🎙️ 51. Same Faith. Different Beliefs. Still Christian. (Part 2) – Rev. Gerlyn Henry (Anglican, Canada), Pastor Paul Drees (ELCA Lutheran, USA) & Pastor Joe Smith (Post-Evangelical, USA)

What were you taught you had to believe in order to be a Christian?

And what happened when you started asking questions?

In Part 2 of this conversation, Alexis Rice returns with Rev. Gerlyn Henry, Pastor Paul Drees, and Pastor Joe Smith to finish the viral “Put Your Finger Down: Christian Edition” experiment that revealed just how differently Christians can be formed—even while following the same Jesus.

This time, the questions move into some of the places where faith, politics, identity, and fear collide.

Together they explore:

• Abortion, reproductive rights & whether there is one “Christian” position
• Evolution, creation & science
• The assumption that Christians should vote Republican
• Christian nationalism, political power & the American Church
• Biblical literalism, inerrancy & how seminaries teach Scripture
• What happens when questioning theology costs you relationships
• Why doubt may not be the opposite of faith
• Purity culture, shame & sexuality
• What Christians from different traditions can learn from one another

Joe shares what happened when he began publicly questioning biblical inerrancy—and friendships with people he had loved for years simply disappeared.

Paul talks about discovering ideas that challenged his politics not by abandoning the Bible, but by reading it more deeply.

And Gerlyn offers another framework entirely: faith was never meant to mean certainty. Doubt, mystery, wrestling, trust, and seeking understanding can all belong inside a faithful Christian life.

The conversation ends with a challenge that may be more important than debating what someone believes today:

Ask what they were taught.

What was church like when they were a child?
What were they told they had to believe?
What were they afraid to question?
What happened if they did?

Because if we want to understand the divisions inside Christianity—and the rise of Christian nationalism—we need to understand how people were formed.

⛪ Guests

• Rev. Gerlyn Henry — Anglican Church of Canada | IG: @gerlynhenry
• Pastor Paul Drees — ELCA Lutheran | IG: @pastorpauldrees
• Pastor Joe Smith — Post-Evangelical / Disciples of Christ | IG: @therealjoe.smith

📚 People & Resources Mentioned

• Andrew Whitehead — American Idolatry | IG: @andrewwhitehead
• John Fugelsang | IG: @johnfugelsang
• C.S. Lewis
• Luther Seminary
• Columbia Theological Seminary

And yes—if you stay until the end, the pastors reveal their celebrity crushes. 😂

A huge thank you to Pastor Paul Drees, Pastor Joe Smith, and Rev. Gerlyn Henry for the vulnerability, humor, pastoral care, and generosity they brought to this two-part conversation.

May we become more curious about one another’s formation—and a little less certain that our version of Christianity is the only one.

#Christianity #Deconstruction #ProgressiveChristianity #ChristianNationalism #Faith #ReligiousTrauma #Bible

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

50. Same Faith. Different Beliefs. Still Christian. (Part 1) – Rev. Gerlyn Henry (Anglican, Canada), Pastor Paul Drees (ELCA Lutheran, USA) & Pastor Joe Smith (Raised Evangelical, USA)

What if something you were taught you had to believe to be Christian was something millions of other Christians were never taught at all?

That question exploded after a Sacred Slope “Put Your Finger Down: Christian Edition” video reached more than a million views across platforms. The comments were filled with Christians from different traditions essentially asking one another: Wait…you were taught WHAT?

So Alexis Rice reunites with Rev. Gerlyn Henry, Pastor Paul Drees, and Pastor Joe Smith for the conversation a two-minute video couldn’t hold.

Alexis and Joe were formed in American evangelical and fundamentalist Christianity. Gerlyn is an Anglican priest in Canada. Paul is an ELCA Lutheran pastor in the U.S. They share a faith - but they were formed with remarkably different assumptions about what Christians must believe.

In Part One, they compare notes on Genesis and the talking snake, biblical literalism, evolution, the sinner’s prayer, salvation, hell, baptism, confession, grace, and universalism.

For Alexis and Joe, some of these beliefs once carried enormous stakes: Believe this. Pray this. Get this right. Your salvation may depend on it. For Gerlyn and Paul, some were never requirements at all.

The result isn’t a debate over who is the “right” Christian. It’s an honest, funny, sometimes painful conversation about what happens when we become curious about the Christianity outside the one that formed us - and discover that questioning something we inherited doesn’t necessarily mean abandoning Jesus.

Same faith. Different beliefs. Still Christian.

💬 In This Episode

• “Wait - you weren’t taught that?”
• Genesis, talking snakes & biblical literalism
• Creation, evolution & reading Scripture differently
• Is the sinner’s prayer required for salvation?
• Hell, baptism, confession & grace
• Universalism & hopeful universalism
• Religious trauma & the fear of questioning
• Deconstructing certainty without abandoning Jesus
• Saving people from hell vs. bringing heaven to earth
• Discovering Christianity beyond the version you inherited

⛪ Meet the Pastors

• Rev. Gerlyn Henry - @gerlynhenry - Anglican priest, Canada
 • Pastor Paul Drees - @pastorpauldrees - ELCA Lutheran pastor, USA
 • Pastor Joe Smith - @therealjoe.smith raised Free Will Baptist/evangelical; Disciples of Christ pastor, USA

📚 People & Resources Mentioned

• Pete Enns - @peteenns - The Sin of Certainty
• Pastor Meredith Anne Miller - @meredithannemiller - Wonder & Woven
• Brian Recker - @berecker - Hell Bent
• Bradley Jersak - @bradley.jersak - A More Christlike God
• C.S. Lewis - “true myth”
• Nadia Bolz-Weber - @sarcasticlutheran
• Dolores Williams
• Brené Brown - @brenebrown
• Church Clarity - @churchclarity
• AllianceQ
• 1946 @1946themovie

🎧 Part One of a special two-part Sacred Slope conversation.

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

49. Matthew Paul Turner – (Author, When I Thank God) Giving Our Kids a Faith They Don’t Have to Heal From

New York Times bestselling children’s author Matthew Paul Turner joins The Sacred Slope for a conversation about the stories we tell children about God—and the ones many adults are still learning to tell themselves.

Alexis and Matthew explore why children don’t get to choose their first picture of God, how children’s books can become unexpected spaces of healing for adults deconstructing harmful theology, and what it means to raise kids with a faith rooted in love, belonging, gratitude, justice, and the teachings of Jesus.

Matthew shares the story behind his new book, When I Thank God, illustrated by David Catrow, and why gratitude has remained one of the few spiritual practices that stayed with him through fundamentalism, deconstruction, coming out, and rebuilding his faith.

They also talk honestly about Christian nationalism, the Americanization of Christianity, why humility and justice are central to following Jesus, LGBTQ+ inclusion, and what Christians can actually do to make their communities more loving.

And Matthew reflects movingly on his friendship with the late Rachel Held Evans, finishing the children’s books she left behind, and why her legacy continues to change lives.

💬 In This Episode

• Giving children a picture of God they won’t have to heal from
• Why children’s books can help deconstructing adults heal
• When I Thank God and gratitude as a spiritual practice
• Following Jesus in an age of Christian nationalism
• Deconstructing whiteness and Americanized Christianity
• Why humility, justice, compassion, and belonging matter
• LGBTQ+ inclusion and showing up visibly for your neighbors
• The Growing Wall of Love at World Pride Amsterdam
• Matthew’s friendship with Rachel Held Evans
• Finishing Rachel’s children’s books after her death
• What Is God Like? and the upcoming Who Is Jesus?
• Rebuilding a Christianity centered on making things better, more hopeful, and more loving

📚 Matthew Paul Turner

Matthew is the bestselling author of When God Made You, When God Made Light, You Will Always Belong, and the new When I Thank God.

Follow Matthew: @matthewpaulturner

👥 People & Resources Mentioned

• Rachel Held Evans – @rachelheldevans
• Sarah Bessey – @sarahbessey
• Meredith Anne Miller – @meredithannemiller
• Rocky Roggio / 1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture – @rockyroggio
• Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen / The Growing Wall of Love – @thegrowingwalloflove
• David Catrow – @davidcatrow illustrator of When I Thank God
• Danny McBride / The Righteous Gemstones @therighteousgemstones

📖 When I Thank God releases August 18
Pre-Order from The Sacred Slope Book Reccos List: https://bookshop.org/shop/thesacredslope

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

48. John Fugelsang –  (Aspiring Christian) Separation of Church and Hate: Reclaiming Jesus from Christian Nationalism

John Fugelsang returns to The Sacred Slope for a deeper conversation about the book Alexis named the very first Sacred Slope Book of the Year: Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person’s Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds.

Together, they explore why so many Christians and non-Christians alike have embraced the book, what it means to distinguish the teachings of Jesus from Christian nationalism, and why reclaiming Christianity from fear, power, and authoritarianism matters now more than ever.

John reflects on growing up with faith, writing a New York Times bestselling book that speaks to believers and skeptics alike, and why he believes Jesus remains one of history’s most radically compassionate voices. Alexis and John also discuss biblical literacy, Matthew 25, Christian resistance throughout history, and how ordinary Christians can push back against the weaponization of faith without becoming consumed by hatred themselves.

Whether you’re deconstructing, reconstructing, politically exhausted, or simply longing for a Christianity that looks more like Jesus than power, this conversation offers hope, humor, and practical ways to engage difficult conversations with compassion and courage.

📚 Listeners outside the U.S.: Separation of Church and Hate is now available internationally!

💬 In This Episode

• Why Separation of Church and Hate became The Sacred Slope’s first Book of the Year
• What surprised John most after the book became a New York Times bestseller
• Why Christians, atheists, and agnostics are embracing the book
• Christianity versus Christian nationalism
• Following Jesus versus simply following the Bible
• Matthew 25 and the teachings Jesus actually emphasized
• Why Jesus challenged power, wealth, and religious coercion
• Christian resistance throughout history—from the abolitionists to Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
• Christian nationalism, fear, power, and authoritarianism
• How to respond to difficult conversations using scripture with compassion rather than contempt
• Why reclaiming Jesus matters for believers and non-believers alike

Congratulations to This Year’s Book of the Year Nominees!

📖 Braving the Truth – @rachelheldevans & @sarahbessey
📖 Hell Bent – @berecker
📖 We Can Be Brave & I Can Learn to Be Brave – Bishop @mariannbudde
📖 Live Laugh Love – @kkdumez
📖 The Small and the Mighty & We Are Mighty – @sharonsaysso
📖 Separation of Church and Hate – @johnfugelsang
📖 American Idolatry – @ndrewwhitehead
📖 Queer & Christian – Rev. @brandanrobertson
📖 Awake – @jenhatmaker
📖 Wonder – Pastor @meredithannemiller

🏆 The Sacred Slope Book of the Year

John Fugelsang
Separation of Church and Hate

Congratulations, @johnfugelsang, and thank you to every author who shared your wisdom with The Sacred Slope community this year.

👥 People & Resources Mentioned

• Mayor Zohran Mamdani – @zohrankmamdani & @nycmayor
 • Simon Moya-Smith – @simonsaidtakeapic
 • Julie Francella – @juliefrancella
 • Jordan Klepper – @jordanklepper
 • The Daily Show – @thedailyshow

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

47. Rev. Jim Keat, Rev. Reilly Paige, & Rev. Dr. Chris Davies (United Church of Christ) – Preaching Camp: The Ties That Bind

Alexis sits down in person at Project Proclaim Preaching Camp with Rev. Reilly Paige, Rev. Dr. Chris Davies, and Rev. Jim Keat for a funny, moving, and deeply hopeful conversation about the ties that bind us - to Jesus, to one another, and to a faith larger than fear, fundamentalism, or the loudest version of American Christianity.

Together, they explore what keeps them following Jesus and what happens when Christians from evangelical and mainline traditions learn to speak across very different theological languages. Reilly shares what it means to be the pastor they needed growing up and why the word “Christian” now requires follow-up questions. Chris describes Jesus as friend, teacher, organizer, prophet, and a model for resisting empire. Jim reflects on Christianity as the spiritual language he inherited - and how digital ministry can create genuine church community far beyond a sanctuary.

Whether you are deconstructing, rebuilding, missing church, or wondering whether you can fall in love with Jesus again, this conversation offers a vision of Christianity rooted in relationship, curiosity, courage, belonging, and genuinely good news.

💬 In This Episode

• What keeps Rev Reilly, Rev Dr Chris, and Rev Jim following Jesus
• The ties that bind us to faith and one another
• Falling in love with Jesus beyond fear and fundamentalism
• Evangelical and mainline Christian “languages”
• The rapture, hell, Bible literalism, sexuality, and forbidden questions
• Being the pastor you needed growing up
• Queer Christian leadership
• Reclaiming the word “Christian”
• Preaching as the proclamation of good news
• Why progressive pastors need to show up online
• Digital ministry, online communion, and real church community
• A closing prayer for anyone deconstructing, healing, or searching for home

👥 People & Resources Mentioned

• Rev. Reilly Paige – @rangerreilly
• Rev. Dr. Chris Davies – @jesuslovesdinos
• Rev. Jim Keat – @revjimruns
• Project Proclaim – @project_proclaim
• Southern New England Conference UCC – @sneucc
• United Church of Christ – @unitedchurchofchrist
• The Riverside Church – @riversidenyc
• Bible in a Minute – @bibleinamin
• Pastor Cody Deese – @codydeese
• April Ajoy – @aprilajoy
• Rev. Bethany Peerbolte – @rev.bethany
• Rocky Roggio director of 1946 the movie - @rockyroggio
•  1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted A Culture - @1946themovie

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

46. Meredith Miller (Non-Denominational Pastor, Author) – Wonder: Talking to Your Kids About God When You're Still Figuring It Out

Alexis sits down with non-denominational pastor, author, and children's faith expert Meredith Miller for one of the most practical and hope-filled conversations yet about parenting after deconstruction and teaching the Bible to your kids when you're still figuring out your own faith.

Author of Wonder: A Grown-Up's Guide to Exploring the Bible with Children and Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From, Meredith has spent more than 20 years helping families cultivate emotionally healthy, curiosity-filled Christian faith. Together, Alexis and Meredith explore how to talk with kids about God, Genesis, evolution, Adam and Eve, a talking snake, Revelation, the rapture, hell, and difficult Bible passages without fear, shame, or pretending to have all the answers.

Whether you're rebuilding your faith after evangelical fundamentalism, navigating deconstruction, or simply wondering how to introduce your children to Christianity in a healthier way, this conversation offers practical tools, deep encouragement, and a vision of faith rooted in trust, curiosity, compassion, and the teachings of Jesus.

💬 In This Episode

• Meredith's book Wonder: A Grown-Up's Guide to Exploring the Bible with Children
• Teaching the Bible to kids when you don't have all the answers
• Parenting after deconstruction
• Raising curious kids instead of fearful kids
• Why Genesis is a poem, not a science textbook
• Evolution and Christian faith
• Talking to kids about Adam and Eve
• How to answer difficult Bible questions
• Hell, Revelation, and why the rapture isn't in the Bible
• Bible literalism, curiosity, and healthy faith formation
• Church hurt, evangelicalism, and rebuilding trust
• Learning alongside our children instead of having all the answers
• A beautiful closing prayer for anyone healing from religious trauma

👥 People & Resources Mentioned

• Meredith Miller – @meredithannemiller
• Wonder: A Grown-Up's Guide to Exploring the Bible with Children is available on The Sacred Slope Book Reccos List: https://bookshop.org/shop/thesacredslope
• Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From
• Pastor Kristen Mockler Young – @kristenmockleryoung, Author: The Other Side of Certainty (coming soon!)
• Fuller Youth Institute @fulleryouthinstitute 
• Dr. Janet Kellogg Ray @janetkelloggray

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

45. Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde (Episcopal) - I Can Learn to Be Brave: Building Courage One Step at a Time

Alexis welcomes back Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde, Episcopal Bishop of Washington, D.C., for a deeply hopeful conversation about courage, faith, and her beautiful new children's book, I Can Learn to Be Brave- releasing July 7th!

Known around the world for her sermon calling for mercy toward LGBTQ people and immigrants, Bishop Budde reflects on the quieter acts of bravery that prepare us for life's defining moments. Together, Alexis and Bishop Budde explore why courage begins in childhood, why adults need this message just as much as children, how churches can rebuild trust after church hurt, what faithful public witness looks like in a polarized world, and why the future of the Church could depend on ordinary people willing to take one faithful step at a time.

This conversation is an invitation to raise courageous kids, become more courageous ourselves, and imagine a Christianity rooted in humility, inclusion, compassion, hope, and the teachings of Jesus.

💬 In This Episode

• Bishop Budde's new children's book, I Can Learn to Be Brave
• Why courage is something we learn and practice
• Raising courageous kids through faith
• Why adults need bravery too
• Spiritual formation and listening to the Holy Spirit
• Church hurt, deconstruction, and rebuilding trust
• Christian nationalism and loving our neighbors
• Ministry in the digital age
• LGBTQ inclusion and women in ministry
• Why ordinary people change history
• Building the future of the Church one faithful step at a time
• A beautiful closing prayer for anyone needing hope today

👥 People & Resources Mentioned

• Bishop Mariann Edgar Budde – @mariannbudde
• I Can Learn to Be Brave  is available for purchase on The Sacred Slope Book Reccos List: https://bookshop.org/shop/thesacredslope
• Illustrated by Holly Hatam – @hollyhatamillustration
• Flamingo Books, an imprint of Penguin Young Readers – @penguinkids
• Rev. Gerlyn Henry - @gerlynhenry
• Pastor Paul Drees - @pastorpauldrees
• Sharon McMahon – @sharonsaysso
• Jonathan Eig - @joneig
• Rich Villodas – @richvillodas
• Adam Hamilton – @revadamhamilton

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

44. Leigh Larson (Disciples of Christ) – Christian Nationalism, Patriotism & Reclaiming Church

Alexis sits down with theologian, researcher, public educator, and creator of @followtheleighder, Leigh Larson, for one of the most important conversations yet on Christian nationalism, American identity, and what it means to faithfully follow Jesus in a polarized world.

Raised in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) tradition, Leigh draws on her graduate work in theology and military chaplaincy to help Christians better understand the relationship between faith, democracy, power, and patriotism.

Together, Alexis and Leigh explore why Christian nationalism is not the same thing as Christianity, why America has never belonged to one denomination or political movement, and how progressive Christians have helped shape many of our country's greatest moral movements. They also discuss church hurt, deconstruction, rebuilding faith, and why Christians should never surrender either the Bible or the American flag to extremists.

This conversation is an invitation to reclaim hope, compassion, and a vision of Christianity rooted in the teachings of Jesus rather than fear or domination.

💬 In This Episode

• What Christian nationalism is—and what it isn't
 • Growing up in the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
 • Church hurt, institutional harm, and returning to faith
 • The relationship between Christianity, democracy, and patriotism
 • Why America is not a Christian nation—and why that's good for faith
 • Progressive Christians throughout American history
 • The role of women in early Christianity
 • Reimagining church for a new generation
 • Why compassion is a radical act
 • Finding common ground across political and religious differences
 • Why the future of the church depends on who shows up

👥 People/Resources Mentioned

• Leigh Larson: @followtheleighder
 • Sharon McMahon: @sharonsaysso
 • Rachel Held Evans: @rachelheldevans
 • Sarah Bessey: @sarahbessey
 • Kristin Kobes Du Mez: @kkdumez
 • Richard Rohr
 • Tim Whitaker / The New Evangelicals: @thenewevangelicals
 • April Ajoy: @aprilsajoy
 • Dan McClellan: @maklelan
 • Nadia Bolz-Weber: @nadia_bolzweber
 • James Talarico: @jamestalarico
 • Andrew Whitehead @ndrewwhitehead

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

43. Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen (Gay & Christian in The Netherlands) – A Journey Back to Church Through Love, Marriage & Hope

Alexis sits down with Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen, Dutch LGBTQ+ advocate and founder of The Growing Wall of Love, for a moving conversation about growing up gay in a conservative Christian environment, surviving years of bullying, finding lifelong love, and discovering that losing trust in the church doesn't have to mean losing God.

Jarko shares his extraordinary journey from Belgium to the Netherlands, meeting his husband Jos, becoming one of the first same-sex couples married after marriage equality became law in the first country to legalize same-sex marriage, and the pastor whose simple act of blessing their wedding became the beginning of healing after years of church hurt.

Together, Alexis and Jarko explore what Christians around the world can learn from one another, why affirming Christians exist in every denomination, and how crossing cultures, languages, and traditions can deepen our faith, expand our empathy, and reveal a much bigger picture of the global Church.

💬 **In This Episode**

• Growing up gay in a conservative Christian environment
• Bullying, shame, and discovering God's unconditional love
• A remarkable love story spanning Belgium and the Netherlands
• Marriage equality in the Netherlands and becoming one of the first same-sex married couples
• Finding faith again after church hurt
• Why affirming Christians exist in every denomination
• Raising children as a same-sex Christian couple
• The difference between welcoming and affirming churches
• Advice for pastors seeking to create safer, more inclusive churches
• The Growing Wall of Love and World Pride Amsterdam

👥 **People/Resources Mentioned**

• Jarko de Witte van Leeuwen: @jarko_de_witte_van_leeuwen
• The Growing Wall of Love: @thegrowingwalloflove
• Rocky Roggio / *1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture*: @rockyroggio • @1946themovie
• Rev. Dr. Chris Davies: @revdrchrisdavies
• Project Proclaim: @project_proclaim
• Southern New England Conference UCC: @sneucc  ⁨@uccvideos⁩  
• Westerkerk Amsterdam: @westerkerkamsterdam
• WorldPride Amsterdam 2026: @worldpride2026

#Christianity #ProgressiveChristianity #LGBTQChristianity #GayChristian #ChurchHurt #Deconstruction #Reconstruction #TheNetherlands #WorldPride #1946TheMovie #OpenAndAffirming #Faith #TheSacredSlope

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control

42. Justin Telthorst (Catholic, Empty Chairs) - A Gay Catholic on Faith, the Pope, and the Empty Seats in the Church (Pride Month Reissue)

Alexis sits down with Justin Telthorst, a gay Catholic, speaker, and creator of Empty Chairs @emptychairshome for a moving conversation about faith, identity, church hurt, and belonging inside the Catholic tradition.

Justin shares his story of growing up Catholic, surviving conversion therapy, wrestling with conscience and church teaching, and finding his way back to a relationship with God rooted in honesty, love, and truth. Together, Alexis and Justin explore what it means to stay connected to Jesus when institutions wound, and why LGBTQ Christians are still showing up, still praying, and still making room for hope.

💬 In This Episode

• Growing up Catholic and falling in love with the Church
• When faith and identity begin to feel in conflict
• The harm of conversion therapy
• Reclaiming a relationship with God after church hurt
• The meaning behind Empty Chairs
• Why LGBTQ Catholics are still showing up
• Gatekeeping, conscience, belonging, and love of neighbor
• How parents can respond when their child comes out
• Catholics, Protestants, communion, and the tensions we inherit

👥 People/Resources Mentioned

• Justin Telthorst / Empty Chairs: @emptychairshome
• The Pope: @pontifex
• Brené Brown: @brenebrown
• 1946: The Mistranslation That Shifted Culture: @1946themovie
• Colby Martin / UnClobbered: @colbymartin
• Church Clarity: churchclarity.org
• Father James Martin: @jamesmartinsj
• Outreach: @outrchcatholic
• Father James Alison
• Theology for the Unwanted: @theounwanted
• GayExTrad: @gayextrad
• New Ways Ministry: @newwaysministry
• Fortunate Families: fortunatefamilies.com
• Honoring the Gift
• Equip / Pieter Valk
• Building Catholic Futures: @buildingcatholicorg
• Eve Tushnet: @eve_tushnet
• Without Exception / David Palmieri: see outreach.faith and newwaysministry.org
• Dr. Julia Sadusky: @drsadusky

#Catholicism #Christianity #deconstruction #reconstruction #LGBTQChristianity #GayCatholic #ProgressiveChristianity #QueerTheology #ChurchHurt #Catholic #1946TheMovie #LGBT #LGBTQ #emptychairs

Support the show

About The Sacred Slope
Where the slippery slope becomes sacred ground.
For the spiritually tender—raised in or rooted in Christianity.
Come explore our global, diverse, inclusive Christian faith, deconstruction, and spiritual identity in a rapidly changing world. Through conversations with clergy, scholars, and cultural voices, the show creates space for people navigating faith after certainty, church harm, or political co-option of religion.

🎧 WATCH: YouTube / Spotify
     LISTEN: Apple Podcasts + everywhere
     FOLLOW: @thesacredslope (IG, FB, Threads, TikTok, YouTube, Bluesky)

🔗 Connect
🎧 Explore episodes & community: linktr.ee/TheSacredSlope
🎙 Hosted by Alexis Rice
🎵 Music by Brett Rutledge, Eddie Irvin & Sean Spence
📬 Nominate a guest: [email protected]

🌿 Community Guidelines 🌿
Fruit of the Spirit:  ❤️ love • 💫 joy • ☮️ peace • 🕊 patience • 💝 kindness • 🌿 goodness • 🙏 faithfulness • 🤲 gentleness • 💪 self-control