James Christianson and Otto Schulze of www.jamesandschulze.com and www.sagejourney.co are wedding photographers servicing the ultra-luxury wedding photography market.
They joined forces around 7 years ago after each running individual wedding photography businesses for close to 15 years.
I've heard them say they are still competing with each other, and the only difference is that today, they share a bank account.
They both believe that moving into the premium and luxury space can be a game-changer for any photography business owner.
In this candid interview, you'll hear two self-proclaimed ordinary guys and dads who created an extraordinary business that has been named one of the top 50 photographers in the world by Harper's Bazaar and featured numerous times by Vogue.
To me, ordinary sounds unbelievable when these guys have Photographed the weddings of fashion icon Ralph Lauren’s family and operate in the high-flying circles most of us will only ever dream about.
Here's some more of what we covered in the interview:
What is your big takeaway?
Following this interview, I’d love to know if you're taking anything from what James and Otto shared. Is there something you heard that excited or motivated you to the point where you thought, yeah, I'm going to do that! If so, let me know by leaving your thoughts in the member's FB Group. What are your takeaways? What do you plan to implement in your business based on what you heard in today's episode?
We realised early on, if we want this new brand to take off, we have to hold and say, ‘No, you can't do that,' because otherwise we'll just repeat that cycle for year in and year out. If you hold, the audience takes the message, and so eventually they completely change their minds. – Otto Schulze
If you have any questions I missed or a specific question you’d like to ask James and Otto or if you want to say thanks for coming on the show, feel free to comment inside the Members FB Group, too.
iTunes Reviews and Shout-outs
I check for new iTunes or Google reviews each week, and it's always a buzz to receive them… for several reasons.
Firstly, it confirms that I'm on the right track with the interviews and that they are helping you improve your photography business. That's awesome!
Information is not alluring. So we don't give information. You just show enough to create the hook, and that's that. But it's different with different markets. The ultra luxury buyers' buying psychology, how they buy and how we buy, is not the same as every other market and we understand that. – Otto Schulze
Secondly, iTunes and Google are the biggest search engines for podcasts, and your reviews and ratings help other photographers find PhotoBizX. More listeners mean more interviews and, ultimately, a better show.
If you have left a review in the past, thank you! If you haven't and you'd like to, head to https://photobizx.com/itunes or https://photobizx.com/google. You can leave some honest feedback and a rating, which will help both me and the show. I'll be sure to thank you on the show and add a link to your website or blog if you let me know the URL of your website and your name.
In the beginning it is a hard thing to say, like you almost apologetically, say, “Oh, we charge $30,000,” or whatever it might be, and you just have to say it over and over and over again. Like, say it to my spouse, say it to Otto a bunch of times. Say it to my friends, say it out loud until you believe it. Because if you don't believe it, you can't sell it. – James Christianson
Alternatively, if you've left a review for PhotoBizX and are looking for more backlinks to help your SEO, leave a review for the new Photography Xperiment Podcast. Email me your keywords or phrases and where you'd like me to link them.
Another great way to get a backlink to your site is to send a video testimonial. It doesn't need to be fancy, and your phone will be perfect. Click record and tell me how PhotoBizX has impacted you and your photography business.
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Links to people, places and things mentioned in this episode:
James and Schulze Website
James and Schulze on Instagram
Michelle Rago – full-service boutique planning firm
I honestly think that's the biggest driver of success with them, is just the humility to keep coming, understanding that I'm not the most important thing in their lives. So when I reach out, they're not going, ‘Oh my gosh. It's Otto from James and Schulze.' They're busy, and so I'll just keep coming politely, not annoyingly. – Otto Schulze
TPX11: Bradley Hanson – Get Inspired and Stay True to Your Photographic Vision
Aid Brad Hanson's Rehabilitation Journey
Thank you!
Thanks for tuning in, and a big thank you to James and Otto for sharing their journey. It was inspiring to hear about their approach to building a super-luxury photography brand, staying confident in their pricing, forging meaningful relationships with planners, and empowering all of us to think bigger.
You don't create value by giving stuff away. – Otto Schulze
That’s it for me this week; I hope everything is going well for you in life and business!
Episode Transcript
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PBX593: James and Schulze – The power of persistence breaking into the ultra-luxury photography market
Andrew Hellmich: Today's guests are in the luxury wedding photography market, and they joined forces around seven years ago after each running individual wedding photography businesses for close to 15 years. I've heard them say they're still competing with each other. The only difference today is they're sharing a bank account, and they both believe that moving into the premium and luxury space as a photographer can be a game changer for any photography business owner. They also say that they're two ordinary guys and dads who created an extraordinary business which has been named in the Top 50 Photographers in the World by Harper's Bazaar, and they've been featured numerous times by Vogue. Now to me, ordinary sounds unbelievable when these guys have photographed the weddings of fashion icon Ralph Lauren's family. I'm talking about James and Otto of James and Schulze, and I'm rapt to have them with us now. James and Otto, welcome guys.
Otto Schulze: Ah, such a pleasure. Andrew, thank you for having us.
Andrew Hellmich: You got to tell us first how you guys came to join forces like, were you buddies beforehand? Were you neighbors? Did you know about each other? How did that all happen?
James Christianson: Go Otto.
Otto Schulze: I was hoping you wouldn't say that. I was going to say it. And then I thought, "Ah, I paused too long." No, we both used to live in Colorado. I moved there about just now, 18 years ago, from South Africa, and James is already living there. I think he moved there from California, right? And so when we started our business in Colorado, after a few years, things were running nicely. There was this one guy that kept taking my business, like, "Oh, we went for someone else. We love your work". "Okay, who did you go with?" James Christianson ." " James Christianson ", " James Christianson”. And so eventually I just reached out and I said, "Look, let's just meet", you know. And it turns out he's pretty nice, and I, you know. And so we became friends. And what followed then was like once or twice a year, when each one of us would have our biggest events, I would bring him, he would bring me. And when we did this, the quality of the work, the experience, the collaboration, the flow, was just on another level fast for the clients. And so we just, we kind of joked that we just did this one time too many, to the point where it's like, why do it alone? And so we said, "Look, let's start James and Schulze. Let's go after only the truly exceptional. Let's not do those events two or three times a year. Let's only do those". And that's here we are. Like you said, bank accounts shared.
Andrew Hellmich: And so when you say those events, are you referring to the larger weddings, the big clients?
Otto Schulze: Yeah, like, yeah, the ultra-luxury events, right? The events that really, anything is on the table. You know.
James Christianson: It's those events that gave us the taste of what we do now, right? Where we were doing lots of, we would do 20 weddings a year, each of us. There'd be three or four every year that are just next level.
James Christianson: And those are, like, we just need, just that any ordinary second photographer won't do? We need another, somebody who has..
James Christianson: Yeah, skill in this craft. Not that second photographers don't have skill. But you know what I mean.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, 100%.
James Christianson: Yeah. We just want a little more, little extra sauce on this.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. You want someone to take ownership of, you know, what they're really doing out there? Tell me who was the first of you two that approached the other one and actually said, you know, laid it out. How about we join forces? And was that uncomfortable? Who was that guy?
Otto Schulze: That's a, who was that guy?
James Christianson: Probably have different recollection of this. I mean, the way I remember is we, we photographed the wedding. It was Otto's wedding. It was probably, like, he said, our third or fourth, if the time we'd done this, in Wyoming. And, you know, it's a bit of a drive back from Wyoming to Denver, three or four hours. And like, just talking about, like, the experience of what we just did, like, all these things, and we just, I remember, kind of go, "Like, we should just do this together all the time"
James Christianson: And like we tend to do now that we're partners, even, you know, Otto and I are both people who like to jump off cliffs, like literally and figuratively. You know, we're we like to dream big, and we don't mind taking risks.
Andrew Hellmich: I love it.
Otto Schulze: It's probably why we have so many kids. We have so many kids. That's why, that's what happened.
Andrew Hellmich: That is amazing. And the reason I ask is I imagine that would be like you're putting yourself out there when you ask the other guy, Hey, even if you just suggest it like it's a scary thing, because there is that possibility of rejection when you both sort of finish that drive home. I'm guessing you both, "Yeah, this is a good idea". Do you go to a solicitor? Do you go to a lawyer and have a partnership agreement drawn up? Do you take it that seriously that quickly, or do you just say, "Let's just see how it goes for 12 months".
Otto Schulze: Now you definitely go to your wife first before you go to the lawyer. Now, I mean, all joking aside, that's the thing, right? Like, I think, because we're both dreamers, once the idea was verbalized, whoever said it first, the other one went "I like that idea". And so I think for both of us, we got home going, "This is exciting", and then it was like a little bit of reality, like telling people, a family, and they're going, "Okay, well, what?". And then there's a risk in it, right? We both had successful businesses, and now you're kind of like, so then all of that, that transition phase started, but I think once we'd had the conversation, we were both like, yeah, there's, "I'm a lot better with him", there's the bottom line, to be quite honest.
Andrew Hellmich: Sure, sure. Look, my aiming here isn't to make you guys uncomfortable. I mean, I went through this conversation when I formed a partnership with my past business partner. She went on to have kids and a family, so we dissolved the partnership, but the first thing we did was like, well, all the same. We both went home excited, but with we said, you know, "We better go and see a solicitor". And they, the solicitor asked questions of us that we would never even have considered. Did you go through that same experience?
James Christianson: We did draw up an agreement. I think we ended up using something like a Rocket Lawyer, or we didn't actually go to an attorney, but we did create a legal document together, going through all of that, and we continue to do that as often as we can. Where we rethink our goals, we look at our revenue go, is the life insurance that we have on each other, is that you get to cover one of us if, for God forbid something happens to us, like..
James Christianson: Which reminds me, we probably should do that again here.
Andrew Hellmich: That's right. And these are the things you do have to consider. I mean, if God forbid something does happen, the other one's got to cover all those expenses the other weddings. So what happened with your existing weddings. I imagine you both had 10 or 20 weddings on the books. What happened with those?
Otto Schulze: Yeah, I mean, the first year, we just kind of like grandfathered them in, I guess, you know, like we just shot them as James and Schulze, you know, together. And, yeah, I suppose the first year or so, I think that's how far we had things booked out. And then it was just, you know, our work from then on.
James Christianson: Honestly, the hardest, I think, if I remember back, the hardest part of it was basically convincing those wedding planners and those creative partners that we had already worked with that "No, James and Schulze was the thing", because we would get people like, "Can we just hire James?" Or "Could we just hire Otto?", like, that's what we're used to, that's what we're comfortable like, we know it's at this price and not double that price or triple that price. Can we just go back to and we realized really quickly, no, we have to go, No, yeah, this is, this is where we're going, and this is the only offer that we have available.
Andrew Hellmich: Right? Okay, that made sense.
Otto Schulze: And it's tough in the beginning, right? Because you need money, and it's easy to just go, "Sure, you can hire James or Otto", but we realized early on, if we want this new brand to take off, we have to hold and say, "No, you can't do that", because otherwise we'll just repeat that cycle for year in and year out. And so that was tough a little bit. But eventually branding, right? If you hold the audience takes the message, and so eventually they're like, and now you'll talk to the same people, and they completely changed their minds, right?
James Christianson: Just, yeah, now we're going on year nine. Maybe this coming year will be year nine for us, so.
Andrew Hellmich: Wow. Okay, so did you guys both dissolve or take down your own websites? And you know, have had the joint ones pretty much straight away?
James Christianson: Yeah, because we were forwarding everything to the new one. And yeah, but yeah, we dissolved. We completely dissolved.
Otto Schulze: We had to. We tried to, at first, to keep both going, but the planners told us, like, "When you're ready to launch James and Schulze, tell us, and then we'll sell James and Schulze", we're not doing this like Plan B scenario. So yeah, we had to jump, which we did.
Andrew Hellmich: Talking about revenue, I mean, this had to make financial sense as well to form a partnership, and I promise we're going to get into the luxury wedding market in just a second. But you form the partnership, it's got to be financially viable. It's got to make sense, especially to the family, to your partners and your wives. Did you restructure your price list? Did you stay with the same price list? Did you triple your prices?
James Christianson: Both of us, individually, were already shooting, charging 12 to 15, 18,000 on our own. So yeah, we had to at least double. And then that double, we were like, okay, that's not really the goal. The goal is to elevate, to go after even bigger, because Colorado is an amazing wedding market, and there's certain pockets in Colorado, Aspen, Telluride, where, you know, you get the stars, you get Ralph Lauren, you get everybody, who's anybody coming. And what was happening to us at that former price point was, we'll fly so and so in from New York, or we'll fly so and so in from, you're great, but to the local Colorado, when we were like, "No, we're the best in the world", that's what we wanted. We wanted to be the best in the world, and so the price had to reflect that. And so did the work, quite frankly. So that's where we went.
Andrew Hellmich: I love it. So you guys are sitting at that 12 to 18k mark individually. Let's say you double and a half or triple your price. So there's no prices, obviously on your website, what does the client pay today?
Otto Schulze: Yeah, I mean back then we doubled it, back then we started around 34k, that was back when we started James and Schulze. And now we're double that on average.
Andrew Hellmich: 60k, 60 to 70k
Otto Schulze: Yeah, a little bit above.
James Christianson: 64k is what our average is for 2025.
Andrew Hellmich: 60. Okay, that number, it sounds mind blowing to me, like, I'm like, "Whoa". How does it feel when it rolls off your tongues, James?
James Christianson: You know, it's interesting. You know, we have this education piece, and people are always saying, like, "Okay, if I charge double my prices, like, on Monday, I charge 5,000 and on Tuesday, I charge 10,000, what? What actually happened? How do we create this value?" I always say, and this is from my own experience with what we're talking about right now is, without the belief, like the value isn't there. And so we've had to learn to truly believe in ourselves and believe in the value, that the value is there, that we're going to provide an exceptional experience, that we're going to provide an experience that really nobody else can provide. And we believe that. But in the beginning, it is hard thing to say, like you almost apologetically, say, "Oh, we charge 30,000 or 30" or whatever it might be, and you just have to say it over and over and over again, like, say it to my spouse, say it to Otto a bunch of times. Say it to my friends. Say it out loud until you believe it.
James Christianson: Because if you don't believe it, you can't sell it.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, so I saw a post just today in another online photographer's Facebook group, and they're all about big sales. And one of the girls in there, one of the female photographers, made her biggest sale that she's ever made, but she said she actually feels uncomfortable. It's not sitting well with her. She's excited, but she just feels almost guilty. Do you guys go through any of that?
Otto Schulze: I have two community kids to feel guilty about that, so it's a solid no for me. But I think the thing that does shift is and has shifted fast as well. We're two middle class boys, right? We grew up like that. We're not billionaires, we're not our clients. And so in the beginning, when you hear, as a photographer, 10k, I remember first time I heard that, I was like, "That's undoable", but you put it in your context of a middle class person, so you think it's a lot, and that's why you feel like that, because like, "Oh my gosh, that's like a house down payment". But with these little clients, like, it's been years since anybody has brought up budget, even clients, they don't bring up numbers, because that's not the game here. They buy what they want. And so the whole rate thing shifts in perspective too, once you realize that you're like, "Oh, wait a minute, like, maybe that's not actually enough". But it all shifts, for sure, it really does.
Andrew Hellmich: And did you have to change the way you dress, the car you drive? Do you have to be conscious about the background if you're having a zoom call, you know, with one of these new clients that, you know, it's 60, $70,000. Did those things change in your life?
James Christianson: Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, when you double your prices, or triple your prices, anytime you're trying to elevate, and I always say, like, I'm the type of person I'm going to get in over my head and swim to the top. And when you do that, you all of a sudden, you start looking around and go, and it's part of the belief that I was talking about earlier. You go, "Wait a minute. I'm saying that it's this. But now that I look at the competition that these two things don't line up, like, I've got to rebrand. I have to, like, change the copy. I have to how I show up to the wedding". Like we're talking about, every wedding we go to is a black tie event, almost, right? Everyone is wearing a tuxedo. So you can't walk in with khakis and a button down. It's gotta, you have to change. And, yeah, we're putting people occasionally in our car. It can't be, you know, a cheap we can't roll up with the cheap rental with McDonald's all in the background, in the back seat, right? We, we have to show up in a car, that is, you know, we're having to just show up in a Bugatti, but we have to, it has to be on par with what their experience is.
James Christianson: To answer your question, yes. I mean, everything has to change.
Andrew Hellmich: Everything has to change. And then the family too?, Or it's just you guys are the face of the business, that's all anyone's ever going to see.
Otto Schulze: No, yeah, it's separate complete. I mean, I live in Mexico, so my normal wears board shorts and no shirt, you know. So no, like, and when we're traveling, we're renting cars. So, like, the way we live is the way we live. There's a line between Otto and James, and James and Schulze, those are separate entities. Now, obviously we make up James and Schulze, but we very much put on that identity. You know what I mean? When we work, when we shoot, when we interact with clients, it's not, it's real, it's authentic, but it's not me and you individually. You know what I mean?
Andrew Hellmich: I love it.
James Christianson: Yeah, it's the best, James and Schulze is the best version of us, right?
Otto Schulze: Like, yeah, it's us with long pants.
Andrew Hellmich: James, you said earlier that, you know, when you looked at the competition you and the fact that you guys wanted to increase your pricing, that the experience had to change the experience that you're delivering. Now, I hear experience gets thrown out a lot by a lot of photographers from all different budgets. What do I get in regards to experience for $70,000 that I don't get for 10?
James Christianson: Well, that's a great question. It depends. I think the things that we do are often things that you could do at any wedding and provide a better experience. So for us, it's truly honing in on what is it this client wants, you know ahead of time, like, what is your vision for this day? What is the guest going to experience? And then making sure that we integrate with that experience and that we try to elevate that experience. So an example might be, "Hey, we just want to be in the moment, we want to be present throughout". So now all of a sudden, photography is going to be put into the background. You paid in $68,000 to be here, but photography might be in the background. You're going to be captured. And it's not about the photography today. This is about your wedding and about your guests and the moments of being present, right? And we're shifting our photography to accommodate that. I think the second piece is like really understanding and being able to read a room. I will say to most clients like, I know that your day is going to be different because we're there, and it's because of the way we are going to behave and the way we're going to act. We're going to see stress occurring and help mitigate it. By the way we behave, we're not just gonna press in regardless of how you're feeling right now, because "The shot, the shot, I've got to get the shot", right?. No, the shot doesn't occur if they're not in the right space. So we'll step back and, like I said, like, that's not rocket science. You could do that at any level of event, but people tend to not do that,
Andrew Hellmich: So Otto, on that point, do you get the chance, or do you both get the chance to have a good conversation with all of your clients you know about the wedding and what they're looking for from the photography because I imagine sometimes, I don't, I imagine maybe you don't even get to talk to some of the clients and the planner books you, is that right?
Otto Schulze: Yeah. I mean, oftentimes we don't, all of our clients we only meet at the rehearsal dinner with a welcome party for the first time, because they travel. We all travel. Yeah, no, that is right.
James Christianson: But I would say, I would say, 80% of the clients we're able to talk to ahead of time.
Otto Schulze: One call, that, before they book us. And then once that goes off, they're busy, you know? And it's very little contact, yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: So then who's your point of contact? Is it the wedding planner?
Otto Schulze: Planner, yeah, they are like the grand conductor of the whole thing, right? So that's the main point of contact for us. But again, like James says, It depends it flows with clients, right? Sure, for the most part, yes.
Andrew Hellmich: So what happens, James, to your point, if the client has booked you because the planners referred you, and they've gone to your website. They've seen these, you know, these elegant, beautiful photos that are still like in the moment, and dresses flowing and everyone's having fun. But they tell you, "Listen, just leave us alone. We want you in the background". But they've booked you on the premise that they've seen those images that you created. How does that work for you guys at that price point? ,
James Christianson: Well, I mean, we're never going into a space blind like that. We're always and we're almost 95% of time we're having at least one call with a client before they book us, so we have a clear understanding. And it's during that time we're like, "Tell us about your vision. How do you see this?". We're taking copious notes and truly understanding. Now, occasionally stress, like at any level of wedding, stress can change someone's behavior, their personality, and all of a sudden you're dealing with like, "Oh, I only have five minutes". And I think that might also be, you know, if you are master of your craft, and you're given five minutes to make a beautiful photograph, right? That's why we get paid, what we get paid, and sometimes that does help happen. We get five minutes with the bride and groom, and are expected to create magic in that five minutes. Am I saying we never miss anything? No, like, that's not the case. But working well under pressure is part of that price tag.
Otto Schulze: No, leaving ego at the door. For sure, it's all about the clients, not about us, the artists or our work or our vision or our story. It's all about them, and that's how we operate. So if things move on the wedding weekend, we move with them. If she's stressed she doesn't want to do the portraits now, even though we've had it scheduled at this time for months, we roll with it. If we have two minutes left, we roll with it. Like, take it away from us, we roll with it. Because we're not the stars at this level. You know, we're just not, I think in the middle market, or some bigger parts of the market, maybe client hires the photographer, and the photographer is a star to them. At this level, like Elton John is playing after dinner for two songs. Like, we are not stars by any means. So that background role, I think again, we hear that price tag, and we think, "Oh, this photographer must do something special". But I'm like, like I said, these clients don't even consider money often, like they don't know what they paid us. And so they come in and they go, "Here's how I feel, here's what I want", and we just go listen and we say, "Tell us more". And then we take that brief and we shoot, you know, and it works nice.
James Christianson: And rarely is it in a demanding way, right? When we're saying, like, whatever they want. It's not like we have all these brides like stomping their feet and say, "I want this". I would say for the majority of our clients, it's a beautiful experience. It is a thing that people are grateful and kind and respect..
Otto Schulze: Beautiful families, yeah.
James Christianson: And full of trust, of us.
Andrew Hellmich: I love it. That must be pretty, pretty incredible events to be a part of. Are you signing things like NDAs and, you know, and copyright agreements where you can't share anything.
Otto Schulze: To varying levels. Sometimes it's just, you know, sometimes it's a buyout, you know, we lose the rights to the images entirely. Other times, it's partial, yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: So, and do you guys negotiate those sort of terms?
Otto Schulze: Yeah. I mean, we ask clients what, some clients will come to you right off the bat, with the planner, "Here's the client, here's the date, here's the details" and yet, complete buyout done, you know. And others come with, you know, varying levels of that. So you go "Tell me more, what's the real concern? What's the real thing you want?" "Okay, it's this cool. You want to buy out. You need the rights. You're just nervous about not looking good on Instagram. We can manage that for you, free. So let's talk about that", you know.
Andrew Hellmich: You're just creating an easy solution for them to book you and give them what they want.
Andrew Hellmich: I guess, just like most of us, but you're doing it at a different level.
Otto Schulze: What was that word that we heard recently, James? "Frictionless", who said that 'frictionless'? A frictionless process.
Andrew Hellmich: That's nice.
Otto Schulze: This is in my head. Maybe it was a dream. Anyway..
Andrew Hellmich: That is nice.
Otto Schulze: Frictionless. Yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: I'm gonna move it to the point of view of the listener in just a second, because I know they're gonna be just as interested as me in the questions I'm asking you, but I also want to know how they can improve their own businesses. But what does your client get these days? As far as deliverables? Are you delivering an album? I can't imagine you sending them a Dropbox folder of files. What's happening at the end of the day?
James Christianson: Yeah, our deliverables are a Pic-time gallery. So they're good. It's 1000 images, depending on the event, sometimes much more than that, and they have the downloadable rights to the high resolution image. There are personal rights to those, and that's, and our time. That's really what our creative fee and what the deliverable is. And yes, we do can and create an album, and do create albums, but that's an additional cost, and we usually do that a year, two years after the event.
Andrew Hellmich: Right. So do you know what happens with your images after? Do they hire someone to put an album together or a slide show or create a website? And what do they do with their photos?
Otto Schulze: I mean, honestly, oftentimes, very little, James, like they look at them. They like some the first few months, and then they disappear for like, a year or two, and then they come back and we do them an album, you know, increasingly very little lace prints, I think. Yeah, sorry, James, go ahead.
James Christianson: No, just to say, like, we've been in several homes, though, after the fact where they've hired, they have a designer on retainer, potentially. And you know, they give that, in this put the frames together, here's the images. They print them, and they're hanging in their home. But, yeah, they didn't have, they had an assistant contact the interior designer to do the work, because, again, they've hired someone they trust to build this entire home and to furnish this entire home and design it all to the T and that's what they're gonna, it's gonna all integrate
Andrew Hellmich: Without the designer that you just mentioned, I mean, these clients, they sound like everyday clients for any photographer who's listening, who shoots weddings, but it's just the biggest, I don't know, just they're spending more money, and the money probably feels the same to them, or maybe even less so, like you've said, Otto.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah. And then they're not even doing something with the photos.
Otto Schulze: But that's what we're saying there, right? There's this idea about luxury, that people are stuffy, and it's a bridezilla. Our experience, as long as we've been doing this, the exact opposite. It's like incredibly beautiful families, like wealthy, yes, but these are just two kids that are in love, are getting married like one experience for their family and their friends, and sure, they get to go to Italy and to a desert oasis and all these cool things. But ultimately, it's just people connecting. It's the same. It's very similar. It's just everything is just run better. Sure it's organized.
James Christianson: And as I hear you say that Otto, it's almost like the luxury at the weddings that we photograph is the connection, right? That's the thing that they're hungry for more than anything, is an experience with the people that they really care about. And how can we spend three or four days really connecting?
James Christianson: Unplug, walk through the streets of Avione, France and enjoy this time together, like that's the luxury, because it's great and we get to capture those moments, so.
Andrew Hellmich: Sounds amazing. How many weddings do you say yes to in a year?
Otto Schulze: Right now, we're at 10 to 12 is a nice spot for us.
Andrew Hellmich: That sounds like a nice lifestyle, too, for you guys.
Otto Schulze: Yeah. I mean, we travel for all of them, and all of them are, you know, 2-3-4, day events. So it's a lot. Even at 10 or 12, it's a lot. It feels like a lot.
Andrew Hellmich: Knowing what you guys know now, what you've experienced, what you've lived. So for the listener, let's say they are charging $5,000 for a wedding, and they want to get to 10, 15, 20. One of the things I hear a lot is great clients are made, not found. But to me, it sounds like you guys, they're finding you. It's a bit different, I don't know. So what do you think about that photographer wants to go from 5 to 10, 15, or $20,000 for their weddings? Is that easily doable? Well, what should they do to get there? Big question, I know. Sorry, James.
Otto Schulze: Yeah, yes. And no one, gocha, James.
James Christianson: Well, yeah, I would say that, our premise are, the given for us, is that the photography has to be great, right? There's a lot of people that go, oh, the we say it all the time, the photography doesn't matter at some level, but below a certain point, all of a sudden, the photography matters, right? There's other photographers that are better photographer than I am, not better than Otto, which is why I partnered with him, but certainly better people, better photographers than me, that are charging far less, right? And could they move up fairly seamlessly? Yes, if your skill level and your ability with people is not to a certain level yet, then I think you're gonna, it's in a hard row to hoe, as they say.
Andrew Hellmich: You know, just moving from that 5 to 10, 15, or $20,000 and I'm happy to explore the photography for a second. So when you say the photography has to be great, and I can see Otto's nodding, you know, when you're saying that, James. If you ask a photographer if their photography is good, they're going to say yes. So where should they go to have that reassurance that "Yes, your photography is at a level where you can be charging way more than you are". Like, do you go to a peer? Do you put it in a Facebook group? Do you see how many like you get on Instagram?
James Christianson: Hmm, Otto, do you have?
Otto Schulze: No, I don't have anything.
James Christianson: I think you have to hire somebody to tell you that, like to tell you the truth. Because if you put it up in the Facebook group, most people, there'll be a couple trolls, and then most people going, "Oh, this is great", but I think you need to hire a professional, whether it's another wedding planner that you go, "Hey, can I give you $1,000 for two hours of your time? I really want you to walk through", like or if it's a designer or another, somebody who's already at the level that you are, and just say, "Hit me with it. I want to know, be kind, but give it to me straight".
Otto Schulze: Because the real thing is, when, when you say, is the word good enough I'm like, in my head immediately good enough for who? Because for photographers, the thing is, we're always looking at photos going, "Oh, it's a great photo", and then we show it. And that's not the question for us anymore, is it a great photo? It's like, "What's in it? What are we showing? What's the story? What's the content?". You know what I mean? "Is it what my target demographic, my target client, wants to see?". That's the question. And most photographers haven't even asked that question. They sit down and we start imagining, like, making up this ideal client that we want, which doesn't exist for one, and then two, we're just resourcing ourselves. So we keep curating for ourselves that constantly misses. And so I think James is right, you have to find somebody that knows that space, that can say, like, "Yeah, it's a great image, but for this audience, it's a miss". You know, and it's little things like, "What's in it? What chairs are in it? The ceremony scene, it's a bunch of white lawn chairs". Nobody's going to look at that and go, "Oh, white lawn chairs. Yuck". But for the luxury buyer, it's a subconscious pattern, pattern break. It's not what they're looking for. And then they move on. The photographer goes, "But look at the flare", "Look at the bowl cut.” Nobody cares. Nobody cares.
Andrew Hellmich: So did you guys? Did you have to change your style when you went from, you know, $20,000 to $60,000?
Otto Schulze: I think how we shoot and feel and into it as photographers is still very similar. It's developed more. But what did change, is what we look for. You know what I mean, like, because in the beginning for me, it was all about my story, the artist, and so I'd walk into a scene, and what appeals to me then is very different. Now, like James said, we sit with the client, and that's what it's about. That's what we shoot for, that's what we move for, that's what we look for. So yeah.
James Christianson: Which kind of, quite honestly, has been so fun.
James Christianson: Because it's, if anyone's listening to this that you know, like, weddings are formulaic, right? You know what's going to happen at any point of the day. But for us, we're going into almost like, we treat this like an advertising brief. Tell us what you want, what is the story we're telling? What is important? Who is important? Like, what is the vibe that you're trying to communicate? What is the portrait of the event going to look like from, you know, you put 100 images together to tell a story, what is it that you want that to look like? So every wedding, we're looking for something a little bit different. Now, obviously we're still drawn to what we're going to be drawn to.
James Christianson: Personality and light and beauty, all those types of things, but the context that is around all those things that get everything that gets filled into the gaps is different each time.
Andrew Hellmich: So I imagine for you guys, the focus has to be on the people, the connection, those, the people at the event, more so than anything else. Because you've said, this is the big part of these days, is that, that coming together, that connection. But then if you see the 100 white lawn chairs in great light, I mean, do you still shoot that?
Otto Schulze: Oh yeah, yeah, we shoot a lot of it. Because for us, there really is like two, almost two sets of clients here, right? There's the client and their family and their needs, and that's first and foremost. But then with our events, it's a massive production team, planners, designers, and so they've spent years, months working in the design, sourcing it all. And so we go out of our way photographing that for them specific. The clients look at the details. They go, "Oh, wow, this is too beautiful". Then they walk on. The planner and the designer is going to sit with that for days, weeks. And so yeah, we, we spend a great deal of time photographing that specifically for them to serve them.
James Christianson: Yeah, and Andrew, it's, it's not white lawn chairs, it's hand-crafted chairs. You know, each one handmade for this event specifically or sourced from. I remember photographing a wedding in a chapel that this gentleman built himself, and he bought the doors off of a church in Portugal and had them shipped to his property and installed in this little chapel. It was a beautiful stone looked like from Ireland, stone chapel that fit like 30 people, and these doors were from 1500 like..
Andrew Hellmich: It's amazing
James Christianson: You know, so that's the kind of thing. So, yes, those doors get photographed. And it's not like, you know, just your normal exit door, all right.
Andrew Hellmich: So again, it sounds like you guys are shooting the way I would shoot a $5,000 wedding. I'm going to shoot for the planner, the florist, the decorator, as much as I am the client. So what's another thing that I need to do to get from my 5000 to my $20,000 weddings, and let's assume that my photography is good enough, I've hired someone. They said, "Yeah, look, you're way undervalued".
Otto Schulze: I mean, I'd say assuming the work is good and all of that's in order, my brand makes sense, you know, it's not a mess. The biggest thing is source. These clients are not googling for their vendors, for their team, right? They hire a planner, and the planner is the source. And so the first thing if you want to move from five to 20 or 30 or 50k weddings is source. You're going to have to move away from this setting Google traps, and they come to it, and you take them in, and you're going to have to start getting good at sales and outreach and connecting with people, and that really becomes the job more than photography. Like most of our hours are spent reaching out to planners and partners, connecting, listening, doing the same thing we do with clients, like tell us more, and then trying to bring value to them beyond just the photography. And so I think if you want to make that move, that is the flow. There's no other way to do it in luxury and ultra luxury.
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, I can see James is nodding here, so let us explore that a little bit. So I mean, how does a planner get onto your radar? Do you see them? Do you read about them in the, I don't know, in a magazine? Do you know who's who in Colorado or around the world now?
Otto Schulze: Yeah, we're writing them.
James Christianson: Sorry. I didn't hear that.
Andrew Hellmich: Did you say if they're on the internet, you're writing them? Is that what you said?
James Christianson: Yeah, pretty much.
James Christianson: Yeah. I mean, as Otto's saying, like we cast the net wide, you know, as when we're looking for building out a list, like, who are we going to connect with? But I think the nuance of, how do you actually go about building relationship, like real relationship and providing real value is where the magic is. And most photographers will hear this and say, "Oh, I hate cold calling. I hate sales. I'm not doing it". "These guys are crazy. We're not doing it". We love sales, yes, but we're not sales people. We're connectors and we're relationship builders, so we never are going to planner with our handout saying, "Hey, what do you have for? I know we've never met", and this is what most people do. "I know we've never met, I know you've never heard of me, but can I work with you? What work can you give me?"
Otto Schulze: "My work is amazing"
James Christianson: Not that overt, but it's not far from it. And so the hard work is in. "How do I go and provide value to Michelle Rago? I've never met Michelle Rago. Michelle, if you don't know Michelle Rago, look up Michelle Rago. She's out of New York. Michelle Rago Destinations incredible, and there's lots of incredible planners. I just thought of Michelle. But like, if they, "How do I go to her and start a relationship?", "Well, what can I do to build value? How can I bring value to her?". And that's where there is in the difficulty and the hard work is in trying to understand and read, actually going and reading her website, maybe actually following a bunch of posts that she's making. Maybe it's reading a bunch of magazine articles, not magazines, that's so 1990s, reading a bunch of articles online that she talks about her clients. To really get into how she understands a client. And that's just the beginning. And now I could maybe write her and go, "Hey, Michelle, love what you do. I read such and such a thing. Would love to get involved with your support of the Humane Society". Maybe it's not even related to weddings, because that, you know, she's dealing with, like we're saying, ten million dollar weddings. She's not gonna just go, "Yeah, sure, here. Take it. Let's see what you can do with this". But if you can go and show her, "Hey, I see that you support this. Let me show you what I can do there". I'm just pulling off top my head an example of value and saying, "This is what I can do for you. I've done the work of understanding what you care about, and now I'm here to provide value". And sometimes that might be just a connection, right? "I see you are in Mexico. I know this general manager at such and such a property. I'd love to connect the two of you". That's huge, that's huge value for somebody. And yeah, they've done the work to go have met that General Manager. All of this is how we build momentum and build relationships, so that we have this Rolodex. And many of you are gonna have to look up what a Rolodex is.
Andrew Hellmich: Back to the 90s.
James Christianson: Yeah, I'm old. Now you have this Rolodex of contacts and actual relationships that you can just keep plugging people in back and forth. And that's really how we've built this.
Andrew Hellmich: What are you going to say, Otto?
Otto Schulze: Then I'm saying, as I listened to him, to the question of, how do you get from five or 10 to 60? That's how, because photographers go the work, my work is good enough. But that's not the question. It's this that he's described me now. It's the market research. It's the city and looking for the nuances, and then bringing them back to the planners, finding that value. Like you said, it's like, I live in Mexico. The moment we moved here, I went to all the properties, the Four Seasons, the One&Only, the AU bears. They all know us, right? And now, when planners worldwide flow through the area, and I'm, we're watching them, right, we can see they're in town, we make the connections, because we know there's value for James and Schulze in the connection, there's value for the property, there's value for the planner. And if you do this consistently over time, this stacks up to a valuation that's very high. You know? It's like the Gucci white t shirt thing, right? You buy a Haynes white t shirt for 40 bucks, and you buy the Gucci one for $1,300 and yes, the Gucci is nicer, but it's not $1,200 nicer. It's in that story. It's in more than that. And that's, I listen to James. I’m like, ‘There it is. That's the difference.’
Andrew Hellmich: So is that a real life example, James, did you go and see Michelle? Is that how you got in touch with Michelle, or made that connection?
James Christianson: Well, it was kind of a mix of several different interactions we've had with different planners, and kind of how we've gotten in.
Andrew Hellmich: Right, okay. So then let me just ask you a little bit more about that and go a bit deeper. So let's say you send that email to Michelle or to another planner that you would like to work with. Chances are you don't get in a reply the first time. Do you keep trying until you get "Hey, back off". Like, I know you're there. Or do you just give up after one or two?
Otto Schulze: No, it's a mind shift, shift, right? Like, so when we reach out to a planner, we never think we're gonna reach out and they're gonna just give us work.
Andrew Hellmich: No, no, no but even just to get a response. Like, do you know..
Otto Schulze: Yeah, I know, but right away we look at it's literally, like, if I reach out to somebody for the first time now, I'm working towards eight, nine interactions with them before we get something from it. And so when we write them the first time, and it's a cold one, we're expecting them not to respond, but we're on the list now with them, we're following. And so every quarter we'll pursue we'll keep coming back, like Michelle Rago is a good example. We wrote her for the first time nine years ago, and it took us seven and a half years, actually more than that, to get our first booking with her. And then from that first booking, another two years to the next one, and then now we're in business for years, and so we've had to repeat that with so many planners, because, you know, to convert, for our 10 to 12 events a year that it's layer upon layer. And I think for most photographers, that patience, that consistency and persistence, that's where they get stuck. You know, you hear something new. It's exciting. I want to charge 50,000, I want to lose weight and have a six pack. And so if you go to the gym membership, and then three months later, people drop it. And the real victory is in the people that will just stay 3-4-5-6-7-8, years, and just put it along and just, "I'm here. I'm here, learning, doing it". You know, that's where the conversion comes.
Andrew Hellmich: I love that. It's so true. It's so true. We tend to stop too early, just before we often make a breakthrough. Can you give me some real life or a real life example of what happens when you hear back from a planner that you want to work with? I mean, is the next step? Taking them to dinner? Are you sending them flowers? Are you just, "Hey, here's my website". Like, what's the progression is? If it's over seven years to getting the booking
James Christianson: Look, Andrew, the way you ask questions, and I've listened to your podcasts, you know you're truly curious, and you seem like you genuinely care about what you're asking about, like you're actually interested, you're actually curious. And I think this is no different, like this is what we..
James Christianson: We listen, right? So our goal when we first reach out is always, "Hey, can we just connect on a call and learn more about you and your business?". And we always say, I get a successful call is one where we have talked very little. We don't go with a pitch. And, you know, honestly, if I can get away without ever, ever talking about James and Schulze, inevitably, they're going to ask. But our goal is not with him. "Here I am with the pitch. Let me tell you all about me". It is, let me, "What about you? Like, how did you get here? What are your goals?", And you know, you've, I don't know if you ever heard the term thread-pulling, but someone offers you a thread, you just pull it and see where that thing goes, and..
Otto Schulze: And then they fart, yeah.
James Christianson: Find value in somebody, but what they value? Because I'm listening for "What is it that you need? What does your business need?". Maybe it's not what I offered the last person. And I think that's the mistake people will make as I'm going to try the same templated message to every single planner for six months in a row, and I never, ever try to change it. I just got a bunch of 'no's' or a bunch of ghosting. We're constantly tweaking our messaging like, yeah, oh, this person, let's just today, let me just be bold and say, "Andrew, forgive my boldness. I want to work with you. You guys, you are on the top of our list. Is there anything that", I don't know what it is, but like, one day, it could be really bold in some vibes, it might be more complimentary, like, let me just sometimes it's just encouraging.
James Christianson: That can provide value. "Hey, I know this is a tough season, just want to say, good luck". And you walk away, but that provides like, "Oh, what a nice, nice message". Now the next time I message in six months, maybe they remember you. Maybe they don't, but it's certainly not going to be a negative memory.
Otto Schulze: Yeah. So now they're watching your account, and now you're traveling, you're playing that association game, right? And they see that, and it appeals to them. So your value goes up, a year later, they hear about you again. You're reaching out again. "How's it going out of season?". Or whatever you've, you know, it stacks. It's a, friends talks about you. But if you keep coming in and out of the game, that never happens. If you stay in it, that compounds, like debt. It really works very well.
Andrew Hellmich: Like debt. So true. Do you guys, do you feel like you have a USP, a unique selling point? Like, I'm curious about why? Let's say Michelle again. Stay with Michelle Rago, why would she take a chance on booking you for the very first time? Why would she?
Otto Schulze: I mean, I think the work initially, I said, if it's good enough, it's the hook, it gets you the call, it gets you the response, right? Instagram is really good at that. But I think, why did Michelle hire us? I think it's just, I honestly think for most of them, Lynn Easton mentioned this at Engage when she was talking about this. It's persistence. Lots of the planners, the big ones, will tell you, they just didn't go away, right? We just kept coming. Kept coming, right? And so I honestly think that's the biggest driver of success with them, is just the humility to keep coming, understanding that I'm not the most important thing in their lives. So when I reach out, they're not going, "Oh my gosh, Otto from James and Schulze". They're busy. And so I'll just keep coming politely, not annoyingly, but just, yeah, James, you were nodding.
James Christianson: Well, yeah, I think any successful business person understands and especially the excess of that level, understands that what it takes to get to that level is persistence and hard work, and there's no getting around that. And I think that they value that, and they ultimately respect that. So then, if you're in the background going, I'm just continuing, trying to make compelling work, trying to increase and improve my brand, trying to align my brand with whoever it is that I'm trying to go after, right? Like, if it's a group of people, and I'm going to try to reach out to them like that brand, they have to align, right? You can't be like, so far, they're so disparate in your style that just because the style is your work is amazing, they're going to say, "Yes, that's what I want". Doesn't work that way. So you're constantly tweaking, you're constantly improving, and maybe it's just that one improvement that just takes it over, and then the persistence, and then the dam can break.
Andrew Hellmich: So there's nothing overly attractive about your offer to get that first session, that first booking, like "We pay you an extra commission, we'll give you the files the next day", Nothing, there's no, like, little deal sweetness. This is all about relationships, and that's it.
Otto Schulze: Right. Because, no, because think about this now, right? Like, you don't create value by giving stuff away. We're dealing at the highest level here, right? So if you go into, like an estate into a Macy store, they're immediately telling you deals, discounts, because that's their audience. The product store is not the same story. And so when you're dealing with a Michelle Rago or Lynn Easton, photographers' first instinct is to roll in and go "Three head shots. I'll do this for you. I'll do that for you". And maybe they take it, maybe they don't, but it doesn't actually bring value and a psychology, it's not very good for you from a sales perspective.
Otto Schulze: And so, what is the energy that you're talking about, James? With or without your energy?
James Christianson: With or without your energy, yeah.
Otto Schulze: You have to come with, with or without your energy. So we know, as photographers, we're there. We are really there. Like, "Give me some work", right? That's really why we're there. But you can't come with that energy. And so you come with, like, James and Schulze energy, you put that on, you know, "We are accomplished. We are successful. Here we are. We want to work with you. You are amazing". You know, like that kind of energy, I think people feel that confidence, because, again, they are like us. The planners are not billionaires. They're also not their clients. So what we're looking for is what they need, exposure, more business, confidence, you know.
James Christianson: Professionalism, right? Like, sometimes, it's as small as that. Like, I can't tell you how many times I've talked to a planners, like, yes, someone will write me and I'll write them back, and then two weeks later, they finally are returning my email. I'm like, "How am I going to trust you with a client when you can't, you wrote me first, and now it's two weeks later, you still haven't written me back". It doesn't, you can't play that way. You have to be on it.
Andrew Hellmich: Do you feel you have to be the photographer, has to be of a certain age to be able to be charging the kind of premiums that they might want to?
Otto Schulze: Yes, that's a tough one. And I'm thinking about that. I want to say 'no' in general. Now, I think in general, maybe that 'yes', there is something to that, James?
James Christianson: Because I think that these have a certain level of experience, right?
Otto Schulze: Yeah, because with these clients, the family, is also hiring you often, right? So, like, maybe there is something to that. I know they like hiring principals and owners, you know, as opposed to associates and..
Otto Schulze: I don't know what the correct..
Andrew Hellmich: I can't imagine a 20-25 year old charging $60,000 and being, I mean, sure they might have amazing work, but can we trust them? That's what I'd be thinking.
Otto Schulze: Yeah, yeah. My point is, just with the 20, whatever, all, it's not enough time to lead up to accessing that business. You're too young.
Andrew Hellmich: Yes, it's true.
Otto Schulze: It's gonna take more time to get there, you know.
James Christianson: Well, there is an example, Caleb Jordan Lee of East West. He started his business at 15, so by the time he was 25, he had 10 years of experience, and he's super talented.
Otto Schulze: But he's an outlier on every people.
James Christianson: I know I'm saying it's, it is doable.
Otto Schulze: No, it's possible. Totally. I'm just saying, you meet that guy and you're like, "Okay, I get okay", "Cool, man".
Andrew Hellmich: Okay, he really is an outlier. Did you both feel like once you had that first booking from one of these high-end planners, or you got a certain price point that 60, $70,000, when you got the first time? Did you have that confirmation that, yeah, we're on the right track? Did it get easier, or did you, it was going to come anyway?
Otto Schulze: No, I kind of think the grind stays the same. It's like in you play Mario Brothers, the game, and you eat the mushroom, and you get bigger, you have a little bit more power, but you still have to put in the reps for the thing to run. You still have to crank it or it stops. So I've never had them. Even with these rates, I've had moments where I've gone, "Whoa. I can't believe we're charging that". And there's moments of like, satisfaction, where you look at it and you go, "That's pretty cool", like, especially as a South African, I'm like, "Good Lord, that makes no sense financially". But no, there's no arrival, because even for us now, if we take our foot off this for a few months, we'll go out of business, quick.
Andrew Hellmich: You've got to stay front and center.
Otto Schulze: You have to, you really do, yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: Wow. I think I know the answer to this, because you said just a few minutes ago that your planners aren't your clients either, but you have to be worried about what you curate and put a line for your personal social media accounts. Like, do you show you and your family and your shorts and T shirts in Mexico on the beach and, you know, and James, you're doing what you do on the weekends with your family? Do you have to sort of keep that totally separate? Hey, we better not put that online that doesn't, that doesn't fit with that image.
Otto Schulze: I mean, we do keep it separate in the sense that on the James and Schulze account, there's no personal stuff in the feed ever, like it's just that pattern is nice and consistent and clear. Our personal Instagram accounts, we do what we do, whatever we want to do, for sure, but I am, I am aware of it for sure, because planners and clients do follow us, and so I'm not unaware, but I'm also not trying to act like James and Schulze as Otto Schulze:, there's some value. The funny thing is, on that side, I feel like, from a branding or perception perspective, there's some value in showing them sometimes, maybe after the fact, the real you, or I'm running an ultra or like that, but we don't mix the two, and that's intentional.
James Christianson: But at the same time, it is part of our brand story, as James and Schulze, the fact that Otto lives, we say this often, "Otto lives in the jungle in Mexico, I live in the woods in Idaho". And it's true. It's not just a fabricated story. It is something we said, these are the lives we want, and we're gonna have to get on an airplane to commute to work, but that's what we want. That's the freedom we want is to live wherever the heck we want to live. Otto can go to the beach tomorrow. I can be on the ski mountain tomorrow. And so that's become, that is part of our story that we tell planners that we'll tell. And again, it's not a story, it's the truth, but we've just used that as part of the brand. And because, if I lived, you know, in downtown, I don't know, downtown Las Vegas. Maybe the story is not my personal life is not so much of the story of the brand as it is right now.
Otto Schulze: In living downtown Las Vegas and like, "What are you doing for a living?", like, "why are you living downtown Las Vegas there?"
James Christianson: Well, it's because I was dropped off there at one point during my early years. And..
Otto Schulze: Not a good story.
James Christianson: Yeah, not a good story.
Andrew Hellmich: So I think you did too, and I did that allude to the fact that you have another platform Sage, where I get the impression like, "This is to help photographers get to that next level". Is that right?
James Christianson: Yes, really it is to help videographers and photographers, creatives, really, because we have painters, we have musicians in the community. It's really, how do I elevate? And when we started this, we were like, "Let's teach people how to get into luxury". And that's it. Is part of that still, but really is, "How do I elevate this, my brand, my business? What do I do? What are the things that I need to do to get to the next level", whatever level that might be. And really, sky's the limit. Yeah, you can go as far as this is you want, and our job is to help you get there.
Andrew Hellmich: So Sage isn't just for the creative that wants to service or serve the luxury market. It's just they want to be better than where they are now.
Otto Schulze: Yeah, I mean, we started it, the initial push was, "You want to go into luxury, and ultra luxury, we did this years of" angle. But as the group grew, most people are not in that position. And you can grow from three to eight, and from eight to 15 into 20, and that's different than growing to 50 or 6100 and so we've just opened that up more in our minds and gone like, "Look, we went from $500 when I arrived in the states 18 years ago, that's what I charged my first wedding, all the way to where we are now. And so we get it. We get the struggle along the way. We get the confusion. We get hitting the ceiling. We get all your friends getting increased, and you're going, 'where's mine?', All of that we've grown and suffered through." And so this community is really saying, like, "Let's share that space". You know, there's people here that know how to get out of this, you know, or beyond it. So that's really the goal.
Andrew Hellmich: Is the fundamentals behind Sage 'relationships'? Or are there other tactics and strategies? Or does it keep coming back to, it sounds to me like networking and relationships are the key. Like, I don't know, maybe there's more in there, but that sounds like that's the one.
James Christianson: No, there is quite I mean, there is way a lot more, we talk. I mean, all the principles of business.
James Christianson: And different strategy of systems and SOPs and branding and sales and pricing and..
Otto Schulze: Psychology, buying psychology.
James Christianson: All these things matters, right? Because if you can't do this other foundational pieces, like you can build a relationship all you want. And you know the vice versa of that is, if you have a great brand, but you're just sitting at home in your basement and can't get that in front of anybody, you're just gonna keep sitting in your basement.
Otto Schulze: Because this is the double edged sword of the wedding photography industry, is you can just pick up a camera and go from zero next week, you're a wedding photographer. You have a website and you have a client, you have a camera, and you have all of this, and it can be years later and you still don't know who your client is. You've done no market research because you don't know how. You didn't even know you were supposed to do it. You don't know what an SOP is. How would you? And so most wedding photographers in this boat five to 10 years later going, "I've been doing this for 10 years. I don't know what's going on. I still can't pull the lever". And so we're coming in and saying, "Here, it's there. Switch on the light a little bit. Look at this. Look at that", and off you go. Because anybody can do this. That's the honest truth. If we can do it, anybody can do it. And so we just want to make the methods available and say, "Here's how. Now, if you're willing to do it, it's yours for the taking, a whole new life".
Andrew Hellmich: What do you feel is the biggest downfall of the photographer that's trying to make it? Do you think it's what they don't know, or they don't put in the work, or is it something else?
Otto Schulze: Yes, I think it's both of those. It's both of those are pretty good. Ignorance, for sure, you don't know what you don't know, but this consistency thing, I think, is huge for humans, especially for modern humans, because it's easy living right now for the most part. And so most of us don't have this pattern of like, stay in it, stick through it, the results will come, because everything just kind of comes to us already, you know what I mean. And so I think especially with younger photographers, you know, young being under forty, I see that. I see the enthusiasm, and they very quickly lose it. They're not willing, like everything we have, we've had to make happen, all of it. And so we have that pattern strong enough. None of this was given to us. It's a different generation. You know, we're old. So I think just teaching hard work is valuable, you know.
Andrew Hellmich: I agree. I agree. I agree. So how does it work? James, do we go to the website and then is there tutorials? Is there videos? Is there a group? What happens once someone joins the community?
James Christianson: Yeah. So we have quite a bit of, if you come to our website, we do have quite a bit of different types of offerings. We have a couple different courses. We have a, we have one on one mentoring. We have, if you buy the course, you're in an exclusive course members community, where we're active and in there every day with a couple 100 people, all who are going through similar things. One of the things that we've realized through this process over the last two and a half years of building this and creating this is that we had this course, and then we had this kind of community. After the course, we're realizing what people really need and what they really want is community. It's difficult to just gather information and then just go, "Okay, I'm going to do this." I mean, that's a great way to start, but you need people around you to support you, to steer you back on track, to hold you accountable and that's so we're about to launch a new community with that, is going to be limited. Everything else will still be available, but this community is really for those like-minded people who really want the exceptional, who are willing to put in the time and the effort. There is no easy button. There's no silver bullet. So if that's what you're looking for, this course and this community is not for you, because it doesn't exist. It really doesn't. We can give you all the tools, we can give you all the strategies. If you don't implement and you actually consistently implement, it's never going to work.
James Christianson: So that's what this community is for, is gathering an exclusive group of like-minded people to come around and just say, "Together, we're going to lift each other up."
Andrew Hellmich: That is nice.
Otto Schulze: Because it's cool. It's been so cool to watch people come into the community and go "Last year I charge $3,000 and I booked five weddings at 15". It's like, it's game changing, right? It's life changing. I know that feeling all of a sudden you can go on holiday with your family, right? Like, that's huge. And so we get that feedback now we're like, "Man, that's good payment".
Andrew Hellmich: That is awesome.
James Christianson: It's providing us so much purpose in our own lives. Are, I know you're probably trying to shut this thing down.
Andrew Hellmich: No, no, no.
James Christianson: Creating so much purpose for us. I used to be a teacher, and one of the reasons I love teaching was watching those light bulbs come on for people and go, "Man, I think I could do this thing for the rest of my life", whatever that might be, and we're getting that satisfaction all over again, helping people and going like out of saying this is truly life changing for me, because before I was shooting 40 weddings a year, like working weekends, working six days a week, grinding 60 hours a week, and I still don't have enough money. I thought I would do this so I didn't have to have a nine to five job. But holy crap, that's not what's happening.
Andrew Hellmich: You're putting in twice as many hours.
James Christianson: I know I have my job, and another nine to five job.
Otto Schulze: No health insurance anymore. That's gone now.
James Christianson: It doesn't have to be that way.
Andrew Hellmich: I didn't ask you, are most of your weddings on the weekends still with your clients, or is it different?
Otto Schulze: Yeah. I mean, we typically arrive, like Wednesday, wherever we are, like, It's a Thursday night event, typically welcome party, Friday night rehearsal, Saturday or Sunday wedding and then the brunch, yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: Nice. With the education side of things, guys, where is the best place for the listener to go to find out about this community, the strategies and tactics and connect more with you guys.
James Christianson: You can find us at sagejourney.co and there's all sorts of free resources. There's links to our communities. We have a free community, and then also a place where you can come to find the courses as well. We'll find, we'll get you a special link to put down here below where you can just get a little more directly into the community, and maybe we'll come up with something great for your listeners.
Andrew Hellmich: Amazing. That'd be awesome. I'll add links to that in the Show Notes underneath the audio here. I'll also add links to your social media profiles and your actual website. And what I really love about your website is it feels like, with no disrespect here, but that's not where all the hours and hours and hours are going into, it's more into the relationship. The website is almost like a mini brochure with some beautiful photos. It's a dream website for most photographers, but that's not where the work's going on. That's happening in the background
Otto Schulze: Very intentionally, so yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: Yeah, which we've heard, I love that.
Otto Schulze: Information is not alluring, so we don't give information, you know, you just show enough to create the hook, and that's that. But it's different with different markets. We have to say that, right? The ultra luxury buyers buying psychology, how they buy and how we buy, is not the same. Well, my wife information is helpful. Maybe if she was a billionaire, it wouldn't be, you know, wouldn't matter. But, yeah.
Andrew Hellmich: Guys, I have absolutely loved this conversation. I know the listener will have, too. Massive thanks for coming on, sharing what you have, and congratulations on your success. I knew that you were luxury wedding photographers. I had no idea there was a super luxury market like there is. So it's just amazing to have my eyes open to what's out there and what's available to photographers in this industry, it's amazing. So massive thanks again, guys, and massive congrats.
Otto Schulze: Andrew, thank you so much for having us.
James Christianson: Really appreciate it.
Andrew Hellmich: This is where I usually jump in and say a big thanks to James and Otto for being amazing guests. But we continued to chat, and I asked him if I could record another little snippet about the photography gear that they're shooting with, because I thought you might be interested in that. So here's that short audio clip. What camera gear do you shoot on? Is it Cannons and Nikons? Are you shooting something, uh, medium formats?
Otto Schulze: Fuji medium format and the liker cues.
Andrew Hellmich: Fuji medium format, liker cues, because I know the list is going to ask that.
Otto Schulze: Yeah, the new the GFX though, there was, we have the 100S II or the..
Otto Schulze: Yeah, very simple, like, one lens each on that camera and a cue, and that's how we shoot.
Andrew Hellmich: Wow, nice.
James Christianson: Yeah, and we have other stuff, right? We have, we should have a Sony, and we do have a 135 but it literally is 50 millimeter and 28 millimeter, almost 95% of what we shoot. Maybe more.
Otto Schulze: Yeah, that tandem is so good.
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The post PBX593: James and Schulze – The power of persistence breaking into the ultra-luxury photography market appeared first on Photography Business Xposed - Photography Podcast - how to build and market your portrait and wedding photography business.
