Kurt Elster is a recovering designer.

He thought he’d quit his job and start his own ecommerce platform…

until he realized the likelihood of making that happen.

Instead, he started building custom websites and charging $700.

He thought it was downright criminal when he was able to finally raise his fees to $2500.

With clients like Hilton Hotels and Verizon…

the projects and money became even greater.

Like Biggie Smalls predicted though, so did the problems.

So he distanced himself from wishy-washy agency work.

Instead, he helped a friend with a site for his recumbent bike business.

He niched down to becoming A Shopify expert and the lessons he learned along the way have all come to bear.

Freelancers should be able to apply the many gems Kurt shared today.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* The one book that finally made it all click and started bringing in leads in droves.

* Positioning secrets of a “dog lawyer”. How do you express what it is you do?

* The simple and easy math to a 6-figure consulting business.

* The “onion skin” method of deep-diving to find your customers.

* If Kurt had a time machine, these are the two things he’d go back and tell his younger self.

Mentioned:

* Kurt’s Website

* Email Templates For Freelancers (20% McMethod discount)

* SEan D’Souza’s ‘The Brain Audit’

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey everybody we’re back with another edition of the podcast and I’m David Allan and we have a very special guest today which I think will be fun. Now I want to say something about this just before we start because Kurt Elster is on the show today and this guy if you want to get your sh together to come on a podcast I’m going to link this in the show. Most you go and take a look at his page he lays out all the information – possible questions, background information, head shots – almost everything I would say everything I thought in almost everything everything you need as someone who’s about to interview another person would require so that they don’t have to spend hours and hours compiling their own information and wandering through the interweb to find it. And I just want to say Kurt thanks a lot for doing that.

Kurt Elster: Yeah it certainly was a selfish act because it makes it so easy for you to say yes to having me on your show.

David Allan: And that’s what we want. You know you will make everyone’s job easier. And as a copywriter who does research you know on a regular basis it can be laborious. And this was so much easier you know if I had clients that had everything laid out as neatly as that specifically as you did my job would be so much easier.

Kurt Elster: Most days I know it’s easier when you’re talking about yourself. Let me tell you about me.

David Allan: Exactly when you get to say I look like you are really are two instead of my perspective.

So let’s start. You are a conversion optimization expert.

Yeah I’m a shopping expert exclusively worked on Shopify. But you know these lessons apply to all of e-commerce and usability so don’t just tune out if you’re not on trial.

Dan Fagella was a prior guest on the McMethod (Episode #62).

He’s back a couple years later giving us all an update on what he has transitioned into.

Dan had a vision and a calling that he wanted to fund, so he structured the business he was in for a smooth exit.

He found out a lot about Direct-Response businesses in the process and that is what he wants to share.

So, if you’re a serial entrepreneur with big plans…

or have a business now you may not to want to be a slave to forever…

Listen to Dan’s run-down of what strategic buyers desire when they buy a business owner out.

Then put into action his advice so one day…

you can grab a big fat cheque and take off on your next adventure.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* 3 reasons you may not be able to sell your direct-response business and what to do about them.

* How to build a “sacrificial lamb” business so you can end clean, hand them the keys and jet off on your next escapade.

* Several key ways Dan “took the pulse” of his business as it grew so he could speak with authority to buyers.

* Dan worked part-time for the last few months leading up to his latest sale. Was he preoccupied or was it strategic?

* 2 qualities to look for in a broker that will make selling your company easy-peasy.

Mentioned:

* Sports Illustrated Subscription Model

* Machine Learning Marketing

* Dan Fagella on Twitter

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody it’s another edition of The podcast. I’m David Allan and we have a guy who was on the show recently you can go back and listen to this was number sixty two. His name is Dan Fagella. I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly and that is a very interesting individual when I went back in the past podcast went try to learn about that and a little bit. He’s into some really diverse things, really interesting things. You’ll go back and listen to the martial arts business he built up but eventually sold he used email marketing a very clever way. And today we’re going to talk about primarily two things we’re going to talk about how you build up a company so that it’s saleable. Build it up with direct response. We’re going to get into some AI and sort of you know how tech in our world is sort of you know becoming overwhelmed with tech and where’s where’s that going and where marketing and tech meet and dance and you know a lot about that so we’re going to just jump right in. Dan how are you doing.

Dan Fagella: Great. Glad to be here man.

David Allan: Yeah it’s exciting because we don’t get to delve into some of these weirder topics and sort of you know on a daily basis so I was going to say I can mention artificial intelligence and learning is not exactly the regular par for the course but there is a lot of overlap with marketing so that will be fun.

Dan Fagella: Awesome.

David Allan: Well maybe start off with like where we left off because I kind of feel like it’s like a Star Wars sequel or something kind of is I guess.

Dan Fagella: Was it 2014 when John had me. I think so. OK. So then that was I think by that point maybe we were doing like 40 or 60 gr...

Ian once lived in an RV and made money with what he calls “sports investing”.

He’s written dating books and sold satellite TV at big box stores.

He majored in Netflix and procrastination.

When he ran some Bing ads to make his first dollar online he did the pony dance around the room and hasn’t looked back.

Focusing on a single skill he could become great at he leveraged his time…

and went from 5 dollar emails to $1500 dollar emails.

After immersing himself in email copy for big clients and starting his own water company…

Ian’s paying it forward.

Listen to the journey of a hilarious marketing renegade as he details his journey.

The tools, opportunities, habits and outcomes of a real success story.

What’s are you waiting for?

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* Can you trust internet marketing email advice? The discoveries Ian made writing emails in the “real world”.

* The only success barometer Ian used when learning to write copy.

* What resources did he use to educate himself? Some thoughts on popular email writing courses – and why he created his own.

* The three core parts of his new water business “Fixt.”

* Hilarious anecdotes, green Jaguars, and a real lesson on split-testing – all in this episode.

Mentioned:

* Ian Stanley on Facebook

* Ian’s FIXT Water Company

*

" rel="noopener noreferrer">Ian’s Standup Conversions

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody We’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan. We got a very interesting guest. You have sorta heard from before. His name is Ian Stanley. He’s got to become a little bit famous for his email copywriting as his own water company now we’re sort of going to get the lowdown on all of that here in the next little while so Ian welcome to the show.

Ian Stanley: Thank you sir.

David Allan:It’s good to have you on here. Man I don’t know a ton about you I know little bits and pieces like we talked about off the air. So maybe first of all anybody…

Ian Stanley: nobody knows the real story. It’s all shrouded in mystery and now it is in characters.

David Allan: I’m guessing he’s like he’s Batman.

Ian Stanley: I mean I can say I’m not that. I will say that you’ll never see Batman and me in the same room.

David Allan: So maybe take us back to your Bruce Wayne days before he became Batman…

Ian Stanley: Maybe this is going to let the cat out of the bag he’s bad at it. Well a lot of it gave a good idea. I mean I genuinely thought I was going to be Batman. And I know that sounds like a joke it’s probably the most serious thing I can say.

I mean I had all of my plans. I had like intricate setups for how I would do it. I had researched all the ways to actually make it happen. And I was really convinced I would become Batman.

So that was your plan to become like mega-wealthy and then like fight crime.

Yeah well it wasn’t about. It was about skill acquisition and wealth at the same time. So what would make me the most useful vision of Batman.

So there were different avenues that I thought about going and that’s and it had it had a sort of Batman on a budget as well.

Paul stuck his nose into SEO after seeing his employer’s proposals.

He was a systems administrator, but they challenged him to do it anyway.

Then someone planted the seed that changed everything…

“Why are you doing this for them?”

When his employer wouldn’t let him telecommute one day a week he decided…

“I can’t work in this oppression anymore!”

So he started freelancing.

His kids were already home-schooled and though he had not yet realized it…

His business was location-independent.

Three years later, Paul and his family made the transition to the digital nomad lifestyle…

and haven’t looked back.

Listen to someone who has been where you might be this very day – and see the steps he took toward freedom.

You can use these same ideas as a freelance copywriter.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* How Paul realized that he was already location-free. (You might already be good to go!).

* How his income TRIPLED when he switched to freelancing.

* The resource Paul accessed to end his “shameless whore” phase.

* Two simple steps he used to double one client’s organic traffic in six months .

* The “45-45-10” ratio of SEO that works. Stick with tried and true strategies most “experts” never talk about.

Mentioned:

* Nomad Together

* Follow the Kortman’s On the Road

* Brian Dean’s Backlinko

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey everybody we’re back for another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan. Exciting guest of course for you today. His name is Paul Kortman. He is a nomad him and his family and he’s into marketing a digital marketing agency as CEO know all that kind of good stuff. We’re going to talk to him today. Paul Kortman How are you.

Paul Kortman:I am doing fantastic. Thanks so much David for having me on.

David Allan: Now as a fellow digital nomad The first question I should probably ask you is where are you.

Paul Kortman: Well we are stuck in a parking lot with a bunch of diesel semis around so I apologize because just as you hit record the semi next to me I Engine engine Oh I know that. But in the world we’re in Mexico we’re in a town called Zenn crystal ball.

They lost causes OK it’s in the southern part of Mexico almost to the border of Guatemala. And it’s a highly indigenous city. So you have your Mexican your Spanish speakers and then you have your native Mexicans so Preece Spanish era population who. Yeah they were different clothes. They talk a different language. And so it’s a very unique situation. We’ve traveled around Mexico for the last year and a half and this is the first time we’ve been you know in a very indigenous situation.

So it’s sounds very exciting actually. And we’re going to get to some of that sort of for our take over Tuesday audience later in the show but let’s start with how you got yourself wrapped up in all of this to start from like what you were doing prior to your digital excursion or nomadic lifestyle and sort of bring us all the way up to speed. So we know you know for people who don’t know much about you and sort of get a feel for who you are and where you’re not cool.

Mike laid in his bed with a horrible stomach flu surfing the ‘net.

His passion for hoops and NBA dreams found him pouring over basketball products.

Several years later he sent in a glowing testimonial.

At 16 years old he never thought that would set him on a career path.

The owner of that product company like Mike’s passion and needed people to champion his brand.

text

Mike’s success in customer service led to the owner writing him a game-changing email…

“Want to make more money?”

Mike wrote content and then sales and upsell pages and then whole funnels as time went by.

The owner turning him onto some classic texts in direct-response.

Along with on-the-job trial and error, Mike learned the game.

Now after 6 years he’s left that first fruitful gig and is on to other pastures.

If you’re new (or even an old hand at this stuff) then there’s a lot from Mike’s journey you can take and apply to your own.

His skill-set are what modern DR companies look for.

Start now!

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* One mistake copywriters make that leaves them deadly short on what clients look for.

* The advice an A-list copywriter gave Mike that sums up why most copy doesn’t resonate.

* How to avoid the horrible “tiptoe” mistake most businesses make with their weak copy.

* Stick to these and you can’t go wrong when building up your complimentary copy skills.

* The “can’t lose” method most businesses leave completely out. (This is where all the money is!).

Mentioned:

* Mike’s website

*

" rel="noopener noreferrer">Dan Kennedy’s Books

* Joe Sugarman’s Adweek Copywriting Handbook

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody we’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan and we got a really interesting guest here today that was recommended to me by another guest Justin Goff we had on the show – by the time this is live you’ll have heard Justin’s episode. His name is Mike Abramov and I hope I pronounced that correctly and he is a digital marketer copywriter – in direct response. We’re going to find out everything about him in the next little while here as he starts by detailing his sort of superhero origin story. Mike welcome to the show.

Mike Ambramov: I appreciate you having me on.

David Allan: It’s awesome to have you on. And you were recommended Like I said by Justin and Justin’s a good guy. So he knows what’s what. So maybe start because I know very little about you other than what Justin told me on and off the air. So maybe give me sort of the rundown of where you were who you were and how you ascended to where you’re at now.

Yes I mean growing up I was obsessed with basketball. I thought I going to the NBA as every tall athlete thinks they are. I myself included actually. So I actually came across a sales page surf the web one night looking at basketball training and drills and tips and that kind of stuff like that and I ended up buying it. I sent over a testimonial a couple of years later to the actions of the owner and he was really impressed. Testimonials like you know what I need great dedicated guys like...

BIG Jason Henderson (He’s a 7 footer) was a professional

basketball player down-under.

Sensing the limits of that career he hit the internet.

From his early days at what would become About.com and learning about email “conversation” …

To being “Halbertized” into the fold by Bond Halbert…

Since ’96 he’s been writing and testing profit-pulling email copy.

His involvement with MECLABS has been invaluable and…

He’s out to punch some holes into email dogma (especially from the IM niche).

Recently, his close friend (and renown copywriter) Scott “Mongo” Haines passed away.

Scott had created a famous copy course that many people had urged him to update for the last five years.

Gary Halbert himself had said…

“If you could only afford to purchase and study one product, it would NOT be anything I, personally, had produced… I would recommend, above everything else, a course called ‘Shortcut Copywriting Secrets’ which was created by my friend, Scott ‘Mongo’ Haines.”

So Big Jason has picked up the torch and will be securing Scott’s legacy by keeping his work alive.

You’re going to love this week’s episode.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* The sordid truth about daily emails. Past the rhetoric and propoganda, Jason gives everyone the low-down on best practices.

* How testing a different approach boosted EVERYTHING in the funnel! (Starting with a 27% boost from the Facebook ads)

* What Scott’s longest running client had to say about 3 of Scott’s amazing sales letters.

* How Scott handled the knock-down, drag-out, jump-off-a-cliff battles with several “clients who suck”. (The outcomes may surprise you).

* Where Jason got the hook-up when getting his career in copy started. This secret rears it’s ugly head again and again – but bears repeating!

Mentioned:

* Scott’s Shortcut Copywriting Secrets course

* Big Jason’s Email Response Warrior course

* Shortcut Copywriting Facebook group

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey everybody. Welcome to another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan and we’ve got another great guest. I’ve really been looking forward to speaking with today. He is a lord of e-mail.

He has over 20 years of experience e-mail marketing and he sent over 1 billion e-mails much of which has been tested. Jason Henderson Welcome to the show.

Big Jason: Hey David thanks for having me.

David Allan: So tell us about that a little bit. You’ve been at this since 1996 in regards to e-mail. How did you get into marketing maybe give us that superhero origin story lead us down the garden path of why you’re in marketing.

Big Jason: Sure. So I was playing professional basketball Down Under in Australia and I just had this six sense that it was going to last forever so I don’t really you know been online and looking at stuff never really did anything and there was a local college there which is high school in Australia and they had a you know computer lab and they said hey you know anytime there’s a free seat feel free. So I started jumping on and the first big thing I did was I was the about dot.

He started selling websites to settle a $1000 gambling debt.

Then he became a “just-skating-by” freelance copywriter.

The real turning point was what he termed “3 Days Of Hell”.

His freelance consulting client fired him – erasing 90% of his income…

He girlfriend of 3 years dumped him…

And finally – the coup de gras – Lebron James announced he was leaving Cleveland behind for Miami.

So he picked himself up and started to whittle away by starting an online business.

In three months taking his ads from break-even to $100/day – then $500/day and beyond…

He’d made himself a cool $100,000.

He parlayed that money and experience into his next venture.

Supplements.

A few days before this recording, he sold off his interest in what had become a $20+ Million company.

So whether it was being a freelance copywriter, or in a position to hire some of the best…

He has some immediate advice for you and other business owners.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* The single biggest difference maker in his copy career. (This crucial advice is NOT for the faint of wallet)

* An easy, “almost-magic” way to set yourself a part from a sea of copywriters business owners loathe.

* One secret “Mr. Moneyfingers” divulged which changed everything about Justin’s upselling.

* Do you have these 6 talents? The skillset growing business owners want from their copywriter today.

* Discover secrets of growing a company from zero to over 20 million. (Without this one indispensible factor it’s IMPOSSIBLE!)

Mentioned:

* Justin Goff on Facebook

* David Deutsch

* Dan Kennedy’s JV/Backend Seminar

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody We’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan and we got a really special guest on the show for you today from what I know he’s just sold his controlling interest in a big supplement company. Justin Goff Welcome to the show. I saw that post this morning I think so I don’t know how recent that is but he sounds like you sold your interest in more than 20 million dollar company.

Justin Goff: Yeah I did. Twenty three million in 2016. My partners just worked out a deal last Friday. So.

David Allan: Wow,congratulations.

Justin Goff: I’m officially unemployed

David Allan: And unemployable too I’m sure. So maybe for people who don’t know much about you let’s sort of start with your super hero origin story where did you come from and how did you get to the point where you were selling your interest in such a big company?

Justin Goff: Yes. Lots of twists and turns along the way. I started making web sites online in college mostly because I had a thousand dollar gambling debt and it needs to make back and a bunch of money.

I got the first taste of making money making sales online which was great. Kind of a big turning point was 2010 now. I basically was doing some client work I was doing freelance copywriting more just skating by than anything I had been sitting on this project. I was working on for a while which was a health offer kind was focused on my paleo diet and I was kind of before paleo got as big as it is now.

Ryan Stewman, AKA. the “Hardcore Closer” was one of the first guests on my (David Allan’s) Takeover Tuesday Podcast.

He’s had a sordid career path full of obstacles (a lot self-inflicted) that he managed

to overcome.

He’s turned his passion and skills into a multi-million dollar empire of businesses.

What’s funny is that he recently hired my former co-hos and recent guest of this podcast.

Carlos Redlich.

So what you’ll get a bird’s eye view of is the way one entrepreneur found and hired himself a copywriter.

As a bonus, Ryan talks a little about success and making sure you don’t start to

blow-up or implode on your way to getting what you want.

Both angles are very important lessons and an insider’s view on how everything works

in the real world.

For those paying real close attention…

Ryan demonstrates and embodies what it takes to find “your people”.

Which is another bonus only the crafty will take away.

Buckle that seatbelt, this one is a helluva ride.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* Why 99% of all copywriters miss the boat when they approach new clients. (Ryan lays bare the reason this didn’t work with him at all!)

* How Ryan thrives with the odds stacked against him while others wallow in misery.

* The exact reasons Ryan noticed the copywriters he’s hired and how they lured him into their web.

* How one copywriter approached Ryan early in his career… and didn’t land him as a client – Ryan’s shocking confession!

* The hip-hop “remix” method of securing copy clients that could have snared Ryan.

Mentioned:

* HardcoreCloser.com

* Elevator To The Top Book

* Ryan Stewman On Takeover Tuesday

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody, I’m David Allan We’re back with another edition of the podcast and today I have a very special guest someone I’ve had on my previous podcast Takeover Tuesday. He’s one of my favorite entrepreneurs and he’s the “Hardcore Closer”, Ryan Stewman How are you?

Ryan Stewman: I am awesome. I am. I’m glad to be back. I didn’t realize that this was a different podcast than the one that we were on together before – YouTube deal though right. Like it was maybe on YouTube you’re promoting it.

David Allan: That’s right. That’s right. So previously it was myself and Carlos Redlich who were doing it and we had you on….

Ryan Stewman: I’m sorry to interrupt. No it’s really crazy. I did not realize that that was where I met Carlos. I actually just hired Carlos a couple of weeks ago. So that’s that’s hilarious. I had no idea that this was where he came from. I remember that obviously because we spoke like he I guess he didn’t really talk that much.

Well that’s, Carlos – listen get to workspn, so I can get my copy.

David Allan: Now you’ve been busy in a year that’s intervened. You continue to build your empire. You have a new book out. I have not read this latest book. It’s called “Fuck Your Excuses”. And I just wanted to touch on I was reading sort of a couple of the reviews. Since I haven’t read the actual book and this review so...

He’s the mentor to some of the most prolific

and celebrated copywriters alive.

Devouring every book…

Attending every seminar he could find…

And testing everything he was learning…

Gave him the knowledge and skill he would try to pass on

later as a coach.

From humble Halbert beginnings to writing a letter which pulled

in $40 million for a client, he wanted it more than anything else he

had ever tried in his life.

So he created simple systems he could use to focus…and gave

creativity and big ideas the space to breed.

Now he’s passing along a small chunk of his wisdom.

What he shares here will make you a better copywriter almost overnight.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* The letter and FREE seminar that completely changed his life.

* Why he’d flush 90% of his masters in education down the drain except for these two radical insights.

* The “Dilbert” way of getting into the flow state. (Forget goal-setting for now and focus on this simple idea).

* Poor copywriters usually screw THIS up – How world-class writers use it to create millions.

* Have you ever wondered what a world-class copy coach sings like? Your wait is over!

Mentioned:

* David’s Copy Mentoring

* Scott Adams’ “How To Fail At Almost Everything And Still Win Big: Kind Of The Story Of My Life

* Chris Voss’ Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It

* David’s “Copywriters Podcast”

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody it’s David Allan. I’m back with another edition of the podcast. We have a very special guest on with us today. He’s a copywriter. He’s a mentor. He’s an author. He’s many things but he is someone who’s going to immediately help you fix your copy make it better and make the money and or the conversions just roll right in now. David Garfinkel you are a mentor to a bunch of superstar copywriters. Talk a little bit about how you got into being a mentor.

David Garfinkel: Sure. Well I was originally a hotshot journalist who hated the Hot Shot part. It just wasn’t fun. I kept doing better and better I was San Francisco bureau chief for McGraw-Hill World News. Now that might mean nothing to most people as it should. But inside McGraw-Hill that was like – that was like the brass ring in the corporate world where I really didn’t belong but somehow found my way in there I got this job that someone else had fought off all comers to for 40 years she held this job woman. Wow. Which is a big deal at the time because this was 1984. So she’d been there since 1944 or whatever. And she was good but bursitis and Silicon Valley conspired to make it no longer a viable proposition. She couldn’t understand computers. And I did. I got it. It was lucky. I’m I’m not a coder I’m not a nerd but I’ve always liked new better ways to do things and so computers came out in 1981. I mean I I rushed up to this place in the north end of Chicago where I lived and bought a Kaypro too.

I don’t know anyone on this.

Nick got his start in the design and usability world.

Now he works with Ecommerce and software companies

on their conversion.

He delves into the real info you need to dig up so you can make

informed decisions.

The questions…

The body language…

The ever-present smile…

He wants answers whether you can handle them or not.

When you’re not testing there’s money left on the table.

Nick helps people find that money.

So watch as he gives real-world answers on how to dig out that

money from every nook and cranny.

Over 4x industry average.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

* How to get real answer out of prospects and customers so you can mine real conversion gold.

* What big ecommerce retailers are failing at over and over. Learn this and double your bottom line or more.

* The one thing nobody online gets right the first time and the simple fix you can do today.

* Does your business serve the entire human race? Your answer may explain why your conversion sucks.

* Is your business “Tone Deaf”? How to “get real” today and find your people.

Mentioned:

* Nick DiSabato’s Draft

* HotJar

* User Testing

* David Allan’s Make Words Pay

Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO

David Allan: Hey, everybody We’re back with another edition of the podcast. I’m David Allan of course and we have an exciting guest on today. I will actually get his name right since I just asked him a few seconds ago how to pronounce it. And Nick DiSabato How are you?

Nick: DiSabato: I’m doing great. And that was perfect.

David Allan: I had practice for a second and a half so I’m good and good this time nice. Now Nick we’re going to start with like we do with most guests and sort of delving into your career trajectory or superhero origin story if you will on that journey from where you were. You know you had a regular job are you in school or whatever started and sort of take us up where you’re at now. You can it can be short it can be long and be whatever you want to divulge and surging up and some more of what you’re doing nowadays.

Nick DiSabato: Sounds great. So I am an interaction designer by trade. I did computer interaction in graduate school and got out and became a frontline developer and that turned out to be a horrible idea. So I started doing more like usability and UXO type stuff of various agencies for five or six years and then I quit my job and started my own consultancy and started to treat it like it was an actual business. I hate to make more money than you spend.

And then I saw I did a bunch of like random wireframe type projects and projects for a couple of years and decided to come up with a retainer for my my work and decided that AP testing wouldn’t make for a really good retainer because you’re still doing design here practicing at Asadi but you’re also measuring the economic impact of it and doing it in a way that solves a really big expensive problem for organizations of certain size and scale.

So I did that about three and a half years ago and it blew up and did really well and I had to go in hard on that side of things since.

Awesome awesome. It’s very interesting.

Was there something about you know where it’s where you’re at now is sort of the A B testing in the research into that...