Brad Stulberg co-wrote Peak Performance with Steve Magness and has spent over a decade studying what excellence actually requires. He joins Zoë and Brendan to dismantle the myths of hustle culture and explain why genuine excellence isn't about optimization, it's about caring deeply about something worthwhile. We dig into "zombie burnout" (exhaustion from doing too little of what lights you up), what Brad learned from studying Courtney Dauwalter and powerlifter Layne Norton, and why chasing flow states prevents you from experiencing them. A grounded, research-backed conversation about pursuing excellence without losing yourself.

Brad Stulberg is the author of The Way of Excellence, Master of Change, and The Practice of Groundedness. He's on faculty at the University of Michigan and hosts the podcast Excellence, actually.

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Featured Race: The Devil Makes Three 50k and 10 Miler — May 16th in Waxhaw, North Carolina. Technical singletrack, prairie grass, lake views, generous cutoffs, and a low entry fee because trail running should be accessible. Cupless race, so bring your own hydration. Registration closes May 13th at ultrasignup.com.