The VBAC Link

Achieving your VBAC is an accomplishment worth celebrating, but it's also important to hold space for processing the difficult moments.

Pat joins us today to share how she birthed both of her babies over the age of 40 as well as how she found a supportive team to go for her VBAC.

She shares the importance of paying attention to your feelings when choosing a provider even if everyone around you feels differently. Pat experienced some traumatic events during her VBAC which left her feeling grateful for the outcome desired but unexpectedly having to grieve the loss of what she thought would be a dreamy and empowering experience.

Additional Links

Pat’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hey guys, this is Meagan. I’m so excited for another amazing story. We are actually going to be talking about something that I don’t feel like we talk about a ton and it’s going to be pregnancy after 40. Even really 36, right? I feel like in the medical world, 36 is old. I’m doing air quotes because it’s such an annoying thing to be but we are going to talk about that. Pregnancy after 40 and what that looks like and how that may feel for someone. 

We have our friend, Pat, today from L.A. She’s going to be sharing her stories. She did have a VBAC and we talk about this often on social media and things like that where people may have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean and it’s the most healing, amazing, beautiful experience and then sometimes it’s not. So I’m excited to hear from Pat today and hear more about her experience. 

Review of the Week

But of course, we have a Review of the Week so I’m going to make sure to get into that before Pat starts sharing her story. Just a fair reminder, if you guys have a chance, if you would please leave us a review, we love your reviews as you know. We talk about it all the time but really, they make us smile so much and we love reading them on the podcast. So push pause and go leave a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

This specific review is from Sarah. She doesn’t have a subject on it but she says, “I am a birth and postpartum doula who is always on the search for a birthy podcast to listen to in my car. I was so excited when I found The VBAC Link so I could listen to these amazing stories from women all around the world who reached their goals through becoming educated thanks to Meagan and Julie. I recently certified with The VBAC Link as well and I’m impressed by the thorough delivery with which their knowledge was shared in the training. I’m super excited to move into the next chapter of my career and I’m so thrilled to do so with an amazing community and support.” 

Sarah, I love it. Thank you so much. It is so awesome to have you as one of our VBAC doulas. Birth workers, if you didn’t know out there, we actually have a birth worker course on how to support your VBAC clients because again, we talk about it. It shouldn’t be anything more than just someone going in to have a baby, but with vaginal birth after Cesarean or a Cesarean I should say, and wanting to go for vaginal birth after Cesarean, there are hurdles that a lot of clients have to jump through. It’s so nice to learn how to support them so we have a certification course and we add you to our doula list and share you with the world. 

So parents, if you are looking for a VBAC doula, go to thevbaclink.com/findadoula and see if there’s a doula near you. 

Pat’s Stories

Meagan: Okay, Pat. I can’t wait. Thank you so much for taking the time today to be with us. 

Pat: No, thank you for inviting me. I’m so excited. This podcast has been such a big and helpful thing to prepare for my VBAC so thank you for that.

Meagan: Absolutely, well I’d love to turn the time over to you. 

Pat: Yeah, I am Spanish so that’s why I have a weird accent but I’ve been living in L.A. for the last ten years with my husband. I have two kids now. One is two and a half and the other one is going to turn ten months in just a little bit. 

My journey started really late or later than other people here in the states. I always knew I wanted to be a mother but then I saw my friends having kids and saw what that really means to your life, so for a little bit, I was trying to decide whether I could really take on motherhood or not. I knew that if I were to be a mother, it would be in my late thirties. I really wanted to push it which makes sense now because if I hadn’t done that then, I would have different kids. I really believe in destiny and these kids were meant to be for me. So I think I’m happy with that. 

With that also came a lot of stress from the doctors. All this talk about the extra risks and how difficult or impossible it was going to be to get pregnant at 39. My journey, thank God, wasn’t that hard. I had an IUD, a copper IUD, and I took it out in January 2019. For the first three months, I didn’t get pregnant, but I also had weird pain and my period was really strange. I had an ultrasound and they saw that actually, I had an IUD inside of me even though they took it out. 

Meagan: What?!

Pat: Yeah. It was so bizarre. I don’t want to get into details because it will take us the whole hour, but what happened was that someone along the way, and I had an IUD since I was 20 because I had DBT and I couldn’t take hormones so that was the way I chose to go. In those years, someone forgot to take out the old IUD and just pushed a new IUD inside of me. 

Meagan: Oh my land. 

Pat: It was crazy to discover that. So anyway, they took it out and three months after that, I was pregnant. That was October-November I think of 2019. So it was fairly quick for my age and everything. I was thrilled. My pregnancy also was super healthy. I did have certain things here and there but nothing that a younger person wouldn’t have. I barely had any morning sickness or anything. I did have a couple of weird symptoms. One of them was palpitations. I didn’t know that I had them and then towards the middle of my pregnancy, I started having not fainting, but lightheaded episodes where I really had to lay down in the street when I was walking my dog around several times 

We discovered that it was something regarding my breakfast really, so I had a thing for toast with peanut butter in the morning and I guess the way my blood sugar was doing something weird and I was really almost fainting in the street. Once a doctor told me to actually change that for protein and to have protein first in the morning. Immediately, that disappeared. 

Other than that, everything was great. I was feeling super beautiful with my pregnant belly and I was going for an unmedicated birth. I was really preparing mentally and physically for it. I did Hypnobabies. I was really in my head. I was obsessed with it as a friend of mine recommended me to be if I wanted to achieve it. I was doing all of the work. Everything was going great. 

Of course, we get into 2020. COVID comes in. My husband was able to still come into the 20-week ultrasound which was awesome, but after that I was alone and there was a lot of stress added to the pregnancy. I feel like it was toward the end of my third trimester that I don’t know why, but my mind started to lose its balance. All of the fear about motherhood came crashing down and the last few weeks, they were full of excitement but also fear. Everybody was like, “Are you so excited?” I was like, “Yeah, but I’m also so scared.” I felt guilty. I couldn’t talk to anyone about that. Because I was scared, people would think I am a bad mother or I’m going to be a bad mother. 

Anyways, we didn’t hire a doula which is important in this birth story because of COVID but I guess I didn’t know that I was going to need her so much. The doctor told me towards the end of the pregnancy that he was OP but that he could still move. I would feel the baby. He didn’t have space. I could feel that my belly was so tight. I didn’t think that he was going to move. I didn’t know anything about helping him position more than a couple of exercises I saw on Spinning Babies. 

When the birth started, it was after my 40-week appointment. I wasn’t very dilated. My doctor checked me and I was 1 centimeter and then she said that I wouldn’t probably go into labor for a few days. But then the next day, I woke up with contractions. They were light and just like period cramps every ten minutes. So I was excited but I also was in denial. “This cannot be. I’m only 1 centimeter,” which didn’t matter at all. I’ve learned that now. 

During the whole day, they went like that. They progressed a little bit in how painful they were, but they were ten minutes apart. Nothing was really happening so I just kept going. I had heard of prodromal labor, so I thought that maybe this was not it. By the time I went to bed, they were 7-10 minutes apart, but they were not super painful but painful enough that I couldn’t sleep during the whole night. 

Meagan: So tired, I’m sure. 

Pat: So tired. This was a Friday. So Saturday, it just kept going the same. Actually, the contractions got a little bit weirder. Instead of coming down and getting a pardon, they were all over like seven minutes to ten, five, and they were getting more and more intense as I would go but still, nothing was happening. Basically that night, I tried everything because I called my doctor and she confirmed that it could be prodromal labor. I had the feeling that it wasn’t, that it was labor that was not progressing because nothing would stop it, not any bath, nothing. 

So that night, I took some Benadryl and could sleep between contractions, but it was a few minutes here and there. But the next day, it was Sunday. I was so tired and then up to this point, I had been trying to move forward with this pregnancy and this birth. I would do exercises but at this point, I was scared because I thought, “I am going to get caught up in this level of pain for two more weeks and I just don’t think I can take it.” I tried to slow it down. I wanted to wait basically. I was also losing my mind a little bit. It was my third day with very little sleep. I didn’t know what was going on. I didn’t know how to cope with contractions, or how to breathe properly. This is where a doula, I think, would have made a difference. 

Obviously, my baby was not coming down, and just having someone with me that would have helped me position the baby better, I think, would have made a difference but it was what it was at this point. So another night without sleeping and we are on Monday now. The doctor tried to convince me to go in for a membrane sweep, but I really couldn’t get out of the house, so again, I lived in the bath. I was in the bath, in the bath, in the bath. Finally, my water broke a little bit. There was a gush of water but it was yellow. That’s how I could see it. I didn’t know what that meant, but obviously, it meant that there was some meconium. 

So my doctor told me that since my water broke, she felt comfortable waiting until the next day, but I had to be in the hospital at 7:00 AM on Tuesday. By that night, I think it was 1:00 in the morning when the pain was so bad and my mind was so out of it. I was even regretting being pregnant at this point. Just get me out of here. So basically, I told my husband, “Let’s just go because I don’t know what this is. I want an unmedicated birth but if this is nothing then I really need help because I just cannot go on like this anymore.” 

So we got there. The triage was horrible. It was hours until I was checked in. Discovering that I was only 3 centimeters was crushing, to say the least. Once I was there, I knew that an epidural would help me sleep and that’s what I needed. So by that time, they still did walking epidurals which I don’t know why they call it that because they don’t let you walk anyways. 

Meagan: It’s just a lighter epidural essentially. 

Pat: I know, but they should change the name. Definitely. So that really helped me. I slept for an hour and when my doctor came and checked me in the morning, I was 5 centimeters. I was at 0 station. Basically, the doctor said because of the circumstances, she thought that I had to be around a 6 by the time she came back later on. I thought it was achievable. I had a whole morning. By that time also, I had developed a lot of pain in my left side and in my right side. The right was a sciatica type of pain and the left was just my lower back. It was hurting a lot like my kidney type of thing. 

I was drinking water and drinking water and I just couldn’t get satiated. I kept laboring in bed. They didn’t mention the OP baby. They didn’t offer a peanut ball. Nothing, so I was there just surviving in bed. They wouldn’t let me get up, so I would sneak in between visits from the nurse and get up with my husband a little bit because I would feel my legs and everything. I needed to get up because it was so excruciating, the pain in my back when I was laying down. 

The doctor came at 3:00 PM and I was again 5 centimeters. Her fear of infection was clearly high. She was scared for me even if nothing really was happening. At that point, my water really, really, really broke and there was this green, thick layer. It was full of meconium coming out of me which I knew was only a matter of watching it. It didn’t mean that I could not have a vaginal birth, but it was a little concerning. 

The doctor convinced me to take Pitocin at that point. I started that at 3:30 and the pain in my sides increased. It was more and more difficult to try to stay in bed. A few hours later, I think it was around 9:00 PM, I had blood pressure issues. Everything was starting to pile up. There was a little bit of protein in my urine, but I had been given so many different infusions of liquids that my doctor chose to change one first before giving me my other medicine to see if that worked. That worked, but by that time, for someone who didn’t want any interventions, I was full of tubes everywhere to my uterus with a catheter, it was just really bizarre. 

During that time, I also had a resident come in. She was the chief of residents and she was one of the sources of my trauma really in the hospital because she was really disrespectful to me not only in her comments. When she saw me in pain, she said, “Oh, you wanted a natural birth so I don’t know what you expected,” and things like that. Also, she came and checked me and she really hurt me. I asked her to stop and instead of stopping, she pushed harder inside of me. 

Meagan: Oh!

Pat: I didn’t even know how to react to that because she ignored me and she kept doing it even harder. I felt so violated by that and that just stayed with me. 

Meagan: I’m so sorry. 

Pat: Yeah, it was crazy. I continued laboring and the blood pressure resolved. The kidney was failing. They said it was damaged. That was why the protein was coming out on the tests. But with that change of liquids that they gave me, apparently, it just made it better. The pain was still there, but the protein disappeared. My blood pressure came down and that was really it. Around 10:30, following my notes, apparently, the baby’s heart dropped. It lasted more than eight minutes, but it wasn’t a big drop. That was also my first experience with everyone coming into the room screaming. This is another thing. I saw this chief resident talking to my husband about what was happening to me but no one was talking to me. They were yelling at me, “On all fours!”

That was after I got up and they saw me up, so they were also yelling at me, “What did you do? This is all you. Go back to bed.” I was so scared. Yeah, but nobody was explaining to me what was happening. Luckily, they got that under control and then they explained to me what had happened. They told me to lay on my side really, really still. On that side, it really, really hurt almost like torture. A really well-designed torture. They had stopped Pitocin and they restarted it an hour later. Everything was going well, but again, after a couple of hours, there was another deceleration. We are now at 4:00 AM so it is 24 hours after I had gotten to the hospital. 

This one was shorter, but it was deeper. I was only 6 centimeters when I had it. I couldn’t even picture myself having a baby frozen in this position. “You cannot do this. You cannot do that.” How am I going to birth a baby then? I was really sad, but I didn’t see any other way out. I had my cry with my husband and then we just went to the OR. 

It wasn’t an emergency, so we had a minute to process. It was something that needed to be done. My doctor was great at talking to me. This was the first time that she actually came to the hospital after 24 hours, so once she was there, I didn’t have to deal with the chief resident. She is always really respectful and she always talks to me about everything before making a decision so that was great and helped me calm. 

The surgery went great, but I was so out of it. For example, when they were going to pull out the baby, they lowered the curtain but I couldn’t see. I couldn’t even say it. I didn’t see it. I couldn’t see and I said, “Okay,” then I turned and looked at my husband and at his face. He was looking at our baby being born which also was beautiful, but I was really, really out of it. I think it took them 15 minutes or so to bring the baby. They also raised him, but I only saw the legs. I remember him crying and just realizing that I actually had a baby. It’s a real baby and not a fish that was inside of my belly. It was pretty great. 

Then they wheeled me into recovery and I was in a lot of pain, but my husband recalls actually that when they brought the baby, he actually said, “I thought you were dying but then they brought the baby and put him on your chest and you were fine.” I didn’t remember that but I keep that as a memory because I thought that was one of the most beautiful things that happened. He also crawled to my breast which was really great. 

Meagan: Yay. That’s really cool because a lot of times with Cesareans, they don’t allow that to happen so that’s really cool. 

Pat: Right. No, they were really good at giving me the baby as soon as they could. I also held him in the OR but I wasn’t feeling great and then they took him back. But then this nurse came and without saying anything. I’m in this beautiful moment. The baby latches. I’m just enjoying it and this woman starts punching me in the uterus basically. That’s how it felt. Massaging me and I screamed like I’ve never screamed in my life. It hurt so much. I asked her. Again, she didn’t say anything. I asked her, “What are you doing?” She said, “I have to do this because it’s either this or you’re going to bleed to death.” I said, “But I’m not hemorrhaging or anything. That was just another thing that really impacted me. 

Meagan: That sticks in your mind, yeah. 

Pat: Exactly. The flashbacks come afterward. It might not sound like a big deal, but it is a big deal. It’s a really big deal. We went to the room and after that, everything was beautiful getting to know our baby and naming him because we knew that he was a boy but we had different names. He was great. He was drinking. He was wetting the diaper but then because of all of the liquids that I got, first of all, he was 8 pounds, 12 ounces when he was born but almost a pound of that or half a pound of that was liquid. He was so swollen. 

Meagan: Yes. I want to talk about that because a lot of people don’t realize that’s a thing. We have long labors and we receive a lot of fluid or we receive a lot of antibiotics and all of these fluids, it can actually make our baby bigger than they actually are. So yeah. It’s crazy. You have to have an 8-pound baby come out, but then they’re 7 pounds. It’s scary because it looks like they’ve dropped so much weight and then you’re not thinking that you are feeding your baby right and they’re not getting enough milk when actually, they’re getting rid of that excess fluid. 

Pat: That was part of the problem. It’s crazy that they don’t know it. 

Meagan: They don’t talk about that. 

Pat: The problem was that he was losing so much weight because he was getting out of the liquids but in the process because apparently, all of the liquids threw his pH off so he was dehydrated. He was eating normally but he was dehydrated. After another day, his diaper was dry. I told the nurse, “I don’t think this is normal.” She was like, “No, no. This is normal. Don’t worry.” I was like, “Okay. I guess maybe babies are like that.” But then we had a great lactation consultant and she noticed that he was breathing really fast. 

They had to take him to the NICU just because of dehydration. It was another setback on the happy ending type of thing. But luckily, he only spent the night and a morning there and he was okay. We took him home. This was already day number four in the hospital. From then on, he thrived. We had to do for a little bit, I think it’s called a [inaudible] feeding thing just to make sure he was gaining weight but it was really obvious from the get-go that my milk was enough for him and he was good with it so after a week, we weaned him out of the bottle and he was only breastfeeding, gaining weight, and everything was great. 

Yeah, I had a lot of emotions but my postpartum was really good. I think that has a lot to do with my placenta encapsulation but I will never know I guess. 

Meagan: I know. I love placenta encapsulation myself. So yeah. 

Pat: So yeah, second baby. I remember a nurse in my room. I was actually getting wheeled to the OR and I had a nurse talking to me, “Don’t worry, honey. You can have a VBAC.” I was like, “I don’t know about this VBAC, but I’m telling you that I’m not having more kids.” 

So that VBAC thing stuck with me. I started having baby fever really early on like six months postpartum. I thought my baby was so cute, I thought, “I want another baby.” My husband was a little resistant but I knew that I was going to convince him so in the meantime, I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. It was a great source of learning. I’ve always loved birth stories, but this was really specific. Listening to so many Cesarean stories, I could also understand better what happened to me and maybe make a plan for why I didn’t want it to repeat again in the future. 

When I got pregnant, I got pregnant on the first try. I just want to say it again because I was 42 at the time. I was 41.5. I turned 42 when I was pregnant. Age doesn’t have to be an impediment to having kids. Every person is a person. Statistics don’t represent you. I want people to have hope for that. This pregnancy went also really well. The symptoms were a little bit worse. I didn’t have extreme nausea or anything, but it was a little bit worse. Not too bad, but a little bit worse. I hear that happens with second babies and third. 

At this moment, what I was more focused on was my VBAC. Of course, I wanted to go unmedicated too, but I really wanted to do everything possible to have a vaginal birth. I hired this doula. I live in L.A. and there is this famous doctor who everyone goes to. I thought, “I love my doctor, but she already was talking about how she follows a certain procedure at the hospital.” At 39 weeks, she recommended being induced and all of that stuff. I just thought, “She’s great, but I really want to have the best chance. If they call this guy the king of VBACs, shouldn’t I go with him?” I went with him and he was really hopeful about my VBAC. He has a weird personality. He’s really nice but at the same time, he is just not everyone’s cup of tea and not my cup of tea in a lot of different things. 

I had a little bit of a red flag for certain things that he was trying to force on me. When I would tell him, “I don’t want this or I don’t want that,” he would just get mad basically and try to push it. I was going away from having to convince my doctors of what I wanted for my birth so I landed on a guy who was supposed to be– it felt to me at the time– the only way of having a VBAC and having to have the same fights with him, it felt really confusing. I think it’s really important to know that because a provider might be VBAC-supportive, it doesn’t mean that they are not also intervention-supportive which is what happened with this guy basically. 

I continued with him because I was really scared to not have my VBAC unless I was with him. 

Meagan: Right, because everybody around is like, “Go here.” 

Pat: Yeah, and here’s another thing. I could find maybe one or two medium reviews, but all of the reviews about him in all of the VBAC groups were like, “No, this is a great guy.” 

Meagan: This is the person, yeah. 

Pat: People don’t want to tell bad stories. They don’t want to talk badly about the doctor then what are you doing then? You are just protecting this doctor. You are not protecting women or people that are birthing. 

Meagan: Well, and what’s hard too is even though one provider may be very VBAC-supportive and be very cohesive with that patient, it doesn’t mean that he or she is going to be an amazing VBAC-supportive doctor, but may not still fit the same desires. They can be VBAC-supportive but they might not be the right provider for everybody else. 

Pat: Yes, yes. I wish I could have read a little bit more about him because then just talking to other women in the group privately, they would say, “Yeah,” and most of the people had a good experience with him, but I wish I would have been able to read or find these reviews because that maybe would have made a difference in trying to find another VBAC-supportive provider. But I stuck with him. 

Everything went well. I had no problems that could have been related to age or problems at all. It was a normal, healthy pregnancy. I had been really careful of my positioning during the pregnancy so baby wouldn’t be OP but he was OP too. By that time, we didn’t know he was a he. I knew that it doesn’t matter he’s OP. It’s another baby. It’s another birth. I have a doula now. If I get stuck in another 4-day or 5-day birth, this person is going to help me get through it. I believe I can do it. I just need help. That’s it. 

Meagan: Well, and it would probably shorten it because they would probably know and have some tools that would hopefully help. 

Pat: Which she did because my story, with this second baby went really similarly. I actually was 39 weeks pregnant this time. I don’t know if it was all of the cleaning I did or my two-year-old, my one-year-old then had this huge tantrum, one that he never had. He cried in my arms for two hours and I felt my first contraction when I was with him. From there, it started the same way. Really low-key, a cramping feeling that went a little bit up during the day but nothing was happening either. 

But then at night, I tried to sleep and I was in so much pain. I was having really huge contractions. We are still cosleeping basically. My toddler was there. My husband was there and my body didn’t feel free enough to move things forward. My husband had me labor during the night, but in the morning, it went down. The contractions, I didn’t even time but in the morning they were back to 7-10 minutes and less painful but still really intense. I remember I kept cleaning. I did a set of exercises to get things going from Spinning Babies. 

Meagan: Three Sisters? 

Pat: The [inaudible] one. 

Meagan: Oh, yes. I know what you’re talking about. 

Pat: There were a bunch of exercises you could do so I did all of them. Here’s another thing that I recommend to people who have had trauma in their first births. I thought, “I’ve got it.” I thought, “I have processed this. I am okay.” I even wrote a script about witches. It’s named The Resident. I thought I had processed it but I didn’t so when things were really starting to get similar to my first birth, my mind got out of whack. I lost it and I remember crying to my sister-in-law, “This is the same as with Liam. It’s going to be five days. I’m going to end with a Cesarean.” Totally negativity that I didn’t need at that moment. 

Meagan: You spiraled. Yeah. I did that too. 

Pat: I spiraled, yeah. So you really need to process your first birth before going into a VBAC. But I could feel that things were different. I felt the body recharge that I never had. I could feel my hips hurting a lot which meant something was happening down there so that kept me hopeful. My husband told me, “Listen. I saw you with our first. This is different. You are so much more advanced right now. You never got to this point.” 

Meagan: But in your mind, you’re relating to what you know. 

Pat: I know and also your mind is not a rational mind in that moment. It is full of fear and you’ve been told that you cannot do this, so why would you think you can do it? That’s where your mind goes in that moment. My doula came finally that afternoon and she had me breathe through the contractions which I think was key because from there on, I could relax with them and I got in the bath and everything felt more controlled. 

One of the things that she actually had me do for the last couple of months before the birth was sleeping with two or three pillows in between my legs as if it was a peanut ball or a peanut ball. I had a bunch of pillows. I feel like that was key too because my hips are not too wide for how tall I am. I feel that keeping my hips open really helped this time. 

That night, the second night, I went to bed with a Benadryl again and I woke up at 1:00 or so. I was in a lot of pain. Really big contractions that you couldn’t sleep through. Again, I went to the bath and the counterpressure really helped. It really, really helped. It was one of the things that helped me the most. I had the HypnoBabies in my first pregnancy, but it never got to really help me at all. It’s really funny just singing a song in my mind. It was Yellow by Coldplay. Not even loud in my mind. Every contraction and that was it. I could go through them. It was just crazy. 

Meagan: I did the same thing with Believe by Whitney Houston. 

Pat: It was a random song also. 

Meagan: “If you believe,” and singing it in my head, and then I ended up making a slideshow video with that song. It just connected to me. 

Pat: That’s so cute. Yeah. It was magic. I think it was 3:00 or 4:00 AM in the morning. It was intense enough that I thought, “If I keep going then I might have him in the car.” I would feel different things in my hips. I could feel a little bit of the movement going down. It was like, “No, no. This is different.” I’m now going to get there and I’m going to be just 3 centimeters. If not, I don’t understand birth at all. 

So we went to the hospital. It was 40 minutes away, 30 with traffic. It was bad but not horrible because of Coldplay. When I got there, it was amazing because I had a really strong contraction and the nurses just put me in a room. 

Meagan: You didn’t have to be in triage for 3 hours. 

Pat: If you go to the hospital, just have a really, really, really big contraction so you don’t have to wait there for 3 hours. So yeah, I got checked. I of course didn’t want a resident around me so I had a midwife team. The midwife checked me and I was 10 centimeters she said but I had a bulging bag so I was 8 centimeters. 

Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes a bag can overstretch the cervix and then the bag breaks and the cervix relaxes. It seems like they check and they’re like, “We don’t feel any cervix,” but then the bag goes away and they’re like, “Oh. There’s some cervix left.” So that’s probably what happened. 

Pat: I was not even defeated because I thought, “I am still 8 centimeters. I never made it through 6.” 

Meagan: Huge. Huge. Yeah. 

Pat: I was so proud of myself, but I must say that when I got there, I was walking into the room and my doctor came in. He looked so tired. He had two births before me. What he said was, “Don’t tell me you are in labor.” I’m like, “I am in labor.” You could tell he was not there. He was tired which I understand, but I still feel like you have to be professional. You cannot tell that to a birthing woman. That’s where the problems with him started. It didn’t feel good but I forgot about it. I had my midwife and I was mostly laboring with her. He would just come in and out. 

I thought I was doing it. I didn’t want an epidural. I was laboring in the room. I was really tired, but the baby also was really high like -3. He was not down but it didn’t worry me too much. I kept going. I kept going for two or three hours. In between, my doctor came and checked me but there was no progress. At some point, I guess I wasn’t coping as well. I think I was just getting into transition because in between contractions, I was like, “Ohh,” like kind of fainting. I felt like my body needed rest. Two days laboring with this kid felt much more than five days laboring with my other kid, so I don’t know. 

My doula suddenly said, “You know, I know you want an unmedicated birth, but I just don’t think you are going to progress if you don’t take the epidural.” I understand she said that because she was scared for me not to have my VBAC but also, I feel like it was early in the game. Why don’t we try other things before that? 

But it was true because basically what I thought– my husband though was my huge supporter. He was like, “No, no, no. You’re doing great. You can do this. You can do this.” He still tells me nowadays, “If you could have heard me and not the doula–”. I was like, “Supposedly, doulas have so much experience–”. 

Meagan: Sometimes, an epidural is a great tool. There’s this spot where we get in labor where we’re tense and we’re not really letting our body go, so an epidural can come into great play and allow us to finish out that cervix and that dilation and that process, but yeah. If you didn’t want one then there are other things you could do. Different positioning and coping and breathing and water. 

Pat: I think that’s what she saw. She saw that I was too tense and that was not going to go anywhere. So I said, “Okay. I’m going to wait half an hour and if I did not progress, then I will consider it. It would be the right thing. It makes sense.” This was almost four hours from the moment we got there. When we got checked, I hadn’t progressed and I accepted the epidural. 

Meagan: Did your water break? Was it bulging and then they broke it or was it still bulging? 

Pat: The doctor broke it a little bit but just enough so that it would just come out a little bit and come down, but he didn’t break my waters completely. They actually broke when I was laboring in the room. It was really funny because it was gallons of clear water which was a different experience. It was like, “This is so clear. This is so clear.” But it was gallons and gallons of water coming out of my body. It was crazy. 

But yeah. After the epidural, I rested. At that point, they didn’t have the option of the walking epidural anymore so it was a normal epidural but I could still feel my legs and a little bit of pressure. It was good but I could rest. I couldn’t sleep but I could rest. Two or three hours after that, I was already at a 9.5 and I had a cervical lip. Oh, in between that also– this is an important piece of information. These are things I want to forget so I forget to tell them. 

The doctor came in. He was coming in and out. This was probably at 12:30 or 1:00. He said, “Well, I have a dinner at 5:30 so we need to start pushing at 2:00.” I’m like, “Okay.” And he left. I didn’t know if it was a joke or if it was true but it turns out that he really had a family dinner at 5:30. It turns out that also I was ready and I was almost ready to push, but I was fully dilated by 1:30. That lip really went away. The midwife put me on my side and it was great. She was amazing. I wish everything would have happened just with her. 

I started pushing. The pushing phase was really weird to me because I was expecting it to feel good and they were like, “Okay, you’re ready to push. Do you want to push?” I was like, “I guess.” 

Meagan: Disconnected. 

Pat: Disconnected. Totally disconnected like, “What am I doing here? I don’t understand what’s happening.” I pushed for an hour or so. I asked for the mirror to see what was happening. That was cool but also got me a little bit discouraged because I could see the little advancement with the push. When I was more advanced or ready, they called the doctor. The baby was doing fine. He had a couple of moments where his heartbeat was taking a little longer to come back, so I could see my midwife calling the doctor, but he wasn’t concerned so we kept going. 

I think it was one hour into pushing that he came and turned on the lights, propped me up, changed the way I was pushing, and just sat in front of me with a boring face and said, “Okay, let’s see.” It was just not the kind of person you wanted there. 

Meagan: Impersonal, yeah. 

Pat: Yeah, really impersonal. He was also yelling at people like the nurses. He was in a really bad mood. Yeah. Everything was getting weird. I already had this weird feeling of, “What is happening?” I don’t know. I cannot really describe that but it was this fight or flight mode that you get when you’re birthing that makes your baby come. That’s what started happening to me. The thing is that I kept pushing and pushing and pushing and little by little, there was some progress. 

At some point though, he started to mention how he wanted me to get a little bit more of the epidural, but I talked to my doula and to my husband. I really wanted to feel what was happening, but then he kept going on about how if I had the epidural it was going to be better because he was going to have to stitch me and then, “Oh, that hurts a lot,” and then this and this and this. He kept going into my head. I really regret this, but I let him convince me and I got a little bit more of the epidural. 

At that point, all of the pressure disappeared. I could feel but yet I couldn’t feel as much. After that, when the epidural was already in, he said, “You know what? The head of the baby is coming in and out, in and out, in and out. What if I take a vacuum and I use in only just to hold the head of the baby in the same space in between contractions?” I had heard this on a birth story. It worked for the mother. This was two and a half hours into pushing so I said, “Yes, yes. Let’s do it,” because I could see in the mirror that that was true and that was happening. 

He put the vacuum on and they closed– I don’t know. I closed my eyes and when I opened them because everyone was telling me, “Open them. Open your eyes. The baby is coming.” He’s basically yanking the baby out of me. This is all how I felt that it happened. I’m sure the other side is different. This is where my problem comes with this VBAC and it’s just that I felt I was tricked into using an intervention that I didn’t want. The baby was born at 4:45 basically. 

Meagan: Right before dinner. 

Pat: The other thing is that he had the baby. The baby was crying. It was a boy which was super exciting to discover. He was pink and one of the other things I had told him was that I wanted that baby on my stomach. One of the things I missed in my other birth was the feeling of this high when they put the baby on your chest and he knew. I had told him so many times. He had the baby and he kept cleaning him up, cleaning him up, cleaning him up. I have a file of pictures where I’m holding out my hands to grab him and I retract them until I just snatched the baby out of him basically. 

Meagan: Give me my baby. Give me my baby. 

Pat: Give me my baby. Give me my baby. I breathed out this moment of rage and I could be present with my baby. I welcomed him and everything was great. From that moment on, nobody took him away from me. I held him and he felt so familiar. I felt like our family was complete. At least that feeling wasn’t taken away from me, just the joy of welcoming my baby. 

Everything in the postpartum was great, but I really struggled. I struggled a little bit. I don’t think it was depression but the baby blues were really hard on me for 2-3 weeks. I couldn’t stop crying all the time. I would remember my VBAC and I felt really guilty. I even remember the midwife, “You got your VBAC. You got your VBAC.” It was like, “Yeah, I got my VBAC.” I’m glad. I didn’t want a C-section, but this is not what I wanted. I feel so robbed. I feel robbed and it’s so bad of a feeling to have. 

Meagan: Yeah. You did. You got your VBAC. Everybody on the outside is like, “Yay. This is what you wanted,” but it was very traumatic getting there. It was really positive and then it took a spin and things happened to you that reflected not as positively. We’ve talked about this back when Julie and I were together too. You can be grateful for your vaginal birth after a Cesarean. You can be grateful for your CBAC, your Cesarean birth after Cesarean. You can be grateful for your birth, but that doesn’t mean you can’t grieve another experience or be upset. You don’t have to have one without the other. They can go together. Unfortunately, you have this space now where you’re like, “Yeah, I did, but I reflect differently than everyone might think.”

Pat: Yeah. I feel like all the work that I did, he just took it away from me because he was in a rush and it wasn’t necessary. 

Meagan: Yeah, I’m so sorry. 

Pat: I’m processing it. You can focus on the positive things, but it’s not great. 

Meagan: Well, congratulations on your baby boy. 

Pat: Thank you. 

Meagan: But yeah, I think that’s something to note and it’s so hard. We as doulas here had a client who said the same thing, “I knew I didn’t want this. We went over this with you. We all went over it, but for some reason, I just went with what the doctor said.” It’s so hard not to. We are in this very vulnerable space and they have this way sometimes– I’m not going to say all the time– but projecting this, “You have to make decisions right now” or “You have to do this or this scary thing will happen.” 

I don’t think that they really realize how their speaking to us impacts us as birthing women, but it does. It does. The things they say and even like you said, he sat down and gave you a blank stare. “All right, let’s see what we can do here.” Just that right there takes away from someone’s space. Providers, doulas, if you are listening, anybody who is entering a birth space, please make sure that whatever is going on in your personal life, whatever is taking over at that moment, leave it at the door. I know it’s hard. I know it’s hard. As a doula, if there’s ever a situation where I have that, I might need to call my partner because if I can’t shut that off and join this beautiful space and hold space for my clients, then maybe I shouldn’t be there. 

It’s hard because these providers are just going to be there but we have to be mindful. We have to be more mindful of how we present ourselves, what comes out of our mouths, and again, the actions that are done to us because they impact us so much. So I’m sorry that that did happen and I’m sorry that along the way, you had to go back and forth in everything. I am happy for you but at the same time, I grieve with you. I feel you.

I am so sorry. So sorry, but congratulations at the same time. 

Pat: Thank you so much. I feel like you really understand. When I’m telling this story, not everybody understands why it hurt me so much. I feel that you and your community probably will understand. 

Meagan: Absolutely. We understand. We hear you. We feel you. We’ve been there. I really appreciate you and I know you are 10 months postpartum, but we’re still here. We’re still here to help you heal through this journey. 

Pat: Thank you so much.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, ‘I’m going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.’”

Though Heather’s two birth outcomes were very different, the most inspiring part is what Heather fought for within herself. Heather went from knowing she had a voice and being afraid to use it to knowing her voice and making sure it was heard. 

In the depths of depression and anxiety, Heather continued to be proactive and choose healing. Through vulnerability, therapy, patient advocacy, medication, and staying attentive to her needs, Heather’s second postpartum experience was drastically better than the first. 

Additional Links

Heather's Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link, guys. This is Meagan, your host, and today we have our friend Heather. She is from Kentucky and she is sharing her amazing story. One of the highlights of her story that we’re going to be talking about is postpartum depression which is something I’m really excited to talk more about because postpartum in general and Heather, maybe you would agree, I feel like it’s even more sometimes in preparing for a VBAC because we’re so hyper-focused on the birth and having this vaginal birth and avoiding a Cesarean and all of the interventions. I mean, really. We’re just so hyper-focused that we forget what comes after. 

Not just recovery after, but mentally and physically. All of the things, and so I’m really excited that you are going to touch on this today and I already want to thank you for your knowledge because I’m excited to hear what you have to say. 

Review of the Week

Okay, I have a review of the week and then we’re going to go into it. Does that sound good? 

Heather: Great. 

Meagan: This is actually a review of The VBAC Link course. This is from Ashley and she says, “TOLAC/VBACs should be treated just like any other birthing person but there is a certain preparation and information that needs to be offered to them and this course covered that. The value is held in your careful recognition of how to best support our clients who are doing a TOLAC.” I’m assuming Ashley is reviewing the doula course in this one. She says, “I cannot praise you two enough for the fear release activity. Honestly, it is something I can apply to even myself before and after birth and even in life in general. Thank you for that. It has already helped three of my VBAC clients.” 

Even starting right there talking about processing and fear release before going into birth can ultimately help us in our postpartum stages. 

Heather: Absolutely, yeah. That’s a big part of, I think, what I was working through in my second pregnancy. 

Heather’s Stories

Meagan: Okay, well then let’s turn the time over to you. 

Heather: Well thank you so much. I’m really humbled to be here today. I’ve heard so many amazing stories and I wasn’t sure that mine was really amazing enough, but I really just feel so strongly that talking about postpartum depression is important even now, even five years out of recovering still that I just really want to be there to help others who need that light. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Heather: All right, so I got pregnant with Theo in 2017. We made the decision in March and literally the weekend I had my birth control out, we looked at each other, and bam. We were pregnant. 

Meagan: Oh no way. 

Heather: So I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is amazing. Oh my gosh. I’m terrified.” I had no chance to really start processing this. I was still weaning down from my depression medication. I had been in treatment for depression a few years prior. I had been out of it but still on medication. I was feeling good. I was feel pretty stable. I thought going off of my medication was going to be great. 

So we find ourselves pregnant and oh man, that pregnancy was hard. I was sick. I was exhausted. I’m a performing musician and teacher of music, so I was getting through my days with little kids and getting to gigs and driving and throwing up in the car on the highway. 

Meagan: Oh, bless your heart. 

Heather: I’m still processing this whole, “Wow. Our lives are going to change.” I was really excited too, obviously. I was really happy to be starting this but we were really apprehensive heading into that. I was due Christmas Day that year, so starting in November, we started getting serious about birth prep. We did a very comprehensive birth course. I was seeing midwives for my care during that pregnancy and I thought they were just really great. They had the same view I did. I was really happy with the care I was receiving. It was very encouraging and just like, “Whatever it is that you want, we will get this for you.” 

The hospital I was going to deliver in had nitrous. It had one room with a tub. It had showers in every room. It had obviously the epidural and the IV meds. I felt good about the options, although something inside of me really wanted a more natural kind of experience. I think looking back, I really did want a home birth, but I was scared and it’s expensive, so this is the direction that we went in. 

Our birth prep, like I said, was very comprehensive and on top of that, I was reading books. I was making sure that I was informed in case of a Cesarean. I knew about the cascade of interventions and coping with contractions and stuff. 

We got to the end of that video class and oh my gosh. So they do this, “Congratulations. You’re going to have a baby.” I was just like, “Oh my god.” I was terrified. To be perfectly honest, my husband wasn’t much better. It was about another four weeks before I actually went into labor since that moment and it was an exciting time. I got through 39 weeks at work and then I stepped back because as an organist, I wasn’t going to be playing the day before my due date. 

My due date came and went and he didn’t come. I was very thankful for that because as an organist, I did not want to have a baby on Christmas Eve. Christmas Day would have been preferable frankly. 

Meagan: I was going say, did you guys have performances at all? So you took a step back but did you have Christmas stuff at all? 

Heather: I had backed off by the week before Christmas. 

Meagan: Oh that’s so nice. So you completely stopped. 

Heather: Yes. So 39 weeks on, I was on maternity leave. I had some Braxton Hicks, nothing really, not moving too much. I got to 40 weeks. My mom came. 40+1, we go for a walk. 40+2 I think is when I had my next appointment with my midwife who was one of the two midwives I had seen in the office and she was the one who actually was still doing hospital deliveries so we were like, “Okay, let’s get in to see her a few more times in case I possibly see her,” which I did. 

We decided to do a stretch and sweep. It kind of went. It was possible. I was pretty high and closed and stuff, but I think the sweep worked. I didn’t really experience much from that. My mom was like, “Well, I’m going to go see my sister in the other state,” so we had some space again which was really nice to have. 

Thursday that week, I go to my massage guys who are also acupuncturists and I was like, “Get this baby out of me.” They were wonderful people. They are not prenatal or anything. One of them is from India and he was like, “So your baby is a little bit over here and is not pushing on your cervix.” He just lightly touched my belly and it was so gentle. Then I had some acupuncture and they left me to chill. 

Then Friday comes the next day and that evening, I just had a sense. I was like, “Hmm.” I don’t know. I was just feeling this. So that night, I went to bed on the couch downstairs. My husband was upstairs. I woke up around 3:00 or 4:00 AM and I’m like, “Yeah. I’m having contractions.” I was like, “Okay, early labor. I’ve got to rest.” So I went and crawled into bed with my husband and that was just a no-go. It was too painful. 

I pretty quickly got out of there. Mostly, I would labor bending over, leaning over something. We did lots of different places. I was at home for a good 7-8 hours probably. I was feeling pretty good in early labor there. I just had some food, keeping it light. My husband was packing his bag because of course, he hadn’t packed ahead of time. 

I guess contractions probably started around 4ish. I took a bath. I know you’re not supposed to slow them down, but I was like, “I need to rest.” 

Meagan: This is the thing with taking a bath. I don’t want to say full-blown labor like you’re not in labor at all, but if it’s going to progress, it’s going to progress and water’s not going to stop it. If your body responds by slowing down and taking a break, that’s probably what it needed. 

Heather: Yeah. It still continued. He would put Netlifx shows on for me. He’d put stuff on for me. I’d be breathing through the contractions. After the bath, I guess shower, then bath. I don’t really know. I started having to moan through contractions and they started, “Okay. I’m doing my low breathing. I’m feeling good.” I was feeling like, “Okay. I’ve been prepared so far.”

Around 11:30-noonish, things started changing and I started getting antsy and anxious. Contractions started coming much closer together. It was probably about three minutes apart. They’d been a minute long for hours at that point, so we knew that we were really in labor. I was definitely starting to get that worry, that anxiety going then. It was like, “We’re not at the hospital.” We weren’t far from the hospital, but I was like, “We need to get there.” 

I remember I was using the bathroom and laying down was a no-go. The toilet was absolutely excruciating. It was really intense when I hit a contraction. My dear, sweet husband comes and jokingly brings me something to put on that was lacey underwear or something like that. I was like, “You just do this. We need to go.” I was not having any of it at that point.

So it was like, “Okay. We’re definitely ready to go.” We got in the car probably at about 12:30 and we head to the hospital. Man, the car ride contractions were not fun. I’m going, “Ohhh.” I start going, “We’re going to have a baby.” 

Meagan: All the emotions. 

Heather: All the emotions. I mean, it was funny but it was also like, I was starting to become a little unhinged there. I had gotten out of my safe, comfortable, “I’m in a space. I’m in a zone.” Looking back on it, I realize now that I was starting to experience back labor. That was still a whole extra level of, “Oh my god. I’m not prepared. This is really intense.”

We got there. I insisted on walking the whole way. 

Meagan: Probably good for you though. 

Heather: That’s what I was thinking. I was like, “I don’t want to have interventions. I want to get there as late as possible so I’m going to walk.” Every 30 feet, we were stopping to moan through things. We go to where we think triage check-in is and it’s moved because they were doing work. So we were standing there and my husband’s calling the midwives to come from across the hall. It was ridiculous, but the midwife was like, “Let’s get you a chair.” I didn’t really want it, but they could tell that I was in labor. 

I get to triage and they check me and I was 5 centimeters. I was so excited. I was a first-time mom. I’m halfway there. This is awesome. I’m freaking out though. So I’m freaking out and I’m there and okay. It’s time to admit me. I knew my preferences. I knew in my heart what I wanted and I didn’t ask for that. 

Meagan: You can’t say it probably right? 

Heather: Yeah. I thought, “I want a water birth. I want to ask for the tub room, but what if I don’t end up doing a water birth and I’m occupying it and I’m taking it from somebody else?” All these I would say people pleaser things came in. I was like, “You know, I want to get in the shower. I want to labor back in the shower,” but I was starting to shake. I was getting scared. I was getting more and more scared and just feeling out of control. 

So I was just like, “I’m progressed enough. I want an epidural,” even though I knew I didn’t really want an epidural. I was having this back labor. I had been laboring for a long time. I was 40+5 and I was tired. You’re not sleeping well by that point. 

The midwife was great. She was supporting me. She was applying back pressure and a lot of tailbone pressure, especially with the back labor and it was really helpful, but I eventually got the epidural. The first one didn’t take. They did another one immediately and that one only half worked. They put me on my left side because I could feel my contractions all the way down my left thigh. It was really, really intense. The medicine worked that way. I guess we got some sleep. A few hours later, they come to move me to my right side. A few hours later, they move me so I’m sitting with my legs and knees out. That was all they moved me. 

I couldn’t really move. Over the course of having to move, the epidural definitely started wearing off on my left side again. Then shift change happens around 8:00 PM and the midwife that I had been seeing comes on. I was so happy. I was so happy to have her because she was wonderful. She comes in and the room is dark. She checks me and I’m complete. Well, I’m almost complete. She’s like, “there’s a bulging bag of water. We could break them and start pushing or hold off on pushing. What do you want to do?” 

That voice inside again says, “I want to labor down. I want to have some time to really feel the urge to push,” but baby was having some heart irregularities, so I was like, “Well, then let’s go ahead and break my waters. We’ll start pushing.” Even though in my mind, that really wasn’t what I wanted. 

Meagan: Your intuition it seemed like so far has been saying one thing, but then your voice said something else. Your mind talks you into something else. 

Heather: Absolutely. I think that’s really the motif throughout that whole labor. My intuition was in one way and what I was agreeing to and saying I was okay with was another. My midwife was very great. She wasn’t pushy, but having a baby who has nonreassuring heart tones, not dangerous yet was like, “Okay. I’ve got to consider this as well.” So on one hand, I wasn’t thrilled to be accepting breaking my waters, but I wanted to know that he was in a good position. I didn’t know it was a he, but I wanted to know that baby was in a good position, but the labor nurses were like, “Oh yeah. Baby’s ready. Baby’s ready.” 

Meagan: And you don’t really know about back pain at this point. You kind of maybe do because it’s half working, but you’re not feeling it the way you were feeling it so you couldn’t even really identify where he was at. 

Heather: Yeah, exactly. I’m a first-time mom. 

Meagan: You don’t know what you don’t know. 

Heather: No, you don’t. We start pushing and they were pretty good about letting me push on my sides and on my back. They would turn me to my left side and I would push. They would turn me to my right side. I would push. I did a lot of pushing on my back which was probably where the more effective pushing was happening. 

At this point, my temperature has been climbing so that was one of the reasons why my midwife wanted to break my waters was because my temperature had climbed a bit. She said, “Sometimes with an epidural, that can happen but if it keeps going and it becomes a fever then we know that it’s not the epidural and it’s an infection.” I’m thinking, “Okay, then we’ve got to get this baby out.” 

I’m pushing and an hour goes by. My husband is watching me get sicker and sicker. My temperature finally breaks into a fever around 9:30-9:45 PM. By this point, I definitely have a fever. Baby’s heart is not tolerating it well and I’ve not made much progress in pushing. So my midwife starts consulting with the obstetrician who is overseeing her who comes in and she says, “We need to get this baby out. Our options are C-section and vacuum.” 

I’m like, “Well, I definitely don’t want a C-section.” So she goes off to get ready for the vacuum. Now, she doesn’t feel that she can do the vacuum because I guess she had an injury or something so she goes and gets the other obstetrician that night to go and do the vacuum. So they’re back ten minutes later. I’m still pushing. I’m still feeling it. My epidural has worn off even more by this point so I’m really feeling the contractions and feeling them build. I’m working with them. I’m feeling like that was a good experience. I appreciated having that knowledge especially when into my second birth. 

I didn’t really know much about a vacuum. I figured, “Oh, it might be assisting in pushing. I’d push a bit.” They’d assist the baby out over a period of time is what I was expecting. After a couple of pushes with the vacuum, the obstetrician who had come on, not the one who was doing the vacuum but the other one, says, “I’d like to do an episiotomy. Is that okay?” I said, “No. I do not want an episiotomy.” We push again. 

The next contraction after that, she’s like, “Okay. I need to do an episiotomy. You’re going to tear anyway.” I talked to my husband and I was like, “Okay, fine.” 

Meagan: Oh, love. I love you and you’re not alone where you’re like, “Fine. I just want this baby out.” 

Heather: Yeah. I didn’t really understand that that was coercion at the time. 

Meagan: Yeah, because you are vulnerable. 

Heather: So vulnerable. I was sick. I had a fever. 

Meagan: I was going to say that you didn’t feel well probably. 

Heather: No, my husband was seeing me get sicker and sicker like I said. By this point, it’s probably about 10:00 PM. I’ve been pushing for over two hours. I have a fever. I just consented to something that I really didn’t want going into it. The next contraction comes and I’m feeling all of this movement down there. I’m thinking, “Oh my god. He’s out.” They’re like, “Vacuum just popped off for the third time and we can’t do it anymore.” I’m like, “What?!”

Meagan: At this point, they had done the episiotomy. 

Heather: Yeah. They hadn’t told me that it had popped off at all. I didn’t know where we were in that process. 

Meagan: There was no communication. 

Heather: There was not that communication. It was just, “You’re going to tear anyway.” A certainty. “You’re going to have this baby vaginally and you’re going to tear so you need an episiotomy.”

Meagan: So you made the decision with the understanding that this baby was then going to come. 

Heather: By that point, we really had no choices. I was pretty sick. I could feel the contractions. I wanted baby out. 

Meagan: Yeah. You just want it to be over. 

Heather: My midwife was there the whole time. She helped coordinate getting my husband to the OR. They turned up my medicine. They wheeled me down. She brings him in after they’ve determined that I’m numb enough which I almost wasn’t. This is the OB who cut me and that’s who she is. When I talk in conversation about my birth, that’s where my mind goes and that’s really what was like, “Wow. That was obstetric violence. She cut me.” 

I just can’t process it any other way. She almost put me under because they had to numb me and she thought it was an emergency. In my mind, I’m hearing her say to the anesthesiologist, “If the next time, she’s not numbed, we’re going to have to put her under.” My mind is going, “No. Don’t let me. Tell them no. Tell them you do not consent to go under.” Fortunately, they didn’t put me under, but the medicine was high. My husband was there next to me and my midwife was there as a support person. They performed the C-section and my midwife was like, “Do you hear that baby crying? That’s your baby.” That was beautiful. It really was. 

We didn’t know the sex, so she brought my husband over to the warmer where he was and he came back. He whispered in my ears, “You have a son,” which was a really beautiful moment too. They bring Theo over and I get to kiss him a little bit. I can’t really hold him. I want to ask if I can hold him, but I don’t. But I also just needed to sleep at that point. He was born at 10:38 PM and I had been going since 4:00 AM so I was exhausted. 

They take him away. Apparently, he was having some breathing issues so I sent my husband with him. They went to the nursery together. I want to back up and say though that while we were having this C-section discussion, the one thing I asked for was delayed cord clamping. That was the one thing and the OB said no. In my mind, I’m thinking, “Can I ask for a clear drape? You want a clear drape. Ask for this.” I knew the things that I could ask for. I didn’t though. I had already just said no to an episiotomy. I just had one anyway. I had just been told no to delayed cord clamping. I think I was just almost out of fight. 

Meagan: Well, yeah. Like I was saying earlier, it’s to the point where sometimes in labor, we want to use our voice but we can’t. We’re using it in our heads, but we can’t get it out. It’s just this weird thing. I could probably see you too just being like, “I give up. Everything I did want, I’m being told no, or the opposite has happened to me.” 

Heather: Yeah. That was something I really had to process through. Where was that voice? Where was I? Where were we working together and where were we not working together my voice and me? But he goes to the nursery and because I had developed an infection, they wanted to get him an IV and antibiotics as well. He was there for a long time. I was alone in recovery. At that point, I was like, “I just want to sleep.” At one point, my midwife and the obstetrician came in to have a talk afterward. What I remember from that talk was basically like, “You have a small pelvis. You have an incision where you could have a VBAC, but I think your pelvis is too small.” I was just like, “That sounds ridiculous.”

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “I know better. I know better.”

Heather: I knew better. I knew better. I knew that was ridiculous. Even in recovery, I felt like I timed out because of the fever more than anything and I timed out also because I didn’t have a lot of movement going on. There was no continual positioning during labor. I had been born via C-section. I was OP. That had been in the back of my mind in preparation. I was like, “I’m going to help this baby get into good positions.” I knew the positions to help me. I knew these things and I still ended up with a C-section. 

The hospital stay, unfortunately, was not better. I finally met him and got to hold him at about 3:00 or 5:00 AM. I’m not sure. It was a really long separation and that was a really hard separation to come to terms with. When he finally came into the room with my husband, we tried breastfeeding and it didn’t really work. He didn’t latch and then we just went to sleep. The lactation consultants came around the next morning. They were fantastic. We started getting a latch. We diagnosed him with tongue and lip ties. We got those revised and then breastfeeding was off to a much better continuation. 

The next day, so I went into labor and had him on a Saturday. Sunday was New Year’s Eve so we got to look out over the city and see the fireworks. Monday, I had this rash all over my body. We were like, “What is this?” It was particularly around my incision and my belly, but it seemed to be everywhere. We were like, “What is this?” It didn’t seem like PUPPPS. It wasn’t just in stretch marks. It was like, “Maybe it’s the antibiotics.” 

Meagan: The sutures?

Heather: “Maybe it’s something you’re wearing. Maybe it’s the sutures. We don’t know.” I had part of my thyroid removed a year prior and I actually had an allergic reaction to the surgical prep. I was like, “Maybe it was the surgical prep.” It wasn’t. We don’t know what it was but they gave me Benadryl. I was like, “Great.” It made me tired. My baby was constantly trying to breastfeed. I was also on medicine for the infection and pain which was just horrendous. That pain was worse than back labor for me. That was almost the most traumatic was trying to walk the day after. It got better quickly for me. I was very fortunate, but it was really scary getting out of bed the first few times. Like really scary, I was in so much pain. 

So yeah. The Benadryl didn’t really help. The next day, I asked for more because I was still itching and the nurse was like, “It can make your milk dry up.” I was like, “What? I’m not doing that.” We got home eventually and it was just really hard. He very much wanted to be held all of the time. We weren’t sleeping. I felt like breastfeeding wasn’t going super well. We got to my two-week appointment and I saw my midwife who had been there in the birth and I mean, she was wonderfully empathetic. She was just like, “How are you?” I was like, “I am not well. This is not going well. This has been really hard. He’s not gained weight.” 

She asked me what did we want to do about it? I was really lucky in that the practice and the hospital in general had a licensed clinical social worker attached to it, so I could go to the same place and see this therapist. She was a specialist in postpartum and prenatal counseling and just maternal and child psychology. At two weeks, I was like, “Okay. I want to talk to her.” I went to that probably a week later and I just cried for an hour. I just cried. I talked about the C-section and the episiotomy and about how I was pumping at that point but he wasn’t gaining weight and how this was hard. 

She just listened the whole time. I was like, “Wow. I just cried for an hour.” She was like, “Is that a good thing or a bad thing?” I was like, “I think it is a good thing. I needed this.” 

Meagan: Sometimes you need those releases. 

Heather: Yeah, the release was really important. I was seeing a lactation consultant. I was triple feeding so I was feeding, pumping, and supplementing. We get to, I guess, his one-month appointment and he’s passed birth weight. He’s doing well. I went back to the lactation consultant who was like, “Keep triple feeding.” I was like, “I can’t do this,” so I just started to listen to my intuition on that. By that point, yeah. He was gaining weight well. 

A few weeks later, I go for my six-week appointment and I still was not myself. At that point, I decided to go back on medication. We found something that was breastfeeding-compatible and I felt comfortable doing that. I knew that I needed to take care of myself and that antidepressants were definitely going to be the next step. I would say after I got on antidepressants, I stabilized for a while. There were a good few months there where I was continuing with therapy. We were dealing with a lot of, “Okay. I still have a newborn. I’m still exhausted. I’m adjusting to motherhood,” but just other things in life were coming up. Like I said, I felt like my mood was pretty stable. 

At about six months postpartum, somebody in my close circle had a pretty decent vaginal birth and I was really happy for her, but oh my gosh. I just fell apart. I dove right back down into depression. I showed up at therapy the next week and I was just like, “I’m so happy for her,” and was just crying. Again, I don’t know where this is coming from. That’s when we started the next step in processing the trauma. 

Since my therapist was attached to the hospital system, and since she had the specializations that she did, we were able to go through all of my labor notes. For those appointments, I asked my husband to be there for me as well, so we went together. We went through those over the course of a few sessions. We really dug into some of that. I remember going through the notes around the fever and pushing and I was like, “Yeah. I really did need that C-section.” That definitely helped me take another step forward, but at that time also, my therapist was like, “Just so you know, there are other avenues for discussing this.” 

That’s when she told me about the patient advocate at the hospital. I didn’t know about patient advocates, but my therapist was like, “She’s really great. She’s not just there to prevent lawsuits or malpractice suits. She will be there. She’ll be emotionally there for you. You call her and she’ll set up a meeting with the doctors and head of obstetrics and neonatology if you want.” So that was something that I decided that I wanted to do. It took me a few weeks definitely because it’s still something very close to my heart. It was still very hard. It was just hard to make the call. 

I think just making space for ourselves when we find ourselves in a place where there’s another step forward, but it’s still hard. It’s just so important. 

Meagan: It’s hard to make those steps. 

Heather: It is. You can feel like you know it’s what you want to do and you can still give yourself the time until it’s really right. But I made the call and in September we had the meeting. It turns out that the doctor who had cut me was no longer at the hospital. 

Meagan: Oh uh-uh. 

Heather: It may have been because of her attitude. I can neither confirm nor deny, but I did meet with the head of obstetrics who was actually performing the vacuum and assisting in the C-section. That meeting, I went into it and I wanted to ask about the fever. I wanted to ask about the infection like, “How does this happen? Did I do anything? Should I not have taken a bath that morning?” The doctor was like, “These things happen and you can’t control them and all we can do is make the best choices that we can make.” And then I brought up with her the episiotomy and I said, “That was not okay. I should not have been pressured into that. This hospital needs to know and the doctors need to know that all around, this was not okay and this should not have happened.”

She said that they have trainings and there’s one coming up and that she was going to use this scenario in the trainings. That was really powerful for me to hear that they were going to talk about it in whatever way they did. It was really important for me to speak out and say, “This was not okay. This happened. It should not have happened that way,” but then also to have the doctor hear me and agree with me really did help. 

The meeting was also interesting. She said, “We would be happy to do pre-pregnancy counseling. We could do a VBAC calculator.” I didn’t know about that and was like, “Okay.” I also said, “I think this hospital should have more access to clear drapes, and women in my position should be offered these things, not just expected after all of what we’ve been through to ask for these things. This seems like a basic thing that we can do to be more mother-baby centric.”

Meagan: It’s minuscule to make such a big impact. It’s a minuscule thing that changes someone’s experience so much and I love that you brought that up. I love that. 

Heather: Yeah, so this was back in 2018. I brought that up. I was like, “This could have been and I think this would have helped.” Neonatology was not at that meeting. They were unable to be there, but the head of neonatology did give me a call a few weeks later and she was lovely to talk to. She said, “I was reviewing your notes.” The obstetrician in the patient advocate meeting had not reviewed my notes. I had really hoped that she would have. But neonatology and I went over the notes for Theo and it turns out that he was in more distress than I had believed at birth. 

I also think that I just was like, “My baby is going to be fine.” Babies have trouble breathing sometimes. That’s why we have an umbilical cord. That’s why I wanted delayed cord clamping for a little bit of a buffer. But the care that he received was important. She just reaffirmed that getting the mom and baby together is really important from the get-go for us. We do value that and you are right to bring that to our attention, but we will continue this value. 

I got a lot of closure from all of those meetings. I definitely understood all of the medical things that had gone on better. It didn’t solve my depression. I’m still in therapy to this day, but it really helped turn the page. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Heather: So fast forward to about a year ago, December 2021. I had even written that in my notes. I can’t do the math. 

Meagan: The years are blowing by so fast. 

Heather: It’s going by so fast and my daughter is in a sleep regression. It’s just great. We were starting to finally feel like we had our feet underneath us. We moved states. We got settled in another place near my parents which has been great and we were like, “Okay. We want to grow our family.” So that December, we decided to start trying, and two weeks later–

Meagan: Did you look at each other? Yep.

Heather: Yeah. Yeah. Two weeks later. From my last menstrual period, I was three weeks pregnant and I was like, “How am I getting a pregnancy test positive already?” I was terrified. I was like, “What is up with us? We are never taking risks. This is just too freaky.” Yeah. We got pregnant right away. So right away, I’m like, “Oh. But I have all of this trauma that is resurfacing.” 

My son was born at the end of December which means that the really hard postpartum was right during my first trimester which was hard again. I was very sick. I was resting a lot but it was also a different feel because we were so much better as a team this time. We were so much more open about how we were feeling. We were more excited. We knew that we knew more this time. But it was still an adjustment getting used to being pregnant again. 

I definitely had some anxiety and I don’t usually have much anxiety. Going into my first provider appointment, I was so scared. I really was not looking forward to being in prenatal care again because of my experiences before. So because we got pregnant so fast, I didn’t know exactly where I wanted to go, but I knew I wanted midwives again because I just did not feel safe with obstetricians. I went with what ended up being a community clinic for anybody. Anybody can go and it’s price-capped, etc. It’s a rotating group of people who provide the care. 

It just so happened that the first time I went there, I met with one of the midwives so I thought, “Okay. I’ll be seeing midwives.” I didn’t really know how they assigned people. The midwives were good. From the first appointment, she asked me what I wanted to do for birth and I said that I wanted a VBAC. My second appointment a month later, I was like, “But I have really bad tailbone pain, so maybe I do want a repeat Cesarean.” A few months later, I was like, “Nope. I definitely want a VBAC.”

I started preparing for it. I did some more courses online learning more about VBAC. That’s when I got introduced to the Facebook community, The VBAC Link Facebook Community which was really great. I started really digging into that towards the end of my second trimester. I will say, unlike my first pregnancy, my second trimester was lovely. I really had a good time. I was taking medication for nausea which never went away again, but because I had it managed, I was able to enjoy and move a lot more this time. I did a lot of pregnancy yoga and pilates. That was really lovely. It really helped me feel more in charge and in control of that aspect at least. 

Towards the end of my second trimester, I was like, “Jake, I really don’t want an epidural. I really think that is the whole reason why I had the fever in the first place. What I’m learning now is that epidurals can cause fevers.” What everybody told me back in 2017 was that no, no, no, no. Epidurals don’t cause fevers. They might elevate your temperature, but I really don’t believe that at this point. I really think it was because of the fever. I knew that my epidural had not been great. I didn’t want it. I had back labor. I was like, “We need more support.” 

We got a doula and she was amazing. I had her by the end of my second trimester going into my third trimester. At the beginning of my third trimester, I went to a prenatal appointment on the regular day that I had been going and this new provider walked in. She said, “So you’re going to have a repeat C-section?” I’m like, “No.” She’s like, “Okay, well I mean, I have one priority, really two priorities and that’s a healthy baby and healthy mom.” I’m like, “Okay, but I signed the trial of labor consent last time.” She’s like, “Okay, well as long as you signed it.” 

It was a horrible discussion. I kept trying to be like, “No. I don’t want to talk about that. I’ve done my research. I’m good.” 

Meagan: Well and just what she had said there was pretty much saying, “Well, this is my priority and that’s the way to get it.” It was that. 

Heather: It was horrible. She didn’t go over my charts. She didn’t go over my gestational diabetes screening which I didn’t have, fortunately. She didn’t go over my TSH levels. She didn’t go over anything. She had a hard time finding the baby’s heartbeat. I was just like, “Man. Who is this person?” So I went home totally shook. I was not okay. This is not a good provider. I am being bait-and-switched. I called every office in town. I called every office two hours away. Nobody could take me by that point. I was bawling and I was just talking to my doula and I was just like, “I feel like I should drive two hours and show up in labor.” 

We examined all of the options. Because I hadn’t found anybody by the time of my next appointment, I went to my next appointment and my blood pressure was through the roof. It was 150/90 something and I was always fine. This midwife comes in and she’s like, “I was looking at your notes. That other provider does not do births. She can’t see. She is not indicative of this practice, Heather.” Right off the bat, this midwife was like, “I can see from your blood pressure readings and from what happened last time that this was not okay.”

I think I just started crying. I brought my husband that time because I was like, “I’m not going in alone.” So we went. We had a 45-minute to hour-long meeting with her. She was just amazing. She really got me back on track. She was like, “Okay. So here’s what we’re going to do. At 36 weeks, you’re going to start the evening primrose oil. You’re going to start doing this. You’re going to stretch that. We’re going to do stretch and sweeps if you want. If you don’t want them, that’s okay. If we have to induce, this is what I envision.” I’m like, “Oh my gosh. They’ll even induce.” You don’t know all of these things and her overall approach was like, “Okay. I’m feeling so much better about this.” 

So for the remainder of my pregnancy, I pretty much only went in on days when I knew that the other provider would not be there. I started seeing these other two midwives mostly whereas I had seen a third midwife on Wednesdays so I knew a few of the providers. I was like, “Okay.” As we were getting closer and closer, I’m checking back in with my doula and I’m like, “This hospital doesn’t have the things that I want. There are only two shower rooms. There are no tubs. There is no nitrous. It’s just two medication options, but I don’t feel like I can drive. I don’t want to be laboring in the car. I want to stay home as long as possible.” But I definitely was starting to feel more comfortable with that decision. 

Knowing that my husband and I had done the self-work since our first birth, knowing that we had all of this time to really talk through things, knowing that we had a doula, we just felt so much better prepared to advocate and face this. This time around, I did a hospital birth course which included a tour of labor and delivery. I was not prepared for how anxious I got in the labor room. I really was back in that place. 

Meagan: Triggered, yeah. It triggered you. 

Heather: I’m heading to the hospital. I’m having a baby. There are going to be interventions. It’s not what I want. But we got through it and I just had to take it by faith that I was going to be okay and I was going to be able to stand up for myself. 

Fast forwarding a little bit, we get to 34, 35, and 36 weeks and I’m just having tons of Braxton Hicks contractions. My job is keeping me on my feet a fair bit teaching little kids music, so I’m wiggling around and every time I’m moving, I’m feeling tightening. I’m like, “Wow. I’m getting ready. This is so amazing.” I was feeling very positive about that. By 35-36 weeks, every night from 10:00 PM on, it was like baby dance and squish hour. So I’m having those tightening Braxton Hicks. Sometimes they were timeable. They were pretty regular. They were not stopping, but I wouldn’t call them painful. 

I was on the link, “What is this? Okay. It’s probably prodromal labor.” So I was having that quite a bit. I started at 36 weeks. I started, “Okay. I’m going to do the evening primrose oil,” and boy did that make my uterus angry every time I would do it. I’m like, “I don’t know if the midwife really intended this. Maybe I shouldn’t do it.” 

I go to my 36-week appointment. I go to my 37-week appointment and I’m like, “Yeah. This is crazy.” I didn’t have any checks by that point. I did have a check, I guess, at 35 weeks when we did the GBS positive swab and I did come back positive. I was so upset. I was like, “Man, I really should have just declined that,” because I wasn’t going to change what I was going to do for labor anyway. I had one of the nice midwives check me at that point. She said, “You’re soft but you’re still pretty high and baby is right there. She moved when I poked her.” I thought that was pretty funny. I’m not sure if my son had ever gotten down that low, honestly. 

At 38 weeks, we go for a walk. I stopped working. I just had so many contractions. I had been bringing my husband to work with me because I work an hour away. I was like, “I’m not going to drive if I’m contracting. It could literally be any time.” But we had the appointment and the midwife was like, “So Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays are the midwives that are really on board with your birth plan. They’re the ones that you really want to see.” I was like, “Awesome.” 

So Monday night, I’m 38+3 and I do my prenatal yoga, pilates, and birth ball bouncing. It’s probably 10ish, 10:00 PM. My husband is like, “Let’s get this baby out of you.” He’s bouncing me on the ball. We’re just being lighthearted and silly and just like, “Okay, whatever.” But that night, I woke up at 3:00 AM which was not unusual having contractions which were not unusual. I get up to pee which is very usual as we all know. At that point in pregnancy, I just could not sleep and my water broke. 

I went to the bathroom and then I’m still leaking and it was dark. I’m like, “What’s going on?” I sit back down on the toilet. I get some light and I’m like, “Oh my gosh. There’s vernix in it. This is really my water.” I was so excited. I wasn’t really feeling any contractions and I was like, “Of course,” because I’m GBS positive, my water breaks prematurely. 

Meagan: Your water breaks first. 

Heather: I was so mad but I was like, “I’m not going yet. This could still be a day or more,” but I started calling my doula and let my husband sleep a little bit longer. I go into the room finally probably at almost 4:00 and I’m like, “My water broke.” He was dead asleep but his face lit up and he was so excited. That’s one of those really sweet memories from labor for me was just seeing his face get so excited like, “We’re having a baby! We’re having a baby!”

Another hour and a half goes by. I canceled all of the things that I had to do that day. My parents come to get my son and I had a very tearful goodbye because by this point, I was definitely in labor and I was emotional. I was like, “My baby.” So my parents show up for my son and I’m in the shower. I’m groaning, moaning through things and I’m definitely having back labor. My doula isn’t there yet, but we still have a lot of time. Contractions were fairly close by that point, probably 3-4 minutes apart for a solid minute, really, really strong ones. 

Meagan: Which is common with back labor and posterior babies where it’s really, really close. That’s really common. 

Heather: Yeah, I was like, “The shower is great, but you know what would be even better? A bath.” So I drew a bath and I’m emotional. My son is gone and I’m crying to my husband. He’s like, “You’re going to see him again.” But I’m like, “But he’s not going to be my only baby.” The doula shows up and she’s like, “Now, is your bath too warm?” I glared at her. I was like, “No. I was a good girl. I didn’t make it too warm.” All I wanted was to be in the sauna. 

But I get out. I was like, “Okay. It is time to go to the hospital. I’m facing that reality. I’m going to have to go to the hospital now.” So I used the bathroom and I’m on the toilet. Oh man, once again it was just so painful being on the toilet. I start feeling my body push. I’m like, “Okay. We need to go.” 

So we were packed up. I put on a robe and underwear and nothing else. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Heather: We show up in August to the hospital in the south and I’m in my not regular robe, like a fuzzy robe. 

Meagan: Like fuzzy warm? 

Heather: Yeah, yeah. That’s what I wanted. I was beyond rational thought at that point. My husband parks right in front of the doors. It’s totally fine. We’re in a small enough town. It’s great. He gets the wheelchair and wheels me up. People are clearing the elevator for me and I’m like, “Uhhhhhhh.” We only had a ten-minute ride to the hospital, but I had at least five contractions so I was in full-blown transition at that point. I’m horse-lipping it. I’m doing whatever I can to not push. 

We get up to the room. We skip triage. We go right into the room and they’re pretty calm. My birth plan never made it over there, so they don’t know who I am really. I’m like, “That’s great. I’m happy with that because I’m a VBAC person and I don’t want the monitoring. I don’t want to be in your constrictions, rules, whatever.” It took them a long time actually to figure out I was a VBAC person. They’re kind of intermittently monitoring me but I’m moving around. I’m fully naked at this point. I had no modesty. I did not care. 

Oh, I had a TENS unit and I had a comb. 

Meagan: Combs are amazing. 

Heather: They really are. I’m leaning against the back of the hospital bed and I’m screaming through them. I got checked and I was like, “Can I have medicine?” They were like, “Uh, it’s too late for that. You’re at a 9.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I started labor maybe around 3:30 or so and I’m at the hospital by 8:30. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Heather: So I’m at a 9. I had my TENS unit turned way up. I’m screaming for things. As my husband, I want to say this. As my husband was wheeling me into the room, I was like, “I’m going to ask for an epidural. I want the epidural.” He was like, “No, you don’t. No, you don’t.” That moment was so important because at that exact moment, I forgave myself for that first epidural. I don’t think I could have in any other situation. I really was like, “No. I did what I had to that first birth. I understand again why I did it. This is no joke.” Just that thankfulness and that gratitude for that started. 

One of the nice midwives was on call so she comes in and she checks me. Even though I’m a 9, my cervix is moving out of the way, so she was like, “You have the green light to push.” So I’m pushing and I probably got ten minutes into pushing and I was like, “This isn’t working. I want a C-section. I want to be awake for my baby’s birth. I don’t want her to get stuck.” The midwife was like, “This was your choice. We have not been doing this for long enough. Okay. We are not there yet.” 

Everybody like my doula is in the back saying, “No, Heather. You’re doing great. You’re fine.” My husband is like, “No. We’re not doing that.” I was like, “Okay. Okay, no. I know how to push. I remember this. I can do this.” So I was pushing. I started off pushing holding the back of the hospital bed. I pushed on my hands and knees. I wasn’t feeling like it was super effective at that point. I really wanted to try the squat bar. They didn’t really know where it was. They had to figure out where it was. I guess they don’t use it a lot, but I was like, “No. We’re doing this.” 

I pushed squatting for a while. That was pretty good, but we were like, “Okay. Let’s find a position where I can rest in between contractions too.” I tried on my left side for a while and then I turned to my right side for a while. One of the pushes on my right side, I felt a shift and I was like, “Oh. Now we’re in business.” I could tell. She had moved farther along. 

I actually ended up pushing on my back for a little while. That felt good too. It felt really effective. While I was on my back, I asked for a mirror which was something in my first birth, my voice had said, “Yeah. Go for the mirror,” but my fear had gone, “I don’t want to see. I don’t want to see that.” But this time, they didn’t have a mirror so my husband whips out his cell phone and I was like, “Don’t you dare.” He’s like, “No, no. It’s just so you can see. I wouldn’t do that Heather.” I was like, “Okay.”

 

Meagan: That’s actually a really great idea. 

Heather: Yeah, honestly. I got to see that. I got to really be so much more present. By the time I was pushing, yes contractions were really intense, but I was so thankful to just be able to do something about them. I had experienced this in the first labor too. With the epidural wearing off, pushing felt good. Ring of fire did not. I could feel that. That was super intense, but I had really gotten back into the zone at this point.

I guess I had tested out my provider and she was like, “No. You’re doing it. You’re doing great.” They really could never get the monitors to continuously monitor me. They tried one of the wireless ones and baby girl and I were just moving too much. I was thinking, “That’s fine. We’re moving. That’s what we need to do.” So I would push and then the labor nurse who apparently was a little snarky about me not being on continuous monitoring would slide the monitor down and at one point, the midwife was like, “That’s your baby’s heartbeat. Your baby’s doing good.” A few times, they reminded me to take really slow breaths in between so we kept that oxygen going. 

After a while, probably about 45 minutes or maybe longer of pushing, I got back up on the squat bar and it really got serious by this point. I remember the midwife was like, “Okay. There is about this much, about two inches between you and the bed, so once this head is delivered, we’re going to carefully roll you to your back and then we’ll deliver the rest of the baby.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m having this birth.” So the next contraction comes and it builds. I push and I feel her just slip out entirely. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Heather: She fell out of me at that point. In one motion, I had my eyes closed and I had been on the bar. She’s out of me and I roll back onto the back of the bed. All of a sudden, I have this very slimy, meconium-covered baby on my chest. She wasn’t covered, but she had all of this fluid come out.

Meagan: Warm and sticky.

Heather: Yes, very sticky. I was just like, “Oh my god. I did it.” It was an amazing feeling. I didn’t have this huge rush of love. It was a little bit like when I had held my son for the first time like, “Oh my gosh. There is this beautiful stranger in my arms,” but that was kind of nice. I was like, “Okay. I’m used to that. That doesn’t mean anything. I did it.” They did all of the APGAR scores and everything watching her on my chest. The nursery nurse was like, “If you see her starting to peck around, you can nurse her.” We had a successful first latch. My doula was taking pictures so we have some beautiful pictures of my husband and me just looking at this baby and looking at each other and grinning. 

I mean, I would say the biggest feeling I had after Juniper’s birth was just gratitude. I really felt so cared for in the hospital this time. I knew the midwife and she was really, really supportive. Having my doula and my husband there was great. My husband was a rockstar this time. I would say we were both kind of deer in headlights the first birth. This time, he was giving me sips of water. He was encouraging me to put on chapstick. He was holding my hand. He was just an amazing partner through this and I mean, I know my doula did a lot but I feel like she was also just kind of there. I know at one point when they were like, “There’s no birth plan. What does she want?” my doula was on it because at that point, all I would have been able to say it, “I want the things,” which would have been, “I want skin-to-skin. I want delayed cord clamping.” 

My husband cut the umbilical cord while she was on my chest. We got to see the placenta. We got alone time just to have that golden hour. I was very sore but it was nothing compared to the back labor. I just felt really like, “Okay. I can handle this recovery this time.” 

Important to note, I did have a mental health plan in place for postpartum. I still saw my providers two weeks later and it was the really warm and fuzzy midwife. She was like, “How are you feeling?” I was like, “Honestly, I’m great.” I had a little bit of baby blues a few days after where I was comically crying because my babies were growing up when one is four days old, but it was honestly a night and day difference between the baby blues and postpartum depression. Baby blues, I felt great most of the time. I had this abiding sense of gratitude and love for my husband, for my kids, thankfulness and so appreciative of the staff. 

My midwife had actually told the labor nurse to back off because she was freaking out that I wasn’t being monitored as a VBAC person but my midwife had said going into it, “I think number one, we’re going to get you a better birth this time and I think that’s going to help your mental health but number two, we’re here. We can up your dose.” I had therapy appointments already scheduled. My therapist was like, “If you need to see me twice a week, that’s fine. We’ll make this work.” Ultimately, I went into it having done a lot of preparation for postpartum and knowing that I had been through the fire the first time and I could do it if need be. Actually, it was a lot easier than I had expected. 

I think the other reason why this postpartum reason was easier was because I did do so much intensive work since my first child’s birth. I really dug into the trauma. It took a long time. There’s no timeline where you have to have it all figured out by and even during pregnancy, I was still figuring out bits and pieces of it and piecing it together and facing difficulties, but I had just told myself going into that birth, “I’m going to l listen to myself. I’m going to listen to that voice and if baby needs to be born via C-section, it’s going to be okay because I will have listened to myself this time.” That’s going to be the big difference. 

So I really tried to manage my expectations but also just to hold onto what I knew I could control and what I knew I could do. 

Meagan: I love that you say that. Hold onto what I could control. Hold onto what you can control We know in birth and in life, in everything in life, there are so many things that are truly out of our control, but for this birth, you held onto what you could control and then you were open-minded for the things that you couldn’t control. It didn’t go another route which is awesome, but if it did, you were much better prepared this time. Through this birth, I feel like we saw such a shift in you, Heather. We saw such a big shift in, “I’ve got this voice. I don’t feel I can use it. I’ve got this voice. I’m going to use it and I’m going to get my team. They’re going to know what my voice is before I get there even so if I don’t ever feel like I can use it because I’m in a space where I’m vulnerable, my team knows and they’re advocating for me.” 

Heather: Yeah. That was such an important part for me. I knew I was having a daughter this time. I was like, “I’m going to approach this as the model that I want her to have. I want her to know that she is empowered to make whatever choices she needs to in life and I need to practice that now.” I also want my kids to know sometimes life is uncontrollable and that we can trust things but we can also just accept that some things are going to be hard. We don’t know what the outcome is going to be. 

I really had this saying in the back of my head, “Don’t push the river. The river of labor is going to come. It’s going to take me where it takes me.” From the water breaking to her being out, it was maybe 7 hours. She was born at 9:58 AM so an hour and a half after I got to the hospital. So much did go how I wanted. So much was a lot harder than I expected, but I had prepared myself in so many ways. I knew I was strong. I knew I had been preparing my body, my mind, and my emotions. I really had just been so vulnerable with my husband and myself. I knew I could tap into that vulnerability as strength which is honestly one reason why I am here today is that I really hope that we can all find that. It’s hard. 

Meagan: It is hard. It’s really hard. We’ve talked about this in other episodes. It’s hard to even recognize or accept that you need to do that. It’s hard to even get to that point. There are so many times when we just brush it away so I love it. I love that you go through all of that work for for yourself. Look at what that did. Look at the impact. Like you said, it’s okay. You’re still going through things. You’re still working through things and you are probably going to for a while and that is okay, but you’re helping you and you’re taking charge for you.

Heather: Mhmm, yep. I feel so good about the example that’s for my kids. 

Meagan: Exactly. Exactly, yes. Thank you so much for coming into this space and being so vulnerable and sharing these beautiful stories. I know as a mom myself going through two undesired Cesareans and both in different ways, I understand that space of wanting to be that strength but not feeling like you can and then through work and processing and education, being able to be there and say, “Okay. I’ve got this for myself. I’ve got this for myself.”

Listeners, you can do that too. If you are like Heather and I and have been in a moment, and it doesn’t even just apply in birth, it may apply in all things in life where we feel vulnerable and we feel stuck, you can do it. You can trudge through the mud. Sometimes it’s really feeling like you’re trudging with ankle weights on. It’s thick and it’s heavy, but you can do it. You are strong. 

Something I also wanted to mention is patient advocacy. I don’t know if that’s ever been spoken about on the podcast. I don’t know if many people even know it exists. I believe from my knowledge that it exists in every hospital because there unfortunately are things that happen in hospitals where patients need to go in. But if you are like Heather and you’ve had this experience, don’t shy away. Heather, do you have any tips on how to maybe approach a provider in that way of, “Hey, I’ve got this going on.” How could someone start that conversation or who in the hospital can they contact to find the patient advocacy program?

Heather: Yeah, so I knew about it because my social worker was also a therapist. I would say that finding social workers is going to be the first step because they are the ones trained to know the systems. I know that there are always going to be some kind of social worker attached to the hospital system. When I had that awful doctor appointment with that obstetrician, I actually did approach the social worker. She’s not a therapist but she was like, “Here’s the name of the person who you should talk to.” 

I actually have that card but I haven’t contacted them yet because I’m giving myself space and grace but I will. I will at some point and say, “This happened and it was not okay.” I would say if you are afraid to talk to your provider about it, just ask your provider who the social worker is and how to get in contact with them. I don’t think hospitals usually advertise that super well at all. 

Meagan: They don’t. 

Heather: But telling your provider if your provider is the one that you are reporting, telling them that you want to talk to the social worker is a neutral way to go about it. If you’re like me and had a wonderful midwife but had an issue with another person, you could probably talk directly to your provider about like, “I need to talk to a patient advocate. What happened was not okay and I want somebody to listen to me.” 

Meagan: Yeah. This is the thing. I think you touched on it earlier. It’s not always to just be like, “I want to sue this person.” It’s not about that, but I will tell you right now, it’s going to make change. It’s going to make change. You are advocating for another birthing person who is walking in and maybe is in a vulnerable space and doesn’t feel that they can speak for themselves or maybe after some more education from a provider’s standpoint or a nurse’s standpoint, they can step back and be like, “Okay. I’ve learned about this and I’m not going to take this approach because it’s affected someone else.” 

It’s okay. It’s okay to do that. You really are. You’re advocating for the future people.

Heather. Yep. It really can help you heal too. 

Meagan: Absolutely. That’s one of the biggest takeaways from personally doing that. Like you said, it didn’t help everything. It didn’t cure all of your feelings, but it gave you some validation. It gives you power in your healing. So I love that you spoke about that and all about the postpartum. I’m so glad you had a much better and healing and beautiful experience the second time around. 

Heather: Yes, me too. I really felt so much better cared for this time. 

Meagan: Good. Good. Well, congratulations again. 

Heather: Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Abby has always had a heart for birth. She became doula-certified long before becoming a mother and even introduced her husband to The Business of Being Born on their second date! She knew that undisturbed, physiological birth was the way she wanted to go.

But Abby’s birth experiences were filled with wild twists and turns including chorioamnionitis, posterior and breech positioning, pulmonary embolisms, hemorrhaging, multiple miscarriages, an ICU stay, and many blood transfusions. 

With the odds stacked against her, Abby did not give up the fight. She knew deep in her soul that a VBA2C was something she could do.

AND SHE DID!

Fresh off of her VBA2C, Abby shares every intense, tender, and raw moment of her journey. We know you’ll love Abby just as much as we do.

Additional Links

Abby’s Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and today we have another beautiful story for you. We are so excited to share all of these stories in this beautiful 2023. It’s going to be a great year. That is what I keep saying. It’s going to be a great year. No more weird viruses and all of the things. It’s just going to be a good, positive year and we are starting this week out with a positive VBAC story. 

We have Abby with us today and she is from North Carolina. Is that correct? 

Abby: Yes, Charlotte, North Carolina. 

Meagan: Yes, I love it. We have quite a few doulas in North Carolina as well. Maybe you guys could all connect. She is actually a doula as well. She is not practicing right now because she has a whole bunch of little bodies around, but this birth has totally motivated and boosted her spirits into the day that she does get back into doula work. So Abby, welcome. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: I am going to share a quick review and then we will jump right into your beautiful story. 

Abby: I can’t wait. 

Meagan: Me neither. I really can’t wait for your story. This is PaigeBroadway. She shared her review and it was on Apple Podcasts. It says, “Allowing me to believe in myself.” Just that subject right there makes me so happy because that is exactly why The VBAC Link exists is allowing you to believe in yourself. We talk about this all of the time. It’s to believe in yourself to make the decision that is best for you. We don’t always have to have a VBAC. We don’t always have to have a repeat Cesarean. Or maybe a VBAC is chosen to a repeat Cesarean or a scheduled one. It doesn’t matter the way we birth, but as long as we believe in ourselves and we believe in our ability to make the right choice for us, that is exactly what this podcast is for. 

Her review says, “My husband and I are currently trying to conceive. I knew immediately after my C-section that I never wanted to have an experience like that again. This podcast has already given me the strength to switch providers and the knowledge to prepare for a VBAC. I can do this.” 

Paige, you absolutely can do this. Just like all of the others here, right? Right, Abby? Do you feel like that?

 

Abby: Oh my gosh. That is just the most encouraging thing and that’s how I felt about The VBAC Link for five years and now I’m here telling my story. So yes, Paige. You can do it. You really can. 

Meagan: Yes. You really, really can. We always accept more reviews. You can drop us an email at [email protected] or Apple Podcasts or Google Play. You can send us a message on Instagram. Wherever it may be, we love to read your reviews. We love to receive your reviews. So definitely if you wouldn’t mind, push pause and drop us a review. 

Abby’s Stories

Meagan: Hello, women of strength. This is Meagan. I am so happy that you are listening to the podcast. When I was preparing for my vaginal birth after two Cesareans, it was hard to find the evidence-based information in one spot. It could lead me to feel lonely or even confused. This is why Julie and I created The VBAC Link Podcast. Did you know that we also send out emails with helpful tips and advice on how to achieve your VBAC all easily digestible in one email form? Just head over to thevbaclink.com. 

Okay, Abby. We have so many stories on this podcast and I know that like you said, here you’ve been for five years and now you are here sharing your story. You are just fresh. You are fresh out of it, right? 2 weeks? 

Abby: Very fresh. I just stopped wearing Depends the other day. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. That is fresh. That is fresh out of it. 

Abby: Very fresh. 

Meagan: Fresh out of birth. Sometimes I feel like right out of birth is so fun because again, it’s so fresh and it’s in the forefront of your mind so you have all of the detailed things to share. I am so, so, so excited for you to share your story. So go ahead. 

Abby: Oh my goodness. Well, I should start at the beginning about five years ago. My daughter is turning five on January 31st, so it’s been almost exactly five years since she was born. I went to a doula training when I was 20-22ish years old way before my husband and I met. On our first date, he told me that he didn’t want to be in the room when the baby was born. I literally told him that he should go on a date with someone else because it was so important. I was like, “This isn’t going to work out.” I showed him The Business of Being Born on our second date and he has changed dramatically since then. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I’m dying. 

Abby: But I feel like that just gives a little bit of a background of who I am as a human being. 

Meagan: And your passion. 

Abby: I feel very strongly about it. Yes, yeah. I was really quite young. Honestly, I have to give a shoutout to a friend of mine who is now a midwife but was a doula at the time. We went on a mission trip to Africa. We were sitting on a bed in Uganda and she was talking about how beautiful birth was. I was a teenager. I think I was soon to turn 21. It was like, “Why would you not get an epidural?” I was very far away from childbearing years at the time. I just didn’t understand. She just sat patiently with me and explained in such a beautiful way how beautiful birth is and that it can create a mother and that it’s worth it to go through what you go through and come out on the other side of it. It was just such a meaningful conversation for me. 

It really shifted my whole worldview and made me who I am today.  It’s interesting thinking back on that girl who would have said, “Why would you not get an epidural? Why would you want to have a natural childbirth?” to the way that my stories ended up which is just bananas. 

Needless to say, I was very crunchy and felt like, “Okay. I’d love to have a home birth.” It was my first baby, so my husband was like, “Maybe we should do a birth center.” At the time, there was a birth center in Charlotte, so that’s the direction that we went. I was just picturing the twinkle lights and a tub and all of the things that you see on Instagram for birth. That was the mental picture that existed in my brain. At that time, I was listening to another birth podcast and I specifically remember skipping over C-section stories. I was just not interested in them. I didn’t even think it applied. It wasn’t intentional. It was, “Oh, well I don’t need to listen to those because I’m not going to have a C-section.”

Meagan: That’s not what I’m doing. Exactly.

Abby: Yeah, that’s not what I’m doing, so why would I need to listen to that? In retrospect, that really messed me up and I love that y’all’s podcast mentions that this is a podcast for all moms. This does not need to just be people who have had C-sections. I think listening to The VBAC Link can help you prepare to a) not have a C-section, but also prepare for a C-section if that’s what has to happen for you. It was just a really difficult transition for me from the twinkle light picture to ending up with a C-section. 

But my pregnancy with Hadley was fine. It’s funny because I’m older now and I’m like, “Oh, that pregnancy was great.” I was in great shape and I was much younger. Everything was fine and easier. I did have a rib pop out of place. I know now that she was sunny-side up for almost the entire pregnancy, so my whole third trimester was excruciatingly painful. I had never seen a chiropractor before that, so I went to a chiropractor eventually but it was really just like bandaids. It wasn’t really helping because my body was not in the right condition beforehand. I’m a really big proponent of bodywork. That will come back in the rest of my story. But at the time, I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I was in a lot of pain toward the end, but other than that, everything was fine. 

I went overdue which I expected. I was excited when I made it to 37 because I was still allowed to be at the birth center. I think I was probably pretty ready. I tried to do some induction acupuncture, and I’m not sure if it actually did anything but a couple of days later, I started having what I felt like were contractions. I had never been in labor before, so they were two minutes apart but really, really short and not getting any longer. I was just confused.

My doula-gut was like, “This feels off, but also I’m dying.” I don’t know what to do about this. So we called my doula over and went to the birth center after almost 48 hours of having those contractions at home. Again, if I knew then what I know now, I would have taken a bath and had some Epsom salts. It was probably prodromal labor. 

We went to the birth center and I can’t not tell this part of the story. I told the midwife, “If you tell me that I’m 1 centimeter, I’m going to kick you in the face.” She backed up because I was only 1 centimeter. Oh, I was like, “No, don’t back up. Come in my face and tell me I’m a 4 or something.” I just knew at that point that it was over because I was like, “I’m so tired. This is the point when I’m asking for an epidural and I’m 1 centimeter.” How could I possibly get through this?

The worst news was yet to come. She said, “You have to transfer to the hospital. You have a fever of 100.2.” She thought that I had chorio. I think, I don’t know how to say the actual word. It’s chorioamnionitis. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s why they call it chorio. 

Abby: Exactly. 

Meagan: Infection. It’s an infection. 

Abby: Right. It’s a uterine infection. She said, “I’m sorry. I’m diagnosing you with a uterine infection. You have to go to the hospital.” I was just devastated. Honestly, that was the point of my birth where I feel like I really lost all of my power as a person and a mother. The rest of the birth felt like it just happened to me. I was not an active participant. I went to the hospital and they said, “You actually don’t have a fever,” because the hospital system’s standard of fever is over 100, and at the hospital, I was 99.7 or something. So they said, “You don’t have a fever. We’re going to let you labor.”

Meagan: So it went down?

Abby: I don’t know if it went down or if it was just a different thermometer and they were like, “According to us, you don’t have a fever so we’ll let you labor.” In retrospect, it was good news because if they had just sliced me open the second I got there, I probably would have never set foot in a hospital again and that would have been very bad news for my second birth. So I think that would have really turned me off of the medical system altogether and doctors. I just would have gone real red pill in the other direction. 

So they let me labor, but I ended up with an epidural at 1 centimeter. I tried to get in the little dinky shower at the hospital and it was cold half water. I was like, “This is doing nothing.” I wanted to be in the tub at the birth center. I ended up with an epidural flat on my back and at that point, you’re like, “Well, who cares? If I’m already here, why not do Pitocin? Why not break my water?” So thus began the cascade of interventions ironically that started with an epidural. I feel like that’s not always the case, but that was very much the cascade of interventions for me. I did not want them to break my water, but eventually, they did. 

I was there for three days and they really let me go for a really long time. 

Meagan: That’s actually really impressive for a hospital.

Abby: I was so pleased with the care that I received. Both of the OBs that were flipping on and off of call were very patient with me. I think they kind of knew, “Oh, this is one of those birth center moms. We might as well just let her try.” 

Meagan: Let her do it. 

Abby: That was kind of a vibe that I got, but it was genuine. They really were like, “Yeah. You can totally do this.” But really, it was an unnecessary induction because I was 1 centimeter and I wasn’t really in labor. I wasn’t having true labor contractions. I wish that I had just gone home and gone to sleep, but we wouldn’t be here having this conversation if that happened. 

I got to 10 eventually and I made it to pushing eventually. The epidural that I had was so strong that I could not feel from my shoulders all the way down. I was numb. I’ve never been so numb in my life, but again, I didn’t know that’s not what an epidural was supposed to feel like. They were telling me to push and I was just like, “What do you mean?” They told me to lift my legs up and I was like, “I can’t hold my legs. They weigh 4000 pounds. What are you talking about?” 

The nurses were not as kind as the OBs and I could tell that they were not approving of my pushing and that it wasn’t doing what it was supposed to be doing. But the benefit of Hadley’s birth, she asked that I say her name on the podcast, so the benefit of Hadley’s birth was that by the time I made it to 10 and pushing, they tried to use the vacuum seven times. They tried all of the things. They really, really let me go. 

So by the time they said it was time for a C-section, I really trusted them. I didn’t feel like it was a snap judgment. I felt like, “You know what? Okay. I agree. If this isn’t working, it’s not working. There’s nothing else we can do.” So come to find out, she was sunny-side up. 

Meagan: I was going to say, was she sunny-side up still?

Abby: She was. She was. So when they had broken my water, she basically got stuck up in that broken rib cage and never made it around my pubic bone. I also did have chorio we found out after. 

Meagan: Oh no way. 

Abby: It was just the wildest. We joke that it was a Murphy’s Law birth and that every random thing could have possibly happened, but everyone was fine. I was fine. Hadley was fine, but it was deeply traumatic for me. I really did not feel like I was present for it at all. It was really difficult to feel like I wanted to have this empowering, personal experience and it was so impersonal and medicalized. I was separated from Hadley for the first few hours of her life and they took me into, I don’t even know what it’s called, but it was a terrible experience. 

My husband was super traumatized because it wasn’t what he thought was happening either and it was really, really difficult for us. That is really when I started listening to The VBAC Link right away. I was like, “Done. I’m having a VBAC. That was terrible. I’m not doing that again.” I felt pretty strongly about that. Unfortunately, it took us two and a half years to get pregnant with our second. We had three miscarriages along the way, so a lot of our story has been “not right nows” and “maybe laters”. We are really thankful for the children that we have which is wild how they all got here at the correct time. 

We were filling out adoption paperwork in January 2021 after so long of trying and found out on February 1st the day after my 5-year-old’s third birthday that we were pregnant. It was the darkest line I’ve seen since I was pregnant with Hadley. It was like, “This is the baby. This is the one. She’s going to stick around.” I felt like this was my VBAC. I don’t know if that was just my personality and my, “Oh, this is going to happen. I’m going to manhandle this into being the case,” but I very much wanted it to be my VBAC. 

That pregnancy went kind of similarly with rib pain. I started chiropractic earlier this time, but still really struggled with the rib. Her name is Ginnie. Ginnie was sunny-side up the whole time, so that was against me from the beginning that she was sunny-side up, but again, I don’t know how I didn’t spend more time thinking about it or trying to get her into a better position, but I just didn’t. It was honestly the height of COVID and I had a toddler. Life was just still happening, so I went into labor I thought. I was 39 weeks exactly and my water broke at home. I was elated because, with Hadley, my water didn’t break on its own so I felt like, “Oh my gosh. Labor is starting. I’m going into labor naturally. This is exactly what I wanted.”

I stood up and it was a gush. It was very much my water. It was no mistaking, “Okay, that’s not pee. Definitely, my water has broken.” I was so excited and then nothing happened at all. 

Meagan: I can totally relate to that. 

Abby: Yes. I’ve listened to your birth stories. It was a Sunday so a friend came to pick up our toddler and we were all excited. We were going to have a baby. Nothing. 

Meagan: Nothing. 

Abby: Crickets. Not even a single cramp. I walked four miles that day. We did all of the things and it just was like no. We went to sleep that night and I was like, “I’m not going to the hospital until 24 hours and then I’m not even going to tell the hospital that it’s been that long,” which is sort of what happened. We went in about 24 hours later and I still had not had a single contraction. Absolutely nothing happened. 

Meagan: Were you still leaking?

Abby: Yes. Yeah. 

Meagan: Still coming. 

Abby: Again with the diapers, I need to buy stock in Depends at this point. But yes it was definitely my water and it was definitely not doing anything. I went to the hospital. Triage takes a million hours when you’re not in active labor, so we were in triage forever and they wanted to get me hooked up to continuous fetal monitoring. I said, “Oh, okay. So I’ll have the wireless one.” They were like, “Oh, it doesn’t work.” I was like, “That’s not what I signed up for.” My practice was very like, “Yes, you can have a VBAC.” Actually, my midwife was very, “You can have a VBAC,” but she was part of a practice that had OBs and you sort of don’t know who you’re going to get until the day of. 

I felt very supported throughout my whole pregnancy. Everyone thought I was going to have a VBAC. I had plenty of those conversations with OBs that they’re like, “Okay, so just so you know, here are the risks.” I’m like, “Yeah, yeah. I know all of the risks. I’ve done the research. Thank you very much for informing me. Have a nice day.” When I think back, I think there were probably some red flags that it was friendly but not supportive.

Meagan: Tolerant. 

Abby: Yes, a tolerant but not supportive practice. But again, I didn’t know that until I knew that. I started an induction. My contractions started getting regular. It worked. I was dilating and I made it to about 6 centimeters. I don’t think I mentioned this before but my husband had childhood cancer, so he has pretty severe medical trauma and hospitals are particularly triggering for him. Other people being in pain is also triggering for him. 

Meagan: I’m sure, yeah. 

Abby: Around 6 centimeters, I was starting to need a little bit more support. My doula, because inductions take forever, was like, “I’m just going to go home and spend the day at home. I’ll come back at night when you really need it.” I was chilling. I was just watching Friends and hanging out until I wasn’t. It started to pick up really quickly. What made me start to need more support was that they turned off the Pitocin when I had to go to the bathroom and then they turned it back on and didn’t change the number. I think it was at a 9, but something about turning it off and turning it back on made my body go, “Whoa. That was really intense.” All of a sudden it felt like insane Pit contractions. 

My husband started to have a really hard time supporting me through it and my doula was stuck in line at Chick-fil-A. You know, once you’re in the line, you can’t get out of the drive-thru. 

Meagan: Of all the places too, darn it. 

Abby: We wanted it. I was like, “Bring me food. I want to eat something. I’m going to break all of these rules.” 

Meagan: She’s getting everyone food and stuck. 

Abby: Yes, she’s totally stuck. My husband needed to eat dinner. It had been a long day already, so she was stuck. I was like, “You know what? I have peace about this. I’m going to get an epidural. I’m going to ask for an epidural.” I really was pretty okay. I was not dying mentally at this point, but I felt like my husband needed a little break from me not being okay and I felt like, “I’m at a 6. I got an epidural at 1 centimeter last time so all right. We’re doing it. This is happening. Things are progressing. Let’s do it.” 

Naturally, my doula got back right before they were placing the epidural. She was like, “What are you doing? We’re not doing an epidural. Let me do some hip compressions. What are you talking about?” She’s very, “Come on. Let’s do this.” That’s why I hired her because I needed that, but I had made up my mind mentally. 

Meagan: Yeah, which is okay.

Abby: Yes. Very much so. I think it is honestly what needed to happen for a litany of reasons. But once my doula got back, she noticed that my heart rate kept beeping on the monitor and when you’re in hospitals, you hear beeping all of the time so we weren’t paying attention to what the beeping was. It wasn’t the baby’s, so no one was really all that concerned, but my heart rate was insanely high. So much so that my doula was checking my Apple Watch for my history of what my normal heart rate was. She was like, “Give me your Apple Watch and let me look at what this normally is,” but I had only gotten my Apple Watch while I was pregnant, so I didn’t have a baseline, “This is my normal heart rate.” 

Basically, the nurses just turned down the volume on my heart rate monitor that was saying, “Alert, alert! Something is wrong with this woman.” 

Meagan: That could be a sign of infection. 

Abby: It could be a sign of a lot of things. 

Meagan: A whole bunch of other things, yes. 

Abby: It seemed like my doula was the only one who was concerned about that. I was concerned only about having a VBAC so I was like, “Whatever. I don’t want any hindrances to the VBAC. Don’t panic about me because I’m good. Baby is good. I’m good. I’m fine.” 

Again, I made it to 10 and pushing. My heart rate was through the roof and I guess I need to rewind a little bit, sorry. I had a cough for the last four weeks of my pregnancy, maybe more like six. It was a dry cough and it was a the height of COVID, so I had 75 COVID tests because they said that I had COVID.” 

Meagan: Because you had a cough. 

Abby: Yes, exactly. They said that if I had COVID, my doula couldn’t come into the birth with me. With my husband’s history, I was like, “No, no. I have to have my doula. That’s not an option.” I took 1000 COVID tests, but it was never COVID. It was never positive. I just had this dry cough that would not go away. The cough combined with the heart rate was really freaking my doula out even when I had an epidural. I took a little nap. I made it to 10 and pushing. When I was pushing, my cough really started to ramp up. I was coughing incessantly. 

I remember the midwives joking, “We’re all going to have COVID at the end of this birth. Obviously, this lady has COVID because she is coughing up a storm.” We were talking about how one of the midwives had just gotten her taste or her smell back or something after having it. She was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to get it again.” It was all of this sort of lighthearted conversation, very, “Yeah, haha. We’re all going to get COVID I guess.” 

Yes, except for my doula. She was like, “This is odd.” But she said, “You know, maybe you’ll cough your baby out. Maybe it will help you. Maybe those pushes will help you get the baby out.” She was trying to be encouraging. I don’t even remember. I should probably look at my notes on how long I pushed. I think it was a couple of hours and again, I had a sunny-side-up baby with my water broken. She was just lodged and would not come down. 

Meagan: Were they able to try and rotate at all or was she not low enough? 

Abby: Neither of the girls ever descended. I don’t remember what station they were at, but it was high. I looked at a picture of my third baby at 37 weeks and my belly was so much lower at 37 weeks than either of the girls on the day I went into labor. They just never dropped. They were not ready really. 

So when they said that it was time, an OB came in who I had never met before and was not the kindest about the way that she shared that information with me. For me, I felt like, “Who’s going to let me try for a VBAC after two? This is my opportunity to have a vaginal birth and if this is it, this is it. I can’t.” But it felt like at that moment, everyone in the room just sort of fell to what she said. I didn’t have a choice. Even my doula who I adore was like, “I think it is time.” So when your doula and your husband and your midwives all say, “I think it’s time,” then what choice do you really have? 

Meagan: Well, you trust these people.

Abby: Right, right. You also don’t want to be the person who, this sounds horrible, but something happened to my baby because I was so hell-bent on having a vaginal birth. At that point, that’s how the conversation felt. Her heart rate was dropping and it wasn’t coming back up in between contractions. They were like, “Okay. I think it’s time.” I reluctantly consented, but really, really struggled. I sobbed through the C-section and threw up through the C-section. I hate having my arms out like Jesus on the cross. It’s just the worst thing in the world. It’s just terrible. It’s not for everyone. I feel like it’s important for me to say that that was my experience. I have a friend who just had a C-section and she was like, “I thought that it was really cool to know that they were down there doing all of that stuff.” She had a great experience and I think that’s amazing. I’m so glad she did, but for me, it was just so different than what I expected that it was deeply traumatizing for me, especially for the second time. 

But the baby came out and she was fine. I think it took her a couple of seconds to start breathing. I think she had some meconium or something, but they handed her to my husband. She was all cute and then they brought her over to me. She licked my cheek. I do remember having a very different reaction to meeting her than meeting my first daughter. With my first, I had never had a baby before and so I felt like the first thing I thought was, “I didn’t think that’s what she would look like.” I didn’t feel like, “Oh my gosh, I made this human and I love it so much.” That was just not my experience. 

But with the second one, I had a three-year-old at the time and was like, “You’re going to turn into the coolest little person,” and I knew how to love a child then so it felt much better and different which actually made the next part a lot harder. I still had my cough. It did not go away and after they had sewn me up on the table, every doctor had left the room and it was just the surgical techs and the people that are basically cleaning up the floor. I had to cough and my arms were still out. I was flat on my back and you know when you have a cough, you want to turn to the side or sit up and I couldn’t do either of those things. My lips turned blue and they called a code. I was breathing so I don’t know what the codes are. They pressed a big alarm and people came running. Brian, my husband, was holding the baby and they took her out of his arms and basically pushed him into the hallway so that he wouldn’t see me die, I suppose was the thought, or drop the baby or who knows. 

I just wanted to turn over and I was trying to explain to these nurses while having a coughing fit, “Can you just let me roll over?” They were trying to put oxygen on my face. I was like, “That’s not going to help this tickle in my throat. I don’t want you to put oxygen on my face.” I was fighting them off. 

Meagan: I need to get up. 

Abby: Yeah, exactly. I was just like, “Why can’t you understand me?” But I wasn’t speaking words, so that’s why. The first person who ran back into the room was my anesthesiologist and she apparently was a cardiac-specific anesthesiologist which I didn’t even know was a thing. She took one look at me after I had settled down and said, “I believe that you just had a pulmonary embolism and you need to go to get a CT scan.” At that point, I didn’t know what a pulmonary embolism was so I was not all that concerned about it. I was like, “You’re silly. I just have a cough. I’ve had a cough for four weeks. What are you talking about?” 

I knew that my husband was going to be really upset obviously, but he wasn’t going to be allowed to come with me to get a CT scan. I was like, “You have to let me go talk to my husband. I have to go tell him that I’m okay.” It’s not funny, but it’s now just sort of a dark humor inside joke that when I went to go talk to him, I was like, “Babe don’t worry. It’s just a pulmonary embolism.” He was like, “Abby, those kill people. That’s not a just kind of thing.” 

They found several bilateral pulmonary embolisms in my lungs. One of my lungs was 98% occluded, so 2% away from not being able to make it. I spent the first two days of her life in the ICU. Again, it was COVID so I wasn’t able to see her because everyone in the ICU was there for COVID. They were like, “We don’t want your newborn to get sick,” and they were on different floors so they brought her to me one time and then I pumped milk for her that nurses took back and forth but it was really insane. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Abby: They gave me blood transfusions and immediately put me on heparin and a drip to start clearing up the blood clots and get them thinned out. When I got finally sent home from the hospital, I had to start blood thinner injections and do those for the next six weeks which unfortunately led to a postpartum hemorrhage. 

Meagan: Oh my land. 

Abby: It’s a wild ride. This wasn’t even that long ago. It was October 2021. I basically didn’t have any postpartum bleeding for the first week. I was like, “Man, maybe the C-section is just the way to do it. Maybe this is making the bleeding a lot easier,” but what they think happened is that I had some major swelling and it was basically holding all of the blood in my uterus and by the time it opened up, it was like floodgates. I won’t be too graphic, but when they tell you to call the doctor is when I called the doctor. 

I had a couple of other scary experiences at home. I passed some clots and they had given me some Cytotec which is supposed to squeeze the uterus. 

Meagan: Clamp the uterus down, yep. 

Abby: It clamped too much blood out and I lost too much blood in one hour basically. I passed out on the floor and I was on blood thinners so my mom caught my head because you can get a brain bleed if something happens while you are on blood thinners. I had to get a blood transfusion the next day. My postpartum experience was recovering from a C-section, recovering from the ICU, and then postpartum hemorrhages and I think I had three blood transfusions after being outside of the hospital. 

Meagan: Holy cow. 

Abby: I don’t even know how to end that story and shift to the next one because it really was not that long ago. That daughter is now 15 months old. Like I said, it took us a long time to get pregnant with her so I suppose you could say that we were not all that cautious after she was born. Six months later, we found out that we were pregnant. Well, we didn’t know at the time that it was a boy, but we found out that we were pregnant. I had already been asking the hematologist and the pulmonologist, literally everyone. I was like, “So what happens when I get pregnant? Do I need to be on the blood thinner injections on day one? How does this work? What am I going to do?” 

They all thought I was crazy because they were like, “This chick almost just died. Why is she thinking about getting pregnant?” I was like, “Is this ruling me out of a VBAC?” I had all of the questions. I’m glad in retrospect that I asked them early. I was like, “It could be two years from now, but I want to know what I’m supposed to do on day one. I’m not going to be seeing a pulmonologist on a regular basis when my baby is two, so I might as well just ask now.” 

I had all of the information that I needed which was wonderful, but I struggled really hard with nursing her. All of my kids had tongue ties and it’s just been a difficult journey breastfeeding. Ginnie, the middle one, had colic and food allergies. I was down to seven foods that I could eat.

Meagan: That’s the worst. 

Abby: It was terrible. I was off eggs, soy, dairy, gluten, caffeine, tomatoes, and corn. 

Meagan: You weren’t really eating anything. 

Abby: I really wasn’t eating anything. I was losing my mind. I was pumping around the clock to try and get my supply back up. She was still not gaining weight and we just were like, “If this was working, I could maybe keep doing it,” but it wasn’t working and she wasn’t gaining weight, so I switched her to formula. Once I weaned, we pretty much immediately got pregnant. Very much a surprise but I feel like I need to share the beginning of this story because this is really the start of my VBAC story and I’m really going to try not to cry. 

I had a postpartum nurse when I was postpartum with Ginnie whom we had never met before, but she just adopted our family. She brought me Uncrustables in the postpartum room and those are the best. She was like, “Here’s candy from the nurses’ station.” I think you get a little extra attention when you’re a pulmonary embolism mom in the ICU, so she just adopted us and became a friend to our family after the baby was born. She called me a week before Mother’s Day and said, “Abby.” She was bawling. She told me that she hasn’t cried in three years but this was the first time she cried. She was bawling her eyes out and said, “Abby, I just had a dream about you. I have to tell you the dream.” 

As a nurse, she has seen, in her time, one stillbirth and it really deeply affected her obviously. She had a dream that she went to heaven and saw her stillborn baby girl as a teenager. She was holding three of my children. Carly did not know that I had three losses because she met me after Ginnie was born. She just knew I was a miscarriage mom and in her dream, the reason she was sobbing was because she thought that meant I was going to experience more loss. She was devastated. She was like, “Oh my gosh. She’s already been through so much. She just had a pulmonary embolism five months ago,” so this stillborn baby girl who was a teenager in the dream calmed her nerves and said, “No, no. These are supposed to be here but this little boy is coming down soon.”

Meagan: I’ve got the chills. 

Abby: This is a true story. It’s the craziest thing in the world. It’s just wild to me that this is part of my story but it is. She said that he looked just like Hadley, my five-year-old, and that his name was John which is our boy name and my dad’s name and my grandfather’s name. That was always going to be the name. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Abby: We were like, “Okay. That’s really weird.” You think that’s weird. I think that’s weird. It is the reason that I took a pregnancy test. We weren’t trying so I wouldn’t have taken one. It was the faintest little line. Truly, so, so faint but because I knew that I needed to be on Lovenox day one and because I knew from my miscarriage history, I needed to be on progesterone day one, it was a Friday so I texted my midwife and I said, “I need HCG labs and I need you to call me in progesterone and Lovenox.” My HCG that day was very, very low. I think it was a 5 and the lowest considered viable pregnancy is a 7. They want it to double or triple by 48 hours from now. 

I went back on Monday. I started my progesterone and Lovenox on that Friday with a very faint test and a very low HCG and it was up to 77 on Monday. It was doubling or tripling in the appropriate amount of time. I kept going back and it kept going. He is sleeping in the other room right now, so he clearly stuck. I really contribute his life honestly to Carly’s dream and the fact that I never would have taken a pregnancy test. It was a Friday. I was able to be so proactive about the medicine and care that I needed. I knew when she told me the dream, I said, “I’m pregnant. This is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew it in my bones so intimately. I really don’t know how to explain it. It was just a soul-knowing. I just knew. 

She was like, “The dream wasn’t literal, Abby. I’m not saying you’re pregnant right now.” I was like, “Nope. I know.” I just knew. I just knew. People always say things like that, but that had never been my experience, especially trying to conceive. You’re always like, “Oh, I stubbed my toe. Is that a sign of pregnancy?” You’re looking for every little thing and this time it was like, “No. I’m pregnant.” We’ve wanted a boy the whole time and I was like, “This is going to be my boy and this is going to be my VBAC.” I just knew. 

So really, on day one I started fighting like hell for my VBAC because it was after two and I knew that I was going to need to basically be a psycho about it. I think that’s my biggest VBAC advice for people is that if you really want a VBAC, you have to kind of have to be a psycho about it because no one wants you to have a VBAC more than you want to have a VBAC. You need to advocate for yourself. I think a lot of people can take a sort of, “If it happens, it happens” attitude and that is fine if that is how you truly feel about it. If it happens, it happens but if you really, really, really want a VBAC, you have to really, really, really fight for your VBAC no matter how supportive your providers are, no matter how wonderful your doula is, it’s only you who is going to get you that birth. You’re the one who has to push the baby out. You’re the one who has to do all of the work even if there are people helping you. 

And I did day one. We would like a large family, so our position from the beginning of the pregnancy was, “Well, if this baby is a C-section, then are probably done.” I really don’t want to put myself through more than three C-sections. The other two were so deeply traumatic for everyone in our family. I can’t imagine recovering from a C-section with three or four children. We are going to be done. So that really lit a fire under me to fight for it even more. Even if we do decide now to be done, I didn’t want surgery to be what decided the size of my family. That was something I felt really strongly about. 

I started chiropractic on day one. I started doing all of the things. I took obviously all of my medicines and I just took really good care of myself and my body. I think bodywork played a huge part in my pregnancy this time around. We found out at 20 weeks at my anatomy scan that the baby was breech. I’d never had a breech baby. All of my babies were OP before, so I was like, “Okay. Surely this is 20 weeks. He’s obviously going to flip at some point.” He really didn’t. He was breech until 35, so I went to a Webster chiro twice a week. I did moxibustion. I did all of the Spinning Babies. I hung upside down off my couch 700 times a minute and did everything you could possibly do, handstands in the pool to flip a breech baby. Really, nothing was working. 

I went to a bodyworker who was like, I don’t really even know how to explain what he does, it’s something between chiropractic and massage therapy, but he tried to manually move the baby for me. It never worked. Nothing happened. They told me I couldn’t have an ECV because I was a VBAC after two and my last birth was so recent and I had an anterior placenta. 

Meagan: All of the cards were stacked against you. 

Abby: So many cards. I basically was like, “I have this deadline. If I made it to 39, they’re going to schedule me if he doesn’t flip by then.” It was really dark honestly because I had that deep knowledge the whole time that this was going to be my VBAC. I really started to doubt that and say, “I’ve had such shit luck before now.” Sorry if I’m not allowed to cuss on the podcast. 

Meagan: You’re just fine. 

Abby: Maybe my terrible luck is going to continue and it wasn’t a true feeling, it was just a desire. He finally flipped after a lot of tears and a lot of, “I think I’m going to have to have a C-section.” I went to birth trauma therapy for the whole time. We talked a lot about, “Okay, well what happens if you do have to have a C-section? How are you going to be okay with it if that is the outcome?” He eventually flipped which, praise God, was amazing but the minute he flipped, he was LOA. I have never had a baby in a proper birth position. That is intense, girlfriend. He was down low doing what he was supposed to be doing and I was like, “Ow. This is a lot of pressure all of the time.” It was just constant pressure. It felt like a lot of contractions. They were obviously prodromal, but with my experience with Hadley, I just ignored them the whole time. 

I was like, “La, la, la, la, la. Nothing is happening.” He flipped at 35.5, maybe 36. The contractions really picked up right away. I never had a cervical check, so I don’t know this but I have a feeling that I was walking around at a 3 or a 4 for a while. I was having very regular contractions, not necessarily timeable, but they were real for sure and doing something for sure. His position was doing something also. He was putting pressure down low and dilating me in my opinion. 

At about, I guess it was 38, everyone kept saying, my doula kept saying, “I think you’re going to go early. I really think you’re not going to make it.” I was like, “I’m going to go 42. Nobody is going to stop me. I will do whatever I need to do.” 

Meagan: Mentally prepared. 

Abby: I will have a 42-hour labor, okay? I will have a 42-hour labor if I need to have a 42-hour labor. I will do all of the things. They were all like, “No. You’re not going to make it.” But then, when you keep not having the baby, you’re like, “This is making me crazy.” Prodromal labor is insane. It’s such a mental game. It’s just like, “Is this it? Is this it? Is this it?” especially because I’d never gone into labor naturally before. But when it was it, I knew. There’s really no denying it. I went to the chiropractor in the afternoon. 

I’m so excited. I’m about to start telling my VBAC story. Sorry I’m long-winded, but this right here is truly what I’ve been dreaming of for a really long time, so thank you for giving me this space to share my story. 

Meagan: Yes. I love it.

Abby: I went to the chiropractor on a Monday at 4:00 and I said, “I think I’m going to go early. I’ve been having all of these contractions.” I had one while I was standing there talking to her. She actually encouraged me to get a membrane sweep. I denied them the whole time with all of my midwives. I was just like, “No, no, no. I’m not doing that.” She was like, “Hey, I went to 42 and I wish I had started the process a little earlier.” It made me doubt all of the prodromal labor I had been having because I was like, “Why do you think I need a membrane sweep? I’m obviously having a baby in the next five days.”

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “My body’s working.” 

Abby: Exactly. That’s what I thought. I was like, “I don’t know about that.” But I had a contraction while I was standing there talking to her, checking out, and paying. She said, “Are you having a contraction right now?” I was like, “Yeah. This is just what it’s been like lately.” I went home and was annoyed by the contractions. I drank a Body Armour with some electrolytes and took a bath because that usually slows the prodromal down. I had five contractions in the bath. I was like, “Hmm.” So I texted my doula and was like, “Usually when I take a bath, it stops the contractions. Surely this means that something is happening.”

I didn’t mention that for the last two weeks once he flipped his head down, I started bleeding pretty regularly. I’m on blood thinners, so I could get a papercut and it would be like the red sea, so it was not all that concerning. My doctors were like, “Well, it’s not your uterus. The baby is okay. You would be in pain if you had a rupture. Everything seems okay.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Abby: My poor doula, I texted her a lot of pictures being like, “Is this bloody show? Is this bloody show? Do you think that this is bloody show?” But finally, on the night that I took a bath and had contractions in the bath, she said, “That looks like blood show.” I was like, “All right. Okay. Now we’re cooking with gas. Something is happening.” 

I got out of the bath and was very annoyed. We had a long day. We have two other kids and my husband and I were both just so tired and wanted to go to bed. He said, “Can I make you some dinner?” I don’t think I had eaten anything. He said, “I have a couple of steaks. Can I make you some steaks?” I was like, “That sounds awesome.” I was like, “I’m just going to sit in bed. I’m going to watch New Girl and ignore these contractions and eat some steak.” I attempted to do that, but the contractions were starting to pick up and I couldn’t eat. I had to eat in between contractions and chew and swallow. I was not enjoying the steak at all. 

I lay down and I felt a pop. I had experienced my water breaking with Ginnie and I was like, “That was my water.” I texted my doula and said, “I think my water just broke.” She had been fielding all of these texts from me for the last two weeks about the blood and contractions and blah, blah, blah so it’s not that she didn’t believe me, but she was just like, “Okay, so tell me what makes you think that your water just broke.” I said, “Well, I didn’t pee.” She was like, “Okay.” I got up out of bed. My husband had just put down a piddle pad underneath the sheets because he was like, “You know, just in case. You’re having all of these contractions.” I didn’t want to totally ruin the mattress, so I hopped up out of bed really quickly because I wanted to go back to sleep after my water had broken. I was like, “Even if there’s a piddle pad, I don’t want the sheets to be wet because I want to sleep in them.” 

It was a flood. It was very much my water. I was like, “Okay. Nope. That’s okay. Things are happening.” And things really did start to happen so, so quickly. You know, as a doula, you have all of these numbers in your head of, “Okay, so there’s 5-1-1 and you call the doula when it’s 5-1-1 and then you go to the hospital when it’s 4-1-1 and your contractions are a minute long and not slowing down in intensity.” That was very much not my experience. 

It was 0 to 60. I think the prodromal that I had been having just ramped my body right up and so there was no real labor. 

Meagan: That’s the thing. Prodromal labor can do that because your body has been working. We call it prodromal labor but it’s not like your body wasn’t just doing anything. 

Abby: It did. It felt like it was doing nothing but it clearly was doing work. 

Meagan: It was. Yes. So listeners, if you have prodromal labor, seriously, just be on the lookout. Sometimes when labor does start and you’ve had a history of prodromal labor, it can start right out of the gate. 

Abby: It was aggressive. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Abby: So basically, immediately my contractions were two minutes apart and at first, they were 40 seconds. My doula was like, “You know, they can start out intense and maybe taper off a little bit.” That is not the direction that it went. They started ramping up in intensity. I watched about four minutes of New Girl and was like, “That’s it.” And we were so tired. I just kept saying, “I want to do this tomorrow. I really just want it to wait.” 

With my middle child, I had been able to go to sleep after my water broke. I slept all night in my own bed and it just ramped up intensely so quickly. I hadn’t washed my hair when I took a bath. It was just a soaky kind of bath, so I was like, “I’m going to go take a shower.” I wanted to wash my hair in the shower. I felt like then my doula could braid it and it would look cute in the morning and I’ll just have clean hair. If I ended up with a C-section, I wouldn’t be able to wash my hair for five days, so I might as well just do it now. 

My contractions picked up in the shower and I remember getting back onto my bed and being like, “I don’t know how I’m going to get dressed.” 

Meagan: So intense. 

Abby: So intense. I just was expecting, even with the second birth, the contractions with the Pit were scheduled essentially. They were intense, but they were scheduled, so you get a break in between them. You get to, “Okay. Let me take a deep breath. Let me reassess.” There was no time for reassessing. Honestly, it was really scary. I have to be honest and say that I’ve had a lot of people say, “I’m so glad you got your dream VBAC.” I was like, “I don’t think I would use those words.” I got a VBAC and I’m so glad that I did, but it was really, really scary because it was just so intense so quickly. Part of the birth plan was to stay at home for as long as possible. You don’t want to go too soon and have them tell you that you’re 2 centimeters and all of a sudden, you’re stuck at a hospital, especially with your water broken. 

I just remember struggling to get dressed and telling my husband, “I think we need to go to the hospital.” He was like, “It’s literally my job to tell her not to go to the hospital. I have one job and it’s to not let her go there.” 

Meagan: It’s to say no. 

Abby: I’m not supposed to do that. These are very specific instructions. So he called my doula and was like, “She’s begging for you. She’s really starting to moan through them and not be able to get sentences out.” She said, “Let me listen to her.” He put me on speaker and she said, “I’m going to meet you at the hospital. I think it’s time to go.” I was like, “Thank God someone is letting me go to the hospital so I could get an epidural.” I was ready for this show to be over. I was like, “If I get an epidural, they’ll let me take a nap.” All I wanted was to go back to sleep. I just wanted to go back to sleep. 

We got in the car. My friend was coming to keep our children and just sleep on our couch while we were going to the hospital and we were about to leave before she even got here. They were well asleep. It was 10:00 at night, but we were like, “We have to just leave the front door open for you.” She ended up making it. She saw me in the front yard and she was like, “Brian, do you think she’s in transition right now?” He was like, “I don’t know but this is really intense.” The car ride was horrible. We only live 9 minutes from the hospital, but it was just so intense, and just no breaks. It was scary and so painful. 

I follow pain-free birth on Instagram and they are liars. It is not pain-free. I just don’t want anyone to listen to this podcast and be like, “Pain-free is what I experienced” because it is not. It is excruciating. You always think you are a badass until you’re not. I was like, “No. Get me an epidural right now. I am dying. I will do anything. Just send me the anesthesiologist right now.” So by the time we made it to the hospital 9 minutes later, I was screaming. Screaming like in the movies and we always joke as my husband and I are now birthy people, I’ve transformed him to the dark side. 

Meagan: I love it so much. It all started with the Business of Being Born. 

Abby: Exactly. 

Meagan: Second date. 

Abby: Oh, literally. We always make fun of Hollywood movies where this woman’s water breaks and she is screaming in the hospital 20 minutes later and that is exactly what happened to me. It was so instant. My water broke at 8:30. We called my doula at 9:30 and she said, “Holy crap. Go to the hospital.” We got to the hospital. Oh, I wish I had the exact timeline. I might have to look. We got to the hospital and I was screaming bloody murder getting out of the car. I don’t even know how I walked out of the car to get to where I needed to be. 

The woman at the front desk heard me screaming and ran to get a wheelchair for me and run me up to the OB floor because this poor woman was like, “We are not having a baby in the lobby today.” 

Meagan: Yeah. I’m sure. 

Abby: She truly was like, “Go. This is my job. I’m going.” She ran me up to the OB floor and my doula apparently pulled in right behind us. She was on the floor but heard me screaming through the elevator from the 8th floor. I was screaming Meagan. It was a lot. I feel like I owe a lot of people some cookies at the hospital. My midwife said that I came in hot. 

Meagan: You came in hot. 

Abby: I really did. They were running me down the hall and this poor, I will never forget, this poor girl at the triage desk was very obviously new and she asked me if I could fill out paperwork. I was like, “Do I look like I could fill out paperwork right now?” I was sideways in the wheelchair with my leg up yelling at everyone. I just was like, “No. I will not be filling out paperwork right now.” 

They took me to triage which honestly was BS. I was like, “I’m obviously having a baby. Why do I need to go to triage?” But they saw me right away which was very helpful. I saw a midwife I had never met before which made me nervous because as a VBAC mom, you’re like, “I want to know that it’s the right people.”

Meagan: Right. 

Abby: But around the corner comes– they tried to get an IV in my arm. I was flailing. There was just no way that that was going to happen which was awesome. I didn’t want an IV anyway. But around the corner comes a student midwife who has been with me through my whole pregnancy. She shadowed a bunch of different midwives and I saw her several times. We actually had a really wonderful conversation. I guess one of the times the baby was breech at the doctor and I told her about my birth trauma and how difficult it was for me and all of the reasons we didn’t want another C-section and she just gave me the most trauma-informed care. She just sat and listened to me well beyond the time of the appointment. She made friends with my five-year-old during the appointments. She was just such a light.

The midwife came in and she said, “Hi, I’m Barb and I have a student with me today.” I had literally just been screaming at everyone in the room and I said, “Is it Cara?” and it was her. I gave her a big hug. She was like, “It’s me!” and it was the most joyful moment of a really, really intense birth. It was 3 and a half hours from start to finish. It was so, so fast. It was a very intense, honestly scary time but seeing Cara was just like, “Okay. You are a safe person for me right now.” It felt like, “I know that you know how badly I want this and I know that you are going to do everything in your power to help me get it and why this is important to our family.” It was just like, “Okay.”

But I still didn’t calm down. I was not calm. None of it was a calm experience at all. There was just no time to emotionally switch from sitting in my bed watching New Girl to I’m at a hospital having a baby. It was just so quick that I couldn’t wrap my head around the change in my life situation. They checked me and it was Cara who checked me, the student midwife. She said, “Well, you’re an 8.5.” I was like, “Okay.” My husband was like, “What? I was not supposed to come to the hospital,” and then he was like, “Oh my gosh. Thank God I came to the hospital. I’m so glad I’m not delivering a baby on our toilet right now.” That was not what he wanted at all. 

She said, “You can start pushing though.” No one ever told me that I was 10 which I thought was interesting. She basically said, “If you’re feeling pushy, you can push.” I was like, “I just want this baby out of me because I want this to be over. I’m very much done with this process.” So they took me to an L&D room and tried to switch me from a triage bed to the regular bed and I truly was in so much pain with no breaks in the contractions that I was like, “No. I can’t even get on the bed.” They were like, “Trust me. You don’t want to be on the triage bed to deliver a baby. Try to get over there.” 

Every movement that I made felt so challenging and so painful. They asked if I wanted to– I went on my hands and knees and they were like, “Is that comfortable?” I was like, “Do I look comfortable?” It was just the most erroneous question. I was like, “What part of me screaming makes you think that anything about this is comfortable right now?” Of course, it was too late to get an epidural, so when they tell me that it was basically time to push, I was like, “I don’t want that. I just want to take a nap. I just want an epidural.” When she said 8, I was like, “Oh no. I have to do this. I have to be here and I have to do this.” 

Obviously, in retrospect, I’m very glad that it was too late and that I did it, but it was truly just so, so intense. Again, just how quickly it happened just did not allow time for me to even understand what was happening. But I started pushing when we got in L&D and the midwife who was very old school, I’m not going to guess her age but she’s older, got in my face. I’m an Alabama football fan, so I kept saying that I needed someone to Nick Saban me in labor. I needed, “All right, Abby. Here’s the deal. See you at the finish line.” 

I had never met her before. She totally got in my face and Nick Saban’d me. She said, “Abby.” I said, “I just want the baby out. I just want this to be over. I just want to get the baby out.” She was like, “We can get the baby out. You can get the baby out, but you have to stop screaming. You’re letting all of your power out of the top of your body by screaming. You have to channel that. Take a deep breath and push down.” I just felt totally incapable of that, but I was again, so over it that I just was like, “Okay. I guess I’m just going to do whatever this random lady says.” 

I started pushing and less than 30 minutes later, my son was born. I was at the hospital for 48 minutes before he was born. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Abby: Truly like a movie. It was just the fastest thing I’ve ever experienced. It was really scary and apparently, it was also really scary for him because he came out not breathing. 

Meagan: Fast transition. 

Abby: Yes. It was so fast. Everything was so fast. It’s officially precipitous labor, the timeframe that I experienced. He was just totally unresponsive. My doula said that she saw his chest rising and falling when they took him away, but you want the pull the baby up on your chest experience. I was so shocked when I pushed him out. Pushing was so hard. It was the hardest thing I’ve ever done in my life and they told me that I could see his head. I touched his head and I was like, “Oh my gosh, there is a baby coming out of my vagina. I can’t believe that this is happening.” But the endorphins that you sort of expect to follow didn’t really happen because we were panicking. 

My husband and I were like, bawling and praying out loud and just were so nervous that the baby was not going to be okay. My doula said that it was less than three minutes, but of course, it felt like an eternity. It was terrible. There were eight people around him on the table and oxygen. It was just a very medical experience. Again, I’ve had a lot of weird birth things and when I first envisioned being a mom, I envisioned a home birth really. All of my births have had reasons that they needed to be at a hospital. 

With Ginnie, praise the Lord that I was on an operating table when I threw a pulmonary embolism and that there was a cardiac anesthesiologist that knew. Honestly, had I had a vaginal birth with Ginnie, that pulmonary embolism would have flowed up into my lungs walking around my culdesac on a Tuesday and I wouldn’t be here. That’s just not the kind of thing that you can come back from. They are literally called the silent killer for that reason. 

It’s hard to admit that the way that I wanted things to happen was not the way that they happened, but I am so thankful for all of the medical people and all of the things that happened the way they happened because my children are safe and I’m safe. That doesn’t make things any less traumatizing if you’ve experienced trauma, but it’s just really overwhelming to think about how things could have happened had I been more stubborn or insistent on a home birth this time or whatever. So I think my biggest shift obviously once the baby was okay and everything, I had a second-degree tear which was no big deal. She stitched me up. That took forever. I was kind of over it by that point. 

By the time she was done and they had handed him to me and everything was fine, people had cleared out of the room, I had to go to the bathroom. I had so much water during labor. I have a big Stanley cup and I just kept asking my husband to give me water in between every single contraction. I was like, “Water, water, water.” It was the only thing I said for an hour. I was like, “I really have to go to the bathroom” and the nurse just looked at me and was like, “Okay. It’s over there.” I was like, “I can go to the bathroom? I can just stand up and go to the bathroom?” And I did. 

She was like, “I can help you.” She wasn’t trying to be rude or anything. She was like, “Okay, yeah. We can totally go.” I was like, “No, I think I can go to the bathroom.” Totally unmedicated. I had no IVs. The continuous fetal monitoring did happen, but it was someone just holding. They didn’t even have time to put anything on me. They just held it down at the bottom of my belly. I was pretty unencumbered and by the time I was done, I could just get up and go to the bathroom. I took a shower in the postpartum room the next day and everything was just like night and day. 

I have already taken walks with my family. I took the baby out of the house yesterday by myself. I carried his car seat by myself. The recovery is, my birth was not a dream birth. It was terrifying and I’m glad it’s over. I’m glad I did it. It’s amazing and empowering, so don’t hear me saying that it wasn’t amazing, but the postpartum experience is what has solidified for me that it was worth every second because for three and a half intense hours, I don’t have to have four-plus really terrible weeks trying to recover from a major abdominal surgery, so it was worth every very, very intense second. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Abby: I know, I’m sorry. 

Meagan: Well congratulations. 

Abby: Thank you. It’s a very long story. 

Meagan: Congratulations. It’s okay. I love it. I love it so much. I appreciate your sharing. I could just feel the intensity. 

Abby: Oh, it was intense. 

Meagan: I’m sure for everybody it was just like, “Ahh!” So much was happening and those precipitous births, just recently recording, I think it was last week’s episode was accidentally at home. Sometimes there are these babies that just come and they are ready to go. I really appreciate you sharing your story. 

Abby: I’m so glad. I’m so glad. It was really such a joy and overwhelming to be here. Honestly, thank you. I feel like what you do is just such a service to women. When you have a C-section, you might think that your body is incapable or not able to do what you thought it might be able to do and it’s really disempowering to feel that way. So to hear these stories is such a gift. I just ate them up like candy. I listened to The VBAC Link on the day that I went into labor and I was going on a walk before I went to the chiropractor. It just gave me the power to say, “I think I really can do this.” And I did. So thank you for what you do. 

Meagan: And now, you’re one of those stories. 

Abby: I’m one of those stories.

Meagan: Before we go, I just wanted to share with everybody if you guys want to go find Abby on social media, again, she’s not actively doula-ing right now, but I can see it in the future. 

Abby: Definitely. 

Meagan: She’s at @AbbyKraftMac which I absolutely love.

Abby: Yes. Kraft with a K. 

Meagan: Yep. Kraft with a K or abbykraftmac.com. We’ll make sure to be tagging you today on Instagram and all of the things. So thank you again so much for being here. 

Abby: Thank you, friend. I’m so thankful. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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We are so excited to be joined by Mikaella as our guest and our dear Julie as a cohost today! Mikaella’s VBAC story is one of redemption, healing, and embracing the unexpected. 

By allowing herself to recognize that her Cesarean birth was traumatic, Mikaella was able to begin her healing journey and prepare for her VBAC. As her birth progressed, plans changed from a faraway hospital to her local hospital to a fast and furious birth at home! 

Julie, Mikaella, and Meagan share thoughts on the importance of acknowledging our traumas and how to avoid comparing them to others. 

Additional Links

Mikaella’s Instagram

Clark Film and Photo

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Meagan: Good morning and welcome to The VBAC Link or maybe it’s the afternoon or evening or I don’t even know. Whenever it is that you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, your host, and guess what, you guys? We have Julie today as a cohost!

Julie: Yay! Hi. 

Meagan: It’s always so fun to have Julie on and today is actually one of her own clients which is super fun. I love when we have a doula client on the podcast because you can just connect with the story and people are bouncing back and forth, so it is so fun. She is here from Utah, so we are all Utahns today here on the podcast. 

Review of the Week

We’re going to jump into a review, and then I’m going to tell you more about our guest Mikaella. 

Julie: Yeah, I’m so excited to be here. I was a little nervous this morning. I’m not going to lie. It’s so strange being on here as a guest instead of a regular host. I don’t know. It’s just this weird little thing, but also I wanted to clarify that Mikaella is actually a birth photography and video client of mine. She had a separate doula, Jenessa who is incredible. But she’s going to go into that more in her story, I’m sure about it. 

I do have a review and I love this review. It’s incredible. It was by springr and the title of the review is, “Wow, Just Wow.” I love that. She says, “I’m what I like to consider a still pretty new mama, but I’m also a C-section mom. For a while, I really thought that’s what I would always be. I hit some pretty dark places, but this podcast has given me light. I listen to multiple episodes a day and have a long stream of notes on my phone.” Let me add, I’m not pregnant again, but that’s how prepared I want to be when we do get there for our next baby. This podcast has given me my first tool to get there. Recently, as quarantine life has become the new normal, I’ve almost always got an episode buzzing in my ear. My husband says I’ve got a bit of an addiction. I snapped back really quick and said, ‘I’ve got hope. It helps me believe in myself.’ He quickly got quiet.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, I love that. 

Julie: Yeah. “These ladies answer personal messages asking for help. I just can’t say enough good things. They are that good. This podcast is just that good. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.” 

This sounds familiar actually, this review. It might be somebody that has contacted me and wants to hire me as a doula when she gets pregnant. Now I’m just thinking because that review did sound a little bit familiar. Anyways, we’ve been talking for a bit of a year now and she’s not even pregnant. Anyways, it might be. Who knows, it might be completely random and somebody else but when she said personal messages, I was like, “Oh, maybe.” Thank you so much to whoever left it. 

Meagan: Maybe. Well, I love that review. And you know what? That’s okay if you are addicted to a podcast. I have podcasts that I’m addicted to and I always have an AirPod that I actually have lost now. There is one missing because apparently, I can’t put it right back in the case. I just sit there and I listen to my podcast in one ear and then do life in the other while I’m doing things and that’s okay. I love it though. I love that this podcast gives you hope. That is exactly why this podcast is the podcast. That is exactly why it is here. It’s to give people hope, inspiration, and motivation, and to empower you to make choices that are best for you for your birthing day. So thank you so much for that review. 

Mikaella’s Stories

Meagan: Okay, Mikaella. We are so excited to have Mikaella on. 

Mikaella: Hi. 

Meagan: Hi, yes. Thank you so much for taking the time today. You have a lot of things. You’re a photographer, right as well? 

Mikaella: Yes, yep. 

Meagan: Okay, and then you have three kiddos and you have been a 911 dispatcher for five years. Love that. That’s really cool. I love that you say trash reality TV is your guilty pleasure. That is so funny. I love that you also love Taco Bell because I have this weakness for Taco Bell too. In fact, we just went on a weekend trip for my daughter’s gymnastics meet in St. George, Utah and we got a taco from St. George. You guys, it’s the best Taco Bell taco I’ve ever had. Like seriously, St. George does it right. So when you are in St. George next time, you should go to Taco Bell. 

Julie: Meagan and Mikaella, you guys. I’m sorry but Taco Bell is not very good. 

Meagan: Do you know what? It depends on the Taco Bell because the Taco Bell by my house sucks. But St. George, holy cow. Even my husband was like, “That was the best Taco Bell ever.” I was like, “Right?” So I love that. I love that so much and I’m so excited to dive into this story because I love hearing the big baby stories. It sounds like you heard, “Big baby, big baby, big baby” for so long and so many people telling you that you’re not a good candidate for VBAC, and then boom. 

Julie: Boom. 

Mikaella: Basically, that’s the best way to put it. 

Meagan: So let’s turn the time over to you to share your stories and how this big baby and a non-VBAC candidate mom rocked her VBAC. 

Mikaella: So I have three kids. I have a five-year-old Claire, a three-year-old Boston, and then Charlie is my VBAC baby. I feel like Charlie’s VBAC story really starts with 21-year-old first-time mom Mikaella who knew nothing. I was along for the ride. I had no interest in pursuing any sort of birth education or anything like that especially with my mom’s own traumatic birth history so I was like, “Whatever happens happens. It’s fine.” For my first birth, that was okay. It wasn’t that big of a deal. I do wish I had been equipped with more knowledge, but it was smooth sailing for the most part. 

She came on her own the morning of my scheduled induction so I was already in labor when I got there anyway. My body was doing what it was supposed to do. She ended up being vacuum assisted because she was posterior and then it ended up being a trend with all of my babies with them being posterior so that was a really big worry I had with Charlie. 

It just felt like a normal birth experience. 

And then Boston because Claire’s was so normal, I went in feeling like, “Oh, nope. I’ve got it, no problem.” Then I was talked into an induction because I was along for the ride. I didn’t know the ins and outs and the cascade of interventions and things like that. I was induced about a week early with him. Both he and Claire, my labors were about 12 hours long with lots and lots and lots of pushing. But with him, I felt completely out of control from being induced and having my dura nicked with the epidural. Then I had some major blood loss that was still unexplained there in the middle which was pretty traumatic. With him, I pushed for hours as well and he was just not coming out. He was so stuck. 

My provider was not pushy at all actually. He was very, “Here are your options. You can keep pushing. We can try a vacuum with him too, but if he gets stuck, it’s going to be more complicated with him being farther down the birth canal.” 

So we opted for a C-section with him. I don’t know. I think I reacted really strongly to the extra medication because I was numb from the chin down. It was a very unpleasant experience which just added the whole out-of-control feeling. I went in there and as I’m feeling them tugging, I didn’t feel any pain which was great. I was feeling the tugging and then everybody starts laughing. I was like, “This is not the time to be laughing. What is going on?” They pulled him out and were like, “He’s huge.” He was. He was a 12-pound baby. 

There was probably no way I was actually going to get him out on my own, but ever since having him, everyone was like, “Oh you just make big babies,” because my first baby was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. He was 12 pounds. 

Julie: And he’s still such a big kid. 

Mikaella: He is a really big kid. 

Julie: He is so cute. 

Mikaella: He’s bigger than all of the other kids in my preschooler’s class and he’s only three. He’s just big like my whole mom’s side of the family. So after his birth, it took a long time to be able to talk about it out loud. I posted a really watered-down and foggy version on Facebook as a birth announcement post, but I don’t even remember writing half of it. I just remember feeling traumatized but not that the trauma was valid because I knew people with worse stories and that was something that I had to come to grips with. My trauma was still valid despite it not being maybe as bad as somebody else’s. 

Meagan: Totally, yeah. 

Mikaella: I knew we wanted more kids, but there was so much anxiety surrounding the decision of when to have more kids so there was a little bit more of a gap between Boston and Charlie. I was still pretty afraid of birth until I had a life-changing experience attending a birth as a photographer. It was actually for Jenessa who ended up being my doula later down the road but it was this beautiful, intimate home birth. I found it so healing. She was singing through her contractions and the atmosphere was just so sweet and loving. She was definitely in charge and she knew what she wanted. She was a practical stranger at that point, but it was still such a positive experience to watch her have such a positive birth experience. It was life-changing. 

So then when I got pregnant again, I knew I did not want a C-section just based on how the last one had felt. I didn’t even want an epidural based on the spinal headache I had gotten with my dura being nicked. I felt like having the epidural and not being able to move around during labor contributed a lot to both of my babies getting stuck, so I felt like being able to move in labor was going to be really important to me. 

My OB who delivered Boston was actually super supportive but I wasn’t allowed to VBAC at the hospital. Where I live is a really rural area. He said he would send me north whenever I went into labor, but I really wanted to know my birth team. With that it option, it was just, “You get who you get and hopefully they’re supportive of a VBAC too,” which I think we’ve all come to realize is hard to find VBAC-supportive providers. 

Meagan: Very, very, yeah.

Mikaella: So when I was looking for a provider, I went through so many, but I began my research. I met with multiple providers and I just kept hearing, “You make big babies. You make big babies,” because Claire was 8 pounds, 9 ounces, and Boston was 12 pounds. “You just make big babies and it would just be easier for you to have a C-section. Here are all of the risks and complications of a VBAC,” but no one wants to talk about the complications of a repeat C-section, right? 

This one particular OB, I don’t know if I can shout him out because he might be really upset. I want to make sure that no one else looking for a VBAC goes to him. He didn’t even give me the decency of a conversation before completely shutting me down. I had gone in. I spoke with the nurse. She was like, “Whatever you want, you get. You are the birthing mom.” I was feeling on cloud 9. I was even texting my husband, “This is going so well,” as she was checking me in. I guess the casual conversation that I was having with her about my birth history, she relayed to him in the five-minute span before he came into the room and that was all it took for him to decide that I was not a good candidate for a VBAC at all. 

He didn’t want to talk about the preparations I had made, that I had a doula, that I didn’t feel as big as I was with Boston. None of that even mattered. 

Meagan: He just put a label on you and was done.

Mikaella: Immediately. Immediately. There was no conversation about any of it. Not about my birth history. Even my original OB who delivered my last baby was like, “No, you can do that. That’s fine,” but it just said that it made him and his staff uncomfortable. I ended up at Valley Women’s Health, the Orem Midwives’ Group at 35 weeks pregnant and I just stuck with them because they were the first ones to not tell me no right away. 

There were still some things that I was hesitant about. There was a lot of, “You’ll have to do this and this and this. These are the requirements, but sure. We’ll try,” kind of thing. I did, however, have to go through a VBAC consultation at Utah Valley where they all discuss the risks of a VBAC. Nothing about the risks of a repeat C-section of course. They had me sign all of those forms and then had me do a growth scan which showed Charlie being about three weeks ahead. She was going to be absolutely massive according to them. 

I did not feel big at all at least compared to my last two. I was more active in this labor. I was eating healthily. I was doing all of the stretches and sitting in the right positions to make sure that she wasn’t posterior too. I just felt like I could do it. It really helped to feel like I was going to be in charge of this birth. My doula was very, very supportive all the way through. She was just like, “No. You’ve got this. You can do this. I know you and I know your willpower,” so she was a huge support that way and as well as my husband. He’s never not backed me on anything. He’s great. 

I should also add that the hospital where I was going to deliver is about an hour and a half away from me. Only like what, five minutes away from you, Julie? 

Julie: Yeah, it’s about 20 minutes from me, but super far from you. 

Mikaella: Okay, you’re a little bit further. I was thinking it was only about five minutes away. I was preparing to labor in the car. They had been like, “Are you sure you don’t want to be induced?” I was like, “Nope. I don’t want to intervene with this at all. My body is going to do its own process.” I was mentally preparing myself to labor for an hour and a half in our van. I had my husband get the puppy pads ready and line the bottom of the van with the puppy pads. 

I woke up to my strongest contraction at about 4:00 AM and that’s when I began timing them. I got in the shower to see if they would get closer together and then they started getting closer together really fast. The timeline is kind of foggy, but the contractions were so strong. I texted my doula at 5:30 letting her know that my contractions were about 5-7 minutes apart and that I was going to try and leave soon. She was going to have plenty of time because she was right next to the hospital, but in reality, I had only maybe two more contractions that far apart. 

It was just happening and happening really fast. I called my mom. She was getting ready to come over and I woke up Preston and had him load up the car while I was getting dressed. I do actually wish I had had him with me during those moments, but at that point, I thought we were still going to make the hour-and-a-half drive to the hospital, so I was like, “No. Get this. Get my bag. Get my charger. Throw all of the things in there,” the last minute things and grab whatever. Just throw it in the van.

So he was running around like crazy trying to make sure he’s got everything. I couldn’t even get my pants on in between the contractions. I was sitting in the same spot just powering through these contractions. I remember thinking, “There’s no way that I can do this unmedicated. I’m going to get that epidural as soon as I get to the hospital,” because all that I’ve heard in all of my research is that when you think you can’t do it anymore, that’s when you’re at the end. I was like, “Well, I just barely started. How am I supposed to make it any farther than this?” and not realizing that I was actually right there at the end with how quick it was all going. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Mikaella: Yeah. It was about 30 minutes later that I knew we were not going to make it up to Provo. I called my doula and I think that was all I said. “I think we’re not going to make it to the hospital.” She’s like, “Oh, okay. Well, get to Sanpete Valley,” the one that’s only 20 minutes away. “They can’t force you to do anything,” because that was my biggest worry. I was like, “I don’t want them to just throw me on a table as soon as I get there.” 

That contraction that I had on the phone with her was actually the only one that I was able to have my husband doing counterpressure for. I was just bracing myself against the tub. He’s doing his best because we really thought that I was going to have a doula there. She would be able to walk him through things. I wasn’t the most prepared. I’m not going to lie as far as the actual coping mechanisms, I think, that I was going to use. I had a metal comb that is used for dog grooming that I was clutching in my hand as tight as possible. 

Meagan: Powerful. 

Mikaella: Yep. I loved having that thing. That was a godsend honestly.  My mom arrived at about 6:15 and I was just holding onto her. It’s funny because the two births I attended were so peaceful and one like I said, Jenessa was singing through her contractions. It was a beautiful environment and then another friend of mine was low moaning. It was a quiet atmosphere still and I am just screaming. You could even hear it in the background of the 911 call that my husband had to make. I’m just losing it in the background. I’m like, “This is not the calm, cool atmosphere that I was expecting.”

But my mom got there. I had a super strong contraction and I was just feeling the irresistible urge to push. When I sat back up after that contraction, I felt my water which was bulging and that’s when I had to tell my husband to call 911. He was like, “Oh, okay. This is happening right now and right here. We are not making it to the hospital.” 

Because I am a 911 dispatcher, the operator that he called is my coworker, so I knew the instructions she was going to give me. I was not about to lay on my back even though she was about to tell me to. He kept telling me, “She says that you’ve got to get on my back.” “I am not getting on my back. That is not what I want to do right now. Just tell her to get the ambulance here. We’ll make it work.”

At that moment, I made it from my bedroom floor back to my bathroom which is the tiniest room in my house. I don’t know why I felt like I needed to be in there. But the EMT that lives around the corner arrived as I was crowning. I’m holding onto my mom. I did finally end up laying down, but she arrived as I’m crowning. With one push, Charlie’s head comes out and my EMT unwraps the cord that was wrapped around her neck. It was wrapped around twice so she was super nervous– the EMT was. 

Another push and she was out. She was super pink. She was a really healthy color. What was really cool was that this whole time, despite it not being my plan at all, there was no fear. There was never a sense of, “This is going wrong.” There was a little bit of panic and there were a lot of self-doubts there in that first hour, but there was no fear. I just was able to trust my body and know what I was doing despite none of it going to plan whatsoever which was a really cool experience. 

Then they load me up into the ambulance. They took me to the hospital which was where I delivered my placenta. We actually were only there for six hours because, for some reason when you don’t deliver at the hospital, they’re like, “Oh, you can actually go home,” which seemed backward to me but I wasn’t about to fight it. Jenessa and Julie arrived around the same time. I didn’t even call Julie myself. I just told Jenessa, I was like, “Please call Julie and let her know what’s going on.” 

The rest is history. It was just the most amazing redemptive birth. I got basically everything I wanted. I had written out a list of birth goals that I had wanted and on that list was intermittent monitoring which, I didn’t end up having any monitoring. Getting my VBAC was super important which I got. I didn’t have to have an epidural. I didn’t even have to get an IV. It was just completely and 100% me and that felt incredibly powerful. 

It’s been a really, really cool story to share especially to other moms who are looking to do VBACs and stuff like that, especially after I was told, “You make big babies. You make big babies.” 

This was another big baby. She was a 9.5-pound baby who came out on my bathroom floor with no tearing whatsoever. I did that.  

Meagan: And you did it. You did it very quickly. Very, very quickly. 

Mikaella: Very, very quickly. From the first contraction that woke me up to her being born was about 2.5 hours total compared to the 12 hours each for my first two kids. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. That is amazing. That is so amazing. I’m sure on Julie’s end, she was like, “Oh my gosh. I’ve got to make it. I’ve got to get there.” 

Julie: Well, let me tell you. Can I tell you my version really fast?

Mikaella: Yes. 

Julie: So I met Mikaella. Oh, I don’t even remember. It was a month or something like that before you had your baby or something like that? I was excited because I’ve had clients in the past drive up from 2.5 hours away up here to have their VBACs, so I love those stories. I love people that really want to fight for it. We connected and I got pulled onto the team. I was excited to do a birth with Jenessa as well.

 

But that morning, I got a phone call from Jenessa. I want to say it was around 6:00 or 6:30, somewhere around there. It might be a little earlier. She told me that you were in labor, that you had to change plans and go to the local hospital instead, and that you were just going to wing it, push for your VBAC, and fight if you needed to. You were prepared to do that, but things were moving quickly and you weren’t going to make it up to Orem. I was groggy and half awake. I’m like, “So does she still want me to come?”

I think I asked that or whatever because you know when you’re half awake, I’m like, “I have no idea what to say.” She said, “Yeah. Get dressed and start heading down.” She said she was on her way, so I got dressed and I grabbed my cameras and gear, and headed out. It was about an hour and twenty-minute drive for me or maybe just an hour. I’m not quite sure exactly. 

So I started heading down and then I was just like, “Please don’t let me miss this birth. Please don’t let me miss this birth.” I was so frustrated because I had missed two other births already this summer because of people having fast babies. I had one VBAC client that went from 3 centimeters to baby in an hour and they didn’t call me in until she was pushing. I was like, “Why, why, why?” and then the other client that I missed had only a 41-minute labor and it was a 46-minute drive for me. 

I was on my way and I was like, “Please don’t let me miss this birth. Please not another one. Please not another one.” But I was excited to be going and supporting Mikaella. As soon as I was getting ready to go through the canyon in Spanish Fork which is about halfway there, I got another call from Jenessa and she said, “She just delivered her baby on the bathroom floor.” I was like, “What?! She didn’t even make it to the hospital?” I was so surprised. And yes, I was absolutely super sad to miss it, but I’m also super happy that Mikaella got everything she wanted. 

It’s funny because we have pictures and video clips of you reading off your list of everything that you wanted and stuff. That was super fun to go. I still kept heading down and we did a nice golden hour session. I was there for a few hours with them and the kids came in to meet baby and everything. But it was wild. This summer was wild. There were so many crazy things happening with births and babies. I just actually had a 9.5-pound baby born about a week ago even, a 9-pound, 7-ounce birth center birth. I just love seeing these big babies come flying out into the world just as fierce as they want to be. I love it. I love your story. It’s so wild. I’m excited that you get to tell it today. 

Mikaella: It’s so fun. I love being able to tell it. I think it’s really cool that Charlie’s got that story that she can tell now too. Now even, she’s got news articles that she can look back on. 

Meagan: Yes, I was going to say that you said earlier that the news had contacted you and you were on the news. How did that story get out? Were they just like, “Oh my gosh, this accidental home birth.” Did they talk about VBAC in there too? 

Mikaella: It was very interesting to see how they took my story and spun it. I won’t say it wasn’t factual, but they definitely put a certain light on it I guess you could say. Our local ambulance, two or three more of my coworkers work in the ambulance too so I’m really close with a lot of them. 

Meagan: I would really like to see this article. 

Julie: I’ll send it to you or she can send it to you. One of us. 

Mikaella: I think that there’s a video as well as an actual written one. So basically, our local hospital does an EMS highlight at the end of the year and they decided that they were going to highlight Ephraim's ambulance this year which is where I’m from and the story that they were going to highlight was Charlie’s story. A big emphasis was put on the EMT which I totally appreciate her. I love her. She was a godsend in that moment that she was there and she knew what to do especially with the cord wrapped around Charlie’s neck. 

There was not a lot about me in the article which I find interesting. It’s not as much about the birthing mother despite it being a birth story. So when the interviewers actually came over to my house, we were just having a casual chitchat before the actual filming and the interview began. They were saying, “The hospital was worried that this was going to make people want to have a home birth. They were worried that we were advocating for a home birth.” She’s like, “You weren’t planning on having a home birth, right?” 

Julie: What? 

Mikaella: Yeah. I was like, “Not that there’s anything wrong with having a home birth, but no. That wasn’t the plan.” I was like, “It is now if I have another one. I’m probably just going to have it at home.” I found it interesting that the hospital was like, “Oh, we don’t want to promote home birth because that’s risky,” or whatever. 

Then in the article, it was very much about EMS which is fine because it was their highlight, but they kept saying, “The baby that came early, the baby that came early.” I was like, “She didn’t come early.” She came maybe two days early before her due date, but she just came fast. 

Julie: Oh my gosh. What got me was like, “The cord was around her neck and it was so emergent.” They went and talked about how the cord wrapped around her neck was that they saved your baby’s life. That’s what people say. That’s what people think, but we all know that the cord around the neck, 99% of the time is not a problem. 

Mikaella: Exactly. The EMT that delivered her is wonderful. I have fostered a relationship now with her after the fact and I know a lot of people that work on the crew, so I didn’t mind them getting a little highlight, but it was very interesting to see how they spun it there at the end and how they spliced it together. I know they were trying to work with what they had because I was so nervous about sharing my story that I was kind of all over the place. Preston had to keep anchoring me and be like, “Don’t forget about this part of the story. Don’t forget about this part of the story.” I’m like, “Oh right. I know.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Mikaella: It’s interesting, yeah. 

Meagan: It just goes to show just in general with news how things can be spun and taken a little bit more out of context to make it sound different or more desirable in one factor or another. When you have a perfectly safe, beautiful, vaginal birth after Cesarean with a larger-sized baby that was a fast, precipitous labor and then this amazing EMT comes in and they just help. How awesome it was that they were there. There was this nuchal cord and how nervewracking it was for them, but they knew what to do. They were trained and they helped. 

Instead of just talking like that, it’s a little different so it’s kind of funny to think about that but still so cool that Charlie can go back and see and be like, “Look. I even made it into the news because I came so fast.”

Mikaella: Exactly, exactly. Yep. Not a lot of big things happen in our tiny town. 

Meagan: Yeah, yes. So oh my gosh, well thank you so much both Mikaella and Julie for being with us today. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: One of the things I just want to talk about really, really fast is something that you were talking about from your second birth. You say that you had trauma but you know other people have more intense trauma or whatever. 

Mikaella: Right. 

Meagan: I don’t want you to discredit the trauma that you did have because, for you as an individual, the trauma that exists exists. It’s okay and sometimes I feel like it’s just natural for us to be like, “Well, I know I didn’t have to have this, this, this, or this happens like that person which is more traumatic.” It seems more traumatic to the listening ear, but at the same time, you personally went through this traumatic situation. It’s okay. You can own that and be like, “This was very traumatic for me and it sucked. I had to work through this.” 

I want everyone out there to know that it’s okay. It’s okay to accept your trauma and recognize that it is trauma because that’s one of the hardest parts is recognizing that it’s traumatic. I’m proud of you for recognizing that, “Yes. This is traumatic for me.” Even Julie I’m sure would have situations with her own births or her clients’ births where sometimes we walk away as doulas and we’re like, “It doesn’t seem very traumatic to them,” but it was really traumatic for me and I wasn’t even the one going through it. I was an observer and went through it that way, but it wasn’t happening to me. Trauma just exists so differently for everyone. So for everyone listening out there, one recognizing your trauma like Mikaella did is so important. I know for me, I think I told the story of how I was in the driveway stomping around processing trauma that I didn’t even realize that I still had. 

Trauma is one of the best things that you can do, so I want to just really quickly talk about Julie because Julie is on the podcast today too. She actually did a really cool YouTube video on our YouTube at The VBAC Link and it’s a smokeless– 

Julie: Smokeless unless you have lots of people doing it. 

Meagan: Yes, we did it one time with a lot of people and we definitely had smoke. 

Julie: We set off the fire alarm. That was awesome. 

Meagan: Yes we did. But yeah, check it out because even the smallest traumas may resonate largely inside and impact the result. So definitely check that out on YouTube at The VBAC Link. It’s smokeless fear release. 

Julie: Smokeless fire fear release. 

Can I add something really fast about trauma because you know how I am with trauma? 

Meagan: Yeah, you’ve learned a lot about trauma. 

Julie: I went through a big, massive trauma-processing PTSD thing in 2021 and it was super intense. It was a lot of therapy and a lot of sessions. There were group sessions and everything like that. One thing that is so interesting is how everybody perceives their trauma differently. I feel like everybody feels like, “Oh, my trauma is not as bad” or “This person’s trauma is way worse.” 

Meagan: We compare. We compare. 

Julie: Yeah, we do. There are people that are like, “I never would have survived the things that you went through in your childhood,” and I was like, “Dude. Are you kidding me? You saw this and this and that and I can’t even imagine going through that.” It’s really interesting because we do. We tend to compare, but one thing that I’ve learned through that process and one thing that I tell people, one thing that I want people to remember and know and one thing that I want to remember myself whenever I am feeling like maybe my stuff is not as bad as somebody else’s is that trauma is trauma. There’s no capital trauma or small trauma. It’s trauma. 

The thing about trauma is our bodies and minds respond the same no matter what that trauma is. There are physical and emotional symptoms that come when trauma happens and those symptoms are the same no matter if you feel like your trauma is more or less than another person’s. All of the symptoms are the same. We all go through those same things. Our bodies feel it the same. It may manifest differently and things like that, but trauma responses are trauma responses. And processing through them, it doesn’t matter what caused the trauma.

The trauma is there and it lives there. That is something that we all have the same. You know what I mean? No matter what the trauma was. I think that I see it so much Mikaella. When you said that, I was like, “I want to talk about this.” But yeah. Don’t discount it because it lives inside of you the same as everybody else’s does no matter what the circumstances were. 

Mikaella: Definitely.

Meagan: Yes. I love that. I love that and it is pretty crazy to think about all of the women that have experienced birth trauma. I mean, it’s upward towards 1 in 9 of people who are actually diagnosed, and then think about all of the people that don’t seek help. We’ve got a lot of trauma out there. It makes me sad that it happens, but I love that you said that. I love that so much. So thank you. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Mikaella: Something I’ve noticed too on the trauma side is that so many women don’t recognize it as trauma because they have been conditioned to think that birth is just a big, scary, traumatic thing that happens. When you have that trauma, that’s just what comes along with birth, but hey, at least you’re still here. 

My mom has her own traumatic birth history and she would not say it’s not traumatic. She would definitely be the first to tell you, “No. That was trauma.” But my mother-in-law and I have sisters-in-law and they have all had one thing or another, but it’s like, “Well, but my baby and me are here so it’s fine.” 

Meagan: Exactly. 

Mikaella: The trauma is still so valid and it took me a long time to realize that and push against what has been perceived as normal for so long to recognize that no, it was traumatic for me. Just because it wasn’t as bad as somebody else’s or just because the baby and I are here and healthy, that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t traumatic. Due to that trauma, it took me a long time to even see a doctor when I found out that I was pregnant because I was like, “Nope because that makes it real. That makes this pregnancy real.” 

So even after having some healing experiences, it was still like my body was postponing calling the doctor and making an appointment. My body was postponing and putting off all of the things that I needed to do to prepare. It had its own kind of trauma response. 

Meagan: Exactly. That’s one of the reasons why I congratulate you for recognizing that because so often, I didn’t even recognize it until I was in labor and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I have all of these trauma factors that I’m now letting out in labor.” It’s so hard. It’s natural, I feel like, for our minds to downplay it and be like, “Well, but I got this so I shouldn’t be traumatized or I shouldn’t have fear or I shouldn’t have sadness because I do have my baby and I’m okay overall,” but that doesn’t mean we have to write it off. We don’t have to write it off. We don’t have to push it down the tunnel and just forget it ever happened because we have a healthy mom and a healthy baby. 

There was one birth that I was at here in Murray and the mom ended up having a Cesarean. It was a, I would say, pushed Cesarean more than a needed Cesarean. She didn’t want it and she was crying. Lots of things were happening and I ended up going into the OR on this. It was a traumatic Cesarean. It really was. And then after, the doctor said to me, he pulled me aside and he goes, “Well, isn’t she just happy now that she has her baby? Can’t she just let all of that stuff go?” Because I stepped out to give them a moment because they were really upset. I just wanted to let them be together. It was clear to me that they just wanted a moment just the two of them and their baby. 

I said, “I don’t think it works that way.” He goes, “Well, that’s how it should work.” 

Julie: Wow. 

Meagan: I will never, ever forget that. It was like, “You totally just pushed her trauma aside. You did your job. You got the baby here, but now what happened leading up to that, what happened during it, and what’s happening after shouldn’t matter because she has her baby here.”

Julie: Well, that’s totally gaslighting. I mean, come on. 

Meagan: It was bad. He didn’t say that to her. I hope that he never did, not that I know of it, but he said that to me. I was like, “You totally just discredited everything that she just experienced.” I was very frustrated. 

Julie: I hate the system. 

Meagan: You know, it’s hard.

Julie: I really do. 

Meagan: It’s hard because I’m sure overall in his head, he just doesn’t understand. He doesn’t understand. He didn’t experience that. 

Julie: Yep. 

Meagan: But that doesn’t mean she should just be okay. So if you’re one of those moms, and I’m going to tell you that there are lots of us out there that are like, “Okay, well it’s okay because it’s fine. I’m fine. I’ll heal. My baby’s here fine and safe.” We all should be glad and happy about that, but it’s okay to accept that. It’s okay to say, “You know, that was really hard. I didn’t like that” or “That was triggering for me.” Like Julie said, the mind and the body and everything, we’ve got to work through it and we’ve got to accept it and it’s really hard too. 

Mikaella: I want to add even if it’s not necessarily traumatic, you’re also still allowed to mourn a birth experience that you didn’t get to have. Even if there was zero trauma involved, if you had something in your mind that you were working towards and didn’t get it, that’s still so valid. I know with Boston, my C-section, at the end I feel like it was necessary. I didn’t feel pushed toward it or anything. I don’t know that it would have been necessary had I gone without all of the interventions leading up to the C-section. At that point, the C-section was necessary but I definitely mourned the experience of not having a second vaginal birth. 

I feel like a lot of women feel that way because it’s like, “Well, your baby is here and you’re fine. Your birth wasn’t even traumatic, so what’s the matter?” But you’re more than allowed to mourn a birth experience that you didn’t get to have. 

Meagan: Right. Julie and I have talked about that all of these years on the podcast. It’s okay to be happy for your baby and everything but also mourn. You don’t have to only be happy or only be mourning or grieving the experience. They can go together. You can grieve the experience that you didn’t receive while also being happy for your newborn baby. 

Mikaella: Exactly. 

Julie: Yep. It’s complicated. It feels complicated, but it’s not morally right or morally wrong to mourn the loss of a birth experience you wanted while being incredibly excited about your new baby. It’s not. It’s not morally right or morally wrong. It just is. It’s okay to feel these things. It’s okay to sit with them and it’s okay for it to feel complicated. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Okay, ladies well thank you so much again for being here with us today. I do. I love your story. Honestly, I long for that birth. We’re done having kids. We definitely are not having anymore, but I kind of long for it. Those fast, precipitous births can be really, really crazy and very intense because your body is doing a lot but it kind of sounds really fun too. 

Mikaella: I honestly enjoyed it. Out of all three, that was my most enjoyable birth and the easiest recovery afterward. I got to experience spontaneous pushing or the pushing reflex. The ejection reflex was so incredible because, with my other two, I pushed for hours and hours. It started as, “Let’s do practice pushing,” and then it was just pushing and pushing. It was exhausting. So getting to feel the ejection reflex was honestly awesome. Painful, but it was awesome. Getting to just check all of those things off of my list and knowing that I can do it and taking charge of my own birth there at the end was really incredible. 

Meagan: I love it. Well, thank you. On that note, we will just leave on the positive. It was incredible, that positive note. Thank you again, both of you. 

Mikaella: Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Our friend Necey joins us with her inspiring five birth stories today! Necey had a scheduled Cesarean for her first birth, a redemptive VBAC for her third, two scheduled C-sections after that, and a VBAC after three Cesareans for her fifth baby. 

She shares how her VBA3C was a spiritual journey that gave her the strength to advocate among skeptics and have faith in herself to follow the path she knew she needed to take. We are so in awe of Necey’s powerful stories!

Additional Links

Necey's Family YouTube Channel

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Hello, you guys. It’s February and we have more beautiful stories coming your way. Today we have our friend Necey. Her name is Donice but she goes by Necey. She has a whole bunch of stories. She is unique because she is a VBAC and then a VBAC after two Cesareans. She has five cute kiddos and she had an unexpected Cesarean like a lot of us do, then a VBAC, and then two Cesareans, and then a VBAC. I think it’s cool that you have a VBAC after multiple Cesareans and then you have a VBAC. I’m so excited for her to share her stories today, all five of them. So amazing. 

Review of the Week

But of course, we have a review of the week. I’m going to share it from koggli. Sorry, I always butcher the names. The subject is “The Reason I Got My VBAC.” It says, “I cannot thank these ladies enough for the impact they had on me and my second birth. My first was a 24-hour labor with an emergency C-section. After delivering my precious son, I was sure I never wanted to go through a C-section again. Through their knowledge and resources, I was able to feel much more prepared for my second birth. Because of these ladies and all of the ones who have also shared all of their testimonies, I had a successful VBAC in October 2020 with a little girl.” She had a little boy and then she had a little girl. 

“Now I am preparing for my second VBAC with another little girl due October 2022” which means at this time of recording, she just had her baby a couple of months ago. So koggli, if you are listening, please write us. Let us know how it went. It says, “Because of them, I became so passionate for VBACs and the beautiful redemption they can bring. Thank you, ladies.” 

Well, thank you koggli. So excited for you. Congrats on your VBAC. I can’t wait, I hope, to hear about your second VBAC. So as usual, we love reviews from you guys. They are so amazing. They warm my heart. You can leave them in all sorts of different ways. You can do it on Apple Podcasts, Google, Instagram, and Facebook or just email us at [email protected]. Whatever it may be, we would love to know what you think about the podcast. 

Necey’s Stories 

Meagan: Okay. I can’t wait. Let’s dive into your stories. Five stories. Obviously, everyone starts with a C-section, so let’s dive into that. 

Necey: Okay. First, I want to say thank you for allowing me to be able to come on your podcast and share my story with you and your listeners. Okay, so first we’re going to talk about Joshua. He’s my firstborn. When I got pregnant with him, it was my first one. I didn’t know anything about anything. 

Meagan: Right? You just don’t know what you don’t know. You know you’re going to have a baby. That’s what that pregnancy test confirms, right?

Necey: Yes, yes. I just didn’t take good care of myself. I was eating. I was just happy to be pregnant so I took it as an excuse to eat whatever I wanted. I gained a lot of weight rapidly. Around 7 months, I ended up getting diagnosed with gestational diabetes. That made me have to go to the doctor more often, sometimes twice a week, and get a lot of non-stress tests. I didn’t know what I was doing or what the tests were for. 

So then at around 37 weeks, I went in and got a non-stress test done. I didn’t pass it. They said that he wasn’t moving the way they wanted him to move and therefore, they took me to get an ultrasound to make sure that he was still doing okay. The measured fluid and everything. The nurse ended up calling the doctor. The doctor said to have me go home and have me come back in the morning, and if it’s the same then we’ll go from there. 

So fast forward, my husband and I come back the next day. Nothing changed, so they said that they were going to have to keep me at the hospital I was at because it wasn’t the original one I was supposed to be at. They said it was because it had a children’s hospital inside. 

Meagan: A NICU, uh-huh. 

Necey: Yes. They wanted to make sure that if there were any complications with him that we would have the option. They ended up taking me up to labor and delivery. I thought I was going to get induced, but once I got up there, and when the doctor came, my family was there and she just was like, “We’re going to do a C-section.” I was like, “Okay.” 

Meagan: Oh!

Necey: Yeah. I was just like, “Okay.” We didn’t know. 

Meagan: Right. 

Necey: I heard the nurse ask her, “You’re not going to induce her? You’re just going to give her a C-section?” The doctor was like, “Yeah. Just going to give her a C-section.” I didn’t know. I was just like, “Okay.” So I did the C-section and everything went good, no complications. As she was pulling him out, she said, “Oh, that’s what happened. The cord was wrapped tightly around his neck.” I now know that just because the cord is wrapped around the neck doesn’t mean that you cannot deliver your baby vaginally. 

Meagan: Correct, yeah. It actually happens all of the time. Babies come out with nuchal cords all of the time. 

Necey: Yeah. So you know, I was just like, “Okay.” I was just happy that my baby was born. He was born 6 pounds, 11 ounces I believe via C-section. Everything went good. I was just happy to be a first-time mom. 

So for my second pregnancy/baby, I had another son, Reggie the Third. He was actually a successful VBAC. The pregnancy was fine. No complications and no gestational diabetes which I was happy about that. Everything was fine. I actually went into early labor with him on Thanksgiving Day.

Meagan: Oh, a turkey baby. 

Necey: Yes. I guess it was all of the food. And then so I actually was going some Black Friday shopping because I never had labor before. My husband and I were at the store and I kept going back and forth to the bathroom. I was just telling him, “I don’t know. It keeps feeling like I have to go to the bathroom but nothing is happening. It’s kind of weird.” He was just like, “Okay.” So one time when I was going back to him, I ended up having a contraction that stopped me in my tracks. I was like, “Wait a minute. Is this possible? Oh, a contraction.” So I was like, “Okay. Oh, Lord. Just let me make it through this so I can get back to him because I don’t know what’s going on.” 

I made it back to him and I was like, “I think we need to go home because I feel like I may be having contractions.” He was just like, “Okay.” So I got home, called the exchange line, and told them what was going on. They wanted me to go on and get checked out. I did and I went about midnight. They let me go at about 8:00 in the morning and said I was contracting. I just didn’t have any change. 

I went home and relaxed. At around 6:00, so that was Thursday, then Friday around 6:00, I started to have contractions. I was like, “Wait a minute. It’s time now.” So I had my sister and my sister-in-law, so family over. I ended up on all fours making this moaning sound. My sister is on the phone calling my doctor. My sister-in-law is massaging my back and she was like, “I’m almost sure you’re in labor.” 

So they said to go back and I went back. They checked me and I was about 4-5 centimeters dilated. So they said, “Yeah, you’re in labor.” Active labor is what they called it. I immediately asked for an epidural. I didn’t even try to labor. I was like, “Give it to me. I want it now.” 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s okay. 

Necey: Although I had the epidural, for some reason, I still felt my son. He felt like he was coming out of me. Some hours had passed, maybe about 8 or 9 hours or so, but before that, the nurse ended up checking me and she was like, “You’re complete. I just have to wait until the doctor comes.” She called the doctor and I was like, “I think I feel him.” She was like, “Oh, I just checked you. You’re good. You’re complete. You’ve got time,” is what she said. She had me do some practice pushes and as they had my legs open, my mom and my mother-in-law were like, “Oh, I think you need to close your legs.” 

Meagan: I thought I had time.

Necey: Right? I was like, “Okay, why? He’s right there, isn’t he?” She was like, “Yeah.” So then the doctor ended up coming. Actually, I had a resident. He ended up coming in and the doctor soon followed. I didn’t even get to push. I pushed a time and a half. I didn’t even get to push hard or anything. He just came right out. I think my body had already done it for me, just unaware that that’s what it was doing. He was born 6 pounds, 14 ounces. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Necey: Yes, so I’m in the 6-pound range. So yeah. 

Then for my third baby, Miss Addison, my first baby girl, the same thing. No gestational diabetes. The pregnancy was actually good. We were on track for another VBAC, but around 40 weeks, I went in for my check-up and the doctor was just like, “I wonder why you haven’t gone into labor.” I was actually thinking the same thing. So she said to follow her to the ultrasound room. I did and she did a quick check to examine and she was like, “Oh, that’s what’s going on. She’s transverse inside of you.”

Meagan: Sideways. 

Necey: Yeah. I had no clue what that meant. I was just like, “Okay, transverse.” I’ve heard of breech or head-down. She told me to come back the next day and do an EVC.

Meagan: ECV. 

Necey: ECV, I’m sorry. 

Meagan: It’s a version where they are trying to manually, from the outside, rotate the baby. 

Necey: Yes. She said if that was successful, then good. If not, we would have to do another C-section. So of course, it wasn’t successful and I didn’t know anything about Spinning Babies or anything like that because I probably would have tried some of those things, but yes. We ended up going for a C-section, got prepped, and for some reason, when they got me to the operating room, I became very panicked. I started shouting and asking them to get me up. I didn’t want to do it. The whole team lifted me up and the doctor talked to me. She calmed me down. We went on with the C-section. Everything went good. She was actually 8 pounds even. 

Meagan: A big jump, about a pound heavier than your other babies. 

Necey: Yes, so I don’t know how or why, but that’s what it was. 

So for my next pregnancy/birth, it was my daughter Madeline. Her pregnancy was good too with no complications and no gestational diabetes again. However, I was still with the same provider, so since I had two Cesareans, she said she wasn’t comfortable with doing a vaginal because I actually unknowingly started to advocate for myself with her. I just asked. I asked and asked. She always told me no, so I was just like, “Okay.” I didn’t think I had another choice, but I did try to compromise with her. 

I was like, “If I go into labor before the scheduled date, can I just have her vaginally or try it out?” She was like, “I guess. I really don’t want to do it, but maybe so.” I didn’t go into labor though. So I went to the scheduled Cesarean and I think for my last birth, I had trauma so I was just scared. I started to panic again. This time, it was before we got into the operating room. It was right after they gave me the spinal tap. It was so bad. It was really bad. I was a little embarrassed, but they ended up saying that they had to give me some medicine. They ended up giving me Xanax. I was scared because they said it was not good for the baby. It messes with the baby’s heart. They were like, “We really don’t have another option because we really need you calm.” So I just agreed. 

But after I got that, I didn’t even know what it was, but I was really relaxed. I didn’t have a care in the world. We did the C-section and Madeline was born. She was 6 pounds, 12 ounces. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Necey: I know. So I don’t know. But yeah. It was good and no complications, just the panic attack. Oh, and you know what? Yes. My husband did say that she didn’t respond. I didn’t know because I was out of it. And so he said that he got scared because she didn’t respond for a while. I’m just assuming it was because of the medicine, but she was fine. I just thank God that she was okay. 

I was very depressed after that. I think it was a trauma for me, so I didn’t want to have any more babies. I didn’t want to go through the delivery process or any of that. I ended up getting pregnant again. 

Meagan: Oops, someone else had a plan for you. 

Necey: Yep. So with this pregnancy and birth, I knew deep inside that I didn’t want to do it, but I was okay with having another C-section. I wasn’t looking to be pregnant. It was actually at the end of the COVID lockdown, so I have all of these friends and I see people having these babies and I tell my husband, “We missed the wave. We did good.” And then nope, we got caught right up in the wave. 

So yeah. Her story is a journey for me. I didn’t realize I had trauma with the rest of the other two births before her. One day while I was minding my business and having some alone time, I heard the Holy Spirit tell me that I was pregnant, that I was going to have my baby vaginally, that I needed to call my sister to have her bring me some pregnancy tests, and that this is going to be a faith entrenched journey between me and God. 

Meagan: That just gave me the chills. 

Necey: I’m telling you, I was scared. I thought I was tripping. I said, “No, I am not,” but I decided to be obedient, so I called my sister. She came over with three pregnancy tests and sure enough, every single one of them was positive. 

Meagan: Pregnant!

Necey: My husband and I were like, “How did this happen?” We thought we were doing good, but when God has other plans for us, His plan always trumps what we want to do. I remember my friend telling me that she ended up not going to doctors anymore. She ended up doing midwives. She told me that they had done research that the midwives are saying that there is more research out saying that it’s possible for people to have vaginal births after multiple Cesareans. 

Meagan: At this point, you’ve had three technically, right? You’ve had a vaginal birth in between, but you’ve had three. 

Necey: Yes. I had three. I called the midwifery info she gave to me. They said no. They said maybe if it would have been one that they would be able to do it, but they gave me the information for somebody else. I called them. They said no. After that, it was just a rabbit hole with a lot of no’s, so I decided to call my previous doctor although I had that trauma. I just didn’t really feel as comfortable as I did once with her. It was just familiar to me. 

Meagan: Some comfort there and familiarity.

Necey: Yes. I ended up calling her and went to my appointment, but that was the last appointment I went to her because she did a couple of things that I feel like as a provider, you just shouldn’t do even as a person. It’s like she was passively trying to get me to get a tubal done. 

Meagan: Oh. 

Necey: Yes. She was like, “I need to know if you want to get a tubal or not because I need to schedule your C-section at a different hospital so we can do it all at the same time.” I was like, “Okay.” I didn’t say anything to her. I didn’t plan on getting one, but even if I did or didn’t, I didn’t say anything. I actually wanted to talk to her about having my baby vaginally. 

Meagan: Right, yeah. 

Necey: That was a red flag and I just said, “Okay.” Then the second thing was that she asked me about the routine testing that most doctors do which is fine. I didn’t have a problem with it. It’s just that she started to say because I told her that I didn’t know. I would tell her at the next visit. She was just like, “Well, the sooner the better in case your baby has any disabilities and you want to terminate your pregnancy.”

Meagan: Oh, whoa. 

Necey: Yes. I was shocked because I couldn’t believe she had said that to me. But for me, if that’s what God wanted to bless me with a baby with disabilities, I’m okay with that because I’m going to do what I need to do. I just thought that was kind of out of line that she would do that. It hurt my feelings a little bit, but I was like, “Okay. This is the only choice I have.” The third thing was after we were wrapping up and she was leaving out, she said in a low tone but I could hear her clearly, she was like, “Well, thanks for keeping us in business.” 

I was like, “Okay. Have a good day.” 

Meagan: Maybe a little unprofessional. 

Necey: Yeah. But I had been with her since my second birth and my second pregnancy, so that was just new for me. I decided I wasn’t going to go back to her. That was in January. I found out I was pregnant in November, so from the beginning of January to the end of February, I didn’t have a doctor. I’m calling. I actually wrote a letter to one of the head obstetricians in my area of a big institution where I’m from. She actually called me back. That phone call had me in tears because he basically was laughing at me literally and telling me that it is a joke. No institution here would ever–

Meagan: He went out of his way to call you back to tell you that you are a joke. 

Necey: Yes, that, “No institution in our area or anywhere is going to allow TOLAC after three Cesareans.” I was just like, “Okay, God. Why would you tell me this? Why would you have me go down this road if it’s not true? This is impossible. Nobody is going to let me do this.” After I went on my rant, I was just like, “Whatever.” I just kept going. I kept on and ended up finding a doctor who ended up giving me a referral to a high-risk clinic here. 

But in between that time, I ended up hiring a doula. I suggest anybody that’s pregnant, get a doula if you can. I ended up joining some Facebook groups and following people on Instagram. It’s where I found you guys, The VBAC Link Community and it was so encouraging for me just to know that I wasn’t alone. There are people out there who are going through the same things. 

I ended up going to the high-risk clinic and they told me that they were going to accept me as a patient. Of course, they told me all of the cons of TOLACing after three Cesareans. They said that they suggested that I get a repeat C-section. I told them that I didn’t want to do it, but this was the first time that I understood that even if I didn’t want to do it and someone forced me to it, they said that it was assault. I said, “Is it?” They were like, “Yeah. If you don’t consent to it, we can’t do that.” I was like, “Oh. Okay.”

But yeah, so to her birth. My water ended up breaking. I did want to say that they told me they would absolutely not induce me. No Pitocin. I had done a little research, so I knew that. They said that Pitocin can increase uterine rupture rates or the percentage of it, so I wanted to stay away from it. They had told me that. 

That Wednesday, fast forward to my labor and birth with her, my water broke at 1:00 AM on Wednesday. I never had experienced that before, so I’m like, “I think that’s what it is,” because it kept coming out in gushes. I had a doctor’s appointment Thursday morning, so I tried to do some walking to try to get things moving because I wasn’t contracting. I didn’t feel anything. 

I went to the doctor Thursday morning and told them what had happened. Of course, they wanted me to go to triage and get checked out to get the test done to make sure that it was actually my water. We went home. We didn’t go back right away. We waited a long time. We went back at 11:00 at night, got the test done, and it was my water. 

I had to be admitted and I was scared, but I knew the word that I had so I held on to it. We got upstairs and the first resident that came in was really forceful and was like, “You have to sign this paper saying that you are declining the C-section.” We were like, “Okay. Can you give us a second?” 

The nurse that we had was really, really good, the first nurse. Both nurses. She talked to me. She consoled me. She explained things further than what the resident was saying. My husband and I ended up signing the paper, but I still had no change. My water was ruptured. 

Meagan: Were you contracting? Okay, yeah. Just ruptured, but nothing happening yet. 

Necey: Yes ma’am. They ended up telling me that I had to get induced. 

Meagan: You’re like, “But they said they wouldn’t.” 

Necey: Yes. So my husband and I were scared. I was like, “I don’t know about that. I thought you guys said I wasn’t going to be able to do that.” They were like, “Basically, your options are to get Pitocin or have a repeat C-section.” The nurse was really nice. We asked her if we could take a second to just pray and talk among ourselves. She was like, “Okay,” but she stayed there. She didn’t leave. 

Meagan: Amongst ourselves like him and I and a doula. 

Necey: Yes. Yes. So we looked at each other and that’s what we kind of said. She was like, “Oh, well I wanted to pray with you guys.” Yeah. It was so shocking. I wasn’t expecting it. We said, “Okay.” After she prayed, the atmosphere just changed. I was like, “You know what?” I’m taking this hospital gown off. I brought my own gown. I’m putting that on. I had the affirmation vision board that I had made. I pulled that out. I turned off the lights. We brought LED light candles and lit the room up and put on our worship music and just went in. I’m like, “You did something there,” talking to the nurse. 

They started me on Pitocin. I told them I wanted to start at 0.5. They said they don’t usually do that. They usually start around 2. I told them I was scared and that I would rather start off low and work my way up. They ended up saying, “Okay.”

Meagan: Good for you. 

Necey: So then the doula ended up getting there. This was around 3:00 PM. She was there and I started contracting. They put in an internal fetal monitor, I think is what it’s called. 

Meagan: An FSC or an IUPC. A lot of times with VBAC or TOLAC, they put this IUPC monitor in to tell them exactly the strength of the contractions so they can manipulate the Pitocin. The FSC is the little probe monitor that goes on the baby’s head to tell them exactly what the heart rate is. 

Necey: Yeah, they put the one– 

Meagan: IUPC, intrauterine pressure catheter is what it’s called. 

Necey: Okay, you got it. But yeah, so they did that. Between 3:00 and I would say around 10:00ish, I was still just at a 3. The contractions were getting stronger and they didn’t want to check me often because my waters were broken. They didn’t want to introduce infection. I was, is it B strep positive? 

Meagan: Group B strep, GBS? 

Necey: Yes, yes. I was positive for that. 

Meagan: So they probably wanted to do antibiotics. 

Necey: Yes, so all of that is going on and then the shift changed and the other nurse came in. She was just like, “Okay. I just took these classes. I want to put you in all of these positions.” She and my doula had me, I don’t know what the position was but they had me laying on the bed and I had to arch my back and they had the birthing ball in between my legs. 

Meagan: That’s Walcher’s. Oh, arch your back laying on your side?

Necey: Yes, that’s exactly what it is. 

Meagan: Oh, okay okay. Like a Sims position, like a side-lying position? 

Necey: I was calling it swimming. 

Meagan: Sims, yeah. Exaggerated probably. Or there’s the flying cowgirl where you are really, really arched. 

Necey: I think I may have done that one too. They were on it. I had no clue. I was just doing what they told me to do. All I knew was that I was feeling contractions. I started going back and forth to the bathroom. I ended up throwing up. It was unmedicated for me too. We didn’t find out the gender. It was a surprise for us. We thought that the journey was more important than that at that point. 

At about 10:45ish, the nurse and my doula were like, “I really believe that you are in transition,” because I was making these weird noises. 

Meagan: Isn’t it funny how our body just intuitively makes weird noises but at the same time, we’re like, “Oh wait. That’s a good noise.” 

Necey: My doula said, after it was over, she looked at me and she was like, “I have never in my life heard anything like that.” We all laughed about it at that point, but yeah. For some reason, the resident doctor that was there would not let the nurse check me. I don’t know why, but the nurse kept asking and was like, “I really just think she’s ready.” I don’t know. It was just taking the doctor a really long time, but she finally got there. She comes and she was ready to check me. I was like, “Wait. You have to wait. Here comes a contraction.” The contraction comes and I’m like, “Okay. It’s over. Check me now. Let’s move fast.” She did. I was complete. 

They were like, “Okay. Get ready. We’re going to do a couple of practice pushes and get things going.” They were like, “Whatever position you want.” I ended up on the bed in the weirdest sideways– it was just really weird. They were like, “Okay, if that’s what you want to do.” I’m like, “Okay, I guess.” 

Meagan: That’s what my body is doing, yeah. 

Necey: The room quickly filled up with people. I pushed two times and I ended up yelling out, “It burns,” because it burned. 

Meagan: Uh-huh, the ring of fire. 

Necey: Yes, that’s what they said. They chuckled and they were like, “Yeah, that’s the ring of fire. That’s supposed to happen.” My husband was all, “I see the head.” I’m like, “Oh, it’s happening!” Then I pushed again and I mean, she popped out. We didn’t get it on camera. We videoed the whole thing, but my husband, I guess, got so excited. He snatched the camera from the doula and accidentally cut it off, so we missed her actually coming out. 

Meagan: Darn it!

Necey: I know. I couldn’t be mad though. He was excited. She was born. Hannah Faith, 6 pounds, 5 ounces. She came out. He was screaming, “You did it. God did it, honey.” I’m like, “Yeah, God did it.” Everybody in there was in awe. The doctor– I even asked. I said, “Has anybody in here ever witnessed a vaginal birth after three Cesareans?” and everybody said no. This was amazing. 

And so she was born. I’m happy she was born. I didn’t realize just how much I needed to have a healing birth, this faith journey with God and me, and just the information I learned about giving birth. It only took five, but–

Meagan: But hey, you learned and grew with each one. 

Necey: Yes ma’am. Yeah. So that’s it. My babies. But that’s why her name is Hannah Faith. 

Meagan: That’s so beautiful. 

Necey: Thank you. It was our journey. We didn’t even have a name picked out either. 

Meagan: It just came. Everything fit just perfectly. 

Necey: Yes. 

Meagan: Yes. And do you know what? Something that you did for all of those providers that were there, is you proved to them, and not that you were there to prove anything, but you proved to them and showed them that it’s possible because I guarantee before that, they were probably all a little doubtful and a little skeptical, right? 

But there it goes. It happens. The hardest thing with VBAC after– so from VBAC after two Cesareans, ACOG is like, “Okay. Vaginal birth after two Cesareans is reasonable. We feel like it’s okay. We know that the rupture rate is anywhere between .2-1.5% depending on the study.” But then VBAC after three Cesareans, there’s not a lot out there and it’s because we’re not doing them and providers are cutting people off saying, “Nope. You had those two. You’re done.” But then we’ve had story after story after story of VBAC after three Cesareans where they’re beautiful and they pan out. 

Look, you had Pitocin. Do you know what your Pitocin got to?

Necey: 5. 

Meagan: A 5. See? You had Pitocin and you had an IUPC. I want to talk a little bit about that because sometimes, it’s a less-ideal thing because it’s an intervention, right? But sometimes, a provider may agree to allow a VBAC after multiple Cesareans. If you’re feeling stuck and there’s no one in your area and it’s a rule, you could talk to them and say, “Let’s have this. Let’s watch what my contractions are doing. I’m willing to have this intervention for this birth. I never want to say to give in to anything, but it’s just an option because it sometimes brings comfort to those providers and I guarantee that that’s what it did. 

In the beginning, they were like, “No, you can’t have Pit,” and then it was like they totally forgot that they said that. So they were saying one thing and doing another. That happens a lot of the time, so you are just living proof, right? VBAC after three Cesareans with an induction. I mean, yes you went into spontaneous labor. Your membranes ruptured spontaneously, but then labor didn’t start. It probably would have in time, but they jump-started it. They jump-started it with Pit, so it’s possible. It is possible. 

There are not enough studies out there because it’s not happening. 

Necey: It’s not. That’s actually a goal of mine to just advocate and give a voice to the problem. Maybe the issue is the fact that we are being denied and the proper research isn’t given because during my research, YouTube, The VBAC Link Community, and others, I saw multiple women having vaginal births after two, three, and I even saw four. If we could get across the board and get a good average and a good study was done, then maybe we can move forward. 

Meagan: Right, it’s just getting the person and getting the connections to start back. It’s going to start with people just like us, just regular old humans. It’s going to start with us facilitating this. We have our Dr. Natalie Elphinstone, I think is how she says it, she is doing maternal assisted Cesareans which is something also very foreign and not heard of. Everyone is like, “No, that’s not possible,” and here it is and it’s happening. As each of us starts implementing things, maybe it takes writing these providers like you did. It is unfortunate that they called just to laugh at you and say, “Yeah, right.” Maybe write back and say, “I just wanted to let you know that this happened.” 

Necey: That’s what my doula said to do. I haven’t done it yet. I actually had forgotten and I think I should too. 

Meagan: Yes. It’s just that every little thing. I wanted to write a note to my doctor too because he was like, “Good luck. No one’s going to want you out there.” I remember yelling. I’m holding my baby and should be not thinking about my doctor, but that’s exactly where my mind went. I was like, “Screw you. Look at what I just did. This happened. You told me this wouldn’t happen. You told me I would never get a baby out of my pelvis because it was so small.” 

Yeah. It just goes to show that one, we are capable of amazing things. Our bodies are incredible. God is good and it’s okay. It’s okay. It’s not like you’re shoving his face in it and saying, “Oh, look at this,” but it’s like, “Hey. I want you to know that this happened. I even had Pitocin.” And then he might look at it and scoff and say, “Whatever,” or he might be like, “Hmm. All right. Maybe I shouldn’t doubt.”

Necey: That’s the biggest thing. It is possible. It just goes to show that we are all human, even doctors. It’s not to discredit them at all, but nobody knows everything and we should work together as a birthing team and not as an enforcer and just the patient. This should be a collective thing. I think a lot more can get done if it goes that route. 

Having a doula is very important during pregnancy, delivery, and postpartum. My doula came a week later to do the postpartum visit and she asked me how I was feeling. I was fine and she was just like, “Well, how are your feet?” I was like, “Well, they seem like they are a little bit swollen.” She was like, “I think you should check your blood pressure because there is such a thing as postpartum hypertension.” I said, “Okay.” I checked it and my blood pressure was really, really high, almost stroke level high. 

She said, “You need to go to the emergency room now.” I’m just thankful that we had the doula because I probably would have just gone on. I was feeling fine. I ended up going. I had to stay. They had to put me on magnesium and some other things for a couple of days. They sent me home with some medicine, but everything ended up fine after that, but I just want people to be aware that postpartum is care too and there are those signs. 

Meagan: Yes. So often, postpartum is just forgotten about. It’s hard because we are so focused on birth and pregnancy and all of these things, but then we forget about postpartum. If something is not seeming totally right, and it’s normal to have– especially if you’ve had a lot of fluids or medicines or anything like that, it’s normal to be swollen, but if you’re getting more swollen or you weren’t swollen and now all of a sudden you’re swollen, that’s definitely a sign of postpartum hypertension. It’s definitely something to call and discuss. It never hurts to just call. Even if it’s nothing, it never hurts to call and just check out. 

Necey: Yes, yes. 

Meagan: Thank you so much for sharing all of your stories and spending time with us. 

Necey: No problem. Thank you again for having me. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“If you want to have a VBAC, trying is so empowering. If it’s on your heart, you have to go for it because it’s possible.”

We have had her on the pod as a fabulous cohost a few times, but now we get to hear Sarah’s own VBAC story today! After a PROM and stalled long labor, Sarah was told her pelvis was too small. She was labeled as a “failure to progress” and “once a Cesarean, always a Cesarean”.  

Sarah put in the work to change the way she let outside opinions influence her choices. She didn’t let self-doubt control her thoughts and surrounded herself with positivity. Sarah went all in for her VBAC and everything worked out beautifully!

Additional Links

Entering Motherhood Podcast

Sarah’s Instagram

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Hello, this is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have another VBAC story coming for you. Today is actually kind of a fun episode because we have one of our own VBAC doulas. She’s actually been a cohost on a couple of episodes, so this is really fun to have her be on the other side of things instead of being a cohost, now sharing her story. I am so excited, Sarah, for you to be with us today. 

She is a mom of two, a wife, and a mechanical engineer. Since entering into motherhood herself, she has become certified in postpartum nutrition and is a birth and postpartum doula which I think is amazing. Postpartum nutrition is such a big factor. We are going to hopefully have a special guest on here sometime maybe in the spring and she’s going to talk about that and how nutrition can play a huge factor in our recovery and how our incisions, like our C-section scars, heal and how it can impact VBAC. It’s amazing, so I love that you are certified in postpartum nutrition. If you have anything that you would like to share at the end of this, please be my guest and definitely share anything. I am so excited for you to be here today. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: I’m going to read a review and then we are going to jump into your amazing story. 

Sarah: Sounds good. 

Meagan: Perfect. This is a more recent, August 2022 and it’s from Connor Alyse Hoelle. Sorry, I’m really bad at names obviously. I’m probably butchering it. But the review says, “I was planning on waiting until I give birth to leave a review, but I love this podcast so much. I have to do it now. Julie and Meagan have created such a fantastic and empowering resource in The VBAC Link podcast. When I first got pregnant, I wasn’t sure if I wanted to pursue a VBAC and had a lot of self-doubts. Now, I’m just a few weeks from my due date” so I bet she’s had her baby because right now it’s the end of 2022 “ and thanks to this podcast, I’m genuinely so excited to go into labor. I’m been binging every episode and can’t believe how much it has changed my perspective and increased my confidence in my body and my baby. I promise you’ll be hearing an update from me afterward.”

So Alyse, we would love to hear the update and see how things went and see how you’re feeling about your birth. I love that she has been with us and binging. It warms my heart so much. So if you also have a review, please never hesitate to drop us one. You can leave it on Apple Podcasts. I think Google Play maybe, actually, I don’t have Google Play so don’t quote me on that but if you can’t do it on Google Play, you can to go Google. Just search “The VBAC Link” and leave a review there or you can send us a message on Instagram. You know all of the things. I say it every time, but we love your reviews, so please if you wouldn’t mind, leave us one. 

Sarah’s Stories

Meagan: Okay, Sarah. Are you excited? I’m excited. 

Sarah: I am, yeah. I am just super thankful to be here. Like you said, I was able to be a cohost on some other episodes but to be able to share my story is just something that’s near and dear to my heart. I love sharing it, so I’m happy to be here. 

Meagan: Well, thank you. Share away. Anything that you would like listeners to hear. 

Sarah: Well obviously, every VBAC story begins with a Cesarean. Like many other episodes, I am just going to briefly go over what went on with my Cesarean. With my first, she was born in August of 2019 and it was an unplanned Cesarean. I was a first-time mom doing all of the things, quote-on-quote, all of the things I felt like I was supposed to do. I was reading books and talking to other moms. I took a birth course. I had a baby shower. I was looking at all of the cute baby things. I went to all of my prenatal appointments and was checking all of the boxes. 

I was even seeing a chiropractor. I had a doula. I was just doing all of the things that I felt I needed to do to prepare. I was convinced that I was going to have a completely normal, unmedicated birth. I was just going to walk into the hospital, pop out my baby, and just start this new life of a family of three and being a mom. Everything was just going to work out. 

Obviously, I’m here because that did not go according to plan like most of our Cesarean experiences. Actually, very similar to your story, my water broke first. 

Meagan: Mmm, yeah. 

Sarah: I was just shy of 39 weeks and I got up to pee and sure enough, there was a little bit of a pop and trickle down my leg. I was like, “Man, I peed myself.” I was fully convinced that this was just pee and I was super embarrassed. I went to the bathroom and just continued on. Sure enough, every time I went to stand up, I just kept on peeing a little. 

Meagan: Like how much pee do I have?

Sarah: I was like, “This is weird.” I’ve never been pregnant before. I’m so far along, maybe this is normal. There I am. Of course, we all have our phones when we’re on the toilet. I’m sitting there Googling, “What happens when your water breaks?” or “What is it like when your water breaks?” All of these scenarios are running through my head because everything leading up to that point was basically, “Oh, your water’s never going to break. It’s not going to be until later on in your labor.” Everything like that, and sure enough, soon after, I believe it was my mucus plug that came out. 

It’s honestly so hard to try and look back on the experience knowing what I know now and say, “What actually happened?” There’s no way of being able to go back and actually relive it through the lens that you have now, so it’s really crazy to go back and everything, but we were there in the moment and just convinced, “Okay. Water broke. What do we do?” 

Sure enough, it was just like, “Well, I guess we go to the hospital.” 

Meagan: That’s what I was told. It was like, “If your water breaks, you come straight in.” So I was like, “Okay, cool.” So my water broke and what did I do? We got ready and we went in. 

Sarah: Yeah. So here I am. I remember my husband took a picture of me standing outside of the hospital. I was happy like, “Okay, we’re going to go have the baby now. The water broke. This is great.” I was just convinced that this was all cool. Like, “All right. Baby’s coming. My water broke. I must be doing something right.”

I got there. They checked me. I wasn’t even a centimeter dilated. They were just like, “Okay. We’ll see what happens, but you’re staying here.” That, I think, really threw me in for a loop. I figured that I was going to be staying there, but I did not think I wasn’t even a centimeter dilated. I did not. 

Meagan: Right, because you think, “Water breaks, I’m in labor.” 

Sarah: Mhmm. It’s go-time. 

Meagan: We associate water breaking with the movies where it’s like, “Hurry! Get to the hospital! We’re going to have a baby.” But in hindsight, we weren’t really contracting or anything like that. 

Sarah: Not much was going on. Knowing what I know now, sure. I should have stayed home and all of these things, but again, in the moment and in that situation, it’s like, “Okay. Go to the hospital. Show up.” 

So now, here I am at the hospital and contractions did pick up. They put the monitors on me and set me all up. It was just kind of like shock. I was like, “This is happening. I’m having a baby. What’s going on?” So almost through every single contraction, I was shaking and then I was throwing up. From my birth class, it was like, “Oh, if you’re shaking and throwing up, you might be going through transition.”

So again, I’m like, “Oh yay. My body is doing what it’s supposed to. I’m so far along. Let’s do this.” And sure enough, I was only at a 2. They were doing all of the cervical checks. I remember specifically this one nurse said to me– so I was only at 2 centimeters at the time and she was like, “Oh honey if this is how you are at a 2, you’re never going to make it to a 10. You should just get the epidural now.” 

Meagan: Awesome. Thank you so much for the encouragement. 

Sarah: I was just defeated. Over and over in my head, I’m like, “This isn’t how it’s supposed to be. This isn’t what is supposed to happen. What’s going on?” And of course, you can’t stop birth. It’s coming. It’s going. Things are moving and all I wanted to do was just take a moment and pause and stop. My body didn’t want to. It was just all happening. Naturally, I was just so defeated. I had only made it to 4 centimeters a few hours later after she had said this and I was still trying to motivate myself. I had my doula there. She was like, “You can do this. You’re okay.” 

I was shaking and feeling so scared and just not able to calm down. I think I took what the nurse had said and also just how I was feeling and was like, “I’m never going to be able to relax. I’m never going to be able to do what my body needs to do to get this baby out.” I was like, “Let’s do the epidural. Let’s just see where this goes.” 

It let me relax, but ultimately what I was feeling was just all of the pressure. She was posterior and it was just a lot of pressure and everything going on. I think maybe if we did some repositioning, that could have helped, but you never know what’s really going on. With the epidural, I was able to relax and calm down. I wasn’t shaking anymore. 

Meagan: Yeah, which makes it more pleasant. 

Sarah: Right, yeah. I was like, “Okay. I can get through this. This is fine.” I had gotten to 7 centimeters. Now, they were amping up the checks because I had the epidural, so why not?

Meagan: You can’t feel it, so why not? 

Sarah: Right, and then I was approaching that 24-hour mark since my water had broken. I did get to 9 centimeters, but they were just saying, “This is taking too long. You should have progressed further at this point. We should really start to consider Cesarean so that we don’t fall into any emergency situations.”

Meagan: Did they offer any intervention to help you get over that little hump? Was there any talk there like, “Hey, let’s give you 2mL of Pit. Let’s do something.”

Sarah: Yeah, really nothing was discussed in that sense, but I found out afterward when I was pregnant with my second that I did have Pitocin. I was hooked up to antibiotics because I was GBS positive and then after the epidural, I believe they just added on the Pitocin. 

Meagan: But didn’t really talk to you about it. 

Sarah: No because my provider with my second was like, “Oh, so you had PItocin and everything.” I was like, “I did? No.” They were like, “Well, that’s what it says here in your report. I had no idea that they were even administering Pitocin. Maybe that’s what helped me progress further, but ultimately, it was just not moving as fast as they would like. 

Meagan: Yeah. Ultimately, it was that lovely failure to wait. Especially because your body went into spontaneous labor, rupture of membranes spontaneously and then it needed its time. There were some interventions which sometimes, not always, but sometimes can slow the body down because the body is like, “Whoa, hold on,” and then it catches back up, but maybe it sounds like they didn’t give you that time to catch it back up. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. It was just one thing after another. After the word “Cesarean” was thrown into the picture, I was just like, ”Oh my goodness. It hasn’t even been 24 hours and I have gone from wanting a completely unmedicated birth to now thinking a Cesarean is in the picture.” 

I just sat. I laid there in the bed just honestly praying and hoping and saying, “Whatever my body needs to do to get this baby out, allow it to happen.” They came back in and checked me. I still wasn’t dilated, so they just prepped the OR and I ended up with a Cesarean for my first birth. It was just like we said, I was classified as a “failure to progress”. They were convinced that maybe the baby was too large. My pelvis was too small. All of these things were being documented in my report. “This woman had this happen.”

In their mind, they were thinking, “She’s never going to have a vaginal birth.” This is just a classic, “Oh, she’s going to always have Cesareans if she wants any more kids.” I think that was the picture that they drew up in my file and what was laid out for me with that provider. 

So going into my 6-week postpartum appointment, I was already like, “Okay. I have to have a vaginal birth. I want more kids. What does this mean?” They basically said, “Oh, well because of your situation, you could try again, but it’s probably going to result in the same situation.” They were already telling me that I should just go for a repeat Cesarean if I were to ever have kids again. 

Obviously, that did not happen, but I had to really put in a lot of work for myself and my education. I found this podcast. I started my own. It was just all of this rush of, “I need to figure out how I can get this to happen because I’m not getting that support from my provider of believing that I can do this. I know it’s not the story of “once a Cesarean, always a Cesarean” anymore. People are doing this. People are having very successful VBACs. 

It’s one of those things where if you choose to have a repeat Cesarean, that’s your thing, but if you want to have a VBAC, I feel like trying is something that is so empowering. If it’s on your heart, you have to go for it because it’s possible. 

Meagan: It is possible and what’s so hard for me to hear is what you just said. Before even getting pregnant or before even getting there, we have these providers placing doubt and fear in our minds. When I say doubt, it’s doubting our body can do it, but also, they pretty much say, “Well, sure. You can try but it’s going to end up the same way, so why waste your time? Just go in and have a baby.” 

So we’re being placed with all of these seeds. They’re being placed before we even fall pregnant again, so then we are doubting ourselves. I’m just going to say it how it is. It bugs the living crap out of me. It bugs me so much that we have people placing doubt in our ability to have a baby when they don’t know. 

Sarah: Right. I could have easily been like, “Oh okay. From now on, I’m going to always have Cesareans.” I could have gotten pregnant with my second and scheduled a full-on Cesarean and that would be the path that it went, but I had that successful VBAC. I had a baby come out of my vagina. It was possible. It’s just crazy that I think we need to share these stories. We need to show that it’s possible to send some shock to the providers and make them see, “Okay. We can rethink this situation.” It is something that’s going on. Obviously, women are doing this.  

It’s really crazy. That provider too was like, “Oh, I just delivered a baby from a mom that had her 10th Cesarean. You can have as many as you’d like.” 

Meagan: Kind of funny, coincidentally I should say that you said that. We just had someone commenting. I did a reel on breech and she said that she had 10 Cesareans. 10. That is a lot of Cesareans. It is. She just said, “I wish I knew what I know now.” The same thing. That’s the hardest part. We can’t shame ourselves for not knowing then what we know now because that is how this works. We grow. We learn. We experience things and that is what morphs us into the passionate people or passionate person that wants to have a VBAC, right? And again, it’s no shame to those that don’t want to. That’s okay too. It’s just a matter of knowing, “Hey guys, really though. It’s really possible. It really is, and don’t doubt your body for a minute,” because I know people out there do, but you don’t need to. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. It’s so much easier said than done. It’s like, “Okay. Don’t doubt my body.” That’s what I mean. I think for some of us, it is easy to not doubt ourselves. It’s easy to have that confidence. I really needed to work on my confidence. I really needed to work on trusting myself. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Sarah: It’s just those quote-on-quote “simple things” that for some of us really take time and a lot of rethinking what we have known about ourselves. 

Meagan: Mental capacity for sure. 

Sarah: Yeah, and also, the language that we’re using and the way that we speak to ourselves and then also the way that people are speaking to us like that nurse that was commenting on me only being 2 centimeters and my provider saying, “You should just go ahead.” I had to learn how to take that information and refilter it to just be like, “Oh. That’s their opinion. That’s not truth.” 

Meagan: Love it. 

Sarah: That was so much of my VBAC journey and really preparing for stuff. I also was not only like, “How can I have a baby?” because that was the message that I was aiming for from my first, it was, “How can I have a vaginal delivery? How can I have this VBAC?” I took a HypnoBirthing class which covered all of those techniques. It was pregnancy and birth. I even used it in postpartum and was constantly reiterating these tracks that they had of, “You’re doing great. It’s perfect. Believe in your body. Trust in your body.” 

I needed to put myself into that hypnotic state in order to reframe my mindset to be able to successfully have this. I was just fully embodying everything in that sense. They also say that the color orange is also a really great color for having more activity and oxygen to the brain and really being more clear. I believe it also enhances confidence and happiness, all of those things that you need when you are birthing your baby.

Meagan: Very positive. 

Sarah: Yeah, so I bought this big, fuzzy blanket that was bright orange. I had an orange water bottle and I had all of these little battery-operated tea light candles that were orange. I was like, “I am just covering myself in orange.” I am just all positive thoughts because I needed to have that because I knew, “Okay, if I come across a nurse again and if I come across friends or family–”. People were like, “Oh, what? You’re going to be in the hospital though right?” It was like all of their fears were—

Meagan: Projecting? 

Sarah: Right. Also, after my Cesarean, it was so much like, “Oh, I’m so sorry that that happened to you.” All of these other people’s perspectives bombarded me with second-guessing my decisions and wondering what I just went through. I was having so much doubt because I was not confident in any of my decisions anymore. I was like, “What am I doing?” Now, I feel like I’ve gotten to a point of that true confidence. Obviously, there’s always going to be something else that comes up. Now, I’m dealing with a toddler and a baby and all of these new things, but being able to throw yourself in that position knowing that there are going to be things that come up that are unpredictable and you’re just going to have to renavigate through that. 

Having the experience of knowing, “I can rethink this situation. I can put myself in something that I’ve never been exposed to before and make it out.” That’s why I took The VBAC Link doula certification. I was already doing some doula work and things like that. I was like, “You know what? I really feel like I need to educate myself as much as I can and become certified that is specifically in something that’s going to prepare me not only for my birth but also to be able to help other people that are going through these same scenarios.”

Meagan: Right. That’s why I became a doula. 

Sarah: Right.

Meagan: I was so inspired. I’m like, “No, I don’t want anyone to feel the way I felt.” I can’t take that completely away. I can’t take someone’s feelings away, but I want them to hopefully feel supported, educated, backed, and overall just loved because I lacked that. I lacked that with my second. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. I think it’s just dropping into different communities and finding podcasts like this that are going to be able to be amazing resources to give you that, “Oh, hey. Somebody’s doing what I want to do” or “Somebody’s already accomplished something that I see as a potential for me.” I think that we need to see those examples. We need to have these stories be told because it really helps us see that it’s possible. Sometimes, that’s literally all you need when you’re going through this journey. 

I felt like I was doing all of the things now again with a different perspective and not only preparing physically but mentally because I knew that was just as powerful and as important as all of those external, surface-level things that you are shown when you’re just preparing for birth in general. Even just staying hydrated and I got certified in postpartum nutrition because I was like, “Something is going on here. There is some sort of disconnect. My body is different. My body has changed.” What I believed about nutrition before is not the same as how I’m experiencing the postpartum period. 

Honestly, just all of that coming together has been super helpful, so I’m excited to listen to that episode that you’re going to have. 

Meagan: Yes, me too. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah because it’s so much information there that is really being uncovered. It’s a lot of new research. Women’s health in general, I think, is being real.y pushed and needed. That also, I feel like, just helped me. Watching what I was consuming and what I was putting in my body. Maybe it’s old wives’ tales but the dates and the red raspberry leaf tea. I was all about it. Even just different smells and the environment that you’re in played such a part in creating that good, calming atmosphere and just reiterated my confidence and held me centered in my birth. 

I originally when back to the same provider that was telling me, “Oh, go ahead. Have so many Cesareans.” My kids were about two and a half years apart. I went in. “Hey, I’m pregnant again. I’m ready for this VBAC. Let’s go.” They just kept on saying, “Okay, We’ll see how it goes.” My billing came and basically, the bill was for a Cesarean. I was like, “I don’t understand. I’m going to have a vaginal birth. Why are we billing me for a Cesarean?” They were like, “Oh well, you know, just in case.” I was like, “Just in case I have a vaginal birth. Why is that not a route that we’re leaning toward?” 

It was right after my anatomy scan at 20 weeks. I switched over to midwives that are in the area and they have, I think, an overall 80% success rate here in Greenville, South Carolina. I believe that if you’re going for a VBAC, they are one of the better providers in the area. They definitely want vaginal births. They want that to be the outcome. Once I switched to them, it was not even a thing. They were just, “Oh yeah. VBAC. VBAC.”

Meagan: Let’s do it. 

Sarah: Yeah, like, “Okay.”

Meagan: We’re just going to have a baby.

Sarah: Right. I felt so much better. It wasn’t until the very end that I was listed as that, “Oh, too big of a baby,” and things like that, they did suggest doing the scan to see the size. I denied it. I said, “No, thank you.” 

Meagan: How big was your baby?

Sarah: My first was 7 lbs, 14 ounces. 

Meagan: What?! That is not a big baby. 

Sarah: No. Mind you, I’m only 5’0”. 

Meagan: But still. I’ve seen a 5’2” give birth to an 11-pound baby. 

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. By no means were my babies big. My second was actually 8 lbs, 4 ounces so he was bigger than my first and he was my VBAC. It’s really just crazy. That’s one thing as a doula, it’s hard for me to hear people be like, “Oh, well my provider thinks that my baby is going to be big.” I’m like, “Okay, but maybe no?”

Meagan: Right? Exactly. Like, “Okay, but we could look at it this way too.” I had an interview with someone the other day and she was like, “Well, how do I tell if my pelvis is going to be adequate?” I was like, “Your pelvis is perfect.” She was like, “What?” I was like, “No, really though. Really.” I started talking to her about it and she was like, “Oh.” 

It’s hard. So you got the diagnosis of “big baby, small pelvis,” but then you look at the baby and you’re like, “But the baby wasn’t big.” So they did the scan…

Sarah: I did not do the scan. 

Meagan: Oh, you didn’t do the scan. That’s right. You declined it. You declined it. 

Sarah: I declined it because I said, “Well, what is that going to tell me?” If they said, “Big baby,” then I was going to have that in my head. I was like, “Do I need to get it?” And that’s what I really enjoyed about them because they were like, “No. It’s up to you. You can make that decision.” I was like, “Okay. I don’t want it.” Also, the same with the checks toward the end. I was like, “Nope. I don’t want any cervical checks. I’ll just wait until baby comes and we’ll see if I want checks then.” But they were super considerate of all of those things and never made anything along those lines a requirement. If they would have said, “Oh no, we need to have a scan,” that could have turned into some other things. 

It went, I feel like, as well as it could have. By the time this comes out, he will be over a year old, but right now, he is almost a year old and I am still just absolutely amazed at myself and what was able to happen. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Sarah: The birth itself was crazy. I started to have pressure waves, contractions, whichever you want to call them, really early in the morning, and then probably for about an hour, I just let it play out. I didn’t wake up my husband. It was maybe only 3:30-4:00 in the morning so he was still sleeping. We were still hanging out and then it just continued though. I was like, “This is pretty intense already.” I was like, “I think maybe baby is coming. Let’s see what’s going on.”

I had a doula again the second time. We were messaging her and she was like, “Okay, yeah. Perfectly normal. They’re probably just going to teeter out and span out. We’ll see where you are in a couple of hours or so.” I mean, they did not slow down. They were super consistent and kept on coming. I’m like, “All right. Maybe if I get in the shower, I’ll be able to relax a little bit. I’ll be able to get through these.” I feel like the shower was one of the worst ideas because I couldn’t even dry my hair off afterward. I was just like, “Just get clothes on me.” I did not want to do anything after getting in the shower. I was constantly using counterpressure which I feel is the best thing for me and I definitely recommend at least trying it. 

We did all of the hip squeezes. Every time I started to feel the need for one, I would just yell, “Squeeze!” My husband would run over and squeeze my hips. Again, it was just ramping up and getting super intense. I had piles of pillows in my bedroom and wrapping around them. I was on the edge of our little ottoman in our bedroom and then went to the bathroom and just was moving around as much as I could on all fours, side-lying, and things like that. At some point, I was laying on my side, then my water had broken well into it all. I was just like, “Oh my goodness. We need to get to the hospital now. 

Once that happened, I felt him drop. I was panicking because I mean, I specifically wanted to have a hospital birth because I just felt like that’s where I needed to be to feel at my comfort level, so once that happened and I felt him, I was like, “We need to get to the hospital! I am not having this baby here.” My friend that was watching our oldest had not gotten there yet and our doula was still like– I think my husband was like, “Oh, we don’t want to get to the hospital too early.” He was downplaying everything because of the previous scenario. 

Now I say, “New baby, new birth.” This is different. We can’t take what has happened from our past births into this new one because it’s going to be a whole different situation. 

Meagan: Totally, yep. 

Sarah: Finally, my friend came over and she was watching my daughter and was like, “Okay, yeah. I’ve got her. I’m covered. We’ll take her to our house,” and things like that. We got in the car and I just remember grabbing and holding on to the holy cow bar and having a foot up on the side and just gripping everything around me going through all of the motions. My eyes were closed and I was just like, “Let’s just get to the hospital.” Somehow, we just kept on gaining more time. I think my husband made a wrong turn and I was like, “Just get me there. Get me there.” I think he was panicking. I’m not sure what happened. 

We finally got there and my doula was standing right at the door of the hospital. There was actually a wheelchair right out there that I thought she had gotten for me. I just jumped right into the wheelchair and she was like, “Oh, okay.” “Wheel me up. We’re having this baby.” I was so ready to go. I was so amped up and so pumped. I later found out that the wheelchair had literally just been left there by somebody that had gotten picked up minutes before, but she was like, “Okay. We’re going in.” I’m gripping my belly, breathing, and everything. I just remember the person at the front that was checking everybody in was like, “Oh no. We don’t do that here. Go straight up.” 

Sure enough, we got in and I was already at 8-9 centimeters. They were like, “Okay. You’re having a baby. Let’s get you in there.” I really wanted a water birth or at least to be able to be in the tub, so they started to fill up the water when I was in there, but then after they hooked up the monitors and everything, they said, “We don’t really like what’s going on with his heart rate and we’re just going to keep you out.” I was honestly just like, “Okay. It’s not the plan, but let’s just get the baby out.” They checked me again and they were like, “You’re ready to go. You’re ready to push.” The only thing I had to do was get hooked up to antibiotics because I was GBS positive again which was something that I definitely tried to prevent, but I think that’s just one thing with my body. I am just forever GBS-positive. 

Meagan: Sometimes it happens and we don’t know why. You might be surprised if you have another baby. Sometimes it doesn’t happen. 

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. They did ask me as I was getting wheeled over to the delivery room, “Do you want the epidural?” I was like, “Heck no. I made it this far.” 

Meagan: You’re like, “No. I just want to have a baby now.”

Sarah: Yeah. It was probably a little over an hour from when I got wheeled in until when he came out. I pushed for maybe about 20 minutes and just that feeling of him on my chest. It’s literally goosebumps. I felt so proud of myself and accomplished and empowered. I was like, “Oh my goodness,” because I didn’t get my daughter to be on my chest with my Cesarean. They had said that that could have been an option and it was not. It was not something that I got to do, so just literally, I didn’t care what he was covered in. I didn’t care what I was covered in. I was like, “Give me the baby.” 

I mean, honestly, it was such a cool feeling to have that. 

Meagan: Absolutely. It’s euphoric. You’re in a whole other world. It’s the weirdest thing because you’re there and everyone’s there around you, but you’re in a completely different space. Yeah. It’s a really cool feeling. 

Sarah: It is. And like I said, he was bigger than my first and when they weighed him and everything, I was like, “See? I can have bigger babies. I can do it.” 

Meagan: You pushed for 20 minutes. I was like, you pushed 20 minutes with your small pelvis and big baby. 

Sarah: Yep, yep. I felt on top of the world. I was like, “I can deliver a baby vaginally. I did it.” I took the iconic hand-up-in-the-air photo and was just there snuggling him so much, but yeah. That’s my birth story.  

Meagan: Oh my gosh. So amazing, so amazing. I’m so happy for you. I’m so happy that all of the doubt that was placed in the first birth was able to just be washed away at the end where it’s like, “Whoa. Yes. I can do this. I did do this. This is amazing. My body is amazing. My baby is amazing.” Hearing your first story, it sounds to me like– I mean, I wasn’t there. I haven’t seen your OP reports. I don’t know. I didn’t see the tracings, but it sounds like still positional probably, or something like that, so yeah. I’m so happy for you. 

Sarah: Thanks. 

Meagan: I’m so happy for you. 

Sarah: Like I said, it’s been almost a year later and I still get so giddy about it. I think it really allowed me to really– I am appreciative of my Cesarean because I feel like if it wasn’t for that, I would not be so called to do this work and such an advocate for it and so wanting to be a part of the birth community as hard as I am. I think we have to take those experiences for what they are and like we were saying earlier, learn from them and really grow with them and be thankful for it and just heal from it and see where you’re still hung up and what needs to be processed. But go into another birth with a completely different perspective and mindset and just what it is. 

Finding a provider and finding a location where you feel safe, finding a support person, a doula, and things like that, connecting with the community, and really having that comfort is great, but I do feel like we are our one and only true advocates. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Sarah: We have to take that action. We have to follow through with what we’re learning and like I said, listening to this and being a part of online communities, in-person communities, and things like that is great, but if you’re not implementing what you’re learning and you’re actually taking those actions, it has to click. It has to be like, you do your homework, you study for the exam, and you pass. It’s just like one of those things where I feel like you have to really embody it and when I hear people say, “Oh, it’s so easy.” I’m like, “It was not.” In the end, overall, it’s like when you’re running a race. You have to train for it. You have to be a runner in order to complete it without stopping or feeling exhausted. It’s a lot and I think that’s one thing that is sometimes overlooked. 

With my first, “I’m just going to walk into the hospital. I’m just going to have this baby.” What needs to be done? I think it’s just those kinds of things. You really have to ask yourself, “Am I honestly doing the things that I need to do? Am I implementing them into my life? Am I drinking my water? Am I clearing my fears? Am I healing from my first birth? Am I asking my provider all of the questions that I have? Am I not embarrassed to find the resources that I need? Am I clearing out all of that negative feedback from other people? Am I doing those things and am I dropping into communities that are supporting me and cheering for me?” 

I think that’s where the magic is. That’s when it clicks in and that’s when you really get to feel confident and empowered and happy with your decisions moving forward. That bleeds into motherhood. I think that bleeds into the whole postpartum period and really just continuing to build that confidence in yourself is my favorite thing that I learned in motherhood. 

Meagan: I couldn’t have said it better. I mean, really. You just nailed it. All of those things are so important. In the end, we have the support. We have the processing. We have all of those things, but in the end, we still have to tune into ourselves and you have to believe in yourself. You have to have that. You can have a huge team of believers and cheerleaders, but you also have to cheer for yourself. 

I love it. Thank you so much, so so much for all of the information. 

Sarah: Yeah, this has been so much fun. Honestly, thank you so much. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“Let’s make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.”

Dr. Natalie Elphinstone is a true trailblazer! When one of her patients asked about the possibility of a maternal-assisted Cesarean, she listened intently, took the idea to heart, and advocated for change by creating a new hospital policy to allow this beautiful procedure. Dr. Elphinstone is creating a whole new experience for Cesarean moms as they get to deliver their babies, hold them first, have uninterrupted skin-to-skin time, and feel like birthing women instead of patients on an operating table. 

Dr. Elphinstone shares how she was able to make this change, how we can implement this procedure in our areas, and even offers some VBAC tips as she is a big VBAC advocate as well! We are SO honored to have her with us today.

Additional Links

Dr. Elphinstone’s Instagram

Dr. Elphinstone’s Introduction Post

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Welcome to The VBAC Link, you guys. This is Meagan, your host, and I am so excited to be here with you today. Today’s guest is an amazing OBGYN in Australia. She has caught over 1500 babies and believes in supporting women and families to make individual choices that feel right for them. You guys, she is making such a big impact in Australia and I am just so excited to pick her brain and hear more of her journey about how she has been changing the norm in Australia. 

Review of the Week 

We have a Review of the Week so of course, I’m going to jump into that before we start with Dr. Natalie. 

Okay, so today’s review is actually pretty short. It’s from Dr. Steven Roushar who is amazing. We actually have him on a podcast probably back in the early one-hundreds. He is a chiropractor and his wife has also had a VBAC. He said, “The VBAC Link is phenomenal. Great podcast content and training for birth workers.” Thank you, Dr. Roushar. We are so happy that you love The VBAC Link. We love you and believe in chiropractic care so much. 

As usual, if you have not had an opportunity to leave The VBAC Link a review, we would love that. I love getting these reviews. It makes me smile and we love reading them on the podcast. So push pause right now, and head over to Apple on iTunes. You can leave us a review. A 5-star review would be awesome along with a written review. You can do it on Google. You can do it on Facebook or you can email us. Wherever it may be, we would love your reviews. 

Dr. Natalie Elphinstone

Meagan: Okay, Dr. Elphinstone, we are so excited to have you. We are so grateful for you. I know your time is precious in OB-land. You are obviously seeing a ton of births. So grateful to have you. Again, thank you so much for being here. In the birth world, we get these comments sometimes, “You’re The VBAC Link, I have a girl crush on you.” I am girl-crushing on Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. She is the freaking coolest. You are so cool. I am so honored to have you on the show today and I’m so honored for her to share with you her knowledge because you guys, you are going to fall in love with her too. 

If you don’t follow her Instagram, right now, press pause and go check her Instagram. Do you have a Facebook too? I think we just follow you on Instagram. 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah, sadly I just do the Instagram thing. 

Meagan: That is okay. You are @drnatalieelphinstone, right? 

Dr. Natalie: Yep, all one word. One really long word. 

Meagan: One really long word, but you guys, it’s amazing. I want to do a little bit of a background. This is how I found her. I actually found her off a video. You may have seen these going around of a maternal-assisted Cesarean delivery. It brought me chills. It made me cry. I was just like, “Oh my gosh. I want to do this. I want to have this option here in the U.S.” She is in Australia too, so not here in the U.S. 

I don’t even know. Your page just started blowing up and this video started going viral. I shared it and I think I wrote you. I think I just wrote you and was like, “Wow, this is amazing,” or something. Crazy enough, we had some crazy emails coming through like, “That’s fake. That’s not real. It’s a simulation.” I was like, “What? No.” 

Anyway, so I wrote Dr. Elphinstone and I just said, “Hey, I would love to have you on the podcast.” She is so gracious and said yes, so we are going to dive right in. I always say “dive right in” but we are diving right in to learn more about what she does and how she is truly changing the birth world in Australia. Okay. 

Dr. Natalie: Thank you, thank you, thank you so much for even thinking of having me come and talk on a podcast that of course, tends to be concentrating on VBACs, yet yes. I am getting known for this maternal or parent-assisted Cesarean. And so to be honest, it took me a little bit by surprise that you thought maybe I would be somebody to talk to. I mean, the whole thing took me by surprise. 

When I started off just sharing some of the videos of my maternal-assisted Cesareans, it was not with any kind of intention of trying to be this game changer. I actually just wanted to show something that we did that was really, really awesome and maybe with it, that idea of, “Well, if we can do it here, then maybe it can inspire other people to open up their mind to this possibility as well.” And then, it kind of just blew up as you said. It started getting reshared. I started getting contacted by people all around the world asking for my help and my advice on how they could possibly do it in their country. 

I’m super, super honored to be able to share my journey and my knowledge. To date now, I can say that– I was just contacted today by another country over the weekend who contacted me to say, “Thank you very much for the information that you shared. It was able to allow me this opportunity to do a maternal-assisted Cesarean for possibly the first time in my country.”  This was Ireland, so I’m pleased to say that Ireland is the sixth country that I’m aware of that I’ve been able to help impact at least one individual person. This is just mind-blowing to me and I feel so privileged to be able to not do anything special. I don’t think I’m doing anything special. I’m just open to changing my practice and then sharing it so that it is seen that it is something that is possible. 

When you then get people that say, “That’s fake,” I mean, oh. That actually just makes me really sad. It makes me really sad that this idea of what I’m showing, a maternal-assisted Cesarean, is so far removed from what they believe to be reality and what they know in their world that they think it must be fake. That’s actually sad to me. 

Meagan: I’m with you. Me too. It does. It breaks my heart that this world has come to the point where we are so blinded, we are so closed-minded, and just looking down this tunnel that we can’t see the possibilities outside of the norm. 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah, yeah. That’s what it is for me. This is just me thinking with an open mind, “Can we do something different?” If the answer is yes, then why don’t we? Why can’t we and how do we make that happen? So that’s how I started. 

Meagan: Right, I know. That’s what I love. It’s going to take someone to get it started for it to happen. Here you are. You’re doing it. You are doing it and you are changing it. It’s hopefully just going to trickle on down and spread throughout the world to see that Cesarean birth can be different. It can be different. Each video, they are all different. Sometimes, I have seen that you’ve got videographers or someone in the OR even on the other side. You’ve got two different views of baby coming out. You have mom reaching down and pulling baby out, and then we have the other side where the amniotic fluid is pouring out. It’s just so dang cool. It’s so dang cool. I love it. 

For my second Cesarean, I watched it in a mirror. I wasn’t able to be a part of my birth in the way that you are creating people to be a part of their birth, but I saw it in the mirror and it was really cool and really special. That right there, that and the skin-to-skin that I was able to get made the difference and created the healing for an undesired Cesarean birth that I had. It truly created that healing aspect. I’m just going to shoot it out there. How? You’re seeing it in your head and you’re like, “We’re going to do this.” What kind of flack or backlash did you get or pushback did you get in your space there in Australia? What did you get there and how did you personally push back? 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah. It’s a really good question because I think everybody who has wanted to pursue this journey comes back and says, “But I’m getting met with these challenges and I’m getting met with these accusations. I’m just getting shut down.” I think that probably everybody will meet some of those challenges. And yes, I’ve met those challenges too. 

My journey of how this happened to me, and I always tell this story because I think it’s a really important part of this story. This wasn’t on my radar. To be honest, I didn’t think of it myself. I had a single patient come to me who I was looking after for her antenatal course. It was her first baby. She had decided for various reasons that a Cesarean birth was the way that she was going to go. She came to me and said, “I’ve seen on somebody else’s social media this idea of a dad-assisted Cesarean, a partner-assisted Cesarean.” She said, “Can we do that?” 

I said, “Well, I’ve never seen that happen before in real life. It’s definitely never been done at this hospital. I don’t know that it’s ever been done anywhere in my area before,” and so one easy spot to stop there would be for me to say, “So no, we can’t do that,” and that would have been a really easy answer. But instead, I went, “Well, maybe. Why not? Why can’t we do that? That does seem pretty cool. That does seem like it might be a really valuable thing if that’s something that you want to do. So how do we make that happen?” 

So my point is, number one, this whole thing started with one person, one patient herself coming to me saying, “Can we do this?” It can start really, really small. I was in a privileged position where I had the opportunity to go basically straight to the top of the hospital. So I’m talking about working in a private hospital in Australia for this scenario, so I literally just went to the CEO of the hospital. I asked her, I said, “I don’t know how to make a new procedure happen. Tell me what I need to do to be able to make this happen.” I mean, number one I asked her, “Are you on board? Can I make this happen?”

To be fair, I was expecting to be shut down at that point, but my gosh, she said yes. She said, “That sounds like, yeah. Why not?” A very quick answer would be that when it always comes down to new procedures, is there a value in it? Is there an importance? Does it achieve something so to speak? And then the second thing, is it dangerous or are there risks or are there concerns about that? If you can tick off those two boxes, then yeah. We can do a new procedure. But there are some hoops to jump through. She told me what those hoops to jump through were. I had to write a policy. Hospitals always want to know this very streamlined checklist of how you do this new procedure. 

And then I had to get that policy approved by the various levels of boards if you like at the hospital, so I had to present this to a couple of different meetings. That’s where things got really interesting. I can write a policy. I can write a protocol. That’s just me sitting at the desk and talking stuff out, but then presenting this idea to boards of people to get a general consensus that this seems like a good thing to do, I guess I was really naive going into that. I guess I believed that this was a really important thing to do, so I probably expected that everybody else would as well, but clearly not. 

That was definitely my naivety at play there. I then got met with challenges from the people hearing it. Everything they just laughed off like, “That sounds like the most ridiculous thing in the world.” I guess when you are talking to surgeons for example, surgeons, yes. We operate. People are asleep and we cut them open and we do a procedure. There are a lot of these rules around that to keep it sterile and to keep it clean and to keep it safe. To be fair, here I am suggesting that this woman who is awake and having her operation is going to literally reach down into her own open wound and pull out her baby. So yeah, okay. I get why it might sound ridiculous if you don’t have the understanding of the fact that this is birth rather than it being an operation. I think that’s a really important part to remember. 

I hope that none of us ever forget when we are doing any kind of Cesarean or any kind of instrumental birth or whatever that this is not just a procedure that we are performing on somebody. This is their birth. This is the thing that they are going to remember forever. So even if this is the 5th Cesearean I’ve done this morning and I’m getting a bit hungry or I’m a bit bored or whatever, oh my gosh. That’s not the point. The point is to remember that this is the most astounding thing that has ever happened in this woman’s life and in this family’s life so let’s make it really, really special. Anyway, I digress. I digress. 

Meagan: Absolutely. You digress in a good direction though because it’s so true. I’m sure. I’m not a provider. I don’t know. I’m sure it just gets repetitive, right? 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah, it can. 

Meagan: Walk in. Catch a baby. Walk in. Have a Cesarean. But if you can, if you can walk in. If you are a birth worker and you are listening, and that goes for all birth workers, walk in and truly hold space for that person and be there for that person because it is something that they are going to remember forever. You probably aren’t going to remember two months down the road, but they will. 

Dr. Natalie: I think that’s something that hopefully every provider continues to keep in the forefront of their mind. I think I’ve certainly had the times where let’s be honest, sometimes I haven’t honored the birth experience, or perhaps it’s a Cesarean and often we then think that the woman’s really distracted now. The baby’s out. She’s focusing on the baby and we’re just getting on with the rest of the operation and closing her up, and often, let’s be fair, I am just having a conversation with my colleagues around me. I’ve had that not come back to bite me because I don’t think I’ve ever said anything inappropriate in that situation, but the women and the partners have come back and said, “Oh yeah. We heard you chatting about other things.” 

Actually, a lot of the time when they are telling me that, they are telling me that they were kind of reassured by that because they knew that if I was just perhaps having this general chitchat then clearly I wasn’t worried about anything in their operation. 

Meagan: Yeah, I can see that. It is interesting though because, with my first baby, that’s what I remember. I don’t remember my baby’s cry. I don’t remember seeing my baby. I remember the doctor and the assistant on the other side of the curtain talking about how terrible the storm was outside and how one just got back from Hawaii and was so depressed. That’s what I remember about my birth. 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah, yeah. I don’t quite know what the answer to that is because it is going to be this balance between definitely wanting to honor that birth space, but yes at the same time, we are humans too and it is our job. We love our job, but sometimes yes. Part of that job is bonding with our colleagues as well. 

Meagan: Talking on the job. Yeah, talking on the job. That’s what you do. 

Dr. Natalie: That’s always a wake-up call for us to always be really mindful of even just what that general chitchat might be that, okay yeah. Let’s talk about our holidays. That’s a good memory, but maybe let’s not complain about something else like another colleague down the road. Let’s keep that somewhere else. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Dr. Natalie: Oh gosh. So yeah, I did definitely meet with some criticisms as I said. Just that general not understanding of the importance of birth and this incredulity of the ridiculousness of the things that I was asking for. And then there was the stuff you would expect like the actual medical concerns that the other people might have like, is this a danger to the woman? Does it increase her infection rate? Is it a danger to the baby? The baby might get too cold and the pediatricians can’t get access to the baby quickly. There were those sorts of concerns actually coming from a genuine place of still wanting to do the absolute very best for our families but of course, there is an answer to all of those questions. 

And then there were the people who I’m not sure what their motivation is. Maybe it was a threat to them. Perhaps other providers have always done things a certain way, so anytime you’re wanting to change a procedure, number one you’ve got to realize why it’s important to change the procedure. So with a Cesarean for example, we’ve been doing a fairly stock-standard way of doing this Cesarean for who knows how long. Certainly, for as long as I’ve been training, it’s always been done a certain way and possibly I imagine, it’s been done pretty much in the same way for many decades, so why would I change something that I can’t see a problem with? 

In most providers’ eyes, there’s no problem with this. There’s no danger in this. There’s nothing going wrong apart from all of the things we know certainly can be a danger and can go wrong, but we accept those risks. But why would I change and certainly why would I change into a direction that might become more complicated, especially more complicated for me as the provider having to change the whole way I do things? Because let’s be honest, we’re people. We might not really like change especially if we’ve been doing something the same way for a really long period of time. 

So I definitely also got this pushback from maybe the people who felt challenged by that and who came back to me with even some threats. I don’t even know. It was sort of ridiculous and if you weren’t in a really serious board meeting, I would have laughed at these people who were coming to me claiming wildly with no evidence behind it things like, “You’re going to kill women doing this.” What? What? Where is that coming from? 

And then the other really one that did actually make me laugh out loud, I certainly got one threat if you like or they thought it was a threat. They said, “But once you do it once, that woman is going to tell her friends and she’s going to put it on her Facebook and you’re going to get other people asking for this.” I went, “But that’s the point.” That is why I want to do it. 

Meagan: You want to make this change. That is what we are doing. 

Dr. Natalie: So yeah, I thought that was funny, but that’s definitely not where they were coming from with that. Anyway, that is what happened so they were right. 

Meagan: They were totally right. Here we are. All of us are totally in here loving it and wanting to talk to you about it because you are willing to. Like we were saying earlier, it’s sad to know that so many people are so closed-minded. “Oh, well if you do this, then it’s going to get it.” It’s like, well yeah. We’re not doing this as a secret. I’m not going through all of this to keep it a secret. We want to make this change. We want to make Cesarean birth better. My slogan is “Make Birth After Cesarean Better”, but to be really honest, sometimes our VBACs don’t end up going exactly as planned, or maybe we decide in the end that we want a scheduled Cesarean, so let’s have a healing experience, a beautiful experience and let’s incorporate these moms as you are doing because it’s truly going to make a difference. 

I don’t know how many of these you have done, but I would be so curious to start learning what it does for the postpartum period, where it’s taking us in postpartum, and how we are viewing these births. So many of these people that I talk to, and you can only imagine, have had very traumatic Cesareans, very terrible experiences, ones that they truly have to process and work through before they can even fall pregnant again. It makes me wonder with this even if it is a Cesarean and even if it wasn’t desired, in what ways would it change our view? Have you had a lot of people talking about their experience of how they are viewing this? What are your patients saying?

Dr. Natalie: I would really love to be able to do, if I had time in the world, to do an in-depth study basically of what the feedback was from all of the families that so far have had this procedure, this maternal or paternal or whatever you want to call it assisted Cesarean. Certainly, one thing I know for a fact is that I definitely have never had anybody come back to me after they have done this and complained or actually had any concerns. I have not had anybody ever come back saying, “Oh, yeah. Well, maybe next time I won’t do that” or “I wish I hadn’t done that.” 

Nobody has ever said that. It has definitely always been a really positive experience for them. Some families and mothers are only having their first baby and doing it this way, so perhaps they don’t have anything to compare it to but that doesn’t matter. What they know from this experience has been that it was really empowering for them and that it achieved a lot of the things that they would be imagining from a vaginal birth anyway. 

And then I’ve had all the way up to somebody having her fifth Cesarean and her four previous Cesareans had been with other providers and had not been any kind of maternal-assisted Cesarean. In particular, her fourth Cesarean before she came to me was a really difficult, traumatic experience for her because of things that happened at that time. This was an unplanned pregnancy, so this wasn’t meant to happen in the first place, but happy about it and accepting it for sure. She was acknowledging that certainly she was going to have a fifth Cesarean. 

So she came to me and we performed this maternal-assisted Cesarean. We had spent an extensive period of time talking about what all of the very specific things that had been difficult for her in her previous Cesareans and how we could overcome that and what we could do differently this time around. She has this fifth Cesarean which she then says is so dramatically different from all of the other experiences that she had and so healing for her that she could now say in retrospect she hadn’t even processed perhaps how difficult the other Cesareans had been until she had this experience where she could now see the difference. She’s like, “Now, I can actually rest happy that this was my final baby now. The fifth one, we’re done. We’re taking permanent measures.” But this then was so healing for her that she can rest on the knowledge that this is her lasting impression of what birth is now, that it was this rather than the previous one in particular that had actually been really, really difficult. 

She had the insight to say that even the postpartum bonding period with her baby was so impacted by the difference in her Cesarean experiences that yes, she knew this baby from the very beginning. She got to be the first person to put hands on her baby. She got to have that immediate skin-to-skin with her baby and that uninterrupted bonding time. It often takes the women by surprise, perhaps they haven’t thought about these details but they often will say things like, “Whoa. This baby’s warm and slippery and wet.” I’m like, “Yes, of course, it is warm and slippery and wet. I don’t know what you were imagining otherwise.” But that hadn’t been their experience before because previously, the first way that they had experienced their baby was only after the providers had dried off the baby and wrapped it up in a blanket and maybe now given it to them, so they’ve only got the view of this little face and all they’ve gotten is “I can touch your cheek” kind of deal. 

So yeah, it has taken them by surprise that it turns out when you first lay hands on your baby, it’s warm and wet and slippery. 

Meagan: It’s kind of crazy though. I had the same thought. With my VBAC, I pulled him up from my vagina and pulled him onto my chest and he was. I was like, “Am I going to drop him because he’s so slippery?” Before, I was strapped to the table and didn’t really get that. So it is. It’s such a different feeling and you wouldn’t think about those little details being dramatic, but they are going to leave an impression. 

So how can we as listeners and people who are going for a VBAC, or maybe just a scheduled Cesarean, maybe going for a VBAC which ends in Cesarean, are there any tips you can give, or is there anything that we can start doing, especially if the hospital is not doing what yours is doing, to try and get this going like your patient did? If any providers are out there listening, do you have any tips for anybody?

Dr. Natalie: I think it definitely can be achievable to make a change in the space of your own pregnancy, but perhaps start that early. So perhaps if you knew that a Cesarean was the way that you were going to go, start that conversation early with your care provider to say, “Okay, well if it’s a Cesarean, can we make it look like this?” Perhaps it’s not necessarily going to be to that extent of the maternal-assisted Cesarean because that does take all sorts of hoops to jump through and it will take time. I was incredibly– I don’t know if luck is the right word, but in a privileged position to make those changes in the space of only a few months in my hospital to introduce this new policy and to be able to achieve it for that one woman who had asked for it. 

But I know that for a lot of hospital workers trying to change policy usually takes much, much, much longer than that. But it’s got to start somewhere. So if you as a mother are wanting to make that change, it is possible, but if it’s not going to work in your pregnancy journey, you could still be a voice for future mothers if you start the process at some point. It’s got to start somewhere. The really easy first start is to start talking to your care provider. Just say, “This is what I want it to look like in whichever way it may be a maternal-assisted Cesarean, or let’s lower the curtain down so I can see the baby emerging from my uterus.” Perhaps because I think a lot of care providers are going to take the easy way out and say, “No, you can’t do that because we don’t do that here.”

The next step in that conversation to ask gently is, “Why can’t we do that?” I say gently and I don’t mean that you should be pleading or begging, but confrontation often doesn’t achieve what you want it to achieve, so just have an actual, sensible conversation with your care provider. So if they come back and they say, “No, you can’t do that,” then perhaps you can say, “Why can’t we do that?” to actually find out what the legitimate reasons are if there is a legitimate reason because if the answer is, “Well, we don’t have a policy for that,” then you can ask the next one.

Meagan: How do we create one?

Dr. Natalie: Exactly. How do we go about creating a policy? If the answer is something like, “My belief is that it’s going to increase maternal infection,” then you can come back and say, “Is there evidence for that? Can you show me the evidence for that?” because I actually don’t believe that there is any evidence for that. Whatsoever the answer might be, just keep the conversation rolling so that hopefully at some point, there might be this little click in the care provider’s mind that says, “Oh, well maybe you’re right. Maybe this is a legitimate question to ask and possibly I could maybe even be that change in this woman’s life.” Maybe again, perhaps not. Maybe that care provider is still just not going to be open to change and not willing to make that personal effort that it takes, so if you’re in the position of having different care providers or you have the ability to request a different care provider, then go to the next person and ask the same question. 

Maybe again, this is not perhaps going to achieve it in your pregnancy journey so to speak, but if then I as a care provider have multiple people coming to ask me the same thing, I would think that at some point, there’s going to be a realization where I say, “Huh.”

Meagan: This is desired. This is desired.

Dr. Natalie: Exactly. Because if there is that desire, then maybe it is worthwhile actually making that effort to make a change. If I also believe this because I think it does take this understanding on the care provider’s behalf to have that insight to say, “Actually, this is an important thing to do for our women and their families.” It takes an open mind for that, so maybe you’re not going to get that with the first care provider, but ask for another one and just keep going. 

Meagan: And just keep going. Yeah, because the more that it is asked like you said, the more it’s going to be in our heads as a provider and then maybe a provider one day is going to say, “Okay. Let’s look into this.” 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah. You can always ask to go up that chain of command so to speak as well. If the obstetricians themselves are perhaps not able to change, then you can ask that question of, “Can I get the contact details of who the clinical director would be?” or perhaps what the titles are of the people in the hospital who are in charge of making that change. So just go up the pipeline. You can do that as a consumer. You can directly approach the director or in my case at the private hospital, the CEO. Just write them an email. Don’t knock on their door, but gently ask in an email, “Perhaps is this something that we can work on?” 

And it is happening. All of those countries that I’ve said have come back to me and said, “We were able to achieve this for the first time in our country,” a lot of the time, that started with the patient herself asking her care provider and then hopefully meeting a care provider who is amendable to that challenge and who will take up with that in themselves. They’re going to be more powerful going up that pipeline to make change happen. It’s possible. It is possible. It is happening. 

Meagan: It is. It is happening. Your page has all of the proof. 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah. They’re not fake videos. I don’t have time for that. 

Meagan: Fake videos, I know. Like I said, it just makes me sad that people would even question that they are fake. Okay, we’ve talked about your journey of how this happened and now this is how we as consumers– I love how you said that we are consumers. We are really in a place where we can implement this. We can get things going and that’s simply just by putting the idea in a provider’s mind. 

I love that so much. You recently posted an introduction of yourself and something that stood out to me is in your post, you talked about, “What if we do nothing? What if we change the care and stop intervening and do nothing?” Then you prefaced it with, “I don’t mean literally doing nothing, but I’m meaning continuously supporting, loving, educating, and empowering.” It really resonates with me. I love that so much. I love your words in that post. In fact, we will link it in the show notes so everyone can find it really easily. It’s just beautiful and I love what you’re doing. I really love it so much. I can’t even tell you how grateful I am. Like you said, we are a VBAC podcast. I am doing these Cesarean episodes. Yes. I would like to see the Cesarean rates go down substantially. That is a huge goal of mine in my personal life. I would love to see Cesarean birth percentages going down, but at the same time, I do understand that they are needed. They are desired and there is that to be said. 

One of the questions I was going to ask you before I let you go is a lot of these videos look very calm and very planned. Sometimes Cesareans aren’t calm or planned. Are there restrictions there, pre-restrictions that have to come into play before a maternal-assisted Cesarean delivery could happen? 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah. One thing I always definitely want to say because I’ve had this crisis myself as well going, “Am I getting known as a Cesarean doctor?” I don’t want to. 

Meagan: I can see that. 

Dr. Natalie: I don’t want to be that. I certainly don’t want to become that person who then only does Cesareans and maternal-assisted Cesareans, but if a Cesarean is the right choice for the woman in her situation, then yes. Let’s make it the best possible version of a Cesarean that it can be. That’s the internal catchphrase that I say. Let’s make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be. Whether or not that’s a vaginal birth or whether or not that’s a Cesarean or whether or not that’s anything, a forceps, let’s make it the best possible forceps that it can be. Okay, that’s not on the top of the list of whatever you want to plan for, but if it’s going to be that, then let’s make it the best possible version of that that we can be. 

So yes. In a Cesarean situation, how can we make that calm– I mean not even calm, right? It’s about that connection. It’s about the instant connection of the mother and her baby, so how can we try to achieve that where she can be this integral part of her own birth rather than it being that she is a patient having an operation? It’s about changing that viewpoint. 

I think that there are then so many little elements of that that we can achieve that even if it’s not necessarily straight up to the maternal-assisted part, that there are so many other steps that can be important that we can do without necessarily having her scrubbed and putting gloves on and putting her hands in her belly. Let’s lower the curtain. Let’s do direct skin-to-skin. Let’s do delayed cord clamping. Let’s not take the baby away from the mother. All of those things can still be achieved as well perhaps even and mostly still very achievable in an emergency Cesarean situation. 

We use the word emergency Cesarean a little bit willy-nilly because it’s not often an actual emergency. 

Meagan: Yes. I love that you pointed that out. But sometimes when we use that emergency word, it triggers people and they think that it was a life-saving thing, so I love that you said that. We have a lot of people say, “Oh, we had an emergency C-section.” I’m like, “Oh, what was the reason for your C-section?” “I didn’t dilate past a 3 for a few hours, so we walked down to the OR.” That wasn’t an emergency C-section. 

Dr. Natalie: I think in our hospital, and I know most other hospitals in Australia have a very similar classification system, but we either call it an elective Cesarean meaning that it’s planned and booked well in advance, or if it’s an unplanned Cesarean, it gets called an emergency Cesarean. But we have then six different categories of how we classify how urgent that emergency Cesarean is, but they all then come under the banner of an emergency Cesarean. A category 5 is that it just needs to be done within the next 24 hours. It’s still called an emergency Cesarean, but clearly, if we’re happy to wait 23 and a half hours, it’s clearly not that urgent. But it still gets called an emergency C-section. 

Yeah. There’s a very wide degree of how urgent an emergency Cesarean might be. So yes. At my hospital where I am able to do maternal-assisted Cesareans because I’m not at all of the hospitals that I work at, but at the one where I am able to do it at, at the moment, our policy is written in such a way that it is only for these planned, elective Cesareans. That’s got to do with a whole range of factors. It’s got to do with me being able to prepare the woman and her family ahead of time to know what this is going to look like. We go through all of those nuances of how she is, for example, going to become sterile because it is still an operation, so we do need to actually play by those rules to make sure that it is safe. 

I often get questions or comments on my maternal-assisted Cesarean videos saying, “Oh, isn’t it a shame that she’s got gloves on? If it was truly a bonding experience, she would touch her baby without gloves.” I go, “Yes, absolutely. That would be really, really nice.” 

Of course, it would be preferable to be able to grab her baby with her bare hands, but we have to keep in mind that this is still actually an operation, so from that perspective of we need to keep it safe for her, yes. She needs to have gloves on. I can’t see a way around that at this point in time. 

Once the baby is out of her, once the baby is on her chest, once the baby is not in that sterile field so to speak, then of course, take the gloves off. She can touch her baby straightaway. That’s what you’ll see in those videos is that I often then lower her gown down so that she can put her baby directly onto her skin, onto her chest and then I’d be very happy for her to take her gloves off. They often just don’t in that instant because they are holding their baby and they don’t want to move from that moment. 

Part of the reason why it’s currently only getting performed in an elective Cesarean situation is that pre-preparation where I’ve told her all of these rules of maintaining sterility so that she doesn’t inadvertently break any of those rules. She has to follow the same rules that I as the operating surgeon have to. We go through the same handwashing process. There is a little technique to putting on the gowns and the gloves and whatnot. 

Meagan: Yep. I’ve seen it. 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah, you’ll see it. Hands up in the air. 

Meagan: They get their hands up in the air and everything goes on. The gloves go on. Yeah. 

Dr. Natalie: Exactly. She can’t then touch anything after that point that’s not sterile. It’s all of that pre-preparation and it’s the pre-preparation of what it is going to look like and what it’s going to feel like for her to put her hands on that wet, warm, slippery baby and to be able to lift it out of her. I get that if she starts to lift and she’s like, “I can’t do it. It’s stuck.” You have to be reasonably firm because I try to make hopefully only a small enough hole that you can get the baby out, but it’s not hip to hip so it’s a little bit of a squeeze. But yep, pop it out. 

Meagan: That was a question I wanted to ask you. Since you’ve been doing this, have you seen any special scar situations with a mother assisting meaning any extensions, J’s, or anything like that?

Dr. Natalie: No, I haven’t. I really haven’t. Again, that’s a question that we get. I get the question from people. I think this comes from their previous expectations of what they’re being told perhaps in previous Cesareans that isn’t it going to damage her abdominal muscles if she sits up like that? If she’s reaching and grabbing? She’s lifting her head up. People have told me before that in their previous Cesareans, they’ve been very much guided to not lift their heads up. In fact, I’ve had people tell me from other countries in particular that not only were their arms strapped down to the table but their head was strapped to the table as well. 

Meagan: I’ve heard that as well. 

Dr. Natalie: So they can’t move their head and they have a system where they have to lie down flat for six hours after a Cesarean so that they still can’t lift their head up or sit up for hours after the Cesarean because of this idea of things like a spinal puncture headache. I don’t even know what those rules are because they don’t make any sense to me. But if that’s what people’s experiences have been, then, of course, that’s why they are questioning the validity or the safety when they see then what I’m doing that they themselves might think that this is dangerous. But no, there’s no abdominal muscle trauma in excess of what a Cesarean does anyway. 

No, there’s no risk to women of lifting their heads up off of the table. There’s no risk to women of bending so to speak and lifting their baby up at the same time as a Cesarean. Yes, it can be a little bit more difficult because of course, they are anesthetized, but we are there still. She is not going to drop this baby. I’m still very much within catching range, supporting range and you might see on some of these that yes, I do still give her that helping hand to pop its bottom out, but once she’s got that baby, you can just then watch their faces. 

You watch those videos and sometimes blur out the rest of the stuff that’s going on, and just watch her face. It’s really powerful to watch her have this, first of all, maybe this anxiety that’s building. That would be an obvious response. Here she is lying down for this operation and then we lower those curtains and there’s this wonderment of what this is going to be and then she touches her baby, and then she lifts it up. There’s that moment of pure joy on her face every single time. Often, you’ll see the tears that come with that too. It’s just powerful. That’s what birth should be like every single time. 

Just because it’s now in an operating theater, that doesn’t mean that we can’t achieve all of those same things. 

Meagan: Right, yeah. 

Dr. Natalie: We might as well stop after that, right? 

Meagan: I love that. I love that. One day, I’m thinking, okay. I totally get that. You have to pre-prep and talk about this in a planned situation. I hope that maybe one day the conversation can be had in prenatal appointments where it’s like, “Hey if you don’t have a vaginal birth or if you don’t have a VBAC or are a first-time mom, there are these options. Here, sign this form if you would like to be educated on this, and let’s educate. Assuming it’s all calm and it’s not a true emergent baby out in seconds, but a very calm decision where everyone is making their way to the OR, maybe we can start implementing it there too because I do know for sure it would be so healing in so many ways for all of these moms that maybe wanted a VBAC and didn’t have their VBAC.”

Dr. Natalie: For sure. I think that’s so true. I am definitely like that where I’m constantly pushing the boundaries at my hospital. That’s where I next want to take it because as I said in my policy, it’s written that this can only be performed on elective C-sections and I wrote that policy. That’s a shame. If I could go back, I would take that out. I mean, it’s got to be that way to start off with because we did want to do this in a really controlled way because we were introducing a new technique, but now that we’ve seen it and all of the reasons that we believed we would need all of this extra time to be able to plan for this, now that we’ve done enough of them that we’re all practiced and experienced at them, it literally maybe takes an extra five minutes to the time of the operation just to get it ready.

So there’s no particular reason that I can see that we then couldn’t achieve that same sort of thing for the vast majority of unplanned Cesareans as well. That would be a game changer because obviously, the unplanned Cesarean is in particular where the woman might come out traumatized at the other end if she’s not getting what she was aiming for. 

Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. 

Dr. Natalie: Wouldn’t that be powerful if we could still make it then the best possible version of the emergency Cesarean that we could do?

Meagan: Absolutely. Well, I want to be conscious of your time. I know that you’ve been up all night for multiple nights on call doing the amazing things you do. I would love to leave with– since it is a VBAC podcast, is there anything that you would like to share about VBAC or anything cool that you’ve seen or anything that you’ve been implementing with VBAC or any tips or anything as a provider who is making a change in birth in general? I do want to focus on that. I don’t personally see you as the Cesarean birth provider. 

Dr. Natalie: Great. 

Meagan: That’s one of the reasons why I just think that you are amazing. I do think that is an amazing thing that you have done because you have started something that is really tricky. It’s a really tricky thing and you’ve started it. That’s where we start making changes just to start but I see all of your other posts too. I see all of your beautiful, amazing posts. I mean, I’m pretty sure you just shared a home birth after a Cesarean video. 

Dr. Natalie: The HBAC, right?

Meagan: Yes, the HBAC. A lot of providers even in a hospital setting would be like, “Nope. Big no-no. That is terrible,” and you’re still out there sharing it. You’re still out there educating. Is there anything else you’d like to share for VBAC?

Dr. Natalie: Yeah. I think that’s right. I definitely am still very, very much in support of basically every woman being able to be empowered and informed to make the best possible choices for her in the situation that she’s facing because whilst yes, aiming for a VBAC is a really lofty goal, sometimes that isn’t going to be the best possible choice for her in whatever situation for whatever reason that might be. So yeah, number one is always having enough information being given to you or that you’re finding out yourself that you are equipped to make a decision and probably multiple decisions that feel right for you. 

That’s difficult sometimes, I think, to know where to go for that information, so thank goodness for places like The VBAC Link that can actually give you appropriate medical advice, research, and the studies and the actual, accurate information so that it’s not just fear-based information that’s getting thrown your way. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Dr. Natalie: And then it’s about always advocating for yourself which is unfortunate that it has to become that way, but the hospital system, in particular, is a fear-driven,  litigation, consent place so you’re often not necessarily going to get that unbiased opinion on what your choices are. You probably are going to have to go to external places to get that information, but then you just have to be really careful about where you’re going for that information. Trust your sources. 

Also, my other tip is always going to be about looking at that whole birth mapping thing. So, okay yes. We are going to aim for a VBAC. For example, that might be your choice, but what if X happens? Then what’s going to be my choice in that situation? If Y happens, then where am I going to diverge now and what’s going to be my choice in that situation? We know that a lot of birth trauma comes from a situation that wasn’t prepared for. The woman comes back at the other side and says, “Well, I just didn’t consider that that could have happened to me,” so the unexpected or unplanned thing that happened is perhaps where a lot of birth trauma can come from. 

Having that fine line between considering all possibilities but not needing to dwell on those scary ones. There are fear-based ones, but knowing what if you then need a hospital transfer? What if you need a Cesarean? What are your choices going to be in that situation? So that you can continue to make it the best possible version of that now that you can possibly make it. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. It’s something that a lot of our followers will say when they had their initial Cesarean. “It was traumatic because it wasn’t even in my mind. It wasn’t even a thought that that was a possibility” or “I was so focused on this birth plan, this one route that I wanted to go and then it did diverge and it diverged completely over here and it threw me for a loop and now I’m processing.” I love that just in general for anyone going in to have a baby. Even with a planned Cesarean, we want to have an open mind because birth takes weird turns sometimes. Having an open mind and having all of your ducks in a row and having the education because you may not ever get there, but if it’s there, it’s going to help you if it comes. So I love that. I love that tip. Thank you. 

Dr. Natalie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Okay, well thank you so much for sharing how you have got this implemented and how it started, and how we as people can try to implement it in our lives and in our cities, states, and countries because we have people listening from all over the world. I love hearing that it is slowly creeping out there and having it put in place. Thank you for all that you do, for your hard work, and for your support in all types of birth that you support. I really do. I just appreciate your time so much. 

Dr. Natalie: You are very, very welcome. I am always keen and passionate to of course continue to advocate for change wherever we can. I’ll always give a little shoutout and say if you are a pregnant woman or a provider considering this as a change and you need a place to start, you can very much reach out to me via Instagram. You can send me a DM and I can email you information like the policy and some information that I’ve generated that may be able to help you along in your journey as well. I’m very open to that. 

Meagan: Awesome. Thank you so much. 

Dr. Natalie: You’re welcome. Thanks, guys. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.  

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Ashley joins us today from Australia sharing her three birth stories and how she learned to truly trust herself. Driven out of the hospital due to discrimination and not being able to find support from home birth midwives, Ashley decided to go for a free birth. With a special scar, two previous Cesarean surgeries, a big baby, a high BMI, and a history of gestational diabetes, Ashley accepted all of the risks and was able to reap the beautiful benefits of undisturbed home delivery. 

Ashley shares with us her journey to acceptance when things didn’t go the way she planned, but also how to persevere through to fight for the story she wanted. She now hosts The VBAC Homebirth Stories podcast and is a Homebirth/Freebirth Mindset Coach inspiring other women to have the courage to take back control of their birth stories!

Additional Links

Ashley’s Instagram

The VBAC Homebirth Stories podcast

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Hello, hello. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan Heaton and we have Ashley here with you. Can I just tell you? She is amazing and you’re going to want to listen to this episode 5 million times and then when you’re done listening to it 5 million times, you’re going to want to check out her Instagram and watch her videos 5 million more times because she is amazing and such a wealth of knowledge. We reached out and said, “Hey, we want to share your story on the podcast. We think it’s going to be an amazing episode.” I don’t think. I know it’s going to be an amazing episode. 

Review of the Week

Before we do that, I’m going to get a review per usual and remind you that if you would like to leave a review, we are on Google and Apple Podcasts. You can email us. Shoot us a message on Instagram. We love to add your reviews to the queue and read them on the podcast. 

This specific review is from Ana Neves and it says, “I’ve been preparing for my VBAC ever since my C-section, and listening to the stories in this podcast has not only taught and informed me all about the different options, but also inspired me. I know that when the time comes, I will be prepared and feel the power of the great and courageous people who shared their stories here.” 

Oh, I love that. “The great and courageous people.” Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Thank you so much for sharing your review and like I said, if you have a review to share and you want us to know how you feel about the podcast and all of these great and courageous people, please leave us a review. 

Ashley’s Stories

Meagan: Okay, Ashley. I am so excited that you are here. It’s been interesting from now in recording, we’ve had Australian people on the podcast a lot. It warms my heart and makes me so happy and makes me feel like I probably need to go to Australia now because one, I am obsessed with all of the knowledge you guys have on birth and I actually really like the way that birth is in Australia in a lot of ways. But I am just so honored to have you here with us. 

Ashley: Thank you. I am so excited to be here. That was such a beautiful, warm welcome so thank you very much for having me. 

Meagan: Yes, oh my gosh. I’m serious. I just love listening to you too. I just love your guys’ accents. My Utah accent is pretty lame, but yeah. So let’s turn the time over to you. I am so excited because I feel like I’ve heard little things, but I’m excited to just hear it right now with you. Go ahead. 

Ashley: Okay. So let’s start from the first babe then. Basically, I went into that one expecting that I was going to have a vaginal birth because my mum had vaginal births, and all of the women before me did too. My mum had me in 7 hours. I was the first baby. My sister is two, so mum said, “If you have medication, you’re weak. You’ve just got to suck it up.” So I had this, “If she could do it, I can do it.” I had this, “I’ll have the epidural if I need it” sort of vibe. A lot of my friends had babies before me. They had children when they were 17-18. By the time I had mine, I was 28. I was newly married and I had watched all of my friends. They told me all of their birth stories and things. They had all had vaginal births. 

I thought that Cesarean birth was really for celebrities basically because when I was in high school, it was Posh Spice who was having this C-section and things like that. It was a trendy thing to do. It wasn’t something that normal people did. It was an expensive thing that rich people did. 

Meagan: Like in Brazil. That’s how it’s viewed in Brazil. You are high-class if you have Cesareans. 

Ashley: Yeah. I mean, I went to the GP before I got pregnant and checked on my levels to make sure. I have always had a high BMI, so the doctor said to me, “The only thing I recommend is that you lose some weight because you might struggle to conceive,” so I went in knowing that there may be a hardship there. 

Some of the women in my workplace at the time had multiple miscarriages. My mother-in-law had 7 before my husband, so I went in with that kind of, “We’ll see what happens, but it could take a while.” So I conceived within the first month of trying so that was a shock, but also so exciting. Super exciting. It was a month before my wedding, so I got sick just after my wedding for my honeymoon and all of the fun games and after that, I was just like a sloth dying because I got HG. I got HG and it was just 20 weeks of basically a challenge. 

Meagan: Yeah, miserable. 

Ashley: It was hard. I was so excited to be a mom. I couldn’t wait from the time I conceived to birth the baby and have the baby in my arms. That’s all I wanted. I went to the hospital and there was a bit of a mix-up between when I went to the GP and had the GTT, the test for gestational diabetes. The doctor told me that I didn’t have it. I went to a hospital because that’s what they do. You go to a GP and they just send you to the local public hospital and that’s the one that you are allowed to go to, but they didn’t really discuss any of the other avenues like private, or midwives, or homebirths or anything like that. 

So I went excitedly to my first appointment. I waited for over an hour and I saw some random gyno-obstetrician and they said to me, “You’ve got gestational diabetes so you’ll be seeing us.” I was like, “No I don’t. I don’t have gestational diabetes.” “Yes you do,” she said and I burst out crying. It was this big thing. Basically, the difference was if I had birthed or if I had gone to the hospital in Brisbane which is the next suburb over, I wouldn’t have had gestational diabetes but in the hospital that I went to, they were up with the times with the lower numbers because that was cycling at the moment. It was 2014. 

I had gestational diabetes and that meant that I had so many more appointments. It meant that I was only with obstetricians. It meant that I had to go to nutrition or a dietician. It was just so many appointments. It was out of control. From a very early stage, I was told, “You’re going to be induced and you’re going to be on insulin.” As soon as I was diagnosed, I was told, “You’re going to be on medication.” 

Meagan: No talking about it. 

Ashley: “Yeah, let’s see how this unravels and we’re not going to start you on the pill, we’re just going to go straight to insulin for you,” so it was kind of like they had already decided my fate. I was really excited to have an induction. It meant that I got a date for my baby and I was going to have my baby early. When I spoke to the other ladies in the GD who were getting induced, the lady said to me, “It’s all good. I was induced and I had my baby in 5 hours.” I was like, “Awesome. Awesome.” I don’t know what number baby that was for her because when it comes to induction, I know now that it really matters whether it’s your second or if you’ve had a vaginal birth before, then an induction probably isn’t going to land you with a C-section. 

I ended up getting my date, coming into hospital, and having no discussion. I kept asking, “Can we have a birth discussion?” It was always, “Next week. Next week. Next week.” There was no discussion about what happens at birth or really what to expect or any niceties or anything. It always felt quite cold. It was like the people didn’t even want to be there, the junior obstetricians, it was like they were doing their time so to speak. It just wasn’t a pleasant experience. I was expecting my first baby and I just felt like another number. 

Meagan: Yeah. It wasn’t warm and fuzzy at all. That’s for sure. 

Ashley: No. I just felt like it didn’t feel right. It just felt really not nice. 

Meagan: Yeah, impersonal. 

Ashley: Yeah, exactly. I basically went in for my induction and my husband came in with me. That was a couple of days of having gels and people putting their fingers up and continued monitoring and just very uncomfortable. I found after they had done all of that process that my cervix was right shut up. It wouldn’t open up. They said, “Okay. We are going to try and put the balloon in there.” That was the most excruciating pain. 

Meagan: Especially when you’re not dilated. 

Ashley: It was excruciating and I was in so much pain. The doctor and midwife made out that I was making a big fuss because I was responding that it was painful, so they gave me a lot of gas and I was pretty much tripping out. It was really trippy. 

Meagan: Like nitrous oxide?

Ashley: Yeah. I just felt like if this is how painful it is to put this thing in, how painful is labor going to be? How am I going to handle that if I’ve just been through two days of this? I think that I had a cannula in my hand as well because I couldn’t really go to the bathroom without assistance from my husband. It was really getting uncomfortable. I had something up inside me. 

Meagan: Or poking you or something all of the time. 

Ashley: Yeah, exactly. So another night in the hospital we slept and then they said, “If it doesn’t open and it doesn’t drop out by the morning, then we’ll talk about it.” I wasn’t allowed to eat. I had to fast. 

Meagan: That’s going to serve your body well. 

Ashley: I know. It’s really cool. It’s like they give you so much amazing care in the hospital to set you up for this amazing birth, and I woke up and it was still in there and nothing had changed. I felt really defeated and I felt like my body was broken like there was something wrong with me. Nobody had ever discussed or told me that there is a high failure rate to this or that this procedure can fail or that you may not be a great candidate for this procedure. 

Meagan: Or more time. More time can make you a different candidate statistically and raise your BISHOP score. 

Ashley: Yeah, they obviously did the BISHOP score and they would have seen that I wasn’t a good candidate for this. They would have known that when they did all of these things to me. Now I see that as my body is so amazing that you tried to do all of this stuff to my body and my body was like, “Hell no.” 

Meagan: Nope. I’m keeping this baby in. 

Ashley: Clam shut, yeah. The junior doctor came in and she said, “Look. We recommend that you come in tomorrow for more monitoring. Go home and come back on Monday and we’ll start the process again.” I was like, “What do you mean you’re going to start the process again? This was really torturous.” I said, “What’s the difference between a day or two? My body’s not going to respond any differently. Can I just come back in two weeks?” I’m 38 weeks at this point and I’m like, “I’m not even 40 weeks. Can I come back in 2 weeks when I’m in labor?” 

Meagan: And a first-time mom.

Ashley: Yeah, because my mom had me and my sisters right on 40 weeks, so I’m just expecting the same. She said, “No. You can’t.” I was like, “Oh, okay.” She said, “No, you can’t do that.” I said, “Okay.” She said, “You know what? We’re just about to have an obstetrician meeting, so I’ll go in there and I’ll ask the consultants what they think and I’ll come back with a plan.” “Okay,” I said because she also did talk about my option of being a Cesarean on the Monday and I said to her, “Look. I’m going to be honest with you. There’s no way in hell that you’re going to get me to come in for elective surgery. It’s just not going to happen. I never wanted to birth like that and I don’t want to.” 

She came back and she said– they obviously spoke about what I had said and they made for me later a plan to push me in the way they thought that I was going to bend the most, so they said, “Look. We’ve bumped all of the surgeries for the day and we’re going to book you in as priority because we feel like you should be having this baby now.” I was kind of like, “Okay.” So they were bumping all of these surgeries. There were people sitting out in the waiting room waiting to have their babies, but they were going to bump me to have my baby first. I had my sister in the room who was a surgery nurse who had been pushing me to have surgery the whole time because she was traumatized. I’d been fighting her the way through like, “No. I don’t want to do that. I want to have a vaginal birth.” 

I was so exhausted and my husband only had 5 days off of work, so he had to return in a couple of days. I had my in-laws at my house babysitting my dog and I was promised a baby. I feel like at that point, I was just like, “Okay, well if that’s what you think, then okay. I’ll do it.” I signed this 3-page waiver form by the way, which I was really scared of. I was like–

Meagan: What am I doing? What am I signing?

Ashley: My sister is getting me prepared. She just finished a shift from working upstairs in nursing and she organized for herself to get in there, so it was going to be my husband and her. They never allowed a third person, but because she worked there and knew people, she was able to weasel in. She’s getting me ready like a good nurse. She’s so excited. She gets to be a part of it and I’m just recording a video of, “If I die, tell my baby I love my baby.” I am so petrified. I’ve got video and photos and I just look at the photo and it’s like me trying to look excited, but actually, I’m like, “Holy crap. This is really scary and I don’t want to do this.” 

Meagan: Why is everybody so excited and I’m terrified? And why is no one talking to me about this? 

Ashley: Because I’m giving up control. They’re not getting the knife, but I am. It’s really scary if you’ve never had surgery. It’s not something that we do every day and it’s not something that I had ever gone through before. So off I go into surgery and it’s really good that my sister was there because she got to take a lot of photos and she got to be a part of it. 

Meagan: That would bring some comfort maybe. 

Ashley: Yeah, I felt like they would step up a bit as well because they knew that it was one of their own in there and I was one of their own. She took a lot of photos and things like that, but when they were doing the spinal, no one can be in the room. I just remember feeling so petrified and shaking and looking into this big man’s eyes who was holding me and thinking, “You look like a nice man. Keep me safe.” 

This midwife came around and she was like, “You look like a deer in headlights” because it was like all of these lights shining down at me. I’m in this crazy room with surgery stuff. I’m really scared. I’m petrified, but I went through the whole process and the obstetrician and everyone, it was Christmastime. It was early Christmas. It was December 5th and they were all having their Christmas party that night, so they were all very happy talking about the Christmas party. “You’re going to the Christmas party? I’m going to the Christmas party.” I thought, “Well, they’re not fast. They’re not stressed. They’re very happy. They’re starting their day. I’m the first one. They’re excited about the Christmas party.” It didn’t feel very personal. I definitely didn’t feel included in the process. They were just talking among colleagues. 

Meagan: I can so relate. So relate. 

Ashley: It’s horrible. 

Meagan: Yeah. They were talking about the snow outside and how depressing it was because the one just gotten back from Hawaii. He was like, “Oh, I came back to snow.” I was like, “I’m right here. Can we talk about my baby? Can we talk about me?” 

Ashley: Yeah, it’s very impersonal. I mean, it’s one thing at the dentist to be chatting it up. I don’t mind it at the dentist if they’re chatting or something, or the orthodontist or something, but yes. I thought, “At least they’re calm.” The baby was born in no time and then announced, “It’s a baby girl.” I just thought, “Oh, can I go to sleep now? I’m not really interested in this. I’m very time. I’m shaking. This is not a great experience.” I just turned around and said, “Can I go to sleep? I don’t want to hold the baby.” It’s uncomfortable anyways, but I can’t really hold the baby. I’m shaking. I’ve never really had that many drugs in my system before and off to recovery we go basically. That’s a new experience as well. 

Yeah, it wasn’t a great postpartum experience in the hospital. It was quite a negative experience with the night midwives, so I was really excited to get out. I left a day early because I just did not want to have to put up with the night staff. My husband wasn’t allowed to stay. 

Meagan: Oh, why? 

Ashley: So in our hospital in the public system, some of them have got 4 or 5 to a room, so I was in a 4 or 5 to a room. They don’t allow husbands to stay. I couldn’t get out of bed. 

Meagan: I didn’t know that. That’s like old school.

Ashley: It is old school. A lot of them are getting upgraded now because obviously, it’s better to have your own room and stuff, but that’s where I was lumped. No one wants to birth there because no one wants to share a room, but if you’re in the catchment, that’s where you get stuck unless you go private. 

So he got booted out at 10:00 at night, and then I was left with this witch of a midwife who every time my baby cried, she was like, “Oh, look. You’re just going to have to sleep with the baby on your belly because I can’t be coming back here to get the baby all of the time.” I was like, “But it’s not guidelines. I’m not allowed to sleep with my baby with my chest. I can’t sleep and it’s stressing me out.” In my head, I’m saying those things, but yeah. It was horrific. 

The next morning, my husband came and I was letting loose at him. I was like, “Why weren’t you here? The baby and I haven’t slept.” I was so stressed. I mean, think about it. Being awake for 3 days, having been in the hospital for a long time, and then having gone and had major surgery, you’re left on your own with this baby with barely any support. No one telling you what to do, trying to breastfeed with your nipples getting ripped by the way. 

Meagan: Pretty much abandoning you. Pretty much. 

Ashley: Basically. So the second night, I stayed and sorted that out, then I went home the next day. I did have a bit of a thing with the midwife. She was on again, so I ran down to the bathing room and I hid from her because– okay. One thing you should know about me is that I am a highly sensitive person, so something that someone might say to someone may not affect them as much as it would affect me. 

Meagan: It triggers you. 

Ashley: It really upsets me and being in a vulnerable position, I need someone who’s gentle, nurturing, and loving. So I ran away and I hid in the bathing room with my baby. I was trying to work out why she was crying. I had fed her. I swaddled her. I changed her. I was really trying to work it out. She could hear the baby screaming and obviously thought that I was not looking after my baby. I said, “Look, I’m just trying to figure out what’s happening here.” She’s like, “You just need to hold her.” I was like, “No, I just need to figure out what’s happening because I’ve got to go home with this baby and work this out.” She’s like, “Why don’t I take the baby and I’ll look after the baby so you can get some sleep?” 

I’m like, “No. That’s not happening.” I was so against this woman. She was like, “Here’s your medication. Take your medication. I’ve been looking for you,” and then she sent another colleague down to come and check on me and try to convince me to give the baby up. But what I discovered by sticking to my guns and doing what I felt was intuitively right for me was that my baby was pulling her arms out of the swaddle and that was waking her up. 

So I put her in a little zip-up and from then on, she slept through the night. My husband came the next morning right on the dot. I had a shower. Baby was sleeping. He’s like, “Where’s the baby?” I’m like, “She’s sleeping,” feeling like a million dollars. “I’ve got this. I’ve got this and we’re checking out today.”

Meagan: Yep. Get me out of here. 

Ashley: I went home and we struggled with breastfeeding. I got some really bad advice from one of the nurses that came to my house so I felt like a double failure. By 6 months time, I was mixed feeding to just formula feeding and I felt like a real failure. I let her down. I hadn’t birthed her the way– I didn’t feel like I birthed with, “When I had my baby,” or “When my baby was born.” I didn’t say “When I birthed,” because I didn’t feel a part of the experience. 

It happened to me. It wasn’t inclusive to me. I just felt completely excluded. So I knew when I was going to have my second, I was having a VBAC for sure because I knew there was a thing possible. I knew about VBACs and I said to my GP, “What’s the timeframe between babies?” She said, “24 months between birth and birth.” That was the thing then or whatever. 

I said, “Fine. I’m having 24 months.” I literally started trying within 24 months, whatever it was, 15, or whatever. I fell pregnant the second time. I was having a VBAC and I think I joined the VBAC group in Australia. I started learning all of the stuff, becoming informed and advocating. I knew that this time I wasn’t having an induction because that’s what caused me a C-section. I knew that I wanted to try to avoid GDM because that’s what I thought was the lead-up for the induction rush. 

I didn’t realize that my weight was obviously pushing against me so much. I didn’t understand the reasons why or some of the discrimination that happened in the hospital at that point. I did the early GTT test and I passed that. I was like, “Yes. Maybe this is going to be different.” I’m going to show them. I’m educated. I know what I want. I’m informed. I’m also a people pleaser so I’m trying to get them on board with me. I’m trying to get them to agree with my decision. I’m trying to get them to be a part of my team and cheer me on and get excited.

I’m just kind of getting met with obstetricians who were like, “VBAC is great and it’s the best way to birth your baby.” I’m like, “Yes. This is amazing.” 

Meagan: You’re like, “Thank you. This is what I want to hear.” 

Ashley: “But not for you.” I’m like, “What? Not for me?” “Well, for you, we recommend a planned Cesarean.” “Okay.” They never really spoke in plain language or explained it to me. It was only through digging and digging and digging and asking and asking and asking that I was finally able to get some answers. I essentially ended up getting gestational diabetes at 20 weeks, so then I wasn’t allowed to see midwives because I had asked to see midwives and they said, “If you get GD, we won’t release you.”

Meagan: It disqualified you. 

Ashley: It disqualified me from seeing midwives. I said, “Look, you’re a surgeon. Can I just see you if I need surgery?” The thing with GD is that there is a GD counselor and somebody that you report to outside of them, so why do I need to see you because you’re not a GD expert or specialist? I actually see somebody. Why is a midwife not capable of looking after me? It doesn’t make any sense. They’re just trying to pull in all of the patients to keep their bellies full and make sure they’ve got jobs. I was gutted. I was absolutely gutted. 

I only failed by .1 on one of the tests and I wish I had known back then that I could have redone it and I probably would have passed it. It was really disappointing and I was like, “Oh, goodness me.” So I was diet-controlled through that time. I say diet-controlled because that’s the readings that I gave them. I wasn’t really diet-controlled but I was being a bit of a rebel because I was getting the same numbers as I was with my first baby and I was on insulin with her and insulin didn’t do much. I thought, “Well, what’s the difference going to be if they’re the same numbers? She came out healthy and had no sugar problems or anything.” I kind of started to think, “Is this GD thing a bit overrated? If I was in a different hospital or a different country—”

Meagan: I was going to say if you went somewhere else like last time, would it have been different or would it actually have been GD as well? 

Ashley: If I had gone somewhere different and I knew this because I was part of the GD community and I had friends that were birthing in Brisbane who were even having to keep below higher numbers than me. They had much higher numbers than me, so I thought, “You’re with a private obstetrician and you’re getting different information than me,” so I started to clue on that. And then also, when I was doing my readings on my fingers, I would get a different reading on this one to this one, so I started questioning, “If this one’s .5 difference to this one, how accurate is this measuring?”

Meagan: Yeah, interesting. Very interesting. 

Ashley: So it was very scary for me to do that because nobody’s doing that and every time you’re going there, they’re like, “Dead baby. There was a woman who had gestational diabetes and her baby died.” And I was like–

Meagan: You hear these and you’re like, “What?” 

Ashley: I was like, “How did she die? How did the baby die?” They said, “Oh, we can’t disclose that information. You’re telling a room full of women with gestational diabetes that a baby died and the mum had gestational diabetes. She could have been hit by a car for all we know and you’re using it to fearmonger us, but you’re not willing to tell us how the baby died. It could have been negligence on the hospital’s part. It may not have been GD related at all.” 

Meagan: Yeah, she just had it. 

Ashley: She just had it, so I found that quite disgusting and all of those things started to really add up. The more that I saw in the VBAC community, the more that I saw this was happening around Australia, the more I was determined to advocate and fight which is really hard for a highly sensitive person, but I got a student-midwife. I got the head midwife to come to my appointments. I had a student-doula who was a dear friend of mine and I started to grow a team around me. 

I refused to see one of the doctors at one point and wanted to speak to the best, most amazing doctor in the hospital, so the midwives set me up with the nicest obstetrician who still didn’t support me to have a vaginal birth, but he was nicer to deal with. I mean, I had some crazy conversations with some of the obstetricians during that time. One of them was a junior and she said to me because I didn’t want to have continuous monitoring. I just wanted to have the doppler. She said, “You know what my boss says? He says that if you don’t have continuous monitoring, then you’re basically free birthing in the hospital.” I looked at her and I was like, “You’re crazy.” At this point, free birth to me was crazy and she was telling me that because I’m in a hospital and if I’m not doing that, then I’m free birthing. 

And I thought, “But I’m getting checked with a doppler by a midwife. I’m with obstetricians.” That is absolutely insane, but it goes to show the kind of mentality and the thought process that goes through the fact that they don’t know how to be with women. They don’t know how to observe and watch a woman. Now, my mindset is the complete opposite way. I see things in a different light than how they would see. They rely on machines whereas they don’t rely on that connection. I’m the type of person that relies on human-to-human connection and I’ve listened to people and I love stories. That’s how we learn. We don’t learn about humans by watching machines. 

I started to learn about the inaccuracies of their machines and some of the equipment that they were using. It made no sense to me to have continuous monitoring when I knew that one obstetrician would send me to surgery for the reading whereas another one with maybe more experience who may be older and more chilled would be like, “Yeah, that’s nothing.” If the results are at that rate, then that’s not beneficial to me because then I’m putting my fate on whether I get a choppy-choppy obstetrician or a chilled, relaxed one on the day. 

So that was kind of my thinking. I didn’t do growth scans this time. I didn’t see the point in me having a growth scan to tell me that I was having a big baby. My first was 3.7 at 39 weeks. I knew this one was going to be 4 kilos and I said, “Look, I’m happy to birth a 4.5-kilo baby out of my vagina,” which is almost 10 pounds for your listeners and they just wanted to do Cesareans on 4-kilo babies as well as inductions. It was always about induction and I found out the reason why they wanted to do induction. They wanted to manage me. 

They weren’t a tertiary hospital, one of the bigger ones, and so I found out that the junior obstetricians wouldn’t be comfortable doing or maybe confident or capable of doing an emergency Cesarean on someone of my size, so I said, “That’s fine. Just send me to that hospital or that hospital. Let’s just do this. If it’s a staffing issue, I don’t want to stretch it out.” They just laughed at me. It can’t be a big deal then, can it? If they’re not willing to send me to a different hospital. 

We had so many conversations and it was anxiety-inducing. I would cry on the way to the hospital. I would cry on the way home. I’d have to get my fight on and I even had a conversation with an obstetrician that said to me, “We’ll fight about that later.” I said, “That’s exactly right though isn’t it? It’s a fight, the fight.” 

Meagan: Yeah, we’ll fight about that later. That right there. 

Ashley: He goes, “Oh, I didn’t mean fight. I don’t mean fight.” I go, “Yeah, but no. You do.” 

Meagan: But you just said that. 

Ashley: But you do. 

Meagan: You’re like, “Yeah, I can tell that you’re not agreeing with me and you’re telling me that if I want something else, I’m going to have to fight with you.” 

Ashley: And so I’m hearing about this informed consent and I’m like, “Informed consent.” I’m fixated on what would get them to be on my side. I’ve learned about informed consent. They legally have to support me, right? But that is just the fast in my opinion, in my experience, they wouldn’t know what informed consent or working with a woman, it just blows my mind. I didn’t realize that at the time, but there were a lot of conversations that were happening about my weight. “You’re not going to be able to. It’s harder for bigger women like you.” I would leave conversations thinking, “I’m not going to be able to birth my baby out of my vagina because I’m big.” 

Meagan: They were shaming you. 

Ashley: Yeah, basically I was told by an obstetrician that, “She’s not a fatist, but—.” I was like, “I’ve never heard someone say ‘I’m not a fatist.’” I don’t even know what that means. I had some really interesting conversations because I was asking questions and I was asking questions because I was asking so many questions. Every time I went to an appointment, the obstetrician would say to me, “Ah, I see you’re having a repeat Cesarean,” and that would spike adrenaline. Read my book. Read my book. You would know that I’m having a VBAC and then, “Oh, well do you know the risks of VBAC?” Yes, I do. “Oh, you really do know the risks, but we still recommend that you have a repeat Cesarean,” and I would have to go through that every single time. 

Meagan: So discouraging. 

Ashley: It was a nightmare. By 36-37 weeks, I had received a phone call and they said, I could feel the smugness and a smile through the phone, “Oh, we’re not willing to take the risk. You’re going to have to go to a different hospital.” I was just horrified. I was so scared. I’ve just been kicked out of hospital because nothing has changed with me.”

Meagan: But because I won’t do what they want me to do and I’m being stern in following my heart. 

Ashley: Yeah, because I won’t submit. I’ve told you from day one what I’m going to do, but I suppose the rate of success with that tactic is probably 99%, I’m probably the 1% of women who actually says, “No. I actually will not fall for your trickery.”

Meagan: Yeah, okay fine. I’ll leave. 

Ashley: I was so determined, so then I went to a different hospital and it was a newer hospital. They had birthing pools. I was hopeful that I might get in a birthing pool. You get your own room in the postpartum. I was excited. They had informed consent signs. The receptionists weren’t fighting each other. This first one that I went to was pretty rough down there. They were lovely and polite. I thought, “Oh, this feels nice. Maybe I’m going to have a different response,” and I did. I saw an amazing midwife on entry. She was like, “If they’re not going to allow you to do this, you advocate and you can make a complaint. That’s disgusting how you were treated.” 

I thought, “Oh, wow. This is the best thing.” I saw an obstetrician. They were supportive. They wanted to do some of the same things, but they respected me. I felt like I was seen as a human. They would ask me questions and they would go and ask a consultant and the consultant would agree with me. I was like, “Wow, I am ticking boxes here.” I made some compromises because I was vulnerable. I did a growth scan and they found out that baby was about 4 kilos. 

Meagan: Like you already guessed. 

Ashley: I knew that at 39 weeks. I said, “That’s fine.” “Oh, we recommend induction.” I said, “Yeah, I know you do. I’m not doing it.” That’s what caused me the C-section last time. I’m not doing it. We went through the study at 39 weeks. I said, “That doesn’t apply to me. It doesn’t apply to me. I’m not in that study. It doesn’t mean anything to me.” 

I don’t know how you can have a study saying that it’s going to work better on someone at 39-41 because you’re not doing the same people. You’re not doing induction on someone at 39 weeks and then going, “Hey, let’s try it again at 41 or whatever it is.” You’re doing different people. I don’t want to know about it. I don’t care about it. They said, “Okay, well I’ll talk to the consultant. We’ll look at the scan,” and then she came back and said, “Yep, you’re fine. There’s no fat on the shoulders, so yep. That’s fine.” But if I hadn’t said that, I would have been booked in for an induction, right? I would have just said, “Let’s go, yep.” 

I sat there on the weekend with my husband shaking like a leaf again having to advocate for myself. It isn’t an easy thing to do. Every time I have to raise my voice, I’m putting adrenaline into my body. I’m not raising like screaming, but I’m having to raise my voice. My baby would have been under attack the whole pregnancy essentially. I eventually get to the due date. A week before my due date– it was a couple of days before my due date– my midwife turns to me at the last appointment. She was training in the hospital last time, so I was really grateful that she was willing to come with me and support me even though she wasn’t going to get her book signed off for this birth. 

And on that appointment, she said to me, “Look, my daughter’s booked a holiday for me, so I’m going away on your due date. Are you going to have this baby soon now?” I was like, “Oh my goodness. You’ve just fought with me the whole time and now you’ve turned into them trying to get me to have my baby before my due date because it suits you.” 

Yes. I was heartbroken and I was so angry. I decided then and there I was not going to invite her into my birth space even if it was sooner because she had betrayed me on every level. I went into that appointment and the obstetrician didn’t recommend it, she said, “Do you want to do a cervical stretch?” A sweep and I said, “No, I don’t.” I turned to the midwife and said, “What do you think?” She was like, “Yeah, why not?” Of course, she said that because it gets the baby out quicker. 

So again, you’ve got to be careful about who you’re with because if you’re relying on people who’ve got a different agenda, you’ve got to take their advice or their opinion with a grain of salt. But I was a little bit interested myself. I’d never had a stretch or a sweep like that before. I was a bit interested. I was worried that I was going to go over due dates and I was willing to wait for 40+10 and I was getting a bit stressed like, “Oh, what if it goes longer?” You start to freak out at that point. 

There’s a bit of pressure and with what I’d been through, I had the stretch and sweep. She said, “You’re 3 centimeters and you’re stretchy.” I was like, “Wow. Wow. Last time, they couldn’t even– I was closed up.” 

Meagan: Get a Foley in. 

Ashley: Yeah. So I was so excited. I started to get some niggles and lose some mucus and a bit of blood and things like that. Two days later, I went into labor. She said to me, “If it does nothing in the next couple of days, then the baby wasn’t ready to come. If it happens, then the baby was always going to come,” sort of thing. Now, obviously, what’s the point in doing them if the baby is going to come and it does nothing but disturb? I mean, my complete mindset changed and flipped. But yeah, I went into straight labor. I was so excited and so proud of myself. I’m in labor this time. 

I never knew if my body was broken after all of the fearmongering and talk. I was just so proud of myself. It was exciting. I had adrenaline pumping through me. I was shaking with fear and excitement. I was going to wait the whole day to go in. I was going to essentially go to hospital when my baby’s head was coming out. 

As soon as I went into labor, I was like, “Yeah. I think I should go to the hospital.” I was adamant the whole time I wasn’t going in until I was ready to push and as soon as I was in labor, I was like, “Yep. Okay, it’s time.” 

Meagan: Let’s go. It’s exciting. You’re like, “Okay, let’s go have this baby.” 

Ashley: Yeah, and it was fast and hard. When I go into labor, it’s not any prelabor, it’s just that this is on. I dilate pretty quickly. When I got to the hospital, I was 5 centimeters. They were really surprised at how I was doing because I was quite calm and quiet. They were like, “Oh.” I got eventually into the birthing suite. My doula came and set up the room really pretty. I went into the shower and had a midwife assigned to us. She just sat down and read my birth plan and was happy with everything. She wouldn’t let me in the birthing pool of course because I was over 100 kilos even though they’ve got a hoist for bigger people if they need to. They’re just not comfortable with bigger people in the birthing pool. 

I just did my thing and I said, “I don’t any doctors to come in. I don’t want anyone annoying me or harassing me.” And I just labored for a few hours until I felt like there were some waters or something I could smell and feel. The midwife said, “Do you want me to check you?” I said, “Yeah. Yeah, we’ll see if the waters have gone.” She said, “Yeah, the waters have gone and yeah, this is a little fore bag so would you like me to break that?” I said, “Well, if you think so, okay.” 

At this point, my education had gone to the point of getting past the induction. If I had gotten into spontaneous labor and I saw a midwife because everything was raving about midwives, I’m going to be fine. This baby’s going to come out of my vagina okay. I didn’t know anything about birth really. I just knew what not to do. I’m probably not going to have an epidural, but I’m open to it. You shouldn’t break the waters, but I don’t really understand why. But I wasn’t having my waters broken. I was just having a little bit of my waters broken. 

And then came the tsunami and it was my entire waters. It was all over the bed and it was all warm. I was like, “What is happening?” She had either–

Meagan: So your bag never really did break until then. 

Ashley: No, yeah. Yeah. Yes. And there’s some other information. She’s like, “Oh, we’ll put the screw on the baby’s head.

Meagan: The FSC, fetal scalp electrode? 

Ashley: We call it the clip. 

Meagan: A clip. 

Ashley: Yeah, some call it the screw. I call it the screw. It’s a little clip and it barely hurts. That was one of my compromises from not having continuous monitoring. I said, “If I have that, then I can be mobile.” That was the compromise and negotiation. Then, I found myself locked to a machine by the way because it wasn’t mobile at this point. Then as soon as I got off the bed, there was a decel, so I was back on the bed. I was in excruciating pain at this point. I come out of my nest in the shower where I was able to breathe through everything and I was standing upright. Now there was a bit of fear happening because there was a decel that she didn’t recover from quickly enough, so then the obstetricians and everyone had to come in. 

They were kind of like, “Oh, C-section,” talking about it already. I said, “No. I don’t want to talk about it. The baby’s fine. Just let me do my thing.” “Okay, okay,” and then they hounded me to get a catheter in my arm even though I didn’t want one. I said, “No, I don’t want one.” It’s really painful and I don’t want it. She said, “Oh, come on. We’ll just get one in.” I said, “Okay, fine. Just do it then. Just leave me alone.” So she put it in and I’m walking around with this thing coming out of my vagina, this thing in my hand and I’m out of the zone and really finding it hard to get back into how I was feeling. 

Meagan: Your space. 

Ashley: Yeah, my space. 

I must have been in there for an hour or two, maybe a bit longer. By this point, they’ve told me that I’m 10 centimeters on one side, 8 centimeters on the other and there were a couple more decels and maybe one more and they were saying things to me that I don’t understand. They were like, “You’ve got an anterior lip. It’s swollen. You’re 10 centimeters on this side and 8 centimeters on that side. Your baby’s asynclitic. Your baby’s up high.” They’re looking at me and I’m like, “I don’t know.” 

Meagan: You don’t know what any of that means. 

Ashley: I’m 10 centimeters. The baby is going to come out right any minute. I’m just like, “Is the baby’s going to come out soon?” I was starting to feel some pushy pains as well, so my body was pushing a little bit too and then I think I went back into the shower and I called in my husband because he was a weak link and I knew he would do what I said. I was like, “I want an epidural.” And the epidural was there within 10 minutes. I knew that would happen. They wanted me to have an epidural on arrival because of my said. I went to the anesthesiologist appointment and they looked at my back and said, “No, you’ve got a fine back.” What they’re worried about with bigger people is that there can be fat over the spine. I said, “Okay, well I’ve got a fine back,” which I thought would be fine because I never had any problems with the C-section. 

They said, “But we still recommend an epidural on arrival.” I was like, “Okay. Well, at least I understand why.” The thing is that I’m trying to get information from them so I can make informed choices, so if it’s in my best interest, then I will say yes and I will do it. But if it’s in the best interest of you to make your life easier, then I’m not going to do it. I’m not going to put myself or my baby at risk to make your life easier. I understood that an emergency C-section was a higher risk than a planned C-section. I understood that induction was a higher risk. I knew all of the before things and the choices. What I got stuck with is I didn’t understand physiological birth. I hadn’t done any research on that. 

So they were talking to me gobbledygook, all of these things were happening. I just never thought that this could happen. I never ever thought this would happen to me. My mom had me in 7 hours. What is happening? What are these things that are happening? Now I’m on the bed. I’m stuck on the bed because I’ve chosen to have an epidural and now I’ve negotiated because we have had a couple of decels. I’ve negotiated for myself what I think is a pretty sweet deal which I realize is actually a really bad deal of vaginal examinations every hour. 

The normal standard practice is about every 4 hours and I’m like, “Okay. How about if we just check every hour and see if there is any progress?” They’re like, “Yeah, that sounds great.” Every hour, they come into me and they’re saying, “No change. Baby’s up high. No change. We recommend C-section. These are the risks if you wait.” They were talking to me about the risks that would happen in a Cesarean, not about the risks that would happen in a vaginal birth if I wait. So it was very biased. 

I was like, “Okay, so what happens if I wait to have a vaginal birth?” They were like, “Well, we just recommend a Cesarean.” I feel like I’m in a room stuck with the enemy. I said to my doula, “I don’t trust them. I feel like they know what they’re talking about, but I don’t know any different either.” My doula was a student doula and it’s not like I came in there with a midwife who is on my team. I’m looking at the midwife and I’m like, “Are you going to help me?” I’m realizing that she’s team obstetrician. I mean, I’ve never met her before. She was just working there. I’m thinking, “This is not what was sold to me in the VBAC group if I see a midwife. Midwives are amazing, blah blah blah blah.” What I actually missed was that independent midwives that are not working in hospital have more free reign are the midwives that everyone’s raving about. 

I’m thinking it’s just random midwives, any midwives are awesome. And not every midwife’s awesome because you’ve got different personalities. You’ve got different experiences. You’ve got different passions and every person is different just like you can find an amazing obstetrician. You can find an amazing personal trainer, but they’re not going to suit everybody or everyone’s needs. And they have a bias against different people based on color, based on gender, based on size, based on the way that you look. If they can identify with you, they are going to be more attached to the story and fight and advocate a bit more. If they’re not really into you, they’re going to be like, “Oh well. I’m not going to lose my job over this,” sort of thing. 

I’ve learned all of these things since. Eventually, after about 6 hours, I had another decel. I think I had about 3 in total. It wasn’t a huge amount. 

Meagan: Yeah, and how low were they? Do you remember? 

Ashley: I don’t remember. The problem was that she wasn’t coming back as quickly as they would have liked. 

Meagan: Prolonged. 

Ashley: Yeah, it was prolonged. I also didn’t know at the time that the epidural also slowed down my contractions too. I only know this from getting the hospital notes which is quite common with epidurals as well. Eventually, I just said, “Okay, fine. I’m fine. I’ll go.” After the last one, it felt like my baby was at risk. If someone is coming to you every hour saying, “This is the risk. We recommend that,” eventually, you just give up. I think I had been in labor for a total of 12 hours at that point. The first labor I had ever had and off I went. As I was going out, the midwife said to me, “It’s okay. I had a home birth planned, but I ended up in a Cesarean. You’ll be okay.” I was like, “See? You never would have been on my team because you hadn’t even had a vaginal birth yourself.” I looked at her and I was like, “That was the worst thing you could have ever said to me at that point.” 

I was like, “Just because you had one and you’re okay with it doesn’t mean that I’m okay with it.” It was the worst thing. She obviously thought it was really supportive, but I felt so betrayed. So off I went and I had my surgery. Everything started to go downhill. My husband got rushed out of the surgery with my baby and you could just feel that it was intense. I said to my husband, “I love you. Look after the baby. I think I’m either going to lose my uterus or I’m going to die.” 

Meagan: Were you hemorrhaging? 

Ashley: Basically, the story that they tell me, I’m not sure if I believe it, but even if it is true, it is what it is at the end of the day. One of the risks that they were worried about is when a baby descends too much, there’s a– you know this yourself– there’s always a risk of a special scar happening because there’s more risk of a tear or them having to cut more. So that’s what they were informing me about the whole time. They knew about the risk and they were trying to stop– 

Meagan: But they kept saying that baby was high, right? 

Ashley: They told me that baby was high. They said that when the baby came out, she flung her arm up and ripped it down to my cervix. 

Meagan: Oh, okay. 

Ashley: Now, how does that happen when a baby is up high? If she’s up high, how is she ripping down to my cervix? Now I think about that. How does that happen? Because my cervix was fully dilated. 

Meagan: Yeah, except on that one side. Did it ever finish? That swelling, that edema, did it go down? 

Ashley: Not that I know of. What they told me was nothing had changed positioning in that. Then when I looked at the notes when I got the notes, he laid out, “I saw that the positioning had changed.” She had come down a station, but they never communicated that to me. I have a feeling that she was probably down a bit further than they had put because, on the paperwork, they also said I was only 7 centimeters. There was no mention of an anterior lip, so they fudged the papers a little bit and weren’t honest. I mean, if you’re going to make a few little changes, then obviously, there’s a reason for that. It obviously looks better on paper. 

Meagan: That’s what happens all of the time. The patient will hear one thing, then on the op reports, it’s a little different. So we always encourage you to get your op reports. It’s sometimes hard to read but get your op reports. 

Ashley: It is hard to read. You know, they put it on the board too here in Australia what you are and at what time, so the information is there for me to look at the whole time while I’m in labor, so it’s not that one person just said it, it’s literally on the board for you to see. I was quite upset when I saw some of the notes. I went through the notes. I’ve been through them multiple times now and I was just trying to learn. I was Googling, “What does this mean and what does that mean?” because I don’t know the medical jargon. 

I’m learning all of the things and I’m looking at Spinning Babies. I’m looking at everything and trying to learn after the fact, but essentially what had happened was apparently, she had flung around there, tore my uterus down to the cervix and then they needed to call in a specialized team to come in and resolve that problem that they had created. The surgery went on for a number of hours and it was a very challenging surgery. I wanted to crawl out of my body essentially because I had been laying there for so long. It was just a horrible experience. 

I was reunited with my baby. She was born at 6:30. I was reunited with them at about 12:00 at night, so I had been in labor from 4:00 in the morning and then I was breastfeeding her because my husband advocated for her to be breastfed. So that meant that she had her sugars checked. They were fine, so they were happy for her to wait for me. I was really, really glad that my husband advocated for me. I was so tired when I got out of surgery and I was back in this hot room. I was sweating profusely. There was no aircon. Some of the rooms, even though it was new, didn’t have aircon. I ended up in a room with no aircon and it was so hot. 

I had to have a midwife stay with me and do observations every 15 minutes to check me. I didn’t end up in the ICU, but I lost 3.1 liters of blood. I had blood transfusions in the surgery, all of the stuff in the surgery to keep me awake, and all of that. I really wanted to go under, but they wouldn’t put me under because I had been eating. It wasn’t a great experience and I came out very traumatized from that experience. I ended up having PTSD with flashbacks. I was crying for months. I felt broken. They told me to never have a vaginal birth again, and that I could have two more babies so that was amazing. I was like, “Well, you must have done a good job if you think I could have two more,” but they must be born Cesarean. I was like, “Okay, no problems.” I was so grateful to be alive after that experience. I was trying to make sense of what had happened. 

The next few years, that was my mission to try to make sense because I’ve gone from a space of you’re not allowed to have a vaginal birth to what happened, trying to understand what happened, and then planning our future because we wanted four children total. So I almost never had any more children. For 6-12 months, I was done. I was never going to go through that again. 

I was a broken person. I was really struggling, but I trained as a postpartum doula and I started to want to help women in breastfeeding and the things that I knew that I could support because I ended up breastfeeding that baby for 12 months and I felt like a success at that regard. I learned a lot about breastfeeding. I wanted to share my voice and help women, but I wasn’t well enough to help women in the birth space because I felt like a failure. I was trying to learn and I wanted to be in a space where I felt safe. 

This was trauma and challenges were happening and this was me being able to help people and make a positive out of a negative essentially. 

And then I found you guys. I found your podcast and I was like, “This is amazing,” because you were the first place that was promoting VBAC after two Cesareans. Back then, nobody was having VBAC after two Cesareans let alone multiple now that we see happening. I think a lot of it has to do with your podcast because when you hear women’s stories and you hear the statistics and you can actually hear other women doing it, that was the start of me getting hope and realizing that there was another way. 

Meagan: Oh, that just gave me the chills. 

Ashley: Thank you so much for your podcast. 

Meagan: I have a sweater on right now, but literally it just went up my arm. 

Ashley: Awesome. It is really nice to know that if I didn’t come across your podcast, I probably wouldn’t have taken that next step, so it is life-changing to hear other women’s stories and have that resource. The fact that you guys had the stats and everything, I was very much in the stats trying to move through special scars. I eventually had gone onto Special Scars, Special Hope. 

Meagan: Such a good group. 

Ashley: Yeah, so amazing and started to connect with other women who were having worse scars than me. They were birthing on classical scars. I was like, holy moly. I think it was ACOG or maybe RANZ of New Zealand and Australia. They said it was okay to labor on a scar like mine because I had a vertical scar down to my cervix. That’s the low-risk special scar. I was like, “If it’s good enough for them, it’s good enough for me.” Look at these people saying that. All of the obstetricians that I had spoken to because I had a meeting with an obstetrician. I had met with so many midwives who knew about the system. They said to me, “Look. They are going to be petrified of you coming to the system.” 

It was really good to get that feedback and from my own experience, they wouldn’t allow me to have a VBAC let alone a VBAC after two Cesareans with a special scar and high BMI. I started to really try to uncover, so I met with an obstetrician from that hospital and she basically said to me, “Look, you’re a square peg trying to fit in a round hole or a round peg in a square hole.” I looked at her. I didn’t understand that. I had never that and I have never been referred to as that kind of person. I quite like doing what normal people do. 

I was looking at her. I’m like, “What are you talking about?” She just said to me, “Basically, I ended up with this surgery because the surgery who was working had decided that because of my weight, that that was all that I was capable of or that was the path that I was going through.” That was really the first time that I’ve felt like my weight has actually held me back or I’ve been discriminated against. When I look back at the fact of how I was treated and the conversations I was having, it was obvious that it was happening the whole way through, I just was so naive to it that it was happening in my face and I didn’t even realize it because the thing is that I understand that being of high weight can put you at risk for all of these things. 

I’m looking at it from their point of view, but I’m not actually sometimes looking at it from Ashley’s point of view. I understand their concern and I understood all of the medical stuff because I had listened to them. I had asked questions. I had read their policies for obese people. I understood that it was discrimination. I didn’t understand it at the time. I didn’t understand that they probably weren’t seeing me as a human as maybe they would have if I was a skinny version of myself. We probably would have had a different conversation. They probably would have been cheering me on and holding my hand and saying, “You’re an amazing VBAC candidate. We support you. We probably still want to do all of these things to you, but we’re not going to kick you out of hospital.” 

That’s the difference when I hear women’s stories. Oh, she’s allowed to get in the water bath and she’s allowed to have a beautiful birth. She doesn’t have to bend over backward and do a cartwheel and it’s because she looks a certain way or she was really lucky because she got an obstetrician that was amazing. There are all of these things that have to line up. That’s what has propelled me on my journey to find home birth as an option. 

Meagan: Home birth, home birth. So you talked about stats. You were on this mission of stats, so you went out and you found the stats about VBAC after multiple Cesareans, two Cesareans, special scars, found some stuff, said, “Okay, this seems acceptable,” and then you started a home birth. Based off of your own research, for you, you felt completely comfortable starting this journey. 

Ashley: No, I didn’t. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Ashley: I didn’t. I mean, I had to work through the fears with the stats and I was comfortable with home birth and the idea of home birth. I understood that home birth was as safe as birthing in a hospital and I understood that if I was birthing with a midwife I would have a medical person with me. Now, the next challenge that came for me was that I couldn’t find a home birth midwife who would support me. 

I feel like I leveled up. I was leveling up the whole time. It was like, now you’ve got a VBA2C. Now you’ve got a special scar. Let’s work through this. What do I feel comfortable with? What am I willing to take on? Okay, okay. That’s doable. That’s doable. I can work through that. What’s the next thing? Oh yeah, the next thing is this. Okay, what am I going to do with that? A home birth. Okay, a home birth feels like a safe option. I can do this. I can do that. I can do that. Okay, that’s going to be the best thing for me. I’m not going to go back to hospital. 

Meagan: I love that you said that. I can do this. I’m comfortable with this. You kind of have to go through that with anything. In life in general, but especially with this birth, you went through it and you were like, “Okay, yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Okay. Now, here I am.” 

Ashley: Yeah and I was seeing a psychologist at the time for all of the things to help me lose weight actually. My GP, I wanted to lose weight. I’ve been overweight my whole life. I wanted to lose weight. I went to a nutritionist and she was like, “You know everything. I think it’s emotional.” I’ve got childhood stuff going on. I worked with him and I said, “The way that I feel about the hospital system, is this right?” He’s normalizing my experience for me and saying, “You’re perfectly normal.” I’m trying to say, “Am I having a trauma response here? I don’t want to go into a home birth because I’m having a trauma response,” because the obstetrician said to me, one of them, she’s like– she wasn’t the best obstetrician for the debrief. She said to me, “You’ve got a risk of special scar, a 7% rupture rate.” I said, “That’s a little bit different from what I found in Special Scars, Special Hope where they are looking at women.” 

I said, “Have you got any statistics?” She’s like, “No.” I’m like, “So how can I trust that what you’re saying is correct then?”

Meagan: Well then, where’d you get 7%?

Ashley: Exactly. She’s like, “Look, if you find any doctor who’s willing to support you, then they’re not the doctor for you. I’m telling you what is the safest thing for you.” I was challenging her because at this point, I’m angry. I’m so done. I’m so done. I’ve just been through hell because of you people and I want to get information. I don’t want to hear your judgments. She said to me, “If you find a doctor, then basically they’re not right. They’re doing the wrong thing.” I said, “So you’re the best doctor in the whole world? You know everything right? You’re the best and you know the best then? So if I find another doctor who says yes then they’re wrong and you’re right, that’s what you’re saying?” She was just looking at me. She was like, “I just feel like what you’re going to do is you’re going to keep looking until you’re going to find someone and then you’re going to put yourself at risk.”

I’m like, “That is exactly what I’m going to do.” 

Meagan: You’re like, “Well, I’m glad you feel that way.” 

Ashley: I should have sent her a postcard after my free birth and said, “I freebirthed. Thank you for driving me to this.” It is amazing the conversations you have when you really do have conversations. You can see where they’re coming from and how very different their views are. Some of the fears and worries that they have are not about you and your baby. They are about themselves and their career, but the information I didn’t know about her was that she was actually the head of obstetrics and she just lost her title and her job. She’d been bumped down. 

The reason why I went to her was because she supported breech birth in hospital and she was very vaginal friendly. She did support me. She was the consultant I saw on the paperwork that supported me to have a vaginal birth, but in the timeframe of me organizing to meet up with her, the information that I didn’t know that I found out later was that she lost her job because she had supported somebody to have a breech and there was a poor outcome that the parents accepted, but somebody else had basically complained about. The only thing is that breech is so risky they say even though it’s not. She’s one of the radical obstetricians so she had been punished and so she was coming from a space of where she was. 

It’s really important to know that information. You never know where they are in their career or how they are feeling, so she might have been really bitter at the time and negative and feeling like there was doom and gloom in the world. It was really shameful when I was speaking to my doula friends and they were like, “Oh really? She was so amazing.” I’m like, “Yeah, well maybe she is amazing but not for people like me. Maybe she supports this person because they’ve got a thin body and because of me, she’s like, ‘No. I wouldn’t touch you with a 10-foot pole,’” because it’s too risky for her and for her job also. 

They are up against it as well in the system and that’s something I have learned. My next mission was that I needed to find a midwife who was going to bat for me, not somebody who was going to be worried about losing their career because they come after the midwives too that are home birthing. So I had gone to the free birth podcast as well and I was listening to their stories. I was like, “They’re a bit out there for me. I’m not brave enough to do that. That’s a bit radical.” Eventually, my husband was the one that talked me into a free birth when we couldn’t have a midwife to support me. It took me a long time to feel okay with that choice because that is a very different choice than what a lot of people were making at the time. 

Now I feel like home birth is very popular because everyone was flocking to it in COVID times and because of that, so many women are free birthing at least where I lived. And because I work in the space now, I see so many but there were only a handful of free birth doulas at the time. Now, everybody’s doing it. It’s like it’s no skin off anyone’s nose. It’s like, “Oh, just another free birth. Just another free birth.” It’s so normalized and it was very scary because I was the only one that was doing this, but also, the only one doing this that had a special scar and a high BMI. 

I was looking for somebody like me who had made this same choice and there wasn’t really any. So I was kind of connecting with the VBACs and hearing their stories as I went along. That gave me faith and trust. I had to learn about physiological birth and I had to take on a lot of responsibility. If it was a poor outcome, it was on me. If it was a poor outcome in the hospital, it was on me anyways. I had to live with the consequence of that choice. And so that was a hard thing to work through that no matter what, it was on me. It was just who did I want to place blame on. To the rest of society, if I birthed in a hospital and I lost my baby, society would be loving me and supporting me. If I lost my baby in a home birth, I’d be demonized and burned at the stake. 

As somebody who likes to fit in and not be– I’m not a Maverick-type personality I don’t think– it was quite challenging for me, but I eventually worked through it and I asked those questions to myself. I did this and I did that. I did healing and I did all of these things and I started my own podcast when I was 6 months, 5 months pregnant as well. It’s one thing to choose free birth, but then when you are pregnant, it’s like oh, there’s a baby now and all of these new fears come up. I got a doula straight away because I knew that I wanted emotional support. I wasn’t really sure that I needed physical support on the day. I felt really comfortable and capable of doing the birthing. 

I had gotten up to 10 centimeters whilst pushing out the baby. I thought that maybe having her there for the placenta would be really helpful because I don’t know. I was worried about postpartum hemorrhaging and also the placenta. I really knew that as a highly sensitive person, I needed that extra emotional support and I knew that that’s what doulas did. It’s what I did for my postpartum clients and at this time, I had been working with clients for a few years and supporting clients for a couple of years through our program. I really realized how important this work was. I was looking for somebody like me basically to support me through that experience. 

I went for somebody and this is why it’s important to choose the right people. I went for a free birth doula, but I went for a really tough person who was confident and strong. I didn’t go for a nurturing person because that to me wasn’t a strength and that you’re confident in this situation. Even though I said, “This is the support I want and need. Can you do this?” She didn’t have the personality to be able to deliver the kind of emotional support that I wanted. She had a very busy practice going on so she wasn’t able to support me the way I needed. 

And also, she didn’t know what a highly sensitive– I find that some people are okay with minimal support that maybe you check in once a month or maybe you check-in every couple of months or just really checking in at the end of the pregnancy, some of the doulas do. 

For me, I needed that every week, “Hey, how are you going? Are you alive? What’s going on for you? What kind of fears are you having?” I felt, as somebody that was free birthing for the first time who had PTSD and trauma, there was so much stuff that I needed support with, but I felt that I was really left to myself to kind of doula myself which is why now I work with women in this space doing the emotional support, but it was so easy that I didn’t have to go to the hospital, but I felt really alone through that period because I didn’t have the checks anymore. I didn’t have anyone checking in with me in that capacity. I didn’t have. It was COVID time, so I called a GP and got some scans and things that I wanted to get done which was really cool, but I was feeling really alone and that sort of thing. 

I was lucky to call in some of my village of doulas and my postpartum doula really stepped in from about 30 weeks for me. She would come and visit me. She’s a very dear friend of mine. We were friends before. We were business friends, so I had a lot of friends through my work. They became really good friends. I really relied on them and they were more than happy and honored to be part of my journey. I learned the skill of support because I was teaching my clients, “You’ve got to have a circle of support. You’ve got to have people to support you. Let’s talk about this fear.” I was doing all of the things that I was teaching my clients. I thought, “I’d better do these things, otherwise I’m a bit of a hypocrite, right?” 

Yeah. I was like, “I can’t ask my clients to do hard things if I’m not willing to do them, right?” Have hard conversations, put myself out there, and make myself vulnerable, so I was doing all of these things. 

Meagan: But it’s hard to do. It’s easier to preach. It’s easier to preach.

Ashley: Oh yeah, it is easier. But then when it’s you, you’re like, “Oh, what if they say no? What if they don’t want to help me? What if I’m a nuisance?” and I just had to have faith. I’ve learned about boundaries this time and healthy mindsets, so it was a completely different experience. My friends didn’t understand free birth, but they supported me. They were hospital doulas, so I couldn’t sit down and say to them, “I’m really worried. What if my baby does die?” They would be like, “Maybe you should just go to hospital.” I couldn’t really have truthful, honest conversations because that would be quite scary. 

Meagan: Yeah, man. You know, I just think what you just said is so powerful. “I couldn’t have truthful conversations because that would be scary.” 

Ashley: Yeah, it would be because they would be scared. 

Meagan: That is just so powerful to me because, in this world, we need to have that. We need to have those truthful conversations because they are going to be hard and they’re going to be scary, but you couldn’t. 

Ashley: No. And that’s why because it was such a small percentage of people doing it, it was hard. In the free birth communities, there were varying people. 

Meagan: I was going to say, was it quiet? Was it tight or did people talk about it? 

Ashley: In the free birth community, it was full of people who were free birthing because they wanted to and that was their choice. They had access and were able to get midwives, but there’s a difference. There are people in the community who live and breathe it because it’s a Christian upbringing or their mother did it, or intuitively, they are intuitive and they are connected with it. They are naturalists. They are very crunchy whereas I’m more mainstream and I couldn’t get a midwife, so I’m like, “Boo-hoo me.” I couldn’t get what I wanted in the hospital.

Boo-hoo me, I can’t get support. I can’t even get the prenatal care that I really want because no midwives will support me because they were worried about their insurance. So while I’m in the free birth community, I didn’t feel like I fit in. I’m half in the mainstream space, half in the free birth because I’m not making this choice from, “Oh, I love the idea of free birth.” I was, “I want to have a home birth, but I can’t get a midwife, so what’s the next best thing?”

Meagan: You feel stuck too maybe a little bit where you’re like, “If I want this birth, this is what I have to do.” 

Ashley: Yeah, exactly. It was the safest and best choice for me and my baby at the time, but I wasn’t making it from, “I’m so excited that this is my option.” Now, I’ve had the lived experience and confidence and I find that a lot of people, especially VBAC women or people who have had trauma in the hospital system if they choose to have a free birth, it’s usually from a space of so much baggage and so many emotional things that are coming with that. A lot of the time, they’re doing it because they want to protect their birth space from being interfered with by a medical person and they can’t trust even a midwife because even midwives can interfere in physiological birth, so they learn about free birth. 

This is where I was at. I wanted a midwife, but I didn’t want a midwife. I don’t want somebody who’s going to judge me because of my size or because I’m a VBAC, they’re going to be like, “Oh, you’d better go to hospital now. You’ve been in labor for 12 hours.” That would crush my soul to have to go to a hospital, so I was worried about that because I had been listening to free birth stuff. But I was also interviewing Dr. Rachel Reed who lives here in Australia and Dr. Sarah Buckley. I don’t know if you know these ladies. 

Ashley: Yes, Sarah Buckley. She’s got an amazing book. It’s on my desk here. I think it’s called Gentle Birth, Gentle Mothering, and Dr. Rachel Reid. Sarah’s on undisturbed birth and she’s had a free birth herself. Rachel talks about physiological birth and instinctive birth, so if you grasp the concept of how we birth outside of the system without medicine and that our body instinctively does what it needs to do without any involvement from midwives, she shares her story of being an attending midwife and not interfering in births and allowing them to unfold which meant she had to really look at how she practiced and how much she was really disturbing births by, “Oh, it looks like a woman needs to get in this position. By telling the woman to get in this position, I’m going to disallow and see what happens.” She would share stories of this woman is getting in this crazy position, but she’s a second-time mom. She’s had a vaginal birth. I’m just going to see what happens. 

Finding out the reason why the woman’s pointing her bum up to the sky is because the baby’s got its arm bent up and if she was standing up, gravity would have ripped her a new one whereas this is a slow birth. But nobody knows what’s going on except for her beautiful body and the nerves and everything that’s happening. I thought, “She’s a home birth midwife who’s attended hundreds of births in her career. She’s got a Ph.D. on this stuff. She knows what she’s talking about.” 

And then there’s this other doctor, Sarah, who’s talking about the hormones and she’s talking about undisturbed birth and how important it is, so you can’t really have an undisturbed birth in a hospital setting. You could, but you would be putting everyone’s nerves and wits on end.

Meagan: You would be free birthing. You would be free-birthing in the hospital. 

Ashley: You’d be free birthing in the hospital and everyone would be shaking out the door like, “Ohhhh.” You can have one at home, but what if I get someone who judges me because of my size or because they are worried about a VBAC? I also interviewed Melanie Jackson who did a study on free birth and why women of high-risk free birth. I asked her, “How would you feel attending a VBAC?” She said to me, “Generally, they do look for things with VBAC women.” They’re looking for the uterine rupture things, prolonged labor, surges between, infrequent surges and bleeding, and things like that. If you go over a certain time, they’re much more likely to transfer you to hospital. 

So I’m like, “Okay, well that’s good to know. Do I really want somebody who’s going to possibly be trigger-happy at my birth and end up in hospital again and goodness knows what happens?” So I’m stuck between having to go with these midwives because I know that they do physicological birth and I don’t know about them. They are a risk for me. That’s where I was. And then when I got rejected by the midwives that I knew were physiological and stood back and watched, I was like, “That’s it for me. I guess I’m free birthing and I’m going to muster the strength.”

Meagan: Here we go. 

Ashley: It was a very hard pregnancy with the HG again. It was a very different pregnancy. It was COVID times. I was lucky enough to get some of the appointments and scans and things without seeing a GP. I just kept saying I was seeing a midwife and I need you to do these scans or whatever and write the scripts for the scans. Actually, what had happened was I got to 38 weeks and my waters broke. It was the first time, so every experience is different. I was in my bed and I moved. I was like, “Did I just do that? Did I just make this happen?” I got up and I said to my husband, “Royce, Royce!” He’s running down the hallway. All of this water is coming out and he’s got a towel and he’s going behind me. I’m excited. 

It was 4:00 again, so my last one was at 4:00 and this one was at 4:00. I called my doula. She said, “Okay. Just go back to bed.” I’m already putting myself on a clock because I’ve got the things that I’m willing to wait for too. 48 hours. 48 hours. I’ve got to have this baby in 48 hours, otherwise, I’m transferring in. I’m stressing myself out. I’m like, “Okay. I’ll get into bed and see what happens.” 

Within a half hour, I was already contracting. I said, “Call her and tell her to come back down,” because I really wanted that womanly support and I wanted somebody with me. I always felt like both of my labors were going to be really quick because of my mum. 

Meagan: Yeah, you hear, “Oh, how’d your mom birth? Oh, you’ll probably birth like that.” 

Ashley: I went straightaway into labor and it was painful. I’m talking like very, very painful. My second one was fine. I could handle it. I was moving for hours before I asked for the epidural. This time, I went straight into it. I really think for me, it’s the fact that the waters went. 

Meagan: Yeah. It does make a difference. 

Ashley: It really did make a difference because I was in excruciating pain when the waters went and the same with this one. I thought, “Oh, what am I going to do? I’m going to sit on the toilet. No, that doesn’t work. I’m going to sit on the birthing ball. No, that doesn’t work. I’m going to lay on the bed. Okay, that’s okay. That’s okay, but I’m still stressing.” Music goes on. Hubby’s got the music on. I’ve got my birthing [inaudible], deep breathing. I’m moaning. I’ve got me on video. I’m just looking at my video now like, “You were in so much pain. I feel for you.” 

My kids are getting up. They are so excited. They’ve been trained. They’re little doulas. They’re like, “You’re so good, mom.” I can feel their high energy and I’m looking at them like, “I just hate everyone right now. I hate your soul.” On the video, they’re all like, “What’s mummy doing? She’s in labor. It’s so exciting.” They’re little faces. My husband was so excited and I’m in hell. And then eventually, I got into the birthing pool and I was still in hell. I was breathing through it and I was looking through my affirmations. My husband had scrambled to get the birthing pool and put everything out because we weren’t expecting me to go into labor until 40 weeks. 

I said to my doula, “Is this normal? Is this normal? Is this normal?” “Yeah, yeah. It’s fine.” I’m like, “Can you hold my hand because I really need to hold your hand right now?” I’m doing the cone and I’m breathing and she’s giving me some water and she’s doing a little homeopathic thing. I’m moaning. Nobody really knew the pain that I was in because it was all inside and internalized. I look at videos and it’s very peaceful and calm. I don’t look like I’m in much pain. I’m dealing with it really well. I’m very quiet. 

And then eventually, maybe after about 4 hours of that really challenging pain, I flipped a switch. There was nothing. It was just bliss. Peaceful, calm, no real pain. I mean, I was having surges and then I started pushing. I started to have pushing urges. Every third or fourth contraction, I was pushing. I was pushing out poop, so I was like, “Okay. This is great.” My husband’s having to clean it up. 

Meagan: It’s a good start. 

Ashley: It felt so satisfying and my body was taking over. I had no control. It was so satisfying and I would get on my knees and lean over the pool. I was bearing down, and then I would have a few contractions and I would just be laying back in the water relaxed. In between them, I was laughing. My leg went numb and I was like, “Oh god. My leg really hurts. I wish I could chop it off. It’s so painful.” I was leaning on the other side. I thought, “Is it because I’m laying on it?” But it wasn’t. It was the baby. I didn’t know that at the time. 

The baby made my leg go numb and I didn’t realize it. I had another posterior baby. I had a bit of pain in my back, but not too much. My theory is and I believe this to be true considering that I was 10 centimeters in 7 hours. I think the real pain for me was dilation. I think I got fully dilated and then knowing what I know about the pushing stage– I know the different stages and I know the different variations of normal now through Dr. Rachel Reed. I realized that what I had been taught about early labor, active labor, transition, and pushing stage isn’t true for every woman. 

Every woman is different. I had posterior babies, so I pushed every third or fourth contraction because I had fully dilated, but my baby now had to come down and I knew that because of my last one. So the whole rest of labor was my body pushing and my baby rotating. My husband said to me, “Look, you can see the baby is moving,” because you can actually see my stomach moving. I was like, “Oh wow, yeah.” It was literally just allowing that process to unfold the way that it needed to, listening to my body and getting into the positions that felt right for me. I had instructed my doulas to not tell me, coach me, or put me into any positions because I believed in undisturbed, instinctive birth and I wanted to allow it to unfold the way that it needed to unfold.

 I felt that was the safest way for me to birth my baby outside of the hospital setting. If I was birthing in a hospital setting, I would want to get that baby out as quickly as possible because there are a whole set of rules that happened in the hospital, but when you’re at home, you can do whatever you like and that’s what I really love about the birth that I had. 

Eventually, we were just going through that process. My husband was in the pool, he was out of the pool, and he was supporting me. People were laughing. The doulas went outside to give my husband and me a bit of privacy. There was a bit of a fuss about, “Have you done a wee? I can’t do a [wee]. I’m trying to do a wee. I’m trying to get a wee.” I watched a bit of orgasmic birth, so I said, “Why don’t we just get a little bit frisky for a bit and see if I can get wee?” So my husband was touching me and I was touching him. I still couldn’t wee. I was really fixated on that and I really wish I hadn’t. It was every now and then. I’m like, “Oh maybe it’s the water.” The wee is stopping the baby from coming out and getting me ahead a little bit which is why I don’t like people asking things, but I understand why people do ask things because they’re checking if you’re okay.

Eventually, I said to my husband, “Oh, can you put your hands in there and see if you can feel anything?” Before, I had felt this huge push, this humungous poop the size of a head was coming out. I was like, “Oh my god. I’m going to do the biggest poop,” but of course, it was the baby’s head coming right down. I didn’t know at the time and it was baby’s head coming down. I said, “Can you put your fingers in?” He said, “It feels like a kiwi fruit.” Do you know what a kiwi fruit is?

 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Ashley: Like a little soft, hairy–

Meagan: Yep. 

Ashley: He’s like, “Well, maybe it’s a muscle though.” I’m like, “Oh, well maybe I’ve prolapsed.” This is what we’re thinking. I’m like, “Oh well, what will be what will be.” Of course, a kiwi fruit is a baby’s head. 

Meagan: A squished, fuzzy baby head. 

Ashley: We were so clueless. 

Meagan: I love that he said that it felt like a kiwi fruit. 

Ashley: He has no idea, like absolutely no idea but it’s so funny looking back at it now. Eventually, I knew. I started pushing and the doulas came running in. Everyone was excited and eventually, she was coming in and out and in and out, and then eventually, she came out. The doula said to my husband, “Don’t touch the baby. Move away from the baby. Don’t touch her.” I was like, “Why is she saying that? I’ve watched so many videos of babies being born and the mum’s encouraged to touch the baby’s head. What’s happening?” I’m thinking, “In breech birth, you’re not supposed to touch the baby.” I’m in my head again now. 

Meagan: Because people are talking. 

Ashley: People are talking. I’m feeling scared and I had no more contractions. I’ve completely talked myself out of contractions. I’m like, “There are no contractions.” And then her shoulders are out and her head was out. I’m like, “Okay, what do I do?” Because once that happens, the baby always comes out. I’m like, “Okay, well can you pull the baby out?” to my husband. He’s trying, but he doesn’t want to hurt the baby. He’s really soft. I’m like to my doulas, “Can you pull him?” “No, we don’t do that.” “Okay.” 

I’m just going to purple-push here because I don’t know what to do. I’m pushing, pushing, pushing and eventually, I’m going black in my visuals. 

Meagan: Pushing so hard in your head. 

Ashley: Yeah. Eventually, she pops out. It must have only been a minute or two, but in that time, they were yelling at me, “Push! Push!” I’m getting all of the things I didn’t want. Coached pushing and I could feel their energies because I’m empathic and one of the things I pick up the most are people’s feelings and energies. I know that everyone’s freaking out. Nobody knows any answers and I’m just like, “Oh my god.” 

She was born. She was happy and she came to me. I felt and I’m like, “Oh, it’s a girl. I thought it was a girl,” and then my doula comes racing around. She was like, “I think there’s a bit of labored breathing. I think you should call the ambulance.” I was like, “Okay. Well, just call the ambulance then.” The ambulance was called and they were there within a few minutes and then my doula said, “We think you should–” At this point, you have to understand from the birthing point of view, I’ve handed all of my power over to somebody else to make those choices for me because there were a few suggestions on birthing on positions throughout and I rolled my eyes and I was like, “I’ve got this. No one’s telling me what to do.” 

But because I handed over that power, and I think there is a place to have some collaboration, but I think that for me, I would have preferred if I had taken the full responsibility on, but for whatever reason, I had it in my head that that’s how it was going to go or that. It is the way it is and I accept that path, but I’ve certainly learned a lot of, “Ashley needs to take full responsibility next time,” but I don’t think that’s for everyone and I don’t think that women need to birth like that either. 

If we look at thousands of years before us, we’ve been birthing with wise women and that’s the whole reason I had the experienced person in my room with me, so I could rely on her experience and wisdom. It’s just a shame that some of those things unfolded the way they did, but she suggested that we cut the cord and my husband pick her up. As soon as that happened, she let out the biggest cry. I knew she was totally fine. 

Yeah, I was really happy that she was fine. I didn’t get to have the things that I really wanted to have like the golden hour and the crawl to the breast and things like that that is really sold in the home birth community of why you have a home birth. I was just so grateful to have my vaginal birth, but I know that other people like some of my clients– it is a little bit disappointing when you don’t get the thing that you want at the end. 

Meagan: Totally. 

Ashley: But then baby was cleaned and she was fine, but then what had happened was it was all attention on me. My doula was like, “Has the placenta come out? Can you stand up? Can you get the placenta out?” and things like that. There was a lot of blood in the pool. 

Meagan: Sometimes when it’s in the pool, it looks like a lot. 

Ashley: It does look like a lot and the other reason why I hired her was because she had experience with that whereas I didn’t have the experience. I know that a lot of free birth is transferred in from blood loss because they don’t have the experience of knowing what is normal or in water, it looks like a lot but it really is nothing. 

That’s a unique experience and that’s why it’s really important to have wise people with you if that’s what you want or feeling confident. Personally, I think it’s probably better to tap into yourself and listen to how you feel rather than sometimes what you are seeing because I know from experience, I can handle a lot more than some other people can, so what might be okay and acceptable for that birth– I’m a heavy bleeder for periods for example. Maybe my body works a little bit differently so I think tapping into that intuition and knowing how you feel. 

People know if they feel like crap or if they feel pretty good. But yes, then another ambulance was called and another ambulance and another ambulance. Yeah. I had this protocol that if I had lost a certain amount, they had to give me a bag of bloods before I came into hospital even though I live 5 or 7 minutes from the hospital. They were just waiting for this one ambulance to come that had my blood type on board. 

Then they had to give it to me and eventually, 2 hours later, we got to the hospital. By this point, I’m pretty much passing out. 

Meagan: So you were bleeding. 

Ashley: I was bleeding, but they called my doula to ask her how much blood loss there was. They didn’t ask the ambulance which, they were there and they saw, so I don’t really know how much blood I lost. I feel like I lost probably the same as I did with my second baby because that’s what they said that she said. My doula said, “I think she’s lost about 3 liters or 2 liters.” 

When I got into hospital, they were waiting for me. They were ready and straightaway, they tried to do the removal without any medication, just putting their hand up my vagina and trying to manually remove it which was very, very painful. It felt like a shovel going in and coming out. 

After three attempts, I said, “Stop. I do not consent to this.” She said, “Okay, fine.” I was screaming before that, but that doesn’t matter because all they listen to is the actual legal words, “I do not consent. I want to be put under. I want surgery. I want to do under.” I did not want to be awake for this. I knew after my last experience, I was just out. 

The anesthesiologist was like, “I can do that. I am more than happy to do that.” I was like, “Yes. That is amazing.” I was so happy that this one was willing to put me under and agreed that it was safe for me to do. I signed the waiver of what could happen. I could lose my uterus. I could have this or that. I woke up in the ICU. They said that because my blood pressure dropped so low, I think, because of the blood loss, I went into ICU. I think it’s standard practice to stay there for 12 hours and then if you do fine in that period of time, they then move you on to that room with a midwife for an hour, and then if you– I call it graduation– graduate that room, then I graduated that one and then I was just in maternity and I was treated like everyone else.

But this time, I was back at the first hospital sharing a room. This time, I was the hot gossip of the hospital because I’m the free birther who came in and had a vaginal birth on my own after how many surgeries. 

Meagan: All the things. 

Ashley: All the things. Big baby, high BMI, 99% of them were pretty supportive and then there were a few that were midwives who were like, “You were so lucky that you didn’t tear. You were so lucky this didn’t happen.” One went up to my husband and said, “Promise me. You tell me you will never do something silly like that again.” He was so shocked that this weird old lady came up to him and was telling us what we should be doing. He just looked at her and he said in his mind, “No, I’m not going to say anything back to her. I’m just going to let it go.” She had been spending the whole time bitching about her daughter so she was just one of those people about her future birth choices and mothering choices, so she wasn’t a lovely lady anyways.

But they went above and beyond to really support me and listen to me. I went along with some of their crazy things. They wanted to do all of these tests on me and stuff. The thing is, they’re very fearful. I said, “Can I just have another bag of blood? I’m really tired. I know from experience that this is going to happen again.” They said, “We’d better do all of these tests on you just to make sure because you could die tonight.” 

You could have a clot in your lungs, so I had a heart test and a lung test, and the fluids come through my body. I had all of the things done. It must have all come back good because they eventually said, “Okay, look. We’ll give you an iron transfusion.” I said as again, “Ashley knows what’s right for her body, right? But I’ll go along with your crazy tests,” which at the time was in the middle of the night. So at the time when I was supposed to be getting sleep, I’m getting wheeled across the hospital getting all of these tests to satisfy them. 

But I understand. They think that I am a crazy free birther so they were really worried about me because I didn’t get prenatal care even though I had two scans and blood tests throughout. I had all of the things that you pretty much do. Maybe I just didn’t have the blood pressure readings which is really interesting that they view that in such a way, and then my baby was in special care because my husband came in and it’s very common practice for them to take the baby for a home birther or a free birther. They always try and take that baby into special care because they don’t know what prenatal care the baby had. 

I didn’t know it at the time, but now that I’ve interviewed so many people on my podcast and I have spoken to people in the community, I realize it’s quite normal practice and they are legitimately very fearful for that baby. They are on the opposite side of the fence. They think that prenatal care is like, if you don’t have it, your baby is going to be deformed, but prenatal care is nothing. If anything, prenatal care for me was anxiety-driven, negative, and horrible. It’s just having a couple of scans and some bloodwork which is what I had during the time. 

She ended up going on CPAP because she had that labored breathing even though the ambulance said it was okay which led to eventually, she had mild jaundice which we consented to. She had antibiotics. 

Meagan: A lot of babies have jaundice. 

Ashley: Yeah. So I consented to her going under the lights. I regret some of the stuff. I didn’t know and so they don’t practice informed consent a lot of the time. They just are doing what they are doing with the babies. It was like, “Can I breastfeed my baby?” and I had to get myself to the special care unit and breastfeed my baby. I was running myself ragged trying to breastfeed. It was an interesting experience. I feel like this is the positive takeaway. 

It’s like, so you’ve done all of these things now. Now you can help so many more people because you’ve lived through all of these experiences and you understand how challenging it can be. Also, you can inform people. Now you know how to prepare yourself. My audience can prepare themselves for birth planning and special care planning. Also, how do you advocate if you end up in this situation? You can say no or yes. These are the things that they are probably going to recommend and that sort of thing. 

That’s the positive takeaway I take from that experience. I also feel like I really healed myself with the hospital itself on the second birth because they treated me with respect and they really wanted to– I felt like they actually cared about me. Some of them had a few tears and I thought, “Well, you are a human. That’s all I ever wanted. I just wanted you to listen to me and respect me. If you did that, I would come back and birth in this space.” 

Not now, but I would want to get in the birthing pool. If you respected me to do some of the things, then it would be a safe space for me, but if you’re going to be the opposite and you’re not going to be on my side, then I can’t feel safe with you. I understand their fear. I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about it from their point of view, but I think they need to spend some time thinking about it and seeing it from ours. 

So if they heard our stories and they really understood that it’s not just a baby’s life that matters, it’s the fact that this woman is going to carry this for the rest of her life and it’s going to shape her motherhood journey and it’s going to dictate the kind of person that she’s going to be in 10-20 years because some women can end up depressed. They could not look after their child. They can have bonding issues for years. 

Meagan: Even deeper. 

Ashley: Yeah. They don’t understand that when I say to them, “Healthy baby is not acceptable. I was always going to have a healthy baby, but you’ve done this to me.” They do not understand trauma and they do not understand the human-to-human connection. That’s not their field. That’s not what they signed up for and it’s not how they treat each other and it’s not how they’re treated. They’re run ragged in the hospital system and their culture is, “I’ve worked for 50 hours this week and I’m doing another two days.” It’s who is the biggest, strongest, and badass, who’s done the most surgeries on the most complicated people. That is their culture for a lot of them. 

It’s two competing things. I work with people and I care about hearts, humans, and stories. I care about how people feel and they are more masculine. They don’t care about how people feel. They care about people living and an outcome that they know that they are not going to get in trouble with their insurance. It’s really a shame on the insurance companies as well for supporting and encouraging that because they are the driving force. These people can’t practice without insurance and the only way they can feel safe is by doing surgeries on people which is more dangerous than vaginal birth. I don’t understand it, but that’s the driving force. 

It’s a pretty insidious culture to start with. 

Meagan: I just made a post the other day about a safe and healthy baby and mom. That’s all that matters, right? It’s so not right. It’s so wrong. Of course, everybody wants a healthy baby and a healthy mom. Of course, but there is so much more to it. I love that. I wish that we could somehow get in front of providers and say, “Listen to these people’s stories. Listen to how this experience affected them or what this did for them,” because like you said, they are driven in other ways. Yeah. They love and care for the patient the best they can and they want them to have a good, healthy baby and mom but they do. They have these blinders on and they sometimes look past the experience and what trauma. 

Sometimes it’s not even things being done, but things said or things not being done and being left alone. There’s so much. So much. 

Ashley: The thing that I’ve been grappling with lately is I did listen to an obstetrician who did start listening to Dr. Rachel Reed and she started to realize that some of the stuff she had been doing is actually traumatizing and hurting people and babies. Dr. Reed talks about this because she teaches midwives. It’s like, “This is how we were trained in hospital. This is how we were trained in university, but this is all wrong and this is why it’s all wrong because it’s based on this kind of birth. I have to take responsibility that I’ve caused harm when I thought I was helping.”

How do you take responsibility for that knowing that potentially hundreds of poor outcomes have happened that you’re responsible for? That alone is so heavy and in our society, people can’t deal with the smallest of things let alone that mammoth responsibility. We don’t even know how to deal with things. We’re not even allowed to feel things. Who are they going to turn to do even debrief without being dismissed or told, “No. You haven’t done anything wrong. You’re a doctor,” in our society? 

There are so many steps that need to happen. Even a few of them, this obstetrician is training other obstetricians and talking about it. They are going to listen to and respect her much more than a midwife. It’s just a stinky old midwife. When they say a witch, I see it in the newspapers. Hypnobirthing is all witchcraft or hocus pocus. The degrading things to try to bring it down as if it’s a mockery and nothing. “We’re doing medical science.” 

There are so many steps and so many things, but if you can get past that and work through that, then you’ve got to completely change how you practice and then you need to, at that point, change everything you do and how you practice. Then, you’re the black sheep in your establishment. You might go from the top surgeon to maybe you’re doing VBACs or you’re doing vaginal birth now and that’s weird. You’ve got to transform yourself. There are a lot of steps. It doesn’t mean that people can’t make small changes and people can’t make a positive impact because even just having a conversation and saying, “Look, you know what? I think you should go see this midwife.” 

You might be losing clients, but even in America for example with private people, you go, “I’m not really happy to take you on in my career, but I know a midwife,” and then that midwife sends their surgery people to you. I think you’d be better with a surgeon. This surgeon prefers doing this. They will do more medical. I will help you have a vaginal birth. There are some of those things that are small steps to start rather than, “I don’t agree with home birth. I don’t agree with midwife birth.” Explore and open your eyes. Obviously, those people aren’t listening to this podcast now, so that’s not really beneficial for them, but it’s just some thoughts that I’ve been having when I’m trying to think about the bigger picture, how can we make a change? 

I think of podcasts like this. You changed my life. It was the planting of a seed to opportunity and I know just from listening to a podcast, women say to me, “Oh, because of your podcast, I had my free birth.” I had this amazing birth and I’m healed. It was a positive thing and I didn’t have anyone calling CPS on me or telling me that this was going to happen. I’m so happy for you. It’s a labor-intensive thing to do a podcast. You know yourself. It is a labor-intensive thing, but if it’s a little piece of how we can help, I think your podcast paved the way for VBACs and really opened that space up. Now there are so many more resources out there and people supporting and doulas supporting in that space and knowing, so it really does make a difference. 

I know that we were discussing before that what the next level is and what we can do further which is exciting. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I’m obsessed with this podcast and can’t wait to relisten to it. You’re just a delight. I am so grateful for you being here and sharing your stories. You’ve been through a lot. You’ve been through a lot. You’ve learned a lot and you’ve come a long way. Here you are inspiring people, educating people, and helping people process and learn. If you wouldn’t mind, first of all, tell people where to find your podcast and your Instagram, and then share more of what you do and where they can find you. 

Ashley: Sure. I created my podcast when I was about 5 or 6 months pregnant. The reason I created it is because I wanted to listen to home birth stories. I was like, “I had a VBAC.” I listened to all of the stories and I was like, “No. Now I need home birth and free birth VBAC stories,” so it was a very selfish mission and then I was able to connect with people who I considered birth experts and I could ask more questions for my podcast but really for me. It’s called the VBAC Homebirth Stories Podcast and you can listen to it on all of the podcast players. 

My Instagram handle is @ashleylwinning and I’m sure you will link it anyways. I work with women virtually all over the world who are having home births and free births, usually women who are having second and third babies who have had traumatic experiences or Cesareans previously. Usually, the women connect with something about my story. They’ve got a special scar or have had a Cesarean before or something. Maybe they are a bigger woman or highly sensitive. My field is really working in high touch with my clients because, after my experience, I was like, “I really want other people to have the same support as me.” 

I hid behind the fact that I was weak. I wasn’t really embracing that about me. I am really starting to embrace that, you know what? Just because I value emotional support and connection doesn’t mean that I’m the only person in the world who needs that. Now I am connecting with so many highly emotional, highly sensitive women and empathic women who get really anxious in the mind. They overthink things so what we can do a lot of the time is overthink our choices. We are overthinking the things that are happening. We are overanalyzing and we’re overplanning and we’re procrastinating. We’re living in fear and sometimes that can spiral out of control where it completely consumes your life. 

You need to have someone that you know is safe to talk to about all of your fears deeply and that isn’t going to make you feel like an inconvenience is available for you all the time because a lot of doulas lack 24/7 support. 

Meagan: But don’t really call me. 

Ashley: Yeah and then you message them and it’s a week before they get back to you. You feel so unloved and unsupported. I really set boundaries with my clients and let them know that every Monday I’m going to message you so that they know every Monday. If you don’t get back to me, that’s cool. I know you’re a pregnant person. Don’t ever feel– my clients are also worried, “Oh, I didn’t get back to Ashley,” because they are highly sensitive. I say, “Don’t stress. I’m here to support you. Don’t worry about me. I’m looking out for myself. I’m here to look after you.” It’s having that high-touch support and connection. 

We do virtual sessions like we are talking here every fortnight and that’s a space to unload everything, all of your fears, all of your worries. We go through mindset stuff but also, I find that women talk about their partners getting on their nerves or their kids or motherhood stuff or work stuff, so we work on boundaries and mindset things and fear things. We going into the evidence. We go into physiological birth. It’s a whole mixture of motherhood. It’s a full circle of things and then we get them prepared for their postpartum too because I trained as a postpartum doula. I find that my clients, even though they’ve had a postpartum, they often lack the ability to reach out to their network because they are highly sensitive and say, “Can you please help me with this? Can you please help me with that? Can you look after my child?” 

I basically am supporting them as they grow the strength the way I was supported to really put myself out there and be vulnerable and create the life that I wanted. That’s what I see as the starting foundations of a woman truly being herself, loving herself, and advocating for the things that she wants. Eventually, I hope that she takes those skills and nurtures them to be the person that she wants to be and find some bliss and everything. 

Meagan: I love that. Such amazing things that you are doing. You are such an amazing resource. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Ashley: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.  

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Here at The VBAC Link, we often talk about how to VBAC with a big baby, but what about the tiny ones? 

When Eve received an IUGR diagnosis with her first baby, she was no longer able to birth at her desired birth center. A medically necessary induction occurred soon after which then led to one unwanted intervention after another. Finally, her baby boy was born via an emergency C-section and was admitted to the NICU.

Nothing about her first birth experience went as planned. 

Eve’s second baby was also measuring very small, but she was able to avoid an IUGR diagnosis. 

Everything about her second birth experience was different than the first…in all of the best ways!

Additional Links

Eve’s Website

Eve’s Instagram: @get.creative.wellness

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Good morning, everybody. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we are here today with our friend, Eve. She is amazing. All of you guys are amazing. We love you all and are excited to hear her story and a little bit more about what she does. I’m kind of excited to pick her brain a little bit about what she does as a profession. She is an art therapist and a mental health counselor. 

As you know, in the VBAC world, there is a lot of– well in the whole world, there is a lot of mental health. Mental health is a crisis. Eve, I don’t know if you would agree, but I feel like we are in a mental health crisis right now, and sometimes right after birth whether it be the birth that you wanted or not even that you wanted, with both, we can have struggles and we also know that through birth and postpartum and all of the things that mental health is a big, important factor. So I’m excited to talk more with her about that and of course to hear her share her story. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: We have a Review of the Week first and this is from Anne. She says, “These ladies are an absolute joy to listen to on their podcast. I feel so fortunate to have found them on my journey to what will hopefully be 2VBAC” which means a second VBAC “with twins.” That’s awesome.

“When I had my first VBAC, I felt educated as I had read through books and websites. Now, I feel empowered thanks to Julie and Meagan. I feel more confident advocating for myself and asking the right questions. I recommend you to all of the mamas I come across in the VBAC groups and often refer to specific episodes I’ve listened to. Thank you for all that you do, you women of strength you!”

I love that. I love that. That is something that we totally encourage. This podcast, although it’s VBAC-specific, can really benefit anybody listening to it. So a first-time mom can learn how to avoid the C-section, learn how to advocate for herself, learn how to find a supportive provider, all of these things for first, second, third time, and fourth-time moms. Whether you are a C-section mom or not, it’s going to benefit you. 

Eve’s stories 

Meagan: Okay, Eve. First off, I wanted to just say thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to be here with us and I also really want to dive into a little bit of what you do before we get into your story. Can you tell us a little bit more about art therapy? What is an art therapist? What do you do because you wrote a little bit in the form that you sent us and I was like, “Okay, this is awesome.” So share more with us. 

Eve: Sure. Thank you so much for having me first of all. This is such a privilege and I feel like this is the icing on the cake to my whole experience so just thank you. 

So as an art therapist and a counselor, I provide traditional talk therapy, but there is an extra spin on it because I invite the creative process into the work I do with my clients. So sometimes we have traumatic experiences as a lot of listeners have had and I myself have had, and sometimes that trauma makes it really difficult to speak about the things that happened to us to be able to move forward. 

That’s just one example of a reason why doing some of the creative could really help you to draw out some of those emotions and make it a little easier to speak about it or just to get some of that off of your chest by putting it out onto paper or making something out of clay or even through movement. There are a lot of different ways that creativity can be expressed, but for the things that are really challenging to speak on, the creative process can be really wonderful to help benefit clients. 

So what I do, my specialty is using the creative process one-on-one with clients, but I also have recently launched a new part of my program which is doing professional development with companies and also community groups who believe that they want to bring more self-care into their worlds. What I would do is I would come in, I’d do a mental health wellness piece, whatever feels relevant to that group, and then we will do a related art project and talk about how that went so that they can deepen the experience and learn a bit more about themselves and hopefully bring some of those tools into their lives for their own self-care on a regular basis.

Meagan: Wow, I love that. So you have a course. Did you create the course or is this a collaborative thing?

Eve: Yeah, it’s all me. This is something new that I’m just launching. I’m really excited to share it. I have done professional development in other ways and I wanted to bring my creativity and my passion for art therapy to the general population, so this is for people who are not just interested in therapy, but people who want to deepen their self-care and gain some more self-awareness and hopefully find some better ways to relax. 

Meagan: Gosh, I love that. That is so awesome. Do you mind plugging in your website? Will you tell everybody about your website? And then we’re going to have that in the show notes for you as well, listeners.

Eve: Sure. Absolutely, yep. It’s getcreativewellness.com and I will drop it into the chat right now so you can see it. 

Meagan: Awesome, awesome. And you are on Instagram as well, right? 

Eve: Yes, yes. 

Meagan: It’s @get.creative.wellness so definitely check her out. Awesome. Is there anything else you’d like to share about mental health?

Eve: No, just that it’s something that applies to everybody and not to let it go if you sense that something is off with you. Definitely follow your instinct and don’t let it go because the longer you let it go, the more it will take over your life and be harder to come out of. So it’s really important not to keep pushing through some of these mental health challenges that we have because sometimes it’s a lot more than just day-to-day stress and we really don’t want to let these things build up inside of us. It really affects all of the things that we do. 

I mean overall, I think that moms tend to put themselves last a lot and self-care is really not selfish. It’s really something that is necessary in order to be the best mothers and partners and daughters and all of the other roles.

Meagan: Person, the best person that you can be. You’ve got to be well-balanced. It’s okay if you’re unbalanced. That’s okay too. It happens. 

Eve: Exactly, yeah. 

Meagan: It’s okay to take charge of your care. So I love that message. 

Eve: Thank you. 

Meagan: Okay, well let’s dive into your story because you have a lot of things in your story as far as an induction that didn’t go as planned, IUGR (intrauterine growth restrictions), baby in the NICU, so you’ve got all of these little things that are unique, so I would love for you to share. 

Eve: Thanks. I was really excited to share my story because I’ve listened to so many episodes and I know I hear a lot of stories about big babies, so I’ve always listened and been like, “Are there any episodes on small babies?” because that has been my experience with both of my babies. 

They both were a little bit different, so I’m excited to share and hopefully, it will help some other people who might be experiencing something similar. 

All right, so I will start with my first pregnancy. My husband and I were married for about a year and we figured if we were going to start a family, we should probably get on that because I was 35 and we didn’t know what that journey might look like for us. So we figured we would give it a shot. We were fortunate to be pregnant very quickly. 

We said, “Okay. We’re really doing this now.” So we had planned for a natural birth at a birth center. I tend to be very natural and holistic-minded in everything I do in life, so that was a no-brainer for me that I really wanted an out-of-hospital birth if possible. I really never gave much consideration to other possibilities because I didn’t realize how often interventions are pushed and the frequency of other outcomes. I thought a C-section of a hospital transfer would only happen if I was in labor and something went wrong and we would have to go that route. I really didn’t think about any other ways that you might end up with a C-section. 

I thought that we were going to have this birth at the birth center. My pregnancy was fairly easy and comfortable. I took very good care of myself. I was eating well. I gained the right amount of weight that was recommended. I was doing chiropractic my entire pregnancy and also before that, I had been in chiropractic care for many years so I just continued with that through my pregnancy. I was exercising a lot, a lot of walking and doing some light weights and yoga. I was drinking red raspberry leaf tea. Just in general, I felt really great throughout, so I had no inkling of, “Oh, this is not going to happen for me.” 

We went for our anatomy scan at 19 weeks and there were some concerns with the size. I believe at the time, my son was measuring at about the 12th percentile. They also saw that I had complete placenta preva, so I was recommended to come back again to check in the 3rd trimester to make sure the previa had cleared and do another growth scan. I came back at 28 weeks and the previa had cleared, so I was good to go with that, and then I was also very thankful that the weight was now measuring around the 23rd percentile I believe, so I said, “Okay. We’re in the clear.” 

I didn’t have any more scans. At 40 weeks, I got to my 40-week appointment. I should mention that I still continued to feel great throughout. In fact, now looking back, maybe I felt a little too comfortable towards the end of my pregnancy but at 40 weeks, I was still pregnant, so I went to my appointment and I had a cervical check. I was hard and closed and the midwife there said, “There’s a strong chance that you’ll still be pregnant next week.” 

She said that I should go get my amniotic fluid levels checked. So I did that at 41 weeks. My fluid levels were fine and the blood flow to and from the placenta looked good. Everything was looking pretty good. However, the baby was measuring small. I had to go to a hospital to get these scans done since I was having my care at a birth center and they didn’t do these tests there. So the doctor at the hospital who read my scan recommended that I induce that day. They said, “Your baby is estimated at weighing 6 pounds, 13 ounces and that would be considered IUGR for a 41-week pregnancy.” 

But to me, I felt like, “Well, 6 pounds 13 ounces. I’m only 5’3”. My husband’s not that tall.” That probably sounded like a decent-sized baby for us to have. So I declined the induction and I called the midwives and they had me come in that day to the birth center. I remember being very awkward because the office was closing soon, so the lights were out in a lot of the office and they sort of took me into this one room that was still open. 

So already, it was kind of an eerie feeling just being there at that time of day. I think it was maybe 6:00 or so. They had me come in and do a non-stress test and a membrane sweep. They had three different people try to put in a Foley balloon, but they couldn’t get it in so that was really probably the first time that I started feeling like I was being experimented on because it was like all of these people trying to do this thing which was really vulnerable because I also never had that done to me before. 

But I was willing to try anything because I really didn’t want to be induced and I was still hoping at this point that I could deliver at the birth center. However, while I was getting my non-stress test and they were telling me, “Oh, everything is good,” they also dropped the ball on me that I was now considered high-risk with my pregnancy and I couldn’t deliver at the birth center because now my baby had this IUGR diagnosis. 

That was really difficult to accept because I was really pumped about having these natural childbirth classes and I was reading all of the books. 

Meagan: You were ready, yeah. 

Eve: I was ready. I was ready and I really believed wholeheartedly that this was the type of birth that I wanted and that this was going to be possible for me. I really had no thought in my mind that this was not going to happen to me. I felt like if I willed it, it would be so which I obviously realize now is foolish or maybe just naive, but I think that that’s a big part of my story is feeling like a failure because I didn’t get the things that I hoped for. 

I know that there were people along the way who questioned my choice to deliver at a birth center and the fact that I wanted everything to be natural and I had this feeling that people would say, “See? See? You can’t just go in and do that.” So I already was sort of feeling a bit like I failed because now I was going to have to deliver in a hospital. 

Part of me was also angry because I didn’t even know that they were going to be measuring the baby at that time. I thought I was just getting my amniotic fluid levels checked and I didn’t give consent to do any other testing and then they just came in and they were like, “The baby is measuring small.” So I was angry because I said, “Well, what if it’s wrong? What if the baby is really 7 pounds, 13 ounces?” 

With that being said, at this point, I was 41 weeks and I finally decided to stop working. I was working all throughout and I was showing up to work every day and people were saying, “Why are you still here? You’re still pregnant? Why are you still here?” That was also getting frustrating because I knew that the baby should be coming soon, but I was frustrated too, and to have people just point it out to me wasn’t really that helpful. 

So I decided to stop working and at that point, I was being pressured to be induced not in a harsh way, but I was getting a lot of phone calls daily from the midwives at the birth center saying, “Are you feeling anything? Do you think that anything’s happening?” I had to go for daily non-stress tests and I had all of them passed, but I felt very pressured to go into labor on my own to avoid the induction, so I told myself, “Well, at least if I have to have a hospital birth, if I could somehow get something going without an induction, maybe I could still have somewhat of a natural birth experience.” 

I had no education on this at all. This was not anything I had even considered, so now in the last week of my pregnancy, I was trying all of these natural induction methods so I was doing evening primrose oil and eating pineapple and walking a bunch even though I was already walking. I was just increasing that. I did acupuncture a couple of times. I had a couple of membrane sweeps and then the last thing that I tried was castor oil. 

That was very intense. I did have some mild contractions after taking the castor oil, but I think it was just because it was such a violent cleanse coming out both ways because then it sort of just tapered all off and didn’t turn into anything. 

I was getting frustrated about being encouraged to induce from my providers and even one of my family members was starting to turn in that direction. I was starting to question if I really was putting my baby at risk by staying pregnant. I agreed to induce at 41+6 and I just remember so clearly the feeling of walking into the hospital already clutching my pillow and feeling really defeated. Each step in the process felt like it was against what I wanted. 

I was in the hospital and every time there was an intervention proposed, I was asked if I wanted it, but I really didn’t know of any other choices and I didn’t feel good about any of the interventions that were proposed to me. I was just like, “I guess I have to go along. I don’t really think I have any other choice.” So I was very closed to the process overall and I do think that that really affected my recovery emotionally because I was so against it. I think being close-minded and wanting this really natural childbirth experience hindered me in a way because I was not open to anything else. 

There were a couple of things that were on my hopes and dreams list that I was able to do while at the hospital during this induction. They let me take a shower and I brought music and I brought some aromatherapy and some visual aids, but I didn’t use most of those things. The first thing that they did was they inserted Cervadil and two hours later, I remember I was talking with my husband and I started laughing and my water broke. I was like, “Oh, maybe something’s going to happen now.” I asked to wait an hour or so to see if anything would pick up because I had heard of people who once their water broke didn’t really need any other interventions and contractions just picked up on their own. 

That did not happen for me. After a couple of hours, they started me on a low dose of Pitocin. I remember at this point, I needed to be hooked up. Since I was now on Pitocin, I needed to be continually monitored. That was the first time where I really started to feel that I was being experimented on because I was hooked up and they didn’t have mobile monitoring at this hospital, so I had to stay tethered to the bed. I could only move about 5 feet from the bed. 

Meagan: That’s so hard when you’re already feeling like you’re an experiment and now you’re feeling stuck. 

Eve: Yeah, and also, until the very end of my pregnancy, I had a very comfortable pregnancy. I didn’t have any issues with high blood pressure or sugar issues. I felt really good, so I felt like I really didn’t want to be hooked up to things. I wanted to go to the bathroom, so I got up and I went to the bathroom. I unhooked myself and I remember one of the nurses came in and yelled at me and said, “What are you doing? You’re on Pitocin.” I was like, “I have legs and I want to use the bathroom. I don’t want to sit on this toilet right next to the bed.” So clearly, that was not allowed. 

I basically stayed in the bed the whole rest of the time. After about 18 hours of my water being broken and really no changes happening, I was barely dilating, I started leaking meconium. I think I might have had a mild fever. I’m a little fuzzy on it, but I think I was starting to have a fever too so when I was checked, I was only at about 3 centimeters, so the midwife who was there with me from the birth center recommended that we increase the Pitocin to try to deliver vaginally because we were really up against the clock. Those were her words. 

That made me feel very pressured and I was just like, “Okay. Well, I guess that’s my only choice, so okay. Let’s try it.” I agreed to get an epidural even though I was really scared and I really didn’t want it. The anesthesiologist came in and I remember she was very, very impatient. She had no empathy for the fact that I was unsure about wanting this and she said to me, “I have other people waiting, so I need you to make a decision.” So I was just like, “Okay. I guess I’ll do it.” 

I got the epidural. There were no issues actually placing it, but as soon as I laid back down and I started to go numb, I had a severe panic attack. I’m not really prone to panic attacks. I’ve definitely had some general anxiety and I have had some more mild panic attacks, but this was really, really bad. My teeth were chattering. I felt totally out of control and I had no feeling in my legs at all. There was one spot that didn’t take on the right side of my pelvis, so they were telling me, “Oh, you have to turn your body.” I’m like, “Well, I can’t move.” So they had to turn me. I just felt totally out of control and like I had no choices and I felt like everything just had gone from bad to worse by this point. 

Now they were like, “Okay, well we can’t start the Pitocin again because your heart rate is totally too high right now.” It took me about 45 minutes to finally get my heart rate to a normal level. I remember the midwife who was there came in and she started doing needlepoint right next to the bed. I remember at first being very annoyed by that, but then I was like, “Oh, I think I know what she’s doing,” because as an art therapist, I’m thinking, “Maybe she’s doing this to distract me because she wants me to be able to try to focus on something else.” So that’s what I did. I just sort of watched her. I watched her fingers as she was doing the needlepoint and that was what helped me to calm down. 

Finally, I said, “Okay. I’m ready. I feel calm. Let’s try putting the Pitocin back on.” So the nurses came in. They put it back on and then literally less than a minute afterward, the baby’s heart rate was not responding well. I don’t remember if it was going up or down, but it was not even a minute and they were like, “You’re coming in to have a C-section.” I will admit that in some ways because I knew the C-section was the last stop in the road, I felt relieved that there would not be any more interventions to try and fail or be coerced into without having enough information, but I also did not understand what would happen in a C-section besides that they cut you open and they take the baby out. I really had no idea what really happens in a C-section. 

So the same anesthesiologist comes into the room and it was just like a movie. She comes in and she goes, “I’m back.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? As if I already didn’t have ill feelings towards you from the first time.”

Meagan: Thank you for announcing. 

Eve: Yeah. And honestly, I have no idea if this is true, but I had this feeling that she made it so heavy because I felt so drugged, I could barely hold my eyes open or form sentences after that and while having the surgery, I felt that she was kind of like, “Oh, she’s a live one. Give her a high dose.” But who knows? So I also remember at the time before we went into the OR, someone came in from the NICU who I had never met. I don’t remember if it was a physician. I don’t know who it was, but somebody from the NICU who was on the team that would be working on the baby if it was necessary came in. I remember she was holding my hand and being really syrupy sweet and saying, “Don’t worry. I’ll take care of your baby.” I found it to be very inauthentic and annoying because I didn’t want to talk to her. I really just wanted peace for a few minutes and I wasn’t very welcoming of her support. I later did apologize to her for that, but the timing was not the best. 

I also felt like I could see through it. I felt like she was putting something on because I had never met this woman and she didn’t know me and here she was holding my hand really tight. I was like, “I didn’t really show you any signs that I needed my hand held right now.” 

So anyway, right before surgery, I’m laying on the table and my husband came in with me and the midwife was there next to me on the other side, so I did have their support. I remember not being able to form sentences and she said to me, “Don’t worry because sometimes people feel like they can’t breathe from the anesthesia.” I’m thinking, “I just had this massive panic attack and now you’re telling me that I might not be able to feel that I could breathe?” I tried to not let it get to me because I was like, “Well, here I am. I’m not going anywhere.” 

But what I did like is throughout each part of the C-section, the doctor explained what was happening. They said, “You might feel this here. You might feel a little tugging.” Every single thing that was happening they did tell me, so I felt that I was included a big in the process. But one thing I do remember was once they actually got to my son, the doctor said, “You made the right decision. This baby wasn’t coming out.” I didn’t know what that meant. That was the first time where I felt really the mom guilt like, “Did I keep him in too long? Should I have induced sooner?” type of thing. 

After he came out, he wasn’t crying yet and I was very drugged, so I really didn’t know what was going on. The midwife brought him around for a brief second before taking him off to the side where people were working on him. I’m assuming because they were pumping out all of the meconium. It felt like a very long time before we heard him cry. I remember thinking, “Oh, his cry sounds really cute,” even though I always hated the sound of babies crying before. I asked my husband, Mike, and I said, “Is he beautiful?” because like I said, I was really drugged. He didn’t really say anything because he wasn’t really sure what was happening. I could tell he was worried. Finally, the midwife brought him over to me and he was all wrapped up. I tried to hold him to my chest as best as I could and she said, “He’s doing well. We’re going to take him to the regular nursery” which meant to bring him to our room. 

I felt some relief that he was okay. He was born on the small side. He was 6 pounds, 7 ounces which might not sound super tiny, but he was also 21 inches long so he was very thin. After talking with other people after the fact, it sounds like his presentation was very typical for an IUGR baby because he had a very large head and his body was very skinny, so it’s like all of the weight and energy was going toward the brain and the areas that most needed it, so his body had lost all of that round fat, so he was very thin. I remember in his newborn pictures, you could see his ribs and that was another time when I felt some guilt like, “Did I cause this somehow?” That sort of thing. 

My mom and stepfather met us in recovery. My husband was the first one to spend time holding him because I really didn’t feel stable enough to hold him while being wheeled on a bed and then he was really only in the room with us for half a day because his temperature kept going down. So at one point, it had gone down to 92 degrees. He went to the nursery under the warmer a couple of times, but at the hospital where we were, apparently the third time that happens, they get sent to the NICU. After they had done the warmer a couple of times and it wasn’t working for very long, he went down to the NICU and we had so many tests run. Everything was coming back to normal. It seems like getting him to gain weight was really what was needed to get his temperature to stay in a healthy range. They were giving him a lot of formula and this was also not my plan because I wanted to exclusively breastfeed in the beginning and now he was being pumped full of all of this extra calorie formula, but I felt fine with that because I was like, “He needs to gain weight.” I didn’t really have milk coming in yet, so I just went with it. 

Shortly before he was discharged, I remember a NICU nurse who was there telling us that she was in the surgery. She said, “I thought for sure he would be going right to the NICU because he was covered in poop when he came out.” He was there for a week and during that time, it was really difficult to process because I was recovering from a C-section and we were in the hospital for most of that week as well, but I had a lot of disappointment and shock. I just felt very disconnected from my body. It was really hard to move and walk. I felt a lot of times like my body was just ripping in half where I had the incision if I moved the wrong way. It was just really challenging and frustrating. 

I also felt exhausted and very sad. I felt like I had no time to process what had happened at all. I just really felt like I got robbed of the birth experience in general. I felt like I really didn’t have the chance to experience any part of labor and that the birth experience I had hoped for was taken from me. I don’t feel that way now necessarily. I feel that certain parts could have been different, but I know that my son definitely needed some help and some extra support when he was born, so I’m accepting of that now. 

So the feeding schedule in the NICU was every 3 hours. We would go down. We would do a diaper change. We’d take his temperature. We’d feed him whatever breastmilk I had, then give him some formula, then we’d go back to our room. I would pump for 20 minutes to try to get some supply going and I would have a snack and then I would have people coming in and out of the room constantly all reminding me to eat and rest, but there was really no opportunity to be alone to do that, so it was very challenging to be on this really rigorous schedule after having surgery and trying to be there for my son but also not having a chance to emotionally process everything that had happened. 

The nurses really weren’t communicating well during changes of shifts about my medications and I was really just taking Motrin and Tylenol so it would wear off and I would be in a lot of pain because I wasn’t taking anything stronger than that, so I kept reminding them when I needed my medication and it was just very frustrating. So we spent 5 days in the hospital including Thanksgiving which was really sad because I was thankful that my son was there and that he was okay, but we also really didn’t know if he was going to be okay yet and so we had a lot of mixed feelings and it was hard to be alone in the hospital during that time. 

I should mention that this is before COVID by a few months, so it wasn’t that we were alone because of COVID. We were just alone because with him being in the NICU, a lot of visitors were not allowed. The nurses and doctors gave him great care. We learned a lot in that experience. We had a lot of help with breastfeeding. We learned how to change a diaper the right way and how to take his temperature. We got him on a sleep schedule right from the beginning so we did get some benefits from the NICU experience. But shortly before he was discharged, one of the nurses said, “He makes his needs known.” I remember he was one of the only full-time babies that were there and he had the loudest cry in there so I think they were ready to discharge him too because it was pretty quiet except for our son screaming, but I realized that comment that she made how fortunate we were to have a generally healthy, full-term baby who just needed to put on some weight to be able to take him home because I know a lot of families who experience the NICU have much greater challenges than what we went through, so I just want to mention that. 

He was long and skinny when he was born, but eventually, his growth did catch up after a few months and I worked really hard to build up my milk supply. Now, he is almost 3 and he’s smart and energetic and he just amazes me every day. 

I had a lot of guilt about my son’s beginning even though there was really nothing I could think of that I had done to cause it and that was hard to accept because I really wanted to have an answer. I knew I wanted some support around my recovery and I was really having trouble relating to the birth experiences of the people in my inner circle even though they were trying to be supportive because nobody really had an experience like mine. I Googled “C-section support group” and that was how I found The VBAC Link. 

Meagan: Oh, that’s awesome. 

Eve: Yeah, and I remember I was just back to work. I was about 3 months postpartum and I found the podcast. On one of my breaks, I started listening. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is exactly what I need. I need to hear people who have stories that I can relate to and get some inspiration from that,” because I knew that I didn’t want to have a similar experience if we had another child. 

I also started seeing a postpartum therapist in addition to listening to the VBAC Link. I was having some past trauma come up, so I knew that I needed some more formal therapy, so I was doing that as well. And then a little over a year later, our son was 14 months and we got pregnant again but we had an early pregnancy loss. We believe I was only about 7 weeks pregnant, so we decided to wait a while to try again and process that experience. We were working on some other goals at the time, so we figured, “Let’s put having another baby on hold for a little while,” because I felt like I really needed to process that and I didn’t want to rush into it. 

During that pregnancy that we lost, I had started care with a midwife in our area who people have called “The VBAC Whisperer” and I thought, “Oh, she’s going to be a great fit for me,” but when I had my pregnancy loss, she had no compassion and I remember when I called because I was bleeding and I said, “Should I be alarmed?” Because she sounded a little annoyed that I called and she goes, “I don’t know. Do you want me to tell you to be alarmed?” just like that. I was like, “Um.” I was thinking that I would like some education about what I could do or some possibilities. There was nothing constructive for me to try anything. 

So I swore that I would never work with her again and I ended up getting much more support around that loss from the midwives at the birth center where we had gone for our prenatal care with our son. Luckily, I still had other providers that I trusted that I could reach out to. That baby’s due date was estimated to be October 8th of 2021 and we found out we were pregnant again on October 6th, 2021 a couple of days before the baby we lost would have been born. It was very meaningful to me because it made me feel like somehow the loss made way for a new life. 

I just held that with me. It helped me to remember the loss in a more positive and meaningful way. So I started my care at the birth center even though I knew that I couldn’t continue there because they don’t accept VBAC clients, so I ended up moving on to care with a different midwife who I had never met or worked with previously and this midwife was VBAC supportive and very trauma-informed and was able to deliver my baby at a different hospital which I had heard was more VBAC supportive. 

I really liked this midwife because they kept it real with me about possibilities about what to expect in a hospital setting to help me prepare to go into this birth expecting to be in a hospital because I think like I said, I was thinking all along with my first pregnancy, “I’m going to be in a birth center. It’s going to be all-natural. It’s going to be like being in a bedroom.” I hadn’t even considered, “Well, what if I end up in a hospital?” so it was helpful for me to consider some other possibilities this time around. I was trying to be more realistic this time. 

I also hired a doula who was very comforting and nonjudgmental. She had two children with a similar age gap to what my children would have and so I felt that she could relate to some of my experiences and that was really nice. This pregnancy was very similar to the first one. Again, I did chiropractic throughout. I had minimal discomfort throughout the pregnancy until the third trimester for a couple of weeks, I did have some sharp pelvic pain which made walking and moving, and even lying down comfortably very difficult. I also had some digestive pain for a few days, so I was wearing a support band and I went to the chiropractor a little bit more during that time. I went to a pelvic floor specialist. 

Eventually, it did get better, so I was thankful that it got better because I was 37-38 weeks at that time, but luckily, it improved before I was at the very end of my pregnancy. 

So at one point, I thought, “Maybe I’ll deliver before my due date this time,” because I was having that discomfort, but then my due date came and went and I started asking my midwife more questions about what an induction might look like because that was really what I most feared and I wanted to have more information this time so that I could prepare. I feel much more comforted when I have more information. 

I was really worried about the cascade of interventions happening again and going into the process in a similar way as I did with my first birth. This midwife that I was working with said that they would be comfortable with me going to 41+5 or 6 before inducing as long as everything was looking good, so I might have to go in for a non-stress test again or something like that. 

Because my son was an IUGR pregnancy, my third trimester, I was being monitored more closely this time and we wanted to make sure that we didn’t miss anything because we didn’t have the IUGR diagnosis until 41 weeks and that really, I think, made it difficult to prepare. I had more ultrasounds at the hospital where I was going to deliver and at 32 weeks, we had a scan that looked like we might have another IUGR diagnosis. Her abdominal circumference was between 10-11% and once you get below 10%, that’s considered IUGR. 

So now, I had to keep going for more scans because of that. The doctor who read my scan at the hospital came in and warned me that with IUGR, they recommended delivering by 39 weeks which, of course, made me nervous because I had gone to 42 weeks without labor the first time. I wondered whether I’d be able to have the experience of labor at all since this would likely be my last child and I was 38 years old. I wasn’t really planning to have more than two children. I really just wanted to have some experience in labor. 

When I told her of my hopes for a VBAC and my preference not to induce, the doctor said to me, “Look, as someone who has done it three times, it’s not all that.” I remember being like, “Oh my gosh, lady. That’s great for you to say, but you’ve had three vaginal births so you obviously don’t know. You don’t know what it’s like to not experience it.” She had no sense of how that could be a loss. She didn’t know that could also be a loss. The birth experience can be mourned as well. 

I actually considered not having another scan because I wanted to avoid everything that had happened with my first pregnancy and I still had it in my mind, “The numbers could be wrong.” It was causing me so much stress. Ultimately, I did decide that I wanted more information so that if we did end up with an IUGR diagnosis, I would have more data to decide on the next steps and have time to accept a change of plans this time if I needed to. 

Luckily, we went back at 36 weeks and her growth had improved and now the abdominal circumference was about 23%. So now, we just were going to wait and she was just considered constitutionally small, so I did not have the IUGR diagnosis with her. I started taking red raspberry leaf. 

Meagan: That’s so awesome. 

Eve: Yeah. So I started taking red raspberry leaf tea again. I decided to stop working at 38 weeks this time, so I already had some time on my hands to just be pregnant and relax and do things that I needed to do. So as I was getting to 41 weeks, I started to feel like I was on the clock and I was pressured to make something happen to avoid another induction. That was my own pressure. Nobody was putting pressure on me, but it was in my own mind. So at 41 weeks, I went for acupuncture and I felt a lot of movement. My midwife never pushed cervical checks, but when I was there, I asked, “Is there anything that we can do to get this moving?” My midwife said, “Well, we can do a cervical check and a sweep,” so I decided to do that. 

I was 2 centimeters and 80% effaced at 41+1. I was shocked and very excited because I hadn’t had anything. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. 

Eve: Yeah, something’s happening. So I had this membrane sweep and then that night around 8:00, I started having sharp cramps. They were about 10 seconds long and they were coming every 3-5 minutes. My doula advised me to rest and hydrate, so I tried to do that. I was lying on the floor with the lights dim and my birth ball, but I asked my husband to stay up with me because I was starting to need some support with the contractions.

I wasn’t sure if I was in labor, but I asked my mom to come anyway because she lives about an hour and a half away and our plan was for her to stay with our son while we went to the hospital. She got there at 1:30 in the morning and I had these contractions that were not really following a pattern yet. The next morning, our son got up around 6 and my mom and my husband were taking turns watching him and then giving me counterpressure. They were sort of going back and forth. 

Since I hadn’t been in labor before, I didn’t call the doula to come because I was expecting that I still had a while to go. I was coping fairly well just with them, so I said, “Why don’t we just ride it out a little longer?” And then my contractions started spacing out, so I asked my husband who had gone to the park with my son to come home. This was around close to 10 in the morning. At 9:30 or 10 in the morning, I asked him to come back because my contractions started picking up again once they had left. I think my body was having trouble focusing when my son was there and wanting me and needing me, and then once they left the house, everything picked up and started to get much stronger. 

So of course, our bags weren’t packed and it took us a while to get out of the house. We get in the car and now my contractions are 3 minutes apart in the car. I was putting my left fist behind my low back and gripping the handle above the window with my right hand and doing horsey layups and moaning really loudly. I don’t know how my husband was even able to drive throughout all of that, but luckily, there was no traffic and it was 25 minutes to get there. 

We got to the hospital. It was 12:40 PM. We left the car on with the hazard lights in front of the hospital and of course, my husband’s bag dropped with everything in it in front of the hospital. We get in there and immediately, they obviously realized I needed help so they put me in a wheelchair and we rushed to triage. Our midwife met us there and I couldn’t even lie down to be checked because my contractions were so close together. I really felt like I needed to bend over and get counterpressure. 

My midwife was like, “You’re obviously staying. Let’s get you in a room.” I got in there and they were trying to put the monitor on me. The nurse in there, as they were having trouble getting the monitor on, says to me, “I really need you to get this monitor on because of the great risk you’re taking of uterine rupture.” I was, at this point, so in the zone getting through the contractions that I was like, “I can’t let this get to me.” I was just too busy trying to cope, so I just silently rolled my eyes. My husband and the midwife were both like, “Okay. Lay off.”

At this point, I still hadn’t gotten a gown on or anything. I basically just stripped everything off to get on the monitor and I just stayed naked the entire time because I had no modesty at this point. Eventually, we got the monitor going and I started feeling pushy almost immediately after that.

I realized we never told the doula to meet us, so my husband texted her to come. She got there as I was pushing. We tried a few different positions and at some point, it started to be clear that it wasn’t effective. I wasn’t really, I guess, pushing effectively. I remember the midwife saying, “I’m going to give you some help so that this baby doesn’t need any NICU time. I’m going to put my fingers inside you and I want you to push to where you feel them.” I did that a couple of times and I was able to feel my daughter’s head which was really awesome. Then I pushed again one more time the same way and she was out. 

It was just so awesome and shocking that it actually happened. I pulled her to my chest and it was just amazing. Like I said, she did not have IUGR. 

Meagan: I was going to say, how big was she? I was just curious. 

Eve: She ended up being actually smaller than my son. She was 6 pounds, 4 ounces and she was almost 20 inches long. She was in the 5th percentile for weight, but overall she was healthy and so I will say that the difference was when she was born, she was considered SGA which is small for gestational age, but her presentation was different. She was more proportionate. It was just interesting how you could have a baby weighing less and be almost the same length, but very different. 

Meagan: But not have that diagnosis, yeah. My baby was 6,2. 

Eve: Oh wow. 

Meagan: Yeah, but she was 18 inches. 

Eve: Yeah, so it puts it in perspective, right? 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Eve: I will have to say, my husband was so amazing the entire time. He stayed calm. He advocated for me. He believed in me. There were times during my pregnancy that I got annoyed because I felt like he didn’t understand how difficult this could be to actually have a vaginal delivery after having a C-section because he sort of was of the mindset, “Well, this is how it’s supposed to happen.” I was like, “Well, that’s what I thought the first time.”

So I felt like I wasn’t getting through to him, but I do feel like that mindset that he had really helped to normalize the process in that he could stay positive when I was doubtful. And during the contractions, we basically labored at home the entire time. She was born two hours after we got to the hospital. When they finally checked me after I started pushing, I was like, “Maybe this isn’t working because I’m not really fully dilated,” and the midwife was like, “Well, I never really got to check you.” But I was complete. I was complete so it was time to push. 

But one thing that I think helped me cope for as long as we did while we were home was my husband kept reminding me, “You really only have to get through the first 30 seconds and then it starts to ease.” So each contraction, we would have the build-up, and then once we were halfway through, it was like, “Okay. Now you’re downhill.” I think having that mentality really helped me to stay with it and be able to cope for so long at home without going to the hospital or even having the doula present. 

But like I said, since I was never in labor, I was thinking, “Well, we might get to the hospital and I’ll be 7 centimeters and I’ll still have a little ways to go,” or even 5 or 4. Who knows? So it was really a shock that we got in. 

The last thing that I want to share about this experience is that during this whole time, I wasn’t even thinking about how long it would take me to push her out. I was just trying to push. I had never done this before. The midwife did share with me because I asked about the urgency, “Why did we need to get the baby out so soon once she was coming out when you needed to help me?” The midwife said, “Well, they were getting ready to use a vacuum because the baby’s heart rate was starting to not recover as well after each contraction.” I guess since I was complete and pushing for about an hour, for some reason, I guess they thought the baby maybe had been in the canal far down enough where she should have been out sooner or they thought I would be able to push her out sooner and because it was taking so long, her heart was having trouble recovering. 

I’m glad that nobody told that to me in the actual experience. It was scary. It was scary and I told my midwife I was scared before I started pushing and they said, “You’re safe.” I remember feeling, “You’re right. I have these people around me. I have you. I have my husband. I have my doula,” and I had people around me to support that process and I’m grateful that this birth experience and that this hospital was very different than the first experience because after my daughter was born, I just remember feeling, “We did this. We did this together.” Me, my baby, and my husband, this was a team effort. 

The nurses really just let us be. We had all of this time alone in the room with her and it was just so special. Even though we were in a hospital, it really was as good as it could have been. We got to go home the very next day, so it was a night and day experience hospital-wise, birth-wise, recovery-wise, and now after having this birth experience, it’s really helped me to make peace with my first birth experience and I don’t really see that as a failure anymore. I just see it as a different birth story. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. There is no failing at birth. We often times label ourselves as that failure, but it’s because of the way the world creates that word failure. They place it into our minds and they say that word and it’s like, “Oh, well if this doesn’t happen, then you failed.” It’s just not true, so I love that you have come around to say, “Okay. I didn’t fail. That was just a different birth experience.”

Eve: Right. Right, and I’m grateful that I’ve had both experiences now because I do have two beautiful, healthy children and they arrived in two very unique ways even though I had similar pregnancies and similar questions throughout both pregnancies, the way they arrived was very different and I feel like I learned so much from them. I hope that my story can help other people who might have experienced something similar. 

Meagan: I love it so much. Thank you so much for being with us today. Like you said, being on the opposite end of a big baby with a small baby. A small baby can be a quote-on-quote “concern” or problem if you want to say from a provider’s standpoint. They can view things differently, so yeah. It’s fun and unique to have the opposite end of things. Thank you so much again and congratulations to your cute two babies, to both of your babies. Thank you again. 

Eve: Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you so much for having me. It’s really been a true pleasure. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.  

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*Trigger Warning: This episode contains sensitive discussion topics including infant loss, miscarriage, preterm delivery, and hemorrhaging.*

Lizzy has a passion for all things birth and babies as reflected in her amazing 10 kiddos! Her birth stories in order are as follows: an emergency C-section, VBAC, RCS, VBAC, HBAC, VBAC, HBAC, RCS, and a twin RCS. 

Though Lizzy has chosen to birth differently than most, she has always made sure to do what her intuition has felt is best and what she and her husband felt was right for their family. Through the highs and lows, every decision was made from a place of peace, not fear. 

We want all women to feel confident in the birth decisions they make. The VBAC Link is here to provide you with the education and resources to do just that!

Additional Links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Hello, hello. This is still 2023. I cannot believe it. I am sitting here right now recording and we’re just getting into the holiday season thinking that this is going to be airing in 2023 and it’s just crazy to me. I cannot believe that 2023 is here. 

Today, we have quite the stories for you. And guess what? We have a special cohost and it’s Paige, our transcriber, and a dear VBAC Link family member. So excited to have you with us, Paige. This story is even close to your heart because this is your family. 

Paige: Yes, this is my sister-in-law, Lizzy. 

Meagan: Yes, so exciting. You guys, I can’t even tell you. I’m sitting here looking at her notes right here and she has so many stories and they’re all different like, crazy, crazy different. But Paige is going to do the review and then we’ll get started.

Review of the Week

Paige: Yes, I am. So my review comes from an email sent to us just a few days ago which is so exciting. It’s from molly and she says, “Hi there. My name is Molly Marshall and I just wanted to reach out and send a review of the pod. I’ve been listening for quite some time now since I had my first baby in August of 2020 via C-section. It was absolutely the opposite experience that I was expecting to have mixed with a scary pandemic. 

“After that, I began listening to your podcast just to hear other women’s stories who had gone through similar experiences. This made me feel a lot less alone. Once we decided to try for a second baby, I began listening to the pod even more frequently on top of lots of other research and such. Just last week, on Wednesday, I welcomed my second baby boy via successful VBAC. I give so much credit to your podcast and what you’re doing because it was the driving force and motivator for me to push for my VBAC and I’m so, so glad I did. It was truly a redemption story and I’m so thankful for the work you’re doing. I told so many people about the podcast and I hope to be able to help any friends of mine explore VBAC too if they desire. Please don’t stop sharing these stories. It means the absolute world to those of us listening. 

After my second birth, I just want to scream it from the rooftops that VBAC is totally possible even if feels overwhelming and out of reach. Needless to say, I love your podcast and you’ve changed my life. Thank you so much. 

-Molly” 

Meagan: Oh. When I saw this review come in, I got teary-eyed. I really got teary-eyed. It meant so much and I’m so happy for her and so happy for everyone who’s listening. Even if it doesn’t end in a VBAC or even if that decision through listening to the podcast isn’t to go for a VBAC, if there’s any just even slight, one tiny little thing that The VBAC Link can bring to you whether it’s empowerment, education, whether it’s processing something through learning, whatever it is, that just warms my heart so to hear that review, I love it. Thank you so much, Molly. 

As always, we’re always accepting more reviews to read on the podcast. You can really submit it anyway. She submitted it through an email. You can send it to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or you can go to Google or you can go to Facebook or just send us a message on Instagram. Whatever it may be, we love your reviews. I seriously, I’m not kidding. I wish I could have had– you know the Taylor Swift TikTok thing where the mom is dancing and the kid is recording but it’s really recording them? I wish I could have had that because I wish I could really portray the emotion that I was feeling reading this review. 

Paige: So sweet. 

Meagan: Oh, it was amazing. So thank you so much. 

Lizzy’s Stories

Meagan: Hello, hello VBAC listeners. This is Meagan here. I just wanted to drop a quick trigger warning in today’s episode. It does contain some details and verbiage that may be triggering or alarming to the listening ear. 

Okay, Lizzy. 

Lizzy: Hi. 

Meagan: Hi. Thank you so much for being with us today. I cannot wait to hear about all of your incredible births. And you guys, when I say all, I want to say that she has 10 kids. 10 kiddos. Isn’t that amazing? I love it so much. I love being a mom. I don’t know if I could do it with 10 kids. It takes a special person, Lizzy. You are incredible and I can’t wait to hear about all of these births. 

Lizzy: Thank you. Perfect. Well, I guess I’ll just start from the beginning. I had my first baby in December 2011 and I was horribly uneducated. I didn’t even know what the birth process looked like or anything really. My husband is the oldest of 9 kids and his mom is very pro-natural birth. She had her last two babies at home with only her and her husband there and so my husband was very pro-natural birth, but we were still newly married and trying to figure out how to talk to each other. You know, have communication. 

So I was about 10 days overdue with my first baby. I went into a doctor’s appointment and they were like, “Yeah, everything looks good but do you want to be induced? Usually, by now, women are begging me to get the baby out of them.” I was content and pretty happy, but I was like, “Oh. I guess meeting my baby might be a really cool thing,” so I was like, “Sure, let’s do this.” I wanted it to be a little less invasive, but like I said, I wasn’t super educated. My husband was like, “Maybe we should try to do as little as possible.” I was like, “Okay.” 

So we checked into the hospital the next day and they broke my water which, I remember it’s like a legitimate crochet hook. They came in and opened the package and I was like, “That’s a crochet hook.” They’re like, “Um, it’s a medical instrument.” I was like, “No, it’s not. That is just a crochet hook from JoAnn’s.” But anyways, so they broke my water, and then I just chilled for lots of hours and didn’t have any labor. Nothing happened. 

So then they came in and they were like, “We’re going to put you on some Pitocin to see if we can get things moving.” So they put me on Pitocin and every time I had a contraction, his heart rate started to drop. So then they got really nervous understandably and it had been lots of hours since they had broken my water and they were worried about infection. It was just the classic cascade of interventions, so we ended up doing an emergency C-section. 

It turns out, well, this is what we assume. I wasn’t actually in the womb to know what was happening, but he had this huge dent on his forehead like he wasn’t lined up in the birth canal right like his forehead just kept getting caught on my pelvis. But he was 10 pounds, 11 ounces and he was just this big baby. Then that was his birth. I had been told that nursing counted as birth control which is not true. Anyone listening, that is such a lie. 

Meagan: But so many people think that though. Just FYI, they really do. You’re not alone out there. 

Lizzy: Right? So 3 months later, I was pregnant again. I remember it had been 3 months. I turned to my husband and I was like, “Did I have a period this month?” He was like, “I don’t know.” 

And then I took a pregnancy test and I was pregnant. I was like, “Oh, there we go.” That’s when I really started getting into VBACs and birthing and getting educated. I gained a lot of weight with my first pregnancy like 40-50 pounds. So with my second pregnancy, I followed the gestational diabetes diet because when I tested, I wasn’t officially gestational diabetic, but I was right on the border, so I was like, “Maybe there’s a margin of error and I probably am.” 

So I followed the diet and I maybe moderately exercised, but probably not. Mostly just dieted. And then I went into labor on my– oh no, that’s right. Sorry, I have to remember. There are a lot of stories. 

Meagan: There are so many, yeah. 

Lizzy: I also did HypnoBabies last minute because I was like, “Wait a minute. I want to do this VBAC, but I have no education really.” And so I started listening to HypnoBabies and going through that whole program. Then one day, I decided to walk home from church because I was so sick and tired of having this baby in me. I was, I think, a few days overdue. For some reason, we had expected him to come early, but he just wasn’t. So I powerwalked as fast as I possibly could for half a mile, three-quarters of a mile until I was so sore, I almost couldn’t walk anymore. 

I got home and I contracted a little bit, and then it all petered out and I went to bed. I woke up the next morning and just was contracting throughout the day, just gradually building. It was the perfect labor story kind of and then that night, I was like, “Okay. It’s time to go to the hospital.” We actually called my mother-in-law to come down because we wanted her to help us labor because she was so pro-birth and we just wanted an extra person in our court. 

My husband was so supportive. We were laboring and it just was going. Every time, I was like, “This is awful. Give me an epidural,” my husband was like, “No. It’s okay. We can do this. Just keep breathing. One more contraction and then just face the next contraction.” We really worked through it together and it was a really beautiful experience. 

My mother-in-law was really awesome. My husband was sitting on a rolling stool while I contracted and every time I contracted, I basically just headbutted him on that rolling stool. He was trying really hard to give me counterpressure, but that’s really hard on a rolling stool, so my mother-in-law just stood behind him and braced him the whole time. She didn’t say anything. She just was there making sure the process could continue and it was so wonderful for my husband and I to do this really hard thing together. It was so bonding and beautiful for us that that’s part of what we love most about vaginal birthing is just the relationship builder it is to be able to go through something so hard and painful together and do that. 

And then he came out. It was a VBAC and he was 8 pounds, 2 ounces. His was just the classic, what you read about in a textbook how a baby is born vaginally. That was awesome and we were so excited about that. We had done it and there was all of this joy and it was so happy. I healed faster and I felt better. 

And then I had a miscarriage pretty early on, I think 6-8 weeks. Right after the miscarriage, I got pregnant. I did not watch my diet. I did not exercise. I gained a lot of weight and finally, I was two weeks overdue. Actually, I was a week overdue and they were like, “Hey, maybe we should think about doing something.” I was like, “No.” I was seeing midwives and I was like, “I need to give it the whole two weeks. I have to know that if I wouldn’t have waited a little bit longer, if it wouldn’t have just happened.” I really pushed them all the way to the two weeks and then I just never went into labor.

Actually, that’s not true. A few days before, I had hard labor for 3-4 hours and then stopped and nothing else. Except for those couple of hours, nothing had happened. I felt nothing. Finally, I went in and we did a planned C-section. She was 10 pounds, 14 ounces. I think my body was just like, “Um, friend? I’m not sure I can do this. This is a really big baby.”

There was that and then on my fourth baby, I learned my lesson and I went back to my diet and my exercising. I went into labor on my own and went to the hospital. I’m a very vocal laborer. I yell and I moan and I say mean things about the baby when I’m in transition. My midwife was getting really nervous because she had never seen me labor. She had been there for my C-section baby, but she had never seen me in active labor. She kept turning to my husband and saying, “Is this normal? Is she having a uterine rupture? How do I know what this pain level is?” My husband was like, “No, no. She’s okay. This is just how she does it.” But she was super nervous. 

She kept pushing me to try different positions and it wasn’t my favorite birth. She ended up having me lie on my side with one knee pulled up high to deliver the baby and I just didn’t love that position. It wasn’t terribly comfortable, but the baby came out and we had a VBAC and everything was happy. That was awesome. 

And then my next pregnancy was a set of twins. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage and I bled a lot. I would wake up regularly in the morning with blood stains the size of cereal boxes on my bed. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Lizzy: I would call my provider and be like, “Hey, I’m bleeding,” and they were like, “Well, as long as you don’t have any cramping, you’re fine. Bleeding’s okay. Cramping is bad so when the two of them happen together, call us.” But I just was bleeding so much and it was so weird. I remember just feeling like these babies were going to come early. I just had this feeling. I remember counting down to viability because I was like, “Oh good. At least now, I know they can make it if I deliver.”

A few days before they were born, I started passing really big clots, and then a few days later– oh, and I had gone into labor and so I went into the hospital, and by the time I got checked in and lay down and had all the cords hooked up, they were like, “You’re not in labor anymore.” I felt like an idiot because I was like, “I’ve already had four kids. I know what labor is,” but they were like, “Make sure you’ve labored for at least an hour with strong contractions before you come back in.”

I felt very patronized and patted on the head and sent back to bed. I just felt humiliated. I went home and I was like, “That’s it. I’m not going back unless it happens for two hours because I’m not doing that again.” Getting sent home from the hospital is the worst thing ever. It’s happened to me a couple of times and I just hate it. 

So then a few days later, I started going into labor again. I was like, “Okay.” So I drank lots of water. I lay down on my left side. I took a shower. My husband was trying to get our kids in bed because we had four other kids and they must have known something was up because they were being awful and super rowdy. So finally, we just locked them in their rooms. My husband came to check on me and I was still laboring. I was like, “You know what? It’s been two hours. I think we should go.” 

It was actually funny. I remember going to him after about an hour of labor and being like, “Ugh, I just don’t like this baby anymore. This hurts so bad. I don’t want to do this anymore.” He chuckled and said, “Haha, it sounds like you’re in transition.” We both laughed and then I went back to my room and kept laboring because, in my mind, there was no way you could have a baby in two hours. It just wasn’t possible. 

I went back to my room and he finished up with the kids and then I was like, “Okay. It’s time to go to the hospital.” So we called our babysitters which were these three little girls that lived across the street, these sisters that were 9, 8, and 7. They came over and they were sitting in the front room. I was like, “Okay. I need to go to the bathroom. I think I’m having some gas cramps. I’m going to see if I can work something out.” 

My husband knew because the same thing had happened to his mom when she felt like she needed to go to the bathroom and had a baby. He was like, “Wait. I know what this means,” so he followed me, and all of a sudden, I was like, “This is not right.” I started pushing and I was like, “Oh my goodness, something is coming out of me. Honey, what is happening?”

I stood up and the baby fell out. My husband just caught him right before he hit the water.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Lizzy: But I was 23 weeks and 6 days. So he was a pound and a half. His entire body fit in my husband’s hand. His head was the size of a clementine. He was just so little. I remember my husband laid down– 

Meagan: Way preterm. Way preterm. 

Lizzy: Way too early. I remember he laid me down in the shower and put the baby on my lap. We just all of a sudden were like, “Okay. What do we do now?” He was moving and it looked like he was grunting, but we couldn’t really tell if he was breathing or not so we called 911. The amazing thing was as we were figuring out what to do, we just felt so peaceful. We’re very religious and we just felt like God was like, “It’s okay. It’s okay. Now you should call an ambulance.” 

Meagan: Wow, I’d be like, “Ahh!”

Lizzy: I know and that’s what I expected, but we both took a deep breath and were like, “Okay, now let’s call 911. We can do this.” So we called them and the paramedics get here. We’ve totally forgotten about our babysitters so these paramedics just come in through the front door. These little girls are like, “Um, what’s going on?” They come back to our bedroom and it seemed like it took them forever for me to get on the stretcher and out to the ambulance. I think they were waiting to see if I was going to deliver my other baby because twins usually come pretty fast in succession. 

I remember laying there being like, “Why aren’t you taking me? Why are we just sitting here? My baby is maybe not breathing. Can we get a move-on here?” But as soon as I got my first twin out, twin A out, my body just stopped. I don’t know. It just didn’t need to contract anymore. It was like it just turned off. They got me in the ambulance. There was a hospital just a couple of blocks from our house, but it was a very small hospital. I think they had a NICU, but it was for 37-week babies who needed help with breathing. It was not well-equipped for this situation. 

They took me to the OR. They cut the cord and whisked twin A off and tried to get him breathing. It ended up taking about an hour to get him oxygen because they didn’t have any neonatologists there. They just had pediatricians. So he was on the phone with the neonatologist trying to figure out how to intubate this pound-and-a-half baby. 

Meagan: Holy cow. So baby was breathing, but not well, not enough.

Lizzy: Yes, that’s my memory. 

Meagan: So they had to really help this baby’s undeveloped lungs to breathe and give baby oxygen. 

Lizzy: Yeah. He was not going to survive on his own. He was not going to make it without intubation. But then I never delivered the placenta so they just sanitized the part of the cord that was hanging out and shoved it back in.

Meagan: What! 

Lizzy: They wanted to keep the other baby in as long as possible, so they didn’t want to induce labor to get the placenta out. They were like, “You know what? We’re just going to put this back in and see what happens,” because everyone figured that probably within 24 hours, I was having my other baby. They gave me all of the shots. The magnesium, the steroids, and everything. Magnesium is awful. My whole body felt like I was on fire, from the inside out burning. I don’t like magnesium, but I understand its purpose. 

Meagan: Yeah, it has a purpose, but it definitely makes you feel crummy. 

Lizzy: Yeah. So then they transferred me to a different hospital and they just watched me. They were like, “Okay.” It had been 24 hours and I hadn’t had the baby and they were like, “Well, I guess we’re just going to check you into–” I think it was labor and delivery and they were like, “You’re just going to chill here until you have a baby.” 

Meagan: Just curious, so they didn’t transfer you, right? 

Lizzy: They did after. 

Meagan: For baby number two, they transferred you to a better hospital. 

Lizzy: Yes. Once they had me stabilized and realized that I wasn’t having another baby in the time it took to get to the hospital, they sent me. They transferred me. 

Meagan: Let’s get you to a place that can handle a 23-week birth. 

Lizzy: A micro-preemie, yeah. And as soon as they had Cayden, twin A, stabilized and had him intubated, they transferred him too by life flight because they couldn’t help him there. 

Meagan: Okay, gotcha. 

Lizzy: So then, I was in the hospital for 11 days before I delivered my second twin. 

Paige: With four kids at home. 

Lizzy: Yeah. My husband was working and trying to play mom to four kids. He definitely had the hard job. I mean, I was sitting in that hospital room for 11 days making homemade thank-you cards and making jewelry and I was like, “This is amazing. This is like a mom-cation. This is awesome.” I’d go sit and look at my baby. I mean, it was a little scary, but it honestly was really relaxing. I felt so bad for my husband because he was doing everything and was holding it together really well considering everything he had to do. 

Paige: And it was over Thanksgiving so we all came and visited you. 

Lizzy: That’s right. It was Thanksgiving. 

Paige: I remember visiting Cayden and his body was just so translucent, so tiny. But yeah, that waiting place. 

Meagan: Wow, wow. 

Lizzy: Yeah. And so then 11 days later, I just went into labor on my own. Well, the other thing they kept trying to decide was which is better? The baby does better in the womb, but if he gets an infection, that’s worse. So they kept balancing the, “Do we induce you or let it go?” So they monitored me really closely for infection, but I didn’t show any signs and then 11 days later, I just went into labor on my own. I remember my doctor– oh, Dr. Dabling. I’ve been trying to remember her name for the past three days. I finally remembered it. She was super awesome. 

We loved her and she came in. She was like, “Okay. I really think we should give you an epidural.” I was like, “This baby’s going to be itty-bitty. It’s just going to literally fall out of me. That’s not going to be painful.” She was like, “Yes, but I’m really worried the placentas aren’t going to deliver well and that I’m going to have to go in and scrape them out of you and that will be very painful. I really suggest you get the epidural.”

So I did because the idea of people scraping things out of me was sufficient to push me to an epidural. They gave me the epidural and my husband got there. Twin B was born and they immediately whisked him off and got him to oxygen. He was set and stable within a matter of minutes. I delivered my placentas just fine and it was a great delivery. That was that. 

That was awesome and we were excited that both babies were here, but then four days later, twin B got an infection and died. 

Meagan: *Gasp* Just a random infection? 

Lizzy: My understanding, there were a lot of medical terms that I don’t understand, but they automatically put babies that young on antibiotics as soon as they’re born because they know that infection risks are high. He had been on them for about three days and wasn’t showing any signs of anything. It’s not good to be on medications you don’t need. So they took him off the medication and then within about 12 hours, he was looking really gross. He wasn’t looking good and then 12 hours later, he was gone. He was so little. He was 2 pounds. I’m not angry at anyone. I don’t feel like it was anyone’s fault. I feel like this was God’s plan. 

The fact that Cayden was born at home, twin A, and didn’t have any oxygen for an hour and didn’t have any of the drugs and is still alive today and his twin brother who was born in a hospital with everything and everything he needed and then died, it just seems so clear to me that God has a plan and that this is what was supposed to happen and so it did. You can try and control things and do the best you can and that’s great. God wants you to do that, but in the end, what needs to happen happens. 

So I came away with a lot of peace and not very much anger. I was really fortunate in that. I mean, it was so painful. It was so unbelievably painful and it was really interesting because we learn that my husband and I grieve in different ways. When my husband grieves, he wants to be around family and be supported and be around people and I just want to hide and be alone. I don’t want to talk to anyone. I don’t want anyone to tell me it’s going to be okay. I just want people to say, “You’re right. This sucks. This is so painful. I’m so sorry.” 

That was hard moving through that, but we figured it out and we’re doing a lot better now. Then, we got pregnant again. I was so nervous. I was so nervous that something was going to go wrong and something was going to break or the baby was going to die. I just couldn’t. I didn’t know what was going to happen and it was very stressful for me. The pregnancy went really well. It was a very smooth pregnancy, but I still had all of these lingering fears that something horrible was going to go wrong. 

I went into labor and we checked into the hospital. The room they put us in to be evaluated was two doors down from the room that we said goodbye to our little boy. It totally shut off all of my labor. We tried walking the halls to get things working, but we kept running into people we knew from the NICU and his respiratory therapist and it just brought back all of the memories and all of the fears. We just couldn’t do it. My labor totally shut off, so they sent us home and I remember as we drove home, I said, “I can’t do it. I can’t go back to that hospital. There are too many hard memories there.” 

My husband felt the same way. He said, “What if we do a home birth?” I was like, “Are you nuts? I’m 39 weeks pregnant, 40 weeks pregnant. This baby is coming. We can’t do a home birth.” He was like, “Yeah, we can. Let’s do it. We’ll call my mom. She’s delivered babies. We could totally do it.” We were like, “Okay. I guess we’re going to do a home birth because we know we can’t deliver in the hospital, so I guess that’s the only other option.” So we called his mom and we were like, “Hey, we need you to come to help us deliver this baby.” She was like, “I’m sorry, what?” But she was wonderful. 

Meagan: “Are you serious?”

Lizzy: No, I know. She was like, “Okay, well when do you want me to come down?” We were like, “Now. If you could get in the car now, that would be great.” She was like, “Okay.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Lizzy: Because we had just been to the hospital for labor, so we assumed it was imminent. We were like, “No, really. I think you should head down here because, at any moment, I could go into labor again.” She came down and then it was a whole week. She just hung out at our house. I remember finally one day, I was like, “I need you to leave my house for the day. I can’t see you. It reminds me that I haven’t had my baby yet. I need to stop ultra-focusing on this and I need you to just– you have a daughter that lives here. Go visit her. Go away for the day and come back. It’s not that I’m angry at you. It’s all that I’m thinking about.” 

I finally just went into labor on my own and it was a really hard labor. I was in transition for two hours. It was much harder and much more difficult than my previous labors had been, but then she came. It’s actually really funny because it was kind of early in the morning like 6:00 or 7:00 and she came out. Like I said, I’m a really vocal laborer so there was lots of yelling and lots of screaming. My kids were awake. They were watching a movie in a different room while we were trying to have this baby and so she comes out and 15 seconds later, my son walks in the door. 

He’s– gosh, I don’t know– probably three or four. I think four is about right and he walks in the door. He goes, “Is that the baby?” I mean, there’s blood. There’s fluid. We’re trying to make sure this baby is breathing. She has just come out. We’re like, “Yep, it is. Can you go away, please? Give us a few minutes.” He’s like, “Uh-huh. Uh-huh, okay.” So he leaves and 30 seconds later, he comes back with all of our kids and is like, “Look! Mom’s had the baby!” And we’re like, “Yep, we did. Can you please give us just a few more minutes?” 

But it was so beautiful and so wonderful. I laid down in my own bed. It felt so healing after our traumatic twin birth and not being able to face the hospital and everything associated with that. To be able to have this successful home birth where we were all together and my kids climbed in bed with me, it just was wonderful and beautiful and everything that we needed. 

And then we got pregnant again. 

Meagan: I love it. And then another baby. After a really healing birth, though. That had to have been just so special. 

Lizzy: It was so special and all of my kids are about 12-18 months apart. I have 10 kids and my oldest turns 11 next month so they are all really, really close which is something else that was really interesting is that a lot of times you hear with the VBACs and with getting pregnant after a C-section, you need to wait 9 months. You need to wait a year. You need to wait 18 months before you even get pregnant or whatever and we just did what we wanted. I mean, you definitely should consult medical professionals with your specific instances, but we felt really good every time we got pregnant like, “Yep. We’re ready to get pregnant. Let’s do this again. 

We feel good about this,” so we went ahead and did it even though I don’t think any doctor in the world would advocate doing what we’ve done. 

But we got pregnant again and my water broke the very first night of our family reunion. This was a week early or so and everyone was coming up for the weekend to our house for a family reunion. That night, my water broke. I was like, “Oh my goodness. Everyone is at our house and we were planning to do another home birth.” So I told all of the moms that as they were putting their kids down to bed, I was like, “I don’t think you want your kids upstairs. I’m probably going to be in labor all night screaming, so find someplace farther away so your children will sleep through the night.” 

So everyone was kind of like, “Why aren’t you going to the hospital? Your water has broken. What are you doing here? Why are you having a home birth?” But we were good with it. We were just like, “You know what? This is what we are doing.” I went to bed that night trying to sleep knowing what was coming and then woke up the next morning and I was like, “Wait a minute. I was supposed to have a baby. What happened?” 

I was hanging out waiting for labor to happen and we hiked a small mountain to have a bridal shower for my sister-in-law, all the while I’m like, “Okay. Maybe this will get it started. Maybe not.” Finally, it had been 18 hours or something, and nothing. Not even really any contractions and I was like, “I think maybe we need to call someone now.” Infections are real as we know, so let’s get on the phone with someone. They were like, “Your water broke when?” We were like, “18 hours ago.” They were like, “Will you please come into the hospital now?” I was like, “Yeah. I’ll come in.” 

So we checked in and actually, the doctor I met there was not my normal doctor. My normal doctor was on vacation and getting back the next day. So we had the guy that was just on call and he was actually really supportive. He was like, “You know what? Let’s try giving you a little Pitocin, just a little something to maybe get things going and see what happens.” He was totally on board with, “Let’s go for a vaginal birth.” But I was feeling a lot of fear. Something about having a vaginal delivery did not feel right to me. I was scared and scared of the pain, to be honest. 

Part of me was like, “I don’t want to. That’s so owie. I don’t want to do that. If I just do a C-section, they’ll drug me up and I’ll have a baby.” Which, I knew wasn’t true in my brain, but I wasn’t really thinking clearly because I knew that the delivery wouldn’t be painful, but the recovery would be so much worse. But at that moment, I was like, “I just really don’t feel good about this.” I was really torn and my husband was like, “You want to pick a C-section?” I was like, “I think so. Something doesn’t feel right about this.”

So I finally did. I said, “Can I just choose to have a C-section?” And they were like, “Yeah. Yeah. You can do that if you want to. We’ll go prep the OR.” They started the C-section and I could feel everything. It was awful. I kept telling them. I was like, “You guys, this really hurts. I can feel you cutting me.” They were like, “Oh, it’s okay. The pain meds are kicking in.” The anesthesiologist kept pushing more drugs. He didn’t understand why I was feeling this, why the pain meds weren’t working. It turned out that because I was feeling so much pain, I kinked my wrists. I was flexing my wrists because I was in so much pain and it kinked my IV so none of the drugs were getting to me. 

So when they finally realized that, they were like, “You need to relax your hands.” I did and all of the drugs hit me at once. I remember watching myself floating away from my body while Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds played in the background. I’ve never been stoned before, but I’m pretty sure this is exactly what it feels like. 

But yeah, I remember I was like, “Bye Lizzy,” as I floated away from my body and it was all psychedelic. It was really intense and I remember them asking me and then the rest of the C-section was pretty much a blur. They got the baby out and I remember them saying, “Do you want to hold your baby?” I was like, “Nope. I don’t even know where my arms are, so please don’t put that baby on me because it’s just going to fall off of me.” 

I was so out of it and it was just weird. It took me a long time to come back to even afterward. I didn’t hold my baby, I don’t think, for a couple of hours because I just didn’t feel enough in control of my body that I could do it safely. But he came and that was happy, so that was his birth. 

And then we got pregnant again with twins. I was so excited. I had prayed for so long. After Levi, our twin, died, I prayed for so long that we would get another chance at twins. I had always wanted twins and I thought that was so cool. I said, “Please, please, please give us another chance except it’s got to be a different outcome. I can’t do this dying thing. Please send us twins and make them healthy and happy and it’s going to be great.” 

So we got pregnant with twins and I was so excited except I was bleeding again and it was just like the first time. I was so scared. There were huge blood stains, but the bleeding seemed to heal itself a lot faster. It totally went away so I was like, “Oh, great. This looks awesome. This looks like we’re in a good spot.” And the rest of the pregnancy went really well. It got time to deliver. Now, I currently live in a very rural town where they have a hospital, but they were like, “We don’t have enough blood on sight that if you hemorrhaged, we could save you. We really think you should deliver somewhere else. We like you. We love taking care of you. We’d really love to deliver your babies. You should go someplace else for your safety just because you’re a high hemorrhage risk with the number of kids you’ve had. You’re having twins. They’re high risk because you’ve been bleeding. Please go somewhere else.” 

So we did. We went to a hospital two hours away. We scheduled it and we showed up and got all ready and went into the C-section and everything. I actually asked, “Can I record the C-section on my phone? Is there an extra nurse that can take a video of my C-section?” Because I’ve always wanted to see myself birth a baby but I always forget to tell people that I want to do that. So we’re in the middle of birthing and my husband is like, “Oh, do you want a mirror?” and I’m like, “Just get this thing out of me!” I’m not in the mood to deal with it at that point. I don’t know. I’ve never even watched birth videos of other people having babies because I just want to watch myself. The first time I see it, I want it to be me. 

So I asked them, “Can some nurse record this?” He was like, “Um, yeah. Sure.” So I totally have a video of my C-section on my phone which is a little disarming to watch actually. 

Meagan: Oh, I wish I had mine. 

Lizzy: My kids have watched it and they think it’s very cool. I remember as they were doing the C-section, I got so nauseous. I really thought I was going to throw up everywhere. I don’t know why or what caused that, but the babies came out and everything was beautiful. I had these two beautiful girls that look totally different and were a pound and a half different in size. I was in the recovery room and all of a sudden, I noticed that all of the nurses were starting to get really agitated. My husband was there with me too and they were like, “We’re going to take the babies to the recovery place. We need to help mom. Are you okay with that?” My husband was like, “Yeah. Take the babies away. I’m going to stay here with mom.” They were like, “Okay, good.”

I started hemorrhaging really bad. I wasn’t sure really at first what was going on, but I could just tell that something was wrong. Everyone was starting to panic. The doctor came back, so they finally told me, “You’re hemorrhaging. We’re trying to get it to stop. We’re going to try some stuff.” I was like, “Okay.” Then they proceeded to punch down on my most recently cut open belly and that was the most excruciating pain I have ever felt. Oh my goodness. It was awful. They just kept pushing and pushing trying to get my uterus to start clamping down again and it just wasn’t happening. 

They told me. They were like, “Okay. We previously discussed that you don’t know if you’re done having babies or not, so we don’t want to do a hysterectomy if we don’t have to. We have one more thing we can try, but if not, we’re going to have to do that. We’ve got to stop this bleeding.” So we were like, “Do what you can. But we understand that emergencies happen.” So they took me in and did this crazy– I was so out of it. I was in so much pain and said, “Whatever you do, if you have to take my uterus, will you please just put me under? I’m so done. I can’t feel this anymore. I need to be put out.” 

They were like, “Yes. I promise I will put you under if I have to put you in surgery again.” It’s called a uterine artery embolism. They took a picture of my uterus and all of the arteries from above, and they shot contrast fluid into all of the arteries. This doctor had to take a probe, a really long cord, and he went into the femoral artery in my leg. It had to go up around my heart and back down into my uterus. I don’t know medicine does these things, but it was so crazy. They take a still picture of where all of my arteries were and he would guide the probe by feeling through my body. They’d take another picture, see what it would look like, and he would push it through until it got to the artery and filled it with the medical equivalent of minimal expanding foam and just totally clogged up that whole artery so that it couldn’t bleed anymore. 

Meagan: Very fascinating. 

Lizzy: I know. It was a total miracle. Our doctor told us afterward that I think it took him a total of 20 minutes to do it and he said, “I’ve never done it faster than 45.” This was unbelievably fast and wildly successful. It stopped the bleeding and I was able to keep my uterus, but it was a hard recovery after having the C-section and then getting pounded on after that and then all of the procedures afterward, it was a really rough recovery. And I was older. I had lots of kids. It kind of all compounded and that was the recovery, but the twin girls were here and they were beautiful and so happy. I was able to tandem nurse which was something I hoped I would be able to do and now I have these 10 beautiful children that are just adorable. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. Yeah. I mean, wow. What a journey you have been through. Holy smokes. I am sorry about your loss. That is hard. 

Lizzy: Thank you. 

Meagan: I definitely felt the emotion in your story after, but thank you so much for sharing all of these beautiful stories and this journey that you have been on. It has definitely been quite the journey. So many unique things. You mentioned it yourself talking about waiting until you’re 18 months after to get pregnant or give birth and things like that. Between your C-section and your first VBAC, you said 3 months. 

Lizzy: Yeah. 

Meagan: 3 months. So we know that it’s possible. I think the biggest thing is yeah, there are all of these studies and I think that everyone needs to read the studies, educate themselves, and then make the decision that is best for them, but it’s really just that. Make the decision that is best for you and for you, your kids are closer and it sounds like you have such a happy crew for sure. 

But yeah. Are there any tips that you would give to our listeners especially going through such high and low emotions from each birth? Do you have any tips that you would give our listeners? 

Lizzy: I think I would say that each birth is its own birth. You need to be able to let it unfold the way it needs to without worrying about what has happened previously. Every birth can be so different. I felt a lot of fear after we lost our boy that it was going to happen every single time after and once I realized that this is a new baby. This is a new experience. I just need to have faith that it’s going to work out, I think that helped a lot, and just saying, “You know what? Yes. That happened. I hated that. It was awful. I don’t want to ever do it again. I’m going to try heading forward believing that this is going to be different.”

Not to the point where you ignore bad signs or bad feelings, but just where you say, “You know what? I’m going to let this baby be it's own and not be controlled by the fear of my previous pregnancies.” That was a big help for me to let each baby be their own. 

Meagan: Oh, I love that because especially with VBAC, we have this past and sometimes they are traumatic. Sometimes they are not. We all have experienced different Cesareans and things, but we still have this past birth and for me, I mean, even with my third, I was triggered because I had similarities to the way the labor started. I had to truly be like, “This is a different baby. This is a different birth. This is years later.” I had to try to stay present in this space and not flash back to three years ago or two years ago. It’s really hard to do. 

Lizzy: It is very hard.

Meagan: Yeah, but I love that you said that. Each baby and each birth is individual. 

Lizzy: And I think the other thing I tell myself a lot is a healthy baby is most important. The end goal is a living baby at the end. As long as I get a baby at the end that’s healthy, it’s going to be okay. The experience might not have been what I wanted, but the thing I really cared about was the baby. That was the end goal. The end goal was getting the precious, perfect, beautiful baby and every time, I got that. So every time was a win because that was my expectation. Now, I had other expectations too, but would I have rather gotten the perfect VBAC to have my baby die? No. My goal was to have the baby and so you try as hard as you can, do everything you can, and if it doesn’t go the way you want it, you still get this beautiful baby and that’s what’s really the happiest about this. You got the baby. 

Paige: I think what I look up to the most about Lizzy and her stories is that no, it’s not conventional. I don’t think there is anybody in the world who has had similar stories quite like Lizzy’s with kids that close together. I mean, typically in families that have a lot of kids, it’s kind of all vaginal– I mean, I don’t know. Right? 

Lizzy: Yeah. I think it’s mostly vaginal births that are very successful. 

Paige: I think Lizzy’s stories are very unique because there are C-section stories sprinkled in there and then a VBAC. We can all relate to that feeling deep within us of being drawn to VBAC and it’s like, “I know this is a little riskier. I know this isn’t maybe what a doctor would recommend initially.” I mean, hopefully, your practice is supportive. But that calling is in your heart and you go for it because your intuition is telling you that your body can do it. And that’s what Lizzy has refined. She has refined her intuition to be able to listen to that, follow it, and recognize that there is this calling to have these babies and bring them to the world in lots of different ways but also to move forward not in fear, but how she feels is appropriate. 

It’s probably not what’s going to work for you or for me. I’m not going to have 10 kids, but I can still look up to Lizzy and I’ve taken so much inspiration from her as I prepared for each of my births because she understands and has such a heart for birth and unconventional ways of birthing in the way that’s right for you. 

Meagan: I love that. Yes. 

Lizzy: I mean, I’ve now had four C-sections and I knew after my third C-section that no provider would let me vaginally birth again. Even after two, most of them say no but because I had accidentally had those twins vaginally, it kind of opened that door back up for me, but I knew that once I had another C-section, I was done. I’d never vaginally birth again and there’s part of me that still really mourns that. As I think about having more kids, I’m like, “Maybe I should just go off the reservation and have another home birth.”

Paige: We talk about that all the time because I’ve had three now. Lizzy has had four and we’re like, “We can do it.”

Lizzy: Right? Let’s just be each other’s midwives and deliver our babies at home in secret. 

Paige: So TBD what is in the future. We don’t know. 

Lizzy: So part of me does mourn that I’m not going to get that experience again because I think I know that it’s not good for my body with the history I’ve had that it’s probably not medically very smart for me to try and do that. But that’s okay. You know, because I’ve been through a lot and I got the baby and that’s what matters. I got the baby. 

Meagan: Yeah. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing all of your stories today and being here with us, taking the time out of your day. I know time is so precious and I just feel that in so many ways you’re going to touch someone out there listening just like Molly said in the beginning. In this podcast, every story is going to connect with someone differently, and with all of your stories, I guarantee there is someone out there who is going to connect or has maybe had a similar situation or was told something similar or something. So it’s going to be amazing. Thank you so much. 

Lizzy: Well, thank you for having me on. I love talking babies. 

Meagan: So do we, obviously. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.   

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