In this episode of The Pivot, Andrew talks with Kelsey McGinnis—a musicologist, educator, and writer/editor for Christianity Today—about embracing life’s detours and letting go of the pressure to be perfect. Kelsey shares how she found her unexpected career by following her heart when her original plans fell apart, and how becoming a parent taught her to hold her goals loosely. She and Andrew dive into the messy reality of having multiple creative interests, exploring whether it’s better to focus on one thing or dabble in many, regardless of how others try to put you in a box. Finally, they discuss how to honestly critique parts of evangelical culture while keeping your faith and creativity intact, and the freedom that comes with choosing moderation over extremes.

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“There were a number of years of just kind of, Well, whatever happens happens. And then after undergrad, things kind of went off the rails. I developed a pretty severe eating disorder. And in the process of my life blowing up, I decided, I am gonna go to grad school. I had no grand plan with all of this, I just knew this was something I loved to do.” - Kelsey McGinnis

“I needed to be doing something that I loved that was helping take up more space in my brain than an eating disorder. Doing a PhD did it.” - Kelsey McGinnis 

“I started getting more of a vision for what a career could look like, got married, had kids, and that messes things up in all kinds of ways and makes you hold all your plans really loosely.” - Kelsey McGinnis

“I was a little blindsided by how much I liked being a mom. I had not spent a lot of time thinking about what it would be like to be a parent. That experience as a graduate student sort of forced me to say, ‘I love what I’m doing, I would do this for the rest of my life, but I also love being a mom. So if there’s no way for me to do these things at the same time, that’s okay.’” - Kelsey McGinnis

“When I read Christian parenting books, the framework that is used for everything is that any form of child resistance to what a parent wants to do is sin and rebellion. And I just remember thinking, I don’t think my one year old is manipulating me.” - Kelsey McGinnis 

“I keep learning that when I try to do something that’s not in the lane that other people think I’m in, that nobody knows what to do with that. There are a bunch of things I would have done differently in my career—I could have made the same art, made the projects differently—had I had a better understanding of how people view me.” - Andrew Osenga

“I kept hopping between things, and there came to be a point where having a bit of skill in all those things became its own skill. And I’m just now starting to step into cases where the fact that I can do six things puts me in a different category than the guy who can do one thing really well.” - Andrew Osenga

“Writing, for me, is a constant self-examination and self-questioning. I send things off to my editors with so many apologies.” - Kelsey McGinnis

“If you have no other life, no other set of knowledge, you actually are kind of crippled. We are not meant to be siloed creatures, even in areas where you need to be an expert. Like, I don’t want a surgeon who’s not done their 10,000 hours, but you also want a surgeon who’s had a life outside that. I think that’s really helpful.” - Andrew Osenga 

“Christian women get all kinds of mixed messages about what our bodies are for, what our value is, what we’re supposed to be doing in our relationships and in our families. And so I’ve been looking at the different ways that faith language gets used to convince people that they need to do this or that with their body.” - Kelsey McGinnis

“We’re really bad at moderation, humans in general. Everyone wants to do a cold plunge or eat a thousand grams of protein. Nothing is moderate, nothing is measured. I will stand by that diet culture as a phenomenon is destructive. But I can’t turn around and tell people their bodies don’t matter.” - Kelsey McGinnis

“I want to spend a lot of time around quietly faithful people, actually be one of those quietly faithful people and take that version of lived faith more seriously than what I see online.” - Kelsey McGinnis

“One trend of the past fifteen years that I find troubling is the discomfort with imperfection or roughness in any way. We want everything to be so smooth, so seamless. That’s my number one advice right now for people who are looking to engage with art, a sacred thing is being present for the creativity of another person and entering in if you can.” - Kelsey McGinnis

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Christianity Today

Belmont University

“Good News” feat. Andrew Osenga and Josh Wilson

Brandon Lake

The Myth of Good Christian Parenting by Marissa Franks Burt and Kelsey McGinnis

Rolling Stone

Shane Claiborne

HM Magazine

University of Iowa

Campus Crusade for Christ (Cru)

AmeriCorps

Rick Warren

Dr. Oz

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Kelsey McGinnis’ website

Kelsey McGinnis’ Facebook

Kelsey McGinnis’ Instagram

Kelsey McGinnis’ X

Kelsey McGinnis’ YouTube

Kelsey McGinnis’ Substack

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Miracles! Cancer! Kelly Clarkson! Floods! Family! Oh yeah, and a book, too! On this episode of The Pivot, we’re joined by married couple Jason (Kelly Clarkson’s music director and former member of Sonicflood) and Rhonda Halbert, who have been through way more than their fair share of trauma—including shifting careers, three separate cancer diagnoses, a destroyed home, and loss after loss—and how they have used their creative outlets to process their experiences. They share what happens when you learn to let go and why it’s okay to ask big questions as you wade through complicated feelings. 

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“Jason and Rhonda have been through trauma after trauma after trauma and yet when you talk to them, they are just so full of life and joy.” - Andrew Osenga

“The touring industry is not made for families, so we found ourselves maybe four years into our marriage having completely grown apart. And Rhonda was going to leave, she was done.” - Jason Halbert

“It’s a consistent theme for us: go passionately into something and then it fails spectacularly. You can believe with all your heart either God has led you or you’re following something you feel is right, and then it falls apart and you’re like, Where did I mess up?” - Jason Halbert

“[I did not want to] make money off the church, and I can trace those steps all the way to Kelly Clarkson and now a 22-year career with her, which is unheard of. None of this would’ve happened if we had fought to hold onto Sonicflood, all that came from letting go of it.” - Jason Halbert

“You would think that having experienced your precious thing and letting go of it, you’d think; Wow, look what came out of that… you would think as humans, we would get good at doing that. But every single time that happens, it’s like the first time it’s ever happened.” - Jason Halbert

“Sometimes, hanging on to something too long chokes the life out of you, and that’s why you have to learn to let go.” - Rhonda Halbert

“Miracles happen in multiple ways, we just have to be willing to see them and we have to be willing to walk through the hard journey to get to the other side, whatever that looks like.” - Rhonda Halbert

“You have to hang on to whatever God is saying, doing, promising, giving. You’ve got to pursue Him in the hardest, longest, depleting of your life journey to get to the end, because it’s on the other side where you start to say, ‘God is moving and God is doing something miraculous.’” - Rhonda Halbert

“Human nature is just to come back around to doubt, it’s just how we’re wired. I hit rock bottom, there were a few days when I woke up and I was so angry at God that I was like, ‘Why’d you have to wake me up today?’” - Rhonda Halbert

“We’re still in the thick of our trauma. We’re not completely out. We didn’t come out of the story going, ‘See, you can do it too!’ We’re in the middle of it and we’re still struggling, but we’re working it out as we’re continuing to walk forward.” - Rhonda Halbert

“Our faith is stronger than ever, but the questions we’re asking about it are bigger than ever. Everything’s layered and threaded.” - Jason Halbert

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Kelly Clarkson

DC Talk

Sonicflood

Brownsville Revival

Caretaker by Jason & Rhonda Halbert

Lost 

Amy Grant

Belmont University

Sparrow Records

Steven Curtis Chapman

Twila Paris

True Artist Management 

Michael W. Smith

Backstreet Boys

Blessed Be Your Name by Matt Redman

Here I Am to Worship by Tim Hughes

Vanderbilt Children’s Hospital

Justin Guarini

American Idol

Stage Wives organization 

Dave Ramsey

The Kelly Clarkson Show 

Tiger King

Colbie Calliat

The Chosen 

Nashville

Outer Banks

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Jason & Rhonda’s website

Jason & Rhonda’s Facebook

Jason’s Instagram

Jason’s X

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Fred Bahnson is a writer, essayist, and ordained minister whose work explores the intersection of faith, nature, and community. In this profound and far-ranging conversation, Fred and Andrew discuss the adventurous spirit of Thomas Merton, wrestling with the notion of original sin, and finding an “embodied experience” of faith rooted in the natural world. Fred shares how his work—from his book Soil and Sacrament to his recent films and essays for Emergence Magazine—is an effort to present a vision of Christian faith that challenges common stereotypes, focusing instead on the larger story of what God is doing and how we live as people of faith.

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“[Thomas Merton] had this real adventuresome spirit that I really resonate with. And that’s very much how I conceive of my own faith journey, is it’s this unfolding adventure.” - Fred Bahnson

“So much of what you’re wrestling with are things that I’m wrestling with. Even deep, theological ideas of, What is your faith?” - Andrew Osenga

“The theology that I grew up with, at least as I received it, was all about original sin and sort of, ‘You are stained to the core. You are rotten to the core of your being.’ And it never really resonated, it just didn’t ring true to me. I knew I was sinful, but I kept thinking, If we’re created in the image of God, how can that be true that we’re also rotten to the core?” - Fred Bahnson

“I think [boarding school] was where I had an early imitation of God’s presence, that sense of, Okay, I’m on my own. I had to learn how to become self-sufficient and a lot of that was learning to pray, just kind of crying out in pain to God and feeling the love come back at me.” - Fred Bahnson

“I didn’t have this ‘calling’ to be a pastor, it was more just wanting to understand this faith that had shaped me and that I sort of couldn’t get away from.” - Fred Bahnson

“I learned about other faith communities who were starting farms and growing their own food and reconnecting with the land, but in a very faith-focused way. And I was really fascinated by that whole growing movement.” - Fred Bahnson

“This is where language doesn’t really get at our experience. I’ve sought all my life to get beyond the isms and get to the pure drop, the direct experience. That’s a lot of what I do as a writer, just place the reader there with me in the moment. To me, that is so much more powerful than ideas or argument or diatribe.” - Fred Bahnson 

“We’re nature looking back at itself. The environment is constantly moving in and out of us. We are nature and there’s no dividing line.” - Fred Bahnson

“The faith I’m drawn to is very much an embodied experience. You’re doing things, you’re smelling things, you’re watching and hearing and all of your senses are engaged. I think that’s the faith we need if we’re going to have any chance of surviving.” - Fred Bahnson

“It’s a writerly urge to use your own story as a window through which the reader can look onto some larger vista behind. Ultimately, you want to be the clear pane of glass that the reader looks through. You’re not. You’re not the final destination of the reader’s gaze. If at the end of the day, the story is just about what happened to Fred Bahnson, then I failed. It’s about the larger story you’re trying to tell.” - Fred Bahnson 

“I want to present a vision of the faith that maybe challenges some stereotypes of what a Christian is. For me, that larger story is almost always about what God is doing in our lives and how we live as people of faith.” - Fred Bahnson 

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Thomas Merton

“On the Road with Thomas Merton” by Fred Bahnson, film by Jeremy Siefert

Wilbur Awards

The Live You Save May Be Your Own by Paul Elie

The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton

Boris Pasternak

James Baldwin 

Monastery of Christ in the Desert 

Redwoods Monastery 

Annie Dillard

City Lights Bookstore (San Francisco)

Laurence Ferlinghetti

Emergence Magazine 

Jeremy Siefert

Montana State University 

Duke Divinity School 

Wendell Berry 

Sex, Economy, Freedom, and Community by Wendell Berry

Soil and Sacrament by Fred Bahnson

Anathoth Community Garden (North Carolina) 

Orion Magazine 

Michael Pollan

W.K. Kellogg Foundation 

Wake Forest University School of Divinity

Hannah Coulter by Wendell Berry

Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry

Barry Lopez

The Wisdom of the Desert by Thomas Merton 

The Art of Prayer: An Orthodox Anthology compiled by Igumen Chariton of Valamo 

“Guardians of Memory” by Fred Bahnson (Harper’s Magazine) 

The Forest Beyond film by Jeremy Siefert and Fred Bahnson

The Church Forests of Ethiopia film by Jeremy Siefert 

Thoughts In Solitude by Thomas Merton 

Seeds of Contemplation by Thomas Merton 

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Fred Bahnson’s website

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this week’s episode, we sit down with Matt Markins, president and COO of Awana, a global organization dedicated to guiding children toward a meaningful life through mentorship and community partnership. Matt shares the poignant childhood experiences—including the day his father left—that set him on a path defined by the powerful influence of caring mentors. He discusses how those early connections shaped his deep-seated passion for helping kids discover lasting values and a strong inner compass. Matt offers practical ways for adults to foster deep, meaningful connections with the next generation, underscoring the critical role of intentional presence and open dialogue in a world where anxiety and isolation feel increasingly universal. He shares his vision for a global community built on shared positive principles, where compassionate guidance helps young people navigate the “counterfeit narratives” of modern life to find authentic peace and connection.

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“My earliest memory is the day that my dad walked out on our family. In the days, weeks, months after that, my mom finds her way to a local church. I’m probably four years old and I remember this moment with great crystal clarity something in my heart saying, ‘I want this. This is better.’ That was the moment I took my first step of faith and trusted Jesus as Savior.” - Matt Markins

“It is funny how God can direct your steps, sometimes in very crooked paths, but somehow He straightens it out.” - Matt Markins 

“We have pivots, right, chapters that come to an end. I literally picked up a phone and called somebody I knew, David, and said ‘Hey, do you think Awana could ever use me?’ And David got up from that call and went to the president’s desk and booked a meeting, and the rest is history.” - Matt Markins

“Discipleship is relational. No matter how much we try to AI discipleship, human-on-human interaction and mentoring and coaching and consulting… if we don’t control the calendar, the calendar will control you.” - Matt Markins

“Start putting blocks of time way out in advance on [your] calendar. You have to buy the real estate of your time well in advance. Then when you begin to approach it, you can say, ‘Oh year, I want to use my time differently. What is it that I need to build into that space?’” - Matt Markins

“The cultural gap between us as global citizens is really narrowing. When it comes to anxiety or depression or isolation, we’re all kind of at a similar spot.” - Matt Markins

“Kids need adults around them that have God on their heart, that are open to being redeemed and shaped by God.” - Matt Markins

“If I can talk to my kids about ballet, about the latest pop artists, about what’s happening in their school, and that’s natural for me, then I have built the infrastructure. The conduit is in place for me to do discipleship. The number one thing we need in our homes is dialog.” - Matt Markins

“There’s all kinds of things in life that are holding us captive. We’re allowing our hearts to be open for something else to come in and that something else is counterfeit. There are counterfeit narratives coming at our children, at you and me, and we let them sink into our story, into our minds, into our hearts.” - Matt Markins

“Christianity is good, but the danger is to say that secular culture is bad and to say, ‘But there’s no problems in our culture.’ Christian culture has all kinds of problems because there’s sin inside of us.” - Matt Markins

“All the heroes of the faith were pretty jacked up people. It’s because of grace that we’re saved, because of grace that God can change us sometimes in a moment, sometimes in a lifetime.” - Matt Markins

“Peace is available to me because of Jesus. So I am really working on how to be cognizant of that, how to spiritually be sitting in God’s presence and be connected to that, but also how to make sure that my life is wired to where I can set aside time to cultivate that even more.” - Matt Markins

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Awana

Mikhail Gorbachev 

Oprah Winfrey 

Young Life

Anchor Hymns

Samford University 

Inside Out

Welch College

John Mark Comer

Pastor Mark Sayers

The Hunger Games

Emotionally Healthy Discipleship by Peter Scazzaro

Immanuel Nashville

The Story We Tell Our Children by Matt Markins

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Matt Markins’ website

Matt Markins’ Facebook

Matt Markins’ Instagram

Matt Markins’ X

Matt Markins’ YouTube

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

In this week’s episode, Andrew Osenga sits down with friend and musician Josh Wilson to discuss his journey of personal and professional change. Josh shares why his answer to “What have you changed your mind about and why?” is profoundly different now than it would have been four years ago. He opens up about his past struggles with alcohol addiction and anxiety, and how his decision to speak publicly about these experiences became a significant pivot in his life and career. Discover how embracing vulnerability and seeking help transformed his songwriting and approach to his artistry, leading to his latest album, “Mental Help.”

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“When I started drinking, I drank in moderation. It wasn’t a problem for a number of years. But when it became a problem, I was drinking to turn down those questions, to turn down the volume on the anxiety and sort of the existential hum that was always there. I didn’t realize this until I quit, because when I quit they came back.” - Josh Wilson

“I realized it’s just more fun to be honest and tell the truth in my songwriting and in my own personal life with friends and family. It’s not that I air all my dirty laundry. I’m the Venn diagram of who people think I am and who I actually am. I’m trying to close that as much as possible in an appropriate way.” - Josh Wilson

“I hope when someone hears me talk about these things honestly—anxiety, depression, and addiction—I hope it’s disarming in the sense that if someone hears it, whether in conversation or in a song, they think, Okay, yeah, it's normal to deal with these kinds of things.” - Josh Wilson

“I’ve released so many songs that I’ve already said so many things about subject A, B, and C. It’s like, Well, I could write another song, or I could try and dig even deeper and find something that makes me a little bit uncomfortable to talk about and hopefully makes people lean in, like, God’s not mad at you. I want to hear that.” - Josh Wilson

“I had a mental breakdown in 2022, and thankfully I’m so much better. Now I’m to the point where I have the mental capacity. I’m sort of rebuilding it all and picking up where I left off back in 2019, and taking multiple instruments out. I want to connect on a human level with people.” - Josh Wilson

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Radnor Lake State Park

The Painted Desert album by Andrew Osenga

Mental Help album by Josh Wilson

“Jesus and Therapy” song by Josh Wilson

“God’s Not Mad at You” song by Josh Wilson

Jubilee YouTube channel

The Russell Moore Show

Phil Keaggy

Ed Sheeran

Jason Gray

*Watch this interview on the YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Josh Wilson’s website

Josh Wilson’ Instagram

Josh Wilson’s Facebook

Josh Wilson’s YouTube

Josh Wilson’s TikTok

Josh Wilson’s X

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This week on The Pivot, we had a heartfelt conversation with Robert and Lori Crosby as they shared the vital work of their Reach Hurting Kids Institute. They opened up about what it truly means to apply a trauma-informed lens to ministry, explaining how shifting our perspective is key. Instead of seeing trauma-related behaviors as something to be taken personally, they teach us to see them as opportunities—chances to uncover deeper feelings and support a child’s path toward healing. Robert, with his researcher’s insight, and Lori, with her therapist’s heart, emphasize the power of a relational approach over a rigid, behavior-focused one. They talked about the beauty of flexible planning—the need to “pivot” to meet a specific child’s needs—and, most importantly, the profound importance of ensuring every single child genuinely knows and feels their inherent worth.

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“It’s always amazing when you meet people who work in areas that are so heavy, and yet carry themselves so lightly. The area of children’s trauma, that’s as heavy as it gets, and yet [Robert and Lori] carry this joy with them.” - Andrew Osenga

“I had the chance to start doing research in the realm of children’s ministry, to research trauma as it intersects with ministry. And pretty quickly I realized this is something I’m really passionate about, and this is a place where the church can have a huge, huge impact.” - Robert Crosby

“Some of the clients I was working with were getting kicked out of churches because of trauma-related behaviors. And children kind of interpret that as they’re not good enough to be in the presence of God, which broke my heart.” - Lori Crosby

“A trauma-informed ministry leader recognizes the signs and symptoms of trauma. So if a child is hiding under a desk or they’re dysregulated and screaming, the leader doesn’t personalize the child’s emotional dysregulation, but walks alongside them, shows up, sits with them until the child is regulated, and then can help them heal from whatever they’re going through—help them feel safe, feel connected, feel valued.” - Lori Crosby

“What is the underlying feeling? How can I minister to that? How can I help them be okay so they can participate and engage and feel part of a community and feel loved, so that the church can be part of that child’s healing process?” - Robert Crosby

“You can share God’s love more powerfully by sitting down next to a hurting child and just having a conversation, just checking in with them while you’re building with Legos, maybe sharing a meal. Just showing them Jesus through genuine connection, really being interested in their lives and being curious and open and being present. That speaks so deeply to all of us, I think.” - Lori Crosby

“There’s often a disconnect between what we have planned and what a child actually needs. We have to have the freedom to say, ‘Okay, I’m prepared, but we’ve got to pivot and adapt so we can minister to them.’” - Robert Crosby

“There’s a correlation between the way a child understands and experiences the church and the way they understand and experience God. We’re a proxy for God in that way.” - Robert Crosby

“Relationships are the foundation of this entire approach. It’s getting to know the kids and building rapport and letting them know they’re loved and accepted and unconditionally cared for. This is what’s transformative.” - Robert Crosby

“I think sometimes we over spiritualize things. If you have someone struggling with anxiety or depression, and we [share] scripture verses, there’s so much baggage that a child’s bringing in. So if a child has experiences or is still currently under threat, and we’re trying to pray it away or theologically correct their behaviors which are protecting them from harm, that’s not helpful at all.” - Robert Crosby

“‘God’s not gonna give you more than you can handle’ is one of the most common misquoted scriptures that just does unfathomable harm to somebody who’s in the midst of trauma.” - Lori Crosby

“Maybe the pivot, the shift, is that miracles can happen instantly, but sometimes the miracle is the very long, painful journey we walk.” - Lori Crosby

“Just being present in the pain is what is the most helpful, because you don’t get to do or say anything that takes away somebody’s pain. We desperately want to, but the best thing to do is just sit in silence and be a loving presence who listens.” - Lori Crosby

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Trauma-Informed Children’s Ministry by Robert and Lori Crosby

Reach Hurting Kids Institute

Los Angeles County Office of Education

Promise Keepers

Tortured for Christ by Richard Wurmbrand

B.F. Skinner

Church of the Nazarene

Trail Life USA 

Dollywood

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Reach Hurting Kids website

Robert and Lori’s Facebook

Robert and Lori’s Instagram

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Creator of the beloved series VeggieTales Phil Vischer, whose influence impacted generations of children, joins The Pivot to talk about what happens when you build something incredible, only to watch it fall apart. Phil opens up about what to do when you discover that you’re not as important as you think you are, how to let God save you from your own ambition, and how to cope with devastating failure in order to turn around and build the life you were meant for—free from what others might think. 

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“All I wanted to do was make films and I wanted to be one of the good guys. And then I thought, Well, maybe I’m more than just a good guy who makes films. Maybe I’m like the next Walt Disney.” - Phil Vischer

“I don’t like leading people. Which is a bad thing to discover after you’ve hired a whole bunch of people. So my management style tended to be, find the most competent person who liked to be in charge and make them in charge of all the people.” - Phil Vischer

“You make a huge mistake when you decide that God needs you. Bad things happen.” - Phil Vischer

“[I felt like] I wasn’t doing big things for God if I was curtailing my ambition, not expanding it. I had such a view of evangelical workaholism.” - Phil Vischer

“The model I grew up with was if you’re enjoying life, you’re not trying hard enough. If you’re happy, you’re not doing it right. And finally, God got tired of watching me be that way.” - Phil Vischer

“I wrote 80% of every line that came out of a vegetable’s mouth for ten years. So you become somewhat personally attached to the characters you’ve created and are bringing to life with your writing. And then, someone says ‘We don’t need you to write them anymore.’” - Phil Vischer

“I realized that God was saving me from my ambition, that I was pushing a rock up a hill that He never asked me to push.” - Phil Vischer

“What’s your life’s work going to look like? Who’s the model for your life’s work? We pick almost every model in the world except Jesus.” - Phil Vischer

“We always talk about our successes in the church. We never talk about our failures.” - Phil Vischer

“We’re trying to help a generation stay connected to their faith. To throw out the bathwater, but hang on to baby Jesus.” - Phil Vischer

“I think a lot of people that have gone through what Phil has gone through could be bitter and angry, and I’m sure he had his moments. But I don’t get that from him now. I get a lot of wisdom and compassion and definitely curiosity and a sense of ‘What’s next?’” - Andrew Osenga

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

VeggieTales

The Holy Post

Walt Disney

Experiencing God by Henry Blackaby

Biola University

Billy Graham

Disneyland

Willow Creek Community Church

Christianity Today

Moody Publishers

Skye Jethani

K-Love

Jars of Clay

Sixpence None the Richer 

U2

Wheaton College Radio

Switchfoot

The Ed Sullivan Show

Larry Norman

Randy Stonehill

Keith Green

Angel Studios

John Irwin

Mike Nawrocki

The Dead Sea Squirrels

The Toy That Saved Christmas

Blender

The Apple Dumpling Gang

Time Bandits

Coen Brothers

Wes Anderson

O Brother, Where Art Thou?

The Hudsucker Proxy

Slumdog Millionaire

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Phil Vischer’s website

Phil Vischer’s Facebook

Phil Vischer’s Instagram

Phil Vischer’s X

Phil Vischer’s YouTube

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

This episode with Ashley Cleveland came out in January 2018—the first time Andrew ever met Ashley. This interview had such a profound impact on Andrew that he’s referenced it again and again throughout the years, and we wanted to re-share it with you as we look to a New Year. 

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“I quickly became an alcoholic and a drug addict, but I also became a musician. I started getting a positive response, whereas everything prior had been pretty negative. So I look upon it as this marker that God gave me to keep me on the planet.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I knew less than anything about the industry. But a divide had been crossed, and suddenly I’m a songwriter. I dropped out of school after a couple of years and I went back to California and that’s really where I learned to be an artist. I cut my teeth in clubs.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I wound up pregnant, very ill with my addiction, so I turned to the church. And I have to say the church responded deeply and wonderfully.” - Ashley Cleveland 

“I couldn’t even cope with myself, let alone a child. And yet once I heard that heartbeat, I knew it was gonna be beyond me to give her up. Suddenly, there was someone else, and that was really the beginning of faith for me.” - Ashley Cleveland

“I left that hospital knowing that there was a God and He loved me, though I had no earthly idea why.” - Ashley Cleveland

“You take the art wherever you go. I’m so glad I had a career with a small C because what that meant for me in practical terms was I was home.” - Ashley Cleveland

“For me, the best way to live is with my hands wide open and say, ‘Lord, you are the most surprising thing in my life.’” - Ashley Cleveland

“I’m so thankful to be alive. Everything else is gravy.” - Ashley Cleveland

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Anchor Hymns

Sally Lloyd-Jones

Neil Young

University of Tennessee

Pam Tillis

John Hiatt

NACA (National Association of Campus Activities)

Michael W. Smith

Steven Curtis Chapman

Rich Mullins

Twenty Feet From Stardom

C.S. Lewis

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Ashley Cleveland’s Instagram

Ashley Cleveland’s Facebook

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Join Andrew for a really special end-of-the-year episode as he opens up about the creative work he put out in 2025. He shares some honest reflections about what he learned this year, what didn’t quite work out, and what he’s hoping to carry with him as we step into the new year. We’re talking about how to truly learn from those inevitable failures, seeing them as a chance to redesign the life we want, and the difficult but necessary process of letting things go. And, perhaps most importantly, he’s sharing why carving out space for both rest and community is so critical, especially when they’re the first things that tend to get sacrificed when life gets hectic. Here’s to another year of growing, changing, and simply being humans who make things.

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“The truth is I made a lot of things for a long time that had no way to come out, and then they just sort of stacked up, and I was finally like, I’ve got to get this stuff out. I’ve got to just get these piles off the desk so I can do something else. And now I get the chance to start afresh.” - Andrew Osenga

“We learn from our failures.” - Andrew Osenga

“I love making music, but I also love having conversations and talking about ideas and just getting to talk to some of the most fascinating, incredible people.” - Andrew Osenga

“When I tell you the people we have lined up to talk to next year, I literally cannot believe it. Some of my absolute heroes, authors and artists, people that I could not believe said yes. I am so excited and nervous. It’s going to be so fun.” - Andrew Osenga

“Alison, my wife, is dealing with cancer, and that’s a long, long, long journey. It’s still really hard. She’s doing a little bit better than a year ago, and we’re really grateful for that. I thank you so much for your prayers.” - Andrew Osenga

“I need to find some things I can let go of. I hear other people’s stories, and what you find over and over and over is that community is so important and rest is so important. And when we get busy and spin too many plates, the things that immediately disappear are community and rest.” - Andrew Osenga

“We isolate and we ignore the Sabbath and we work, work, work by ourselves. That’s what I do. And all of the sudden, I start to think that I’m the reason everything is working or not working, I can do it all by myself, everything hinges on me, and it doesn’t. I start trusting in myself and not God. I’m leaning on myself and not those around me.” - Andrew Osenga

“This is a good time of year where you just have to pause a little bit and you get a chance to rethink, look at your schedule, look at your priorities, look at the things you’re planning on doing, and say, ‘What can I stop? How can I reschedule my time?’” - Andrew Osenga

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

Amen. 30 Days of Prayers from the Headwaters by Andrew Osenga

Anchor Hymns

Sandra McCracken

Charlie Peacock

Samford University 

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.

Lead singer of The New Respects and author Jasmine Mullen joins The Pivot for a walk down memory lane, revisiting a beautiful childhood, the band members who turned into family, and a unique form of childhood rebellion: playwriting (and yes, they talk about her adorable play about how the star of Bethlehem was chosen). Jasmine and Andrew reminisce about their younger selves, when Andrew was first working at a record company and met Jasmine, when neither of them knew what they were doing. Jasmine opens up about the strong bonds that have shaped her life and career, and made her into who she is today. 

Thought-Provoking Quotes: 

“All my childhood years were in this house. It’s my favorite place in the world. It’s so beautiful, it’s in the middle of nowhere. Last night when I was driving here there was a cow in the middle of the road. It’s kind of chaotic, but it’s really sweet.” - Jasmine Mullen 

“Whenever I think of my mom, like in the fullness of herself, I think about her riding. There’s a huge hill in the backyard. She would ride down that hill on her horse bareback, and she was so cool.” - Jasmine Mullen

“Growing up, there’s a house on the hill to the right, and my mom’s mom and her dad lived in that house. Then my dad’s parents lived right across the street. And it was just so awesome, they were the best ever. God set me up so well with grandparents who are like storybook grandparents. I look back and I’m just like, ‘Lord, what a gift, what a blessing to have that kind of support that close.’” - Jasmine Mullen

“Darius Fitzgerald, Zandy Mowry, and I are family friends. We were raised together, kind of like family.” - Jasmine Mullen

“The word ‘friend’ was heavier to me than the word ‘family’ because it was something that you choose, and family just happens to you. Friendship is something that you can build on.” - Jasmine Mullen

“I was always super rebellious about not wanting to be in music because both of my parents are in music. So my form of rebellion was, ‘I’m going to write plays.’” - Jasmine Mullen

Links, Products, and Resources Mentioned:

The New Respects band

Ben Washington Is the Newbie on the Block by Jasmine Mullen

Ben Washington Is the Odd Man Out by Jasmine Mullen

Anchor Hymns

Brooke Fraser

Carly Bannister

“God of This City” by Chris Tomlin

Tyler Perry

*Watch this interview on Andrew’s YouTube channel!  

*All episode music is by Andrew Osenga. 

Guest’s Links: 

Jasmine Mullen’s website

Jasmine Mullen’s Facebook

Jasmine Mullen’s Instagram

Jasmine Mullen’s X 

Connect with Andrew: 

Website

YouTube

Substack

Spotify

Facebook

Instagram

How to Remember by Andrew Osenga

Hold the Light by Andrew Osenga

*The Pivot is produced in conjunction with Four Eyes Media.