We talk a lot about doing less to get more—but in practice, most organizations end up doing the opposite. When priorities pile up, and nothing gets removed or finished, the result is a familiar kind of chaos: too many projects, too little focus, and an endless loop of adding more in hopes of getting unstuck.

This week, Rodney Evans and Sam Spurlin unpack one of the most common organizational dynamics they see: the “more-is-more” trap of priority overload. They dig into why deprioritizing anything at work feels so psychologically and politically fraught, how identity and sunk costs keep teams clinging to low-impact efforts, and ways for leadership teams to prioritize at a org wide level, not just assemble a laundry list of everyone’s pet projects.

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Ready to start changing your organization? Let's talk! https://www.theready.com/working-together

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Mentioned references:

00:00 Intro + Check-In: What’s a molehill you’re willing to defend until the end?

03:52 The Pattern: We prioritize everything and nothing gets done

06:01 John Cutler’s 4 Jobs of Prioritization

10:08 Why it’s so hard to stop doing lower value things

18:35 Difference altitudes of priorities

22:23 Where leaders mess up prioritization

25:11 Continuous steering version of priorities

33:05 Idea 1: Use a variant of WSJF for your own variables

37:21 Idea 2: Shift from saying “no” to “not right now”

39:27 Idea 3: Visualize your work to “see” deprioritization

41:26 Idea 4: Openly talk about conflicting priorities

44:00 Wrap up: Share the show with your coworkers!

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of ⁠⁠⁠Coupe Studios⁠⁠⁠.

Despite an explosion of frameworks, toolkits, and “best practices,” the success rate of organizational change hasn’t improved in over a decade. For all the decks, comms plans, and transformation initiatives being sold, most companies still find themselves stuck, repeating the same plays and hoping for different results.

This week, Rodney Evans welcomes back Michael Bungay Stanier—best-selling author, host of the new podcast Change Signal, and longtime friend of the show—who’s on a mission to cut through the noise and find what actually works. They explore why change still feels so weird, the real leverage points for shifting individual and organizational behavior, and whether it’s finally time to retire “change management” as we know it.

Get a copy of Michael's change quadrants he talks about in this episode here: Michael's quadrants.

Learn more about Michael:

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Ready to start changing your organization? Let's talk! ⁠https://www.theready.com/working-together⁠

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Mentioned references:

Timestamps:

00:00 Intro + Check-In: Do you have a non-work related goal that you’re working towards right now?

9:59 Michael’s journey to un-weird change

14:49 Michael’s individual and organizational unlocks for change

21:24 Importance of strong foundational habits to succeed in change work

25:37 Understanding of power dynamics in change work

33:27 Outdated change mindsets to let go of

38:38 Rodney and Michael’s takeaways

40:28 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your coworkers!

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of ⁠⁠Coupe Studios⁠⁠.

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam reflect on what they’ve learned over the course of this eight-part miniseries—about the framework, their own Midnight Zones, and what it means to navigate complexity amidst uncertainty. They share how their thinking has evolved since launching the series, when Depthfinding is most useful (and when it’s not), and why every organization eventually has to ask: Who are we designing for?

The end of the miniseries isn’t the end of Depthfinding. Now it’s time for you to dive in.

Download the Depthfinding guide⁠ to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: ⁠theready.com/depthfinding⁠

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Mentioned references:

00:00 Intro + Check-In: What is the warning label on the back of your box?

04:26 Depthfinding’s impact on our work

08:19 New discoveries from the miniseries

13:50 Limitations of Depthfinding

16:34 Troubleshooting consultants stuck in one zone

22:14 What’s next for Depthfinding

25:14 What’s next for the podcast

27:11 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share the show with your colleagues

This episode's theme music is ⁠Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio⁠.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of ⁠Coupe Studios⁠.

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam dive into one of the most pivotal (and misunderstood) aspects of the framework: stewardship. Depthfinding is built on the idea that organizations are like oceans, not aquariums. That means leaders have to show up in an entirely new way—not as a boss, a hero, or a disciplinarian, but as someone responsible for the ongoing health of a complex system.

Embracing stewardship can be an uphill battle thanks to the ghosts of leadership past and the inner work required to show up well in complexity. But when facing down uncertainty, building the conditions for resilience and learning to steward across each Depthfinding zone offers a new way forward.

Get the PDF Rodney and Sam talk about in this episode

Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding

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Mentioned references:

00:00 Intro + Check-In: What is an underrated condiment?

03:46 Stewardship is how to put Depthfinding into action

08:32 Leadership ghosts of the industrial age: Henry Ford and the org chart

15:10 Leadership ghosts of the information age: Jack Welch and cult of personality

20:11 De-centering leaders and re-centering the organization for the future

23:50 Stewardship in the Midnight Zone playbook

28:13 Leaders modeling Midnight Zone moves is critical

30:29 Stewardship in the Twilight Zone playbook

35:46 Stewardship in the Sunshine Zone playbook

38:13 Stewardship in the Sky playbook

43:40 Wrap up: Leave us a review and share this episode with your colleagues!

This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam zoom out. Because here’s the truth: the experience the last few months in the U.S.? It’s not an exception. It’s the environment we’re working in now.

From top-down compliance crackdowns to the resurrection of five-layer approval chains, we’re watching organizations double down on control just as the world demands more adaptability. Many teams feel stuck waiting for the storm to pass—without realizing that this is the weather now.

In this episode, we unpack what’s going on, what it means to lead when volatility is the default, and how to stop standing still and get moving.

Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding

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Mentioned references:

00:00 Intro + Check-In: What’s a notable wildlife encounter you’ve had?

05:03 Understanding the moment we’re in

07:01 Efficiency in principle vs execution

11:31 Broad cuts that don’t acknowledge complexity

14:57 Midnight Zone churn

19:29 Big sky mandates that are a distraction from real work

28:18 Navigating the changing sky within your organization

34:11 Compounding crises are likely, plan for uncertainty

38:34 Parting thoughts

39:33 Wrap up: leave us a review and send us your questions!

This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.

Rebroadcast note: With everything happening in the world right now, we're taking a quick break from our miniseries to reshare this episode about layoffs. Because sometimes large layoffs are necessary, but they shouldn't be the norm and those being let go should still be treated like humans, rather than a line on a spreadsheet. If you listened the first time around, share this episode with someone in your network who might need it (especially if they're a government employee 😬). We'll be back in two weeks with a brand new episode.

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We won’t mince words: Layoffs suck. They heap very real stress and chaos onto very real people’s lives. And as we’ve seen reported lately, big waves of layoffs are hitting several companies—and thousands of people—hard right now. This pile of not-good news sparked some questions for us, like: Why are layoffs a go-to cost-cutting lever? What pre-layoff org design decisions put employers and employees in this gnarly position? And why does every CEO letter announcing mass layoffs sound like it was written by the same robot?

In today’s episode, Aaron and Rodney, who’ve been on both sides of the layoff aisle, spend time with these queries and dig into:

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Mentioned references:

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam dive into the Midnight Zone—the deepest layer of organizational life, where the lived experiences, emotions, and unspoken reactions of individuals shape everything that happens above. While many organizations focus on surface-level solutions, ignoring the human realities of work leads to burnout, disengagement, and resistance to change.

Leaders who acknowledge and engage with the Midnight Zone create organizations where people feel seen, supported, and empowered to contribute fully. Understanding the emotional undercurrents of work isn’t just about empathy—it’s about unlocking real, lasting transformation.

Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding

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Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.

Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:

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Mentioned references:

This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam step into the Twilight Zone—the often-overlooked but deeply influential space where teams navigate the “how” of work—the “how” of collaborating, meeting, deciding, and experimenting. Many organizations put all or most of their focus on visible outputs and assets, but the rubber meets the road in the Twilight Zone. It’s the organizational depth where strategy actually gets executed—which means it’s worthy of more than a passing glance.

When an important initiative stalls out, when teams side-eye change, when a leadership team’s decisions never translate into clear and meaningful action, it’s time to investigate the Twilight Zone. Leaders who want real progress—not just compliance—must foster cross-functional collaboration and create space for meaningful iteration. Because strategy isn’t about what’s declared. It’s about what actually happens.

Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding

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Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.

Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:

--------------------------------

Mentioned references:

This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam dive into the Sunshine Zone—the highly visible work of organizations, from strategy decks and OKRs to mission statements and financial targets. While these elements are easy to track and refine, spending too much time in the Sunshine Zone often leads to performative goal setting, misaligned priorities, and a disconnect from the deeper work that actually drives change.

Leaders who want real progress—not just a well-polished plan—need to balance the visible with the essential. Cultivating adaptability, feedback loops, and space for creative, cross-functional work is the key to moving beyond surface-level success.

Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding

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Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.

Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:

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Mentioned references:

This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.

In this miniseries, we’re exploring Depthfinding—an easy-to-grasp framework designed to help leaders and teams solve their gnarliest cross-functional challenges.

This week, Rodney and Sam look at the Sky—the external forces like market shifts, technological disruptions, and political changes that shape your organization. While most companies are comfortable staying heads-down in the day-to-day, failing to look outward creates costly blind spots that lead to org debt, misaligned strategy, and even existential risk.

Cultivating a regular practice of looking up and outward is the key to successfully meeting this moment—and all the ones to come.

Download the Depthfinding guide to get the template and examples of how to use it.

Want to learn more about Depthfinding? Head here: theready.com/depthfinding

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Want future of work insights and experiments you can try delivered to your inbox? Sign up here.

Follow us on your favorite platforms for more org design nerdery:

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Mentioned references:

This episode's theme music is Yaggadang by BG & Coyote Radio.

Sound engineering and design by Taylor Marvin of Coupe Studios.