Summary

In this episode, Andy interviews Jim Ferrell, author of  You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life and Leadership. Andy has long been a big fan of Jim's work with The Arbinger Institute, authoring Leadership and Self-Deception and The Anatomy of Peace. 

In this conversation, Jim unpacks his insights on how leaders can move from a self-focused to a relational mindset. Drawing from his new book, Jim explains why our effectiveness as leaders depends not just on what we do, but on how we view and relate to the people around us. The discussion explores what it means to be relational instead of transactional, how leaders can better navigate conflict, and the subtle ways our self-deceptions hinder growth. Jim also shares practical ideas for building trust, leading with humility, and focusing on outcomes that matter most. This episode is packed with thought-provoking insights that will challenge how you think about leadership, culture, and collaboration.

If you’re looking for insights on how to become a more relational leader and truly impact those you serve, this episode is for you!

Sound Bites

• “Machines don't have to be great at relation, but they'll be great at everything else. And if we're lousy at relation ourselves, we won't have a job.”
• "Those who can relate better, that's the uniquely human competitive advantage we bring to the marketplace."
• "The top people spend most of their time on the relational work, not on the other stuff. So you see it happening already. That's all going to be accelerating."
• “The most important part of the chart of any org chart is actually all the space in between the names and boxes, because that's where everything's happening, right?”
• “We went from the body economy to the mind economy to now the heart economy.”
• “Proximity is not necessarily closeness.”

Chapters

• 00:00 Introduction
• 01:55 Start of Interview
• 02:07 Jim Ferrell's Backstory and Early Influences
• 06:17 About Jim Writing Leadership and Self-Deception
• 08:57 Exploring the Concept of Relation vs. Relationships
• 10:07 The Five Levels of Relation
• 13:19 Managing Relation in Organizations
• 17:29 The Shift to the Heart Economy
• 20:00 Insights from the Book 'You and We'
• 27:00 Proximity vs. Closeness in Remote Work
• 29:08 The Power of Hydrogen and Oxygen
• 29:46 Remote vs. In-Person Work Dynamics
• 32:14 The Importance of Connectivity in Teams
• 33:14 Understanding Relational Space
• 34:35 Personal Stories of Relation
• 37:48 How Can We Discern Where We Are in the Levels? And Our Teams?
• 39:29 The Concept of Compounding in Relations
• 41:07 The Relational Leap
• 45:54 End of Interview
• 46:27 Andy Comments After the Interview
• 49:23 Outtakes

Learn More

You can learn more about Jim and his book at Withiii.com/youandwe.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

• Episode 185 with Mitch Warner about the Arbinger book Leadership and Self-Deception.
• Episode 356 with Eric Barker about why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong.
• Episode 459 with Adrian Kelly about identity and rethinking success.

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Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast!

Talent Triangle: Power Skills

Topics: Leadership, Project Management, Relationships, Trust, Relational Mindset, Conflict, Self-Deception, Self-Awareness, Influence, Humility, Collaboration, Culture, Authenticity

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license