Copywriters Podcast

Our Old Master today begins a chapter of one of his books with this question:

How do you cope when readers do not believe what you have written?

And, he answers it:

You plug the gaps where belief leaks out.

Sounds like a great plan, but it leads to two more questions:

1. What are those gaps?

and

2. How do you plug them?

Now what’s especially interesting about this Old Master is that he’s not a copywriter. But he is a very successful writer and, for my money, the best teacher of how to write fiction you can find anywhere.

And, even more interesting -- the gaps where belief leaks out for fiction writers are largely the same ones that cause problems for copywriters. And so are the fixes. I’ve tweaked his ideas ever so slightly to make them a perfect fit for copywriters.

Our Old Master was named Dwight Swain. We talked about five mistakes Dwight Swain identified in the chapter “The Dynamics of Disbelief” from his book “Creating Characters: How to Build Story People.”

His main point in the chapter is, when you’ve done everything else right, if your editor doesn’t believe the story could have actually happened, then the editor knows readers won’t either, and therefore the editor won’t buy your story.

Good stories are believable, even though, if they are fiction, they never really happened. There’s a phrase, “the suspension of disbelief,” that describes the enjoyable experience we have when we’re watching something on the screen that we know is not actually true, but it’s done well enough so we can pretend that it is.

In copy, the same thing applies, with a twist. We’re not telling a story strictly for entertainment, at least not in direct response copywriting done right. We’re making a claim and we want to make it believable enough so that people take the action we ask them to take.

At least some of them.

Dwight Swain was one heck of a writer. Pulp fiction, magazine articles, screenplays, novels, and lots of other things besides some great books to help other writers.

Here’s a recap of the five mistakes we covered in detail on the show. Though you may already be familiar with the terms, in Swain’s view of the world, they have very specific meanings I haven’t heard about much elsewhere:

Mistake #1: You fall out of viewpoint

Mistake #2: You fail to do enough research

Mistake #3: You’re telling, rather than showing

Mistake #4: Gaps between motivation and reaction

Mistake #5: Not “planting”

Dwight Swain’s book: Creating Characters-How to Build Story People

https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Characters-Build-Story-People-ebook/dp/B00AHYAVBC

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Our guest today, Kyle Jordan, has a website where he breaks down online ad sequences. The series of breakdowns is called “Full Funnel Nudity.” We’ll get to that soon enough, but first, about Kyle:

His first client five years ago was a technical marketing course company called Data Driven Marketing. As a copywriter and marketing strategist, Kyle increased the traffic to their website by about 400%; doubled the size of their email list in one year; and helped them come up with six new products.

But most important, with this first client, Kyle learned the technical side of online marketing from a copywriter’s point of view, in a way that few others have. This know-how led to his specialty, which he calls Funnel Renovations. He has helped multiple clients rehab their funnels and double their sales, just by fixing the funnel alone.

He’s also written for famous professional athletes and influencers -- always with the goal of growing the sales of the business.

Kyle shared some tips with us today from in-the-trenches about getting your funnels to perform better.

He started by telling us about his most unusual motivation for becoming a copywriter and why it was so important for him to succeed in the field.

From there, he shared a number of profitable tips:

• The #1 mistake that kills a funnel’s conversion rate

• Why if you’re not trying to get the last word in, you’re leaving money on the table

• The single biggest reason eCommerce brands should hire a copywriter

• A stupid simple way to increase your average order value by as much as 30%

• Why you should disgust everyone who passes through your funnel

He also told us about a great hack for increasing email open rates and engagement that gives you real-time market research results, and takes it to a new level.

Finally, you’ve got a website is called “Full Funnel Disclosure” and on it is his collection of breakdowns called “Full Funnel Nudity”:

https://fullfunneldisclosure.com

His email address: kyle at fullfunneldisclosure dot com

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A lot of copywriters would like to know how to get into financial copywriting, and our special guest today, Rob Braddock, is just the copywriter to tell you.

He started his financial copywriting career about five years ago at Agora Financial, where he did well. Rob left Agora to work at WealthPress. Working with a high-powered team, he wrote copy that resulted in millions of dollars of additional sales. All told, Rob counts about $60 million in sales in his career so far.

Not too shabby.

He’s gone off on his own and has been a freelancer since last December. Rob agreed to come on today to help people who want to get into financial copywriting understand how he did it, and give them some ideas on how they could get started.

Rob’s a Marine Corps veteran and had personal experience doing face-to-face sales before he ever wrote a sales letter… a couple things to keep in mind about what has made him so successful.

One thing I especially appreciate about Rob is how he gets straight to the point without getting too deadly serious about it. I predict you’ll have a lot of fun listening to us today.

Some of the points we covered:

Rob tells us what he think is the most important thing about financial copywriting that most people don’t know, but need to know — and how he found out about that most important thing.

The best way for someone new to get their foot in the door in financial copywriting.

Steps a copywriter should take to become someone who writes financial promos that sell $1 million or more.

The biggest misconceptions people have about financial copywriting.

What Rob wishes he knew when he first started financial copywriting?

The next step for someone who wants to get into financial copywriting should take.

You can contact Rob at his website: RiseAndMind dot com.

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Our guest today is Million-Dollar Mike Morgan, who has broken sales record after sales record with his sales letters and VSLs.

Mike is now copy chief for Money Map Press, a major direct mail publisher. He’s also a still-very-active copywriter. He doesn’t have time for many podcast interviews, so we’re especially grateful that he could join us today.

Here’s why he’s here:

Let’s say you’ve just written a great sales letter for a product launch. Well, guess what? Your work is NOT done yet.

You still need emails — lots of them. To your list. To your new customers, after they buy. And for affiliates to mail out for you.

Plus, you ALSO need ads and advertorials. To get prospects to your page.

Oh, and don’t forget. All these things have to be done FAST.

Well… Mike has just the solution to your problem. And I’ve got to say, it’s pretty cool.

On the show, Mike told us how he did a lot of these things intuitively, but had to develop a system for a new group of copywriters getting started at Money Map Press. He basically needed to open the lock to the treasure chest in his unconscious mind, and share what was already there.

What he discovered is that, for the “ads for the ad” (emails, advertorials, Facebook and Google ads, etc.), 90% of the work had already been done, in the writing of the main sales piece. Knowing what to look for, and what to do with it once you found it, was one of the main unique value points of Mike’s system.

He also explained why speed takes care of so many problems. Going for perfection right out of the gate slows you down and doesn’t get you perfection in any case. But speed blazes a trail that can lead to perfection, if you navigate it right. Mike gives you some great hints on how to do that.

You’ll get a lot from this show, even if you only write sales letters. Because of a lot of the ideas and methods Mike discloses are just as valuable for getting started on a big project.

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If you run ads for your business, here’s a tantalizing question for you:

How would you like to increase your response by 30%, without writing any new copy?

How about 300%?

Impossible, you say? Don’t say that to our special guest today, Katie Switzer. Because once she explains a few things, she is going to give you real-world examples where these kind of increases have actually occurred.

Katie started out as a mechanical engineer. She learned marketing when she started her own online business for other parents -- she has four children herself. Soon she was taking on marketing clients. Her main focus was improving conversions based on market research and data-driven copywriting

Katie has also worked as a marketing manager for a marketing analytics software company.

These days, she’s helping business owners collect and understand their marketing data — and use what they find to improve their results.

I’ve got to admit, I was pretty excited to hear what she has to say.

Here’s what we asked her:

1. At the most basic level, what are analytics and how does a marketer use them?

2. Could you tell us about the biggest mistakes people typical make when they try to use analytics?

3. Let’s say you have a small list or you’re running a small campaign. Can you use analytics profitably without buying expensive software?

4. How has Facebook made meaningful tracking more difficult, and what are the limitations, especially these days, on using Facebook Business Manager, to get good analytics?

5. Now let’s get into the advanced stuff — attribution software and multi-touch models. Could you tell us about those?

6. What are “the most valued customers”… why do they make up the key metric… and how do you find them?

7. What are some of the big wins you have seen people get with analytics?

You can reach Katie by email: katie at engineeredmarketing dot io

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The ‘R’ word is popping up a lot these days. That word is “recession,” and there’s a good reason everyone’s talking about it.

Prices are going crazy. It seems like everything’s doubled in the last few months. If unemployment weren’t so low, it would be a slam-dunk and everyone would say we’re in a recession.

This is important for copywriters and entrepreneurs, because there are specific strategies you can use to stay afloat and even grow your business in a recession. We’ll talk about them today.

Are you skeptical that anything could work in a recession? A Forbes magazine article says that seven billion-dollar family fortunes trace back to getting started during the Great Depression. So it’s possible to do well when the economy’s in the tank.

Now some experts I’ve seen on TV say we’re not in a recession yet. A really bright guy on the left says we’re pretty close, and just as bright a guy on the right says there’s a very good chance we’ll go into a recession soon.

I don’t agree with either of them. I think we’re not going into a recession, at least until after the elections in November. I think the politicians who have most to gain from no recession will make sure we stall it until they get reelected.

But I’ve been wrong about the economy before. So even against my own predictions, I think it’s a good idea to know what to do now so when things start to look really bleak, you’ll have a plan you can go to.

Because sooner or later there’s going to be one. That’s not just me talking. That’s history talking. We’ve had five major recessions since I’ve had a job or a business, and eventually we’re headed for another one.

The best news of all is, the ideas we’ll talk about today will work great even when we’re not in a recession — and work even better once we are.

So let’s start by figuring out what a recession is. It’s a scary word, and it’s easy to think it means the economy has rolled to a dead stop. Or has collapsed completely. Game over. Economic Armageddon.

And that’s very dramatic, but in truth, that’s not what a recession is.

A recession is when the economy slows down. Keep that in mind as we go through this. Yes, there are problems. There are even some human tragedies. Sometimes a lot of them. But that doesn’t mean the economy has up and left and gone to another planet.

No. It has slowed down.

Another thing to remember: A recession doesn’t affect everyone the same way. Let’s say there’s a business where 10 employees there are your customers. Five of them get laid off. The other five stay on at the same salary they had before people started getting laid off.

The five people who got laid off are a lot less likely to buy from you, in most cases, than the five who still get paychecks on a regular basis. One customer groups has suddenly become two very different ones. So even people in the same neighborhood are not all the same, when it comes to what kind of customer they’d be in a recession.

And there’s another thing before we get into what to do (and what not to do) in a recession.

What’s going on in the economy and specifically in your target market is very important. You need to pay attention and keep tabs on it.

But there’s something that’s far more important, and that’s your mindset.

Now if you’re skeptical about mindset, I understand. There’s a huge industry developed that says if you’re just like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz, and you tap your red shoes together and repeat a magic phrase over and over, that is simply all you have to do and you will live a rich and satisfying life.

I never got the red shoes myself, but from what I’ve observed and experienced, it doesn’t exactly work that way. A positive mental attitude is definitely important, but it’s hardly enough.

The mindset I’m talking about is much more real-world. First of all, it’s a perspective. A way you look at things. Expecting that you’ll be successful but knowing it’s not always easy and you may have to try more than one path to get a result you’re looking for.

But it’s more than that. The mindset I’m talking about involves your hands, your mouth, and your ears. Your hands - What you do. Your mouth - What you say. Your ears - How you listen.

It’s what you focus on. And where you don’t obsess, too. It has to do with you how you use your mind to run your day throughout the week. A bias in favor of action and replacing perfectionism with repeated efforts and adjustments, especially if something doesn’t work the first time.

That’s at least as important as any marketing or copywriting moves you make during a recession.

Besides that, on today’s show, we dig into:

• What NOT to do when a recession hits

• What to do MORE of, and

• 3 proven Recession-Fighting Strategies you can use right away, whether we’re in a recession or not! (They increase income either way.)

• And 4 overall principles to get the most from your business during a downturn.

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After a long pause, we are back with our popular Old Masters Series. Today, a deep dive into an important part of the work of Clyde Bedell.

He’s not all that well known these days, but decades ago he was one of the top guys you would turn to if you want to learn how to write copy that works. Besides being a highly successful advertiser, he was a prominent teacher.

For example, he built a national sales training program for Ford Motor Company in the 1930s. When he was teaching copywriting at Northwestern University, he couldn’t find a suitable textbook, so he wrote one.

That turned into “How To Write Advertising That Sells.” It was first published in 1940—13 years before I was born. The book is 8-1/2 by 11 and a massive 539 pages. It’s pretty hard to find a copy these days, but I found one copy on Amazon for $736. Lucky for me, I got my copy years ago when it was easier to get and not quite as expensive.

We zeroed-in on one chapter which I would call “7 Keys To Believability.” The word for believability that Bedell used was “conviction.” Same idea -- you want to get your prospect convinced that what you’re selling is valuable and worth buying, just by the way you write about it in your ads.

As we go through these 7 keys, you may be reminded on things you’re not doing as well as you could, or you aren’t doing at all. What we’re covering today is a little different in that we’re looking at elements of copy through the lens of believability, which is all-important. A focus on believability.

Copywriters and entrepreneurs intuitively know this is important, but I’ve never really seen a checklist-based system for maximizing believability.

This is that system.

The 7 Keys To Believability we’ll cover are:

1. Present the Main Ideas 3 Times

2. Tell of the Product’s Popularity—Who Uses It And Likes It

3. Zero-in with Bona-Fide Testimonials—And Authority’s Approval

4. Give Assurances and Proof—Build Confidence

5. Guarantee If You Can

6. Make Your Offer Vitally Valid—Be Congruous

7. Convey the Value Definitively—Positively
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A big question, maybe THE big question, copywriters ask themselves when they sit down to write, is this: “Where do I start?”

Of course you’ve got to already know... your product and its benefits. You’ll need to put together the best offer possible. You may need an origin story for the product. Knowing the price and guarantee are important.

But this is all for naught if you don’t have a deep and thorough understanding of your PROSPECT.

Because if you’re selling to the wrong person -- or to nobody in particular -- your copy is not very likely to work.

I came across eight killer questions -- not for copywriting, but for writing screenplays. From the excellent new book, “The Protagonist’s Journey,” by successful screenwriter and college professor Scott Myers. These questions on his list are for getting to know the hero of the film you are planning to write.

Today, though, we’ll look at how we can tweak these questions just a little to create a very powerful tool for anyone who writes copy.

Just like with a screenplay, a copy project can seem completely out of control when you start, too. So, in the same way, the same questions, converted for copywriting, will help you get to know your prospect very specifically and in important ways.

Three reasons these questions are so valuable:

1. They get you out of your client’s head and into your prospect’s head, where the sale is actually made. (or, if you’re writing for yourself, out of your own head and into the prospect’s head)

2. These questions force you to zero-in on important parts of your copy which are easy to overlook — but, because it’s so easy to overlook them, a lot of people do. Now you don’t have to.

3. These questions unearth and explore the many facets of emotional motivation in your prospect — the secret ingredient missing from so many sales letters, and the one thing that propels conversions into the stratosphere.

I’m going to give you a couple different ways to use these questions. A long way, and a short way.

The long way is to go through the questions methodically and write out the answers. And research, or think deeply about, the questions you can’t already answer.

That’s not going to work for everyone, all of the time. So there’s a much faster way you can still benefit from these questions.

And that’s this: Use the questions as a quick checklist, before you write. To make sure you have the questions answered in your own mind or in your prework. And fill in quickly wherever you come up short.

Here are the questions, which we discuss in some detail on the podcast:

1. Who is the prospect?

2. What does the prospect want?

3. What does the prospect need?

4. What is the eventual resolution of the prospect’s want and need?

5. What is at stake for the prospect?

6. Who or what opposes the prospect?

7. What does the prospect fear the most?

8. Why does this prospect need to have this product at this time?

The book is:

The Protagonist’s Journey, by Scott Myers

https://www.amazon.com/dp/3030796817

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Our returning champion is Dr. Harlan Kilstein, who has a brilliant innovation in copywriting he’s agreed to share with us.

Harlan was a guest here two years ago when he gave us some much-needed information about Facebook compliance. But don’t make the mistake of assuming Facebook is the only thing he knows anything about, because Harlan is a super-successful copywriter and entrepreneur who knows a LOT about a LOT of things.

He’s written super-profitable copy for many big names in the direct-response business. He’s created several very successful businesses of his own. And recently he’s come up with a “new” system to sell called Interactive Sales Letters.

I put “new” in quotes because it’s not really new at all. In one way. The concept behind it has been around, and proven, for decades. But the way Harlan is using the concept is brand-new… it’s working… and that’s what he’s going to tell us about.

1. To get us started, what is an interactive sales letter and what about the results you’ve gotten so far should make us want to find out more?

2. Your idea comes from a lot of history of proven techniques. Could you start by giving us a bird’s-eye view of what Publishers Clearing House and Reader’s Digest did, back in the day?

3. You and Jim Van Wyck had a landmark consultation with Jay Abraham, when you and Jim both had large Positive Changes franchises. What was the advice Jay gave you that gave you further evidence of some of the techniques you put into interactive sales letters?

4. How did “Laser-Focused Leads” help you move down the path to interactive sales letters?

5. What was your first full-fledged interactive sales letter and how did it do?

6. Could you walk us through some other recent project?

You can get ahold of Harlan using this email address:

overnightcopy at gmail dot com.

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If you wanted to find out how to make your Facebook ads start working again, who would you turn to?

Well, we’ve found someone I think you’ll like. His name is Depesh Mandalia. Besides being a successful online agency owner, with over $100 million in sales for clients to his credit, he is also a gifted speaker, coach and teacher.

Depesh left the corporate world when his job kind of evaporated during the 2009 financial meltdown. But he landed on his feet and within 36 months he had his first seven-figure year, at first as an affiliate marketer.

He began training entrepreneurs and other marketers in 2018, with something he calls the BPM method. Today he’s going to tell you about it and why it’s very profitable with Facebook in the current environment, even after Apple has clamped down on the data available to marketers.

The title of this episode is “Why Nobody Can Make Facebook Ads Work Anymore.” Obviously our guest and his students still can, and what Depesh had to tell us was great.

I started out by drawing one distinction right away: What’s important is both copywriting, and strategy. Now the best copywriting has a strategy behind it. A lot of people write ads and copy, the “what,” without getting enough into the “why.” Depesh has a neat list of five questions that include three “why’s,” and we’ll talk about that in the show today.

But the unavoidable truth is, you have to think a little harder these days if you want to make things work.

With that, here’s what I asked him:

1. Depesh, you say that copywriting is your “secret weapon.” I wouldn’t say that’s true of every Facebook advertiser, but I’m glad to hear it from you! What do you mean by that?

2. So, in the big picture, how has Facebook advertising recently become harder to make work?

3. Could you review what Apple’s privacy moves have done to Facebook advertisers, and how we need to adapt as a result?

4. I love what you say about the evolution of technology -- fast -- versus the evolution of the human mind -- much slower. Let’s talk about how the teachings of the old masters and how they apply to Facebook advertising.

5. Could you talk about the four things you focus on to build the perfect ad campaign?

6. One thing that’s really helpful is a simplified way to get started on strategic thinking, and you’ve come up with a . Could you walk us through your Five Ws?

(Here are Depesh’s Five W’s.)

A: PLAN

1. WHO are we speaking to?

2. WHAT is the transformation you are offering?

B: ATTACK

3. WHY (emotional) - state shifts

4. WHY (rational) - benefits

C: WHY not? (Barriers, Objections)

7. Could you tell us about your 7-Figure Facebook Ads Course?

Depesh’s 7-Figure Course:

https://garfinkelcoaching.com/depesh
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