The three key insights from this episode: change is orienteering through unknown territory, not following a GPS route; organizations are addicted to efficiency when they desperately need experimentation; and the best experiments are designed to fail safely, not succeed predictably.

I'm diving solo into why small experiments might be the only sane approach to change in these chaotic times. After 30 years in this game, I've learned that "change management" is mostly a delusion — you can't manage your way through the unknown.

Most organizations want Google Maps for transformation, but what we're actually facing is orienteering through a misty valley with no clear path. Your company is probably designed to exploit what it knows, not explore what it doesn't, which creates a fundamental tension for anyone trying to lead change.

I'll walk you through what makes a good experiment, share some strategies for convincing skeptical stakeholders, and explain why you might need to run "two books" — one official, one real. Plus, why kindergarteners consistently outperform MBA students at innovation challenges.

If you're tired of change plans that feel more like wishful thinking than actual strategy, this episode offers a different way forward.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change and transformation.

***

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Keith McCandless’s three key insights: meetings fail because we use five invisible patterns that systematically exclude people; anyone can facilitate breakthrough conversations using simple rules, no charisma required; and boosting both autonomy and responsibility simultaneously creates wildly productive teams.

Most change leaders know meetings suck, but Keith McCandless, co-author of The Surprising Power of Liberating Structures, reveals exactly why. We're drowning in unconscious patterns — presentations, managed discussions, status reports — that stifle the very people we need most.

But let me alleviate an anxiety you might have. You don't need to be a master facilitator to unlock your team's potential. McCandless shares simple structures that work every time, like Creative Destruction, where you imagine the worst possible outcome of your work, then stop doing whatever creates it.

The real shift? Developing deeper confidence in people than they have in themselves. When you use these patterns, product managers start standing on chairs and singing their ideas (no, literally.).

This conversation is candid, practical, and delightfully snarky about why traditional change management creates conformity instead of transformation. If you're tired of the usual approaches to engaging people during change, this episode offers genuine alternatives that work.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.

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Jennifer Garvey Berger’s three key insights: connectivity matters more than individual talent in complex systems; small experiments beat both over-planning and paralysis; and stories are legitimate measures of change before numbers shift.

If you've ever had a change plan that hasn't quite gone according to plan (and honestly, who hasn't?), this conversation with Jennifer Garvey Berger will shift how you think about leading transformation. She's spent three decades figuring out what actually works when everything feels unpredictable and out of control.

Jennifer challenges the "all-star team" approach most of us default to. Instead, she argues for building networks of diverse perspectives because you can't predict whose viewpoint will matter most until after the fact.

She also makes the case for experiments so small they feel almost trivial – like fancy lunches that generated $10 million in revenue. The key is making them smaller than you think, more fun than traditional initiatives, and designed specifically for learning rather than guaranteed success.

And here's something that might surprise you: Jennifer suggests that rumors and stories are often the first real indicators of change, long before your metrics show anything. In human systems, shifting narratives actually is real change.

This isn't about lighting incense and appreciating each other's light within. It's practical wisdom for navigating complexity without losing your mind.

Change Signal. Where ambitious leaders find modern change mastery. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works.

***

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Mark Surman’s three key insights: spending years wrestling with whether your foundational values still make sense; accepting that legacy teams can't build the future, so you need separate structures; and mastering the ability to think across different timescales simultaneously.

Mark Surman, Mozilla's president, shares the messy reality of transforming a 25-year-old organization for the AI era. He's replaced 60% of staff, created entirely separate companies, and spent five years questioning whether Mozilla's core values around privacy and open source even work anymore.

This isn't your typical change management playbook. Mark talks about the "righteousness stick" that nonprofit employees wield to resist transformation, why he set up independent entities to avoid the innovator's dilemma, and his ongoing struggle to help people let go of the past without losing what made them special.

You'll hear practical advice about validating that your communication actually landed, the temperament required to shift between strategic and tactical thinking, and why change leaders need to resist the temptation to force transformation down people's throats. Mark's honest about what's working, what isn't, and whether this whole thing might end up being a "flaming dumpster fire of disaster."

If you're wrestling with organizational transformation, this conversation offers both wisdom and warnings from someone deep in the trenches.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change and transformation.

***

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Three key insights from Anne Gotte: change management is as outdated as "personnel" organizations must diagnose their change allergies before attempting transformation; and leaders need to embrace clumsy imperfection while providing clear direction.

Anne Gotte is SVP Global Talent & Organization Effectiveness at Mondelēz and she brings refreshing honesty to the messy reality of organizational transformation. She's worked at Bumble, Ecolab, and General Mills, collecting scars and wisdom along the way.

This conversation challenges the traditional playbook. Anne argues that "decree change" — where executives design solutions in isolation, announce them broadly, then expect magic — as well and truly reached its expiration date.

Instead, she advocates for building ongoing change capacity rather than managing episodic projects. Her approach starts with uncomfortable questions: Who are we today? What makes any change difficult for us? How do our systems contradict our change story?

The discussion explores why change feels clumsy (spoiler: it's supposed to), how to honour uncertainty while providing clarity, and why slow can actually be fast. Anne's insights about getting comfortable being uncomfortable offer a different path forward for change leaders tired of pretending transformation should feel orderly and predictable.

This is change leadership for grown-ups who've learned that the mess is actually the work.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change and transformation.

***

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Three key insights: Change work isn't transformative anymore—it's operational; your organization does everything the same dysfunctional way; and everyone secretly benefits from broken patterns.

My guest, Rodney Evans from TheReady, has abandoned talking about "adaptability" because people's eyes glaze over. Instead, she starts every conversation with leaders by asking about their gnarliest cross-functional problem that can't be solved.

Why does this work? Because everyone has experienced that moment where important work gets "chopped up, parceled out across the org chart where it goes to die."

Rodney introduces her depth-finding model — four organizational zones from sky to midnight that reveal how change actually happens. The insight that stopped me cold: how your organization does hiring is how it rewards, makes strategy, and handles everything else.

A particularly uncomfortable truth? Broken organizational patterns persist because everybody gets something out of them, even while complaining. The solution involves naming the pattern and stepping outside it through small interventions in how work actually gets done.

This conversation will shift how you see organizational change from discrete projects to continuous evolution. If you're tired of the same problems recurring, Rodney Evans offers a different way forward.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.

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Could it be that your strategic planning is actually paralyzing you, your biggest critics hold the keys to breakthrough innovation, and the military metaphors you're using to lead change are fundamentally broken?

Charles Conn, former McKinsey partner, former Head of Rhodes House, and current chair of Patagonia's board, brings a provocative challenge to how we think about transformation. He argues that our obsession with perfect planning is the enemy of progress in uncertain times.

Instead of waiting for clarity, Conn advocates for small, reversible experiments that build capability while you learn.

But here's also what’s true: you need to actively seek out the people who aren't impressed by you — the unhappy customers, the skeptical colleagues, the ones giving you one-star reviews.

Conn shares a powerful framework for breaking overwhelming problems into manageable parts, focusing on high-impact, low-difficulty components. He also reveals why Amazon never bought a bank to enter financial services, and how two Stanford students disrupted orthodontics by seeing through their customers' eyes rather than the industry's.

This isn't theoretical change management — it's battle-tested wisdom from someone who's led transformation at scale and lived to tell the tale.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.

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Discover why emotional "monsters" sabotage change projects, learn the "fight it three times" rule for managing upwards, and understand why grief is the most overlooked emotion in transformation work.

Molly Graham has scaled teams at Google and Meta, and now runs Glue Club for startup operators. She brings hard-won wisdom about the messy human side of change that most leaders pretend doesn't exist.

The conversation digs into why competing visions create "zebra-giraffe" disasters and how to craft clarity that actually sticks. Molly shares her mentor's brilliant approach to influencing stubborn bosses without burning bridges.

What I thought was most powerful? Her insight about work grief. Leaders race ahead to the future while their teams are still mourning what they're losing. It's the marathon effect — you've crossed the finish line while everyone else is still running the race.

Oh, and then there's Bob. Molly's personification of the emotional chaos that comes with any change, good or bad. Once you meet Bob, you'll never look at resistance the same way.

This isn't your typical change management playbook. It's real talk about the loneliness, emotion, and community that make or break transformation efforts.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.

***

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Why does nobody care about your billion-dollar vision, what can Chick-fil-A teach you about bottlenecks, and how does fixing one problem always create another?

Dan Heath drops some astute and provocative truths about change leadership that'll make you rethink and reset your approach to change. First up: your carefully crafted corporate vision probably sucks because it's all about hitting numbers instead of serving real people.

Heath's blunt takedown of “corporate visions” is just a warm-up. He reveals how the theory of constraints can reset your change strategy by focusing obsessively on the single biggest bottleneck … and he tells a great story about Chick-Fil-a to make the point

Here's the bad and the good news: solving constraints is like organizational whack-a-mole. Fix one bottleneck and another pops up somewhere else. And that gives your change process focus. 

This isn't your typical transformation advice – it's provocative, practical, and grounded in real stories that'll change how you think about leverage points. Heath challenges the sacred cows of change leadership with insights you won't hear anywhere else.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.

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Most change programs get the sequence backwards; uncertainty secretly sabotages willpower; and using your non-dominant hand might triple your success rate.

My guest, Roy Baumeister, is one of psychology's rock stars, and he's spent decades studying what actually works when it comes to willpower and behaviour change. Turns out, we've (mostly) been doing it wrong.

Here's the thing: everyone assumes you need to change minds before you change behaviours. Roy's research suggests the opposite. Get people acting differently first, and their attitudes will follow.

Here's where it gets really interesting. Your people aren't running out of willpower during change — they're hoarding it. When uncertainty creeps in, our brains go into conservation mode, making everyone look resistant when they're actually just being smart.

There’s a surprising way around that. Start ridiculously small. Roy's former student had people practice tiny willpower exercises — like opening doors with their non-dominant hand — before tackling smoking cessation. The success rate tripled.

If you're leading transformation in a large organization, this episode will flip your assumptions about human behaviour, willpower, and what actually drives lasting change. Sometimes the smallest interventions create the biggest shifts.

Change Signal. Cut through the blather, the BS, and the noise to find the good stuff that works in change, transformation, and growth.

***

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