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Gary Williams, of www.garywilliams.photography, has been published in the New York Times, had his photography displayed in galleries around the world, shown on billboards across London, and describes himself as a London-based documentary photographer.
If you visit his website, it’s clear that his primary focus is on weddings and portraits. However, if you explore further, you’ll find he also specialises in commercial, event, and headshot photography.
Recently, he completed a four-year project documenting and celebrating the businesses and people of what he describes as London’s most charming street—Camden Passage—located not far from his home.
In an email, he mentioned that this project has been invaluable for developing his photography skills. It has also boosted his confidence in approaching and networking with people and has helped him attract new clients to his photography business.
Although his business is relatively new and his income modest, his work is outstanding. A project like this could be life-changing for you and your business. I hope you’re as eager to learn more as I am.
In this interview, learn how personal projects can boost your photography business.
Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:
If there's one area of photography that I feel might be under threat from AI it's business and corporate headshots… And I thought, ‘I really want to be a photographer. I want to make my living from this. What else can I do?’ And I thought weddings and events. – Gary Williams
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I found the value of personal projects has been incredible, both in terms of what I've learned, and my development as a photographer, and in my business. – Gary Williams
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What is your big takeaway?
Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Gary shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.
I'm a big believer in doing things for the right reasons. You do it just because you love doing it. You do it for what is it right in front of you, which is the opportunity to to learn and to interact with interesting people and just to be a better photographer. And then if those other things come along, like credits or some work, then that's great. But I actually think if you do it for the right reasons, they usually do come along. – Gary Williams
If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Gary, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.
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iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs
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There are no shortcuts. There are no shortcuts. I wish there were and if somebody knows some tell me and save me a lot of time and trouble. Everything that I've done where I've had any measure of success, it's just work. It’s just doing it. It's just putting the time in. And those people who say, ‘Oh, I can't talk to anyone.’ Yes, she can. Just do it and keep doing it until you get better at it. – Gary Williams
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Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode:
Gary Williams on Instagram
The Little Book of Camden Passage
This is Camden Passage on Instagram
Thank you!
Thanks again for listening and for Gary's sharing his journey so far and uncovering how personal projects can boost your photography business in so many ways.
There's no secret. It's just do it. This is why I did all of those photographs for free and I still do for free this at home projects. I'll be doing it for years. Because the more I do, the better I get. – Gary Williams
That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!
Episode Transcript
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581: Gary Williams – How Personal Projects Can Boost Your Photography Business
Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest has been published in the New York Times, had his photography displayed in galleries around the world, shown in billboards around London, and he labels himself as a London based documentary photographer. Now if you visit his website, it's pretty obvious that he's all about weddings and portraits, and you need to dive a little deeper to see that he also shoots commercial event and headshot photography as well. Recently, he completed a four year project documenting and celebrating the businesses and people of what he says is London's most charming street, Camden Passage, not far from his home. And he told me via email that the project has been invaluable in regard to growing his skills as a photographer, giving him more confidence to approach and network with people and attract new clients to his photography business. Now, although his business is relatively new, and his income, he says, is modest, his work is fantastic, and I believe a project like this could be life changing for you and your business. I hope you're as keen to hear more as I am, I'm talking about Gary Williams, and I am rapt to say that he's with us now. Gary, welcome.
Gary Williams: Wow. That guy sounds really impressive. You just made that guy sound like someone I want to listen to. It's always funny, isn't it? You know, when somebody like reads off your sort of whatever you've done, like, you know, like, could be years of sort of achievements in a few sentences. You think, "Oh, that sounds good". But of course, when you're actually living it day in and day out and sweating and, you know, trudging the streets and stressing about how many Instagram posts you're doing and whether you've got your VAT return done, and all these other stuff, it never, never feels like we're doing any good, does it really, until you sort of somebody else says it in a few sentences.
Andrew Hellmich: It's so true. It's so true. And you know what I actually I go through the same thing myself. I sometimes I question my abilities as a photographer, but I have as my screen saver my best work, what I consider my best work, and it comes up..
Gary Williams: I like that.
Andrew Hellmich: I'm reminded, "Hey, I'm actually all right at this. I'm okay as a photographer".
Gary Williams: You know, I think what we should do, Andrew, is that we should, everybody listening to this, you should invite everybody on as a guest, but just do the intro. Just give them an entry. So something you could charge, you could charge $50 just give them an intro, and everybody's going to go away happy right?. Now, it's true. I think we all need to be reminded sometimes that, you know, we've done some good things throughout all the crap that we have to wade through to get there, right? That's the reality of it, isn't it?
Gary Williams: It is for me.
Andrew Hellmich: It is, it is. And it feels like you're making slow progress, until you stop and look back and I think, "Wow". You know, "We've all come a long way".
Gary Williams: It is, it's hard, you know, to sort of smell the roses, isn't it?, because you just, I mean, for me, I'm always working on the next thing, and, you know, I'm always like, you know, just, I don't trying to, it's a continuous path of self improvement, isn't it? And it's just trying to get better, and it's not, I mean, I do purposely try and avoid looking at too many other photographers online and stuff and comparing myself thinking, "Oh, I'm not doing well enough". You know? I don't really suffer with that so much. I kind of avoid that. But it's just, it's like a personal thing, right? Sometimes we can be our own worst critics, but then that's what helps to drive our work forward and make it better, right? But it's anyway. Hello. Thank you for having me on.
Andrew Hellmich: That's a pleasure, Gary.
Gary Williams: It's so nice to be here.
Andrew Hellmich: Well, you know what I want to do? I want to dive into the business side of things before we get into the book. Because there's a few things that I've read and you told me that I don't know they feel like they're not adding up for me. So the first one is you told me that you haven't been in business that long. How long have you been in business as a photographer?
Gary Williams: Well, I've been in business a long time, but as a photographer, I mean, it's that's a funny thing, isn't it? When do you call yourself a professional photographer, right? Because you're kind of doing it, and then maybe somebody's given you a bit of money, and then you sort of like, what happened for me was actually my first proper paid job as a photographer was only January last year.
Gary Williams: 2023 Yeah, it was very recently. So I'd been a hobbyist for a long time, and during COVID, I sort of started to take it in. In fact, what happened just before COVID, I did a workshop in India with Martin Parr and that was, I mean, he never does workshops, and a friend of mine, were both big fans of his work. And a friend of mine saw this thing on, I think it was on Magnum's Instagram, and we said, "Let's do it", you know, because it was just before COVID. So we had loads of money. Life was good. What could go wrong?. So we just sort of let's we just spent loads of money on this trip, indulgent trip to India. Had a week with Martin Parr, which was amazing. And just really after we came back from that, is when COVID really started, and the world turned upside down. But that sort of refired my enthusiasm. We both bought new cameras. We had to have new cameras, you know, for our workshop, right? Because that's how you take better pictures, is by having a really expensive camera. And so it was really, I carried on, sort of, you know, during COVID, I was doing a lot of online learning, and then at the end of COVID, I started to take my photography a bit more seriously, but actually getting a proper paid job, like a decent, well paid professional job, not through a friend or a friend of a friend, but, you know, based on my own merits, was only January last year, 2023 and that was for a clothing brand. And I guess we'll come on to this in a minute. But that job, and so many of the other jobs that I've done since then have come as a result of the free community projects that I've done, and I've not done those to try and get work. I've done them for other reasons, but, you know, just getting out there, meeting people, people seeing you and seeing you as a professional photographer, and then they need some pictures doing, and you're the obvious person to ask, right? Because you're just there in front of them.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, 100% so give me and the listener a snapshot of the business now. So you're a professional photographer now. Is there other income? Is it all photography?, and what is the revenue?
Gary Williams: So I have, there's three things that I do, because my background is in singing, and I still sing. So I've worked, you know, all over the world as a singer, and most of the work, but most of the income that I had for a long time has been as a singer on cruise ships, as it what we call a guest entertainer. So I'll fly onto a ship. I might only be there for two or three days. I go on do a show, work with the musicians, you know, in the theater that they have on the ship, and then I leave. So I go on do it, and get off. I've done that for a long time and well established at it. And, you know, I get well paid for that. And very well, I've sort of, you know, got one of those deals that you just wouldn't get these days, you know, sort of one of those sort of old legacy deals. And, you know, so I was really kind of made and set up doing that, you know, I was doing other work as well, some of it quite high profile work. But what was wrong for me is that I just got to a time in my life where I was just sick of being away all the time, because I was doing like 30 odd, 30-35, of those cruises a year, and even though they're often for just for a few days, it sort of feels like you're always away and you're always missing family things and stuff. And I just got to a stage where I just didn't want to do that. I got a lovely new boyfriend, and I thought, you know, I just want to be at home more. You know, I always forget how old I am. I think I'm, hang on. I'm 53 now. So, you know, I'm just gonna retire. Don't want to be away all the time, right? And so I thought, what can I do? So I cut down the cruise ship work, and I actually intended to do it. And last year I did only eight, seven cruises, seven cruises. And that seemed kind of nice. I was going to a bit of income. Still keep my hand in, I love the work. But for this actual year, what happened was, because I started booking a load of weddings, my availability for the ships, by the time they came to book me, I had no availability. So I kind of found myself unintentionally retired from cruising. I'm doing one cruise this year because the weddings had sort of taken over and filled my diary. And on the one hand, I was thrilled about that, because I got a lot of weddings quite quickly. But on the other hand, my main and important income stream at this early point in my photography career had pretty much gone. So that's the singing. The other thing that I do is presenting a voice-over work, and I've done that for many years, and actually I kind of stopped doing that, and then COVID came along, and that was the thing that I could do, working from home, right? I could do voiceovers and presenting stuff. And that has continued to, actually, kind of boom actually, so that now is my main income, and those that, and, you know, the singing that I do, because I do some land gigs, I'm happy to do singing gigs here in London, those two things really have been supporting me at this early stage of my photography career. You know, I guess it's important for some of your listeners to hear this. I think because everybody that you have on your podcast, and I love your podcast, I'm a big fan. They're so impressive, and they're throwing around these big numbers, and I listen to them sometimes think, "Okay, yeah", that's "Okay, maybe one day I'll be doing, you know, 100k or this or that or the other, or selling all that, you know, 1000s of dollars worth of wedding albums". But I, you know, right at the beginning of career, sometimes it can be intimidating, right? It's inspiring, but at the same time can be bit intimidating to hear people who are much further down the line doing these crazy, impressive and wonderful numbers. So I'm kind of really, I'm a middle-aged guy really starting a new career from scratch. And yeah, thank goodness I have the presenting stuff and the singing to give me a bit of support while I develop this new business.
Andrew Hellmich: Well, that's a beautiful way to start a business, to have the other businesses supporting what you're doing and what you're passionate about. You're calling yourself a professional photographer now, so I'm guessing there's a consistent income stream?.
Gary Williams: Yeah, so I guess you want to know numbers. So this year, I'm looking at my little board to my left here. So this year, if I don't get any more work, I'll have done about 30,000 pounds as a photographer.
Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So fantastic.
Gary Williams: I'm really happy with that, because it's kind of well like, you know. So my first paid job was last year, at the beginning of last year, and not, I didn't really do that much last year because that was a job for a fashion company, doing flat lay stuff, which, incidentally, I'd never done before, didn't have a clue. But of course, when they said, "Can you do this?", I said, "Yes, of course, I can". And then I went home and tried to figure it out. And I had a room. I have a room in my house, which I turned into a little home studio. And of course, from my background, as you know, being a singer, I know a lot of actors and singers, so I really set myself up being a headshot photographer, and that's what I thought I was going to do. I didn't think about weddings at all. Why? Because my sort of background in shooting was doing street photography, and most of my street photography fans would just really turn their noses up at weddings. Like, "Oh, weddings", like, like, it was the pits, you know. And I really recognize that kind of attitude. I mean, at the time, I just agreed with them, right? "Oh, wedding". It's just, you know, saying "It's awful. We can't even anything, worse for a photographer to do, and these nightmare brides and all". So I just thought, well, I didn't know any better. I thought, "Yeah, yeah, who wants to do weddings? That'd be awful". And what happened was, after whatever, a year of me doing the headshots, and the head shots was going great. And I really loved that work. I loved working in the studio and figuring out the lighting, and that was developing nicely, that business. And then everybody was talking about AI, and that made me worried. And I don't, I mean, we can, maybe this is another podcast, but I thought, you know, if there's one area of photography that I feel might be under threat from AI is kind of business corporate headshots, you know, if all my friends are sending me pictures of them that they've taken with their phone, and suddenly they're like, in a space helmet or, you know, riding a lion and it looks amazing. If I just want to, you know, if I'm working, if I've got a firm and I've got 20 people working for me, and I just want some nice, clean headshots, you know, I thought that, I think that business might be under threat. And I thought, "I really want to be a photographer. I want to make my living from this. What else can I do?". And I thought, "Weddings and events".
Andrew Hellmich: So what I'm curious about is why your documentary photography friends were turning their noses up at weddings, when, to me, that's the one genre where you can be paid handsomely to be a documentary photographer.
Gary Williams: Yeah, I absolutely agree with you and that I've subsequently learned. But you know, I think that is also the reason why those people were turning their nose at her, but because most street photographers that I know, that's not how they earn the living, right? They're just doing, they're hobbyists. They like taking pictures. And I would go out with them, and we'd just have fun, you know, doing street photography, right? And so even the very thought of getting paid for anything that's not just there for the art sake, is somehow, you know, the content. But you know, as a singer on cruise ships, I really recognize this attitude, because I'd had the same thing for years with cruise ships. So, you know, I've been lucky enough I performed in the West End. I've sung at Carnegie Hall or the Royal Albert Hall. I've toured in Australia or the Melbourne Symphony. So I've done some big stuff as a singer, and people, you know, I've got this list of stuff that I could rattle off, and people go, "Wow, that's impressive". Soon as you mentioned cruise ships. I don't know what it's like in Australia, for wherever people are listening to this, but it's somehow tinged with this sort of cheesy, you know, velvet bow tie 1970s crooner, just a little bit sad, you know, you I mean, it's that sort of Simon Cowell X Factor thing of, you know, "Well, you know, we don't want you, but I'm sure you'll do well on cruise ships", or some, "Someone will have you", right? So cruise ships have got this kind of reputation of being a place where sort of, it's a bit of a sell-out. There's no artistic merit to it, you know, you just sort of go on there and, okay, you can't get a job anywhere else so go on a cruise ship, which anybody that really does that serious will know that it's absolute nonsense. I mean, I always say variety isn't dead. It's just moved to sea. And the ships that I work on now, the, you know, the theaters are like 1600 seat theaters that absolutely slay, to the other stuff that they've got so amazing. The production to the production value is astonishing. And, you know, it's a whole different skill set as singing, like seven different languages. You gotta be able to, you know, it's a skill set to be able to do that job well to a high standard, right? And so anybody that's doing it knows that those snobs or the people looked down on it are completely wrong and misinformed, right? But it just, it goes back years, right? That attitude goes back to when it was a bit cheesy. And I think it's exactly the same applies to wedding photography, that those that don't do it and those that don't know they look at wedding photography, "Oh yeah, it's just some guy in a you know, terrible suit standing on a ladder telling everyone to say cheese or something", you know. And "It's just this awful, uncreative place that sad photographers go because they can't get any work, you know, in fashion or something more worthy", you know. And so that, all right, "They'll do weddings, and it's just a bit all a bit sad, right, you know, and someone to be almost looked down upon, you know, by everybody". And that, of course, anybody that's doing is nonsense. And I did my first wedding. I looked the other day, but what is the date? So it's not even a year since I did my first wedding. So my first wedding was August, or something, last year, and we'll get onto this. But I was so nervous. I mean, I was so, I'm not someone that has anxiety, but I had two anxiety dreams the night before, as I never had one in my life before. I was just so petrified, and I'd watched it. Must have watched, you know, every single YouTube video on how to shoot a wedding, you know. And it went great. And I was completely won over. I mean, I was completely like, I loved it. I mean, it was stressful, it was a long day, but I loved it. I was like, "This is amazing. I'm getting to do exactly the kind of pictures that I like to do", which was mostly documentary and just really kind of, you know, emulate the people that I love, like Martin Parr, and I also like doing portraits. And I'm, you know, all my experience in the studio and posing with people and working with people, and, you know, understanding lighting. I love doing bit with a couple, you know, for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour, whatever it was going out and doing a couple times, and the rest of it being documentary. I mean, for me, I was complete. I was like, "This is where I belong. This uses all of my skill sets. This is what I love doing." And I just realized how really ignorant all the people were that were looking down at wedding photography, I mean, and I’m more fully alarmed because, yeah, there's money to be earned there. There's a lot of fun to be had there. And anybody that does it knows that it's just you're there right at the center of the happiest of days. I mean, nobody's moaning or complaining, you know, everybody's happy, everybody's happy to see the photographer. I mean, it's a really beautiful thing. I think so good.
Andrew Hellmich: It's lovely hearing you talk about it, because it's so true. All those things that you're discovering, feeling, finding, are exactly why we all get into it and why we love doing it. So that's really refreshing to hear. I want to bring you back to a couple of things. Well, first of all, that I said in the intro, but also you mentioned the VAT, and this always comes up when I'm talking to photographers based in the UK. So you have your three different income sources..
Andrew Hellmich: Are they registered as different businesses? Or do you have to combine the income from all those and then register for VAT? Or do you try and stay under the threshold? How does that work for you?
Gary Williams: I'm not registered for VAT.
Gary Williams: I said VAT as a sort of an example of, you know, those awful sort of business. I used to be registered for VAT years ago when I had a different business, which was in fire safety training. So we won't talk about that today. That's beyond the scope of this podcast. But my income, my income as a presenter, is mostly through Fiverr. You know, Fiverr, the sort of freelancer website.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, fiverr.com.
Gary Williams: Yes. And because, and, I mean, I've researched this as best I can, I've had my accountant look at this, but because Fiverr is based in Israel, so that work is sort of contracted out there, it does not come under the scope for British value added tax, and so I still pay tax on that income, but as far as VAT is concerned, it doesn't contribute towards the threshold. So that means, because, I, of course, I mean, I guess you have the same kind of sales tax in Australia or most countries, and you know, no photographer wants to be registered for VAT because you're not dealing, no wedding photographer, because you're not dealing with businesses, they can't claim the VAT, but they can't claim the sales tax back. So that just makes us, in the case of the UK, I guess it's 20% so I'll be just 20% more expensive, and the only people that are benefiting is the government, right? So yes, there are ways to legitimately avoid that. And I looked into that because at one point I thought, I am going to need to be VAT registered for my other businesses. So as long as you know, what I would have done is started a limited company, had different directors, and it would have been very clearly different people involved, doing a very different service to the other things that I do. And I would have, I think, confidently, have been able to demonstrate to the tax office that, you know, this is a different business, different people are involved.
Gary Williams: It's a different entity to me, singing or presenting.
Gary Williams: So, you know, but I know it's a big issue. And I know some photographer friends that, I mean, it's terrible, really, that they, you know, they get to a point where they're getting near the limit, and they, they're just turning down work. I mean, it's not killing their business, but it is stopping, it's throttling their business.
Andrew Hellmich: It's stifling growth. It seems crazy.
Gary Williams: Stifling growth. You know, they're specifically not selling albums, you know, because you know that few 100 extra dollars might take them over the limit. And you know, that's all for now. I guess the limits got to be somewhere, right? The line's got to be somewhere. So, you know, there's always going to be that issue. But it is a shame. It's a shame that anything should be there that is stifling a successful businesses growth, but because my photography is quite new, and that numbers just aren't big enough yet, that's not a situation that I have to worry about yet.
Andrew Hellmich: What seems crazy to me, Gary, is in the UK, and I don't know if this is in other parts of the world, that once you go over the threshold, you have to apply that VAT to everything you've earned up to that threshold. It's not just anything above that, it's the whole lot .
Gary Williams: You're right. Yes, correct.
Andrew Hellmich: So you're basically going a big step backwards before you go forwards. But of course, if you can take a big step forward, then it is worthwhile. Let me just bring you back to something I said in the intro, which, again, I'm curious about, I'm sure the listeners questioning this as well. I said you've been published in the New York Times, had your photography displayed in galleries around the world and shown on billboards around London. But you've only been shooting professionally for a year.
Gary Williams: All that good, all that fancy stuff, right? Yeah. How did I do that?
Gary Williams: Well, I'm going to tell you. So what I did was I started two projects, personal projects. And, you know, because I'm quite new to this, and I can't give your listeners any, like, amazing tips on how to, you know, make fortunes or break a, you know, a million dollars in turnover. But what I can say is, I found the value of personal projects has been incredible, both in terms of what I've learned and my development as a photographer and in my business. So the two projects were, well, I'm going to use the past tense in the sense of the Camden Passage project, which is the book that will perhaps mention later on, that is a project which I've started shooting in March 2020 and so I guess that was, I mean, we must have still been in COVID, but must have had some kind of freedom, because I've just looked at the EXIF data. And yeah, it was March 2020 I was out there taking pictures. So I, you know, hadn't had experience in really approaching people, and other than on the street, but just going into shops, businesses and asking to take their photograph and posing them. And I really wanted to develop that experience. And in some cases, some of the shopkeepers would say, "Well, you know, we're busy, we're open, but if you come back, you know, tomorrow we're closed, and bring some lights, and whatever you want to do, we'll do it properly". So I would treat each of those jobs as if I was being paid a lot of money to do them, and I was nervous, like I was being paid money to do them, right?, and I didn't really know what I was doing. So each of those shoots that I was doing for free was a huge learning curve for me, and I was delighted to do it for free, because, I mean, it was last night. I didn't have to pay models. I didn't, I mean, for me, you know, I didn't go to study photography university for two or three years. This was my university. And I always say that Camden Passage was my university because I was there for four years doing it, and I wasn't getting paid money to do it. But it wasn't costing, I wasn't having to spend a lot of money on university fees either. And each job I had, I mean, some places, they were incredible. Sort of this one guy down there who's got, like, a world class collection of Oriental art like that he loans to museums, and so he's got this sort of subterranean warehouse, you know, and I photographed him in there. And it was pretty tricky, because, you know, I had to take quite a few of my studio lights in and but each one of those I did, I just learned so much from. And also what happened is that I slowly accumulated a strong portfolio of pictures, and I started entering those in competitions. And some of those competitions, you know, they did well. And some of the competitions, or I was entering them to sort of, you know, well, I guess it was a competition, but with established galleries that would then show the winning entrance in a an actual physical gallery, you know, that people could see. And that was happening with the Camden Passage project. And at the same time, I started another project, which is ongoing called At Home, where I'm photographing interesting people in their homes, and that's been a brilliant project for me. It's time consuming, and it's quite sort of difficult to set up, but, you know, I really get to spend time with people. I maybe spend an hour or two in their homes, and I treat those as though I'm being paid as a commission by a magazine or a newspaper to go and take, some of the people that I photograph are famous. Some of them are not, but I treat everyone as if this is kind of a big deal and I'm getting paid well. I'm not getting paid anything, but I treat them as though I am, and I want my work to be worthy of any kind of serious publication that might have commissioned me. And again, I've learned so much with that, so that now, if I go into someone's home or workplace to do those kind of photos, I mean, I'm very comfortable. Of course, one's always a little bit apprehensive, and what am I going to find? What's it going to be like? And you don't you know what's going to happen, right? But I've got the skill set now to confidently approach any of those situations and know that I can deliver ,so that if I do get commissioned and ask, as I have been subsequently, to do those kind of jobs that I can, confident I don't have to BS my way in to that, I can confidently say, "Yeah, I can do that, and I'll deliver pictures that I'm happy with". So with those two projects, I've produced a body of work, particularly that the At Home stuff has given me some really interesting images of some really interesting people. So that's how I've got a lot of those credits and the gallery stuff. And, you know, for example, one of those was with Nikki Haslam, who's a well-known British designer, and I went to his home. I mean, it took, you know, three hours to get to his home, and I did the photographs. And then, one of the photographs was used quite recently, and I think it was like in Home Interior. So it's like a big national magazine, they needed a photograph of him for a feature they were doing on him in their 500th issue, and they asked if they could use one of those photos. So then I got the credit of that photo being used in that pretty major national publication. He also does this tea towel every year. It's kind of this comedy tea towel saying things that are sort of, you know, a common, is Nikki Haslam's Common Tea Towel. And he asked and he used one of the images that I did from that shoot. And that's happened quite a lot. There's somebody else that I did in Camden Passages had a book written about them, so they use one of the pictures in that and of course, they're paying for these images as well at this point. Somebody else had was featured in a centenary of their school that they went to, and one of the images that I took was featured in that and that's happened a lot with those images. So I'm a big believer in doing things for the right reasons, doing things not maybe I can do this and eventually they're going to pay me for it, or it's going to get in a magazine. Forget all that. You do it just because you love doing it and because of what it's giving you at the time. You do it for what is right in front of you, which is the opportunity to learn and to interact with interesting people and just to be a better photographer. And then if those other things come along, like credits or some work, then that's great. But I actually think if you do it for the right reasons, they usually do come along.
Andrew Hellmich: It comes anyway. Tell me just quickly about the billboard, like, how did that end up there? And were you paid for it?
Gary Williams: Kind of the same thing. I'd, well, yes, I, with Camden Passage. So this is a place in London, near Angel tube. It's pretty so it's quite close to where I live. There is, kind of like a government associated organization, like a business. It's an organization to sort of represent businesses to the local council and to sort of further the interests of local businesses in a quite a localized area in which includes Camden Passage. And people that I was photographing said, "Oh, have they contacted you?". They'd always talk to me about this group, this organization. So I thought, well, you know, I'm going to go see them and just say 'hi'. So I had a meeting with them and told them that "I'm a photographer. This is what I'm doing. I don't know if this you can use me for anything". So they started using me to photograph their events, and then I did their headshots and photographs for their annual report, and then, and this is how this project happened, because, you know, it was they needed, they were doing a new website, and they needed loads of new images. Rather than getting stock images, they wanted loads of new images of the area, which I know well. So it was a no brainer to commission me to do that, which I did. They're doing features of local, you know, important business people, and they wanted photographs of them in their homes or in their workplaces, which what do you know? I'd spent the last few years doing that as a hobby anyway, so that was fine. And then they've got a billboard that they're advertising something on, and they needed an image for the billboard, and they were quite specific about what they wanted. And as an aside, the image that they wanted was of sort of a green area, in the area, and there's this one particular place called Islington Green. It's this sort of small patch of green right in the middle of the sort of high street. And it was a beautiful day. I'd waited till the light was right I could get the kind of image that I wanted. And I'm shooting. And of course, while I'm shooting, there's people laying around sunbathing and stuff, including a few kids. I was shooting at, like 20 to 23 mil or something like that. So, you know, it's everybody, and it's very small, and I could see a few people like giving me an odd look, and I thought, I know why they're looking at me. I'm just going to ignore it. And then these two people came over and basically accused me of being a pedophile, for taking pictures of the kids. And it was really embarrassing and really, really awkward. And of course, I'm sort of mortified, and I'm telling them what I'm doing, give them, you know, I'm sort of explained and I stopped what I was doing. And then that, really, I thought about that a long time afterwards, and I thought, you know, and then it made me a kind of crossed, and I should have told them to mind their own business and whatever, but, you know, hadn't at the time. But anyway, yeah, one of those. Fortunately, I'd already got an image which would ended up on the billboard, but I didn't tell the client that I was accused as a pedophile taking their image that ended up being used on a billboard. But these are the things that, yeah, but these are the things that I mean, actually, I had a little period of shooting street stuff. I had my Bruce Gilden week, where just to push myself out of my comfort zone. I thought, I'm going to do a Bruce Gilden, I'm going to go into Soho with a flash and loads of attitude in people's faces, taking pictures of, you know, doing a Bruce Gilden and, oh man, I got, I got a shout. I was I got a lot of abuse.
Gary Williams: I got a lot of abuse those two days. Yeah, I got some nice pictures. But, yeah, so I suppose a lot of street photographers, that kind of stuff comes with the territory, right?
Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. Let me ask you about the actual book. So, I mean, I read and you told us that you were, you did the trip with Martin to India that sort of inspired you, when COVID hit you started shooting for the book. Just tell me about the basis of the idea. Was it to produce a book? Was it to produce a body of work? Was it for an exhibition? Why did you start and what were you looking to get out of it in the very beginning?
Gary Williams: In my mind, I thought, "Well, who knows, in the distant future, maybe, who knows? Maybe there's a book, maybe there's an exhibition", but, I mean, I really didn't, that was just a dim, distant possibility. That's certainly not why I did it. I did it for, I would say the two main reasons I did it. The first one was quite selfish in the, I, in fact, all the reasons are very selfish. The first reason was that I needed to, wanted to practice, you know, street photography and sort of skulking around, taking sneaky pictures of people, was never really my thing. I never liked that. I always liked doing kind of, what I would call street portraiture, which is saying hi to someone, having a little conversation, taking a picture and having a moment. And I really enjoyed that, and I still do enjoy that. I'd rather that than snaps. And also street photography, good street photography, which I love, and I love looking at, but it takes so long, I mean, to get really good, you know, those moments don't just happen, right? Usually they don't happen. You're waiting for them. You've got everything sort of cured, and you waiting for something to come into the frame, or, you know, it's, they're crafted. And I haven't got the patience for that. But I knew I like to do street portraiture, so I wanted to get better at that kind of stuff. I wanted to get better at talking to people, interacting with people, and, if necessary, posing people, and also being brave enough to approach market store holders and shopkeepers and interrupt what they were doing and ask if I can take their picture and so on. Another, the other reason, which was selfish, was that I've lived here for like, kind of 20 odd years. But, you know, I think this is quite common in big cities, certainly the case here in London. I still don't have real sort of strong community roots here, because it's so transient. I mean, of course, I've got friends around here, but you know that feeling of connection to, you know, I go into the coffee shop, I go into this shop and that shop, and I say "Hi!", and I've been going there for years, and we have a little chat, but that's kind of it. It's very transactional, right? Actually, really feeling, getting to know someone, and, you know, feeling you sort of got roots in your community. I think it's quite hard often in cities to find you certainly don't get that doing street photography, skulking around with your camera looking a bit weird, right? So I don't think this is why I started it, but I quickly found that doing the project, I was having proper conversations. I was there very, very regularly. And I really got to know everybody in this little street.
Andrew Hellmich: How often were you there when you say regularly?
Gary Williams: It obviously depended on work and what I was doing, but sometimes I'd be there maybe three or four times a week. And a really interesting thing that I found, and this is a big takeaway for me that I want to share with people, is that, you know, we can often think, if we're going to do a project, that, "Oh, you know, we've got to go to India, we've got to go to", you know, in my case, because I'm in London, think, "Wow, if I could go to Australia and take so", yeah, it's been amazing. And you might be thinking, "Wow, street photography in London, to be a mate", we all think that we've got to travel, and we've got to go a long way away, right?. This street's just down there from where I live. Okay, it's in a busy part of London. But what's really interesting is that you could easily, I mean, it would take you literally five minutes to walk down this street that I've done this whole project about. It's a tiny little street, right? But what I found is that the more time I spent there, the more there was to discover. It was like drilling down a microscope, enhanced more detail, enhance more detail, because everyone's got a story. And you know, whether it's someone I'm talking to in the street that I've just stopped and they might introduce me to someone else or and get you know, and I'd be taking pictures of, I got to know everybody in that street really well. And that led on to, somebody said to me, "It's just round the corner from Camden Passage is this lady. Have you met Susan Daniels? She's a famous opera singer, and she's handy fascinated". So one day I'm shooting their coronation street party, which is just off Camden passage. Got some great pictures there, which ended up doing well in competitions and in some exhibitions. But I meet this Susan Daniel, and actually she was the start of the At Home projects. I didn't call it At Home then. I said "I'd love to take a picture". Was really interesting person, great personality. I said, we arranged it, and I went to a home and took pictures, and the picture was still the best At Home picture that I've taken. We've since become great friends. I saw her just the other day with a lot of people in Camden Passage. I mean, I see them, it's big hugs. I can walk down Camden Passage. I really feel a presence, in a part of my community, and that's been a huge gift, really, which I didn't expect, which is communities given me. Also a benefit from it is that the work I did, and I started an Instagram profile just for that, that project, and it does help to spread the word for this little street, because a lot of shops are struggling on high streets. And, you know, I've really genuinely taken it upon myself to champion this street because it is special. And what happened is, talking about that company that you know, that the organization that paid me to do the billboard and the other photographs, they got into the project as well, and they were very supportive of it, and they approached me and said, "How would you feel about us staging, helping you stage an exhibition of this work?". And that would be amazing. And actually, it's already up. It's out, now, but it's going to be officially opened in about two weeks, I think, by the mayor of Islington, and they're making a big thing of it. And it's really, for me, it's a kind of a surreal moment to walk down the street and to see it's an outdoor exhibition, sort of a NOR, you know, poster size pictures of 14 of the images from this project, are there, you know, on the street, in a very busy part of London, walking from the subway to Camden Passage. And it's brilliant for the community. It's celebrating the people that work and live and shop in this little place. So the people you know that are in it, love it. It's always good for everyone all around.
Gary Williams: Honor for me as a photographer. But how often do we get a chance to see our work displayed like that? And at the same time, as you know, we've just released the book of the images. And, you know, I thought a long time, is it going to be a zine? Am I going to do anything with it at all? Because it's an investment, but you see how I have you asked me one question I took for 20 minutes, so now I'm going to show that, and you can ask me another one.
Andrew Hellmich: Well, just in regard to walking down the street now, Camden Passage, like, do you get recognized? Are you Gary the photographer now?
Gary Williams: Very much. Yeah, very much.
Andrew Hellmich: That's awesome. That's so good.
Gary Williams: And it's lovely. I mean, you know, it's one of those things that if I'm in a hurry, I don't walk down there, you know, I don't be rude to people. But, yeah, I could very and, you know, it can get lonely as a photographer, right? And now I'm shooting weddings, you know, you come home, you're editing, editing, editing, you know, and you just need to get out. And, you know, my boyfriend lives with me now, but you know, for a long time he didn't. And you know, I could spend all day on my own. I think, you know, I just want to go. I don't need to. I don't want to go and have a big party somewhere. I don't need to, you know, have everybody around to the house. I do. I just want to chat to some nice people. I just need some human interaction. I always used to say, when I was working on ships, you know, it's very easy to go on a ship as an headliner. And you know, when you do the show, you're the man at the moment, and everyone's going crazy for you. Standing ovation. Days after the show, they're stopping you and, but before then, you're nobody, right? And you might not know anybody, and it could be quite lonely. And I used to say, as long as I get some kind of, you know, decent conversation, a bit of nice human interaction every day, I'm good. And so on those days that I'd be feeling a little bit lonely or think, "Okay, I need to get out now, get it away from my computer". I can just walk down Camden Passage. I mean, I could spend a couple of hours just walking down. This is full of little coffee shops and stuff. I can go in everybody knows me. Have a nice conversation, not just surface conversations, but nice, proper conversations with people who are pleased to see me, and all that has come about because of me doing this project, you know, for just for myself and for the community.
Andrew Hellmich: Nice. So when you approach the very first business to start this project, I imagine there would have been nerves, you got past that. What did you tell them the photos were for? Because I'm sure that was the first question. What are these for, Gary?
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Andrew Hellmich: I love it. I love it. I've got one more comment to make, nothing to do with the book. So before I make that comment or even ask you about it, where is the best place for the listener to see the book, to see your work, where can we follow or find more about you online?
Gary Williams: I was at the easiest place, to go to my website, which is my name, which is Gary Williams. 1 r in Gary. garywilliams.photography. And there you'll find a link to the Camden Passage. And from that page you can if you want to buy it or see more about it, or the Instagram, so the best page is garywilliams.photography
Andrew Hellmich: Okay. And will we find the Instagram page or account?
Gary Williams: Well, yeah. Or you can find me on Instagram. Instagram is garywilliams.photography.
Andrew Hellmich: Great. All right. I'll add links to all those places so it's easy to find in the show notes. The comment that I did want to make or even ask you about, is the little YouTubes that I talked to. You're an easy guest to interview, that is, for sure. The YouTube videos on your website, I absolutely love them. Were they your idea? And you get any feedback or comment about them?
Gary Williams: Which videos are these? Me talking about my business and stuff. Your wedding photographer.
Andrew Hellmich: This is you, your head, your face, talking to camera, basically introducing yourself, saying that you want to work with the customer,
Gary Williams: Right? Okay, yeah. Well, so I think I mentioned to you that I work as a presenter. So those kind of videos I make for other people all the time, that's kind of what I do. So I just made him for myself. I particularly, I think, for anything, but I think particularly for weddings, which is such an intimate thing, I have had huge positive feedback about those. And I know that what people tell me regularly, you know, in the sea of competition, as there is in London for wedding photography, people will say "We saw your video, and that's what's sway it for us". And the reason it's, so basically, what I'm doing in that video is just saying, "Hi, I'm Gary. This is what I do. This is the way that I should", but all that stuff they can just read on the same website,
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, but it's different. It's different.
Gary Williams: Yeah, what the video is doing is basically it's just like “Oh, he seems like a nice guy"..
Andrew Hellmich: Yes, 100%.
Gary Williams: "But he's a person and he seems like a nice guy". It doesn't really matter what I'm saying, right? It's just and it doesn't really matter. I don't think even so much the production. They're quite well produced, because that's what I do, and I've got a professional setup here. But I would really, really recommend those so much to anybody watching this. Just put a face, and it doesn't matter if you feel a bit awkward again, just keep doing it and have 50 goes until you feel comfortable with it. Have 50 goes, you know, just do it and put it out there. Whether you pin it to your Instagram profile or you put it on your website, it doesn't matter if it's just on, you know, just recorded on your phone. I mean, the cameras on phones are amazing now, and same with, you don't need a fancy microphone attached to the phone. It's just, just something. You just say, "Hey, this is me. I'd love to work with. You got any questions? Please let me know". You bet all you're doing in 30 seconds is saying, "This is what I look like. I'm not some weird person, and you know, you're not able to just come and meet me in person right now as you're inquiring, but you kind of are, because this is me"..
Gary Williams: And I'm a nice guy.
Gary Williams: That's it, right?
Andrew Hellmich: Yep. And I would implore the listener to go and check out these little videos, because they're 30 seconds to a minute and straight away even before, like just we'd never met or talked. But I jumped on, I had a look at that before I asked you to come on and do this interview. And went, "Oh, wow, you look like a nice guy". And that exactly what you said. That's all it took that 30 seconds.
Gary Williams: No, that's kind of mission accomplished if you do it. If you want to work, because business, you know, it's all personal. It's all personally what we do, you know? And you can talk about the numbers and the quality of the photography and, you know, because, I mean, there's so many amazing photographers, far, far, far better than me, but at the end of the day, if they like you, you know, if you're nice guy, particularly at a wedding, you're going to be glued to them all day. You know, they got to like you. You've got to, you know, they're gonna, "Oh, he's all right, he'll do". The photographs of the 1000 you know, 1000 wedding photographers, and we're all taking the same pictures, pretty much, you know, we're all doing pretty much the same thing. Yeah, that's a good one That's not so good. We’re all doing the same stuff, you know, how they, how are they going to choose, you know, "Well, he seems like a nice guy. Price is all right, let's"
Andrew Hellmich: I love it. On that note. Gary, massive thanks for coming on, for sharing everything you have. The book looks amazing. Your website, it stands out. You certainly stand out. And look, I had fun chatting to you, and I'm looking forward to seeing how the next project goes, where it leads, and following your progress in the photographic industry.
Gary Williams: You'll be the first to know. And also, and I just say that if anybody does you know, contact me through, you know, sees the website or the Instagram, please feel free, if there's anything that I can help you with, if you're doing the same kind of project yourself, or there's any specifics that you want to ask me about, just message me. And I'm very, very happy to, we all need to help each other. One thing that I found about photography, the photography community, is that, I mean, I just think it's a really beautiful, helpful, supportive community, much more so than I found the music business. And I think it's just a really beautiful thing to be a part of. And I love, you know, helping and sharing whatever I've learned with other people, because that's how we all get better at what we do, and if we're able to give each other little shortcuts, I think that's a beautiful thing.
Andrew Hellmich: I agree. I agree 100% I'm with you there all the way. So thank you for offering that. Again, I’ll put links to where people can find you on in the show notes. Gary, massive thanks.
Gary Williams: My pleasure. Have a great day.
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The post 581: Gary Williams – How Personal Projects Can Boost Your Photography Business appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.
