The Shift with Sam Baker

My guest today is the Australian writer and thinker, Charlotte Wood.

Charlotte is the celebrated author of seven novels and three books of non-fiction. I first encountered her with her novel, The Natural Way of Things, which won the Stella Prize (the Australian equivalent of the Women’s Prize) in 2016. Then, my favourite, The Weekend, which follows three women in their 70s as they clear the house of their dead friend over the course of a weekend, became an international bestseller. She followed it up with Booker Prize shortlisted Stone Yard Devotional. In short, In her mid-50s her career became rocket fuelled.

But we’re here to talk, amongst other things, about… food. I know right?!

Because Charlotte is not just a critically acclaimed writer, she is also an excellent cook. And in Love And Hunger, she writes about the gift of food, friendship and caring through cooking.

Charlotte joined me from her home in Sydney to talk about our mutual adoration of the Australian novelist Helen Garner, challenging cultural representations of older women, what to do with old friends and getting diagnosed with cancer at the same time as BOTH her sisters. The lure of the stripped back life, why she lives in fear of becoming a boring annoying old person and our mutual loathing of home economics!

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including Love & Hunger by Charlotte Wood, as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by Sam Baker.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠⁠

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift is created, hosted and produced by Sam Baker and edited by Kelsey Bennett at Pineapple Audio Productions.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is the award-winning comedian and podcaster Helen Thorn. The co-creator of the comedy duo and hit podcast, Scummy Mummies, Helen travels the UK performing in a gold catsuit. Which might scream confidence to you, but her books tell a different story.

She is also the bestselling author of Get Divorced, Be Happy and How To Face Big Change and Come Back Stronger, which harness her trademark hope, humour and honesty to look at what it takes to go from a broken mess living on booze fags and cream eggs post-divorce to marathon running whizz. Or, as she puts it, 'how to bounce back from life’s shittest moments'!

Helen joined me to mess around, frankly! But when she wasn’t, she told me the crazy, horrifying story of surviving her divorce - and honestly, if you think your ex is a piece of work, you aint seen nothing (and I mean nothing!) yet.

We also discussed the cult of the hopeless man, shaking off the cringe cloak of embarrassment, the joy of growing your own future, learning to celebrate small wins, losing your thirtysomething life blinkers, distinguishing peace from boredom and why peak midlife shit is where the magic happens!

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including ⁠⁠How To Face Big Change and Come Back Stronger by Helen Thorn as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by Sam Baker.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠⁠

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift is created, hosted and produced by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Audio Productions.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

My guest today is the bestselling novelist Jennie Godfrey. Jennie has experienced the kind of midlife turnaround most of us can only dream of.

She started her career working in HR and rose to the top of her chosen industry working for a large corporation. Life was a whirlwind of high powered meetings, swanky job titles, frocks and heels - and boozing to release the pressure valve. Cue burn out - and drying out!

In her mid 40s, in the midst of what she now knows was perimenopause, Jennie took voluntary redundancy and stepped back from her corporate job. Without a packed diary and a plan for the first time in decades she took a job in her local bookshop and signed up for a creative writing course. 

There she started writing her debut novel, The List of Suspicious Things, loosely inspired by her childhood growing up in West Yorkshire during the reign of the Yorkshire Ripper. It became the subject of a massive publisher auction, went to number one in the Sunday Times Bestseller lists and was the biggest debut of 2024. Now she’s followed it up with The Barbecue at No9, set in the summer of 1985 amidst the biggest music event in history, Live Aid.

Jennie came to my flat to hang out with sausage the cat and talk about what it’s been like living the fairytale publishing dream. But don’t hate her! We also discussed how it felt to lose herself both physically and mentally in her 40s, how she recognises balance when she swings past it, growing up as a ‘glass child’, becoming visible in her 50s and rediscovering her lighthearted teenage self thanks to kitchen discos.

Hear Jennie talking about The List of Suspicious Things to The Shift bookclub.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including ⁠The Barbecue at No.9 by Jennie Godfrey as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by Sam Baker.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠⁠

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift is created, hosted and produced by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Audio Productions.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Where do you turn when the identity you’ve clung to for decades slips away? That’s the position today’s guest, Jane Green, found herself in at 55. Her solution? She packed a case and ran away!

Anyone who was a fan of women’s commercial fiction (aka chicklit, ugh) in the 90s and noughties will know Jane’s name. Along with Marian Keyes and Helen Fielding, she ruled the roost. She wrote 21 novels - the first of which, Jemima J, was right up there with Bridget Jones in the states. And for a while, they were piled high in bookshops all over the world. Until they weren’t...

But now her subject is herself and I guarantee her story will make you want to chuck it all in and move to Morocco!

Rewilding is her first memoir and recounts the breakup of her 24 year marriage and what came next. At 55, realising she had vanished inside the trappings of her Instagram-worthy life, Jane left the marital home on the East Coast of America with only a suitcase and went to Marrakech. Once she got over the shock and terror of being alone after bringing up four children, she set about the job of rewilding herself, dropping the armour that had seen her through her adult life and stripping herself back to the original Jane. Several years on Jane is living proof that she wasn’t escaping her life, but reclaiming it.

Jane joined me to talk about the long process of returning to herself from a life she no longer recognised. We also discussed the gift of menopause, the curse of perfection, Why no-one should ever give up financial independence, being a ‘walkaway wife’, learning to recognise red flags, facing the fear, And how to answer the question: how did I get stuck in a life I don’t recognise?

2 more things before we start:

• Firstly, Apologies if the sound is iffy in places. (I mean, it IS iffy!) Jane was sitting outside because of the heat so we were dealing with a lot of erm…external noises!

• Secondly, and if, by the end of this, your heart is beating faster, Jane is hosting a 5 day rewilding retreat in Marrakech in October. Find out more at www.kitabamarrakech.com

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including Rewilding by Jane Green as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by Sam Baker.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.⁠

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift is created, hosted and produced by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Audio Productions.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hello and welcome to SEASON 22(!) of The Shift with Sam Baker podcast. That's 300 fascinating conversations with women in midlife and beyond, if you're new here and fancy diving in. (To think that when I started it back in 2020, I thought I'd only do six!)

My guest today is Sarah Hiscox. Now a counsellor for NA and AA, amongst other things, the first three and a half decades of Sarah’s life were marked by turbulence and addiction.

Sarah was just eight years old when she first experienced the oblivion drugs can bring - in that case through sleeping pills (mogadon, if you can believe it) - and a young mother by the time she became addicted to heroin. 

In her memoir, The Beginning And End Of Everything, Sarah looks candidly at the childhood experiences that shaped her and how ‘the hole inside my being’ led her to lose her marriage and custody of her children. Somehow, after repeated relapses, thanks to her sister, Belinda, then ex-husband Renshaw, and best friend of thirty-odd years, Davina McCall, she got it all back. Sarah has now been clean for 24 years. So, if you’re looking for hope when it feels like all hope has gone, you’ll find it here.

Sarah joined me to talk about self esteem and the life long impact of never feeling enough, the shame surrounding disordered eating and the difficulty of caring for a parent who never cared for you. We also discussed sisterhood and the power of female friendship, how she finally got off the misery go round, overcoming her personal committee of critics and finding purpose at 50.  

CW: anorexia bulimia addiction suicidal ideation 

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including The Beginning and End of Everything by Sarah Hiscox as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by Sam Baker.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift is created, hosted and produced by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Audio Productions.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Ever since I wrote about Stacey Duguid's campaign to shine a light on women's midlife career crisis loads of you have messaged me to say, 'Get her on the podcast!' Well, I have news for you - Stacey has been on the podcast! She first shared her midlife experience with me in September 2023, but now she's made it her mission to life the lid on the secret midlife career shame so many of us are suffering it felt like the right time to revisit our conversation. This is not about the unfolding career crisis but I think there's so much here that will resonate with you. Here it is...

Before I got to know today’s guest, Stacey Duguid, I thought she was a bit scary TBH. Fierce in all the ways. And then I got to know her - when I was editor of Red and she worked on Elle - and discovered she wasn’t. At all.

Because Stacey, like so many of us, is just exceptionally good at putting on a front. And that front served her well, until it didn’t. She was 45 when everything collapsed. Or, more accurately, she put a grenade under it. The thing she’d been trained to want ever since she was tiny: the house, the husband, the children, the career, the happy ever after. All blown to smithereens. 

Now 49, a single mum and a successful journalist, very much back from the brink, Stacey has written In Pursuit of Happiness, the most brilliant book about a midlife collapse and ultimately recovery. I know you are going to love it.

As candid in person as she is in print, Stacey talks frankly about the pain of divorce, searching for a self you’ve never met, self-blame, “hotness syndrome”, perimenopause mayhem (and I mean MAYHEM), making peace with her mother, rediscovering her creativity, midlife sexuality and… toyboywarehouse.com.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including In Pursuit of Happiness by Stacey Duguid, and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls @ Pineapple Audio Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on instagram @theothersambaker

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode first aired in the summer of 2022. I'm replaying it now because Altered Images are going back on the road this autumn, touring their iconic album, Happy Birthday, 45 years (45!!!) after its release....

I can’t remember the first time I met my friend Clare Grogan. But like many Gen-Xers, I remember the first time I saw her in the cult movie Gregory’s Girl, and then, later the same year, on Top of the Pops with Altered Images, performing the band’s top 10 hits Happy Birthday and I Could Be Happy. (I have a bit of a soft spot for that last one.)

Still in her teens, she was living a life the rest of us could only dream of. Until, at 25, with three top ten albums under her belt, she left it all behind so she could, as she puts it, “feel where I came from again”.

Since then she has had countless presenting and acting roles in everything from Eastenders to Skins. And now, 38 years after her last outing, she’s back with a new Altered Images album Mascara Streakz.

Clare zoomed in to talk about deciding where you want to go in life, doing every show like it might be your last and being back on the road at 60. We discussed the unexpected impact of her daughter hitting the age she was when Altered Images hit the big time, her “difficult 40s” and why it’s never too late to start a band.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at Bookshop.org, including the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me!

* And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including transcripts of the podcast, please join The Shift community. Find out more at https://theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com/

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode first aired June 2022...

This week’s guest will make you wonder what you do with your time! Sabrina Pace-Humphreys is an award-winning business woman, a social justice activist, an ultra-runner, a mother of four and grandmother of three. (And as if that wasn't enough, right now, as of June 19th 2022, she's running 268 miles along The Spine of the UK!) Not bad going for 44. 

But it is none of those things that led her to write her memoir, Black Sheep - a story of growing up Black, on the poverty line, in small town England. As a child, and the only Black person in that town, she experienced constant bullying, verbal and physical racist abuse. She didn’t know who she was, or where she belonged.

Sabrina joined me to talk about why she’s decided it’s time to speak out about rural racism. The impact of growing up in a place where literally no-one looked like her and How she finally found the identity she craved. Sabrina is incredibly frank about burying herself in workaholism and alcoholism, her battles with anxiety, and how learning to run - after a lifetime of mocking runners! - saved her. If you’re looking for motivation to start running look no further. In fact, if you’re looking for motivation full stop, you’ve found it.

You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at Bookshop.org, including BLACK SHEEP by Sabrina Pace-Humphreys, and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me!

And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including transcripts of the podcast, please join The Shift community. Find out more at https://theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com/

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode first aired in autumn 2022. I'm replaying it now because Dawn's new memoir, Hungry Eyes, borne of her love of food (and her Celebrity Masterchef almost triumph!) is out now...

My guest today has packed a helluva lot into her 43 years. Dawn O’Porter started her career in TV production, before finding her way in front of the camera to host a series of attention-grabbing documentaries on everything from polygamy to Dirty Dancing. By the time she hit her 30s, like many women, Dawn was moving faster and faster to stand still. By the time she was married (to the actor Chris O’Dowd) with the first of her two sons, running a vintage fashion label and the refugee charity now known as Choose Love - AND writing books - she realised something had to give!

In this case, that was Dawn herself. She is now a full-time author of eight books including the Richard and Judy pick So Lucky and her latest, Cat Lady - a funny and frank look at the boxes we squeeze ourselves into to try to fit other people’s expectations.

Dawn joined me from her home in LA to discuss the cats-in-the-bedroom conundrum, what she learnt from launching and losing a business, why the need to be liked is exhausting and how ageing helped her recognise her own value. We also talked Botox, whether perimenopause makes you smell strange and why she’ll never stop advocating for kaftans! 

Hankering after a Cat Lady jumper like Dawn's? Visit Joanieclothing.com.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at Bookshop.org, including Hungry Eyes by Dawn O'Porter and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me!

* And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including transcripts of the podcast, please consider joining The Shift community. Find out more at https://theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com/

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Emily Sandford. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode first aired last autumn, but I'm replaying it now because last week Lyse won The Women's Prize for Non-Fiction for her remarkable people's history of Afghanistan, The Finest Hotel in Kabul...

My guest today is the BBC’s Chief International Correspondent, Lyse Doucet.

Since starting work at the corporation almost forty years ago, Lyse has covered all the major wars in the Middle East, reporting from Afghanistan Iraq Iran Jordan Israel Pakistan Egypt Libya and most recently Gaza. And that’s before we get started on the rest of the world. Sudan. The tsunami in Indonesia. And you may well remember her reporting on the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022 from a rooftop in Kyiv.

When we spoke Lyse had recently made it back to Canada via the Egypt/Gaza border, before heading to the UK to promote her first book, The Finest Hotel in Kabul, a quietly devastating, utterly humane look at a history of the people of Afghanistan, told through the staff of the Intercontinental in Kabul where Lyse has been staying since 1988. When she first checked in, the day after her 30th birthday, the man on reception asked her how long she’d be staying, she guessed six weeks… she’s been there on and off ever since.

Lyse joined me for a fascinating free range conversation about her extraordinary life and career. We talked about finding her north star, why gender is irrelevant when it comes to reporting war, what nobody tells you about kindness, the moment she realised her job was going to come first in her life, the power and importance of female friendship in a war zone and why even sometimes reporters have to look away.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, including The Finest Hotel in Kabul by Lyse Doucet as well as the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by Sam Baker.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠buymeacoffee.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

• The Shift is created, hosted and produced by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls at Pineapple Audio Productions.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices