Future Commerce

Live at Klaviyo London, Kunle Campbell joins Future Commerce to explore the tension between idealistic wellness brands and the realities of scaling in a capitalist system. Kunle and Phillip explore intentionality, identity formation, and how conscious consumers can navigate the cascade of marketing messages while staying true to themselves.

• Pure idealism faces scalability challenges: Growing wellness brands often must compromise their founding principles to reach broader audiences and achieve economies of scale, as demonstrated by Whole Foods' evolution from commune cooperative to mainstream retailer.
• Identity exchange drives commerce decisions: Every purchase represents an identity transaction where consumers either align with authentic values or fall prey to manufactured personas pushed by predatory marketing tactics.
• Self-knowledge enables intentional consumption: Understanding your personal predispositions (Kunle recommends DNA tests, blood work, meditation, or breathwork) allows for more conscious brand alignment and purchasing decisions.
• Consciousness awakening shifts market dynamics: Social media influencers educating consumers about ingredient transparency and wellness principles are forcing traditional retailers like Tesco to create accelerator programs for "Better For You" brands.

• [00:01:56]: "Culture is communication, it's community. It's the zeitgeist... At the core, if you go deeper into culture, I think the value system is very, very fundamental." – Kunle Campbell 
• [00:06:22]: "In order to change the world, like at scale, you're going to have to make some compromises... Pure idealism is not enough in a capitalist system." – Kunle Campbell 
• [00:19:25]: "Marketing clutter says, 'this is an identity. Claim it. Take it,' and then you lose your inner person." – Kunle Campbell 
• [00:26:35]: "Don't lose self... There are brands out there that would sort of merge with your own unique wants and needs based on what you need for yourself." – Kunle Campbell 

• John Mackey's "The Whole Story" book and Whole Foods' evolution
• Joe Dispenza meditation methodology and body scanning techniques
• Tesco's Better For You brand accelerator program

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• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

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Will systems-driven commerce be the death of our (Brian’s) peace? This week, Phillip and Brian explore how artificial intelligence is reshaping expertise, the chokehold inflexible systems have on modern life, and the meaning of the digital afterlife. Plus: learn how brands like American Eagle are balancing controversy and virality to shock themselves into relevancy while feeling minimal aftershocks.

• The ChatGPT Expert Problem: AI is enabling a new class of "nouveau experts" who cite disparate cultural theorists like Freddie DeBoer and Peter Turchin to sound authoritative, creating sophisticated-sounding but potentially hollow analysis
• Peak Inflexibility: Modern life is increasingly controlled by inflexible systems that eliminate human judgment and serendipity, from cell phone stores that can't override basic functions to restaurants requiring months-advance reservations
• One-Round Game Marketing: Brands like American Eagle are adopting political-style "one-round game" tactics, where temporary controversy and outrage generate attention without long-term brand damage, as demonstrated by Sydney Sweeney's "good genes" campaign
• The Post-Internet Brain: We're outsourcing memory, emotions, and even nostalgia to algorithms, with AI potentially eliminating the need to ask questions by providing contextual information before we realize we want it
• [00:25:55] Brian: "I believe that there is a set of business leaders out there that see ChatGPT as a way to make decisions about their business... they're sending it to an entity that effectively is confirmation bias."
• [00:24:27] Phillip: "What we found in our primary research is that TikTok doesn't show up for direct like spear fishing—that's Amazon. It doesn't show up for inspiration like window shopping—that's Instagram. And it doesn't show up for entertainment or learning—that's YouTube."
• [00:54:49] Brian: "Someday we're not going to call it the internet anymore, actually. Because it's actually an extension of our brains. It's a way for us to store information."
• [01:13:54] Phillip: "A blonde woman talking about her good genes. You’re telling me that not one person thought about this? This is perfectly engineered for outrage."

• Jack Conte on X: TikTok vs. YouTube as search engines
• Alex Greifeld on X: “One round game marketing”

• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
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• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

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The hunt for certainty is killing creativity.

Rory Sutherland, chairman of Ogilvy and the poet of persuasion, joins us live from Klaviyo London to challenge marketing's obsession with thin-tailed attribution. Brands are facing an existential crisis in an increasingly brandless, chat-interface powered world, but Sutherland believes that current measurement models are not designed to allow marketers to test, fail, learn, and grow, systematically destroying breakthrough potential.

• Technology evolves from option to obligation: Parking apps that liberated us from coin machines now trap those without smartphones, while McDonald's screen-only outlets eliminate human flexibility
• Marketing is fat-tailed, business is not thin-tailed: "10% of what you do delivers 130% of the value, but you don't know what the 10% is in advance." But marketing’s current measurement system is designed for us to fail. Attribution models punish necessary failures and do not credit long-term breakthroughs
• Interface changes redistribute power overnight: When fundamental interaction modes shift from typing to voice and stores to apps, established advantages can disappear instantly, creating opportunities for complete market disruption
• Brand value is multifarious, not monolithic: Fame, trust signals, and decision-making heuristics remain valuable even as chat interfaces challenge traditional brand expression. "People will come and find you rather than you having to find them." – Rory Sutherland
• [00:06:13] "Interface change is always disruptive, because if you change the interface within which people choose and act, you fundamentally change behavior." - Rory Sutherland
• [00:20:25] "There's a concern I always have about technology, which is the extent to which a lot of technology arrives as an option and ends up as an obligation." - Rory Sutherland
• [00:42:47] "There's a danger that what [AI is] doing is enshrining groupthink. It's taking groupthink and effectively engraving it." - Rory Sutherland

• Learn more about Ogilvy
• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

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A replay from VISIONS Summit: NYC featuring YouTuber and architect Dami Lee.

From the stage of VISIONS Summit at MoMA, Dami Lee reveals why the most chaotic spaces often teach us the most about what it means to be human. 

As a licensed architect turned YouTube storyteller with over 200 million views, she's discovered that making architecture approachable isn't about simplifying complexity, it's about finding the human stories embedded in our built environment. Through her exploration of places like Kowloon Walled City, Dami demonstrates how the most profound spaces emerge not from master plans but from organic human adaptation, creating connections and meaning through what philosophers call "rhizomic growth."

• Human framing trumps technical perfection: No matter how many hours spent making content beautiful or technically accurate, none of it matters without taking time to make it human and frame architecture from a human angle.
• Personal investment drives authentic storytelling: Topics perform best when team members have genuine personal connections to the subject matter, leading to deeper research and more compelling narratives.
• Rhizomic processes create unexpected connections: Non-linear, seemingly inefficient creative processes allow for serendipitous discoveries and cross-categorical insights that wouldn't emerge through structured approaches.
• Extremes ignite curiosity: Audiences gravitate toward architectural stories that push boundaries—like the world's densest city—because extremes reveal fundamental truths about human behavior and adaptation.

• Check out Dami Lee on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

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Get ad-free episodes and bonus content, including the full recording of this podcast, by joining Future Commerce+ at futurecommerce.com/plus

• 🆕 Access to our newest analysis feature for members, Field Notes, our retail space analysis briefing. Featuring brands like Swatch, Printemps, and Skims. 
• Access to our new Word of Mouth Index with Fairing, a brand new member benefit
• Save 15% on Future Commerce print journals and merch
• Exclusive invites to physical events, dinners, and priority invites to industry events (SXSW, Art Basel, VISIONS)
• Ad-free episodes and bonus content!

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How is the next generation redefining what it means to shop, connect, and co-create in physical spaces?

Grab a pen and get ready to take some notes because Melissa Gonzalez and her firm, MG2 Advisory, have cracked the Gen-Z code through groundbreaking new research. But make no mistake, this isn’t more one-size-fits all data about a large, and highly nuanced, cohort. This is granular research that unpacks the social, behavioral, and psychological forces impacting how different Gen Z personas shop. 

This week, we’re learning how brands can leverage powerful tools that Gen Z is already wielding to level up their physical retail experiences: nostalgia, authenticity, sustainability, and co-creation. Listen now to get Melissa’s data-driven blueprint for designing meaningful brand experiences. 

• Values vs. Value Tension: 94% of Gen Z shops with values in mind (authenticity, transparency, humility, sustainability), but economics still drive final decisions
• Co-Creation Imperative: Three out of four Gen Z consumers want to be collaborators in the brand journey, extending beyond product customization to store design, layout, and programming
• Nostalgia as Currency: Y2K and 2000s aesthetics dominate Gen Z's desire for nostalgic comfort, with apparel and fashion brands leading the charge through vintage-inspired experiences and activations
• Technology Extends Instinct: Successful retail tech either reduces friction through operational efficiency or creates deeper immersion. Anything in between feels like novelty and lacks authenticity
• [00:09:15] "The reason why it doesn't always win their wallet share is because economics still matter. But if there's a great desire for it... if a brand or retailer can get it right and enable it, there's a big opportunity there because they're helping consumers live those aspirational values." – Melissa
• [00:14:59] "Three out of four... want to be co-creators and collaborators in the brand journey. Store design, product customization... but you don't see it often in store design, I think... there's a real opportunity because you're getting validation buy in." – Melissa
• [00:28:30] "You have to have a team... you have to always understand the zeitgeist and how generations are evolving... because it's not a one-size-fits-all answer that's going to remain static." – Melissa
• [00:38:36] "What about it is going to feel more ethereal and more immersive... What are you giving people? Why are they getting out of their house? Why are they getting out of their phone? Why do they feel like they have to engage with this physical experience?" – Melissa

• New 2025 Gen Z Research
• Our Upcoming Webinar with MG2 Advisory
• The Pop-Up Paradigm book
• Retail Refined podcast
• MG2 Advisory

• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Get ad-free episodes and bonus content, including the full recording of this podcast, by joining Future Commerce+ at futurecommerce.com/plus

• 🆕 Access to our newest analysis feature for members, Field Notes, our retail space analysis briefing. Featuring brands like Swatch, Printemps, and Skims. 
• Access to our new Word of Mouth Index with Fairing, a brand new member benefit
• Save 15% on Future Commerce print journals and merch
• Exclusive invites to physical events, dinners, and priority invites to industry events (SXSW, Art Basel, VISIONS)
• Ad-free episodes and bonus content!

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Philip dials in from London to chat with “marketing mercenary” Michael Miraflor, who’s fresh off his eighth year at Cannes Lions. And after the LinkedIn Thought Leader Industrial Complex weighed in on this year’s event, he is ready to share some thoughts. In this episode, we dissect how the prestigious festival has fractured into three simultaneous conferences, each serving different masters in an industry grappling with AI anxiety, platform consolidation, and the eternal tension between craft and commercialism. Listen now if you’re also wondering, what does creativity even mean anymore?

• Cannes Lions 2025 operated as three distinct conferences simultaneously, reflecting the industry's cultural fragmentation between traditional creativity, advertising channels and platforms, and bougie networking events.
• AI seemingly dominated every conversation, with industry professionals making dark jokes about replacement theory.
• Retail media networks and tech platforms have fundamentally altered the festival's ecosystem and vibe, creating productive tension between creative celebration and commercial necessity.
• Post-festival controversies surrounding AI usage highlight our industry's evolving discourse over the role of authenticity and efficiency in creative work.
• “If you took away all of the tech companies and platforms and big agencies from the beach, what would Cannes Lions be reduced to? I don't know if it would even make enough money to sustain still having that award ceremony in 2025." – Michael Miraflor
• "It was inevitable that every other conversation that you would have would become one about AI replacement theory to a certain extent. Or, you know, jokes about how this year feels like we're all on the Titanic." – Michael Miraflor
• "I find it interesting that a lot of the criticism comes from people who have jobs in creativity that I think are quite elite jobs. In my field, I feel like we're all quite lucky to be where we are…We can be critical, and I think my job has been to be critical... But I also think that we all have some element of privilege to be able to do that kind of work." – Phillip Jackson

• The Cannes Lions AI Controversies
• MrBeast thumbnail app controversy

• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

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This week, we revisit “The Uncorkening.” A spoken-word version of our Insiders essay of the same name, this episode is one of our most popular. In it, we question some of the factors that have led to the decline of DTC and how pent-up frustration with products that cost more without delivering on their promise will soon be a vestige of a bygone era. 

It’s been three years since the episode’s first airing, but the content still resonates. This could largely be attributed to many “digitally native darlings” still struggling to maintain their positioning in a crowded market. One possible exception could be Warby Parker, a brand that has successfully evolved into an omnichannel, omnipresent brand, effectively retaining the high product quality, service, and experience that many shoppers have come to love. 

When we discuss the struggles of DTC brands, what comes to mind for you?

• “The Uncorkening” is a latent criticism that was stymied by the loudest voices in an ecosystem who didn’t feel that they had permission to speak up, has now been unleashed
• DTC models (particularly VC-backed IPO exits) have proven unsuccessful. The original promise was that DTC would remove middlemen and form a direct connection with the consumer; meanwhile, eCommerce is nothing but middlemen.  
• Many products don't live up to the hype. Another factor of The Uncorkening in DTC is that the loudest voices and advocates for DTC have often silenced criticism by playing a trump card—to critique a small brand is to criticize the founder behind the brand.
• The loudest DTC voices have quieted. As capital outcomes wither for those who had built their reputations on the examination of the DTC space, the loudest voices were silenced. Due in large part to The Great Resignation and the inaccessibility of capital in the current state of the markets, many of the most visible DTC acolytes have moved on to new projects or industries.
• What will The Uncorkening make us not want to buy next?

• Nate Poulin’s tweet outlining 12 DTC IPOs
• Immi ratings and reviews (since this essay’s launch, Immi’s score has increased to 3.4) 

• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

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Optimove’s Pini Yakuel has a mission: Free the marketer. In this final episode, Phillip and Pini bring theory into practice with Rachel Parker from FDJ United (formerly Kindred), who orchestrated a three-year organizational metamorphosis to shed their assembly-line model for the positionless approach – and become much better suited for tomorrow.

If episodes 1-4 were the philosophy, today, we bring you the playbook. Ready to set your marketing department free? Listen to the Decoded season 4 finale now. 

• Small, cautious steps often fail where comprehensive transformation succeeds.
• Anonymous surveys revealed FDJ’s teams were dissatisfied with assembly-line processes and hungry for broader responsibilities.
• AI enables faster delivery, leading to more opportunities for internal praise and success – and big boosts to team morale.
• Expertise still matters, but it's about expanding capabilities rather than rigid specialization.

• Learn more about FDJ United (Française des Jeux)

• Learn more about Optimove’s platforms
• Learn more about Positionless Marketing
• Check out Future Commerce on YouTube
• Check out Future Commerce+ for exclusive content and save on merch and print
• Subscribe to Insiders and The Senses to read more about what we are witnessing in the commerce world
• Listen to our other episodes of Future Commerce

Have any questions or comments about the show? Let us know on futurecommerce.com, or reach out to us on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We love hearing from our listeners!

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.