Recovery Elevator

Now the Holidays have been coupled with alcohol for as long as the Earth has been orbiting the Sun. I'm kidding, that isn't correct, but you get the point. And if you're struggling with alcohol or trying to get sober, the holidays can be the ultimate challenge. This episode should help.

In this Holiday Collab Episode, we've got Gill from the Sober Powered Podcast. Casey from the Hello Someday Podcast, and Veronica from the Soberful Podcast.

Today we have Spencer. He's 44 years old from Minneapolis, MN and took his last drink on September 23rd, 2023.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[02:04] Highlights from Paul:

Start your day with a smile. It doesn't matter if the smile is fake or real. The body doesn't know the difference and the nervous system always responds positively with a smile.

Smiling increases mood-enhancing hormones. Smiling releases endorphins, natural painkillers, and serotonin, while decreasing stress-enhancing hormones, including cortisol, and adrenaline. It also reduces overall blood pressure.

Another reason to smile is that research shows that smiles are contagious. Most people will find a way to reciprocate in a friendly manner. Smiling is a way to be of service because it makes other people's days better.

Spiritual teacher Thich Nhat Hanh has said "Sometimes your joy is the source of your smile, but sometimes your smile can be the source of your joy."

Start your day with a 30 -second smile. And not for just one day or two,

but rock that smile every morning for the rest of this year and hopefully beyond. And don't forget to keep that smile going throughout the day.

Paul shares some dad jokes to help get us started.

[08:04] Paul introduces Spencer:

Spencer grew up in Minneapolis area. He is married with two kids. He enjoys playing blues and rock on his guitar and spending time on the river with his family. Spencer has been an electrician for 23 years.

Spencer says that alcohol was a big part of his family's life while he was growing up. Both of his parents drank, and every event was centered around alcohol. Spencer didn't try alcohol until he was around 15. He had a friend who's parent worked nights, so their house became a party house and drinking happened frequently.

Spencer got married young and they both drank heavily. They had a daughter together and eventually they ended up getting a divorce. At the time Spencer blamed a lot of the issues on his ex. Once she moved out Spencer had some friends move in and says the drinking became daily and he was losing jobs. He eventually started having financial issues and lost his house.

It was shortly after he started dating a woman that didn't drink like him that he realized that drinking might be a problem for him. He didn't really make any changes until the birth of his son when he began to try moderating and added rules around his drinking.

Things were going well for Spencer and then he got a call from his son's mother that she was a heroin addict. He ended up having to get custody of him and knew he had to stop drinking for his son. He was able to quit for a while but gradually let drinking slip back in.

Spencer was able to quit for a few years and started recognizing how big of an issue alcohol had been for him. He knew he wanted to quit but wasn't sure how he was going to be able to do it.

New activities have replaced drinking for Spencer. He is working on his relationships with his kids and has been talking to them about alcohol and the issues within the family. Spencer is open about his sobriety with others. He listens to a lot of podcasts about addiction and enjoys online AA meetings and has plans to do the steps. Spencer knows how important connection will be going forward.

Spencer's parting piece of guidance: If you think you have a problem, find someone that's sober to talk about it, listen to podcasts, get connected.

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Remember Rule 22, keep those smiles going. Lighten up.

I love you guys.

Today we have Mike. He is 44 from Huntsville, AL and took his last drink on April 10th, 2023.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[02:42] Highlights from Paul:

Paul shares how releasing his first album is a huge win for him and that the listeners are a big part of making it happen.

Something commonly heard when people quit drinking is "what is going to fill the void?".

We have to rediscover likes and interests. Part of the journey is trying out new hobbies. Sometimes it takes a while to find out what we like to do though, so be patient with your healing.

If you want to hear the outro song and the full album under the name of Pablo Church, you can check it out on Spotify, or search your preferred music streaming service.

What dreams, goals, aspirations, did you have that alcohol stifled like a wet soggy blanket. What did alcohol bump down on your list of personal goals? What do you want in life now that alcohol is no longer in the front seat? Take a moment to ponder these questions, maybe hit pause in this episode, put pen to paper and get clear on what you want. Paul and the RE community are here to help you make it happen.

[07:18] Kris introduces Mike:

Mike lives in Huntsville, AL and works in construction. He is married and they have five kids. He enjoys attending his kids' sporting events and being outside and active.

Mike grew up in a conservative home. His father had a history of rebellion and his mother lost both parents to alcoholism when she was young, so they chose to keep alcohol out of the home.

Mike first tried alcohol on New Year's Eve when he was in 8th grade while at a friend's house. He started to associate alcohol with having a good time but didn't drink much during high school even though his friends did. Mike was a people pleaser both at home and with his friends. He feels this tendency drove him to start drinking and smoking pot to fit in with everyone.

Mike went to one semester of college and decided it wasn't for him. After some consequences from his drinking, he ended up moving back home and working construction. He was still drinking and smoking but trying to make better choices.

When Mike met his wife, they decided to make some changes. They quit drinking and smoking and started becoming more active in the church community. When the job market started changing in Michigan, they moved to Alabama where Mike was offered a new job.

After a while, Mike decided to quit his job and start his own construction business. That was going well but Mike found that managing the business instead of doing the labor was very different and more stressful. As time when on his drinking gradually increased and since everyone else was drinking, he could justify it. Over time he was drinking before, during and after work. His wife discovered the stash in his office and that's when Mike said he would quit. For a few months, he found himself hiding his drinking and trying to drink less, which didn't work.

Mike eventually sought outpatient treatment and tried that for a while before his counselor told him he had to do more. Mike was resistant to trying AA but once he did he was able to start making some changes and getting help to stay sober.

Mike's plan in sobriety moving forward: to make the most of the time he has left.

Mike's parting piece of guidance: today is just a day and time takes time.

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Today we have Ryan. He's 33 years old from Orange County, NY and took his last drink on September 24th, 2023.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

Happy Thanksgiving to all the listeners in the USA! Be sure to take some time this week and let the universe know what you are thankful for and remember a drink won't make your holiday any better.

[02:42] Highlights from Paul:

It's the last Q&A episode and today's question is from Darren in Tampa Bay who asks, "What if I can't quit drinking?"

Paul shares that he could have asked this same question not that long ago and his message to Darren and others that maybe feeling this way is to keep moving forward, don't quit quitting, keep using the mind to build, to visualize your alcohol-free life. Accept it all, embrace the journey, and you will come out the other side.

Paul rephrases the question to ask, "what if I can't quit drinking today?" and shares some thoughts and strategies to implement which include:

- It isn't quitting for a lifetime, it's only for today and it gets easier.

- Don't beat yourself up. People with drinking problems drink but on the flip side people with drinking problems quit every day.

- Stick to the plan of seeking sobriety. "What you seek is seeking you".

- For many, it is a journey, and it takes time for things to get into sync. You don't need to rush the process.

Thank you, listeners, for all the questions!

[10:44] Paul introduces Ryan:

Ryan is on day 5 at the time of this recording. He is 33 years old and is engaged and has two stepchildren. He is a drummer and loves playing metal music and enjoys watching horror movies.

Ryan's relationship with alcohol didn't begin until he was in his 20's. His drinking was mostly a few beers sporadically, but he quickly graduated to straight liquor. He started drinking regularly when he was about 23 to cope with stress and depression using alcohol as an escape. It was putting a strain on his relationship at the time, and she

Ryan feels he was functional and kept his problem hidden well. There were no rock bottoms for him yet, he was just drowning his feelings and didn't feel a reason to stop. The industry he worked in found he and his coworkers drinking together after work frequently.

Some severe pain in Ryan's hips and legs found him seeking medical attention. He went to a doctor who he has known for years, and they discovered that Ryan had AVN. This is a condition that doesn't happen to people in their 20's so Ryan shared his drinking habits with the doctor who connected the dots quickly.

Ryan was able to quit drinking for two years with the help of Campral while he was in recovery from hip replacement surgery. He reflects this was a very positive time in his life. Even after he relapsed, there have been times of abstinence with the assistance of naltrexone but feels he wasn't working on the underlying issues that caused him to want to drink.

Ryan has been trying to figure out his "why". His depression plays a role in it, he says, but it feels complex. He knows that all alcohol is causing several health issues, but he is working on harm reduction and learning more about what alcohol does to us. Ryan has the support of his fiancé, his friends and family and utilizes his music to help him cope now.

Ryan's parting piece of guidance: if you think drinking is a problem for you, quitting can be done, it's not easy but it is simple. Incorporate medications, therapy and a support network.

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Go big, because eventually we all go home.

I love you guys.

Today we have Nathan. He's 42 years old and from Andover, MN and took his last drink on April 19th, 2023.

[02:01] Highlights from Paul:

Today's question is from Darren A. who asks, "Can you discuss resentment and letting go of resentment?"

Life is a school where the people, places, and things are there to help us grow and become deeper human beings. The people we encounter in life are there to help us grow.

The theory is that none of this is happening to you. Remember, that is how a victim speaks. Flip that to believe that everything that has ever happened to you in your life is happening for you, for your own personal growth and development, to make you a more resilient human being.

Resentments are the teachers. Yes, they suck, they emotionally and physically hurt, but they are the opportunities for healthy and normal growth.

Another strategy is to stop labeling things as good or bad. When a person, place or thing pisses you off, try to recognize the mind immediately slapping a label on it, try to remain open. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes. That person who may have recently dogged you may have actually shielded you from a tragedy down the road.

"You can be right, or you can have peace." Paul shares this mantra with us frequently on the podcast. He tries to repeat this mantra when he encounters a difficult life challenge.

We want to hear from the listener. How do you overcome resentments? Let us know in our Monday Instagram post on the Recovery Elevator Instagram page.

[08:56] Kris introduces Nathan:

Nathan is 42 and lives in Andover, MN. He works in financial operations but was recently laid off. He is in the process of going through a divorce and has two cats. He enjoys woodworking and building things with hand tools, he also enjoys golf, reading and occasionally writing.

Nathan calls himself a late bloomer and hated beer. It was normal to have it around when he was growing up, but his dad drank NA beer. He was a casual drinker through his twenties and thirties.

In late 2019 Nathan's wife was in a car accident related to some health issues. It was a very stressful time for them as his wife was unable to drive and undergoing a lot of testing and Nathan was dealing with a very stressful work project as well.

Some health issues drove Nathan to use alcohol to ease his symptoms. His career was stressful, and he and his wife were having communication issues. Nathan didn't drink every day, but some days were binge sessions. He discovered the amount he could have without too many consequences the next day.

After a weekend of binge drinking, Nathan had an experience that felt like he was having a heart attack, and he went to the ER where he realized alcohol was causing the problems. Soon after he was able to admit to his wife that he needed to stop. He went back to the ER and told them that he needed help. After detox, Nathan enrolled in an IOP and connected with a great counselor.

It took a few months for Nathan to start feeling physically better and is currently confronting some difficult life situations. He plays the tape forward and continues to work on his recovery despite the strong emotions he is dealing with.

Nathan's favorite resources in recovery: his IOP counselor, the RE podcast and Café RE.

Nathan's parting piece of guidance: make a plan (to avoid relapse), make it really detailed and change it as you need to.

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Today we have Chris. He is 40 years old and lives in Austin, TX. He took his last drink on February 16th, 2007.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[02:16] Highlights from Paul:

Today is episode 9 out of 10 in the Q&A series.

Today's question comes from Krista B, in our Café RE group. She says:

"How Paul is feeling about ayahuasca and other plant medicines. Are you still as passionate about its benefits today as a few years ago? Has the treatment worked in a sustained way, in your opinion?"

Paul shared his initial experience with ayahuasca in episode 170. He believes that plant medicines have a place in the world of addiction and mental health. Do not buy it on the internet and try it solo; set and setting is everything. There is so much preparation that needs to go into an ayahuasca ceremony and under the right circumstances, it will answer many questions. A big one being why you drink. Paul shares how ayahuasca still impacts his everyday life.

While Paul found plant medicine helpful on his journey, he recognizes it's not for everyone, nor does he think everyone should try plant medicine. If you are interested, please do your own research before trying it.

[11:59] Paul introduces Chris:

Chris lives in Austin Texas; he is married with two children aged 8 and 9. He is an entrepreneur and enjoys being creative through many avenues.

Chris always felt like an outsider that didn't belong while he was growing up. His parents divorced when he was young, and he blamed himself and ended up distancing himself from people. He craved connections and ended up starting drinking with a group of friends. Chris felt like alcohol was the solution to his feelings of not belonging. His drinking increased and over time he lost all those connections that he used alcohol to find and was drinking alone. At age 23 he went to treatment where they helped him recognize that he had some mental health issues, the main ones being social anxiety and depression.

Some alumni from the group accepted Chris, helped him go to meetings and then they would all socialize afterwards. He finally felt he was making connections that he had craved all his life.

Seeing people that were staying sober and succeeding was a big boost to Chris' confidence, and he felt like it was possible for him to do the same. His life in sobriety was becoming so great that he never had a desire to go back to drinking.

Chris started going to school to become a counselor and immediately started working in the recovery field. He knew it was important to maintain and strengthen his recovery to do the job successfully.

Chris started Sans Bar in 2018 as a pop-up bar when there were very few options in the alcohol-free arena. The pop-ups grew, and more and more people were interested in what Chris was doing, mostly through word of mouth. He feels it came along at the right time as the sober curious movement was beginning. Chris says doing this gave him the same feelings that his first sip of booze did – he was forming connections. He feels Sans Bar is for everyone, not just people in recovery.

Chris's favorite resources in recovery: The Luckiest Club, 12 step programs, podcasts.

Chris's parting piece of guidance: you can't fail. The point of sobriety is not abstinence, it's growth.

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Go big, because eventually we all go home.

I love you guys.

Today we have Kristan. She is 60 years old and lives in Delaware. She took her last drink on June 3rd, 2019.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[01:34] Highlights from Kris:

Today we are continuing the Q & A series and it's a two for one.

First question, Dale wants to know "How can I do more in my recovery community?"

Some traditional responses to this question might AA, or any other group with the word recovery in it. These are great, but Kris shares that we can expand our view to other groups. Church groups, book club, a running club, or a workout group.

Sharing can be a great way to get involved within a recovery community. Hearing others share and be vulnerable encourages us to share and be vulnerable too. By being open, you are being of service in your recovery. You never know who you may be helping with your share.

Think of the things that you bring to the table, and what you'd like to see your community offer. It could be as simple as organizing an outing to have a meal with other local members or hosting a chat in your online community.

Listen to your heart. If you feel that tug to do something, be obedient to that. We have no idea how it could impact our lives, or the lives of other people.

[09:25]: Kris introduces Kristan:

Kristan is married and has adult kids, she enjoys traveling, participating in triathlons, and hanging out with her sober friends doing fun activities.

Kristan grew up in Louisiana and started drinking when she was 12 and partied throughout high school. She graduated from college and moved to Australia for a few years. She moved to DC when she came back and worked as a reporter while enjoying the nightlife. Kristan says that in her profession, drinking was very common, and she surrounded herself with people that drank a lot.

Later when she bought a house in Delaware, her and her husband split time between home and DC which left Kristan with a lot of time alone. She started putting rules around her drinking early on which found her frustrated. Her husband doesn't drink which made her feel like she was being monitored. Kristan never drank during the day but found herself drinking daily at 5pm. Her problem wasn't obvious to her because she was successful and hadn't lost anything (yet).

Kristan's drinking came to a head after a long night of drinking with friends where she doesn't remember the last few hours. She woke up to a text from her daughter stating that she was concerned about her drinking. Kristan decided it was time to quit. A phone call to family member in recovery helped her take the first steps. A few days later she told husband she quit drinking. She started regularly attending AA and got a sponsor, began reading books about recovery and enjoyed listening to podcasts.

Kristan was eager to celebrate all of life's events sober. She says she has a great group of friends that are still fun in sobriety. After quitting, Kristan realizes how much mind space drinking took up. She says the first year was difficult, but she got stronger as she went. Kristan loves being sober. Her relationships with her daughter and husband are the best they have ever been.

Kristan's future plan in sobriety: working on her emotional sobriety.

Kristan's parting piece of guidance: give it a year, surround yourself with sober people.

[54:15] Kris answers Bobbie the Awesome's question regarding NA beverages and shares some personal experiences.

Choosing whether to drink them or not is a very personal decision. It's up to you to decide what's right for you, and it's a good idea to err on the side of caution if you are nervous about it.

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We're the only ones that can do this, but we don't have to do it alone.

I love you guys.

Today we have Andy. He is 46 from Washington, DC and took his last drink on August 12th, 2023.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[02:17] Highlights from Paul:

Today's question is from Liz in the Café RE OG group: "How Would You Describe a "Spiritual Experience" in Recovery? Was it a Bill W. "White Light" or a long series of little twinkles? Somewhere in between? Something else altogether?"

We all know there is no right or wrong way to quit drinking, but Paul believes the spirituality component is important, because it connects or reconnects you to the universe or a god of your understanding.

For many, a large twinkle of spirituality took place took place near the date of their last drink. Some call this a window of clarity. I've heard it been described as "I just knew it was going to be different this time." Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung called them synchronicities or the breadcrumbs of life.

Everyone's version of spiritual awakening will be different. We just need to be open to the twinkles that can happen all around us.

[11:53]: Paul introduces Andy:

Andy took his last drink less than a week before the time of this recording. Andy has moved around a bit while being in the military but currently lives in DC. He is an officer in the Air Force and has been serving for 26 years. He is married and has four kids. He enjoys ultra marathons, gardening, and traveling with his family.

Andy grew up around a lot of drinking in the small town he lived in. There was always beer in the house, and he feels it was ingrained in his life. He had his first drink in 8th grade. It was on a grueling camping trip when one of the adults handed him a bottle of booze and told him it would take the edge off. He really enjoyed the feelings he got from it.

Andy did well in school both academically and athletically, but the drinking continued. After graduating college, he enlisted in the military. He would stay sober during brief deployments but would start drinking again as soon as he came home. He struggled with missing his military family more than his wife and kids at home.

Andy had an opportunity to work at the Embassy in Croatia, so they moved. After a few years Andy and his wife split up and his drinking was out of control. He ended up moving back to the US as a single dad. He was not being as productive at work due to his drinking and often used his being a single dad as an excuse.

Andy was able to get sober few times after asking for help. First from a very close friend after a major bout of anxiety and then at another time post relapse from a doctor when he originally went to see them for a sore throat. He says that during these experiences, he felt relief. He started going to AA and stopped fighting that he was unable to casually drink. His wife would attend meetings with him for support. Andy got a very patient sponsor who helped him through the steps. Life started improving a lot for him over this time.

After a relapse last Christmas, Andy fell right back into the cycle and was even hiding alcohol again. He considers the five years he had as part of his recovery and plans to get back into AA when he feels ready. He misses how he felt and wants it back. Andy plans to get back to good habits to help him stay sober, reading books, listening to podcasts, and sharing with his wife.

Andy's favorite resources in recovery: RE podcast, reading, finding someone you can trust to talk to daily.

Andy's parting piece of guidance: hold onto this moment and don't look too far ahead or too far in the past.

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We're the only ones that can do this, but we don't have to do it alone.

I love you guys.

Today we have Emilee. She is 33 from Double Springs, AL and has been alcohol free since February 26th, 2023.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[02:55] Highlights from Paul:

Today's question is from Dale: How do I stop comparing myself to others in Recovery?

This is a BIG PICTURE question. An issue that probably didn't arise when you quit drinking. I'm guessing this is something you have been doing for quite some time.

Part of this is healthy. You'll want to model your sobriety after someone who seems to have done the work, or who has what you want. You'll want to compare parts of your journey with theirs… But the key is not to have it consume you.

Paul shares his thoughts on this topic and reminds us that comparison is all part of the human condition and to know that when one person blooms, we all receive the benefit.

[10:30]: Kris introduces Emilee:

Emilee is 33 from Double Springs, AL. She is married and they have one daughter together. For work, she is a high school algebra teacher and for fun she enjoys doing outdoor activities including hunting and fishing and she also enjoys playing the piano, working out and cooking.

While growing up, Emilee didn't have much exposure to alcohol. She says she was always shy growing up and it wasn't until she was 19 that a boyfriend introduced her to a group of friends that drank a lot. In that environment, she discovered a different version of herself that was much more outgoing. This went on for a few months, but her drinking decreased for about a year before she went to college.

Emilee managed to keep with her studies but when she drank it was always to excess. She was home for the summer when her father suddenly passed away. She had to go back to school very soon after it happened and while she didn't drink to cope with it, she had a lot of anxiety and was just going through the motions.

After graduating from college, Emilee got married and then got her first teaching job all in a short period of time. While the first year of her new career was very stressful, Emilee started a routine of getting alcohol on the way home from work and drinking throughout the evening. Her husband was also drinking and after a while they both started putting parameters on it. They eventually tried to quit, but that didn't last, and Emilee started finding herself hiding her drinking and preferring drinking alone.

While pregnant, Emilee was able to stop drinking. She remained sober for a few months after having her daughter, but gradually started going back to her old habits. Emilee says she never really dealt with her father's death so her emotions would come up a lot when she would get drunk.

Emilee started feeling the pull to quit drinking. She got a bunch of books and was able to stop for a few days at a time. Listening to the RE podcast would often keep her from stopping at the store for alcohol. Learning the science of what alcohol does to our bodies also helped her quit. Since quitting drinking Emilee feels that her relationships have improved.

Emilee's favorite resources in recovery: RE podcast and Café RE.

Emilee's parting piece of guidance: don't quit quitting.

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We're the only ones that can do this, but we don't have to do it alone.

I love you guys.

Today we have Grant. He is 54 from Sacramento, CA and took his last drink on August 10th, 2020.

Today's Sponsor: Café RE Use the promo code CONNECT for one free month in the alcohol-free community Café RE.

[02:16] Highlights from Paul:

We are five weeks into our Q & A series. This week's question comes from Sarah C. "What can you say to someone, so they don't drink?" Or how to help someone not drink.

Paul gives us some tried and true methods that work and strategies that the Recovery Elevator team believe in. Here are a few suggestions that Paul shares with us:

Tough love does not work, so a tone or stance of unconditional love needs to be present when confronting a friend who is about to drink.

Quick note about boundaries. Talking with people that are drunk can be triggering, and little can be done. Ask them to call you in the morning or when they are sober.

Being there with your presence, whether it is in person, via the phone or FaceTime, or Zoom, is the best thing you can do to help them. Holding space provides a safe container for the person to feel the feels, sit front and center with a craving and not feel judged or criticized.

You can also ask them about their "why". Having them be clear on their "why" again is never a bad idea. You can also remind them that alcohol has been ruined. Drinking while knowing that alcohol no longer has a place in your life isn't fun.

[10:48]: Paul introduces Grant:

Grant is 54 and lives in Sacramento, CA. He is married and they have two young adult kids. He enjoys hiking and the area he lives in has a lot of nice places he explores. Grant works in research and public policy work in California and now focuses on addiction and recovery.

Grant says his first experience with alcohol was when he was 12. A friend had procured a bottle of brandy and they both ended up drinking to the point of going to the hospital. He drank through junior high and high school with a group of friends on weekends. The drinking continued in college, and he started trying other substances as well. Grant says there weren't many consequences.

When Grant was in his 30's after they had children, he found that alcohol helped him take the stress off. He quickly switched from beer to vodka that was easier to hide. He was succeeding at work which stressed him out more than he realized. He says it took some time but eventually he was drinking in the morning just to feel normal.

In 2019 someone from HR confronted Grant about smelling of alcohol and he told them that he was an alcoholic. He couldn't admit it to his wife initially but started looking for outpatient treatment. He was able to quit for a time but relapsed after a painful experience with work which found him resigning and taking a new job with a pay cut. At this point Grant had joined Café RE and left home for a little while to live in a sober living house. He learned a lot while he was there and realized that he was going to have to do things differently.

After sober living, Grant started a home breathalyzer program to help him stay motivated. A meetup with fellow Café RE members gave Grant another turning point and realized that he was on the right path.

In recovery, Grant started volunteering with a non-profit in the addiction and recovery field. He also started listening to another recovery podcast where he shared information about addiction and recovery. He left to work for the non-profit called Shatterproof which helps people find treatment and recovery with their Treatment Atlas. Grant also has his own website about addiction and recovery – Sober Linings Playbook.

[53:19] Paul closes the episode with a poem from Peter, a Café RE member.

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It all starts from the inside out.

I love you guys.