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In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Dr. Jaban Moore to discuss his perspective on mold exposure, the impact indoor environments have on health, and how this can all relate back to chronic illness and conditions. He shares his wealth of knowledge and experience to highlight how prevalent this issue is and what needs to be done to solve this health crisis.

In this episode, they dive into:

0:30: Dr. Jaban Moore describes how prominent mold exposure and chronic illness are and the importance of shining a light on this issue. He goes through his experience treating patients and how it can relate to autoimmune conditions such as Lyme disease and PANS/PANDAS. As he explains, it has a huge impact on the immune system, giving it its power. 

3:00: Dr. Jaban Moore explains some of the routes that exposure and toxins in the body take to impact the body and the role inflammation plays. 

5:15: Dr. Jaban Moore shares his perspective on treating patients who have been to doctor after doctor but no one could shine a light on why they’re suffering from chronic illness. The narrative is slowly starting to change, highlighting the need to pay attention to this issue, but it’s got a way to go before people are more aware. As he said, if we can educate the population, this issue will be at the forefront of the conversation. 

10:15: Dr. Jaban Moore discusses root causes, different types of medicine, and the importance of looking at everyone's unique situation. "Start with the why to understand what’s actually causing the problems." Sometimes, it takes years for toxins to build up in the body and begin triggering symptoms, and even then, people will brush off many of their issues. With how little attention is given to indoor mold growth, indoor environments are often the last place that people look to as a problem. He explains several instances where he’s seen this in his clinic. 

16:30: Dr. Jaban Moore details his personal experience with Lyme and treating patients with this condition over the years. He also describes his journey with mold exposure and how it impacted his life. 

23:00: Dr. Jaban Moore describes the impact our indoor environments have on health and the contaminants that can exist within them. To make it even more tricky, every person can handle exposure levels differently, and this changes over time. "Your body has a threshold for its ability to detox. All of ours are different. You need to figure out what yours is.

28:00: Dr. Jaban Moore explains the canary in the coal mine situation and how this relates to mold exposure. He also goes through his experience of witnessing this with clients that he has treated.  

32:30: Dr. Jaban Moore goes through the issue of people not wanting to deal with all of these issues with mold. As he said, there needs to be a new standard for health and pushing through the norm of chronic illness. "The standard should be to live well into your 80’s."

37:00: Dr. Jaban Moore lists things people can do to take back control of their health. 

Learn more about Dr. Jaban Moore at:

https://drjabanmoore.com/

Instagram: @drjabanmoore

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In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Dr. Kenneth Bock to discuss his wealth of experience helping patients heal from chronic conditions and environmental exposures like mold.

As a leader in integrative medicine, Dr. Bock has accumulated over 35 years of experience diagnosing the root cause of chronic illnesses and restoring balance to his patients’ immune systems. He founded Bock Integrative Medicine in response to the increasing need for board-certified medical providers who take a unique "whole body" approach to diagnose and treat chronic illness.

After graduating Summa Cum Laude from the State University of New York at Buffalo in 1973, he went on to earn his M.D. with Honor from the University of Rochester School of Medicine in 1979. He is board-certified in Family Medicine, a Certified Nutrition Specialist, and a Fellow of the American Academy of Family Practice, the American College of Nutrition, and the American College for Advancement in Medicine, of which he is a former President. Dr. Kenneth Bock is also a faculty member of the Institute for Functional Medicine (IFM).

In this episode, they dive into:
01:00: Dr. Kenneth Bock discusses how large of a role he believes environmental factors play in health and touches on his experiences helping clients with this. While there are many factors that influence how symptoms manifest in our bodies, environments play an important role. He also touches on how mold is a factor in this issue.

6:00: Dr. Bock describes his experience with clients who are in the midst of a perfect storm of problems, and then one final push sends them over the edge. Mold is an example of the final stressor that sends someone into a downward spiral.

7:30: Dr. Bock goes through the importance of getting out of moldy environments. It’s similar to not eating as much sugar when you’re hyperglycemic.

9:20: Dr. Bock discusses the role genetics plays in environmental exposure-related symptoms and the issues he’s seen from doctors only focusing on this one piece.

12:15: Dr. Bock explains what he calls the "immune kettle" and the role it plays in how a person experiences environmental exposures. "Some people do get a stacked deck in terms of genetic predispositions, and they may have to do even more to stay healthy. But the people who think they’re riding free… There’s no such thing as a free lunch."

14:10: Dr. Bock discusses the differences between acute and chronic inflammation and the importance of distinguishing the two. He also details the various health problems inflammation can trigger, both physical and mental. People think all inflammation is bad, and it’s really not that way. Acute inflammation has a purpose. However, if it’s overwhelming inflammation or chronic persistent inflammation, those are the problems.

19:50: Dr. Kenneth Bock goes through the importance of looking at the entire picture because, "If you don’t look, you won’t see. If you don’t listen, you won’t hear."

23:30: Dr. Kenneth Bock details the importance of both science and intuition while treating a patient. As he said, the medical world has lost the art of making diagnoses and treatment plans.

26:00: Dr. Kenneth Bock discusses why he continues to do his job and why he’s so passionate about what he does. He also details the books he’s written over the years and why he wrote them in the first place.

32: Dr. Kenneth Bock explains the importance of both taking nutrients and making sure you’re taking the correct dosage. For those dealing with environmental exposures, this is even more important.

To learn more about Dr. Kenneth Bock at:
https://www.bockintegrative.com/
https://www.facebook.com/kennethbockmd/
https://www.amazon.com/Kenneth-Bock/e/B001IGNYJ4%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

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In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Dr. Kasey Holland to discuss her experience treating patients who are suffering from mold illness and toxic indoor environments. She details how interconnected this issue can be with other conditions such as the Epstein-Barr virus and how many may be suffering, but are normalizing their chronic conditions.

Dr. Kasey Holland, ND is a Naturopathic Doctor. She chose to go into Naturopathic medicine because she believes that health is made up of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual components. She is passionately driven to provide her clients with a completely holistic approach to their health concerns, no matter how simple or complex they may be. Dr. Holland’s goal for each client is to uncover the root cause of their ailments. She understands that the key to achieving optimal wellness and being free of chronic disease is multi-dimensional and different for each individual. Part of this comes from her own experience with health obstacles.

In this episode, they dive into:

0:30: Dr. Kasey Holland discusses how big of a piece external toxins play in health and wellness and the experiences she’s had helping clients. Water-damaged homes in particular are posing a serious health risk, she said.

2:00: Dr. Kasey Holland details her thoughts on how indoor contaminants like mold influence the Epstein-Barr virus and why they play such a large role. Maintaining a healthy environment is a key component of healing, she said.

5:30: Dr. Kasey Holland highlights how great the variation can be in those who experience adverse health reactions to exposure and the extent to which it impacts their lives.

8:00: Dr. Kasey Holland discusses how some individuals may not be able to notice a vast influence on their bodies from exposure, but that doesn’t mean it doesn't have an effect. 

11:45: Dr. Kasey Holland details her career in treating individuals with mold illness and what led her to this route of treatment.

16:00: Dr. Kasey Holland discusses the rising prevalence of mold growth in brand new homes and a few reasons why this is occurring.

27:00: Dr. Kasey Holland goes through her process of helping clients heal from exposure and what people should look for if they suspect a problem. As she says, every individual is different, so she assesses where their comfort levels are and their acceptance of mold as a root cause, and then forms a plan around this. 

33:00: Dr. Kasey Holland explains the importance of the doctor-patient relationship and how this can impact helping individuals heal. Having data and testing options available can help bridge the gap for those who are struggling with exposure, particularly those who are sensitive.

40:00: Dr. Kasey Holland explains why people should have high standards for mold. Not only will you save time and money, but you will also save your health as well. 

Make sure to subscribe to The Mold Medic Channel so you never miss an episode of Mold Docs. 

To learn more about Dr. Kasey Holland at:

https://drkaseyholland.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drkaseyholland/

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A Sacred Responsibility 

In this episode, Micahel Rubino sits down with Dr. Will Cole, IFMCP, DNM, DC, leading functional-medicine expert, author, advocate, and podcast host. Dr. Will dives into the comprehensive process needed to heal individuals from toxicity, the prevalence of this health epidemic in society, and the importance of pushing back against the norm and fighting for one's health.

Dr. Will Cole is a leading functional-medicine expert who consults people around the world via webcam, having started one of the first functional medicine telehealth centers in the world. Named one of the top 50 functional and integrative doctors in the nation, Cole specializes in clinically investigating underlying factors of chronic disease and customizing a functional medicine approach for thyroid issues, autoimmune conditions, hormonal imbalances, digestive disorders, and brain problems.

He is also the host of the popular The Art of Being Well podcast and bestselling author of Ketotarian, The Inflammation Spectrum, and the New York Times bestseller Intuitive Fasting.

Dr. Will Cole, senior clinic director, is uniquely skilled and experienced at finding the root physiological, biochemical, and hormonal causes underlying many diseases. He has broken free from the limiting approach of “standard care,” which most often calls upon drugs and hormones as a first defense against these diseases without a real inspection as to the root underlying causes and contributing factors to each individual’s presenting complaints.

Dr. Cole uses breakthrough diagnostic testing and analysis that’s rarely done in conventional settings to uncover the hidden causes of why people feel the way they feel. He also takes great pride in delivering personalized healthcare treatment to patients as well as providing an environment that supports and inspires patients to reverse their poor health.

“It's frustrating, but to really hold space for these people that have gone through hell is a sacred responsibility for me. I can't change what they went through, but they can change their present and the future.”

To learn more about Dr. Will Cole:

https://drwillcole.com/

Instagram: @drwillcole

TikTok: @drwillcole

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In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Dr. Tania Dempsey, an expert in chronic disease, autoimmune disorders, and mast cell activation syndrome. Dr. Tania goes into detail about mast cell activation syndrome and the effects of living in a toxic world.

Dr. Dempsey is sought after internationally for her knowledge of chronic immune dysregulation and has attracted patients from Israel, England, Thailand, and France. Dr. Dempsey uses integrative medicine to get to the root cause(s) of the patient's illness. Her purpose is to understand why people get sick and to help patients understand their bodies and why they fail when they do.

Dr. Dempsey received her MD from The Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and her BS degree from Cornell University. She completed her residency at NYU Medical Center/Bellevue Hospital and then served as an attending physician at a large multi-specialty medical practice in White Plains, NY, before opening Armonk Integrative Medicine. Dr. Dempsey specializes in autoimmune diseases, MCAS, and chronic illness.

In this episode, they dive into:

0:45: Dr. Tania discusses mold, how large of an issue exposure is for health, and the complexity of why it’s an increasingly common issue. Many people, she says, don’t take this indoor contaminant seriously and have heard a long list of misinformation.

10:00: Dr. Tania lists the symptoms and reactions that can develop in those experiencing mast cell activation syndrome. As she explains, this condition is systemic and can affect various places in the body and manifest in different ways. 

15:00: Dr. Tania touches on the interconnection between mold exposure and the long list of other exposures, conditions, and factors that play a role in how the body reacts and what symptoms can develop. 

20:00: Dr. Tania explains the issues she’s seen with remediation protocols and the failed projects she’s witnessed for her clients. Dr. Tania herself experienced a mold issue and multiple failed remediations for her own home. 

25:30: Dr. Tania discusses the influence bacteria have as well as mold exposure and mast cell activation syndrome. Bacteria are often found alongside indoor mold growth and can play a role in how someone’s body responds to the toxic environment. 

36:00: Dr. Tania goes through what individuals should do if they have mast cell activation syndrome and/or mold exposure and the treatment protocols they should expect.

Make sure to subscribe to The Mold Medic Channel so you never miss an episode of Mold Docs. 

To learn more about Dr. Tania Dempsey:

Instagram: @drtaniadempseymd

https://www.drtaniadempsey.com/

https://aimcenterpm.com/dr-tania-dempsey/

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The Root of the Problem

Today’s guest is Sarah Tate, a school teacher, toxic mold warrior, and exposure survivor. Sarah’s experience with mold exposure has been a long and painful journey as she continually suffered through symptoms that no one could find the root of the problem for. As time went on, she began to fear that the chronic pain and health issues would be the new normal in her life and that relief would never come.

Today’s Talk:
In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Sarah Tate to discuss her difficult and debilitating experience with mold toxicity. Her long-time suffering shows how important it is to create more awareness for this indoor contaminant so that the root of the problem can be unearthed much sooner and chronic symptoms due to exposure don’t continue on much longer than they should.

With a family history of migraines, Sarah initially thought that her onset of pain was just an unavoidable fact of life that she would need to receive treatment for. As time went on, she tried a long list of pain-relief techniques, but nothing seemed to work. Eventually, her discomfort was so intense that it began to affect her first teaching job in Chicago, making it nearly impossible to just get through a normal day.

She attempted to find answers and visited doctor after doctor, even going to a treatment facility for two weeks, but no one could pinpoint why her pain was getting worse and other symptoms like drastic weight loss were occurring. After moving to her home state of Louisiana and struggling to manage the symptoms and emotional trauma while teaching during the COVID-19 pandemic, she and her family were steered to a functional medicine facility in Chicago. Her new team of medical professionals instantly pointed her to mold toxicity, an answer which was then supported with testing.

Since her diagnosis, Sarah has struggled to find a detox protocol that works for her body. She and her practitioner team have been working tirelessly to find a balance of gently getting her body to detox the toxins without moving too fast and causing her even more pain. It’s been an emotional and distressing journey for Sarah and her family, filled with anxiety and dark thoughts, but she’s continuing to push on and has faith that healthier, pain-free days are on the horizon. She’s using her journey as a learning experience to prioritize herself and her health as well as take everything one day at a time.

https://www.themoldmedic.com/
https://www.allamericanrestoration.com/

You can chat more with Sarah Tate at:
@saraht8

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In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Dr. Neil Nathan, M.D., researcher, complex medical problem-solver and healer (particularly for mold toxicity), and author.

Neil Nathan, MD, has been practicing medicine for almost five decades. He has been Board Certified in Family Practice and Pain Management and is a Founding Diplomate of the American Board of Integrative Holistic Medicine and a Founding Diplomate of ISEAI. He has written several books, including Healing is Possible: New Hope for Chronic Fatigue, Fibromyalgia, Persistent Pain, and Other Chronic Illnesses and On Hope and Healing: For Those Who Have Fallen Through the Medical Cracks. He has hosted an internationally syndicated radio program/podcast on Voice America called The Cutting Edge of Health and Wellness Today.

He has been working to bring awareness that mold toxicity is a major contributing factor for patients with chronic illness and lectures internationally on this subject, which led to the publication of several books, including Mold and Mycotoxins: Current Evaluation and Treatment, and his most recent book, Toxic: Heal Your Body from Mold Toxicity, Lyme Disease, Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, and Chronic Environmental Illness.

In this episode, they dive into:

1:00: Dr. Nathan discusses what led him to write his first book, Toxic. Back in the 80s, he began seeing an increasing number of fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue cases, but because the medical world was unfamiliar with this condition, patients were sent to therapy. From there, he started connecting the dots to conditions such as mold toxicity and started helping his clients, even though it wasn’t the "norm" in the medical world. From there, his journey into mold and understanding how it affects the body took off. This includes studying with Dr. Shoemaker.
6:00: Dr. Nathan goes through his other books and what sparked his desire to keep releasing information about mold, healing, and treatments.
9:30: Dr. Nathan discusses his idea of how many individuals are suffering from mold exposure, his experience in treatment, and the common symptoms he’s seen. He goes over mold allergy and mold toxicity as well as the difference between the two. He discusses the influence of genetics and the various other components that result in adverse health reactions.
14:00: Dr. Nathan addresses the misconception that since mold exists in nature, it’s no problem for our health. He also discusses mycotoxins, a toxic byproduct of some mold species.
16:30: Dr. Nathan discusses why he agrees to disagree with Dr. Shoemaker on the idea that it’s not mold growth in a home that’s causing health issues, but actinomyces. Michael discusses his related experience and opinions as well.
21:45: Dr. Nathan discusses his new book, Energetic Diagnosis, and the motivation behind writing it.
24:00: Dr. Nathan discusses his short ebook, Mold and Mycotoxins, and its recent rewrite.
34:45: Dr. Nathan discusses his experience with a urine analysis being inconclusive even though the individual is suffering from toxicity and delves into the explanations behind it.
37:00: Dr. Nathan explains how crucial remediation and mold avoidance are in helping patients heal from exposure. You can get better, but you can’t heal in the environment that’s making you ill.
46:30: Dr. Nathan discusses the need for more studies, technology, and research funding to help better understand mold exposure and the impact it has on health.
53:00: Dr. Nathan explains the importance of being patient while healing from mold toxicity because it can take years. But, it is treatable.

To Learn More About Dr. Neil Nathan:
https://neilnathanmd.com/
https://www.amazon.com/Neil-Nathan/e/B004IW6A5A%3Fref=dbs_a_mng_rwt_scns_share

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Today’s guest is Eve Elenhorn, Integrative Health Practitioner, Personal Trainer, mold survivor, awareness advocate, and expectant mother. Eve’s discovery of mold began after experiencing a devastating miscarriage that spurred her to look deeper into why she continued to experience chronic health issues. From Hashimoto’s and the Epstein-Barr Virus to a long list of gastrointestinal and thyroid issues, she believed that something else must be playing a role in her body; she just had to figure out a method for connecting the dots. 

Her search for answers introduced her to the world of functional medicine. Teaming up with a functional medicine doctor and a naturopath, they ran extensive testing and determined that her problem was mold. From there, she began the long battle of learning more about this indoor contaminant, figuring out how to get rid of it from her home, dealing with the pushback on whether or not indoor mold growth is a problem, and the million and one other difficulties that often surround this event. 

Still, Eve never gave up. She’s now well on her way to healing and is expecting a child in the next few months. Using her experience, she’s now dedicated to helping others find the root cause of their health issues and bringing more awareness to the harmful effects of mold exposure. 

Today’s Talk:

In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Eve Elenhorn to discuss her harrowing battle with mold exposure. Her journey highlights how important it is to dive deep into finding the root cause of symptoms instead of taking a pill to solve the problem, the far-reaching health damage that mold exposure can cause, and the importance of trusting your instincts. 

Throughout her life, Eve dealt with a list of health issues and met with an even longer list of doctors in an attempt to handle the onslaught of symptoms. It wasn’t until she experienced a devasting miscarriage that she began connecting the dots and attempting to figure out if an underlying root cause must be at play. Her push for answers is what led her to discover an alternative health route: functional and integrative medicine. 

After visiting with a functional medicine doctor and a naturopath who ran a long series of tests, they discovered mold and mycotoxins all throughout her body. The discovery of these toxins is what sparked her deep dive into understanding more about this indoor contaminant and how it can impact health. As it turns out, Eve had been living in mold, which led to the toxic buildup within her body. 

While she now had the answers she needed, she began her healing journey while living in a toxic environment and began working to convince her husband and family to get on board with understanding the impact mold can have on health and the importance of creating a safe indoor space. After finding the mold in the home and becoming pregnant, they moved out of the house so that it could be remediated, and she’s now living in an apartment and working on ensuring her body is healthy and in balance. 

"I don't like to look at things as a burden. I hear other people say all the time that they're exhausted from trying to fix things and things not working. And I'm like, that’s not the right mindset to have. I look at it as my baby's coming. It's gonna be a fresh start. I'm gonna have a new house. They say in the Jewish tradition that when babies come, they give you a blessing. So I kind of look at it from that perspective, that this is all a blessing that I can start my life over."

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In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Dr. Jess, a certified Gerson practitioner, functional medicine leader, and awareness advocate. Dr. Jess explains how she entered the world of mold and began helping people detox their bodies after exposure to this indoor contaminant. She discusses her process of figuring out if someone is suffering from mold exposure, detox strategies, and the new app that she established to help even more people on their healing journey. 

Dr. Jess is a former hospitalist, internal medicine-based medical doctor, and certified Gerson Practitioner. She is an expert in the areas of stealth infections, environmental toxicity, regenerative medicine, ozone, and cannabis. Her passion lies in uncovering the mystery behind chronic illness, whether that be stealth infections, heavy metals, stress/trauma, or other environmental toxicities. There are real, root-cause answers to why the body might be malfunctioning. 

Trained in medicine at the University of Louisville, Dr. Jess experienced what many of her patients experienced: deep anxiety, hormonal imbalances, and adrenal dysfunction. She sought answers to uncover the root cause of the disease – something she thought she had learned in medical school.

After working as an M.D. in a hospital for 6 years, Dr. Jess realized that she needed to investigate alternatives to today’s modern medical industry, which "treats every ill with a pill." She became trained in Gerson Therapy, functional medicine, nutrigenomics, and ozone in her efforts to help her patients with chronic disease solutions. She is now an expert in the fields of Lyme, parasites, and the health hazards of mold. She is an international keynote speaker with her own former line of Dr. Jess products.

In this episode, they dive into:

1:00 Dr. Jess details how she came up with her trademark quote, "Kill. Bind. Sweat." and how it catapulted her into the limelight of mold treatment. As most people aren’t ready to just jump in and kill all the bad things in their bodies, it’s important to balance prepping them for this process and then slowly adding steps as their bodies are ready. 

2:30 How prevalent is mold toxicity? Dr. Jess talks about just how many patients she’s seen who have suffered from mold exposure thanks to the rising number of water-damaged buildings out there. "It's overwhelming, actually. And so, it's my least favorite part of the job: telling people that they have mold in their homes." She explains her theory of why this phenomenon seems to be occurring more and more. 

6:00 Dr. Jess refers to hypersensitive people as canaries in the coal mine, and explains that being responsive to mold isn’t completely a bad thing; it’s a warning system that something is wrong in that indoor environment. 

8:00 Dr. Jess and Michael discuss the various ways of testing both the home and the body for mold and mycotoxins and how factors such as suppressed immune systems can throw a wrench in testing protocols. 

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Thinking Outside the Box

Today’s guest is Michael Strothers, a mold survivor, and awareness advocate. Michael’s experience with mold began after moving into a new home with his fiance and immediately experiencing unusual symptoms, including alopecia. While medical professionals decided this autoimmune condition was triggered by stress, Michael continued thinking outside the box and searching for an answer that would explain his other related symptoms.

His demand for an explanation eventually led him to discover mold as the root cause. Unfortunately, though, his battle didn’t end there. From improper mold inspections, failed remediation, and struggling to find a safe indoor environment, he went through it all in an effort to get away from this contaminant. Eventually, he would sell the house and spend the next few years building up his own awareness, creating a safe space to live in, and giving his body the chance to heal.

Today’s Talk:
In this episode, Michael Rubino sits down with Michael Strothers to discuss his battle with mold exposure and alopecia. His journey highlights how mold exposure can be the underlying stressor triggering autoimmune conditions such as alopecia, the importance of thinking outside the box, and how difficult it can be to find a safe space to live in once that sensitivity switch has been flipped. Thankfully, his dedication to building more awareness helped get him the tools he needed to eventually find a place to heal.

His personal battle began after moving into a brand new house with his fiance at the time. Within three weeks, he started experiencing significant hair loss, as well as a list of other symptoms. Medical professionals immediately diagnosed him with alopecia triggered by stress from moving and the upcoming wedding. Something continued to bother him with this diagnosis, though, and he kept coming back to how these reactions only popped up after moving into the new home. This sparked a deep dive into thinking outside the box, leading him down a Google rabbit hole that eventually pointed to mold in the home.

Low and behold, a mold inspector found mold in his new house. Unfortunately, what followed was a failed remediation that would lead to him moving out of the home and bouncing back and forth between places as he tried to find a safe space to live. Between issues with rental management not taking the issue seriously and the high number of homes with a current mold problem, Michael witnessed firsthand just how prominent indoor mold growth is. And, the entire time he was fighting this battle, he was continually told by family and medical professionals that mold was not his problem.

For the next three years, he would continue to struggle before realizing that the best option was to purchase a home so that he could be in charge of correctly fixing any issues that popped up. Using his newfound knowledge, he dealt with a few mold issues that occurred in the house, until finally, it was a safe indoor environment. He’s now enjoying the benefits of a healthy home that doesn’t trigger a long list of symptoms. He’s also using his experience to bring more awareness to the effects mold exposure can have and help as many people as he can find answers to their own chronic symptoms.

"I didn't realize how common mold was. I thought the situation was a one in a million situation. Previously to that, I had lived in the house I grew up in and two different apartments. I never had a problem. So I didn't realize that it was the rule as opposed to the exception to the rule, especially when you're going to buy or live in a property that's a little bit older."

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You can chat more with Michael Strothers at:
@strothers.mike