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Venus Michael of www.profitfirstforphotographers.com and  www.one21accountability.com appeared on my radar via good friend of the podcast, John Glaser, who messaged me to say this…

You need to have Venus Michael on the podcast. She is my book keeper and she is a profit first professional and just published the Profit First for Photographers book.

I started doing profit first this year and it has completely changed my business!!!

I am no longer concentrating on the top line of my business but on the bottom line, and with her help and the methodology of profit first has transformed the profitability of my business.

The funny thing is I had a zoom call scheduled with Venus 2 years ago, after I read the original profit first book by Mike Michalowicz, and my accountant at the time talked me out of meeting with her because she said Profit First was a bad idea, but she had no idea what it really meant.

I REALLY wish I would have done that zoom 2 years ago. My business would be in such a different place right now!!!

I can't speak highly enough of Profit First and the fact that there is a version of the book written specifically for photographers is AWESOME!!!

Following that message and the release of her book… Profit First for Photographers — The definitive guide for photographers ready to escape the cycle of entrepreneurial poverty and achieve financial freedom, I had to get Venus for an interview.

In this episode, learn the concept behind profit first, how it applies to you and your photography business and how it will change your approach to money and profits and haw to apply it to your life.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

The idea of the book is literally to stop thinking of your business as a side hustle and treat it like an actual business, and to pay yourself. It is very important you pay yourself. – Venus Michael

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It's better if you start this process when you're smaller, because you build a habit and you think about your goals, then once you start actually making six figures, you're like, ‘Oh, you know, I messed up.’ Or ‘I wish I would have known this earlier.’ ‘I wish I would have taken the call two years ago.’ – Venus Michael

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

When you are dealing with smaller revenues, you have to be a more precise in your expenses, and you don't have a lot that you can take home, but you may find that once you implement this system, you're taking home more than you did before, because you actually have a system that now you are watching your expenses, and you're paying attention to what's going on, instead of, you know, when your revenue is that low of 50, or it's a side hustle, you kind of get stuck in this trap of going back and forth, and you just keep reinvesting. – Venus Michael

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Venus shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

If you're ever sitting there thinking about your business and ‘Would I?’ Should I?’ or ‘Can I afford something?’ That needs to be a trigger of, ‘Do you need an account for that?’ You know, like, ‘Could I get my business to pay for my $10,000 bike?’ ‘Could I get my business to pay for the down payment of this house I want?’ Those were all triggers for ‘Let's get an account for that.’ – Venus Michael

If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Venus, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

Once a quarter, you actually take a profit distribution, different from your owner's pay, because you are the business owner, you take a profit distribution. And how you figure that out is you take 50% half of whatever the balance is. If you have accumulated $1,000 in your profit account and it's distribution day, you actually go and take 500 out. You stick it in your pocket, you do something fun with it. Do not reinvest it into the business…Do not do that. Go do something fun. – Venus Michael

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

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You make a conscious decision to take your profit first. – Venus Michael

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Profit First for Photographers Website

Venus Michael Website

One21 Account-Ability

Profit First for Photographers: Develop the Habits to Transform Your Photography Business from a Cash-Eating Monster to a Money-Making Machine by Venus Michael on Amazon

You Need a Budget (YNAB)

Episode 538: John Glaser – Facebook Ads and what you need to be aware of when running yours

Thanks again for listening and for Venus' candid thoughts, ideas, and experience on how to apply the profit-first methodology and concepts to real and working photographers, no matter the size of their business.

Because there is so much AI coming at you and so much software coming at you, and the newest, greatest, latest CRM and all this stuff, you want to audit your software list at least once a quarter and ask yourself, ‘Am I using it, and do I get the value for it?’ So if they're charging you $97 and you're only using it 10% of the time, then maybe you're not getting the value for that, right? And if you're like, nope, not really getting the value, then you need to look for alternatives or just flat out cancel it. – Venus Michael

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

Venus Michael: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: So you got to tell me the book is it just out as it been in the making for the last 10 years. Tell me about the book.

Venus Michael: So it's been in the making for about five years, when I started getting the idea that I was going to do it, and then I go back and forth and back and forth with it. And then about, it took me about two years once I finally committed and said, "Okay, I'm going to do this." It took me about two years to get it done and it launched. It has a birthday of July 9. That is its birthday, so it's been out just a few weeks.

Andrew Hellmich: So why did you write the book? And why for photographers?

Venus Michael: So in 2016 when I joined the Profit First community and became a Certified Profit First Professional, I loved the program then and I started working with photographers, and they were always telling me, "You need to write a book. You need to write a book", because I was giving them golden nuggets of knowledge of this is how we take this system that Mike Michalowicz did, and this is how we tweak it for your industry. But I could only talk to so many people, and they're like, "You need to write a book so everybody can have this." And after listening to that for a while, there's quite a few different things that happen when you decide to write a derivative book of a book that already is copyrighted, and the main thing is you have to go back to that author and ask for permission. And so I think I went to him four or five times before I finally said, "Okay, I'm ready." Like, I'd go and I'd say, "I want to talk about this", and then it wouldn't happen and be like, "Okay, well, maybe later." And finally I said, "Okay, I'm ready." And that's when things started moving.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So how were photographers finding you in the first place? Were they going to say, you know, the Profit First website that Mike owned, and then you're listed there as a service provider?

Venus Michael: So yes, there is a website you can go to find Profit First Professionals. What happens in the background is your information gets routed to multiple Profit First Professionals, depending on who fits by the information that you put in there. So if you were a photographer and you went to that website, you may be matched with me because I put in there that I work with them, or you may be matched with another very amazing Profit First Professional. But the way people were finding me specifically is through my very first photography client. She found me through BNI networking here locally, and she has since then become an influencer and a mentor to a lot of photographers, and she kept dropping my name, and then so other people would find me, and then they'd go drop my name. And so it was very organic how I just woke up one day and realized that out of my roster of everybody I was working with, you know, 80, 85% of them were a photographer, or something that circled that industry. So the hair and the makeup, the video, the editing, all of that stuff that circled that industry, and that's when it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks. I need to niche to this, because that's who I'm attracting.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, nice. So when you decide to create the book, write the book, what's in it for Mike? Like, why would he say 'yes' to having someone write a derivative of the book that already exists?

Venus Michael: Well, I don't actually know this to be true, but I believe it to be true is that whenever somebody buys a derivative, if they haven't bought his book yet, they're going to buy it, you know. So, like, if you go onto Amazon and you try to buy a derivative book, and it'll tell you commonly sold together. I see Mike's book in there too. So it does up his sales. There also is a contract, and he does receive a payment for it. So there's a monetary thing for that as well. And then it really drives the brand forward. What I tell people a lot is that, because they'll ask me, why do I need your book if I've read Mike's book? Well, Mike's book is great, but when he was writing the book, he was talking to the general public. He wasn't talking to a specific industry with all the little quirks that happen in that industry. So these derivative books have started popping up. I think there's about 20 of them now, or maybe 21 that are very industry specific. And get into, okay, "Mike's book is the framework. It's the foundation. My book is going to build the house", you know, so it's going to be very personalized to this is what photographers struggle with. This is how we tweak the percentages. This is, you know, the examples are ones that you can really relate to, instead of an example of maybe a contractor or an office person, you're getting examples of other people who are doing creative things too. And maybe you don't fit that example exactly, but in your mind, it's a lot easier to say, "Okay, this person went through and had these three different lenses to create this picture. And I don't have those three, but I have these three over here that work", right? And so it's the same type of thought process, and that's why derivative books are actually very, very valuable for whatever industry you're in.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So when you're writing the book, are there guidelines from Michael or his team saying how much you can actually use or copy for one of a better word you know to your book?

Venus Michael: Yes, there is a copyright percentage. You are allowed only a certain percentage that you can actually copy, everything else has to be your own words. Now that's not pertaining to the framework, you know. In Mike's book, he teaches the framework. In my book, I teach the framework. Specifically in my book, there was only, it's a one pager, and it was explaining the concept of what you look at first you remember, you know. And I really liked the way that Mike wrote it, and I didn't have a story or an analogy to change that particular thing. So that's the only thing I took as my you know, 'I'm going to take it from the original book', but there is a very small percentage that you can literally just copy paste. Rest of it has to be your own content.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Got it. Now, we haven't said but you're based in the US, in Texas, the concepts that you teach, that you cover in the book, that you deal with your clients. Are they applicable to photographers from around the world or to the US specifically?

Venus Michael: No, they're applicable to photographers around the world. Because it doesn't matter if you have a US dollar or not a US dollar, you have money somewhere, right? The only hiccup that I have found is that there are countries that don't allow or make it very difficult to have multiple bank accounts. So then we have other tips and tricks that we use and excel sheets and different things to do so that you can have, you know, you may not be able to have multiple bank accounts because of restrictions where you live, but we have other ways of making those buckets, per se, and I'm going to have to, this is something I wasn't even aware of until my book came out, and I got an email from a reader, and she's like, "Well, how do I do this?" And I was like, "Oh", so I started researching it, and so I am going to have to release something like an update or something, as soon as I figure out what are the best tips and tricks, and then I also need to research and figure out what countries are like this, because that hit me new. That's something I didn't know before writing the book. And I wish I did, because I would have included it in there.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Got it. So like, if I read the book, and I want to ask you about the whole concept, we're going to go deeper into that. But if I read the book, is the idea then for me to tell my bookkeeper, my accountant, how I want to run my business, or is it to replace them? Like, what's the idea of the book?

Venus Michael: So the idea of the book is to literally to stop thinking of your business as a side hustle and treat it like an actual business. And to pay yourself. It's very important you pay yourself. Now when it comes to the bookkeeper part, you do want to give a copy to your bookkeeper and say, "Hey, we're going to implement this new system. And this is how I'm going to look at my money." It doesn't change. It really doesn't change anything on the bookkeeping side, a cost is still a cost. It doesn't actually mean that the books get bigger. It just means you have more buckets, and so you're dealing with a couple transfers, but that's very easy on the bookkeeping side to deal with. If your bookkeeper that you have is pushing back and saying, "No, I don't want to do this", then you need to find a new bookkeeper, as you've learned from reading your intro.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, like John did, and just so I've got the terms correct. As far as you're concerned, in the States, do you have bookkeepers and accountants, or are they one in the same thing?

Venus Michael: No, they are not one in the same thing. So we have bookkeepers. The main function of a bookkeeper is to actually do the day to day stuff and have a set of books. Then an accountant or a CPA, the main function for them is to actually talk to you about your tax liability and submit your IRS tax returns. And then you have people who will do both. I do not do both, and it's not because I don't know how or cannot. It's because I don't like doing taxes, but everything else I do but there are two separate functions for those here in the US,

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And that's the same here in Australia. So we would hire a bookkeeper, a lot of the times you might even have, like in my case, I have my spouse, my wife, she does the bookkeeping, and then she presents the books to our accountant to submit to, you know, for tax purposes at the end of the year. So that sounds very similar to Australia. I'm pretty sure it's similar in the UK as well. So can you give us a broad outline of what 'Profit First' is, for anyone who hasn't heard of it or hasn't read the original book by Mike.

Venus Michael: Yeah. So Profit First is literally, it's a system, it's a framework, and you have to change your habits and your outlook on money. And so if you kind of think about a lot of people will relate it to the envelope system. So they'll kind of say, like, "Okay, it's the envelope system, but it's for business." But what it really is it's when you are calm and you are collected and you are thinking about your money, not from an emotional state, you come up with, there's a whole way to do it, but you get a certain percentage of all of your revenue needs to go for this specific purpose, whether it be, it needs to pay the tax bill, it needs to pay you, it needs to buy your supplies. It needs to, you know, buy your equipment or pay for your travel. The purpose doesn't really matter. It's a certain percentage for that particular purpose. Then for every time you get paid, you move that percentage over for that purpose. That's half of it. The other half of it is that when it comes time to actually pay the money, when it comes time to make the purchase, or even make the decision, are you going to travel? Are you going to go to that convention? Are you going to buy that piece of equipment? Whatever is going to happen? You are going back and looking at that bank account, or that bucket or that envelope, whatever you want to call it, that is for that purpose, you know. So for instance, Mike talks about having five buckets, our bank accounts. And it's you have a bank account for your income. That's where all your deposits collect. And then, you know, twice a month, you move it into these other four, you have profit, owners pay, tax, and operating. In my book, we add to that five, we have three other accounts that we say you need to add to. So sales tax, if you're in a place where you have to pay sales tax, and sales tax is different than the regular tax. You know, if you're in a place, then you need an account for that, because that's not your money. The other one is continuing education or business growth. That account I found to be very helpful for masterminds, conventions, education, money that you're spending to know more about your business, to grow your business, not marketing, but actually grow your business. It's the whole on the business in the business type mentality, and then the other one is equipment, because that stuff can hurt when you have to pay for it, and you don't pay for it often, but when you do, it really, really hurts and you need it. You need your cameras, your lenses, your lights, your props, you know, you need your computer, your hard drives, and the electronic stuff that you actually need to do your job that can cost a pretty penny. We make an account for that. And even if we're just putting 1% of all the money you make, just 1% just one you won't really feel it when you move it over, but it will start accumulating. And then when you have to go, you know, drop a large amount of money on a new lens because it broke, or you need to replace your camera or your hard drive crashed. You know you're already in panic because you have to do, you need that equipment, and if you have the money set aside for it, it doesn't hurt and it doesn't hit your bottom line, and you're not borrow stealing money that was actually supposed to go to keeping the lights on or paying yourself or doing your tax bill, you know, that type of stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: But what if? What if there's not enough money in that bucket when you need that new lens or that new camera?

Venus Michael: That's great, and I address that in the book too. So the thing is like, let's say I'll just use US dollars. Let's say you have to buy a piece of equipment. It's going to cost you $2,500, right? And in your bucket you have $1,000, so you take that $1,000 and then you're like, "Okay, well, I really need this." And you go through a whole exercise of, "Do I need this right now? Do I need this one, or can I get a lower priced one?" Once you go through that exercise and you're set, "Yes, I need to spend this $2,500, I only have 1000 over there." Now you only have to take the punch to your gut of $1,500 versus 2500. Ideally, you don't want to ever be in that situation. But that is a very true situation that happens all the time. And then you can be like, "Okay, I don't have to come up with 2500 now, I have to come up with 1500 where am I going to pull that from, and how am I going to adjust and kind of realign my expenses for a month or two so that I can make up for the fact that I have to come up with this." And then you make your purchase, and you start your thing over again, and hopefully build up your buffers to where that doesn't happen again, you know, but it can happen, and it's very common, but you want to lower that punch to the gut when you have to, you know, when you're in panic mode, because you need this piece of equipment to do this job that's going to get you money, right? Like you kind of getting paid.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, let's stay with that example, because so let's say I do need this piece of equipment. I'm going to be in the hole for 1500 because there's only 1000 in the account for the equipment. Where do I take it from? Like, do I take it from my tax bucket? Do I take it from my operating cost bucket? Or is there a rule of thumb I should it follow?

Venus Michael: You should take it from your operating, you should never take anything from your tax because you don't want to have to worry about that later. But if it's not in your operating you do have to get a little creative, and that may also be triggering for you to say, "Are my percentages appropriate?" You know, do I have the right percentages? And that's kind of why you want to sign up and really get with a Profit First Professional, because we can explain that stuff on a fly. But if you, if you don't have it in your operating then you do have to say, "Okay, well, maybe it needs to come from my business growth, and I'm not going to go to that convention until I rebuild that buffer." We call those hiccups. But what they really are is you're borrow stealing from yourself, and you don't want to have to do that. But in reality and in real life, it does happen. So when it does happen, do not throw away the system. Do not say "It didn't work for me", or that you failed. Just say, "Okay, this is a hiccup. This is a speed bump. I fell down. Let me stand up, brush off my knees, and keep going", you know, and then you just get right back on the bandwagon. Be like, "Okay, these are the percentages, and this is how I'm going to move them.", you know.

Andrew Hellmich: Venus, if you were my bookkeeper, and I'm speaking hypothetically here, let's say I'm, you know, I'm in the hole here. I need this $1,500 to get this new lens, because the other one's been damaged. Like, will you say to me, "Andrew, you just need to book another shoot or two. You need to up your price." Like, do you give me some other like, alternatives, instead of borrow, stealing from myself?

Venus Michael: Yes, we look at other opportunities to where you can bring in revenue, you know. But like, let's go through this scenario. So we sit down and I tell you, okay, one of the things I will tell you is, "Can you book another gig, or can you do a special promotion that you won't require that lens, that you can get an influx of cash?" And you say, "Yes, I can", or "No, I can't". Most of the time it's going to be 'no, I can't', because even those small flash cells take time to build right? So then I will say, "Okay, well, you know, can you get revenue anywhere else? And when we hit that wall of like, "No, I need this $1,500 in a week because I have to buy this lens, and there's no way to get revenue", then we start looking, "Okay, where do we have buffers that we can borrow from?" And then get really strict to pay back, right? So you may have to pull back and borrow from either your owner's pay account, you know, but you know, if you do that, then that's not going to put money in your pocket, so it may not pay your mortgage or buy your groceries. So you're going to be highly motivated to, once you get this lens, you know, put it in the funnel to also do extra stuff to bring in more revenue. That's also telling you that maybe your business isn't bringing in enough revenue for your percentages. So we'll look at your percentages and say, "Is this really appropriate?" And we'll kind of tie back on some things that we need to do. Another thing that I do quite a bit with a lot of my clients is we find other ways to pull in revenue. We don't want to just be "Okay, well, I am going to pull in revenue from taking photos or editing", or stuff like that. I will talk with my clients, and I'll find out that they have certain passion projects, and I'll pull on those, and I'll be like, "Okay, here's your passion project that you like to do, and you do it for fun or creative release. How can we make revenue of that?" And so it can be selling your education, because very knowledgeable, you have a lot of stuff. How can we monetize that? It can be a totally different line of photography and using that artistry for a total different client base that you're just like you never thought about doing this client base because nobody else was doing it, or it can be, you know, having nothing to do with photography and having everything to do with being a people connector and hosting, you know, events in your studio that are networking and growth and that go for your purpose. We always want multiple streams of revenue, not just one, so that if one goes down or one is hurting a little bit, we have more buffers that we can pull from.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it okay? So far, we've been talking about, you know, looking for this extra money to fund this lens purchase. Does the conversation change if it's, I'm talking about a holiday, you know, or a trip away with the family. Does it change? I mean, you can see you're laughing already.

Venus Michael: No, I'm grinning because I literally have somebody that we did this in January. One of my clients told me that he wanted to take the whole month of December off. That was his goal for him and his family. He didn't want to work, but you still have to keep the lights on. You still have to pay for the software, like you still have expenses that happen. So we started then, I sent him right back to the bank, which I have a great banking connection for your listeners, that they would like, but I sent it right back to the bank, and I said, "Go open an account and call it December." And he did, and we just dripped 1%, just 1% into that, and we took half of it out of one, and half of it out of another, and put it in there. And he's got his money already sitting there to cover his expenses for December and half of January, because when he comes back, he's gotta start the funnel wheel again. You know, it's like, he's not going to come back January 2, and, "Oh, I've got work", right? Because he hasn't been there all December putting things in the funnel. So when it comes to holidays, when it comes to big purchases, I've got another client that really wants to take his family to Europe. I'm like, "Okay, well, let's make a Europe account for that." I've got another one. She's going to, I think, Iceland, you know. So we've got these big trips that they take more planning and more money, and so we will rework the percentages and literally start setting money aside for that, and try to leave that alone and let it grow so that when it comes time to buy the ticket or purchase it, or just, you know, clock out and be like, "Okay, I'm gone for a month, but I still need all my ACH payments to go out to pay for all these little things." You've got it covered, and you're not worried because you're not bringing in revenue at the time that you're doing XYZ.

Andrew Hellmich: What I'm hearing over and over from you, it sounds very old fashioned. I'm hearing saving for the things that you need rather than borrowing so you can do them right now.

Venus Michael: Yes, it's planning. You know, you have to kind of plan a little bit, right?

Andrew Hellmich: But you're talking about saving up to go on the holiday in December. Start saving in January, you know, saving now for the lens that you might need next year, rather than, you know, waiting for, you know, December to come around and just borrowing the money, putting it on your credit card and then paying it back later.

Venus Michael: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: Is that right? Like you're talking about saving.

Venus Michael: That's exactly what it is. Yes, that's exactly what it is.

Andrew Hellmich: So with, again, I don't want to age myself too much here. But so with the younger generation, like everyone wants to have every, I mean, I'm the same. We all want to have what we want to have right now, right? We don't want to save. Do you have to fight with your clients, you know, for one over again, of a better term to get them to save or and wait for what they want?

Venus Michael: Necessarily. Um, with my clients, we have conversations around goals quite a bit, and so I kind of know what's coming, but there is that instant gratification. There is an addiction to shopping, stuff like that, that you really have to say, "Okay, this is who you are. So we are going to plan for that." For instance, I have another client, and that is her outlet. That is how she unwinds and decompresses, she shops. And so we have an account that's called, you know, 'Amazon money', so she can buy weird things on Amazon. And I've made sure that I got her percentages in line so she has a healthy buffer in there. It's not 1000s and 1000s of dollars, but it will give her enough money that when she is scrolling, she's like, "Okay, how much can I spend today?" She looks at her account, she's like, "Okay, I've got $100 I can spend today." And so she's a little more selective on her shopping, but she still gets her dopamine hit of shopping for whatever the newest, greatest thing is that TikTok to advertising that she just bought on Amazon, right? So when it comes to saving, we don't necessarily, especially with the younger, younger generation, we don't call it saving. We call it 'goals', like, "What is your goal, and where do you want to be?" And then we may get a little aggressive, like, "If you come to me in July and tell me you want to take December off, we're going to be a little bit more aggressive than dripping 1%", right We're going to be like, "Okay, where can we pull this? And then on the on the flip side of that, if you pull a percentage from your operating then you have to look at your operating account, your money going out, and make sure that you are not overspending there. And so we will look at the expenses and kind of like, trim it down. And the most common one that I trim down when I first start working with people is software, you know, where I'll look at all their software and I'll say, "Okay, well, this is $5 and this is $5 and this", you know, now tell him, "Well, 20 of these $5 makes $100 it starts adding up. Do you use this?" And I promise you, in every conversation I have heard it at least once. "No, I don't use that right now, but I might someday." I'm like, "Okay, well then when someday comes, you can get it again, but for right now, we're going to cancel it", you know. So you always as as any entrepreneur, but especially photographers, because there is so much AI coming at you and so much software coming at you, and the newest, greatest, latest CRM and all this stuff, you want to audit your software list at least once a quarter and ask yourself, "Am I using it, and do I get the value for it?" So if they're charging you $97 and you're only using it 10% of the time, then maybe you're not getting the value for that, right? And if you're like, "Nope, not really getting the value", then you need to look for alternatives or just flat out cancel it. But you should be doing that. And one of the tools that makes that I'm sorry I'm going in five different directions here, but one of the tools that makes that very, very easy to do is to have a debit or credit card that is just software, you know. So all of your auto hits that hit you, you know, for your five, your 10, your 20, your $97, all of your software stuff have that on one debit card or one credit card, so you can easily pull a statement. You're not waiting for the books to get done, you're not looking in an Excel sheet. You're not going through a bunch of different information. You want to pull that one statement and see, "Okay, these are the seven software that I paid for. Here's how much I paid. Am I getting my value?" Yes, no, cancel, keep. You can make those decisions really fast. If you are waiting for the books and trying to dive into a bunch of different reports that are inside of your accounting software, number one, you're not going to do it because it takes too much time. And then a lot of creative entrepreneurs, when they look at that stuff, it literally starts looking Greek to them. And they'll come to me and they'll be like, "Well, I of feel stupid because I don't understand how to read this." And I'm like, "You're not stupid. You're working with the other side of your brain, which makes you brilliant for what you do. You know, your money maker is the other side of the brain." So we try to find all of these little tips and tricks and tools that will help get that information to you quicker in a way that you understand. So if you literally just print out a statement once a month, and all that's on there is your software and there's no other noise on there, then you can very quickly do your software audit and stop where you know five or $10 may be leaking out every month. You want to really condense those expenses down and having a set percentage that you put in your operating account and saying, "This is the money that is dedicated to operating my business", will help keep you there, because you've got a limited resource, you know, you're now you're pulling in the power of Parkinson's Law and having a limited resource to get a job done, you know.

Andrew Hellmich: So you didn't mention things like, you know, Netflix, Stand, Discovery, Audible, would they all be going into or coming out of the profit bucket? Not because it's nothing to do with business, it's more like it's for entertainment?

Venus Michael: Yes. So that would be coming out of the owner's pay bucket. So the owners pay, yeah, that that would be anything that would be a personal expense, not a business expense. Audible, that's a little gray, because it can be a business expense if you're listening to business books. So Audible, I do see that on a lot of books, on a lot of business books. I do keep it on the business books, because it literally can. Netflix on the other side, not so much.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Got it. Okay, so let me take you back to the I guess, the original premise of the interview and the framework that you started with, Profit First. So that's the first bucket, and this is the one I imagine that has the biggest change, the biggest effect on the people that you know buy into this system. What is it? Does it mean that we put aside how much profit we want first?

Venus Michael: Yes, literally, literally, you make a conscious decision to take your Profit First, right?

Andrew Hellmich: So this isn't pay. This is profit. These are two separate things.

Venus Michael: These two things, yes, so you have your owner's pay bucket that pays your salary, that pays you because you work for the business. If you work for corporate America or corporate anywhere, and you didn't get paid, that wouldn't be acceptable. You don't want to accept it from a business you own. So that is your paycheck.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, let me just hold you here, because what if you're primarily talking to a sole trader? So, you know, I've worked for myself. It's my business. Do I still pay myself as a sole trader, or do I just live off the profits?

Venus Michael: No, you need to pay yourself.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, then, so with this system, is there a minimum income, a gross revenue that I have to be bringing in to make this work this system.

Andrew Hellmich: I could talk about all this stuff all day. I've got one more question I want to put to you, specific to John Glaser. I know he's one of your clients, and you said clients are off-limits. But I think we can have a hypothetical question around John and his business, before that, where do we learn what? Where do we get the book? And can we hire you as our bookkeeper?

Venus Michael: Yes. So you get the book is on Amazon, Profit First for Photographers. If you go to the website, profitfirstforphotographers.com there's a link to that and resources that come with it. I have a workbook, I have an Excel sheet. I have a bunch of stuff happening over there. If you want to have a conversation with me, you can start at venusmichael.com. If you are looking specifically for bookkeeping, there is a link at the top of venusmichael.com that takes you to another website. Why I have three websites? I have no idea, because my marketing company made three websites. But my business is called One21 Account-Ability. It has its own website. And then venusmichael.com is where you can talk to me about the book. You can talk to me about speaking that I do, education, anything that I do that's not bookkeeping. But if you just start there you can you can find links to get you where else you want to go.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I'll add links to all those in the show notes to accompany the audio.

Venus Michael: Thank you.

Andrew Hellmich: And just for the for the listener, is the bookkeeping specifically for US residents or business operators only, or does that work across the world as well?

Venus Michael: No, it works across the world, the requirement is you have to be on QuickBooks Online.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so someone's with, say, MYOB or Xero, that have to change over to QuickBooks Online?

Venus Michael: Yes.

Andrew Hellmich: Is that easy?

Venus Michael: Yes, for me, it's easy.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Venus Michael: It's very daunting and upsetting, if you are the business owner trying to change it. But that doesn't mean don't go and seek out another Profit First Professional. If you are using Xero and you love Xero, then start with profitfirstprofessionals.com put your information in and they will pair you up with a US based one. And then there are a couple other countries that have, like, there's, there's a whole Profit First Professionals for Canada, there's a, you know, there's a couple other ones. I'm just not familiar with where they're at. But if you start at profitfirstprofessionals.com start the conversation there with those headquarters. And you're in a different country and need support, like they can direct you to. "Oh, well, here's who we have that is specific to that country."

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Love it, all right. That's amazing, Venus. Last question for you. I know we're running short of time here, and this is a hypothetical, and I know that John is going to weigh in on this interview anyway, once it goes live, but hypothetically, what do you think John would say if I was to ask him, "How is this like, How's it changed your business? Like, going Profit First? Why has it made such a difference? How has it made such a difference? How has it affected your life? What do you think he would say to that?"

Venus Michael: Um, hopefully he would say that it made him look at his business through a different lens. That is literally what I tell people all the time. And what happened with John is he was very successful. He's a great photographer, very successful. He just needed to look at his business a little bit differently to maximize the growth that he is now talking about, and why he wishes he had done this earlier. So I would hope that that is what he would say.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so is someone in John's position. I would have imagined like, I like your answer, but I would have imagined he would say, "I've now got all this spare money to take the family on holidays, to do this, to do that." Yours sounded too busy to me.

Venus Michael: I'm sorry. Well, I'm pretty sure John would say that too, because he has, but it's not all about "I've got all this money." It's all about "I am literally seeing my business differently. It is running as a business. It is supporting itself. It is supporting me." And if you say, "Oh, I've got all this money now", then the next question is, how? Why? You know, "Well, I got all this money now because I'm using Profit First." Well, why did that work? "Because I see my business different now".

Andrew Hellmich: Right, got it. I do like that. I do like that, a lot. We'll wait for John's comments following this episode going live.

Venus Michael: I'm sure there will be.

Andrew Hellmich: Venus, you have been an amazing guest. It's been so much fun talking money and finance with you. And yeah, look, I had a bit of an idea how this worked, but you really cleared it up and opened my eyes to a whole new way of doing business. So massive thanks to you for coming on and sharing we have.

Venus Michael: Thank you so much for having me.

The post 579: Venus Michael – How to apply profit first to your photography business appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

Sam Hollis builds websites for photographers and is an SEO specialist who popped up on my radar when premium member Adrienne Angelo suggested I listen to an episode of the “Shoot To The Top” podcast, where the discussion was focussed on utilising Google Maps to generate leads for your photography business.

Sam is the podcast co-host and runs a web design business with a difference—you pay for your website monthly with no upfront fees and no long-term commitment. If the website isn't working, you don't pay.

In addition to sharing his expertise to help with your SEO, I'm keen to hear his take on the recent nightmares for photographers, mainly in the UK, who have had their Google Business Profile flagged by another photographer and subsequently taken down.

In this interview, Sam shares how to generate photography leads with Google Maps and increase your overall search rankings.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

I select to service an area because the rules on Google are that if you have a pin, you've got to have a permanent signage and people have to come and see you. Effectively, it's like a shop or an office where somebody's always there in office hours and they can come in while the area is more people don't come and see you, you provide services to people within that area. – Sam Hollis

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

Then you want move up the rankings and there's quite a lot you can do. One of the most important is getting reviews. Lots of reviews and regularly. Keep getting them. It might be that you spent six months working hard got ton of reviews and then you stop that still isn't great if a year down the line all your reviews are a year old. – Sam Hollis

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

The only thing you have to be careful of is reciprocal links. So if you did the blog post, wrote about it and then she linked to your blog post, great. If you did the post and your post is also linking to her site and her sites linking to you, Google will go, “Hmmm, they’re just kind of scratching each other's backs,” and doesn't count it as powerfully as if she linked to you. – Sam Hollis

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Sam shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

Always link to the relevant page. Linking to your homepage usually is a bit confusing. If you're promoting something, make sure you've got a page about that very, very specific thing and send them to it. And you can also link within pages so it might be even an offer within your wedding's page and you can link to a specific location of the page. – Sam Hollis

If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask Sam, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

On Google Analytics, which you can plug into your website for free, you can literally see how long people are staying on your page and it gives you averages. But you know, if people are staying on for a minute or so that's pretty impressive. If people are staying on for 10 seconds, you've probably got a problem. So yeah, you can kind of look at how long have they stayed, so that's the first thing. And if they're staying for a short time, then what is there is not engaging or then they're just instantly not liking the look and they're leaving. So then that would be the first thing to work on. But if they were staying and they're still not clicking it means you're not offering them something they want. So you got to really look at your call to actions. – Sam Hollis

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

You've got to have a really clear story, really clear writing on your website that tells all of that story because that's what sets you apart. That's what makes it interesting. That's what people are engaging with. – Sam Hollis

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Website 4 Photographers

Sam Hollis on LinkedIn

Shoot to the Top Website

Shoot to the Top Podcast on Spotify

Shoot to the Top Podcast on Apple

Using Google Maps to get leads – Shoot To The Top Podcast

Thanks again for listening and for Sam's candid thoughts, ideas, and experience in generating more photography leads by utilising Google maps effectively and learning how to rank more effectively for your specific search terms.

In terms of photographers, it's really important to tell your story with words. So, I find lots of photographers think but their photographs are telling their story and telling what's going on. And to me they do that to some extent. But and other photographers will probably look at your pictures and see the technique and see the skills, but actually the general public won’t. – Sam Hollis

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 578: Sam Hollis – How to generate photography leads with Google Maps appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

D'Ann Boal of www.smittenandswoon.com is a phenomenal photographer — professional in every way. Beautifully lit family portraits with natural expressions that look to be so much fun to be a part of for her clients. She has a portfolio most photographers would swap theirs for.

It's part of the reason she is a pro photo ambassador, leads photography retreats, is an instructor at Click Photo School, and a mentor at Click Community. She also has a Master’s degree in education and became a 5th-grade teacher but picked up a camera after her son was born and never looked back.

I love that she shared with me that there have been countless struggles in her 13-year photography journey. She's lost memory cards, been yelled at by clients, charged too little and didn’t feel valued, given away too much and not been thanked, and taken bad pictures without a speck of good light… the list is endless.

She also says and believes that if you value yourself, your success will snowball.

In this interview, D'Ann shares how confident pricing and personal growth is the path to a $4900 average photography sale.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

I've just always thought I want to charge what I feel like my time is worth and what it's worth to me to miss tucking my kids in or miss having dinner with my kids, miss having a sunset with my kids and my family. What is that worth to me and that is where I have put my baseline prices. – D'Ann Boal

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

I never did promotions. I never did incentives. I never wanted to market that way. I did mini sessions maybe for two years and I realized those aren't the clients that are going to value me and that I can give a really high touch experience to so I dropped that. So part of my marketing strategy has been to not do sales, not do promotions. I want the people coming to me that really sought me out and were willing to wait and loved my art and weren't coming for some cheap freebie thing. – D'Ann Boal

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Ensure that there is no ceiling on what a client can purchase. So I never have a package that includes all the digital or that includes all the images in the album, because I want to give my clients the opportunity to purchase more if they have the means and budget and they want to. – D'Ann Boal

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what D'Ann shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

The underlying theme within all my work is gratitude. I'm so grateful for my business. I'm so grateful I get to do this. This is such a fun job. I'm so grateful I get to be profitable and then teach others. – D'Ann Boal

If you have any questions I missed, a specific question you’d like to ask D'Ann, or a way to thank you for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

I'm not so focused on a number. I'm focused on the quality of life that I have. – D'Ann Boal

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

The biggest business tip I have for being more profitable is having in person sales sessions. So if you've got your voice developed and your art is unique to yourself and clients seek it out, and you do in person sales sessions, and your prices are high, and you're giving a lot of value within like welcome guides, and the products you're selling and in every step of the experience the client has with you, your profits are going to be so high. – D'Ann Boal

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

D'Ann Boal Website

D'Ann Boal on Instagram

D'Ann Boal on Facebook

Pixellu SmartAlbums

Profoto

How the Stylish, Breakthrough Z f Can Change the Way You Take Pictures…and Why You’d Want To – Nikon article Featuring D'Ann Boal

Romance, Light & Magic in Photographs with D’Ann Boal via Nikon Creators

Episode 087: Sue Bryce – How to Make Real Money From Your Photography Business Right Now

Thanks again for listening and for D'Ann's candid thoughts, ideas, and experience on getting confident with higher than average pricing and personal photography growth has been the path to a $4900 average photography Sale

The most powerful thing that a person can hear is someone saying their name. It makes them feel so seen. So I use their name right when I greet them. – D'Ann Boal

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 577: D’Ann Boal – Confident Pricing and Personal Growth is the Path to a $4900 Average Photography Sale appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

Richard Waine is a Lancaster-based headshot photographer in the USA who worked most of his career in finance before becoming a very successful photography business owner and operator.

He first appeared on the podcast in episode 372, where we explored the numbers behind building a successful business.

None of that, though, has anything to do with why I've asked him back.

If you've been following the recent chatter on social media, you may have heard about a UK-based photographer and SEO teacher who was advocating the reporting of other photographers who were breaching Google's terms with their Google Business Profile.

These reports see the nominated photographer having their profile removed by Google without warning and a lengthy process to get it back — if they actually can at all.

By having other photographers removed by Google, the remaining photographers move up the search rankings.

Needless to say, the photographer in question has received a lot of flack! His actions have affected photographers I know personally and who are PhotoBizX Premium Members.

If you think you're breaching Google's guidelines, go into your Google profile first and foremost, and understand if you are a physical address type of business with a brick and mortar, then select it. If you service businesses or individuals outside of that particular business address, and you go on location, change it to a hybrid business. If you are in fact the service area, and you cannot host a physical address, then select that. I think that's very important to get the things correct because these are verifiable. – Richard Waine

Anyway, I was on the hunt for a suitable guest to discuss SEO, Google, and what makes a good Google Business Profile listing when today's guest came highly recommended to me by other photographers I know and trust.

In this eye-opening interview where you may learn some difficult lessons, Richard shares how to master your Google Business Profile as a working photographer and avoid having your profile removed by Google for doing the wrong thing.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

There are actually two ranking signals, let's call them, that are inherent in the reviews. The quantity of your reviews is in fact the signal and the star rating is a signal as well. So I have made it my life's mission to get as many of those as I can. And the reason why, in addition to those particular signals is the words that people use, because now I've got content to repurpose, not just taking that and putting it out to the masses, but also working in those sentiments into my own copy. Because now I'm made aware of how my clients felt working with me. And I assure you where there's one there's more, so there are a lot of avenues to look at those reviews through. – Richard Waine

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

The first and foremost thing that I think all of us should do, if you own a business is to scrub your profiles, not just scrub it but make sure it's optimized well and it's properly maintained regularly. – Richard Waine

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

We have to educate ourselves. I think that if we're not doing those things, we're dropping the ball in one of many areas. Because not only is Google Business Profile, a form of local advertising, right, but it is also directly feeding into Google Maps. And remember, Google loves when you when you work with their properties. So we've got Google Business Profile, we got Google Maps, we've got Google search. All of their properties kind of come into play. And what happens when we're utilizing all of those platforms is that we make ourselves more searchable, easier to find. And believe me, people looking for business providers don't want to go to page 10 looking for somebody to help them. We want convenient. We want ease. We want the best for the job quality. – Richard Waine

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Richard shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

As we go through the profiles, there may be a propensity to leave things blank. Don't leave anything unchecked or incomplete. Because the completeness of your profile is a ranking signal as well. So don't leave any stone unturned.- Richard Waine

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Richard, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

A review can make or break a business. You monitor them like their gold because my reputation is gold. At least to me it is, and hopefully my clients feel the same way. – Richard Waine

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

Google makes up its own mind. Remember that while Google is a very useful tool for us as business owners, it's still Google's gain. They are not our friends. They're not even our enemy. They're just a tool in the toolbox. So we shouldn't look at them like a like a friend. They're not an ally. Google is a revenue generating behemoth. That's about it. The only thing on Google's mind is serving up better content so that they can get ad revenue, and they can make money in other ways. So for them, this is all a means to an end. And for us, we're looking at it like it's their fault. No, they're in it for themselves. Why aren’t we? – Richard Waine

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Richard Waine Website

Richard Waine on Facebook

Richard Waine on Instagram

Richard Waine on LinkedIn

Richard Waine Email

SEOFOMO Newsletter

Verify your business on Google

Prohibited & restricted content – Maps User Contributed Content Policy

How to use a service area on Google for service-area & hybrid businesses

Guidelines for representing your business on Google

Google Business Profile Video Verification [SOLVED] A Step-by-Step Guide on YouTube

Episode 372: Richard Waine – How to achieve financial success as a photographer

Episode 425: Jeff Brown – How to use LinkedIn for photography lead generation

Thanks again for listening and for Richard's candid thoughts, ideas, and experience on best using your Google Business Profile and maximising your presence on its platform for better rankings, more clicks, and, ultimately, more leads, bookings, and sales.

I wholeheartedly believe that the easier you can make it for a client to give you a five star review, the better off you're going to be. In my case, I stick a QR code in front of the client at the end of the session. I say, “Do me a favor, hit this QR code with your cell phone.” It pops up, I say “This is where I asked for the favour of a five star Google review if you think I'm worthy of it.” How hard is that? – Richard Waine

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

Andrew Hellmich: Today's guest worked most of his career in finance before becoming a very successful headshot photographer. He first appeared on the podcast for Episode 372 where we dive deep into the numbers of what it takes to build a successful business. None of that, though, has anything to do with why I'm asked him back onto the podcast today. If you've been following the recent chatter on social media, you may have heard about a UK based photographer and SEO teacher who is or was advocating the reporting of other photographers who were breaching Google's terms with their Google business profile. Now these reports, they see the nominated photographer having their profile removed by Google with no warning and a lengthy process to get it back, if they actually can at all. Now the reason for doing this is by having other photographers removed by Google, the photographers that remained, moved up in the search rankings. Now it's needless to say, the photographer in question has copped a lot of flak, and his actions have affected photographers I know personally and who are PhotobizX premium members. Anyway, I was on the hunt for a suitable guest to discuss SEO Google and what makes a good Google Business Profile listing and a legal one, as far as Google's concerned. And today's guest came highly recommended to me by other photographers I know and trust. I'm talking about Richard Waine and I am rapt to have him back with us now. Richard, welcome back.

Richard Waine: Thank you, Andrew. It's great to be here. It's good to see you again.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, how is business for you? Before we get into the Google stuff, is it still thriving?

Richard Waine: Well, I guess that depends on what you consider thriving, because I completed my entire pipeline before I took vacation for two weeks. So now I'm in the rebuild my pipeline space. But, yeah, I'm still flying pretty high.

Andrew Hellmich: So when you say pipeline, is that your funnel? Is that another name or word for funnel?

Richard Waine: Yeah, it's just my workload and who's scheduled. And you know what it takes to get that schedule all filled up. You know otherwise we're not making money if the schedule is not filled.

Andrew Hellmich: True, true. So how's your revenue today compared to when I talked to you a couple of years ago? You know, has it steadily increased? Has it stayed flat line? Has it dropped?

Richard Waine: In my particular case, it has dropped a little bit. And the reason why it has is solely because I dedicated quite a bit of time to taking care of my elderly father. So it is not an example of me doing something incorrectly, or the market or the economy, but rather, I decided to prioritize my family.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. How is your father now?

Richard Waine: He's still vertical. I haven't killed him yet. He's doing great. Yeah. He's 87 years old, and I look after him because I certainly don't want to bury him earlier than I have to, but he's doing well. Thank you for asking.

Andrew Hellmich: Look, I normally have no worries asking any questions on this podcast, but that is one I didn't know the answer to at all, and I was worried to ask. But I'm glad that he's doing well. So is your business that flexible? Or can you be that flexible with your income stream that you can just turn it off, turn it on, reduce it, pick it up.

Richard Waine: I like the flexibility of owning my own business where I can, but my income stream stays relatively consistent, you know. And it's not just an income stream. I should qualify that and say it's income streams, plural. And I think that's kind of the missing piece of that equation, is that I can let up the gas in one area and be completely fine on the other sources of income, but I can always come back to it and push down a little harder on the accelerator, and we're right back to where we should be.

Andrew Hellmich: So are the other income streams photography related, or is photography feeding those income streams to give you a return?

Richard Waine: Partially both. You may or may not know this, Andrew, but I moonlight in some ways as a front-end web developer, and I only do that for photographers. I do that at my leisure. It is not an advertised business. It pretty much just gets around by word of mouth. And the reason why I do that stems from the fact that I have a photography business, and when I first established my own website, I wanted to customize it beyond my capability, so I went out and I started learning the languages necessary to make my site do what I wanted it to do. But I did not believe that I could accomplish that without knowing the other side of a very important equation, which is search engine optimization and all of the marketing tools that go into that kind of optimization. And while I understand those are completely and totally separate professions, I don't see them as being unlinked in any way. So I decided to take the bull by the horns, and I do it all in one pill swoop. So it kind of broadened my horizons quite a bit.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so when you say Front-End Web Development or design that's making the website look good, does that also include functionality and SEO, or is that back end now we're talking about?

Richard Waine: No, you're still in the front-end, back-end, or is definitely not an area that I'm comfortable in, and I know there are many other people that are way more capable than I. So it is the look, the function, the feel, of course, the optimization of it, that's all involved.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so this is why your name came up when I was on the hunt for someone who knows SEO and Google. So have you heard or had you heard anything about this photographer in the UK reporting other photographers to help themselves move up the rankings?

Richard Waine: I had not heard of this example until I actually read it in your group, through the post the Facebook group. And I'll be very frank, I wasn't surprised, and I'm not surprised because it happens more often than we realize. This just seems to be making bigger waves. That's all.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So when you say it happens more often than we realize, do you mean by other photographers or people that, are other photographers are hiring SEO experts to go and do it for them or on their behalf?

Richard Waine: These types of things happen in every industry, not just photography. I hear about it through other photographers, of course, because this is a space that I have more knowledge of and I'm more involved in, but yeah, in every industry, this kind of thing happens. And I think that we're all pretty much in tune why it happens. People feel threatened. It's really simple. It's a simple equation. If you want more money to flow to you make sure everybody else can't earn a living.

Andrew Hellmich: That sounds drastic, severe, like cruel, even.

Richard Waine: Yes. And you know, let me say this, I don't know why this person decided to take these actions. Maybe they really felt as if there were real violations on these profiles, and then it's incumbent on all of us to make the web a better place. But I think these matters are more or this particular method was way more extreme than it needed to be, and I think it happens way more often because somebody feels threatened in their own business and their own ability to market. I don't think that this was the appropriate approach, but I also don't have all of the details.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure. So, I mean, I guess we have to speak a little bit in hypotheticals, because I don't know all the details as well. But what I said in the group, when I made that post, because I had been reading and hearing about it myself, I said, "I can see both sides. I can see the side of the photographer that's being reported and being absolutely disgusted, upset, angry, because they're basically seeing their profile disappear before their eyes. But I can also then see the other side where, well, if I have a premises and it's registered with Google, and you're my competitor, for want of a better word, is working from home, and you're saying you see clients there, but you don't really, then you're doing the wrong thing and I'm doing the right thing. Why should you be getting the benefits that I'm getting?"

Richard Waine: Yeah, so I'd say that there's a right way and a wrong way to go about this. There really is a right way and a wrong way to go about it. The first and foremost thing that I think all of us should do if you own a business, is to scrub your profiles. Not just scrub it, but make sure it's optimized well and it's properly maintained regularly.

Andrew Hellmich: What do you mean by scrub it?

Richard Waine: Meaning go through it with a fine tooth comb.

Andrew Hellmich: Right.

Richard Waine: Make sure the details are not overlooked. I think one of the biggest things that most photographers especially, but most business owners across the board, fail to realize is that this is not a set it and forget it kind of thing. This is very much a regular maintenance type of activity, and it should be taken as such. Now there are, of course, dare I say, guidelines, standards, things that you should absolutely have on your profile. And what we're talking about here, I believe, is whether or not you have a brick and mortar shop, or are you in a service area, or even a hybrid of the two. There is a fine line here. I have a brick and mortar studio, right? I also go out and serve my clients on location, right? So does that make me a service area business? Partially. Does it make me a physical business? Yes. So I guess that's exactly why Google created the hybrid platform. Or should I say, the setting for a hybrid business.

Andrew Hellmich: Do one of those three options yield a better search result for the photographer, for the business owner?

Richard Waine: So there's been some back and forth here. Okay, having a service area does not give you a fixed point from which Google can pull from. For instance, in the local search for 'photographer near me'. Well, what are they going to pull from? What's near you, if you're covering all of this area, where are they going to pull from? Almost everything is in a triangulated type of shape. If you ever do a search for, let's just say 'wedding photographer near me', right? So you'll get at least three different results. And if you do a some form of triangulation between them, right, you'll see that they're not always the closest to each other. There might be two that are closer and one a little further away, but in either case, there is a triangle there, and it's based on proximity. But with service area, you cannot do that, right? It's just these are the areas I cover. So, you know, having a fixed point from which to draw from is more useful, I think, but that's not applicable, nor realistic for every business, right? I cannot tell you that there's necessarily a way around that. If you don't actually have a physical location, you don't really have a choice.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. So there's so many things I want to throw at you and get a response, and also hear what you have to say, and I want to come back to some of the things you've already said. But one thing that came up in the group was that photographers are saying, "I feel silly for not even knowing that this was something I needed to know. There's so many things I need to know in my business, this was so easy to overlook and miss." I mean, you can be as harsh as your life, but what do you say to those photographers?

Richard Waine: I would say it might be time to start educating yourself, right? Not that what you've done is incorrect. Most business owners don't actually know their own, you know, expenses. They don't know how much they should be setting aside for their expenses. They don't know their numbers off the top of their head. We talked about some of that in the last episode that we recorded together, right? None of that really surprises me, right? And one of the reasons why is because when you think about what photography as a business is, is most people think 'we stick a camera in this general direction, push a button, generate an image, get paid for it, have a nice day', right? It's a very simple formula for a lot of people, right? But there's so much more involved in operating a business, especially because gone are the days of the Yellow Pages, at least in the United States, the phone book, where we would just kind of open it up, find a service provider. That guy looks good, we'll go ahead and call them and get some information. But now we have websites, and we have other ways to find information on people, and this is just the next iteration, right? We have to educate ourselves. I think that if we're not doing those things, we're dropping the ball in one of many areas, because not only is Google Business Profile a form of local advertising, right, but it is also directly feeding into Google Maps. And remember, Google loves when you work with their properties. So we've got Google Business Profile, we've got Google Maps, we've got Google Search, all of their properties kind of come into play, and what happens when we're utilizing all of those platforms is that we make ourselves a more searchable, easier to find, right? And believe me, people looking for business providers don't want to go to page 10 looking for somebody to help them. We want convenient, we want ease. We want the best for the job quality, right? And so there's a lot of things involved in that search and in that flow that I think that business owners at large may be missing. If that's not you, for instance, then that's okay. Good, you're educated. Congratulations. I'm really ecstatic, because the more informed we are, the better off we are positioned as an industry, and rising tides raise all ships, which is what I think this other photographer kind of missed out on, is that by shooting other photographers in the foot they didn't really do the industry any service.

Andrew Hellmich: No

Richard Waine: But, you know, but there are a lot of platforms at play here, Andrew, and I think it's really important that we educate ourselves, right? So don't let that fall through the cracks, because not only are you missing out on potential income for yourself, right, but you're also missing out on an ability to boost your own perceived level of expertise.

Andrew Hellmich: I mean, to some degree, do you feel like, I know it's not just photographers, but do you feel like we, we try and game the system a little bit for an advantage? I know, for example, when I interviewed Jeff Brown, he's a LinkedIn expert.

Richard Waine: I know Jeff, he's great.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, just great. So in the beginning, when he first presented a course for my listeners, he would get us to change our name. So I would be, you know, Andrew Hellmich Wedding Photographer Terrigal. That would be my actual name in LinkedIn, which was really breaching their guidelines, but it was a great way to come up on a profile. Now he's since changed his tone or tune on that strategy. But you know, that's a way of gaming the system to sort of get found more easily and rise to the top. But it's not the right way in regards to the terms. Do you think we do that a lot in the photography industry?

Richard Waine: Absolutely, everybody's looking for a leg up. Everybody's looking for the next hack or a magic bullet, right? I think it happens again more often than we realize. There was a great example some time ago in some of the journals that I read, the E magazines and such, where somebody literally named their business. It was on the awning out front of their business, and this was a Thai restaurant. "Said, Thai food near me".

Andrew Hellmich: That's so good.

Richard Waine: So they've got a legitimate business name, right? That says near me, and they're gonna, so yeah, somebody might actually find that. I believe, and you might not quote me on this, that violated Google's guidelines. Google has a very, very extensive library of white papers and guidelines, etc. A great example of this would be when people wonder why their reviews were taken down or were never posted or something along those lines, and say, "Well, what happened? Well, you know, look at the guidelines, because they are really extensive, but I have always found that folks aren't going to read something that extensive. They just aren't. They don't have the attention span for it. If you feel so inclined, if you look at some of that stuff, they'll tell you exactly why something might have gotten taken down. I had that happen once as well. I have this propensity during my sessions to look at somebody and say, "Okay, show me more badass. I want you to see more", right? Just something like that, and just off the cuff, not even thinking that, well, in the review, my client said, "Yes, I felt like such a badass", taken down right away.

Andrew Hellmich: Wow

Richard Waine: Why do you think?

Andrew Hellmich: Obviously, because of that word.

Richard Waine: Language. Yeah, absolutely, right?, and they're very explicit about those types of violations. So my point here is that when they publish these types of guidelines, we should absolutely be aware of what's in them. So when we're thinking about service area businesses and hybrid businesses and brick and mortar, type of businesses, physical address, what are the guidelines for having, right? That's the big thing. What qualifies you as one over the other, right? And then make the best choice for your business.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I like that. You said earlier, Richard, there's a right way and a wrong way to approach this, or that this other photographer could have approached things. So let me give you a hypothetical, let's say you know you have your successful brick and mortar business, and Joe Blow headshot photography down the road opens up. He's working from home, and he has a Google profile listing, and he's listing his home address, but he doesn't have a brick and mortar business, and he's rising up through the rankings, which is a bit frustrating for you. How do you handle it? What do you do?

Richard Waine: I honestly with me personally, I wouldn't care, because I have too many other things to worry about, building my own business, to worry about whether or not somebody has opened a shop and they're doing well out of their own home, right? Again, rising tides raise all ships, okay? And while I understand in some markets, is far more competitive, right? I understand we're all trying to make a living and that gets increasingly harder, but I would say that where you rank in the map pack, if you're familiar with that term, map pack.

Andrew Hellmich: No, no. What does that mean?

Richard Waine: When you do a search, let's say for wedding photographers, the first listings might be three listings that have a map right next to them, right, showing you the locations. Somebody rising up through the map pack, that's great, good for them, right? But I also know what my value is. I also know my client base, and I don't necessarily think that somebody making waves in their own business is going to affect mine necessarily, because if their efforts are going, you know, in building their own business, are going to be damaging my own efforts. I have to look inward first. How is it that I am allowing this? Meaning, what am I not doing, right? Where am I dropping the ball? So yes, there's a right way and a wrong way. I'd like to give you another example from my own business. Actually, there was another photographer who reached out to me. They live approximately 45 minutes from me, well within my service area. And another guideline might be this, don't plagiarize other people's stuff on their website. This person absolutely plagiarized, literally copied verbatim an entire section of my website. Now I had two options at this point. I could certainly have filled out some form of Google redressal form, right? I certainly could have reached out to Google and said, you know, they're plagiarizing my stuff, right? That's first, we could have and I take it back, there are three options. So I could have just let it be, and Google's own matriculation and crawl budget would have probably said, "You know what? This guy had the content first. This is plagiarism. We're going to demote this other person's website", so that's an option, or you could be, what I'd like to say is a little bit more gentlemanly, and reach out to that particular person and ask some questions, right? In this case, what I did was I took screenshots of their website, okay? And I screenshotted my own website. And I said, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but your content is verbatim what's on mine. I'd like to ask that you remove this particular content. Now, in that particular case, this person deflected in some way and blamed it on the web designer. Okay, we all know how that goes, right? And having done this kind of thing, I tell all of my clients, and every one of them will attest I will not write content. I will take what you give me and simply place it there, right? I may optimize a couple of words here and there, you know, based on the SEO component, but I'm going to take what you give me and put it there, so I can't really say it's a web designer issue.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure.

Richard Waine: So they did deflect. They blamed it on the web designer. They were apologetic, right? And in fact, they did take it down.

Andrew Hellmich: Good result.

Richard Waine: Good result for everybody. Of course, I kept that conversation open. I said, "Look, I'm happy to entertain any questions. If you'd like to bounce ideas off of me, here's my telephone number. Pick up the phone. Let's have a conversation like adults. I'm okay with that. I think that's a much better way of doing it than submarining the rest of your competition, because you don't like how they set up a Google Business Profile.

Andrew Hellmich: Right, right. So from what you're saying, I'm going to extrapolate that out to my original example. If someone had attended this photography in questions workshops, and he's telling them to report to Google, instead, they could just message, email, call the photographer in question, say "You've got an incorrect listing. You really service an area. You don't have a brick and mortar business. Can you make that change?".

Richard Waine: Yes, how difficult would that be, right?

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, and how refreshingly nice as well.

Richard Waine: Right. I would have way more respect for somebody that went about it in that way. Now, respect does not equal currency, but you have my infinite respect should you handle it gentlemanly.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, I agree.

Richard Waine: But in this case, I wonder if this person genuinely thought they were doing the right thing by having Google take down all of these listings, because Google is, I gotta tell you, in my dealings with Google, there's so many layers to this organization. It's insane, just because you think you're speaking with one department, right? For instance, I had some issues with reviews being taken down, and I could not, for a long time, actually reply to reviews. I wanted to have some of that dealt with. At some point, I got frustrated. It was about a year in the making trying to get the ability to reply to reviews. This was a glitch in their system. So at some point I said, "Is there a manager I could speak with somebody?" "Oh, well, we don't have any of those here." They're in a different office elsewhere, and they're literally all over the place, so getting them to do anything could be problematic, right? And they may not ask questions, right? They may not know what questions to ask. They may not have context on the entire situation. For them, it's cut and dry. If it violates the guidelines, it's done, very simple equation.

Andrew Hellmich: And that's exactly what was happening, by all accounts, in this circumstance.

Richard Waine: Yeah, it's a very confusing organization to understand who to speak to about what. You only have one option, it's the Google help, right? You can't really pick up a telephone and call them. You have to submit a ticket. Eventually they get back to you. You have no idea what their capabilities are, or whether or not you're going to receive a solution right away. And it does get really frustrating after a time. I can't lie about that. Like I said, I spent more than a year trying to get the ability to reply to reviews back because of a glitch.

Andrew Hellmich: Crazy

Richard Waine: And I got news for you. I still have a glitch in my own profile, like, yeah, and they're aware of it, but there's nothing anybody can do. So it's just biding my time. As it relates to this particular situation, I have a feeling this person knew exactly what was going to happen one way or another, right? So it feels quite vindictive to me. All right? I think there was a better way to handle it, and I think they missed an opportunity to show that they were, you know, above board. And I think they missed it.

Andrew Hellmich: I agree. I agree. So what would you say to the listener who has a Google Business Profile and they're not sure they're doing the right thing? I mean, I know, yes, go back and read the white papers, but like, what's the immediate action they should be taking when they hear this in case they are breaching Google's guidelines?

Andrew Hellmich: Richard, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for saying yes. Thank you for fitting this in at such a quick time. And I am truly looking forward to getting this out to listeners as quick as I can, because, yeah, what you shared is so valuable. And again, massive, massive thanks for coming on and sharing your expertise with us.

Richard Waine: Of course, Andrew, it's my pleasure. I just want to throw a couple of add ons onto this, things that we didn't talk about. As we go through the profiles right, there may be a propensity to leave things blank, right? You may or may not be a woman led owned business. Well, if you're not, don't leave it unchecked. Just click No, because the completeness of your profile is a ranking signal as well, right? So don't leave any stone unturned.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And Google sends me personally, I get emails saying, "Hey, you've got a couple of things you haven't finished", so I should go in and finish those things. That's why they're reminding me.

Richard Waine: Yes, I'll send you a couple of links as well, Andrew, things that I think that would be helpful both for your listeners and for yourself personally, some documentation from Google and some other tidbits that might be helpful. But I really do want to encourage people to dive in there. It's not a set it and forget it kind of platform. Go and put pictures up on a daily basis, put fresh content in the way of update posts up there. The big faux pas is, when it comes to that kind of content is just don't duplicate yourself. Don't put the same picture up anywhere else on the Google platform. Put it up on your website, put it up on Instagram. All that's fine, but when it comes to Google, don't put the same picture up twice. Don't put the same content up twice, right? They're trying to thin down the amount of duplication effort out there, that's all. They're making better quality.

Andrew Hellmich: So you said images there, but if I know that, I can write blog posts on Google for my pro, but I shouldn't duplicate a blog post on my website and have that same blog post on Google. Should I?

Richard Waine: No, well, I don't think that it would be helpful to you to do the same exact post, so you might want to change some stuff up there, but what I'm referring to is, if you go to your Google Business Profile and you add a photo, and let's just say we've got this beautiful picture of Andrew, and he's got his big smile on his face, and we post that picture right, and then the next day, I take that same picture and try to put it up again, Google will reject it. And the reason they're rejecting it is because it's the same picture you just put up yesterday. Okay? The same exact concept happens with update posts, right? If the exact content has been put up again the next day, they'll reject it. Here's where things get a little iffy. Is that if I put up just a regular picture, that beautiful picture of you smiling up there, if I put that up in the photo section of Google Business Profile, and then I create an update post, right? with words, and I try to use that same picture, they'll reject it because he used the same picture already.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Richard Waine: So don't duplicate yourself. That's the big faux pas there.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. I mean, you literally can't, by the sound of it, it tells you that, "Hey, this is duplicate."

Richard Waine: That's correct. But if you do that more than a couple of times, they're gonna go, "We have an issue here", right? And I can't tell you what their action might be. You might end up being suspended, right? You might be in a worse position than that. I really can't say what they're going to do or what they would do, but remember, it's a tool like any other, right? It's just the same here. Here's a great concept, Google Business Profile is the exact same thing, like it's a tool, just like PhotobizX is a learning tool, right? That's all, right. It's not responsible for your problems, but it's also not going to be your ally in trying to get ahead, either, right? It's just another tool, right? So you can't lay the blame at Google's feet if the rankings got shaken up a little bit because they decided to refine their algorithm. You know, pardon my French, but shit happens. We're going to have to put our big boy pants on and adjust. Go with the flow, right? It just is what it is. They're doing it for a reason, and usually that reason has more to do with their bottom line than ours.

Andrew Hellmich: 100%. They're not thinking about us when they make their decisions. Not personally anyone.

Richard Waine: No, sir. Not at all. So there's the rest of my thought. I appreciate you giving me that.

Andrew Hellmich: Absolutely. I didn't ask you, Richard, so for the listener that wants to get in touch with you, should they do that via the members Facebook group? Should they email you? Should they go through your social, what's the best way to get in touch with you?

Richard Waine: Yeah, they can certainly do either. My email address is info, I, N, F, O, at, richardwaine.com Richard W, A, I, N, E.com. My website is richardwaine.com. My socials are all on my website as well. I'm happy to entertain conversation from anybody. Happy to do it.

Andrew Hellmich: Fantastic. I'll add links to all those, and I'm sure we're going to see some questions popping up in the group as well. And like I said earlier, massive thanks for coming on and sharing your expertise, Richard, it really has been a pleasure.

Richard Waine: Pleasure it's all mine. Andrew, thank you for having me back.

The post 576: Richard Waine – Master Your Google Business Profile… Top Tips for Photographers appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

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Ayla Quellhorst of www.aylaquellhorst.com is a retired U.S. Air Force Photojournalist. She comes from a blue-collar family that lived paycheck to paycheck but made her way through university to graduate with a degree in business administration.

Her main studio shoots only boudoir photography and generates a revenue of $700,000 annually.

Her husband opened his own boudoir studio this year, and they are projecting $100,000 in sales this first year.

She and her husband work full-time in the business and employ a makeup artist and a product advisor—I wasn't entirely sure what that is, but we find out in the interview

Ayla told me that she sees herself as a businessperson first and a photographer second.

She has presented at Shutterfest in 2022, written multiple published posts on helping other photographers succeed and is passionate about seeing other photographers get profitable and make a terrific living through photography.

In this interview, Ayla shares how her passion led to a simple recipe for a very profitable boudoir photography business.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

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I want people to love where they are right now, knowing that they can still make adjustments, they can still change things that they want to. – Ayla Quellhorst

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In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Ayla shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

It's not my place to tell you that your body's not beautiful. I'm going to show you what I'm seeing and what I think is beautiful, and then you can tell me ‘yes’ or ‘no’. We have five base poses we use for all of our clients, and then I might tweak from there. But every client is shot the same way because we want them to see that they're beautiful how they are. And I'm not going to put that judgment on them in our studio. And I think our clients really appreciate that. – Ayla Quellhorst

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Ayla, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

My love is really with these women, and hearing their stories, and learning about them, and helping a lot of them, in a way, navigate some life challenges that they've faced. I've been through a lot, and so it not only I think are the shoots helping them, but it's also helps me, because I realized that like as women, a lot of us have been through similar things, and not even just women, because we photograph a lot of men now too, and we're finding men are actually more self conscious than the women we get in and so I think it's just really that that piece of empowerment, is really just what I gravitate to. – Ayla Quellhorst

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

Everything for us is very strategic, and we try to focus on like, the psychology of it. Like, the more yeses I can get before asking for a sale, the better. – Ayla Quellhorst

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Ayla Quellhorst Website

Ayla Quellhorst on Facebook

Ayla Quellhorst on Instagram

Ayla Quellhorst on TikTok

Ayla Quellhorst Shibari Photography Portfolio

Thanks again for listening and to Ayla for coming on and sharing her candid thoughts, ideas and experience on creating a successful and highly profitable boudoir photography business based on her passion and drive to have women feeling great about themselves.

We've really made a point to have different body types and different color tones and like all the range of people in our studio, because we think it's important that everybody be able to have this experience. And we don't Photoshop like we don't use liquify on any of our clients. And I think that's really important too. – Ayla Quellhorst

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 575: Ayla Quellhorst – A simple recipe for a very profitable boudoir photography business appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

Katie Phillips of www.katiephillipsphotography.com.au was first interviewed only last year for episode 514. At that time, she shared what I thought was a killer marketing idea for family portrait photographers and how successful it had been for her – in the last two years.

She booked a year of sessions the first time she did this and earned $75,000. The following year, it was bigger and better again.

Then, we were chatting last month, and I learned she's booked months in advance again and is having some incredible sales, too.

This is done through her Mummahood Project, which is based on a local photography exhibition featuring real families from her community.

This is an absolute no-brainer idea as it has everything a working photographer could want: bookings from local families, the freedom to shoot in your style, terrific sales, acclaim in your community, and a real photography exhibition.

Why every photographer isn't doing this is beyond me.

In this interview, Katie shares how to use photography exhibitions as a lead generator and sales machine for photographers.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

Katie Phillips Photography, Photography for Jemma Grisbrook – Mummahood Portrait Photography 2023 with Katie Phillips, captured at Cooma, 2022 and by Katie Phillips Photography

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

I think it's really important to have that connection because I'm a mum, I'm talking to mums, we form a bond over those moments that we're on the phone. And I usually leave about 15 minutes for the phone call. But I'm going to have to revise that because the last two phone calls that I took was 45 minutes long, which is not great for efficiency, but you just start getting talking about kids. And, you know, I think I had my two year old roaring around in the background and profusely apologizing. And my client was laughing her head off, because she had her two year old roaring around in the background. So it was kind of like a really lovely moment where we could just be real with each other. And I think that really builds rapport and trust. – Katie Phillips

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

I find it really difficult to keep track of text messages and messengers. And I just found it a lot easier if I talk to somebody. I can get the information straight away. We can have a conversation, then it's done. I'm not having to go backwards and forwards on Messenger. – Katie Phillips

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Katie Phillips Photography, Photography for Cody Burton Family Portrait Photography 2023 with Katie Phillips, captured at Jindabyne, 2022 and by Katie Phillips Photography

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Katie shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

If I don't put those policies in place and those professional boundaries in place, I'm not only doing them a disservice, because that's, thinking poorly of them as well that they're not able to handle me saying ‘no', but it's also doing my family a disservice to because I'm not able to be there for them and for me. I deserve some time off too. – Katie Phillips

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Katie, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

Katie Phillips Photography, Photography for Annie Jeffries-Mithchell, Family Portrait Photography 2023 with Katie Phillips, captured at Cooma, 2022 and by Katie Phillips Photography

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

I really try and work with them to make sure that the wall art is right for their home, but also right for their budget as well. And if it's not, well, then we work together to find a way through. – Katie Phillips

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

I'm really about community as well. So bringing people together is something that's really important to me and enabling those connections. So, yeah, it was a beautiful thing to do. – Katie Phillips

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Family Portrait Photography, Photography for Kirri Willliams 2023 with Katie Phillips, captured at Cooma, 2022 and by Katie Phillips Photography

Katie Phillips Website

Katie Phillips on Instagram

Katie Phillips on Facebook

Katie Phillips Email

Episode 514: Katie Phillips – Photography exhibitions as a marketing strategy and much more

Episode 545: Katie and Jez – How to elevate your photography business

Katie and Jeremy – Elevate Business Intensive

Katie Phillips Photography, Photography for Jayne #2 Family Portrait Photography 2023 with Katie Phillips, captured at Cooma, 2022 and by Katie Phillips Photography

Thanks again for listening, and thanks to Katie for coming back and sharing her thoughts, ideas, and experience in creating a long-term and successful marketing campaign based around creating a local photography exhibition.

I'm absolutely and definitely scared of something falling through the cracks in my business. I'm very much a people pleaser. I don't want to ever disappoint somebody. So, Asana has helped me to streamline that and make sure that I can keep everything on track, and not lose what's going on and get completely overwhelmed. And it's also really good for my mental health too, because I don't have that fear sitting on my shoulders anymore. And I don't have that overwhelm anymore. So even with just that it was revolutionary. – Katie Phillips

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

Katie Phillips: Hi. How are you? Great to be here?

Andrew Hellmich: It's good to have you back. I mean, we chat occasionally, and it's always it feels like chatting to an old friend now, which is amazing. How do you feel about this Mummahood Project. I mean, is it, does it still surprise you? Or are you waiting for it to fizzle out?

Katie Phillips: Honestly, I sort of have to pick my jaw up off the floor every time I put something out there about it, I just get inundated with people wanting to be a part of it. And this is gonna sound really, really funny, but when the exhibition was on in March. It was really beautiful. We had such an incredible response from the community to it. And I had, sorry, I'm laughing because it sounds so stupid this, it's so funny. I had people stopping me in the supermarket who I had no idea who they were, and they're like, "You're Katie, aren't you? I've seen your exhibition. It's fantastic. How do I be a part of that?" And it's just been really lovely. So I felt like a little bit of a celebrity there for a tiny split second. So it was very nice.

Andrew Hellmich: That is nice. Who doesn't want to be recognized in the local community, that's pretty cool.

Katie Phillips: The right things.

Andrew Hellmich: True, true, true.

Katie Phillips: Thanks so much!

Andrew Hellmich: For anyone who hasn't heard the first interview from last year, can you give us, like a bit of a broad outline of how the project works? What is it?

Katie Phillips: Absolutely. So, I guess for any photographer, it can be on anything you want. But for me, I'm really about uplifting mums and being a feminist and being a mum. I really want to provide a platform and a place for women, and particularly mums, to to be celebrated and seen. And so that's, that's the sort of niche that I've picked. But I mean, look, you could do it for cats, you could do it for dogs, you could do it for families. You could do it for dads. You could do it for whatever you want, car photography. And basically, what I do is I put together a post on Facebook, I then put it into the local groups so I don't spend anything on advertising. I literally put it on the notice boards, or whatever they're called. Yeah, the local notice boards and community groups, parent groups in my local area, and have a sign up page on my website that's linked to that particular post. People go in, they fill out a pretty lengthy questionnaire, which kind of provides a bit of vetting, and it includes, you know, questions like, what's your experience of motherhood? What's something that's been really challenging, what's something that's been really beautiful for you? Is there any advice you would give to your younger self? And it also has questions around whether they want to join my mailing list, and what sort of things they want to do with their photos afterwards, whether they're just interested in the free print, or if they want to put things on their wall, if they want digitals. So I get a bit of an idea of not only who they are and how their family operates and their experience of motherhood, but also how they value photography as well. And so once they feel that questionnaire in, I enter it all into my system. Well, actually, it's all automated because thank goodness for our CRMs. And once they do that, they go into my sort of my workflow, so they'll get sent out an invitation to book a call with me. And so from that call, I then get to chat to them, and it gives me the option to invite them in or to gently let them go, if that makes sense. So once I chat to them, and honestly, nine times out of 10, it's fabulous. And we book in a session there, and we start to sort of think about planning. I've got an incredible client closet as well. So I sort of talk about the dresses that I have available for the mums so that they feel like queens, and I send them through a style guide after the call. And I also, during the call, I talk about what happens after their session, which is the print meeting, because I'm an IPS photographer, so I want them to understand that, yes, they can walk away with their free print, which is included in the session, and they can either have their free print or they can swap it for a $200 credit to go towards some big wall art or something else that they want to create for their home. But it's not all for free, and so I really want to make it very transparent and clear that if they do want to walk away with their free print, totally fine, but if they want to do something more than just have one image, because they fall in love with them, and it's very hard to narrow it down to just one, then they will have to pay for it. And so once our meeting's done, we say goodbye, we've booked in our session time, and then I send them through all the information, so that's styling guide and print information contract and all that sort of stuff. And just sort of have these touch points leading up to their session. Then we have their session, and then after their session, we book in their IPs meeting, and then we go and do that, and they see their beautiful photos. We have a gorgeous slideshow that takes them through, and they sometimes cry, which is lovely. I always bring tea and biscuits, which is nice to have a bit of a party. And then we work out what they want to do with their photos. So if they just want the one, which they never just want the one, which is why I've brought in the credit so that they can swap their one photo print for a $200 credit instead. And so that sort of gives them the option to look at these beautiful artworks that are, you know, reasonably pricey, and go, "Well, I've got this credit, so that brings it down, and it makes them more affordable". And I have payment plans that they're able to utilize as well, so I want to make it as accessible and stress free as humanly possible. And yeah, so at that meeting, we'll look through and I use ProSelect to help them to create something beautiful for their home, or whether they want to do a photo album or a photo book or a series, or I've had clients do massive wall art things and just huge, big prints and stuff, so that's really lovely. Or they might want to do, like, a little series of, you know, different photos, and we can arrange that in ProSelect. If you guys use ProSelect, you know how fabulous it is. And then if they're on a payment plan, they pay that out, and once it's paid out, they get their prints, which is really fun.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, there's a ton to unpack there, but so I think one of the things you haven't mentioned is like, what's, well, first of all, there's an exhibition as well, you haven't mentioned that. So everyone that you photograph, they go into an exhibition?.

Katie Phillips: They do, yes, sorry, totally forgot that part. So at our print meeting, we also pick the photo for the exhibition. So everything that they print, they'll get the digital copy of. So whether they want to take the exhibition print as well, they're able to do that. But yeah, we picked the exhibition print, and then that sort of goes into my archive, my little folder of prints that we've selected for the show. And we did have it on International Women's Day the last couple of years, but we're moving it to Mother's Day for next year, which will be really lovely. And so once that all rolls around, it's sort of, yeah, it's showtime. And so I have to get everything printed. And I use, the people that I print with, Atkins, they discuss with me, the frames that I use. But I use, like Ikea frames, they look perfectly fine for what I'm doing, but these beautiful, big prints. So I get the biggest frame that I can from Ikea, and I put these gorgeous prints in them. And yeah, we head round to the gallery and put them up. And the gallery here in Cooma is divine, like it's such a gorgeous space. So we have this really beautiful open showroom that we can put up all the photos in, and then once the exhibition's up, we have our opening celebration. That's usually sort of an afternoon tea sort of style thing. And last time, I had a band play and we had speeches, and people just sort of mingled and ate delicious food. And, it was really nice. So we got to really share in that celebration together. And I'm really about community as well. So bringing people together is something that's really important to me, and enabling those connections. So yeah, it was a beautiful thing to do, and everyone enjoy it too. We had our local politicians come around, our she's federal member, Kristy McBain came and had a look around, and we had the newspapers. So it's a really great opportunity to get that organic reach, because you know who's in an exhibition? You know, if you're in an exhibition, you're going to tell absolutely everybody, aren't you?

Andrew Hellmich: For sure

Katie Phillips: And you're going to bring as many people to that opening as you possibly can. So yeah, it's a really great way to get known. And the local paper covered it, and the radio covered it. So it was, it was really great way to be known. And then I also get the publicity of the gallery actually advertising it for me, which is another avenue of, you know, free advertising. Really great.

Andrew Hellmich: It's so good. It's so good. So for the listener who hasn't done this, maybe they heard your first interview. Maybe they've just listened to you now and thought, "Okay, I'm sold. I want to do this. I want to try this in my local area". How much lead time would you say someone who hasn't done this needs to kick this off?

Katie Phillips: It would really depend on the size of the exhibition. For what I'm doing now, I plan a full 12 months in advance, even more so, because we're moving it from March to Mother's Day, which I think is May next year. So if you're doing a small exhibition, I mean, you could probably get away with six months, but it really does take time to, you know, have that, not only just shoot the images that you want, but also to have that communication with your clients as well, and to help them to understand what's actually going to happen and to get the word out there as well. It does take time, but if you're only having a small show, well, then you could pull it together in less time, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. And so you, now in your business, are you looking for registrations for 2025 already?

Katie Phillips: Yes, so I'm shooting 2025 now.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. Okay, so because if I go to your website, you've still got some details about 2024 is that just because you just haven't updated that yet?

Katie Phillips: Yes, that is purely a time thing, Andrew.

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, just checking, just checking. Okay, so, so if I come to your website now, if I sign up now, I'm signing up for the 2025 exhibition, potentially.

Katie Phillips: Yep, and I do have people sort of trickling in still, which is lovely, but also like, "Oh, whoops, I better turn off that lead magnet". So, yeah.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, that makes sense. So if I want to do this for the very first time, so on the Central Coast, do I need to go and find somewhere to exhibit first? Or can I just start posting in groups or running ads, you know, if I want to follow what you're doing, posting in groups to try and find mothers and families to photograph. Or do I find that to find an exhibition space first?

Katie Phillips: That's a really good question. Honestly, it would also depend on the style of exhibition you want to do. So if you wanted to do an outdoor exhibition, then you possibly wouldn't need to book a space in advance, like there's some beautiful parks out there. And if you, for example, got easels and had frames on easels or images on easels or hung in trees, you could absolutely just go out and shoot. And if you wanted to do an exhibition later on, then you could find a space that suits your needs. But if you did want to book an actual space, I would say you probably need to go and find your space first. Just you can understand how many people you need, how many families you need to fill that space. Because if you don't have enough, it's going to look very empty. Or if you have too many, it's going to affect sort of the size of printing that you might need to do. So it can be a bit of both, if that makes sense. If you want to do something a little bit outside the box and go for an unconventional exhibition space, you absolutely could just, you know, wing it. But if you want to plan it for an exhibition in a gallery, you would need to book ahead, because they also do their planning ahead as well.

Andrew Hellmich: The first time you did this, I can't remember exactly what you said. Was it a community space, community hall, not a library. It was something like that, wasn't it?

Katie Phillips: It was a friend's space. So friend who owned a cafe, and she had this beautiful space next door that had like a boutique in it, and the girl who ran the boutique moved out into a bigger space, and so it was an empty area for a while, next to this gorgeous cafe. And I just sort of rocked up one day and went, "Ah, what do you reckon about this?" And she went, "Go for it. No one's in there, so go and do it."

Andrew Hellmich: Okay. So really, it can be anywhere that has enough space to show the photos that you want to display.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It was looking like we might not be able to have the exhibition in the gallery the way we usually have it next year. And so we were actually looking at different spaces and looking at more of maybe an ephemeral sort of art show where we possibly get in touch with this beautiful local pub of ours that has a really nice area and beer garden, sort of have it as like a one night show, get a band in, and you know, maybe have some paint and sip sort of activities and speeches and, you know, stories from, you know, the trenches of motherhood and things like that. So we were actually looking at a different spaces if we couldn't get the gallery this time around.

Andrew Hellmich: Right. I mean, you could be as creative and as imaginative as you like, you just need a space to show your work.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. We recently purchased my nan's property. She died a couple of years ago, and we're lucky enough to be able to buy it, and we live on a farm, and it's absolutely incredible. This paradise that she created. She's an avid gardener, and has the most spectacular garden, and we were actually looking at hosting it potentially here in the garden. That's where I'm speaking to you from. I've run away from my children and hiding out in that place, looking out the window at her beautiful garden.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. Okay, so it could really be anywhere. There's not a reason to not go ahead, like you can find a space.

Katie Phillips: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I remember being at art school, and we went to these incredible exhibitions for the Sydney Biennale, Triennale. I can't remember. It's like, every two years or three years, but, you know, we went to Cockatoo Island, and they had incredible artworks hung in, through the barracks, through there and Vivid in Sydney has it through Hyde Park, so it's really limited by your imagination.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, okay, that's great. So there's not a reason not to go ahead, that is for sure. So when you start posting about this, it sounds like you're running a Facebook style ad to attract mums, but you're just not creating an ad. You're doing it inside groups.

Katie Phillips: Yeah

Andrew Hellmich: So what's the incentive for the mums? Yes, it's to get a photo. Yes, it's to get a free print. Are you talking about the, is it the Mummahood Project already there, you're having an exhibition.

Katie Phillips: So the incentive for the mums is to have beautiful photos with their family and to be able to have at least one nice photo with them. And the hook is kind of it's one to give them the opportunity to share their story, but also to be in photos. Because mums are never, ever, ever in photos, ever, unless, like, a weird selfie, or, you know, the partner gets them.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, but are you mentioning the exhibition then?

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. So it's kind of like I set it up as, kind of like a model call, in a way. So you have, you know, for example, off the top of my head, I think I had like, "Hi everybody, Mamahood 2025 is rolling around, and I'm looking for new families, new mamas. And if you'd like to sign up, this is what's included. So you've got your session, you've got your print or credit, you have inclusion in the motherhood exhibition and the opportunity to purchase further prints."

Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so pretty simple, just like a Facebook ad.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely, super simple. Like it's, yeah, I don't want to complicate things and I don't want to confuse either, so I really try and make sure that everything's really, really clear, and if they want to ask questions, well then they can, because they've got my details there as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it okay? So everyone from those posts, in those groups and notice boards, or in Facebook, you're sending them then to your landing page, they answer questions, and then they get selected. So does everyone, I think you said you weed people out, is that when you start talking about pricing?

Katie Phillips: Yes and no. So it kind of they're almost some self selected so if they don't select something other than the free print. So it's kind of like, in the questionnaire at the bottom there's, you know, what do you see yourself doing with your images? And then there's check boxes, and so they can check as many of those boxes as they want to, and if they've only checked "I just want a freebie", well, then they go to the bottom of the list.

Andrew Hellmich: Sure, got it.

Katie Phillips: I understand it's not for everybody. And also, like in this climate, there's a lot of pressure on families cost wise, so I don't want to ever feel like I'm pressuring anybody. So if they're just after a freebie, I also need to value my time, which is something I'm learning, and I don't want to waste either of our time. So some of them are self selected in that respect, and then some won't respond to the email that I then send them about booking a call with me, and then if we get on a call, it's kind of like those hoops that you jump through once they're on a call, you usually know that they're fairly committed, because they've done a lot of leg work to get there, and I've only had, I think, three out of the last lot who have come back and said, "Oh, look, we're just not in a financial position at the moment", which is great, and I really appreciate when they say that, because I rather hear it before we have their session than at the print meeting where they're going, "Oh, actually no", and we've already done all the work.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes, yeah, that's the worst. So in your ad, for want of a better word, or your call out for mums, are you adding any scarcity in there? Are you saying something like, "Hey, there's only five spots left", or "I need 10 families, and that's it".

Katie Phillips: Nope, none.

Andrew Hellmich: No scarcity. Okay.

Katie Phillips: No scarcity. No. I want to leave it open as well, so that if people want to be included, well then they can be. And the beauty of the space that we're in is that we can have more. So I've actually inquired this year to booking out the entire gallery.

Andrew Hellmich: Well, because how many families or how many prints are you looking to exhibit?

Katie Phillips: About 50, roughly.

Andrew Hellmich: Right? And that's one print or one display image per family that you photograph.

Katie Phillips: Yes

Andrew Hellmich: Well, okay, so you're booking 50 sessions from this campaign, for want of the better word.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. So you said something interesting there, Katie, that you know, you get on the phone and talk to every one of them. You know, this gets past the questionnaire stage. Now a lot of photographers, including listeners, find that clients don't want to get on the phone. They want to talk by text or messenger or DMS, usually text or even WhatsApp messages. Are you actually getting on the phone and talking to these people?

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's really important to have that connection. Because I'm a mum, I'm talking to mums, we form a bond over those moments that we're on the phone. And I usually leave about 15 minutes for the phone call. But I'm going to have to revise that, because the last two phone calls that I took were 45 minutes long, which is not great for efficiency, but you know, you just start getting talking about kids. And, you know, I think I had my two year old roaring around in the background and profusely apologizing, and my client was laughing her head off because she had her two year old roaring around in the background. So it was kind of like really lovely moment where we could just be real with each other. And I think that really builds rapport and trust.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. So when you put aside some time to make these calls, I know again, a lot of photographers, it's a numbers game. They've got to make so many calls, they get so many bookings, and a lot of them dread making those calls. Do you get those butterflies? Do you feel nervous before you pick up the phone and start making those calls?

Katie Phillips: No, no, I'm bit of a chat bag, so I don't mind. I also really like talking to people, because I'm really bad at messaging. Like I said, I'm a mum, so I have two kids, and I also more than likely have undiagnosed ADHD. So I find it really difficult to keep track of text messages and messages, and I just find it a lot easier if I talk to somebody. I can get the information straight away. We can have a conversation, then it's done. I'm not having to go backwards and forwards on Messenger. And I'm also dyslexic, so that doesn't help either. So when people say, "Oh God, I hate getting on the phone", I'm like, "I'm the opposite. I would rather talk to you on the phone, then have to write you a message", because it just takes me so long, and I get confused and I get interrupted, and so I have half written messages from like, a week ago. I'll go back and go, "Oops. Well, that moment's passed."

Andrew Hellmich: So a phone call works for you. I mean, it sounds like it comes naturally, especially if you're talking for 45 minutes, which is, yeah, again, not good for efficiency, but obviously shows the connection that you have. You said earlier, Katie, that you let some people go. And I'm guessing that happens on the phone call, if they identify themselves as not being able to be in it, or they're not in a position to afford you right now so they would naturally let themselves go. Do you actually have to let anyone go yourself? Do you have to say, "Listen, I don't think this is right for you?"

Katie Phillips: It's never been I've never had to say it myself. But if we get to the point where we're talking about prints and costs and things like that, I have had one girl say, "Look, I just don't think this is for me", and that's totally fine, and I'd rather they be honest with me straight up. But it's also happened after I've sent through the rest of the information. So I'll send through a full price guide, because I just want to have everything up front. And yeah, they've written back and said, "Look, we're just not in the financial position at the moment. We've sort of had a look at our numbers, and we're just not there at the moment". It's never been a "Nah, hate your stuff. Don't want to do it".

Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. And you never had to say, "Listen, I don't think this is a good fit for you, or you're not right for the exhibition or my project."

Katie Phillips: Not really, no. Because, like I said once, they've jumped through all of those hoops. You kind of know that they're committed, and because I've given them all the information up front, I'm fairly confident that they're going to, well, love my work because they've seen it already, because in the post they put on Facebook, I always put images up so they know what they're getting. And so yeah, there's not really any time where I've gone. "I don't think you're right".

Andrew Hellmich: Right, so let's take one of the two recent 45 minute conversations that you had. Where in that timeline does the client first hear what they might spend, or what your pricing is, or what the families on average, spend? When does money come up in that 45 minute timeline.

Katie Phillips: So when we start actually going through the process, so we sort of, we get on the phone and we'll start chatting about, I always ask about the kids, like, how, just like you would get on the phone with a friend, "How are you going? How's the week been? What you've been up to? What's going on? Aren't these sicknesses that are going around bananas?". "We just had gastro. How about you guys?". You know, all of those things that sort of bring them in line with you, and just having that really nice sort of opener where you're chatting like your friends, and then usually, you know, after, you know, several minutes or half an hour, I'll go, "Oh, I suppose I should probably talk about your photos. Would you like to be a part of the Mummahood Project? I would really love to have you on board". And that's when we sort of drop into business mode, and I'll walk them through the process, and walk them through the steps of "This is what we're going to do. I'm going to be with you every step of the way. We'll have your session. We'll organize all the details, and then we'll go away and I'll edit your beautiful photos, and then we'll come back together, and we'll have a print meeting. And at your print meeting, we can have a look at your beautiful photos, and I've got a slideshow. Bring your tissues, because usually people cry, just warning you now, and we can work out what you want to do with them", and then so from there I can, sort of, I bring in the pricing. So I say, "You can have your beautiful print, and that's totally, totally fine if you want to walk away with that. There's no obligation to purchase anything further. But I also have the option where you can swap that print for a $200 printing credit if you wanted to create something bigger and more beautiful for your home, and we'll do that together. And I've got frames that start at 400 and go up from there, and there's big, beautiful mural things that we can create together. And I have albums and photo books and loose prints", and I just sort of go through all of the options and give them starting prices, and then I tell them, "I'll send you through a full price guide after our conversation". And so they do get all the information, and everything is up front, so they can decide there. And that's when we sort of, yeah, get to talk about business. And I also mentioned that I have payment plans too, because I know people want to invest. People understand, if they've gone this far, they understand the value of photography. And I also explain that I am really about printing stuff, because what's the point of having these beautiful digital images if your children can't see you and them in them on walls? So that's where I really hammer home that we want to print these things. We want to have artwork in your home, because your kids need to see this.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah

Katie Phillips: There's no other ones.

Andrew Hellmich: What's the biggest number that they hear on that phone call with you? Is it your largest print? Is it what some family spend on average? Can you throw a number at me?

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Andrew Hellmich: Yes, got it, okay. Again, super simple. I love how you're running your business. You don't have anything on your website about education or teaching other you're just a working mum who has a photography business. I asked you before we recorded, like, if someone wants help with this, would you consider helping them? Like, is that something you would consider?

Katie Phillips: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I love teaching. And like I said to you before, I'm also an art therapist, so I I'm very familiar with running groups and facilitating stuff. So if anybody wants help, let me know. I'm an open book.

Andrew Hellmich: Alright, so where should we go to see more of your Mummahood Project? See more of your work. See the photography. Where's the best place?

Katie Phillips: I'm mostly active on Instagram, so my handle is @KatiePhillips_photography. And I mean, I think my Facebook, I'm so bad on Facebook, it's just another thing to have to do. I think it's Katie Takes Pics on Facebook. And my email address is [email protected], longest email in the world. I'm sorry.

Andrew Hellmich: Look, I'll add links to all those in the show notes that's going to accompany the audio. You've been amazing again, Katie, it's been so good to chat to you across on the other side of the world, of all places, and it feels like we're sitting chatting like we are like we did last time back in Australia. So massive thanks for coming on and sharing everything you have. I can't wait to see more. I hope, I really do hope to get down and actually see the exhibition in person one of these days. So but again, massive, thanks for coming on.

Katie Phillips: Oh my pleasure. Andrew, as always, thanks for having me. It's been an absolute treat.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, Katie, thank you so much.

I didn't ask you about Elevate. I'm curious about why did you sign up for that Elevate with Katie and Jez, when you already have a successful business?

Katie Phillips: Honestly, because I needed help with efficiency and also with things like pricing and stuff. So since signing up with them, I've actually changed a heck of a lot within my business. So a lot of the stuff I did bring over, but they've helped me streamline things, and it's been unbelievable. Like Katie and Jez are just the most incredible people and teachers, like we had the most this amazing time, and I have made lifelong friends from that group. It was truly transformative, and I now am really confident, particularly with my pricing as well. Like one of the things that Katie and Jez really taught was, and I know I spoke about this before, was like valuing yourself and valuing myself. So I'm going to say my because I'm owning it. But it was, I've always been really worried about overcharging and being seen as really expensive. And that's cost me, because before, I was making a good profit, but Katie was horrified when I told her my cost of product, and she's like, "Absolutely not. No". So I revamped my price list so that it actually made me a more profitable business, but also didn't out-price myself. So I've brought in new products. That meant that I could have a tiered sort of system now where I have, you know, my classic frames, but then I have my deluxe products, which means I get to sell the things that I really love still, but I can price things at a point where it's not too expensive, but I'm still able to have a decent profit as well. And they, Katie taught us about Asana. Oh, my God, that thing has completely revolutionized my life. Like I mentioned..

Andrew Hellmich: How are you using Asana? Isn't that a massive, massive program?.

Katie Phillips: It's huge, but it's free. I can't believe it.

Andrew Hellmich: Right

Katie Phillips: Yeah, well, I mean, it's free to a point, and if you want all the whistles, you have to pay for it. But what I'm using it for, it is a massive program, but it's really, really good for people who, and I know there was a lot of neurodivergent people in the group, and for us, it meant that we could not lose track of stuff. That's what I'm absolutely deathly scared of within my business, is that I something falls through the cracks. I'm very much a people pleaser. So that's one of my things that I don't want to ever disappoint somebody. So Asana has helped me to streamline that and make sure that I can keep everything on track and not lose what's going on and get completely overwhelmed. And it's also really good for my mental health too, because I don't have that fear sitting on my shoulders anymore, and I don't have that overwhelm anymore. So even with just that, it was revolutionary.

Andrew Hellmich: Unreal. You never go to those things without coming away, you know, with the head spinning and your mind blown. And, of all people, Katie and Jez, yeah, what incredible operators.

Katie Phillips: I know, and they just up the road for me. They're unbelievable.

Andrew Hellmich: So good

Katie Phillips: So good, yeah, I'm indebted to them. And that course, was just incredible. We had three and a half days of, what was it? nine till some, well, I mean, most nights we didn't get home until like 10 or 11o'clock afterwards and stuff. But it was just really amazing. And they went through absolutely everything, like policies, you know, how to run an office, how to set up a studio, how to run your numbers, how to do your price list, how to, we went on four shoots.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, wow.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, there were two groups, morning and night. So we went out to the NGA, and did a family out there. And then we went out to a beautiful reserve North Canberra, and it was fantastic. So we went through absolutely everything.

Andrew Hellmich: So good. Well, hopefully they'll run it again next year. I haven't heard anything yet, but I'm sure they will be and I'll have to share this with listeners and get it out there.

Katie Phillips: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I cannot speak highly enough of them and of the program, like the way they've set it up. It was just really user friendly. And then the Facebook group that we're all a part of now has been invaluable as well. So we, yeah, they've continued that support on which I know it takes time and stuff.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, unreal.

Katie Phillips: They're unreal.

Andrew Hellmich: So good

Katie Phillips: Wonderful people

Andrew Hellmich: It's been great to catch up again. Katie, thank you for doing this.

Katie Phillips: Oh, my pleasure. Andrew, it's so nice.

Andrew Hellmich: Are you going to hide out there at your Nan's house a little while to be kid free for another half an hour? Or you're going to get straight back home?

Katie Phillips: We're going to go home because I'm so cold. Fire's not lit, the sun's down, and my toes are starting to get very cold.

Andrew Hellmich: All right, I'll let you go. I'm going to go get my cycling gear on and some breakfast, and then head out too.

Andrew Hellmich: Hey, it's Andrew here back and you may not know that there is a bit of a Join Here where you're gonna guess now, because I'm telling you, but I'm back with Katie. Because the funny thing is, once we got off the interview, we said our goodbyes and pretty much immediately after we both sent emails to each other. Katie saying, "Oh my god, I forgot to say some more things about the Elevate training, or course, with Katie and Jez" and I went back and said, "Listen, I didn't ask you the one big thing I really wanted to know, and that is what you would do differently, or what you are doing differently with your Mummahood Project, after having done it a couple of times. You know, what are the changes you're going to make and you have made since starting it". So I've got Katie back. She's just put her kids down to sleep. I've got a rainy, wet day here in Gerona. So this is lined up perfectly for both of us. So Katie, I'm going to throw it to you first. What did you want to add about Katie and Jez's Elevate course that you didn't tell us in the initial recording.

Katie Phillips: Ah, Andrew, that course, was absolutely mind blowing, and a huge, massive shout out to Katie and Jez, who are just the best people in the world. And also to the Elevate crew, we were foundational, and was just the most beautiful group of people that they brought together, and we shared so much in that space. What I really, really wanted to add was it wasn't just a business course, because what Katie and Jez allowed us to do and guided us to do was to really dig down into the whys of our business, and helped us to find what it really was we wanted to achieve, not just professionally, but in our lives, and how our businesses were going to help us to achieve that lifestyle that we really were striving for. So for me, that was really an incredible motivator in what I want to do with my business and how I want to shape it so that it fits my life, and it's serving me rather than the other way around, and me being beholden to my business all the time, and it actually working to help move my family forward as well, and us to reach our dreams, which was pretty incredible. We, I don't know how many people ended up in tears in that group, in a really beautiful way, because as we sort of tapped into these different goals and dreams, we came to understand ourselves better. And that was really beautiful, because I know that there was a lot of neuro spiciness in that room and in that space, and it was really beautiful how Katie and Jez were able to help us utilize our gifts in that space and really be proud of who we are, as creatives, as business people, and just as people in general. So I was really grateful to be given the opportunity to find that pride in myself and my work, and that's really strengthened me as a business person as well, because it gave me the strength to do things like change my price list really dramatically and make shifts in my business that I wouldn't necessarily make if I didn't have that understanding of myself, that confidence in who I am, and that understanding of what I want my business to do for me and for my family.

Andrew Hellmich: What do you mean by that? Like, what you want your business to do for you? Like, what's something concrete that you thought, "Okay, I'm going to come away. I'm going to implement this in my business after having a tender Elevate".

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. So, for example, I have most definitely undiagnosed ADHD, as I think I mentioned before, and so understanding that more as not necessarily a handicap, but just as something that I can work with and that I have a better understanding of. So using tools like Asana to help me plan things and help me track things. They gave us templates for managing our social media content and stuff like that. So I think, is that answering your question sort of..

Andrew Hellmich: Kind of, so, like when we did the initial interview, you know, you talked a lot about, you know, how you want to have the mums that you're photographing as part of your project shine, like that was a huge thing that was important to you. But this Elevate course, it sort of, it sounds like Katie and Jez said, "Hey, look, yeah, that's great, serve the mums. Create the work you want to create, but you still have to create a lifestyle for yourself if you want to do this long term". And you said, you know, one of the things was you were going to increase your prices, and you need to make adjustments in your business so that it serves you and your family. So does that mean you're going to come back and say, "I'm going to work four days a week instead of five days a week or seven days a week. I'm going to only shoot on Thursdays and Sundays and have the other days free." Like, did you come away and think, "Okay, I'm going to make these changes in the business after having talked to Katie and Jez.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. So one thing I did learn really concrete from them was the cancelation policies that they have. That was something that I really struggle with. I'm a famous people pleaser, so being able to have really firm policies around cancelations, and so, for example, recently, I had a client come to me and say, "I've had a tough week. The kids have been sick and we're all really tired. I need to reschedule our print meeting". And instead of going, "Yep, yep, yep, let's reschedule it for a time when I might be", you know, with the kids and I just put a movie on for them or something, or reschedule it later on, on another day, that then creates a bottleneck and pressure for my workflow. I said, "Well, actually, this doesn't work for me. How about we do a zoom meeting instead. I know it's got to be flexible for you. So would that work instead? And if not, well, then we'll find another way that works for both of us". Instead of me, putting myself in a position where I am not serving my family, as I should, because my family is going to come first before my business, obviously. So I did that terrified, hit send the email, cross my fingers, try not to cry when she came back and went “Absolutely, for sure. Let's do that. That sounds like a great option”. So that was something really concrete for me that I wouldn't have been able to do without finding my voice, essentially. And finding my confidence in that and being able to say, “No, that doesn't work for me”.

Andrew Hellmich: And that is huge. I mean, that sounds to me, like you're running a business now, rather than just being a people pleaser. I mean, the business has to fit around you, your family and your lifestyle. And clients has to fit in a little bit with you, rather than them dictating all the terms, which is how it should be.

Katie Phillips: Absolutely like you do not go to the shop after 5 o’clock and go “Ugh, well, that's no good. They should be open because I'm here and I'm ready to buy it”. You know, six o'clock at night. You don't go and chuck a tantrum out the front of the shops, do you? So why would my clients think any differently because I'm running a business. And if I don't put those policies in place, and those professional boundaries in place, well then I'm not only doing them a disservice, because that's, you know, thinking poorly of them as well that they're not able to handle me saying “No”, but it's also doing my family a disservice to because I'm not able to be there for them.

Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, yeah.

Katie Phillips: And for me, I deserve some time off too.

Andrew Hellmich: Yes,100%. You know what I'm laughing as you gave that analogy, because here in Gerona, the shops shut down for siesta. They're not open after lunch on Saturday. They're not open on Sunday at all. And where I am, you know, on the Central Coast, just north of Sydney, we were all saying here in our group, “We can get anything we want at any time of day. 24/7”. So it's a totally different perspective shift but we don't even question it. We just fit in and adapt. Like, that's the way these businesses run. And that's the way your clients now see you. And they say, “Well, Katie's got a family. She's got a life. Well, we'll have to fit in with her a little bit”.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And they're totally fine with it. So that's been a really big mindset shift for me that, “No, this is a business and it has to fit around my life. Because if I'm stressed, I'm not going to be one good business owner and able to perform at my best within my business. But I'm also going to be a pretty … mum and partner and friend to myself as well”. And that's important.

Andrew Hellmich: I love that

Katie Phillips: Because what's the point of…

Andrew Hellmich: Exactly. I love it. I'm gonna add links to Elevate. And let's set a reminder for the listener when Katy and Jez run it again, I think they're going to I'm guessing they run it again in 2025. And I'll be in touch with them and make sure we talk about it. So, thanks for that. I want to ask you what I wanted to ask you and that is about The Mummahood Project because you shared all the strategy that the way you structure the whole thing, but I didn't ask because you know, we talked about Mummahood and your project last year. What are you doing differently this year? And what are you going to do differently next year, after what you've learned since doing this a couple of times already?

Katie Phillips: That's a really, really good question. So this latest one, it was pretty well the same as the previous one, except I had a band, which was pretty awesome. And, you know, it's pretty much the same, thinking about it. But this next one, what I really want to do is create more of an event around it. So because I have that up for a full month, and the gallery space has workshop capacity. So people come in, and they run workshops in there all the time within the gallery space. And what I really would like to do is to create a bit of a festival around this exhibition. So I'll be running photography classes, and I'll be running art therapy groups and an art groups as well, being an art therapist. So I can sort of expanded into that and help other people find their creativity in that as well, which will be really, really fun. I've got some friends who are yoga instructors, as well. So I'll be getting in touch with them to see if they want to run some yoga workshops as well, and women's circles, and maybe paint and sip, and things like that just to really bring the community together and extend it into more of a festival of women, and mums, and kids.

Andrew Hellmich: And so with these additional things, which do sound amazing, especially for your community, like if you're going to run camera or photography workshops, your art workshops, or they're going to be lead generating events for you as well. Are you looking to sell people into portrait sessions? Is there a business aspect? Or is it just a feel good, give back to the community aspect?

Katie Phillips: Both, absolutely both. So, with the photography workshops, I'll be running promotions with them. So it might be like, you know, teach you how to use ,your iPhone or your mobile phone to take better pictures of your kids. But then at the end of that, there'll be a promotional aspect to that to bring in, you know, bookings for next time around or portrait sessions and things like that. There'll be competitions within that week. So whether it's, you know, raffles or whether it's, you know, the name and a jar sort of thing, it's a great opportunity to really bring in those lead generating face to face opportunities. So, there'll be heaps of that as well. And being able to bring in other businesses, we can really work together to create great prize packs, and promotional offers and stuff like that. So, I'm really excited to be able to expand it out so that it's not just the photography exhibition, but also an opportunity for us as a community to showcase what we can do.

Andrew Hellmich: I like it, I like it. So just tying this back to the business side of things. When you ran the first two projects, and you're now, you're running, you're looking at the next one, have you had price increases? Are you targeting leads, or trying to get interest in the project by any other means? I know, you mentioned the Facebook groups, and you go and post in there, have you had price increases? Are you doing different things to get leads? Are all that staying the same? And it's fine if it is, I just want to be sure that I'm getting the best I can for the listener if they want to do this to?

Katie Phillips: Absolutely, absolutely. So, at the actual exhibition, I have a sign-up sheet. So if you want to be involved next year, you can sign up at the actual gallery. So that's through a QR code that I stick on the wall, which is plastered in multiple places throughout the exhibition. So because the mums are bringing their friends, they're bringing their mums, they're bringing in people, bringing in leads, I want to capture them, when they're excited in the moment. And they go, “Oh, well, I'd like to be a part of this”. So they can sign up then and there.

Andrew Hellmich: Do they pay anything at that point, or they just add their name to a list?

Katie Phillips: They just go through the process of signing up. So they go to the registration page, and then they can register there. Those registration pages at the gallery aren't as extensive because I don't want people having to fill in too much detail in that moment. Because they might not do it, if they see a big long list of questions then might go “Oh, we'll do this later, and then forget so it's sort of a bit more of a snapshot capture them in that moment.

Andrew Hellmich: Got it. Can past entrants, enter for the following year?

Katie Phillips: They can do that, they can, and they have.

Andrew Hellmich: They have, right.

Katie Phillips: They have, yeah, absolutely. So I know that's kind of a cheeky thing, potentially. But I figured they're that excited to be a part of it again, and they want to invest again. Well then, why would I stand in the way, and motherhood as a theme, and as a journey, evolves, so, you know, a one mum, last time I did, she was a part of the mummahood, she had four kids living at home. And now she is expecting twin grandkids. So, you know, so changing, which is really beautiful.

Andrew Hellmich: Nice, unreal. What I love is that it hasn't really changed that much like you've sort of nailed it the first time and just done little tiny tweaks. And it's still just continues to run beautifully. I mean, you could do this for the next 10,20 years, if you want to.

Katie Phillips: Absolutely could. And that's what I would really love is to be able to give all mums an opportunity to be a part of it. So it's sort of something that can keep going, because you're never going to get everybody that first year and it's never going to get old. Because what I'm hoping is it's going to build as like a “Oh, this is, you know, the Mummahood exhibition is coming up again”, or it's this annual celebration. So that's why I sort of want to bring in other businesses as well and make it a bit more of a festival over the four weeks that the exhibition is actually up, so that we can have that longevity as well.

Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. I mean, how cool to think that, you know, little old you, Dan and Kumar can start this potential festival in the area for moms. I mean, if someone says that to you, 10 years ago, you think “Are you crazy?”. And I would if it was me, I don't know if you feel the same way, but it must be an incredible feeling.

Katie Phillips: Yeah, it is actually, it's really lovely. And the positive feedback that I've had, like I've only had a few. And a few people have said, “Well, what about the dads?”. Look, it's a very low bar for dads to get praise. I'm afraid so. But I'm gonna celebrate.

Andrew Hellmich: That’s harsh, that's harsh.

Katie Phillips: I know, I'm sorry. But it is because you think like, you know, you see a dad taking their kid to the park and everyone's gushing like “Oh, isn’t he such a good dad”. It's a very low bar that they got to cross and get over. So you know, pat on the back to you guys, but we're gonna celebrate mums here.

Andrew Hellmich: Fair enough. Fair enough.

Katie Phillips: If somebody else wants to do a “Dad's Day”, you know, exhibition, I will happily come and celebrate with you. But I'm going to stick to Mum’s.

Andrew Hellmich: Fair enough. Katie, look, massive thanks for coming back and sharing those additional bits of information, super helpful. And I'll be following along and can't wait to hear how it goes for next season as well.

Katie Phillips: Thanks, Andrew. It's been fun. I'm glad that we got to fit in this time again between bike riding and kids and everything else.

Andrew Hellmich: Thanks, Katie.

Katie Phillips: My pleasure.

The post 574: Katie Phillips – Photography exhibitions as a lead generator and sales machine for photographers appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

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Chris Gillett of  www.liketherazor.com was first featured on the podcast for episode 158 in 2016, when he'd just gone full-time with his headshot photography business.

Before going full-time, he was a successful Lawyer, and at the time of recording, he sounded happy to have left that career behind.

At the time, he had three packages, starting at $300.

Check out his website today, and you will see the following…

Not to mention the high-end, beautifully lit and varied headshots.

Interestingly, his pricing is lower today… and, you get more time allocated for your headshot photography sessions.

I asked this talented photographer and long-term business operator back onto the podcast… to hear an honest update on how things have played out over the last 10 years in business. The ups and downs, the wins and losses and most of all, the lessons he's learned to help you stick at it and grow your business successfully and, ideally, by avoiding a few mistakes along the way.

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I think anybody who's in this business full-time will know this already, but like, you've got to be open to the negative criticism, because that's where you learn the stuff. – Chris Gillett

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Wealthy people are used to hiring and relying on experts, and they want you to be in charge. – Chris Gillett

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Chris shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

I can be picky and and so I found that the more specific I am about who I am, what I do, who I do it for, why I do it, it's kind of unintuitive, because you think, well, if I cast a bigger net, I'll get more stuff. And it's kind of the opposite. I guess the net has a lot of holes in it, because you want to like a spear and go, ‘nope, that one.' ‘I don't want that one.' ‘I don't want that one.' It gets me better clients. It gets me clients, and I've just done a better job of that as I've grown over the last 10 years. – Chris Gillett

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Chris, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

I want to be an individual that sticks out from everybody else. I want to enjoy it and have fun. And then the other part of it is, I know there's a lot of ways to get people to perform in front of the camera, but one of the things I like to do is just to kind of create a fun atmosphere. – Chris Gillett

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

There are so few things that are heirlooms and photographs are that. – Ashley Kaplan

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Chris Gillett Website

PBX158 Episode: Chris Gillett – From Lawyer to Full Time Headshot Photographer

Chris Gillett on Instagram

Chris Gillett on Facebook

Episode 463: Jon Meadows – LinkedIn mining for more fantastic photography clients

Episode 362: Tony Taafe – Build a profitable headshot photography business by allowing clients to spend more

Episode 145: Peter Hurley – How To Survive and Thrive as a Headshot Photographer

Episode 268: Alex Vita – Everything you need for a successful photography website

Thanks again for listening and to Chris for coming back on and sharing his candid thoughts, ideas and experience on creating a long term and successful headshot photography business by continually learning, upskilling and adapting with the times.

You know you're getting good at something when you start to get really critical of yourself and you don't mind. – Chris Gillett

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 573: Chris Gillett – How to build and run a successful long term headshot photography business appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

Ashley Kaplan of www.ashleykaplanphotography.com is a San Francisco, Californian-based family photographer, mentor, and educator.

She told me about her passion for intentionally incorporating location into portrait photography to add more meaning, memory, and belonging to her work, which she said leads to a higher-end offering for clients.

She's been in business for almost 8 years, is booked out nearly year-round, and is becoming known for her environmental portraits.

I always become a little wary when I hear the terms educator and mentor being used when it comes to interview guests so I asked a few more questions to get a better idea if she'd make a great guest for you.

I learned that 90% of her income comes from photography clients and 10% from education.

Her revenue from photography is over $200k, her work is gorgeous, and her portrait photography pricing starts at over $1500.

In this interview, Ashley shares a blueprint for explosive photography business growth and how she went from 20k to $200k in quick time.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

I decided to become a stay-at-home mom and run a photography business just as a side hustle to earn money. – Ashley Kaplan

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Ashley shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

I'm a big believer that you like invest in people that support you to run the things that are not in your zone of genius and you stay in your lane in your zone of genius and it helps me actually make more money by paying people to do things that I don't love and don't do well. – Ashley Kaplan

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Ashley, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

It's rare to see a special price for the Premium Membership, but there's one available for you until Sunday, June 30th 2024.

Why the special?

Because it's holiday time (I'm off to France) and there's no better reason to celebrate!

The 12-Month Premium Membership – is normally $200… NOW $120… https://photobizx.com/holidayspecial

This is the cheapest you'll ever see the 12-month membership.

SPECIAL BONUS FOR EXISTING MEMBERS

If you've made a membership payment this month already and want this deal, I'll refund this month's payment for you.

For me to process the refund, you'll need to email me your PayPal email address, which may be different to your regular email address.

Make sure you join first, then cancel your existing payments. This way, your Premium RSS Feed URL stays the same.

NOTE: If you are already on the special price from last year, there's no need for you to do anything. Your existing membership will automatically renew at the special price.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

If a terrible situation happen and my home burnt down, what are the things that truly matter besides my people? And photographs and albums are that for a lot of people and it's one of the only things we invest in that our children's children's children will have. – Ashley Kaplan

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

There are so few things that are heirlooms and photographs are that. – Ashley Kaplan

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Here's the latest review:

Via Apple Podcasts by Los Angeles Family Photographer Sarah Sido, in the USA on June 25th, 2024.

This review is long overdue! There is no other podcast that has been as important and impactful to my business growth.

Andrew is a fantastic interviewer who always gets the most helpful information from his guests. Instead of vague concepts, he really pushes for real numbers and specific strategies. The only thing left for you is to make sure you implement the strategies that resonate with you.

But what really separates this podcast from so many others is the community that comes with the premium membership and Andrew himself. I don’t know how he does it, but somehow Andrew finds time to respond in detail to any questions or requests for feedback in the FB group. And I don’t mean quick lines of encouragement, he gives real, thought through, helpful feedback. I’m consistently blown away.

Definitely try out the premium version. So worth it!

Via email from Adelaide pet photographer, Tanya Simmonds, in Australia on June 28th, 2024.

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for letting me know. I have to admit, a few times I have contemplated leaving the membership to save some money, but I wanted you to know that the reason I stay is that you have created such a lovely, nurturing and safe haven for photographers where I feel very supported, that I just have to stay. Thank you for bringing together such a lovely and positive group of people! This is priceless!

Warmest regards,

Tanya

Photography business and mindset coach Johl Dunn has finally released his journal for photographers!

Why You’ll Love It:

What’s Inside?

For more details and to order yours, head to: https://photobizx.com/beinspired

A Sense of Place – Learning to Intentionally Incorporate Location To Enhance & Elevate Storytelling Course

Ashley Kaplan Website

Ashley Kaplan on Facebook

Ashley Kaplan on Instagram

With environmental portraits, composition is paramount. People can get really lost in the image if you are not very intentional about where you are placing them and how you're composing the image and how you're cropping it. And so sometimes I can show how minor tweaks can really elevate an image quite a bit. – Ashley Kaplan

Thanks again for listening and to Ashley for coming on and sharing her thoughts, ideas and experience on creating backlinks for a successful and fast-growing photography business based around gorgeous environmental family portraits.

That really impacts me in what I deliver to clients knowing that sometimes we have these pressures on ourselves in the moment but you're not my only client. Your great great grandkids are also clients that I think about and that's why I'm all inclusive because I want all of those pictures, the full story. – Ashley Kaplan

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 572: Ashley Kaplan – From $20k to $200k a blueprint for explosive photography business growth appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

Kari Bjorn of www.karibjorn.com is an Icelandic wedding and elopement photographer based in Connecticut in the USA, where he also photographs weddings.

We chatted recently, and he told me he'd love to share what he's learned in the past 2.5 years while optimising his website and SEO for my own business.

As a bit of a backstory, three years ago, he moved with his family from New York to Arkansas—about 2000km away—which meant he lost all of his corporate contacts and wedding referrals.

And he just moved again!

He had to start from scratch as most weddings had been booked via referrals.

He invested heavily in SEO in 2021 and nearly doubled his income between 2022 and 2023. He also started booking destination elopements in Iceland.

His website looks great, and everything he's written has been written for the couples he's looking to attract. His photography is colourful and vibrant.

In this interview, Kari shares how he doubled his wedding photography income with SEO backlinks and how you can do the same for your website.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

Outranking local photographers for destination weddings is pretty difficult. But it doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Because weddings and elopements is such a high ticket item, that it's not the same as searching for something like best Mexican restaurant for lunch, or some people are just going to click on the first point two or three results. – Kari Bjorn

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Kari shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

It helps when your domain has reasonable authority already with Google. So if you have a lot of backlinks pointing to your domain, it helps make the switch. – Kari Bjorn

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Kari, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

It's rare to see a special price for the Premium Membership, but there's one available for you until Sunday, June 30th 2024.

Why the special?

Because it's holiday time (I'm off to France) and there's no better reason to celebrate!

The 12-Month Premium Membership – is normally $200… NOW $120… https://photobizx.com/holidayspecial

This is the cheapest you'll ever see the 12-month membership.

SPECIAL BONUS FOR EXISTING MEMBERS

If you've made a membership payment this month already and want this deal, I'll refund this month's payment for you.

For me to process the refund, you'll need to email me your PayPal email address, which may be different to your regular email address.

Make sure you join first, then cancel your existing payments. This way, your Premium RSS Feed URL stays the same.

NOTE: If you are already on the special price from last year, there's no need for you to do anything. Your existing membership will automatically renew at the special price.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

Definitely stay away from anything that is too good to be true in the backlink world. – Kari Bjorn

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Kari Bjorn – Iceland Elopement and Wedding Photography

Kari Bjorn on Instagram

Kari Bjorn on Facebook

Thanks again for listening and to Kari for coming on and sharing his thoughts, ideas and experience on creating backlinks to boost your SEO and get booked for the type of photography and locations you want to be booked for.

When it comes to anchor text, it matters that you have a lot of anchor text links that are your brand name, or kind of a variation, exactly, as you mentioned, on what you do and where you do it. – Kari Bjorn

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 571: Kari Bjorn – Double your wedding photography income with SEO appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.

Premium Members, click here to access this interview in the premium area

Kim Jongen of www.motherpuppers.nl is today's special guest. She popped up on my radar after leaving a Google review for the PhotoBizX podcast. As usual, I jumped over to check out the reviewer's website and was blown away!

Her dog photographs popped off the screen and were so much fun.

Photographed in the studio, the dogs have fantastic expressions on their faces and are framed against beautifully bright and coloured backgrounds. She has over 30 different coloured backgrounds to choose from!

I learned that her business, Motherpuppers, has only been operating for two years and is doing very well. She is booked out with three-month lead times and photographs 4-5 sessions per week!

She believes business has been busy from the start because her style or concept had not been seen in the Netherlands.

Most of her bookings came via Instagram after she created an account for her dog and asked for referrals from dog owners interested in photographs like the ones she created.

She also told me that as happy as she is to come on the podcast, it's on the proviso that we're ok with not perfect English.

It was a resounding yes from me, and I know you'll feel the same after seeing her work and hearing what she has to share.

In this interview, learn and be inspired by the power of unique branding and original marketing ideas.

Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:

If you’re on the fence about becoming a premium member, join with the $1 trial today and get access to the FULL interviews each week, a fantastic back catalogue of interviews, and have ALL future interviews delivered automatically to your phone or tablet.

Plus, special member-only interviews.

Make captions…You need to keep it simple, and automatically you want to think very deep about things but you don't have to. Just keep it simple and act like a child who read the captions and that's, I think, the trick to get views on reels. – Kim Jongen

You'll also receive access to the members-only Secret Facebook Group, where you can connect with other Premium Members and interview guests to help, support and motivate you to take ideas you hear in each episode and put them into action. The group also has FB live video tutorials, role-play, and special live interviews. You will not find more friendly, motivated, caring and sharing photographers online.

Seriously, that's not all.

In addition to everything above, you'll get access to instructions on forming or joining a MasterMind Group with other premium members. These groups are super motivating, make you accountable, and build friendships with other pro photographers with motives similar to yours – to build a more successful photography business.

Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what Kim shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, leave your thoughts in the comments below; let me know your takeaways and what you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode.

Eventually, I want people to see my work not only from the Netherlands but from other countries too. – Kim Jongen

If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask Kim, or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to add them in the comments area below.

I check for any new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive these… for several reasons.

Firstly, it's confirmation that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!

Secondly, iTunes and Google are the most significant podcast search engines, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.

When I try to learn something, I watch YouTube videos. You can learn antyhing you want. You just need to look for the right thing. – Kim Jongen

If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.

Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.

Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.​

Mother Puppers Website

Mother Puppers on Instagram

Mother Puppers Studio on Facebook

Episode 563: Julia Semak – How to find the best photo retoucher for your photography business

Thanks again for listening and to Kim for coming on and sharing so many incredible details about her successful business, the marketing she does and how the power of unique branding and original marketing ideas have led to fast growth and success as a pet photographer.

That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!

Thanks, and speak soon

The post 570: Kim Jongen – Mother Puppers… The power of unique branding and original marketing ideas appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.