Distance To Empty

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Open Fuel: Code DISTANCE for 20% off

Nickademus de La Rosa is back on Distance to Empty! Since his last visit in 2024, Nick has finished his master’s in sports and performance psychology, moved to Canada, and launched Imperfect Mental Performance. He and Kevin compare brutal European 200s like Tor des Géants and Swiss Peaks 360 with the US 200 scene. They cover why these races keep getting faster and why the “specialist” is dead. They also get into how training theory has shifted from pure vert to running economy to fatigue resistance. Nick shares his favorite sports-psych tools: separating self-worth from performance, racing from curiosity, and setting a goal your ego hates. Plus: Kevin’s 100-mile PR at Canal Corridor, Peter’s 73 untrained miles, and an updated take on whether Tor is harder than Barkley.

Show Notes

In this episode

• What Nick’s been up to: graduating from University of Western States, moving to Canada (and getting turned around at the border with a U-Haul), and working with endurance athletes on the mental game
• How Nick’s approach has shifted from Internal Family Systems toward CBT and behavior chains, using “the lower dose” when that’s all an athlete needs
• Kevin’s 18:21 100-mile PR at Canal Corridor, and why low-pressure races create room for curiosity, joy, and presence
• Hot takes from Tor des Géants and Swiss Peaks 360: faster finishing times, top 100-milers moving to 200s, and sleep strategies (early naps vs. 15–20 minute micro-naps)
• Mammoth 200: Kevin finished ninth in 58 hours with zero sleep, and the front of the pack is tighter than ever
• The culture gap: social media and the “hybrid athlete” crowd at US 200s vs. European races, plus thoughts on the Moab 240 cancellation
• Mental prep for long races: appraising your abilities accurately, managing expectations, and fighting the “existential pointlessness” of days three and four (“this inch still matters on day four”)
• Looking back at Kevin’s 2023 Tor: hitting an emotional low six miles in, and what he’d do differently
• Training evolution: big vert, then running economy, then fatigue resistance and durability. Can you still climb at the same pace in hour five of a six-hour day?
• Why the long descents are the hardest thing to prepare for in the US, and why training on the course is the real secret
• Nick’s litmus test for anyone eyeing Tor: a three-day block of steep repeats on 1,000 ft/mile climbs
• “If your ego hates the goal, you’ve appraised it correctly”
• Kevin’s upcoming Oslo Bergen Trail 500K
• Revisiting Nick’s claim that Tor is harder than Barkley: “easier to finish” vs. “easier”

Coaching with Distance to Empty

• Full Tank tier on Patreon ($119/month): light-touch personalized coaching with a plan built for you, plus bonus episodes and Discord access. It’s the first link in the show notes.
• One-on-one coaching with Kevin for the 2027 season

Sponsors & Swag

• TrainingPeaks: Sign up for a free account at trainingpeaks.com, show us, and we’ll send you bib boards. (Kevin works at TrainingPeaks in the Coach Match program.)
• Mount to Coast: Code DISTANCE for 10% off
• Open Fuel: Code DISTANCE for 20% off
• Janji: Choose “Podcast,” then “Distance to Empty” in the post-purchase survey. We recommend joining the Janji Collective ($25 one-time fee for 15% off for life).
• Screenshot your order and send it with your address to ⁠[email protected]⁠ or @distancetoemptypod on Instagram for free swag: hats, stickers, socks, bib boards, bib clips, or a “surprise me” pick.

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

The turn has tabled! This time Peter interviews Kevin about his Badwater 135. After years of saying he'd never run it, Kevin crewed Francis in 2024 and Peter in 2025, then decided he had to see what it felt like to cross Death Valley on foot. He started the 9 PM wave feeling the best he'd ever felt in a race. He ran sub-10 miles in 118°F heat and hit mile 50 by sunrise. Around mile 20, though, a mild pain in his lower left shin started and steadily got worse. He held on through Towne Pass, Father Crowley, and the long flat stretch to Lone Pine, reached mile 100 in under 21 hours, and ground up the Whitney Portal Road to finish in just under 31 hours. A few hours later, the ER in Lone Pine diagnosed cellulitis.

We also cover:

• Kevin's 18-hour, 21-minute 100-mile PR and Western States qualifier at Canal Corridor 100, and Peter's truly untrained 73 miles
• Heat acclimation from altitude training in Leadville plus sauna sessions
• Kevin's fueling plan: about 70g of carbs per hour with Open Fuel and gels
• The Badwater hotel puzzle that comes before the race itself
• Peter's birthday unicycle
• Starlink in Death Valley, walkie-talkie mischief, and Chris's homemade battery-powered misting pack
• A surprise dinosaur in Lone Pine
• The ER trip, a "syphilis" scare, and a recovery drive to Bishop (with a stop at Schat's)

Welcome, Open Fuel! We're excited to announce Open Fuel as our newest sponsor. Use code DISTANCE for 20% off.

Our other partners:

• Mount to Coast: Use code DISTANCE. Kevin and the crew ran in the Badwater-edition C135s.
• Janji: In the post-purchase survey, select "Podcast," then "Distance to Empty."
• TrainingPeaks: Create a free account and send us your welcome email, and we'll mail you some Distance to Empty bib boards.

Swag: Send a screenshot of your receipt or survey to @distancetoemptypod on Instagram or [email protected] for free swag. Options include new "Normalize Crying in Ultras" hats, "Have a Nice Run" shirts, and bib boards. For a limited time, any Open Fuel, Mount to Coast, or Janji order over $50 also gets you one of Kevin's TrainingPeaks training plans of your choice, free.

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Moab 240 2026 Course Preview: Every Section, Every Change, with Head Trail Marker Jameson Collins

The Moab 240 starts this week, and we've got a full section-by-section breakdown of the 2026 course. Kevin is joined by Jameson Collins, head trail marker for Destination Trail. Jameson is a two-time Moab finisher and has spent this week out marking the course, so he has current, on-the-ground details on what runners will face.

Kevin and Jameson cover every leg from the arch in downtown Moab, through the desert of Lockhart Basin, up into the Abajos and the La Sals, and back to town. They rate each section from 1 to 5, ski-slope style, so runners know when they're on a green run and when they're on a double black. They also go through what's new this year:

• The start moves back to 6 AM, and they explain the reasoning behind it.
• There's a new 3-liter minimum water carry out of Base Camp, with a 1-liter maximum top-off at the Lockhart water stop. They explain why it exists and how much water you should actually carry.
• Drop bags are now available at Base Camp and the Oasis.
• Bridger Jack is a new sleep station.
• The fire reroute has been cleared. Runners will still pass through burn areas on Shea and the climb from Shea to Monticello Lake.
• Green and yellow crew groups apply at Shea Mountain and Monticello Lake, along with the pacer drop-off rules.
• The final section has a construction detour. Runners now come down through Sand Flats and the Falcon Flow trail and finish by running through downtown Moab.

Along the way you'll hear about the Oasis "mirage," the double climb on Shea, why Road 46 might be the most important aid station on the course, and Jameson's advice for crews: get out and enjoy Moab while you wait.

In the outro, Peter Noyes is back with his top tip for the race (spoiler: sleep at Road 46), a message for runners listening mid-race, a quick round of Let's Get Deep, and some questionable prep for his own 100-miler this weekend.

Chapters (main episode)
00:00 Intro with Jameson Collins
02:46 What's new for 2026
07:03 Rating system and Start → Hidden Valley
12:21 Hidden Valley → Amasa Back
19:53 Amasa Back → Base Camp (Jackson's Ladder)
25:10 Base Camp → Oasis via Lockhart (water carry rules)
33:30 Oasis → Indian Creek
35:40 Indian Creek → The Island
40:56 The Island → Bridger Jack
46:23 Bridger Jack → Shea Mountain
51:40 Green and yellow crew groups explained
55:31 Shea Mountain → Monticello Lake
58:29 Monticello Lake → Dry Valley
1:01:27 Dry Valley → Needles → Road 46
1:05:23 Road 46 → Pole Canyon
1:09:32 Pole Canyon → Geyser Pass
1:14:48 Geyser Pass → Porcupine Rim
1:19:02 Porcupine Rim → Finish (new 2026 route)
1:24:10 Closing advice
Outro: Peter's tips, a message for runners on course, and Let's Get Deep

Support the show and get free swag
Place an order with Mount to Coast using code DISTANCE for 10% off, or order from Janji and select "Podcast → Distance to Empty" at checkout. Then send your receipt screenshot, size, and address to @distancetoemptypod on Instagram or [email protected]. If you order or leave a review while you're out on the Moab course, we'll send you something extra special.

Join our Patreon for the Discord community and bonus content. It's the first link in the show notes.

Good luck out there, Moab runners. Stay in the fight.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Meet the Mammoths — Bailey Gripshover: The ICU, the PCT, and the Potato Lifestyle

Today's guest spends her working life in a cardiothoracic ICU in Seattle, with patients having the worst days of their lives. When she's not there, she's choosing to suffer on trails — a contrast she says keeps everything in perspective when a race doesn't go the way she hoped.

Bailey Gripshover finished top 10 in her 200-mile debut at Cocodona 250 this past May, and held the lead in the inaugural MBA at Mingus for a while after sinking a shot she fully expected to miss. This October she's back for a second crack at the distance at Mammoth.

We talk about what it's like running these races with a medical background: knowing when to pull the plug on an Arizona Trail FKT attempt because of a swollen Achilles, and also completely botching her own electrolytes at Javelina despite managing electrolyte imbalances at work every single day. She also makes a strong case for being the best-prepared person in the field on sleep — 12-to-14-hour ICU shifts, flip-flopping between days and nights, operating at a high level while exhausted because there isn't another option.

Plus: how hiking the PCT in 2019 introduced her to the idea that people race these distances at all, why the Eastern Sierra is family terrain (her grandpa did the JMT, and she summited Whitney with her mom and sister for her mom's 60th), and her Mammoth 200 video game result — currently second on our leaderboard at 68 hours, after a first attempt where she DNF'd because her feet disintegrated on the pumice. She is now, genuinely, reconsidering gaiters.

In this episode:

• Perspective from the ICU, and why it's "just running"
• When medical knowledge helps, and when it doesn't
• Shift work as accidental sleep-deprivation training
• Four hours of sleep and almost no hallucinations at Cocodona
• A virtual DNF by foot destruction, and a potential gaiter conversion
• Making a basket at Mingus and riding the high
• Her prediction: this will have the best aid station food in ultrarunning
• Peter's preferred potato orientation

Mammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Kevin and Peter break down the 2026 Mammoth 200 course, just days before race weekend. Kevin ran the race last year and shares his memories of each section, while Peter, who hasn't run it, serves as emotional support co-host. They cover what's changed for 2026 and go through the course section by section, with difficulty ratings, crew tips, and where things get tough.

What's new in 2026

• Start time is 9 AM, an hour later than last year, and the race is a week later in the calendar
• The course is now billed at 218 miles (up from 214), and the cutoff has been extended to 109 hours
• GU Energy Labs replaces Never Second as the nutrition sponsor, and all aid stations are cupless
• Duck Pass (mile 17) is now water only
• The first crew-accessible stop is now CRC at mile 24, about 8 miles sooner than last year's Sherwin Creek
• The longest gap between aid stations is now 15.4 miles (CRC to Convict Lake)
• Crowley Lake has moved to the ball field
• Green Church is now Watterson Summit
• Lee Vining has moved to Gus Hess Community Park, with an outdoor sleep station
• Runners now pass under Highway 395 at the Rush Creek Overpass instead of crossing with a crossing guard
• Walker Lake is now a full aid station
• There's a new water drop at the bottom of the Parker Bench descent
• June Lake Junction replaces Obsidian Dome, and Upper Deadman (Glass Creek) replaces Inyo Craters
• The indoor Main Lodge aid station (mile 207) replaces Minaret Vista, followed by a steeper, shorter climb to the summit

The course by the numbers

• 218 miles, roughly 31,000 feet of gain and loss
• High point of 11,053 feet, with an average elevation around 8,000 feet
• A loop around a caldera roughly 760,000 years old

Section-by-section highlights

• Village to CRC: the Dragon's Back descent is the most technical part of the course
• CRC to Crowley Lake: a hot valley-floor gravel road, then the Convict Lake loop at sunset
• Crowley Lake to Watterson Summit: sandy, punchy double track and the Lion's Den tunnel
• Watterson to Sawmill to Taylor Canyon: some of the hardest miles on the course, with pumice, exposure, and a non-crew aid station
• Taylor Canyon to Crater Mountain: fast, runnable double track through Jeffrey pine forest
• Crater Mountain to Lee Vining: moonscape views, a long descent, and one easy-to-miss turn
• Lee Vining to Upper Deadman: Parker Bench, an overgrown descent, and a steep climb out of June Lake
• The final push: Main Lodge, the summit, and a 3,000-foot descent to the village

Kevin and Peter also share crew logistics, including a reminder to double-check driving directions to Watterson Summit and Crooked Meadows, since Google Maps often gets them wrong. They wrap up with advice for the weekend: be ready for anything the Sierra weather throws at you, and keep troubleshooting.

Important: Always verify details against the current official race and course manual, since changes often happen after recording.

Also mentioned

• The Canal Corridor Hundred on October 10, where Kevin and Peter are running
• The free Oregon Trail-style Mammoth video game (link in show notes)
• The Meet the Mammoth series and last year's course preview with Hillary

Sponsors

• Janji: Order, choose "podcast" then "Distance to Empty" on the post-purchase survey, and send us a screenshot for free Distance to Empty swag.
• Mount to Coast: Use code DISTANCE for 10% off.

Support the show: Check out our Patreon for coaching options (first link in the show notes).

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Meet the Mammoths — Amber Weibel: Second Place, and Back for More

Amber ran her first official 200-mile race last year at Mammoth and finished in 55 hours and 40 minutes, second place female. She holds fastest known times on both the Tahoe Rim Trail and the John Muir Trail. And with one week to go until the 2026 race, she's back.

Amber Weibel joins us to talk about picking Mammoth because it let her kids finish out their school week before driving down to crew — a genuinely practical reason that says a lot about where she is in her life right now. She describes what a race feels like after years of unsupported FKTs, where nobody is waiting at the next aid station and the energy bump of seeing family simply doesn't exist. Mammoth, she says, was strangely hard, and her husband had never seen her in a low quite like the one she hit on night two.

We get into the question that's been nagging at us since we researched this episode: she's run the Tahoe Rim Trail both supported and unsupported, and the crewed version was only 22 minutes faster. Her answer is about what a level playing field actually looks like, and why she'd rather be in the wilderness on her own.

She also explains the lie she told herself all the way around the Mammoth course last year, her path from cyclist to Ultraman world champion to trail running, why she'll happily spend four minutes changing shoes to avoid blisters, and her Mammoth 200 video game result — which she'll admit came after a first attempt she describes as embarrassingly slow.

In this episode:

• Picking a race that fits around an 8- and 9-year-old's school week
• Unsupported FKTs versus a supported 200, and what changes
• Twenty-two minutes: what a crew is actually for
• The lie she kept telling herself at Mammoth last year
• Four pairs of shoes, zero blisters
• A 105-hour first attempt at the video game, and a much better second
• Her non-placement goal: showing her kids what working through hard things looks like
• A weather prediction from someone who got caught in lightning on the second summit

Mammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Meet the Mammoths — Gabe Joyes: 200-Mile Curious, Properly Intimidated

Today's guest has raced almost everything this sport has to offer. Gabe Joyes has been top 10 at Hardrock, runner-up at HURT 100 this past January, and finished the Dragon's Back Race, the 240-mile stage race across Wales. He's a coach at Uphill Athlete and a race director himself. What he's never done is a continuous, single-push 200 — until this October.

Gabe joins us to explain why he's been "200-mile curious" for years but properly intimidated, and why the Mammoth course was the one that finally got him to sign up. He also has a compelling theory about what these races actually are: not eating competitions, but problem-solving competitions, where the plan holds for some unknown number of hours and everything after that is jazz.

We also get into something few runners have had to reckon with. A few years ago Gabe fell on his trekking pole while running downhill fast, nearly bled to death on the trail, and was helicoptered to a hospital. He talks openly about how long it took to move past that, why he still uses poles, and the one rule he's never broken since: he does not run downhill with them out. Ever.

Plus: sleep strategy after a 47-hour unsupported Wind River High Route push that went sideways past hour 40, a refreshingly honest answer about having six shoes still in contention a month out, and the single best homework excuse of the series — Gabe outsourced his Mammoth 200 video game playthrough to his 11- and 14-year-old kids, who ran five or six attempts, posted times between 88 and 96 hours, and logged exactly one DNF.

In this episode:

• Why Mammoth was the course worth breaking the 200 seal for
• Plans, chaos, and treating a race as a problem-solving competition
• The trekking pole accident, and how he uses poles now
• Caffeine, hallucinations, and what happens past hour 40
• Six shoes, one month out, zero decisions made
• Homework delegated to the kids (a 100% honest disclosure)
• His non-placement goal: making sure his crew has a good time
• A prediction about the stories that'll come out of race weekend

Mammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Meet the Mammoths — Jake Jackson: Round Two

Today's guest is no stranger to this distance. Jake Jackson finished the inaugural Mammoth 200 last September, has run Cocodona more than once, and is a husband, a father of three, and a UPS driver — who is, for the record, recording this episode from his truck on his lunch break.

Jake joins us to talk about what it's like standing on that start line the second time, knowing exactly what the course is going to do to you. He also had a front-row seat to one of Kevin's worst falls in ultrarunning, around mile 11 coming off Mammoth Mountain, and describes watching the whole thing unfold in slow motion.

He's honest about last year: stomach issues on night one that wrecked his nutrition plan, running the whole thing solo without crew or pacers, and seeing Mono Lake and Obsidian Dome entirely in the dark. He finished — but says he's yet to complete a 200 and feel like he actually nailed it, rather than dragging a dead body across the line. This year he's going solo again, and the goal is to finish feeling accomplished instead of just finished.

Plus, the best homework story of the series: Jake emailed his game result at 3:52pm, then emailed better game results four hours later after knocking it down to sub-70 — and admits it was eating at him at work all afternoon. He also discovered that running as an influencer is faster than running as an elite athlete, mostly because he refused to stop for photos.

In this episode:

• Knowing too much versus knowing nothing on a start line
• Kevin's slow-motion fall on the Dragon's Back descent
• Night one stomach problems and a solo race in the dark
• Why he's never finished a 200 feeling like he got it right
• A training block he's honest about, and why that might be a good sign
• Three game attempts, two emails, and a sub-70 finish
• H1s last year, M1s this year
• A prediction squarely aimed at aid station food

Mammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Meet the Mammoths — Elliot Chisholm: 18 Years Old, Two Cocodonas, and a First 200 Ahead

Today's guest has been on this podcast before. So has his whole family. Elliot Chisholm hiked the Appalachian Trail, the Pacific Crest Trail, and the Continental Divide Trail with his mom and three brothers — the full Triple Crown — before most people his age have a driver's license. He's 18, and as far as we can tell, the youngest entrant in this year's Mammoth 200. He's also still looking for his first 200-mile finish.

Elliot joins us to talk about how the family stumbled into this sport in 2023, watching Cocodona from afar with a friend and realizing that a race combining running and fast hiking was exactly what they'd already been doing across the country.

He's honest about both Cocodona attempts: going into 2025 sick at sixteen, throwing up everything he ate, and dropping somewhere past Crown King. Then coming back in 2026, getting his sodium badly wrong, developing rhabdo, and having his body shut down at mile 150 even as his mind wanted to keep going. Forty-something miles to a hundred and fifty in a single year — and a lot learned about nutrition and problem-solving along the way.

Mammoth is different: he's blazing the trail for his family this time, nobody's run it before him. He talks about training for runnable terrain instead of the jagged White Mountains he trains on in New Hampshire, heading to altitude from 400 feet of elevation, and why he plans to start the race in road shoes.

Plus: his virtual Mammoth 200 finish of 73 hours currently sits third on our leaderboard, his brother Asher helped him make decisions along the way, and he's pre-committed to the Mammoth Basketball League.

In this episode:

• The Triple Crown, and finding ultrarunning by accident
• Two Cocodona DNFs, a stomach bug and a case of rhabdo
• Why Mammoth, and blazing a trail ahead of his family for once
• Training for runnable terrain in the White Mountains
• Sea-level kid heading to altitude
• Third place on the game leaderboard
• A prediction: questioning every decision that led him to the start line — and looking forward to it

Mammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Play The Mammoth 200⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Video Game!

Learn about our Patreon Offers!: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DistancetoEmptyPod ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Get some free DTE Swag by supporting out sponsors!

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://janji.com/pages/distance-to-empty⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and be sure to select 'podcast' > 'Distance to Empty' on the post purchase "How did you hear about Janji" page. Thank you!

Check out Mount to Coast here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://mounttocoast.com/discount/Distance⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Meet the Mammoths — Jill Dennes: Thirteen Hundreds, and Now the Next Thing

Today's guest is a personal trainer and ultrarunning coach out of Nashville who has quietly built one of the more impressive résumés on the Eastern trail circuit — a runner-up overall finish at the Black Hills 100, a start at UTMB last year, and wins and podiums up and down the East. She's run roughly thirteen hundred-milers. She has never gone 200 miles in a single push. That changes this October.

Jill Dennes joins us to talk about why, after that many hundreds, the 200 felt like the only thing left to try — and the refreshingly honest reason she picked Mammoth: it had the shortest waitlist, so she got in first. (Naturally, she then got off almost every other waitlist she was on.)

We get into what UTMB taught her, including a race that started in light rain and turned into a full blizzard, and why a Pennsylvania upbringing on "Rocksylvania" trails still didn't prepare her for Chamonix. She also talks about practicing what she preaches as a coach: consistency, strength training three to four days a week, and the simple rule of getting the race on the calendar so the training actually happens.

For a first 200, her approach is proudly loose. She barely studies the course, doesn't have a sleep plan, has never really hallucinated, and is heading from Nashville's roughly 500 feet of elevation to the Sierra. She's winging it on purpose — and explains why expectations can do more harm than good.

Plus: a former high school point guard enters the Mammoth Basketball League, asks whether made shots come with time bonuses, and reveals a sweet tooth that may be the most dangerous thing in her crew bag.

In this episode:

• Thirteen hundreds, and why the 200 was the natural next step
• Picking Mammoth for the shortest waitlist
• UTMB, a mid-race blizzard, and preparing for anything
• Coaching consistency, strength work, and getting it on the calendar
• No sleep plan, no hallucinations yet, and a sea-level runner heading to altitude
• Homework not done, and a point guard ready for the MBL
• Finish-line firsts: pizza, a burger, sour candy, and a shower
• Her non-placement goal: keeping her gut happy for 200 miles

Mammoth 200 kicks off Friday, October 2nd in Mammoth Lakes, California. Catch live coverage on the Mountain Outpost YouTube channel, and follow @Mammoth200 for updates and tracking throughout the race.