring meals, and making conversation the heart of gatherings? What’s it like living in the “other southern France”?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Steve Hoffman, who has written an award-winning memoir called A Season for That: Lost and Found in the Other Southern France.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Giveaway

Three of you are going to win a copy of Steve Hoffman's terrific new book, A Season for That: Lost and Found in the Other Southern France. To qualify, all you have to do is email me at [email protected] and let me know that you’ve posted a review of the podcast. I’ll choose three people randomly from those who contact me. Good luck!

Highlights

What do tax preparation and writing have in common?

What inspired Steve to write about the Languedoc, which he refers to as the other Southern France?

What were the major hurdles to getting A Season for That published?

How did Steve shift from an article to a book mindset?

What helped Steve find the balance between writing beautifully and the need to move the story forward?

What important lessons did Steve learn from his editor, respected cookbook author Francis Lam?

What was it like to move across the world with two young children?

Are there insights about French parenting and family life that Steve continues to apply?

How did Steve choose the specific village he wanted to live in?

How do vulnerability and curiosity help with cultural immersion?

Key Takeaways

Steve says that we’re often sold the idea that our lives are boring and that we need relief from our lives. He believes in leading a life that doesn't require evacuation. That your life itself, if you are careful about it and a little bit intentional about it, can be the thing that you want to dive into every day.

Steve mentions Thanksgiving as one of the very few occasions where he and his family commit to slowing down and making conversation around the table, and a great meal. There was something about the French willingness to let conversation be the point and a way of passing time that was really refreshing.

Steve settled in 2012 as a family for an extended fall semester in the Languedoc region, which he refers to as the other southern France, because it is, to some extent, the poor cousin of what most people think of as southern France, primarily Provence and the Côte d'Azur, the Riviera, which was extensively touristed and a lot of money got brought into that region. Peter Mayle, Princess Grace, and F. Scott Fitzgerald made it a wealthy playground. Languedoc is the portion of Mediterranean France to the west of the Rhone. So the Rhone divides the country in two, east of the Rhone is Provence, and the Riviera west of the Rhone is Languedoc and eventually Roussillon. He had the kinds of experiences he had because they weren't in the grips of a tourist haven.

About Steve Hoffman

Steve Hoffman is a Minnesota tax preparer and food writer. His writing has won multiple national awards, including the 2019 James Beard M.F.K. Fisher Distinguished Writing Award. He has been published in Food & Wine, The Washington Post, and The Minneapolis Star Tribune, among other publications. He shares one acre on Turtle Lake, in Shoreview, Minnesota, with his wife, Mary Jo, their elderly and entitled puggle, and roughly 80,000 honeybees.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/348.

How does music, even types you dislike, make wine more enjoyable? Can curated playlists in tasting rooms and wine bars influence how customers drink, eat, and experience wine? What happens when you stop overthinking wine and music and just enjoy?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Susan Lin, a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Highlights

How does a low-pitched, slow-tempo musical piece impact the perceived fruitiness of wine?

What does "timbre" mean in musical terms?

How do different musical characteristics influence the perception of wine's effervescence?

Did the participants’ music preferences correlate with their enjoyment of the wine?

What might surprise you about how the wines tasted in silence compared?

Why does the influence of sound on our perception tend to go unnoticed?

How are some winemakers using music in their wineries?

Are there retail applications for Susan’s research into the influence of music on the perception of wine?

What would be Susan's ideal live concert and wine pairing scenario?

What are some of the possibilities in the future for AI-generated music for wine experiences?

Is there an interest in similar research on the intersection between dance and wine perception?

What future research areas is Susan considering in terms of music and wine perception?

What three objects would Susan display in a museum representing her life and passions?

If Susan could share a wine with anyone outside the wine industry, who would it be and why?

How can you start being more intentional about exploring sensory experiences with wine and music?

Key Takeaways

How does music, even types you dislike, make wine more enjoyable?

Susan says that in her experiments, the wine that was consistently the worst, least balanced, was the wine tasted without music. Even if somebody said I really didn't like this music, it was a way better wine to them than without music. Even for the wine experts, the wines were much more palatable without music. I think that's why sound can be a very, very powerful thing.

Can curated playlists in tasting rooms and wine bars influence how customers drink, eat, and experience wine?

Susan has worked with tasting rooms and wine bars to curate their playlists in terms of the experiences that they want their customers to have. You want to have people be a little more relaxed in the morning, but then, you start amping it up for the evening. I put together a complete journey, that sort of sonic seasoning for different expressions of their wines, for big bold red versus for their light, youthful white wines.

What happens when you stop overthinking wine and music and just enjoy?

Susan says that with the melding of music and wine, there's still so much to learn. Keep trying things. Don't worry about whether it's right or wrong. Just enjoy the experience. Let everything come in sensorially and enjoy that and embrace again the mystery of things. We can't explain everything through data, and that's a good thing.

About Susan R. Lin

Susan R. Lin is a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology. Susan’s MW research paper ‘Influences of Classical Music on the Sensory Perception of a Brut Non-Vintage Champagne’ and subsequent work on the interaction of music and wine have been featured in Decanter, Food & Wine, GuildSomm, and others. Each of Susan’s creations is rooted in academic research and inspired by a deep respect for the essence of wine and music.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/347.

Why might a symphony night pair just as well with your wine as a heavy metal ballad? What is “sonic seasoning” and how can music impact the way we experience the taste of wine? How are sensory experiences like music, taste, and atmosphere all connected?

In this episode of the Unreserved Wine Talk podcast, I'm chatting with Susan Lin, a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology.

You can find the wines we discussed at https://www.nataliemaclean.com/winepicks

Highlights

What did Susan's grandfather teach her about fine beverages and hospitality?

How did playing piano in hotels as a child shape Susan's perspective on the holistic nature of our sensory experiences?

Is there a connection between Susan's backgrounds in tech, music, and wine?

When did Susan decide she wanted to dive deeper into the intersection between music and wine?

What makes a wine "musical"?

How do cross-modal correspondences impact wine tasting?

Why was Brut Non-Vintage Champagne Susan’s choice for her research paper?

What is "sonic seasoning" in the context of wine and music?

What was Susan's most memorable wine and music pairing event?

What might surprise you about the intersection between classical music and heavy metal?

How did Susan set up her experiment to observe how music affected participants' perceptions of the wine they were tasting?

Key Takeaways

Susan says she was always encouraging a Bach goth night at the symphony to bring people together. I like to say, whether my Brahms is your Metallica or vice versa, music can make such a difference in what you're feeling. Hence, if you got a glass of wine, what you're tasting in that glass, right? I've actually done a few experiments with heavy metal. People feel a lot of things, and there are ballads in metal. It's not just your typical really assertive sound all the time. It can be really soulful too and I noticed a lot of use of medieval melodies and folk songs in the ballads that are really nice. So not too far of a distance between Brahms and Metallica in that sense.

Susan explains that if you're listening to something that might add a little bit of pizzazz here or there to your wine, like seasoning can do. It's more of a fun term, not a scientific term. All classical composers experienced all the emotions and all the feelings that we all do and it comes through in their music. Maybe they can be feeling joyful or melancholy or longing or frustrated or upset, and everything in between. So the nature of the seasoning is that it can run in many, many different ways.

Susan observed during her performances how moods of the guests changed depending on what she played. Everything in the sensory world, all of our experiences, are really taken in holistically, right? It's not like, oh, we're just listening to this one thing and that's isolated. Oh, and we're tasting this one thing, we're smelling this one thing, and we're seeing something. It's all together. I knew that it was something special, and knew that it was something that I wanted to learn more about, or just somehow be a part of. And playing the piano in those situations actually was a great way for me to be a part of it.

About Susan R. Lin

Susan R. Lin is a Master of Wine and a Master of Fine Arts in Classical Piano and Musicology. Susan’s MW research paper ‘Influences of Classical Music on the Sensory Perception of a Brut Non-Vintage Champagne’ and subsequent work on the interaction of music and wine have been featured in Decanter, Food & Wine, GuildSomm, and others. Each of Susan’s creations is rooted in academic research and inspired by a deep respect for the essence of wine and music.

To learn more, visit https://www.nataliemaclean.com/346.