<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Synopsis</h2>
If you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you, as guest <a href="https://philberg.coach">Phil Berg</a> likes to say. But before they can want to help you, your referral partners have to trust you to uphold their reputations. Prospects have to feel safe giving you their money. 
Don’t introduce doubts about your reliability by showing up late to meetings or complaining about how busy you are. First, get clear on your own goals, how to achieve them, and a realistic timeline. Next, make sure you know why someone would want to hire you. 
Only then can you teach people how to talk about you in a way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Read <a href="https://tinyurl.com/NetworkingisaMarathonPaperback"><cite>Networking Is a Marathon, Not a Sprint</cite></a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2024/11/27/episode-888-how-to-educate-others-to-refer-you/">Episode 888: How to Educate Others to Refer You</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2024/12/04/episode-889-taking-a-leadership-role-in-your-chapter/">Episode 889: Taking a Leadership Role in Your Chapter</a></li>
<li>Visit <a href="https://philberg.coach">Phil Berg’s website, philberg.coach</a>.</li>
</ul>
<figure class="wp-block-image aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com"><img decoding="async" src="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/misner-audio-ad.jpg" alt="Misner Audio Programs: www.misneraudioprograms.com. Including the Maximize BNI Package, the Your Business Starter Package, and Dr. Misner's Complete Audio Library!"/></a><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.</figcaption></figure>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Complete Transcript of Episode 978</h2>
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: I just got back in time to do this podcast. I’ve been doing a keynote presentation for an organization in Tampa, and of course, I made sure to stop by BNI and do a quick BNI event there in Tampa as well.
Priscilla: Oh, that sounds good. So, who do you have on the line today?
Ivan: I have a really good friend, longtime friend, Phil Berg. Phil has been on four, or this may be his fifth, podcast that we have done together. Phil is married to his childhood sweetheart Jackie, and they’ve been together for 50 years. They have two kids. He’s a former UK and Ireland BNI Assistant National Director. He’s the first person in all of Europe to develop a networking group, a BNI group of over 100 members. He’s been part of BNI for 29 years to date, and he’s an Amazon best-selling author in this book that I’ve heard of called Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint. Actually, Phil and I are co-authors along with Bharat Daga. And of course, he’s an international keynote speaker. Phil, welcome back to BNI Podcast.
Phil: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back.
Ivan: Well, I heard you do a presentation in the United Kingdom when I was visiting on building trust or introducing doubt. So, talk to me a little bit about the necessity of relationship building to ensure that you ultimately achieve what you’re trying to achieve, which is building trust.
Phil: Yeah, I think trust is a necessity, and I think people need to manage their expectations regarding this. So, for example, they join our amazing BNI, and I think it’s like the equivalent of I’ve joined the gymnasium. Why aren’t I getting fit? And for me, you’ve got to build those relationships. I have a saying that if you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you. But the want to, in my eyes, comes first. You know, am I safe to pass you over to someone that needs you? Is my reputation going to be intact? Are you going to, you know, live up to my boast about you, which I think is an element of trust.
Ivan: So let me understand this. Are you saying that you need to know exactly what you want to achieve, and why, in order to accomplish that?
Phil: I think for sure, and that’s certainly in our Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint book. That ultimately, if I really don’t know my why… You know, why do I want this person? What do I do for them? Why do they want me? And ultimately, why are you safe to introduce me to them? So I think the why is a very big word, and if you connect all those three, I think all three need to be in place for the introduction to happen comfortably, safely, and trustworthily.
Ivan: And if you don’t do that, is that how you introduce doubt? Because the doubt is what I found interesting for your topic.
Phil: Yeah, I think so. I have a saying that people’s perception is their truth until they know the real truth. So, if I have any concerns, and as you know, you say this fantastically. The way we’re seen as doing anything is the way we’re perceived as doing everything, and that’s from your good self. And that stuck with me many years ago. 
So if you’re generally arriving somewhere at the last moment and breathing deeply because you’ve just been panicking and rushing, then I figure that that’s how you’re going to be a first impression to the person I recommend you to. 
If I say to you, “How are you doing?” and you say, “Oh my goodness, it’s fantastic, but I’m working 20 hours a day.” Even that is like, “Okay, well, that sounds great, but can I introduce you to somebody? Because can you cope with that? Can I trust that you are going to represent my reputation positively?” So I start with doubts. For me, I don’t trust anybody until I can, because I’ve made the mistake of I trust you and then I get let down.
Ivan: All right, so just for the record, I should never say I’m busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
Phil: (chuckling) I think there’s a way to say it, actually.  I actually teach people to say, “Hey, you know, it’s fantastic. I’m really, really busy. It’s great. I can always handle more, but it’s really good.”
Ivan: Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer.
Phil: Yeah.
Ivan: I actually, I have so many people say to me, “You must be really busy.” I’ve stopped saying, “Yeah, I’m busy.” What I try to do is say, “I have a full life.” Sometimes it’s really, really full, but I have a full life, which is to me a very much more positive way of describing it.
Phil: I agree, and I think a lot depends on what the person wants when asked that question. If, for example, you don’t want anything more, then I think your answer is beautiful. But for people in business, there is an alleged saying that the number one reason people don’t close a deal is because they don’t ask for the order.
Ivan: Yeah.
Phil: So likewise, you don’t want to tell everyone how crazy hours you’re working, which stops people giving you the business opportunity because they’re just worried that are you going to phone someone back in an appropriate amount of time? Can you fulfill their need, or are you just going to squeeze this in? Am I going to be the one to give you a heart attack?
Ivan: So you also talked about, at the conference, about knowing what you need to do, being able to achieve what you want, have realistic expectations of a timeline. You want to talk about that a little bit?
Phil: Yeah, I think I said it. I think it’s the equivalent of going to a gymnasium and expecting to lose my tummy, which I’m not doing. I’m expecting to lose my tummy after the first session. I think there has to be a realistic expectation. However, as per our book, you can speed the timeline up. I mean, one-to-ones are a very, very effective way to, if you like, get people to understand you more on a personal level. As you know through BNI, we have the GAINS profile, and sometimes even answering that myself… I remember when I was first a member, and the G stands for goals, and it was okay, Phil, What are your goals? And honestly, I struggled because it was like, well, actually, Phil, what are my goals? And if I’m not clear with them, how can anybody help me?
Ivan: Exactly.
Phil: I think it was really, really important to know not just why do I want an introduction to that person, but why do they want me? And I think when we understand that we’re all solution providers, then I want people to phone somebody up and say, “Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve got to introduce you to Phil because I know he can help you with this challenge.”
Ivan: Yeah. Well, let me let me throw a little curveball at you here, Phil.
Phil: Great.
Ivan: The title for this is “Building Trust or Introducing Doubt.”
Phil: Yeah.
Ivan: In just a couple of sentences, what do you think is the key element to that title for the listeners?
Phil: I would say being what others need you to be is the answer that comes straight into my head. So, for example, you could think really well of yourself, and yet actually others don’t feel well of you. So I always say, you know, it’s one of my Bergisms, that reputation is what people say about us when we are not there. People work very, very hard to purchase your product or your service. Do they feel safe and comfortable to give [you] the money and know that they’re going to be happy at the end of it?
Ivan: So it’s really sort of your perception versus your reputation?
Phil: Yeah, I think my perception may not be their truth.
Ivan: Yeah, yeah, good. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up, Phil?
Phil: I’d say make sure you know what you want. Make sure you know the activity to achieve it, and I think it’s very, very important to educate those around you and start prioritizing. You know, sometimes we wait for results because we don’t actually approach the people that could help us first. So have a look at who you know can help you and make sure they understand what you’re looking for, and particularly, and I’m passionate about this: how to talk about you in a way and a simple way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.
Ivan: Yeah. Phil, thanks for being back on BNI Podcast. For anyone that wants more information on Phil, go to <a href="https://philberg.coach">www.philberg.coach</a>. That’s Phil, P-H-I-L-B as in boy, E-R-G. dot coach. Phil, thanks again for being on BNI Podcast.
Phil: My privilege, my honor. Look after yourself.
Ivan: And by the way, thank you for everything you did with the book Networking is a Marathon. You’re a great co-author.
Phil: Oh, you’re lovely. Thank you so much. Privileged.
Ivan: Back to you, Priscilla.
Priscilla: All right, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for the great information.
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" class="ek-link">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis If you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you, as guest Phil Berg likes to say. But before they can want to help you, your referral partners have to trust you to uphold their reputations. Prospects have to feel safe giving you their money. Don’t introduce doubts about your reliability by showing up late to meetings or complaining about how busy you are. First, get clear on your own goals, how to achieve them, and a realistic timeline. Next, make sure you know why someone would want to hire you. Only then can you teach people how to talk about you in a way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you. Links Read Networking Is a Marathon, Not a Sprint. Listen to Episode 888: How to Educate Others to Refer You. Listen to Episode 889: Taking a Leadership Role in Your Chapter Visit Phil Berg’s website, philberg.coach. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 978 Priscilla:Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan:I just got back in time to do this podcast. I’ve been doing a keynote presentation for an organization in Tampa, and of course, I made sure to stop by BNI and do a quick BNI event there in Tampa as well. Priscilla:Oh, that sounds good. So, who do you have on the line today? Ivan:I have a really good friend, longtime friend, Phil Berg. Phil has been on four, or this may be his fifth, podcast that we have done together. Phil is married to his childhood sweetheart Jackie, and they’ve been together for 50 years. They have two kids. He’s a former UK and Ireland BNI Assistant National Director. He’s the first person in all of Europe to develop a networking group, a BNI group of over 100 members. He’s been part of BNI for 29 years to date, and he’s an Amazon best-selling author in this book that I’ve heard of called Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint. Actually, Phil and I are co-authors along with Bharat Daga. And of course, he’s an international keynote speaker. Phil, welcome back to BNI Podcast. Phil:Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back. Ivan:Well, I heard you do a presentation in the United Kingdom when I was visiting on building trust or introducing doubt. So, talk to me a little bit about the necessity of relationship building to ensure that you ultimately achieve what you’re trying to achieve, which is building trust. Phil:Yeah, I think trust is a necessity, and I think people need to manage their expectations regarding this. So, for example, they join our amazing BNI, and I think it’s like the equivalent of I’ve joined the gymnasium. Why aren’t I getting fit? And for me, you’ve got to build those relationships. I have a saying that if you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you. But the want to, in my eyes, comes first. You know, am I safe to pass you over to someone that needs you? Is my reputation going to be intact? Are you going to, you know, live up to my boast about you, which I think is an element of trust. Ivan:So let me understand this. Are you saying that you need to know exactly what you want to achieve, and why, in order to accomplish that? Phil:I think for sure, and that’s certainly in our Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint book. That ultimately, if I really don’t know my why… You know, why do I want this person? What do I do for them? Why do they want me? And ultimately, why are you safe to introduce me to them? So I think the why is a very big word, and if you connect all those three, I think all three need to be in place for the introduction to happen comfortably, safely, and trustworthily. Ivan:And if you don’t do that, is that how you introduce doubt? Because the doubt is what I found interesting for your topic. Phil:Yeah, I think so. I have a saying that people’s perception is their truth until they know the real truth. So, if I have any concerns, and as you know, you say this fantastically. The way we’re seen as doing anything is the way we’re perceived as doing everything, and that’s from your good self. And that stuck with me many years ago. So if you’re generally arriving somewhere at the last moment and breathing deeply because you’ve just been panicking and rushing, then I figure that that’s how you’re going to be a first impression to the person I recommend you to. If I say to you, “How are you doing?” and you say, “Oh my goodness, it’s fantastic, but I’m working 20 hours a day.” Even that is like, “Okay, well, that sounds great, but can I introduce you to somebody? Because can you cope with that? Can I trust that you are going to represent my reputation positively?” So I start with doubts. For me, I don’t trust anybody until I can, because I’ve made the mistake of I trust you and then I get let down. Ivan:All right, so just for the record, I should never say I’m busier than a one-armed paper hanger. Phil: (chuckling)I think there’s a way to say it, actually. I actually teach people to say, “Hey, you know, it’s fantastic. I’m really, really busy. It’s great. I can always handle more, but it’s really good.” Ivan:Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer. Phil:Yeah. Ivan:I actually, I have so many people say to me, “You must be really busy.” I’ve stopped saying, “Yeah, I’m busy.” What I try to do is say, “I have a full life.” Sometimes it’s really, really full, but I have a full life, which is to me a very much more positive way of describing it. Phil:I agree, and I think a lot depends on what the person wants when asked that question. If, for example, you don’t want anything more, then I think your answer is beautiful. But for people in business, there is an alleged saying that the number one reason people don’t close a deal is because they don’t ask for the order. Ivan:Yeah. Phil:So likewise, you don’t want to tell everyone how crazy hours you’re working, which stops people giving you the business opportunity because they’re just worried that are you going to phone someone back in an appropriate amount of time? Can you fulfill their need, or are you just going to squeeze this in? Am I going to be the one to give you a heart attack? Ivan:So you also talked about, at the conference, about knowing what you need to do, being able to achieve what you want, have realistic expectations of a timeline. You want to talk about that a little bit? Phil:Yeah, I think I said it. I think it’s the equivalent of going to a gymnasium and expecting to lose my tummy, which I’m not doing. I’m expecting to lose my tummy after the first session. I think there has to be a realistic expectation. However, as per our book, you can speed the timeline up. I mean, one-to-ones are a very, very effective way to, if you like, get people to understand you more on a personal level. As you know through BNI, we have the GAINS profile, and sometimes even answering that myself… I remember when I was first a member, and the G stands for goals, and it was okay, Phil, What are your goals? And honestly, I struggled because it was like, well, actually, Phil, what are my goals? And if I’m not clear with them, how can anybody help me? Ivan:Exactly. Phil:I think it was really, really important to know not just why do I want an introduction to that person, but why do they want me? And I think when we understand that we’re all solution providers, then I want people to phone somebody up and say, “Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve got to introduce you to Phil because I know he can help you with this challenge.” Ivan:Yeah. Well, let me let me throw a little curveball at you here, Phil. Phil:Great. Ivan:The title for this is “Building Trust or Introducing Doubt.” Phil:Yeah. Ivan:In just a couple of sentences, what do you think is the key element to that title for the listeners? Phil:I would say being what others need you to be is the answer that comes straight into my head. So, for example, you could think really well of yourself, and yet actually others don’t feel well of you. So I always say, you know, it’s one of my Bergisms, that reputation is what people say about us when we are not there. People work very, very hard to purchase your product or your service. Do they feel safe and comfortable to give [you] the money and know that they’re going to be happy at the end of it? Ivan:So it’s really sort of your perception versus your reputation? Phil:Yeah, I think my perception may not be their truth. Ivan:Yeah, yeah, good. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up, Phil? Phil:I’d say make sure you know what you want. Make sure you know the activity to achieve it, and I think it’s very, very important to educate those around you and start prioritizing. You know, sometimes we wait for results because we don’t actually approach the people that could help us first. So have a look at who you know can help you and make sure they understand what you’re looking for, and particularly, and I’m passionate about this: how to talk about you in a way and a simple way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you. Ivan:Yeah. Phil, thanks for being back on BNI Podcast. For anyone that wants more information on Phil, go to www.philberg.coach. That’s Phil, P-H-I-L-B as in boy, E-R-G. dot coach. Phil, thanks again for being on BNI Podcast. Phil:My privilege, my honor. Look after yourself. Ivan:And by the way, thank you for everything you did with the book Networking is a Marathon. You’re a great co-author. Phil:Oh, you’re lovely. Thank you so much. Privileged. Ivan:Back to you, Priscilla. Priscilla:All right, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for the great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis
If you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you, as guest <a href="https://philberg.coach" rel="noopener noreferrer">Phil Berg</a> likes to say. But before they can want to help you, your referral partners have to trust you to uphold their reputations. Prospects have to feel safe giving you their money. 
Don’t introduce doubts about your reliability by showing up late to meetings or complaining about how busy you are. First, get clear on your own goals, how to achieve them, and a realistic timeline. Next, make sure you know why someone would want to hire you. 
Only then can you teach people how to talk about you in a way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.
Links
<ul>
<li>Read <a href="https://tinyurl.com/NetworkingisaMarathonPaperback" rel="noopener noreferrer">Networking Is a Marathon, Not a Sprint</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2024/11/27/episode-888-how-to-educate-others-to-refer-you/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 888: How to Educate Others to Refer You</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2024/12/04/episode-889-taking-a-leadership-role-in-your-chapter/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 889: Taking a Leadership Role in Your Chapter</a></li>
<li>Visit <a href="https://philberg.coach" rel="noopener noreferrer">Phil Berg’s website, philberg.coach</a>.</li>
</ul>
<a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer"></a>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 978
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: I just got back in time to do this podcast. I’ve been doing a keynote presentation for an organization in Tampa, and of course, I made sure to stop by BNI and do a quick BNI event there in Tampa as well.
Priscilla: Oh, that sounds good. So, who do you have on the line today?
Ivan: I have a really good friend, longtime friend, Phil Berg. Phil has been on four, or this may be his fifth, podcast that we have done together. Phil is married to his childhood sweetheart Jackie, and they’ve been together for 50 years. They have two kids. He’s a former UK and Ireland BNI Assistant National Director. He’s the first person in all of Europe to develop a networking group, a BNI group of over 100 members. He’s been part of BNI for 29 years to date, and he’s an Amazon best-selling author in this book that I’ve heard of called Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint. Actually, Phil and I are co-authors along with Bharat Daga. And of course, he’s an international keynote speaker. Phil, welcome back to BNI Podcast.
Phil: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back.
Ivan: Well, I heard you do a presentation in the United Kingdom when I was visiting on building trust or introducing doubt. So, talk to me a little bit about the necessity of relationship building to ensure that you ultimately achieve what you’re trying to achieve, which is building trust.
Phil: Yeah, I think trust is a necessity, and I think people need to manage their expectations regarding this. So, for example, they join our amazing BNI, and I think it’s like the equivalent of I’ve joined the gymnasium. Why aren’t I getting fit? And for me, you’ve got to build those relationships. I have a saying that if you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you. But the want to, in my eyes, comes first. You know, am I safe to pass you over to someone that needs you? Is my reputation going to be intact? Are you going to, you know, live up to my boast about you, which I think is an element of trust.
Ivan: So let me understand this. Are you saying that you need to know exactly what you want to achieve, and why, in order to accomplish that?
Phil: I think for sure, and that’s certainly in our Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint book. That ultimately, if I really don’t know my why… You know, why do I want this person? What do I do for them? Why do they want me? And ultimately, why are you safe to introduce me to them? So I think the why is a very big word, and if you connect all those three, I think all three need to be in place for the introduction to happen comfortably, safely, and trustworthily.
Ivan: And if you don’t do that, is that how you introduce doubt? Because the doubt is what I found interesting for your topic.
Phil: Yeah, I think so. I have a saying that people’s perception is their truth until they know the real truth. So, if I have any concerns, and as you know, you say this fantastically. The way we’re seen as doing anything is the way we’re perceived as doing everything, and that’s from your good self. And that stuck with me many years ago. 
So if you’re generally arriving somewhere at the last moment and breathing deeply because you’ve just been panicking and rushing, then I figure that that’s how you’re going to be a first impression to the person I recommend you to. 
If I say to you, “How are you doing?” and you say, “Oh my goodness, it’s fantastic, but I’m working 20 hours a day.” Even that is like, “Okay, well, that sounds great, but can I introduce you to somebody? Because can you cope with that? Can I trust that you are going to represent my reputation positively?” So I start with doubts. For me, I don’t trust anybody until I can, because I’ve made the mistake of I trust you and then I get let down.
Ivan: All right, so just for the record, I should never say I’m busier than a one-armed paper hanger.
Phil: (chuckling) I think there’s a way to say it, actually.&nbsp; I actually teach people to say, “Hey, you know, it’s fantastic. I’m really, really busy. It’s great. I can always handle more, but it’s really good.”
Ivan: Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer.
Phil: Yeah.
Ivan: I actually, I have so many people say to me, “You must be really busy.” I’ve stopped saying, “Yeah, I’m busy.” What I try to do is say, “I have a full life.” Sometimes it’s really, really full, but I have a full life, which is to me a very much more positive way of describing it.
Phil: I agree, and I think a lot depends on what the person wants when asked that question. If, for example, you don’t want anything more, then I think your answer is beautiful. But for people in business, there is an alleged saying that the number one reason people don’t close a deal is because they don’t ask for the order.
Ivan: Yeah.
Phil: So likewise, you don’t want to tell everyone how crazy hours you’re working, which stops people giving you the business opportunity because they’re just worried that are you going to phone someone back in an appropriate amount of time? Can you fulfill their need, or are you just going to squeeze this in? Am I going to be the one to give you a heart attack?
Ivan: So you also talked about, at the conference, about knowing what you need to do, being able to achieve what you want, have realistic expectations of a timeline. You want to talk about that a little bit?
Phil: Yeah, I think I said it. I think it’s the equivalent of going to a gymnasium and expecting to lose my tummy, which I’m not doing. I’m expecting to lose my tummy after the first session. I think there has to be a realistic expectation. However, as per our book, you can speed the timeline up. I mean, one-to-ones are a very, very effective way to, if you like, get people to understand you more on a personal level. As you know through BNI, we have the GAINS profile, and sometimes even answering that myself… I remember when I was first a member, and the G stands for goals, and it was okay, Phil, What are your goals? And honestly, I struggled because it was like, well, actually, Phil, what are my goals? And if I’m not clear with them, how can anybody help me?
Ivan: Exactly.
Phil: I think it was really, really important to know not just why do I want an introduction to that person, but why do they want me? And I think when we understand that we’re all solution providers, then I want people to phone somebody up and say, “Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve got to introduce you to Phil because I know he can help you with this challenge.”
Ivan: Yeah. Well, let me let me throw a little curveball at you here, Phil.
Phil: Great.
Ivan: The title for this is “Building Trust or Introducing Doubt.”
Phil: Yeah.
Ivan: In just a couple of sentences, what do you think is the key element to that title for the listeners?
Phil: I would say being what others need you to be is the answer that comes straight into my head. So, for example, you could think really well of yourself, and yet actually others don’t feel well of you. So I always say, you know, it’s one of my Bergisms, that reputation is what people say about us when we are not there. People work very, very hard to purchase your product or your service. Do they feel safe and comfortable to give [you] the money and know that they’re going to be happy at the end of it?
Ivan: So it’s really sort of your perception versus your reputation?
Phil: Yeah, I think my perception may not be their truth.
Ivan: Yeah, yeah, good. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up, Phil?
Phil: I’d say make sure you know what you want. Make sure you know the activity to achieve it, and I think it’s very, very important to educate those around you and start prioritizing. You know, sometimes we wait for results because we don’t actually approach the people that could help us first. So have a look at who you know can help you and make sure they understand what you’re looking for, and particularly, and I’m passionate about this: how to talk about you in a way and a simple way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.
Ivan: Yeah. Phil, thanks for being back on BNI Podcast. For anyone that wants more information on Phil, go to <a href="https://philberg.coach" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.philberg.coach</a>. That’s Phil, P-H-I-L-B as in boy, E-R-G. dot coach. Phil, thanks again for being on BNI Podcast.
Phil: My privilege, my honor. Look after yourself.
Ivan: And by the way, thank you for everything you did with the book Networking is a Marathon. You’re a great co-author.
Phil: Oh, you’re lovely. Thank you so much. Privileged.
Ivan: Back to you, Priscilla.
Priscilla: All right, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for the great information.
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Episode 978: Building Trust or Introducing Doubt?

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Synopsis</h2>
As a new BNI member, you need to look at every aspect of the way you present yourself to your chapter and your prospects. That includes your word choice. Using expressions like “honestly” and “to be honest” can backfire. Someone who’s just met you may wonder whether the rest of what you said was dishonest. They may wonder whether what you’re saying now is dishonest. Just make your statement.
If you have to qualify the statement, Dr. Misner likes to say “In my experience.” Guest Jim Meadows prefers “to be clear” if you’re putting something in simpler words. If you say what you mean and back it up with your actions, people will know you’re honest. 
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2007/05/23/episode-007-simplify-your-story">Episode 7: Simplify Your Story</a>.</li>
<li>Read the <a href="https://blog.reliableinsights.com">Reliable Insights Blog</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2024/05/01/episode-858-the-makeover-of-your-weekly-ask/">Episode 858: The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask</a>.</li>
</ul>
<figure class="wp-block-image aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com"><img decoding="async" src="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/misner-audio-ad.jpg" alt="Misner Audio Programs: www.misneraudioprograms.com. Including the Maximize BNI Package, the Your Business Starter Package, and Dr. Misner's Complete Audio Library!"/></a><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.</figcaption></figure>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Complete Transcript of Episode 979</h2>
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: I am doing great. I’m at my home in Austin, Texas. I think I’m going to go out into the hot tub this afternoon. September is a great time to go on out into the hot tub.
Priscilla: Okay, good. And who do you have with us today?
Ivan: I have somebody who’s been on BNI podcast before. This is his second time on BNI podcast. He was on episode 858, The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask, and that is Jim Meadows. He’s entering his seventh year as a BNI member in Kansas City, Missouri [USA]. He’s been the Vice President, the Education Coordinator, the Chapter Success Coach. He’s a member of the International Board of Advisors. He’s earned a couple of master’s degrees. His four-decade career includes corporate training, leadership development, and change management. He specializes in credit card payment processing for the chiropractic industry. That’s a niche industry, and I love seeing niche industries in BNI, and his BNI experience has inspired a long-term goal, which is earning a DBA at Pennsylvania State University. DBA, I assume, is a Doctorate in Business Administration, Jim?
Jim: Correct.
Ivan: Well, welcome back to BNI Podcast. You and Kathy are now happy empty-nesters, I understand, and believe me, I get that totally. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. You’ve got an interesting concept here – A Better Word Than Honesty. So, every new BNI member wants to be a high performer as soon as possible. How is this relevant to them?
Jim: Excellent question. Couple of things: when you’re new in BNI, you want to become a high performer as soon as possible, and that means everything you do, you need to evaluate. What do you look like on the power of one? Are you keeping up with all your training? How do you present yourself? What’s your deportment like? And we’re going to focus today on how do you use words. Words are very, very important. I think we’ve all been there, either as a perpetrator or a recipient or both. Someone wants to emphasize a point, create goodwill, sound persuasive, close a sale, and then it happens. You use some form of one of these phrases: “to be honest with you,” “in all honesty,” “if I’m really being honest with you.” Now Ivan, I call these phrases honesty validators.
Ivan: Yeah.
Jim: Because we believe that by incorporating them into our language, we somehow reinforce the truth of our words.
Ivan: Right.
Jim: Unfortunately, all of that belies the presence of honesty.
 Ivan: Yeah, I think we’ve all been guilty of that. I certainly have.
Jim: Well, there was a 20th century British philosopher of language by the name of Paul Grice. He founded Gricean pragmatics. One of his key tenets is that language is supposed to be a cooperative activity, and it should also be economical. Don’t use words you don’t need. Any time you use a phrase or a word that technically is not required, it could actually be signaling the opposite of your intentions. In this case, if honesty is your default position, then why would you want to signal my default position is dishonesty?
Ivan: Yeah, yeah. I think again, I think almost all of us have done it. I read a book many, I mean, decades, like 40 years ago, called ***On Writing Well, and he uses a term in there about deobfuscating your writing, to not obfuscate it by adding in words like honesty because it just…. or saying things like “honestly this is the way I feel.” Well, you know, you’re right. Do you often lie when you talk about how you feel? I mean, that’s the issue I think you’re bringing up. Yeah?
Jim: Absolutely correct.
Ivan: So how do you solve this dilemma?
Jim: Yeah, how do we solve it? Well, a couple of points here. Naturally, most people hear this and immediately yell, “No, I’m always honest.” But unfortunately, the unintended message contradicts that affirmation, and it’s always the unintended message received by your audience that has consequences with which you might not be happy. So I asked the question many years ago: Do we have a better word than honesty? 
As a lifelong public speaker and writer, I’ve given a lot of thought to this perplexing problem, and I think I’ve arrived at a simple, elegant solution that works very well for me. It might work well for others, too. So I basically maintain that the superior solution is to replace honesty validators with what I’ve termed clarity validators, because these phrases come across so much better. Think about it: “to be clear with you,” “in all clarity,” “if I’m really being clear with you.” You see, people will forgive you for fumbling clarity because anyone can make a mistake. People find it very difficult to forgive you for fumbling honesty, because honesty is a thoughtful, willful choice.
Ivan: What do you think about using a word like candidly?
Jim: Candidly is sort of a substitute for honest, for honestly. So I avoid that word as well, because again, if I have to say to you, speaking candidly, I’m already shooting myself in the foot with my character and my integrity.
Ivan: All right, what about the phrase “in my experience”?
Jim: I think that’s an excellent one because that comes from a place of your personal professional experience, and that tends to carry much more weight with the audience because now they know they’re hearing something important, and your experience has proven it.
Ivan: Alright. So if you embrace this clarity validator logic to replace the honesty validators, how do you do that? Explain that further.
Jim: Yeah, that’s a wild ride. When I made the decision several years ago to replace all of my honesty validators with clarity validators, I had to prepare for a battle in my mind because so many times I would automatically just let it slip in, honestly, or to be honest with you, and then suddenly realize, “Oh, I didn’t want to say it that way.” So you have to really make a concerted effort to think through your linguistic mental library of what’s on autopilot, and get all of those autopilot honesty words out of there, and replace them with clarity words.
Ivan: And so, generally speaking, you’re saying something like “clearly” or “in all clarity” or the one I like to use oftentimes is “in my experience” is more genuine than saying honestly.
Jim: Yes, yes, it definitely is, and we also have to just simply remember that practitioners in deception research flag these kinds of words. They’re just not considered nice words if you’re concerned about integrity and how you want to convey who you are as a person.
Ivan: So you maintain that there’s a vital dynamic between communication, relationship, leadership. Tell us more about that.
Jim: Well, if you really think about it, your personal leadership and relationship and words are all linked together. Here’s what I’m talking about: your leadership is the foundation for all your success. But what builds your leadership? It’s built by your relationships. So you’ve got to have great relationships, relationships of integrity, that feeds into your leadership, and that is the basis for your success. But let’s go all the way back to relationship. Relationships are fundamentally driven by communication. Communication is the lifeblood of your relationships, so you have to go all the way back to the words you use, how you choose and use those words, if you’re truly wanting to invest in positive relationships. They’re all linked together. It’s a wonderful positive dynamic, and you have to play it that way.
Ivan: I’m trying to think of times where, because I have purposely not tried to use the phrase “honestly” for the reasons that you’re describing, and I’m trying to think of the things that I’ve replaced it with. Certainly, “in my experience” is one of them. I’ve used a variation of clarity. I’ll say things like, you know, clearly that’s an important issue. Let’s drill down and talk about that. That kind of phrase. Does that kind of thing work better, you think?
Jim: Absolutely. That’s exactly the kind of wording and verbiage that is only going to help you come across with strong integrity. And again, people will forgive you for making a mistake with clarity, but it’s much more difficult if they feel you’re making mistakes with your honesty, your integrity.
Ivan: Yeah. So this is a really subtle issue, I think, for a lot of people that they may not see the real power in what you’re talking about. I’m not one of them; I believe you’re right, and I would urge people listening to this to really give this some thought and find other ways of describing or… I think oftentimes it’s used as a filler phrase. It’s almost like the “uh” “well” you know, it’s almost like that. It’s used as a filler phrase, and what you’re pointing out is that there are better filler phrases that are clearer than saying something like “in all honesty.” Is that a good assessment?
Jim: That’s an excellent assessment. So many people, just because of our culture and the media around us, so many people automatically throw in, “Well, to be honest,” because they didn’t really want to say it if they truly understood what it implies. But it becomes a filler phrase. It becomes “umm” “uhh” – that kind of a thing.
Ivan: Exactly. Exactly. So I think your point here is well made, and I would urge members to really give this a try. Try to do these things that you’re talking about. We’re out of time. Any last thought before we wrap?
Jim: Certainly, I would simply say to anybody in a conversation, “Hey, if you’re an honest person, then stop speaking in a manner that sends the message ‘My default position is dishonesty,’ clearly.”
Ivan: Yeah, I’m not sure I would say that to people. But if you’re trying to train them on speaking, maybe if they’re open to it. Otherwise they may not take it real well. I bet, however, you have talked about this on your blog, which is blog.reliableinsights.com. That’s blogreliableinsights.com. Jim, thanks for being on BNI podcast again. I appreciate you.
Jim: Thank you very much.
Ivan: Over to you, Priscilla.
Priscilla:
Okay, great. I want to thank you both for that interesting conversation. So, thank you so much for that.
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" class="ek-link">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis As a new BNI member, you need to look at every aspect of the way you present yourself to your chapter and your prospects. That includes your word choice. Using expressions like “honestly” and “to be honest” can backfire. Someone who’s just met you may wonder whether the rest of what you said was dishonest. They may wonder whether what you’re saying now is dishonest. Just make your statement. If you have to qualify the statement, Dr. Misner likes to say “In my experience.” Guest Jim Meadows prefers “to be clear” if you’re putting something in simpler words. If you say what you mean and back it up with your actions, people will know you’re honest. Links Listen to Episode 7: Simplify Your Story. Read the Reliable Insights Blog. Listen to Episode 858: The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 979 Priscilla:Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan:I am doing great. I’m at my home in Austin, Texas. I think I’m going to go out into the hot tub this afternoon. September is a great time to go on out into the hot tub. Priscilla:Okay, good. And who do you have with us today? Ivan:I have somebody who’s been on BNI podcast before. This is his second time on BNI podcast. He was on episode 858, The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask, and that is Jim Meadows. He’s entering his seventh year as a BNI member in Kansas City, Missouri [USA]. He’s been the Vice President, the Education Coordinator, the Chapter Success Coach. He’s a member of the International Board of Advisors. He’s earned a couple of master’s degrees. His four-decade career includes corporate training, leadership development, and change management. He specializes in credit card payment processing for the chiropractic industry. That’s a niche industry, and I love seeing niche industries in BNI, and his BNI experience has inspired a long-term goal, which is earning a DBA at Pennsylvania State University. DBA, I assume, is a Doctorate in Business Administration, Jim? Jim:Correct. Ivan:Well, welcome back to BNI Podcast. You and Kathy are now happy empty-nesters, I understand, and believe me, I get that totally. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. You’ve got an interesting concept here – A Better Word Than Honesty. So, every new BNI member wants to be a high performer as soon as possible. How is this relevant to them? Jim:Excellent question. Couple of things: when you’re new in BNI, you want to become a high performer as soon as possible, and that means everything you do, you need to evaluate. What do you look like on the power of one? Are you keeping up with all your training? How do you present yourself? What’s your deportment like? And we’re going to focus today on how do you use words. Words are very, very important. I think we’ve all been there, either as a perpetrator or a recipient or both. Someone wants to emphasize a point, create goodwill, sound persuasive, close a sale, and then it happens. You use some form of one of these phrases: “to be honest with you,” “in all honesty,” “if I’m really being honest with you.” Now Ivan, I call these phrases honesty validators. Ivan:Yeah. Jim:Because we believe that by incorporating them into our language, we somehow reinforce the truth of our words. Ivan:Right. Jim:Unfortunately, all of that belies the presence of honesty. Ivan:Yeah, I think we’ve all been guilty of that. I certainly have. Jim:Well, there was a 20th century British philosopher of language by the name of Paul Grice. He founded Gricean pragmatics. One of his key tenets is that language is supposed to be a cooperative activity, and it should also be economical. Don’t use words you don’t need. Any time you use a phrase or a word that technically is not required, it could actually be signaling the opposite of your intentions. In this case, if honesty is your default position, then why would you want to signal my default position is dishonesty? Ivan:Yeah, yeah. I think again, I think almost all of us have done it. I read a book many, I mean, decades, like 40 years ago, called ***On Writing Well, and he uses a term in there about deobfuscating your writing, to not obfuscate it by adding in words like honesty because it just…. or saying things like “honestly this is the way I feel.” Well, you know, you’re right. Do you often lie when you talk about how you feel? I mean, that’s the issue I think you’re bringing up. Yeah? Jim:Absolutely correct. Ivan:So how do you solve this dilemma? Jim:Yeah, how do we solve it? Well, a couple of points here. Naturally, most people hear this and immediately yell, “No, I’m always honest.” But unfortunately, the unintended message contradicts that affirmation, and it’s always the unintended message received by your audience that has consequences with which you might not be happy. So I asked the question many years ago: Do we have a better word than honesty? As a lifelong public speaker and writer, I’ve given a lot of thought to this perplexing problem, and I think I’ve arrived at a simple, elegant solution that works very well for me. It might work well for others, too. So I basically maintain that the superior solution is to replace honesty validators with what I’ve termed clarity validators, because these phrases come across so much better. Think about it: “to be clear with you,” “in all clarity,” “if I’m really being clear with you.” You see, people will forgive you for fumbling clarity because anyone can make a mistake. People find it very difficult to forgive you for fumbling honesty, because honesty is a thoughtful, willful choice. Ivan:What do you think about using a word like candidly? Jim:Candidly is sort of a substitute for honest, for honestly. So I avoid that word as well, because again, if I have to say to you, speaking candidly, I’m already shooting myself in the foot with my character and my integrity. Ivan:All right, what about the phrase “in my experience”? Jim:I think that’s an excellent one because that comes from a place of your personal professional experience, and that tends to carry much more weight with the audience because now they know they’re hearing something important, and your experience has proven it. Ivan:Alright. So if you embrace this clarity validator logic to replace the honesty validators, how do you do that? Explain that further. Jim:Yeah, that’s a wild ride. When I made the decision several years ago to replace all of my honesty validators with clarity validators, I had to prepare for a battle in my mind because so many times I would automatically just let it slip in, honestly, or to be honest with you, and then suddenly realize, “Oh, I didn’t want to say it that way.” So you have to really make a concerted effort to think through your linguistic mental library of what’s on autopilot, and get all of those autopilot honesty words out of there, and replace them with clarity words. Ivan:And so, generally speaking, you’re saying something like “clearly” or “in all clarity” or the one I like to use oftentimes is “in my experience” is more genuine than saying honestly. Jim:Yes, yes, it definitely is, and we also have to just simply remember that practitioners in deception research flag these kinds of words. They’re just not considered nice words if you’re concerned about integrity and how you want to convey who you are as a person. Ivan:So you maintain that there’s a vital dynamic between communication, relationship, leadership. Tell us more about that. Jim:Well, if you really think about it, your personal leadership and relationship and words are all linked together. Here’s what I’m talking about: your leadership is the foundation for all your success. But what builds your leadership? It’s built by your relationships. So you’ve got to have great relationships, relationships of integrity, that feeds into your leadership, and that is the basis for your success. But let’s go all the way back to relationship. Relationships are fundamentally driven by communication. Communication is the lifeblood of your relationships, so you have to go all the way back to the words you use, how you choose and use those words, if you’re truly wanting to invest in positive relationships. They’re all linked together. It’s a wonderful positive dynamic, and you have to play it that way. Ivan:I’m trying to think of times where, because I have purposely not tried to use the phrase “honestly” for the reasons that you’re describing, and I’m trying to think of the things that I’ve replaced it with. Certainly, “in my experience” is one of them. I’ve used a variation of clarity. I’ll say things like, you know, clearly that’s an important issue. Let’s drill down and talk about that. That kind of phrase. Does that kind of thing work better, you think? Jim:Absolutely. That’s exactly the kind of wording and verbiage that is only going to help you come across with strong integrity. And again, people will forgive you for making a mistake with clarity, but it’s much more difficult if they feel you’re making mistakes with your honesty, your integrity. Ivan:Yeah. So this is a really subtle issue, I think, for a lot of people that they may not see the real power in what you’re talking about. I’m not one of them; I believe you’re right, and I would urge people listening to this to really give this some thought and find other ways of describing or… I think oftentimes it’s used as a filler phrase. It’s almost like the “uh” “well” you know, it’s almost like that. It’s used as a filler phrase, and what you’re pointing out is that there are better filler phrases that are clearer than saying something like “in all honesty.” Is that a good assessment? Jim:That’s an excellent assessment. So many people, just because of our culture and the media around us, so many people automatically throw in, “Well, to be honest,” because they didn’t really want to say it if they truly understood what it implies. But it becomes a filler phrase. It becomes “umm” “uhh” – that kind of a thing. Ivan:Exactly. Exactly. So I think your point here is well made, and I would urge members to really give this a try. Try to do these things that you’re talking about. We’re out of time. Any last thought before we wrap? Jim: Certainly, I would simply say to anybody in a conversation, “Hey, if you’re an honest person, then stop speaking in a manner that sends the message ‘My default position is dishonesty,’ clearly.” Ivan:Yeah, I’m not sure I would say that to people. But if you’re trying to train them on speaking, maybe if they’re open to it. Otherwise they may not take it real well. I bet, however, you have talked about this on your blog, which is blog.reliableinsights.com. That’s blogreliableinsights.com. Jim, thanks for being on BNI podcast again. I appreciate you. Jim:Thank you very much. Ivan:Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla: Okay, great. I want to thank you both for that interesting conversation. So, thank you so much for that. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis
As a new BNI member, you need to look at every aspect of the way you present yourself to your chapter and your prospects. That includes your word choice. Using expressions like “honestly” and “to be honest” can backfire. Someone who’s just met you may wonder whether the rest of what you said was dishonest. They may wonder whether what you’re saying now is dishonest. Just make your statement.
If you have to qualify the statement, Dr. Misner likes to say “In my experience.” Guest Jim Meadows prefers “to be clear” if you’re putting something in simpler words. If you say what you mean and back it up with your actions, people will know you’re honest. 
Links
<ul>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2007/05/23/episode-007-simplify-your-story" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 7: Simplify Your Story</a>.</li>
<li>Read the <a href="https://blog.reliableinsights.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">Reliable Insights Blog</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2024/05/01/episode-858-the-makeover-of-your-weekly-ask/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 858: The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask</a>.</li>
</ul>
<a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer"></a>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 979
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: I am doing great. I’m at my home in Austin, Texas. I think I’m going to go out into the hot tub this afternoon. September is a great time to go on out into the hot tub.
Priscilla: Okay, good. And who do you have with us today?
Ivan: I have somebody who’s been on BNI podcast before. This is his second time on BNI podcast. He was on episode 858, The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask, and that is Jim Meadows. He’s entering his seventh year as a BNI member in Kansas City, Missouri [USA]. He’s been the Vice President, the Education Coordinator, the Chapter Success Coach. He’s a member of the International Board of Advisors. He’s earned a couple of master’s degrees. His four-decade career includes corporate training, leadership development, and change management. He specializes in credit card payment processing for the chiropractic industry. That’s a niche industry, and I love seeing niche industries in BNI, and his BNI experience has inspired a long-term goal, which is earning a DBA at Pennsylvania State University. DBA, I assume, is a Doctorate in Business Administration, Jim?
Jim: Correct.
Ivan: Well, welcome back to BNI Podcast. You and Kathy are now happy empty-nesters, I understand, and believe me, I get that totally. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. You’ve got an interesting concept here – A Better Word Than Honesty. So, every new BNI member wants to be a high performer as soon as possible. How is this relevant to them?
Jim: Excellent question. Couple of things: when you’re new in BNI, you want to become a high performer as soon as possible, and that means everything you do, you need to evaluate. What do you look like on the power of one? Are you keeping up with all your training? How do you present yourself? What’s your deportment like? And we’re going to focus today on how do you use words. Words are very, very important. I think we’ve all been there, either as a perpetrator or a recipient or both. Someone wants to emphasize a point, create goodwill, sound persuasive, close a sale, and then it happens. You use some form of one of these phrases: “to be honest with you,” “in all honesty,” “if I’m really being honest with you.” Now Ivan, I call these phrases honesty validators.
Ivan: Yeah.
Jim: Because we believe that by incorporating them into our language, we somehow reinforce the truth of our words.
Ivan: Right.
Jim: Unfortunately, all of that belies the presence of honesty.
 Ivan: Yeah, I think we’ve all been guilty of that. I certainly have.
Jim: Well, there was a 20th century British philosopher of language by the name of Paul Grice. He founded Gricean pragmatics. One of his key tenets is that language is supposed to be a cooperative activity, and it should also be economical. Don’t use words you don’t need. Any time you use a phrase or a word that technically is not required, it could actually be signaling the opposite of your intentions. In this case, if honesty is your default position, then why would you want to signal my default position is dishonesty?
Ivan: Yeah, yeah. I think again, I think almost all of us have done it. I read a book many, I mean, decades, like 40 years ago, called ***On Writing Well, and he uses a term in there about deobfuscating your writing, to not obfuscate it by adding in words like honesty because it just…. or saying things like “honestly this is the way I feel.” Well, you know, you’re right. Do you often lie when you talk about how you feel? I mean, that’s the issue I think you’re bringing up. Yeah?
Jim: Absolutely correct.
Ivan: So how do you solve this dilemma?
Jim: Yeah, how do we solve it? Well, a couple of points here. Naturally, most people hear this and immediately yell, “No, I’m always honest.” But unfortunately, the unintended message contradicts that affirmation, and it’s always the unintended message received by your audience that has consequences with which you might not be happy. So I asked the question many years ago: Do we have a better word than honesty? 
As a lifelong public speaker and writer, I’ve given a lot of thought to this perplexing problem, and I think I’ve arrived at a simple, elegant solution that works very well for me. It might work well for others, too. So I basically maintain that the superior solution is to replace honesty validators with what I’ve termed clarity validators, because these phrases come across so much better. Think about it: “to be clear with you,” “in all clarity,” “if I’m really being clear with you.” You see, people will forgive you for fumbling clarity because anyone can make a mistake. People find it very difficult to forgive you for fumbling honesty, because honesty is a thoughtful, willful choice.
Ivan: What do you think about using a word like candidly?
Jim: Candidly is sort of a substitute for honest, for honestly. So I avoid that word as well, because again, if I have to say to you, speaking candidly, I’m already shooting myself in the foot with my character and my integrity.
Ivan: All right, what about the phrase “in my experience”?
Jim: I think that’s an excellent one because that comes from a place of your personal professional experience, and that tends to carry much more weight with the audience because now they know they’re hearing something important, and your experience has proven it.
Ivan: Alright. So if you embrace this clarity validator logic to replace the honesty validators, how do you do that? Explain that further.
Jim: Yeah, that’s a wild ride. When I made the decision several years ago to replace all of my honesty validators with clarity validators, I had to prepare for a battle in my mind because so many times I would automatically just let it slip in, honestly, or to be honest with you, and then suddenly realize, “Oh, I didn’t want to say it that way.” So you have to really make a concerted effort to think through your linguistic mental library of what’s on autopilot, and get all of those autopilot honesty words out of there, and replace them with clarity words.
Ivan: And so, generally speaking, you’re saying something like “clearly” or “in all clarity” or the one I like to use oftentimes is “in my experience” is more genuine than saying honestly.
Jim: Yes, yes, it definitely is, and we also have to just simply remember that practitioners in deception research flag these kinds of words. They’re just not considered nice words if you’re concerned about integrity and how you want to convey who you are as a person.
Ivan: So you maintain that there’s a vital dynamic between communication, relationship, leadership. Tell us more about that.
Jim: Well, if you really think about it, your personal leadership and relationship and words are all linked together. Here’s what I’m talking about: your leadership is the foundation for all your success. But what builds your leadership? It’s built by your relationships. So you’ve got to have great relationships, relationships of integrity, that feeds into your leadership, and that is the basis for your success. But let’s go all the way back to relationship. Relationships are fundamentally driven by communication. Communication is the lifeblood of your relationships, so you have to go all the way back to the words you use, how you choose and use those words, if you’re truly wanting to invest in positive relationships. They’re all linked together. It’s a wonderful positive dynamic, and you have to play it that way.
Ivan: I’m trying to think of times where, because I have purposely not tried to use the phrase “honestly” for the reasons that you’re describing, and I’m trying to think of the things that I’ve replaced it with. Certainly, “in my experience” is one of them. I’ve used a variation of clarity. I’ll say things like, you know, clearly that’s an important issue. Let’s drill down and talk about that. That kind of phrase. Does that kind of thing work better, you think?
Jim: Absolutely. That’s exactly the kind of wording and verbiage that is only going to help you come across with strong integrity. And again, people will forgive you for making a mistake with clarity, but it’s much more difficult if they feel you’re making mistakes with your honesty, your integrity.
Ivan: Yeah. So this is a really subtle issue, I think, for a lot of people that they may not see the real power in what you’re talking about. I’m not one of them; I believe you’re right, and I would urge people listening to this to really give this some thought and find other ways of describing or… I think oftentimes it’s used as a filler phrase. It’s almost like the “uh” “well” you know, it’s almost like that. It’s used as a filler phrase, and what you’re pointing out is that there are better filler phrases that are clearer than saying something like “in all honesty.” Is that a good assessment?
Jim: That’s an excellent assessment. So many people, just because of our culture and the media around us, so many people automatically throw in, “Well, to be honest,” because they didn’t really want to say it if they truly understood what it implies. But it becomes a filler phrase. It becomes “umm” “uhh” – that kind of a thing.
Ivan: Exactly. Exactly. So I think your point here is well made, and I would urge members to really give this a try. Try to do these things that you’re talking about. We’re out of time. Any last thought before we wrap?
Jim: Certainly, I would simply say to anybody in a conversation, “Hey, if you’re an honest person, then stop speaking in a manner that sends the message ‘My default position is dishonesty,’ clearly.”
Ivan: Yeah, I’m not sure I would say that to people. But if you’re trying to train them on speaking, maybe if they’re open to it. Otherwise they may not take it real well. I bet, however, you have talked about this on your blog, which is blog.reliableinsights.com. That’s blogreliableinsights.com. Jim, thanks for being on BNI podcast again. I appreciate you.
Jim: Thank you very much.
Ivan: Over to you, Priscilla.
Priscilla:
Okay, great. I want to thank you both for that interesting conversation. So, thank you so much for that.
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Episode 979: A Better Word Than Honesty

Note: This is a rebroadcast of Episode 748, first published on March 9, 2022. Some links and offers may no longer be valid.
<h2 id="synopsis" class="wp-block-heading">Synopsis</h2>
To receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. To do that, you need to make sure they know these four things.
<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>The Needs Assessment</li>
<li>Your Unique Selling Proposition</li>
<li>Why Are You in Business?</li>
<li>What’s Your Emotionally Charged Connection?</li>
</ol>
Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2016/04/06/episode-451-why-do-you-do-what-you-do/" class="ek-link">Episode 451</a> and read “<a href="https://ivanmisner.com/why-you-do-what-you-do-is-your-key-to-success/" class="ek-link">Why You Do What You Do Is Your Key to Success</a>” for more about Emotionally Charged Connections.
What have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share your answers in the comments.
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com"><img decoding="async" src="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/misner-audio-ad.jpg" alt="Misner Audio Programs: www.misneraudioprograms.com. Including the Maximize BNI Package, the Your Business Starter Package, and Dr. Misner's Complete Audio Library!" class=""/></a><figcaption>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.</figcaption></figure>
</div>

<h2 id="complete-transcript-of-episode-748" class="wp-block-heading">Complete Transcript of Episode 748</h2>
Priscilla: Hello everybody and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: I am at home in Austin, Texas this week. And, you know, most of our podcasts, almost all of our podcasts, land a post on Wednesday morning. And many of you may not know this, but for the last couple of years, every Wednesday, I have Sam Horn come over in the morning. Sam wrote the book, “POP!” where she mentioned BNI, and that was before I knew Sam. And she also wrote the book, “Someday is Not a Day in the Week.” I talk about Sam and quote her in a number of places. She comes over every Wednesday morning after this podcast goes live. And we do what we call “Writing Wednesday.” But honestly, Priscilla, it’s oftentimes ‘talking’ Wednesday. We talk. We talk a lot about writing, but we talk a lot. And today’s topic is The Willing Conversation.
Priscilla: Uh huh.
Ivan: And so it’s about talking to people. Do you remember, Priscilla, when you were a kid how fun magnets were to play with?
Priscilla: Yes.
Ivan: Yeah, I loved magnets. And depending on which way you turn the magnet, they were either attracted or repelled by one another. And as an adult, we may find ourselves feeling six years old again when we make a phone call to a referral, who turns out to not be a referral at all. And similar to a magnet that’s turned the wrong direction, you’re not being embraced in that conversation, you’re being resisted. So the referral you were given that should have been a warm introduction quickly turns into a cold call.
We all want good referrals, people who want to talk to us. We want to give and receive referrals that are willing conversations about the products and services that we have to offer. And to receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral.
So here are four tips that you can follow that will help you with those willing conversations. 
The first tip is The Needs Assessment. It’s really your responsibility to be very clear; it’s our responsibility – I’ll talk about it with me as well. It’s our responsibility to be very clear and specific with our referral partners about what constitutes a good referral. And this is a combination of an ideal prospect profile and the problems that we can solve for them. Because it’s not just about what you do, it’s about what solutions you have for the people that you’re working with. It’s about what Andy Bounds calls the AFTERs —what are things going to look like after you’ve worked with them. 
So, the needs assessment really is an example of you clearly defining your target market. So for a corporate coach, as an example, you might say that a small to medium sized company with fewer than 100 employees, closely held business – family owned business, regional with locations, you know, local in a state or two, and that they as a coach provide themselves on higher than average retention, getting companies to have higher than average retention for employees. And they may be in a competitive industry and as an executive coach, you can help them gain an advantage. So, you know, you want to communicate your target market very clearly to the people in your BNI group.
Ivan: You also want to describe your Unique Selling Proposition. So do you have dozens or hundreds of competitors in your marketplace? You probably do. And that means that your unique selling proposition, or USP, is really important because it allows you to stand out among your competition. Your USP is a brief description of the purpose of your business. It’s stated in the most concise and compelling way possible in order to help others understand the unique value of what it is that you do. So your unique selling proposition tells people the type of client you like to work with and the benefits that you can provide for them.
And what you want to say is what makes what makes you stand out and why that makes you stand out. What do you do that your competition can’t touch? At the very least, figure out what you do better than your rivals and go beyond simply saying ‘good customer service.’ That’s really part of your unique selling proposition – what it is that you have that your competition doesn’t.
The third thing is Why Are You in Business? What’s your passion? Why do you go to work? Unfortunately, one of the most popular answers to the question is ‘to make money.’ That’s the worst answer a business professional can ever give. You’ve got to be able to describe why it is that you do what it is that you do. Why are you in your profession? How do you change lives? You know, that’s what the referral partners in your business group, in your BNI chapter, that’s what they want to know. Remember, passion really is referable. You need to go deep and identify your why if you want to truly connect with people on a personal level.
The fourth thing is, what is your Emotionally Charged Connection? Your emotionally charged connection, or ECC, is a phrase leading to a story that your referral partners can recite when referring to you. So for those of you who want to know what my ECC is, what my emotionally charged connection is, go to episode <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2016/04/06/episode-451-why-do-you-do-what-you-do/" class="ek-link">number 451: Why Do You Do What You Do?</a> And in that episode, I shared my emotionally charged connection and why that was so incredibly important to me, and why I do what it is that I do in business. It really stems from that podcast, 451, the experience that I have, from the podcast that I talk about.
We all have an ECC, it was something that happened to you, often during childhood, that lays the groundwork for who you are as a person. It can be positive; it can be negative. Many people are not consciously aware of their emotionally charged connection yet, it’s the reason that we get up in the morning and do the things that we do every day. It’s driven by the heart, not by the checkbook, or by the head; there’s a big difference. And I’m going to also include a link in here where you can read about my emotionally charged connection. I did a blog on the same topic and so I’ll have <a href="https://ivanmisner.com/why-you-do-what-you-do-is-your-key-to-success/" class="ek-link">a link here for that blog</a> as well. The bottom line is that the better you become at sharing the information in these tips that I’ve just given you with your BNI group, the more likely you are to feel like the magnet that attracts, instead of the magnet that repels. Your referral partners will be able to give you good referrals that lead to the willing conversation.
Well, I have a question for everyone when we’re done here. Priscilla, do you have any thoughts before we wrap up?
Priscilla: No, but I haven’t heard this before and I really like what you’re talking about. I don’t remember hearing about the emotionally charged connection. Is that what it is?
Ivan: Yeah, well, you were there for me. It was episode number 451.
Priscilla: I just made a note. I’m gonna go back and listen to it.
Ivan: Go back and listen to it. It was the story — you’ll remember it as soon as I give you a little heads-up. There’s a story about my teacher, Mr. Romero, and asking who wants to be on the student council.
Priscilla: Aha, yeah, I remember that.
Ivan: Yeah. And that was my emotionally charged connection. Because after that experience, which I’m not going to restate here on this podcast, go back and listen to 451. After that experience with this teacher, who, by the way, changed my life in many ways. After that experience, I realized many years later, that almost every business I’ve ever been drawn to and ever started was about inspiring people or providing people with an opportunity to be their best. And that’s really what BNI is, isn’t it? It’s about giving people an opportunity. You know, you joined BNI, you gotta work.
Priscilla: Yeah.
Ivan: And I talked about this in the podcast, you know, in 451, it’s not like it was just a gift and I walked away and became successful. It was a gift that I had to work at. It gave me an opportunity, the gift was an opportunity, and that opportunity I had to work really hard at. And from that opportunity, I achieved the level of success in high school. And from that, I realized many, many years later, not at the moment, that that experience led me to try to give other people that experience, to try to give them an opportunity to achieve success. And that’s really what BNI is about. So, go listen to episode 451 everyone.
Priscilla: Yeah, I plan to.
Ivan: It’s a powerful story. It’s a true story. So for those of you who are listening to this podcast, let me ask you a question. I read all of the questions that get posted here, or comments that get posted here on BNI podcast. 
My question is, what have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share them here on the BNI podcast. That’s everything I’ve got, Priscilla, over to you.
Priscilla: That was great. Thank you so much, Ivan. 
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" class="ek-link">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Note: This is a rebroadcast of Episode 748, first published on March 9, 2022. Some links and offers may no longer be valid. Synopsis To receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. To do that, you need to make sure they know these four things. The Needs Assessment Your Unique Selling Proposition Why Are You in Business? What’s Your Emotionally Charged Connection? Listen to Episode 451 and read “Why You Do What You Do Is Your Key to Success” for more about Emotionally Charged Connections. What have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share your answers in the comments. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 748 Priscilla:Hello everybody and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan: I am at home in Austin, Texas this week. And, you know, most of our podcasts, almost all of our podcasts, land a post on Wednesday morning. And many of you may not know this, but for the last couple of years, every Wednesday, I have Sam Horn come over in the morning. Sam wrote the book, “POP!” where she mentioned BNI, and that was before I knew Sam. And she also wrote the book, “Someday is Not a Day in the Week.” I talk about Sam and quote her in a number of places. She comes over every Wednesday morning after this podcast goes live. And we do what we call “Writing Wednesday.” But honestly, Priscilla, it’s oftentimes ‘talking’ Wednesday. We talk. We talk a lot about writing, but we talk a lot. And today’s topic is The Willing Conversation. Priscilla:Uh huh. Ivan:And so it’s about talking to people. Do you remember, Priscilla, when you were a kid how fun magnets were to play with? Priscilla:Yes. Ivan:Yeah, I loved magnets. And depending on which way you turn the magnet, they were either attracted or repelled by one another. And as an adult, we may find ourselves feeling six years old again when we make a phone call to a referral, who turns out to not be a referral at all. And similar to a magnet that’s turned the wrong direction, you’re not being embraced in that conversation, you’re being resisted. So the referral you were given that should have been a warm introduction quickly turns into a cold call. We all want good referrals, people who want to talk to us. We want to give and receive referrals that are willing conversations about the products and services that we have to offer. And to receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. So here are four tips that you can follow that will help you with those willing conversations. The first tip is The Needs Assessment. It’s really your responsibility to be very clear; it’s our responsibility – I’ll talk about it with me as well. It’s our responsibility to be very clear and specific with our referral partners about what constitutes a good referral. And this is a combination of an ideal prospect profile and the problems that we can solve for them. Because it’s not just about what you do, it’s about what solutions you have for the people that you’re working with. It’s about what Andy Bounds calls the AFTERs —what are things going to look like after you’ve worked with them. So, the needs assessment really is an example of you clearly defining your target market. So for a corporate coach, as an example, you might say that a small to medium sized company with fewer than 100 employees, closely held business – family owned business, regional with locations, you know, local in a state or two, and that they as a coach provide themselves on higher than average retention, getting companies to have higher than average retention for employees. And they may be in a competitive industry and as an executive coach, you can help them gain an advantage. So, you know, you want to communicate your target market very clearly to the people in your BNI group. Ivan:You also want to describe your Unique Selling Proposition. So do you have dozens or hundreds of competitors in your marketplace? You probably do. And that means that your unique selling proposition, or USP, is really important because it allows you to stand out among your competition. Your USP is a brief description of the purpose of your business. It’s stated in the most concise and compelling way possible in order to help others understand the unique value of what it is that you do. So your unique selling proposition tells people the type of client you like to work with and the benefits that you can provide for them. And what you want to say is what makes what makes you stand out and why that makes you stand out. What do you do that your competition can’t touch? At the very least, figure out what you do better than your rivals and go beyond simply saying ‘good customer service.’ That’s really part of your unique selling proposition – what it is that you have that your competition doesn’t. The third thing is Why Are You in Business? What’s your passion? Why do you go to work? Unfortunately, one of the most popular answers to the question is ‘to make money.’ That’s the worst answer a business professional can ever give. You’ve got to be able to describe why it is that you do what it is that you do. Why are you in your profession? How do you change lives? You know, that’s what the referral partners in your business group, in your BNI chapter, that’s what they want to know. Remember, passion really is referable. You need to go deep and identify your why if you want to truly connect with people on a personal level. The fourth thing is, what is your Emotionally Charged Connection? Your emotionally charged connection, or ECC, is a phrase leading to a story that your referral partners can recite when referring to you. So for those of you who want to know what my ECC is, what my emotionally charged connection is, go to episode number 451: Why Do You Do What You Do? And in that episode, I shared my emotionally charged connection and why that was so incredibly important to me, and why I do what it is that I do in business. It really stems from that podcast, 451, the experience that I have, from the podcast that I talk about. We all have an ECC, it was something that happened to you, often during childhood, that lays the groundwork for who you are as a person. It can be positive; it can be negative. Many people are not consciously aware of their emotionally charged connection yet, it’s the reason that we get up in the morning and do the things that we do every day. It’s driven by the heart, not by the checkbook, or by the head; there’s a big difference. And I’m going to also include a link in here where you can read about my emotionally charged connection. I did a blog on the same topic and so I’ll have a link here for that blog as well. The bottom line is that the better you become at sharing the information in these tips that I’ve just given you with your BNI group, the more likely you are to feel like the magnet that attracts, instead of the magnet that repels. Your referral partners will be able to give you good referrals that lead to the willing conversation. Well, I have a question for everyone when we’re done here. Priscilla, do you have any thoughts before we wrap up? Priscilla:No, but I haven’t heard this before and I really like what you’re talking about. I don’t remember hearing about the emotionally charged connection. Is that what it is? Ivan:Yeah, well, you were there for me. It was episode number 451. Priscilla:I just made a note. I’m gonna go back and listen to it. Ivan:Go back and listen to it. It was the story — you’ll remember it as soon as I give you a little heads-up. There’s a story about my teacher, Mr. Romero, and asking who wants to be on the student council. Priscilla:Aha, yeah, I remember that. Ivan:Yeah. And that was my emotionally charged connection. Because after that experience, which I’m not going to restate here on this podcast, go back and listen to 451. After that experience with this teacher, who, by the way, changed my life in many ways. After that experience, I realized many years later, that almost every business I’ve ever been drawn to and ever started was about inspiring people or providing people with an opportunity to be their best. And that’s really what BNI is, isn’t it? It’s about giving people an opportunity. You know, you joined BNI, you gotta work. Priscilla:Yeah. Ivan:And I talked about this in the podcast, you know, in 451, it’s not like it was just a gift and I walked away and became successful. It was a gift that I had to work at. It gave me an opportunity, the gift was an opportunity, and that opportunity I had to work really hard at. And from that opportunity, I achieved the level of success in high school. And from that, I realized many, many years later, not at the moment, that that experience led me to try to give other people that experience, to try to give them an opportunity to achieve success. And that’s really what BNI is about. So, go listen to episode 451 everyone. Priscilla:Yeah, I plan to. Ivan:It’s a powerful story. It’s a true story. So for those of you who are listening to this podcast, let me ask you a question. I read all of the questions that get posted here, or comments that get posted here on BNI podcast. My question is, what have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share them here on the BNI podcast. That’s everything I’ve got, Priscilla, over to you. Priscilla:That was great. Thank you so much, Ivan. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Note: This is a rebroadcast of Episode 748, first published on March 9, 2022. Some links and offers may no longer be valid.
Synopsis
To receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral. To do that, you need to make sure they know these four things.
<ol>
<li>The Needs Assessment</li>
<li>Your Unique Selling Proposition</li>
<li>Why Are You in Business?</li>
<li>What’s Your Emotionally Charged Connection?</li>
</ol>
Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2016/04/06/episode-451-why-do-you-do-what-you-do/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 451</a> and read “<a href="https://ivanmisner.com/why-you-do-what-you-do-is-your-key-to-success/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Why You Do What You Do Is Your Key to Success</a>” for more about Emotionally Charged Connections.
What have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share your answers in the comments.

<a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer"></a>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.


Complete Transcript of Episode 748
Priscilla: Hello everybody and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: I am at home in Austin, Texas this week. And, you know, most of our podcasts, almost all of our podcasts, land a post on Wednesday morning. And many of you may not know this, but for the last couple of years, every Wednesday, I have Sam Horn come over in the morning. Sam wrote the book, “POP!” where she mentioned BNI, and that was before I knew Sam. And she also wrote the book, “Someday is Not a Day in the Week.” I talk about Sam and quote her in a number of places. She comes over every Wednesday morning after this podcast goes live. And we do what we call “Writing Wednesday.” But honestly, Priscilla, it’s oftentimes ‘talking’ Wednesday. We talk. We talk a lot about writing, but we talk a lot. And today’s topic is The Willing Conversation.
Priscilla: Uh huh.
Ivan: And so it’s about talking to people. Do you remember, Priscilla, when you were a kid how fun magnets were to play with?
Priscilla: Yes.
Ivan: Yeah, I loved magnets. And depending on which way you turn the magnet, they were either attracted or repelled by one another. And as an adult, we may find ourselves feeling six years old again when we make a phone call to a referral, who turns out to not be a referral at all. And similar to a magnet that’s turned the wrong direction, you’re not being embraced in that conversation, you’re being resisted. So the referral you were given that should have been a warm introduction quickly turns into a cold call.
We all want good referrals, people who want to talk to us. We want to give and receive referrals that are willing conversations about the products and services that we have to offer. And to receive more effective referrals from the members of your BNI group, it’s really important to help them understand your business and your target market enough to identify a good referral.
So here are four tips that you can follow that will help you with those willing conversations. 
The first tip is The Needs Assessment. It’s really your responsibility to be very clear; it’s our responsibility – I’ll talk about it with me as well. It’s our responsibility to be very clear and specific with our referral partners about what constitutes a good referral. And this is a combination of an ideal prospect profile and the problems that we can solve for them. Because it’s not just about what you do, it’s about what solutions you have for the people that you’re working with. It’s about what Andy Bounds calls the AFTERs —what are things going to look like after you’ve worked with them. 
So, the needs assessment really is an example of you clearly defining your target market. So for a corporate coach, as an example, you might say that a small to medium sized company with fewer than 100 employees, closely held business – family owned business, regional with locations, you know, local in a state or two, and that they as a coach provide themselves on higher than average retention, getting companies to have higher than average retention for employees. And they may be in a competitive industry and as an executive coach, you can help them gain an advantage. So, you know, you want to communicate your target market very clearly to the people in your BNI group.
Ivan: You also want to describe your Unique Selling Proposition. So do you have dozens or hundreds of competitors in your marketplace? You probably do. And that means that your unique selling proposition, or USP, is really important because it allows you to stand out among your competition. Your USP is a brief description of the purpose of your business. It’s stated in the most concise and compelling way possible in order to help others understand the unique value of what it is that you do. So your unique selling proposition tells people the type of client you like to work with and the benefits that you can provide for them.
And what you want to say is what makes what makes you stand out and why that makes you stand out. What do you do that your competition can’t touch? At the very least, figure out what you do better than your rivals and go beyond simply saying ‘good customer service.’ That’s really part of your unique selling proposition – what it is that you have that your competition doesn’t.
The third thing is Why Are You in Business? What’s your passion? Why do you go to work? Unfortunately, one of the most popular answers to the question is ‘to make money.’ That’s the worst answer a business professional can ever give. You’ve got to be able to describe why it is that you do what it is that you do. Why are you in your profession? How do you change lives? You know, that’s what the referral partners in your business group, in your BNI chapter, that’s what they want to know. Remember, passion really is referable. You need to go deep and identify your why if you want to truly connect with people on a personal level.
The fourth thing is, what is your Emotionally Charged Connection? Your emotionally charged connection, or ECC, is a phrase leading to a story that your referral partners can recite when referring to you. So for those of you who want to know what my ECC is, what my emotionally charged connection is, go to episode <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2016/04/06/episode-451-why-do-you-do-what-you-do/" rel="noopener noreferrer">number 451: Why Do You Do What You Do?</a> And in that episode, I shared my emotionally charged connection and why that was so incredibly important to me, and why I do what it is that I do in business. It really stems from that podcast, 451, the experience that I have, from the podcast that I talk about.
We all have an ECC, it was something that happened to you, often during childhood, that lays the groundwork for who you are as a person. It can be positive; it can be negative. Many people are not consciously aware of their emotionally charged connection yet, it’s the reason that we get up in the morning and do the things that we do every day. It’s driven by the heart, not by the checkbook, or by the head; there’s a big difference. And I’m going to also include a link in here where you can read about my emotionally charged connection. I did a blog on the same topic and so I’ll have <a href="https://ivanmisner.com/why-you-do-what-you-do-is-your-key-to-success/" rel="noopener noreferrer">a link here for that blog</a> as well. The bottom line is that the better you become at sharing the information in these tips that I’ve just given you with your BNI group, the more likely you are to feel like the magnet that attracts, instead of the magnet that repels. Your referral partners will be able to give you good referrals that lead to the willing conversation.
Well, I have a question for everyone when we’re done here. Priscilla, do you have any thoughts before we wrap up?
Priscilla: No, but I haven’t heard this before and I really like what you’re talking about. I don’t remember hearing about the emotionally charged connection. Is that what it is?
Ivan: Yeah, well, you were there for me. It was episode number 451.
Priscilla: I just made a note. I’m gonna go back and listen to it.
Ivan: Go back and listen to it. It was the story — you’ll remember it as soon as I give you a little heads-up. There’s a story about my teacher, Mr. Romero, and asking who wants to be on the student council.
Priscilla: Aha, yeah, I remember that.
Ivan: Yeah. And that was my emotionally charged connection. Because after that experience, which I’m not going to restate here on this podcast, go back and listen to 451. After that experience with this teacher, who, by the way, changed my life in many ways. After that experience, I realized many years later, that almost every business I’ve ever been drawn to and ever started was about inspiring people or providing people with an opportunity to be their best. And that’s really what BNI is, isn’t it? It’s about giving people an opportunity. You know, you joined BNI, you gotta work.
Priscilla: Yeah.
Ivan: And I talked about this in the podcast, you know, in 451, it’s not like it was just a gift and I walked away and became successful. It was a gift that I had to work at. It gave me an opportunity, the gift was an opportunity, and that opportunity I had to work really hard at. And from that opportunity, I achieved the level of success in high school. And from that, I realized many, many years later, not at the moment, that that experience led me to try to give other people that experience, to try to give them an opportunity to achieve success. And that’s really what BNI is about. So, go listen to episode 451 everyone.
Priscilla: Yeah, I plan to.
Ivan: It’s a powerful story. It’s a true story. So for those of you who are listening to this podcast, let me ask you a question. I read all of the questions that get posted here, or comments that get posted here on BNI podcast. 
My question is, what have you shared with your network that has helped you gain willing conversations with prospective customers? Share them here on the BNI podcast. That’s everything I’ve got, Priscilla, over to you.
Priscilla: That was great. Thank you so much, Ivan. 
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Episode 977: The Willing Conversation (Classic)

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Synopsis</h2>
Persistence becomes stubbornness when you keep trying the exact thing that didn’t work before. Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear. Refine your message, improve your product, test different approaches. 
Learn to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. Pivoting isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. Hold the Vision. Improve the Execution.
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2011/06/29/episode-211-fear-of-rejection/" data-type="post" data-id="697">Episode 211: Fear of Rejection</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2017/05/17/dog-with-a-bone/" data-type="post" data-id="4365">Episode 507: Be a Dog with a Bone</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2026/08/26/episode-975-your-vision-to-success/">Episode 975: Your Vision to Success</a>.</li>
</ul>
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com"><img decoding="async" src="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/misner-audio-ad.jpg" alt="Misner Audio Programs: www.misneraudioprograms.com. Including the Maximize BNI Package, the Your Business Starter Package, and Dr. Misner's Complete Audio Library!" class=""/></a><figcaption>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.</figcaption></figure>
</div>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Complete Transcript of Episode 976</h2>
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: This is like the longest spell I’ve been home in quite a long time. I went to American Airlines’ Admirals Club on my last trip, and the person at the desk said, “Welcome back, Dr. Misner. Your office is right here.” This is the Admirals Lounge, because I’ve been there so many times.
Priscilla: Oh my gosh! Yeah, in the airport, you mean?
Ivan: Yeah, in the airport. That’s right. So I now have 2.6 million miles in American Airlines alone.
Priscilla: What?
Ivan: No joke. 2.6 million.
Priscilla: What are you going to do with all those miles?
Ivan: Well, I don’t have that many left. I’ve used a lot of them, but that’s how many miles I’ve traveled.
Priscilla: Wow.
Ivan: I probably have close to a million actually in the bank, and I use [them] mostly for my kids.
Priscilla: Yeah, it’s good that y they can use them. They must love it.
Ivan: It’s a first world problem, having them.
Priscilla: Yeah, right, right, right, right.
Ivan: All right, we’ve got a fun topic.
Priscilla: Okay, good.
Ivan: The difference between persistence and stubbornness. So one of the questions I get asked a lot is about persistence. Many people know that my first major book, and I’ve talked about it in this podcast, was rejected by 44 publishers. Forty-four publishers, and this is back before the Excel spreadsheet. And I literally had a hand-drawn sheet of paper with the publisher’s name and when I sent it, when it was rejected. I had 44 publishers before the 45th one finally said yes, and that was for my first major book, The World’s Best-Known Marketing Secret. And today, that book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and it’s in its fourth edition. It has been translated into roughly a dozen languages, and yet it was rejected by 44 publishers.
Priscilla: Wow!
Ivan: So the question for me is always the same: When does persistence become stubbornness? And at what point is being a dog with a bone too much? Because I tell people I’m a dog with a bone, but there is a point where you know it can be stubbornness, and you have to have discernment here. So that’s a fair question. And here’s how I look at it: persistence isn’t about refusing to quit; it’s about refusing to quit the right way. Now, when I was rejected 44 times, I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. That’s important. I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. I was learning 44 times. Every rejection taught me something. Sometimes it was about the proposal, the letter that I put on the manuscript. Sometimes it was about the positioning. Sometimes it was about the audience that I wanted to have the book focus on and describe that in a letter. Sometimes it was simply about finding a publisher who truly understood the vision of the book.
Because if you think back into the early ’90s, there were no books written on networking. I wrote the first book… I did the first book ever written on business networking. So a lot of publishers were like, yeah, this is a fad. That’s what I used to get with the media, by the way: “This BNI thing is a fad,” and that’s certainly what I got. It’s now a fad with, at this moment, over 11,820 chapters at this moment. Quite a fad, and it’s a fad that’s lasted 42, almost 42 years.
So, what I’m talking about is, you know, the difference between persistence and stubbornness. Stubbornness says, “I’ll keep doing exactly what I’m doing until someone finally agrees with me.” Persistence says, “I’m committed to the destination, but I’m willing to improve the journey.” Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear.  And I got some difficult feedback in my submissions, and I changed the manuscript over those 44 attempts. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. Those are important. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. It’s not about just stubbornness; it’s about persistence, but a willingness to alter what you’re doing in that persistence. And with every attempt, you become a little bit better than you were before.
Now, let me be clear: you shouldn’t accept every piece of advice you receive. If I had listened to everyone who told me networking was a fad, BNI would have never existed. The trick is learning to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Don’t abandon a great vision because someone doesn’t understand it, but don’t become so emotionally attached to your approach that you refuse to improve it. 
I’ve often said, and I just said in a recent podcast that we did, hold the vision, not the obstacles. That’s really important. Hold the vision, not the obstacles. I believe that was the recent podcast with Tom Fleming, and it’s a quote that I used in many of my books, starting with The 3rd Paradigm — hold the vision, not the obstacles. Obstacles–they’ll always be there. They were there 42 years ago. They’re there today. They’re going to be there 10, 15, 20 years from now. The obstacles may change. The marketplace will change. Technology will most definitely change. People will come and go throughout your life. There were obstacles yesterday, obstacles today. There’ll be obstacles tomorrow.
If you focus on the obstacles, you’ll stop moving. If you hold on to the vision, you’ll find another path. Sometimes the answer isn’t to quit. Sometimes it isn’t even push harder. Sometimes the answer is to pivot, and we’ve certainly seen pivoting a lot with the increase of technology, the internet, AI, other technologies. Certainly, the mobile phone in the 1980s was a pivot point. So a pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. I’m going to repeat that: pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. It means keeping your eyes fixed on where you’re going, while being flexible enough to change how you get there.
So looking back, I’m grateful. I’m actually grateful for those first 44 publishers who said no. They forced me to become a better author. They forced me to create a stronger proposal. They forced me to communicate the value of the book more clearly. I ended up with a publisher that eventually, not with that book, but a couple of books later, made me a New York Times best-selling author. So I found the right publisher who believed in me, and believed in my vision, and he helped make me a New York Times best-selling author. Without those previous rejections, I probably wouldn’t have written a book that has endured for decades. I mean, I wrote that book in 1994, so it has literally endured for decades.
So here’s my rule: persistence isn’t doing the same thing over and over. Persistence is getting better every time you try. If you’re learning, if you’re improving, and you’re adapting, you’re being persistent. If you’re simply repeating yesterday’s mistakes, you’re not being persistent. You’re just being repetitive. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. I want to repeat that. Stay committed to the vision, but stay flexible about the path. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. If the market keeps telling you no, you don’t ignore it. You interpret it. Don’t confuse rejection with direction. Rejection tells you something needs to change. It doesn’t necessarily tell you the dream is wrong. So here’s a new Ivanism for you, Priscilla.
Priscilla: (chuckling)
Ivan: Okay, it’s a variation on Hold the Vision, Not the Obstacles. I say Hold the Vision, Improve the Execution. Hold the vision, improve the execution, and that is a healthy way to be a dog with a bone, and to understand the difference between persistence and stubbornness. That’s my message for today, Priscilla.
Priscilla: Great, I’m impressed that you were able to kind of bounce back after so many disappointments. Do you have anything to say about that?
Ivan: Yeah, there were a lot of disappointments. I mean, every time I got a letter, I was like really excited when it came back. If it came back with a thick envelope, I knew it was a rejection because they didn’t even want to keep the manuscript. They sent it back to me. But you know, when I got the individual letters, I was excited. Is this it? Is this it? And 44 of them, it wasn’t.
And one in particular, a publisher was in Los Angeles. It was a major publisher, and they invited me to their office. And I went there, and they said, “Tell me more. We’ve seen your manuscript. Tell me more about the book.” I told them more about the book. I was really excited, and right there, right then, sitting in that moment, they said, “Yeah, no, we’ll pass.”
Priscilla: Oh, God!
Ivan: And I remember thinking, “I’m never going to be an author.”
Priscilla: You never what?
Ivan: I mean, I thought that for a moment — I’m never going to be an author. This was my, this was my really big chance.
Priscilla: Yeah.
Ivan: And I walked out of that meeting, and I was like, oh heck no! That may not have been the words I used. Might have been, oh bad word, bad word, no, um, no.
This is a good book. People need this information. They need to know how to build their business through referrals, and I’m going to keep going. I’m going to listen to the advice that they gave. One of the bits of the advice they gave was that I had too much of my doctoral dissertation in it, and it was a little too academic. So, okay, that was a fair comment. And so, I pulled some of the academia out of it, redid the manuscript again, and resubmitted it. Actually, ended up resubmitting it just a few more times before I got my first yes.
Priscilla: Mm hmm.
Ivan: Well, I know we’re out of time, Priscilla, but that was a great question. Thanks for asking.
Priscilla: Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for letting us know how you dealt with that. Okay, well, I think that’s it. Thank you so much for the great information.
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" class="ek-link">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis Persistence becomes stubbornness when you keep trying the exact thing that didn’t work before. Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear. Refine your message, improve your product, test different approaches. Learn to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. Pivoting isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. Hold the Vision. Improve the Execution. Links Listen to Episode 211: Fear of Rejection. Listen to Episode 507: Be a Dog with a Bone. Listen to Episode 975: Your Vision to Success. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 976 Priscilla:Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan:This is like the longest spell I’ve been home in quite a long time. I went to American Airlines’ Admirals Club on my last trip, and the person at the desk said, “Welcome back, Dr. Misner. Your office is right here.” This is the Admirals Lounge, because I’ve been there so many times. Priscilla:Oh my gosh! Yeah, in the airport, you mean? Ivan:Yeah, in the airport. That’s right. So I now have 2.6 million miles in American Airlines alone. Priscilla:What? Ivan:No joke. 2.6 million. Priscilla:What are you going to do with all those miles? Ivan:Well, I don’t have that many left. I’ve used a lot of them, but that’s how many miles I’ve traveled. Priscilla:Wow. Ivan:I probably have close to a million actually in the bank, and I use [them] mostly for my kids. Priscilla:Yeah, it’s good that y they can use them. They must love it. Ivan:It’s a first world problem, having them. Priscilla:Yeah, right, right, right, right. Ivan:All right, we’ve got a fun topic. Priscilla:Okay, good. Ivan:The difference between persistence and stubbornness. So one of the questions I get asked a lot is about persistence. Many people know that my first major book, and I’ve talked about it in this podcast, was rejected by 44 publishers. Forty-four publishers, and this is back before the Excel spreadsheet. And I literally had a hand-drawn sheet of paper with the publisher’s name and when I sent it, when it was rejected. I had 44 publishers before the 45th one finally said yes, and that was for my first major book, The World’s Best-Known Marketing Secret. And today, that book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and it’s in its fourth edition. It has been translated into roughly a dozen languages, and yet it was rejected by 44 publishers. Priscilla:Wow! Ivan:So the question for me is always the same: When does persistence become stubbornness? And at what point is being a dog with a bone too much? Because I tell people I’m a dog with a bone, but there is a point where you know it can be stubbornness, and you have to have discernment here. So that’s a fair question. And here’s how I look at it: persistence isn’t about refusing to quit; it’s about refusing to quit the right way. Now, when I was rejected 44 times, I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. That’s important. I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. I was learning 44 times. Every rejection taught me something. Sometimes it was about the proposal, the letter that I put on the manuscript. Sometimes it was about the positioning. Sometimes it was about the audience that I wanted to have the book focus on and describe that in a letter. Sometimes it was simply about finding a publisher who truly understood the vision of the book. Because if you think back into the early ’90s, there were no books written on networking. I wrote the first book… I did the first book ever written on business networking. So a lot of publishers were like, yeah, this is a fad. That’s what I used to get with the media, by the way: “This BNI thing is a fad,” and that’s certainly what I got. It’s now a fad with, at this moment, over 11,820 chapters at this moment. Quite a fad, and it’s a fad that’s lasted 42, almost 42 years. So, what I’m talking about is, you know, the difference between persistence and stubbornness. Stubbornness says, “I’ll keep doing exactly what I’m doing until someone finally agrees with me.” Persistence says, “I’m committed to the destination, but I’m willing to improve the journey.” Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear. And I got some difficult feedback in my submissions, and I changed the manuscript over those 44 attempts. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. Those are important. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. It’s not about just stubbornness; it’s about persistence, but a willingness to alter what you’re doing in that persistence. And with every attempt, you become a little bit better than you were before. Now, let me be clear: you shouldn’t accept every piece of advice you receive. If I had listened to everyone who told me networking was a fad, BNI would have never existed. The trick is learning to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Don’t abandon a great vision because someone doesn’t understand it, but don’t become so emotionally attached to your approach that you refuse to improve it. I’ve often said, and I just said in a recent podcast that we did, hold the vision, not the obstacles. That’s really important. Hold the vision, not the obstacles. I believe that was the recent podcast with Tom Fleming, and it’s a quote that I used in many of my books, starting with The 3rd Paradigm — hold the vision, not the obstacles. Obstacles–they’ll always be there. They were there 42 years ago. They’re there today. They’re going to be there 10, 15, 20 years from now. The obstacles may change. The marketplace will change. Technology will most definitely change. People will come and go throughout your life. There were obstacles yesterday, obstacles today. There’ll be obstacles tomorrow. If you focus on the obstacles, you’ll stop moving. If you hold on to the vision, you’ll find another path. Sometimes the answer isn’t to quit. Sometimes it isn’t even push harder. Sometimes the answer is to pivot, and we’ve certainly seen pivoting a lot with the increase of technology, the internet, AI, other technologies. Certainly, the mobile phone in the 1980s was a pivot point. So a pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. I’m going to repeat that: pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. It means keeping your eyes fixed on where you’re going, while being flexible enough to change how you get there. So looking back, I’m grateful. I’m actually grateful for those first 44 publishers who said no. They forced me to become a better author. They forced me to create a stronger proposal. They forced me to communicate the value of the book more clearly. I ended up with a publisher that eventually, not with that book, but a couple of books later, made me a New York Times best-selling author. So I found the right publisher who believed in me, and believed in my vision, and he helped make me a New York Times best-selling author. Without those previous rejections, I probably wouldn’t have written a book that has endured for decades. I mean, I wrote that book in 1994, so it has literally endured for decades. So here’s my rule: persistence isn’t doing the same thing over and over. Persistence is getting better every time you try. If you’re learning, if you’re improving, and you’re adapting, you’re being persistent. If you’re simply repeating yesterday’s mistakes, you’re not being persistent. You’re just being repetitive. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. I want to repeat that. Stay committed to the vision, but stay flexible about the path. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. If the market keeps telling you no, you don’t ignore it. You interpret it. Don’t confuse rejection with direction. Rejection tells you something needs to change. It doesn’t necessarily tell you the dream is wrong. So here’s a new Ivanism for you, Priscilla. Priscilla: (chuckling) Ivan:Okay, it’s a variation on Hold the Vision, Not the Obstacles. I say Hold the Vision, Improve the Execution. Hold the vision, improve the execution, and that is a healthy way to be a dog with a bone, and to understand the difference between persistence and stubbornness. That’s my message for today, Priscilla. Priscilla:Great, I’m impressed that you were able to kind of bounce back after so many disappointments. Do you have anything to say about that? Ivan:Yeah, there were a lot of disappointments. I mean, every time I got a letter, I was like really excited when it came back. If it came back with a thick envelope, I knew it was a rejection because they didn’t even want to keep the manuscript. They sent it back to me. But you know, when I got the individual letters, I was excited. Is this it? Is this it? And 44 of them, it wasn’t. And one in particular, a publisher was in Los Angeles. It was a major publisher, and they invited me to their office. And I went there, and they said, “Tell me more. We’ve seen your manuscript. Tell me more about the book.” I told them more about the book. I was really excited, and right there, right then, sitting in that moment, they said, “Yeah, no, we’ll pass.” Priscilla:Oh, God! Ivan:And I remember thinking, “I’m never going to be an author.” Priscilla:You never what? Ivan:I mean, I thought that for a moment — I’m never going to be an author. This was my, this was my really big chance. Priscilla:Yeah. Ivan:And I walked out of that meeting, and I was like, oh heck no! That may not have been the words I used. Might have been, oh bad word, bad word, no, um, no. This is a good book. People need this information. They need to know how to build their business through referrals, and I’m going to keep going. I’m going to listen to the advice that they gave. One of the bits of the advice they gave was that I had too much of my doctoral dissertation in it, and it was a little too academic. So, okay, that was a fair comment. And so, I pulled some of the academia out of it, redid the manuscript again, and resubmitted it. Actually, ended up resubmitting it just a few more times before I got my first yes. Priscilla:Mm hmm. Ivan:Well, I know we’re out of time, Priscilla, but that was a great question. Thanks for asking. Priscilla:Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for letting us know how you dealt with that. Okay, well, I think that’s it. Thank you so much for the great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis
Persistence becomes stubbornness when you keep trying the exact thing that didn’t work before. Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear.&nbsp;Refine your message, improve your product, test different approaches. 
Learn to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. Pivoting isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. Hold the Vision. Improve the Execution.
Links
<ul>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2011/06/29/episode-211-fear-of-rejection/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 211: Fear of Rejection</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2017/05/17/dog-with-a-bone/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 507: Be a Dog with a Bone</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2026/08/26/episode-975-your-vision-to-success/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 975: Your Vision to Success</a>.</li>
</ul>

<a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer"></a>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.


Complete Transcript of Episode 976
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: This is like the longest spell I’ve been home in quite a long time. I went to American Airlines’ Admirals Club on my last trip, and the person at the desk said, “Welcome back, Dr. Misner. Your office is right here.” This is the Admirals Lounge, because I’ve been there so many times.
Priscilla: Oh my gosh! Yeah, in the airport, you mean?
Ivan: Yeah, in the airport. That’s right. So I now have 2.6 million miles in American Airlines alone.
Priscilla: What?
Ivan: No joke. 2.6 million.
Priscilla: What are you going to do with all those miles?
Ivan: Well, I don’t have that many left. I’ve used a lot of them, but that’s how many miles I’ve traveled.
Priscilla: Wow.
Ivan: I probably have close to a million actually in the bank, and I use [them] mostly for my kids.
Priscilla: Yeah, it’s good that y they can use them. They must love it.
Ivan: It’s a first world problem, having them.
Priscilla: Yeah, right, right, right, right.
Ivan: All right, we’ve got a fun topic.
Priscilla: Okay, good.
Ivan: The difference between persistence and stubbornness. So one of the questions I get asked a lot is about persistence. Many people know that my first major book, and I’ve talked about it in this podcast, was rejected by 44 publishers. Forty-four publishers, and this is back before the Excel spreadsheet. And I literally had a hand-drawn sheet of paper with the publisher’s name and when I sent it, when it was rejected. I had 44 publishers before the 45th one finally said yes, and that was for my first major book, The World’s Best-Known Marketing Secret. And today, that book has sold hundreds of thousands of copies, and it’s in its fourth edition. It has been translated into roughly a dozen languages, and yet it was rejected by 44 publishers.
Priscilla: Wow!
Ivan: So the question for me is always the same: When does persistence become stubbornness? And at what point is being a dog with a bone too much? Because I tell people I’m a dog with a bone, but there is a point where you know it can be stubbornness, and you have to have discernment here. So that’s a fair question. And here’s how I look at it: persistence isn’t about refusing to quit; it’s about refusing to quit the right way. Now, when I was rejected 44 times, I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. That’s important. I wasn’t doing the same thing 44 times. I was learning 44 times. Every rejection taught me something. Sometimes it was about the proposal, the letter that I put on the manuscript. Sometimes it was about the positioning. Sometimes it was about the audience that I wanted to have the book focus on and describe that in a letter. Sometimes it was simply about finding a publisher who truly understood the vision of the book.
Because if you think back into the early ’90s, there were no books written on networking. I wrote the first book… I did the first book ever written on business networking. So a lot of publishers were like, yeah, this is a fad. That’s what I used to get with the media, by the way: “This BNI thing is a fad,” and that’s certainly what I got. It’s now a fad with, at this moment, over 11,820 chapters at this moment. Quite a fad, and it’s a fad that’s lasted 42, almost 42 years.
So, what I’m talking about is, you know, the difference between persistence and stubbornness. Stubbornness says, “I’ll keep doing exactly what I’m doing until someone finally agrees with me.” Persistence says, “I’m committed to the destination, but I’m willing to improve the journey.” Healthy persistence means you listen to feedback, even when it’s difficult to hear.&nbsp; And I got some difficult feedback in my submissions, and I changed the manuscript over those 44 attempts. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. Those are important. You refine your message, you improve your product, you test different approaches. It’s not about just stubbornness; it’s about persistence, but a willingness to alter what you’re doing in that persistence. And with every attempt, you become a little bit better than you were before.
Now, let me be clear: you shouldn’t accept every piece of advice you receive. If I had listened to everyone who told me networking was a fad, BNI would have never existed. The trick is learning to distinguish between criticism of the vision and criticism of the execution. Don’t abandon a great vision because someone doesn’t understand it, but don’t become so emotionally attached to your approach that you refuse to improve it. 
I’ve often said, and I just said in a recent podcast that we did, hold the vision, not the obstacles. That’s really important. Hold the vision, not the obstacles. I believe that was the recent podcast with Tom Fleming, and it’s a quote that I used in many of my books, starting with The 3rd Paradigm — hold the vision, not the obstacles. Obstacles–they’ll always be there. They were there 42 years ago. They’re there today. They’re going to be there 10, 15, 20 years from now. The obstacles may change. The marketplace will change. Technology will most definitely change. People will come and go throughout your life. There were obstacles yesterday, obstacles today. There’ll be obstacles tomorrow.
If you focus on the obstacles, you’ll stop moving. If you hold on to the vision, you’ll find another path. Sometimes the answer isn’t to quit. Sometimes it isn’t even push harder. Sometimes the answer is to pivot, and we’ve certainly seen pivoting a lot with the increase of technology, the internet, AI, other technologies. Certainly, the mobile phone in the 1980s was a pivot point. So a pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. I’m going to repeat that: pivot isn’t surrender; it’s a strategy. It means keeping your eyes fixed on where you’re going, while being flexible enough to change how you get there.
So looking back, I’m grateful. I’m actually grateful for those first 44 publishers who said no. They forced me to become a better author. They forced me to create a stronger proposal. They forced me to communicate the value of the book more clearly. I ended up with a publisher that eventually, not with that book, but a couple of books later, made me a New York Times best-selling author. So I found the right publisher who believed in me, and believed in my vision, and he helped make me a New York Times best-selling author. Without those previous rejections, I probably wouldn’t have written a book that has endured for decades. I mean, I wrote that book in 1994, so it has literally endured for decades.
So here’s my rule: persistence isn’t doing the same thing over and over. Persistence is getting better every time you try. If you’re learning, if you’re improving, and you’re adapting, you’re being persistent. If you’re simply repeating yesterday’s mistakes, you’re not being persistent. You’re just being repetitive. Stay committed to the vision. Stay flexible about the path. I want to repeat that. Stay committed to the vision, but stay flexible about the path. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. Persistence is believing in your vision enough to improve your execution. If the market keeps telling you no, you don’t ignore it. You interpret it. Don’t confuse rejection with direction. Rejection tells you something needs to change. It doesn’t necessarily tell you the dream is wrong. So here’s a new Ivanism for you, Priscilla.
Priscilla: (chuckling)
Ivan: Okay, it’s a variation on Hold the Vision, Not the Obstacles. I say Hold the Vision, Improve the Execution. Hold the vision, improve the execution, and that is a healthy way to be a dog with a bone, and to understand the difference between persistence and stubbornness. That’s my message for today, Priscilla.
Priscilla: Great, I’m impressed that you were able to kind of bounce back after so many disappointments. Do you have anything to say about that?
Ivan: Yeah, there were a lot of disappointments. I mean, every time I got a letter, I was like really excited when it came back. If it came back with a thick envelope, I knew it was a rejection because they didn’t even want to keep the manuscript. They sent it back to me. But you know, when I got the individual letters, I was excited. Is this it? Is this it? And 44 of them, it wasn’t.
And one in particular, a publisher was in Los Angeles. It was a major publisher, and they invited me to their office. And I went there, and they said, “Tell me more. We’ve seen your manuscript. Tell me more about the book.” I told them more about the book. I was really excited, and right there, right then, sitting in that moment, they said, “Yeah, no, we’ll pass.”
Priscilla: Oh, God!
Ivan: And I remember thinking, “I’m never going to be an author.”
Priscilla: You never what?
Ivan: I mean, I thought that for a moment — I’m never going to be an author. This was my, this was my really big chance.
Priscilla: Yeah.
Ivan: And I walked out of that meeting, and I was like, oh heck no! That may not have been the words I used. Might have been, oh bad word, bad word, no, um, no.
This is a good book. People need this information. They need to know how to build their business through referrals, and I’m going to keep going. I’m going to listen to the advice that they gave. One of the bits of the advice they gave was that I had too much of my doctoral dissertation in it, and it was a little too academic. So, okay, that was a fair comment. And so, I pulled some of the academia out of it, redid the manuscript again, and resubmitted it. Actually, ended up resubmitting it just a few more times before I got my first yes.
Priscilla: Mm hmm.
Ivan: Well, I know we’re out of time, Priscilla, but that was a great question. Thanks for asking.
Priscilla: Oh, yeah. Well, thank you for letting us know how you dealt with that. Okay, well, I think that’s it. Thank you so much for the great information.
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Episode 976: The Difference Between Persistence and Stubbornness

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Synopsis</h2>
Envision yourself standing in a field. About 30 feet away is a 30-foot-high wall. That wall is your vision for your business and your life. Ten feet short of your vision is a wall of obstacles. If you can’t see the vision over the obstacles, you get discouraged and give up. <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-fleming-asentiv/">Tom Fleming</a> joins the podcast to show you how to grow your vision.
<figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><img fetchpriority="high" decoding="async" width="1200" height="1026" src="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Fleming-motivation-model-1200.webp" alt="A man stands before two walls: Obstacles, which is shorter but closer, and Vision, which is taller, but further away. Dotted lines represent the man's line of sight with respect to both obstacles and vision." class="wp-image-10092" srcset="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Fleming-motivation-model-1200.webp 1200w, https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Fleming-motivation-model-1200-300x257.webp 300w, https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Fleming-motivation-model-1200-620x530.webp 620w, https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Fleming-motivation-model-1200-150x128.webp 150w, https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/08/Fleming-motivation-model-1200-768x657.webp 768w" sizes="(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption">Tom Fleming’s model of human motivation</figcaption></figure>
Come to BNI membership with a vision, and hold that vision to overcome any obstacles you encounter. That means engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance, one-to-ones, passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Tom’s high-achieving vision as a BNI member is 
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Three one-to-ones per week</li>
<li>Three referrals per week</li>
<li>Two or three visitors per month.</li>
</ul>
Build a vision for your relationship and your business with every conversation you have in BNI. Try it for six months and see how your results grow with your vision.
<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/podcast-guest/tom-fleming/">Tom Fleming’s other BNI Podcast episodes</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2021/06/16/episode-711-choose-the-lens-you-see-the-world-through/">Episode 711: Choose the Lens You See the World Through</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2016/09/21/episode-475-path-business-leadership/">Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership</a>.</li>
</ul>
<div class="wp-block-image">
<figure class="aligncenter size-full"><a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com"><img decoding="async" src="https://www.bnipodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/misner-audio-ad.jpg" alt="Misner Audio Programs: www.misneraudioprograms.com. Including the Maximize BNI Package, the Your Business Starter Package, and Dr. Misner's Complete Audio Library!" class=""/></a><figcaption>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.</figcaption></figure>
</div>

<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Complete Transcript of Episode 975</h2>
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: Lady Priscilla, it’s wonderful to hear you. Greg Davies from one of the previous podcasts called you Lady Priscilla, I love that. So I might use that moniker every now and then.
Priscilla: (chuckling) Okay.
Ivan: You’re not a big fan, but I might use it. I am in this hot Austin weather. We looked at my swimming pool gauge, and my swimming pool, not heated, is over 90 degrees [F].
Priscilla: Oh.
Ivan: So it’s like a sauna. It’s hot.
Priscilla: You can just turn it into your bathtub.
Ivan: Yeah, pretty much, yeah, absolutely. So I have a guest today, Tom Fleming. Tom has been on my podcast five previous times. Not too many people have been on the podcast five times. That should tell you something about my opinion of Tom’s contributions to the organization. He served in various leadership roles in BNI, including training owners to track more referrals, from 1996 to roughly 2024, and he continues to impact people’s businesses and lives. He’s now the founder of the Vision Institute. Tom works with business owners to craft a vision for their business and their life, which I think is really important. Within this framework, Tom also supports people with creating a financial vision for themselves with an emphasis on retirement planning. So it’s our goal to make a living and create a life, according to Tom. Tom loves supporting people with creating creating that life. Tom is in Nancy Short’s [BNI] region, and she’s lucky to have him as part of her region. Tom, welcome back to BNI Podcast.
Tom: Well, thank you so much, Ivan. And yes, here in Florida, our pool is a little over 90 degrees as well.
Ivan: (chuckling) All right, we’re in the same boat, and/or pool actually.
Priscilla: (chuckling)
Ivan: So we’re going to include a diagram in this podcast so people can see what we’re talking about. Could you explain the diagram that’s in here?
Tom: Absolutely, I’d like the listeners to envision themselves just standing in an open field, and about 30 feet away from them is a 30-foot wall, and that wall represents their vision. Their vision of their business and/or their life, if you will. And about 20 feet out, 10 feet short of your vision, is a wall of obstacles, perceived obstacles, if you will. And for some of us, sometimes those perceived obstacles are higher in effect. Therefore, we can’t even see the accomplishment of our vision, and that obviously makes us feel overwhelmed and maybe even depressed and hopeless. 
But there is a strategy for people in that situation, and the strategy is to decrease their perceived obstacles. And where I shine is in increasing the vision that they have for their business and their life. And I know you have an opinion on this, Ivan.
Ivan: And it’s congruent with yours, I believe.
Tom: And yours is don’t even pay attention to the obstacles?
Ivan: Well, no, no. My perspective on this is: focus on the vision, not the obstacles. The obstacles will always be there. Obstacles were there for BNI in 1985. Obstacles are part of BNI today, obstacles will be around, you know, 20 years from now. So it’s hold the vision.
Tom: Mmm.
Ivan: This is my philosophy: hold the vision, not the obstacles. Work through, around, over, under, whatever. Work through the obstacles and focus on the vision.
Tom: I love it. I love it absolutely. And obviously, people are interested in, “Well, Tom, how does this apply to BNI?”
Ivan: Yeah.
Tom: And I think a lot of members come into BNI with, well, we’ll see what happens.
Ivan: Yeah.
Tom: And my thought is, let’s enter our BNI membership with a vision. I know many people who generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from BNI, and I know you know many people who generate millions of dollars, yen, pesos from BNI on an annual basis. I think we have to hold that vision in our mind to overcome what people perceive as obstacles in BNI. Meaning engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance and one-to-ones and passing referrals, and bringing visitors.
Ivan: No, I agree. What else?
Tom: So really again, it’s about people generating a vision of getting your “twos” or your “threes” on a weekly basis. Investing in three one-to-ones per week, three referrals per week, maybe; two or three visitors per month. Because I think that level of engagement-people being on the field instead of in the stands-that’s when they are going to get results, given the philosophy of Givers Gain.
Ivan: Yeah. Can I just say — you mentioned three one-to-ones in a week? I think that’ll burn people out. I’m not opposed to it, but I want people to understand that networking is a marathon, not a sprint. And I would just be ecstatic if people did four a month. Ecstatic. And the numbers show that four a month will double the number of referrals they both give and receive. The average member listening says, “Three?” Three is a big ask, and I don’t want members to burn themselves out. But look, you ran an incredibly successful region, so we can disagree slightly and still be in the same ballpark.
Tom: Well, I also mentioned getting your twos, which is yes more aggressive than what you’re sharing. My point is… now, I tend to be a little bit of an overachiever.
Ivan: You think? Yes, yes you are, Tom, and that’s a good thing. I wish I had more overachievers like you.
Tom: Got it. But you know when I get engaged in something, I’m going to play full out, and I think if a lot of members who had the type of personality or behavior that I have, I think if they engage at that, in that level, realizing that BNI is part of their marketing plan, it’s not something they just belong to, it’s part of their marketing plan, I think their results would double, triple, quadruple. I might recommend to people: try it out for six months — see how it goes.
Ivan: Okay, and then what?
Tom: Well, I think this model also applies to conversations in BNI. For instance, if I’m meeting with a fellow member, maybe someone who’s in my Contact Sphere, I need to share with them and sell them on the fact that being in a relationship with me is a fantastic investment.
Ivan: Yeah.
Tom:  And we want to build a vision in their mind of what’s possible if we work together. I don’t know if it’s in print anymore, Business by Referral?
Ivan: It’s not, but much of what is in that book is in the fourth edition of The World’s Best Known Marketing Secret.
Tom: Excellent, excellent. That book is a goldmine of networking strategy when it comes to 15 ways others can promote you, which that number may have changed; 18 tactics to motivate your sources. I’m going back to my time — back in the day, if you will. But using those strategies to build a vision in the mind of your referral partners of how you can work together to build visibility, credibility, profitability with each other. Again, I just think it’s a goldmine.
Ivan: Yeah, and that’s where VCP came from, was that book.
Tom: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think bigger picture too. The model just relates to life and business. I think if people have a very small vision of their business, I don’t know what level of engagement they’re willing to put forth towards their business. Versus if we support people with thinking through what’s possible with one’s business, I do believe it…
Ivan: Doesn’t this go back to your original conversation about the obstacles? I think people see the obstacles in front of them, and they lose sight of the vision behind those obstacles.
Tom: Yes.
Ivan: The obstacles they’re always there. I’ve never done anything in business that didn’t have obstacles. And so the key is, like I said earlier, to work around, over, through, under, whatever it takes — hold the vision, not the obstacles. And when you can do that, then you’re going to be successful. I see BNI people that just get caught up in the obstacles, and what happens when they get caught up in the obstacles is that’s all they talk about. And if that’s all they talk about, they become experts at the obstacles…
Tom: Absolutely.
Ivan: …and not experts at the vision. And so, what people have to do — and that’s why I say hold the vision, not the obstacle, because you want to be an expert at the vision. And the more you can get people to focus on the vision that you’ve got, the more successful that you, as an individual, that a chapter is.
Tom: I think your wisdom that you just shared is just kind of a great way to wrap this conversation up.
Ivan: Yep, I agree. Is there anything you’d add? I love your graphic. I’ll make sure it gets put into the podcast. You’ve been a great participant in the BNI program for many, many years, and I appreciate everything that you have contributed over the years. Any last thought?
Tom: No, just other than thank you for allowing me to continue to contribute via this platform. Whenever I have something that I feel will give members an opportunity to think through a different model or a strategy, I’m happy to contribute and I thank you.
Ivan: My pleasure. Your Vision to Success, Tom Fleming. Tom, thanks for being on. Over to you, Priscilla.
Priscilla: Okay, thank you both. That’s great information. 
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" class="ek-link">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis Envision yourself standing in a field. About 30 feet away is a 30-foot-high wall. That wall is your vision for your business and your life. Ten feet short of your vision is a wall of obstacles. If you can’t see the vision over the obstacles, you get discouraged and give up. Tom Fleming joins the podcast to show you how to grow your vision. Tom Fleming’s model of human motivation Come to BNI membership with a vision, and hold that vision to overcome any obstacles you encounter. That means engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance, one-to-ones, passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Tom’s high-achieving vision as a BNI member is Three one-to-ones per week Three referrals per week Two or three visitors per month. Build a vision for your relationship and your business with every conversation you have in BNI. Try it for six months and see how your results grow with your vision. Links Listen to Tom Fleming’s other BNI Podcast episodes. Listen to Episode 711: Choose the Lens You See the World Through. Listen to Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership. The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs. Complete Transcript of Episode 975 Priscilla:Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you? Ivan:Lady Priscilla, it’s wonderful to hear you. Greg Davies from one of the previous podcasts called you Lady Priscilla, I love that. So I might use that moniker every now and then. Priscilla: (chuckling)Okay. Ivan:You’re not a big fan, but I might use it. I am in this hot Austin weather. We looked at my swimming pool gauge, and my swimming pool, not heated, is over 90 degrees [F]. Priscilla:Oh. Ivan:So it’s like a sauna. It’s hot. Priscilla:You can just turn it into your bathtub. Ivan:Yeah, pretty much, yeah, absolutely. So I have a guest today, Tom Fleming. Tom has been on my podcast five previous times. Not too many people have been on the podcast five times. That should tell you something about my opinion of Tom’s contributions to the organization. He served in various leadership roles in BNI, including training owners to track more referrals, from 1996 to roughly 2024, and he continues to impact people’s businesses and lives. He’s now the founder of the Vision Institute. Tom works with business owners to craft a vision for their business and their life, which I think is really important. Within this framework, Tom also supports people with creating a financial vision for themselves with an emphasis on retirement planning. So it’s our goal to make a living and create a life, according to Tom. Tom loves supporting people with creating creating that life. Tom is in Nancy Short’s [BNI] region, and she’s lucky to have him as part of her region. Tom, welcome back to BNI Podcast. Tom:Well, thank you so much, Ivan. And yes, here in Florida, our pool is a little over 90 degrees as well. Ivan: (chuckling)All right, we’re in the same boat, and/or pool actually. Priscilla: (chuckling) Ivan:So we’re going to include a diagram in this podcast so people can see what we’re talking about. Could you explain the diagram that’s in here? Tom: Absolutely, I’d like the listeners to envision themselves just standing in an open field, and about 30 feet away from them is a 30-foot wall, and that wall represents their vision. Their vision of their business and/or their life, if you will. And about 20 feet out, 10 feet short of your vision, is a wall of obstacles, perceived obstacles, if you will. And for some of us, sometimes those perceived obstacles are higher in effect. Therefore, we can’t even see the accomplishment of our vision, and that obviously makes us feel overwhelmed and maybe even depressed and hopeless. But there is a strategy for people in that situation, and the strategy is to decrease their perceived obstacles. And where I shine is in increasing the vision that they have for their business and their life. And I know you have an opinion on this, Ivan. Ivan:And it’s congruent with yours, I believe. Tom:And yours is don’t even pay attention to the obstacles? Ivan:Well, no, no. My perspective on this is: focus on the vision, not the obstacles. The obstacles will always be there. Obstacles were there for BNI in 1985. Obstacles are part of BNI today, obstacles will be around, you know, 20 years from now. So it’s hold the vision. Tom:Mmm. Ivan:This is my philosophy: hold the vision, not the obstacles. Work through, around, over, under, whatever. Work through the obstacles and focus on the vision. Tom:I love it. I love it absolutely. And obviously, people are interested in, “Well, Tom, how does this apply to BNI?” Ivan:Yeah. Tom:And I think a lot of members come into BNI with, well, we’ll see what happens. Ivan:Yeah. Tom:And my thought is, let’s enter our BNI membership with a vision. I know many people who generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from BNI, and I know you know many people who generate millions of dollars, yen, pesos from BNI on an annual basis. I think we have to hold that vision in our mind to overcome what people perceive as obstacles in BNI. Meaning engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance and one-to-ones and passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Ivan:No, I agree. What else? Tom:So really again, it’s about people generating a vision of getting your “twos” or your “threes” on a weekly basis. Investing in three one-to-ones per week, three referrals per week, maybe; two or three visitors per month. Because I think that level of engagement-people being on the field instead of in the stands-that’s when they are going to get results, given the philosophy of Givers Gain. Ivan:Yeah. Can I just say — you mentioned three one-to-ones in a week? I think that’ll burn people out. I’m not opposed to it, but I want people to understand that networking is a marathon, not a sprint. And I would just be ecstatic if people did four a month. Ecstatic. And the numbers show that four a month will double the number of referrals they both give and receive. The average member listening says, “Three?” Three is a big ask, and I don’t want members to burn themselves out. But look, you ran an incredibly successful region, so we can disagree slightly and still be in the same ballpark. Tom:Well, I also mentioned getting your twos, which is yes more aggressive than what you’re sharing. My point is… now, I tend to be a little bit of an overachiever. Ivan:You think? Yes, yes you are, Tom, and that’s a good thing. I wish I had more overachievers like you. Tom:Got it. But you know when I get engaged in something, I’m going to play full out, and I think if a lot of members who had the type of personality or behavior that I have, I think if they engage at that, in that level, realizing that BNI is part of their marketing plan, it’s not something they just belong to, it’s part of their marketing plan, I think their results would double, triple, quadruple. I might recommend to people: try it out for six months — see how it goes. Ivan:Okay, and then what? Tom:Well, I think this model also applies to conversations in BNI. For instance, if I’m meeting with a fellow member, maybe someone who’s in my Contact Sphere, I need to share with them and sell them on the fact that being in a relationship with me is a fantastic investment. Ivan:Yeah. Tom: And we want to build a vision in their mind of what’s possible if we work together. I don’t know if it’s in print anymore, Business by Referral? Ivan:It’s not, but much of what is in that book is in the fourth edition of The World’s Best Known Marketing Secret. Tom:Excellent, excellent. That book is a goldmine of networking strategy when it comes to 15 ways others can promote you, which that number may have changed; 18 tactics to motivate your sources. I’m going back to my time — back in the day, if you will. But using those strategies to build a vision in the mind of your referral partners of how you can work together to build visibility, credibility, profitability with each other. Again, I just think it’s a goldmine. Ivan:Yeah, and that’s where VCP came from, was that book. Tom:Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think bigger picture too. The model just relates to life and business. I think if people have a very small vision of their business, I don’t know what level of engagement they’re willing to put forth towards their business. Versus if we support people with thinking through what’s possible with one’s business, I do believe it… Ivan:Doesn’t this go back to your original conversation about the obstacles? I think people see the obstacles in front of them, and they lose sight of the vision behind those obstacles. Tom:Yes. Ivan:The obstacles they’re always there. I’ve never done anything in business that didn’t have obstacles. And so the key is, like I said earlier, to work around, over, through, under, whatever it takes — hold the vision, not the obstacles. And when you can do that, then you’re going to be successful. I see BNI people that just get caught up in the obstacles, and what happens when they get caught up in the obstacles is that’s all they talk about. And if that’s all they talk about, they become experts at the obstacles… Tom:Absolutely. Ivan:…and not experts at the vision. And so, what people have to do — and that’s why I say hold the vision, not the obstacle, because you want to be an expert at the vision. And the more you can get people to focus on the vision that you’ve got, the more successful that you, as an individual, that a chapter is. Tom:I think your wisdom that you just shared is just kind of a great way to wrap this conversation up. Ivan:Yep, I agree. Is there anything you’d add? I love your graphic. I’ll make sure it gets put into the podcast. You’ve been a great participant in the BNI program for many, many years, and I appreciate everything that you have contributed over the years. Any last thought? Tom:No, just other than thank you for allowing me to continue to contribute via this platform. Whenever I have something that I feel will give members an opportunity to think through a different model or a strategy, I’m happy to contribute and I thank you. Ivan:My pleasure. Your Vision to Success, Tom Fleming. Tom, thanks for being on. Over to you, Priscilla. Priscilla:Okay, thank you both. That’s great information. This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation. Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis
Envision yourself standing in a field. About 30 feet away is a 30-foot-high wall. That wall is your vision for your business and your life. Ten feet short of your vision is a wall of obstacles. If you can’t see the vision over the obstacles, you get discouraged and give up. <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-fleming-asentiv/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Tom Fleming</a> joins the podcast to show you how to grow your vision.
Tom Fleming’s model of human motivation
Come to BNI membership with a vision, and hold that vision to overcome any obstacles you encounter. That means engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance, one-to-ones, passing referrals, and bringing visitors. Tom’s high-achieving vision as a BNI member is 
<ul>
<li>Three one-to-ones per week</li>
<li>Three referrals per week</li>
<li>Two or three visitors per month.</li>
</ul>
Build a vision for your relationship and your business with every conversation you have in BNI. Try it for six months and see how your results grow with your vision.
Links
<ul>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/podcast-guest/tom-fleming/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Tom Fleming’s other BNI Podcast episodes</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2021/06/16/episode-711-choose-the-lens-you-see-the-world-through/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 711: Choose the Lens You See the World Through</a>.</li>
<li>Listen to <a href="https://www.bnipodcast.com/2016/09/21/episode-475-path-business-leadership/" rel="noopener noreferrer">Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership</a>.</li>
</ul>

<a href="https://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer"></a>The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.


Complete Transcript of Episode 975
Priscilla: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?
Ivan: Lady Priscilla, it’s wonderful to hear you. Greg Davies from one of the previous podcasts called you Lady Priscilla, I love that. So I might use that moniker every now and then.
Priscilla: (chuckling) Okay.
Ivan: You’re not a big fan, but I might use it. I am in this hot Austin weather. We looked at my swimming pool gauge, and my swimming pool, not heated, is over 90 degrees [F].
Priscilla: Oh.
Ivan: So it’s like a sauna. It’s hot.
Priscilla: You can just turn it into your bathtub.
Ivan: Yeah, pretty much, yeah, absolutely. So I have a guest today, Tom Fleming. Tom has been on my podcast five previous times. Not too many people have been on the podcast five times. That should tell you something about my opinion of Tom’s contributions to the organization. He served in various leadership roles in BNI, including training owners to track more referrals, from 1996 to roughly 2024, and he continues to impact people’s businesses and lives. He’s now the founder of the Vision Institute. Tom works with business owners to craft a vision for their business and their life, which I think is really important. Within this framework, Tom also supports people with creating a financial vision for themselves with an emphasis on retirement planning. So it’s our goal to make a living and create a life, according to Tom. Tom loves supporting people with creating creating that life. Tom is in Nancy Short’s [BNI] region, and she’s lucky to have him as part of her region. Tom, welcome back to BNI Podcast.
Tom: Well, thank you so much, Ivan. And yes, here in Florida, our pool is a little over 90 degrees as well.
Ivan: (chuckling) All right, we’re in the same boat, and/or pool actually.
Priscilla: (chuckling)
Ivan: So we’re going to include a diagram in this podcast so people can see what we’re talking about. Could you explain the diagram that’s in here?
Tom: Absolutely, I’d like the listeners to envision themselves just standing in an open field, and about 30 feet away from them is a 30-foot wall, and that wall represents their vision. Their vision of their business and/or their life, if you will. And about 20 feet out, 10 feet short of your vision, is a wall of obstacles, perceived obstacles, if you will. And for some of us, sometimes those perceived obstacles are higher in effect. Therefore, we can’t even see the accomplishment of our vision, and that obviously makes us feel overwhelmed and maybe even depressed and hopeless. 
But there is a strategy for people in that situation, and the strategy is to decrease their perceived obstacles. And where I shine is in increasing the vision that they have for their business and their life. And I know you have an opinion on this, Ivan.
Ivan: And it’s congruent with yours, I believe.
Tom: And yours is don’t even pay attention to the obstacles?
Ivan: Well, no, no. My perspective on this is: focus on the vision, not the obstacles. The obstacles will always be there. Obstacles were there for BNI in 1985. Obstacles are part of BNI today, obstacles will be around, you know, 20 years from now. So it’s hold the vision.
Tom: Mmm.
Ivan: This is my philosophy: hold the vision, not the obstacles. Work through, around, over, under, whatever. Work through the obstacles and focus on the vision.
Tom: I love it. I love it absolutely. And obviously, people are interested in, “Well, Tom, how does this apply to BNI?”
Ivan: Yeah.
Tom: And I think a lot of members come into BNI with, well, we’ll see what happens.
Ivan: Yeah.
Tom: And my thought is, let’s enter our BNI membership with a vision. I know many people who generate hundreds of thousands of dollars in business from BNI, and I know you know many people who generate millions of dollars, yen, pesos from BNI on an annual basis. I think we have to hold that vision in our mind to overcome what people perceive as obstacles in BNI. Meaning engaging in all-out effort with respect to attendance and one-to-ones and passing referrals, and bringing visitors.
Ivan: No, I agree. What else?
Tom: So really again, it’s about people generating a vision of getting your “twos” or your “threes” on a weekly basis. Investing in three one-to-ones per week, three referrals per week, maybe; two or three visitors per month. Because I think that level of engagement-people being on the field instead of in the stands-that’s when they are going to get results, given the philosophy of Givers Gain.
Ivan: Yeah. Can I just say — you mentioned three one-to-ones in a week? I think that’ll burn people out. I’m not opposed to it, but I want people to understand that networking is a marathon, not a sprint. And I would just be ecstatic if people did four a month. Ecstatic. And the numbers show that four a month will double the number of referrals they both give and receive. The average member listening says, “Three?” Three is a big ask, and I don’t want members to burn themselves out. But look, you ran an incredibly successful region, so we can disagree slightly and still be in the same ballpark.
Tom: Well, I also mentioned getting your twos, which is yes more aggressive than what you’re sharing. My point is… now, I tend to be a little bit of an overachiever.
Ivan: You think? Yes, yes you are, Tom, and that’s a good thing. I wish I had more overachievers like you.
Tom: Got it. But you know when I get engaged in something, I’m going to play full out, and I think if a lot of members who had the type of personality or behavior that I have, I think if they engage at that, in that level, realizing that BNI is part of their marketing plan, it’s not something they just belong to, it’s part of their marketing plan, I think their results would double, triple, quadruple. I might recommend to people: try it out for six months — see how it goes.
Ivan: Okay, and then what?
Tom: Well, I think this model also applies to conversations in BNI. For instance, if I’m meeting with a fellow member, maybe someone who’s in my Contact Sphere, I need to share with them and sell them on the fact that being in a relationship with me is a fantastic investment.
Ivan: Yeah.
Tom:&nbsp; And we want to build a vision in their mind of what’s possible if we work together. I don’t know if it’s in print anymore, Business by Referral?
Ivan: It’s not, but much of what is in that book is in the fourth edition of The World’s Best Known Marketing Secret.
Tom: Excellent, excellent. That book is a goldmine of networking strategy when it comes to 15 ways others can promote you, which that number may have changed; 18 tactics to motivate your sources. I’m going back to my time — back in the day, if you will. But using those strategies to build a vision in the mind of your referral partners of how you can work together to build visibility, credibility, profitability with each other. Again, I just think it’s a goldmine.
Ivan: Yeah, and that’s where VCP came from, was that book.
Tom: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I think bigger picture too. The model just relates to life and business. I think if people have a very small vision of their business, I don’t know what level of engagement they’re willing to put forth towards their business. Versus if we support people with thinking through what’s possible with one’s business, I do believe it…
Ivan: Doesn’t this go back to your original conversation about the obstacles? I think people see the obstacles in front of them, and they lose sight of the vision behind those obstacles.
Tom: Yes.
Ivan: The obstacles they’re always there. I’ve never done anything in business that didn’t have obstacles. And so the key is, like I said earlier, to work around, over, through, under, whatever it takes — hold the vision, not the obstacles. And when you can do that, then you’re going to be successful. I see BNI people that just get caught up in the obstacles, and what happens when they get caught up in the obstacles is that’s all they talk about. And if that’s all they talk about, they become experts at the obstacles…
Tom: Absolutely.
Ivan: …and not experts at the vision. And so, what people have to do — and that’s why I say hold the vision, not the obstacle, because you want to be an expert at the vision. And the more you can get people to focus on the vision that you’ve got, the more successful that you, as an individual, that a chapter is.
Tom: I think your wisdom that you just shared is just kind of a great way to wrap this conversation up.
Ivan: Yep, I agree. Is there anything you’d add? I love your graphic. I’ll make sure it gets put into the podcast. You’ve been a great participant in the BNI program for many, many years, and I appreciate everything that you have contributed over the years. Any last thought?
Tom: No, just other than thank you for allowing me to continue to contribute via this platform. Whenever I have something that I feel will give members an opportunity to think through a different model or a strategy, I’m happy to contribute and I thank you.
Ivan: My pleasure. Your Vision to Success, Tom Fleming. Tom, thanks for being on. Over to you, Priscilla.
Priscilla: Okay, thank you both. That’s great information. 
This podcast is sponsored by <a href="http://www.misneraudioprograms.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">www.misneraudioprograms.com</a>. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.
Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Episode 975: Your Vision to Success

Identifying the most essential things to connect business goals to activities in BNI results in more lucrative and successful memberships.

Episode 971: What Is Essential to New Members?

Kip Kint believes anyone who runs a successful lifestyle business can scale it into a legacy business that doesn't depend on its founder.

Episode 970: Sailing or Scaling?

Culture is the shadow we cast as leaders. Behavior, Priorities, and Relationships set the tone for your business.

Episode 969: The Shadow We Cast as Leaders

Your BNI chapter was never meant to be your sales force. They're your connection team., They identify opportunities and transfer credibility.

Episode 968: Your Connection Team

The best legacy we can leave is to make a difference in the lives of the people around us, and you don't have to be a billionaire to do that.

Episode 967: Richard Branson on Legacy (Classic)

The true test of leadership is how sustainable your organization becomes. Significance is about helping people thrive beyond you.

Episode 966: Living Your Succession Plan

Networking is not a get-rich-quick strategy. It takes time, but staying committed, consistent, and focused yields invaluable rewards.

Episode 965: Delay Success or Accelerate Failure

Spencer Reynolds explains his Seek, Serve, Set up approach to making the most out of the Open Networking portion of a BNI meeting.

Episode 964: Open Networking, the Most Undervalued Time

Whether you're managing a BNI chapter or negotiating with a client, "Feel, Felt, Found" helps you win by aligning.

Episode 963: The Power of “Feel, Felt, Found”

Shirley Towne returns to the podcast to explain why some visitors hesitate to join BNI and how to address their concerns.

Episode 962: Time and Money (Classic)

Referral marketing tips from Dr. Ivan Misner, Founder and Chief Visionary Officer of BNI

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