(00:00:00) Introduction

(00:01:37) The Genesis of Project Include

(00:05:24) Challenges of Virtual Workspaces

(00:06:38) Meritocracy and the Tech Industry

(00:09:24) Overcoming Resistance to DEI

(00:13:46) DEI as a Business Imperative

(00:19:50) Balancing Morality and Market Pressure

(00:25:31) Governing AI in the Workplace

(00:28:32) Social Media’s Role in Amplifying Harm

(00:37:26) Impactful Investments in DEI-Focused Ventures

(00:41:27) Conclusion

Tech’s “meritocracy” is broken—Ellen Pao unpacks how to fix it.

Alright, let’s get real—tech’s so-called “meritocracy” is doing more harm than good, and it’s time to face it head-on. This week we’re bringing you an episode of the Radical Respect podcast. Kim and Wesley sit down with Ellen Pao, founder of Project Include, to dig into how the industry’s obsession with merit often masks deep-seated bias, exclusion, and outright harassment. Ellen doesn’t hold back as she breaks down why quick fixes (we see you, generic unconscious bias training) just don’t cut it, how unchecked bias erodes trust and psychological safety across teams, and the way Project Include is leading the charge with real strategies for change. From CEOs stepping up to own their role in DEI to addressing the messy realities of AI in the workplace, this conversation is all about building environments where everyone has a shot. Ellen’s story is packed with takeaways for anyone who’s struggled to balance compassion with calling out the tough stuff, and is ready to challenge the status quo and build workplaces where it’s better to have a hole than an asshole.

Get all of the show notes at RadicalCandor.com/podcast.

Episode Links:

• Project Include
• Data & Society — Ellen Pao
• @ekp.bsky.social on Bluesky
• Reset: My Fight for Inclusion and Lasting Change

Connect:

• Website
• Instagram
• TikTok
• LinkedIn
• Facebook
• YouTube

Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction
Kim and Wesley introduce Ellen Pao, founder of Project Include.

(00:01:37) The Genesis of Project Include
How Project Include started and its impact on improving workplace inclusivity.

(00:05:25) Challenges of Virtual Workspaces
The increase in bias and harassment in virtual work environments. 

(00:06:38) Meritocracy and the Tech Industry
The role of meritocracy in shaping tech’s culture and DEI challenges.

(00:09:24) Overcoming Resistance to DEI
Data-backed methods for fostering DEI support among skeptics.

(00:13:46) DEI as a Business Imperative
The importance of CEO involvement in creating and sustaining DEI initiatives.

(00:19:50) Balancing Morality and Market Pressure
How leaders can make ethical decisions that align with DEI principles.

(00:25:31) Governing AI in the Workplace
Key considerations for ethical and inclusive AI adoption in workplaces.

(00:28:33) Social Media’s Role in Amplifying Harm
The need for accountability in curbing online hate and misinformation.

(00:37:26) Impactful Investments in DEI-Focused Ventures
Stories of innovative ventures improving equity in healthcare and workplaces.

(00:41:27) Conclusion