Work For Humans

Anthea Roberts began her career in international law. But after years of studying global conflict and power, she realized the real problem wasn’t policy—it was perspective. People weren’t just disagreeing on solutions; they weren’t even seeing the same problems. This realization led Anthea to develop "Dragonfly Thinking," a framework designed to help individuals and organizations view challenges through multiple lenses. She is now creating AI tools to apply this methodology to real-world decision-making. In this episode, Dart and Anthea talk about designing better thinking, why diverse mental frames matter, and what it means to build tools that make us better thinkers, not just faster ones.

Anthea Roberts is the founding CEO of Dragonfly Thinking and a Professor at the Australian National University. Her award-winning book Six Faces of Globalization explores competing narratives shaping the global order, and her work blends law, systems, and cognition to help people and institutions think better at scale.

In this episode, Dart and Anthea discuss:
- Why thinking better—not faster—is the key to solving complex problems
- How to help teams see their blind spots and cognitive defaults
- What AI can and can’t do to improve decision-making
- Why tools must fit the human hand (and mind)
- The value of metaphor and reframing in shaping insight
- How to operationalize integrative complexity inside organizations
- And other topics…

Anthea Roberts is a Professor at the Australian National University’s School of Regulation and Global Governance and a Visiting Professor at Harvard Law School. A globally recognized legal scholar and systems thinker, she created “Dragonfly Thinking,” a framework for navigating complexity through multiple perspectives. Anthea is the award-winning author of Is International Law International? and co-author of Six Faces of Globalization, named one of the Best Books of 2021 by the Financial Times and Fortune. Through her company Dragonfly Thinking, she is developing AI tools to support better decision-making in complex environments.

Resources Mentioned:
Anthea’s website: anthearoberts.com
Dragonfly Thinking: dragonflythinking.net
Six Faces of Globalization, by Anthea Roberts and Nicolas Lamp: amazon.com/Six-Faces-Globalization-Loses-Matters/dp/0674245954
Superforecasting, by Philip Tetlock: amazon.com/Superforecasting-Science-Prediction-Philip-Tetlock/dp/0804136718
Images of Organization, by Gareth Morgan: amazon.com/Images-Organization-Gareth-Morgan/dp/1412939798
Kate Griggs on Work for Humans: open.spotify.com/episode/6JogZDTsIeABNKsuCGV6Ve

Connect with Anthea:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthea-roberts-a8596b142/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Lisa Kay Solomon sees design everywhere—not just in products, but in conversations, strategies, systems, and futures. As a futurist and strategist, she has spent her career helping leaders and organizations think long-term, navigate uncertainty, and drive meaningful change through intentional design. 

In this episode, Lisa and Dart talk about how to lead with imagination in uncertain times, why good strategy needs emotional engagement, and how design can be a form of applied hope. They also explore what leaders can learn from scenario planning, the surprising lessons of an early GNC wellness experiment, and how future-readiness starts with asking better questions.

Lisa Kay Solomon is a futures and design educator at Stanford University’s d.school, where she teaches classes on long-term thinking, systems leadership, and civic imagination. She is the co-author of Moments of Impact and Design a Better Business.

In this episode, Dart and Lisa discuss:
- Why the best leaders are also designers of the future
- The power of imagination in strategy and systems change
- What scenario planning can teach us about agency
- How emotional connection drives effective strategy
- Lessons from civic design and community-led change
- And other topics...

Lisa Kay Solomon is a futurist, strategist, and Designer in Residence at the Stanford d.school, where she helps leaders and students develop the skills to navigate uncertainty and shape long-term change. She is the co-author of the bestselling books Moments of Impact and Design a Better Business. Named to the Thinkers50 Radar list and recognized by ixDA as a Woman of Design, Lisa is known for blending design, foresight, and civic imagination to prepare people for the future.

Resources Mentioned:

Moments of Impact: How to Design Strategic Conversations That Accelerate Change, by Lisa Kay Solomon and Chris Ertel: https://www.amazon.com/Moments-Impact-Strategic-Conversations-Accelerate/dp/1451697627

Design a Better Business: New Tools, Skills, and Mindset for Strategy and Innovation, by Patrick Van Der Pijl, Justin Lokitz, and Lisa Kay Solomon: https://www.amazon.com/Design-Better-Business-Strategy-Innovation/dp/1119272114

Stanford d.school: https://dschool.stanford.edu

The Long Now Foundation: https://longnow.org

Connect with Lisa:

Website: https://www.lisakaysolomon.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisakaysolomon/

Course: https://www.linkedin.com/learning/leading-like-a-futurist

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Nubank is the largest digital bank outside of Asia and one of the fastest-growing companies globally, recently surpassing 119 million customers across Brazil, Mexico, and Colombia. Much of that growth has been fueled by an obsessive focus on customer experience. Now, Suzana Kubric and Jessica Matsumoto are bringing that same mindset to employees. In this episode, Dart talks with Suzana and Jessica about what it means to design HR as a product, why Nubank brought in PMs and designers from other disciplines to lead the effort, and how to lead an organization as it goes through this kind of transformation. 

Suzana Kubric is Chief People Officer at Nubank, where she’s leading a transformation of HR into a product and design function. She brings a customer-obsessed lens to building employee experience at scale.

Jessica Matsumoto is Senior Director of People Experience, Growth, and Culture at Nubank. She co-leads the People & Culture Product team, applying product thinking to reimagine how work is designed.

In this episode, Dart, Suzana, and Jessica discuss:
- How HR can be reimagined as a product team
- Why employee experience needs more than policies and programs
- What journey mapping looks like inside a 100-million-customer company
- How designers and PMs are reshaping HR’s role and process
- What makes employees feel like true customers of work
- The risks and rewards of building in the open
- Why this shift changes not just what HR does, but what it is
- And other topics…

Suzana Kubric is Chief People Officer at Nubank, where she is leading a transformation of HR into a product and service design function. She is helping one of the world’s fastest-growing companies redesign work to be as intentional and human-centered as its customer products.

Jessica Matsumoto is Senior Director of People Experience, Growth, and Culture at Nubank. She co-leads the People & Culture Product team, applying product thinking and experimentation to the full employee lifecycle.

Resources Mentioned:
Nubank: https://nubank.com.br

Connect with Suzana:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/suzana-kubric-8948b57/

Connect with Jessica:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-matsumoto-5a836620/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

If work is a product, and employees are customers of that product, then every company is a multi-sided business, one that must serve both consumers and workers. According to platform economist Andrei Hagiu, how companies design that experience, how they structure control, pricing, and participation, matters more than we realize. He has spent his career studying the world’s most influential platforms, from Uber and Airbnb to Apple and Amazon. In this episode, Dart and Andrei explore what platform strategy can teach us about modern work design, why the “employee vs. contractor” debate is outdated, when it is efficient to give employees more control, and what “platform governance” means inside a company.

Andrei Hagiu is a professor at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business and a leading expert on multi-sided platforms. His research focuses on the strategic decisions that shape platform businesses, including pricing, control, and design.

In this episode, Dart and Andrei discuss:
- What Uber, Airbnb, and Upwork get right—and where they fail workers
- The difference between a multi-sided business and a true platform
- Why “employee vs. contractor” is a false dichotomy
- How outdated laws are holding back the future of work
- When giving workers more control is smart—and when it’s not
- What a Mexican cockfight reveals about platform pricing
- How employers can learn from platforms to design better work
- And other topics…

Andrei Hagiu is a professor of Information Systems at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business and one of the world’s leading experts on multi-sided platforms. His research explores how platforms like Uber, Airbnb, and Apple make strategic decisions about pricing, control, and governance—and what those decisions mean for users, workers, and markets. Prior to BU, Andrei taught at MIT Sloan and Harvard Business School. He advises global companies on platform strategy and is the co-author of several foundational papers on platform economics. His work helps businesses, from tech startups to established firms, navigate the complex dynamics of serving multiple stakeholders at once.

Resources Mentioned:
Andrei Hagiu’s website: https://andreihagiu.com

Connect with Andrei:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrei-hagiu-0646751/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

At its best, work is co-created. It’s not something companies hand out—it’s something employees help build by showing up fully and taking risks. But that kind of courage requires something we don’t talk about enough: audacity. Anne Marie Anderson has built her career on it. She’s worked in 20 countries, broken ground as one of ESPN’s first female sideline reporters, and navigated some of the most high-stakes environments in sports broadcasting. For Anne, audacity isn’t about fearlessness—it’s about dismantling doubt, trusting your voice, and building the kind of support system that helps you leap anyway.

In this episode, Anne and Dart talk about what makes someone bold enough to raise their hand, speak up, or swing big, even when failure is possible. They explore the four barriers to audacity, the difference between recklessness and worth-it risk, and how to build the kind of support system that helps people take meaningful leaps at work.

Anne Marie Anderson is a keynote speaker, leadership coach, and former sports broadcaster who has worked with ESPN, CBS, and NBC. She’s the author of Cultivating Audacity, and helps individuals and teams unlock courageous performance through mindset, resilience, and presence.

In this episode, Dart and Anne discuss:
- The four barriers that hold people back from bold action
- The difference between recklessness and worth-it risk
- How to turn rejection into resilience
- Why boldness is a habit, not a personality trait
- The “front row” mindset and how to build one
- The connection between belonging and courage
- Lessons from high-pressure moments in sports and broadcasting
- And other topics…

Anne Marie Anderson is a keynote speaker, leadership coach, and former ESPN broadcaster. She’s the author of Cultivating Audacity: Dismantle Doubt and Let Yourself Win. Anne helps individuals and teams build confidence, take bold risks, and lead with authenticity. Through her 25+ year career in sports media and performance coaching, she has worked in over 80 countries and brings deep experience in high-stakes communication and personal growth.

Resources Mentioned:
Cultivating Audacity, by Anne Marie Anderson: https://cultivatingaudacity.com
Limitless, by Laura Gassner Otting: https://www.amazon.com/Limitless-Ignore-Everybody-Carve-your/dp/1940858763

Connect with Anne:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-marie-anderson-3557ab39/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/annemarieandersontv/
Website: https://annemarieanderson.com

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

When we talk about what makes a great leader, we tend to focus on confidence, decisiveness, and maybe even charisma. Less often do we talk about humility. And yet, humility, according to psychologist Dr. Simon Moss, may be the trait that unlocks the most growth, resilience, collaboration, and trust. In this episode, Dart and Simon talk about why humility isn’t the opposite of confidence, how future clarity increases self-awareness, and how organizations can be structured to reward groundedness instead of ego. 

Dr. Simon Moss is a psychologist and Dean of Graduate Research at the University of Wollongong. His research focuses on workplace behavior, ethical leadership, and the psychological conditions that promote wellbeing, performance, and integrity at work.

In this episode, Dart and Simon discuss:

- The difference between humility and insecurity
- Why humble leaders often drive stronger performance
- How clarity about the future shapes grounded leadership
- The cultural conditions that reward narcissism
- The relationship between time pressure and defensiveness
- How to design humility into hiring, leadership, and culture
- The mission of Radical Humility
- And other topics…

Dr. Simon Moss is a registered psychologist and the Dean of Graduate Research at the University of Wollongong. His research focuses on how organizational and government policies impact individual wellbeing, progress, and innovation. He has authored approximately 10 books and over 100 peer-reviewed papers, with a focus on workplace behavior, ethical leadership, and emotional intelligence.

Simon is the founder of Radical Humility, a research initiative aimed at reducing narcissism in leadership and helping organizations cultivate grounded, human-centered cultures. His books include The Negative Side of Positive Thinking, Where Should I Work? and Emotional Intelligence: Journey to the Source.

Resources Mentioned:
Radical Humility: https://radical-humility.com

Connect with Simon:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-moss-5334944/
Email: [email protected]  

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Oscar Trimboli has spent his life helping people hear what’s not being said. As a listening expert and advisor to some of the world’s largest companies, he’s discovered a surprising truth: most of us only catch a fraction of what’s being communicated. We hear the words, but miss the silences, emotion, and meaning beneath them. In this episode, Dart and Oscar explore the five levels of listening, what it takes to make someone feel truly seen, and how listening can be taught, measured, and embedded into teams.

Oscar Trimboli is a speaker, leadership coach, and the author of How to Listen. He hosts the Apple award-winning podcast Deep Listening and has worked with clients such as Microsoft, AstraZeneca, and Cisco to improve communication and collaboration through listening.

In this episode, Dart and Oscar discuss:
- The five levels of listening
- What it takes to make someone feel truly seen at work
- Why most of us only hear 14% of what someone really means
- The link between listening and action
- How listening can reduce meetings and increase effectiveness
- Why silence is the most powerful listening tool
- What metaphors reveal about how people see the world
- How to teach listening as a core leadership skill
- And other topics…

Oscar Trimboli is a speaker, author, and host of the Deep Listening podcast. His mission is to create 100 million deep listeners in the workplace. He’s advised organizations including Microsoft, AstraZeneca, and HSBC on how to listen beyond the words and build cultures of understanding. His latest book, How to Listen, explores the science and practice of listening well—and why most of us do far less of it than we think.

Resources Mentioned:
How to Listen, by Oscar Trimboli: https://www.amazon.com/How-Listen-Discover-Hidden-Communication/dp/1774581914
The Deep Listening Podcast: https://www.oscartrimboli.com/podcast/
Listening Quiz (Discover your listening barriers): https://www.listeningquiz.com
Unreasonable Hospitality, by Will Guidara: https://www.amazon.com/Unreasonable-Hospitality-author/dp/1529146828
Don't Think of an Elephant! by George Lakoff, Howard Dean, & Don Hazen: https://www.amazon.com/Dont-Think-Elephant-Values-Politics/dp/1931498717

Connect with Oscar:
Website: https://www.oscartrimboli.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/oscartrimboli 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

What do the drafters of the U.S. Constitution, 19th-century industrialists, and a modern defense contractor have in common? According to economic sociologist Joseph Blasi, they all believed in one powerful idea: that democracy itself depends on ownership, and that ownership should be broadly shared. He argues that if we want work to truly work for humans, we need to think beyond job design to a more fundamental question: Who owns the value that work creates? In this episode, Dart and Joe tell the story of shared ownership, from 1700s fishing crews and America’s founding ideals to an $8 billion worker-owned defense contractor, and what it means for the future of work.

Joseph Blasi is a Distinguished Professor at the Rutgers School of Management and Labor Relations, where he studies the economic sociology of corporations, governance, and the workplace. He is director of the Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing and co-author of The Citizen’s Share.

In this episode, Dart and Joe discuss:
- How democracy depends on shared ownership
- The surprising history of profit-sharing on cod fishing ships
- How early U.S. policies supported worker ownership
- Why ESOPs work and where they fall short
- The role of tax policy in spreading employee ownership
- What the founders envisioned for property and citizenship
- How wealth distribution shapes democratic institutions
- Does America have enough ownership to sustain democracy?
- And other topics...

Joseph Blasi is a Distinguished Professor at the School of Management and Labor Relations at Rutgers University. He directs the Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing and is a leading scholar in the economic sociology of corporations and the future of work. He is the co-author of several books, including The Citizen’s Share, Shared Capitalism at Work, and In the Company of Owners. His research has shaped public policy on employee ownership and equity compensation in the U.S. and internationally.

Resources Mentioned:
The Citizen's Share: Reducing Inequality in the 21st Century, by Joseph R. Blasi, Richard B. Freeman, and Douglas L. Kruse: https://www.amazon.com/Citizens-Share-Reducing-Inequality-Century/dp/0300209339
Rutgers Institute for the Study of Employee Ownership and Profit Sharing: https://smlr.rutgers.edu/content/institute-study-employee-ownership-and-profit-sharing
ESOP Association: https://www.esopassociation.org/

Connect with Joseph:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joseph-blasi-870102111/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

From an early age, John Truby knew that stories are not just something that happens on a page. Story is all around us. It structures how we interpret events, and even how we decide how to live.  For John, story forms explain the way the world works.

John is a screenwriter and the founder and director of Truby’s Writers Studio in Los Angeles, where he teaches novelists, screenwriters and TV writers the deep secrets of what makes a great story. His students have generated more than fifteen billion dollars at the box office, and studios like Sony Pictures, Disney, Fox, HBO and AMC routinely consult John on how to improve the stories they tell.

In this replay episode, Dart and John discuss:
- The 14 genres that categorize everyday life
- Which genres produce the most fulfilling work
- Sales as an action story
- Business Analysis as detective story
- Corporate culture as western
- Career as coming of age and memoir
- How the horror genre lurks in the shadows around every layoff
- And more…

John Truby is a screenwriter, director, screenwriting teacher, author, and Hollywood consultant for studios such as Disney, Sony Pictures, Fox, HBO, and AMC. He is the founder and director of Truby’s Writers Studio and has worked on over 1,000 film scripts over the last 30 years.

John created his 22-step outline for storytelling in his first book, The Anatomy of Story, teaching his techniques through global masterclasses to over 50,000 students worldwide since the start of his career. His latest book, The Anatomy of Genres, was released in 2022.

Resources Mentioned:
The Anatomy of Genres, by Jon Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227
The Anatomy of Criticism, by Northrop Frye https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Criticism-Essays-Princeton-Classics/dp/0691202567
Winning on Purpose, by Fred Reichheld: https://www.amazon.com/Winning-Purpose-Unbeatable-Strategy-Customers/dp/B09PC69XV3
The Complete Aubrey/Maturin Novels, by Patrick O’Brian: https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Aubrey-Maturin-Novels-volumes/dp/039306011X
Cinema Paradiso (film), 1988
Master and Commander (film), 2003
Shane (film), 1953
Glengarry Glen Ross (play), by David Mamet
World Experience Organization: https://worldxo.org/

Connect with John:
Website: www.truby.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/johntruby

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

As a journalist, Nick Romeo has interviewed people doing remarkable things, from running worker-owned companies to redesigning gig work as public infrastructure. These experiences shaped his new book, The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, and led him to one big insight: a better economy isn’t just possible—it’s already here. In this episode, Nick and Dart talk about the difference between market wages and living wages, why mainstream economics underestimates people, and how everything from co-ops to experiments in building gig work platforms as public utilities are reimagining the role of work in society right now.

Nick Romeo is a journalist whose work has appeared in The New Yorker, The Atlantic, and The New York Times. He writes about policy, power, and the systems that shape how we live and work.

In this episode, Dart and Nick discuss:
- Why we need a new definition of a “living wage”
- The power of co-ops, trusts, and employee ownership
- How gig work can be redesigned to serve workers
- What it means to design an economy around fairness
- How ownership models shape the future of work
- Why traditional economics misses what really matters
- And other topics…

Nick Romeo is a journalist and author who covers bold ideas in economics, policy, and philosophy. He’s reported for The New Yorker on everything from Austria’s job guarantee experiment to Spain’s Mondragon cooperative and Nicholas Humphrey’s theory of consciousness. His work has also appeared in The New York Times, The Washington Post, The Atlantic, Rolling Stone, and Scientific American. He teaches at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism. His latest book, The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, offers a roadmap for a fairer, more sustainable economy. Praised by The Guardian as “enlightening and inspiring” and called “brisk and sensible” by The Washington Post, it showcases real-world models that are already changing how we think about work, wages, and ownership.

Resources Mentioned:
The Alternative: How to Build a Just Economy, by Nick Romeo: https://www.amazon.com/Alternative-How-Build-Just-Economy/dp/1541701593
CORE Economics Project: https://www.core-econ.org
MIT Living Wage Calculator: https://livingwage.mit.edu/
Well-Paid Maids: https://www.wellpaidmaids.com/
Tax Justice Network: https://taxjustice.net/

Connect with Nick:
Website: https://www.nickromeowriter.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-romeo-b4486393/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.