Work for Humans has long advocated for employees to be seen as customers, but we've faced resistance from traditional programs that churn out MBAs focused on profits and the bottom line. This perspective overlooks a critical point: companies risk losing money and innovation if they don’t put employees at the center of their decisions.

In a surprising turn, author and professor Stephan Meier has partnered with Columbia Business School to release The Employee Advantage. Through detailed case studies, this book demonstrates how embracing an employee-centric approach leads to superior business outcomes.

Stephan Meier is a leading global expert at the intersection of behavioral economics, business strategy, and the future of work. He is currently the James P. Gorman Professor of Business Strategy and Chair of the Management Division at Columbia Business School.

In this episode, Dart and Stephan discuss:
- Key drivers of customer and employee centricity
- The reasons behind rising customer expectations
- Leadership mindsets for employee well-being
- Customers vs. employees in earnings calls
- Case studies of employee-centric models
- Lessons from employee segmentation
- The need for “just-right tasks” in the workplace
- The role of the manager in an employee-customer model
- And other topics…

Stephan Meier is a leading global expert at the intersection of behavioral economics, business strategy, and the future of work. He is currently the James P. Gorman Professor of Business Strategy and Chair of the Management Division at Columbia Business School. Stephan is also the author of The Employee Advantage, which demonstrates how employee-centric companies drive superior business outcomes.

With a master’s degree in history, economics, and political science, and a doctorate from the University of Zurich, Stephan’s research has been published in journals such as the American Economic Review and Management Science, as well as outlets like the Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Bloomberg, and BBC. Prior to his tenure at Columbia, he was the first senior economist for the Center for Behavioral Economics and Decision-Making at the Federal Reserve Bank.

Resources mentioned:
The Employee Advantage, by Stephan Meier: https://www.amazon.com/Employee-Advantage-Putting-Workers-Business-ebook/dp/B0CTZCM238

Connect with Stephan:
www.StephanMeier.com 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Work for Humans has always been about designing with the employee in mind, but many designers mistakenly focus on objects rather than the actions those objects should create. This leads to falling back on traditional roles and routines when there is actually more choice out there. Inspired by the power of designing for action instead of things, WFH connected with Stephanie Gioia and Melanie Kahl—two design strategists dedicated to human-centered organizational design. Together, they’re creating a pattern language library, offering a resource that encourages more choice and innovation to all designers.

In this episode, Dart, Stephanie, and Melanie discuss:
- Human-centered organizational design practice
- Pattern language in design
- Designing for verbs instead of things
- What is designable and what isn’t
- 5 key categories of pattern language
- Design lessons from education and biological systems
- Holding spaces for participatory design
- And other topics…

Stephanie Gioia is a partner and lead design strategist at Future Work Design, a firm dedicated to transforming workplaces through innovative design. With over 15 years of experience in consulting and education, she specializes in organizational design and human-centered practices. Stephanie also serves as the Lab Director of EitherOrg and as an Executive MBA instructor at the University of Oregon, where she furthers her commitment to participatory design and systemic change.

Melanie Kahl is an innovation leader and strategist with over 15 years of experience designing programs and spaces that foster human flourishing. She previously launched Meta's first Community-in-Residence program and led projects with global organizations like the Gates Foundation and USAID. Melanie holds a degree from Northwestern University and is an adjunct professor at the School of Visual Arts and the Copenhagen Institute of Interaction Design.

Resources mentioned:
Seeing Like a State, by James Scott: https://www.amazon.com/Seeing-like-State-Certain-Condition/dp/0300078153
A Pattern Language, by Christopher Alexander: https://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Language-Buildings-Construction-Environmental/dp/0195019199
Dark Matter Labs: https://darkmatterlabs.org/
The Edge of the Sea, by Rachel Carson: https://www.amazon.com/Edge-Sea-Rachel-Carson/dp/0395924960

Connect with Stephanie & Melanie:
www.futurework.design
www.eitherorg.org
Stephanie LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniegioia/
www.MelanieKahl.com
Melanie’s Instagram: @melanie_kahl
Melanie’s X: @melaniekahl

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Architecture has traditionally centered on buildings, often overlooking the most crucial element—people. Urban designer Blaine Merker sees this as a missed opportunity. As Partner, Director, and Head of Climate Action at the Gehl research consultancy, Blaine aims to shift the industry’s focus. By guiding companies to adopt community-centered design practices, he’s working to transform urban spaces, ensuring that people—not just structures—are at the heart of every project.

In this episode, Dart, Blaine, and Alice discuss:
- The origin and mission of Gehl
- Shaping behavior through empirical evidence and design
- Prioritizing people over buildings in architecture
- In-between spaces and why companies should invest in them
- The norms created by a space
- Designing for serendipity, connection, and collaboration
- Integrating ecology into corporate landscapes
- And other topics…

Blaine Merker is Partner, Director, and Head of Climate Action at Gehl, an urban design and research consultancy dedicated to enhancing urban environments for everyday people. At Gehl, Blaine leads the company’s private sector work, focusing on helping companies be good urban citizens. During his career, he has managed public and institutional portfolios, taught at the University of California, Berkeley, and led a landscape architectural practice. Prior to Gehl, Blaine was partner and founder of Rebar Art and Design Studio, where he combined art, design, and activism to transform urban spaces.

Alice Katter is a Work Culture & Community Designer and Consultant and founder of Out of Office Network, a pioneering research and design lab and hub.

Resources mentioned:
Rebar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebar_Art_and_Design_Studio
Insurgent Public Space: https://www.routledge.com/Insurgent-Public-Space-Guerrilla-Urbanism-and-the-Remaking-of-Contemporary-Cities/Hou/p/book/9780415779661
Rebar’s Absurd Tactics in Generous Urbanism: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/mono/10.4324/9780203093009-10/taking-place-rebar-absurd-tactics-generous-urbanism-jeffrey-hou
Life Between Buildings, by Jan Gehl: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Between-Buildings-Using-Public/dp/1597268275
Immersion, by Paul Zak: https://www.amazon.com/Immersion-Science-Extraordinary-Source-Happiness/dp/1544531958
How to Study Public Life, by Jan Gehl: https://www.amazon.com/How-Study-Public-Life-Gehl/dp/1610914236
Paved Paradise, by Henry Graber: https://www.amazon.com/Paved-Paradise-Parking-Explains-World/dp/B0BBXGL7QT/ref=sr_1_1?sr=8-1

Connect with Blaine:
www.GehlPeople.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/blainemerker/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Remote, hybrid, and from-home work options are here to stay, but there’s more to work flexibility than just location. Leadership advisor and author Brian Elliott has found that most employees want more control over their work, from when they work to how their success is measured; It’s time to redefine and fully embrace flexible work. In his recent book, How the Future Works, Brian provides a blueprint for using flexible work to truly unlock individual potential.

Brian Elliott has over two decades of experience successfully leading teams at companies like Google and Slack. He is a LinkedIn Top Voice, one of Forbes’ “Future of Work 50,” and the Executive Leader of Future Forum, a think tank that focuses on the future of work.

In this episode, Dart and Brian discuss:
- Changing leaders’ experiences around distributed work
- Defining the purpose behind a company’s work style
- Strategies to level the playing field for employees
- Measuring outcomes based on teamwork
- How to create a culture of connection from any location
- Prioritizing schedule flexibility over geographic flexibility
- Demographic shifts in remote work
- And other topics…

Brian Elliott is an esteemed author, speaker, and leadership advisor, currently serving as the Executive Leader of Future Forum, a think tank that focuses on the future of work. With almost three decades of experience in leadership, he has successfully led teams and built companies both as a startup CEO and as an executive at Google and Slack.

Brian holds degrees from Northwestern University and Harvard Business School. He is the bestselling author of How the Future Works, a LinkedIn Top Voice, and has been recognized as one of Forbes’ “Future of Work 50.” His insights have been featured in publications such as Fortune, Harvard Business Review, and Time.

Resources mentioned:
How the Future Works, by Brian Elliott: https://www.amazon.com/How-Future-Works-Leading-Flexible-ebook/dp/B09YN2J6XZ

Connect with Brian:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/belliott/
www.FutureForum.com 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Hundreds of thousands of college graduates were promised that more learning meant more earning – but they’re now facing a harsh new reality. AI, outsourcing, and a shifting economy have created an oversupply of educated workers, leading to widespread feelings of betrayal and crushing student debt. Human capital is not delivering on its promise.

Phillip Brown, a distinguished sociologist, author, and professor, is on a mission to redefine human capital in an age of new technology and limited quality jobs. In his latest book, Death to Human Capital, he calls for a new paradigm to rethink how we view labor supply, demand, and returns.

Phillip is a Distinguished Research Professor at Cardiff University. He has authored 17 books and more than 100 publications, critically examining the relationship between education, social mobility, and economic inequality on a global scale.

In this episode, Dart and Phil discuss:
- The rise and false promise of human capital theory
- The oversupply of graduates and economic betrayal
- Outsourcing knowledge work and the impact of AI
- Labor scarcity vs. job scarcity
- The definition of a quality job
- The new paradigm
- Rethinking labor supply, demand, and returns
- Phil’s specific policy recommendations
- And other topics…

Phillip Brown is a British sociologist, author, and Distinguished Research Professor at Cardiff University. With over three decades of experience, his work critically examines the relationship between education, social mobility, and economic inequality on a global scale. His latest book, The Death of Human Capital, argues against the false promise of human capital theory and redefines it in the context of AI, outsourcing, and job quality.

Phillip holds a Ph.D. from Swansea University and is a Fellow of the Academy of Social Sciences. He has authored 17 books and over 100 articles and reports, and has delivered keynote presentations in over 17 countries, including at the World Bank, International Labour Organization, and European Union.

Resources mentioned:
The Death of Human Capital, by Phillip Brown: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Human-Capital-Promise-Disruption/dp/0190644303
The Global Auction, by Phillip Brown: https://www.amazon.com/Global-Auction-Promises-Education-Incomes/dp/0199731683/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&sr=1-1

Connect with Phil:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phillip-brown-23b60316/?originalSubdomain=uk
Google Scholar: https://scholar.google.co.uk/citations?user=O9LeQNwAAAAJ&hl=en 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

We tend to use the word ritual to talk about everyday routines. For instance, we have our ritualistic cup of coffee in the morning. But rituals are much more than just repetitive actions. True rituals carry deep meaning, emotion, and a promise of transformation.

As a professional ritual designer, Tiu De Haan has designed rituals in countless forms. She took on the heavy task of designing a ritual to unite families of organ donors with organ recipients. She designed a ritual to help a man reach peace with the death of his twin brother who died at birth. And she's created rituals to help teams bond, think outside the box, and do their best work.

Tiu De Haan is a workshop facilitator, inspirational speaker, consultant, curator, and ritual designer. She has created and facilitated experiential workshops for almost two decades, working with clients like Google, Nike, the Ministry of Justice, Bank of America, and BBC.

In this episode, Dart and Tiu discuss:
- How to design a meaningful ritual
- The difference between a habit, routine, and ritual
- How rituals can inspire creativity and new ideas
- The components of effective rituals
- Smaller rituals you can incorporate at work
- Team-building rituals
- The role of the “keeper of the rituals” at work
- And other topics…

Tiu De Haan is a workshop facilitator, curator, inspirational speaker, and ritual designer. She has created and facilitated experiential workshops for over 17 years, including her year-long mentorship program called The Path. As a ritual designer and consultant, she has worked with clients like Google, Nike, the Ministry of Justice, L’Oréal, Bank of America, the Centre for Quantum Photonics at Bristol University, and BBC, among others.

Connect with Tiu:
www.Tiudehaan.com 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

In the modern workplace, constant change is the norm. One week, teams are navigating a new project management system; the next, they need to adapt to a new organizational chart. Even office layouts seem to change overnight to match the company’s latest pivot. While change may be the new normal, leadership expert Ashley Goodall questions its true benefits. In his latest book, The Problem with Change, he highlights the pitfalls of constant change and advocates for the pursuit of stability instead.

Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert, consultant, and author who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside out. He is the former Senior Vice President at Cisco and former Director and Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte.

In this episode, Dart and Ashley discuss:
- Cognitive and emotional effects of constant workplace change
- Consultants’ role in creating change
- The unique world of an executive
- Improving something versus changing everything
- Differences between fear and anxiety at work
- The psychological impacts of layoffs
- The fundamental task of leadership
- HR’s role as the bridge between leaders and the frontline
- Measuring performance without ratings
- And other topics…

Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert, consultant, and author who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside out. Ashley most recently served as former Senior Vice President at Cisco, where he led organizations focused on leadership, teams, and research. Prior to Cisco, he also served as Director and Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte.

Ashley’s books include Nine Lies About Work and The Problem with Change, the former of which was selected as one of Amazon’s best business and leadership books during its release year. Ashley has also written for Harvard Business Review, including the most popular article of 2019, “The Feedback Fallacy.” He holds his BA in Music from the University of Oxford and his MBA from the Columbia Business School.

Resources mentioned:
The Problem with Change, by Ashley Goodall: https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Change-Essential-Nature-Performance/dp/0316560278
The Safety Signal Hypothesis by Martin Seligman and Yitzchak Binik: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003150404-7/safety-signal-hypothesis-martin-seligman-yitzchak-binik
The Anatomy of Genres, by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227

Connect with Ashley:
www.AshleyGoodall.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygoodall/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Industrial capitalism has treated workers like marionettes breaking down work into discreet, disconnected, repeatable actions. It loves uniformity and people who do what they're told. Seth Godin’s new book, The Song of Significance,  challenges us to break free of these limiting mental models, many of which are still baked into how we work.

Seth Godin is an author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert whose past clients include AOL, Microsoft, Penguin, and Random House. His 20 bestselling books, Ted Talks, personal blog, and altMBA program have empowered millions of professionals to drive meaningful change at work.

In this episode, Dart and Seth discuss:
- The Song of Significance
- Choosing and creating jobs of value instead of production
- Eliminating drudgery from work
- How the industrial revolution shaped work, education, and society
- The power of small connections and communities in marketing
- False proxies in the hiring process
- The hiring method that lowers turnover and increases productivity
- Criticizing work instead of the worker
- And other topics…

Seth Godin is a highly influential author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert whose achievements have transformed how we think about business and personal development. His company, Yoyodyne, created the first ethical commercial email and was later sold to Yahoo!, where Seth became the VP of Direct Marketing. He later founded several other successful companies, working with clients such as AOL, Microsoft, Penguin, and Random House.

Seth has written 20 bestselling books translated into more than 35 languages, including Permission Marketing, Purple Cow, and, most recently, The Song of Significance. His TED Talks and personal blog have amassed millions of views, and his online workshop, altMBA, has empowered thousands of professionals to drive meaningful change in their industries. He is also the founding editor of The Carbon Almanac, a global almanac on climate created by hundreds of volunteers from over 40 countries.

Resources Mentioned:
The Song of Significance, by Seth Godin: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Significance-New-Manifesto-Teams/dp/0593715543
The Ministry for the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson: https://www.amazon.com/Ministry-Future-Kim-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0316300136
The Carbon Almanac, by Seth Godin and The Carbon Almanac Network: https://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Almanac-Its-Not-Late/dp/B09XBYL7J3

Connect with Seth:
Blog: https://seths.blog/
AI Bot: https://seths.blog/bot/
Seth’s latest book: https://seths.blog/song/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

The last two financial crises resulted in recessions, financial market instability, and high unemployment rates, but one group of companies proved resilient. Benefit Corporations – businesses that balance profit with social and environmental impact – experienced crisis attrition rates of less than 5%. Bart Houlahan, a co-founder of B Lab, joins Work for Humans to share why companies that invest in people outperform in their field.

Bart Houlahan is Partner at Irrational Capital, the first firm to quantitatively measure the impact of corporate culture on a company’s stock price. He is also co-founder of B Lab, a nonprofit organization that seeks to solve social and environmental problems while driving profitability. Currently, there are over 6,000 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in 80+ countries.

In this episode, Dart and Bart discuss:
- The foundation and purpose behind Irrational Capital
- Why companies that treat people well outperform
- Corporate culture as a new investment factor
- Bart’s take on the rise and fall of AND 1
- The 3 main components of a Benefit Corporation
- How B Corps establish strong governance
- The long-term benefits of stakeholder capitalism
- And other topics…

Bart Houlahan is Partner at Irrational Capital and one of the co-founders of B Lab, a nonprofit organization that seeks to solve social and environmental problems while driving profitability. Currently, there are over 6,000 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in over 80 countries. Prior to B Lab, Bart was president at AND 1, where he helped to finance, operate, and scale the business to $250 MM in brand revenues while focusing on company values and corporate culture.

Bart is a graduate of Stanford University. During his career, he was also an investment banker with Stonebridge Associated, BNY Associates, and Prudential-Bache Securities. Bart is a Henry Crown Fellow of the Aspen Institute and serves as an Advisory Board Member of the Fuqua Center for the Advancement of Social Entrepreneurship (CASE), the Wharton Impact Investing Initiative, and the G8 Impact Measurement Working Group.

Connect with Bart:
B Lab: www.bcorporation.net
Irrational Capital: www.irrational.capital 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Most of us have preconceived notions about work, workers and employment that are so fundamental to how we think that we don’t notice them.  The thing is, such preconceptions shape how large parts of society understand and solve problems. So when a problem is poorly framed, some potentially great solutions can’t be heard.  In a previous episode we heard from Nathanial Kendall Taylor, CEO of the Frameworks Institute describing how his company helps non profits reframe problems in order to transform public thinking and enact social change. 

The Frameworks Institute has just released initial findings on a multi year initiative designed to change the narrative on work and labor. Today we are talking to Director of Research Bec Sanderson who led the effort to learn more about existing frames of work, and ways in which we might disrupt them to bring forward new frames and open doors to new solutions. 

Bec Sanderson serves as Director of Research at FrameWorks Institute. Her research has been featured in Frontiers in Psychology, The Guardian, Vice, and The Psychologist magazine.

In this episode, Dart and Bec discuss:
- How to reframe a concept to create new outcomes
- Tracking American thoughts on the economy and work
- Labor system design issues
- The nature of recessive and dominant mindsets
- Finding the root cause of a perspective
- Alternative work systems and feasible ways to get there
- Competitive framing versus solidarity framing
- Whether or not we have to work to survive
- And other topics…

Rebecca Sanderson is a seasoned researcher and writer, currently serving as Director of Research at FrameWorks Institute. With over a decade of experience in framing research, Bec has led mixed-methods research on climate justice, anti-racism, equality, values, and – more recently – labor systems. Her work has been featured in Frontiers in Psychology, The Guardian, Vice, and The Psychologist magazine. Bec holds her MA in Psychology and Philosophy from the University of Edinburgh.

Resources mentioned:
Work Won’t Love You Back, by Sarah Jaffe: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Wont-Love-You-Back/dp/1568589395

Connect with Bec:
https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/person/bec-sanderson/
https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/work-shift-landing-page/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.