Mental Work

Bron is joined by Krasi Kirova (Clinical psychologist) to chat about post-separation abuse. Krasi explains how coercive control can continue through mediation, property settlement, and family court, why abusers can appear more credible than the people they harm, and how to support clients in therapy after they’ve separated.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Why coercive control predicts post-separation abuse, and why it takes an average of seven attempts to leave
👉🏻 Legal systems abuse
👉 Betrayal blindness, self-gaslighting and building clarity without pushing clients too fast
👉🏿 When extended stabilisation is appropriate before trauma processing work

Guest: Krasi Kirova, Clinical Psychologist

LINKS

• Krasi's self-paced online course on Recognising Emotional Abuse and Coercive Control
• Krasi’s previous Mental Work episode on identifying coercive control in individuals and couples therapy
• Krasi’s website, including free professional resources and her handout on supporting clients experiencing post-separation abuse
• Jess Hill, See What You Made Me Do (book)
• Ellen Reeves and colleagues’ paper on legal systems abuse
• Emma Katz’s Substack
• The Divorce Course Podcast

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health with an early-career focus. Hosted by Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Marie Vakakis (Mental Health Social Worker, Couple and Family Therapist) to unpack how to work with affairs and betrayal in therapy. Using hypothetical cases, Marie walks through what to do when an individual client discloses an affair, and how to support couples after an affair is discovered.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Affairs as “turning away” from a relationship, and how to discuss affairs in individual therapy without judgement or shame
👉🏻 The Gottman Therapy model of "Atone, Attune, Attach" for affair recovery
👉 What meaningful atonement looks like, including holding space for triggers months or years later
👉🏿 Handling disagreements about whether cheating has happened using structured conversations

This is a complex topic for early and later-career mental health workers alike, and Marie takes us through it with her characteristic calm expertise. Thanks Marie! 😊

Guest: Marie Vakakis, Accredited Mental Health Social Worker and Couple and Family Therapist

LINKS

• Marie’s masterclass on working with affairs, betrayal, and trust ruptures in couples therapy
• Supervision with Marie
• The State of Affairs: Rethinking Infidelity by Esther Perel
• Healing the Trauma of Infidelity by William M. Bumberry
• Gottman Treating Affairs and Trauma training
• This Complex Life podcast and Inside Social Work podcast
• Previous Mental Work episodes with Marie

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Matthew Jackson (Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor) to unpack why so many psychologists can be deeply compassionate towards clients but harshly critical towards themselves. Matt reflects openly on how his upbringing, attachment and his own therapy have shaped his relationship with self-compassion, and Bron discusses how she is is at the start of her own self-compassion journey. They explore how psychology training often teaches us to turn compassion outward, but not so much inward.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Paul Gilbert’s definition of compassion, and why self-compassion is relationship-based rather than evaluation-based
👉🏻 Tall poppy syndrome and whether psychologists are allowed to feel proud of their work
👉 Feeling “compassioned out” and building tiny moments of self-kindness between sessions
👉🏿 Five-second self-compassion phrases, boundaries, and giving yourself permission to be imperfect at your work

Guest: Matthew Jackson, Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor

LINKS

• Matt (as Matilda Mercury) on Instagram
• Self-compassion with Dr Kristin Neff
• Article by Paul Gilbert (2014), "The origins and nature of compassion focused therapy"

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Claire Trevitt (Psychologist) to explore the Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual (PDM), which is one diagnostic alternative to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (the DSM). Claire explains how the PDM uses the same diagnostic categories as the DSM but adds depth around personality and subjective experience, which can give mental health workers a different perspectives on their clients' experiences.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Personality styles versus personality disorders, and the PDM’s spectrum
👉🏻 Using the PDM to guide treatment planning
👉 How the PDM names expected countertransference responses, including for clients presenting with post-traumatic stress disorder and borderline personality disorder
👉🏿 Practical first steps for early-career clinicians who want to access and use the PDM

Guest: Claire Trevitt, Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor

LINKS

• Psychodynamic Diagnostic Manual, Third Edition (PDM-3), edited by Vittorio Lingiardi and Nancy McWilliams
• Tip: check whether your AAPi or APS membership gives you library access to the PDM
• The Growing Therapist (Claire’s website)
• The Growing Therapist Podcast

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Fiona Mann (Clinical Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor) to chat about balancing parenting young children with building a career in psychology. Fiona shares how she fell pregnant halfway through her clinical Masters, worked through her registrar program with twins on the way, and now works in a NICU (Neonatal Intensive Care Unit), plus what she has learnt about flexibility, boundaries and redefining success.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Going through Masters, placements and registrar training with young children
👉🏻 Overwhelm, sick kids and blurred boundaries between work and home
👉 Answering a listener question about hours, childcare and not feeling alone
👉🏿 Managing NICU work while parenting

Thank you for generously sharing your experiences Fiona, it was a pleasure to have you on! 😊✨

Guest: Fiona Mann, Clinical Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor

LINKS

• Email Fiona (she is open to supervision enquiries or an email exchange about this topic)!

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Jordan Turner (Educational and Developmental Psychologist) to unpack how to work well with clients who have ADHD. Both are ADHDers themselves and passionate about delivering neurodiversity-affirming, helpful therapy for ADHD clients.

They chat about:
👉🏽 What ADHD is, why the DSM criteria only tell part of the story, and where executive functioning fits
👉🏻 Assessment pathways, and how to tell ADHD apart from anxiety and depression
👉 The core principles of neurodiversity-affirming practice
👉🏿 Practical in-session tips, plus CBT, ACT and DBT approaches that may resonate and be helpful for ADHDers

Guest: Jordan Turner - Educational and Developmental Psychologist

LINKS

• Mental Work episode: What's it like being a neurodivergent therapist? (with Jordan Turner)
• Smart but Scattered book series, by Peg Dawson and Richard Guare
• The Neurodivergent Friendly Workbook of DBT Skills, by Sonny Jane Wise

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Matthew Jackson (Psychologist) to unpack psychologist myths and facts, quickfire style. Bron presents the myths (which Matthew has not heard before!) and Matthew weighs in, from whether therapists secretly judge clients to whether you can only take clients as far as you've gone yourself.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Judging clients and having favourite clients
👉🏻 Does charging a fee for therapy mean you don't care?
👉 Feeling lost in sessions and whether the therapeutic relationship is enough
👉🏿 Do you need to be smarter than your clients to do good therapy?

Guest: Matthew Jackson, Psychologist and Board-Approved Supervisor

LINKS

• Matt's Insta for Matilda Mercury

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Marie Vakakis (Mental Health Social Worker and couples therapist) to chat about working with couples who stonewall, withdraw, and shut down. Marie unpacks the Gottman Method's "Four Horsemen" and shares exactly what to say and do when a couple's session starts to unravel. I found the episode really helpful for individual work, too!

They chat about:
👉🏽 The Four Horsemen: Criticism, Defensiveness, Contempt and Stonewalling
👉🏻 The specific antidotes to each pattern, including the "I feel, when, I need" formula
👉 How to recognise nervous system overwhelm and pause a session safely
👉🏿 Common mistakes early-career clinicians make starting out in couples work

Guest: Marie Vakakis, Accredited mental health social worker and couples therapist

LINKS

• Marie's practice - The Therapy Hub
• Marie's podcast - Inside Social Work podcast
• Marie's other podcast - This Complex Life podcast
• Marie's website
• Marie on LinkedIn
• The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by John Gottman
• Fight Right by John and Julie Gottman
• Marie's previous Mental Work episode on couples work

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Krasi Kirova (Clinical Psychologist) to chat about identifying coercive control in the therapy room. Krasi shares her own '3Ds' framework, built from years of clinical work, to help clinicians name abuse that doesn't always look obvious.

They chat about:
👉🏽 Krasi's '3Ds' framework: Disrespect, Disempowerment and Distortion
👉🏻 Why coercive control is so often missed by psychologists
👉 The concept of "perspecticide" and how abusers distort reality
👉🏿 Practical questions to ask clients who might be experiencing it

Guest: Krasi Kirova, Clinical psychologist

LINKS

• Learn more with Krasi! She has an online course for psychologists & mental health practitioners on recognising coercive control, available here.
• Krasi's website
• DV Alert training - Free training on domestic abuse in Australia
• Safe and Equal (formerly Domestic Violence Resource Centre Victoria)
• Safe and Together Institute
• See What You Made Me Do by Jess Hill - Highly recommended book!
• Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft
• Laura Richards - Resources including the Domestic Abuse, Stalking and Honour Based Violence (DASH 2009-2025) Risk Identification, Assessment and Management Model
• Emma Katz's Substack on decoding coercive control
• Ramani Durvasula

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bron is joined by Mish Kumar-Jonson (Mental Health Social Worker and Chair of the Iceberg Foundation) about bringing anti-oppressive and anti-colonial practice into therapy. Mish shares how their own experience of migration and community shaped a lifelong commitment to supporting LGBTIQASBP+, neurodivergent, and BIPOC communities, and supporting mental health practitioners to unlearn colonial norms in their work.

They chat about:
👉🏽 How pathologising language and power imbalances show up in everyday therapy
👉🏻 Why "neutral" therapy is never actually neutral
👉 Practical ways to name structural causes of distress with clients
👉🏿 How to sustain joy and community support while doing this work long term

Guest: Mish Kumar-Jonson, Mental Health Social Worker and EMDR Consultant

LINKS

• Iceberg Foundation
• Mish's practice: Niram EMDR and Trauma Counselling
• Mish on LinkedIn
• Mish on Instagram

THE END BITS

Mental Work is the podcast for psychologists about the realities of working in mental health, with an early-career focus. Hosted by psychologist/researcher Dr Bronwyn Milkins.

Support the show by buying me a virtual coffee ☕🍵

Have a question, episode idea or just want to say hi? DM Bron on Instagram, leave a comment on the Spotify episode, or email [email protected]

Apply to be a guest / YouTube (with captions & transcript) / Website

CREDITS

Producer: Michael English

Music: Home

Commitment: Mental Work believes in an inclusive and diverse mental health workforce. We honour the strength, resilience, and invaluable contributions of mental health workers with lived experiences of mental illness, disability, neurodivergence, LGBTIQA+ identities, and diverse culture and language. We recognise our First Nations colleagues as Traditional Custodians of the land and pay respect to Elders past, present, and emerging. Mental Work is recorded on unceded Whadjuk Noongar boodja.

Disclaimer: Mental Work provides informational content. Mental Work is not a psychological service and being a listener or guest does not establish a therapeutic relationship. Content should not be considered a replacement for professional consultation or therapy. All views expressed are personal, subject to change, and do not represent those of any affiliated employer, service, or organisation past or present. Efforts are made to ensure accuracy, but opinions may not always align with fact. Listeners are encouraged to thoughtfully assess the information presented and report any inaccuracies or concerns via email. Further information can be found here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.