In this conversation, Amy Fritz and Matt Alexander discuss the mission of the Kineo Center, which provides resources and support for pastors experiencing burnout. They explore the complexities of burnout, including its causes and the importance of preventative care. Matt shares personal experiences with burnout and highlights the significance of community support and healthy leadership in ministry. The discussion also touches on the need for sabbaticals and the journey of renewal for pastors, emphasizing the importance of self-care and discernment in leadership roles.

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Some topics covered:

Introduction to Kineo Center and Its Mission Personal Experiences with Burnout in Ministry The Spectrum of Burnout and Support Needs Causes of Burnout in Ministry Four Key Components of Burnout The Role of Expectations in Burnout Navigating Vocational Disappointment The Importance of Sabbaticals Loneliness and Relational Injuries in Ministry Supporting Pastors: Practical Strategies Authenticity in Healing and Accountability

Featured Guest

• Matt Alexander, Director of Kineo Center

Resources mentioned

• Kineo Center The KINEO Center | Renew the Soul of Your Leadership Today

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In this conversation, Dr. Alan Godwin discusses his book 'Ties That Blind,' exploring the themes of individual and collective deception, cognitive dissonance, and the importance of attachment and identity in relationships. He shares personal experiences and insights from his practice as a psychologist, emphasizing the need for humility and compassion in understanding the complexities of human behavior and belief systems. The discussion also touches on the role of the church in fostering community and justice, and the challenges of navigating relationships with differing beliefs.

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Topics:

Introduction to Ties That Blind Understanding Blindness in Relationships The Shift from Individual to Collective Deception The Role of Attachment and Identity Navigating Painful Realizations Cognitive Dissonance Explained The Power of Cognitive Dissonance Five Reasonabilities for Healthy Relationships The Church's Role in Community and Justice

Featured Guest

• Dr. Alan Godwin

Resources mentioned

• The Ties The Blind https://amzn.to/4tswxk4

• The Barn https://amzn.to/4a7qwll

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Musician and author, Andrew Osenga, joins Amy to talk about the forgotten pathways to an authentic faith, his work with developing artists, and the Anchor Hymns project.

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In this episode, we talk about

• Amy meeting Andrew

• Andrew's work in finding and developing new artists

• Sara Groves and Joel Hanson, both musicians from Minnesota
• Which Hymns are timeless and why
• Faith and doubt as companions
• Fighting cynicism

Featured Guest

• Andrew Osenga

Resources mentioned

• How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to an Authentic Faith https://amzn.to/3MlYNEm

• Andrew's Substack (2) Andrew Osenga | Substack

• Anchor Hymns Anchor Hymns

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Melissa Hogan joins Amy Fritz to give an update on the O'Connor v. Lampo Group lawsuit.

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Featured Guest

Melissa Hogan, (2) Res Ipsa with Melissa J. Hogan | Substack

Resources mentioned

• Faithful Counseling

• Lawsuit Documents

• Previous Ramsey episodes

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Therapist and author Tammy Gustafson joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to talk about intimate partner betrayal and healing. Whether you are a survivor of betrayal or want to be a good friend to someone who has walked through this, this is an important episode.

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In this episode we talk about

• Phases of healing
• Misconceptions of the Bible and revovering from betrayal
• What "successful" healing looks like

Featured Guest

• Tammy Gustafson

Resources mentioned

• Faithful Counseling

• The Life Saving Divorce https://amzn.to/3YPkn6Z

• Tammy Gustafson Tammy Gustafson | Betrayal Healing

• Betrayal healing conference Betrayal Healing Conference | Tammy Gustafson

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Podcast Host, Amy Fritz, reflects on 2025 with lessons learned, articles she's shared, favorite books and musicians, and some things she's thinking about for 2026

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In this episode we talk about:

• Working on a memoir
• Articles from 2025
• Musicians I love
• News stories I'm still thinking about

Resources mentioned

• Untangled Faith Substack
• Suzy Flory, One Year Memoir
• Get the Hell Out of Dodge
• Open When You Drop Your Daughter Off At College For the First Time
• That Time Dave Ramsey Said He Might Possible Owe My Husband an Apology
• On Celebrations and Landmines and Reminders of the Places we Had to Leave
• Reckoning With Reports that Someone In Your Community Has Harmed Someone
• I Was Warned About the World, But Not About This
• Jon Guerra
• Sarah Kroger
• Becca Jordan
• Michael Tait allegations
• The Glass House
• The Tell
• Perversion of Justice
• Ordinary Time
• Remarkably Bright Creatures
• Becoming the Pastor's Wife
• Dinner for Vampires
• The Quiet Damage
• Theo of Golden
• Peril

Some of these links are affiliate links that give me a small percentage at no extra cost to you.

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Journalist and author Scott Latta joins Amy Fritz to discuss Scott's new book, Gods of the Smoke Machine: Power, Pain, and the Rise of Christian Nationalism in the Megachurch, sharing stories of power, accountability, and the changing landscape of American megachurches.

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In this episode we:

• Explore why megachurches are growing even as overall church attendance in America declines.

• Examine the evolution from traditional "big box" churches to franchise-style, multi-site megachurch models.

• Discuss the impact of megachurch growth on small churches, including the cannibalization of congregations and properties.

• Explore the profound loss experienced by members when megachurch scandals or abusive leaders come to light, and how that pain is multiplied by scale.

• Hear firsthand stories from those harmed by toxic church systems and why amplifying survivor voices is critical.

• Unpack the phenomenon of faux accountability and restoration processes for fallen pastors in megachurch networks.

• Discuss Boz Tchividjian's insights on the legal landscape, the role of financial consequences in church accountability, and why civil litigation is sometimes the only path to justice.

• Investigate how megachurches cultivate soft political power, their influence on Christian nationalism, and the increasing willingness of pastors to openly engage in politics.

• Offer practical wisdom for those seeking healthy faith communities, what real accountability looks like, and how to rethink church engagement after disillusionment.

Featured Guest

• Scott Latta Gods of the Smoke Machine | Scott Latta | Substack

Resources mentioned

• Faithful Counseling BetterHelp - Get Started & Sign-Up Today

• Scott Latta's Substack Gods of the Smoke Machine | Scott Latta | Substack

• Scott Latta on Bluesky Scott Latta (@scottlatta.bsky.social) — Bluesky

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Author and speaker Mary DeMuth joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to talk about the practice of surrender, what it looks like in the midst of personal trials, and the story behind her newest devotional book, The Freedom of Surrender: 40 Devotions for a Joyful Life in Christ.

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In this episode we:

• Hear the origin story behind Mary's newest book, including how she combined her writing and original art in a 40-day devotional on surrender.

• Discuss what it means to surrender reputation, finances, relationships, aging, and even inner cynicism—and how Mary has personally wrestled with these themes.

• Talk honestly about vulnerability, church hurt, and the ongoing journey of healing from trauma and moral injury.

• Explore the tension between discernment and cynicism, especially when coming out of abusive faith communities.

• Share practical encouragement for those feeling isolated or stuck in their faith, and ways we can invite Jesus into our everyday struggles.

• Reflect on the power of community and honesty in the process of spiritual growth.

Featured Guest

• Mary DeMuth

Resources mentioned

• Faithful Counseling BetterHelp - Get Started & Sign-Up Today

• Church Hurt Checklist

• Bookstore - Mary DeMuth

• The Freedom of Surrender: https://amzn.to/4q8Nn63

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This episode contains content that may be difficult for those who have experienced violence or who are sensitive to mentions of abuse or intimate partner violence. Please take care when listening.

In 2007, Pastor Neil Schori sat down with a woman who had come to him for marriage counseling. You probably recognize her name: Stacy Peterson.

Not long after that conversation, Stacy when missing and still has not been found.

Her husband, Drew Peterson, is serving time in prison for being convicted of murdering his previous wife.

Pastor Neil joins the Untangled Faith podcast to share his thoughts on the Steven Crowder video, what he wishes he had known about intimate partner violence and what friends and faith community leaders need to know to be safe places for those who may not even know they are in danger.

In this episode, we talk about:

• The multiple facets of abuse go beyond bodily injury.

• The necessity of pastors to possess the right skills to manage abusive scenarios.

• Red flags the signal abuse situations.

• Empowering victims

• How incorrect theology is harming those being abused.

Links:

Document the Abuse website: https://documenttheabuse.com

Neil Schori on Twitter: https://twitter.com/neilschori

Neil Schori coaching: https://www.facebook.com/SchoriCoaching

Sign up for Amy's email list and get her weekly podcast updates and monthly newsletter: https://untangledfaithpodcast.com

Related Episodes:

https://untangledfaithpodcast.com/2022/05/11/43-what-weve-gotten-wrong-about-divorce-guest-gretchen-baskerville/

Support the show:

Subscribe to my newsletter: https://untangledfaith.substack.com

This podcast is sponsored by Faithful Counseling. For more information and for 10% off your first month, visit Faithful Counseling- https://faithfulcounseling.com/untangled

Where you can find me:

https://untangledfaithpodcast.com

https://instagram.com/untangledfaith

https://instagram.com/amyhenningfritz

Hillary McBride joins Amy Fritz on the Untangled Faith podcast to unpack spiritual trauma, healing, and how we can create faith communities that avoid replicating unhealthy patterns.

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In this episode we:

• Explore who McBride's new book, Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing, is for and how different groups relate to spiritual trauma.

• Define spiritual abuse and spiritual trauma, and unpack the common misconceptions surrounding these terms.

• Discuss how curiosity and hope can bridge the gap between those who have and haven't experienced spiritual trauma.

• Address the accusation that spiritual trauma is a "fad" and reflect on the history and reality of spiritual harm, especially for marginalized communities.

• Consider the ethical complexities of sharing stories—both for survivors of spiritual trauma and those hosting podcasts or creating resources.

• Talk through practical ways new communities and organizations can avoid recreating harmful power dynamics and foster safety and agency.

• Reflect on the role of conflict, repair, and personal healing in faith spaces and survivor communities.

• Touch on generational differences in openness to processing and naming spiritual harm and why resources matter for healing.

Featured Guest

• Hillary McBride

Resources mentioned

• Faithful Counseling BetterHelp - Get Started & Sign-Up Today

• Holy Hurt: Understanding Spiritual Trauma and the Process of Healing

• Hillary L McBride - Therapist, Researcher, Speaker and Writer

• Hillary L McBride (@hillaryliannamcbride) • Instagram photos and videos

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