Insomnia Coach® Podcast

By Martin Reed, MEd, NBC-HWC, CCSH, CHES®Society & Culture Health & Fitness Mental Health Education Self-Improvement Personal Journals

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Insomnia Coach® Podcast episodes

October 29, 2021 How Jennifer moved past 18 years of insomnia by exploring her sleep-related beliefs and recognizing her own insomnia in the stories of others (#33)
Jennifer struggled with sleep for 18 years, starting when she weaned her firstborn from breastfeeding. After falling pregnant again, things got better, but when it was time to wean her second child, the cycle of poor sleep returned. As the mother of five children, Jennifer was anxious about sleep when she decided she was done having kids.
Jennifer listened to the Insomnia Coach podcast and realized that her beliefs were the root cause of her sleep problems. She felt ready to make changes to her habits and mindset to create better conditions for sleep. With the knowledge that others were experiencing similar struggles with insomnia, Jennifer became more confident in her ability to sleep and implemented changes to her behaviors and thought processes, leading to improved sleep and the ability to put chronic insomnia behind her.
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51 min
September 29, 2021How Jovana put insomnia behind her by recognizing that her insomnia wasn’t unique and that sleep is a natural process that cannot be controlled (#32)
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In 2019, Jovana experienced a night of no sleep whatsoever but she was confident that she would get some sleep the following night. However, the next night was just the same — Jovana didn’t get one minute of sleep.
At this point, she started to panic, and her anxiety was further compounded by the fact she was a new mom. Jovana started to dread going to bed. She felt frustrated. She felt lonely. Fortunately, she found the Insomnia Coach YouTube channel and the Insomnia Coach podcast and started to realize that she was not alone and that her insomnia was not unusual or unique.
Ultimately, Jovana stopped the endless sleep-related research and ongoing detective work. She stopped experimenting with medication and supplements. She started to remove herself from the process of sleep and began to accept that sleep cannot be controlled. At the same time, she committed to actions that helped her move toward the kind of life she wanted to live, even after difficult nights and even in the presence of difficult thoughts, feelings, and emotions.
As a result, Jovana regained confidence in her natural ability to sleep and is once again living the kind of life she wants to live.
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hello Jovana, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast.
Jovana Mühle:
My pleasure. Thank you, Martin.
Martin Reed:
So I’m going to start right at the beginning, just like I do with all my podcast guests. So can you just tell us when your sleep problems first began? And what do you think caused your initial issues with sleep?
Jovana Mühle:
So it first began, I think I know exactly the date, which is, it’s so weird, right? You remember some things very precisely, I think it was the 13th of December. And I think it was a weekend you can recall, and check if you’d want to check. I think it was 2019 13th of December. And it happened for me two nights in a row that I couldn’t sleep, so I really remember it’s the first time it began because before that, I would have bad nights of sleep but I wouldn’t panic.
Jovana Mühle:
And I wouldn’t react the way I did when it happened then in December, so basically, I had the feeling I couldn’t sleep. So I was laying down in my bed, I even tried to go to the couch, tried to sleep there, I just think nothing was happening. I didn’t sleep a minute, which never happened to me before. Because even if I had a bad night, and I couldn’t fall asleep, at some point and say, four or 5:00 AM, I would fall asleep, eventually. This didn’t happen then, and I didn’t know why, and then the night afterwards, I was sure I would sleep because I still had this belief sleep is natural.
Jovana Mühle:
It happens at some point, if you’re tired. It didn’t. And then it hit me really hard because I really thought there’s something wrong with me, there must be because I just had my baby a few months before. My son was born in August 2019. And I believed that maybe some, how do you say hormonal imbalance was the cause, or maybe the reason why I don’t know some. The thing is, I wasn’t informed very much about sleep. And all those things, even melatonin wasn’t a word for me.
Jovana Mühle:
I just thought there must be some chemical in your body, it allows you to sleep, and if you don’t have that, doesn’t work. So I really started thinking, I have a problem now. And it happened, so eventually, the third night I would sleep, but then I kind of I remember, I talked to some friends. And I was, can you imagine two nights in a row? Who had that? And I felt pretty lonely because I only had one friend who had it, and I think that’s one of the problems I had at this time is not knowing anyone who was going, or experiencing those things.
Jovana Mühle:
So I started to panic, I googled. And then, god, you can find anything on Google. So it happened a few nights after maybe just even a week afterwards, I couldn’t sleep again. And apparently, there was no apparent reason for me not to sleep because it’s not as if I did something different on that day. It’s not as if I overslept the days before. I couldn’t I had a baby, so it was, my baby was waking me up anyway, I was sleep deprived from my baby. So I thought this is not normal, something must be really bad with my health.
Jovana Mühle:
But the root cause, I think now, is not this hormonal thing. I really believe it was just stress, and insight, which was kind of there the whole time but I wasn’t really aware of it. And this is why when it happened again, I know now, but this is really in hindsight I couldn’t say that back then, but when it kept on happening, Christmas, I still had this, probably it was, it went on, basically until this year, beginning of this year, so kept on coming and happening.
Jovana Mühle:
And I couldn’t figure out what was the cause. But now, I would say I think it’s more stress related, and that my arousal system, as you told me is called, but this thing wouldn’t just come down. I wouldn’t calm down in the evening. And what’s interesting is, I don’t know why I wouldn’t notice that this was the cause, you know what I mean? In backwards now, I believe, god, it was so obvious, it was stress, but why would you think something’s wrong?
Jovana Mühle:
It’s very weird to me even now, to understand why somebody gets so lost with their thinking, it’s you take a wrong path, and then you.
Martin Reed:
It’s really easy to do. Did you ever have issues with sleep before that period of December 2019?
Jovana Mühle:
So I think I would say, but not a lot, I would say maybe, I don’t know, twice per year. So I would have a bad night where I would think about stuff, and then I noticed it’s already 2:00 AM, I’m still not sleeping. This is bad, I have to wake up in the morning, how I’m I going to do that, this kind of thing that. As I said four or five or even 6:00 Am, at some point, I would sleep. Eventually my brain would stop, think about those things, I guess, and then I would sleep.
Jovana Mühle:
So and this was rare, I wasn’t, I didn’t call myself insomniac. I didn’t even know really what this was, and then I started to pull myself I think insomniac now, when I had it a couple of times because it was just, I remember I was saying, but I don’t belong to those people, as if it’s something really bad. I really had this feeling, this is not me. And why is it happening to me, and I couldn’t figure it all out. And then I developed all the other problems like sleeping anxiety.
Jovana Mühle:
And I think this is the worst part because I already was anxious, because of my baby, being a new mom the whole thing. And then the sleep anxiety made it, this made my life horrible because I was dreading going to bed, even maybe just thinking about when the evening begins here, 6:00 PM already, should I go at 8:00 PM tonight to try to compensate? And this behavior began, wow. I was really I remember I was having, it was in my tummy because it’s somewhere in there to both stress ball, or something it’s holding you and I was really anxious.
Jovana Mühle:
Just thinking, Okay, I’m going to go to bed and it’s not going to work. And then what’s going to happen, I’m going to have another night without sleep. And wow, it’s frustrating. And the lonely part, feeling lonely, this component I think it was something that really wasn’t helping me because I figured when I started, when I discovered later on your podcast, your videos on YouTube, the whole class, everything.
Jovana Mühle:
This helped a lot and very fast. Just I know, I remember the first week I was watching at least five videos of yours, either hearing podcasts, or just some explanation videos, and I felt already a support just in knowing, okay, other people are having the same things, they are experiencing the same symptoms, or they are calling themselves Insomniac. So this thing, I think, is what I missed. And I’m sad I didn’t find this out before.
Martin Reed:
I think you touched on a great point about how we can just so easily get caught up in our thoughts. And a lot of it is to do with that especially that anxiety of what each night will bring. And I think something that some people listening to here will identify with, and I’m really glad you mentioned it was the fact that back in December 2019, apart from the fact that you have had a baby a few months before that, when those sleep issues kind of cropped up, there didn’t seem to be an obvious cause of them.
Martin Reed:
And that in itself can be quite concerning, right? And lead us down this rabbit hole of really starting to worry that maybe there’s a chemical imbalance, or there’s something uniquely wrong, we’ve lost that magical chemical, or that ability to sleep. And the reason I’m really glad you mentioned that is because sometimes there are obvious causes of sleep disruption, and that can be quite comforting. But sometimes there’s not and that can be where we can get caught up in our thoughts then.
Martin Reed:
But the fact of the matter is, it really doesn’t matter what the initial trigger of that sleep disruption is because we can eliminate those from our lives, there are always going to be some nights where we have difficult nights, sometimes it’s an obvious reason why, sometimes not. But it’s when we get caught up as a result of those difficult nights, and start to worry really start to feel anxious about what each night will bring, and start to modify our behaviors in response in a bit to try and protect our sleep, or to make sleep happen.
Martin Reed:
That’s when we can, the real problems can start, and that’s why it’s really helpful to kind of move away from trying to figure out the trigger, and instead just work on all those thoughts, and behaviors that can perpetuate the sleep disruption.
Jovana Mühle:
But even before I, no, after I googled obviously, first I googled, but then quite quickly I after a few months let’s say just after Christmas so it began December and I said I think 13th, so middle of December, and then I waited Christmas, it was bad. Everything was barging me. I think even already in January I went to a doctor, and okay obviously, not all doctors are bad, but her advice was pretty bad for me because the first thing she gave me was sleeping pills.
Jovana Mühle:
Obviously, not even the ones you buy over the counter, some herbs, or stuff, how do you call it it’s a drug I use, it’s like a Valerian. So not even that, she went full on, and gave me really a prescription of sleeping pills. And she was, no, if you take once per week, it’s fine. Now, obviously, this concept of I’m going to have one night of good sleep per week this is already triggering your anxiety because you think okay, I cannot do more than one because I’m going to be addicted, and it’s dangerous.
Jovana Mühle:
And I don’t know, I felt really, this was a bad idea to start with that. And the fact that she didn’t, she also said she didn’t want to test, or because I was mentioning my thought okay, probably hormonal imbalance, some chemicals, and magical chemical, it doesn’t work anymore. And she said, it’s very hard actually to, when you do a blood test, or you just want to go for a check.
Jovana Mühle:
She said, it’s quite hard to identify, where, if there is a problem really in the hormones, or something, she was also saying, there is a kind of no way to know precisely, if you really have this biological problem, or any chemical problem in your body. So this also left me okay, must be I don’t know, but it’s probably that it contributed to, it was just worse.
Martin Reed:
I think there’s two great points that you made there. The first and foremost is that we kind of sometimes can see the sleeping pills as being this kind of magical elixir, the solution to everything, but they can also come with their own issues, you said, If I’m only allowed to take them one night a week, does that mean that I’m just not going to sleep for the other six, then you’ve got this idea that sometimes they can reinforce this assumption, or this belief that we can’t sleep without some kind of external help, some external crutch.
Martin Reed:
And then just this drifting off into the detective work there’s some mystery going on, I’ve got to investigate it, is it chemicals? Is it hormones? Is it this? Or is it that, and often it’s that ongoing detective work that can really kind of trap us, and lead us down this slippery slope, and it can kind of just consume our lives, and we’re just spending every waking minute just thinking, or investigating what could be the problem here?
Jovana Mühle:
Exactly. Because for me, it wasn’t normal, that she would just prescribe those sleeping pills. I thought we need to figure out what’s the root cause, I wanted to know. So it really was you say, it really triggered my detective mode. And I kept on googling, and I thought maybe she has doesn’t know everything, I need to seek somebody who’s really professional, a generalist a doctor who really is just for sleep. But it’s funny how I didn’t think of this, how do you say TVCI?
Martin Reed:
CBT-I.
Jovana Mühle:
In French, it’s another way, but so the behavioral therapy, nobody mentioned that, she didn’t mention that.
Martin Reed:
That is a real shame, and your story’s really familiar, unfortunately, that we have this magical collection of techniques is cognitive and behavioral techniques, which is just a fancy way of saying, we can explore the thought processes that can perpetuate sleep disruption, and we can tackle the behaviors that we implement that can perpetuate sleep disruption. And when we take that kind of two pronged approach, it’s really helpful and really effective with chronic insomnia.
Martin Reed:
And it’s usually recommended as the first line treatment for chronic insomnia as well, but unfortunately, we have an issue where a lot of doctors just don’t know about it, often through no fault of their own, because the training just isn’t there most of the time. And also, we have an access problem. So even doctors that are familiar with the techniques, they don’t really have the time available to work through these techniques, one on one with their clients.
Martin Reed:
And there’s not many people they can refer these patients out to either so we have a real problem in terms of knowledge and accessibility of these techniques. And they’re not, we don’t need to shroud them in mystery. The techniques themselves are pretty straightforward, they can definitely be challenging to implement. But we don’t need to really ring fence access to them. They can be straightforward, people can implement them independently.
Martin Reed:
And if we can put all of our efforts into implementing those techniques instead of all the things that can lead us astray, this ongoing detective work, doing all that researching, or that doctor googling it can be so helpful and I like to emphasize this because we can get caught in this trap through no fault of our own, we can do everything right. We can go to the doctor, or we can look online, we can do our research but we can get trapped, or caught up because there’s a lack of information out there on the good stuff, the stuff that works and there’s a, we have challenges in terms of access to the good stuff as well.
Martin Reed:
So I think you touched upon the kind of issues that you were having it was, you would just be worrying about sleep all day long and then, we would normally expect let’s say if you didn’t have insomnia, we would normally expect after a night, or two maybe things would get back on track, you’d have those nights to catch up sleep, but it sounds that didn’t really happen for you. What were you finding was a kind of typical night? Was it issues just first falling asleep, or was it waking during the night finding it hard to go back to sleep? Or maybe it was both?
Jovana Mühle:
It was both. It started with the falling asleep, which I think was the main cause of my anxiety then because it was the worst part just dreading going to bed, but I also had and this happened, I didn’t know exactly when because it’s hard to say, because as I say I wasn’t sleeping through my night anyway because of my baby so even just breastfeeding, or just waking up to changed my baby, or something made me, sometimes I couldn’t fall back asleep, but I didn’t think about that until I had my insomnia, and then when this happened I could really notice.
Jovana Mühle:
I knew sometimes if my son would wake me up at two or 3:00 AM I wouldn’t sleep until the rest, even if I had fallen asleep first somehow, and I didn’t understand why falling back asleep it didn’t work. So I will wake up, do what I have to do and then go back to bed and then I just couldn’t sleep even if, maybe in this moment anxiety wasn’t there. So this is also why because I started to analyze because I was obviously, then conscious okay, I am stressed when I go to bed now obviously, I am stressed.
Jovana Mühle:
And I tried to do relaxation techniques, and stuff like that, and also mentioning this Valerian because I didn’t take those real sleeping pills for a long time because I was scared. And obviously didn’t work with the whole concept of I’m not sleeping five days, and I have one night what’s the point. So I quit this but then I tried to do a cure with Valerian, and this was kind of helping the time I was taking it because I felt less stressed I guess, so this is good because it’s worked on that but then the falling back asleep, falling back asleep when in the middle of the night this started not working, kind of really it was obviously well there’s something wrong now.
Jovana Mühle:
So this must be again another, you’re always kind of tried to analyze and to figure out what’s the root cause, and if something works the stressed part, it’s a bit relieved or diminished through this medication so then what’s next Why is still something wrong, god. I might not sleep at night, this is just, I don’t know, it was a very bad time so many bad memories of this, all the things I tried because it’s not the only thing after I finished three months of Valerian obviously, I went off and maybe, I think maybe for a week it was fine, kind of fine again.
Jovana Mühle:
But then I would eventually have another night where I didn’t sleep for a minute, and then I knew okay, so I’m back on this and I tried melatonin. I took it also, first of all, I figured this works. And I don’t know, in hindsight I don’t know why it worked because I don’t believe much in melatonin now after the whole experiences I had, but it did work, also maybe, how do you say, punctually so I would take it one time if I noticed I’m not falling asleep, and usually I do quite fast if I am falling asleep, it’s very fast.
Jovana Mühle:
So after 20 minutes, it’s not going to happen till, I think it’s more psychological effect they had on me, so I would just take it maybe it’s, by then it’s maybe 11 or 11:30, I would take it and still worked. And this is where I think it’s maybe a placebo effect it helped me to produce maybe my anxiety, or just it made me believe this thing could make me sleep. And I was on and off, and then again, I went to a naturopath, using naturopath, and she recommended not taking it the way I did because obviously it was already a couple months I was going this six months.
Jovana Mühle:
And she said, I think you need a cure because probably and this is where again, I fell back in my detective mode and whole, and she said, maybe you have a deficiency, or the pineal gland is not producing enough. Maybe you even have serotonin, a lack of serotonin, she was mentioning a lot of stuff there, and she didn’t really analyze or check it properly.
Jovana Mühle:
But she was saying, we don’t need to find out and run some tests, we can just take the cure you do again, three months of it, of melatonin every night, and she was melatonin too strong, you need to start with five milligrams, and you go on three months, and then you go back downwards. Basically, she felt this will teach my brain to produce it again, in case it wasn’t. And I remember I was thinking, god, we’re back again on something, and then I already knew I was dreading the moment I was to go off of it.
Jovana Mühle:
And I think it’s exactly at this point that I found out your podcasts, and your videos because I contacted you also and asked about this, how do I do that? Because I was I reduced from five and three, two, one. And then this is ridiculous, but I was taking even a quarter of one pill. So I reduced from one pill of one milligram, first, I did a half, then I had to cut into a quarter, and at the end I was still kind of biting off a little corner, this quarter of a pill and I was I’m so ridiculous, but I’m so thinking it’s I’m not going to sleep if I don’t take any.
Jovana Mühle:
So I don’t if I had this addictive profile people who are addicted to stuff easily, or just mentally thinking they need it. And, god, I couldn’t go on, and if I would, I wouldn’t sleep. So then I had my response to you. I had my confirmation. I’m not sleeping without melatonin. So what do I do now?
Martin Reed:
That whole, just listening to you describe that whole experience of sitting there and maybe we need to address the serotonin, maybe you need to have all this melatonin, maybe we need this and that, it made me start to feel anxious, just imagining myself in that situation. So I think you raised another great point there as well. And it’s when we end up taking supplements, or over the counter stuff, or anything, it could be prescription medication even, it can lead us to just it can reinforce this belief that we need something to generate sleep.
Martin Reed:
And then you said, especially if we taking it contingently, so for example, we’re not planning on taking anything tonight, we’re going to see how the night goes. And then if we do find that we’re struggling, then we might reach for whatever it is we’re taking, that can be problematic, too. Because first and foremost, we kind of setting up a little test for ourself, are we going to fall asleep pretty quickly, or are we going to fall back to sleep. So that in itself just keeps the brain a little bit more active, it has to monitor more for sleep and wakefulness, that can make sleep more difficult.
Martin Reed:
And then let’s say we do reach for whatever it is we’ve got close by, if we do then fall asleep, we’ve kind of reinforced this belief that that thing is generating sleep. If we don’t fall asleep easily, then we’re just reinforcing this belief that we’ve there’s something seriously wrong with us and that we’ve kind of lost the ability to sleep so really there’s no lasting positive outcome to these things. They can really be one of these one of these traps that we can get caught up in.
Jovana Mühle:
Interesting as you mentioned this thing of I say self monitoring, you kind of observing yourself, and trying to see if you are going to fall asleep, or not, but it happens unconsciously, right? And I didn’t know this was a thing as well. And I was trying, I remember, it happened also, maybe let’s say summer 2020. So December 2019 first time and then a few months later, I remember I had this for the first time when it’s not just this twinge normal ones you have when you fall asleep, it’s honestly my heart started racing so fast.
Jovana Mühle:
And I was feeling so alert, and stressed at the same time. I was relaxed the second before, so I didn’t know where this came from. I couldn’t, I didn’t know how to explain it, I remember I was saying this to some friends, the friend who had insomnia for example, and she didn’t have those things, but she also really like to talk much about insomnia because I think it was contributing to her anxiety as well, so I couldn’t I was lonely anyway.
Jovana Mühle:
And so I remember this feeling of just going to bed, even noticing this is the thing you’re noticing that you’re falling asleep, which normally doesn’t happen and then you have your heart, the stress, start racing and it wasn’t a physical twinge necessarily the thing you have sometimes, it was really, what’s happening my heart was pumping so fast. And luckily you describe it in your videos because this just a fact acknowledging the fact that this is a normal thing, or is a part of your brain wanting to be actually nice, and reward you, and tell you Okay, look, you’re falling asleep just after a few nights.
Jovana Mühle:
After I learned about this concept, self monitoring, I noticed it will fade off, it faded off and I didn’t have it anymore luckily. So because this was also a very bad thing, it would happen I don’t know maybe 15 times before I gave up even trying to sleep then because it was so uncomfortable.
Martin Reed:
They, I think in hindsight all these things, and we know once we have an explanation for them, it can be so reassuring, but before, we don’t know what we don’t know, right? And so if we don’t know what the explanation for these things is, it can just lead to more worry that there is something uniquely wrong, or that there’s something dangerous going on, or is really all just it’s just a manifestation it’s just a symptom of just heightened arousal, whether it’s thought based just thinking about sleeping pressure on ourselves to sleep monitoring for sleep.
Martin Reed:
Or the all the physical symptoms of heightened arousal, which is a racing heart feeling cold, feeling hot, sweaty all those things, these are all kind of normal reactions to heightened arousal it’s basically the body trying to protect us from what it sees as a threat, which is wakefulness, not falling asleep, the body can’t really differentiate between a real physical threat, and just kind of an imagined one, or just a mental threat or the reaction is the same so the body’s going to gearing us up to fight, or to run away, and that’s not really helpful when we want to be sitting there setting the stage for sleep.
Jovana Mühle:
Definitely, and not only that, I also noticed how I could fall asleep on the couch, and I was really sleepy, and you can fall asleep in the couch for a minute, and then I would go to my bedroom, and not even the part where you are fully suggest the fact that I would go into my bed, my mattress, this was already enough to make me fully awake, aroused I was just, I didn’t understand, and this is the other thing that helped understand when you explained the conditioning, or what do you call it.
Jovana Mühle:
And I think your brain has associating the fact that you’re not sleeping in your bed, so now we’re going to be awake in our bed. And it seems now, really in hindsight seems so obvious, but at back at the time it was I thought something was as you say uniquely wrong with me this is exactly the words I was using to say I have a unique problem something’s really wrong, and I’ll never find out.
Martin Reed:
I think it’s really helpful you just explaining all this, and just talking a bit about it because you said, it’s that worry that something is uniquely wrong with us, but the fact of the matter is insomnia from person to person is almost identical. So I just know from my own experience that so many people listening to this are going to be, my goodness, she is telling me, I’m hearing exactly what I’m experiencing and that in itself-
Jovana Mühle:
I found your videos, I was, god, I have this, finally.
Martin Reed:
That can be so reassuring, right? Just to realize that you’re not alone in what you’re going through isn’t unique, and that we don’t have to be looking for all the answers there. There are simple explanations to everything that you’re experiencing. See you mentioned I just wanted to go back really briefly about that, the trials, and tribulations of trying to come off that melatonin. You’re reducing the dose, you decided, because I remember you actually sent me an email about you really wanted to just get off this melatonin supplement.
Martin Reed:
And you would just go in smaller dose, tiny little nibble off the edge of the pill. But you went through that experience where when you had that night where there was no melatonin, then you have difficulty sleeping so it makes it really hard, right? So then have that confidence to maybe go a second night, or third night with no melatonin, it’s so much easier to just bring it back into our lives. So how did you shift away from that? How are you where we are today? Where I’m guessing maybe I’m assuming wrong you don’t have a big pile of melatonin pills right next to you.
Jovana Mühle:
I’m completely off since a few months, I think I stopped in February it was I guess I’m not sure exactly the months of this year. When so, there’s a thing I wasn’t paying much attention because it was, I was healing from this problem, and it was just happening smoothly. And then this when, counting exactly the days, but think I think it was beginning of the year.
Jovana Mühle:
And how I finally managed is just because I took a class honestly, so when I first I think I emailed you, or I was just I watched a YouTube videos, a few people interviews on your podcast. And this reduced the anxiety level of a lot, and I remember I would even watch before going to bed, sometimes twice the same, just to about this because it was a big problem of mine, I was really sure. Nobody has that, it’s unique, it’s very weird.
Jovana Mühle:
And just to have you say again, and again Okay, this is normal, this something that happens, and this reduced the stress level. So I remember, then I emailed you, and then you responded something very smart. It was what do you think, if you would go off melatonin now, and you wouldn’t you would force yourself to not sleep, now that you were recommending me to do that, suggesting I should note that, when you said, imagine just if you would force yourself not to sleep for five, or six nights in a row, do you think you still wouldn’t be able to sleep with your melatonin pill.
Jovana Mühle:
And I remembered this kind of triggered my motivation to really say, Okay, god, it’s so obvious just try now. And I think I kind of succeed, and maybe not the first time after this because I needed to kind of integrate this information, and probably rewatch a few videos saying always the same things, but just to accept those facts, and integrate them. And then I just, I think stress level was reduced enough, so actually, I wasn’t self monitoring me or my brain wasn’t monitoring.
Jovana Mühle:
And then I fell asleep, and it wasn’t enough after one night because I am, I think a very anxious person in general. So I was still think, okay, maybe one night, but I needed to have maybe a week of good nights to be able to build the self confidence. I think it didn’t happen after one success, it’s you need to have a lot of successes to just so that, there’s an overweight not this compared to what you’ve been experiencing since two years. So took a while, but I was watching, as I said, a couple of times, just for me, I need to have this, somebody telling me things a couple of times, so I integrate them quite well.
Jovana Mühle:
And then, it reassures me I’m not alone, or people are going through this, other people healed, or it’s not even healing, it’s, I guess, you understand things and you integrate them, and then you kind of you liberate yourself from all those beliefs. It’s not even you needed to heal, I didn’t need to heal from something, or maybe from a mental beliefs. But it’s not a healing that happened, it’s just some kind of integration of this information, and which would use this stress, anxiety, and slowly my brain stopped monitoring.
Jovana Mühle:
I think that’s what helped because it was about the falling asleep at the beginning of the night, but then in the middle of the night, sometimes I would have, again, where I couldn’t fall back to sleep, especially if it was early morning let’s say four, 5:00 AM for sure I would sleep anymore. But then again, this knowing you brought was reducing your sleep window and then I knew even before I tried to reduce it, I knew, okay, so it just means to me I’m rested, or it’s enough for tonight, and just this thing of accepting that maybe I don’t need to count eight hours on the clock to be, this helped because as I say, the first part of falling asleep was about having less stress, anxiety, not thinking of monitoring myself.
Jovana Mühle:
But this didn’t heal, or help the other problem immediately, which was fine because my worst nightmare was just going to bed. So when this was done, I was kind of okay, with sometimes just waking up at 4:00 AM or five and then I would lay in bed, but I wasn’t stressed anymore, I was, okay, maybe I’ll sleep maybe not at some point 6:00 AM, up, wake up anyway, or just and it’s fine. And we didn’t touch on that, but that was a big part of my understanding not needing to focus on those eight hours which was by the way the advice I got from the doctor because obviously, sleeping pills, but also sleep hygiene.
Jovana Mühle:
She informed me of all those things which just contributed to my anxiety again, and it wasn’t helping me so the fact that you kind of broke down all those elements of sleep hygiene was very good to just not be stressed if in the middle of night I’m not sleeping anymore, and then I tried eventually I remember I refused to do the sleep restriction because I thought since I still have a small child it’s waking me up at some point in the night, I’m not going to restrict too much because I didn’t know how to because sometimes I’ll be up anyway for twice in a night.
Jovana Mühle:
So it wasn’t eventually really going to help me, but at some point I realized Okay, if I’m always awake at five I could easily go maybe to sleep One hour later, and I’ll wake up maybe at say, you know what I mean? I did a bit of the sleep restriction, but not forcing it too much and eventually, I will still sleep maybe eight or nine hours because I’m quite tired in general and my child, I guess and then some nights I do sleep nine hours, and it’s fine, but some others I’m happy awake at five 5:30, and my day begins and it’s even a bonus time, so I’m not stressed about this part anymore for sure.
Martin Reed:
I think there’s kind of a common theme in everything that you’ve mentioned there, and I think it comes down to control, our desire to control sleep whether that’s through medication, or supplements, or trying to fall asleep trying to get eight hours of sleep, trying to sleep, and naturally wake up at say 7:00 AM instead of 5:00 AM.
Martin Reed:
Implementing all these different sleep hygiene techniques, or rituals all of these things really can just be distilled down into we’re trying to control sleep, and as you can probably tell just now looking back you’re able to do that it all just comes down to our desire to control sleep which is not helpful, it just increases arousal, makes sleep more difficult because sleep ultimately is something we can’t control, it’s a natural process and it’s when we try and get involved in the process that we tend to see sleep becoming more difficult than it needs to be.
Jovana Mühle:
Definitely and not to mention it, if I had a very bad night which means for me back then I wouldn’t sleep at all, I remember I would I was calling in sick, or not for work, but I just some things I had planned even with some friends, or nice stuff just easy easygoing things those ones I would cancel especially if it’s on the night following, on the evening following my bad night so I was no, I need to catch up on that sleep, so I go to bed extra early and it’s funny because I think from all the things that I’ve been through with insomnia where I’m now so I’m definitely I’m going to bed whatever time I want.
Jovana Mühle:
I’m not even thinking about it I’m falling asleep immediately as I always was before so I feel completely cured, but the only thing is sometimes I notice, and it’s interesting especially with the friend thing if I have friends over, or the dinner goes a bit longer, or something and sometimes I have thought about how I used to think before. So it’s maybe already 11:00 PM which is a bit late for me because I’m getting some time to get to bed, shower everything so I know I already think about it okay won’t be before midnight until I’m home showered, and in my bed.
Jovana Mühle:
And I still have this, in the morning I have I only have six hours a lot of sleep because I decided to have fun so I still have this little thing sometimes coming up in my mind and thinking okay, but usually what I do then, and I think it’s a very good recommendation for if you are cured, and you still have these problems at some point. I immediately think of everything I’ve learned Okay, so we’re not going to control sleep, we’re not going to try it will happen naturally and luckily I had I think enough months behind your success where it didn’t happen at all anymore.
Jovana Mühle:
So I kind of related that I don’t think that okay, I’m not controlling anything and look it works, it’s just natural, and just look repeating those things helped me.
Martin Reed:
I think what was really helpful that was just the way you were talking about, you’d sometimes call in sick after difficult nights, or you’d even cancel plans with friends. Those kinds of things are completely understandable why we would do them, but what typically then happens is, what are we doing instead. So let’s say for example, we call in sick from work, now we’re just kind of sitting at home, we don’t have any kind of distractions, what are we going to do, we’re going to start probably thinking, or worrying about sleep, maybe firing up Dr. Google again.
Martin Reed:
Maybe even just trying to take a nap, maybe we’re going to be more sedentary. All these things can kind of make us feel more fatigued, can generate more anxiety, more worry. And when we remove good stuff from our lives, those plans with friends, we reinforce this connection between difficult night equals difficult day. And definitely difficult nights can make the day is more difficult. But we also have quite a lot of control over the quality of our days independently of sleep. Often, what happens to us during the day, or what we do during the day, has more of an influence on the quality of our day, rather than this being completely 100, predetermined by how the night goes.
Martin Reed:
So if we’re able to still go into work, maybe or if we’re able to still go out with friends and carve out our days as normally as possible, can really help us come to that realization that a difficult night might not be the end of the world, it might not make the next day a complete disaster, there’s still an opportunity to be productive, or to have some good moments, or even just some, okay moments, after difficult nights, and then that in turn, maybe then we might put a little bit less pressure on ourselves to sleep, and feel be less likely to get caught up in all those anxious sleep related thoughts.
Jovana Mühle:
That’s not so easy, I have to say, because I remember, I think I can only now I can apply what you’re saying, and not cancel something, because I have this information in the background but if I would do that I tried sometimes I was okay, so good. I’m going anyway. And that evening it was COVID time anyway, so it wasn’t partying, or whatever it was more just staying up late at some friends, or having friends over.
Jovana Mühle:
And I remember I couldn’t enjoy it as much as I used to, you know what I mean? Even if I first have to do that, I will still have the anxiety because then you are really, this means I’m not going to bed before, maybe 1:00 AM, or which this is also the hard part, even if you shouldn’t cancel, how do you still enjoy something will bring some stress, and anxiety, and worrying.
Martin Reed:
Definitely, I think what can be helpful there is to kind of ask ourselves a question, and it will be something along the lines of, is this behavior helping me live the life I want to live? So for example, if you’re tempted to cancel those plans with friends, is canceling those plans helping you live the kind of life you want to live? If it is, then that’s fine. You don’t need to make, then cancel those plans. If it’s not, then why would you want to cancel those plans?
Jovana Mühle:
Okay, interesting. I think I’m going to keep this one because, as I say, sometimes even out by the end of an evening, or something, and if it’s late, I would still have those thoughts it’s late just this. I think this is so funny, because I think they’re really groups of people, either you’re born with this, or have to figure it. May be educate, get it from your parents, or from I was thinking did I get this from my parents? I think I did because I remember my dad was always saying, you need to go to bed.
Jovana Mühle:
I was maybe three, or four, or five I don’t know exactly because my memory is a bit low. But it was you need to go to sleep now because otherwise you’ll be very tired tomorrow. And I think this is something that it’s ingrained, or how do you say it’s a seed they put in you voluntarily, or unconsciously, but it can have this thing. It’s why I say there are two groups of people there was who don’t even look what time it is when they go to bed. And even if they need to wake up at five 6:00 AM very early to go to work. If there’s a nice movie, something on the TV or something they’re watching, it’s 2:00 AM they don’t care.
Jovana Mühle:
They just go to bed when it’s finished, you know what I mean? Those people I was never this type of people anyway, so I was always okay, so I have to allow myself to be able to sleep at least seven, eight hours. So this thing I think it comes on already from my childhood, or something either my parents kind of taught me somehow because I think, the next day if you don’t sleep enough, you’re it’s bad things are happening to you. I think this is why I say there are two groups of people, I really believe.
Jovana Mühle:
If you are already in this category of somebody who’s very conscious about how many hours you should sleep, and you kind of have this tendency to be worrying more about it.
Martin Reed:
Definitely and we see that in this common model that we have to describe the development of chronic insomnia, we call it the three P model. And so we start off with these predisposing factors, and some of them it might just be a different belief system about sleep we might just have place more importance on sleep, we might have been raised in a family where sleep was something that was talked about a lot, and maybe we were told that we must go to bed now, you must get out of bed now, you must get a certain amount of sleep.
Martin Reed:
We might have more anxiety, we might be really strong night owls, or really strong morning larks, so we might be more susceptible to some sleep disruption. So I think there are definitely some factors there that can predispose us, or kind of lift us closer to that bar of insomnia. And then we have I might as well talk about the last two now. So otherwise, people will ask me can we have the second P which is just the precipitating events, whatever triggered that temporary sleep disruption, that initial sleep disruption, it can be really hard to pinpoint that.
Martin Reed:
And it’s often not very helpful, because we can’t eliminate every potential source of sleep disruption from our lives. Normally, more than nine times out of 10, our sleep just gets right back on track, all by itself, but when it doesn’t, it’s almost always down to that last P, which is these perpetuating factors, which is all the changes to our thought processes around sleep, and all the behaviors that we completely understandably implement in a bid to improve our sleep, to control our sleep, to protect our sleep, that actually backfire on us, and make sleep more difficult.
Martin Reed:
Because all those thoughts and behaviors can end up lowering our natural sleep drive, our drive to sleep, they can disrupt our body clock, and they can lead to heightened arousal. And when we have high levels of arousal, we usually need to generate more sleep, try be awake for even longer to help overpower that arousal, and generate sleep.
Jovana Mühle:
It’s funny because I remember at some point I was, yes, obviously, not as some point. During the whole time, I was talking to my husband, and tried to get some support from him, which obviously wasn’t easy for him because he belongs to this other group of people. So no predisposition, nothing that triggered, he never had this insomnia thing, and he even because I was thinking at some point, okay, maybe this relaxation, or you have a lot of, what is the name, AMSR, those videos where people either cut through some sponge with a knife, very slowly, or something going on with some little pearls, or it can be sand.
Jovana Mühle:
I don’t know you usually see on those videos on YouTube fingers moving through some material. And it’s kind of relaxing to watch those but I remember, I was trying different things just to relax before bed. And I remember I asked him, do you know sleep is something special, I asked him, his face was he didn’t know what to tell. He was you just close your eyes and you go to bed.
Jovana Mühle:
And this also helped a little bit, to kind of realize what, or to validate what you were saying in your videos, being sleep is natural, and there is no need to control anything around it. And it happens naturally. And this was kind of a validation because for those kinds of people belonging to this other group, where they’re just naturally good sleeper they’re not doing anything. And it helped me to let go a bit of this wish to control everything because it wasn’t working obviously.
Martin Reed:
It can be I think, that can be really powerful is just asking someone who we know doesn’t have any issues with sleep. What’s your secret? What do you do to make sleep happen? And I get emails from people, how do I make myself fall asleep? What do I do when I get into bed to make sleep happen? We can, it’s that very act of trying that is the challenge, that is the obstacle to sleep happening, that the less we get involved, the easiest sleep becomes.
Martin Reed:
And I think that something else you mentioned, which I think is really worth emphasizing is that even today, sometimes if you’re out late, for example, you might think, if I stay out, this might mean I’ve only got six hours left to get sleep, or less time. And I think that the reason I emphasize that is because that’s normal and natural, it’s just the brain looking out for us, our brain is kind of hardwired, our brain is hardwired to protect us at the end of the day.
Martin Reed:
So it’s always going to consider what the worst possible scenario might be. It’s kind of we were living in a cave, and we see a bunch of people from a tribe that we didn’t know way off in the distance, the brain, the person that passed on their genes successfully, their brain told them don’t go down there, we don’t know those people stay in the cave. The brain of the person that didn’t get to pass down their genes probably said, go down. We don’t know who those people are, let’s go say hi to them, went down there probably got boiled in a big cauldron and eaten.
Martin Reed:
So our brain is, we are all here today, every single one of us because our brain is really cautious. It wants to give us the worst possible outcome in our mind because that’s its protection mechanism. It’s always going to be doom and gloom priority number one, that’s how it protects us. So we don’t want to prevent that from happening. We don’t want to try and push those thoughts away, or fight them or avoid them because it’s futile. It’s just our brain trying to protect us, we’re always going to have thoughts, some of them are going to be happy nice thoughts, some of them are going to be unpleasant thoughts, but they are just thoughts, so we don’t have to react to them.
Martin Reed:
We don’t have to fight them. We don’t have to try and avoid them. Sometimes it’s helpful to just recognize there’s that thought, I’m only going to have five hours to get to sleep tonight, but here I am out doing things that are important to me, that are meaningful to me, that are enriching my life. Maybe that’s worth more than getting an extra hour, or two of sleep tonight.
Jovana Mühle:
This is good. I’m going to keep this for me for if it helps again because I was thinking if those thoughts begin, and you engage in this, when you’re really, I was thinking, Okay, anxiety might come back. And this is when I’ll be again maybe self monitoring my sleep, or something this. So it’s good to say this, and emphasize on this that you should not engage, you just acknowledge Okay, this is a thought and not try to too much think, okay.
Jovana Mühle:
So anxieties may be coming back, or maybe Okay, I’m going to be aroused now, as soon as I go to bed. My arousal system would be not aroused, you know what I mean. My arousal system will go on, and I will all these symptoms we usually have. So this is why I think this is a very difficult part in not perpetuating your problem even if it happens once in a while here and there, just I think what you said, not engaging too much, with this thought just acknowledging it. Because what I do now, obviously, I do have sometimes trouble falling asleep, but it’s very rare, it may be happen only twice in the last couple of months.
Jovana Mühle:
And what I did is when I noticed, and this is also something I had from your online course, was if you feel bad, if you’re anxious, or angry, or even frustrated, any bad emotion you might have while you are lying in bed, then you should get out of it. And this is what I do, and I practicing this, from where I am now, this is great. So I would just stand up, go out of my bedroom, go down, maybe even watch some TV, which also was interesting because from a sleep hygiene, you should not do that, or they say you shouldn’t. But actually, when you are an insomniac are struggling with so many issues, you just do that, and your distress and you won’t think about your insomnia which is your main problem I think.
Jovana Mühle:
So I go down in the living room, and I would watch maybe some TV, or even on my phone I actually don’t read I do something else. I have a book there so if it happens, I could just read, and usually just falling asleep there will solve my problem meaning I will wake up maybe after an hour, or two because I know either the TV is still on, or my light is on, and my book is on me, or you know what I mean? I just fall asleep for, slept a few hours. And then this is something I cannot explain I think it’s due to the fact that I’m relaxed then I go back to bed because I think okay, it’s more comfortable than my couch.
Jovana Mühle:
So I do this, I go back even if it’s already 4:00 AM, or something, I go back, and I always fall back asleep. And I’m thinking, wow, this is interesting. This shows just the fact that if you’re thinking about even your stress, and this pressure you’re putting on yourself doesn’t work, just moving up, even walking, going up the stairs, where you think I might be wide awake now. Not at all. I think I fall asleep in a second, and this is another validation for me that it’s just natural, and you really don’t need to think about it, control it, just let go of all those things you’re doing.
Jovana Mühle:
Going back to my bedroom, the stress is gone. Because I know, because there’s this kind of knowing, I can sleep my body can do that. So actually, I’m just going to go back and it works.
Martin Reed:
Exactly, if you can sleep on the couch, then you can sleep anywhere. So it shows that you can sleep if you’re one of these people that you recognize you’ve got that really high conditioned arousal, where you seem to be able to sleep on the couch, but you can’t sleep in bed essentially, you’re into bed wide awake again. Well, this just shows that maybe it’s an arousal, an anxiety issue, rather than a sleep issue, because after all, you are recognizing that you’re able to sleep somewhere else.
Martin Reed:
And so it shows that you can sleep and everyone can sleep as long as you’ve been awake for long enough. So, I think that’s helpful. And just having that plan in place, we said we don’t have to react to all these thoughts that race through our mind. They can be unpleasant, they can make us feel uncomfortable, but we can also have a plan in place. So if being in bed really starts to feel unpleasant we’re tossing and turning. We just don’t feel good, conditions don’t feel right for sleep. Then we might as well get out of bed and just do anything that might make being awake a bit more pleasant compared to staying in bed, and struggling.
Martin Reed:
And that could involve watching TV, might involve reading doesn’t really matter too much what we do because our goal isn’t to make sleep happen, because we can’t control sleep, it’s just to make being awake, a bit more pleasant. But it comes with that bonus that we’re not reinforcing that conditioned arousal, we’re not reinforcing that association, or that idea that the bed is an awful place to be because we’re getting out of bed whenever it doesn’t feel good to be in bed. And that can be really helpful.
Martin Reed:
So I know I’ve taken a lot of your time, and I’m really grateful so I’m just going to kind of get to the last question which is the one that I like to ask everyone, and that’s this if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and feel as though they’ve tried everything that beyond health, they can’t do anything to improve their sleep. What would you tell them?
Jovana Mühle:
Watch this podcast, watch the videos I would tell them, honestly I would tell them to get informed about all the things we just mentioned in this episode, but get informed about how sleep is natural, how it happens naturally, how they, this knowledge it seems so obvious to some people, and you need to go back it’s something so simple and obviously to go back to this. So I would honestly try your course which is great.
Jovana Mühle:
This is what I thought because I was already anticipating what will happen if this doesn’t work, we kind of thinking one step forward and I was thinking okay, so if the online insomnia coach doesn’t help me, I’ll get someone in person, I thought maybe this I need this contact, this is the next step. So maybe if you feel online stuff don’t really help you then definitely do the CBT-I therapy, the cognitive therapy, I would do this.
Jovana Mühle:
And it’s difficult to say because if you had this since your whole life, it’s also hard I can understand how hard it is to imagine a different way of living, or being regards to your sleep because for me I could relate to how it was before it happened two, or three years before that. So I had the goal of kind of going back to this detached, just relaxed person I was regarding sleep, and if there is where maybe I don’t know if you’re really struggling since you’re a kid, or a teenager, or something. I guess it’s really important to have somebody to help you, or follow you, a coach, you basically with this, and to know that you’re not alone.
Jovana Mühle:
I would say this is one really important thing, knowing that there are other people struggling, and maybe even people who are not willing to talk about this because they know that this triggers them, or contributes to their own anxiety, and which is something I couldn’t understand, and now I do a bit. And I think this is important if you have those people so find someone else maybe who can talk to you about this, and use those platforms. You also have I think one, I didn’t use this one, but I think there’s a forum, or something where you can also ask questions, and talk to other people, and have this I think this helps to feel supported to not be lonely. And to be reminded you’re not having a uniquely wrong issue.
Jovana Mühle:
It’s something, insomnia is very similar, and it’s natural, this word, it happens natural sleep happens naturally, everybody can sleep this is you’ve been printed out I was thinking, also I did this on my fridge you can print it out somewhere, put it in there have a constant reminder of those things until you integrate them when you’re breathing, your body you really have the knowing from the inside, not just somebody telling you need to kind of really integrate this information.
Jovana Mühle:
And I think then you’re really cured because I think everybody can be cured. It’s obviously everybody can sleep, it’s natural. It’s funny, I wish I had all this information when it started because I would have saved a lot of money buying my pills, and everything I did consultations, and would have been sleeping better earlier. So don’t waste your time trying other things just.
Martin Reed:
I think I don’t, that’s something I hear a lot is I wish I’d found out about all of this sooner. It’s very common that people feel that way. And obviously it’s understandable but I think the great thing is, the past is the past, but what matters is the present, and now you do know all these techniques. And just talking to you, you can just tell that your whole relationship with sleep has just changed, but if sleep issues ever happen again in the future, you’re in a completely different place now.
Martin Reed:
You know way more about sleep, you know specific techniques that have proven to be helpful, you know you can just pull them out of your back pocket, and just implement them again if needed. So maybe you’ve come out of this even stronger, you’re now more resilient, more confident. So maybe in a way maybe it’s a bit of a stretch, but maybe there is even a glimmer of a silver lining to this whole experience.
Jovana Mühle:
I believe in that I’m working actually as a healer, energetic work, and stuff this. And I do believe that all experiences have actually a good purpose for us. We learn something from it, even the bad stuff, so I would take away, this is definitely.
Jovana Mühle:
And even just by talking to some friends, I didn’t know they had this, and I recommended also your podcasts, and videos, and everything. And I think even just being able to help other people who are maybe not talking, but still, 9:00 PM thinking I need to go to bed, and everything’s a bit stressed around this bedtime thing there’s helping others.
Martin Reed:
That’s great. All right, well, I think that’s a great note to end on, so thanks again for being such a great guest, and sharing your experience, it’s been great to talk to you, Jovana.
Jovana Mühle:
Thank you for having me.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course right now.
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1 hr 8 min
August 26, 2021How Cindy tackled the insomnia that appeared after her baby was born by accepting nighttime wakefulness and eliminating safety behaviors (#31)
Listen to the podcast episode (audio only)
Cindy developed postpartum depression shortly after her daughter was born and was prescribed medication to help her sleep. The medication seemed to work at first but Cindy soon found that it wasn’t helping and this led to more anxiety and more sleep difficulties.
Cindy thought that her brain was broken and started to implement lots of different safety behaviors in a bid to get her sleep back on track. After trying to eliminate all the possible causes of her insomnia, Cindy was continuing to find sleep difficult.
Fortunately, Cindy realized that it was all the effort she was putting into sleep and all the behaviors she was implementing in a bid to protect her sleep and create perfect conditions for sleep that were keeping her insomnia alive.
Cindy started to accept the possibility of nighttime wakefulness and the reality of nighttime wakefulness when it occurred. She took steps to make nighttime wakefulness more pleasant and took comfort in the fact that nights of less sleep build sleep drive and increase the likelihood of sleep on subsequent nights.
Ultimately, Cindy stopped putting pressure on herself to sleep. She stopped striving for sleep, she stopped putting effort into sleep, she stopped trying to fight or avoid sleep-related anxiety, and she started to recognize that all the anxious thoughts produced by her brain were just that — thoughts. Nothing more and nothing less.
Today, Cindy doesn’t take any sleep medication and she is sleeping well. Perhaps one of the biggest insights she shared is that she no longer uses sleep itself as a measure of her success. In Cindy’s words, it’s our relationship with sleep that is the true measure of success.
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hi, Cindy. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast.
Cindy Xia:
You’re welcome. Thanks for having me here.
Martin Reed:
It is great to have you on. I’m really excited for everything that we’re going to be talking about. Let’s start at the beginning. Can you just tell us a little bit about when your sleep problems first began, and what you feel caused those initial issues with sleep?
Cindy Xia:
So it started when I had Feena in October last year. And I had a great pregnancy, a great birth. I felt really good. Feena was actually a pretty good baby. And for the first few days I was actually still doing okay. I was really sleep deprived from looking after her, but I had no problems just passing out whenever I had the chance. And then around a couple of days in, I just remembered feeling really off, really jittery and just feeling like I couldn’t switch off. And now I think back, it was sort of probably the beginning of my postpartum depression, but I felt it as anxiety. And so it sort of built and built and built to the point where I couldn’t sleep anyway. And then around nine days postpartum, I had a really scary mental health crisis, where I think the cumulative effects of the sleep deprivation actually made me hallucinate. And I had this really scary…
Cindy Xia:
I thought it was a psychotic episode. I’m not sure what it was. But I was lying in my bed, trying to nap. And for some reason I thought my whole house was floating in the clouds. I wasn’t dreaming, I believed it. And I just remember thinking, “Oh no, something’s wrong with me. I need to get help.” So then anyway, long story short, the crisis team was called. They came in and then they looked at me and they said, “Well, you’re not psychotic.” And I was like, “Oh, thank goodness.” And they said, “But you really, really, really need to sleep, because sleep deprivation is torture, and it can drive people crazy. You have to sleep. So let your mum look after your baby for the night. Here’s some sleeping pills. Go and sleep for eight hours and go.”
Cindy Xia:
So I was very relieved. I was just like, “Oh, it’s just sleep. Easy. I’m super tired.” And so that night it was fine, I was knocked out for eight hours and I felt good the next day. And then I noticed something over time. I started to notice that it was harder and harder to fall asleep at night, even though I knew my baby was with my mum, I knew that she was okay and that they were giving me quetiapine for sleep. And I knew that the amount of quetiapine I was taking, it should be enough to knock me up. But I think there was one night where it didn’t knock me out, and I was so freaked out. I thought, “Oh my gosh, something is happening in my brain. Why can’t I sleep even with these drugs?”
Cindy Xia:
Yeah. And then it got to the point where I think it was also the anxiety from my hormones, it was also making it very hard to sleep as well. So yeah, it was pretty traumatizing. And it got to the point where Feena was actually sleeping quite well. She would sleep four or five hour blocks quite early on. And the big irony was that she was sleeping, but I wasn’t sleeping. It was quite fun. So yeah, that’s how it started. It started with a mental health crisis.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So do you feel that part of the problem was maybe you just weren’t expecting sleep disruption, or maybe you were expecting some sleep disruption, but when it was combined with everything else that was going on, it just kind of made the whole reaction just even more intense?
Cindy Xia:
Yeah, I think I wasn’t expecting any sleep disruption, at least not in the form of insomnia. Because I had expected to be sleep deprived because everyone tells you a baby… well, you don’t even sleep when you have a baby. If you don’t sleep, you don’t wake up. So I expected that, but I just thought if you’re sleep deprived, you will sleep so much easier. So I thought I would have no problem sleeping. And I actually had no problem sleeping in the beginning when I was still feeling quite good, but I did not expect to be so wired. That’s how I felt tired but wired in the early days.
Cindy Xia:
Again, I think that was hormonal. And I don’t think I could’ve slept even if I tried. But back then, it just made me panic because I thought the insomnia was… Basically, I just thought my brain was broken. And then what was scary was that even after being Feena was sleeping well, and even after my hormones seemed to be getting better, that insomnia actually stuck around. Yeah, that’s when I knew I actually had a bit of a problem.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So I think a lot of people listen to this are just going to identify with a lot of what you said, regardless of if they’re new parents or not, especially that phrase you used where we can feel tired, but wired. We really feel that strong sense of fatigue or sleepiness, but we’re just so wired, it seems to be really difficult to sleep.
Martin Reed:
So with that in mind, I think many people will probably also recognize that, well, there’s a clear and obvious trigger for some sleep disruption here, the new baby. Most of the time when we experience some sleep disruption, our sleep just gets back on track all by itself once we’ve adapted to whatever that trigger is, or got used to it, or we’ve adapted. But in your case, it didn’t. Like you said, Feena started to sleep well, but you were still struggling, even though that wasn’t the obvious trigger or the obvious factor now for that sleep disruption. So with that in mind, what do you think it was? Why do you think you continue to struggle with sleep even when your daughter was clearly no longer the primary cause of that sleep disruption?
Cindy Xia:
I think because it was the first time in my life that I struggled with sleep in this way, because in the past I was a pretty good sleeper, but I would not be able to sleep if, say I was sharing a room with someone. That was my thing. I just couldn’t share a room, and I would know I would have a bad night. But I knew if I could sleep alone, I would be fine because I didn’t feel any pressure. But it was like after having Feena and after going through all that craziness, it was almost like that sleeplessness had crept into even when I was sleeping alone. And I felt like I had no more safety behaviors to go back into. Because I was sleeping alone, my baby was in a different room. She was with my mum. And that was really frightening, because I thought, “Well, in the past if I had problems sleeping, I could just move to a different room or tell that person to go away. But now I can’t sleep and I don’t know why. I don’t know why I can’t sleep, and I don’t know what to do about it.” So I guess it was a sense of helplessness and not knowing why this was happening.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So you mentioned that in the short term you were on sleeping pills, found them helpful at first, but then it felt like they just stopped working. I think people will probably identify with that as well, that experience. What kind of other things did you try at that point in a bid to improve your sleep?
Cindy Xia:
Quite a few things. So the first thing was, I thought that my baby was a trigger for my sleeplessness. So I thought, “Okay. I can’t keep her in the same room, because I’m probably waking up to all the noises,” so that’s why I moved her out of the room. It was coming to summer when Feena was a newborn, so it was getting quite warm. And so I thought, “Okay, I read that elevated body temperatures makes it harder to sleep.” So I thought, “Okay, I’m going to sleep, drag my mattress downstairs under the air-con, blast it at 20 degrees and try to sleep.” I thought… Oh, there were loads of things. I thought, “Oh, blue light is bad. Don’t use your phone after dark. Don’t even look at it. Don’t even touch it. Don’t even think about it. Don’t drink tea,” even though I water down my tea like five times before I drink it, but, “Don’t drink tea because that bit of caffeine is going to keep you up for five hours.” So I tried to eliminate all the possible causes of sleeplessness, basically. It didn’t work.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think a lot of what you’ve described there are what we consider these sleep hygiene techniques or rules, whatever you want to call them. And I think people with insomnia are experts on sleep hygiene. They’re probably the most hygienic sleepers are people struggling with sleep that you could ever imagine. And I really think that sleep hygiene, especially by itself, just really isn’t helpful for people with insomnia, because I think it just draws even more attention on sleep, and leads us to put in more pressure on ourselves to sleep. And now we have this huge list of rituals. So not only are we struggling to sleep and desperate for sleep, we now feel that we have to add these 10 different rituals onto our days and our nights.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. And if one of the conditions is not quite right, then that adds more anxiety to it as well.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, exactly. So I think you mentioned that you found this one specific video on the YouTube channel, that you found really helpful. And it’s kind of like your first step, that light bulb moment. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that video is about, and how you identified with it, and why you found it helpful?
Cindy Xia:
Yeah. So as with many people struggling with sleep, I scoured Dr. Google and Dr. YouTube, and looked everywhere. And a lot of the results were just sleep hygiene things. And I just thought, “I’m trying all these things, it’s not really working.” And then I came across your channel. I’m not sure exactly what terms I looked up, probably how to fall asleep or something, quick, without medication. And I came across your video, which was Letting Go of Sleep Efforts and Safety Behaviors. And I don’t know, there was something about it that was just so counterintuitive to everything that I was reading online, because everything I was reading online was just more sleep efforts, basically. But your one was the complete opposite, saying don’t even try. In fact, those things would actually make you insomnia worse. And the only thing that can help you sleep is just staying awake long enough and just being calm enough before sleep, basically. And I just thought, “Oh great. This is finally… I don’t have to do anything. I’m good at doing that.” So I just decided to do nothing. And that first night, actually, I slept straight away that first night. And it was really good.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. Yeah, I think that is a big thing. And I think it’s almost extension of this idea of the sleep hygiene rituals. They draw more attention to sleep. We’re doing all of these things in an attempt to make sleep happen, but at the end of the day, sleep is something we can’t control. And it’s often when we try and control it, when we try and put all that effort into sleep, that sleep becomes more difficult or more elusive. So if we can focus our attention on maybe just creating good conditions for sleep to occur, like only going to bed when we really feel sleepy enough for asleep, being active during the day, as much as we can. Those kinds of things are way more helpful than trying to directly control sleep or directly put effort into sleep, because that really just makes things more difficult.
Cindy Xia:
Doesn’t work at all.
Martin Reed:
But at the same time, I think it is important to emphasize that it’s completely understandable why we would do all these things, because everything in life responds positively to effort, sleep is the exception to that rule. We aren’t to know that until we put all this effort in and it kind of backfires on us. So I’m really keen to just get the message out there that if you do identify yourself as being in this struggle, putting all this effort into sleep, and you’re finding that nothing’s improving, that’s understandable. It doesn’t mean that there’s something seriously wrong with you. It’s not you, it doesn’t mean you’ve got this different, more virulent strain of insomnia. It’s all completely understandable and predictable why you’re still struggling. And it’s probably because you’re caught up in that struggle. So if we can shift away from that, that’s often when we start to notice those improvements.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. And I think, actually, insomnia is actually really common. And I would be surprised if a lot of people don’t have it, because I think it’s a sign that you are human. We naturally worry about things, and we naturally try to protect ourselves against or react against something that is frightening us, or something that seems out of our control. So I think, yeah, instead of thinking something’s wrong with me to have insomnia, I think that’s normal. Well, it’s not ideal, but it’s not surprising.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, definitely. And I think there’s also a difference too, between temporary more short-term sleep disruption, because that is definitely a part of life. There’s nothing we can do to prevent difficult nights or sleepless nights. That’s just part of being human. And that is a difference between what we consider to be chronic insomnia, the longer term problem. That longer term chronic insomnia is typified by whatever that initial trigger was, is probably not even present anymore. Now our issue is more to do with a change to how we think about sleep, and how we react to our thoughts, and any behaviors we have implemented in an attempt to understandably improve our sleep, but have backfired and made conditions worse for sleep. A common example would just be spending huge amounts of time in bed to generate more sleep, but really all we end up doing is just generating more wakefulness.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. Yes. I was doing a bit of that in the beginning, because when you have a child sleep becomes more valuable than gold, which there’s your sleep pressure right there. And so whenever she slept at night, whether it’s at 10:00, or at 9:00, or 11:00, I’ll be like, “Okay. Right. It’s time for me to go to bed and make the most of this.” But actually normally, because I’m normally a night owl and I normally sleep at quite atrocious hours, like 1:00, or 2:00, or 3:00. So my circadian rhythm was already not helping at the same time.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So one thing you touched upon is you saw this video and then it kind of clicked about putting effort into sleep, and safety behaviors, doing things to try and protect our sleep. And I think you mentioned that you just became more accepting of being awake at night. You just learned to be okay with having difficult nights, okay with feeling the effects of a night of insomnia during the day. This is a big challenge faced by people with insomnia. How do we accept this? How do we become okay with difficult nights?
Martin Reed:
So I’m really keen to hear your thoughts on that. How were you able to kind of recondition yourself to be accepting of wakefulness, and not see sleep as something you had to battle with?
Cindy Xia:
It’s a process. It does not happen overnight. And the first night that I saw your video, I slept while there not because I was obviously very tired. But the process of accepting wakefulness for me took many months, I think, because it’s one thing to understand it intellectually and go, “Oh yeah, that makes sense. I just have to accept it.” And it’s another thing for your body and your mind to follow, because if you’ve been primed to fear something, it’s very hard to uncondition it. It’s possible, but it’s very, very hard.
Cindy Xia:
So for me, I focused a lot on number one, was just realizing that I don’t have to sleep, because in the past, when I was sleeping on my own, and I could sleep whenever, I never thought, “Oh, I’m going to sleep now,” when I go to bed. I always thought, “Oh, I’m just going to lie here, think about a few things, and look at my phone, and close my eyes.” And I never thought, “I’m going to try to sleep. I’m going to try to sleep.” And I always remembered that back then, I would think, “If I can’t sleep, I’m just going to get up and read a book.” I’ve always believed this my whole life, I was going to do that.
Cindy Xia:
But obviously, when I had a baby, I just thought, “I feel like reading a book would be wasting this precious sleep time.” But then realizing that actually, I can just get up and read a book. I’m not tied to this bed. No one is watching me. It doesn’t matter. So that kind of alleviated some of the pressure to try to sleep when I’m lying there. And the other thing was, I guess, dealing with the brain-deadness the next day. I think what really helped was when I was watching your videos, you talked about sleep drive. And firstly, that’s a great name for being completely trashed, that’s basically how I felt. I just think, “I have great sleep drive.” And so it just turned that feeling into a positive thing rather than something that’s negative.
Cindy Xia:
It made me think like, “Oh, it’s okay. I’m just collecting sleep drive, so tomorrow I could sleep extra well. And if not tomorrow night, then the next night. It’s fine.” And also, because I had been sleep deprived to the point of hallucination in the early days, and I had recovered from that, I guess I wasn’t as… Well, I was afraid of that, but I also knew oh, it’s fine. I’m probably not going to get as bad as that, so it’s okay. I mean, even if I hallucinate again, it’s okay. I guess, because I had hit rock bottom, so I just was more accepting, being tired was fine. So it was definitely a process. It takes a lot of time to decondition yourself. And I think the first time when it started to get better was when I had those sleepless nights, but it wasn’t that bad. I felt quite like, oh. I got up, I did a couple of things, went back to bed. Got up, and I was like, “Oh, I feel fine.”
Cindy Xia:
So then the next night I thought, “Oh, if I have one of those nights again, I’ll be all right.” And so I think it was that little moment when I thought, “I will be okay,” was when I started to be more accepting.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, why do you feel that those sleepless nights felt a little bit better? Do you think it was just a change in your reaction to them or your relationship with them? Or was it because you were doing different things, like instead of struggling, you were getting out of bed and reading a book or something like that? Why do you feel like those sleepless nights started to feel better?
Cindy Xia:
I think because, firstly, I started to realize that I was able to sleep. That’s the first thing, and I wasn’t just lying there wondering why my brain’s broken. And the second thing was, I just thought, “It’s just a matter of time. It might not be tonight, it could be tomorrow night.” So I think just realizing that everything was going to be okay and that there is a way out of this and I just needed to give it time. And right now, tonight might not be a night where I get lots of sleep, and that is okay. And just having things to do actually really helps. Because it’s super boring just lying there. I would much rather go on Facebook for five hours at night, than staring at the ceiling and wondering why I can’t sleep. So yeah, it was just a combination of lots of things.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that understanding the concept of sleep drive, like you touched upon, can be so helpful. All we mean by sleep drive, for people not familiar with it, is the longer we’re awake for, the stronger that pressure to sleep becomes. None of us can stay awake indefinitely, we’ll always sleep in the end.
Martin Reed:
When we’re struggling with insomnia, the brain can play tricks on us, right? We can have a really difficult night, and then we start to really become concerned that the next night is going to be really difficult too. Whereas the reality is after a really difficult night, the chances actually start to tip in our favor that the next night or the night after that will be a little bit better, because of that accumulation of sleep drive, because there’s been less sleep, more wakefulness, it increases the likelihood of sleep on subsequent nights. And that in itself, just understanding that concept can be really reassuring, just as you touched upon.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. Yes.
Martin Reed:
Something else I really liked was how you said, “In the past, when I went to bed, I never went to the bed and thought, okay, now I’ve got to fall asleep.” But yet, when we’re struggling with sleep, we start to put that pressure on ourselves, right?
Cindy Xia:
Yep.
Martin Reed:
And it’s like if a client asks me, “What do I do to make myself fall asleep when I get into bed?” And it’s kind of like, well, how about you just go and ask someone who sleeps really well and ask them what they do to fall asleep. And you’ll probably just get a blank stare, because the very process of falling asleep involves no attempts or no effort to fall asleep. And if we can recognize that we’re trying, that could be part of the problem. So I think that was really, really interesting the way you mentioned that. And it’s kind of ironic because I think deep down, we all know this. If we have a history of being able to sleep well in the past, we can remember that this was never anything I put effort into or thought into, so why am I doing it now?
Martin Reed:
And just so much of our thought processes and our behaviors change. Like you touched upon in the past, “I would just read a book if sleep wasn’t happening,” but then your mindset changes. “I don’t want to read a book, because that might take sleep away from me.”
Cindy Xia:
Yeah. Yep. Exactly. Absolutely.
Martin Reed:
Everything just changes. So sometimes it can be helpful to just try and identify all these changes we might’ve made, and see if we might be able to just pick away at them and start to undo them, and see what kind of effect that might have on our sleep.
Cindy Xia:
Yes, absolutely. And I remember in the early days of insomnia land, I would even try to monitor when I would fall asleep. I would think, “Oh, if my leg jerks once, it means I’m getting there.” Or if I start getting those dreamy thoughts, I go, “Oh, I’m nearly there.” And obviously, that would wake me up on it. And I’d go, “Darn it. I was so close. So close.” And whenever I had a dream, that was the best thing, because I knew I had slept. I thought, “Yes, I did. I had a dream.”
Martin Reed:
I noticed a few weeks ago, maybe more recently, you posted into the forum and you shared this really great analogy about sleep anxiety and how it relates to performance anxiety. You’re a professional musician. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Cindy Xia:
Oh yes. It’s great. So yeah, so performance anxiety in musicians, or if you’re doing public speaking, I think it’s considered the third biggest phobia in the world. More people fear performing than death. I don’t know. Don’t quote me on this. No, it’s very funny. But yes, performance anxiety it’s very, very similar to sleep anxiety, because you feel this intense pressure to succeed in what you want to do on the stage, and that will generate anxiety, but often the anxiety will also inhibit your ability to do that very task. So it becomes this negative feedback loop to the point where you just completely crash and burn on the stage, and then those bad experiences will also make you obsess about future performances.
Cindy Xia:
And so a lot of people think, “Oh, well, when I’m on stage, I’m just going to try harder so I don’t make mistakes, or try hard to focus.” And that’s very, very counterproductive, because often leads you to fulfilling the prophecy. So that’s very similar to sleep anxiety, because the more you think, “I am going to sleep so well tonight. I’m going to try so hard. I’m going to have all these things ready. My sleeping pills, and my perfect blanket, my lucky socks, the temperature set at the perfect degree,” and I don’t know, “my melatonin and all sorts. And then I’m going to sleep.” And then obviously, the harder you try, then you are not going to sleep and it sort of all goes down from there.
Cindy Xia:
Yeah. And the thing when I’m coaching my piano students to get through performance anxiety, I say to them, “Don’t worry about making a perfect performance, because that’s actually nearly impossible, actually. Yes, you can prepare for it, but in the actual day, yeah, you really can’t control anything, really. You almost have to just expect the unexpected and you go in there and just play your heart out, play your music. You have to be prepared for anything to happen, and you will have to know that you will be okay regardless of even the worst catastrophe.” So I guess if you take that analogy to sleeplessness or sleep anxiety, the only way to sleep well is to know that you will be okay, even in the worst catastrophe, which I guess is having zero hours that night and tossing and turning and feeling anxious, and feeling horrible. You will still be okay even when that happens in the worst case scenario.
Cindy Xia:
Yeah. So it is very hard because it does take time to train yourself out of that negative loop of, I have to try. Because it’s very counter intuitive. It’s like you have to not try to make it work, basically. Yeah. So it’s quite interesting.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, it is really interesting. Let me ask you this. Do you ever think that maybe there’s even an advantage to some of this performance anxiety in terms of you’re about to get on stage and maybe you feel that adrenaline and maybe it actually, in some way, helps your performance? Keeps you more focused?
Cindy Xia:
It does actually. It does, because I mean, I love performing. I love it so much. You get to a point where no matter how… Okay, there’s a myth that great performers never feel performance anxiety. That’s not true. Everyone feels it, everybody. But you get to a point where you feel the performance anxiety, and it doesn’t affect how well you play. I know that I could be vomiting backstage with nerves, and having all these catastrophic thoughts of, “What if I make a mistake and I can’t recover from it?” I could be having all those thoughts, but I know that the moment I walk onto the stage, despite having all these physical reactions and the thoughts and everything, and slippery fingers, and racing heart and blah, blah, blah, I know that I can still deliver the best performance.
Cindy Xia:
And actually, the reason why I’ve been able to do that is because I have practiced performing under those conditions. Yeah, and I love performing. And now when I feel the anxiety or whatever, this performance anxiety, I feel pretty excited because I know it’s like, oh, it’s my time to perform.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The reason why I ask you that is because we have this belief that anxiety is bad. All anxiety is bad and it must be avoided at all costs, and often that’s when we can get caught up in it. So I’m definitely not suggesting that performance anxiety is something we should strive for when we’re trying to sleep. But what I’m trying to get at, is it’s okay and it’s understandable to experience anxiety.
Martin Reed:
And just like you touched upon, it really is… How we get caught up in anxiety or how we respond to anxiety is really just down to our reactions to the thoughts we have that generate that anxiety. And it can be so helpful to recognize that thoughts and anxiety can definitely make us feel uncomfortable, but they’re not a danger to us, and we don’t have to try and fight them, or avoid them, or suppress them. If we can just get to a place where we can acknowledge that these thoughts are thoughts, our brain is hardwired to generate thoughts, often it can be another way that we eliminate this struggle, and this battle internally, when we find our mind racing. And all that effort that goes into suppressing, or challenging, or doing anything with thoughts, the truth is we don’t have to react to them because they are just thoughts.
Cindy Xia:
Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s one thing that I learned a lot about as well, that, yeah, our thoughts are just thoughts. Our brain is trying its best to protect us, but sometimes it has what I call an allergic reaction, which is reacting to something that’s actually not dangerous. And the best way is just to let it freak out a little bit, and just go, “Cool,” but I’m not going to change any of my behavior to face this threat that doesn’t exist in real life. Because otherwise, your anxiety will start to target itself, because it can’t really find anything else to target, so it will start picking on itself. And that’s when you get into a real bad loop, because then you start to fear the fear, which will will generate more fear.
Cindy Xia:
So, yeah. I read somewhere that… It was a really good quote. It said, “People with anxiety disorders… That anxiety is like discomfort, but not danger.” So it feels like danger, because that’s how we react to danger. But sometimes we can react as if there was danger when there isn’t any. And the key thing is not to change our behaviors as if there was something dangerous. We’d just go about our day, acknowledge that I’m feeling anxious, I’m thinking catastrophic thoughts. Cool. I’ll just do my thing. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. Yeah. I think you made a great point there as well, where you say, “Often the fear becomes the fear.” We are fearful of experiencing fear. And I think the challenge is the brain just cannot separate real threats, like there’s a grizzly bear about to break in through the front door and attack us in our sleep, and just a perceived threat, like if I don’t fall asleep, some kind of disaster will happen tomorrow. So the body will react the same, regardless of whether it’s a real threat or a perceived threat. And then if we try to push that thought away, we try and suppress that thought, then I think the brain can be like, “Oh wow, you’re trying to suppress this thought. It must be real. It must be really serious. We need to think about it more.” And it just ramps up that intensity, and that’s when we can really get caught up in our thoughts.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Especially the thought of… Because this is I guess the most common thought of an insomniac, which is, “What if I don’t sleep ever again?” Or, “What if my insomnia comes back?” Or, “What if, what if, what if…” It’s always the what ifs. And these days, if I think these thoughts, I just laugh at it because I don’t believe it. It’s the same as saying what if I walked outside and, I don’t know, an alien abducted me? Something kind of ridiculous. And I just go, “Is there something I should be worrying about? Oh, nah.” So if my brain starts thinking, “What if you don’t sleep tonight?” I just go, “I don’t know. You tell me. It’s fine. Everything’s all right.” Yeah. Hearing the thought, but just shrugging it off.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. And I think it can be helpful too, to just recognize that the brain is always going to want to focus on or think about the worst possible outcome. Because at the end of the day, that is a survival mechanism. That’s why we’re all alive today is because our brains are hardwired to consider what the worst possible outcome might be to protect us from that. But then again, we get caught up if the worst possible outcome is often the least likeliest outcome. There’s often that thought that we have often isn’t that accurate, but really we don’t even need to get too involved in that, because these thoughts are just thoughts.
Cindy Xia:
They’re just thoughts.
Martin Reed:
We don’t have to respond to them. They can make us feel uncomfortable for sure, but they’re not a reflection of who we are. They’re not a prediction of the future. They are just little bursts of chemical activity in the brain. And we get to choose how we respond to those thoughts.
Cindy Xia:
Yep, absolutely. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
So we’ve really focused on the thought processing side of things, and you touched upon trying not to allow our thoughts to control our behaviors. So extending on from that, on the behavioral side of things. Were there any changes you made to your behaviors in terms of when you went to bed, or when you got out of bed, that you feel contributed to your kind of transformation?
Cindy Xia:
What I did was I compared my safety behaviors and all of that with how I used to sleep, and I tried to go back to how I used to sleep. I mean, I used to sleep atrociously, but not because of insomnia, because I just didn’t… I used to love being awake, and I would just think, “Stay up late and watch shows.” And, “oh, okay, fine. I’ll go to sleep. Ah, boring.” So I used to find sleep boring, and I used to love being awake. Whereas on the flip side, when I struggled with sleep, I found that sleep was amazing and I hated being awake. So it was more about thinking, “Okay. Well, what did I used to do,” which was basically nothing, “to go to sleep?” And doing more of that.
Cindy Xia:
So one of the things I used to do for me, which is not recommended for other people, but I like to lay in bed awake purposefully. I know they say don’t do that because it’s not good. But for me, because that’s what I used to do, I used to just lie in bed and go on my phone, and just relax, and just feel like bed is a safe place to be. You don’t have to sleep, you can just lie there, that’s fine. So yeah, I did that. I also did a lot of things that broke my mental barriers about how I thought I should sleep. So for example, I mentioned how I thought I couldn’t sleep in a hot room. Well, one night I just thought, “You know what, I’m going to sleep bad even if I slept in a cold room. So I’m just going to try and sleep in a hot room tonight. I don’t care.” So I moved my mattress back upstairs, and it was 27 degrees, which felt hot to me, and I slept that night. And so immediately, my brain just went, “Oh, you don’t have that problem. You can sleep in a warm room.”
Cindy Xia:
Other things like drinking tea at night, one night, I just thought, “You know what? I’m just going to drink a cup of tea right before bed.” Don’t do this with coffee, that probably won’t work. But a diluted tea, it’s fine. I just thought, “I’m going to do that.” Slept fine. And I thought, “Oh great. I can drink tea again.” And I guess my biggest one was sleeping next to my baby. That was a really huge thing for me, because I had to always sleep really far away from her, because I felt like she triggered my anxiety. But one night when I was feeding her in bed, I fell asleep with her, again, not recommended for safe sleep guidelines.
Cindy Xia:
So one night I fell asleep with my baby next to me in bed. And that was amazing, because I realized I had no problem sleeping with my baby next to me. So basically, everything I thought I couldn’t do, I couldn’t sleep next to my baby, couldn’t sleep in a hot room…. So all those safety behaviors, I broke all of them, and that was so big. It just made me realize, oh, the only thing that will make me sleep is being awake, being tired.
Cindy Xia:
And so now, comparing my behavior now when I go to bed, I have no sleep hygiene behaviors whatsoever. I do everything opposite of what people say you should do when you go to bed. Use your phone, go to bed really late. I nap as well, I love napping. I nap hours a day. It doesn’t affect my night sleep, because I don’t force myself to sleep. If I know I napped three hours in a day, then I just think, “Oh, I’m probably not going to sleep till 2:00 or something,” so I just stay awake a bit longer. Yeah. So I think it’s just doing the opposite of what your anxiety is telling you. And that really changed how I saw my ability to sleep.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, that’s great. I think first and foremost, you deserve a lot of credit just for giving yourself the opportunity to test all those safety behaviors and all those rituals, just to see if they really were helpful, or if they weren’t helpful, if you could still sleep in a hot room, or if the room had to be a certain temperature. Because just tackling that or running an experiment, just testing those beliefs, sometimes then you have to deal with that fear of, what if I’m setting myself up now for a difficult night? So I think you have to be willing to experience some difficult nights when you give yourself that opportunity to test these beliefs and these behaviors. And sometimes, too, that first night or those first few nights, maybe you will struggle, because maybe you’re paying attention to monitor for the effect of the change that you’ve made. So it might take a little while. But from your experience, did you find that the first time you tried to sleep in a hot room, or the first time you drank tea, or the first time you tried to sit with your daughter, you slept well, or did it take a few attempts?
Cindy Xia:
I think for me, I was lucky because a lot of it happened accidentally. So for example, the hot room, baby next to me one happened at the same time. And also, the nightlight was on. I had actually never slept in a room with any kind of lighting. And so that actually broke an old safety behavior from even pre-insomnia. And so I thought, “Oh wow, I can sleep with a nightlight on?” And so yeah. So a lot of them happened accidentally, which was really helpful. So once that happened, I thought, “Okay, I’m going to drink some tea tonight.” I knew the tea wouldn’t actually harm me, because I’d been drinking tea at night for years. Yeah, and then using phone.
Cindy Xia:
Yeah, so I think mainly because I wasn’t thinking, “I’m going to test this tonight.” It was more of once I had a little bit of confidence, I thought, “I’m just going to add an extra thing I used to do in the past and it’s going to be fine. And if it’s not fine, I don’t think it’s because of the tea.” Yeah.
Martin Reed:
Just taking a step back just to get the bigger picture here. So how long would you say this journey was, from your lowest point of struggling with sleep, to getting to this stage where you don’t even really think about sleep, or maybe you don’t even care about sleep anymore? How long was that journey, would you say?
Cindy Xia:
I think about four months. If you count day one as the day I called the crisis number, till the… Four months was when I went back to work, and that was when I found your video. That’s when my sleep got instantly better. But I would say that even during that time, I was having bouts of pretty good and okay sleep, considering I had a baby. But obviously, had a lot of sleep anxiety, and lots of safety behaviors. But I was obviously sleeping because I was just really tired, and I had all this medication knocking me out.
Cindy Xia:
And around Christmas last year, I decided to cold turkey my medication, my sleep medication. Bad idea as well, but anyway, I did it. And I experienced a whole string of zero sleep nights. I think it was just a withdrawal from the drugs. And that really freaked me out. And then that’s when I realized I actually had a problem with insomnia, because at that point I was waiting for things to get better. It hadn’t gotten better, it was getting worse. And that’s when I was like, “Okay, I need to do something.” Then I found your videos. I went, “Oh, okay, nothing’s wrong with me. I just need to do nothing, basically.” And then my sleep improved right away, I would say almost right away, but I would still have the anxiety. I’d still have those thoughts in the day going, “But what if you don’t sleep again tonight?” And I actually tried to not take note of how often I had those thoughts. I would say I would had them, I don’t know, like three thoughts every 10 minutes. It was ridiculous.
Cindy Xia:
Walking through the day like, “Oh, do you remember the time you had a psychotic episode because you were sleep deprived? What if you don’t sleep again? What’s stopping you from not sleeping tonight?” Yeah, and then that’s when I thought, “Oh my goodness, this is going to take a little while to go away.” Sleeping better didn’t cure my anxiety. It wasn’t that. It was more I started to remember my relationship with sleep. So what I mean by that is because in the past, my relationship with sleep was like… Sleep for me, it’s like a cat. You can’t get a cat to sit on your lap by chasing it.
Cindy Xia:
I’ll just be like, “Oh yeah, I’ll just sit down. The cat can come sit on my lap anytime. If you don’t come, it’s okay.” But then after I struggled with sleep, I was just chasing this cat around with a broom and saying, “Get back here.” And I was like, “Why am I not sleeping?” And then afterwards when I started to learn more about what sleep actually is, and actually realizing I couldn’t control it, and realizing that doing nothing actually just improved my sleep. And that’s when I was like, “Okay, that’s right. I used to just wait for this cat to come rather than chasing it around.” And so I think when my relationship, my core relationship with sleep changed, that’s how I slept better.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that’s great. I love that analogy of chasing the cat around. I have cats, and I think anyone else that has cats will definitely… Cats do what they want, and it’s when we want them to do something that they do the exact opposite. And I think sleep is exactly the same as that. When we really, really want it and we start chasing it, it becomes increasingly elusive.
Cindy Xia:
Yep, exactly.
Martin Reed:
But I also love the fact that you described that there was still anxiety. You still were having anxious thoughts. And it also sounds like there were ups and downs. It wasn’t like every single night was better than, or as good as the last. And that’s really helpful for other people to hear, because sometimes we can gauge continuous improvement as a reflection if we’re making progress, when the truth is there’s always going to be ups and downs. The key is to just keep moving forward, and just try and keep on going.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. And I think it’s important not to use sleep as the measure of your success. It’s more of your relationship with sleep that is the measure of success. Because I have nights where I’m just not tired. That’s just how it is. I am just not tired. Or sometimes my baby keeps me up to 4:00 AM, and by that time, my body’s like, “Nah, you’re not going to go back to sleep.” And I guess it’s like learning to be in tune with your body again. And rather than forcing your body, saying, “Where’s the off button?” And press the off button, knockout. Our bodies don’t operate like that. We aren’t robots. We can’t just press a button, we can’t switch off.
Cindy Xia:
I think that’s the struggle with a lot of people with insomnia. They just think, “I wish there was just a button for me to press to turn my brain off and go to sleep,” but it’s not like that. It’s about finding that relationship with your own body again. And I guess almost like respecting your body, respecting that you’re afraid, you don’t feel like you want to protect me right now. You don’t feel safe and you don’t think it’s safe for me to be unconscious. Okay. Okay. I see. That’s okay. That’s okay. Yeah. And it’s almost like I’m letting my body just do what it wants. And whatever it chooses to do, that is okay. I trust it. I trust it will rest when it wants to rest, it will be awake when it wants to be awake.
Cindy Xia:
And yes, I mean I have nights where I get very little sleep, not very often anymore. I reckon probably once every three months, which I reckon is probably the same as the general population. And I have a baby. I think I’ve done amazing, honestly. I sleep so well, considering I have you. Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the nights was because we both caught a cold and she had a stuffy nose, and I just thought, “Okay.” But I wasn’t worried about insomnia. I just thought, “Oh yep, this is going to be a little bit tricky.” Still slept, so okay.
Cindy Xia:
There was another night where I think I had a five hour nap. That’s not really a nap, that’s just a sleep. But anyway, I had a five hour nap in the afternoon. And then I got to the nighttime and I thought, “Okay, all right. I think I’m fully nocturnal now.” And it was fine, I just got up and did some laundry and then around like 4:00 in the morning I thought, “Oh, I’ll just lie down a bit,” and I still slept. So it’s fine. You don’t have to sleep, just do whatever. That’s my philosophy at night.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I love it. And I love how you just emphasize that really it’s just about a change in our relationship with sleep. To be one maybe where we just trust our body’s natural ability to sleep, and just let it do what it wants to do. Sleep might not happen tonight, or it might take longer to fall asleep. Maybe that’s okay. Maybe we don’t have to try and change that, or try and put effort into… Or just try and get involved in the process. Sleep is an autonomous process. We can make sleep more difficult, just like we can make breathing more difficult by holding our breath. But at the end of the day, the body knows how many breaths it needs to take throughout the entire day. Very few of us focus on making sure we get a certain number of breaths every day, so why do we need to focus on making sure we get a certain number of hours or certain number of minutes of sleep each night? The body takes care of this. The body wants to take care of this by itself.
Martin Reed:
Moving towards a place there where we can just be a bit more trusting, change our relationship with sleep. I think that’s the key to longterm success, really putting insomnia behind you for good.
Cindy Xia:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I was talking to a friend recently and she was mentioning how, when women go through menopause, they often go through insomnia, because she’s going through sleep disruption at the moment, and I’m kind of coaching her through it. And we both laughed and we said, “Oh, we’re fine.” We’re all set for menopause insomnia, because what we’re going through now is just going to set us up to be bulletproof in the future, so I’m not worried about that. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s great. Well, Cindy, I think this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on, especially with the little one there, who’s been really well-behaved. She’s doing great. That’s so cute. I do just have one last question, which is a question that I ask everyone who comes on, just as a way of finishing off the discussion. So I’d like to ask you that question too. And the question is this. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, and that they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?
Cindy Xia:
The first thing I would say is I feel for you. It is so hard. It is hell. People do not understand how hard it is, because they think, “How hard is it just to sleep?” It’s the first-world problem. Maybe it is. So the first thing I would say is I really, really feel for you. It is absolutely horrible, and it can really bring you down to the worst mental state ever. But the second thing is, is that you will be okay. Your insomnia is not special. Your brain is not broken. You can sleep, you will sleep because your body is programmed to sleep. And yeah, you will absolutely sleep. It is not an easy journey. It does take a lot of time, because again, the fear response in the body is very, very strong. That’s why we are alive. It will take a lot of time, and a lot of patience from you, and you will have lots of ups and downs.
Cindy Xia:
And yeah, it is a process, but once you’ve gone through it, you will realize that if you can conquer this, you can conquer absolutely anything, absolutely anything, because insomnia is so hard. Yeah, people who don’t have it, don’t get it. Yeah, I always love talking with people who had insomnia because we can always joke about it. And I say, “Hey, welcome to insomnia land. How many zero hour nights have you had?” Yeah. But no, anyone who’s listening and who thinks their brain is broken, you are not broken. You will be fine. You will sleep, but more importantly, you will love being awake, and that’s what will help you sleep. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
I love it. I think that’s a great note to end on. So thanks again for coming on, Cindy. It was great to talk to you.
Cindy Xia:
You’re welcome. Thank you.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
Mentioned in this episode:
Videos:
Get rid of chronic insomnia by getting rid of sleep efforts and safety behaviors
Even if you have chronic insomnia, sleep drive always wins — you can sleep and you will sleep!
Cindy’s forum post:
100% cured from postpartum insomnia 🙂
I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com.
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1 hr
July 28, 2021How Jake got his sleep back on track by changing his nighttime behaviors and his daytime behaviors (#30)
Listen to the podcast episode (audio only)
When COVID led to Jake having to work from home he found himself working way beyond the usual nine to five. Jake found himself answering calls and texts at all hours of the day and even started to take his computer to bed.
Work soon encroached into his weekends and before long, Jake found that he no longer had any kind of sleep schedule. When he took a vacation he found it really hard to get any sleep at all and this led to a lot of sleep-related research, a lot of anxiety, and a lot of worry.
Fortunately, Jake’s sleep recovered — but only for a few weeks. Then, his insomnia returned and was even worse than before. Jake thought that his sleep was broken and that something was wrong with him.
The good news is, there’s no real mystery when it comes to insomnia — from person to person, insomnia is remarkably similar. It’s often our relationship with our thoughts and the behaviors we might implement in a bid to improve our sleep that provide insomnia with the oxygen it needs to survive.
As Jake learned more about sleep and insomnia he implemented evidence-based techniques to help build sleep drive, strengthen his body clock, and weaken arousal. He started to spend less time in bed, he got out of bed during the night if being in bed didn’t feel good, and — perhaps most importantly of all — he tried to live the kind of life he wanted to live during the day, independently of how he slept.
Now, Jake’s life doesn’t revolve around sleep and he no longer tries to control sleep or put effort into sleep. As a result, he is sleeping a lot better and has regained confidence in his natural ability to sleep.
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hi, Jake, thank you for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast.
Jake Zandi:
Oh, thanks for having me, Martin. I’m very happy to be here today.
Martin Reed:
It’s great to have you on. Let’s start right at the beginning. When did your sleep problems first begin and what do you think caused your initial issues with sleep?
Jake Zandi:
Well, so we’ve all been going through this pandemic for the past, I think it’s over a year now since it’s hit the States. Yeah, I was doing pretty good with work and everything like that, working at an actual physical location. Once the pandemic hit, I think it was like in March of last year, I was told to go home. I actually just started the job probably two weeks prior to that. So, I had never really worked from home before and that’s something I’ve never really had to do. So, I didn’t really know, at first, I didn’t really have the discipline, you know what I mean? Of working just nine to five like my old job was.
Jake Zandi:
So, I got caught in, I want to say, probably bad sleep habits. This is what really first started happening to me. I was going to bed late because I would take work with me. I would take the computer with me into bed, which is a big no-no. I was answering phone calls or text messages in all hours of the day. So, basically, my nine to five turned into, when I wake up I start working until I go to sleep and in between intermittently. So, I was good for probably a few months. I was doing this working whenever. Unfortunately though, it started to bleed into my weekends.
Jake Zandi:
So, working from home ended up being on my weekends when I was trying to relax. I didn’t really have the downtime that you usually have from just nine to five, Monday through Friday. So, I just started working a lot and I think what happened was I was getting stressed out from work. I don’t blame anyone but myself on this one, because it was just me not having that discipline of, you know what, if I get a text message or if I get an email after work, work hours or whatever, I should just let it go and get to it in the morning.
Jake Zandi:
But I didn’t have that discipline and I wasn’t getting up early and I would sleep longer and longer, until before you know it, my whole internal clock was off. I ended up going on a vacation. I lived in the north east, so we went up to Maine for the weekend. I went with my fiance. We stayed in the hotel room and I guess what threw me off was I getting work text messages and all the stuff on Friday night into Saturday and I was like, “Oh, man, I told her I was going on vacation for the weekend.” But that ended up throwing me off a little bit.
Jake Zandi:
I didn’t think anything of it, but for some reason, that Friday or yeah, it was that Friday night I didn’t sleep at all when we got to the hotel. I slept like probably, well, I can’t say I didn’t sleep at all, but I probably slept like two hours. I thought, “Well, that wasn’t fun. Hopefully, I’ll be good for the whole day and I’m on vacation, so I want to really enjoy this weekend.” Then, it went to that next night, it went to that next night, and again, I slept like two or three hours, and I was like, “What is going on? This has never happened before.” So, I start to think about it more than usual.
Jake Zandi:
I’ve had, like anyone, a bad night sleep and I was even in the military and I used to do 24 hour shifts and stuff like that and never thought twice about having difficulty sleeping. But now, it’s just like, I don’t know, I freaked out a little bit. I started researching things. I was like, “How come I’ve had a couple of bad night sleep?” I just didn’t really identify that it was maybe me being stressed with work and being just in a situation where there’s just a lot going on in the world, there’s a lot of anxiety right now. We’re still living it. But yeah, it ended up snowballing into something that was pretty crazy.
Jake Zandi:
I ended up having like a week’s night or a week of bad sleep after that. I was freaking out. So, I went on YouTube, I was Googling all these things and how to sleep better, and how to fix sleep problems. It ended up being really … It became very stressful. Like I said, I’ve never worried about sleep ever in my life. I love sleeping. I’d consider myself a good sleeper again, but I was very distraught. I didn’t know what was going on. A lot of the stuff that I found online would freak me out. It’d say, if you don’t get good sleep, you’re going to have higher risk of cancer, or higher risk of cardiovascular disease and all of this stuff.
Jake Zandi:
So, I started becoming a little bit of a hypochondriac as well. It just really blew out of proportion. I was basically keeping myself awake and I was feeding insomnia with all these thoughts and ideas and what ifs, but it’s where it all went down hill and it stayed that way for a while.
Martin Reed:
So, when you first had those really difficult nights when you’re away on vacation, did it seem obvious to you why those hard nights were happening? For example, you’re getting into bed and then just finding your mind was freaking out about work or something like that, or was it just you couldn’t come up with any explanation? You were just finding it really hard to sleep whilst you were away?
Jake Zandi:
It was a little bit of both. It was a little bit I think it was because I was stressed out that I wasn’t able to sleep, but it was kind of, “All right, enough is enough. How come my mind isn’t shutting off?” Do you know what I mean? I wasn’t really able to come down from all these anxiety. Then, before you know it, I feel like the anxiety of work and all these other stuff, they almost transformed into, I don’t know if that’s the word, but it turned into basically this worry about sleep. Then, I really didn’t worry about all the other stuff anymore.
Jake Zandi:
I was like, “I’d get to that when I get to that.” I’m worried about what’s going on now, and it was just feeding it. It was a vicious cycle, like a dog chasing its tail. I don’t really know how to explain it. It was just, I could not get out of it. So, it got really scary.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think a lot of people will identify with that, like the dog chasing its tail, because as soon as we start to worry about sleep, that does tend to, unfortunately, make sleep more difficult. Then, sleep becomes more difficult. So, then we quite naturally worry even more about sleep. It just becomes this vicious cycle that you can just feel so trapped in. It just seems like there’s no way out.
Jake Zandi:
Yeah, I think another thing is, the harder I tried to sleep the further it got away. I couldn’t get sleep because I was trying so hard to sleep that it became … I’d be awake all day and try not to take any nap just in case, so I could make sure that the night was good. It was difficult. I couldn’t even really take naps either, because I was so worried. I was just so anxiety ridden, I guess you could say. I had never really experienced that. So, it was quite bizarre, quite bizarre.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So, when you returned home from the trip, what was your sleep looking like at that point? How would you describe a typical night at that point?
Jake Zandi:
Yeah, so a typical night was, I’d worry all day. Then, getting home it was just, that night I got back from the trip, it wasn’t a good night sleep. It was me worrying about, “Hey, will I get a good night sleep tonight?” I think that was really the first night where I just really started to worry about the sleep and kind of freaked out about everything else. I would go to bed and then just lay there. I think what ended up happening was, and I’ll get more on this subject later, but I would end up going to sleep earlier than I used to. I’d be in bed earlier, and I’d try to sleep earlier.
Jake Zandi:
That would just in turn make it harder. I would lay in bed, like I said, I take nine hours and I’d usually sleep about seven to eight. That was my normal sleep cycle. I was just trying to catch up on the sleep, like hopefully it will just happen if I just lay here long enough. It ended up just being even worse. I think it honestly exacerbated it and made it so much worse than it was, was me trying to lay in bed. I was only getting three or four hours those first few nights being home. It was rough. Until I did eventually end up having normal sleep.
Jake Zandi:
I don’t know if something came up or whatever, but I forgot about all these issues. Oh, I didn’t forget about it, but it was like less and less and then I felt better. I think it just took one good night of sleep where I slept nine hours or something like that. Once I got that nine hours, it was like, boom, I’m reset, I’m good, no issues. There’s nothing wrong with me and I was good for about two weeks, or I think it might have been three. So, I was good for two or three weeks. Then, before you know it, boom, I had a bad night. Then, that bad night turned into more bad nights.
Jake Zandi:
Then, it was worse than before. It was like three or four weeks. It was just terrible. Most nights I was struggling to fall asleep. I’d have that occasional night where I got a good night sleep, but for me, it was mostly I could not, for the life of me, fall asleep because my mind was racing. I was wired and I just couldn’t slow down and relax, and it was bad.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think a lot of people listening to this are going to identify with every now and then you seem to get that good night. It might not be fantastic, or it might be, but you tend to get these other nights that are actually pretty good. You think, why are these not happening every single night? But the typical explanation, and there’s no real mystery to it. Most sleep disruption is happening or is being sustained because of the arousal system. We’re more worried about sleep or we’re paying a lot of attention to sleep, maybe putting a lot of effort into sleep, trying, striving.
Martin Reed:
This makes sleep more difficult, so we get less sleep. But when we get less sleep, our sleep pressure, that drive the sleep, the body wants to sleep, that urge to sleep becomes stronger and stronger. So, we can’t go indefinitely with no sleep, for example, sleep always happen in the end. So, when we have those better nights, it’s because our sleep drive has just reached its tipping point where it’s so strong, it’s overpowering all that arousal, all that anxiety, all that worry, all that effort, all that striving, so sleep happens.
Martin Reed:
But unfortunately, then you’re back at square one because now that sleep drive is being relieved, so your arousal system is back in charge and it puts you back onto that cycle of sleep difficulties again.
Jake Zandi:
Right.
Martin Reed:
So, this is why we really want to take a two-pronged approach by building that sleep drive, spending a little bit less time in bed or just an amount of time that’s more appropriate to the kind of sleep you’re getting. Also, sort of seeing what we can do to weaken that arousal system, so we don’t need to be awake for quite so long in order to get those better nights of sleep.
Jake Zandi:
Of course, no, I agree with you, because after a while your body just … you have to sleep. The sleep drive really does kick in.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, and I think in a way it can be a little bit reassuring because it shows that you can still sleep. You can still get those nights of a few hours plus of sleep. So, if nothing else that shows that your sleep drive system is working, your sleep isn’t completely broken, that you are capable of sleep, then you’ve got something to build on, something to work on. So, if nothing else, I think those one off better nights can serve as a little bit of reassurance perhaps.
Jake Zandi:
Oh, for sure, for sure. That’s something that I really started to notice, was eventually … At first, I thought my sleep was broken, like I’m having issues, there’s something wrong with me. For me, it was very anxiety based. So, it was basically me, my mind, keeping myself awake, and then my body was just always tensed. I wasn’t relaxing at all. I just really couldn’t get there. Until eventually I feel like I just wore out completely, just burnt out. Then, my body would just, whatever, head hits the pillow, you’re out.
Jake Zandi:
Then, that would happen, and that would be awesome, because I was like, “Wow, that really helps with my sleep confidence.” Yeah, that was really cool to experience that. Then, that’s when I did end up finding your videos on YouTube and ended up learning more about CBT and CBT-I, and I really think that that’s huge. With the whole sleep restriction and all of that, that was very good, but I don’t know if I’m skipping ahead, Martin.
Martin Reed:
No, no, that’s great. I think that’s a great point to move on to that. Like you said, you came across my YouTube channel. For anyone that’s not familiar with it, you can find it at YouTube.com/insomniacoach. Really, it’s these sleep related thoughts that we can develop and these sleep related behaviors we implement in response to difficult nights of sleep, through no fault of our own, because we want to fix the problem of disruptive sleep. But unfortunately, they can perpetuate that sleep disruption. So, in order to get our sleep back on track, really what we want to do is address those thoughts and behaviors.
Martin Reed:
If we can do that, we create better conditions for sleep, and we do that through building sleep drive, strengthening our body clock, and our good friend, the arousal system, we lower or we weaken that arousal. Can you tell us a bit more about any of the thoughts? You mentioned that kind of anxiety, could you tell us a bit more about any of the thoughts that you perhaps identified that could have been fueling your insomnia, or maybe you touched upon one of them, spending a lot of time in bed? Any of the sleep related behaviors you’re implementing in a bid to improve your sleep that on reflection might not have been that helpful?
Jake Zandi:
Yeah, so it really was a lot of those thoughts of, “Will I be able to get sleep tonight? How will I function tomorrow?” Then, there’s also the, “Is there something wrong with me? Is there something going wrong?” Then, that’s when a lot of it was, I was Googling a lot of stuff, I was watching a lot of videos, because I’m a big YouTube person. I love watching videos. I think it’s great. I get a lot more insight than just reading something on Reddit or whatever. But yeah, it was just a lot of worry.
Jake Zandi:
Then, you’d see something, or read something where someone is like, “I haven’t slept in a few days.” Then, before you know it, you’re like, “Is that going to be me? Am I going to be this person who’s not being able to sleep and then basically being bed-ridden?” It was just a lot of bad, negative sleep thoughts. That was feeding it. If you’re thinking negative all the time about something, it’s probably not going to work out. It’s not going to be a positive outcome.
Jake Zandi:
I never thought this would happen to me, so that’s why I was like, “What is going on?” I never thought that I would basically, not lose control of my sleep, but lose the confidence and my ability to have a good restful slumber, do you know what I mean? So, it was bad for a while, but that’s when I found you, and I watched a lot of your videos. I researched a lot of my own. Read articles about CBT-I, and that was where things started turning around significantly and pretty quickly. I was very surprised.
Martin Reed:
So, I think that the first thing that you did was reduce the amount of time you were allotting for sleep, is that right?
Jake Zandi:
Yes, yup. So, instead of going to bed early and then allotting nine hours in bed trying to sleep, physically trying to sleep, and before I get into that, I did try all the sleep hygiene stuff, it didn’t work for me. Some things, I guess, but that became ritualistic. Then, before you know it, you have to have tea at night and do certain meditation, and listen to this tape and that tape. Anyways, that didn’t really work for me and it became more of a hassle. It gave me either more anxiety about trying to sleep, because if I didn’t do one thing, I wouldn’t be able to get that sleep.
Jake Zandi:
But the CBT-I is what really worked, and it was that sleep restriction, which I’ve tried first. Instead of going to bed, I think it was like 11:00 trying to sleep, I stay up until I think 1:00, 1:30. I actually started to feel sleepy, naturally, like I used to, you know what I mean?
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Jake Zandi:
So, it was letting go of trying to fall asleep at 11:00 exactly and all these other stuff, and staying in bed so long that I would go to bed and I would wake up within, I think it was a six and a half hour time frame. Then, I was able to sleep and I slept six and a half hours, but it did become clear that if I just got out of bed and didn’t sit there all day, I was able to start my day sooner. I was able to do all these normal things. Have breakfast. Have tea in the morning, or whatever. I usually do tea because I’m not really big into coffee, but yeah, I just felt like I was able to have a full day.
Jake Zandi:
Then, at the end of the day, get naturally tired, naturally sleepy, and go to bed. But yeah, it took me probably a few nights of just trying the sleep restriction until it eventually felt like I was in a groove, in a rhythm. Almost as if like my circadian rhythm reset and it knew when to go to bed and when to wake up and it was less effort. So, that helped tremendously, sleep restriction.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that you touched upon it. It was getting that sense of really strong sleepiness back again, because it’s so easy to forget it, that sense of sleepiness, because when we have insomnia, it’s often replaced by this sense of fatigue, feeling worn out, just exhausted and run down. That doesn’t feel good, obviously, but it’s not a sign that we need sleep at that time.
Jake Zandi:
Exactly.
Martin Reed:
There is a difference between fatigue and sleepiness, and what can happen is when we go to bed when we’re fatigued instead of sleepy, we’re probably not going to fall asleep. Then, because we’re not falling asleep, then we start to get all those worries, “Why am I not falling asleep? I’m exhausted. I’m so worn out. I can barely concentrate. Why am I not sleeping?” Well, the reason you’re not sleeping is probably because you’re not sleepy enough to sleep and then because that arousal is kicking in. This is through no fault of our own, because everything we’re doing is completely understandable.
Martin Reed:
We want to fix the problem of this sleep disruption. Unfortunately, sleep is that oddity, because it response poorly to effort and striving, it is one of these things that gets worse the more we want it. So, by doing things like giving ourselves less opportunity for sleep, we’re still giving ourselves a good opportunity for sleep. I never recommend spending less time in bed than you typically spend asleep. So, we’re still giving you that opportunity for sleep. By doing that, we’re really building that sleep drive. We are getting that sense of sleepiness back. We’re creating better conditions for sleep.
Martin Reed:
Just as you found, it can just feel so good to get that sense of sleepiness back and that does help with sleep onset and it does help weaken or lower that arousal, too.
Jake Zandi:
For sure. I also noticed, too, is if I actually waited to feel sleepy, because I would feel tired, “Oh, I’m tired. I’m tired. I need to go to bed. I need to sleep.” Do you know what I mean? But I wasn’t really sleepy yet, so it was just, like you said, your mind keeps going and it’s like, “Why am I not asleep yet? I’m not asleep yet.” But the sleepiness, once I started feeling that again, I also started to care a little bit less and less each night about if I was going to get good sleep or whatever, because it was, honestly, the more sleepy I was the less time I had to think about it.
Jake Zandi:
The less powerful it got. I also had better quality of sleep. Instead of waking up multiple times of the night like I did before, and this is something I want to touch on, before if I did wake up, it was hard for me to fall asleep, but I also did wake up multiple times throughout the night. But it was, yeah, it was pretty bad at first, but I do want to touch real quick on the other technique that I did use when I had these troubles, when I woke up and couldn’t fall back asleep, was I would get up and do something boring or whatever.
Jake Zandi:
Whether it’s coloring a coloring book, or read a book, just in a dim light, quiet area. That was just like my reset. So, I would do that as well. That was another technique.
Martin Reed:
One thing I did just want to talk about quickly, just with the sleep restriction and allotting less time for sleep, just waiting for that strong sense of sleepiness to occur. Another reason why I think it can be helpful is it shifts attention away from the clock as well, because often when we’re allotting so much time for sleep, like you touched upon, it was probably closer to nine hours and you were getting nowhere near that amount of sleep, is often you can have this idea, “Okay, it’s 10:00, now, I have to go to bed, or 11:00, I have to go to bed.”
Martin Reed:
Without any consideration of how sleepy you are because you’re so keen to get a certain amount of sleep. You want to give yourself that opportunity, but the problem is, the clock doesn’t know when we’re sleepy. So, if we go to bed based on what the clock is telling us, that could lead to some sleep disruption because we might not be sleepy enough to sleep. Also, if we get really ritualistic about, it’s X o’clock, so now I must go to bed, it can leak into our lives as well. Because then, we might not want to, for example, go out for dinner or go out to the movies, or socialize with friends because we feel that we have to be back for that set bed time.
Martin Reed:
So, I just think it’s really helpful to not only allot a more proper amount of time for sleep, but to really try and shift the tension away from using the clock as your guide for when to go to bed. Yes, maybe it can be helpful to have an earliest possible bed time. So, if you are implementing a sleep window, you can say, “I’m not going to go to bed before,” I think you said for you it was like 1:00 in the morning?
Jake Zandi:
Right.
Martin Reed:
But even then, if 1:00 in the morning rolls around and you don’t feel sleepy enough to sleep, it can still be helpful to just wait for those natural sleepiness cues to appear before going to bed.
Jake Zandi:
Oh, for sure. Yeah, it was just like night and day. Honestly, it was such a big change instead of trying to go to sleep. Because like you said, the clock doesn’t know when you’re sleepy. Another thing is clock watching, too, that would keep me up at the beginning, was I’d look at the clock, look at the clock, “What time? Oh, my God, it’s 2:00 in the morning, I’m still awake, what’s going on?” But that was all that sleep effort, I was trying to sleep, I was trying to get to bed at a certain time and stay asleep for a certain amount of time, and hopefully not wake up.
Jake Zandi:
It was just adding more and more anxiety, but having that sleep restriction and just staying up, like I say, I stay up and I read until 1:00. If I feel sleepy at 1:00, I’d go to bed at 1:00 and then I’ll wake up 6:30, 7:00, whatever it may be. Then, it would just get better, and better, and the quality of sleep would get better and better, because after a while it didn’t seem … Eight hours sounds good, but who really gets a straight eight hours of sleep? It seems very hard the older you get, especially.
Jake Zandi:
But the quality, I rather have six and half, six to six and a half hours of quality sleep instead of just sleeping, trying to sleep for eight, nine hours, waking up, going back to sleep, and having to do all these things. Do you know what I mean? The sleep restriction was huge for me and that really built up that sleep confidence again. But yeah, if I did have bad nights, I would implement getting up out of bed and then doing something relaxing, going back to bed, and usually I’d be successful in falling asleep. So, that worked as well. It was my reset.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So, let’s talk about that, because I think it can be really helpful, too. Okay, so we’ve got a plan in place right now, I’m not going to go to bed before a certain time. I’m going to get out of bed no matter what at a certain time in the morning. So, another good plan to have in the toolbox is what to do if you get into bed and then you find it hard to fall asleep, or if you wake up during the night and find it hard to fall back to sleep. Often, I like to say that if being awake in bed feels good, there’s no reason to do anything, because it means the conditions are right for sleep.
Martin Reed:
But if being in bed doesn’t feel good, then it can be a good idea to get out of bed and do something that would make that wakefulness a little bit more pleasant, compared to staying in bed when being in bed doesn’t feel good. It sounds like that was a technique that you implemented. So, yeah, I’m really keen to hear more about how you implemented it and how you feel it worked for you.
Jake Zandi:
Yeah, so at first I was nervous of trying that. I was afraid to get out of bed. I was like, “Oh, well, what if I get out of bed and then I’m not that sleepy when I come back?” That wasn’t the case, that wasn’t the case. The first time I actually tried it, it did work and I was very surprised. So, I got out of bed. I think I must have woken up maybe three in the morning and I was like, “Oh, man, I’m up at three in the morning, I really want to sleep. I really want to get to bed.” It’s just one extra thing you have to do, but it works. For some people, it might not work, but maybe staying in bed works, like you were saying, if the conditions were right for sleep.
Jake Zandi:
But if I’m feeling wide awake, I’m not going to sit there anymore. So, what I’d do is I’d get up. I have an adult coloring back or whatever. I’ll color in that in low light. Actually, I have one of those Himalayan salt lamps that I have, and I’ll turn that on and I’ll just … Even if I stood up in bed that has worked for me, but usually the couch is the best for me. If I go out to the living room, it’s a different room. I can get that sense of being able to reset my mind, do whether it’s reading techniques, that helps too. I can even do a quick meditation if I don’t feel like coloring or reading a book that late.
Jake Zandi:
But 20 minutes is kind of like my perfect thing. I don’t look at the clock or anything. I just guesstimate. If it feels like it’s been 20 minutes, and I’m starting to feel sleepy again, which I usually do, I’ll head back to bed. Usually, what happens is within a couple of minutes I’m asleep. So, it’s like, the head hits the pillow, but it’s a good way to get out of bed, get back to a reality, I guess, you know what I mean? Instead of being in this anxious state of not being able to sleep, to be able to get back to a sense of, “I’m here. I’m all right. I can breathe.” If for whatever reason it takes longer and you got to do it again, it’s not the end of the world. Eventually, you will sleep.
Martin Reed:
I think that the phrase you used, it helps me reset my mind, was something that I just picked up on, because often when we spend time awake in bed, that’s when we start to ruminate. The mind starts to fire up, maybe notch up into a higher gear. We’re in bed, it’s probably dark, we’re alone with our thoughts, it can be hard to move away from that when the mind decides it wants to go into hyper drive. So, getting out of bed and just doing anything else can act a little bit just like a circuit breaker, like a reset switch, and help calm the mind a little bit more quickly, compared to if you have stayed in bed with nothing else to focus on other than those thoughts.
Jake Zandi:
Right, and it breaks that frustration, because after a while you end up going from anxious, to frustrated, to, “Man, I’m not going to sleep, tomorrow’s ruined. Blah, blah, blah.” Then, you start really feeding those anxious and negative sleep thoughts. So, yeah, it’s just very helpful to just get out, reset, breathe, everything is going to be fine, and just have some sense of optimism. That’s really what was able to help, too. So, that did work for me, and these were all tools that I can still use, do you know what I mean? If I have bad nights now. I’m doing a lot better.
Jake Zandi:
I’m basically back to before this was happening. But sometimes, I do have those thoughts here and there, “Oh, man, something big is coming up.” But yeah, that was very helpful, those techniques.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, and I think something else that can be helpful to recognize as well is, you might not fall right back to sleep just because you got out of bed. Even if you get in and out of bed a few times during the night, you might not fall back to sleep. Because we can’t control sleep, our goal isn’t necessarily to do something or to make ourselves fall back to sleep. Really, what we’re doing is just trying to give you an alternative to staying in bed if being in bed is just not proving to be helpful. So, getting out of bed, doing something else, if nothing else, it will probably make that wakefulness a little bit more appealing compared to staying in bed.
Martin Reed:
But the real bonus it has, and this is more of a long term benefit, is it prevent your mind from reinforcing this negative association between the bed and unpleasant wakefulness. A common symptom of that is feeling really sleepy before going to bed and then you get into bed and you just feel wide awake again. Or, waking during the night and suddenly feeling really awake, even after very little amount of sleep. Because your mind forms powerful associations and if we repeatedly spend a lot of time in bed and it doesn’t feel good to be in bed, our mind learns the bed is not a good place to be.
Martin Reed:
So, as soon as we get into bed, or as soon as we wake from sleep, the brain is like, “Uh-uh, we got to activate all the fight or flight response to protect you from this evil bed. This bed is a horrible place to be.” So, the only way we can really break that association is by only being in bed when we’re either asleep or when conditions feel right for sleep. We do that by just getting out of bed whenever it’s not good to be in bed. So, even if you don’t fall asleep that night, what you’re doing is still going to be helpful, by getting out of bed instead of staying in bed when being in bed doesn’t feel good. It’s still going to be helpful over the longer time, too.
Jake Zandi:
Exactly. That’s something I noticed, because sometimes if I would just try to go to bed, when this was all beginning, when this was all starting, I’d get anxious and be like, “Oh, no, I don’t want to go to bed.” You know what I mean? Because I had bad nights there, and some nights it was sleeping on the couch for me that felt better. I did notice that. I was like, “Well, if I can sleep on the couch, why can’t I sleep in the bed?” Because I created those negative sleep thoughts and then that arousal and all of that, it just became second nature without me being able to really control it.
Jake Zandi:
I had to do something about it. I feel like, from what I know, your mind will follow your body and vice versa. So, just if I’m sleeping on a couch, I should be able to sleep in the bed, no problem. So, I really just stopped using the couch for a place to sleep or whatever when I was having these difficult nights, and retrain my brain to know the bed as a comfortable place to sleep, the right place to sleep. I almost created like a, what is the word for it? It became like a haven, like a place where sleep happens and not a hangout.
Jake Zandi:
The bedroom to me now, I don’t go in there, I had a TV in there, but we don’t watch anymore. So, the TV, I’d rather be in the living room where I can watch television or relax and do all these things and then head to the bedroom. I think coming into the living room has been great because it associates the living room with a place to be awake and a place to relax, do you know what I mean? So, going back to the bed after that reset, the bed feels like the proper place to sleep.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, you’re making a really good point there. That’s something I think people are going to identify with is I thought that I was able to sleep on the couch, why couldn’t I sleep in bed? Often, it does come down to that conditioned arousal. We’ve conditioned ourselves, again, through no fault of our own, it’s just the fact that we’ve spent so much time in bed when being in bed didn’t feel good. Our brain is telling us that it’s got to protect us from being in bed. In order to do that, we have to be awake.
Martin Reed:
But if we are in a different environment such as on the couch, we haven’t got that association. So, we’re able to relax, we’re able to feel sleepy, and we’re able to fall asleep. So, if nothing else, the fact that we can fall asleep on the couch proves that we can sleep, as you had just touched upon. So, how do we then make that transition? How do we shift that sleep from the couch to the bed? I think it is a case of accepting that there’s going to be some sleep disruption in the short term by only allowing yourself to sleep in bed instead of the couch.
Martin Reed:
But if you only allow yourself to sleep in your own bed, if that’s your long term goal, is to sleep in your own bed, then by only allowing yourself to sleep in your own bed, that is where you will sooner or later sleep, because sleep drive always wins in the end. Sleep always happens in the end. So, if you refuses to allow yourself to sleep anywhere other than your own bed, that is where sleep is going to happen. Every minute of sleep you then get, you’re going to be in your own bed, you’re going to be reinforcing that more positive association between your bed and sleep, instead of the couch, or the guest room, or anywhere else.
Jake Zandi:
Exactly. That’s just, at this point now where I’ve done so much, I look at the bed differently now. Because when I started having these issues, I looked at the bed, like I said before, a negative place. I had so many bad experiences in there, not being able to sleep, having terrible days the day after. It just snowballed into, I don’t want to even go in the bedroom anymore. I’ll just stay on the couch and hopefully fall asleep. But once I retrain myself to sleep, and you have to retrain yourself to association things with sleep, the bed has become my natural place to sleep.
Jake Zandi:
It’s the designated place to sleep and I no longer look at it with that negative look like I did before. It seems like these thoughts, once you do that enough, these thoughts, these negative sleep thoughts, they start to fade and have less power, which has been really cool. I don’t know if I’m jumping ahead again, Martin, but that was something that was very empowering, was the fact that these negative sleep thoughts became less and less and less because I had so many good nights after these issues in my own bed. So, now, I’m having maybe less sleep at first, but I’m having quality sleep.
Jake Zandi:
I’m actually tired. That sleep drive built up all day and it was awesome. It was such a great experience to just come out of that and I was like, “Oh, finally, I’m able to get a hold of myself again.” After having so much bad sleep with bad associations, it was just reassuring that I was able to sleep again. I guess I look back and a lot of the stuff that I was doing was, I was making it worse by trying to go bed earlier and staying in bed later. Before you know it, I was basically setting myself up for failure the next night because I just wasn’t using any of the energy that I did have, because I was so fatigued all the time.
Jake Zandi:
I thought I was sleep deprived, but I don’t think I was ever really sleep deprived. I think a lot of it was just fatigue from the worry. It was doing more damage than lack of sleep at that point.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, one thing that I think is important to recognize, too, is just as it took time maybe for our minds to associate the bed as not a nice place to be, it’s going to take time to retrain our brains, our minds, to see the bed as a place for sleep and as a nice place to be. So, I think it can be helpful to emphasize that just because sometimes we can try these things. For example, we might decide, “Okay, I’m not going to allow myself to sleep on the couch. I’m only going to sleep in my own bed.” Then, after a week or two, you’re not really finding you’re making progress.
Martin Reed:
Really, that’s understandable because just like it took time for the mind to associate the bed with unpleasant wakefulness, it’s probably going to take a little bit of time for it to re-associate the bed with sleep and more pleasant wakefulness. So, it is really a case of just try to be as consistent as possible and really trying to take a long time approach wherever possible.
Jake Zandi:
Right, and it’s not an overnight fix. It’s not going to take one try at it and that’s why I really stuck to it. I wasn’t successful right away. Maybe that first night I was tired from probably the night before so I did get that six and a half hours of sleep and I was like, “Oh, that was great. That was quality.” But it takes time, because then I did have some nights where I was still struggling and still having the negative association, and then still worried. But like I said, overtime I did get … It did only take me about a few nights to start getting back on track, but in between there were some nights where either it took me a while to fall asleep or I was up at a certain time.
Jake Zandi:
But really, once you have those days where you’re not sitting in bed, laying in bed trying to catch up on sleep, and all these other stuff, and trying to take naps and all of that, you’re able to just really feel naturally tired and naturally sleepy at night. You just got to keep trying at it and eventually it will work no matter what, I think. Unless there’s something like a physical ailment or something like that. For me, this was anxiety based. So, this was able to really help, that sleep restriction, and being able to reset and using the CBT-I techniques. It was very helpful. So, I’m very glad I found these techniques through your videos.
Martin Reed:
Now, I want to move on to, we’ve talked a lot about things that you were doing at night, trying to create better conditions for sleep. It would be good for us to move on at some point to things you might have done during the day to help improve your sleep. But before I do that, I just want to check, was there anything else that you can think of that you found helpful in the evenings or at nighttime to create those better conditions for sleep?
Jake Zandi:
For me, what worked for me is just having time to relax. Actually, what I do now is if I had a really busy day, because sometimes I feel like in my more busy days, it’s harder to come down and relax, because I had so much going on. That’s just for me, at least. What I do now is I’ll have a designated hour before bedtime where I relax, I can do some meditations, some breathing techniques, some reading, whatever it may be. It’s actually very so much of the stuff that I would do when I’d reset in the middle of the night, if I had to go get out of bed for 20 minutes or so.
Jake Zandi:
But now, I really focus on mindfulness trying to really just get the brain to slow down, the mind to slow down. Because if you’re overactive in your mind when you’re trying to sleep, it’s just going to take longer. Eventually, sleep drive will kick in and you will fall asleep, but this is something that has really been helping me out, is just meditation, mindfulness, relaxation an hour before bed instead of doing work or whatever, having something that’s very exciting happening. It’s nicer to just come down before bed, and I have allotted myself an hour to do so every night.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that can be really helpful, just giving ourselves that time to unwind. It’s important to emphasize that we’re not using that hour to try and generate sleep or generate sleepiness. It’s just some time for us to relax and unwind, and it can also be helpful to just make, because it helps make that period before we would normally go to bed. Maybe the times that we would look forward to were often the time that we fear or dread. So, if we reserve that hour before bed, for example, for just like it’s me time, I’m just going to do things that I find relaxing, I find enjoyable, I’m not going to do any work, no chores, just good stuff.
Martin Reed:
That period before going to bed can then become a time that we might start to look forward to, which in itself could just be a transformation in our way of thinking of the approach of bedtime. It also just helps ensure that we’re creating better conditions for sleep, just because we’re going to be in a more relaxed state. The arousal is perhaps going to be lower. If we’re doing things we enjoy, it can also maybe even just serve as a distraction. It helps us recognize sleepiness cues.
Martin Reed:
If we’re not wired in the hour before bed, we’re more likely to recognize when we are feeling sleepy instead of fatigued and tired. So, we might then be more likely to go to bed when conditions are much better for sleep.
Jake Zandi:
Exactly. I do want to bring up one point, Martin. An issue that did come up that I did realize, so once I got my sleep back on track, I felt like doing the sleep restriction and all of that was extremely helpful. When I got almost too confident, I start to drift away a little bit. What would happen was I would get too goal oriented before bed with certain things. It’s happened here and there, not every night, but it could be that one night where I’m really thinking about something about whether it’d be work, an event coming up, or whatever it may be.
Jake Zandi:
Those goal oriented thoughts will keep you awake, at least it does for me. So, it is good to have that relaxation time, that you time, but maybe stay away from the goal oriented stuff and just do the relaxing things you enjoy doing. So, that’s just one point that did come up, because there was a couple of nights, actually … No, there was a couple of nights where I had something on my mind and that kept me up. Then, the next day I was like, “Oh, no, am I back? Am I relapsing? Is this happening?”
Jake Zandi:
But no, I just implemented the techniques again and was able to get through that, but definitely having that relaxation time before bed and doing relaxing things is key to really help you, like you said, look forward to going, transitioning into the night and going to sleep.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. Unless you have anything else to add in terms of the night time side of the equation, maybe now would be a good time to move on to the day.
Jake Zandi:
Oh, yes.
Martin Reed:
Because so much of our sleep is actually influenced by what we do during the day rather than by what we do during the night. So, I thought that would be good to touch upon. So, on reflection, what kind of changes do you feel you made to what you do during the day that perhaps helped you improve your sleep at night?
Jake Zandi:
Okay, yeah, I’m glad you brought that up because this was very important and this really helped turn my bad sleep around and get back to normal, better sleep. Throughout the day, before, when I was first going through all these sleep problems, like I said, I’d never gone through anything like this before, I was so hyper-focused on it all day. It became that vicious cycle of, “I’m worried, am I going to get a good night sleep?” From the moment I wake up to the moment I go to bed, I was worried. This lasted or months, until I was able to implement CBT-I techniques.
Jake Zandi:
But now, what I do is I try to wake up in a positive, optimistic mindset, try to have the best day I can have. I exercise more now. I know it’s winter, where I am it’s cold in this time of year, so I’d go on my … I had a exercise bike at home that I’d go on and do that, do some cardiovascular stuff. Then, I’d go do work. So, in the morning, I wake up, do some exercise, go to work, try to socialize as much as I could with people. Do things that I typically would have avoid when I was going through the worst of my insomnia.
Jake Zandi:
I would avoid going out and that was huge avoidance. That was a way to cope, I guess, to, “Well, I’m too fatigued to go out. Too tired to do this.” I basically had to push myself and start doing my normal activities, much normal as I can make it, because we’re still going through COVID and things were still restricted. But there’s definitely that light at the end of the tunnel, but anyways, it’s just keeping busy, keeping up with friends, family, just anything you can do to really just keep your mind off of all the sleeping.
Jake Zandi:
Because when you think about it all day, you’re basically setting yourself up for an anxious night, but yeah, those are things that I do now. I go out, I have things to look forward to. I make plans. At first, when I was first going through this, I was afraid to make plans for the next day, or a few days, because I’d be afraid, “Oh, what if I have a bad night? I won’t be able to perform and go do what I needed to do, or spend time with people I want to spend time with.” But once I started to, and even if I did have a bad night, start going out and start making plans again and doing things, I started feeling more confident as well.
Jake Zandi:
I was almost looking at sleep as it’s good for you, it’s important but it’s not as important as I thought it was. It’s not going to keep me from doing the things I love doing. It was getting to the point where I was so sick of just worrying, and worrying, and worrying, and Googling things and watching all these videos and stuff. No offense to your videos because those were very helpful, but it was like, that consumes so much of my time before that I brought to bed with me every night. I worried. The worry was more powerful than having a bad night’s sleep in means of being fatigued and not feeling well the next day.
Jake Zandi:
I feel like I’ve come to learn, but yeah, it’s important to keep up and do the things that you love doing and not let this consume your life. There’s so many people that go through sleep issues or insomnia. Like I said, I felt very desperate at times for help and I didn’t know what to do at first. I didn’t know if I needed to go to the doctor, or get on sleeping pills, or supplements, or whatever. I was very hesitant, so I didn’t do that. I didn’t want to become addicted to sleeping pills. Sometimes they can give you sleep but not … Like you’ve said in some of your videos, it makes it easier for you to turn on that nervous system and fall asleep because it doesn’t generate sleep.
Jake Zandi:
Those medications just help with all the anxiety and stuff like that, because sleep is just natural, biological process. So, hopefully I didn’t go too far off topic on that.
Martin Reed:
No, I think that was all really, really helpful stuff. I think it’s so important to be as active and engaged as possible during the day and independently of sleep, not without sleep to control what we might do during the day for so many reasons. If nothing else, because one of our biggest thoughts that can keep us awake at night is concern about what the next day will be like if we don’t fall asleep, or if we don’t get certain amount of sleep. So, if we can just explore that belief by seeing what we are capable of doing during the day, even after difficult nights of sleep, we might surprise ourselves.
Martin Reed:
We might recognize that perhaps we do have some control over the quality of our day than how we sleep the previous night. I think we do have more control over the quality of our day, how we feel during the day than sleep alone. If we do things that we enjoy during the day, even after difficult nights, by their very nature because we’re doing enjoyable activities, we’re going to get some sense of enjoyment out of that activity. But it can be difficult, because our minds can be screaming at us to conserve energy, to not do anything, to cancel all of our plans because we are just not capable. Our brain wants to trick us into telling us we’re not capable after difficult nights of sleep, or after no sleep.
Martin Reed:
This can perpetuate the problem, because then we kind of … We’re often canceling plans that we might have otherwise enjoy it, so we’re guaranteeing that a difficult night leads to a difficult day or a less pleasant day. Then, because we’re less active, we’re not really doing stuff, then our mind has got all these free time on its hands.
Jake Zandi:
Exactly.
Martin Reed:
It’s going to want to worry, it’s going to want to generate anxiety. We might then want to try doing things like napping, which is going to reduce that sleep drive if we nap. If we can’t nap, then we worry even more because we can’t nap. So, doing good stuff during the day can really help break that connection between sleep, quality of sleep and quality of our days. When we can start to recognize that we do have a lot of control over how we feel during the day, this is not to say that sleep has no influence, it definitely does. But we do have a lot of control over how we feel during the day.
Martin Reed:
If we can break that connection between 100% of my day is predetermined by how I sleep 100% of the time, we might then start to put a little bit less pressure on ourselves to sleep. That thought that I must fall back to sleep, I must get a certain amount of sleep otherwise today will be awful. We can chip away the anxiety that kind of thinking can generate. So, in turn, we start to enjoy better days, and because we are a little bit less worried about sleep, we can start to enjoy better nights too.
Jake Zandi:
Oh, exactly. This is one thing that I did. I heard somewhere, I can’t remember now, I think it was a quote, but it was, “Don’t live to sleep. Sleep to live.” I’m not sure where that … I came across that when I was doing some research or whatever, but that really stuck with me, because you should be enjoying your life. You shouldn’t let a bad night sleep really ruin the whole next day, because you might be a little tired, fatigued, or whatever, but you can still get through the day. You can really get through the day and still have an enjoyable day.
Jake Zandi:
Even if it’s walking out, going to the park, and then just being out in the sunshine and enjoying the sounds of the birds chirping, or whatever. It’s honestly much better than sitting at home on your couch and just wallowing, worrying, because I feel like for me at least, the worry was doing much more damage than the lack of sleep. Then, regardless, in the end, your body always does generate that sleep that you need. If anything, you do get that minimum amount of sleep that your body will need to get through the next day. So, I don’t know, throughout this whole process, I don’t think it didn’t happen … Everything happens for a reason, I believe.
Jake Zandi:
I’m very optimistic and I believe in things like that happening. I think that for me this was, I wasn’t paying attention to myself. I wasn’t taking care of myself enough mentally and physically. This was like a wake up call, if anything, literally, because I was awake all the time. Anyways, it was quite the experience, and at first it was very, very scary, but in time in using CBT-I techniques, you’ll get that confidence again. So, it’s been great.
Martin Reed:
I think that just doing anything during the day, anything you can add to your day, even if it’s just something small, like a walk around the block, or walking out to the coffee shop, or anything that we can add to our day that we might otherwise have avoided based on how we sleep is helpful. We don’t have to be out training for our marathon. Just any kind of activity or anything we enjoy. These things don’t even have to all be physical. Just things that we are passionate about, that motivate us, that gives us a sense of enrichment, or enjoyment.
Martin Reed:
These are all great things we can add to our lives. If we do it independently of sleep, there’s never a negative outcome, because we’re going to have better days and we’re going to maybe put less pressure on our selves to sleep, so we might have better nights in response to. I think something you touched upon with that quote as well is, when we’re all on our deathbeds, hopefully a long, long time from now, we’re not really going to look back on our lives and think, “February 3rd, 1996 was a great night of sleep. That gave my life all of its meaning.”
Martin Reed:
Instead, we’re going to be remembering all the things we did when we were awake, that added enrichment and joy to our lives. This show us that really what happens during the day is far more important than what happens at night. So, perhaps if we can focus our attention and our efforts on living our day time life independently of sleep, then perhaps sleep will take care of itself because we’re then not giving it the attention, or putting the effort into sleep, the two things that can make sleep much more difficult.
Jake Zandi:
Exactly, I couldn’t agree more. It’s just what you do during the day is just so important. So, if you just waste away, waste your day and not do anything, you’re going to continue to have the problem. So, for anyone listening, it is good to get out and stay busy, and do things that you really enjoy doing. Like you said, Martin, even walking around the block, that can make a world of difference for the next night, honestly.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. So, what’s an average night like for you these days, Jake? I’m guessing you’re probably not tracking your sleep that much these days compared to when you were struggling, but just on reflection, how would you describe an average night?
Jake Zandi:
Well, an average now, like I said, I don’t really think too much about it. The only thing I really implement now would be that relaxation time at the end of each day. If I don’t do that, then I set myself up for a little bit harder time falling asleep. I don’t think about it as much at all really. I don’t talk. Some days I used to talk to my fiancee about it all the time, or my mom, I’m very close to my mom. I’d call her and be like, “Oh, I didn’t sleep good last night.” Or, she’d ask me how I was doing, or how I’ve been sleeping, but this is something that’s just really kind of … it’s irrelevant now.
Jake Zandi:
It’s something I don’t really worry about. So, talking about it less and less, thinking about it less and less. I’m now sleeping, I think last night I slept eight and a half hours, which is, that was pretty awesome. This is coming from someone who’s going through night after night of just terrible poor quality anxiety ridden sleep. But yeah, I slept really good last night. Then, maybe the night before that I slept probably seven and that’s all I want. My goal is to just get back to seven to eight hours and I’m back doing that.
Jake Zandi:
So, I’m thinking less and less about it. I’m worried about it less and less. If I talk to you about maybe a month ago, I’d probably still be very anxiety ridden. But I’m doing pretty good. I feel good and my sleep is basically back on track. It’s 99%, because you’re not always going to have a perfect night, and I don’t expect to always have a perfect night.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think it’s that shift in the mindset, which is really the key evidence of success, because when we don’t really worry about sleep, we’re not really paying attention to sleep, thus typically when we’re sleeping the best. So, if you just ask an average person on the street, “Oh, how many hours of sleep did you get last night?” They’ll just going to guess, they’ll think about it for a few seconds, “When did I go to bed? When did I get out of bed?” And just fill that entire period with sleep. But when we have insomnia, when we’re struggling, we kind of know everything about our sleep almost down to the minute.
Martin Reed:
We’re really analytical, we’re really monitoring. Perhaps we can use that. If we can recognize that there has been this difference, maybe we can use that as evidence that paying so much attention to sleep and really monitoring for sleep maybe isn’t that helpful. Maybe if we can just take an approach of, sleep is going to happen, accepting each night for what it is, shifting our attention to what we do during the day, and just allowing sleep to come naturally, because sleep does want to come naturally. It’s only when we crave it, when we strive for it that it tends to be a bit more elusive. That can be so helpful.
Jake Zandi:
For sure. So, it really is like that, it will happen, it will happen. That’s what I really got out of sleep restriction, like I said, it was the biggest technique that worked for me, it really did. Once I had a few nights of good quality, six and a half hours of sleep, that was better than the nine hours laying in bed, getting four or five hours of broken sleep or whatever. So, yeah, anytime I feel like I’ve reset, but you have to work at it. It didn’t come free. It came with having to implement techniques, but now, yeah, I don’t think about it really.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Jake Zandi:
So, it’s freeing, a very good feeling.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Jake, I really appreciate all the time that you’ve given up to come on to the podcast. I just know that many, many people listening to this are going to get a lot of value from it, and it’s going to prove to be really helpful, but there is one last question that I haven’t asked you yet, and it’s a question that I asked everyone that comes on. So, I would like to ask you, too, and it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and feels as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, and they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?
Jake Zandi:
I’d say, don’t give up on yourself and don’t, really, just don’t feed into the negative sleep thoughts. Try to turn those negative thoughts into positive thoughts. Really, really try to implement. I know it sounds scary, but try the sleep restriction. Try to reset as well. If you can’t fall asleep, get out of bed. Do something relaxing for about, 20, 30 minutes and try again, because you’ll be successful eventually. If you have to do it multiple times, you have to do it multiple times, but don’t give up on yourself.
Jake Zandi:
Don’t feed into those negative sleep thoughts. Turn those sleep thoughts, those negative sleep thoughts into positive sleep thoughts and eventually, you will reset. You will feel better. Get out. Live your life. Don’t wallow. I know it’s easier said than done, but I struggled for a while with this and I’m someone that would never have struggled with this, I don’t think. But with everything happening in the world, I did get very stressed out and very anxious about a lot of things.
Jake Zandi:
But in the end, just don’t give up. In time, if it takes you five weeks, or if it takes you six months to have the sleep restriction work, it will work. You’ll have that confidence back. I think that’s really all I got to say.
Martin Reed:
That’s great. Just because I know people are going to be thinking this, do you have any tips on how you might turn those negative sleep thoughts into more positive ways of thinking?
Jake Zandi:
Well, for me at least, having a positive day, do you know what I mean? Trying to turn, almost like I had to rewire my brain, it felt like, but if I went out and I had a positive day, smile more, try to just get out and enjoy time with friends, family. Yeah, the more positive things that you do or just getting out of bed and getting off the couch or whatever, and getting out into life, my mindset and my thought process became more positive in general.
Jake Zandi:
I was able to think, you know what? Instead of having a bad night tonight and worrying about it, I was like, “You know what? I’m going to sleep good.” Even telling myself, “I’m going to have a good night sleep tonight.” It worked. So, it was very helpful.
Martin Reed:
That was great. So, I think one thought that you can have which maybe you would consider one of your negative sleep thoughts would be something maybe, “Oh, if I don’t sleep tonight, tomorrow will be awful.” So, you’ve kind of identified that as a thought that is a challenge for you. So, then, you’ve put some effort into making the next days better, independently of how you sleep and then through your own experience. Maybe you’ve been able to turn that thought on its head. So, one like, “If I don’t sleep well tonight, I know that there are things I can do to feel better during the day tomorrow.”
Martin Reed:
That’s just off the top of my head. Is that the kind of thing that you’re getting out, like the way you can just transform your way of thinking around sleep?
Jake Zandi:
Yeah, that’s basically it, no matter what. Because for me, if I didn’t do anything and I sat around and I felt bad for myself all day, those thoughts would continue to … I’d be in this rabbit hole of negative thinking about it. Even if you just go out, like you said, do something, take a walk, go around the block, even something so simple like that, it’s going to really change your mindset. It doesn’t sound like it might not work as well, but if you get out and just try it, you’ll notice the difference. It really works.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. Absolutely. All right, great, Jake. Well, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. Again, I really appreciate you giving up the time out of your day. I think we covered lots of great points and I think it’s going to help lots and lots of people, everything that we’ve discussed. So, thank you.
Jake Zandi:
Well, thank you for having me, Martin. Thank you.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com.
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1 hr 8 min
June 30, 2021How Celia improved her sleep by abandoning all attempts to control her sleep and accepting and acknowledging anxious thoughts rather than trying to fight or avoid them (#29)
Listen to the podcast episode (audio only)
From a very young age, Celia would often try to control her sleep and often used medication to get her through her frequent bouts of insomnia. After the birth of her son and the emergence of the COVID pandemic, Celia became even more fixated on sleep. All of her old sleep crutches seemed to stop working and she didn’t know what to do.
Celia began to spend her days researching sleep and looking for options. She had heard about evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques that can help tackle the thoughts and behaviors that perpetuate sleep disruption, but she found the techniques difficult to implement and whenever she experienced some difficult nights she felt she was back to square one.
Fortunately, Celia did not give up. She decided it was time to stop allowing insomnia to be part of her identity and began to implement new habits that would create better conditions for sleep. Instead of trying to eliminate anxiety and spending her days obsessing about sleep, she learned to acknowledge and accept anxious thoughts and lived the life she wanted to live, independently of sleep.
Celia recognized that it was her desire to control sleep and her sleep-related thoughts that was a big part of the problem. When she was able to accept that she couldn’t directly control sleep or her thoughts and committed to implementing behaviors that would create better conditions for sleep and help her live life according to her values, she was able to starve her insomnia of the oxygen it craved and enjoy the life (and sleep) that she wanted.
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hi, Celia, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast.
Celia Garforth:
No problem. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me.
Martin Reed:
It’s great to see you too. I’m just so excited to have you on, because I remember when we first started working together, you actually shared that one of your goals was to be a success story and to come on as a guest at some point in the future, and here you are now.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah. It definitely was. As I said to you in our emails to start with, I discovered you and your work through the podcast and it was listening to the stories of other people that you’d worked with that actually made me… Because I’d heard about CBT-I and I’d always been resistant to trying it because it seemed quite horrible. So listening to the podcast was really, really motivating for me to reach out and actually get things started and do it for myself. So that was a bit of a north star for me as I was going through it, just knowing that at some point in the future that I could come on and talk to everybody else about my experience and hopefully help some people in the way that the people you spoke to before helped me. So thank you.
Martin Reed:
Absolutely. Hopefully everyone listening to this by the end of this discussion will think, maybe in the future I’ll be on this podcast as a success story too.
Celia Garforth:
Exactly.
Martin Reed:
So let’s rewind and go right to the beginning. When did your sleep problems first begin and what do you think caused your initial issues with sleep?
Celia Garforth:
I mean, probably my dad, because it’s definitely, I guess, a learned behavior in my family. My dad has always been very anxious and he always had sleeping issues, which probably projected on to us. I have two sisters and both of them are not great at sleeping. And so probably from a very young age, I remember having weird control issues around sleep, and I used to share a set of bunk beds with my sister and I had these weird things where I had to make sure she was asleep before I could fall asleep. And there’s all these kinds of weird things that I learned growing up around sleep, so it was never an effortless thing that you don’t think about, it was always something that was in the back of my mind. And I probably medicated my way through bouts of sleeplessness in the past, and at university I had issues with it and I smoked a lot weed.
Celia Garforth:
I know we spoke quite a few times about how that had been a bit of a crutch for me longer term. It was always bouts of, I guess, transient insomnia that came and went, but it would last a few days or when I’d have jet lag. I was always like, I will never sleep on planes or I’ll have troubles. When I go somewhere different and I’m in a different sleep environment, I won’t be able to sleep very well. So that was the story of my life.
Martin Reed:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Celia Garforth:
Never had the healthiest relationship with sleep, but it was totally manageable and not something that was really causing too much I guess, negative impact on my life more broadly. Then I guess when, probably what you’d technically diagnose as more like chronic insomnia started after the birth of my first son, which obviously a very stressful time anyway. I’m in Australia, my whole family is in the UK. Obviously because of COVID, couldn’t see any of them. That was all that extra issue going on, so I was very anxious new mom. I think as well, I was projecting a lot of my own baggage when it comes to sleep onto my relationship with my son’s sleep. And I know a lot of new moms are obsessed with their children’s sleep because it’s all… You’ve got kids, you know what it’s like.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
The whole schedule is based around them sleeping and then having to go sleep with them at a certain sleep window. And so you’re just constantly obsessing about their sleep, and I had this added baggage of, oh, it’s going to affect my sleep. And if he doesn’t nap then, and I read too many stupid sleep consultant training books for kids that basically told you if your kid didn’t sleep perfectly, then they were a write off and they were never going to have a good relationship with sleep.
Martin Reed:
Right.
Celia Garforth:
Seriously, the baby sleep consultant industry has a lot to answer for in causing my issues. And of course my son was actually as babies go, pretty much a perfect sleeper. Almost from get go would sleep through the night, but I was just still projecting all this stuff onto him and trying to control his sleep. And when he’d have a bad night or he wouldn’t nap, I’d get more anxious and I think it all just came to a head, and I started just not sleeping. And it flipped from worrying about his sleep to just constantly focusing on my own sleep. So this was probably when he was about six months old. We were mid COVID lockdown, which is very lucky out here. We only had one lockdown and life has been pretty much fairly normal since, so it’s definitely not a woe is me story. Lots of other people have it a lot worse than me.
Celia Garforth:
So I guess that was when my sleep started getting worse. I think unlike previously when I had transient insomnia and it went away, I was then just focused on relying on the old crutches I had. Well, I couldn’t smoke weed because I was breastfeeding. So that was fun thing. And I couldn’t really take sleeping pills, so I guess, I didn’t have any of my crutches. So then I was spiraling into this space where I don’t know what to do, looking for options, Googling, spending my days obsessed with it.
Celia Garforth:
I think I’m someone who probably didn’t cope that well not being at work if I’m honest, because that was a very good distraction for me. And I think being mom in lockdown with nothing to focus on except my own sleeping issues was the perfect storm for me just getting stuck in the spiral. And then I reached out to psychiatrist and a psychologist, and then I started taking prescription medication for anxiety, which definitely helped for a short period of time. And then that stopped working and then that made it even worse because I was like, “Oh my God, I’ve exhausted all the solutions.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
That’s it. I’m condemned to a lifetime of not sleeping. What the hell am I going to do? I’m sure you’ve heard this story a million times before. It was very much a vicious cycle of just self perpetuating, spiraling and hunting for external solutions and not realizing that there was really no external solution and I just needed to change my relationship with sleep and stop worrying about it essentially. So yes, I guess when I found CBT-I, actually my psychiatrist recommended a free online course for it here. So I did that, but I found it really difficult because I did the sleep restriction, but I wasn’t sure if I was doing it right. And then I tried it for a week or two and it worked and then I’d have a couple of bad nights and I would just spiral again and it was just very up and down. And I probably wasn’t properly committed to it either. So that’s when I initially made contact with you, I think.
Martin Reed:
That’s great. It was really interesting when you interjected upon yourself. You said you’ve probably heard all this before because from person-to-person insomnia is so similar. It’s quite remarkable. And regular listeners of this podcast will know that we actually have this model for the development of insomnia called the 3P model whereby the first P is predisposed. Some of us are just a bit more predisposed to insomnia. So in your case, it sounds like maybe there was some issues with insomnia running in the family. It brings more attention to sleep, more focus to sleep. Maybe we’re a little bit more responsive to sleep disruption. You want to control sleep. And then we have that second P, the precipitating event, which is what triggers the sleep disruption. Could be anything.
Martin Reed:
Definitely having a child qualifies. The pandemic, COVID, that qualifies. Getting a new job, changing job, anything that affects our life can lead to some sleep disruption. And normally sleep gets right back on track, as it sounds like you often experienced yourself. You would go through these periods of sleep disruption, but then it would get back on track, but sometimes it doesn’t. And that’s usually down to the third P in our model, which is the perpetuating factors. And these are all the thoughts and behaviors that we have because we want quite understandably to improve our sleep, but fortunately backfire and have the opposite result, and they keep the sleep disruption alive because we might do things like spending more time researching sleep, for example, thinking about sleep, putting pressure on ourselves to sleep, maybe spending more time in bed, maybe trying to nap during the day, modifying our days all around sleep.
Martin Reed:
So all these things that we then do because we want to improve our sleep can actually keep insomnia alive. And apart from the specific details, that’s really what insomnia is all about, and we see it from person-to-person. So it’s really interesting how you describe that and then actually made that observation yourself. You’ve probably heard this all before, because it does follow that really predictable pattern.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, it is. And it’s funny because obviously now I’m hyper aware of other people with sleep issues and constantly referring them to do CBT-I. And it always tends to be actually a lot of people I work with. I guess I worked in quite a high stress job. I work in advertising. It’s not exactly low key. And obviously during the pandemic, I think even over here in Australia where we haven’t had it as badly, people are experiencing a lot more stress and anxiety and sleep disruption. And it always tends to be the more control freak Type A people who are used to controlling every aspect of their life. And I think it’s that illusion of being able to control sleep, I think that gets you into such hot water in the first place. And also is just makes you feel so helpless and hopeless when you’re going through it, because you just don’t know what to do in every other aspect of your life.
Celia Garforth:
And this is like parenting too with a child. You can’t control them either. But with every other aspect of your life, the more you try, the better the results. And so you’re conditioned to try harder and do more and invest all this energy into something, and it’s actually the complete opposite with sleep. And I think that’s the trap, isn’t it?
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
Part of the predisposition is probably a lot of people who are a little bit more controlling in other aspects of their life.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I would completely agree with you. And I think it’s really important to not be hard on ourselves because we are implementing these behaviors because like you said, pretty much everything in life responds positively to effort and sleep is the one thing that doesn’t. So when we go through life connecting effort to success, 99.9% of the time, that’s probably true, so we want to do the same for sleep. But sleep is one of those rare exceptions. And the more we try, the more we strive, the more we put effort into sleep, the harder it seems to become and the more elusive it is.
Celia Garforth:
But interestingly and I spoke quite a bit to my psychiatrist about this, that’s probably why I found your program really useful because it did feel like you were implementing something. Because I think the worst part for me was feeling like I was treading water and I wasn’t getting anywhere. And at least with almost a structured program, you’re like, “Well, even if I’m not seeing necessarily my sleep improving in the short term, I know I’m doing something positive and putting effort into something that is going to help in the longer term, if that makes sense.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think it does-
Celia Garforth:
It’s channeling your efforts into something more useful, I guess.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, exactly. I like to say that we can’t control sleep, but we are going to want to put effort or put control into solving the problem of insomnia. So what we want to do is put all of that effort and attention into creating good conditions for sleep and putting all that effort and attention into exploring the thoughts and behaviors that can perpetuate sleep disruption, because we’re always going to have difficult nights every now and then. And it’s almost always down to our reactions to those difficult nights that determines how long they stick around for. And if we address those thoughts and behaviors that perpetuate sleep disruption, it’s really hard for insomnia to stick around for the long-term.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah. And that is definitely the biggest shift. I know I said this to you before, but the biggest shift for me is how I respond to bad nights because of course, I still have them. They’re not as bad as they used to be. So when I was probably in the worst period, I would go a few nights with just having two or three hours sleep, heavily sedated. I’d wake up my husband. I’d be in floods of tears. I’d almost be having a panic attack. It was awful. And now if I have a bad night, I just get up, go and sit. It’s calm, it’s peaceful.
Celia Garforth:
I don’t like it. It’s not great, because no one likes being awake in the middle of the night, but it’s actually fine. And then the next day I get up, I stick to my routine and I get on with things. Maybe even it’s a few nights or a week where it’s not great sleep, but it always gets back on track. And the more times you do it, the more times you get used to it. And now it’s almost just a part of life and it’s fine. Sometimes you have days where you’re not feeling as great as other ones and that’s just fine.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. Like you touched upon really, a lot of it does come down to our reaction to the difficult nights. Because the more we react, the more we can perpetuate that sleep disruption often due to heightened arousal; more worry, more anxiety about sleeping. When we’re worried about sleep or anxious about sleep, our body then needs to generate more sleep drive. So in other words, we just need to be awake for longer in order to overpower that arousal.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
But if nothing else that shows that sleep always happens in the end, it’s just when we have a lot of arousal, a lot of anxiety. Unfortunately, we need to be awake for longer to overpower that. So it can be helpful to take a two-pronged approach and ie, can help build sleep drive by allotting an appropriate amount of time for sleep, and we can see what we can do to help weaken or to help lower that arousal system. When we tackle sleep drive and arousal, we often see some long-term improvements in sleep.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, totally. I’d be lying if I said I was never anxious about sleep, but it’s something that lessens with time and you go through periods of great sleep and not so great sleep. Like you say, it’s totally how you react to it. And my husband says this to me when I’ve had a bad night. He’s like, “The difference is you’re like a different person.” I think one of the biggest things for me as well doing your course is just understanding the basics of sleep and how sleep works. I’ve done the course. I know everything there is to know, not everything, but I know what I need to know about sleep therefore I don’t need to spend the next day searching for solutions. That’s dumb. And I think that’s the biggest difference.
Celia Garforth:
Before where you’re constantly searching for solutions and stuff, now it’s just like… And I remember saying to my sister who’s actually a doctor, so I would constantly ring her when I was having a terrible time in the middle of the night. I was like, “What should I do? What should I do?” And she kept saying to me, “You don’t need to do anything. That’s your problem.” And I think it takes a while to internalize that advice, but I think that’s the biggest thing for me was… And it comes back to that putting effort into the wrong place thing. It’s like you have a bad night, instead of waking up the next day and making a whole plan for the next night and what you’re going to do and how you’re going to solve it. You’re just like, “That’s dumb. I may have a good night the next night, I might not, but it actually doesn’t matter.” That’s it.
Celia Garforth:
There’s no need to spend the whole day Googling it. There’s no need to invest energy in worrying about it. I’m just going to get on with the day and that’s it. And that’s a really, really hard mind shift, especially for someone who has always had an obsession with sleep and was worrying about my son’s sleep. And that’s probably the biggest thing for me is, on a constant recovery journey is just reminding yourself that if you feel yourself falling into that spiral where you are looking things up, it’s like, no, I’m done. There’s nothing more I need to know, and there’s nothing more I need to do. Just stick with the basics of what I’ve already learned and that’s it.
Martin Reed:
Yes. And spending all that time searching for solutions or researching sleep is completely understandable why we would do that because again, we want to solve the problem. But it tends not to reveal any big insights. It tends only to just draw more focus and attention to sleep and make us worry more about sleep. And that can be one of those behaviors that perpetuates sleep disruption. In connection to that, another common perpetuating behavior is trying to conserve energy or adjusting our days based on how we slept. So we might cancel plans, we might stop exercising, things like that. Or maybe even call in sick to work.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah. You can’t do that with a child, unfortunately. Call my son.
Martin Reed:
Right. Exactly. But I think in a way it’s good when we have some kind of obligation that keeps our day somewhat structured, like going into work or having to take care of our children, because if nothing else, it ensures that we do have to get out of bed in the morning, we do have opportunities to do things other than think and worry about sleep throughout the day. Often we can have that temptation, just going back to the work example, to call in sick to work because we just feel like we can’t do it. But then the issue is, we probably end up staying at home doing even more thinking or worrying about sleep, maybe napping during the day. Not giving ourselves that opportunity to see if we can have some good moments during the day, because when we cancel our days in response to difficult nights of sleep, then we guarantee that difficult night equals difficult day. And again comes back to perpetuating that sleep disruption.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, totally. Again, when I first was having sleep disruption at the beginning before I got on the recovery journey, it was very much… Because I was on maternity leave at the time, I even made my husband take two weeks off work because I was like, “I’m not coping. I can’t look after Louis during the day.” I mean, it was helpful obviously because I wanted some help during the day because I wasn’t feeling great. But I then felt like I was suspended in this emergency crisis status almost. And that I think then perpetuated the issue of me feeling like there was something wrong with me and I had to solve it. I’ve been back at work six months, so I haven’t called in sick once because of sleep, even though I’ve had a few bad nights and you just get on with it.
Celia Garforth:
At the beginning I told my boss when I went back to work, I’d had had sleep issues and he used to ask me about it, and I actually said to him, “Don’t even bother asking me about it. I don’t want to talk about it. I want to pretend I’m a normal person that doesn’t have this because that will help me be a normal person who doesn’t have sleep problems.” And remarkably, if you don’t tell anyone you’ve had a bad night, then no one notices because you just get on with it and you almost forget, weirdly.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
So yeah, it’s a real kind of… You just got to get on with it. In fact, my youngest sister who has two children and both her kids are terrible sleepers. She’s same to me, “Every time I’ve had a bad night because of the kids, I just get up and you’re sleep walking through the day, but you just pretend that you’ve had eight hours and you’re fine, and that’s it.” So it’s almost pretending with yourself that everything’s fine and then it is.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think sometimes maybe taking that approach of faking it until you make it can be helpful.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, exactly.
Martin Reed:
If nothing else, it just helps shift that focus and attention away from sleep and often the less attention we pay to sleep, the easier it becomes. On this note, I remember when we first started working together, you were still on maternity leave, and then you were returning to work whilst we were still working together. And you told me how important it also was at the same time for you to just stay physically active, to stay mentally active. You joined a morning boot camp. You were swimming. You were keen to start cycling to the office when you went back to work.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
What was it that prompted you to be so enthusiastic and determined to remain so active even when you were still struggling with sleep? I mean, was that something that was just always part of your identity or was it you just wanted to shift, focus and attention away from sleep?
Celia Garforth:
Definitely a bit of both. I’ve always been super active. Part of it was having a routine and I always felt better even if I’d had a bad night. In fact, sometimes I’d get up and be I like, oh. I say to my husband, “I just cannot cope with the idea of boot camp this morning.” He’d be like, “Get out of here, go.” And I’m fortunate enough to live by the ocean and it’s beautiful and you get out there and you’re with a group of people and you’re forced to be in the moment and socialize with the people and feel like… You don’t talk about it, you just get on with it, you do the boot camp, get in the sea, have a swim.
Celia Garforth:
And it’s just remarkable how that just sets you up for the day and you feel like you’ve achieved something. And I’m sure that being physically active during the day and you’re in the sunshine right from the beginning of the day, I’m sure that helps with setting a circadian rhythm and all that kind of stuff as well. But it’s also just a determination to not let it beat me into submission. And it helps with anxiety too, you feel the adrenaline. And everything about exercise has always been very helpful for me with mental health and just setting yourself up positively for the day. And it was a challenge to myself that I could go to boot camp regardless.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think that’s a really big point that you can still do regardless of how you sleep, because it can just be so easy to believe that we are just completely incapable after those really difficult nights or when we have stretches of really difficult nights, our brain is just urging us to rest and do nothing and just recuperate and conserve energy. But unfortunately, that doesn’t usually prove to be too helpful. It doesn’t really help reduce fatigue. It just leads to more time thinking and worrying about sleep. But if we can just… even if it’s just a case of faking until you make it, just try and do some kind of activity, if nothing else, if it’s something you enjoy, it’s going to give you a little bit more enjoyment out of your day. It’s going to improve the quality of your day a little bit. It does help reduce fatigue because you’re moving about. And it can help you recognize that you do have some degree of influence over the quality of your day, and you can still have some certain amount of capability during the day, even after difficult nights.
Martin Reed:
And when we repeatedly prove this to ourselves, it can lead to us putting less pressure on ourselves to sleep and not seeing difficult nights as being a guarantee of a completely awful day every single time you have a hard night.
Celia Garforth:
Totally. And I used to say to my husband, if nothing else comes out of this bad experience, then at least I’m going to get my body back after having a child because I go to boot camp every day. And so at least that’s some positive.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
I don’t know. It’s just having little things where you’re focused on them and part of not identifying as an insomniac, therefore you can’t do anything. I think it’s really important as well to step out of that identity as someone who has bad sleep, because I think that’s just so unhelpful and that’s, I guess, the part of the faking it thing as well. I think I used to, when I’d have a bad night sleep, it’s like, I’m a bad sleeper therefore I can’t do this. And the same, actually, when I started sleep restriction, it was almost quite freeing because I’d always… I know you said at the beginning that a lot of people with sleep issues go to bed too early. That was definitely me.
Celia Garforth:
When I was pregnant, I needed a lot of sleep, so I’d go to bed at 8:00 or 8:30 and sleep 10 or 11 hours. And I think that almost continued into office because also when Louis was little, I was getting up a lot in the nights, so we would go to bed early. But by the time he was sleeping through the night, there was absolutely no reason for me to go to bed at 8:30, but I still was, and I’d wonder why I wasn’t falling asleep.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
And so when I looked into sleep and I’d always been obsessive about I have to have eight hours and I have to be… but I was in bed for 10 or 11 hours, and it just eat up so much of your life just being in bed. And when I first read about sleep restriction, it sounded awful, which was probably why I was resistant to do CBT-I in the first place. I was like, “Five or six hours. How do people cope on this? I will never be able to cope on this one, blah, blah.” But as soon as I actually tried it, it was like, “Oh, I can. Maybe I am one of these people who can stay up later and still get up early.”
Celia Garforth:
And actually that was so freeing and it’s been really helpful now I’ve gone back to work as well, because sometimes I do need to work late and I don’t have a panic attack about it because I’m like, “It’s actually fine if I work till 8:00 or 9:00 and then still have an hour or two before bed, and then I still can get up for boot camp because I don’t need eight hours.”
Celia Garforth:
The myth busting around that on your course was so helpful for me. And in a way, like I said, it felt quite liberating because now I can do stuff with my evenings, and not… I used to be so fiercely protective of my evenings, like never plan anything in the evening during the week. It was very much just like, no, I can’t do anything after 6:00 PM because that’s my sleep time. And now it’s fine and I really enjoy staying up till 10:30, 11:00, and my husband hates it because that used to be when he could stay up on his own and play PlayStation. And now he goes to bed before me, and he very much begrudges it, but it’s great for me.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think all those concerns you had about sleep restriction, are completely understandable. I think just the terminology there; sleep restriction, my sleep’s already restricted. I’ve got insomnia for goodness sake. Really all we’re doing is just reducing the amount of time available for wakefulness whilst building that sleep pressure, building that sleep drive to help sleep happen. So even if, let’s say for example, you’re going to be following a sleep window only allotting six hours for sleep.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
If that’s the case, then we would typically expect you to be averaging less than six hours of sleep, when you’re observing six hours for sleep. So we’re never taking that opportunity for sleep away from you, we’re just making the amount of time you allot for sleep a bit closer to what your current reality is, closer to your current average nightly sleep duration, to build that sleepiness and reduce that nighttime wakefulness. And like you said, if you’re able to give it a go and be consistent with it, at least for a few weeks, it does tend to bring some really positive results. If nothing else, it can just help you rediscover that sense of sleepiness instead of fatigue as bedtime approaches. And it can just be so freeing being able to spend… just having less time available for nighttime wakefulness and maybe even having a little bit more time in the mornings to actually do things that you enjoy or to be productive.
Celia Garforth:
Totally. And that, I definitely remember when I started sleep restriction, feeling sleepy again in the evening. I’ve never been a person who would fall asleep in front of the TV, but as soon as I started sleep restriction, I was dozing off and it was like, oh, this is great.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
I mean, the first few weeks, I did have occasions where I’d feel sleepy on the sofa. And then when I get into bed, you’d be ping wide awake. Which is probably quite, I think normal experience for people going through it for the first time. But it was really, really useful for me to recognize when I was sleepy again versus just going to bed just because, oh, it’s 8:30, I should go to bed, even though I wasn’t really sleepy all ready for bed. And I definitely recognize that I would have… Even previously when I was pregnant or before I had sleep issues more chronically, I would be in bed at 8:00. I’d say, I think I’d been asleep for eight hours, but probably it was quite broken sleep and I definitely wasn’t asleep for a lot time. And when you restrict the window, you know that you’re in such a deep sleep for that amount of time, and then you still wake up feeling refreshed. It’s almost like you’re just being a bit more efficient with your sleep versus stretching it out and spending loads of time in bed.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. On that note of sleep efficiency, what that means as well is that because we’re spending less time awake in bed, we are retraining our brain, that the bed is a place for sleep rather than all this time spent awake during the night. In effect, we’re just making the bed a much stronger trigger for sleep, just because most of our time is spent in bed asleep rather than awake, which it might be if we’re allotting way too much time for sleep at night.
Celia Garforth:
I definitely developed a bad relationship with my bed. You go in the bedroom and just look at the bed and just be like, “Oh, that’s bad signs.” And now it’s not at all like that. I’m still pretty strict about, I’ll never spend more than half an hour in bed if I’m not asleep. I don’t use the bedroom for anything else.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
So it’s definitely good to retrain your relationship with the bedroom.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So when we were working together, as every client I work with experiences, you are no different. There’s a number of ups and downs over the eight weeks of working together. Now, a common experience you shared with me was, and I think you just touched upon it earlier, was struggling to stay awake until bedtime, drifting off whilst you’re watching TV, but then you get into bed and it just feels impossible to sleep. And I remember you told me that you’d try reading again, but then you’d find it hard to focus on the book you were reading. That might be the time when you’d resort to that external crutch like smoking. And you’d find you then maybe you would fall asleep, but then you’d wake really early and find it hard to fall back to sleep again.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
How did you tackle these challenges?
Celia Garforth:
I just guess just a bit of perseverance, to be honest. I mean, obviously you were really supportive and helpful through it as well. And I guess just trying different things. I got a bit frustrated with myself because I would just resort to get up and smoking some weed. And like you say, it did put me to sleep, but then not for very long and I’d wake up feeling a bit shit. So actually, what I used to do is just come and sit outside on the balcony where I am right now, and just listen to some white noise or an audio book instead. So I guess it was just a bit of trial and error and finding things. Like I said, like trying to read a book. I felt like I was reading a book deliberately to fall asleep and so I couldn’t concentrate on it. So I think I needed something slightly less, I guess, involved, or I could just sit with my eyes shut and listen or deep breathing and then go back to bed. So I guess it’s probably just a bit of trial and error and finding the right thing for you.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. Well, first of all, maybe it’s helpful for us to just emphasize why we often see that real intense sleepiness before bed, and then it disappears when we get into bed and often it is related to that conditioned arousal. We’ve just learned through repeated nights of difficulty sleeping that the bed is a place that’s unpleasant to be. So we can really sleepy before bed, then we get into bed, the brain kicks into gear and says, “Uh-oh! Here we go. This is not a nice place to be.” And then we lose that sense of sleepiness.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
That’s when we can be tempted to resort to those external crutches or those sleep efforts. And usually the most helpful thing to do is whenever being in bed doesn’t feel good, just get out of bed and do something that might make that wakefulness just a little bit more pleasant. That comes with the benefit of just shifting attention away from sleep. It definitely prevents you from putting effort into sleep because you’re getting out of bed, and I think it just also helps prevent you reinforcing that negative association between the bed and unpleasant wakefulness. Because if you’re getting out of bed whenever it doesn’t feel good to be in bed, you’re training yourself that the bed is only a place for sleep or pleasant wakefulness.
Martin Reed:
But it does take time, and it’s a case of just repeatedly getting out of bed whenever being in bed doesn’t feel good. And resisting that temptation to reach for those external crutches, whether it’s a pill in the middle of the night or a supplement in the middle of the night or smoking in the middle of the night. Because all those sleep efforts do is reinforce. If we do fall back to sleep, they reinforce this belief that we need them to generate sleep, which is never true. And if they don’t help us fall back to sleep, then we can worry even more because that crutch is no longer working.
Martin Reed:
I remember when we were about halfway through working together about four weeks in, you were making good progress and then you had that one difficult night, which I think every single client I have experiences. And then you have that difficult night and it brings back all those old anxieties. It can even bring back some of those old bad habits. Now you’re going back to those crutches. You feel like I’m never going to improve. It’s one step forward, two steps back.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
How were you able to get through that and just have that belief and motivate yourself to stay persistent and consistent with what you were doing up to that point?
Celia Garforth:
Right. It’s not like I didn’t feel… I felt all of those anxieties that came back, but probably because I felt like I didn’t really have a choice, but to stick with it and keep moving forward because the other option was going back to where I had been, and I knew that I was making progress and my husband kept reminding me, he was like, “This is not anywhere near as bad as it used to be. This is fine.” And I was just quite strict with myself. I kept going to boot camp, I went to work, I focused on work, I tried to be present with Louis. And then the more times that happened, the more it was easy to tell myself that it’s actually fine to have a few bad nights here and there.
Celia Garforth:
But even a week. Like last week I was a bit ill and was up half the night, one of the nights and I felt awful the next day and then I had to be rough like disrupted nights. But you just get on with it and then your sleep just rectifies. And I don’t know, it’s just such a different mindset shift. Maybe my sleep isn’t even any better than it used to be but it’s fine.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
And I know I don’t need eight hours or nine hours of sleep and I’m not going to die from not having eight or nine hours of sleep a night. I know I can get on with work and everything the next day. I know I’ll sleep fine eventually, and I’ll actually have a really good deep night’s sleep at some point after that and I’ll get back on track and that’ll be fine. And then probably a few weeks or months down the track, it’ll happen again. And that’s just it. When I fully first started speaking to you, I was obsessed with being cured, and I think that’s a really unhealthy thing to fixate on as well, because there is no magical cure. There’s no silver bullet for having perfect sleep. It’s just something that you live with and it’s fine.
Celia Garforth:
Like I said before, it’s how you react to it, and just not letting yourself spiral into all those negative thought patterns that gets you through it. I actually happen to know people around me that are very supportive, but definitely was helpful too. My husband would parrot it back to me, things that I’d told him that you’d said to me, and I was like, shut up.
Martin Reed:
Oh, that’s great.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
I think it’s amazing, isn’t it, how… Let’s say we have, during this journey of changing your thoughts and behaviors about sleep, how you can go for let’s say a week or two weeks or three weeks, and then feel really good about your progress. But then you just have that one difficult night and the brain focuses all this attention on that one difficult night instead of the seven, the 14, the 21 decent nights you had before that.
Martin Reed:
It really is quite amazing. But because that’s where the mind wants to go, the mind doesn’t really care about good stuff because it doesn’t have to problem solve the good stuff. So it focuses all of its attention on the problems. And this can lead to this idea that you’re not doing as well as you actually are. If you can take a step back and think, well, actually I had a good week, I had a good two weeks, I had a good three weeks, this is only one night. Because if we don’t actually do that consciously, the brain will just be like, no, this is it. We’re back to square one, when that is far from the truth.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, totally. And I think I’m definitely an anxious person in general and I worry about things. And I think negativity bias is just something that you do and catastrophizing, and there’s a whole heap of cognitive distortions that you have when you’re a slightly anxious person that just makes it so much worse. Actually, one of the things that I did do… I found a sleep diary, because I kept a sleep diary probably I continued doing it after we finished and I stopped doing it around Christmas because we went away on holiday and I was just feeling great with having such a good run of sleep, so I stopped doing it. But when I’d had a few difficult nights, I’d actually go back and look at the sleep diary and be like, “Oh, I’ve actually been through this before.” Oh yeah. Over here, a few weeks ago I had two really bad nights. And then the third and fourth night, I was fine again.
Celia Garforth:
And so it was just reminding myself almost going back and looking, oh yeah, this has happened already and it was fine, and you’ll get back on track rather than… So I think having that macro view and zooming out and being like, “Oh, look at this.” Instead of being like, “Oh my God, everything was great before and now it’s rubbish.” It was like, “Oh yeah, look, I’ve done this before. I’ve been through this before.” And the more times you go through it and cope with it and get back on track, the more it just becomes part of the journey of just life and just how it goes.
Martin Reed:
Something you touched upon earlier was that desire to get results. So in a way it is understandable why we would be disappointed whenever we have those bad nights, because we’re so desperate to get results, to get rid of this insomnia. Whenever we have those difficult nights, it can feel like a real setback, but the truth is, they’re all part of the process, and occasional sleep disruption from time to time is part of life. There’s nothing we can do about that. But what we can do is just make those one-off difficult nights more likely to just be one off difficult nights rather than something you struggle with every single night for the foreseeable future.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
And so I think maybe shifting attention on to just implementing these behavioral changes to create better conditions for sleep, rather than that ongoing monitoring and evaluation can be really helpful because at the end of the day, if we are able to tackle those thoughts and behaviors that perpetuate sleep disruption, the results are going to come by themselves. And insomnia just cannot survive for the long term without those perpetuating thoughts and behaviors.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, totally. And I think I did indulge in quite a lot of, oh, if only I hadn’t worried so much about my son’s sleep and I really wish I could go back to that time when I was much better at sleeping, even though at the time I thought I was a terrible sleeper. So it’s always that stupid rose-tinted glasses thing. I think all that stuff is in the past, and it was just indulging and I wish I’d done this differently or that differently. It was just so unhelpful because you just stuck it. And that goes back to this whole finding a cure. It’s not an illness that you can cure, it’s something that’s always going to be there if you let it. So I think it’s an ongoing relationship. It’s not a cure or not cure. It’s not like you’re better or you’re not better. Anyone can get it at any time and you can slip back into it at any time. It’s more about just managing your relationship with sleep better and not reacting to it and not going down into that spiral.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think over time that definitely becomes easier as you regain that sleep confidence. When your confidence is quite low, it can just feel like every night of less than perfect sleep or less than kind of sleep you want. Can feel like a real setback when it really is just all part of the process. And I remember that when we were working together, it was at the time when the elections were going on here in the US and everything that was going on. And I remember you saying to me, you experienced some sleep disruption, found yourself you were spending that time to unwind before bed, but then you would just find that your mind was just wired. I think you called it, you’re doom scrolling on Twitter and scrolling and scrolling through that.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
And then you would feel really frustrated and disappointed with yourself the next day, because you had a difficult night of sleep, and because maybe then you reached for those external crutches; you’ve reached for the supplements, you reached for the pills, you’d start smoking or whatever. So I think it can be really helpful to just recognize that difficult nights of sleep every now and then are just a normal part of life, especially if we can recognize or identify an obvious cause of them.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
Often there is quite an obvious cause to these temporary nights of sleep disruption, but sometimes there’s not. But either way, worrying about a previous night of sleep isn’t going to change that. Usually the most helpful thing to do is to just keep moving forward. Even if you are implementing these behavioral changes and you feel you didn’t stick to them one night, that’s okay. All that matters really is the present. But in terms of long-term improvements, what you do the next night and what you do that day is far more important than what you did yesterday or last week.
Celia Garforth:
Totally. And I think that’s been a big shift for me as well as not spending the whole day dissecting what I did the night before and trying to diagnose why it happened. I remember at the beginning I’d literally spend the whole day being like, “Oh, maybe it’s because I didn’t go for a run this morning or I had a cup of coffee or all this stupid stuff.” I didn’t have a long enough bath or all these stupid things that you’re self-diagnosing that definitely have no impact whatsoever, and it’s just a complete waste of time worrying about… So much energy just focused on worrying and hunting for problems that aren’t there and hunting for solutions that aren’t there.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, exactly. I think that is a common trait among people with insomnia is that ongoing experimentation and monitoring. So let’s use working out for an example. We might start paying attention to what time we work out in the day and how that affects sleep or what kind of exercise we’re doing and how that affects sleep. And to be honest, exercise, isn’t going to create sleep. Exercise is good for our overall health. It makes us feel better during the day, lowers fatigue. Lots of good things associated with exercise, but exercise isn’t going to create sleep. So we can easily get distracted trying to look for all these things that might influence sleep when really sleep is pretty straightforward. In order for sleep to happen, we need to be sleepy enough for sleep, so we need to be awake for long enough. And conditions need to be right for sleep. And that really comes down to arousal. We need to have low levels of arousal.
Martin Reed:
If we have any kind of arousal around sleep, we’re worried about sleep or putting effort into sleep, striving for sleep, then our body needs to generate more sleep drive to overcome that arousal. So we need to be awake for longer, and that’s why we experience less sleep when we have a lot of worry or concern around sleep, and doing things like monitoring for the effects of what we do during the day on sleep or doing all these different kinds of experiments. They’re not going to generate sleep, but they are certainly going to generate more arousal because we’re paying far more attention to sleep. We’re putting more effort into sleep. We’re implying that we can control sleep when we cannot control asleep.
Martin Reed:
So they are a common trait among people with insomnia. And I guess what I’m really getting at is, we don’t need to do them. We can just abandon all those unhelpful sleep efforts. And like you mentioned, it can just be so liberating to realize that we don’t have to do all of these things and have all these rituals and pay all this attention to what we do during the day, or worry about how it might affect our sleep.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah. I think the best thing my husband said to me was just like, “You’re not allowed to talk about sleep anymore.” And he was just like, “I’m so bored of you going about it.” And now he just literally pulls me off on it. He’s just like, “No, that’s part of your weird sleep story that doesn’t exist and we’re not talking about that anymore.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
And I think having people around you that keep you honest is quite helpful as well. I used to ring up my friends and my sisters on and on crying on the phone and moaning on at them, and it’s just, what a waste of time and what a waste of… It’s not great for them either, and they worry about you and it completely just reinforces the problem. It’s just working it into this massive thing when it just doesn’t really need to be at all. And the best thing to do is just to avoid talking about it or thinking about it as much as possible, which is easier said than done, of course. I often fall back into thinking about it, but now I catch myself and distract myself doing something else or go and write it down and then put it away. Just whatever you can do to recognize that you’re having that thought, but then put it to one side, I think is really helpful.
Celia Garforth:
Because it’s impossible to block out anxiety and thoughts like that, and it’s impossible because it always comes. And like I said, you’re never cured. And maybe I will be in 10 years time and I’ll never think about sleep ever again. But I think it’s really unrealistic to think that after an eight week course you’re going to be completely cured and that’s it, and see you later, job done. I think it does take a certain… I’m hesitant to say effort because I know we’re not supposed to put effort into it, but I guess it takes a bit of discipline to stop yourself indulging in things that will make it worse and starting to recognize patterns before you fall into those traps.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think you made a really good point about thoughts, not trying to suppress thoughts, especially thoughts that might otherwise generate worry or anxiety because as soon as we try and suppress that kind of thinking, the brain thinks, “Oh, wow, this must be a real threat. We need to think about this some more.” And it pushes back even harder. And then you’re just constantly involved in this battle trying to suppress thinking, which never works, but it sure can be exhausting. And I think that can be a big contributor to this fatigue that we often feel when we have insomnia not only generated by less sleep, but also all the cognitive arousal, all the thinking, all the worrying, all the trying not to think about sleep, all the effort that involves can just be exhausting.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah. Really exhausting and a total waste of time. And I say this to my husband now, I’m like, “Oh God, I wasted half my maternity leave just worrying about sleep. And I’m determined not to let it take over my life in that way again.” Which is very different to saying I’m not going to have sleep trouble again.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. And I think it can be really helpful to just recognize that thoughts are thoughts. That’s all they are. They’re just thoughts. We have thousands of thoughts throughout the day. We pay very little attention to almost all of them. But when we’re worried about sleep, those ones we tend to fixate on and focus on. And it can be hard, but often just recognizing the thought, identifying it as a thought, oh, here it is. It’s that thought. I’m worrying about sleep again, and not trying to suppress it, not trying to push it away.
Martin Reed:
I think that’s often the easiest approach to take, because it’s a little bit like a playground bully. We recognize that thought, we recognize that bully is there, if we don’t react, if we don’t try and push them away, don’t try and run away, the bully soon gets bored and those thoughts drift away just like all the other thoughts that aren’t related to sleep that enter and leave our mind throughout the day. They enter and they leave because we don’t pay that much attention to them. If we can get to that point where we treat those sleep thoughts the same way, it can just make things so much easier.
Celia Garforth:
Totally. And it’s also not allowing those thoughts to influence how you act as well.
Martin Reed:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
Acknowledging that you’ve had that thought. And instead of then spending the rest of the day Googling, how do I sleep better? You acknowledge that you’ve got the thought and then go, “Cool, I’ve had thought. That’s fine. It’s there. It’s in the back of my mind maybe, but I’m not going to act on it at all.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
I think just one of those big thoughts, I’m sure you’ll recognize this one is just, oh, I had a really difficult night, so maybe I should reach for X tonight to try and help me to sleep, whether that’s a pill or a supplement or smoking or anything like that. Because I had a difficult night, maybe now I should go to bed earlier, or maybe now I should try and nap during the day because your brain wants to problem solve. None of us will be alive if our brains weren’t hardwired to problem solve. But the problem with sleep is often a lot of the solutions we come up with, they might actually give us some short term relief, going to bed early might need to a little bit more sleep that night, but it can then lead to more sleep disruption on following nights.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, totally. And the part about going to bed early was really good to break. And that’s why sleep restriction really helped is just giving a bit of consistency to my sleep patterns because I’d have a few nights of really terrible sleep and then I’d conk out and sleep for 10 hours and then the next night I’d be back to not sleeping again. And so I think just generating that consistency was what’s really important in breaking those up and down cycles for me.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I mean, that is one of the big reasons why we see these roller coaster nights of really long nights of lots and lots of sleep, and then nights of very little to no sleep. It’s often caused by an inconsistent sleep schedule and allotting too much time for sleep. So if we align a lot of time for sleep when sleep drive builds to that really intense level, we’re going to fill all that time and sleep. But then when sleep drive has been relieved, because we’ve got all of that sleep, then we’re not spending enough time awake to build that sleep drive up enough to sustain sleep the next night. And so we hit that roller coaster of long nights, short nights, and that can just be so frustrating and just lead to more sleep related worry, which in turn generates more arousal.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah. It’s that roller coaster of like, oh God, what’s this night going to be like? And then you feel great after your 10 hours and then you feel terrible again.
Martin Reed:
So we’ve covered a lot in this conversation. Just upon reflection, just to summarize, what would you say were the things that prove to be most helpful for you helping you to get to where you are now?
Celia Garforth:
I think probably the number one thing was the recognition that I shouldn’t be problem solving around this anymore and making my peace with not always striving to get eight hours, I think was probably the single biggest unlock for me. And just that whole, like I said to you, my sister saying you don’t have to do anything. Internalizing that advice and that knowledge is probably the most important when it comes to thought patterns. And then I think just practically the sleep restriction definitely was really, really helpful just in generating that consistency and building up that sleep drive.
Celia Garforth:
So I was tired each night when I went to bed because that almost just acted as a circuit breaker so that I could start getting on track again. So yeah, I’d say those two things were definitely the most helpful for me. And then there’s all the ancillary stuff around making sure you get up at the same time every day and the boot camp and not staying in bed when you’re not asleep. But I think those two things; the sleep restriction and the just recognizing that… or making my peace with not problem-solving around sleep and worrying about it all the time and that the liberation that comes with that, I think as well was the biggest thing for me.
Celia Garforth:
And then probably with hindsight now it’s also the third piece around of knowing that I can cope with difficult nights and not letting that spiral. So that’s definitely been a helpful learning experience too.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. A lot of it I think comes down to acceptance in a way, just accepting that what happens at night is what happens at night. I’m not trying to control it. And putting all those instincts to control into more productive areas like controlling what you do during the day, for example, staying active, resisting that temptation to just spend the whole day researching sleep, giving yourself that opportunity to improve the quality of your day independently of sleep. All of those things can be just so helpful in addition to all the other behavioral techniques that we’ve already discussed.
Celia Garforth:
Yeah, definitely.
Martin Reed:
All right. Celia, I really appreciate all the time that you’ve given up to come on to the podcast today and to talk about your journey and your transformation in your sleep and your mindset around sleep. But I do have one last question for you, which is, it’s always the last question for every guest, so I’m not going to break precedent here. I’m going to ask you the same question. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening and feels as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help and they just can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?
Celia Garforth:
Well, first I’d tell them to do your course because it really did help. Having something to focus on that wasn’t sleep, but still felt like you were doing something and your effort was going into somewhere positive. And then I guess I’d just give the advice of stop trying to problem solve around sleep, and the advice that my sister gave me; you don’t actually have to do anything. That’s the beauty of sleep. Do less. And I know if someone had said that to me probably at the time I would have punched him in the face. But with hindsight, I think learning to internalize that and not indulging all these thoughts and letting yourself spiral would be my biggest piece of advice. And also please don’t give up hope because honestly, I was in such a bad place. I was in the depths of despair and hopelessness, and you can drag yourself out of it. Life doesn’t have to be that hard. It doesn’t have to be like that.
Celia Garforth:
There’s definitely a way to make significant improvements and have ongoing better relationship with sleep. So yeah, I guess that would be my advice.
Martin Reed:
Great. Well, I think that’s an excellent note to end on. So thanks again for your time and for sharing your experience. I think is going to be really helpful for a lot of people. So thank you, Celia.
Celia Garforth:
Good. Thank you. It’s been great talking to you.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com.
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1 hr 9 min
May 07, 2021How Chad improved his sleep by undoing all the changes he had made in response to his insomnia (#28)
Listen to the podcast episode (audio only)
Chad experienced some sleepless nights during a stressful period at work but his sleep started to get back on track — until one completely sleepless night created an avalanche of anxiety and insomnia.
This led Chad to develop an obsession with sleep. He would go to bed earlier to try to catch up on sleep, try to take naps, and he withdrew from activities that added meaning and enrichment to his life in an attempt to protect his sleep.
Fortunately, Chad discovered that it was his obsession with sleep and the changes he had made in response to difficult nights that were giving insomnia the oxygen it needed to survive.
So, he started to undo all those changes. He started to spend less time in bed and a sense of sleepiness returned. He started to live his life without allowing insomnia to control his decisions, plans, or activities — and this improved the quality of his days and helped him realize just how capable he can be, even after nights of little or no sleep.
By abandoning all efforts to create or control sleep and by living his life according to his values, regardless of how he slept, Chad was able to shift attention away from sleep, create better conditions for sleep to happen, and put his insomnia behind him.
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hi, Chad. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your day to come onto the podcast.
Chad Mullin:
Hey, Martin. Thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure to be with you today.
Martin Reed:
It’s great to have you on and I’m really looking forward to our conversation and I always to get started right at the beginning, so let’s start there for you. Can you tell us when your sleep problems first began and what you think caused those initial issues with sleep?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah, sure. I would say that my sleep issues began about 16 months ago, I guess. It was September of 2019, and things at work had gotten pretty stressful, there was some toxic environment issues going on, which I’m sure is pretty common for folks that deal with insomnia, and I had to have a very difficult conversation with somebody at work. And before that conversation, I was pretty anxious. I knew I was going to have, but a couple of days in advance. And so the night of that, before that conversation, I didn’t sleep very well at all, maybe a couple of hours. Now this was a couple of months before I actually felt I had insomnia. And so I had the conversation, the sleep issues kind of resolved, I noticed sort of the next couple of months, sort of some lingering issues.
Chad Mullin:
I’d have a harder time falling asleep, I’d wake up a little bit earlier. But then there was this one night, September of 2019, where I just did not sleep at all, and that just created an avalanche of anxiety and sleepless nights that I had never dealt with before. I mean, prior to that, I had been a great sleeper. I think I told you in my email that my wife and I, we have four boys and she would always complain that I never would wake up when the kids would cry, and she was always getting up, she was always exhausted and I was well rested. And so I had never really dealt with sleep issues before that event happened in 2019, so that was the start of it.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. You mentioned that trigger earlier on in your experience, that issue at work that led to some sleep disruption, for that more recent example, was there any obvious trigger that time or was it just a case of, you just went to bed and for some reason just found it impossible to sleep?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah, I can’t pinpoint an obvious reason. Of course, things at work hadn’t really gotten any better and there was still sort of a toxic environment. And so I really think that it probably went back to that one particular meeting I had, and it didn’t really click in my head, it didn’t, I guess it wasn’t such a negative thing at the time. I didn’t think not being able to sleep well that night was an issue, or the lingering issues that I had a couple of months leading up to that one night. But when I realized that I couldn’t get to sleep and I was trying to get to sleep and all of this effort that you speak of at times, that was very alarming to me.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So what happened after that night? I’m guessing the sleep disruption to some extent stuck around because otherwise we wouldn’t be talking right now, but was it just the case that from that moment on just sleep just seemed to be really difficult most nights, every single night? What happened next?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah, I mean, it became basically the sole issue in my life. I became obsessed with sleep, it was a situation where the following night I was so tired that I finally fell asleep and I slept for eight hours straight, but then the next night after that I couldn’t get back to sleep. And then, I was trying to compensate by going to bed early. So I would go to bed earlier and it would still take me three or four hours to try to get to sleep and, yeah, so it just perpetuated, I just sort of perpetuate. I mean, you talk about these predisposed ideas and then the perpetuating things that we do that prolong insomnia in our lives and I was doing all of them, I was going to bed earlier. I had gone to see the doctor, because I thought something was wrong with me and this was two or three weeks into it. I thought maybe, I don’t know, I thought maybe I had Lyme disease or any number of things, but I just kept doing things to perpetuate the issue.
Martin Reed:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), yeah. I think that, that is the key, isn’t it? On reflection, it can seem even clear and obvious that all of these things we were doing in a bid to improve our sleep were probably perpetuating that sleep disruption, but at the time it’s completely understandable why we would do them, right, because we have a problem with sleep, so we want to solve that problem, so we’re naturally going to want to do things going to bed earlier to give ourselves more opportunity for sleep, maybe sleep in later, maybe nap during the day, maybe be less active during the day.
Martin Reed:
We do all these things to try and create better conditions for sleep, to try and make sleep happen, but unfortunately, sleep is one of these things that doesn’t respond well to effort. So all these efforts that we put into sleep actually backfire and feed that sleep disruption and keep the insomnia alive. And so I think it’s really good that you touched upon that because anyone else listening to this, if they can identify some of those similar behaviors, then there’s that real opportunity there to tackle some of these behaviors to give sleep a much better chance of happening and so kind of eliminate perpetuating behaviors.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. So true. Yeah. And like I said, I was a classic case of, I didn’t realize what I was doing until I found your podcast and immediately it clicked, I look back on this is six months after, so that I found you and I think, “Oh man, I just prolong this issue by doing all those things, where had I known I wouldn’t have, but what I did because I didn’t know.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. Well, we don’t know what we don’t know. Right. That’s the one of the things in life, one of the reasons why I’m really keen on just keeping these podcast episodes going is because not only does it make these stories when people like yourself come on and share stories and makes them relatable, but it just gets the knowledge out there that you’re doing, it’s understandable why you might be implementing all these behaviors, but it might be worth exploring whether they are truly proving to be helpful or not and if not, then maybe there’s a different way of doing things as we will get onto talking about, as we keep talking hopefully.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. Great. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
You mentioned that you went to the doctor, ruled out any health issues behind your sleep, what other things had you tried in a bit to improve your sleep? Because I know that many people listening to this podcast will have tried many different things, so I’m going to guess that you’re probably the same, but let’s throw it out there. What kind of things had you tried in a bid to improve yourself?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah, I mean, it’s funny, you don’t think about these things until they happen to you, but then when you start thinking about them and you talk to people about them, it’s amazing how many people are experts until you try some sleepy time tea or melatonin, magnesium supplements. I did try napping during the day. I have a list here, let’s see. Oh, no screens before bed. I went to the chiropractor. Somebody told me that, “Maybe a chiropractor could assist you in adjusting you and it might trigger something to help you out.” I did not, that when I went to see the doctor, they did suggest prescription medication and I avoided it at all costs. I didn’t want to go down that road and I figured I was only two weeks into this, I’m going to figure this out.
Chad Mullin:
So I did not go down that road and fortunately never trailed off there. I kind of sort of averse to taking medication anyway, so I stay away from it. But interestingly, they did suggest CBT-I and I thought, “Therapy? That how? That doesn’t make any sense to me, why talking to somebody.” And little did I know what CBT-I actually was, so I didn’t even investigate until, I said, I found your podcast. So…
Martin Reed:
Yeah. First of all, I think it’s great that your doctor even mentioned CBT-I, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. That’s really encouraging because very often when I talk to clients, they tell me that all they were offered was either sleep hygiene information, which unfortunately we actually know that, that’s not helpful for people with chronic insomnia as the only kind of treatment option, is the only intervention or it’s sleeping pills. And again, sleeping pills, a long-term solution for chronic insomnia. So first of all, I think it’s really encouraging that you were told about CBT-I, so it sounds was it that, that actually triggered your research into maybe there is something to this, maybe it is thoughts and behaviors related could be feeding into the insomnia?
Chad Mullin:
I would not say that I delved into that until probably a couple months after. I heard somebody else on your podcast talk about a book that they had. I got this book prior to hearing this podcast, but a book… what was it called? It was by Guy Meadows and it was the ACT Approach, I guess, so they try. And so I read the book, I tried that approach and it just didn’t work for me, but it did talk a lot about your thoughts around insomnia and how your thoughts really perpetuate the issue.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. And I think another thing you touched upon was that the mention of that T word therapy, because it can be quite, “Why? You think I need therapy for this really?” But I think it’s somewhat of a misnomer because it’s not really therapy in the traditional sense it’s more just to do with changing some behaviors around sleep and just exploring the thought processes behind sleep, because a lot of the time we can have unhelpful thoughts about sleep, for example, “If I don’t sleep tonight, then tomorrow will be ruined.” And that can just heap even more pressure on you to sleep and lead to more worry, and that can fuel the insomnia.
Martin Reed:
So taking a step back and just evaluating, for example, the accuracy of that thought, have there been any times when you’ve had a difficult night, maybe still got through the day, maybe had some positive moments or just some okay moments and just gradually see if it’s possible to change the way we think about sleep to put less pressure on ourselves to sleep. And there’s also that sleep education component as well, just recognizing that we probably don’t need say eight hours of sleep every single night to live happy, healthy lives, we all have our own sleep requirements, sometimes some of us get less, some of us get more, that can just be so helpful too.
Martin Reed:
So you mentioned that you found my podcast, you found the website, what was it about the stories you heard on the podcast or the information that you learned from my website that made you think this could be a different approach or an approach that could be worth pursuing, could be helpful?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. I mean, I think that when you hear people’s testimony and hear them talk about exactly how you’re feeling and what you’re thinking about a particular issue, it becomes relatable and you find hope, because insomnia makes you feel very alone. I’ll tell you, it caused me to withdraw from things that I had been involved in at church, or I stopped working out because I was afraid that maybe that was perpetuating it. I had lost some weight, I stopped eating as much as I typically do, and my relationships all around suffered, my relationship with my wife suffered because she didn’t understand what I was dealing with. And so the podcast really brought some hope into my life, that I wasn’t an oddity, or that I wasn’t experiencing something that other people had never experienced before.
Chad Mullin:
And just to hear the hope and the success that your folks on your podcast, your clients had had was just… I mean, I can’t use another word other than encouraging or hopeful. It just kind of put a shot of hope back into my life that there was a way of remedying this situation and kind of getting out of this. I think in my email to you, I said prison, because that’s what it felt I was just in chained by insomnia.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think it can just be so reassuring to recognize that what you are going through isn’t unique, because that suggests that there is a way to move past it, to move beyond it. So that’s another benefit of these podcast episodes, I think, and it’s one reason why I’m so grateful that guests yourself come on to discuss their experiences. When you can relate what you’re going through with what someone else has gone through, first of all, you got to have reassurance you’re not alone. And then when you get to that point where you hear people saying all the things that they did to improve their sleep…
Martin Reed:
Well, if you can recognize that your insomnia is probably similar to the story that you’re hearing, then there’s no reason to believe that you can’t implement the same kind of changes and get the results, because after all your insomnia isn’t unique, it’s not this mystery, it is actually quite common, and insomnia in itself, doesn’t really vary from person-to-person all the characterstics there are almost identical. And I say that as someone who talks to people with insomnia every day, it’s very rare that I hear something that actually takes me by surprise.
Chad Mullin:
Sure. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
So you listened to some podcast episodes, but obviously listening to something often isn’t isn’t enough, we have to then take action. So what was your plan? How did you move forward? So you found this information, you found these stories. What did you do next?
Chad Mullin:
Well, honestly, before I found the podcast, I found your website, and so I saw that you were offering a 14 day free course and so I signed up for that. And during that 14 weeks is when I started listening to your podcast as well, 14 days rather. And so I think the term therapy… So I’m from the Northeast. I’m from Maine and there’s this cultural acceptance that we’re all independent and we don’t need anybody to kind of get through things. Right. And so the idea of therapy for me was… and just, this is sort of grown into you as a child like, “You don’t need therapy, you just tough it out and do it. Right?
Martin Reed:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Chad Mullin:
So the idea of therapy, I was kind of resistant to… But so I started your 14 day course and honestly I didn’t take it. I didn’t take it as serious as I should have. I think I kind of was lax on, because you talk about that one, I think it’s day three, you talked about restricting your bedtime. And I did restrict it, but certainly not to the extent that I should have. And so I suffered a bit longer than I probably would have, or should have if I had actually reached out to you and spoken with you and connected with you and done it right.
Chad Mullin:
But all that to say is, I found your website, I started listening to the podcast, sort of started implementing the sleep, bed restriction and so went along with that. And in a couple of months I actually started sleeping a little bit better, but then the pandemic hit and it kind of threw my entire world into this sort of mix again. And I wasn’t sure how to handle that and so my sleep suffered once again. And so then, I was like, “You know what…”. So for about a month, I wasn’t sleeping well at all. I was sleeping maybe four, five hours a night. It would take me a couple hours to get to sleep.
Chad Mullin:
I’d wake up early and not be able to get back to sleep. And I said, fine, I’m just going to do it. I’m going to buckle down and do what you suggest in the podcast and in your course, and I did. And so I restricted my bedtime. I got up when I couldn’t sleep and I would say that I didn’t see a strong effect for maybe eight weeks, it took a while. And so, as you might imagine, I was getting a little discouraged, but I had listened to several of the people on your podcast that had similar experiences with it and that kept encouraging me to continue.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think there’s so much good stuff in there. And I think just the fact that you did, just even at first, if you feel on reflection that you could have done a little bit better, cutting down more time allotted for sleep, just the fact that you cut some time off, it can be so helpful. If, for example, you’re spending eight hours in bed at night and averaging say four to five hours of sleep. You’re kind of setting yourself up for three hours or more of nighttime wakefulness, which is pretty unpleasant. So even if you don’t feel ready to go down to say from eight hours to six hours, maybe you feel ready to go from eight hours to seven hours, or maybe just to seven and a half hours, it’s still a step in the right direction. And as you said, “Maybe it could mean that progress takes a little bit longer, but it’s still progress.”
Martin Reed:
It’s still better than just thinking, “This is something I can’t do, and I don’t want to modify it. If I’m going to do it, I’m going to do it right, but then you don’t end up doing it because you want to do everything perfectly. Just taking those first steps can just be so helpful. And it really is so easy to become to try and become a perfectionist with the techniques. But I think as long as you’re doing your best and you’re making some positive changes, then you will make progress and your sleep will respond positively to what you’re doing.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. And I noticed that those characteristics in myself whenever I’m doing anything, I want to make sure I’m doing it properly, or I’m not going to do it at all. And so I think what you said is exactly true. Even if you do just a little bit, it will be helpful. And it was to me, but I also recognize that it could have been better if I had done better. But…
Martin Reed:
I think sometimes it can be helpful. It sounds like your experience was as you made some smaller changes, figured that maybe they’re helping a little bit, then you experienced this kind of second round of sleep disruption caused by the pandemic, then you decided, “Okay. Now I’m going to go all in.” Maybe you wouldn’t have felt inclined to go all in if you hadn’t have already experimented by just making smaller changes at first, because I think you’ve made some smaller changes, maybe got some results, you can have a little bit more confidence to them fully commit and go all in.
Chad Mullin:
No, I think that’s totally true. Yeah, absolutely.
Martin Reed:
So you mentioned getting out of bed when sleep wasn’t happening, well, we call this technique part of stimulus control, which is just designed to help make a stronger association between the bed and sleep and try and train your brain to see the bed as a nice place to be rather than unpleasant place to be. So it can be quite difficult to do this technique because it’s a longer term technique, it’s not really intended to help you fall asleep the night that you get out of bed, it’s more about relearning that the bed is a good place to be, the bed is a place for sleep and pleasant wakefulness.
Martin Reed:
So it can be hard to be getting in and out of bed at a time when you feel that you’re already struggling to get enough sleep. How did you manage to stay consistent with that for long enough for you to notice that it was proven to be helpful?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn’t say that this technique was the biggest catalyst, but I definitely used it. I don’t know, I guess I just got frustrated enough where I said, “I can’t lay here anymore,” so I’d get out of bed and I’d read a book or even sometimes I would just sit there on the couch or in a chair until I felt sleepy enough. And typically it was reading a book and I noticed my eyes would start drooping once again. I will admit that sometimes when I use this technique, it seemed to actually wake me up more and so I questioned whether or not I should be using it, but I did stick to it.
Chad Mullin:
Ad I would say as I started getting better, I didn’t have to use this quite as much. And also just the idea of getting out of bed and just going to the bathroom and then coming back to bed was sometimes helpful for me.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think sometimes it can work almost a mental reset, you just get change of scenery. But I think it also could be helpful to just reframe the goal, because it’s so easy to think that the goal is to just get you out of bed if sleep isn’t happening. Whereas really the goal is to just make nighttime wakefulness a little bit more pleasant if being awake in bed doesn’t feel good. So really, it’s only ever going to make the night a little bit better rather than worse. So if you’re laying in bed, feels good to be in bed, cozy and relaxed, the sheets feel good, I don’t think there’s any need to jump out of bed because conditions are right for sleep to happen.
Martin Reed:
But if being in bed doesn’t feel good, then you probably know from experience, sleep isn’t going to be happening anytime soon, so why not get out of bed, do something that’s going to make that wakefulness a little bit more pleasant. And it comes with the added benefit of being a little bit of a mental reset, gives your mind something else to focus on other than sleep, removes any effort you might be putting into sleep, and it helps prevent you from just reinforcing this negative association that the bed is not a nice place to be.
Martin Reed:
So I think it can be a helpful technique, some people find it to be one of the most helpful techniques, other people less so and I think that’s based on how much of this conditioned arousal is already present. So if you already have that really strong association between the bed and unpleasant wakefulness, like you feel really sleepy at night, but then you get into bed and boom that sleepiness has gone, often a symptom of conditioned arousal, and that’s when getting out of bed can be helpful. So you mentioned that you did feel that it was helpful, but it probably wasn’t the number one gold medal technique for you. What do you think was? What’s the most helpful thing?
Chad Mullin:
Oh, definitely the restricted bedtime, I would say, just talking more about the stimulus control. When I had insomnia, I would walk into my bedroom and immediately feel this anxiety that I had never felt before or experienced before. And so you’re right, those two techniques, I think the restricted bedtime and then stimulus control of getting out of bed when I couldn’t sleep were probably the two primary, but the most helpful was the restricted bedtime.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think it is such a powerful technique, just allotting, a more appropriate amount of time for sleep, because it’s one of the perpetuating behaviors that we see in insomnia is spending too much time in bed, allotting too much time for sleep. So for example, we want to get, let’s say eight hours of sleep, so we spent eight hours in bed, but the problem is if we’re only getting four to five hours, that’s just going to set us up for a lot of wakefulness, which then feeds into that worry and that anxiety.
Martin Reed:
So the problem with sleep restriction it’s a bit of a misnomer, because it implies that we’re restricting sleep, but we’re actually restricting wakefulness because we’re just making sure there’s less time available for nighttime wakefulness whilst building that sleep drive during the day, the longer that we’re awake for, the more that sleep pressure, that drive, that urge to sleep builds. And eventually sleep drive becomes so intense that we’re always going to sleep no matter how anxious we are, no matter how worried we are.
Martin Reed:
So it can be really helpful because it builds that sleepiness and some clients that I talk to with insomnia, feel that they’ve lost that ability to even feel sleepiness anymore. So that in itself can be reassuring, when you feel that sleepiness come back and just then spending, having less opportunity for nighttime wakefulness, can they help address the thoughts, the thinking side of it, there’s less time for rumination, there’s less worry, there’s less unpleasant nighttime wakefulness.
Martin Reed:
And it can just feed into more of a positive cycle where you start to find that you sleep a little bit better, less time awake, so you worry a little bit less. And then because you’re worrying a little bit less, maybe then sleep becomes a little bit easier. And instead of that negative cycle, you kind of turn it on its head and it becomes a little bit more of a positive cycle.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. So true. I know that I experienced that very thing myself.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. You mentioned that it took seven or eight weeks or so before you noticed some real improvements that you could attribute to the changes you have made, how did those improvements become apparent? How did they manifest themselves? Did you just start finding that you are worrying less about sleep or falling asleep faster? How did you on reflection recognize that change was happening in a good way?
Chad Mullin:
Well, I think you even touched upon it in your previous discussion there and just the idea of feeling sleepy again, it’s, I started to feel sleepy. I would monitor how I felt throughout the day and even if I yawned, the idea of yawning even was a success to me, because I think that my hyper arousal was so high that I couldn’t feel sleepy anymore. And so when I would yawn during the day, I would consider it a success. And so, yeah, I would tend to start getting more sleepy and yes, I would start flying to sleep quicker and I would stay asleep longer during that restricted window.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think the lots of people will identify with that. I think another thing that I see in people in a lot of people that have insomnia is this confusion between fatigue and sleepiness, because I think one of the biggest complaints associated with insomnia is fatigue, just this feeling of being worn out, feeling groggy, brain fog. And it’s really easy to mistake that for sleepiness and therefore try and nap during the day when you feel that really strong grogginess, that really strong fatigue or go to bed earlier.
Martin Reed:
And then when sleep doesn’t happen, you become even more worried because you think to yourself, “But I’m really sleepy. I need to get this sleep, but sleep isn’t happening. But fatigue doesn’t lead to sleep, only sleepiness leads to sleep. So that’s another bonus of the sleep window, allotting an appropriate amount of time for sleep is because it can really build up that sleepiness especially in the evening before going to bed. And you recognize that it is a different sensation and it can be just be so beneficial to be able to relearn what sleepiness feels as opposed to this ongoing sense of fatigue.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah, it’s so true. Fatigue and sleepiness are completely different. And you can totally tell the difference, particularly when maybe you’re watching something and your eyes start drooping, or you’re trying to stay awake for that sleep window, your bedtime isn’t until 11:00 or 11:30, and it’s almost like your mission to stay awake. You can tell that you’re getting sleepy as that window is coming and you’re just trying to keep yourself awake and not fall asleep in front of the television or reading a book or whatever it may be.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. And I think it’s quite ironic, isn’t it? Because when we have insomnia, our struggle is going to sleep and then usually not too long after we implement a sleep window, our struggle is staying awake, at least for the start of the sleep window and it really just kind of turns everything on its head, where maybe we used to kind of dread going to bed because we would just know it will take forever to fall asleep, so we’re sitting here, we’re really struggling to stay awake and we want to go to bed, we’re really, really excited and enthusiastic and really want this sleep window to start so we can go to bed. And it really is that transformational mindset that can be so helpful.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. So true. Yeah.
Martin Reed:
Just talking about this daytime fatigue, just because you mentioned earlier that some of these things that you’d change was, for example, you would just stop working out when you had difficult nights or going through the insomnia, and that’s quite common too, because we feel a lot more fatigued, so our natural urge is to just conserve energy. And another thing is we can sometimes feel that because we didn’t get a good night sleep, we might be less capable, we might not actually even be able to work out and so we don’t work out and we kind of make that belief true. How did you move beyond that and start working out again, regardless of how you slept?
Chad Mullin:
Again, I think your podcast and the 14 day course helped with that, it was just the motivation to kind of live life normally and not let insomnia control life, because I had, like I had said, I had withdrawn from things, our social life kind of took a dive even prior to the pandemic, even prior to being forced to sort of stay inside, I elected to do that very thing. And so, yeah, it was just a challenge and your podcast definitely helps. And your clients saying that, that’s what they had done, that they had acted as if insomnia was not part of their life and they just lived life as normal.
Chad Mullin:
And obviously it, wasn’t the easiest thing to do for sure, it’s still in the back of your mind, but you sort of just make a decision that this isn’t going to control me and I’m not going to allow it to, and almost sort of stubbornly live life as if you weren’t dealing with sleep issues. And yeah, it’s harder, but even my mother-in-law deals with fibromyalgia and chronic pain, and so everybody has their thing and you just got to keep living life and not let these things control you.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So it sounds it was just a case of you just decided, no matter what, I’m just going to try and go about my day as though insomnia wasn’t around as though I’d had the best night’s sleep, no matter what.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. I mean, and that’s easier said than done of course.
Martin Reed:
Oh yeah.
Chad Mullin:
And for sure, I have a physical job. I’m a construction manager for an organization and so I was almost required to be physical during the day. I had to do those things for my livelihood, so at some points I didn’t even have a choice. And the other things that I did have a choice on, I just had to make that decision to do it, because I knew that, that was what was best for me.
Martin Reed:
Did you ever find that sometimes you are even a little bit surprised at how capable you could be, even after the worst night of sleep. Obviously, the day is never probably going to be as good as it would have been with a great night of sleep, but were you ever kind of taken by surprise a little bit, whether it was through the physical activity at your job or from working out, or just your focus during the day of what you could actually do even after difficult nights?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. I mean, I have vivid memories of a couple of nights in particular, where I basically spent the night thinking about the tasks that was ahead of me the next day. And I probably did that task six times in my head before I actually had to do it the next day. And I might’ve slept two hours those nights and I would go to work and yeah, it was a little more difficult because I was fatigued, but I still got the job done, just as I would have had I slept well. It wasn’t as pleasurable, but it’s still get done. So…
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think people can often surprise themselves with how capable they can be even after long-term, even with long-term sleep disruption, long-term insomnia. I had a client recently who had gone down this normal route of just withdrawing from daytime activities because of insomnia in a bit to conserve energy and for fear of what might happen if you go about your day as normal, because of poor sleep. And we were talking for a while about, I wonder if there’s any opportunity to just try and reintroduce some kind of daytime activity. And I think she started off by just doing a 10 minute workout, she was someone that really loved doing workouts.
Martin Reed:
I’m not someone who’s going to say, “Everyone needs to work out,” some of us, it’s not for us. But she was someone who it was really important to her to work out, it’s something she always enjoyed doing, but she’d completely stopped doing that because of insomnia. So they just kind of guaranteed that sleep had a negative role in her life, and it reduced the overall quality of her day and probably increased fatigue. So anyway, she decided one day to just do 10 minutes. She said, “Okay. I’ll just do 10 minutes tomorrow morning.” And she did and she emailed me and she was like, “Wow, I did it. I just feel so much better.” Just those 10 minutes, she just felt so much better from it.
Martin Reed:
And I’m not saying that 10 minute workout is going to cure insomnia, but it just changed her whole mindset around sleep, just being able to test that belief about what she might be able to do even after difficult nights and how maybe she still has some control over the quality of her day, regardless of how she sleeps. It can really be so powerful, just testing those beliefs and just trying to maintain that activity, because we do have a lot of control over the quality of our day, and yes, sleep does influence the quality of our day no doubt about it, but probably not 100% of what goes on during the day is caused by how we sleep.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. I can totally relate to your client there. I try to live a healthy, well balanced life, eat well, workout daily or at least five times a week and that had all gone away. Yeah, I wouldn’t say that eating well, but certainly the working out. And like you said, “The idea of just doing it certainly made you feel better, even though it was harder to do, the fact that you got it done was sort of a mental boost.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So we’ve talked about changing our daytime behaviors and trying to maintain our days as much as possible, regardless of how we sleep. We’ve talked about the sleep window a lot in a more appropriate amount of time for sleep, we’ve talked about getting out of bed or being in bed doesn’t good. Is there anything else that you can think of that you found helpful in improving your sleep over the longer term?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. I remember most of these techniques that I used were things that I heard your clients use on the podcast. And one of them in particular was somebody that you were speaking with, I think he was from Australia. I remember his accent and he spoke about not looking at the clock and I’ve always had the clock right next to my bed, right next to my head, so I opened my eyes and the clock is there. And what I found was that when I would wake up in the middle of the night and open my eyes and the clock was there and it read three o’clock or it read 4:00 AM or whatnot, immediately anxiety would build up.
Chad Mullin:
And obviously, I wasn’t going back to sleep, so that created a tough start for the day. But when I heard the podcast, I was reluctant to utilize that resource because it helps me to sort of gauge when I need to get up and sort of the start of the day. But honestly, because I have been getting up at quarter past five for the past, whatever 15 years for work my, I guess my body clock is waking me up at that time anyway. And so I recognized that I really didn’t need the clock and I moved it to a different location.
Chad Mullin:
At first, I started by turning it around and I would wake up in the middle of the night and then I’d just be curious, what time is it? What time is it? So then I just move it into a spot where I couldn’t access it and I couldn’t look at it. And I would say that that started helping particularly for when I would wake in the middle of the night and when I couldn’t see it or have access to it, then I didn’t consider it as much and slowly it started working.
Chad Mullin:
Another thing that I would point to is the idea that we don’t need eight hours of sleep necessarily and as you say, “You can still function on much less sleep.” And I definitely, I heard people on your podcast talking about getting six or seven hours of sleep and feeling fine and I never considered it before. Of course, I had done a lot of research about sleep prior to finding your podcasts and one of the things that I found was a study done that said that they had done a study on sleep for longevity of life and they found that people that live that sleep about seven hours a night actually live longer than those that sleep eight hours a night. And so things that were encouraging to me, even though I wasn’t sleeping seven hours at the time, I was sleeping maybe five.
Chad Mullin:
But then hearing from folks on your podcast that they were sleeping six or seven hours a night, and they were leading happy, healthy, active lives, and that was encouraging to me as well. And so I wasn’t striving anymore for the eight hours a night, thinking that, that was what was required, because that’s what you hear in popular media. But I find now that I certainly don’t need eight hours of sleep.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think those two, they’re two great additions to what we were talking about, not checking the clock, being the first can be so helpful. I think that the best outcome that can be achieved from checking the clock is probably neutral, no outcome whatsoever, but more than nine times out of 10, I think it probably just increases arousal and makes sleep more difficult. If nothing else, even if you don’t recognize that checking the clock is something that generates anxiety, if nothing else, when you check the clock, your brain has to interpret the time, figure out what that means, how much time is left. See no matter what, you’re always going to be ratcheting up arousal a little bit at a time when we want arousal to be low.
Martin Reed:
So I think it can also take some adjustment, I think you just commented on, when you take that clock away, at first, you’ll probably wake up during the night and your brain will be, “What time is it? We need to know what time it is.” And if you’ve just turned it away, there might be that temptation to look back, does take a little bit of time I think to get used to not having that clock there, because you look at, I would say more than nine out of 10 bedrooms, the alarm clock’s right there right next to your head. Most of us have just become so conditioned to having the time right next to our faces, for suddenly it to be removed does take some adjustment, but I think it can be really helpful.
Martin Reed:
And at the end of the day, a clock doesn’t know when we’re sleepy, we have no reason to know the time during the night. If we need an alarm, we can maybe move the clock to the other side of the room and turn it away and that way we still benefit from the alarm, but it’s a lot harder for us to give into that temptation to check the time. The other point that you mentioned, just recognizing that we probably don’t need eight hours of sleep each night. I think very few people actually get eight hours of sleep, even great sleepers. I don’t think there’s very many that get eight hours.
Martin Reed:
We all have an individual sleep requirement and striving to get more sleep, that very act of actually trying to make sleep happen, it’s one of those things that activates our worst enemy arousal. As soon as we put effort into sleep, we activate the arousal system and that very act of striving can make sleep more difficult, so I think that they were two great create additional tips that you shared there, and I’m glad that you found them helpful too.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. Thanks.
Martin Reed:
So we kind of talked about all these things that you’ve done to get you to improve your sleep, so what’s your sleep nowadays? Well, how would you describe an average night?
Chad Mullin:
Yeah, I mean, I’m sleeping even quite well now. I go to bed around 10:00 every night and on the weekends it might be 10:30, my wife and I might stay up and watch a movie, but I go to bed around 10:00 and then I’m up between 5:00 and 5:30 every morning. And honestly, I typically do wake up in the middle of the night, I get about a five or six hour solid chunk of sleep and I’ll wake up anywhere between 3:30 and 4:30, and I will lay there for a minute and, or get up and use the bathroom and then go back to bed and go back to sleep for another hour, hour and a half, but I won’t be awake for long typically. And yeah, it’s great. I mean, I feel well rested I’m much happier than I was six months ago or whatever, or a year ago at this point and life feels normal again. And I think like I said, “I feel like I’ve been freed from prison,” honestly. So…
Martin Reed:
Yeah. That’s great. I think you made an important point too, that you still wake up during the night, because waking during the night is a normal part of sleep. No one kind of falls right to sleep as soon as their head hits the pillow, it’s natural that it takes time to fall asleep, and we all wake up multiple times during the night. Very short awakenings typically, so we often don’t remember them, and especially if we don’t have insomnia, we pay no attention to them, so we fall right back to sleep really quickly.
Martin Reed:
The difference is if we have a lot of worry or anxiety about sleep, which is common in people with chronic insomnia or we’re monitoring for sleep, when those normal awakenings happen, then we worry about them, we pay a lot of attention to them, pull off focus on them, worry about them and it’s probably that reaction that then makes it more difficult for back to sleep. So I think it’s really great that you mentioned, “Yeah, I still wake up a couple of times a night,” but the difference now is, so much easier to fall back to sleep just because your mindset around those awakenings and around sleep in general has changed.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. And I would say that prior to that dreaded night that I had in September, 2019, I didn’t think about it at the time or before, but I remember waking up and looking at the clock and I remember this time of 4:08, it seemed I’d wake up three or four nights a week and see that time 4:08 and I would think nothing of it. I wouldn’t even mention it when I woke up in the morning or get out of bed and my wife would ask me how I’d slept. I’d say, “Fine.” Great. I wouldn’t even mention that I had woken up at 4:08, but once insomnia hit, it was like, “I woke up four times last night.” And it was, every wakening was just so much more meaningful or I suppose dreaded, but not now, not now, now it’s good.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. That’s good. And have you ever had any repeats of those really difficult nights and where you find that you just get really little sleep or maybe no sleep at all? Or do you generally find that you’re not even experiencing in those kinds of nights anymore?
Chad Mullin:
I’m not experiencing the no sleep at all nights at all. I would say maybe once a month I’ll have a night or once every few weeks I’ll have a night where I have a difficult time getting to sleep maybe, or I have a difficult time getting back to sleep at four o’clock in the morning. Those nights are typically when I know that I have something coming up, so it’s no different than it was prior to insomnia, I experienced those nights before as well, or if I’ve done something particularly active or arousing prior to bed, I may have a difficult time falling off to sleep. And when I say a difficult time now, it’s probably an hour, an hour and a half to get to sleep.
Chad Mullin:
But again, those are few and far between, it might be once a month at this point. But the takeaway to that is I know and this is the line you use at the end of your podcast is like, “You can sleep,” and I know that the next night, or even the night after that, I’m going to sleep, it’s going to happen, I can’t control the fact that I’m not going to, so I take encouragement from that.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I think it is a really important point to make that nobody has a great night of sleep every single night, it’s impossible, there’s always going to be some temporary sleep disruption every now and then. Often it comes from a really obvious cause, let’s say for example, you’ve got a big meeting the next day, or even if you were just going to go on vacation the next day, then there’s some sleep disruption, but the difference is how we react to it, when we pay less attention to it, when we’re able to recognize those obvious external causes.
Martin Reed:
But even sometimes there might not be, we might just have a difficult night for no obvious reason, but I think when we’ve got insomnia behind us, the difference is we don’t kind of really dwell on the difficult night, we just continue on as normal. And because we continue on as normal, we’re not engaging in those thoughts and those behaviors that can perpetuate that sleep disruption and make it harder for sleep to get back on track. And so when we remove ourselves as probably the biggest potential obstacle to sleep, we allow sleep to do what it wants to do, and it gets back on track all by itself.
Chad Mullin:
Yeah. So true. Yep.
Martin Reed:
So I really appreciate all the time that you’ve given up to come on and talk us through your insomnia journey. There is always this one question that I like to ask people at the end of every episode, so I’d like to ask the question to you as well, and it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and feels as though they’ve tried everything that they’re beyond help and that they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?
Chad Mullin:
I would say you are not alone. And I think as humans, we need to know that, that’s one of our deepest desires is to be known, and that we’re not alone, and that there is hope. And I would say to seek out the insomnia coach, his website, or the podcast and certainly connect with him and don’t be stubborn me, and try to do it alone, because you’ll have much more success if you talk with Martin and help him or have him help you work through it. And then lastly, one of the things I tell folks that work with me or for me is that life is simple, but it’s not easy, but it’s easier if you keep it simple, and so I think the same is true for this program, it is simple, but it is not easy, but do it anyway.
Martin Reed:
I love it. I think that’s a great note to end on, so thank you again so much for taking the time to come onto the podcast Chad, it’s really appreciated.
Chad Mullin:
Absolutely Martin. It was great to talk to you.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
Mentioned in this episode:
The Sleep Book by Dr. Guy Meadows
Podcast episode that covers clock watching: How sleep restriction helped Dave fall asleep faster, spend less time awake during the night, and get more sleep (#15)
I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com.
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58 min
March 30, 2021How Pat got rid of her insomnia by embracing a philosophy of “fake it until you make it” and accepting anxious thoughts (#27)
Like everyone else, Pat experienced some difficult nights every now and then — but her sleep would always get back on track. However last summer, her neighbors starting throwing loud parties and this made sleep increasingly difficult.
Before long, Pat found herself starting to fear falling asleep because she knew she would end up being woken by her neighbors. She soon started to pay a lot of attention to sleep and thought that something was terribly wrong with her. She was canceling plans and would rearrange her life around sleep.
Since none of these things led to better sleep, Pat adopted a radically different strategy — she decided to approach each day pretending that she’d had a good night of sleep. She went about her days as normal and pursued enjoyable and enriching daytime activities, independently of how she slept. She also stopped talking about insomnia.
Pat shifted her attention away from sleep and refused to allow sleep to control her life. She also stopped all attempts to control anxious thoughts and instead, chose to acknowledge and accept them. The final piece of the puzzle came when Pat was able to abandon all attempts to control her progress and was able to accept that sleep is something that cannot be controlled.
As Pat discovered, if we can place less importance on sleep and refuse to allow sleep to control our lives, sleep often becomes a whole lot easier!
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hi, Pat, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast today.
Pat Boldys:
Very pleased to be here!
Martin Reed:
It’s great to have you on. I’m really excited to talk about your sleep issues, what you did to try and tackle them, and just to talk about where you’re at today. So before we get to start to going through that journey, let’s start at the beginning. Can you tell us when your sleep problems first began and if you have any idea what caused that initial sleep disruption?
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, so it started this past summer, in August. And I had had a few nights prior to that where I had a difficult night sleep but it wasn’t every single night. And what had been happening, I’d say since about May, is that we had some rowdy neighbors, and they were having parties at night, and we were being woken up, us and some other neighbors, calling the police at 2:00 AM and things like that. And this became kind of not every night, but it was very disruptive.
Pat Boldys:
Anyway, so starting in around August is when my sleep problems became chronic. And I didn’t realize at first that it was because of that. It took me a while and actually after watching a lot of your videos that kind of a light bulb went on. Because I remembered saying to my husband one night when I got into bed, “I’m actually afraid to go to sleep tonight because I know that we’re going to be woken up.” And all of a sudden, one day I said, “That’s it.” I thought there was something terribly wrong with me. I’ve listened to a lot of your clients and a lot of your videos and people, and I thought, “Oh, there’s something wrong with me.” But then I realized that it was because I was now becoming afraid to go to sleep because I had been woken up so many times. That’s how it started.
Pat Boldys:
And then my reaction to not sleeping was very irrational. It was as if I had been diagnosed with a horrible disease and I was almost hysterical, “What’s wrong with me?” And then, finally, I found you, you’ve sort of made me almost feel like this is sort of normal and a lot of other people are experiencing the same types of things. So that’s really how it started, yeah.
Martin Reed:
It’s interesting how you have this clear memory, although it didn’t seem obvious at the time, yet now on reflection you have this clear memory of what that initial trigger for the sleep disruption was. And on reflection again, we can probably say, “Well, that makes sense that I would have sleep disruption dealing with neighbors, dealing with the concern. I’m probably going to have my sleep disrupted dealing with the stress associated with it.” And then it’s interesting because often once we’ve kind of adapted to whatever that initial trigger is, we usually find our sleep gets back on track.
Martin Reed:
But if it doesn’t, often, again, it’s another one of these things in hindsight, we can see that, “Well, maybe the way I think about sleep changed, maybe I started to pay a lot more attention to sleep, and I think and worry about sleep more. Maybe I even found it controlling my behaviors or I was controlling my behaviors in a bit to try and improve my sleep.” And it’s often when we fall into that part of the insomnia journey that we fall into this stage where our superstructure isn’t really down to our initial trigger anymore, it’s more to do with our response. Do you identify with that as a kind of typical journey that most people with insomnia experience?
Pat Boldys:
Yes, I do because I’ve had difficult nights in the past. In fact, I think it was in March, my husband and I were in New York City and one night, I couldn’t sleep the whole night, I don’t know why, but the next morning I felt very tired, but I didn’t even think about it. And we went home on the plane, and I kind of dozed on the plane, and I said, “I’ll just get to bed a little early that night,” which I did and I slept fine, I never thought about it again.
Pat Boldys:
But this time, I think because I had night, after night after night of little or no sleep, then it became just this feeling that there was something terribly wrong with me and I started just paying so much attention to it. And I remember one thing that you said in one of your short videos that insomnia is like a schoolyard bully, the more attention you pay to it, the worse it becomes. I thought, “Wow, that is just exactly what’s happening to me, so.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah, what kind of ways can you recall that insomnia was is affecting your life? And can you give us any examples of this kind of heightened attention, or this heightened role you’re allowing sleep, or the idea of wakefulness to play in your life? Did you find that it was, for example, affecting what you chose to do during the day or was it more to do with just your thought processes around sleep?
Pat Boldys:
A little bit of both, I would say. I do remember August, it was my birthday, and my son wanted to come over to give me a gift, and we’re going to celebrate. And I just said, “Not this year, I’m just miserable, I can’t function properly.” And I explained to him what was happening, and he was very surprised and I think kind of hurt. But I said, “Next year, I’m sure it will be better.” So I remember that and I remember just feeling really just sort of fragile during the day. I could burst into tears and, of course, my husband didn’t know what to do, and what to say, and that kind of thing.
Pat Boldys:
But it was when I actually started watching your videos and you talked about how a bad night sleep doesn’t have to set you up for a horrible day. And after I watched many of your videos, I completely changed my attitude and it was like night and day. I wasn’t sleeping any better at that point, but I got up and I said, “Okay, I’m just going to pretend I had a good night sleep.” And got dressed, went out for my walk. And if I saw someone that I knew, I just talk and I wouldn’t mention anything about not being able to sleep or having this problem, I just acted very normally. And that really changed a lot for me. And I give you all the credit for that because I was really in a bad place for a while.
Martin Reed:
Well, first and foremost, I give you the credit because it’s really hard, especially at first, to change those behaviors. And in the short term, it definitely does feel like a case of fake until you make it, this idea of going about your day as though you slept well when the thing that you really probably want to do is just either stay in bed all day or just sit on the couch all day, try and conserve that energy. But in hindsight, that typically just leads to more fatigue. The inactivity usually means more thinking and worrying about sleep. So that daytime inactivity is one of these things that we see that perpetuates sleep disruption and gives insomnia the oxygen it needs to survive. So I think it’s one thing to hear someone suggest, “How about you just try going about your day as normal, do some good stuff during the day,” but it’s quite another to actually get that fortitude to actually do it because it does take time for that mindset shift to happen.
Pat Boldys:
Exactly, and it’s hard when you feel. I could get through the morning okay, and then by the afternoon I felt sort of leery-eyed but I just thought, “I just have to do this because I know that if I sit here and feel sorry for myself, it’s just going to make everything so much worse.” And so, I finally realized, “Wow, at the end of the day, I really had a good day. I wish I could sleep better but I did things. I accomplished things.” I started reaching out to some friends to go out to lunch or something like that. Or if I saw my neighbors, I’d go up just to try to talk with them to get my mind off of my issue but I never mentioned anything to anybody about the insomnia except for my family, my husband and my two kids, those are the only people that knew about it.
Pat Boldys:
Because I thought that if I started telling my friends, then they’d be asking me about it all the time. And then I thought, that’s not good because then I’d be talking about it all the time. Like I said, they could try and make it and I think if you asked anybody if they ever knew I was going through this, they would say, “Absolutely not,” because I was still doing things as much as I can being in this pandemic, but still this summer, getting together with some people here and there. And that just helped, to act like, “Well, wow, I really had a decent day. I wasn’t crying. I wasn’t feeling sorry for myself. And so, the rest will come, I just have to be patient.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that’s a big thing about choosing to talk about insomnia and discuss sleep because the old adage is a problem shared is a problem halved or a problem solve. But often when it comes to sleep and insomnia, when we start to talk about difficult nights of sleep and how we’re struggling, things like that, it does just bring more focus and more attention to it, and it can almost extend that negative feeling and that negative relationship we can have with it.
Martin Reed:
So I think that it can be beneficial to talk about how you’re struggling with a small circle of people, just as you suggested, but maybe just don’t use that as a conversation starter or the core subject of your discussions with every single person you meet, because it does bring more attention to sleep. It kind of builds this insomnia identity within your personality as well because people might start to think, “Oh, here comes so-and-so, here we go, they’re going to start talking about their insomnia and if they don’t, what do I talk to them about? Oh, I know, I’ll have to talk to them about their insomnia because that’s all they really like to talk about.” So I think that was a really interesting observation. It’s interesting that you mentioned that and that you found that to be helpful.
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, and I even remember my husband would get up before me, and I’d come downstairs, and every morning he would say to me, “Did you sleep okay?” And I would just kind of go… or I’d say, “Yeah, actually I did.” Sometimes I’d burst into tears because it just be… And then, recently, now that I’ve been sleeping much better, I said to him about a month ago, I said, “You know what, don’t ask me anymore.” I said, “I know you’re concerned and you care.” I sometimes felt as though when I came downstairs, it was this anxiety I had that I had to say that I did sleep well where I felt like a failure, it was kind of strange.
Pat Boldys:
And so, he said, “Okay.” I said, “I know you care and everything I said, and if you don’t ask, I’m not going to think you don’t care.” I said, “But it kind of just made me feel like I was put on the spot.” If I’d walk into the kitchen and he’d be there, he would get up and come over, “Did you sleep okay?” It was very kind and I don’t know. So finally, now, he just doesn’t say anything. He doesn’t really have to because I am sleeping so much better.
Pat Boldys:
But I felt like, again, the more attention you pay to it, the worse it can be or I think more so though, I just felt as though it was like performance anxiety or something that I had to come down and say, “Yeah, I slept great. I slept like a baby last night.” And I almost never said that because usually… Or I don’t know, maybe I got two hours of sleep, maybe I got zero, so anyway. It’s funny how if you think about these things that are going to make things a little bit better if you say, “Well, that’s really bothering me that he’s asking this every morning, and I feel better coming downstairs and just saying hi, good morning, and getting a cup of coffee, and have a little chit-chat but no mention about sleep.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah, like I already said, I think it can be really helpful. But sometimes when I’m talking to clients, they’ll tell me, for example, “When I go to work, how do I deal with this? Because as soon as I get to work, everyone asks me about my sleep and about my insomnia because it’s something that I’m so used to discussing.” So I think a good example to help overcome that challenge, as you just said, is to say to people, “I’d prefer it if you didn’t ask me about my sleep, if it’s something I want to talk about, I’ll raise it and I’ll broach the subject.” Because like you said, especially when you’re having a lot of difficult nights, it’s hard enough to deal with those difficult nights, let alone then have to relive them again during the day if that’s all you’re talking about or you’re thinking about.
Pat Boldys:
That’s right. Like I said, that’s why I didn’t tell hardly anybody about it because I didn’t want to have people asking me all the time. And so, it’s funny how when you’re going through this, as I said, there are certain things that you just know you don’t want to do, or you don’t want questions or something. And that was one of them, coming downstairs, it was kind of like getting out of bed and saying, “Oh, no.” I felt like I was being judged or something. Not that my husband was judging me because, of course, he wasn’t, but it was just this, when I stepped into the kitchen like, “Oh, gee,” and he kind of, I think, was bracing himself wondering, “Oh, gosh.” So that worked out well because he said, “Well, I just want you to know that I really care.” And I said, “Of course, I know that you do, but this is just what’s going to work, so.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah, well, that’s good. It’s nice that you had someone close to you that understood that, that wasn’t offended by your request. So many times we can feel nervous or hesitant to say that to people like, “Please don’t ask me about my sleep,” for example, even people that were really close to for fear we’ll hurt their feelings or make them upset. We very rarely think about ourselves. But sometimes we do have to do things for ourselves, and more than nine times out of 10, I would say, that the people closest to us do understand that, when we raised the issue.
Pat Boldys:
Yes, and I think as long as you let them know in a nice way, and you just explain to them how you’re feeling, and why you’re making that request, then I think that makes all the difference. If you say, “Don’t ask me about that and I don’t want to talk about it,” then that’s a hurtful way to say it. But if you just say, “Listen, this is how I feel. I know you care, but the more attention that’s called to this, the harder it is for me.”
Pat Boldys:
And even I think when I was dealing with my therapist, filling out the sleep log and reporting back to him every week, again, I felt like I had this performance anxiety because I was two hours of sleep here, no hours of sleep there, and I just almost feel like a failure. And that’s one thing that I didn’t like was that I just couldn’t sometimes stand seeing how little I slept. And then he’d say, “Oh, gee, you need to…” I felt like I wasn’t doing as well as I should have been doing and it was taking too long. And so, that was sort of a bother to me too. I mean, he was a big help to me in many ways but that sleep log really bothered me a lot.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, it is really interesting with the sleep logs, the sleep diaries. Sometimes they can be really helpful, for example, if we feel like we’re not making progress, nothing’s really happening, sometimes they can tease out little snippets that suggest maybe we are doing little bit better than we might think. But for some people, other times they can bring more focus and more attention towards sleep. So it’s definitely not something that if you want to improve your sleep, you must fill out this sleep diary, this sleep log every single day, I don’t think that’s helpful. Some people find it helpful, but for some people, it just brings more attention towards sleep when our goal is almost always to shift attention away from sleep and onto other things in our life.
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, that’s just how I felt. I could see that I was making some progress based on the sleep log, which was good, but I don’t know, I guess after eight weeks of doing it, I just felt like I had enough of it. And then I started sleeping a little better, by the way.
Martin Reed:
Oh, wow, as soon as you stopped with the sleep log, you found that you were doing a bit better?
Pat Boldys:
Yes, I think it was around Thanksgiving. I was into this CBT-I therapy about eight weeks and I had made some progress, not as much as I would have liked, but I just told him that, I said, “I’d like to just take two weeks off and we’ll meet up again in two weeks.” And in those two weeks, I didn’t keep the sleep log. I kind of went to bed when I felt tired. I got up at the same time every day. I was very good about that and I did sleep better during those two weeks. I can’t say I slept great, but I got more sleep than I had been getting. And then I decided to just end therapy after eight weeks and to kind of go in on my own. I felt like I had learned so much from your videos and from Daniel Erichsen, his insomnia insights on his channel that I felt like I had the tools to keep going on my own.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, sometimes it can be helpful, if nothing else, to just experiment, give yourself a couple of weeks if you feel like maybe a change would be beneficial, for example, not keeping a sleep log anymore. If you just tell yourself, “Hey, I’m not really sure what the outcome will be but I give myself a couple of weeks. So for the next two weeks, for example, I’m not going to keep a sleep diary and I’ll see if I find it helpful or not.” If we just approach it with an open mind, a curious mind, sometimes it might be helpful, sometimes not, but we don’t know unless we try.
Martin Reed:
And it sounds like for you, you found that really helpful by giving yourself that opportunity to just keep on implementing the techniques and making sure that you’re not engaged in those thought processes or those behaviors that can perpetuate sleep disruption, but just make that change where you’re not just logging your sleep anymore, you’re not writing it down. You’re drawing a little bit of attention away, a little bit less attention on sleep. Give yourself a couple of weeks, see how it goes, and it sounds like that was helpful for you.
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, and even now, I’d say the last month I really seem to make a lot of progress but I don’t ever think, when I wake up in the morning, “Oh, how many hours did I sleep?” I don’t want to know, I don’t care, all I know is I slept, I wasn’t wide awake all night. It could be five hours, it could’ve been seven or maybe even eight, usually five, six, seven, but I don’t know. And all I know is that when I wake up, I feel fine, I feel rested and that’s all that matters to me.
Pat Boldys:
I don’t want to get into that trap of feeling as though I need a determinant amount of sleep every night. I have to get seven or eight hours. I don’t like that at all. I just want to know that I slept and I feel rested when I wake up, and I think that that’s the key really. And I don’t think every night is same, I think some nights you can sleep more than other nights and sometimes you have more awakenings than other nights, and that’s fine, I’m absolutely fine with that, it doesn’t bother me at all.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, it’s interesting how our mindset, to your sleep duration as an example, changes when we have insomnia. If insomnia is something that’s more recent, it hasn’t been with you all of your life, you can probably remember a time when you didn’t really think about sleep. And if someone asked you how much sleep you got, you wouldn’t have a clue. You’d kind of think, “Well, what time did I go to bed last night? What time did I get out of bed?” And you’d just kind of figure out the difference between those two times because it’s just something you didn’t pay attention to.
Martin Reed:
And when you had a difficult night, which is a normal part of life, again, it was something you didn’t pay attention to but it all changes when you have that struggle with sleep, then you become really focused on things like sleep duration. You pay a lot more attention as well to how you feel during the day, and especially in the morning, and it becomes really easy to attribute any kind of ache or pain or niggle, or blemish on your skin, for example, with how you slept. But because we’re not paying that attention when we have a better night, we kind of convince ourselves in our minds that everything depends on us getting X amount of sleep.
Pat Boldys:
Right, exactly, and I found it interesting too when I started watching your videos how you talked about having these predisposing factors to insomnia. And I checked all the boxes, just a little anxiety about my health even though I’m very healthy, what I eat, exercise, I’m a little too, I’d say, hyper-focused on those things and I think you could probably put sleep in that category to all these things that you think are going to make you really healthy and sort of being a perfectionist, which I am. I thought, “Wow, I can see now why this happened to me because I have, I think, this underlying anxiety about my health even though I don’t need to.”
Pat Boldys:
There’s one thing I did want to mention was that during this whole bout of insomnia, there were things about me that I sort of wanted to change in the way of being too hyper-focused on health and things like that. So I feel like there’s almost a silver lining to this because I did make some other changes in my life in response to the insomnia because it’s so funny. I thought, “Well, I’m not going to care too much about this or that because all I want to do is sleep.” That was the thought I wanted. It’s like, “If I gained two pounds, well, that’s okay, I don’t care, all I want to do is sleep. If my husband’s making a mess in the kitchen, I don’t really care because all I want to do is sleep.”
Pat Boldys:
And so, I did make some changes because I felt like I had needed to anyway. So this sort of facilitated that in a way and I feel like I’m in a better place now actually. And even having gone through this for several months, it was almost worth it to come to a better place, and to make changes that I think have reduced some anxiety, and that kind of thing. So it’s funny how sometimes you do go, “There is adversity,” and then something good can come out of it if you pay attention, and I think you have to pay attention to all of that, so.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think you’ve raised so many great points there, I’m just trying to keep track of them in my head as we’re going through it. One of the great points, I think, you made back a little bit earlier was some nights are different. Sometimes we lose track of that, we kind of expect every night to be the same. Sometimes we can place really hard goals in ourselves like, “I want to get this amount or this type of sleep every single night.” But that’s not how life works, that’s not how sleep works. It’s just like how every day is a little bit different. Every day’s a little bit different so it makes sense that every night is going to be a little bit different too, and shifting that mindset can be helpful.
Martin Reed:
And I think another great point you raised was being able to identify yourself either in others that have had insomnia, for example, just listening to these podcasts episodes or when you realize that you fit this model of insomnia, this 3P model perfectly. You realize that your insomnia isn’t unique because that can be helpful because then you’re like, “Oh, my insomnia isn’t unique, so that means that if I do what everyone else that had the same insomnia as me did to sleep better, then surely that will work for me too.” And recognizing the precipitating factors that might just push you a little bit closer to some temporary sleep disruption, it doesn’t mean you’re doomed to a life of insomnia, it just means you might experience some difficult nights from time to time, a bit more frequently than someone else.
Martin Reed:
It’s always, well, we need this precipitating event, this initial trigger, that’s what actually makes the sleep disruption happen. But it’s always our reaction that determines how long that sleep disruption sticks around, these perpetuating factors, the final P in that 3P model that I like to talk about. So as long as we can tackle those thoughts and behaviors, it might take time, we can’t make progress, we can’t command our bodies or our sleep to respond immediately, but if we work on tackling those thoughts and behaviors, we’re always going to make progress sooner or later because that really is the oxygen that insomnia needs to survive over the longer time.
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, and I felt as though when I first started going through this that the insomnia was more physiological kind of thing, and I had no idea that it was really all about what’s going on in your brain and the anxiety. And that’s one thing that was just so eye-opening and so educational. When I started to educate myself about this, and I got your advice, and Daniel’s advice, and the videos, and I thought, “Oh,” it was like a relief because I thought, “Okay, this is something that’s fixable.” And for me, the biggest change was to change my thought process more. And the behaviors, of course, helps too, but I think with me, because I did have some of this underlying anxiety, changing my thought process and changing my attitude about this really did sort of change things for me.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think there was another great point that you made as well was how you’re talking about maybe now you’ve emerged from this, this made you stronger and more resilient, so maybe there was a silver lining to all of this. And the point that you made that I think really stuck with me was that what can happen is sleep just becomes our overall arching goal in life when we have insomnia and it can be so easy to not pay attention to other things that would probably make our lives better as well, other than sleep.
Martin Reed:
A common example I can think of is we just put things off or I can’t go on vacation until I get my sleep back on track. I can’t do this or that until I get X amount of hours of sleep. But the problem with that is then we put more pressure on ourselves to sleep and we just make sleep the number one focus in our life. Whereas if we can kind of take the opposite approach and be like, “Regardless of my sleep, I’m going to go on vacation. Regardless of how I sleep, I’m going to be doing this.” And all those things that you then do, they’re going to add enrichment to your life, have positive moments to your life and draw attention away from sleep.
Martin Reed:
And that can just be so beneficial because often, when we think less about sleep, put less pressure on ourselves to sleep, worry less about sleep, that’s when sleep becomes a whole lot easier. And in the meantime, you’re also enjoying your life a little bit more because you’re just kind of forcing yourself to do good stuff during the day and plan good things.
Pat Boldys:
Yes, exactly, and I even started to do some volunteer work, I felt like I needed a little something else going on during the day. In the back of my mind, I said, “Well, what if I can’t sleep the night before?” And then I just said, “You’re just going to get up, and you’re going to go, and you’re going to just do it.” And sure enough, there were times when I would show up for this work and I didn’t feel very well at all, I felt tired, but I just did it. And I got through it, enjoyed myself, and talked to some people, and it was fine. Or I’d make plans with a friend for lunch or something. And when I went to bed, I thought, “Oh, no, again, what if I don’t sleep tonight, how am I going to meet this person for lunch?” But I did anyway, whether I got five hours of sleep, or two hours of sleep or no sleep, I just said, “No, you’re going.”
Pat Boldys:
And I had a good time, it wasn’t like I was miserable, I enjoyed it. And while I was having lunch or doing what I was doing, I wasn’t thinking that I hadn’t slept because I was focused on being with someone, talking with them and so forth. So I be better than sitting home feeling sorry for myself. I was very determined that I wasn’t going to let this take over my life at first. I was awful when it first started, but then I just thought, “I can’t live like this, this is crazy.” So I was determined, and I just stuck with the plan, and fortunately, things have worked out pretty well, so.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, it feels like maybe we’re repeating ourselves, but I think it really is important because it is so much to do with mindset. Before we think about sleep or paying attention to sleep, we can recognize that if there’s something about to happen the next day, we might experience some sleep disruption. And we kind of almost sort of expect it, pay no attention to it, don’t worry about it. An example off the top of my head is anytime I’m going to go on vacation, the night before if I know I got to catch a flight, for example, I find sleep more difficult but I don’t let it phase me. I certainly don’t then cancel the vacation because of it.
Martin Reed:
But what can happen is our mindset just shifts completely when we have insomnia, especially if we’ve had it for a long period of time. And anytime we experience that sleep disruption, it really just fires up this whole cascade of worry and anxiety, and it can make us avoid doing good stuff that would improve the quality of our life. And then, as a result, we ended up doing more thinking and more worrying about sleeping, it kind of just feeds into that insomnia.
Pat Boldys:
Yes, exactly, and that’s why I think you have to get on with your life, get on with your day. And I don’t think there’s any other choice, really, to just be miserable all day or like you said, conserve energy because you say like, “Oh, I didn’t get any sleep so I can’t really do much today because I…” I can remember getting almost no sleep and in the morning, I went out and ran three miles. And I had my music on, and I took a run, and I came back and I was just so proud that I did that on hardly any sleep and I felt good.
Pat Boldys:
The sun was out, it was a nice fall day and I remember thinking, “Wow, I feel great.” I wish I had slept better but I still was able to do that, and I felt strong, and I felt like I can get through this. It gave me strength. But it takes a lot of willpower or just, I guess, our strengths get your head in the right place to do that because it’s easy to do the opposite, to do nothing. It’s just lying low in bed, and maybe pick up a book and go. So I was determined but it’s not easy.
Martin Reed:
No, absolutely, and it is definitely way easier to be more sedentary during the day. But I bet, especially that first time that you just kind of forced yourself to go out for that run, for example, if nothing else, I bet it just improved the quality of that part of the day, if not the whole day, that part of the day compared to had you just have stayed at home. And I think the other bonus is, sometimes when we do these things, we can recognize that we can be remarkably capable, maybe more so than we give ourselves credit for even when we have difficult nights or if we’re living with insomnia.
Martin Reed:
The mind by default wants to try and protect us and it sees insomnia as a threat, so it says, “No, there’s no way you can walk out, don’t do it.” It’s kind of screaming at you not to do it. But then when you do it, you might notice, “Wow,” let’s use running as an example, “I covered an amazing distance or I run in pretty good time bearing in mind I didn’t get much sleep or I got no sleep whatsoever.” And when we can realize that we might be a little bit more capable too regardless of how we sleep, we might then put less pressure on ourselves to sleep, and worry less about sleep, and then that helps us get to that point where we think and worry less about sleep and start to sleep better.
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, and one thing that stands out in my mind when I was listening to one of Daniel Erichsen’s videos, he was saying how when you have these thoughts in your brain about, “Oh, no, I’m not going to sleep tonight.” Instead of sort of diverting your thinking to sort of welcome those thoughts and say, “I hear you, brain, I know you’re trying to warn me, but I’m okay. I’m not frightened. If I don’t sleep, I’m okay with that.” He always talks about sort of the friending wakefulness, as you do, about getting up and doing something you enjoy.
Pat Boldys:
But when I started doing that, that really changed a lot. It was really interesting how I started falling asleep a little faster or if I would wake up in the middle of the night, I think I mentioned to you in an email that I hated getting out of bed. And so, I would take myself on this visual journey of a trip that my husband and I had taken and kind of like narrate the whole trip in my head, which was something very pleasant, so I could stay in bed. I didn’t have to get out of bed, but I was very happy, and calm and thinking of a lot of very good memories. And that’s another thing that helped me too because I think I would’ve made progress a little sooner had I gotten out of bed more, but I kind of really struggled with that part of the therapy.
Pat Boldys:
I should say, when I was getting these thoughts, instead of trying to divert them, to welcome them and talk to my brain that way, that really seemed to be really great on. It was like, “Wow,” I was amazed how much that helped me. And then I noticed now, I’ll still sometimes get thoughts in my head but they’re fleeting, they sort of just go in and out of my head and then I’m thinking of something else. So the thoughts about sleep are much less than they were before I wake up and that’s all I think about during the day, is, “Oh my God, when is this going to end? I can’t stand this, another day, this is horrible.” But I found that insight to be extremely helpful, so.
Martin Reed:
Were you finding it was this similar kind of thoughts each time that will come up, whereas in the past, maybe you try and force them out of your mind, or push them out of your mind and you gradually adopted this approach of, “Well, these are just thoughts? Thoughts are just thoughts, they’re not necessarily true, they’re not necessarily predictions of what’s going to happen.” Did you find there was a common thing? Were they the same kind of thoughts cropping up time and time again?
Pat Boldys:
Yeah, I just wanted to know when is this going to be over? Am I ever going to sleep again? And after I found your videos and Daniel’s, then I knew that I would because I knew that there is this therapy. Everything you said, I was like, “Oh my God, it made perfect sense.” But getting back to your question, my thoughts were about, when is this going to end? How much longer is this going to go on? I knew there was nothing wrong with me, I knew that, I figured that all out at that point. I knew that there’s nothing physically wrong with me, but I guess it was just one of these things where, “Is tonight going to be better?” I never knew what I was going to expect.
Pat Boldys:
I think when you’re going through that, sleep is very unpredictable. You could have a good night, and then you can have three nights of lousy sleep, and then another… So that’s what was going through my mind but I kept trying to just kind of swap them away and not think about them because I thought that that would be bad to sort of ruminate into. But I think if you talk to your brain that way and you say, “I hear you,” because your brain is saying there’s this perceived threat. But if you say, “I hear you but I’m not afraid,” that really seem to help. I was amazed.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that when you try and push these certain thoughts out of your head, it just confirms to your brain that they are serious and they are something that it has to worry about, so therefore, it pushes back even harder. Whereas if you take the approach of, “Okay, mind, bring it on, give me all these thoughts, I’m ready for them.” Then there may be your brain’s like, “Oh, they’re telling me to think about this? He or she is telling me to worry about this, think about this, maybe it’s not quite a threat after all. Maybe I don’t have to pay this much attention to it.” And I think that’s where it can be so beneficial to get to that point where you just welcome these thoughts or, at the very least, just recognize thoughts for what they are, which is just thoughts, just little bursts of chemical electrical activity in the brain. It’s really all to do with our reaction to those thoughts that determines what it’s going to do to our stress levels and what our relationship with our thoughts is going to be.
Pat Boldys:
Exactly, and I hadn’t realized that. I thought that the answer was just to not think about it and that that was going to make everything worse. So it just seemed kind of, I don’t know, counterintuitive or whatever, to welcome those thoughts as opposed to trying to divert attention away from them. So I found that to be very, very useful. I heard Daniel talking about it and I said, “I’m going to try that from now on.” And he mentioned too, the visual journey and take yourself to a place maybe you’ve been that is beautiful. And that’s what I did, and narrated through the whole trip, when we left and where we went, we went to dinner here, and did that and all these nice memories. And that was really great because I was lying there thinking of something really pleasant, not, “Oh my God, when am I going to get back to sleep? I’m so miserable. What time is it?”
Pat Boldys:
And now the other thing you both of you mentioned was not to check the clock, and that is just so smart. And even now, when I’m sleeping so much better, I still never look at the clock, it doesn’t matter, it just doesn’t matter the time it is. I know my husband gets up at 5:30 or 6:00, so I know what time it is when he gets up. But If I wake up, I don’t care if it’s two o’clock, or three o’clock, or four o’clock or whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. And that’s huge, I think, because I think if you’re constantly checking the clock, it’s just so anxiety-producing. So I’m very glad that I found your videos. And the content on your channel is excellent and it really helped me a lot, tremendously.
Martin Reed:
That’s great, and that not checking the time during the night, it seems like such a small thing but I think it can really be so helpful because really, the best possible outcome of checking the clock during the night is not outcome, it’s neutral. So it’s never really going to have a positive effect, I don’t think. But almost invariably, especially if we’re worried about sleep, it’s going to lead to worry or just an increase in arousal. If nothing else, we have to kind of just figure out in our heads how much time is left till the alarm goes off, and that requires some brain activity, some additional thought which we don’t need to be concerning ourselves with during the night when we want to be asleep. So I think it can be really helpful.
Martin Reed:
Anything that you can do or think of that just makes being in bed more pleasant during the night, so for yourself you said it was welcoming thoughts, guided visualizations, just remembering pleasant things, pleasant memories, that can be really helpful too because it just makes being in the bed feel good. And I don’t think there’s any need to be getting out of bed during the night when being in bed feels good because it means, really, that conditions are right for sleep, so why get out of bed? But it’s just if you’re spending long periods of time in bed and that time doesn’t feel good, that’s when it can be sometimes more helpful to get out of bed, do a mental reset, maybe watch some TV, listen to music, read a book. Anything you can do just to make that wakefulness a bit more pleasant and just not fall into that trap of firing up all those anxious thoughts, thinking and worrying about sleep, putting pressure on yourself to sleep again during the night.
Pat Boldys:
Exactly, if I woke up, and it was a long time, and I was really anxious, I would get out of bed for a while, come back and it would go on three, four times or whatever. But it was always, especially when winter set in, fall and winter, and the house was kind of cold, and I’d have a place that I would go to with a blanket and all of that, but it wasn’t pleasant. But I think that lying in bed when you’re anxious and miserable is really not helpful. I think that’s when you have to get up and get out of bed.
Pat Boldys:
But the other thing too that I found so helpful is when you talked about, and I hadn’t understood that at all, the hyperarousal and those hypnic jerks. And I had no idea why I would start to fall asleep and then have that jerk. And then when I heard you talking about it, and people on your podcast, and things, then I was like, “Oh my God, everyone seems to have this.”
Pat Boldys:
And I think you also said the hyperarousal, that’s why sometimes you would get up in the morning and you wouldn’t feel that tired or if it is during the day because you are in the state of this hyperarousal, or I would try to take a nap and I still couldn’t sleep. And I thought, “Why can’t I sleep? I didn’t sleep all night long and it’s now two in the afternoon, I still can’t get to sleep.” And so, you explained, I believe, about this hyperarousal and my God, that, again, made just so much sense. And hearing these other people talking about, it just made me feel normal, that this is a very typical part of insomnia.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, that inability to nap is something that I come across quite a lot. So if you have insomnia for a long period of time, you might want to try kind of making up for lost sleep by trying to sleep during the day. And then when you try and sleep during the day and you still can’t sleep, then you can become really concerned that there’s something seriously wrong. But the issue is often twofold. First of all, there’s that heightened arousal, which is always going to make sleep a bit more difficult, requires more time awake to overpower that arousal. And second of all, sometimes it can suggest that we might not actually need some additional sleep. What we might be feeling is fatigue rather than sleeplessness, it’s so easy to confuse the two. Fatigue doesn’t lead to sleep, but sleepiness does lead to sleep.
Pat Boldys:
Right, and those, I think they’re called hypnic jerks.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Pat Boldys:
I would just be drifting off to sleep, and then I would just get that, and I’d be like, “Oh, then I’d be wide awake.” I guess that was my sleep for the night, I don’t know, two seconds or something, that was awful.
Martin Reed:
How did you find that you were able to move beyond them? Was it just a case of just accepting they’re going to happen for as long as we have that heightened monitoring, that heightened attention on sleep, or?
Pat Boldys:
Because that was interesting to me, there was a one point and I said, “Gee, I don’t have that hyperarousal feeling anymore. I don’t have those jerks anymore.” But I was still struggling a little bit with sleep, but I could tell that clearly, my anxiety level had come down quite a bit. And I attribute that to education from listening to your channel, from understanding really what was going on with me and I was accepting of it. And I said to myself that, “This is not great right now but I have to be patient. And I know that I have made progress, not as quickly as I would like, but I’ve made progress.” I could see that from when I was working with a therapist, but it was just very up and down, but still there was progress and I had to hang on so whatever little bit I could.
Pat Boldys:
I think that all of those things sort of contributed to the anxiety level kind of going down and realizing that slowly but surely, I was kind of overcoming this. And so, the education piece of this is so important, it’s so key because once you understand pretty much anything, then it’s just a relief and it’s kind of like, “Okay, now I know what’s going on.” And I think you’re able to just deal with it a little bit better than saying, “Oh my God, what’s wrong with me?” I had gone for a checkup, and my doctor, and thinking, “Oh.” And clearly, there was nothing wrong with me but it was just what was going on here in my brain which was really preventing me from sleeping, so.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah, some people find it just quite comforting to recognize that those jerks tend to happen as we’re actually transitioning into sleep. So if nothing else, they show the mind the body is capable of sleep and it is successfully transitioning into sleep. But it’s often that monitoring for sleep that we do when we’re really concerned about sleep. So as soon as we kind of drift off, we make that transition, the brain kind of snaps its fingers and says, “Hey, you fell asleep, congratulations.” But obviously, that’s not very helpful when we want to be actually staying asleep. So that’s why we do often see once the arousals, that monitoring starts to form, those jerks tend to happen less frequently.
Martin Reed:
So finally, I just wanted to quickly ask you, you talked about how just really the education, changing the mindset alongside some behaviors, really what you identify as the key to your success. How long did you find from the day you found, for example, my videos, the day from when you started working with a therapist to where you got to this point where you feel like the insomnia is kind of really in the rear-view mirror, how long was that process, would you say?
Pat Boldys:
I’m trying to think. I started working with the therapist the end of September, beginning of October, kind of like maybe October, 1st, and that went for eight weeks. So I’m trying to think, maybe four, five months, maybe four months. It was longer than I had thought. I thought by the end of eight weeks working with a therapist, I would be pretty much over it, but I wasn’t. And I think he was maybe a little surprised too. I don’t know why it took me longer, I guess it doesn’t matter, all that matters is that you do get over it. I hadn’t had the insomnia for very long when I started the therapy, it was only a couple of months. But I’d say in this past month is when things really got a lot better than I can say, “Now, I guess I’m kind of back to normal.”
Pat Boldys:
Sometimes I don’t want to say it to jinx it. I feel like I’ll jinx it but my husband says to me, “Gee, I think you’re really over this now.” And I say, “I think so.” I say, “But I don’t want to think about it.” I go to bed and I just kind of fall asleep usually. But even tonight, I went to bed and I had a bad night, I just would get up and be okay with that. I’d just be absolutely fine and say, “That’s the way it goes.” But I would say it was a few months before I really made the progress that I wanted to make. It was frustrating.
Pat Boldys:
But I think it took longer too maybe because I wanted the progress to be more so than it was, to go at a quicker pace. And I think that I was getting kind of, I don’t know, disappointed in myself. I felt like, “Oh, I can’t stand this much longer” But I just said, “You got to just hang on to any little bit of progress.” And that’s really what’s important, it’s not linear, it’s just sort of up and down. I think from August till now, it’s about six months, I would say. But I’d say the past month has been way better, maybe a little more than that. Maybe a month, maybe a little bit more, so.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think it’s really helpful for people to hear you describe that process, that it’s not linear, there are ups and downs, that we quite understandably want progress to happen quickly, but we can’t control progress, and so sometimes it does take longer than we’d like or often it takes longer than we’d like because we want it to be fixed immediately. But the problem is we can’t control progress, but we can control our behaviors and we can explore our thoughts, all these things to perpetuate that sleep disruption. And as long as we continue to do that, we are going to make progress, we’re going to keep moving forward. So it’s helpful to just focus on all the things we can control and let the things we can’t control like sleep take care of themselves.
Martin Reed:
And if we stay on the path, we will always make progress. Some people make progress quickly, some people take longer, but we’ll always make that progress as long as we keep moving forward. I know I’ve taken up a lot of your time here. So there is just one last question that I do like to ask everyone that comes onto the podcast. So I’d like to ask that question to you as well and it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and feels as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help and they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?
Pat Boldys:
I would tell them immediately to go to your channel, to look at all of your videos, they are extremely helpful. Your beautiful British accent is very soothing and your whole manner is soothing, it’s reassuring and especially to hear, “You will never lose the ability to sleep, your body will never lose the ability to sleep,” that was such a relief to hear that because I thought… So definitely go to your channel and hire you as a coach if need be because I think you’re very well-educated in this subject and knowledgeable. And you’ve been a tremendous help to me and I know that you’d be a tremendous help to anyone.
Martin Reed:
All right, well, I really appreciate your kind words. And as always, I always like to remind people that have got past insomnia, not really thinking much about their sleep anymore, that’s entirely down to their own efforts. Because I can give the information out, which is what I do, but it’s up to people to take it upon themselves, to make the changes, to give them a chance. And so, stay consistent, especially in the short term where you’re making all these changes and they don’t seem to be getting you the rewards or the progress you want, it’s so easy to give up.
Martin Reed:
So whenever I talk to people like yourself who’ve experienced this transformation, I really admire them because you show that determination, that tenacity. And I do think that you come out of it stronger, you come out of it more resilient, not just in sleep, but in other parts of life too. Maybe you now have shifted focus away from sleep on to other things that actually help you have an even better life. So yeah, I appreciate your kind words and I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your story. I’ve got no doubt that people listening to this can now identify with a lot of what you said. And hopefully, it will motivate them to make some changes and to recognize that all is not lost, there is a way past insomnia.
Pat Boldys:
There is, and just takes not to get discouraged, just to keep going, moving forward and they’ll get there, so.
Martin Reed:
Great, thank you so much, Pat.
Pat Boldys:
Thank you, Martin.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
Mentioned in this episode:
Insomnia Coach YouTube Channel
Daniel Erichsen’s YouTube Channel
I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com.
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1 hr 5 min
February 25, 2021How Hannah got her sleep back to normal after COVID by caring less about sleep while creating better conditions for sleep (#26)
Listen to the podcast episode (audio only)
Like many of us, Hannah began experiencing sleep disruption during the COVID pandemic. When it became clear that lockdowns were likely to be extended, Hannah started to find it harder to fall asleep. Before long, she also found it hard to stay asleep, too.
After trying different types of medication and finding they weren’t helping much (and came with some unpleasant side-effects), she found a website that shared insomnia tips and advice.
After trying a do-it-yourself approach, Hannah realized she would benefit from working with a coach so she could receive personalized support and guidance and so she enrolled in my online coaching course.
In this episode, Hannah talks about the new sleep habits she developed and how she changed her relationship with sleep-related thoughts, and tested the sleep-related beliefs that made sleep more difficult.
Ultimately, Hannah found that abandoning all attempts to control sleep, accepting difficult nights of sleep and sleep-related worry, committing to new sleep habits, and going about her days as normally as possible really helped her get her sleep back on track.
Today, Hannah’s sleep is back to normal — she typically averages around seven-and-a-half hours of sleep and is far more resilient to any one-off nights of sleep disruption because she was able to tackle the sleep-related thoughts and behaviors that perpetuate insomnia.
Click here for a full transcript of this episode.
Transcript
Martin Reed:
Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that nobody needs to live with chronic insomnia and that evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques can help you enjoy better sleep for the rest of your life.
Martin Reed:
The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.
Martin Reed:
Hello, Hannah, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on the podcast.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Thanks for having me.
Martin Reed:
It’s great to have you on. I always like to start right at the very beginning. So you’re going to be no different. I’d love to know if you can remember when your issues with sleep began? And do you have any recollection of what triggered that initial sleep disruption?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yeah, I do, actually. It happened about, I would say five or six weeks after the initial lockdown in March, when Coronavirus was really a serious thing and people were being told to stay home. My family and I have lived overseas in developing countries and we homeschooled for years with our kids. So, we actually felt initially like, “Alright, we got this, no problem. We know how to handle chaotic environments, water shortages, et cetera.” But I think it was probably after Easter.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So, worshiping with our church family is a huge deal for us. And we had to do Easter at home. And up until that point, I was like, “I’m doing fine, we’re all good.” We were healthy, nobody had lost their job. And so we felt good. But then, it was like that was a mark for me. After Easter, I think it just sort of settled in my mind like, “This is not a short term thing. This is going to be a long term thing, possibly.” And so initially I felt, okay. I’ve worked from home for years. So I know how to structure my day. But I noticed that it was taking me longer and longer to fall asleep at night. And I just was like, “Well, whatever. Maybe I need to exercise more or something.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
But it just kept going. It got harder to fall asleep. And then that sort of morphed into waking up in the night. And I thought, “What is this?” I don’t normally wake up. I’m not one of those people that even needs to get up and go to the bathroom typically. So I was like, “Okay, this is really uncool.” And then I would wake up, and I would be waking up with a panicky feeling. So it would be like, rapid heartbeat, becoming aware and having this dread feeling of like, “Oh, no, I’m aware, I can’t go back to sleep.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
So, I tried some over-the-counter stuff, but just like melatonin. I don’t like to use medicine unless I just feel like I have no other resort. So initially, I was trying things that were OTC but more in the melatonin herbal kind of stuff. But that did not work. I’m a driven person and it has to do with my background. I remember thinking like, “Okay, I need to find a solution. What I’ve done so far is not working. So I need to find something else. And I need to get on this because I had a lot of anxiety around not sleeping.” Everybody was jokingly saying, “During Coronavirus, I put on so much weight, and I don’t feel good.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
And I’m thinking to myself, “That is not going to be me.” But I had read that there’s a correlation between not getting enough sleep and being sluggish and putting on weight, whatever. And at 42 I was like, “I am not putting on weight and then having to work super duper hard to get it off. I’m not going to do that.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I ended up eventually, after nothing worked, calling my GP. She’s actually a personal friend of mine. And I trust her. And I said to her, “Look, I think I need to have a sleeping pill because I cannot sleep now. It’s actually snowballed, and I cannot sleep.” To her credit, she was like, “urgh” about it because she knows that people get hooked on them and in some cases they don’t work but she was going with … But I was like, “I’m anxious now in the day. It’s not even just at night. I actually have hyper arousal all day long.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
I’m a person of faith. I pray, I have many, many ways to deal with anxiety in my life. So this was very distressing to me because I almost felt like it was an out of body thing where I’m like, “My body is betraying me. I know it has to be in my mind somewhere. But now it feels physical to me. And I don’t know how to get beyond this.” So she did, she prescribed me Ambien. And she was like, “I would just take a half and only take it maybe every other day and just see how you do because people do crazy things on Ambien. So I took it and I didn’t sleep walk or have conversations with my husband where I was not in my right mind, although I know some people do that.
Hannah Vanderpool:
But it would help me fall asleep. But it did not help me stay asleep. And I told her, I was like, “This isn’t for me, sleep maintenance is an issue now. I’m glad that I can fall asleep. Lord knows I’m glad I can fall asleep, but, I can’t stay asleep.” So then she was like, “Well, okay.” So we tried a few different things. Finally, I started taking an antihistamine. It’s a hydroxyzine. It is a strong antihistamine that you can’t get except for by prescription. And I started taking that. And it’s true, it knocked me out. And I had no consciousness in the night. If I did wake up, I couldn’t stay awake because it was being drugged.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Initially, I was like, “I don’t really like how long it takes me to wake up in the morning because I really feel drunk in the morning.” But on the other hand, I had it in my head of like, “But this is making me sleep through the night. So far, I can’t find another solution.” Maybe I should just stop and let you ask another question. I don’t know. But-
Martin Reed:
No, you can keep going. This is great.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Okay. Meanwhile, I’ve got three teenagers at home, multiple animals, and I’m in charge of just running things at home. But I just am like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so tired in the morning.” And I found that all I wanted was sugar, which I don’t eat a lot of sugar. Normally I eat healthfully and I exercise. I have all these things that I do, but I was like, “All I want is Nutella.” It who was crazy. And I think it was because my body was like you’re sluggish or, I don’t know, drugged.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I always told myself, “This is going to be temporary. I am not going to be on a sleeping pill for the rest of my life.” I saw where some antihistamines, there’s been some studies that suggest that they’re linked to Alzheimer’s and dementia long term use. I don’t know if that’s true or not. But I was like, “I’m not going to be on this forever.” My grandpa had Alzheimer’s, my grandma had dementia. I’m like, “I’m not going to do this.” But I had grown psychologically dependent. The beautiful thing, I guess, if there is one about hydroxyzine is, you don’t develop a physical dependence.
Hannah Vanderpool:
I knew that it wasn’t like benzos or trazodone, or some of these other heavy duty sleep meds that actually do create dependence. So that was the only reason I took hydroxyzine, is I was like, “I don’t want to get hooked.” But what happened is I developed a psychological dependence on these pills. And I became convinced that if I don’t take them right now in my life, I’m not going to be able to sleep. So on a few occasions, I would be like, “I am going to stop. I’m not going to do this anymore.” And the few times that I tried, it was like a self fulfilling prophecy. I didn’t sleep and I was like, “See, I can’t do it.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
So fast forward about four months or five months. And by this point, I’m like, “This is starting to just feel like a life thing, I just have to have these sleeping pills and I feel so bad about that just because, I don’t know.” It’s probably pride on my part, but I just didn’t want to … I’m very healthy and I just did not want this. So I got on the scale and this is pure vanity. I do know that. But I got on the scale and I had in the last four or five months, I had put on something like nine pounds. And for me because I’m petite, I was like, “Since I was pregnant. I have never put on that weight.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
And I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I can’t blame it all on meds, but I don’t remember eating more, I really do feel that it’s because everything was just sluggish. There’s such a long half life for hydroxyzine, that it’s never fully … It gets out of your system about six hours by the time you take it again. So you’re just always in the state of like, depressed everything. And that is what it took, I was like, “I’m done. I am not taking these.” My husband saw me go to the medicine cabinet and be like, “I don’t care if I never sleep again, I am not having this.” So, that’s what it took for me, and then I had an awful, awful week, a week of just not sleeping.
Hannah Vanderpool:
I found then, and this was sometime in maybe like, late summer, I found a website that was so a labor of love. A woman who had insomnia for three years. And she chronicled her journey, but then also talked about CBT-I and how she was free from it. And so she was trying to help people DIY some CBT-I techniques, but I will say, including very detailed journals, different journals, there were lots of things. And so I read through that whole website. And I was like, “All right, I’m a classically trained musician, and this idea that you have a plan, you implement it, and you practice the heck out of it, and you just do it and you basically stick the landing, right, if you just practice enough.” So this is my background.” So I’m like, “I guess I’m just going to do it. I’m just going to try to do this.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
But somewhere along the line, I didn’t have any support. And I would have questions that would come up like, “Well, what should I do in this case?” And of course, there’s nobody there to ask, and everybody that I know is sleeping fine. So eventually, I just couldn’t really stick with it, I couldn’t really implement it. I never did do sleep restriction, because I was actually very, very … That was almost like a phobia for me, the sleep restriction. So I tried to do all the addressing your worries, get sunlight in the morning, exercise, limit caffeine and alcohol, do all these things. I tried to do all of those things. And those were easy, because it’s like, check. I spent 20 minutes in the sun today, check. But when it came to like really dealing with my schedule, my sleep schedule, I just was half hearted about that.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I got to the point where I was like, “I don’t know what the next step is, for me.” I had been praying about it as a person of faith. And so often, in my experience, I pray for something and the answer is not immediately there, but it does come. So I was just like, “Well, I don’t know what’s going on with me.” And people were telling me, messaging me and being like, “This could be perimenopause because some women really go through this early and you’re 42 and you don’t have any other symptoms, but it could be that.” And I’m like, “Well.” But they would say it in a way, like so sucks. Like, “There’s nothing you can do about it. You just have to join the party.” So I just had this defeated feeling. And I called my sister who is a therapist, I called her and was like, “Hey, I’m really struggling. I’m sad. I just don’t have time for this. You know, I’ve got a million other things to be doing.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
And she was like, “Well, I don’t have experience dealing with insomnia, but I have a dear friend who just went through a course of CBT-I with a therapist, and I’m going to call her and I’m going to ask her what she did and I’m going to get back to you.” And I said, “Okay.” So, she did. And she called me back and she was like, “Okay, so Aaron said that the number one thing that she thinks set her on track was sleep restriction.” And I was like, “I can’t do sleep restriction. I’m just not, I can’t. I’m already getting such little sleep. I can’t get less sleep than I’m already getting.” And my sister, I’m an oldest and she’s the baby, and she’s very soft spoken. And she’s like, “Well, okay.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
She didn’t want to argue with me. But she was like, “That’s what my friends said. And I don’t know what else to tell you.” So I was like, “Well, I can’t.” Well, what I said is, “Oh, I’ll think about it.” But what I was really thinking is, no. I can’t. Maybe two or three weeks passed, and I was online, just dinging around. I don’t even know what I was doing. And I happened upon an interview that you did with someone else and I listened to the whole thing.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And I was like, “I’m going to look more into this Martin Reed and just see what … It didn’t ever occur to me that I could maybe get support in an online way. I figured I’d have to go to a therapist. That’s what I thought I’d have to do. So I started looking into it, which for people whose minds are not in this place, maybe they’ll think this is woo woo. But I honestly was like, “I think this might be my answer to prayer. I don’t know. I know, it’s going to involve sleep restriction. And I’m going to have to get over it. I know it will, but I need the support.” So I signed up.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And that takes us to whatever other question you want to ask, that was my history up until … I will add this, I’m a very sensitive person. Just like loud sounds, horror movies I can’t do. I’m a writer, just a creative, and I sort of … Even strong perfume smells or anything, just my senses are very sensitive. I’m sensitive to the world, outside world, I don’t watch news. And this has been the way it has been my whole life. And I can remember two other times in my life, but I didn’t have really a word for it. But two other times in my life when I was a young person that I had a season of difficulty sleeping.
Hannah Vanderpool:
I remember High School was hard for me. Towards the end of high school, I was, for a variety of reasons, I remember looking back on it when I was trying to think about my life related to sleep. I thought, “It took me a long time to fall asleep at night in high school. And I was exhausted every day.” I was an orchestra. I was taking private lessons, and traveling and doing all that stuff. I was exhausted. But it took me a long time and I’d have to listen to music to go to sleep.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And then in college, again, driven, double major, and I remember there being a season in college, where, once again, it took me forever to fall asleep. I didn’t wake up ever. I don’t ever remember the waking up thing, except for if I had a nightmare. But I do remember it taking me a long time to fall asleep. And once again, I listened to music. And that did seem to be something that would help me probably because I’m a musician and I don’t know, it just did help me.
Hannah Vanderpool:
When we moved overseas, my family, my husband and I took three little kids, our youngest was four. We were in Asia, and our living conditions were unstable. It was a beautiful experience. We lived there for three years. I don’t regret any of it. I would go back tomorrow. But it was very different. It was a very big adjustment for us and for our kids. And I remember having six months or more of being like, “Wow, this is not jet lag. This is me unable. I cannot go to sleep until two or three in the morning.” In that case, I could sleep in in the morning so it didn’t strike me as like this horrible thing because I was coping. But I don’t like to stay up till two in the morning because usually if that’s happening, it’s because my mind is racing.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I knew that I’m stressed, this is what it is, I am stressed in my new environment, I’ll get over it. And eventually I did get over it. The difference between those times and now, I’m not really sure, except for this pandemic has gone on and on and on. It’s just such a prolonged thing that I felt this time something was different. And I’m like, “I can’t get over it. I can’t get over it.” And then also just some little fears like bars that had attached themselves to the whole issue of sleep. And also thinking like, “Is this my hormones, am I doomed?” I had kids young. So for me, I’m looking forward to these years. I know menopause is coming at some point, but I’m like, “I don’t want to just live for the next eight to 10 years being like oh, I’m in a hormonal nightmare every day, and I can’t sleep.” Okay, now I’m going to be quiet, you can ask me whatever, or say, whatever.
Martin Reed:
All of that was great. That’s why I didn’t want to interrupt you. Because I think so many people, although they might not have the same circumstances as you, I think they’ll identify with a lot of what you’ve shared. And that’s because, really, your insomnia or anyone’s insomnia, it shares, far more similarities, it has much more in common from person to person than differences. And just listening to you describe it, it’s like you fit that model that we have that describes how chronic insomnia develops perfectly. This three p model whereby we have the first p being predisposed. Some of us are just predisposed to sleep disruption whether that’s … Like you just described, we can be more sensitive to sounds, we can be really driven, really ambitious, always wanting to advance ourselves in terms of our career, and that can maybe just predispose us to more frequent sleep disruption.
Martin Reed:
And then we have this the second p, the precipitating event, you identified that as one time when you were traveling, and everything was really different. And more recently, the development of everything related to COVID. So, now we’re over the threshold and we’re experiencing sleep disruption.
Martin Reed:
Normally, sleep will just get back on track by itself sooner or later, as it did when you were done with that traveling experience, once you had adjusted to that, but sometimes it doesn’t. Like more recently before we started working together, and that’s down to the final p, the perpetuating factors. And these are all the things we do and all the things we think about completely understandably, in response to that sleep disruption, that instead of improving our sleep, perpetuate the problem.
Martin Reed:
So things like, we might start going to bed earlier than normal, or staying in bed later than normal, maybe trying to nap during the day, modifying our days in response to how we sleep, calling in sick, deciding we can’t meet friends, experimenting with pills, and supplements, all these different things. And they can perpetuate sleep disruption because they end up weakening our natural sleep drive, they can disrupt our body clock, and they can increase arousal.
Martin Reed:
All of these things are exactly what you described. And you became so tantalizingly close to addressing all those perpetuating issues. But you quite understandably, balked at this idea of spending less time in bed and went down the path of sleep hygiene, which I think is, again, important to mention or to just emphasize, because, unfortunately, for people with chronic insomnia, that’s their first stop that’s the thing that they’re recommended, or that’s the thing they find when they go online.
Martin Reed:
But we know, well, let me rephrase that. People who work with people with chronic insomnia know that sleep hygiene is not effective for people with chronic insomnia. Sleep hygiene is more to do with prevention, rather than addressing the problem. The reason that can be problematic is because, then, when we try sleep hygiene, it doesn’t work, then we can become even more worried that there’s something unique with our insomnia. We’re beyond help, and that something is seriously wrong. But in reality, the fact that our sleep is the same even after implementing sleep hygiene is to be expected.
Martin Reed:
So then you went on to, you were looking at the medication. And I think the ironic thing with that is just as you described, you felt like you were getting a little bit better sleep or you were falling asleep faster, but the way you were feeling during the day, it doesn’t sound very appealing just the way you were describing it. And when we consider that, so much of our concern, as it relates to chronic insomnia is how it’s going to impact our day. When we then take a pill, and we associate that pill with not having a great day, we get to this point where we have to ask ourselves, “Well, what is this actually offering me?” Because it seems to be that the solution is maybe even making the worst possible outcome even worse, so to speak.
Martin Reed:
And one thing that I always like to say, regardless of if someone is taking medication or not, is, sleep is only ever generated by the body. Medication can generate sedation, it can lower arousal, worry or anxiety about sleep, but any sleep we get, any true sleep we get is always being generated by the body. So, I always like to emphasize that because sometimes we can develop this belief that we’re only sleeping because we’re taking medication, especially when we get to that point where we’ve decided or we try and experiment to come off of it. And we find that we’re struggling with sleep again. And then we can really think, “Oh, I must need this to sleep.” But the reality is, anytime we make a change, especially when we already have a heightened level of arousal around sleep, more monitoring for it, the brain wants to see what the consequences. So we don’t take a pill, then the brain has to stay a little bit more active just to see what the outcome is.
Martin Reed:
And because our brain is more active, because the arousal is a little bit higher, we then need more sleep drive to overpower that arousal and make sleep happen. So, if we’re able to stick with it, eventually sleep drive will make sleep happen. But what can be so easy to happen when we’ve lost all of our confidence around sleep is, that night, we don’t take a pill or we take less of the medication and we have a difficult night, it can reinforce this mistake and belief that we can only sleep with the pills and with the medication.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s exactly what happened to me. And then the sense of, almost weird sense of failure. Like, I’m trying to get off this medicine, but I can’t. Or I can but maybe it’s going to mean sleep is a thing of the past. It’s really sad. It’s an emotional thing too, it was for me. I felt just defeated, really. So-
Martin Reed:
Yeah. Just because I know a lot of people are going to be curious, what was that website when you first learned about sleep restriction and sleep hygiene, etc.etera, do you remember?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Okay, I think it’s insomnia-free.com. And I think there’s a dash. I’m trying to visualize it. I have bookmarked it. Because the woman is funny too. It’s funny, and after going through your course, going back and rereading now with having been through it, I’m like, “Oh, she’s she’s saying stuff that is absolutely true. It’s consistent. It’s not like she’s offering wacky advice.” It’s just that she’s asking people to do things that I think are often difficult to do without a human being on the other end being like, “Here’s how you need to do this, or, what do you think about this?” It’s support.
Martin Reed:
Yeah.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yeah, I think that’s the main downside of trying to DIY it. I’ll DIY any number of things. But this was something where I was like, “I can’t do it without help.”
Martin Reed:
Yeah. And that is a theme that comes up a lot just in these podcast discussions because the techniques themselves, and we’ll definitely talk about them a little bit more in a moment, the techniques themselves on paper, they sound pretty straightforward. Really, they are pretty straightforward. But they’re not easy to implement, especially in the short term. And if we’re already at that stage where we have a lot of worry or concern or anxiety about sleep, this idea that maybe our sleep is even going to get worse than it is right now, it’s going to get worse before it gets better if we do this, that alone, it can be hard enough to get started, let alone to keep going before you actually start to get the results, because the results rarely occur immediately. You have to put yourself through this, staying consistent before the results happen. And it can be hard.
Martin Reed:
And so I think it is helpful to have, whether it’s a coach, whether it’s a therapist, whether it’s some other expert, who’s really familiar with the techniques, to help just reassure you, that everything you’re going through everything you’re experiencing is normal. And if you just keep going there is that light at the end of the tunnel.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yeah, absolutely. I wish I could have been chilled out about it. I mean, the truth is, if I could have been chilled, which I’m never chill about anything, but if I could somehow be just like, “Yeah it’s okay.” I probably could have implemented some of the things, or most of the things, maybe all the things that I found on that that website, because it’s very wonderful. It’s a wonderful resource. But by the time I was reading that website, I was desperate. And so I didn’t feel objective at all. I felt the way a person feels like they’re slipping under the waves will grab anyone who’s near them, and try to drown them too inadvertently. Because you just have that sense of, I’m desperate. And so yeah, especially, like you said, when you’re in a situation where you already feel big emotions about not sleeping, and maybe in some cases, even full on anxiety, then you need a human being. I just really do believe that.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. So let’s move on to the techniques that you are implementing, because I remember when we first started working together and you showed me that first sleep log, that first sleep diary that you submitted, again, just like many people with insomnia, you were spending a lot of time in bed each night, definitely a lot longer compared to the amount of sleep you were typically getting on an average night. And this is one of those perpetuating factors. Because, it can weaken sleep drive when we spend a lot of time in bed, going to bed before we’re sleepy enough for sleep, and it can increase arousal as well, because we just set ourselves up for prolonged nighttime wakefulness.
Martin Reed:
So I believe we came up with an initial plan. And we said, “Well, how about just giving yourself six hours in bed each night. Allotting six hours for sleep each night?” So when you first heard that, what were your initial thoughts? Was it something you were expecting and prepared for and feeling enthusiastic about? What were your thoughts about it and how did you then progress on to actually implementing that?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Well, my entire life, had instructors or mentors, or in many cases music teachers, and I’ve related one-on-one to them. If I consider them to be the expert, I’m like, “You told me to do it, I’ll do it.” The time for even thinking about it and feeling anything about it, is done. I am in it. And I’m going to do it. I think initially, I felt a little sorry for myself, because my husband is an early to bed early to rise guy. And so I knew that what this was going to mean is that I was going to be out in the living room. My kids are night owls, teenagers are, they’re just night owls.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I knew that what that was really going to mean, because we don’t have a huge house, is that I was going to be spending time in the main area, which was not going to be relaxing, per se. It’s just life. So, it wasn’t like I could go to a den somewhere and just chill and be like, “Okay, I’m just relaxing.” No. It was like, “Oh, I can’t go to bed. I have to stay up till midnight, and kids are going to be up.” They’re wonderful. I love them so much, but I’m an introvert and I would have ideally liked to just be by myself for that time read or whatever. But that’s not typically what happened. Although they were really good. They knew I did not want to be awake.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So, at one point, I literally sat in a chair, and I put headphones on, I wasn’t even listening to anything. I was like, “This is me, creating a wall around me. I can’t have any heartfelt conversations. I can’t do any of that right now. I am just going to be sitting here and trying to allow my body to just relax.” And I will say that, it wasn’t the staying up that was so terrible, although I did get tired, so super tired at like eight or nine. And I would often have to fight falling asleep. It wasn’t the staying up that was so terrible, it was waking up at 6:00 every morning, regardless of if I slept or not. That hurt.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And for my husband, it’s fine, because he’s already getting up. But the kids were sleeping, I just was dragging myself out of bed and being like, “Oh, man, this is … But I had this feeling of, this is going to work. I had already looked up before I even approached you. Just from the NIH and other studies that said that sleep restriction was extremely effective in many, many cases. So I already went in with this idea that this is like eating your broccoli. Like, “I know that this is going to work. So I’m just going to do it.” So yeah.
Martin Reed:
That’s great. Yeah, I think it’s an awful phrase sleep restriction, isn’t it? Because it implies that we’re restricting sleep itself, but we’re not, we’re just restricting the amount of time we spend in bed to more closely match the amount of time we typically spend asleep. Not the amount of sleep we want to get, but just the amount of sleep we’re currently getting. So really, I think it should be called wakefulness restriction. I think that’s a more appropriate and approachable phrase as well. Because when you hear sleep restriction, when you already have insomnia, you’re like, “I’m already restricting my sleep. Why would I want to restrict it anymore?”
Hannah Vanderpool:
Right, yeah. That’s a good idea.
Martin Reed:
Maybe you’re going to give me the same answer, but, how did you stick to that consistent out of bed time? Because that is something that people do often struggle with, especially when, I don’t know, it’s almost like someone’s working against you, and you can be up all night, and then you fall asleep an hour before the sleep window ends, then your alarm goes off. And you think to yourself, “If I just shut that alarm off, I know, I’ll get like three or four hours of sleep. But the rules say, I’ve got to get out of bed.” How do you deal with that challenge? How do you just force yourself to get out of bed?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Well, it’s probably different for everyone, what gives you the motivation to do that. For me in my particular personality, it doesn’t matter if I’m training for a race, because I run or whether it’s weight training, or whether it’s performing or writing finishing a novel, if it’s a program, and I’m like “I have a plan.” Then I’m going to do the plan. That’s how I am, I’m maybe a little tiny bit Taipei. But really, I’m like, “That’s what the plan says I’m doing it.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
And I think the reason I do that, the way I shift to, that’s the plan, just work the plan, is because if I actually try to check inside, and be like, “Do I feel like doing this? How am I feeling today?” I don’t get good feedback, because I’m actually feeling bad. I’m feeling bad, because it’s not fun to do something that feels like a struggle, right? We don’t want to struggle in life at all, we would never choose it. But that’s where growth is often. So I think rather than looking inside and trying to take my internal temperature, I just was like, “This is the plan. I’m working the plan. That’s all there is to it.” So I just did, I just did.
Martin Reed:
I think that can be helpful. I like to use the phrase set it and forget it, were you just have this list of rules, and you’re just going to follow it no matter what. And you also raised a really good point about if we’re just always evaluating every day, well, was getting up at 6:00 in the morning helpful? Was not going to bed until midnight helpful? How was my sleep last night? And then thinking about what’s my sleep going to be like tonight? Obviously, it’s completely natural, that’s where your mind wants to go. But when we’re just doing this ongoing evaluation and exploration, all we’re really doing unfortunately, is just increasing that arousal. We’re just bringing more focus and attention to sleep and like you touched upon, when we look for things we tend to find them.
Martin Reed:
So if we look for, let’s say we have a couple of hours, we have a really bad night, we have a couple of hours of sleep, maybe no sleep, whether it’s subconsciously or consciously we’ll probably scan our bodies for all the effects and when we scan our body looking for something we probably going to find it. So we might notice like aches and pains and niggles and anything negative that happens during the day, we’re just going to immediately by default, blame that on our sleep, which it might be connected, but it might not be. And this is another one of those things that can then perpetuate the sleep disruption because it just feeds into this arousal system and just makes us more worried about sleep. So I think that was some really good insights there that you just took the set it and forget it approach. And instead of putting effort into evaluation, it was all focused on implementation.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yes. And lest I sound like I just did everything great, as you know, I had real moments of low points of being like, yes, I do see improvement, but I’m seeing improvement in to the tune of like, 20 minutes of more sleep stretched over many days. And I think I got to the point where I was starting to lose my nerve of just like, “It isn’t even that I feel bad.” Because when I really filled out the sleep diaries, I was like, “You know what, every single day, I’m I’m doing pretty well, like every day.” There were some days where I felt low energy towards the end of the day, and you encouraged me, “Why don’t you just work out anyways? Or why don’t you just try, test your limits a little bit to see if maybe you’re capable of a lot more even on less sleep. And I’m glad that you said that I did do it. And I did find that I was totally okay.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So that was good to test some of those beliefs that I had. I think the biggest hurdle for me was an emotional one. Again, I’m pretty strong. And I’m pretty strong mentally. But sleep has always been like … I was that mom that I had postpartum depression every single time and I had three kids in a very short amount of time. So I was very, very tired. And I remember being like, “I would have 10 kids, except for, I cannot stand the waking up multiple times in the night with the baby that lasts forever.” So sleep has always been for me, I think an emotional, not getting sleep, because I want to actually lose consciousness. And I want to have a break from my own brain.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And so, about halfway through our time with doing this course, I was seeing progress. But I also was having bad nights still, on occasion. And when I would have those bad nights, I would be like, “I cannot believe how much this is setting me back emotionally. I really feel like I need to call my therapist sister because I’m so upset about it.” And I’m just going to say this, because I think a lot of people fall into this category, I would guess, maybe it’s just me. You said this, and you were very gentle about it. But the bottom line is, sleep is not something you can control. And with so much in my life that felt like it was out of my control because of the pandemic, and because I liked to just be an achiever, I really did have this mindset of like, “I know it’s not something I can control, yes, but actually I really can. Because if I just do everything correctly, I will be able to control it.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
And then when I would have a bad night, it felt like getting an F on an algebra test. I’m like, “I am doing everything and this is the result that I get.” So honestly, I think there were two levels going on here. We don’t have to go in this direction. But there was one level where you were dealing with the sleep. But there’s another level where I think God was dealing with me because I want to control things. I know it’s human. I know, we all want to control our environment as much as possible. But there are some things that ultimately you and I have no control over. We can do positive things. I’m not saying that we’re robots, we can make meaningful choices, but there are things that are beyond our ability to control.
Hannah Vanderpool:
For instance, I’m in this stage right now, where two of the three of my kids have driver’s license, they work, they are still able to work even through the pandemic and they work at night, which means they’re on the road at night. They get home at 10:00. But I actually have to fight imagining, what if they get in a car accident? What if something happens to them? Because I cannot control that. So this is meta, but sleep for me, was actually more than just sleep. It was about letting go of control of the things that I can’t control.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think that’s a great point. And going back to the core of it again, it’s completely understandable why we would want to control it. Pretty much everything in our life responds positively to effort. Maybe sleep might be the only exception to that. But it’s understandable why we want to put effort into sleep, why we want to control sleep, but we cannot. But that doesn’t mean that we’re beyond help. Because what we can do is we can control how we react to difficult nights, we can control our sleep related behaviors, there are things we can control that increase the likelihood of better sleep, that create good conditions for sleep. And so I think that’s really helpful.
Martin Reed:
And also exploring this idea of, well, why do I want to control sleep? And then we can go down this route. “Well, I want to control sleep, because I know that if I have a difficult night, for example, I can’t go out and eat, I won’t be able to go to the movies, I won’t be able to go to a restaurant, I won’t be able to work out as well. I won’t be able to exercise as well.”
Martin Reed:
So how about now we test that belief? So instead of, lets just use working out, instead of not working out because I had a difficult night, how about we just try it and just test that belief. Test it. Just an experiment, because it might be true. But we don’t know unless we try it out. And sometimes when we do that, maybe we can’t work out as intensely or it doesn’t feel as good, but often we can be surprised by how capable we can be even after a really difficult night, maybe even after no sleep, maybe even after a few nights of little to no sleep.
Martin Reed:
And then we can think, “Maybe I don’t have to worry quite so much about sleep, maybe I don’t have to try and control sleep quite as much.” And then that in turn can help just lower all that sleep related arousal one of these things that perpetuates insomnia, and really keep us on that path towards better sleep.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yes, absolutely. And that’s been the case for me. I’ve had to confront a lot of sleep fears or fears that are associated with not sleeping, and then combat those with more rational and true thoughts. And in the last month, my sleep has only continued to improve. This last week was crazy, because we had plumbing issues in our house. And we had a technician in our house till almost midnight.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So there were a couple of nights that were wacky, not because of insomnia, but because of extenuating circumstances, which is life. I did have the night before last, we think that my son has COVID it’s very mild, but he has some symptoms and lost all sense of taste and so we were like, “Man.” He’s okay, and we’re all okay, but it meant that we were all quarantined. The day that that happened, which was a couple of days ago, the day that that happened, I was like, “No, not again.” And that night, I fell asleep fine as normal. But woke up in the night, laid there tried to go back to sleep. And for the first time in many, many days, I was like, “I got to get up. I got to get up and get out of bed. Got to go do something else.” Then I eventually came back in, did not look at the clock. My clocks are all in my bedroom. They’re turned away. I never look at them.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Didn’t even look at it on the microwave where I was when I got up and then laid back down eventually, slept through the night and when I calculated my sleep, it was a decent amount. It was like six hours. But that’s such a huge change because even having a difficult night. I bounced back, I exercised to the next day, and the day after which was last night I slept eight hours. And now for me at week 12, I’m routinely sleeping between seven and eight hours. And seven hours is on the skimpy side like typically seven and a half. But sometimes eight. That’s pretty much how much sleep I got before all of this happened.
Hannah Vanderpool:
The reason I share that story about even this week is because I still, some nights, will lay there and have this residual, fluttery heart, little bit of rapid heartbeat, falling asleep almost like my body wants to not do it. But I’m like, “I’m just accepting this feeling, it’s okay, this is not going to keep me from sleeping.” And then I do fall asleep within about 10 to 15 minutes. And this is a huge change for me. But I want to say this to give hope to anyone who may be the anxiety lingers a bit longer than … It’s not something that for me has just gone away. I don’t have anxiety in the day, like it is 100% better. Because in a lot of ways, life is still crazy around here. It’s crazy town in the US.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So we’re still all living through some very big things, very momentous things in our history, and that does get under your skin. And so I would be lying if I said that I don’t still have to be mindful of like, “Okay, I’m feeling a little ramped up.” Wait an extra 15 minutes before trying to go to bed or.” And yet, I’m still sleeping between seven and eight hours a night and I don’t wake up that often. If I do, it’s probably one or two nights a week and I wake up for like, 30 seconds, and I’m right back asleep.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I say all that to say that, like the techniques work, they work better than I could have hoped. And even though I felt very low a couple of times during that eight weeks. And I still sometimes struggle with feeling like, “Why am I feeling so performance oriented with sleep? It’s stupid. Why is this so much part of my DNA that I can’t let go of that tendency?” But those habits die hard. It took me a while to get insomnia and I think it’s just taking me a while to deprogram from that way of seeing it, I guess.
Martin Reed:
Yeah, I think that’s a great way of looking at it. It took a while for the insomnia to develop. So it makes sense, it’s going to take time for you to move past it. And it’s not just this magic on off switch, there is going to be ups and downs along the way. And if you have worry or anxiety about sleep, that’s really something that is tackled over the longer term, through just repeatedly experiencing better nights. Those thoughts that once generated really intense worry or anxiety lose their power. That’s not to say they go away, but they lose their power. And we react in a different way to them.
Martin Reed:
One reason why I love all these behavioral change techniques, and just changing the way we think about sleep is, and I think you touched upon this, is they build resilience. It’s almost like we come out of it a much stronger person than before the insomnia ever affected us. Because we know how to react, we’ve gone through this, we’ve come out of it. So we feel stronger. We are then armed with all these skills and techniques. So we know exactly how to respond to difficult nights. And we know that should insomnia every return, we just do exactly what we did in the past that worked for us, we just do it again. And there’s no reason to believe it won’t work again.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yes. And in fact, I printed out that encouragement checklist that you have where you talk about don’t panic if you experience a couple of bad nights in a row, you beat insomnia before you can beat it again. And it is a reminder of what are some of the techniques that worked last time. And I have this full length mirror in my bedroom, and I just taped it to the top of my mirror. It’s almost like when a baby has a blankie or a pasty because I just have it there. And I’m like, “I don’t need it right now because I am consistently getting better. But there’s my list. And if I do need it, there it is.” So yeah, that was really helpful.
Martin Reed:
That’s great. And another point you touched upon is how you’ve just continued to make progress, even though we’re not working together anymore. And that’s another reason why I love these techniques. Because they’re skills based, and it’s almost just like learning new habits. And so once we’ve implemented them, got some results from them, we’re confident in our effectiveness, we become our own coach, we become our own therapist, we become our own counselor, we become our own cheerleader, and we can just go ahead and just carry on by ourselves. And that experience that you just touched upon of, my sleep is still doing well, still getting better, still having better nights. Even though the training wheels are off, I’m doing this by myself now. And that’s another reason why I’m just so enthusiastic about just behavioral change and exploring thoughts that perpetuate insomnia as a way of moving past insomnia, because it’s just so helpful for the long term.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yeah, absolutely. And so I’m just very pleased. I’m very thankful for the way that this has turned out. And I’m very thankful for the way that you were super quick to respond, answer questions. Basically, it helped me breathe into a paper bag a couple of times, I was like, “I’m not okay.” That has helped me and I … Yeah, you can’t really put a price on that. So, I just want to thank you publicly for that.
Martin Reed:
Well, I appreciate that. Talking about the techniques themselves we’ve covered how you allotted a more appropriate amount of time for sleep restriction, the official phrase for it, we briefly touched upon this technique of just getting out of bed, whenever being in bed doesn’t feel good during the night. Just to try and make that wakefulness a bit more pleasant, to eliminate any temptation to put effort into sleep and to prevent you from reinforcing any negative association between your bed and just unpleasant emotions, unpleasant wakefulness.
Martin Reed:
And you touched upon exploring the beliefs that you may have had, that you may have developed about sleep that may have been encouraging you to put pressure on yourself to sleep to try and control sleep, what the next day will be like, or I can’t do this if I have a difficult night. So I know that we’ve covered those, was there anything else that we might be missing? Was there anything else that you picked up that you found particularly helpful that you think anyone listening to this might find useful?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Well, I will just say that I liked how, when it came to relaxation techniques that you were very open ended with that, and encouraged us to pick something that we resonated with, or something that seemed like it worked, but not to feel tied to one method or another. For me, what has been most successful, I would say, in dealing with sleep, anxiety, even that hyper arousal that your body wants to do, even when you didn’t have it five seconds before you laid down and then you lie down and you’re like.
Hannah Vanderpool:
For me, what was ultimately more effective is to simply sit with that feeling and not try to fight it in any way. Not that relaxation techniques are fighting it. I know those are there to help your body and also to help distract your mind basically, from focusing on your anxiety. But for me, it was more effective to just let it pass. I think the more attention that I give to those feelings, and maybe because I am so performance driven, it feels like even relaxing can be, am I good? Am I doing a good job relaxing? Sometimes it’s better for me to just be like, “This is a bad feeling. And it’s okay, it’s not actually going to kill me.” Just like weightlifting. Sometimes when you’re squatting with a barbell on your back, it feels bad. You feel like you’re going to, I don’t know, explode. But it’s okay. It’ll be okay.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And so I think that kind of self talk actually, has been more effective for me. And one more thing, I did implement the getting out of bed sometimes in the early stages multiple times a night. I found that to be the most difficult thing of any of it. That was extremely hard for me. I’ve looked on your forum and seen some other, and it may be hard for both men and women, but what I’ve seen, it seems especially hard for women. I think it’s because we’re cold at night, a lot of us, and getting out of bed feels like murder.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So, I did do it, but about halfway through, I tweaked it and I was so glad, you confirmed this and said that this was okay. If I’m not feeling bad in bed, if I’m not feeling anxious, if it’s not a negative, then I can just be comfortable and lay there. And I don’t necessarily have to leave bed, if being in bed is okay and it seems like the conditions would, as you said, would be right for sleep. That was helpful for me because, again, the getting out of bed, it was good initially. I think it did really break that connection that being in bed is to struggle. But long term, man, especially in the winter, I was like, “Oh, this is the worst.” So, that actually was the hardest technique for me. It might be for somebody else too. But it can be really helpful.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. It is definitely a challenging technique, especially when, again, it comes down to this, we’re striving for sleep, we want sleep to happen. So the last thing we want to do is get out of bed. But, at the end of the day, if we’re awake anyway, if that wakefulness feels unpleasant, we might as well do something that’s going to make that wakefulness a little bit more pleasant. So I think it can be helpful to reframe it, instead of thinking, “Oh, I’ve been awake for 20 minutes, half an hour, I have to get out of bed.” How about well, does it feel good? And if it feels good to be in bed, then why get out of bed? Because it feels good, you’re in your sleep window, conditions feel right for sleep, maybe sleep will happen.
Martin Reed:
And that can make it a lot more approachable, and I think just as effective, because all we’re really trying to do is make sure that nighttime wakefulness isn’t unpleasant. And we’re trying to avoid reinforcing this negative association between the bed and unpleasant wakefulness. And I think it was also really important what you said about, I know we’ve touched upon our temptation to control sleep, but your temptation to control your thoughts about sleep, trying to suppress thoughts, trying to push them away from your mind, trying to convince yourself that those thoughts aren’t there or that they’re true or that they’re false.
Martin Reed:
All of this can be really unhelpful. Just recognizing that thoughts are just thoughts can be helpful, that they’re not always accurate, that they’re not necessarily facts, and that we don’t have to respond to them. But I think that is a higher level skill that can take a lot of practice, and it can take time to get to that point. But I just think it was helpful the way you mentioned that because so much of it can come down to control. And with your permission, I know, I emailed you this before our chat, I would love to just quickly read that excerpts that you emailed me when we were working together about this apparent conflict between, well, you’re telling me not to control sleep or put effort into sleep. So therefore, why am I staying out of bed until midnight? Why am I getting out of bed at three in the morning? Why am I doing all these things? Surely that’s effort, but the way you phrased it was just brilliant. So I’d love to read that if that’s okay with you.
Hannah Vanderpool:
It’s all right, go ahead.
Martin Reed:
All right, so this is what you said. “I guess the problem as I see it, is, we sign up for the course because we know something’s wrong and needs correcting. We want sleep. But in order for it to work, we have to convince ourselves that we don’t care if we sleep, thus lowering our anxiety. But deep down, we know we do care. So the game then becomes, how can I trick myself into a state of not caring? That’s probably crudely put, but that’s how it seems to me. I know I want more sleep, or I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing. But I’m finding it really hard not to care about sleeping. I’m trying to follow all of the suggestions religiously, but it seems like my sleep anxiety wants to metastasize with every effort I make, and that’s what I want to overcome.” So looking back on that now, what would you say your answer is to that apparently conflict between not caring, but caring enough to make changes.
Hannah Vanderpool:
I wish I could remember or put my finger on the point at which it started to shift for me, because I wrote that and was like, seriously, this is what I consider to be the Achilles heel mentally of all of this, is like, how do you reconcile this? But I have to say over time, and I do not remember when it happened, I did start caring a little bit less about sleeping. And I think the reason that I started caring less, is that I was like, “The truth is, I’m actually doing okay whether I sleep or not.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
So it’s like when you’re watching what you eat, and you’re trying to eat more healthfully, you cannot literally control metabolically what your body system is doing, how it burns the calories, what it does with the nutrients, that’s beyond you. But what you can do is be like, “You know what, part of who I want to be as a person that does what I can do to take care of my body. So I’m going to enact these things. I’m going to eat a green salad, because I know, it’s good, and I want to do it.” But as far as being obsessive about like, “Okay, so then what does that mean? What nutrients went where?” It’s like, that doesn’t matter.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So, I’ll be honest with you, it’s like, I don’t remember. But I was thinking about it the other day when you sent me that email, and I was like, “I didn’t do any tricking of my mind. It just over time, it just happened. I just started realizing.” Actually what I think it is, is it’s time, you have to just prove it to yourself that you’re going to continue to be okay. And I think when that shift happens, it’s like, “Oh, okay. Okay. You know what, it’s going to be fine.” On the night that the plumber was here, I’m looking at my look at my watch and like, “I cannot believe this.” I was like, “But you know what, who cares? It’s okay.”
Hannah Vanderpool:
I think the one thing that still does get me is, if I wake up in the night, and I feel anxiety, which is rare, it’s actually becoming extremely rare. But if it does happen, that is still the thing that I’m like, “I have to actively practice self talk.” Literally like, “It’s okay, everyone wakes up in the night. That’s normal. I can lay here if it feels good. And if it doesn’t, I can get up.” I have to sometimes. It’s like Sesame Street, I have to tell myself this little thing. It happened the night before last, as I said, but I think the issue was, our son was like, “I don’t feel good. And I can’t taste.” And I was like, “uhhhhhhhh!”.
Hannah Vanderpool:
I wasn’t worried for his, really, he’s fine. But I just was more like, “Oh, life has changed again, we cannot go out. Oh my gosh, for 14 days.” So I think that I still am in that fragile state where sometimes I have to practice this self talk. But in general, I just do care about sleep less.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. And I think you make a good point there that, we’re always going to experience temporary sleep disruption from time to time, it’s just a normal part of life. And I think it would be more unusual not to experience sleep disruption if we’re concerned that our child, for example, may have COVID. I think it would be more unusual to sleep well after receiving such news or worrying about that. But the beauty of it, the change now is that you have a plan in place, like you just touched upon. You know that if you wake during the night, you can just remind yourself that, “Look, waking during the night is normal.” And you know that if being a bed doesn’t feel good, you’ve got something else to do instead.
Martin Reed:
And I think that it really comes down to just controlling what we can control. These techniques, they’re not intended to convince us, you should not care about sleep, just pretend you don’t care about sleep, because sleep is important. But we do sleep even people with chronic insomnia, we do sleep, just typically less sleep than we want to get. And our body will always give us at the very least the bare minimum amount of sleep we need. So really, our intention is just to direct our attention towards things that we can control like exploring, evaluating the thoughts about sleep that might not be accurate, but generate a lot of worry and sleep disruption.
Martin Reed:
If we can lower that arousal system, while building the sleep drive, strengthening the body clock, we’re going to create better conditions for sleep to occur. So I think, really the summary is to just put our effort and attention into controlling things or exerting effort constructively on things that we can control where it’s worth putting the effort in, and put it into sleep directly itself isn’t helpful because we cannot control sleep.
Hannah Vanderpool:
Right. One of the most helpful things I think that I clung to, that you said is the body … Well I’ve said it to myself, the body will always give the bare minimum of what you need. It will always at least do that. It made sense to me, it clicked, I told myself that a million times, I will just say, also to listeners, just briefly, you don’t have to wait to start this course, when you feel like you’ve got just the ideal space and time to do it. I started a new job coinciding with starting this course. I had a total life change. And so, that could have produced a lot of anxiety like, “Well, I have to get up and I’ve got all the stuff to do. And I’m balancing home life and also I’m trying to … But actually what it did is, it allowed me to be distracted in the day from thinking about sleep, and then just working the plan at night.
Hannah Vanderpool:
And yes, there were some times where I’m like, especially in the late afternoon or early evening, if I tried to watch TV while I was doing sleep restriction. My kids would be like, “Mom, mom, you’re falling asleep.” So I did have some moments like that. But what I want to say to anybody is, you can actually do this at any time. I mean, tomorrow is a good time to start it, today. You can do it at any time, you don’t have to wait for the perfect time. Like when you have a break or something like that. You really can do this and go on with normal life.
Martin Reed:
Yeah. I think with anything, it’s always hard to find that perfect time, isn’t it?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Yeah.
Martin Reed:
What springs to my mind is having children. When should we have children? There’s never a perfect time to have children.
Hannah Vanderpool:
That’s true.
Martin Reed:
If that’s your plan, then you’ll probably never end up having children. But yeah, that’s what sprung to my mind when you mentioned that is, there is never a perfect time. So sooner rather than later is often the best approach, if that’s something that you want to do. And so, in terms of insomnia, or if you’re keen to start implementing techniques to improve sleep, then why wait, you’ve probably tried a million things already that haven’t proven to be helpful, why not try something else that will probably be more difficult, more challenging, but is proven to get results.
Martin Reed:
But anyway, Hannah, I know I’ve taken a lot of your time. And I really appreciate you coming on and giving up your time to talk about your transformation, I like to call it, it is a transformation. But I always like to end with the same question in all of these episodes. So I’d like to ask it to you as well, so as one last question. If someone with chronic insomnia is listening, and feels as though they’ve tried everything, that they are beyond help, and that they can’t do anything to improve their sleep, what would you tell them?
Hannah Vanderpool:
Well, I would tell them that you really can. I have three kids, we’re living through a pandemic, there’s all kinds of stuff going on, stress levels are high, my hormones are starting to shift, there are all of these reasons why I shouldn’t be able to experience much improvement. My anxiety had reached such a level before I started this, that I was on medication. And we were even possibly talking about getting on an anti anxiety med, which some people legitimately need, but in hindsight, I realize would have created more problems for me than solving them, because my anxiety was related to sleep.
Hannah Vanderpool:
So I say all that to say, if I can experience improvement, you can too. It is absolutely possible. And it’s a gift you should give yourself. It might be harder in the short term, but almost everything good and worth it is hard in the short term for long term gain.
Martin Reed:
That’s great. I think that’s a fantastic note to end on. So thank you again, Hannah for coming on and sharing your time and sharing your experience and your transformation.
Hannah Vanderpool:
It was my pleasure. Thank you.
Martin Reed:
Thanks for listening to The Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to implement evidence-based cognitive and behavioral techniques to improve your sleep but think you might need some additional support and guidance, I would love to help. There are two ways we can work together. First, you can get my online coaching course. This is the most popular option. My course combines sleep education with individualized coaching and is guaranteed to improve your sleep. You will learn new ways of thinking about sleep and implement better sleep habits over a period of eight weeks. This gives you time to build sleep confidence and notice results without feeling overwhelmed. You can get the course and start right now at insomniacoach.com/online.
Martin Reed:
I also offer a phone coaching package where we start with a one hour call. This can be voice only or video, your choice, and we come up with an initial two-week plan that will have you implementing cognitive and behavioral techniques that will lead to long term improvements in your sleep. You get unlimited email-based support and guidance for two weeks after the call along with a half-hour follow-up call at the end of the two weeks. You can book the phone coaching package at insomniacoach.com/phone.
Martin Reed:
I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you can sleep.
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I want you to be the next insomnia success story I share! If you're ready to stop struggling with sleep and get your life back from insomnia, you can start my insomnia coaching course at insomniacoach.com.
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1 hr 18 min
January 15, 2021 How Susie stopped sleep from controlling her life, regained trust in her natural ability to sleep, and learned to love her bedroom (#25)
Susie struggled with insomnia for a long time, but it wasn't until her sleeping pills stopped working while on vacation that she realized she had to take action. In this episode, Susie shares how she overcame her anxiety around sleep and transformed her relationship with it.
Through her efforts to address the thoughts and behaviors that perpetuated her sleep disruption, Susie began to love her bedroom and sleep again. She gained confidence in her natural ability to sleep and refused to give up. Today, Susie's relationship with sleep is positive and healthy, and she serves as an inspiration to others who struggle with insomnia.
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November 25, 2020 How Michelle got to the root cause of her insomnia and improved her sleep after 15 years of unhelpful experiments, research, and sleep efforts (#24)
Michelle spent 15 years researching sleep and trying different things to overcome her insomnia. However, the more she tried to control her sleep, the more it controlled her. Eventually, she realized that the sleep-related thoughts and behaviors she developed were only making the problem worse.
In this episode, Michelle shares the techniques that helped her overcome insomnia, including modifying behavioral techniques like sleep restriction and stimulus control to better suit her needs. She also talks about the difficulties she faced when changing her sleep habits, as well as the long-term benefits of abandoning all efforts to control sleep.
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58 min