The VBAC Link

We are honored to have Dr. Hazel Keedle join us today all the way from Australia! Hazel is the author of Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth. She has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician both in nursing and midwifery, an educator, and a published researcher. Her work remains rooted in her desire to strengthen and empower women.

Hazel tells us how her own VBAC birth journey lit a fire that led to the completion of her doctorate degree and her book. Everything in her book is ESSENTIAL for VBAC-hopeful mamas and is all backed with evidence-based research.

We know you will LOVE listening to Hazel. She is so gracious and such an invaluable asset to the birth world. This episode is a must-listen and her book is most definitely a must-read for all!

Additional links

Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle, PhD

Hazel’s Instagram: @hazelkeedle

Hazel’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/VBACmatters

Sarah’s Instagram: @sarah_marie_bilger or @entering_motherhood

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: You guys are listening to The VBAC Link and I’m so excited for today’s episode. We have Hazel Keedle today. She’s in Australia and it’s 1:00 a.m. She stayed up all night just to be with us today on this podcast. So grateful for her. We’re going to be time sensitive so we can make sure to get her tucked into bed at a somewhat reasonable hour, but guess what? 

Today, we have a co-host. A co-host! I’m so excited to start bringing on some co-hosts here and there. Today, we have Sarah and she is one of our VBAC doulas. I’m so excited to have her with us today. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Sarah is going to actually do the honors of reading you a review. So go ahead, Sarah. 

Sarah: Hi, yeah. I’m glad to be here. We have a review from Katelyn Bayless. This one is from google and it says, “I honestly can’t recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I’m not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. 

“I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can’t tell y’all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”

Meagan: Oh, I love that. I love that. Well, today’s episode is going to have some more resources for you for sure. 

Hazel Keedle, PhD

Meagan: We are coming to you from The VBAC Link. We have a guest from Australia. We’re so excited to have her. We’re so, so excited. We actually just connected here. We are connecting for the first time, I should say today, but Hazel, our guest today, just connected with us about a week or two ago. 

You guys, she is so amazing. It’s 1:00 a.m. and she is in Australia recording right now, so I just want to give her a huge shoutout and thank you for being with us at 1:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. I told her I probably would have been, “Nope. Let’s find another time,” but here she is. She is so dedicated at 1:00 a.m. recording with us and I cannot wait to share with you this wonderful, wonderful human being. 

We are going to jump right into it because again, it’s 1:00 a.m. I don’t want to take too much time but I wanted to introduce her quickly. This is Hazel Keedle. She is a lecturer of midwifery and completed her PhD in 2021 at Western Sydney University in Australia. Hazel has more than 25 years of experience as a clinician in nursing and midwifery, educator, and researcher. 

Her research is – it might as well be 1:00 here Hazel. 

Hazel: You’re doing great.

Meagan: Her research is recognized internationally and focuses on midwifery practice, education, and women’s experience in maternity care. Hazel is passionate about improving support for women during pregnancy, birth, and early transition to mothering. She is amazing. 

Right here in my very hands, I am holding a book that she wrote. It’s called Birth After Caesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth by Hazel Keedle. I definitely am going to suggest this and we are going to talk more about her book here in just a minute, but again, I don’t want to take too much of her time so we are going to jump right into it and turn the time over to you to share all of your wonderful knowledge and of course, your story. 

Hazel: Sure, okay. Well, thank you for having me here. I really don’t mind waiting up for you. Okay, so yeah. My name is Hazel Keedle and I’m originally from the U.K., but I moved to Australia 20 years ago now with a backpack and I never left. I came over here as a nurse and then I trained to be a midwife while I was here. I was kind of destined. My granny was a midwife in England and she told me that I would be one, so I followed what she said and I became a midwife here. 

And then, I wasn’t particularly interested in vaginal birth after Cesarean at that point. I was just trying to get my head around what being a midwife was and what it meant. I quickly met my husband during my UgradG* as a midwife. We quite quickly got together and had a baby which was a planned home birth but ended up that he was being breech and I ended up having an emergency Cesarean because in my area at the time– this was 15 years ago– there wasn’t anyone who supported breech vaginal birth. 

I knew that I would have to have a Cesarean. I didn’t have a great experience and I didn’t do too well with my health afterward. But then, which was not planned at all, I got pregnant again very quickly. There were only 4 months between my Cesarean and getting pregnant. When I did find out, which was a few months after that, so I was breastfeeding, I had to think about what I was going to do and I really didn’t want to have a Cesarean. 

My whole first experience was the most hospitalized home birth you can have. I had pneumonia at 34 weeks with my first and then I had a Cesarean and I had mastitis and a childhood fever, so I was in the hospital three times. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Hazel: I was really sick and I really did not want to go through that again, but I also wasn’t sure if I would get support to have a VBAC because there would be 13 months between them or 14 months, I thought, at that point. 

I did lots of reading. I was a midwife by this point and I dug my head into the numbers. I read the only book that was out there which was The Silent Knife which as you know, is very old and it was very old then, but it was really good at getting me the statistics. I then dated my reading. 

For a whole weekend, I shut myself in a room and just read and read and read and read. I came out of it freaked out because a paper had come out that year that said if it was less than 6 months between a Cesarean and conception, then you had a 2.7% chance of uterine rupture compared to less than 1%. 

I got a bit freaked out by those numbers. I came up to my hubby who is a very rational numbers man and I said, “I can’t do it. I can’t do it. I can’t have a VBAC.” I told him the numbers and he said, “You’ve got over a 97% chance of everything being fine.” I was like, “Well, yeah.” It was more dangerous and get in a car and drive to the hospital. Why don’t you just go for a VBAC?

I adopted his idea and I thought that it was a great idea. I became dedicated to having a VBAC at that point. I didn’t realize at the time it would shape my future career and life goals, but I stuck my head in the sand. I avoided antenatal care to be honest because I didn’t want to hear the negativity but I was a midwife, so I was able to get someone to listen to my baby and did my blood pressure every time I went to work. 

I did plan a home birth for my VBAC, but all of my team couldn’t be there at the time, so I transferred in. I had to fight during my labor. There was just lots of coercion, lots of “you must have your baby by 4:00 or you’re going into a Cesarean”, and I had to just keep fighting. It was so hard to keep fighting when you are in labor. They also knew I was a midwife. I trained there, so I couldn’t understand why I had to fight so hard. 

And then I actually pushed her out of my vagina at 4:00 on the dot. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, no way. 

Hazel: Yeah. The time they were going to take me into theater was her birth time. It was amazing. I didn’t know I could feel that high after doing something that was so hard, but I did and it left me with a couple of questions when I looked back and reflected on how I felt. First of all, I wondered if there were any other women who felt as amazing as I did. I really was on cloud nine. I felt like I was healed and that all of the medical stuff I had after my first was gone. 

But with that came a question of how does any other woman in Australia manage to have a VBAC with that much drama and with that much negativity during labor?

Meagan: Yeah and pressure. 

Hazel: Yeah and I was a midwife. I could see through it, but how did other women who didn’t have that knowledge? So I was left with those questions. I was at a community forum. We had a lot of access issues up here to our local maternity and there were lots of petitions and community action. I went over to one of the forums. I shared my VBAC story in that forum and there was a professor of midwifery there who said, who I’d never met before, “You know, you’re a midwife. I think you should research this.” 

I stayed in contact and then about a year later, I started doing research with her. She was my supervisor for both my Master’s Honors and then my PhD. Now, we work together on a lot of projects. So yeah. It was sharing my story in that location that started my research career. Well, I think having a VBAC started my research career but that started my formal research career. 

Now I’m here. She’s about to turn 14 and I have done a Master’s, a PhD, five or so papers on VBAC, maybe more, and written a book. So that’s my story in a nutshell. 

Meagan: Those are amazing things. And written a book. It’s so funny because you were like, “Yeah, it started,” but I think it had been with you for a while and then that inspired you and gave you the extra oomph. It was like, “Now I’ve gone through this and experienced this. How can I change this? How can I change this for everyone else?” 

I always had this desire for birth and a passion for babies. I would have wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse, and then I had my first C-section and was like, “Oh. That wasn’t really what I wanted or what I envisioned.” 

Hazel: Yeah. 

Meagan: And then after my second, learning more about doulas and birth, and really the options, then also going through that second Cesarean, although it was healing and everything, just having a different experience, I was like, “Yeah. This is what I’m doing. This is what I want to do.” It’s like it was always in you and it was always in me, but these experiences that we’ve had have lit the first. 

Hazel: Yeah, it became the drive. I’ve always been interested in research. I got an Honors degree when I was a nurse back in London, and so I had a bit of a passion for research and for reading research, but I think you have to have that real drive and reason for going on such a big path. And yeah, definitely. For me, it was not even how amazing I felt. It was just that question of, did other women feel that? Is it hard for everyone?

There was one point when I had stayed overnight. I wish I hadn’t. I wish I had gone straight home, but I had been coerced to stay overnight in the hospital. Midwives would be coming in and saying, “Are you the VBAC woman?” I thought, “What is this? Is this a zoo and I’m a prized animal that they are coming in to stare at?” It made me think that it actually was quite rare then to have a VBAC here. It was really so rare that they had to come in and go, “Are you the VBAC woman?”

Meagan: “Are you the VBAC woman?” Yes. 

Hazel: Yeah. But I hadn’t learned much about it in my training. I was working in the low-risk units, so we didn’t offer VBAC in the hospital I was working in, so it was quite a rarity for me as well. 

Meagan: Yes. So tell me more about VBAC in Australia. Tell me more about what it’s looking like, what it’s seeming like, and what you’ve learned through all of your education. I would love to know. We talked about this in the beginning. I’m just here in Utah. We are actually very fortunate. We have a high VBAC rate here. I mean, Cesarean rates are still through the roof in general in my own opinion, but we still have a higher VBAC rate and we still have to fight for it. It isn’t as uncommon, but I’d love to know more about your research and what you’re seeing there in Australia. 

Hazel: Yeah. So what is your VBAC rate, out of interest, in Utah?

Meagan: I’m trying to remember the exact. I will look it up. 

Hazel: I’m trying to think that the US in general is about 12% isn’t it the last time I checked the numbers?

Meagan: Yeah, that does sound right. 

Hazel: Interestingly, I do a lot of presentations on VBAC. When you look across the world, they really do vary from Finland with, I have a 50%, down to across to you guys at 12%. We match you. We actually don’t have the high European numbers. We have 12% as well. 

Meagan: It says 23.9%. 

Hazel: Okay, so that’s pretty good. I wish we had that. 

Meagan: Yeah, so it says in 2020, well, oh my gosh. 21.3% were Cesarean, but vaginal birth after Cesarean from 2017-2020 in Utah averages 23.9% overall. 

Hazel: Yeah. 

Meagan: And then it breaks it down within the cities here. 

Hazel: Which is pretty good. I mean, I know that’s not consistent across the U.S. because the national number comes right down. We do have varieties over here and those varieties are down to the model of care and access. 

So here in Australia, we have a public maternity system or a public hospital system that is paid through the taxpayer. In that system, where everyone gets free health care, they will be able to access a few different models depending on what’s available in their area. They might have a midwifery group practice where they could see the same midwife throughout and there would be a few of them that were on call for free. It’s part of the hospital service, but that is relatively new. That has really been rising in the last few years as the health services are increasing those models. 

We have the standard antenatal care which is where women see whichever midwife is on duty or whichever doctor is on duty and whoever is in the labor ward will look after them during labor and whoever is on the ward would look after them postnatally. We call it “standard care” but we also call it “fragmented care” because you see somebody different all of the time. 

Then we have– so outside of the hospital system, we have some smaller ones for first nations women, and for migrant women, there are some specific models as well. But then outside of the hospital system, we do have privately practicing midwives who are able to prescribe medications, get some money back from Medicare, and offer home birth services. Some of them also have visiting rights in hospitals. That is more state specific. We have more ** there than in any other state here in Australia for the visiting rights. 

Meagan: So then are you able to come over if a transfer were needed to happen and things like that, they could come over and perform their care? 

Hazel: Yeah, they could have an agreement with the local hospital, but that’s a growing thing and it’s more popular in some states than in others. Where I am, which is New South Wales, which is where Sydney is, there’s only really one hospital that offers that in such a very big state. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Hazel: And then we also have the private hospital as well where you would be through a private obstetrician. You would get that continuity, but it’s obstetric care, not midwifery care. You may or may not see a midwife during your antenatal period and then you will have midwives along in the labor ward or in the private hospital, but with the private obstetrician you signed up for. 

So we’ve got a few different models of care and what we do know from the studies that have been done, the VBAC rates do vary across those models of care. They are higher with privately practicing midwives, so a lot of women who choose home birth are choosing it after a Cesarean and that’s what I did my first study on which was their experiences. 

Then we have good rates in midwifery models of care such as the midwifery group practices and then we have low rates in private hospitals. They have higher repeat Cesarean rates and a lower VBAC rate in private hospitals with continuity of obstetric care. That’s really how it looks. 

But obviously, we are a very big country with a lot of areas in between, so we will have hospitals that maybe don’t offer birthing services, but a lot of our remote communities are a bit like Canada where all of them, I say in areas of Canada, they have some birthing in-country services. We are still a bit behind on that, so it really is a variety of services, but in most metropolitan hospitals, you’d get a private model, a public model, and midwifery models within that. 

Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh. I love it. I wish so badly that I had the capabilities or I guess I was in a time in my life where I didn’t have little, like little kids, where I could bounce around to not only different states but different countries and somehow observe birth and learn birth around the world. That is this dream of mine that I could understand birth from all areas other than just little Utah here. 

I have a doula partner who just came from Texas and birth is so different here in Utah than it is in Texas. What you’re describing is so different. Obviously, there are similarities all around. We hear all of these stories and there are definite similarities. It’s birth, but the way care is and everything, so yeah. One day. One day maybe I’ll be able to bounce around in life, but I love hearing that. 

Hazel: That’s right because only then you’re limited then to really what is published and so some other countries that have higher VBAC rates– just across from us is New Zealand where they have a midwifery model of care and the numbers we can get from them, they don’t have national data on this, they seem to have much higher VBAC rates to us, but then they aren’t published very much on it, so it’s really hard to know. Unless you’re there, it’s hard to get a sense of what’s going on. 

Meagan: What’s really going on, what they’re doing, and why do they have such a high rate? 

Hazel: Yeah, yeah. 

Meagan: Other than maybe midwifery care. 

Hazel: There are some studies out there, especially in Europe, there are some studies that looked into the culture and how different that is, but not enough. Not enough to really give us an idea. 

Meagan: Absolutely. So, Ms. Hazel, I would love for you to share more about your book too. You have so many amazing things in this book. I’m going to hurry and just flip over to the table of contents, but it reminds me a lot about our VBAC course. It covers so many incredible things, these topics. Obviously, your VBAC journey is in there, your research journey which I think is amazing, your PhD journey, birth trauma, and experiences and symptoms of birth trauma which are so important. We don’t talk about that enough. 

Seeking help and debriefing– again, something we don’t talk about enough. How to access debriefing. I don’t know if you want to cover any of that, but that’s so important right there. You have so many things in this book. Do you want to cover some of your highlights? Sarah and I are both here in the states, but we would love to know more about this amazing book. By the way, listeners, we’re going to have a link for this book if you want to purchase it and give it a read because it’s going to be amazing for you. I promise you. 

Hazel: Oh thank you. Well, my publishers are in the U.S., so when I was writing it I very much had the U.S. in mind, Australia, and the U.K., so even when I looked at any resources in the book, I tried to find U.S. ones as well. 

Meagan: Yeah, I noticed. YOu have some Lamaze and everything in here. You have tables of words broken down and it does have U.S. things. That is something, I think, that is so amazing because a lot of our listeners are in the U.S. so it’s super nice to be able to read something and have some resources for here where they are. 

Hazel: Yeah. The idea behind the book was I was towards the end of my Ph.D. journey and I used a methodology called feminist critical theory. Part of that is that you give back your research. You get your research. You get your data from women in the community, but you want to give back to transform that culture for the better. 

When I was really evaluating, “Well, how do I do that?” When I was writing my thesis, I was like, “Well, how am I giving back to my community?” I had research papers and I know people read research papers. You guys do and then you translate that evidence into your doula course. A lot of people do that. But I thought, “Maybe that’s not everyone.” 

When I did my Australian VBAC survey, I asked what kind of resources people used, and there was a real want to have more books out there. I wondered if I could have this crazy pipe dream of writing a book and then I had the opportunity to do that, so I submitted my thesis in the October and by the December, I had signed a book contract. I was really keen while it was all fresh in my head to get it all out and down on paper.

I think lockdowns were in my favor because I had to take leave because it was building up. I couldn’t go anywhere so it was like, “Well, I will just sit and write this book then.” That’s really how I used my time to do it. I put it together as my findings of my PhD. One of the first papers I wrote on my PhD journey was looking at all of the evidence that was out there. The title of the paper was, “The journey from pain to power.”

That was a thread that went through all of my PhD journey. When I was then looking at, “Well, how do I write this book?” The term “journey” was very high up there. I thought, “Well, I go on that journey from pain to power.” That first thing is that pain and that is that previous Cesarean. One of the things I found out from my studies was that usually in the community, we have about a third of women say “yes” to experiencing birth trauma. That’s the full state of birth trauma which includes psychological birth trauma. 

When I asked that question in my VBAC surveys– so all of these women have had at least one previous Cesarean– that was ⅔ of women that suggested birth trauma. We already know we have a highly traumatized group of women who have had a previous Cesarean, so that’s why I started with that. I think it’s really important. It certainly is. I was a home birth midwife for many years. I know you need to work that out and talk about it, and debrief about it before. You’ve got to work at that past to be able to look forward to the future. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, and even recognizing it. 

Hazel: Yeah, that’s a great one. 

Meagan: Sometimes, it’s hard to recognize that you look at your experience as traumatic because I feel like so many times, we are mentally trained to tell ourselves, “Oh, we had a safe and healthy baby, so no. It’s fine.” They suppress their trauma down. They’re like, “No, I was fine. It’s fine.”

Sarah: We’re led to believe that as well. 

Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That’s why I really brought in quotes and what it can look like for women and quotes from the stories that had been shared with me for people to go, “Maybe that is what I experienced. Maybe those symptoms are what I am experiencing.” I start that chapter off with, “Go grab yourself, in pure English style, go grab yourself a cup of tea and a chocolate bar because this chapter will be tough,” just to recognize that this might not be the easiest one. It might not be where people want to start off with. They might go back to that. But yes. 

I started off with that pain and then I used what I found through my PhD and what I did in my qualitative. So in my PhD, I had qualitative and that moved into quantitative. So the qualitative is all of the feelings, experiences, and exploration, and then the quantitative is all of the stats and the numbers. When I did the qualitative, what I did was I had this crazy idea of designing an app. Women, after their appointments with their healthcare provider, would come home and record their experiences on the app. 

They would do that after every appointment and then I interviewed them afterward as well. I had some really rich data. I had 52 recordings. I’m so grateful to those women. I’ll be forever indebted to those women. Then I had all of these interviews as well, so I had these really rich stories. We use that term in qualitative is rich data. 

Sarah: These were appointments leading up to their birth or after in the postpartum period after their Cesarean? 

Hazel: Right, this is during their pregnancy. 

Sarah: Okay.

Hazel: So they were planning to have a VBAC. That’s what their plan was and then they would go and see their healthcare providers and then they would do recordings for me. They were given some prompts and questions, but it became very organic like it was more like a journal. They would start going, “Hi, Hazel. I’m so many weeks now and this is what just happened.” It was a really novel way. The research hadn’t been done like that before, so it was really interesting. 

What I was able to do was a narrative analysis which was comparing all of their stories against each other to look for commonalities and differences. What I found is that there were these four factors that impacted how they felt after the birth because I interviewed them all after the birth as well. Those four factors, if they were really positive on those four factors across them and they had a cumulative effect. One had an impact on the other. They felt better about their birth experience regardless of the birth experience. If they felt lower on those four factors, they were more devastated after their birth experience.

It didn’t mean that those who had a vaginal birth didn’t feel more positive than those that had a repeat Cesarean because it kind of was that as well, but there was a lot of resolution that could come when you had a repeat Cesarean, and felt higher in those factors. Those factors are then what I go into in the book. There’s a chapter dedicated to each one of those factors. 

They are having control, so having control over your choices, your wishes, and your birth outcomes. Then there’s having confidence, so having confidence in your ability to have a vaginal birth after a Cesarean, but also, having confidence in your healthcare providers’ belief in you. That was quite surprising for me how pertinent that was. Women really wanted that. It makes sense, doesn’t it? You really want that person to believe in you and believe that you can do what it is that you want to do. 

And then there’s having a relationship, so that was the relationship that you have with your healthcare provider whether that’s one that is developed such as continuity of care or whether it’s with a different person each time, and even then, not all continuity is the same and that really came out in the study. 

And then the last one is being active in labor. That seemed a bit of a strange one to add on, but women who felt they were really able to do everything that they wanted to do during labor and birth, being as active as they could, as upright as they could, felt better after their birth experience. If they then ended up with a repeat Cesarean, then they still felt very positive because they had done everything that they could compared to not having the opportunity to be upright and vocalizing that. 

Meagan: Yes, yes. We have found that. I have found that personally in my group of doulas. We have found that even if it doesn’t end the way they want, there are bumps and curves. It’s labor and birth, but along the way, if they felt like they were in charge and were able to be in the positions they wanted and call the shots a little bit more, overall after, they felt immensely more positive and happy about their experience. 

Hazel: Yeah, absolutely. That’s it. In the book then, I really go into what they all mean. The control chapter might take some people by surprise because I actually know a lot of women, especially when they are reflecting on their previous Cesarean which may have been, let’s just take probably the most common example these days. Induction, they’re having their first baby, they get close to the date, post dates, they get encouraged to have an induction. The induction doesn’t quite go to plan. They have a cascade of interventions and have a Cesarean. 

When they are then planning for the next birth before or during the pregnancy, one of the common themes is getting armed with knowledge. It’s like, “Okay. Now I need to know everything about labor, birth, and pregnancy. I really want to be able to call the shots.” There’s a bit of grieving in that time of, “Why did I say yes? Why didn’t I say no?” A bit of self-blame. I think as women, we are kind of hardwired to blame ourselves for everything, especially blaming our bodies because we are never quite right. 

The media never lets us think we are right because we are either too big or too small or our boobs are not quite right or whatever. 

Meagan: Right.

Hazel: There’s nothing to make us feel better and then we blame ourselves for not being able to stand up against the patriarchal medical system. I actually start the control chapter looking at the impact of the patriarchy in medicine and especially in obstetrics and how the different waves of feminism have impacted that and also the impact of reproductive justice which is something that is obviously very important in the U.S., but also over here with our host nations’ women and migrant communities that have come to Australia. 

I look at all of that and really frame it to go, “You know, it’s actually not your fault. It’s actually really hard to stand up for yourself and say no when you are at the bottom of a really oppressive ladder.” Not to come and say, “Well, you can’t do anything,” because then I explore all of the ways of what you can do to help that and actually how you need all of those factors together to really build your position. But almost to take that guilt off and also understand where we’ve got to today with a hospital-based maternity system, why it is like it is, and the impact of all of those different changes in society that have got to where we are today. 

So yeah. Those are the different chapters. Some of them have activities that you can do. There are a few guess righters in there. And then one of my favorite parts, probably because I didn’t have to write it, but I put a Facebook post out and asked for women who had any VBAC stories that they wanted to print in the book. I wanted a VBAC with just something a little bit different or complicated risk or whatever. 

I have got 12 stories of women from around the world including the U.S. who’ve had VBAC with something a little bit different there. It might be after multiple Cesareans like your story or it might be at home or it might be with a larger body which, as we know, gets a lot of stigma in maternity care. 

There’s one that is a VBAC after a uterine rupture. There’s one after a classical scar. There are all of these different stories at the back of the book in full with pictures, but I also weaved them into some of the chapters earlier as well. I love those stories. Some are short. Some are in poem form and some are really long. I just kept them as they were and put them in the book. Just really so women can identify and go, “Maybe I’m not quite sure what Hazel is saying,” and then they get to that story and they are like, “Oh, actually I really relate to that person.”

Meagan: Yeah. That’s one of the reasons why we’re here on The VBAC Link podcast, right? All of these stories, some of them you might not connect to as deeply, and then some you’re like, “Oh my gosh. That’s me. I felt that. I had that. That’s my story. It’s like they’re taking it out of my own mouth.”

Hazel: Absolutely. It is so important. 

Meagan: We’ve had that many times where it’s like, “Whoa. That was almost creepy how similar those births were,” and then to be able to connect and be like, “But look. They went on and they did it. This is what they did.” It’s so empowering. Just flipping through these beautiful pictures is absolutely stunning. Absolutely stunning pictures. I’m sure these stories are going to, again, relate to so many people out there that may not even know that they’re going to relate to them until they read them. 

Hazel: Yeah. I do mention in the– oh my gosh. I’m testing myself on which chapter that one’s in now. I think it might be Confidence about really relating to stories and listening to podcasts. I mention that you really need to tap into your peers because we have very large social media groups now and pages to follow full of positive VBAC stories. That’s important in there. I do also add there, it does say that the title is Birth After Cesarean. I do throughout the book look at, you are choosing the best birth for you. You need to prepare for both, but you may either have or choose a gentle Cesarean. There is a chapter in there as well about what a gentle Cesarean is, what evidence says, and maybe some of the things you might think of if you have a repeat Cesarean. 

There is that part of it as well because I explore how important it is to really if you’re going to be in control of everything or have more control, then you have to be aware of all options that might happen and be able to still have the best birth for you regardless of that outcome. 

Meagan: Yeah. We just posted– we reposted I should say– from Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. I think that is how you say it. Hopefully, I’m not butchering her last name. She’s from Australia actually. She’s an OB and she posted this video of a gentle Cesarean where the mom was actively involved in giving birth to her baby with her own hands. 

Hazel: Yeah. 

Meagan: For me in my Cesareans, both of them, my arms were strapped down in a T and after my second daughter was born, they undid the one arm and I did have skin-to-skin. I was able to hold her with that one arm, but watching this video was captivating. It’s a 30-second thing, but I watched it probably 40 times because I’m like, “Oh my gosh.” I looked at the mom. I looked at the baby. I looked at everyone around her. There was no curtain. She was able to be totally a part of her birth. I’m like, “Yes. This is what we need.” I literally texted a midwife here in Utah. I’m like “I know I’m a really small fish in a big ocean, but let me know if there’s anything I can do from my end to start bringing this option to people.” 

We got so many messages after like, “Whoa. How can I get that? What do I need to do?” It looks like in Australia, there are multiple videos of this happening. 

Hazel: I will add that it’s not common and it really does depend on who your OB is. 

Meagan: Exactly. 

Hazel: But a few years ago, one of my dear friends did her PhD as a video ethnography of skin-to-skin in theater. She was videoing Cesareans and seeing really what happens to what enables skin-to-skin in theater and what doesn’t. It was really fascinating. She was one of my PhD buddies. One of the Cesareans she saw was a gentle Cesarean with the woman reaching down to grab her baby. 

She wrote this beautiful article, but it was actually in a midwifery college magazine that doesn’t exist anymore. I could say that she had written it, but I couldn’t find my copy of it. I emailed because we are friends. I emailed her and I said, “Look. Do you have a PDF copy because I really want to read it?”

She sent it to me. I read it. I wrote about it in that chapter and then I sent the chapter to her. I said, “Could you just read it to make sure that I’ve said all the right things?” because that’s her expert area. She was happy with what I had written, so that was good. Yeah. It really is down to providers. But really, the more women that ask for it, the more pressure there will be to explore it. There are a lot of resources and videos out there now that can show people how to do it. 

Meagan: And how to do it and that it is possible. 

Hazel: Yeah. 

Meagan: I think sometimes it’s like, “No. That’s impossible. It’s a sterile environment. We can’t have extra bodies in the operating room.” But look. 

Hazel: The woman’s already there. There’s not going to be an extra body. 

Meagan: Right. 

Hazel: And really, the ones that I’ve seen really, they will do the surgical scope with their hands. They will have double gloves on so when they get to the point of needing to reach down, they can take that first pair of gloves off, and then you’ve got the sterile ones on underneath. There are lots that can be done. Even just lowering the screen. There’s often still a screen there, but it’s lowered so they can reach down and then take the baby, and then it can go back up while they do the suturing. 

Meagan: Absolutely, yeah. 

Hazel: There are ways it can be done, but it’s just having people understand why. I remember being in an OB’s office with a client, a woman I was caring for. She was exploring her options after having a Cesarean. She mentioned having a gentle Cesarean. His attitude was, “Well, if I offer that, then nobody will want to plan a VBAC.” 

I was like, “That’s actually not going to happen. Don’t worry. It’s just giving an option to women. Women still really want to have a vaginal birth after Cesarean. That’s not going to go down. Your rates are not even that high anyways so don’t stress. This is what you can do to support them.” But yeah. That was an excuse for not wanting to go there because it sounds a little bit too hard. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Sarah: Yeah. That just goes back to sharing our stories too because I feel like without sharing those experiences like we were saying, you’re not going to know what your options are if you’re not being informed about them. If others are doing this and more people are asking for it, then it’s going to open that door and allow other people to be in control of what they want for their birth. 

Meagan: Exactly. 

Hazel: And throughout the book, it really is based on evidence. I am a researcher with a very large library of articles and I did dive into them. Straight after the trauma chapter, I go into what the evidence is for the different choices. I have a really deep dive into uterine rupture and then what was meant to be part of a chapter actually ended up on its own which was Can I Have a VBAC If…? and then I look into different scenarios or issues that potentially people will say, “Can I have a VBAC if I’ve got this?”

So that is all evidence-based with numbers and going through what current data is out there. 

Meagan: Right. There are a lot of percentages in your book. I love it. There are graphs. You may not think that this may impact care, but she has this, it’s Figure 2 in the book. It’s talking about the length of time for pregnancy appointments under different models of care. You may not right now think the length of an appointment matters, but I can tell you right now firsthand from experience that when I had with my VBAC kiddo, I switched care at 24 weeks. I had an OB and he was great. I seriously loved the guy. He’s wonderful and I still think he’s wonderful. 

But then I switched care to a midwifery model-based care. The difference between my visits and again, OBs will spend time, but for me, the difference between my visits was incredible. I actually looked forward, really looked forward to visits with my midwife. I was always greeted with a ginormous hug. She never walked in without giving me a big hug and saying, “How are you doing? Really, how are you?” and then would sit down. 

We would just have a discussion. She became my best friend. I could just open up to her. She spent quality time. For me, it really helped me as I was entering into this next stage of birth to feel confident in her. I was so comfortable because of all the time that she spent with me. 

Hazel: I love that. I do love that graph. That came out of my VBAC in Australia survey. We asked what model of care they had and then I asked, “What was the time spent at your appointments?” When we looked at the data, it was just so obvious that the shorter time frame, so maybe 5-15 minutes was certainly with obstetric-led care, and then the 20 minutes plus– certainly, with the privately practicing midwives it was more, and then an hour usually was with the midwifery models of care. 

That was important because relationships take time. In that relationship factor, you need to have someone by your side who understands your wishes and your trauma if you have some which, as I said, ⅔ of women did, and understands what you want, what you are planning for, and what you are hoping for. Just understanding you and how you tick. 

Certainly, in my years as a continuity of care midwife, in all models of care, you really, for me as a midwife, I really want to know the person that I’m caring for so that I can see those changes, those really subtle changes in behavior even during labor and also you can pick up when things really aren’t quite right and that you might need an extra hug at that time or an extra kind word. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Hazel: That takes a lot of trust. Relationships in healthcare, I believe, should be based on trust and equity. That takes time. The very simple graph, there’s no way I could have done an appointment in ten minutes because I have to have a cup of tea at least. There’s no way I could drink a cup of tea in just five or ten minutes. So sit down, have a cup of tea, and learn about what’s going on.

The physical part, feeling the baby, the blood pressure, that you do at some point, but that to me, finding out what’s going on for the woman and how she’s feeling and what’s going on with the family, that is far more important. That takes time. When we saw that in the graph format, it was like, “Oh perfect. That exactly shows what we are saying.” A relationship takes time. 

Most of us don’t usually marry someone that we haven’t really or get into a relationship with someone that we haven’t spent a fair bit of time with and figured out whether we like them or not. We understand that those relationships are important. I think that when you are only doing something a few times in your life, but you will remember it for the rest of your life, then you really want to choose the team and the support people there. That includes your healthcare provider who completely knows you and completely understands where you’ve come from and where you want to go.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. I feel like I could talk to you until 4:00 a.m. in Australia. 

Hazel: I’m wide awake now. 

Meagan: My family and I are getting ready. We are going on a trip this weekend. Your book is going to be in my hand the entire airplane ride there and back because I just want to soak in every single word that you wrote in this book. I am so excited. I definitely encourage everyone. I haven’t even read it yet, but I’ve skimmed it I should say. I started, but I haven’t had time to just sit down and read. It’s going to be amazing I can already tell just by browsing through this and listening to you.

Oh my gosh. There is something that you say here. It’s in the very beginning. This is where I have stopped reading, but it was something that impacts me personally because I feel emotional. It’s kind of funny. I felt like this. I felt like a failure and I feel like there are so many times in life when we can– like you said, we beat ourselves up. If it’s not about our body, it’s about something else, but failure is a word that comes in. 

I actually have recently, today actually, it’s going to be launching. I recently made a reel about failure and how there is no such thing as failure, but this is something if you don’t mind, I’m going to quote you reading this book. 

It’s page 10 everybody if you have the book. “In this book, I will talk about planning an elective Cesarean, planning a VBAC, having an elective Cesarean, having a VBAC, or having a repeat emergency Cesarean. There is no failure. You haven’t failed if you choose one birth mode but have another. You are amazing and your choices are valid. Be true to you.” 

That, to me, is so powerful. “Be true to you.” And no, you did not fail no matter what birth mode you chose or what birth mode ended up happening, right? Don’t you feel that, Sarah?

Sarah: Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think it touches back into the trauma too that maybe you are not aware of that you’ve experienced and really fear-clearing and taking the time to process your previous birth knowing that whatever the outcome is for your next journey, you’re not that failure. You’re fine and perfect. You’re enough. 

Hazel: Absolutely. 

Meagan: Mhmm. You are enough. Yes. 

Hazel: The research, when you read it, is really full of emotive damaging words when it comes to VBAC. Saying that women are a trial of scar or a trial of labor, we are not criminals for wanting to have a vaginal birth and when we use that language in research, then it means OBs and clinicians and nurses and midwives will use that language as well and tell you that you’re on trial. What do you imagine when you think of that? You’re not thinking about, “Is this uterine scar going to survive?” You get a feeling that you’re a criminal and you’re not just because you want to have a vaginal birth. 

I even challenge researchers. Take that language out. You don’t need it. It’s unnecessary. I’ve been writing a paper with some OBs over here recently and just saying, “I won’t be on it if you use the term ‘trial.’ I won’t be on it if you use the term ‘failed’ or ‘succeeded’. Just take the emotive words out and call it what it is.”

We have to show by example as well and not have that language in the papers that are influencing policy, guidelines, and practitioners. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Sarah: There is such power in the language and the words that we use. Absolutely. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Well, Hazel. It has been such an honor to chat with you. Like I said, I feel like we could go on and on and on. Maybe we just need to have you back on. Maybe we need to do something even bigger and do a webinar with you because you have such a wealth of knowledge and we’re so grateful for you. 

Like I said everybody, we will have the link for her book Birth After Cesarean: Your Journey to a Better Birth in our show notes. So Hazel, before we go, do you want to share where everyone can find you? I’m going to be sharing you all over our social media as well. We’re going to have everything in the show notes, but tell people where we can find you. 

Hazel: Yeah, sure. I’m on Instagram at @hazelkeedle. I’m on Facebook at VBAC Matters or Hazel Keedle, VBAC Researcher. That’s where I share my book information but also future research that I’m doing as well. I’d love to come on and do a webinar with you and talk further about this anytime even at 2:00 in the morning. 

Meagan: Even at 2:00 in the morning! You are amazing. We are so grateful to you. Seriously, thank you so much, Hazel. Yeah. I can’t wait to share this episode with the world. 

Hazel: Thank you for having me. 

Sarah: You know, a lot of what we talk about in the episode is so important and so true to how I feel too. I think calling out trauma has been something that’s really near and dear to my heart and something that I had to do to prepare for my own VBAC, so I definitely recommend anybody that is going through this journey to make sure that you are taking the time to really heal from that previous birth and taking time to process and doing some fear clearing and even physical healing from the scar and doing scar massage and such like that. 

Also, I really think it’s important to find that support and build that relationship like Hazel was talking about. Make sure you have somebody that you are able to build a relationship with and feel comfortable with because that’s going to matter so much when it comes to your birth. 

And also, finding a doula that you have a good relationship with, not just your provider. I think those are really main things that I really try to instill in anyone that’s going for a VBAC. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I 100% agree and Sarah, we are so happy to have you in our VBAC Link doula community. Can you tell everybody where they can find you as well? 

Sarah: Yeah, sure. I am in Simpsonville, South Carolina. It’s in upstate South Carolina. More commonly, I guess you’d be familiar with Greenville, South Carolina. I am in that area. You can find me, mostly I hang out on Instagram, so either @sarah_marie_bilger or Entering Motherhood. You can find me there on Instagram. We’re actually planning on starting up local VBAC support groups.

Meagan: Oh, amazing. 

Sarah: So if anybody is around and in the area and interested in doing that, there’s going to be me and another doula in the area. We’re excited to start that and really provide in-person support for people either that have had Cesareans, may be thinking of a VBAC, or really just any realm of Cesarean/VBAC. If you’ve already had your VBAC and you want to come share your story of success to motivate and help women that are preparing for it as well, we’re going to include story sharing and different topics to cover. 

Meagan: Absolutely amazing. Awesome, awesome. When all of that information is available if you wouldn’t mind shooting that over to us, we will make sure that the world knows that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for co-hosting with me today. It was such an honor to have you. 

Sarah: Thanks for having me. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“Trauma is anything that overwhelms your nervous system’s ability to cope.” 

On paper, Camden’s first birth went really well. It was an elective, scheduled C-section. There was no emergency. Her physical recovery was smooth. Yet Camden was later able to realize and admit that she was actually carrying significant emotional trauma from her birth. She often felt powerless, helpless, overwhelmed, and robbed of the birth experience her heart truly wanted. 

EMDR therapy not only helped Camden heal from her first birth, but also gave her the tools to cope during her second delivery through over four hours of pushing, severe postpartum hemorrhaging, and a tough recovery. Though her VBAC was much more dramatic on paper than her C-section, Camden hasn’t felt any emotional trauma this time! Her hard work was all worth it.  

 

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: All About Third Trimester Ultrasounds

Find an EMDR Therapist

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello Women of Strength Wednesday. It is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Camden, here with you today. She is from Tennessee. Camden is amazing. She is a wife and a mother of two. She had a C-section with her first one and then had a VBAC. We’re going to have her story shared today. I’m so excited to have her share her story. 

She’s got a couple of things that really happen often. One with her first is the third-trimester ultrasound. If you have ever been told, “Hey, we’re going to do a third-trimester ultrasound and see how big your baby is or see what’s going on,” stick with us because that is common and at the end, we are going to go over some information on that. 

She also has an awesome thing that I think is added to her story. She went through EMDR therapy. I am very fascinated with this, so I cannot wait for her to share more. She’s actually a licensed clinical psychologist. Is that correct Camden?

Camden: That’s right. 

Meagan: Perfect, yes. She has a private practice and is a coach, a writer, and a speaker. She specializes in women’s issues and relationships and faith. She is just a wealth of knowledge. I am so honored to have her here today and to be sharing her story. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Of course, we have a Review of the Week. I’m going to dive into that and then we will get into the nitty-gritty of these beautiful stories. Today’s review is from Katelyn and I’m hoping that we did not read this review already. It was given just two weeks ago on Google. 

If you didn’t know, you can Google The VBAC Link and leave us a review there. We love your reviews. We know we say it all the time. I know I say it all the time. I don’t know when “I” is ever going to come naturally. It’s always “we”. I just miss my Julie. But we love reviews and we need your reviews to read on the podcast. So if you wouldn’t mind, drop us a review on Google, Apple Podcasts, social media, or anywhere and we would love to read your review on the podcast. 

Katelyn says, “I honestly can’t recommend The VBAC Link enough. I had my son via C-section in 2021 and even though I’m not pregnant with number two yet, I feel so ready and even excited for when that time comes because of all of the stories and education from The VBAC Link. I have been binging the podcast for the past couple of weeks and I have a note on my phone that is specifically for VBAC resources and education that has been mentioned on this podcast. 

“I am looking into providers and planning on starting interviewing some soon. I can’t tell y’all enough. Thank you for all that you do and I hope one day I can share my VBAC story.”

I love that Katelyn. I love that you’re starting your journey even before you’re pregnant. I also did that. For me, it felt right and everyone has a different time that it feels right to start their journey and start their prep and interview providers. But for me, unfortunately, it took a while. I’m glad that I started that journey before I fell pregnant because I was able to really decipher who and what I wanted as well as what answers were truly something that I believed to be supportive. 

So congratulations on starting your journey and I too hope that you are with us one day to share your VBAC story. 

Camden’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Camden. Are you ready to share your stories? 

Camden: Yes, I’m ready. 

Meagan: Well, I’m ready to hear them and share them with the world. Go ahead.

 

Camden: Okay, well thank you for having me on here, Meagan. I do a lot of podcast interviews for my work as a therapist and a coach but not a lot about me personally, so this is a little bit different for me. 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s awesome. 

Camden: Yeah. I am a licensed clinical psychologist but I’m really going to talk about my own personal experience here as a mom. As you said, I had my first child which is my daughter from a C-section in 2018, and then I had my son this February 2022 as a successful VBAC which was so exciting and felt so empowering. It just was a great experience. 

I knew as soon as I had my daughter from a C-section that I wanted to try for a VBAC, so I did a lot of preparation to get me there. Mostly just educating myself about how her birth as a C-section was unnecessary. As you said, I went into that third-trimester growth ultrasound. I was 36 weeks. That’s where they estimated her size. The ultrasound estimated that she already was 8 pounds at 36 weeks and that she was going to be about 10.5 pounds by the time I had her. They said at over 10 pounds, they recommend a C-section. 

Meagan: Yeah, and that number alone just saying, “Your baby could be 10-10.5 pounds.” You’re like, “What?” You know, that’s overwhelming too to hear as a mom. 

Camden: Yeah and I didn’t realize how off those estimates could be at the time. They did tell me, “Oh, it could be off about a pound either way. She actually could be a pound bigger.”

Meagan: Uh-huh. 

Camden: Yeah, and as a first-time mom, my husband and I were just freaked out. They told me, “You could get 3rd or 4th-degree tears. You could have shoulder dystocia. She could get stuck and not have oxygen to the brain.” Just all kinds of problems that they said could happen if I tried to have a vaginal birth with her. 

So from 36 weeks on, I was a basket case. I had a lot of anxiety. I went in at 39 weeks to have another ultrasound and that was when they said she was estimated to be about 10.5 pounds, so we went ahead and scheduled a C-section, but very begrudgingly. I don’t feel like they forced me to, but yet they had some really strong words to say. 

We spoke with several different doctors at our practice and one of them said, “At this point, the risks of having a vaginal birth are higher than the risk of a C-section with her.” One said, “If this were my wife, I would recommend that she would have a C-section.”

Meagan: Ugh, I hate those comments. 

Camden: Yeah. One doctor said, “Maybe you could try for a vaginal birth and maybe she won’t be as big and it will be fine, but if something bad happens, you never forgive yourself.”

Meagan: Mmm. Mmm. 

Camden: I was just thinking, “Yeah, I couldn’t live with myself if something bad did happen to her because I was stubborn and tried to have her vaginally.” And so we went ahead and scheduled the C-section on her due date. I did not go into labor at all. I didn’t have contractions or anything like that. The C-section went fine. She was healthy. She was 9 pounds, 2 ounces, so she was over a pound less than what they estimated, although still on the bigger side of things. 

She was healthy. I was healthy. They had thought I had gestational diabetes and I had been tested so many times. I did not have it, so there was really no explanation for why she was a little bit on the bigger side. Not a family history of it, nothing I did because I kept feeling like I did something wrong. I have PCOS, so that does make you a little bit more at risk for developing gestational diabetes, but they tested me many times and I did not have it. 

I was relieved when she was born healthy and everything went fine, but then I had breastfeeding difficulties. I had a low milk supply and they encouraged me to supplement in the hospital because she had lost weight. It was like, first the problem was that she was too big and now she is losing too much weight. 

It all really psychologically affected me. Even though everything was healthy and safe and there were no complications, and my recovery was also pretty good, I still felt psychologically traumatized from the experience. 

Meagan: Mhmm. Well, and then you felt as though, and this is what my perception of it is, you felt as though you must place blame on yourself for that. You were searching for this reason when like you said, it just happens. Sometimes babies grow bigger. It just happens. 

Camden: Yeah, and I also had this sense, “This is so unfair because I’ve done everything right.” I stayed active during my pregnancy. I watched what I ate in moderation. I took my medication for PCOS. I managed everything and stayed healthy and tried to do everything right, and still just didn’t get the birth experience I wanted. 

And then with the breastfeeding difficulties and low supply persisted, so we supplemented her with formula throughout her life. To keep breastfeeding and pumping with me going back to work and everything I managed to do for 8 or 9 months makes me proud that I kept up with it for that long with her, but all of that contributed to developing postpartum depression/anxiety. 

Like I said, I am a psychologist and therapist. I do therapy in private practice, so I was familiar with those signs and that that is a common occurrence, but as a first-time mom, I didn’t realize that it was more than the baby blues. I was crying every day for several weeks after her birth. I felt like a failure. I felt not good enough. 

I just really grieved my birth experience and also grieved my life before becoming a mom. Even though I loved her, it was just so much responsibility, such a huge life change, and an identity change. It was just a really tough transition. 

Meagan: You know, I feel like I can relate to that so much. It’s not that I didn’t love being a mom and having that role, but the identity change was weird. I was like, “Who am I? Am I mom? Am I Meagan? Am I the return-to-work coordinator at my work? Who am I?” It can really throw you. 

Camden: Yeah, my career had always been so important to me and that had always been where a lot of my identity and value came from, so being on maternity leave was really weird. I went back to work after 8 weeks which now, I wish I had taken more time, but I was almost relieved to go back to work and feel like, “I know what I’m doing here. I’m valuable here and I don’t feel like a failure all of the time,” like I did at home breastfeeding and being a new mom. 

So that was my first birth experience. Yeah. I struggled with postpartum depression and anxiety for quite a while. It took me almost a year before I started seeing a therapist myself who specialized in postpartum mental health. I also took antidepressant medication to help with my mood too. That helped a lot, but really just giving myself time to adjust to being a new mom too. 

Meagan: Good for you. 

Camden: Like I said, I knew I wanted to have a VBAC, so we waited quite a while to try getting pregnant with our second. Of course, the pandemic happened during all of that. I got laid off from the job I was at. I was a college professor when I had my daughter and I got laid off from that, then transitioned to private practice. So starting a new job, all of that led to us waiting a little bit longer than we had planned. 

But as soon as I got pregnant, we interviewed doulas and I switched practices to stay with the gynecologist who had been treating my PCOS for a long time, but who had left the practice I had been at for my first birth. I switched to that practice and I just did a lot of research. I’m somebody who likes to be really prepared. I listened to your podcast a lot which was really helpful. I read a lot of books and had my doula as support. 

Yeah, I listened to your podcast. I started seeing a Webster chiropractor and just really advocated for the birth experience I wanted. I was very clear with my OB that I wanted to try for a VBAC. That was my intention. Setting that goal for myself and putting in as much preparation as I could really helped me feel more empowered. 

I started going to EMDR therapy. I was still seeing my therapist who specializes in postpartum and maternal mental health, but she did not provide EMDR therapy and I actually do not either. It’s something that requires specialized training and certification. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing or EMDR. It’s really the most effective treatment for trauma and one of the most popular ones right now, one of the most requested ones. It’s in high demand. 

My regular therapist referred me to someone for EMDR and I started doing that, but I’m not knowing what to expect. It ended up being, I think, the number one key to my healing from my first birth experience and setting me up for success with my VBAC. 

Even more than having a doula, as wonderful as she was, and even more than– I took a HypnoBirthing class. Those things were all great, but I really attribute my mindset success to the EMDR. 

Meagan: What do you feel like a part of this program and this therapy, what do you feel impacted you the most? Was it processing? Accepting? 

Camden: Yeah, so EMDR is a unique treatment in that you really don’t verbally process your trauma experience a lot. You don’t have to talk about it a lot which is good for people who feel uncomfortable talking about it. It’s really working with brain science to help your brain process the trauma. When it feels stuck in a certain spot, it involves bilateral brain stimulation meaning both hemispheres of the brain, and so I wore these headphones that played sounds in each of my ears going back and forth while the therapist would prompt me to think about times during my birth or to think about statements I believed about myself like, “I am a failure,” and then replacing them with statements like, “I did everything the best that I could. I am the best mother for my baby.” Things like that. 

Yeah, so it’s really working the sides of your brain without a lot of verbal processing, but a big healing part of it for me was actually admitting that my birth was traumatic. I had a hard time just even admitting that because nobody was hurt. Nobody came close to death. She was fine. It wasn’t an emergency C-section. It was scheduled, so I thought, “There are people that have such worse experiences than me. I can’t call this a traumatic birth experience.”

But for me, it was because it overwhelmed my ability to cope. That’s really what we now understand as trauma is anything that overwhelms your nervous system’s ability to cope. It left me with these feelings of powerlessness and helplessness and fear which is what trauma does. You have this sense of, “I’m helpless. I’m not in control.” I felt powerless and just a lot of fear. 

Owning that it was a traumatic experience for me helped put words to it, processing it in EMDR, and then coming up with new ways of how I wanted to cope in my VBAC was a key part of the therapy too. 

Meagan: I just love that. I actually don’t think I realized that it’s not talking it out. I thought it was finding the trigger and then working through that verbally, so I am learning. I’m learning. This is awesome. 

Camden: Yeah. Most therapy is talk therapy and that’s what I do myself as a therapist. It’s processing your memories, talking about them with a therapist, and looking at stuck points or thoughts that are keeping you stuck and replacing those with healthier thoughts. So EMDR does a little bit of that, but it’s really not as verbal. It’s really not telling all of the details of your trauma to the therapist, but thinking about them while you allow your brain to process them. 

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that I’m learning it’s a tool. Learning how to by yourself, solo, work through those, and then learning how to even find out what is triggering or what is affecting you. That’s awesome. Cool. 

Camden: Yeah. Toward the end of my treatment, before I was due, we worked on setting a future template. That’s what she called it. “How do I want to cope and what do I want to think and believe about myself in my future births?” The one that hadn’t happened yet. We did some, “What if I do need a C-section? How am I going to cope with that? What if there is an emergency situation and I’m separated from my husband and my doula? What do I want to believe in how I cope?” 

That ended up being really helpful in my birth experience. 

Meagan: Yeah, I think that’s good. I think sometimes we shy away from the what if’s or other scenarios because we don’t want to think of those. We don’t want to bring those into the atmosphere. We don’t want to bring those into our space, but sometimes it’s really good to plan for X, Y, and Z scenarios. 

Camden: Yeah, for me, I’m already a worst-case scenario type of thinker, so we didn’t go worst, worst case. We didn’t go death, but we did process like I said, if something does go off plan or if I’m separated from my husband, and yeah. That ended up helping because that did happen at my birth. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Camden: So bringing me up to my VBAC now. I went into it with three words of how I wanted to feel. I wanted to feel calm, empowered, and prepared. The preparation was all of the reading, courses, and therapy I did. The empowered– I wanted to speak up and advocate for myself and I wanted to feel calm. I did HypnoBirthing. I had tracks playing during it and I just wanted to really be focused and calm about everything. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Camden: I think I was able to. 

Meagan: I absolutely love that. So you just picked those three words and defined them. 

Camden: Yeah. Those were the three words for me. I was a few days overdue and I had listened to all of your episodes about due dates, so I was getting a little anxious about, “Oh no. If I’m induced, that’s going to lower my chances of success.” I was getting a little anxious and nervous about it, but I did agree to a membrane sweep when I was 40+3 days. That ended up, I think, doing the trick because the next day, I went into labor. 

I saw the doctor on a Wednesday and did the membrane sweep. On Thursday, I was in early labor all day at home. You know, it was every 30 minutes or so, and I was tracking and telling my doula what was going on, but I was still walking around the house and doing stuff. We decided to call my parents to come to spend the night with us in case something happened during the night and then the contractions definitely intensified Thursday night and all through the night. 

I did my HypnoBirthing breathing during the night during my contractions at home. And then Friday morning, I was in my bathtub at home and my water broke. Yeah. I was going through contractions at home. My water broke, and so at that point, we did go to the hospital. Of course, I wanted to wait as long as possible, but when that happened, we felt like it was time. We called my doula. We called my OB, so we went in then which was a Friday morning. 

Meagan: Were things picking up more actively or just went in because of that? 

Camden: Yeah, I would definitely say it was more active. I was having to concentrate and breathe more through them. They were a little bit closer together. They still weren’t probably as close as we had planned, but it seemed to progress fairly fast at that point. Yeah. 

We went to the doctor. I declined the cervical check because I did not want to know how many centimeters I was dilated. I knew that was just either going to frustrate me and discourage me later on or give me false hope. I don’t know. I just didn’t want to know. 

Meagan: Well, and it doesn’t really matter. It really doesn’t. You’re in labor. You’re going to have a baby. Your body will tell you when it’s time to have a baby. 

Camden: Yeah and I was not in a hurry. I just wanted to stay calm and let things come as they came, but the funny thing was when we checked in to the hospital, we had called ahead of time of course, so when we checked in, they said, “Oh, you’re here for the TOLAC” and I said, “No. We are here for a VBAC. We are VBACing.” 

Meagan: I know, right? We talk about this. We actually talk about this in our birth course about TOLAC versus VBAC and just the terminology. You’re like, “No. I’m here to VBAC.” Sometimes, that can really actually throw someone off. It can really throw them off because they are like, “Well, no,” because trying, right? I love that you were like, “No. I’m here to VBAC.” You pushed it aside. Push it aside and be like, “Okay, I get that that’s what you guys call it from a medical standpoint. A TOLAC, a trial of labor after a Cesarean, but I’m here to VBAC, so I’m just going to keep saying that.” 

Camden: Right, yeah. I was very determined and yeah. I labored with my husband, my doula, and a really supportive nurse by my side. She was assigned to us, the nurse, and it ended up being the same nurse who was there when I had my C-section with my daughter in 2018. That felt really redemptive to me because she had actually been really supportive during my C-section, and so kind, so being able to see her and be there with her and her being a part of that experience. She didn’t even remember us but my husband and I remembered her. That was just really cool being able to come–

Meagan: Some familiarity too and it was a positive part of your last birth. 

Camden: It was, yeah. The hospital I was at had one room with a tub, so I requested that room. I got it which was so exciting, but then they saw meconium, is that what it’s called? 

Meagan: Yeah, in the water. Meconium is baby poop. It’s actually a very common thing. We actually had a mom the other day write us and say, “Hey, I had a C-section because when my water broke, there was light meconium.” I was like, “Oh, that’s actually pretty common.”

Camden: Yeah, yeah. They saw that, so they would not let me get in the tub because of that. I guess because of the increased risk of infection. 

Meagan: Yeah. Every hospital has its different policies. Yeah. 

Camden: That was a bummer because I was really looking forward to that. I had used the tub weekly if not more than that at my home during the late weeks of my pregnancy when my back was really killing me and stuff, so that had been very common for me. I did use the shower a little bit. I tried laughing gas, the nitrous oxide. I tried that and I could just not get the hang of it really. The timing of when to breathe it in and the contractions and everything, I just didn’t quite get the hang of that. 

Meagan: Yeah. I used that for my VBAC as well and everyone was like, “Oh, it was working.” I just remember feeling sleepy in between the contractions, but now that I look back I’m like, “Oh yeah, I guess.” I think I should have started when I started feeling them versus when it started hurting. 

Camden: Right, yeah. I just couldn’t get the timing right and of course, at that point, you’re just frustrated in many ways and not thinking clearly, so I kind of gave up on that. I did get checked and I was 6.5 I think at that point, maybe 7 centimeters. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Camden: Yeah. At that point, I did get an epidural. I had been open to it either way. I didn’t go in dead set on an unmedicated birth, but I didn’t go in dead set on one either. I was just kind of, “We’ll see.” I ended up getting one. I don’t regret it. With the epidural I got, I still had some feeling. I could still move around and get on all fours and move side to side, so I wasn’t just flat on my back. I was using the birthing bar on the bed and I could feel when a contraction was coming on, so I asked for uncoached pushing, so I pushed on my own. 

Yeah. I didn’t regret getting it. I think it ended up working out getting the epidural. 

Meagan: Yeah, a lot of people say, “I don’t feel like I can VBAC if I don’t get an epidural,” which, it’s just simply not true. People have VBACs with epidurals all the time. You just have to do what’s best for you. It’s a great tool if that’s a tool that you are needing or desiring. Just know it’s there and if you use it, great. If you don’t, great. It is what it is. Use it if you need to. There’s no judgment. There’s no failing. But with epidurals, we have this weird stigma of failing if we get an epidural. 

I’m like, “Can we please stop? Can we stop?” because it was a great decision it sounds like. 

Camden: Yeah, I think sometimes there is a badge of honor if you had a “natural” birth. I call it unmedicated, not natural. 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. 

Camden: I didn’t feel that way. I was open either way. Yeah. 

At that point, I had been pushing for a really long time. The doctor who was on call– that was the bad thing about the OB practice was that whoever delivered you was whoever was on call. It wasn’t my regular OB that I knew and trusted. The one who was on-call said, “You’ve been pushing for a really long time. Your contractions have really slowed down, so we want to give you some Pitocin to pick them back up.”

They did that and they did pick back up a little bit. I mean, I was really chill. I was doing my HypnoBirthing, my breathing baby down birthing, and uncoached pushing, and the doctor was like, “No. You need to let your nurse coach you. You need to hold your breath and push,” because, in HypnoBirthing, you don’t hold your breath, you breathe down. 

Meagan: Yeah. J breathing.

Camden: Yes. Yes. Yeah, so they wanted me to switch it up and I was okay, but they were like, “You’ve been at this for a really long time.” It had been four hours at that point. I tried it just to see, doing a little bit of a more hold your breath pushing and then went back to my breathing pushing, so I just mixed it up. 

But yeah. So after four hours of pushing, he finally came out. It was so empowering to feel him come out. Even with the epidural, I could feel the head come out, and then I felt the rest of the body. They immediately put him on my chest and it was just the wonderful moment that I had been waiting for. That was the moment I felt like I had been robbed of my daughter with the C-section, just being able to hold him right away, and yeah. 

It just felt so gratifying to be able to do that, to have him on my chest right away, and to know he was safe and to know that I did it. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I can hear the emotion in your voice just right now. It really is. It’s an amazing moment and like you were saying too with an epidural, you can still feel things. There are still pressures. There are still sensations, so it’s really awesome that you got to feel that and redeem that moment that you didn’t get to have last time and have that redemption birth. 

Camden: Yes. Yeah. My husband and I had already decided that this was our last baby too. It was my first and my last vaginal birth experience, so I really wanted that moment. He was fine. After that, I started hemorrhaging. 

Meagan: Yes, from pushing for a while? 

Camden: They thought it could have been from pushing for a long time. I also had second-degree tears so they were stitching that up, but then, of course, the doctor was also concerned about uterine rupture because of all of the bleeding and couldn’t get it under control, so they said, “We’re going to move you to another room where they have better lighting and your husband and doula can’t come with you.” 

That’s why I said I’m glad I prepared for that moment with EMDR because I was able to try to stay calm and remind myself of the words and phrases we had practiced. “I’m safe. I am cared for. These people are all here to take care of me. I’m not alone.” I just kept repeating those to myself as I was not without my support team. 

Meagan: Did they take you to the OR?

Camden: Yeah, I think so. They were stitching and trying to control the bleeding, so at that point, I would have had an epidural even if I hadn’t already had one, so that’s why I said that I didn’t regret it. That was one of the other reasons. 

I was back there, it felt like a long time to me, but my husband said maybe 30 minutes or so. They kept saying, “I don’t know. We might have to open her up. It might be a uterine rupture.” I literally said, “You guys aren’t going to tell me. I just had a healthy baby and you’re still going to open me up?” The whole goal of this was to not have surgery. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Camden: I said, “Can’t you do an ultrasound? Can you look at it?” So they did. They did do an ultrasound. They did not have to open me up thankfully, but they did this thing where they put a balloon up inside. To control the bleeding, they had to put a balloon and I had to keep that in until the next day. 

Yeah, so that was really unpleasant. 

Meagan: Yeah. That is a hard way to end. Being taken away and having that issue. I also had some weird things. I had some weird bleeding after and it was frustrating to feel like, “I just had this amazing birth.” 

Camden: I know. 

Meagan: And then you had this weird ending that was maybe less than ideal, but I mean, look at all that you did before and what it did for you. It prepared you for that very moment and you were probably meant to go through that for some reason so you could help your patients down the road, connect with someone, or share here on this story so someone is like, “Oh, I had that moment too.” 

It’s okay to be bummed that that happened and to be happy for your VBAC. Sometimes things like that happen. Just like every C-section is not butterflies, sometimes every VBAC doesn’t have all of the warm, fuzzy butterflies, right? There are little things here and there that happened. I’m so sorry that you did have that happen, but I’m proud of you for staying strong and still carrying on your words. You advocated for yourself. “Can we just do an ultrasound instead?” You carried on those three words the whole time. 

Camden: Yeah. 

Meagan: That’s something hard to do when you’re alone, so you can be proud of yourself for sure for that. 

Camden: Yeah. I did. I stayed calm and I had prepared for that moment. You’re right. I did feel empowered still that I could speak up and advocate for myself and ask questions. Yeah. I don’t carry the same trauma over that moment even though maybe on paper it seems scarier than my C-section. 

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that. If you look at it then you’re like, “Okay, scheduled C-section, healthy baby, everything’s good,” but then with this one, “pulled away from her support team, by herself, had this procedure done,” it sounds bigger and scarier. 

Camden: Yeah, I think because my baby was right there and he was fine, that gave me a lot of reassurance and I think yeah. The preparation and those phrases of, “I am cared for. I’m not alone. All of these people here are taking care of me.” Just reminding myself of that as there are a dozen people all looking at your vagina. 

Meagan: I know, right? 

Camden: It just helps to remind yourself that they are all here to take care of me. Yeah, so the bleeding, they eventually got it under control. I was able to recover and didn’t have to have a blood transfusion or anything like that, but it did make my recovery more challenging. I think that was my biggest surprise with the VBAC. I had expected the recovery to be so much easier than a C-section recovery. That’s what I had always heard. For me, it wasn’t. It was probably smaller amounts of pain drawn out for a longer amount of time if that makes sense. 

Meagan: Yeah, totally. 

Camden: Yeah, my C-section was more intense pain but a shorter amount of time. The VBAC was, it was hard to sit. It was hard to stand because of the tearing and the swelling. I had a ton of swelling from pushing for four hours, and then I was just weak and low energy because of losing so much blood, so I had to take iron and rebuild that backup. 

It took a lot longer, I think, to physically heal myself again. But emotionally, I was so much better. I was not crying every day. I was not feeling like I don’t know who I am. The transition emotionally for me was so much easier even though I did have some breastfeeding challenges again. It was a low milk supply and I just did all of the things to try to help that. With my first baby, I did them all again with my second and then some. Nothing really seemed to make a difference, so I just had to come to peace with it and accept that, and grieve that my breastfeeding journey was not as I would have liked. 

But yeah. All in all, I would definitely not trade my VBAC for it. It was so worth it and so empowering. Yeah. Just how I was doing emotionally afterward was a world of difference from my first birth experience. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, congratulations. So happy for you. So so happy for you. It’s crazy. It’s crazy how everything can just unfold and like you said, you would expect to bounce back with a VBAC and sometimes you don’t. 

Camden: Yeah, I think that’s helpful to know. I mentioned that in The VBAC Link Community Facebook group. I shared my story there and I’ve mentioned that to people. Don’t think that something is wrong with you if your recovery is harder or in a different way than your first birth. It’s okay. I’m doing pelvic floor PT again, so that’s definitely helped from some of the pain from the tears. I definitely recommend that. 

But yeah. It’s been such an empowering experience overall. Good. Well, I’m so happy for you. I want to talk a little bit about our blog that talks about the third trimester, all about baby weight prediction and third-trimester ultrasounds because you did have that. Like you said, it wasn’t like they said, “Baby is 8 pounds right now,” and then your baby came out 6 pounds. You know, baby was growing and it was somewhat accurate. That’s the hardest thing with these ultrasounds. They can be somewhat accurate, but they can also be really far off. 

I was just going to list a couple of reasons why a care provider may suggest a third-trimester ultrasound. One, because during the 20-week ultrasound which is the big anatomy one where a lot of people find out the gender although people are finding out the gender at 8, 9, and 10 weeks now, but at that one, sometimes the placenta is positioned low and covering the cervix, or called placenta previa. They are going to want to make sure that the placenta did in fact make its way up and get away from the opening of the cervix. That is a valid reason for an ultrasound. That’s a really good reason because if the placenta for some reason did stay and cover the cervix, it needs to be a C-section. We can’t have a baby vaginally for that reason. 

Confirming position. Maybe if we are unable to tell or we are suspecting baby is breech or transverse, that may be something to do. Or if maybe baby was breech and then they did a version and wanted to confirm that baby was head down, that would be a reason. Failed a non-stress test. If there was for some reason there was a non-stress test, which, I’m also learning that some people are getting a million non-stress tests during pregnancy for no real crazy reasons, but if your provider ordered a non-stress test for a medical reason and it was nonreassuring, sometimes they may do an ultrasound to check everything and check fluid and things like that. 

But yeah. They can be effective for monitoring baby’s weight and some medical concerns, but they can be super inaccurate and like you were saying, it can be up to 1-2 pounds plus or minus. So when we hear, “You’re baby is probably going to be 10 pounds,” and you’re like, “Wait, larger?” Because there was one time I went to an ultrasound with a client and they did say that her baby was 10 pounds. 

She was like, “Wait. My baby could be bigger than 10 pounds?” It’s very scary and very daunting. 

So yeah. If your provider is suggesting a third-trimester ultrasound, it’s okay to question. It’s okay to say, “Hey, I don’t want to,” or “Why are we doing this?” and then for them to just schedule a C-section even just without really inducing too, those are not great things. Those are not great reasons. You never even got to labor. Did they even say, “Hey, let’s try?” They didn’t say anything like that? Or was it that you opted for it because you were nervous about that?

Camden: No, they really presented it as the best option because I asked, “Is an induction an option?” They said, “No. We wouldn’t induce a big baby.” 

Meagan: Mmm. 

Camden: I said, “Well, what if I just wait?” But at this point, it was a couple of days before my due date and they checked my cervix. I wasn’t dilated and of course, now I know that doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but at the time, I was thinking, “Oh my gosh. I could be a week away and she’s just going to get bigger.” 

Meagan: Right. 

Camden: Yeah, so it really was presented as the best option, but if I knew then what I know now, I think I would have just waited. 

Meagan: Yeah. Waiting it out or maybe opting for a slow gentle induction and just because the cervix isn’t dilated doesn’t mean they can’t do anything to help get baby here. Oh, man. Yeah. It’s a hard one. It’s a hard one, but like you said and the same thing for me, I wish I knew then what I know now, but I don’t and now I’ve grown and now I’ve got these journeys that I can share. 

I mean, that’s why I’m here. Right? That’s why I’m doing what I’m doing because I’ve been through that and I want to help people know so they don’t necessarily always say, “I wish I knew then what I know now.” Right? 

Camden: Right. 

Meagan: Let’s just know now. Let’s learn now. Yeah, well thank you so much for sharing your stories, and congratulations again. You got me all tingly in the eyes hearing your emotion. You are just amazing and I am so grateful for you being with us today. 

Camden: Thank you. I wanted to just share a resource if anyone wants to look for an EMDR therapist, you can go to emdria.org. It stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing International Association. 

Meagan: Whoa! 

Camden: They have a Find an EMDR Therapist link there. 

Meagan: That was a tongue twister. That’s amazing. I don’t even know how you just said that all. I mean, I can barely read a review on a podcast like that. That was amazing. Okay. Would you mind emailing us that and we will make sure that we will include that in the show notes? 

Camden: Sure. 

Meagan: That would be awesome. Well, thank you again, and have a wonderful day. 

Camden: Thank you, Meagan. Bye. 

Meagan: Bye. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

For her first three births, doctors refused to allow Rachel to go into labor and pushed for scheduled C-sections. Rachel knew the risks involved with being plus-sized and potentially having large babies, but she just wanted someone to give her a chance. 

With her fourth pregnancy, Rachel knew she needed to pursue birth on her own terms. She found a supportive community, prepared with extensive research, and hired a very experienced, VBAC-friendly home birth midwife. After weeks of prodromal labor, Rachel was able to deliver her baby girl at home without any complications. She finally felt safe and protected in her birthing space. Rachel found redemption, healing, and confidence both in her body and in herself.

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: Plus Size Birth

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is where you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan and I just can’t even begin to tell you about this episode that is coming your way. You guys are going to love it. Like, seriously love it. As we were talking a little bit before we started recording, I was dying. I was sitting here taking notes. 

Let me just tell you, our friend Rachel here has been through so much. Everything. I mean, seriously. There are all of the things. Plus-sized mama, a big baby, VBAC after three C-sections. I should say HBAC after three C-sections. Let’s see. A bait and switch. So many things, oh my gosh. So many things. 

I’m not going to take too much time right now because I really want to turn the time over to her. Just in the ten minutes that I was talking to her a little bit about her stories, I was dying. I was dying. I was like, “Okay. We have to start her recording because everyone needs to hear this.” 

Review of the Week

Meagan: We are going to dive into it, but of course, I have a Review of the Week. If you have not had a moment to leave us a review, we would love it. We would absolutely love it. You can leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Google Play. I think maybe Spotify. You can email us at [email protected]. You can just Google us. Send us a message on Instagram or Facebook. Wherever it may be, we would love your reviews and we would love to read them on the podcast. 

Today’s review is from Kim.Aboo and this is on Apple Podcasts. Her topic is “Prepping for My VBAC.” It says, “My first pregnancy, I elected for a C-section for my twins. In my second current pregnancy, I was very indecisive on whether I wanted to VBAC or not. My provider actually brought it up to me. Upon doing more research, I came across The VBAC Link’s Insta. At 22 weeks pregnant, I decided that I’m going to VBAC. In one of your episodes, the mom said, ‘I had to trust my body. Know you can do it and believe in yourself.’ That empowered me and I told myself, ‘I can do it.’

“I have been listening to all of the episodes ever since, doing the research, prepping my body through exercise, squats, chiropractic care, and everything else I have heard. I am excited and I look forward to it. My baby is due in August and I will let you know how it goes. I have to say thank you, thank you, thank you for your podcast, Insta page, and the wealth of information you share.” 

Well, thank you, Kim. And guess what? It’s actually August right now as we are recording, so Kim, if you are still listening, we would love to know how the birth went either way. This is one thing I want to emphasize about this podcast. Yes, we are sharing stories about VBAC and we encourage VBAC. We want people to know their options about VBAC. However, we also know that CBACs happen and that is okay too. Sometimes, we also know that they are desired and that is also okay too. 

I just want you to know that if you have a CBAC, we still want to share your story. We still want to hear your story and we want you to know that you are a woman of strength. We are so happy for you and proud of you. 

Rachel’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Rachel. I am so excited. I’m not kidding you. I saw your post. It kind of went viral on all sorts of pages and I was like, “She has to. She has to be on the podcast.” I got chills reading and like I was telling you before we started recording, I can’t wait to hear it from your, from your voice, and from yourself because I feel like when you are reading it, you put your own emotion and emphasis and tone into it, but I can’t wait to hear yours. 

And then like I said, just before we were recording, listening to all of the things you’ve been through. You are flipping incredible. I just want you to know that I am so honored that you are here with us today to share your stories. So without further ado, I’m going to turn the time over for you to blow everyone’s minds. 

Rachel: All righty. So a little introduction of myself, my name is Rachel Richard. I currently live in Oklahoma. I was born and raised here. I’ve been married to my husband, Dennis, now for going on 8 and a half years. We’ve known each other for about ten and we just had our fourth little baby on August 6th. 

I should say, big baby, not little. 

Meagan: A perfect, perfect-sized baby. 

Rachel: Yes. So a little back story on how I came to my fourth home birth after 3 C-sections. My very first one, I was 20 years old. It was my first pregnancy. I had a great pregnancy. It was very normal with no complications at all. But come 40 weeks and 2 days, I had my routine weekly checkup with my OB and they started noticing that my blood pressure was slightly elevated. Nothing concerning, but they did test my urine and I did have protein in my urine. 

The fear-mongering started. He brings me into his office which is outside of regular exam rooms. It was just his office. We sat down, my husband and I, and he basically says that with my weight and the fact that I wasn’t dilated at 40 weeks and 2 days that it would more or less be an uphill battle for labor. Our induction methods, I guess, would be limited based on what he was telling me because I wasn’t dilated. 

By then, I was over being pregnant. It was my first pregnancy. I didn’t really know that having one C-section would lead to the cascade of issues I’ve had since then so, unfortunately, I was like, “Yeah. Let’s have a baby!” Two and a half hours later after my appointment, he quote-on-quote “fit me in after the twins”, so I literally drove directly from the doctor’s office to the hospital and they started prepping me, essentially, for the delivery. 

Completely no complications. It was a great delivery. I had no negative feelings toward it. I was happy I had a baby. I had a great recovery. I was up and doing everything normal after baby. Probably within two weeks, I felt like it was great. I do have an apron belly, so I did have some discomfort. I couldn’t lay on my side and things like that. I basically lived in the recliner for the first few weeks which is fine, but a great baby. She was only 6 pounds, 9 ounces. 

Meagan: Oh, teeny. 

Rachel: She was tiny. I was a 10-pound baby. All my mom’s babies were 10 pounds, so we were expecting a larger baby, but all of her ultrasounds were in the office by my OB, so I never had an actual tech do any of those, so all of his measurements were not accurate. He stopped measuring her at 34 weeks or whatever because she was just in weird positions. We don’t really know when she stopped growing or if she really tracked to be that small. Not really sure. It is possible that I did have preeclampsia and she did have some delayed growth there, but who’s to say? Maybe she’s just a small baby. 

But anyways, other than her size, it was a great pregnancy. She was healthy. We had some breastfeeding issues, but otherwise, she was great. 

Fast forward to my second pregnancy, they are 2 years and 10 days apart, so I waited for a little over 15 months and got pregnant with my second. Great pregnancy. I was actually researching midwives and got turned away from several midwife groups due to my BMI which I understood. It wasn’t a big deal. They have regulations they have to follow. It’s whatever, but they did refer me to a VBAC-friendly, size-friendly provider. I had a great experience with her. I still like her to this day. I just have some issues with the end of my pregnancy because I was bait and switched, unfortunately. 

I was one of those people that had a great experience, was told I was going to have this most amazing VBAC ever, and then come 38 weeks, she pulls out her VBAC Calculator online. Just that, “Your chances of a VBAC are less than 25%.” Blah, blah, blah all because of my weight, I would need a C-section.

Meagan: You’re 38 weeks. At 38 weeks. 

Rachel: Yeah, and then she was like, “Well, and I like my VBAC moms to deliver by 39 weeks and you haven’t started dilating yet.” Basically the same spiel as the first one that my chances are a lot lower because my body isn’t ready, blah blah blah. He was also larger. I was seeing a perinatologist the entire time because of my suspected preeclampsia that happened two hours before my first child’s delivery. 

That is tracked on all of my records, so they had me see that doctor just to make sure I didn’t have it again. I didn’t. I had to take a lot of their testing more than once because I feel like they were looking for an issue based on my weight, that I was going to have gestational diabetes or preeclampsia or whatever and I never had any of that. It was a perfect pregnancy, a perfect baby, and never had any issues. I did have a lot of NSTs and a lot of ultrasounds with that pregnancy. All of that was normal. 

Meagan: Do you feel like looking back that those were maybe some red flags or do you feel like they were all warranted? 

Rachel: Going from my third pregnancy, honestly, that was the reason. They were unwarranted. I felt like they were excessive and unnecessary. 

Meagan: Yes. That’s a lot. 

Rachel: I get it that you are wanting to do that, but once you start to see that there’s nothing wrong, I feel like they should have stopped and I felt like they got more frequent. In several of the appointments, I intentionally didn’t go because I was just like, “I literally had one a week before and everything was fine. I feel fine and nothing has changed,” kind of things. It was really more annoying to me because I wasn’t working at the time, but I had another child at home who was less than two years old and I had to find childcare because my husband was working or bringing her with me which is chaos. 

That was very annoying and that’s kind of what led me to my fourth being unassisted was the delivery of my second. Basically, at 38 weeks, she was like, “You are not dilated. I’ll have you come in again and we’ll check you at 38.5.” It was a Monday at 38 weeks, and then on Friday, she checked me again. Of course, nothing had changed magically in 5 days. So she was like, “I like to deliver by 39 weeks.” Blah, blah, blah. I was just like, “Are you serious? I don't have a chance?” I cried in her office and I was very upset because I felt like I was bait and switched.

I didn’t know that terminology at the time, but I was like, “You’ve been telling me all of these rainbows and butterflies for the last 38 weeks and now the whole script has changed.” I was just very blindsided by it. There was a term I used to use and I can’t remember what I used to say. It will probably come to me in a little bit, but I was devastated basically because I researched this lady. I had gone through and I was like, “I’m getting my vaginal birth. I’m getting it. That’s what is going to happen this time.” And unfortunately, I felt like all of my options were stripped from me and that the only option I had at that point was another C-section. I was so devastated. 

At 38.5, she basically said, “We’re going to schedule you for a C-section on Monday.” We got home and that appointment was early afternoon. When I got home, we started talking with my husband and I was like, “You know what? Why delay the inevitable? If you’re saying I can’t do anything. Nothing is going to change between 39 and 39 and a day because I think she scheduled me for Monday. I called back and I was like, “If you guys aren’t just going to let me have a vaginal birth, why don’t you just take him at 39 weeks?”

I called them back and they scheduled me for first thing Sunday morning because I was like, “I’m not going to wait for two more days or for one more day for a C-section when you already said you wanted to take him.” I was just like, “You know what? Take him Sunday morning.” He was born. He was 9 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks exactly. He would have easily been close to what my fourth was if he kept baking until he was ready, but perfect baby. Perfect delivery. 

I had a rough recovery. Rough. My incision didn’t close for about 4 weeks and after it did close, I had multiple rounds of antibiotics because it just oozed and oozed. Once it did close, I had several seromas that developed and we were concerned that they were abscesses, so I had several ultrasounds to rule that out. I was afraid that I was going to have to be cut back open. It was rough and with having two babies, my daughter had just turned two and my daughter is delayed. Delayed I say. Developmentally she wasn’t, but in speech she was. I didn’t really have any communication with her. They were both still in diapers. 

It was like having two babies. I was also breastfeeding both of them because my daughter was still nursing full-time, so I was tandem feeding all day long. Horrible pain, it was a rough recovery. I knew after that one that I did not want another C-section ever. Unfortunately, I did end up having a third. 

With that recovery, it took about 7 total weeks until I was back to normal and not in any pain. My incision was healed, but it was the polar opposite of my first, and I was not expecting it, so I didn’t have anything in place other than the fact that I had a recliner that I lived in basically for a month. 

Fast forward again a little over, so they are two and a half years apart, it was April. I had waited almost 2 years to get pregnant with my third. At that point, I knew that I did not want another C-section. I was going a different route. I was like, “I’m just going to have a home birth because obviously, the hospital is not going to let me do what I want to do.” I contacted a midwife who was actually the midwife I used this time with my fourth, but I was going the free birth, unassisted route with my third because I just felt like I could do it on my own. 

I was like, “You know what?” I hated everything about my second’s prenatal care. I felt like it was all unnecessary, and so I was just like, “You know what? I’ll just go unassisted. I’ll have the baby unassisted and I can do this. It’s totally fine.” I went 42 weeks and a day completely unassisted. I did have one ultrasound at 26 weeks when we found out that he was a boy. Everything was normal. I really did that for two things: to know the placental placement and make sure that there wasn’t any kind of Previa. 

Meagan: Yeah, especially with what you were planning. 

Rachel: I didn’t want anything to be interfering with that. Everything was perfect. He was fine. Measuring fine. Everything developmentally was great. There weren’t any red flags on his health or mine, so I felt comfortable with that. It was the only ultrasound and the only prenatal care I had up until the day before he was born. 

Everything was great. I had friends over. I had several weeks of random days of prodromal labor that would last 14-17 hours. Knowing what I know now after my fourth if I would have known because I didn’t know what a contraction felt like. I never had contractions with my first two, so going into my third, prodromal labor felt like labor to me because I hadn’t felt what a real contraction was. So every time I started having consistent contractions, I would call my doula over, call my friends over, call the birth photographer over, expecting it to go anywhere, but unfortunately, it went nowhere. 

It really wasn’t painful, so that’s another red flag for me knowing what I know now. If I would have had somebody there, I mean, yes. My doula was there, but she couldn’t feel what I was feeling and it was just one of those things. I just kept getting my hopes and kept getting my hopes up and kept getting my hopes up for several days and it led nowhere. 

My best friend at the time and the photographer both go out of town for the weekend of 42 weeks. I turned 42 weeks on Friday. They both leave town, and so I’m just feeling abandoned basically. 

Meagan: Yeah. I was going to say, feeling alone. 

Rachel: Yeah, alone and not necessarily scared, but the unknown was there and I was just like, “Can I do this fully alone?” And knowing that my husband– he’s a great guy and all, but he’s not very supportive when I’m in pain or anything like that, so I knew I couldn’t count on him during the birth. Any kind of trauma, my son cut his finger this past week and he was freaking out. He’s not one of those people that can keep calm, so I knew he was going to cause more of a problem for me if it was just me and him. I knew I needed somebody else. 

I did have my doula. She’s a great girl and I went to school with her in elementary school, but we didn’t reconnect until my pregnancy. So there’s a big gap in our lives that we didn’t really have time to catch up on. She was a friend of mine, but it wasn’t that close relationship that I would have needed to feel confident in my own abilities. I knew I needed somebody to support me. I don’t know why, but I expected to get support from nurses and staff at a hospital. 

Little did I know, that wasn’t going to happen. At 40 weeks on my due date, I also had family and stuff barking down my neck because I’d had two C-sections. 

Meagan: You hadn’t had a baby yet. 

Rachel: Yeah, and that. It was 42 weeks. I had two C-sections previously. Everybody was like, “What are you doing?” And so at 42 weeks exactly, I went to the hospital by myself which I should have never done. I went by myself. I walked in and was like, “I just need to have an ultrasound to check baby’s position.” Blah, blah, blah. 

They sent me up to triage in labor and delivery. Everybody is looking at me like I have five heads because they are asking me who my OB is and I tell them that I don’t have one and I don’t have any prenatal care at 42 weeks with two previous C-sections. They think I’m a nut job and I can hear them whispering behind the sheets and stuff because it was just a triage room. I didn’t even get a room. They did an NST. Everything was fine. They did an ultrasound. Everything was fine aside from their wanting to scare me with calcification on the placenta which is normal. Everything was fine. He was still head down. He was in a great position. 

Then, I was just like, “Okay cool. I’ll just go home.” I should have just gone home and gone to bed, but I didn’t. They basically cornered me in the room with two nurses and the OB there and were like, “We don’t want you to leave without having a C-section. You should have a C-section today.” I was there by myself. I was like, “You know what? Let me call my husband because I don’t feel comfortable right now. I can’t make a decision basically.” I ended up signing an AMA. I told them that I was going to go to another hospital where I delivered my second. 

I signed that and so I was like, “You know what? I’m just going to go there. They’re going to allow me to have a VBAC. Everything will be fine.” No. I get to the hospital. Checked in. I’m in a labor and delivery room. They check me. I’m a 3.5 which is the most I’ve ever been dilated and I was so happy. 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s a great starting point.

Rachel: Right. Right, I thought so. The nurse was even like, “That’s good.” Her eyes perked up a little and she went to go get the OB. He still said, “We’re not going to induce you. We’re not going to give you anything.” I didn’t want Pitocin because of the additional risk of uterine rupture. I was 42 weeks. I had two C-sections. That wasn’t something that I wanted, but I was like, “Give me a Foley bulb or give me something. Or just give me time.” I felt that because I hadn’t had prenatal care, I didn’t want to sign an AMA a second time, just because I didn’t want any DHS or anybody else trying to get involved just because of my choice of how I wanted to do things. 

In my head, I was in this battle of, “I don’t want a C-section. That’s the last thing I want, but I also don’t feel comfortable going home.” I felt the need to stay, but at the same time, I was getting brick-walled by these providers that were saying, “No. There’s no option.” Even with my doula there asking them hundreds of questions of, “Can I do this? What about this?”

I was having contractions, but they weren’t consistent at the time. I wasn’t in active labor, and so they couldn’t really do anything besides give me time which they weren’t going to do because I was 42 weeks and I’d had two C-sections. I needed to be delivered now in their heads. 

Meagan: Yeah, even though nothing was saying that. 

Rachel: Nothing was wrong. Baby and I were fine. There were no issues, but this provider was just stone-walled. He was not changing his mind even after finding out what I was dilated to. Didn’t change anything. I just was again, devastated. Like, “What do you mean I have no option? You’re totally ripping it away basically.” In my head, I still felt like I was able to. There was nothing dire that was happening that would prevent me, but I was still being told, “No. It’s not an option.” 

I, unfortunately, went along with it and signed the documents to have another C-section. It happened the morning after because they needed more OBs on staff. I ended up having a total of four surgeons during my C-section, my third C-section which probably was a great idea because I had a lot of scar tissue with all of the seromas and the rough recovery from my second. There was a lot of scar tissue that was in the way and whatnot that they had to cut away. 

It took about 40 minutes to get to my son during that delivery. He did have to be intubated in the OR, but by the time they get down the hall going to the NICU, he had already pulled out the tube. It didn’t last long and he was fine. He had to be, based on their protocol, on oxygen for a certain amount of time, and then they were able to pull him off and whatnot. I didn’t get to hold him until a little after he was 24 hours old. That was rough. 

After he got out and they cut away all of the scar tissue, they put me back together and everything was fine. I healed amazingly and I had a great recovery with that one. He was 9 pounds, 9 ounces at 42 weeks and a day. He was technically smaller than my second son who was 9 pounds, 3 ounces at 39 weeks. We were expecting him to be bigger honestly but he wasn’t. He was a great chunky baby and healthy. Everything was great with him after the initial shock of it all. His issues with breathing initially very well could have been from those four surgeons putting all of that weight on me during delivery and getting him out. 

After all of that, I decided that enough was enough. I told my midwife when I first contacted her that I will never step foot in a hospital again unless there is a true emergency because I just don’t ever want to be in that position where I feel like somebody is revoking an option that is still a valid option. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Rachel: That feeling of your brain telling you, “You can do it. What are you talking about? You can do it,” but then everybody else in the room is saying, “No. You can’t.” It’s like I was forced in a way and unfortunately, that’s just the way that it was. After that, I just knew that if I were to have a fourth, it would be a redeeming, healing birth and I wasn’t allowing anyone or anything to get involved. 

It was November of last year, I found out I was pregnant. I was actually going through a weight-loss program because I was planning on having weight-loss surgery and I found out I was pregnant, so we put all of that on hold. I contacted my midwife immediately and she said basically that there was nothing that was going to get in the way. She was totally on board. She tells me now that even though I didn’t hire her for my third, as a midwife, she felt like she failed me in that birth because she wasn’t involved in the end. 

If she would have known that I was in that position, she would have stepped in. I wish I would have reached out to her, but I didn’t unfortunately. But with my fourth, I had her involved the entire pregnancy. I had prenatals with her. I was actually going to an OB just so that insurance could cover the initial ultrasounds because I did want with it being my third, again, I wanted to make sure that everything was fine. Everything was fine. 

At 22 or 23 weeks, I just ghosted that OB because as soon as they started saying, “We’re going to do this at the next appointment for the baby,” I’m just like, “Nope. You’re not telling me to do nothing.” I did their blood tests, but I never did anything else. I never did the glucose. I never did any of the other testing or vaccines or anything that they were pushing on me. I just wasn’t going to have that. 

So I ghosted them and we continued our prenatal visits with the midwife. Everything was great. I actually wasn’t going to find out what we were having. I did get the blood test results at 12 weeks and I told my closest friends, but my husband and I didn’t know. I was in this position where I was going to tell all of them because I had a girl and then two boys. So I was like, “If it’s a boy,” and in my head, I was convinced that it was a boy.

I was like, “I’m just going to have another boy. I have everything for the boys. It’s fine.” I kept everything, but then in my head, I’m like, “If it’s a girl, I’m screwed. I’ve got to start over from scratch.” I was like, “Well, if I find out now,” in my head, it was already a boy, so I was just in this battle. I was like, “Do I wait or do I not? It would be the greatest surprise of life if I wait until birth.” But at the same time, I knew that if it was going to be a girl, which, in my head, it wasn’t going to be, I was going to have to start over. I was going to panic. I want to be prepared for a girl if it is a girl because I want to buy all of the things. 

So I tell my friends. They all find out. Nobody spills the beans to me, and then I started getting these little inklings in the weeks. I waited four months before I found out after we had the results. I could have known by the click of a button, but I didn’t. I refrained, but I started getting these inklings of, “It might just be a girl.” I found a massive amount of clearance girls' stuff for a dollar each at Walmart. Little things. I’m like, “Mmm, it might just be a girl,” and I bought all of it. 

I was like, “It’s probably a boy, but I’ll buy it all just in case.”

Meagan: Just in case, yeah. 

Rachel: All of my friends are trying not to give it away because I told them all. You know, if it’s a boy, it’s fine. I’ll still use them. Most of it was towels and things like that. I didn’t know anybody who was having a girl. I just thought I would donate it if it was a girl. My friend took me out to lunch. I decided, “Do a reveal to me somehow because that way it is still a surprise and I won’t be disappointed if it is one way or another.” 

I was going to love the baby the same. I’ve had two boys and a girl, so I had the experience of both. So I was like, “Whatever it is, it is. Nothing is going to change whether I find out today or in two or three months when he or she is born.” In my head, it was still a boy. We went out to lunch and my friend called the bartender over to make a virgin drink in the color that it was going to be. 

Meagan: Aww, that’s cute. 

Rachel: We went to lunch and she took a picture of me when I found out. I bawled. I looked at her because I thought she ordered it for herself. She orders drinks for herself. She just starts looking at me and staring at me as soon as the bartender set the drink down. She was like, “Do you know what this means?” I was like, “What? What kind of drink did you get?” She was like, “Do you know what this means?” I was like, “Wait. Is it a girl?” And I just started bawling. I was like, “No it’s not. It’s not a girl. There’s no way.” 

We wanted a girl so bad. Having two of each would perfectly end everything. I was convinced that it wasn’t. I was like, “This has to be wrong,” and immediately, before we even left that little diner, I called and had a same-day ultrasound scheduled with a private ultrasound place to confirm that it was a girl. We went straight over there and sure enough, it was a girl. 

I was like, “I still don’t believe it. I really don’t.” In my head, it was so clear as day that it was going to be a boy. I think, in my head, I was doing that to make myself feel better because I knew I wanted a girl so badly. That was exciting. 

We got a girl. Our fourth is a girl. I had a great pregnancy. I did start prodromal labor again, unfortunately, probably around 37 weeks. I knew I had started to drop because she started to “disappear” every time I took a picture. I had no belly anymore. People were like, “Did you have the baby already?” I’m like, “No, still pregnant. She’s just hiding.” Even my midwife was hopeful that it was an indication that I was going to go early. Unfortunately, that didn’t happen. 

I actually tested positive for COVID the week of my due date. 

Meagan: Of course. 

Rachel: And the AC in our house went out. This is the middle of July. We were out of our house. We were in a hotel for three nights and then four more nights at my in-laws’ house. This was the week of my delivery or the week of my due date. So I was like, “Uh-uh.” I was very upset by the fact that I could possibly have a random hotel or my in-laws' address on the birth certificate and that was wigging me out. 

I was like, “No. I built this house that we live in. I want the address on the birth certificate to be our home. I want to deliver at home.” The thought of having my first delivery at some random location, I think, put me off. I didn’t really have any prodromal labor, thank God, during the week that we were away from home and nothing really happened. 

We get back home the week of 41 weeks. That Tuesday after we got back, I mowed my lawn with my zero-return mower and the bumpiness of it started more prodromal labor. Really, it’s like it never went away, though. My prodromal labor was really like early labor but took forever. 

It started that night. The next day, I was 40 weeks and 4 days on a Wednesday. I had a little baby shower with my office at my real estate office because I’m a real estate agent here locally. We had a little baby shower that week and I lost my mucus plug before I left the office, part of it. Every day after that, I would lose more of it, and then that Sunday after, I was 41 and 2 days. I lost some bloody show. 

Meagan: You started having bloody show, yeah. 

Rachel: Yeah, but every day I was having these contractions usually at night. They were painful. It wasn’t until I started losing my bloody show that they started to wrap around my back. That last week was pretty miserable. I wasn’t sleeping. I couldn’t lie down. The last few days, I couldn’t lie down on my side anymore because every time I would lay on my side, it was very frequent which was great that it was progressing, but I just needed relief. 

I was changing positions. My favorite position, which was kind of silly, was the only position I could find. I have a picture of me sitting on my ball leaning up to the end of my bed with a pillow behind my head. I was sitting, it was almost like I was in a recliner which, I wish we had a recliner here but we don’t. I was sitting on the birth ball with my feet on the ground and leaning back onto my bed. I was able to get 20-30 minute breaks between contractions. That’s the only time I slept for the last four days in that position because it just never ended.

Any time I was up and awake and doing stuff throughout the day, I was still getting the kids ready. I have three other kids here and was still doing daily activities, but the last couple of days, I was so exhausted and miserable that I just was reclused in my room. I didn’t open my door. I didn’t want to do anything besides have a baby. I was miserable, tired, uncomfortable, and in pain. I was in and out of the bath. I took several baths a day, but when the contractions would get going, I wasn’t comfortable there anymore. 

It wasn’t until, I’d have to look back at my text messages with my midwife, but two days before I actually had her, I really thought I was going to go into labor because I just had this shift in feeling where I was having a lot of back labor, a lot. It was only happening in my back in a way. I could handle my front cramping, but my back was uncontrollable. I just wanted to cry. No position was comfortable. The same thing, I couldn’t sleep. I get through it. I get breaks here and there. 

The night before I had her, I literally didn’t sleep at all. I didn’t have any breaks between contractions. I stayed awake. I was pretty miserable. I was laid up in the morning and all afternoon. I didn’t leave my bed. I put on those little diaper things. I didn’t even care. I was going to pee on myself. I didn’t care. I didn’t want to move. I just sat on my bed and leaned up against some pillows and this rubber dinosaur thing that my kids had. It was kind of in the shape of a peanut ball. It’s about the same size. I would lean up against that on the wall of my bed. 

I basically sat there for hours. I basically laid there watching TV and just contracting the entire time. I was moaning through some of them, but it wasn’t until I got up to go to the bathroom that I felt something. I was like, “Mmm, that’s weird.” I got up. It was probably about 1:00. I go to the bathroom and I wipe and I feel my bag bulging. I feel it. 

Meagan: Ooh. Oh. 

Rachel: Yeah, feel it bulging. It wasn’t all the way out, but I could feel it there. I was like, “Oop.” I texted the midwife and I was like, “You probably should come over because the bag is bulging.” That was my first sure sign that it was happening soon. That was the first time that I was like, “Okay. The end is near. I can start to feel excited again,” because I was just in this dread of in-between contractions of just no relief and annoyed that it was taking so long. 

It was 42 weeks and a day, finally felt some progress. My bag starts bulging at 1:00 and I’m excited, telling everybody, updating everyone, and then probably about an hour and a half later, the midwife gets there. She’s trying to get me into a good mental state, getting all of the kids out of the house. My dad ended up taking the kids and my other three. My roommate here took her two boys and they went fishing and did some other stuff, and got out of the house, so that really helped with the chaos. 

I was able to relax a little bit more. It got quiet. I turned on some music. I was in and out of the bath. I just couldn’t get comfortable. I really wanted a water birth, but I was really just trying to focus on following my body, listening to what I needed, and getting comfortable where I was. 

Meagan: However you could. 

Rachel: Yeah, really. The only place, again, that I could get comfortable was on my birth ball. I spent pretty much the entire time there. My midwife did leave and sat in the driveway for a little bit because she feels like in a way, that birth is to be undisturbed as far as her presence. She sometimes feels like she doesn’t need to be there. So she did sit in the driveway for a little while just to give me time alone. I didn’t mind that, but I was texting her and she was like, “Anytime you want me to come back, just let me know.” I was like, “I enjoy the company.” 

My husband was in the other room playing a game. Like I said, anytime I’m in pain and whatnot, he’s just not good. In fact, he still hasn’t watched the birth videos. He won’t. I’m going to get him to one of these days just to have him see it all. He was there when it happened, but he didn’t want to see anything. 

So around 3:45, I get in the bath while the midwife was in the driveway and I noticed and felt that my water bag was out further. It was sticking out. I could feel it from the outside. I was curious about it. I kept telling my midwife, “It’s still bulging and I can feel it.” At that time, she was kind of skeptical. She was like, “Are you sure it’s the bag? Or whatever.” I was like, “No, I’m pretty sure. It feels like a water balloon to me.” It was squeaky-rubbery. In my head, that’s how I felt like it was. 

I get my phone to take a picture and I took a video because I couldn’t reach the button, so I have a video of my bags bulging. As soon as I get the phone down there, it pops and bursts, so I have a video of my bags bursting. 

Meagan: That’s amazing. 

Rachel: Yeah, so I have a quick video of that. I was shocked, but yeah. I posted that before the baby was even born on our unassisted group on Facebook and everybody was like, “Oh my god, I’ve never seen that before.” A lot of people haven’t ever even seen a bag. Most bags break when they are still inside or it will be when the head is right there. There was nothing there, but it was pretty cool. 

My midwife said that she was googling, “How dilated do you have to be to have your bags so far out?” We had no idea. We didn’t do any cervical checks or anything like that. It was all just a guessing game, but that was probably about 3:45-4:00 when my bags officially burst. 

And then after that, it was just kind of like, “Okay. Now it’s really going to happen today.” Again, I wasn’t really crying or in a lot of pain. I mean, it was uncomfortable, but I had a very– to me, in my head, vaginal delivery, I guess because of the media and all of the videos and stuff I’ve seen, I thought I was going to be more vocal and in a lot more pain. I thought it was going to be more exaggerated than it was. To me, it felt like it was just going to keep going. I was expecting it to increase or intensify, but I think also that the days and days and days of prodromal labor numbed me to it all maybe. I don’t know. 

In my head, I was like, “I’ve got a long way to go. This is not that bad,” but my midwife started to notice certain cues as I was laboring like different sounds I was making and things like that that she knew that we were getting close. But again, to me, it was all the same. It was no different. I couldn’t distinguish one contraction that was more intense than the other or anything like that. I just sat on my birth ball and leaned onto the wooden vanity that I had in my bathroom. The crease in the wood on the shelf was hitting me in the palm, kind of like how people use the comb technique. That’s kind of how I used it in a way to counter any kind of pain I was feeling. 

My midwife was sitting in front of me. She actually had a folding chair we got her and she was sitting in the shower. We have a curb-less shower. She was facing me and taking notes. Her assistant was texting her and she was just giving her updates. I have all of those screenshots. It’s really cute to see, “She’s a warrior.” They were just hyping me up through text. It was so cool. 

I didn’t get to see any of those until after the birth and she sent me everything. She was taking pictures of me during contractions and little videos and stuff because she knew I was going to want that, but also, it was helping her little intern learn through my experience too. 

We get through– it was probably 8:00ish by the time I just couldn’t get comfortable. I felt like I needed to get off of the ball. I was going to get in the bath. That lasted all of three seconds and I drained the water. I was like, “Not going to happen.” I couldn’t sit. I couldn’t lean. I couldn’t do anything in the water. I was not comfortable so I immediately got out. I tried to sit on the toilet and the contractions were way too intense. I couldn’t do it. I wanted to crawl up the wall. 

I had my husband lean in front of me and I couldn’t even get up off the toilet because every time– that’s when I knew that things were progressing really fast. I needed to get comfortable as soon as I could. I tried to sit back on my ball and I was comfortable, but I felt like the pressure– I needed to get off my butt. I moved onto my bed and as soon as I got on my knees and pillows in front of me, I just started feeling the urge to push. It all started probably at about 9:00-9:15.

I only pushed for about 15 minutes. In the last five minutes or so, her head was out, but we were trying to get her shoulders out. My midwife reached in just to check to see if there was a cord around the neck or anything like that. There wasn’t a cord, but as soon as she stuck a couple of fingers in to check for the cord, her shoulder popped out and she just shot out. 

It was at 9:31 when she was born. Immediately following her, my midwife says, was three gallons of water. It came in waves. Unfortunately, I didn’t have a mattress protector on my mattress, so that was a regret, but it’s fine. They used literally every towel in the house and every chux pad that we had left and it was still seeping through my bed. They tried. 

As soon as they got her out, she was fine. She was crying right away, but when I went to turn over from my knees to my back, I turned over without them realizing that I was turning over and my midwife was holding the baby. When I turned over, her cord snapped, so it was kind of this quick, frantic, “Get the cord clamp!” My husband was standing in the corner and I just remember looking at him. He was panicked. He was like, “Oh my god.” He was traumatized by the last three C-sections.

With my third, when he followed the baby to the NICU, he turned to me and said, “Please don’t die.” He was traumatized. I think, after my third, I knew that not only could I not have another C-section, I couldn’t put my husband through it. I felt bad the moment after my fourth was born that I was now traumatizing him again. But this time was all under control. They just got the clamp. It was fine. 

As soon as I got turned over, they moved the baby to me. Within five to ten minutes, the placenta came out. Everything was fine. Everything went great. I didn’t have any bleeding really. I barely tore. Probably about 30 minutes after she was born, we weighed her. We all took our guesses. I was guessing 9,7 only because my birthday is September 7th and I was like, “My boys were 9. I’ll just do it in the middle.” 

And no. From the moment she came out, my midwife was like, “This is an 11-pound baby.” I said, “No way. Absolutely no way, an 11-pound baby.” Everybody else in the room was guessing in the 9’s, low 10’s. We get out the scale and sure enough, she’s 11,1. My midwife was like, “I told you.” I didn’t believe it. After the midwife left, I had my husband hold her and weigh her on the scale, then put her down and weigh on the scale again and sure enough, she was 11 pounds. I was like, “What!” 

I was like, “Did I really just do that and didn’t even really tear?” Within a few days, I didn’t even feel the tear anymore. It was already healed. And so, yeah. Honestly, it took me several days. It still doesn’t really hit me now, but I had the birth that I’ve always wanted. I feel like I was expecting it to be worse. I know that it sounds weird, but I was expecting to have to scream, cry, or be in excruciating pain. I was expecting there to be more going on, but it was like this, not an out-of-body experience, but I felt like I was living through someone– maybe it was out-of-body. I was expecting more of it. 

After it was done, I was like, “That’s it?” You know? Like, “That’s all?”

Meagan: That’s all? Wait. 

Rachel: Yeah. I just was expecting more. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s just because in my head, I’ve worked it up for so many years expecting this and I watched so many birth videos and things like that. I just wanted to so badly, but in my head, it was going to go such a different way. I mean, it was great, but I was expecting more as in it to be worse. 

Meagan: Yeah, right. 

Rachel: But, no. I had an amazing delivery. The entire time, I was supported by my loved ones and my midwife. My midwife’s assistant got there 30 minutes before she was born, right when we were getting on the bed and getting comfortable with the pillows and stuff. She came in and it was the perfect time because that apprentice assistant had also had three C-sections and a home birth with my midwife. It was almost like I got to experience what she did and she got to see it through another person. 

Meagan: Yeah, I love it. 

Rachel: Yeah, and I think my midwife put it this way. She got to give me what she experienced herself with my midwife. The same midwife delivered her baby at home. 

Meagan: So awesome. So awesome. 

Rachel: We both got to get that experience and it was healing for me, but I think it was also healing for her especially because she had those preconceived beliefs about weight that would interfere with my birth and it went fine. She had some fears lingering with that and for her to witness it and see that women like myself have just as much strength as anyone else. 

I’ve shared my birth videos with people and they are shocked that I am quiet and I seem calm. I really felt that way. I didn’t have any pain. I don’t remember feeling any pain. I just remember feeling it burn during pushing, but it wasn’t me pushing. The only push that I forced out was at the very end because we were concerned about her shoulders being stuck because we knew that she was big by the time her head came out. She didn’t have any molding or anything like that. It came out round as all could be. By that time, we realized that there was a possibility of her shoulders getting stuck, but no. They just came right out. She was fine. 

It was just a very healing experience. Redeeming in a way. I love that word. It was redemption. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Rachel: People keep saying, “Don’t you just want to rub it in all of your providers’ faces?” And honestly, I do. I wish more women like myself could experience this because I feel like the option is taken away even though it shouldn’t be. I have friends that have felt the very same thing as myself, that bait and switch. Even personally, locally, they feel like they never got the option. 

It just makes me, I don’t want to say angry, but it is angering for sure. I just wish that more women would try to push to experience this or find a provider like my own that refused to believe that I couldn’t do it until something was shown that was truly indicative that something was interfering. But because this option is taken away from so many women, it’s even harder for those of us that push for it to get it. Even fewer midwives are willing to take on plus-size women. 

I was over 415 pounds on the day of delivery. When people think of that, I mean, I carry it well. I’m 5’8”. I’m very proportioned. I have no mobility issues. I have no pain or any issues with my joints or anything like that. I’m very healthy and strong, but my weight is my weight and my BMI is what it is. That’s what providers see. They don’t see my body. They don’t see my abilities, my physical strength. They don’t see any of that. Unfortunately, for many women, it’s the same. Even with mobility issues or things like that, it doesn’t interfere with your cervix. It doesn’t interfere with your uterus or the biology of birth itself. 

I wish that wouldn’t hold people back. Yes, there are risks associated with your weight and being bigger, but there should be more than just the number that predetermines how you should birth. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Rachel: And unfortunately, with a lot of providers, even midwives, it is about the number on the paper. I’m grateful that my midwife refused to just see the number because she knew what I weighed. I told her. I was honest. She knows me and my ability. I have three kids. I am active with them. I can squat for days. I will squat competition you and beat you. I just have strength in my body. Regardless of my weight, I have the ability to do more than a number on a scale. 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that you said that because there is a slightly increased risk for BMI over 30, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Even with those risks being increased, it should be noted that ACOG, RCOG, and SCOG still don’t say that it means that you have to have an automatic Cesarean. It doesn’t mean that you can’t do it. We actually have a blog all about it. We talk about it. We have a plus-sized blog and we will make sure that it is in the show notes. 

It is possible. Stand up for yourself. You were saying, “I’ll take you on.” Don’t judge a book by its cover. Just because someone is plus-sized doesn’t mean they don’t have the ability to do what some people think is unachievable. 

Rachel: Right. I mean, yeah. Not that I think their ability shouldn’t be tested–

Meagan: Right, exactly. True, yes. 

Rachel: My body was tested over and over and over with my third being with my size, but I feel like there should be an obvious distinction between somebody that physically can’t, that may have some biological issues that may interfere with– maybe their pelvis was broken at one point and things like that that are seriously considered. But just because of my weight, just because of this, which is all an assumption and unfortunately, those assumptions somehow become fact, and that just because of a number or my size or whatever automatically means that my cervix doesn’t work or that my uterus is incompetent or something. In my brain, it doesn’t make sense. 

Yeah. That’s what I refuse to allow medical providers or people in general, even family that had doubts about my abilities which is all out of fear. 

Meagan: Yeah, and uneducated.

Rachel: Yeah or just been misguided, or told certain things about it. Everybody that I have talked to is like, “Oh, I thought you always had to have a C-section after you had one.” That whole “once a C-section always a C-section”, is like no. My midwife herself has delivered a home birth after 7 C-sections. It happens. Her body didn’t forget how to birth. It just was not given the chance. 

Meagan: Doubted, yeah. 

Rachel: My midwife does more VBACs or home births, she’ll even go to the hospital if you want to go the hospital, but she does more HBACs than regular first-time moms or repeat vaginal births. She takes on people that nobody else will take on because she wants to be that outlet and she has this heritage midwife training that she’s doing to extend her knowledge and her outreach to more midwives so that they will start taking on. She educates on the true risks of VBACs and things like that and that they aren’t to be feared. 

A lot of people have a lot of fear somehow that every time a woman births after a C-section that her uterus is just going to explode or something. That’s just not how it works. 

Meagan: Right. 

Rachel: She has a lot of insight and experience with VBACs. She is a wealth of knowledge and I appreciate her so much for advocating for those like myself and giving us a chance when nobody else will. Big huge props to my midwife for that.

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Rachel: It’s just been an amazing experience. Sitting here with my baby who is three weeks old now which, to me, it’s gone by way too fast. I can see maybe a week, but three is– no. She’s still little. She had slow gaining after I had her because my milk came in about four days after she was born. I mean, she was a big girl. She was pretty chunky. She had a lot to lose. 

She did lose a little over a pound, but she’s back up there now and eating like crazy. She’s healthy and great. Nothing wrong with her or myself. I feel amazing. I’ve been out and about since day three after I had her. I was taking my kids to school. I had the meet-the-teacher night four days after she was born, so we all went together. Even the day before that, I went out to lunch with just the baby and me. 

I wasn’t in any pain and it was a whole different experience having a vaginal birth than a C-section because I wasn’t cut open. I didn’t have an open sore. 

Meagan: Right. Recovery was better. 

Rachel: Yeah. I didn’t feel like– I mean, yes. I had pain but it was only when I nursed. It was just the initial pains the first few days and then obviously when I went pee, it burned. But I got some numbing spray that helped with that. I tell people every time I’m out. “How are you out? I was still on the couch.” I’m like, “Don’t let it fool you. I’m still wearing a diaper.” But physically, I feel amazing.

Meagan: Good. 

Rachel: It’s the polar opposite and I wish I could have had this experience for every one of them, but in a way, it makes this one that much more special because I didn’t get that with the first three. I’ve learned so much more about myself and I’ve gained a lot more strength and confidence in myself after my second, and then with the third unassisted pregnancy and then a third repeat C-section, I think that really just put me over the edge where I just had this empowerment in a way that I knew I was going to get the birth that I wanted and nothing was going to get in the way. 

I just had this peace about it. It was really hard the last few days especially, just because I had such a long prodromal journey in the end. It lasted over two weeks and I was just miserable. But that last day, I really started just to get that peace back. 

Meagan: Good. Yeah, I love that. 

Rachel: It was going to happen. It was going to happen. It was going to happen the way it was meant to happen and it just went. I got happy again once my bag started bulging. I was like, “All right. We’re going.”

Meagan: We’ve got this. 

Rachel: I was happy because before, it was a dreadful journey the last few weeks. Every time I thought it was going to happen, it didn’t. I got amped up and got let down over and over. But I knew that my body needed that time. It really helped, I think, with the pain. Even though it lasted forever and I was uncomfortable and whatnot, I think in the very end, I think that really helped with the management of the pain just because I was expecting it to get worse and it never did. I had that peace and calm through the whole end of my active labor. 

Even through transition, which looking back now, I can see when that happened, but yeah. I really think the long prodromal journey played a huge part. Maybe my body just needed extra time to mold and transition and expand and whatnot because it had never done it before. 

Meagan: Yep. We’ve just got to allow our bodies time and peace. Well, you’re amazing. 

Rachel: Even if I had gone into labor with my first or my second, it’s very possible that I could have wound right back up as a C-section because my body just naturally needs more time. Looking back, I feel like I don’t think anything would have changed. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Rachel: I think that if I would have gone through labor before and it ended up in a C-section, I feel like maybe that would make me doubt myself more looking back. Just reflecting on it, I just feel like maybe if I had done it and then ended up in a C-section, maybe I would have doubted myself more and this is just the way that my journey has had to come to have that confidence in myself. I’m very much that person where it’s like, if you tell me I can’t do something, I’ll do it and stare you down in the face and laugh at you afterward kind of thing. Like, “Oh. Do you think I can’t? Watch me.”

Meagan: Right.

Rachel: I feel like maybe that was just the way my journey was supposed to be and this way, I have a little bit more of an impact on my experience for people. I’ve had three Cesarean births and I had a home birth of an 11-pound baby on my bed in my house. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh, so amazing. So amazing. 

Rachel: Yeah. I just think it couldn’t have happened any better and I’m more than happy with how it ended up. I would do it over and over again, but my husband is pretty adamant that he is getting a vasectomy and he is done. 

Meagan: Oh well, hey. That happened to me too. 

Rachel: It hasn’t been scheduled and it hasn’t happened so you know, you never know. There might be a fifth. 

Meagan: Well, if another one comes, you just let us know. I really appreciate you so much for coming. I seriously loved it and it’s going to be amazing. 

Rachel: Aww, well thank you guys for having me and letting me share my story because I definitely want it to help others like myself.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

When Ana found The VBAC Link podcast, it was Meagan’s VBA2C that inspired Ana to go for her own! Though VBA2C is thought to be possible only without medical interventions, Ana had a nice, gentle induction, an epidural, and only pushed for 20 minutes! 

Meagan and Ana discuss different VBA2C induction methods including some non-traditional ways that could be just what you will need. Make sure to listen closely because providers are not likely to offer them unless you ask!

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC Induction Methods

The VBAC Link Blog: VBA2C

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Whatever time it is where you are listening, welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan Heaton and as always, I’m excited to be with you today and share another story. A couple of months ago when my kids went back to school in August, I asked out on The VBAC Link Facebook and Instagram page what people wanted more of. What that was was vaginal birth after two Cesarean specifically stories. 

I am going to deliver that to you today. Actually, Ana is going to deliver that to you today. We have a guest sharing her VBA2C story with an induction which is also something that a lot of people don’t know. A VBAC after two C-sections can also be induced. We are excited about her story and so grateful for her for being with us today. 

She even wants to be a doula here in the future, so I’m so excited to talk with her more about her journey, her story, and her desire to be a doula. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: But of course, we have a review of the week so I don’t want to miss that. Today, we have EmilyRessman and this is from Apple Podcasts. She posted it back in June, so not too long ago. She says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August.” Oh, that’s actually right now when we are recording, guys. “I found this podcast and it is so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn’t know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OBs as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed about the risks. I also love hearing about the CBAC stories as well so I will be able to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.”

Well, thank you, Ms. Emily. There was another review. Hopefully, I didn’t just reread this review, but there was another review that was also talking about loving hearing the CBAC stories and I love that. I love that you guys love that. It’s something that can be triggering and hard to hear, but it is really good to listen to because sometimes birth ends in a Cesarean birth. It may not be desired, but it can still be healing and beautiful. My second C-section, although not desired to be a C-section, I really found it healing and it was nice. It was peaceful to be a part of my birth and to know those options. 

These CBAC stories are beautiful and I’m so grateful for all of you guys who have shared them. We welcome all stories here. VBAC, even uterine rupture, CBAC, VBAC after multiple Cesareans, you are welcome here. So if you haven’t and you want to share your story, feel free to apply. We are sharing both on podcasts and social media because we have so many wonderful submissions. We want to try to share all of your stories. So if you haven’t had a chance, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story today. 

Also, if you haven’t had a chance, we would love your reviews. We are in need of more reviews. So if you wouldn’t mind pressing pause right now before we get into Ana’s beautiful story and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or wherever you are, you can just Google The VBAC Link and leave a review there as well. Or on Facebook, or send us a message at [email protected]. We would love, love, love to read your review on the podcast. 

Ana’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Ana. I am so excited for you to share this story. So excited because I think the induction is something that makes me really excited because we don’t have a ton of induction VBAC after multiple Cesarean stories, and so I’m excited to hear about how your induction went and how you navigated through that, where you were, and all of the fun things. 

So if you wouldn’t mind, I’m going to turn the time right over to you. 

Ana: I have to say that I can’t stop smiling because it feels surreal. I’m such a big fan of the podcast. 

Meagan: Oh! That makes me so happy. Seriously, we are so grateful for you and all of the listeners and all of the stories shared because we wouldn’t have this. We would not have this without you. When Julie and I were together, we could sit and probably talk VBAC until we were blue in the face because we love VBAC. We are passionate about VBAC, but the stories. These stories are what make this podcast, so we are so grateful to you today for being here.

Ana: Yeah, so I guess I’ll start with my first birth. I was 18. It was a long time ago. I was very, I would say, uneducated about birth. It was also an induction at 41 weeks. 

Meagan: Okay.

Ana: That’s important to know because it’s the same as my VBAC story, how it started. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Ana: I went in for my induction. I was 1 centimeter, 50% effaced. Again, same as my VBAC. 

Meagan: That’s kind of funny, same stats. Same stats. 

Ana: Yeah. Yeah, so that was a battle in my mind, actually, for my VBAC because I was so nervous. But everything went well up until a certain point. They started with Cervadil which I hated. It was super intense with super painful contractions as soon as they started it. I got an epidural because of the Cervadil before even Pitocin or anything. 

I stalled at 5 centimeters for about 12 hours. There was no change. I don’t know. I was super upset. I remember when my doctor was like, “Okay. Well, you haven’t made any progress. It’s been 12 hours.” It was just so devastating to me. I did not want to have a C-section at all. During that first C-section, I was really young. I was 18. It was traumatizing for me. I felt so scared and I didn’t have, I had my boyfriend but he was also 18, so we had no idea what to expect or anything. 

The worst part of that one was that they actually had my boyfriend leave with my baby, so they left me alone in the OR to be stitched up. I’ll never forget that. It was horrible. I wanted to see my baby and they left with him. It was terrible. 

Meagan: Yeah, you can feel abandoned sometimes. 

Ana: I did. 

Meagan: And you don’t know anyone around you. I’m so sorry. 

Ana: Yeah, it was definitely something hard. So fast forward to my second birth. Originally, I planned for a TOLAC for this birth as well. That was with my current partner now. I should have said. I had a boy and then another boy. So this is my second son. Yes, anyway backtracking all over the place. I wrote notes and everything and I’m still all over the place. 

Meagan: That’s okay. 

Ana: So my second birth, I planned to TOLAC, but I did not really prepare as I should have. I think I went into it just like, “It didn’t work the first time. What are the odds it’s not going to work the second time? I’m going to be fine. I’m just going to wing it.” 

That did not go well. I think I had prodromal labor. 

Meagan: Oh yeah. 

Ana: Yeah. I didn’t know what it was at the time though. I just had really intense contractions. They started at 39 weeks and 4 days with him. They didn’t cause any cervical change at all because I went to the hospital two nights in a row because they were so intense. I’m like, “What is happening?” And I couldn’t get any sleep. So they did medicate sleep for me which was nice. 

Meagan: Oh, really? 

Ana: Yeah, so I could get a little bit of sleep. But when they told me that nothing had changed after that, I just felt ready to meet my baby. I was tired of being in pain and nothing was happening. I had no idea what prodromal labor was and I had no idea that it could have been the positioning of the baby or The Miles Circuit. I didn’t know what any of that was. 

I just was like, “I’m done. I want to meet my baby. Sign me up for a C-section.” It was actually healing. It was much more peaceful. They never separated us. I got skin-to-skin in the OR. That experience was healing for me because I did get a much more peaceful and better experience, but it was not a VBAC. 

Meagan: Right. It’s not that it wasn’t the birth you desired, but it was still great. 

Ana: Yeah. 

Meagan: That’s how it was for me too. I didn’t desire another C-section, but I still was able to make it healing and positive for the birth that it was. 

Ana: Right, exactly. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Ana: So my VBAC after two C-sections. Honestly, when we were trying to get pregnant, I was still thinking about options, but I really was considering a repeat C-section actually because of the prodromal labor. I didn’t know what prodromal labor was still at this point. I was just very ignorant of it all, I guess. 

To me, I was like, “Oh, well. You know.” I didn’t even know that VBAC after two C-sections was an option. So actually, what happened was that I looked up VBAC on the podcast and this VBAC Link came up. 

Meagan: Aww. 

Ana: Meagan, I heard your story and I was like, “Oh my gosh. This is a thing. I can do that too.” 

Meagan: Yes. I love it. 

Ana: And then I think I listened to every story probably a million times my whole pregnancy. 

Meagan: There’s something about having those stories when you are prepping that heals you. 

Ana: Oh yeah. It’s huge. It is for sure. And then I feel like you learn so much too from other people’s stories. 

Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. 

Ana: So thankfully, the hospital I deliver at is very VBAC friendly. I didn’t even have to fight for a chance to TOLAC at all. It was so supportive which is so great because battling with yourself mentally, at least for me, was a huge part of my journey, so I’m happy I didn’t have to fight with somebody else to get what I want. 

At my first doctor’s appointment, my midwife asked me, “Do you want a TOLAC or do you want a C-section?” I was like, “Oh wow. I want a TOLAC.” I originally told her that my plan was to, if I went into spontaneous labor, I would TOLAC but I didn’t want to be induced again because of how the first experience went which is ironic. I was like, “Before 41 weeks, I’ll try and if I get to 41 and I don’t go into labor, I’ll just have a scheduled C-section.”

The whole time until the last month, that’s what I thought, but obviously, that changed. To prepare this time, I just completely absorbed everything I could find about birth and VBAC. I took The VBAC Link course actually, too, which was super helpful. I read Ina May. I think I read all of her books. I read, I think it was, How to Heal a Bad Birth. 

Meagan: Such a good book. 

Ana: Yes. Yes, it was huge. I just realized from my second birth that I had a lot of things that I needed to work on to be able to believe in myself. Also, a huge part of my story too before I get into my birth story was that my mom had all C-sections and then my older sister had four C-sections herself. So to me, there was a huge belief with my mom and my sister that, “Oh, we just can’t do it. We just can’t give vaginal birth. None of us can. That’s just how it is.” 

So when I told them that I wanted to have a VBAC after two C-sections, they were a little taken aback like, “What? Why do you want to do that? You’ve tried twice. Why do you want to do it again?” Especially my mom, I would say. I was actually a TOLAC, so she was trying to have a VBAC with me. 

Meagan: Oh really? 

Ana: Yeah, and this was the ‘90s so that’s when it took off. It was in the ’90s. She was induced though. She didn’t progress and she had another C-section. She really believed that “My body doesn’t work. It’s broken,” and then she thought that it was genetic. We got into some arguments actually. I love my mother, but it was hard to work through. 

That was another thing I had to shut out with my mom and my sister. I was kind of like, “I know. I understand and respect your concerns, but I don’t want to talk about this with you,” because it was that negative voice that was like, I know when I’m going into labor that’s what I’m going to think about. I had to really tone that down. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Ana: Coming into my birth story, I hit 40 weeks, and then it just kept dragging once I hit my due date. I’m like, “I really thought I’d go into labor by now.” I actually decided– I think it was my 39-week appointment– that all of a sudden, I did want an induction at 41 weeks. That was actually because of The VBAC Link Facebook Community. There are a lot of stories there too that I thought were super helpful. 

When I was looking up VBAC after two C-section stories, I came across quite a few that were induced. I talked with a midwife and I decided that was something that I wanted to do. So 41 weeks came and I was scheduled for my induction. My partner and I got there and they completed all the intake. It took a while. We started with the Cooks catheter. That started at about 1:30 in the afternoon. They placed it. 

That went well. A little bit after, I started contracting. It was manageable and then it got really uncomfortable, so that’s when I was looking for relief. I got into the shower which was amazing. Hot water is amazing for contractions. That went on for a few hours. I tried the TENS machine. I did not like that. I tried the nitrous. That made me nauseous. I was like, “Nope.” Those were the three things I wanted to try were water, nitrous, and the TENS machine. 

I was like, “Okay, now I want an epidural.” I was like, “I can’t do it anymore.” I was just so tired because obviously I have two kids at home and then I was there all day. This was probably at 8:00 or 9:00 p.m. at this point.

I was just really ready to get rest. I knew I had a long way ahead of me. At around 9:30-10:00, I got the epidural placed and I felt amazing at that point. I immediately got some sleep and then the Cooks Catheter didn’t come out on its own actually. But when they took it out, I was a 3 or a 4. 

Meagan: That’s great. 

Ana: Yeah, so that helped a lot. They started Pitocin at around 3:30 a.m. and then my water broke on its own with one contraction which I was really proud of because it never happened before. Then I started feeling, I think after my water broke, that was at about 6:00 a.m. I think. 

I started to feel more pressure and the contractions were coming back. I got more medicine for my epidural. The nurses were amazing. I have to say that was the best thing about the hospital I delivered at. It was just amazing and all of the nurses were great. My nurse was coming in switching sides. I had the peanut ball which I think helped so much in making the difference between my first experience with induction and this experience. 

Around 3:30 in the afternoon, that’s when I was experiencing a lot of pressure that I’d never experienced before. It wasn’t pain. It was just pressure. 

Meagan: Was it vaginally or rectally? 

Ana: Everywhere. 

Meagan: Everywhere. 

Ana: Yeah, it was really intense pressure. My midwife came in. She checked me and said, “You are 8 centimeters.” I was like, “What?!” I stalled at 5 centimeters with my first so right there, I felt that feeling of, “Okay, my body is not broken. It made it past 5.” That was the big moment where I was like, “Oh my god. It’s happening.” 

At that point, it was the waiting game. Waiting to be complete because she was at 0 station, so she was coming lower. That’s what all the pressure was. She was starting to come down. I remember that this was such an out-of-body experience from this point on. My epidural just stopped working that well. I started to feel everything again. I was at 8 centimeters hitting transition. I didn’t know what to do to cope. I remember my partner and the nurse were just like, “Just breathe. Just breathe.” I got the sweats. I was like, “I can’t breathe.”

Meagan: It’s hard. Yeah. 

Ana: I was trying to stay calm, but I was like, “Oh my goodness.” That was another moment in my head when I was like, “Why did I sign up for this? Why am I doing this to myself?” Even though it was what I wanted, it was such a mental battle every step of the way. My partner was such a huge help in bringing me back to reality. He was like, “You can do this. You can do this. I believe in you.” He was great. 

At about, I remember I was complaining about more pressure, so actually, at this point, it was probably at 5:00 p.m. Every time I had a contraction, I was actually bearing down. Unless you’ve had the feeling of the fetal ejection reflex, it’s hard to explain. It was an uncontrollable bearing down just like when you poop which, the nurse was telling me–

Meagan: I always tell my clients that it’s the cutest poop you’re ever going to take. Just embrace it. Embrace the feeling.

Ana: Yeah. I was right. I was like, “Oh shoot.” I had that feeling. I was complete when the midwife came in. They got everything ready for me to push. Baby was having a couple of late decels that they had been monitoring. They were monitoring the whole time. It was starting to get, I think, to the point where they didn’t really like it as much. I felt the pressure in the room change. 

They were telling me to push, teaching me how to push, but after a couple of times, the OB that was there explained to me what was happening. She said, “If you can’t get her out in the next couple of contractions, you have an option. We can do a vacuum delivery or a C-section.” She said, “A vacuum delivery is going to be much faster to get her out.” But her heart rate was not what they wanted. So that part was intense. It got a little scary there for a minute, but I only pushed for 20 minutes. 

When she told me that, I just gave it all I had. I pushed her out and it was the most intense thing I ever felt, but also as soon as she was out, it was all worth it. They put her on me for the first time and I never experienced that before. It was amazing to be the first person to hold your baby. She came out perfectly healthy, so that was good. I will never forget it. 

After they put her on my chest and I looked over at my boyfriend, I literally was just like, “Why did I even want to do this more than once?” My nurses started to laugh. They were like, “Because you forget it all.” I felt like I just could not, I couldn’t believe it. I just couldn’t believe I did it. I just kept saying over and over again that I did it. I did it. 

I did end up having a second-degree tear which was not fun, but I’m actually kind of grateful. I felt like it could have been worse with how hard I did have to push to get her out because of the heart rate decels that were happening. I mean, my first vaginal delivery and only pushing for 20 minutes is really good. It was pretty fast. 

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say for stalling, not progressing and all of these things, it was pretty quick. It makes me think that with your first, “Oh, it’s been 12 hours.” But the same thing with me. My first was also 12 hours where he was like, “Yeah, it’s been 12 hours.” We’re first-time moms. My body had never done this before. It just seems like the first time, we weren’t given a chance. And look, it took time. This induction took time, but amazing. You just needed someone to trust your body and its ability and your ability to do this. 

It is hard when it comes down to it and they are like, “Hey, we’re talking about all of these inductions. We’ve got to get this baby out fast.” That’s a lot of pressure on you. It can be scary, but you went it and you did it. You totally did it. Oh, I love it. 

For the Cook’s catheter, in some places, they call it a Foley. In some places, they call it a Cook. That is such a great way to induce. A lot of people say that it’s contraindicated, but we see it happen all the time. It does have success. 

Ana: Yeah, definitely. My first birth, I should add, was at a different hospital. That’s why I did not go back there because I felt like the team you have around you plays a huge role in your birth outcome. The experience was night and day at the hospital I delivered at this time. Actually, I had my second and third birth at the current hospital. They both were amazing experiences. 

Meagan: They really sound supportive, loving, and encouraging. It really helps when they educate and tell you their options like, “Hey, we’re going to do this. These are some options, but we don’t want to do that. Let’s just get this baby out.” 

Ana: Right. They never did anything without talking to me which is huge. Because sometimes, I know in my first birth, I definitely felt that things were just happening to me. I didn’t have a say. It was very like, “Oh, we’re going to break your water now. We’re going to do this to you now.” This time, it was not like that at all. I was a part of my care which I think is really important.

Meagan: Mhmm, absolutely. That’s one of the things. Even if the birth doesn’t end up exactly how you wanted or envisioned, I feel like being a part of your care and being an advocate in your space and having someone talk to you as though you are someone making these decisions because you should be. It really makes a difference in the overall view of birth. 

I’m not saying that it totally takes away from any sad feelings or anything like that, but it makes a big deal when you are a part of your birth and you are helping to call the shots in making the decisions versus having people just say, “We’re doing this. We’re doing this,” or “We did this.” Not even like, “We’re going to do this.” It’s, “We’ve done this. This is what we did.” That happens too.

Ana: Right. I didn’t realize how much it did happen until I went on this journey of reading everything I could and reading stories and watching documentaries. I’m happy that a lot more women are educating themselves so now I feel like we are taking back our power with birth. 

Meagan: Absolutely. We are taking back our power with birth. I love that. Oh my gosh. I love that. 

Okay, let’s talk a little bit about– so you kind of mentioned a few of them. How were you induced with your first? 

Ana: They did Cervadil and then Pitocin. 

Meagan: Cervadil and Pitocin, okay. We know that Cytotec, Cervadil, and those types of things are usually not used with VBAC because they are contraindicated and there’s a whole history with that. That’s probably why they didn’t do that with this baby. But sometimes, the cervix isn’t soft enough, open enough for a Foley or a Cook. They can’t get it in. That’s where a lot of people feel stuck. They feel like they don’t have any other option other than scheduling a C-section. 

I also just want to say on a side note that scheduling a C-section is okay too. That is not a bad thing. If that’s something that someone desires, that is okay and we encourage everyone to follow their heart. If they are like, “Okay. In my mind, I’m going to do everything I possibly can on my mind and if my baby doesn’t come by this date, I’ll schedule a C-section.” That’s similar to what you were thinking. That’s fine. That is totally okay. But there are other ways to induce. 

Like I was saying, sometimes the cervix isn’t in a prime state for those balloons. There are other things that they can do. They can actually start Pitocin on a really low, slow drip. The thing about Pitocin is that it’s not something that is going to open your cervix. It’s got to cause contractions and do its work. But it can get your cervix just enough where you can get a Foley or a Cook catheter.

A long time ago, Julie had a personal client who was a VBAC after three C-section mom. In fact, I think she’s on the podcast. It was kind of that way where nothing was happening with her cervix at all. They were like, “No. We really suggest a C-section.” She was like, “No. Just start me on Pit.” She was on Pit for a really long time, but it got her open. It got her a catheter and went from there. You can start and you can do that where you get a low dose of Pit. These aren’t things that are normal. They are not as common, I should say. These are things that you are going to have to request and really talk to your provider to see if they are on board with doing this and if they can help you in that way. 

Sweeping membranes is a softer VBAC induction method. Sometimes scraping the membranes can stimulate, evening primrose oil, or nipple stimulation. Quite frankly, sex is a great, great tip to start softening that cervix. But if you’re past that point, yeah. Slow-dose Pit before a catheter is really wonderful. Sometimes providers are like, “Oh, we’ll just break your water right off the bat.” That’s fine too. It’s called artificial rupture of membranes, but it’s not necessarily as ideal because if you have a high baby or baby is in a wonky position or labor is not ready to start, then we still have Pitocin and things to come after that. 

I love how you were like, “My water broke on its own this time and I was so proud of my body.” It’s awesome. It’s more ideal for us to wait for our water to break spontaneously, but sometimes, artificial is the answer. Doing what is best for you and what is the most comfortable thing for you in that state. 

Going through this now, having had an induced VBAC after two C-sections, are there any tips that you would give to the listeners out there walking into that space? 

Ana: I would definitely say that an induction can take a long time. Do not feel pressure because even this time, it was 28 hours from start to finish. That’s a long time but everything was going fine. I mean, it doesn’t matter how long it takes as long as you are healthy and your baby is healthy. It can take days to be induced. 

Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. 

Ana: Don’t go in with the expectation, “I have to have a baby in 12 hours or 24 hours,” because that’s often not the case especially if it’s your first vaginal delivery. Pushing, usually, the second stage in your first delivery can take longer as well. I also would say to educate yourself on every method of induction even for VBAC specifically just so when every step you get to, you are educated and you can make whatever choice is best for you. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Again, whatever choice is best for you. Exactly what you were saying, that is how you find what choice is best for you. You get the education. You learn about VBAC. Learn about CBAC. You learn about induction. Learn about all of the things and then you are able to take charge and make the choice that is best for you, your family, your baby, and your experience. 

I love that so much. I’m so proud of you for going in and going for it and taking charge of your care and learning, listening, watching the stories, and all of the things so you could feel prepared. I’m so glad that you had a beautiful experience. 

Ana: Thank you. When I think about it, I’m still like, “I can’t believe I did that. I did that.” I’m like, “If I can do that, I can do anything.”

Meagan: Right? Don’t you feel untouchable?

Ana: Yeah, it’s so empowering. 

Meagan: Yes, it really is. That’s amazing. Birth should be empowering. Birth should be empowering. This is a big deal in our life. You might have little details fade, but you will never forget the day. I will never forget the day that each one of my kids was born. Our family was growing. Our family was transforming into this beautiful family of two, three, four, and five. It’s just something that I won’t ever forget. I want those memories to be happy and positive. 

Like I said, I didn’t desire either of my two C-sections, but I still can find the positive in them and have found healing. I’m so grateful for them because I wouldn’t be here probably today. I honestly wonder. I always wanted to be a labor and delivery nurse but I even wonder if I didn’t have those two C-sections if I would be here with you today and be so passionate about VBAC and understand VBAC the way I do. I don’t know if I would or if I wanted to be a doula. I don’t know. I wonder. 

I know you mentioned maybe wanted to be a doula one day. Do you feel like these births have inspired you from that or have you always wanted to be a birth worker?

Ana: It’s actually kind of funny because when I was a little kid, I had a million baby dolls and I always would pretend to be a mom. I think that I was always drawn to being a mom and motherhood. Through my birth experiences and discovering all of the different aspects of the birth world, I think that came from my desire to just be with women. I’m so passionate about women and being empowered. Every woman should be educated and should never feel like they had no options or no choice. 

I think that’s the part that makes me so passionate. Definitely, experiences like my first experience in birth were traumatic and that definitely lit a fire in me to seek out all of the education and other women with like minds who had gone through similar things. I stay at home now, but I was a nail tech, so I would talk to women all of the time, all of my clients, and held their hands through them getting married and having babies. I’m always the person when they get pregnant, I tell them everything. I’m like, “You need to get this book. You should do that. Oh, do this.” They always say, “You would be so good at that. You would be a good doula. You would be a good nurse. You would be so good at that.” 

Meagan: It’s coming your way. It’s coming. You’re going to do it. You’ve got the passion. Oh, well thank you so much again for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your beautiful story. I know that just like everybody else you’re going to touch someone out there. There is going to be someone that connects to your story so much and listens to it on repeat because they are trying to do the exact same thing that you did. So thank you so much. 

We will have the induction blog in the show notes if you want to learn more about those methods of induction. Feel free to check that out and then we will also have a link for more about VBAC after two C-sections as well.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“I decided to start listening to my body instead of the doctor…”

In preparation for her VBAC, Zoei found a wonderful midwife and a VBAC Link-trained doula. She did her research and stayed patient as her pregnancy carried on past 41 weeks. Once labor started, she was in it for the long haul. 

Unfortunately, a hospital shift change brought a new, unsupportive doctor who Zoei had never met. She felt the energy change. She recognized the fear tactics, but stood her ground. 

 

You will find yourself both gasping and cheering with Zoei as you listen to her inspiring VBAC story! Zoei ends with her best tips on how to navigate labor when you unexpectedly find yourself under the care of an unsupportive provider. 

Additional links

The VBAC Link Doula Directory

The VBAC Link Blog: How to Find a Truly Supportive Provider

The VBAC Link Blog: Family-Centered Cesareans

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be with you today. I am hoping that it is Wednesday or maybe you’re just listening all over and it’s a Tuesday or a Saturday, but this is Wednesday and we are so excited to be back with you with another amazing story as usual. 

We have our friend, Zoei, today. She is from Washington and she is going to share her VBAC story with you. We’re going to talk a little bit about unsupportive providers, so if you are finding yourself stuck in that spot of not having a supportive provider, stick around because we are going to be sharing some tips. She’s even got a name to give you if you are in Washington, so hang tight and listen up for that. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Before we dive into her amazing story, we are going to do, of course, a Review of the Week. This review is on Apple Podcasts and it says, “I got my VBAC. I am four days out from my VBAC. I told my husband today it was the greatest accomplishment of my life thus far. Thank you Julie and Meagan and all of the women of strength who have shared their stories. I cried so many times on my daily walks while listening to this podcast including the day before my TOLAC started. It was truly inspiring and one of my main resources in preparing for my VBAC and I will continue to listen to every new episode.”

Well, this is from jmclane04, and thank you for your review. Congrats on your VBAC and I hope that you are still sticking around so you can hear your review today.

Zoei’s story 

Meagan: Okay, Zoei. Thank you so much for being here with us today. I can’t wait to hear your story and how you navigated through working with a not-so-supportive provider.

Zoei: Yeah, absolutely. I’m really excited to be here. 

Meagan: Well welcome, welcome. Dive right in. 

Zoei: All right. So when I had my son, he was ten days past due when I had him. He had been breech up until he was about 35 weeks. I had been really concerned about it actually because I know that breech can’t run in the family, but my brother was breech, my mother was breech, her mom was breech and I didn’t even know that that could happen. 

They were all breech so I was really concerned about it. I talked to my midwife and fortunately, my son flipped at about 39.5 weeks right before that cutoff where we would have to do something. 

Meagan: Oh yeah and kind of nerve-wracking. 

Zoei: Incredibly nerve-wracking because COVID was happening and we weren’t sure what the hospital policies were. They were changing nonstop so I was really anxious about it. But thankfully, he did flip at 39.5 weeks. It was crazy because when he flipped, I actually got this feeling of dread. I was so worried that something bad was going to happen to him or me during birth. I just couldn’t shake it. Whenever anything bad is going through my head, I usually just try to write it down to get it out, but every time I wrote it down, it would almost be a goodbye letter to my husband. 

Meagan: Oh. 

Zoei: I just could not shake it for the life of me which is crazy because I had complete faith in my body. I truly believe that our bodies are made to birth and that my body could do it, but I was just really afraid for the first time and it was the instant I found out he had flipped. So at 9 days past my due date, I woke up at 5:30 in the morning and I was getting this lower back pain pretty consistently and I was starting to go into labor. 

My husband hung out with me all day and we just were really chill for the whole day. By about 10:00 p.m., the midwife said that I was good to go into the birth center. My contractions were about two minutes apart, a minute each. But the thing was that even though I had been in labor that long and my contractions were so close together, I didn’t feel like anything was changing or adjusting in my body if that makes sense. 

Meagan: Yeah. No, yeah. Totally. I mean, that’s something that we talk about with our doula clients is that sometimes that pattern reflects really close to go-time, but that doesn’t always mean that physically inside things are changing the way that you would think the pattern would show. 

Zoei: Yes. I had watched my best friend give an all-natural, unmedicated birth to her daughter and what I saw happening with her was not physically happening to me. I could think through each contraction and it just felt like the contractions were all that was happening. My son was still moving. He was doing good, but nothing was changing in my body which was kind of adding to my feeling that something was wrong. 

We get to the birth center at about midnight and my midwife checks me. I’m barely a centimeter dilated if that. 

Meagan: Mmm. 

Zoei: Yes. She’s about to send me home. She’s like, “You’re a first-time mom. It happens. It’s just one of those things.” She sits and watches me for a few contractions and she was like, “You know, I think I’m going to have you stay for a little bit if you’re okay.” Absolutely. She has me lying in bed. My husband is behind me so I lay into him through each contraction. My midwife gave me these pills. I’m not quite sure what they were, but it was to ease any anxiety between each contraction. 

Meagan: Oh, I can see it because I have had a client that has been given them. Did you put it under your tongue?

Zoei: Yes. 

Meagan: Yeah. Oh, what is it? I’m going to think about it. We’ll come back, but I have had clients that have had that and it did help them. 

Zoei: Perfect. Yes. Yes, and it did. I was laying into my husband between each contraction and relaxed and then went through the next one. My midwife was telling me to vocalize between each contraction, but I didn’t have an urge to do that. I didn’t really need to which was another thing that just felt a little odd for birth.

So it was midnight when that happened. At about 5:00 a.m., my midwife woke me up because I had actually fallen asleep. My contractions had basically stopped. So 24 hours after they started, they stopped all on their own. She asked if she could do a cervical check because she wanted to know what was going on. I agreed and she does a cervical check. The first thing she says is, “Wow, you’re handling this really well,” because I guess some people get pain with cervical checks. But the instant she did it, I felt almost a relief of pressure inside.

She finishes. I still haven’t really dilated. She tells me that she thinks that my son is stuck behind my pelvis and she would like to transfer me to the hospital. As soon as she said that, I had this wave of relief like maybe I haven’t been crazy this whole time. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Zoei: We go to the hospital. We check-in. It’s COVID, so there’s not really anyone in the labor and delivery other than those needed. We honestly just had the best experience from there. My midwife met us at the hospital and she was like, “These are the options that we have for you. We’re pretty sure he’s stuck behind your pelvis.” We didn’t know the gender at the time, so she was just saying, “The baby”. 

We had the option to do Pitocin to possibly jumpstart my contractions. She said, “It could push the baby into where he needs to be, but you can be in labor for up to three days or we can do a C-section.” I took a moment to talk to my husband. Hearing that Pitocin could push my baby into where he needed to be sounded so scary to me. I’m like, “I don’t like to be pushed as an adult. I don’t want to push my newborn and possibly hurt him.”

So we decided to do a C-section. It was really amazing because I had a really hard time coming to that conclusion. The midwife came in and she asked how we were feeling. I started asking all of these questions about C-sections because I was stalling. I didn’t want to say that I wanted a C-section because it felt like giving up.

My midwife looks at me and says, “You have permission to have a C-section. It is okay if that is what you need to do. You’ve done everything you can.” I just started crying. It was just exactly what I needed to hear. 

Meagan: Because you felt relief? Yeah.

Zoei: Yes. Yes. I needed to know that it was okay for me to do that. We were so lucky. I hadn’t done any research on C-sections at all. Every single person that was going to be in my birth room took the time to come in and introduce themselves. They told me exactly what they were doing, and asked me what I wanted out of this birth. They offered me the clear drape. I didn’t even know that was a thing, so I was incredibly fortunate. 

We get into the room for the C-section. They do the spinal tap. They bring my husband in afterward. I get really nauseous. The anesthesiologist is on top of it. He gives me medication to help with it. At this point, I was just so exhausted and everything felt fuzzy, but I was still there which was nice.

They started to lift my son out of me and we didn’t know the gender. They lifted him up and I just remember the umbilical cord was in the way, so we still didn’t know if it was a boy or a girl. They moved the umbilical cord. We found out it was a boy and we were so excited. All of a sudden, everyone in the room was taking bets on how much he was going to way. They were like, “Oh my gosh, he’s huge.” It was just such a lighthearted, wonderful thing. My son was 10 pounds, 1 ounce and it was just great. We were so excited. 

They put him on my chest and something that I’ll never really forget though is that they put him on my chest and I couldn’t even feel excited. I was just so exhausted and I had so many drugs running through my system. I looked at my husband and I asked him to take our son. I was like, “I’m just so tired.” My husband scooped him up on me. They finished sewing me up and they wheeled me back. I was sweating so much that they couldn’t even stick anything on me. Everything was sliding off. I remember all of those small things. 

When it was time for me to get to bond with my son, I felt really protective of him but I wouldn’t say that I had that immediate love for him. I would do anything for him. I would make sure he was okay. But everyone always talks about this overwhelming sense of love you have as soon as your baby is born. I just felt really protective over him and it took a little bit for that love to come in. But it did. I was able to breastfeed him and we had an amazing breastfeeding journey for about 20 months. 

When my son was about a year and a half, my husband and I decided to try for another baby. We got pregnant right away. At this point, we had moved to Wenatchee, Washington. As soon as we found out we were pregnant, my husband actually started calling the midwives and the birth centers. That’s how we found out that they don’t do VBACs here in Washington.

I started doing a lot of research and I found an amazing provider. Her name is Bridget Kamen and she was the most amazing provider I could have found. Something else I wanted to add is that after I had my son, my midwife had come in and she was like, “You would be an amazing candidate for a VBAC.” My husband was like, “What’s a VBAC?” He looked at me and asked. I thought it was a vacuum birth. I didn’t know. That’s how little I knew. 

Meagan: Vacuum, VBAC. I mean, V. Vacuum. 

Zoei: Yes. I just assumed that because my son was stuck, she was saying that in case the next one is, it could be a vacuum birth. 

Meagan: I could totally see how you would have related that. I really do. 

Zoei: I just had no idea. It’s crazy that once you have a C-section, it’s like a stamp. You are forever a VBAC or another C-section. I had no idea. But you don’t know what you don’t know. So back to being pregnant with my second, I found the most amazing provider and I knew right away that I would need support. I was so worried about a hospital because you hear those horror stories about how you just get pushed around and bullied in a hospital sometimes. 

Meagan: It can happen. 

Zoei: Yes. I don’t think that’s normal, but I know that it can happen and I didn’t want to have to feel like I was fighting. So I messaged a couple of doulas. I met up with them and they weren’t the right fit for me. Then I remembered that The VBAC Link has a full list of doulas that are certified through you guys and I really wanted someone that knew about VBAC. I went and looked at your list. There was a small handful in Washington, but one of them was in Wenatchee. 

I reached out. Her name is Christine Potter and she was amazing. The instant I met her, I knew that she was perfect. She was so warm and kind and supportive. I remember my son was just running around everywhere at this cafe where we met. She looks at me and she goes, “There’s a park down the street. Do you want to walk there?” We started walking to the park and it was icy. I’m holding my son and I almost slip. She didn’t even hesitate. She reached over, picked up my son out of my arms, and started walking with him instead. 

I knew right away that she was perfect. She preemptively helped with everything before I even realized that I needed help. 

Meagan: That’s how it should be though. 

Zoei: Yes, yes. It was amazing. She saw my needs before even I realized that I needed them. She was like that throughout the entire pregnancy. I had a really normal pregnancy. With my first, I gained about 70 pounds, and then with this one, I gained about 50. I was walking. I was a lot more active. You can’t sit around as much when you have a toddler. 

Around 36 weeks, my doctor and I sat down and were talking about what I’m looking for with my birth. She’s like, “I know you said you don’t want to be induced. What is that looking like for you?” I was like, “Well, I would really prefer not to be induced. I don’t want Pitocin. I don’t want an epidural. I’d really like for my body to do things as naturally as possible.” She was like, “Okay. If you change your mind, just let me know.” That was the whole conversation. It was amazing. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Zoei: She knew that my son was 10 pounds, 1 ounce. Every now and then, she’d ask if this baby felt any larger. I was like, “I really couldn’t even tell you. It’s such a different pregnancy. I wouldn’t know.” At about 36 weeks, every time I went in, the nurse that would check me in would ask me if I was ready for my cervical check. Each time, I would say, “No, thank you. No, thank you. No, thank you.” 

At 38 weeks, I decided to ask my doctor, “Hey. I’ve done my research, but is there really any reason for a cervical check that I should know about?” It was really nice because she was just really upfront and really honest. She was like, “No. There is honestly no reason for a cervical check unless you want a membrane sweep or if you are just interested in where your body is at. It doesn’t make a difference and it doesn’t do anything,” which was perfect. 

When I hit 39 weeks, my older sister came to stay with us. We don’t have any family in the area, so she was here to be here until we had the baby to be able to watch our son. Over the next week up until my due date, we were walking every day. We were being really active and just trying to get the baby out. I hit 40 weeks and my husband and I sit down. We decided that at my next doctor’s appointment, I would ask for a membrane sweep. 

I would do a cervical check, get the membrane sweep, and go from there. Because my son was so late, I just had it in my head that if I went past 41 weeks, it would hit that spot for me of starting to be more afraid of a VBAC and the reality of it. I didn’t want to be thinking about a C-section while I was working so hard for this VBAC. 

At 41 weeks and 3 days, I go to my doctor’s appointment to do a membrane sweep. I get there and the nurse is– it was really crazy because the nurse who had been asking if I wanted the cervical check each time was like, “I can’t believe you’re still pregnant. Are we planning your induction today? What are we doing?” I was like, “No, no, no. We’re just going to do a cervical check. I don’t want an induction.” 

So it’s 2:00 in the afternoon. I’m three days past my due date. My doctor comes in. She does the cervical check and I’m not dilated at all. So they can’t do the membrane sweep. At this point, it was almost again, a release like it was out of my hands. I felt conflicted about it. I wanted my body to do things naturally and on its own, but I was so worried about going past 41 weeks that we had decided to do a membrane sweep if it was possible, but because I wasn’t dilated at all, it wasn’t possible. It was just like, “Okay. It’s out of my hands. I’ve done everything I can. Whatever happens at this point happens.” 

We leave the doctor’s appointment and we go to the park with my son and my best friend and her kiddo, my sister, my husband, and we just spent the rest of the day really just enjoying the moment and getting to be outside and getting to be together. Between 5:00 and 6:00, I realized that I was getting a lot of Braxton Hicks. They were just still going and going. Usually, they taper off and die down. 

Around 7:00, I realized that they were still going. So I decided to start casually looking at my watch and seeing how far apart they are. They were about 5-7 minutes apart. After I realized that, I started timing them in between. They were about an hour, excuse me. They were about a minute each. So they were 5-7 minutes apart, a minute each, but they just felt like Braxton Hicks so I’m like, “Oh, my body is just doing its thing.” At about 10:00, it was still going. 

I stand up and my sister looks at me. My husband looks at me and I look down and my stomach has dropped. It is the lowest it has ever been because my son didn’t drop. We were like, “Whoa. That’s crazy.” I’m still thinking that this is just prodromal labor, Braxton Hicks. 

At about 10:00, I decided that I was going to go lay down. I lay down in bed and all of a sudden, they get so much stronger. I can’t sleep through them. I’m really uncomfortable. At midnight, I decided to draw a bath. I’m like, “If this is prodromal labor, a bath should help it stop so I can get some sleep tonight.” As I’m drawing my bath, it wakes up my husband and he comes in. He sits next to me and I try and convince him to go back to sleep. I’m like, “This is nothing. It’s just prodromal labor and if it’s not, then you should still get some sleep before anything happens.”

He’s like, “No. I’m not leaving.” So he sat next to me and I have him text my doula and tell her that they are 5 minutes apart, about a minute each, but I am still not quite convinced that anything is happening. Probably within 15 minutes of being in the bath, my contractions go from 5-7 minutes down to 2 minutes apart, a minute each. 

I’m someone who always thought I would want this natural, beautiful water birth and I hated being in the water. I hated it. I wanted to move. I felt so trapped and I needed to be moving. 

Meagan: Isn’t that funny how that works? You have this whole vision. I always envisioned giving birth in the tub and I gave birth on the bathroom floor. 

Zoei: It is. No, I just was like, “I need to move. I can’t just sit in this water anymore.” My contractions within an hour went from 5 minutes apart down to 2 minutes apart, still a minute each, and it’s all in my back. It was just really strong. My doula messages me and she is like, “Your contractions are pretty close together. Are you ready for some more support?” I say yes, so she comes over. At this point, my husband and I are in the living room. I’m on the birth ball. I’m moving. I’m using hip support during each contraction. 

I go and I wake up my sister. I’m like, “Hey, I think I’m actually in labor and I just want you to know that you are going to be here alone with our son soon.” So she comes out into the living room also to be a big support. My sister is almost like my mom. She is 9 years older, so she was always really great about being there for whatever I needed as well. 

My doula gets there probably at about 1:30. She starts doing some rebozo on me and starts having my husband do some rebozo on me. They try and do some counterpressure and again, I hate it. I’m like, “Don’t touch me. I know you’re trying to help me. Don’t touch me.” At this point, they are still 2 minutes apart, a minute each and I’m getting really vocal. I didn’t feel the need to get vocal with my son at all, but this one, I understood what my midwife was asking me to do the first time. I couldn’t help it. They were these deep moans. 

I was getting really worried about waking up my son in the other room, so we decided to go to the hospital at 3:00 a.m. It’s a little over 12 hours since I had been at the doctor and I hadn’t been dilated at all. We get to the hospital. They check me in and I am maybe a centimeter dilated. I’m like, “Okay, well, almost exactly like what happened with my son, right?”

Meagan: Yeah, but you were feeling further this time, right?

Zoei: Yes, definitely. I could feel the changes in my body this time and I didn’t feel the changes at all with my son. So I was like, “Things are happening now. I understand now. I see what was missing the first time.”

We go ahead and they decide to check me in because my contractions are still so close together. They are consistently 2 minutes apart. The nurses look at my doula and they were like, “Hey, has it been back labor the whole time?” She says, “Yes.” So again, she knew right away what was happening and I wasn’t sure, but my baby was OP. Her spine was to my spine. It was miserable. 

I had planned for unmedicated. I wanted to be able to move around. I wanted to be able to experience this birth, but more than anything, I wanted to be able to enjoy it. I told my husband, “I am not going to be able to enjoy this as long as I have this back labor. I need an epidural.” He was really supportive. He’s like, “I want to make sure that you actually want this because you’ve talked so much about not wanting an epidural.” I was like, “It’s so important for me to be able to look back and be excited about this birth and not look back and cringe about how much pain I was in the whole time.” 

It gets to be about 6:00 a.m. and I ask the nurse when I can have an epidural. They didn’t check me again, so as far as they know, I’m still at 1 centimeter. They were like, “We will order one for you right now.” They were like, “The only thing we ask is that while you can still be up and moving around, have your doula do some more rebozo on you to try and flip the baby around.” 

I go and I sit on the toilet backward. Christine starts doing some rebozo trying to help flip the baby. Baby is just not having it. By 6:30, I have the epidural. It starts working immediately and I can feel my legs which was fantastic. It just numbed the pain which was great, but I could still move around in the bed with no issues at all. 

At 7:00 a.m., it was a shift change and that is when I met my new doctor. I hadn’t had another cervical check since I had first been checked in and this doctor walks in at 7:30 and he introduces himself. He sits down, leans forward, and looks at me. At this point, I think he’s only read my chart. The first thing he says is, “Do you want more kids?”

Meagan: What?

Zoei: Yeah. I was like, “We talk about having a third sometimes,” and he’s just sitting there silent. I’m like, “Are you asking because of the C-section?” because he didn't say anything after that. He was like, “Yes I am.” I was like, “Okay, why are you asking that?” He was like, “Well, at this point, our fear is that the same exact thing is happening that happened with your first. You had such a large baby the first time and shoulder dystocia is such a tragic thing when it happens. With a VBAC, you can rupture and although it might not happen when it does, it is absolutely awful and tragic.” He’s really laying it on. 

Meagan: So lots of fear. Lots of fear was poured out onto you. You are in a very vulnerable state already. 

Zoei: Yes. Yes. I was like, “I understand. I have done the research, but I really am looking forward to doing this VBAC.” He was like, “Okay, but why? Why do you even want to have birth naturally?” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Zoei: Right? At this point, my doula has also left. After I got the epidural, she asked if it was okay if she went home to sleep. I was like, “Absolutely. Go for it.” She had her phone on loud, so at this point, it was the doctor, me, and my husband. I’m like, “I want a VBAC because I have a two-year-old at home that I need to be able to go home and play with. It’s really important to me because I wasn’t mentally present when my son was born. I just felt really out of it and I really want to be mentally present for this baby.”

He’s like, “Okay, but I don’t even think that your body is going to be able to progress past what it already is. You haven’t done it before.” I was like, “Okay. I’m not concerned about what my body is able to do. If you would like to do a cervical check to see where I am, that is completely fine, but I am not worried about it.” He actually word-for-word says, “Okay. Well, I would like to see if your bony pelvis is even capable of birthing a child.” 

Meagan: Oh boy. And he has never touched you before? Or even seen you? Yeah.

Zoei: No. First time meeting him. No. I have this huge blanket over me. He can’t even see my pelvis for starters. 

Meagan: He’s already diagnosing your pelvis as a bony pelvis. 

Zoei: Yes. Correct. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Zoei: He keeps trying to tell me about how he doesn’t think I’m going to progress at all. It goes on for about 20 minutes before he has even checked me still and it gets to the point where I tell him, “Can you please do the cervical check? If I’m not dilated past the 1, we can keep talking about what you are talking about, but unless I or baby is in danger, I am planning on this VBAC.” 

He lets me know right then that baby being in danger is really subjective to what the doctor views as danger. 

Meagan: Oh! Okay. 

Zoei: I just said, “Can we please do the cervical check?” We do the cervical check and lo and behold, I’m 4 centimeters. 

Meagan: Woohoo!

Zoei: Yes. It was funny because he was like, “That’s interesting. When I started the cervical check, you were at a 1, but now you are at a 4. So he was saying that while he did it, I went from a 1 to a 4. I’m like, “I don’t even know if that’s possible, but whatever. You can see that my body is progressing.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Zoei: He gives the okay for me to continue. Or I guess he gives me his blessing to continue the VBAC because I was doing it one way or another. He leaves the room and my husband and I just sleep. We sleep until about noon which was when our doula came back. Around 2:00, the nurse comes in and asked if she could do a cervical check. I’m still only at a 4. Nothing has changed at all. But my contractions were still really consistently every 2 minutes apart because you could see it on the monitor. Baby’s heart rate was great. They weren’t worried. They just let me keep doing what my body wanted to. 

Oh, also, because I could move, every hour, I was changing positions with the peanut ball. I would be on my right side for an hour, then my left side for an hour, and I just kept going back and forth. So probably about 4:00, I decide that I want to see if gravity can help at all. My doula and my husband helped me get onto all fours on the bed and they start doing some rebozo work for me. 

She does it for a little bit, and then she shows my husband how to do it and he does it. I’m in that position for about an hour and then after that, we do the throne position for an hour. By then, I’m exhausted again. With an epidural, it’s really easy to forget that your body is running a marathon. So while you’re getting exhausted and you think that you’re just sitting there–

Meagan: You’re not. 

Zoei: No. Your body is doing so much work. 

Meagan: Yep. Yep. 

Zoei: I’m exhausted and I decide to lie down for a little bit. The doctor comes in at about 6:00 and he checks me. I’m at a 7. After that, about every hour, the nurse would ask me if I wanted a cervical check. I kept declining because I could start to feel pressure in my pelvis and so I knew that we were getting closer, but I didn’t want to do a cervical check and have them see that I was at a 10 and try and get me to start pushing because I really learned a lot listening to your podcast that just because you’re at a 10 doesn’t mean that you’re ready to have the baby. 

I kept declining until I was feeling a lot of pressure between my bottom and my pelvis. I felt just a lot of pressure had built. At about 10:15, my nurse checks me and she says that I am at least at a 9, but she didn’t want to check further than that because my water was bulging. It hadn’t broken yet. I’m like, “Okay great. I’m going to go nap some more.” 

And then, I woke up at 11:15 to the doctor coming in. He has two other nurses with him. They walk in and the doctor wakes me up. He has me lay on my back and he says that we are about to get going. What I didn’t know at this point was that my daughter’s heart rate had been having these small drops. So at 11:15, they get everything all set up. It was funny because we had actually planned to have my husband catch the baby, so my doctor walks my husband through what that was going to look like. 

I’m on my back and he’s like, “With this next contraction, I want you to bear down.” I did and my water broke. The doctor, at this point, looks at me. It’s the same doctor as in the beginning and he says, “Okay. You can’t feel your contractions so I’m going to tell you when to push.” I let him know that I actually can feel my contractions so I will be pushing on my own. 

Meagan: I was going to say, did he ask?

Zoei: No, he kept telling me what was happening with my body. He kept not asking me. 

Meagan: Oh man. 

Zoei: I was like, “I will be doing this, thank you.” He was like, “Well, you can try.” This man has the audacity to turn around and start talking to a nurse during my next three contractions. Each one, I’m pushing. I’m not making any sounds, but I’m pushing. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Zoei: He turns back to me and he’s like, “Are you going to start pushing?” The nurse who was with me was like, “She’s been pushing each time.” He looks at me. Again, hasn’t even watched me through a contraction. He was like, “You are going to have to push a lot harder with each contraction if you want this baby out.” He continues with, “This baby is OP which means it’s going to be a lot harder and a lot more work. It’s going to be a lot more difficult. You’re going to be pushing for hours so you are going to need to be prepared for that.” 

Oh, I was just completely just tuning him out at this point. He’s not helping me. He’s not mentally encouraging me. He’s just telling me how hard it’s going to be over and over again. He finally watches me push on the next one and he’s like, “Oh, that wasn’t bad.” Thank you. I’m aware. 

I’m still on my back and it feels so uncomfortable. I know I have the epidural and I’m feeling all of the pressure, but I do not want to be on my back. I look at him and I’m like, “Hey. I would like to move on to all fours. Is that okay?” He stops and looks at me. He says, “Well, I guess you can, but you’re going to make it a lot harder for me and the nurse if you do that.” 

Meagan: Okay, well thank you for letting me know. Yeah. Sorry I am making it harder on you. 

Zoei: Yes. This is not your birth. This is my birth. 

Meagan: I’m pushing a baby out of my vagina right now. 

Zoei: Yep. So it’s 11:15 and he sends the two nurses that he brought in away. It’s me, my husband, my doula, the doctor, and the nurse that is assigned to me. I switch onto all fours and my baby’s heart rate evens out. He’s like, “Oh, it looks like the baby actually really likes that position.” So I’m pushing with each contraction, but again, I don’t feel this need to push. 

I’m almost getting frustrated that I’m pushing because I don’t want to be. Nothing in me is saying “push”. I know I’ve had the epidural and I know it can numb you, but at this point, it felt like my body had told me everything to do, so I don’t know why I wasn’t listening to it. I decided to start listening to my body instead of the doctors and I stop pushing. I’m on all fours and I just start swaying my hips back and forth. I do that for about three contractions and the nurse really kindly and really gently is like, “Hey, you’re having a contraction.” I was like, “I know. I’m taking a break.”

At midnight, the doctor walks over to the nurse, doesn’t look at me, doesn’t say anything and he says to the nurse, “Baby is still OP. This is going to take a while. I’m going to go do other things,” and he walks out. My first thought is, “Why am I pushing if he doesn’t even think I’m going to have this baby anytime soon?”

I turn and I say that to the nurse. She’s like, “Well, it can just take a lot of time.” I was like, “I don’t think I should be pushing, so I would like to just labor longer.” The nurse and my doula start talking about the best position to get me in to sit there and labor more. I’m still on all fours and I’m swaying my hips. I keep going into the resting child position and I can’t stop moving. 

I feel so much pressure. I don’t feel the need to push, but I can’t stop moving. It feels almost like this tingling is happening. At 12:08, I go into the resting child position and I feel my daughter flip and go directly into my pelvis. Immediately, I knew I needed to push. 

Meagan: Whoa, that’s amazing. 

Zoei: Yes, it was 8 minutes after the doctor left the room. She dropped so far down that I actually reached my hand down to see if I could feel her head because it was just so quick and sudden. I came back up and all I had was just some blood on my hand, but I was like, “It’s about to happen.” I’m on all fours and all of a sudden, I start pooping. 

The nurse goes to clean me up and she sees the head start coming out. She runs over and presses a button and she calls anyone that is in the hallway. She runs back up to me and she is like, “You need to slow down.” The only thought I had was, “I’m not slowing down for anyone.” 

My doctor chose to leave. I am doing this. I go and it was absolutely amazing because I felt everything. It felt so natural and so right. Within two or three pushes, she was completely out. A nurse had run in and caught her. She was, as they put it, a little floppy when she was born, so they had to cut the umbilical cord pretty quick and bring her over to their little warming area and help her out for a minute. 

She didn’t get immediately placed on my chest or anything, but that was totally fine. I was just so excited and so proud that I had done it. The doctor walks in five minutes later. And he’s just like, “Wow, that happened really fast.” I had a second-degree tear. Again, you would think at this point that he would start asking me questions, but he was like, “You can’t feel anything so I’m going to start stitching you.”

I tell him again, “I can feel everything.” So he gives me a little bit of numbing but not enough to numb everything. But he finishes stitching me up. One of my really big fears was actually that I would feel an immediate love and connection to this baby when I didn’t with my first. I was really worried about the guilt that would come with that. But for me, it was almost cool because I didn’t feel that immediate love for this baby either. Not in a bad way, I felt so protective and I knew that she was mine, but you give birth to a little stranger, you know? That’s not wrong. There’s no issue with that because I still knew that I would do anything for her, super protective, but just like with my son, it just took a little bit for those love hormones to really hit me hard. 

That was my VBAC. It was amazing and I got to come home. I got to play with my son and I got to hold him. It was just exactly what I wanted it to be. 

Meagan: I love that. I love that. I hate when providers doubt, but I love when people prove providers wrong. It’s so bad. 

Zoei: It was my favorite part. I’m not going to lie to you. 

Meagan: You know, that was one of the things right after I had my baby. I was like, “Yeah. I did that.” I said his name. I was like, “Yep. I did that.” In fact, I actually said, “Screw you.” 

Zoei: It was so funny. My doula took notes. Yes, exactly. My doula took notes through the entire birthing process to be able to give to me later and when the doctor left the room, she actually wrote a specific note saying, “So glad he left. He was not bringing any good energy.” And then after I gave birth to my daughter, she wrote a note saying, “Gave birth. Doing amazing. Felt good to just almost give a giant ‘screw you’ to the doctor.”

Meagan: I know and I don’t want to feel that way. I really don’t, but man. 

Zoei: But it feels kinda good. 

Meagan: It does feel good and there was no reason to doubt when nothing was telling anybody anything but positive. 

Zoei: Yes, exactly.

Meagan: He brought this negative feeling into this space that was undesired and placed fear, and doubt. It’s so hard. It’s so hard. You had started with a shift change and here you meet your new doctor who is already telling you that your pelvis is probably bony and things like that. I would say, what would be one of your tips to our listeners because unfortunately, this happens all of the time when we are with our supportive provider, yet that supportive provider is unable to specialize. I call it “specialize” meaning to only see and catch your baby. They are in shifts, which, I understand why these providers out there work shifts. It’s hard work. They are long shifts. They get tired. They get burned out. We are grateful for all of the providers out there. 

But what tips would you personally give to anyone that one, maybe going into it with an unsupportive provider because they are unable to find a supportive provider in their area, and two, dealing with that shift and that doubt and that fear that was placed? 

Zoei: I think that the biggest thing to remember is that you and the doctor have the same exact goal. You both want a healthy baby and a healthy mom. But you guys might have two different routes on how to get there. That doesn’t mean that either is wrong, but I think that just knowing that you have the final say is. 

It’s not up to the doctor. Really, anything that they are saying is a suggestion. It’s up to you. It’s your body. It’s your baby and it’s your birth. They’re not going to look back on your birth and be like, “Oh wow, such a great job.” If it’s a C-section, they might look back and be like, “Wow, that was some great stitch work,” right? If it’s vaginal, “Wow, that went really smoothly,” but it’s your birth. You have to live with it. 

Meagan: Mmhmm. I love that. 

Zoei: Yes. You’re not going to forget it. You’re going to look back on it. It’s your birth story, not their birth story. 

Meagan: Yeah, and that is something even when I was debating on changing providers. In the end, I loved that provider, but in the end, this is an experience that I am going to live with for the rest of my life, that I am going to hold onto. Although, I agree. Our providers are there to have a safe mom and a safe baby with everyone healthy and happy. That is true. 

However, they are not going to live with this experience for the rest of their life more than likely. Some providers may hold onto it. I’m sure they have births that they hold onto, but yeah. It’s more unlikely that they are going to remember your birth forever. 

Zoei: People aren’t going to go up to them and be like, “Hey, how was that birth today?” like how people will go up to you, “How was the birth?”

Meagan: Right. Or, “Do you remember that birth four years ago?” And they would be like, “Uhh, kinda.”

Zoei: “Which one? I had five that day.” 

Meagan: Exactly. So it’s your birth. It’s your baby. It’s your experience and it’s okay for you to stand up. We do have a blog on VBAC-friendly care providers and all of the different types of providers because we have got midwives. We have family doctors. We have OBGYNs. We have MFMs which are maternal-fetal medicine doctors. We have a love of people that can help with VBAC. It’s just finding the right provider for you. 

This blog talks all about that. How to find out whether they are truly supportive or not, questions, we have some questions in there. If you are looking to start interviewing VBAC providers, check out our blog at thevbaclink.com/blog. It’s all about finding a supportive provider. We’ve got lots of questions in there that you can take with you while you are interviewing providers. 

Even if you’re not interviewing providers, feel free to take the questions with you to your prenatals. They always say, “Do you have any questions?” Well, usually, in prenatal visits, and a lot of the times, we don’t really have any questions or we don’t really know what questions to ask. But a lot of these questions are really great to do a little check-in and see if your provider is truly supportive of your desires of the way you want to birth. 

Sometimes that’s in regards to a VBAC and sometimes that’s maybe through your research and you are learning that you are not comfortable or you are not desiring a VBAC. Talk about a CBAC or talk about having a scheduled Cesarean. Ask those questions as well. 

We also have a blog on CBAC if you are not wanting to VBAC and how to do a family-centered Cesarean as well. We will provide those in the show notes for you and definitely suggest taking these with you along with your provider because it can help. And if you’re like Zoei and you run into a situation where a nonsupportive provider comes in, like she said, stand your ground. This is your birth. It’s okay to be strong. It’s okay to advocate for yourself. So I’m proud of you. So happy for you. Huge congrats and thank you so much for being with us today. 

Zoei: Thank you so much. I’m so glad to be here and just have one more thing to add. If any doctor is trying to use fear tactics, the last thing you want to do is make a decision out of fear. 

Meagan: Yes.

Zoei: That is not going to give you the results that you want.

Meagan: Yes. 

Zoei: Do what your heart is telling you but don’t do it because you are afraid.

Meagan: Yeah. Earlier before we started talking, you were talking about, “Don’t make a decision that is fueled by fear.” That can happen. Sometimes, when you’ve got scary things coming in and being said, you feel like you have to make a quick decision. 

Zoei: Mhmm. 

Meagan: Because those scary things seem urgent. Sometimes it might be. Sometimes it’s like, “We have to go down for a C-section,” and you have to make those decisions really quickly, but a lot of the time, you can stop. Wait. Discuss. Look at the pros, the cons, and the alternatives, and really go through things. Do not make a decision that is fueled by fear, but fueled by education, peace, knowledge, and following your intuition. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We polled our social media followers asking what more you’d like to see from The VBAC Link. You asked for more stories about vaginal births after multiple Cesareans. Well, today is that day. We LOVE our VBAMC mamas!

Sarah-Ann joins us from Canada to share her beautiful journey of healing and empowerment through her two Cesarean birth experiences, lots of research, a supportive community, and The VBAC Link podcast. She gives so many great ideas on how to prepare physically, spiritually, and mentally for a VBA2C. 

Sarah-Ann defied the doctors who told her that her pelvis was too small and that a VBAC after two C-sections was literally impossible. Sarah-Ann, we applaud your courage and are so proud of you!

Additional links

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

The VBAC Link Blog: Why Failure to Progress is Usually Failure to Wait

Five Minute Fear Release Video

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello, hello. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link. I still don’t know when it’s going to be normal for me to not have Julie on here with me. It’s still so weird to not say this is Julie and Meagan, but this is Meagan and I’m so excited to be with you guys today. Back when school was starting, I posted on social media and asked people what they would like to see from The VBAC Link now that all of my kids are in school full time. I’m really going to be diving in on The VBAC Link. A lot of people said that they want more stories of vaginal birth after two Cesareans. 

Today is that day. We have a VBA2C story with you today. We have our friend, Sarah-Ann, and she is going to talk about her journey through her two C-sections and then her VBAC. Before we started recording, we talked about a lot of similarities between her and my history with Cesarean and how crazy it is that if you go through so many people’s journeys, and if you go through all of these episodes, you’re going to find a lot of similarities with misconceptions. Some of those misconceptions are a small pelvis, a big baby, your body can’t dilate, failure to progress, and all of these things. 

She has similar things like I did in my story, so I’m excited to hear more about what she went through and how she navigated through into a vaginal birth after two C-sections. At the end, we are going to talk a little bit more about those misconceptions and what we can do to avoid them and educate ourselves so that if they do come up, we know how to navigate that. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Of course, I have a Review of the Week, so I’m going to jump right into that, and then we will get into this wonderful story. This is from Renee. It’s from Apple Podcasts. Her tag is, Re-nee-nee, but I’m thinking it’s Renee. It says, “Best Podcast Ever. I am so happy I found this podcast. I had a C-section in early 2019 after two days of failed induction. It really caused a lot of stress on me and even though recovery was fine, my emotions were all over the place. I knew the minute we started trying for our second, I wanted to try for a VBAC. Listening to these stories helped me become so educated and confident in my body. I did have my successful VBAC last month and couldn’t be happier. I’ve learned that believing in yourself and having a provider in your corner really makes all the difference. Julie and Meagan are inspirational, positive, and so easy to listen to.”

Aww, that makes me so happy. Thank you, Renee, or Re-nee-nee. Congrats on your VBAC and thank you for sharing with us. Just like she said, there are so many factors that come into play when going for a VBAC and not even just for a VBAC, just having a baby in general. You really want to have that supportive provider who supports the desires of the way you want to birth. You want to have a supportive community feel whether it be a doula, family member, of course, birth partner, you want everyone in your space to be in your corner. It really does make a difference. 

If you haven’t already, please leave us a review. I love seeing the emails come in and adding them to this queue so we can read them here on the podcast. You can leave them on Apple Podcasts, Google, and Facebook. You can email us. You can Instagram message us. You can Facebook message us. Google review, wherever you are, you can leave a review. We would love it and we may just be reading your review on the next podcast. 

Sarah-Ann’s story

Meagan: Okay, Ms. Sarah-Ann. 

Sarah-Ann: Hello! 

Meagan: Are you excited? I’m so excited. 

Sarah-Ann: I’m very excited, yes. 

Meagan: I really appreciate you being here today and like I said, so many of our followers are wanting more vaginal birth after multiple Cesarean stories because sadly, in today’s world, it’s harder to not even achieve but to find a provider to support you in vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans. So thank you for being here today and I’m so excited about your story. 

Do you have anything that you’d like to tell our audience before you’d like to dive into your story?

Sarah-Ann: You know, I think I’m just really excited to share my story and like you said, the provider thing is huge which I will touch on, and then yeah. I’m very, very excited. I applied two years ago to be on the podcast, and so when I got that email, I pretty much jumped for joy. 

Meagan: I know. We took our big, long break and everything. It’s so good to be back. I’m loving all of the stories and it is so fun. We have seriously so many podcast submissions. It was so fun to go back to some of the old ones and send out those emails and see. Because yeah, we sent out a lot of emails and it was like, boom. Scheduled! We are so grateful for you. I would love to turn the time over to you to share these beautiful stories of yours. 

Sarah-Ann: Okay, wonderful. Thank you so much for that. I think the way that I want to kick things off is that I want to touch a little bit on prebaby because it kind of tells the full story. But before I do, I just want to mention a trigger warning. I will touch on the topic of miscarriage. 

When my husband and I finally decided that we were going to start trying for a baby, I was very, very naive when it came to anything regarding planning for a baby, the conception process, and just the overall pregnancy journey. So when I did get pregnant after three or four months of trying, I was absolutely elated. I immediately began planning everything, but what actually ended up happening was that I had a miscarriage. I found out at about the 9-week mark just at a routine ultrasound that the baby had stopped growing around 5-6 weeks. 

I felt very, very betrayed by my body and very angry that I had lost this opportunity to enjoy any sort of, in my mind at the time, it was being able to enjoy any future pregnancies. That ignorant bliss, I guess, for a lack of a better word. But what ended up happening was that I was actually pregnant within one cycle after the miscarriage. To put it into perspective, I had a D&C on April 11th, and then by June 10th, I had a positive pregnancy test in my hand. 

I really didn’t allow myself a lot of time to grieve or go through the process of all the emotions from the miscarriage which, subsequently, also carried into my second pregnancy. With my first baby, I was pregnant with my firstborn and I quite literally was a complete puddle of emotion the entire pregnancy. Anything that I felt or I didn’t feel created extreme anxiety for me. I literally worried about everything. 

Because of that experience of going through the miscarriage, I let fear play a large role in how my pregnancy played out. I think that parts of it actually contributed to my C-section. For example, I stopped moving in any way. I stopped exercising. I was quite an active person before getting pregnant, but I had all of these fears in my mind that can sometimes spiral. I let that fear eat away at me, so I stopped exercising. I really indulged in that whole eating-for-two mentality. Outside of staying away from the recommended foods to avoid, I didn’t really eat healthy which actually led to quite a bit of weight gain. 

So aside from that, going back to this whole theme of being very naive because I feel like the topic of pregnancy and preparing for childbirth is not a widely discussed conversation at least in the OB world. I did have an OB and pretty much, I listened to anything and everything that he told me. I really did not know that I had a choice in anything at all or if I had the ability to have questions. 

I remember being close to full term and being told at one point, “Okay, we’re going to do a sweep today at this appointment.” I had no idea what that was. I actually didn’t even know that I had the option to decline. For other examples, I remember my doctor talking to me about pain management and being told that I needed to get an epidural.  

He said that it’s completely unnecessary for women to try to do childbirth without any pain intervention and upon reflection, I was really only educated on the things that the practice I was at wanted me to know or had opinions on, so I really didn’t know that I had alternative choices offered. 

Meagan: And he wasn’t making it sound like there were any either. 

Sarah-Ann: No, no. Pretty much was just like, “This is the way it is. This is what you need to do.”

Meagan: Yeah. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, and so when I finally did go into labor, they were actually very, very inconsistent and all over the place for over 24 hours. I actually didn’t know what was going on. I was like, “Why isn’t labor picking up? It’s been over 24 hours.” But what I didn’t realize at the time was that this could possibly be a sign of a poorly positioned baby. 

I also had an anterior placenta. I think it’s important to note that I reclined for most of my pregnancy. For those who follow the Spinning Babies, for example, my belly button was always straight up in the air for most of my pregnancy. Even though I didn’t know it at the time, my baby was actually OP. 

I think it was sometime around 2 centimeters that I went into the hospital. I was immediately admitted within the hour even though I was still in very, very early labor. In hindsight, I wish I had actually been sent home to continue moving and trying to get labor to pick up a little bit more on its own. They requested the epidural even though I wasn’t really in a whole lot of pain. But again, going back to that conditioning that I had been told by my doctor, “Just get the epidural right away.” 

So again, I’m only at about 2-3 centimeters. I’ve now had the epidural. I’m completely laid up in bed on my back. Nobody has offered for me to be turned. Nobody has offered me a peanut ball, for example. My doctor comes in around 4 centimeters. He says, “Let’s just get things moving. I’m going to break your water and we’ll get you on Pitocin. Let’s get things moving along.” 

Baby was completely fine at this point. There were really no contradictions to anything that was happening. It was more or less just him saying, “Let’s pick things up.” I lay in bed for the next five hours. Again, not moving, just completely on my back and unsurprisingly, the doctor came in five hours later, I was still at 4 centimeters and had not progressed at all. He just basically said, “You know what? We need to do a C-section.” Because of the miscarriage that I had gone through and all of the things leading up to that point, I pretty much just agreed. 

So that was my firstborn. It was a little girl. She came in weighing 7 pounds and 15 ounces. 

Meagan: Which is a perfect size. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, yeah. I really didn’t have a whole lot of ill feelings towards that labor and delivery. I honestly just thought it was a one-off. Again, not being educated and being very naive, I just figured that was just what happened that time around and the next time would be totally different and I would just have a VBAC. 

I got pregnant with my second 10 months later, so 10 months after my C-section. My oldest two are about 20 months apart. I was more relaxed this time around, but I still didn’t take the opportunity to educate myself. I did switch providers and go with more of a primary network of care providers here in Edmonton. I had this one doctor. She was my one doctor for all of the prenatal care, but the doctors who delivered the babies were on a rotational basis. There was an opportunity to do a meet and greet, but it was kind of like a you-get-who-you-get when you go into labor kind of thing. 

And so again, as I was reflecting and going through my notes for this session, it’s funny how some of those red flags actually come up with some of the things that were told to me by my provider. I wanted to share some examples. One of the things that was said to me was, “You know, if you’re feeling really anxious in any way about this delivery because you’ve already had a C-section, you could literally walk into a hospital right now and they have to give you a C-section.” So no talk or encouragement about a VBAC at this point. It was just like, “Go get your C-section.”

Another thing that was said was, “Please know if things don’t work out the way that you want them to, you will never again have the opportunity to try for a VBAC.” So again, all of this conditioning was going into my mind. It just adds a lot of pressure, so in my mind at the time, I’m thinking, “Oh my goodness. If I don’t have a VBAC this time around, I’ll never get the opportunity to do it again.”

And then the third quote I wanted to share was, I had asked my provider, “Does this impact fertility and future children if I have to have a C-section this time around?” She was like, “No, no, no, no, no. You can have as many C-sections as you want. It doesn’t affect anything in any way. I once saw a woman who had ten C-sections.” She actually said this in a very admirable tone and so it was almost like it was very glamorized. Again, reflecting I’m like, “Why did I not recognize these red flags?”

If I’m comparing it to my first as well, I think I had a very similar pregnancy. Again, I did not engage in the healthiest of lifestyles, did not exercise, and didn’t eat properly. I gained a considerable amount of weight, reclined my entire pregnancy, and when I started to get close to term, I started to stress a crazy amount. I stressed and stressed and stressed. I was like, “Why am I not going into labor? I need to go into labor early. This baby is just getting bigger,” and so it just compounded on top of everything else that I was going through from a mental perspective knowing in my mind, thinking at the time, “You’ll never get the chance to do this again if you don’t have your VBAC.” So just very, very stressed. 

I opted for two or three sweeps a week. I tossed and turned every night just desperately waiting for any sign of labor to come. Labor actually did start on its own eventually. I was about a week past due and it was a very identical pattern to my first. Very inconsistent, irregular contractions all over the place, would not pick up, just stop-start. Again, not realizing at the time that my baby was an OP baby. I did have an anterior placenta this time around as well. 

I went to the hospital again too early in very, very early labor but because I was a past C-section mom, I was immediately admitted. You start to get those individuals who start to come to talk. They share their views and perceptions on C-sections and VBACs as well. I remember being tracked down in the hall at one point when I was walking through my contractions and the nurse said, “Oh, I just talked to your doctor. She wants to break your water. It’s not going to do anything other than picking things up. What do you say?”

I honestly didn’t know at the time that if you break your water too early and baby is in a poor position that this can make them more or less be further stuck, right?

Meagan: Right, yeah. Which, in your first birth, I’m like, “Okay, OP baby. 4 centimeters. Water breaks. Baby comes down OP. It’s going to take longer to dilate.”

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, exactly. 

Meagan: Right? Mhmm. 

Sarah-Ann: Pretty much the exact same thing was happening with this second baby. So now that my water was broken, I needed the epidural because the contractions were so strong. I made it to about 6 centimeters this time around. I was so frozen, though, from the epidural. I couldn’t even wiggle my toes. It was just cranked to the max. 

Baby went into distress at this point. They called for a second opinion. I was actually very, very devastated at this point around that I knew things were starting to look like a C-section. A seasoned doctor came in and something happened to me that was actually very, very profound and played a very, very large role in my third pregnancy which was my VBAC after 2 C-sections. He did a check on me and he said, “Your baby is sunny-side up and your pelvis is shaped like a V.” He held his index finger and his middle finger up in a V shape. He said, “Baby is not going to come.”

I’ll touch on that when I go into my third pregnancy, but just that single moment right there of him telling me that I had this V-shaped pelvis which later on, in my mind, I thought was an Android-shaped pelvis. It really played a large mental game for me. 

So baby was born. He was born stunned and very unresponsive. It was quite traumatic and I do recall a lot of Code Pink being shouted over and over. It was pretty much a whirlwind of a birth and very, very traumatic. He was my second born, a little boy. He weighed 9 pounds and 5 ounces. He was quite a bit bigger. But in hindsight, nothing that I think I would have had trouble with if the baby had been better positioned.

He actually ended up having to be in the NICU for a few days. While he was in the NICU, I was recovering in my room. This one nurse came in and she was so kind. I remember her so vividly in my mind. I actually only ever saw her once. She never came back after that. She said something to me. She said, I was telling her how disappointed and sad I was that I didn’t get my VBAC. She said in the most casual tone ever, “Well, maybe your next one will be your VBAC.” It was so profound for me. I was like, “How could this experienced labor nurse be telling me something that apparently all of these doctors had been telling me that I could never have a VBAC after 2 C-sections?”

I was like, “Wait a minute. What are you telling me? This is an actual thing?” This actually opened up a whole new door because, at this point, I was starting to realize in my mind that there was not a consistent form of care or approach to C-sections and VBACs as I had originally thought. I just thought that this was the rule and this was the way it was and that’s the way it had to be. But obviously, it’s not the truth. 

Meagan: Well, and you are not alone out there. A lot of people do. A lot of people will have conversations with me. I talk about what I do all the time and they will say, “What do you do?” I say that I talk about birth after Cesarean options and they are like, “Well, there aren’t any options so what do you talk about?” And I’m like, “There actually are options.” Then we talk about my story and they are like, “No you didn’t.” Yeah, I did. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, yeah. It’s just crazy. So it was actually as I reflect on everything as a whole, that was a very distinct moment in my memory that really changed the course of things for me for my future pregnancy. So at my 6-week follow-up appointment after having my second C-section, I actually went and saw this doctor who had delivered my son. I asked him about a VBAC the next time around. He was so hesitant. He shook his head. He was so reluctant. He said, “Your baby would need to be less than 7 pounds for you to even be able to do it. No doctor in their right mind will induce you.”

So again with the misinformation, right? These doctors had different opinions as far as the way things should be done and how things should be done. They say it to you as a matter of fact as opposed to their opinion. So it really plays on you having to try and decipher what is truth in this, what is maybe not necessarily the truth, but at that point, I had already had a sudden thirst for the truth. I remember going home and putting out this post. In Canada here, we have this Canada-wide baby forum where you can ask all of these anonymous questions for all of these different groups. 

So in the VBAC group, I had asked this question. I said, “Is this true what this doctor told me?” This one woman responded to me and she was like, “It’s not like they can tie you down to a table and force you to have a C-section.” I was like, “Whoa.” This was just like all of this light opening up in front of me. I was like, “Okay. Things are going to be different the next time around.”

I knew going into my third pregnancy because we wanted to have three children, I knew things would be different this time around. I actually got pregnant with my third. My youngest two are exactly two years apart, so when I got pregnant with her, I actually started my preparations well in advance of being pregnant with her because I was very determined to do everything differently from the start. 

Even before I was pregnant, for that year leading up to me even trying to conceive with my husband, I began preparing my body before I was even pregnant. I brought my BMI down to, I think it was about a 23. I exercised regularly. I enrolled in hot yoga because I wanted to learn how to loosen my body and take a little bit more of a holistic approach to taking care of myself. I actually started going to, this was pre-COVID, we had a VBAC support group here in Edmonton that I had come across, so I started attending some of those meetings before COVID happened. 

Really, any information that I could find on VBACs after two Cesareans, I literally devoured immediately. I think this was at this point that I came across The VBAC Link which quite honestly changed my life both from an information perspective and also a community perspective because as you know, the community there is huge, huge, huge. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Sarah-Ann: Everyone is so supportive, so it was really quite literally life-changing. 

Meagan: I know. I love the Facebook community and our little private group. Everyone is so sweet in there. There is so much love. 

Sarah-Ann: Yes, yeah. Regardless of the outcome, like you said, there is just so much love and support. 

 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Sarah-Ann: So yeah. I actually did some research on placentas because I had read that there is an increased chance of OP babies when you have an anterior placenta. It’s funny. I’m by nature a stomach sleeper. I always have been. I have read that when you’re trying to conceive that if you sleep on your back, you have a higher chance of a posterior placenta. I don’t really know if there is any truth to that, but I will say that I changed from being a stomach sleeper to a back sleeper while I was trying to conceive my third baby. 

Meagan: Interesting. 

Sarah-Ann: Yes and I ended up having a posterior placenta. 

Meagan: Really? Oh my goodness. I’m actually a back sleeper too and I always worried about having an anterior placenta. I always ended up having a posterior placenta, but wow. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. I can’t even remember where I came across that information, but I told my midwife that too and she had the same reaction. She’s like, “That makes sense.” I was like, “Yeah.” 

Meagan: Yeah, gravity. 

Sarah-Ann: Exactly, just the natural law of gravity. 

Meagan: Interesting, okay. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Some of the other things I did, I had seen I think it was Julie who did a 5-minute fear release video on YouTube. 

Meagan: Oh yes, she did. 

Sarah-Ann: Yep, yep. I started to recognize the importance of not only physical preparation like healing my body but also the mental component as well. So healing your mind for it, working through all of those fears, working through the trauma. I saw a birth trauma therapist to work through some of the trauma from my second birth. 

I wanted to touch on this as well. I did this emotion code therapy as well. I’m not sure how many people are too familiar with it. It’s kind of like a form of Reiki but basically, it was developed by this chiropractor actually. Basically, what it is, it works on releasing trapped emotional energy in certain parts of your body to try and release the negative energy that is being housed there from past trauma. 

Meagan: Love that. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. I guess it’s a profound thing that happened to me during one of the sessions. I was working with this woman and we were going through the session. She was working on releasing this energy with me. I had never told her ever, never discussed really with anyone that I had a miscarriage. While she was working on my pelvis, she stopped so suddenly and looked at me. She said, “I’m so sorry to ask this, but have you ever had a miscarriage before?” 

I was so taken aback. I was like, “Um, yes I have.” I was really caught off guard. She said, “I’m so sorry to be abrasive and ask this question so frank to you, but your baby just told me that it was the baby from the miscarriage and that it’s come back to you.” And she started crying. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Sarah-Ann: Even I get choked up thinking about it. Obviously, tears were flowing down my face. For those who are active in the spiritual community or have the belief in a higher faith or a higher belief and have that faith, this was really profound for me. It was really a full-circle experience that I was going through. 

I did want to mention that as well because it was something that was really special that I experienced during the pregnancy. 

Meagan: That’s pretty unique too. It’s a unique thing to hear and be told and to have her feel that. That’s pretty cool.  

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and to hear her cry. To see the emotion, because I feel like people can just say that here and there, but just to see the emotion in her face and to see the overwhelm that she was going through, I was like, “Wow. This is intense.” 

But yeah, so it was pretty profound. And then just some of the other things that I did differently this time around, when I did eventually find out I was pregnant, I was like, “Okay.” I applied for a midwife. I hired a doula. I enrolled in Hypnobabies classes. There were so many things that I did differently this time around. I was very, very active. I did cardio 4-5 times a week. I saw a chiropractor. I saw an acupuncturist. I really just did everything that I thought was within my power to do. I worked on food. I saw a dietician to help me make healthier food choices and I found Spinning Babies, for example, and did forward leaning inversions for 45 seconds every day. And then just really worked on all of those different pain management techniques with my doula. 

I really felt that I had done as much as I possibly could within my power to prepare for this labor regardless of what the outcome was. So for me, in those final weeks, the biggest thing for me was that mental game, just accepting that whatever was meant to be will be, that it’s going to be okay either way, just trying to relax and work on that mental component, and not stressing. 

I guess in my final week leading up to the delivery, I really was relaxed. I pampered myself. I stopped working out. I really just wanted to breathe and make sure I was having a very positive experience. I also never had a single sweep the entire pregnancy nor did I have a check. My midwife was completely fine with that. She was like, “Literally, your cervix isn’t going to tell me anything until you are in labor. I’m totally on board with you.” 

Meagan: I love that personally because it really doesn’t. It doesn’t tell us anything. Even in early labor, when we’re in early labor, it’s not telling us much besides the fact that we’re in early labor, right? 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So I really didn’t actually have my first check until I was in the hospital with her because our midwives here have hospital access. I’m not sure if it’s like that everywhere. 

I went into labor with my third baby on Canadian Thanksgiving, Sunday morning. It was such a beautiful experience. I woke up. I was calm. My husband was calm. We just relaxed the whole day. At about 8:00-9:00 at night was when things really started to hit me hard and fast. This was again, a very new experience to me because as I mentioned in my first two labors, it was that stop-start. I couldn’t figure out what was going on. There was no rhyme or reason to the labor pattern, but once I hit a more active stage, it was like, “Wow. This is super, super intense.”

They were coming at me very consistently. I think I threw up a couple of times, but my doula assured me that it was totally normal. She seemed totally okay with it even though I was like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t believe that I’m throwing up in front of her.” 

Meagan: Listen. Burps, toots, and pukes. Burps, toots, and pukes. Those things are good signs. That’s what I always tell my clients. When they’re like, “I’m so sorry I’m burping.” I’m like, “This is a good thing. Baby is moving down. Air is moving.” 

Sarah-Ann: Yep, exactly. A new experience for me, but like I said, she was totally cool with it. But the intensity did overwhelm me. Contrary to what some others feel, I actually felt a lot safer being in the hospital. I never really felt like it was an unsafe space for me. Because our midwives have hospital access, we just get our room, and then, for the most part, we’re supposed to be left alone. 

Now, because I was going for a VBAC after two Cesareans, there were some doctors at the hospital who were a little uptight about what was happening. I remember my midwife saying to me that she got cornered in the hallway being like, “Why are you doing this?” But she was like, “Listen. We’re doing this.” 

During my first check after I got into the hospital, my midwife was like, “You know what? Let’s just do a check so we have a baseline.” So this was my first time. My doula was like, “Whatever it is, don’t worry. It’s just a baseline.” I was 2 centimeters and I will have to admit that I was very surprised that I was only 2 centimeters after the intensity of what I was experiencing because again, it was so new to me. But again, it really didn’t mean anything at that point. 

I labored on the toilet and in the shower. I did some hypnosis and I had a bit of help from some morphine. At one point, one of the doctors came in. He was quite rude. He had said that he had looked up all of my last reports and one of the reports had shown that I had a T-incision for my last C-section. 

Meagan: Oh really?

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. This was complete news to me and complete news to my midwife because she had obviously gone through all of my histories so I had no idea where this came from. I had never heard it in any of my past reports or follow-up appointments. It was literally the first time I had ever heard it. So he had said that it actually increases the risk by 5% or more. I don’t know the stats. I don’t know if that’s true, but that’s just what he said to me. He was quite aggressive about it. 

I literally looked him in the eye. I said, “Unless I or my baby are in danger, I’m not consenting to anything.” I actually didn’t see him again after that, so I think he just wanted to come in and make his point, then he left after that. 

Meagan: Interesting. Have you since gone back and looked through any of your op reports to see if you do, in fact, have a special scar? 

Sarah-Ann: No, I should though. The way he positioned it was that during the second C-section, there was a tear while they were doing it and I think that’s what led to the T-incision, but I’m not quite sure. 

Meagan: So you had a vaginal birth after two C-sections with a special scar potentially. 

Sarah-Ann: Yes, yes. 

Meagan: Wow, okay. Well, that just adds a little spin to your story.

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. 

Meagan: All right, keep going. I’m excited. Keep going. He leaves the room. He leaves the room. 

Sarah-Ann: He leaves the room and doesn’t come back. I’m quite glad that he doesn’t come back because he brought negative energy to the room. Quite frankly, I think that he wanted to come in and assert his authority or whatever they want to do at that point. Everything was fine. Baby was doing beautifully. I was totally good. Like I was saying, I was laboring in the bathroom. I lost my mucous plug. I think it was about 9:30 in the morning at this point. 

I was about 4 centimeters dilated. Contractions were still coming very consistently on their own. It was about 11:00 and I finally, I didn’t want to but I felt that at this point, I had been laboring for over 24 hours and I wanted the epidural. My doula and my husband were like, “Wait a second. Are you sure? You’ve literally spent the last 9 months telling us that you would be super upset if you get the epidural.” I was like, “No. I’ve made peace with whatever will happen. I definitely want the epidural.”

And so while I was waiting for that, my water actually broke naturally and on its own. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, so things were still progressing very, very nicely. I got the epidural and I don’t know if the stars were just aligned for me at this point, but the epidural took effect just enough to take the edge off. I still had quite a bit of pain, but it was manageable and it was almost like a walking epidural. Even though my midwife was saying that there is no such thing because I had asked her about it, I could fully move. I could move my legs. I was changing positions on my own. I was on all fours at one point. I didn’t actually try to walk. I’m sure I could have if I wanted to though. But like I said, it just took the edge off, so it wasn’t a full-blast epidural. 

I think that really helped me with all of the position changes. 

Meagan: Right. Right. I think with the walking epidural thing, it’s that they don’t really exist meaning that you can’t really get up and walk the halls, but you can move your body. You can even have an assisted squat and things like that. I feel like they need to change it from a walking epidural to a light epidural. 

Sarah-Ann: Yes. Yes, exactly.

Meagan: Or minimal. I don’t even know. Or half epidural. You know, something because people think they can get up and walk around and usually they can’t. 

Sarah-Ann: No, yeah. But quite a bit of difference like I was saying. 

Meagan: Oh yeah. 

Sarah-Ann: Like I was saying with my second, I was so frozen. I couldn’t even move my toes to just being fully mobile. 

Meagan: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah.

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, so very, very helpful in that sense. And again, how come– I guess these are all of my questions. Why doesn’t anybody ask you, “Do you want the full blast epidural or do you want just a little bit?” Nobody talks about this and nobody asks you. 

Meagan: Right. I know. 

Sarah-Ann: I wish that they did. But yeah, so I think that it was around 3:00 in the afternoon. I was around 6 centimeters. The head was coming down nicely. Baby was managing well. We were rotating positions every 30 minutes. I was using the peanut ball. About two and a half hours later, I was 7 centimeters. There was another midwife that came in to relieve my current midwife but they all were within the same practice, so they were very, very supportive. 

At this point, because I had been in labor for quite some time, I actually started to get a little bit of a fever. It’s funny. This doctor came in to prescribe the antibiotics that were recommended by my midwives, they were preparing me. They were like, “Okay. He’s going to come in. He has a history of telling women who are trying for VBACs that their babies are going to die and that they’re going to die. So whatever he tells you, just ignore him and tell him that you want the antibiotics.” 

I was like, “Okay. I’m ready for whatever he tells me.” He comes in. He’s like, “Yeah, let’s just do some antibiotics. Sounds good,” and just walks out. The midwives look at each other in disbelief like, “I can’t believe this just happened.” They were like, “This doctor does not do this.” They were like, “Who is this guy?” So that did help me a bit out with the fever, but again, we were starting to get around the 7:00 timeframe. Baby’s heart rate baseline is now 155, but contractions are every two minutes. Now I’m about an 8, stretched to a 9 as far as progress goes. Baby was actually starting to move down nicely. 

I think it was at this point where I was like, “Oh my gosh. Is this really going to happen? I think this is going to happen.” I was in disbelief because it’s kind of like one of those moments that you have dreamt about for so long and it’s starting to come to fruition. You’re like, “Wow. This is going to happen for me.” The midwife did the check and I was almost fully dilated. There was a little bit of a lip present. She was like, “I think you’re going to do it.” I had goosebumps at that moment. I was like, “Oh my gosh. My midwife thinks that I’m going to do it.” So that was a pretty impactful thing for her to say to me.

I think right before I started pushing, one other thing that happened was that I said to her, I’m like, “Do I have an Android pelvis?” Again, that fear came back into my mind coming back from that second birth that I had where he said that I have a small pelvis and that I would never do it with a baby that is bigger than 7 pounds. She shook her head so aggressively. She was like, “Your pelvis is fine. You are going to birth this baby no problem.” 

After that, it was go-time. I started pushing. I pushed for about an hour. Baby was born via forceps, but it was only because she had that elevated heart rate. 

Meagan: It was more of a time thing. 

Sarah-Ann: It was more of a time thing, yeah. My midwife was like, “I literally had no doubt in my mind that she would have come naturally on her own,” but we thought it was best to get her out at that point. So yeah, and then they put her on my chest and she was a surprise baby. She was a girl. There were lots of tears. Everybody was cheering because I had this big birth team that had been working with me for so long. Even my midwife, I was her first VBAC after two Cesareans. It was a very, very, very special moment. 

Meagan: That’s amazing. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. 

Meagan: Congratulations. 

Sarah-Ann: Thank you. 

Meagan: So happy for you. I love it when she was like, “Your pelvis is fine.”

Sarah-Ann: She was like, “There’s nothing wrong with it.” 

Meagan: Oh man, that should be one of our next shirts. We sometimes will make– well, Julie would totally do it. She would make bonfire shirts based on quotes said in the podcast. “Your pelvis is fine.”

Sarah-Ann: Yeah, exactly. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. Well, huge congrats. That’s so amazing, so amazing. And look at that, your pelvis was fine and your body could do it. 

Sarah-Ann: I should note that she was 8 pounds. She was over the 7-pound mark. 

Meagan: Bigger, yep. Because 7,15 was your first? 

Sarah-Ann: Yep: 

Meagan: And then what was your second again? 

Sarah-Ann: 9,5. 9,5. 

Meagan: 9,5. 

Sarah-Ann: Yep. 

Meagan: But it was OP. 

Sarah-Ann: Yep. Yeah. 

Meagan: Oh, that’s so amazing. That’s so amazing. 

Well, yeah. I’d love to talk about-- so we hate this word. We hate the word “failure”. It’s really poor. When we say it, we’re referring to it in the way that medical professionals use it as a “failure to progress”. Now, my little tidbit on this. If you see “failure”, try your hardest to know that you are not a failure if you don’t give birth vaginally. You’re not a failure if you decide to get an epidural. There is no failing in birth. You are birthing a human being. That is pretty stinking incredible. It doesn’t really matter how you do it. It’s remarkable. It’s amazing. It’s so many words. You guys are amazing. You are full of strength. 

Do we talk about a failure to progress or is it a failure to wait? We believe that a lot of times, it’s a failure to wait. There’s an ACOG study that shows that before, they would deem “failure to progress” more at that 4-centimeter stage, which is kind of where you mentioned with your births where you got to 4 centimeters, they broke your water which, I will touch on the way he said that then they would wait for 4 hours and it’s done. 

Now, active labor isn’t really accurately considered super active until 6 centimeters. So even at 4 centimeters, we shouldn’t be deemed or given the term failure to progress. I was also given the term “failure to progress” and I was at 3 centimeters. 

Sarah-Ann: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah, and there’s no cervical change meaning no effacement, no station change, nothing happening, and that’s within a long time. So we have a blog about “Is it Failure to Progress or Failure to Wait?” and the things that may lead to failure to progress. One of them is breaking water prematurely. For my doula clients, they will always say, “Should I break my water?” That’s a hard question because sometimes breaking your water can totally do the trick and get your baby here pretty quickly and smoothly and it’s beautiful. Sometimes, it doesn’t. It brings baby down. Baby’s in a poor position. They start having heart rate issues and it’s just a downward spiral from there. 

But breaking your water prematurely and the way your provider did it was like, “Hey, I’m here. We’re going to get things going and I’m going to break your water.” I wanted to note to all of our listeners that a lot of providers do that. I don’t think it’s because they necessarily have any ill intent to say, “I’m doing this. You have no choice.” But the way they say it sometimes makes people feel like they have no choice. A lot of the time we go along with it kind of like you did. My water had already broken, but now I was just like, “Okay, they are telling me what they are going to do and they are just doing it.” I didn’t really play a part in my birth in that way. 

Know it’s okay to say, “Hold on. I’m not ready to break my water yet. Let’s talk about it. Let’s look at the factors.” I always tell my clients that with breaking your water, if it doesn’t happen spontaneously or naturally and they are wanting to do it artificially, it’s kind of a wildcard. We have to look at a lot of things like how high is baby? What is my baby’s position? Do we know? How is my labor pattern? Is it strong and effective or is it early on and is that why we are breaking my water is to get things to try and go? There are so many little factors so definitely check out the blog. We will make sure it’s in the show notes and then we will also include in the show notes the video that Sarah-Ann talked about that Julie did about the fear release because it’s amazing. 

And then, yeah. Anything else that you would like to say about misconceptions and the whole shebang? 

Sarah-Ann: I think the best recommendation I could give is just to really, truly believe in yourself and just surround yourself with people who believe in you because that makes such a huge difference. I hear so many and read so many stories on The VBAC Link Community of people who don’t have their group who are supportive and that’s probably why they are at the Facebook group for that support, but it makes such a huge difference. I was very, very assertive with people in my circle saying, “If you have any sort of negative thoughts or opinions, I don’t want to hear them. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you will not see me until after I have this baby if that is the case.” 

Meagan: Mhmm, mhmm. 

Sarah-Ann: So having that group is really, really important. 

Meagan: It really is. We did that. I can’t remember what they call it, a mother’s blessing, but we did a little circle thing and we all did this yarn thing. It was really cool and we connected. So each time, we would wrap a piece of yarn around our circle. It was based on a positive affirmation and that piece of yarn was a strong affirmation. It stuck with me and I wore it all through labor and my birth. I just think it’s so important to have those people who weren’t all with me physically, but every time I looked down, I remembered my circle. I remembered their words. It touched me, made me stronger, and it encouraged me to keep going. 

So get your circle and hold onto them tight. Don’t be scared to tell people that you love them and you are grateful for them, but they are not invited into your circle. It’s okay to not have people in your circle. My mom wasn’t initially one of the people in my circle. She wasn’t super supportive. She didn’t really understand why I wanted to have a vaginal birth. She thought it was scary. She didn’t know some of the risks. All of these things. She told me that I was crazy. Lots of things, right? It was really hard for me not to have my mom in my circle, but at the same time, that’s what I needed at the time to keep my circle positive. So yeah. I would definitely, definitely agree with that. 

Okay. Well, thank you so much again for being with us today. 

Sarah-Ann: Thank you. Yeah. I so appreciate it. I so enjoyed it, so thank you so much for the opportunity. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“It was the most amazing moment of my life. I still get emotional just thinking about that feeling of pushing that baby out of me and being able to have that immediate skin-to-skin that I had wanted so badly and wasn’t able to have with my daughter. I had waited and waited so long to be able to have a brand new, fresh baby boy on my chest.”

Kayana is a strong powerhouse with such a sweet, beautiful heart. Her stories are filled with so many wild twists and turns including infertility, IVF, premature birth at 31 weeks, NICU time, a miscarriage, a cerclage, progesterone shots, being abandoned by a doula, a low and slow Pitocin induction, scary postpartum hemorrhaging, and the blissful, magical VBAC moment she was dreaming of.  

We know you will learn so much from Kayana’s many experiences and leave feeling inspired by her strength and positivity!

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC After Preterm C-section

Find a VBAC Link Doula

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. It is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have another VBAC story for you today. Our storyteller today is on a road trip, so we are going to have maybe some kiddos along the way, maybe my dogs. My dog likes to bark too, so it’s going to be a fun one. We are going to bring everyone along with this birth story today.

We are going to be talking about a lot, you guys. She has so many things that really are relevant in her story. She has infertility, IVF, premature birth, miscarriage, cerclage, was actually abandoned by a doula so we are going to talk about that, induction, and postpartum hemorrhage. It’s heavy. We’ve got a lot of yummy things to go into, so I won’t take up too much time so we can definitely get into her story, but I want to do a Review of the Week and then we’ll jump right in. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Today’s review is from Amylynn Seider. Amylynn, I typed it wrong. Amylynn Seider and this is on Apple Podcasts. She says, “I really can’t express how informative and empowering this podcast has been for me following my traumatic birth in 2019. In the 16 weeks I’ve been pregnant and a listener, I feel deeply strengthened by the stories of women from across the globe and more informed thanks to the education provided by Meagan and Julie. I look forward to my VBAC in October knowing that I will be fueled by the women in this community. So very grateful.”

That was in April, so she’s coming right up on this VBAC. It’s August right now during this time that we are recording, so this is going to be fun. So Amylynn, if you wouldn’t mind, write us and tell us how things went. 

Kayana’s story

Meagan: Okay, are you excited? I am so excited. So okay, is it Kayana? Is that how you say your name?

Kayana: It’s Kay-anna.

Meagan: Kay-anna, okay. 

Kayana: Yes. It’s a hard one.

Meagan: I’ve been calling you Kay-ahna in my mind.

Kayana: No, you’re good. It’s a hard one. Even my husband said it wrong for the first three or four months of dating, so don’t feel bad. 

Meagan: Okay, and she’s in Idaho, so we are excited to hear about her journey with her two babies. If you haven’t seen her image, it’s on Instagram and Facebook. You guys, this family is beautiful so go give her a shout of love today on the post or go find it. But okay, we’ll turn the time over to you to share whatever you feel is going to be wonderful for these listeners. 

Kayana: Okay, so I guess we’ll just start from the beginning. Before we ever got pregnant with our little girl who is our first, we struggled with infertility for about four years. We don't really know the cause of it. I have been diagnosed with PCOS and so the doctors have said that that’s the reason for infertility, but there were years within that trying phase where I was on different medications and things to induce ovulation. That ovulation was confirmed. That was for months and months at a time and I still didn’t get pregnant. 

I don’t know if there’s maybe more to it than just the PCOS or what. We don’t really know. It’s kind of a question mark up in the air. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s the hardest thing when it’s a mystery like that.

Kayana: Yeah, it is because it’s just frustrating. Infertility is so hard. It’s excruciating, but yeah. We struggled for about four years with that. We tried, like I said, a bunch of rounds of medication. We tried, oh gosh, I think we did four or five IUIs, and eventually, we moved on and went ahead with IVF. 

We did an IVF round and we were so, so blessed that it worked on the first try, which, I know not everyone has that situation and I feel for that. It’s so hard. We were able to have it work the first time and we got pregnant with our sweet little baby girl. 

The pregnancy with her went pretty smoothly. I was very, very, very sick, like, throwing up 15 times a day every day. 

Meagan: Oh. 

Kayana: Yeah. 

Meagan: That does not sound pleasant. 

Kayana: No, it was awful. From week 5 until probably week 28, it was just never-ending. But other than that, it was a pretty uneventful pregnancy. She was due in August of 2018. The doctor I was seeing with her at the beginning of my pregnancy, we love him so much. He’s here in Idaho and he was with us through all of our infertility stuff. He helped us through a lot of that. He did some of our IUIs and stuff. He obviously had to hand me off to an infertility doctor for IVF, but he was with us through everything before that. 

He actually, he and his wife experienced infertility as well. So he kind of–

Meagan: Connected. 

Kayana: –just really was there for us and understood a lot of it. Yeah, and so when we went to him for our first pregnancy appointment after doing IVF, he just sat in the room and cried with us. He just, it was just so sweet. We just love him to pieces. 

We planned on him being our doctor through delivery with our baby girl, but plans changed. Out of nowhere, around 27 weeks– I think I was 27 weeks– we ended up moving out of state super last minute. It was very unexpected. We ended up leaving Idaho and moving to Washington. 

Obviously, I was devastated to leave my doctor who I loved so much. We moved up to Washington and we were in a frazzle trying to find a new doctor and things because I was 27 weeks. I was getting further along and needed more appointments at that point, but we didn’t know anything would go wrong yet. 

We got up there and I had one appointment with a doctor up there who we found. It was one of those clinics where they just cycle you through all the doctors and have you see everybody throughout your pregnancy. They had nine different doctors there at that clinic. I saw one, just whatever one they placed me with. I had one appointment with that doctor and then a couple of weeks later, I went into labor at 31 weeks. 

Yeah. Out of nowhere, totally unexpectedly, I went into labor at 31 weeks. I want to say a Saturday is where I really started feeling some contractions that were stopping me in my tracks a little bit. I feel a little silly now looking back because I didn’t really realize that that’s what it was. I was only 31 weeks, so it’s not like I was expecting to go into labor. I had heard from so many people, “Oh yeah, you start to get contractions here and there towards the end of your pregnancy and some cramping is normal.” 

You hear all sorts of things, so when I started having what I thought were just cramps, I didn’t think much of it. So that was Saturday. That continued Sunday and by Monday, it had gotten pretty dang intense. They started to get closer together and more intense. My husband and I started to think, “Okay. This is not right. I don’t think this is a normal thing to be happening at 31 weeks.” 

We started timing it. We realized just how close together they were and started to panic a little bit. We looked at each other and said, “Okay, we need to go to the hospital.” I stood up to go get my shoes on and I went to the bathroom before we left, sat on the toilet, and just gushed blood everywhere. Just so much blood. Our hearts dropped. We were freaked out. We’re like, “What is going on?”

My husband picked me up, carried me out to his truck, threw me in, and I don’t think he’s ever driven so fast in his entire life. I’m pretty sure he was going 90 mph through 35 mph speed zones. He was booking it to the hospital. We lived about 15 minutes away from the hospital. At one point actually, while we were on the freeway, a police officer ended up behind us while he was speeding so fast and followed us until he saw us turn into the hospital. He kind of backed off and left us alone. I’m sure he realized what was going on. 

Meagan: What was going on, yeah? 

Kayana: So that was kind of funny. Yeah, seriously, so he didn’t pull us over. That was Monday. We got to the hospital and sure enough, I was in full-on labor. I was between a 4 and a 5 dilated when we got there. They were able to stop the labor with medications, but they did say that “Because of how dilated you are, you are not leaving this hospital until the baby is here.” 

Of course, I’m all geared up. I’m like, “Okay. I’m going to lay in this hospital bed for another 9 weeks until my due date. That’s totally fine. I’m ready for anything. We’re going to keep this baby in. We’ll just watch shows. This is totally fine. It’s going to be fine.”

That was my mindset. I’m like, “We’ll just keep this baby in. We’ve got this.” So that was Monday. Tuesday and Wednesday passed. We were just hanging out at the hospital. My in-laws had flown in to come to see us. We’re really close with my in-laws, so they flew in to see us and spend time with us in the hospital. It was all good and then Thursday came along and they said, “Okay, one of these medications that you’re on,” I can’t remember what it was, but they said that there was one of them that you can’t be on for long periods of time without a break. They said that you could only do it for about two days at a time, then your body needs a break from it. 

So they were like, “We’re going to take you off of this and you’re just going to stay in this bed. We’re going to hope for the best. I think you’re going to be fine still, so we’re going to take you off and just see what happens.” I’m like, “Okay. Sounds good.” So that was Thursday mid-morningish. My husband and my father-in-law left to go get some lunch. My husband had not left my side for two and a half days and he was like, “I need to get out. Let’s go get some lunch.”

So they left. My mother-in-law and my sister-in-law stayed there with me. She was only like, how old was my sister-in-law at the time? She’s 16 now. My girl is 4. So she was probably 12. Am I doing that math right? Yeah, 12. Anyway, so they were there with me and after they took me off the medication, my contractions got really strong and really close again really fast. 

I called my husband and I said, “Hey, I don’t know what’s going on, but you might want to get back here. I’m not sure what’s happening.” I told my nurse a couple of different times, “Hey, things are getting more intense. It’s getting close together. Can you go get the doctor and have him check me?” She kept saying, “Oh no, you’re fine. You’re not going to progress as fast after being on all of those meds for a couple of days. It’s fine. It’s fine. It’s fine.” Well, I knew it wasn’t fine. 

Finally, I got pushy enough and said, “Please go get the doctor.” So finally, she went and got the doctor. He came in and mind you, I didn’t have any pain medication or anything at this point because we didn’t know what was going on. 

Meagan: Right, right. 

Kayana: So I’m just laboring through all of this unmedicated. He comes in and he checks me. He says, “Oh my gosh. You’re at a 9. I see your baby’s bum.” 

Meagan: Oh, oh. 

Kayana: She was bum down. She was bum down, so he said, “You’re at a 9. I see your baby’s bum. This baby’s coming.” He looked at the nurse and said, “Prepare the OR now.” It felt like seconds. Everybody ran in and I got whisked away to the OR. Luckily, my husband was back by then. They brought me in there and as they were wheeling me to the OR, I got hit with the biggest panic attack. 

That was my first time ever experiencing something like that. I don’t think that I have, I don’t know, diagnosed anxiety. I’ve never had a panic attack before. I’ve never had one since, but something about the way it was all going down and the way it was happening so quickly, and I was in pain from laboring, just everything all together was the perfect storm and I had a panic attack. I could not breathe. I thought I was suffocating. I thought that the world was just crashing down on me. I just, yeah. It was bad. I couldn’t breathe. 

They got me into the OR and they put me on the table to try to get the spinal block in for my C-section. I could not get in the correct position for that spinal block because of course like I said, I’m laboring through these contractions.

Meagan: 9 centimeters. 

Kayana: At a 9 and trying to get in this very, very specific crouched position all while literally feeling like I could not breathe. Nothing I was doing– I couldn’t breathe. I couldn’t get air, so I just couldn’t get in the position. Obviously, it was a pretty intense situation. Everybody in the room was feeling it. The anesthesiologist was yelling at me, “I need you to do this! I need you to do this! Come on!” trying to show me, and I couldn’t do it. 

All of a sudden, this nurse walks over to me, and still to this day, I think she is one of my angels. She was so sweet. I’m sure that she will never hear this. I don’t know if she listens to this podcast, but Sheena, shout out to Sheena if you ever hear this. You are my angel. 

She came right up to me. She put her hands on my shoulders. She put her forehead to mine and looked me in the eyes. She said, “Just breathe with me. We’re just going to sit here and we’re going to breathe. I’m going to help you through this.” We just stared into each other’s eyes. She helped me get some deep breaths. She helped me calm down. She helped me stop shaking and they were able to get the spinal block in me. 

There were so many tender mercies and miracles along the way, but that was definitely one of them. They got that spinal block in and literally what felt, I’m sure was more than ten seconds, but what felt like ten seconds later, I heard my baby girl crying and she was here. 

She did well. She actually scored very well on the, is it called APGAR?

Meagan: Mhmm, APGAR, mhmm. 

Kayana: Yeah, so she actually scored pretty well on that especially for being 9 weeks early, but obviously, they still had to whisk her away to the NICU. There was a whole team in the room just for her and a whole team in the room for me. They pulled her out of me and brought her around to my head. I didn’t get to hold her, didn’t get to touch her. All I got was to see her. I got one quick, little glance. They said, “Here’s your baby,” and they took her away. 

Meagan: They just didn’t say anything about anything or they just took her?

Kayana: No, I knew nothing.

Meagan: That’s so hard. 

Kayana: They took her. They whisked her off to the NICU. That was absolutely excruciating. To not know after all of that I mean, I heard her cry. 

Meagan: I’m assuming because she was early. 

Kayana: Yes, yes. So I knew she was at least alive at that point, but I didn’t know if she would be breathing because preemies lungs aren’t great. I didn’t know anything. I had told my husband before any of this happened, I said, “No matter what happens with me, I want you to go with the baby. You go. You go be in the NICU. You go be with her. Make sure she’s okay and I’ll be fine.” 

He listened to me. He respected that and he went with her to the NICU. So I knew that she would be watched over and taken care of by him at least, but it was so hard not to be able to, you know, I wanted that skin-to-skin and after trying so hard for so long to get her, she was finally here, but she wasn’t here with me. 

That was really, really hard to swallow. They finished with my C-section, took me to recovery, and if I remember correctly, it wasn’t until that next day that they allowed me to go into the NICU and go see her. So that was really, really hard. I had talked to my husband since. I had talked to him throughout the night and stuff. He was back and forth between my room and the NICU checking in on both of us, so he was giving me updates. I at least knew everything was okay, but it was so hard not to be able to actually go in, see her, and be with her until that next day. 

So yeah. That was it with my C-section story. She ended up being in the NICU for 5 weeks which was actually amazing because they told us to plan on her being there at least until her due date if not longer. That would have been 9 weeks or longer and she was only there for 5 weeks. That was such a miracle. She progressed really well and she did great in the NICU. She was able to go home about a month before her due date, so it was kind of special. I just got her for a little longer than I would have otherwise, so that was great. 

Meagan: Yeah. It’s just a journey. It’s a long time hanging out in the hospital doing all of those things, and then boom. It’s crazy that they didn’t know baby was breech before too. 

Kayana: Well, I think they did. I think they did because they had done an ultrasound and stuff when I had come in. They did know that she was breech, but I think it just all happened so fast and everything was crazy. 

Meagan: Gotcha, gotcha. 

Kayana: If I remember correctly, and obviously it’s all a blur especially now that it’s been a while, but I feel like I remember them trying to flip her and stuff too for those couple of days while I was in there. They did, what is that called where they use their hands? 

Meagan: Oh, maybe I missed that. Okay.

Kayana: But it didn’t work. She was still bum down. 

Meagan: Still bum down, yeah. 

Kayana: Yep, yep. So anyway. Yeah, that was kind of the reasoning for the C-section. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah.

Kayana: I didn’t really know at that point. I was just along for the ride. I wasn’t as educated in birth or different things, so I didn’t really do much to, “Oh, maybe we could try Spinning Babies,” or all of the things that I know now from listening to your podcast, thank you very much. But yeah, so I kind of just went with it. I was like, “Okay, it’s a C-section. I guess there’s nothing we can do.”

Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. 

Kayana: Just naive. So then when my daughter was 18 months old, we ended up moving back to Idaho, woot woot! So happy. We love our Idaho. 

Meagan: And your supportive provider that you loved. 

Kayana: Yes, exactly. I was back to that doctor and right after she turned 2, we decided to try again with IVF. That summer, the summer she turned 2, we did IVF again. We got pregnant with that and ended up miscarrying with that baby which was super, super hard. Miscarriage is its own– it’s super hard. Such a difficult thing to go through. We’re very religious so that obviously helped to know and have the testimonies that we do about families, but it’s still hard. It’s hard regardless and especially, too, after going through IVF to get that baby and spending all of that money, all of that energy, all of that physical strain that that is, and then to have that literally just go down the toilet very literally, that was really hard. 

So after that happened, we planned on waiting a little while and taking a break just for the financial strain as well as the emotion. I felt like I needed to heal emotionally, heal physically, and give my body some time before going through the whole process of IVF again because it’s a lot to go through. We felt like we wanted to wait a little bit. We felt very strongly one day that we needed to just go for it again, not wait, and just dive right back into another round of IVF. 

We figured out how to make it work financially. We pulled up our boots and just went for it again. We ended up transferring another embryo in very, very early November of 2020. Yeah, November 2020. It was Election Day. 

Meagan: I was going to say, right before the craziness started happening or I guess at the end. It was already crazy and then it was getting really crazy. 

Kayana: Yeah, exactly. It was November 3rd, 2020 when we transferred our sweet little baby boy. That obviously resulted in a pregnancy and would result in our sweet baby boy that just turned one. So with this pregnancy, we decided to take some precautions due to my history of preterm birth. We were back to my doctor in Idaho which we were so happy about because we just love him. 

He was supportive of a VBAC from the very beginning. Actually, I think before we even did IVF again and got pregnant, we had talked to him. I had asked him, “Hey, can I have a vaginal birth after this happened?” He said, “Absolutely.” He was confident in my ability to do it. He was confident in his ability to help. He said, “If that’s what you want and if that’s what you feel like you can do and you want to do, then let’s do it. What’s stopping us?” He’s like, “We’ll watch things carefully. We’ll make sure you’re safe and that the baby’s safe. Obviously, if things don’t go as planned, we can reevaluate and be open-minded.” But he was like, “Let’s go for it. Why not?”

Meagan: I love that. 

Kayana: And I love him. I love him for that. He’s just the best. We love him so much. So yeah. He was supportive of it from the beginning. 

Meagan: Do you feel like you could share his name?

Kayana: Yeah, sure. He’s in Idaho Falls. His name is Dr. Leavitt, Dr. Glenn Leavitt at Leavitt Women’s Healthcare. He has other providers at his clinic and all of the ones I have seen are all really, really good but I obviously have a special place in my heart for him. 

Meagan: Awesome. I’ll nail him down. 

Kayana: Yeah, he’s really good. He has midwives there as well. They were always very kind and very supportive as well. So yeah, he’s great. He’s in Idaho Falls and he’s a little bit of a drive for us. We had to drive about 40 minutes for each appointment with him, but it was so worth it to us. 

So yes. We decided to do some precautions. Since we didn’t really know what had caused the preterm labor with my daughter, we didn’t know if it was an incompetent cervix or if it was just random labor. We didn’t know what it was, so we decided to do a cerclage as well as progesterone shots just to cover all of our bases and that’s what my doctor felt good about as well. 

At 14 weeks, I went in for a cerclage and that went really smoothly, no complaints there. I don’t feel like it was even any sort of recovery. He told me that it would probably be a couple of days that I would be down and need to rest, but I felt great. I don’t know. I know that’s probably not everyone’s experience, but the cerclage was very uneventful for me. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. 

Kayana: Yeah, it was good. But then at 20 weeks, I started having very strong contractions that were consistent and did not feel right. I ended up zooming down to his office that day. We had originally planned to start the progesterone shots around 28 weeks, but because I was having contractions at 20 which obviously is not good at all, he had me start the progesterone shots at that point. 

So I started them at 20 weeks. That was just weekly. Just once a week, which is not too bad honestly. You have to do progesterone and stuff up until about 12 weeks with IVF, so I got a little break for a little while before I started again at 20 weeks so that was great. 

The IVF ones are daily, so once a week was not bad at all. It was just in my back right on the back of my love handle above my hip. We started that. Everything else was pretty uneventful. I stayed on the shots and things went well. I hit 35 weeks and the cerclage came out and the shots stopped at that point. We had no idea what was going to happen after that. Obviously, since I had gone into labor so early before, we didn’t know if we should expect that I would go into labor that day that the cerclage came out if it would be another 5 weeks, or another however long. We just didn’t know. 

But I did know that I wanted an unmedicated VBAC with no interventions. That’s what I wanted. I wanted to go into labor on my own with no interventions, unmedicated, and push that baby out of my vagina. That’s what I wanted. We just played the waiting game at that point. I had gotten my heart set on maybe having baby at 37 or 36 weeks just because I had the girl so early. 

Meagan: Right. 

Kayana: But it didn’t happen and it didn’t happen. I went in for my appointment at 39 weeks on the day that I turned 39 weeks and had the ultrasound. My fluid was very, very low. It was below the safe range that it should be. That was obviously a concern. 

My doctor recommended, “Hey, maybe we should induce you. I know that you don’t want to do that. I know you are trying to avoid interventions and do everything as naturally as possible.” But he said, “This could be dangerous where the fluid is so low.” This was a Thursday, so he said, “We have some options.” He said, “We can induce you today if that’s what you decide that’s what you want to do,” or he said, “We can wait through the weekend and have you come in first thing Monday morning and check again and see how things are going.” He’s like, “Honestly, you could go into labor over the weekend or you could come on Monday and we will see what happens and reevaluate then.”

He said, “Basically, just go home. Pray about it. Talk to your husband. Make a decision and call me and let me know what you want to do.” So I said, “Okay.” I left his office obviously very flustered, upset, worried, and stressed trying to decide what was going to be the best decision to do because like I said, I wanted to avoid induction because I knew just from listening to you guys and from the research that I had done that the fewer interventions you do, the more likely you are to be able to accomplish that VBAC and avoid another Cesarean. 

I was kind of a wreck on that 40-minute drive home trying to decide. I was praying and like I mentioned earlier, we are very religious. We believe in personal revelation from God and that He’ll help you make big decisions like that. I called my husband. We talked about it. I was crying. I hung up with him and prayed some more. I just felt very, very strongly that we needed to go ahead and get induced that day. 

Even though that wasn’t what I wanted, I knew that was what we needed to do and that’s what was going to be the best decision for us, for me, and for my baby. So I got home. My husband and I confirmed with each other that he had gotten that answer as well through his prayers. We called my doctor and said, “Okay. We will see you tonight.” 

We made the arrangements. We got our daughter all situated with my amazing mother-in-law that watched her for us while we were there at the hospital. We made sure that everything was ready to go with our bags and headed to the hospital. Oh yeah. So another thing was that we had the hospital that we wanted to go to for the birth. It was a smaller hospital, a little bit newer. It was more naturally minded which was the kind of thing that I like and prefer. So we wanted to go there, but it turned out that they were full. There were a lot of babies being born that day, so we weren’t able to go to that hospital. 

We went to the other one, the bigger hospital across the street. Luckily, they were really close. They were able to get us in. They got us all checked in. That was at about 7:00 p.m. that we got there. We got us checked in, got me changed. I was only dilated to a 1 when I got to the hospital. 

Meagan: I was just going to ask what you were dilated to because the cerclage had been out, so I was curious if you had started dilating. 

Kayana: Yeah. The cerclage had been out for what was that? Four weeks at that point?

Meagan: Yeah, quite a while. 

Kayana: It came out at 35 and it was the day I turned 39, so it had been out for 4 weeks. Like I said, we expected to go early again, as I had before, once it was out, but my body just had different plans. I was only at a 1 when I got there. They started me on Pitocin around 8:00 p.m. I walked laps around the labor and delivery floor for hours. My husband and I just walked around and around and around trying to get contractions going, but nothing was happening. I wasn’t feeling any contractions. My monitor was showing that some were happening, but they were really light. I wasn’t feeling them. So it felt a little bit discouraging and frustrating that it seemed that no progress was being made.

From 8:00 up until about midnight, there was nothing. We just walked and walked trying to get things going, tried different positions and nothing was working. So at midnight, my doctor came into the room and he asked if I wanted him to go ahead and break my water manually to help things move along. I told him, “Yes. Let’s go ahead and do that. Let’s get things going. I don’t want to be here for three days.”

He went ahead and broke my water. He used the crochet-hook-looking thing. Contractions started almost immediately after that. They were strong and they were progressive. They were doing their thing and they were there. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Kayana: Yeah. They started going. That was at midnight that he broke the water and everything started moving along. I labored through the night just to try different positions and different natural coping mechanisms that I had read about and learned about beforehand. I had my husband do the hip counterpressure on me. I ended up laboring in a hot shower for a little while with the water running on my back which felt amazing, just lots of walking, changing positions, bouncing on the ball, you know, all of that fun jazz. 

Obviously, it got more and more intense as the night went on. We’ll talk about my doula at the end, but my doula didn’t show– spoiler alert. She did not show up, but luckily my nurse that I had was a little bit older and she was very naturally minded which was such a blessing. She knew a lot of tips and tricks for helping with labor and different positioning. She was all for it, so that was a big blessing to be able to have her show me things and try different things with me to help with the pain management because I really, really wanted to go unmediated and not get an epidural. 

So it was a blessing that she had that naturally minded attitude and was able to help me with things. So midnight, broke water, and things started. By 6:00 a.m., I was fully dilated. I did have a little bit of a lip. They said that I was good to go to start pushing which, looking back, I think, was a little premature. I wish that I would have waited until I had the urge myself and felt that need. Lesson learned for next time but in the moment, sometimes you’re just going for it. You’re just in your own world and it didn’t even cross my mind. 

I knew beforehand that I should wait for the urge to push. I had read, done the research, and listened to so many episodes from you guys. I knew that I should wait, but in the moment, I guess I kind of just forgot. I was just trying to get done, get through it, be done with the pain, and get my baby here. It just kind of went over my head. I should have waited, but I started pushing when they told me to. I did have a little bit of a lip. It ended up that I had to push for about two hours. 

The baby kept getting, not getting stuck necessarily, but it kept hitting against my pelvic bone and he was just having a hard time getting out. I was having a hard time pushing. I was just so exhausted from labor and everything. So I pushed for two hours which was so hard. Honestly, having that being my first time ever pushing a baby out, I was shocked at how hard the pushing part was. It was amazing, but it was hard. I felt like it was harder than the pain of labor and getting to that point. Not more painful, it wasn’t painful for me, it was just hard. It was not something I was expecting. 

I pushed for two hours and ended up needing a small episiotomy which, again, my doctor was so respectful and so good about everything. He did ask before it, “Hey, is it okay if I give you just a little episiotomy just to help get this baby out?” So he did that and baby pushed out at exactly 8:00 a.m.

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Kayana: It was the most amazing moment of my life. I still get emotional just thinking about it, just that feeling of pushing that baby out of me and being able to have that immediate skin-to-skin that I had wanted so badly and wasn’t able to have with my daughter. I just waited and waited so long, it felt like, to be able to have a brand new, fresh baby boy on my chest. Sorry. 

Meagan: You’re fine. 

Kayana: It was the most amazing feeling. He was so perfect and so beautiful. It was the most incredible thing I’ve ever felt. I felt so whole and just so healed from that previous experience. I couldn’t stop crying. I felt like I was crying and smiling and laughing all at the same time. I just couldn’t stop. My husband was there, obviously, by my side and he was so happy too. I just kept saying over and over again– all I could think to say was, “We did it. He’s here. He’s here. We did it. I can’t believe we did it. He’s here.” Just over and over, “He’s here. We did it. We did it.” It was just amazing. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Kayana: Yeah, he was here. He was safe. He was healthy. I had my baby boy with me. I had accomplished my VBAC and I was so proud. 

Meagan: You should be. 

Kayana: I was. I was so proud. I still am. We enjoyed a few blissful moments of that before I noticed the energy in the room completely shifted. My doctor is very, very confident. He’s very experienced and I’ve never really seen him worry too much, but I could tell by his face that he was a little bit worried and something was going on. Everyone started rushing around me. Nurses were putting all of their weight on my stomach trying to push on it. It turned out I was hemorrhaging really, really badly. 

I think at least the explanation I remember getting, was just that my body was super worn out from pushing for so long to try to get the baby out that it kind of just exhausted itself and had a hard time delivering the placenta. The doctor ended up elbow deep inside of me trying to pull things out. That didn’t help. I was still bleeding, so I ended up with an emergency D&C while laying on the bed completely unmedicated. 

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say whoa. I’m sure that was intense. 

Kayana: Had the little metal scraper and everything, you know, casually performing a D&C on me. He ended up having to do that twice, so I ended up having a double emergency D&C laying there unmedicated. It was absolutely excruciating. Literally, the only thing keeping me calm through all of this was that sweet baby boy on my chest. I just held onto him and just tried to stay as calm as I could while I was going through all of this pain and these D&Cs and everything going on. 

My husband was obviously very, very freaked out, nervous, and didn’t know what to think. He was obviously very worried about what was going to happen to me, but that baby kept me calm. I was able to get through that. They finally, after the second D&C, were able to get the bleeding to stop, and get the placenta fully delivered. But through all that, I lost about twice the amount of blood as you would in a normal vaginal delivery is what they said. 

I believe, if I remember right, it was about 1 liter of blood that I lost. 

Meagan: Wow, that’s a lot. 

Kayana: Yeah, kind of scary. I was exhausted for quite a while after that. I didn’t really realize. I was out of it a little bit. I was naive thinking, “Oh yeah, I just pushed a baby out. That’s why I feel like crap,” but I think that a lot of it was the fact that I had lost so much blood and didn’t really realize in the moment how big of a deal it had really been until after the fact and after my husband was telling me everything that had happened days later, going through everything with me, and telling me how scary it really was. 

I did end up having to get some bags of blood and have a transfusion. I had to stay in the hospital an extra day just to make sure that things were good. 

Meagan: You were okay, yeah. 

Kayana: Yeah, but we came home two days later. My induction was Thursday night, baby boy was born Friday morning, and we brought him home Sunday afternoon. And yeah. That’s my story. My recovery from my VBAC was absolutely incredible. Obviously, I was sore down there for a while which is to be expected and I did have some stitches from the episiotomy that had to heal, but overall, I felt like the recovery went really smoothly and I felt really great. I was just on cloud 9 through it all and didn’t really think much of the soreness and the pain that was going on because at least it wasn’t a C-section I was recovering from again. 

Meagan: Right. 

Kayana: So yeah. Anyway, that’s it. 

Meagan: Oh, that’s beautiful. I’m so happy for you. I get tingles in my nose when I get emotional. Have you ever felt that? 

Kayana: Yes. 

Meagan: I get a little tingle in my nose and I was like, “Don’t do it. Don’t do it.” You can just tell. You should be so proud of yourself and so happy for yourself. I’m sorry that you did have a postpartum hemorrhage and it does happen sometimes after long deliveries or long births. You were contracting even early on, so your uterus could have just been like you said, tired. So I’m just so happy for you. 

Kayana: Yeah. 

Meagan: I want to talk about two things before I let you go. I know you’re on your road trip and your family probably needs you back, but one of the things that we have a lot of people be told is that they cannot have a VBAC or that they do not qualify because their C-section baby was preterm. 

Kayana: Really? 

Meagan: Yes, yes. We actually have some of our stories on the podcast who have been told, “No, because you had a preterm C-section.” 

Kayana: Why would that even correlate? I don’t know know why that would mean anything. 

Meagan: Well, the uterus wasn’t as stretched out as it would have been full-term. I mean, there are reasons. It’s so hard. When you hear that, you’re like, “I don’t want to do something that’s bad.” But I do have a study to share here and it says that out of 131 women that had previous pregnancies, 93 of them went on to have a TOLAC or a trial of labor, and 80 of them actually did achieve a VBAC. 

That’s still a pretty great percentage. 

Kayana: That’s amazing. 

Meagan: 86% of people who went for the trial of labor to have a VBAC ended up with a VBAC, but there are so many times where people are told that they cannot or it is absolutely unreasonable to even consider it when it is technically possible. So I would say to definitely follow up with your provider of course. Know your options. Learn more. Everyone has a unique situation, but your provider didn’t even question it. It was like, “No, we’re good. Why would we not?”

We do have a blog. It’s a shorter blog, but VBAC After Preterm C-section, so if you’re in that category, go check that out. Last but not least, I know you mentioned your doula, unfortunately, didn’t show up which breaks my heart. Doulas are incredible and we love doulas. Obviously, we have a whole bunch of VBAC doulas but here in our own directory on thevbaclink.com/findadoula. They are amazing and we advocate for them. 

However, I wanted to just point out that as seen here, it is still possible to VBAC without a doula. Yes, we encourage them. We think they are amazing and they bring a lot of powerful education, but this is still possible. So what happened? I’m so sorry that did happen. 

Kayana: Oh, I hate to end it on a negative note after all of that high and beautiful VBAC story. 

Meagan: We don’t even have to. We don’t even have to. 

Kayana: I guess the gist of it– pretty early on in my pregnancy, I did decide to hire a doula. I really felt that it would be a beneficial thing. Like I had mentioned multiple times while I’ve been talking, I had listened to your podcast so much and heard so many wonderful positive, beautiful stories about doulas and how amazing they are, and then of course you and Julie. I felt like, “Oh, doulas are so amazing. I want one so badly.” I felt like I did some really good research and found one in my area. I did interview her before hiring her. We met up and went to lunch. It really seemed like we vibed. It felt like she was the right match and a good choice for me. 

I ended up hiring her and the closer we got to my delivery, we stayed in contact and had our plans. She checked in with me occasionally and checked how things were going. The day that we ended up having the induction, she was involved a little bit in that decision. I had called her. She was one of the phone calls I had made when I was trying to decide, and praying, and had talked to my husband about it. 

She knew that it was going to be a very likely possibility that I was going to be induced that day. She had planned on leaving on a vacation two or three days later after. That was her plan. She had been transparent with me about that and told me that. That was fine, but then after I told her my decision that I had decided that I needed to go in and get induced that day, she went ahead and let me know that she had decided to leave three days early for her vacation, that she was leaving that day, and that she would not be there at my birth. 

Meagan: Oh no. Did she not have a backup or anything? 

Kayana: She said, “I have a backup. I’m going to send my backup,” which, okay. That makes sense but also was kind of thrown on me. I had never met this backup because I wasn’t really expecting her to just up and leave on the day of my induction. I hadn’t ever met this doula. I was not as comfortable with her and just didn’t know her. I didn’t know what to expect. I did end up calling her, the backup doula, while I was on my way to the hospital. She said, “Okay. You go get checked in. Get everything going. I’m going to take just a small little nap and then I will come when I wake up.” 

I said, “Okay, sounds good.” I let her know what hospital I was in and I figured she would take maybe a one or two-hour nap. I don’t know. She said she was going to take a little nap and come to the hospital, and she never came. 

Meagan: Aww. 

Kayana: I labored all through the night and kept expecting her to show up and be there, and she just never came. It ended up that I still had to pay my original doula in full for her services that I did not receive. I don’t know. I just felt very betrayed, very sad, and upset about that whole situation. I don’t know what happened and I don’t know. Just not a great experience and I’m sad because I feel like I hear so many positive, beautiful experiences about having such wonderful doulas and it just wasn’t mine, but that’s okay. 

Like I said, I’m still grateful that I was still able to have my VBAC despite that happening and that I had a very supportive nurse who was very knowledgeable in probably a lot of the same things that a doula would be. She stepped in and acted as that for me. Things were good still. It still worked out, so I’m just grateful for that. 

Meagan: Good. I’m so glad. I’m sorry that happened for sure. 

Kayana: But anyway. Yeah, kind of crazy. 

Meagan: Well, if you are listening and you are looking for a VBAC doula like I said before, we do have VBAC doulas. They are amazing. I love them so much. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. I’m so sorry that you had that experience, but I’m so happy and proud of you for having the beautiful birth that you desired despite all of the crazy things along the way, all the shots, and the cerclage, and the contractions early on, everything. You powerhoused through it and I just wanted to say congrats. 

Kayana: Aww, thank you so much, Meagan. You are so sweet. This has been fun. I’ve been so excited. You have no idea how honored I feel that you asked me to share my story. I’m so happy and I hope that at least one small aspect of it may help some other moms on their journey. That’s all I can ask for. I just hope that it lifts someone up and helps someone else along the way. 

Meagan: It absolutely will. All of these stories are just amazing. I really appreciate all of you who submit your stories to share content. We actually are sharing content now both on our podcast and on social media because people want more stories, more and more stories. Hopefully, we’ll be able to bring some more podcasts in a week but now we’re one a week. 

So if you’re out there listening and you really want to share your story, please email us your story or email us what to do and we will get that in, or you can just go online and submit your story both via social media and podcast. We will get those shared because really, there are so many people out there just like you were, I’m sure, wanting to hear these incredible stories. Now here you are, one of them, sharing with all of the listeners all over the world and I know you’re going to inspire. 

Kayana: Thank you so much. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong.”

Meet Katie, the newest member of The VBAC Link team! You will be in awe after hearing about her 39-hour HBAC journey (not including a week of prodromal labor!). Find out how Katie was able to bounce back after being told she was complete, pushed for hours, then learned she was actually only at 7 centimeters. You will also hear what chiropractic care did for her after 30+ hours of active labor. 

Katie followed her intuition to pursue her HBAC and worked hard during pregnancy to make sure that she was mentally strong during labor. Little did she know about the sheer exhaustion she would have to endure, but that preparation made all the difference.

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Blog: Home Birth After C-Section

The VBAC Link Blog: Chiropractic Care

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, Women of Strength. We are so excited to be back with you today. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have a special story for you. Obviously, all of our stories are amazing and special, but if you haven’t seen on our social media yet, we have a new team member on The VBAC Link team and she is Katie. Her name is Katie and she is going to be sharing her HBAC story with you today. 

If you didn’t know, she started in August and has been killing it. So grateful for her. She has been helping me with emails, social media, and all the things so you may run into her if you are writing on Instagram or anything like that. You may run into her messaging. Just tell her hello and give her a squeeze because you guys, she is amazing. 

Head over to her post on the Instagram page. Learn more about her and say hello that way as well. So yeah, we are going to dive into this story. 

Review of the Week

But of course, we have a review. You guys, we are running down on reviews, so we need your reviews. If you would not mind, send us your reviews. You can give them to us on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google or Spotify. I think just google.com. On Facebook, you can message us and you can Instagram us. We love your reviews and we would love to read them. 

We have so many amazing stories coming up to finish out 2022 which is crazy to even think about that. It’s August right now at the time that I’m recording and we have almost everybody booked up for 2022. We have amazing stories, I will promise you that. But send us a review and maybe your review will just be read next on the podcast. 

This review says, “Must have for all pregnant women.” I love that because definitely, this is something we want to portray out there. Yes, VBAC is specific to vaginal birth after Cesarean, however, this podcast really applies to so many people out there who are just wanting to have a baby. Ways to avoid a Cesarean, ways to find good care, good providers, all of the things. So I would 100% agree with that. Must have for all pregnant women. 

It says, “Prepping for my VBAC in August” which is right now. “I found this podcast and it has been so inspiring. Hearing facts from experienced doulas and successful VBAC mamas has given me the confidence I didn’t know was possible. I now feel comfortable talking to my OB as well as my family and friends about why I want to VBAC and feel informed of all the risks. I also love hearing the CBAC stories so I will be ready to find healing however my next birth plays out. Thank you for all you do.” 

This is from Emily and that just gave me the chills because exactly. We want to prep for all things, all scenarios, all situations. So definitely listen to the CBAC stories. You guys, they are still so beautiful. A vaginal birth doesn’t always have to be for everyone too. Some people just choose a scheduled CBAC and that is okay too. So we love, Emily, that you are listening to all of the stories and that you are loving it. 

So it’s August, and if you haven’t had your baby yet, we are sending you the love and if you have and you are listening, send us a message. We’d love to know how it went. 

Katie’s story

Meagan: All right, Katie. How are you doing? Are you excited? I’m excited. 

Katie: I’m so excited. So happy to be here, Meagan. Thanks for having me on the show. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, absolutely. We couldn’t not have you on the show. Thanks for being with us and with The VBAC Link. I’m not kidding. You are a saving grace. Every day, I feel so confident that everything is just going to be okay because you are in my life. 

Katie: Oh my gosh, you are so sweet. Thank you. But seriously, I love Meagan. I love The VBAC Link, so it’s such an honor for me to work with you and work with The VBAC Link. It’s so special. 

Meagan: Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I would love to turn the time over to you to share your journeys. 

Katie: Yes, I would love to. I just want to say that this is a special story for me especially because Meagan was such a big part of my journey. And all of you listeners, I just have to say that Meagan is as amazing as she seems. She is so wonderful. 

When we were living in Utah, I met with several different doulas and I loved them all. I knew them personally because I’m a doula as well and for some reason, I just felt like Meagan was my girl. She just helped me so much in my journey, so I am so grateful for you and it’s fun that you were there with me. So you can remember everything I don’t. 

Meagan: I will never forget it. I will never forget your birth. It was absolutely incredible and I’m so excited to hear you tell the full story in your words because obviously, I experienced it from my point of view, but I’m so excited to hear it from you. 

Katie: Oh thanks. I’m excited too. So I’ll just start off with my C-section. My first son, whose name is Ellison, was born in 2019. He was born via C-section. I ended up having low amniotic fluid. I went in. I think I was 38 + 5 days or something for my appointment. He had low amniotic fluid. I was with a midwife group in Utah, a midwife hospital group, and she was just saying, “Oh, that’s super low.” I was measuring low and she had me go in for an ultrasound. They saw. They checked the pockets of amniotic fluid and I can’t remember what mine was but it was actually really low. It was probably 2 or 3 or something and so she was like, “Oh man. You have to have your baby right now.” 

I was a doula and so I did know things like this could come up. I felt like I knew how to counteract things like this because I really was hoping not to get induced and have to go that whole route, but it was really hard being the mom in this situation. I didn’t have a doula. I hadn’t hired a doula. So being the mom, I was feeling really scared and like, “Oh my gosh. This is my first baby. What should I do?” 

I was trying to research it and it just kind of felt like we needed to go in for the induction. So anyway, we had an induction. My baby wasn’t tolerating the induction and I think it was probably 18 hours into labor or something. Actually, pretty much right when we started the induction, it seemed like things were going downhill. He just wasn’t ready. His heart rate kept decreasing. We were having some scary signs. 

We did end up having a C-section and that was really devastating for me. Especially looking back, I feel like the induction was not necessary at all. I feel like the C-section maybe was necessary, but it was caused because of the induction. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Katie: Learning more about it and talking to the midwife that I had for my second baby, she was like, “Yeah, it seems like there are some things that you could have tried first or some things you could have done.” It’s hard looking back and knowing that there were some things that were maybe still in my power that I could have changed for my experience, but it’s okay. I’ve processed it and it was unfortunate, but it ended up being okay. I’ve healed from that. 

But then it was really stressful and just anxiety-inducing for me knowing that I would have to have a VBAC. I just didn’t even imagine that that would be in the cards for me. I got all of the VBAC resources and I joined The VBAC Link. I knew Meagan and Julie just in passing, networking as doulas and stuff. Yeah, so I was planning for a VBAC and I did all of the things to prep for it. 

I would say that I mostly prepped mentally for my VBAC. I know how hard it can be to give birth generally, but especially with a VBAC, it just plays with your mind so much more. I was originally planning on doing a birthing center and I think it was maybe my first trimester, maybe into my second, when I decided to do a home birth. My husband and I hired Meagan. We felt really good about Meagan. We felt really great about our midwife that we decided to go with, so we were feeling really, really excited for my HBAC. 

I had prodromal labor for about, I think it was six days before I went into actual labor. That was just a nightmare. Anyone who has experienced prodromal labor knows how horrible it is. I just kept thinking, “This is the night. This is the night,” but it wasn’t. It was just going on all night long. I was exhausted. I couldn’t sleep. One of the days, my midwife suggested that I pump a little bit on and off during the day to see if that would kickstart my body into labor. That didn’t work. It just made it worse. 

So anyway, I was already exhausted, but I was also hoping. I’ve heard so many women say that when they have prodromal labor, their labor goes quickly. So in my mind, I was like, “You know what? This is going to be okay. I’m laboring a lot right now and maybe I won’t have to do it later.” In my mind, I had an idea that my labor would be kind of fast. I felt prepped and I was just giving myself that affirmation that it was just going to be quick and that it was going to be a strong, powerful, quick labor. 

That was not the case at all. I went into labor. I started having consistent contractions on my due date which was kind of fun. It was probably around 10:00 or 11:00 p.m. that night. They started out milder, but I definitely noticed them. My husband and I went to dinner. We dropped our son off at my parents’ house. We were just going to go on a due-date date. We went out to dinner and I remember I was just so exhausted. I was having mild contractions, I really didn’t think anything of it at this point because it had just been so regular. It had been happening so much. 

We got home and I got into bed and I remember thinking, “Okay. This feels different. I think this might be it,” because I hadn’t started my prodromal. It usually started around 2:00 a.m., but this was around 11:00 p.m., so I was like, “Oh, maybe this is it.”

I did start having stronger contractions. I think it was 11:00 p.m. that night. I labored through the night. I couldn’t sleep because they were so strong. I was laboring on my birth ball. I got in the tub. I did different positions and stuff, but I couldn’t be in bed because they were painful enough for me not to be in bed. 

The next morning, my husband woke up and I was like, “Hey, I think this is it. I’ve been up all night and they’ve been–” They were mild to strong. I think that night, they started getting around 4-5 minutes apart and they were staying like that. So then I woke up and I was doing all of the things. I called my midwife and I was like, “Hey, this is what’s happening.”  

I think I had told Meagan the night before, “Hey, I’m having contractions like this, so get some sleep if you can.” So I called my midwife and she was like, “Just let me know how it goes. I’ll come by this afternoon,” kind of thing. It seemed like it was still early labor-ish. They did feel strong, but it seemed like they were going from 4-5 minutes apart to 6-7 minutes apart, so we were just trying to keep it going. 

My midwife ended up coming over. I think it was around– my midwife came over around 4:00 p.m. to check me because I was telling her, “They are getting a lot stronger, more consistent. I think I’m ready to get checked and see where I’m at.” So she came over and I was dilated to 3 centimeters, 0 station. I remember being so excited because, with my first baby, I hadn’t been dilated at all. I mean, he was a little bit early and I was being induced, so I was dilated to a 0. I didn’t have many expectations or hopes, but 3 felt very exciting to me. I was like, “That’s okay. We can work with a 3. We can keep going with a 3.”

So I felt very excited. I kept switching between rest positions and upright positions. We would go on a walk and bounce on the birth ball, and then I would try to do some side-lying or laying in the bath or something like that and switched back and forth. I was pretty tired at that point. Then my contractions started getting stronger and closer together. I called Meagan and she came over. I think that was around 10:00 p.m. or 11:00 p.m. They felt really strong at that point. 

As a doula, I was like, “You know what? I’ve been laboring for so long. I know the process of what labor normally looks like.” So in my mind, I was like, “I probably don’t have too much longer. I’ve probably been in active labor for a couple of hours or something.” So I set in my mind, “I can do this for a little bit longer. I’m okay.” But I was really tired and they had been getting really strong. 

Meagan was there and I remember she did a bunch of rebozo stuff on me. My contractions were weirdly really strong, and then I would randomly have a couple of smaller contractions. We were wondering if baby was in a wonky position or something. That night, it was 2:00 or 3:00 a.m. probably and I was having so much pelvic pressure. I was shaking. I was throwing up. I remember just being in bed and it was so intense. I had Meagan and my husband doing counterpressure.

The funny this is that my husband had surgery on his pec. 

Meagan: Oh gosh, I know. 

Katie: A week and a half before my due date or something, he tore his pec at the gym and then had surgery. I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me. Why did this happen right before our HBAC that we planned?” That was stressful to me and I felt so bad for Meagan because I knew she would have to pick up a lot of the slack because he was in a full sling and a cast. 

Meagan: He was. 

Katie: He was hardly even moving. He wasn’t supposed to lift anything, so that was a rough situation for us. Meagan was doing so much with the counterpressure and the physical labor. So we were all tired. Anyway, they were doing counterpressure and I was side-lying. I was throwing up. In my mind, I was like, “Yes. This is awesome. I’m throwing up.” I think I had around that point, I had someone call my mom and my sister. 

I had three sisters who were coming over and were hanging out in the front room. My mom was there. I was wanting them to be a part of it as much as they were wanting to be. We were all waiting. I don’t know about you, Meagan. I don’t know if I’ve actually ever talked to you about it, but I think around that time, I was convinced that I was in transition because I was showing so many of the signs. 

Meagan: You were. 

Katie: So in my mind, I was like, “This is awesome. I’ve been laboring for long enough. I’m shaking. I’m throwing up,” and it was getting me kind of excited thinking about it. I was thinking that I was getting really close. So yeah, then I was just like, “Okay, let’s wait it out and let things keep progressing.” 

An hour later, things still hadn’t been progressing. It seemed like it was still the same. I was completely exhausted at this point. I had been in labor for a really long time. A full day, a full night. It had been 24 hours at that point. We were just trying to decide, “Should I rest right now? How far along am I? Should I just rest and conserve my energy because I still have a while to go or should I get up and move and try to keep this thing going?”

I decided to have my midwife check me and I told her I did not want to know. It felt so important to me that I did not know what progress I made or what my dilation was just because it is such a mind game. Especially for me, I knew it would mess with me so much to know the dilation and to do the math that doesn’t really add up between dilating, so I really didn’t want to know. 

She checked me and I remember her being pretty stoic. She didn’t really say anything, kind of walked out. But then it was the worst feeling ever because she went into the other room and was talking to my mom and my sisters. My mom and my sisters were planning on being in the long haul until I had the baby, but I think everyone was assuming it would be sooner rather than later. 

But then my mom and my sisters were like, “Okay, Katie. We are going to head home and go to sleep. We will be back in a little bit.” I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I didn’t know what I was at, but I knew that it was bad enough that people were leaving the house. 

I remember just being so devastated. 

Meagan: They went to go get lunch, right?

Katie: No, it was 2:00 a.m.

Meagan: Oh, she went out to sleep. She went out to sleep. 

Katie: Yes. So Melissa, my midwife, went to her van to sleep. My mom and my sisters went back home. They live close.

Meagan: Yep, yep. 

Katie: Meagan and my husband were with me and I was just like, “Are you kidding me? Everyone knows that I’m not going to have my baby soon?” So I didn’t know it at that point, but I later found out that I was still a 3. Still 0 station. I was a little bit more effaced. I barely made any progress and it had been almost 12 hours since she checked me the first time the day before. 

I’m so glad that I did not find out because I don’t even know what that would have done to me and to my mental game. I don’t know if I could have come back from something like that. I was so upset by it already and I remember I was just crying and just like, “Oh my gosh. I can tell that it’s bad.”

Meagan came up and hugged me and was being so nice. She was like, “Katie, it’s okay to cry. It’s okay. You are so strong. You can get through this.” It was exactly what I needed to hear, so I just had the little pity party for a second and it was just probably the lowest moment for me in my labor. 

I had a pity party for a little bit and I was like, “Okay, well I guess I’m just going to try to sleep as much as I can and keep resting because I probably have a long way to go.” I labored in bed and I was in the shower and on the birth ball. My midwife came back in and she was being so nice. She was massaging me and Meagan was doing counterpressure because my poor husband couldn’t do anything. They were working really hard and my husband was standing next to me and sleeping next to me. He was there with me the entire time which was so special.

That entire night was rough. I can’t even remember it honestly. It was so exhausting. I was so tired, my contractions were so strong, and I still had a lot of pelvic pressure. I just couldn’t believe that I was not very far in my mind, so that was really upsetting. 

I think it was the next morning, I think, around 9:00 a.m. I was going to have my midwife check me again because again, we were just like, “What’s our plan? Do we need to keep sleeping? Should we get up and move around?” It was morning. I remember I had been laboring in the bath for a while and the sun was coming up and I was just out of it. I was so tired and everyone was like, “Okay Katie. It’s morning. It’s best to get up and live your life during the day. We’re not going to be sleeping anymore. We need to have a baby soon,” kind of thing. 

Not that they were pressuring me but they were just like, “Let’s keep this going. We can’t just keep laying in the bath this whole time.” She checked me at 9:00 a.m. She checked me not during a contraction, I believe, so she was like, “Oh my gosh. I can stretch you to a 10. You are +1 station.” We were just over the moon so excited. My husband and I went into our bedroom and we just cried and cried. 

My midwife was like, “Hey Katie, I think it’s time to start pushing. Let’s give you a minute to gather your strength. We’re going to start pushing.” We were so excited. I started pushing on the birthing stool. That was going on for maybe an hour, an hour and a half, or something like that. We started pumping just because weirdly, my contractions just didn’t get– they were strong, but it was just on and off. They were 3-4 minutes apart, and then 5-6 minutes apart. They never really made a clear pattern which was kind of weird. 

I was pumping and trying to stimulate my nipples so my contractions would get stronger and I’d be able to push the baby out quickly. We were doing that for a while. I wasn’t making progress. We could tell that baby wasn’t really coming or that nothing was really changing. We were kind of like, “Hmm, what’s happening?” My midwife checked me during a contraction and she was like, “Shoot, Katie. You don’t want to hear this right now.” She was like, “I think you’re going to kick me actually, but I think you’re only at a 7.” 

I don’t really even know. I’m not sure what happened. I think it had something to do with how she checked me not during a contraction so things were a little more loose and open, and then she checked me the second time during the contraction, so it was tighter and baby wasn’t ready to come and I wasn’t open. Is that right, Meagan?

Meagan: Yeah, and I’m wondering too exhaustion-wise. Your body was needing rest. 

Katie: Yes. Totally. I had been in labor for probably 32 hours at that point.

Meagan: Forever. 

Katie: Or something.

Meagan: Yeah and not even just that, but prodromal before too. I’m trying to remember if it was more that your body just needed rest. And also, the position of the pelvis. 

Katie: Yes. 

Meagan: But yeah. It was such a bummer. It was a bummer. 

Katie: Yeah, it was just the worst news ever. It was so hard to go from 10 and pushing, I did it, I can do this for a couple more hours, and then she was like, “You’re at a 7.” I was like, “No.”

Meagan: Yeah, and we weren’t sure if it was any swelling maybe. Maybe you were pushing prematurely. It felt like 10, then with the swelling. I don’t know. Yeah.

Katie: It was a strange, unfortunate situation. 

Meagan: I know. I wanted to cry for you because I was watching you kill it and then to hear that, that’s just hard. That’s just hard. 

Katie: Yes. It was pretty devastating. For some reason, I felt strong mentally at that point. I was just like, “Okay, a 7. We can work with that. That’s great. I’ve seen people go from a 7 to a 10 in 20 minutes. I’ve seen them go from 7 to 10 in an hour. I’m getting closer than I was.” So we kind of had a pow-wow. We talked about it. My midwife was like, “How are you feeling? Are you doing okay? Are you coping? I don’t want to push you into anything.” She was super nice and gave me the autonomy to decide what I wanted to do. 

She was like, “We can break your water if you are wanting to move things along.” I decided, it just felt in my mind that I still had more to give. I was just like, “I think I’ll know when I’m maxed out and I’m not there yet. I think I can make it. I’m going to keep going until I just can’t keep going any longer.” I went on a walk. Meagan and my mom and my husband came on a walk with me. Meagan was making me do curb walks and these squat jump lunge things.

She was like, “I know you hate me.” I was like, “Yes. This is horrible.”

Meagan: You were like, “Yes. This is stupid. What are we doing?”

Katie: It was the worst. I was just in so much pain and laboring. So we were doing that. I was trying to get baby to move, and then Meagan had the best idea ever to go to the chiropractor and get adjusted. For some reason, I don’t know why we didn’t think of that before. I had been going to the chiropractor my entire pregnancy for that reason. Because I was having an HBAC, I wanted to opportunity to go to the chiropractor if I needed to. 

For some reason, I was just in labor land or something. I just didn’t think about it. 

Meagan: Well, and it was nighttime. 

Katie: Yeah, that’s true. 

Meagan: And at this point, it was early. Not early, early. It was 11:00 maybe. I’m trying to think of what time it was. A little bit before lunch, maybe right after lunch, so I was like, “Hey, is your chiropractor's office open?” Did Matt call?

Katie: I think it was Matt or my mom. 

Meagan: Someone called and was like, “Can you come?”

Katie: Yeah. Someone called because I was like, “Have him come to my house,” because I had talked to my chiropractor about it and he said that he did home visits and stuff, so I was like, “Have him come over. I need to be adjusted.” The receptionist on the phone was like, “Yes, he can totally come over. It’ll be an hour, an hour and a half or something.” I was like, “No. I am not waiting that long for the chiropractor to get here.”

Luckily, the chiropractor is really close, so my mom, Matt, and I jumped in the car and my mom drove us to the chiropractor's office. The car ride was horrible and I was just in the back seat moaning, vocalizing, and just having strong, strong contractions. We get to the chiropractor’s office and I’ll just always remember. It was the funniest thing. Even though I was out of it, I can still remember so clearly what was happening. 

I was a mess. I had been in labor, I think, for 36 hours at that point. I was a complete mess. I looked exhausted. My belly was sticking out. I was not wearing shoes or something. It was crazy. These two receptionists were teenagers or in their early twenties or something like that. You could just tell that they were shook. I was in there at the office and I was making my sounds every four minutes or whatever and they were just like, “What the heck?”

Meagan: What are you doing here? Yeah. 

Katie: They’ve probably never seen a woman in actual labor who was not at the hospital.  

Meagan: Right.

Katie: They were just like, “What is happening?” It was so funny and I was just past the point of being embarrassed. I just couldn’t care less at that point. The chiropractor adjusted me and I remember him being like, “Okay, how long have you been in labor? Okay, 36 hours.” He’s like, “Yeah, totally. Hopefully, after I adjust you, you’ll go home and have your baby in half an hour or an hour or something.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? I hate you so much. It’s not that easy. No. It’s not just going to happen in an hour.” I was so bugged that he said that. 

Meagan: Like, “Don’t tell me that.”

Katie: Yeah, exactly. It was well-intentioned of course, but I was just like, “I’m in labor. I’ve been in labor forever.” I feel like I can say that because that’s actually pretty much what happened. So I left the chiropractor’s office and seriously, the second I walked out, my next contraction after being adjusted, I felt the difference in my contractions. I was like, “Oh man. That did it. Baby is coming. I’m ready to go,” kind of thing. 

So we drove back home and I feel like everyone could tell, “Oh wow. This is different. These contractions are different than they have been.” I was excited, but I was just so focused. I labored on the toilet. I labored in an upright position in bed a little bit. I probably did that for an hour and a half or two hours or something like that. 

Then I started making grunting noises. Everyone was like, “Yep, sounds great. That’s exactly what you should be sounding like right now.” Those contractions were so intense. I remember one of my biggest affirmations was, “These waves or these contractions are not harmful to you.” I remember just feeling an out-of-body experience almost where I just got in my mind, “This is not harmful. This is helpful. This is natural,” so I could disconnect from my body almost and just have my body do its thing and have my mind be in la-la-land. “Everything’s fine. We’re doing it. Don’t worry about it.”

That was crazy. I experienced that for a couple of hours of just total disconnection from my body almost. So then I pushed on the birthing stool for a little bit. I probably pushed for 40-45 minutes or so.

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say close to an hour.

Katie: Yeah. 

Meagan: You pushed hard too, really hard.

Katie: I was just like, “I am done. Let’s get the baby out.” It was so weird. I had never pushed a baby out through my vagina because I had my C-section, so I kept being like, “Is this right? I’m not sure. Am I doing it the right way? I can’t tell.” I kept asking for a lot of affirmations and stuff. That was really helpful. I just remember that Meagan was right there. My midwife was right there. My mom and my husband had been physically holding me up the whole time. I was leaning against him on the birth stool and he was just right there the whole time. 

I just felt so loved and so supported in a way that I’ve never felt before. It was incredible and so amazing. I was getting close. We could tell that he was getting closer and I was about to deliver him, so then we moved to the bed to help tearing-wise so he didn’t shoot out in that upright position. We moved to the bed and I remember that the ring of fire was so real to me. I was like, “Oh wow. Yeah. That’s it. I know what everyone’s talking about.” I remember I just kept asking, “Guys, can I do this? Can I do this?” It just felt so intense and it was just a crazy moment in my life. 

Everyone was like, “You can do this Katie.” People were giving me water. My husband was holding me and people were brushing my forehead and stuff. It was just so sweet and so tender. I kept pushing and then my baby was born that day. It was the best feeling in the whole world. Every time I look back, I just think about that moment and think, “I am so strong.” I can’t believe that I went through all of those challenges and the ups and downs. I just felt like the strongest woman in the world that I was able to accomplish that. 

I kept saying, “I got my VBAC! I got my VBAC! I’m so excited!” I was a mess, just crying. I was just exhausted, completely exhausted. I remember even feeling like I couldn’t even really hold my baby because I couldn’t even move my body or do anything. I was needing support to hold the baby. My husband was holding him and stuff. It was just the best moment ever. 

I had been in labor from the beginning of the contractions to the end for 39 hours which is just crazy. I just can’t even believe that that is a thing. How is that even possible? How did I go through that? I just think it’s so cool because I don’t know if people remember your story, Meagan, but you were labor for– was it 42 hours?

Meagan: Yeah, 42. Mhmm. 

Katie: I just thought it was so amazing that Meagan was there with me the whole time and knew exactly what I was going through because she went through it too with her VBAC. She knew exactly what to say and it was just wonderful that I had the support and the team because I wouldn’t have been able to labor for that long in the hospital. There’s no way. I just really needed that time and the space and the patience. Everyone gave that to me. It was the most beautiful experience for me and my husband. We think about it all of the time. 

Meagan: Yeah, oh my gosh. It’s funny because that’s where I was too where I’m like, “I feel this for her so much. I understand this in so many ways.” We both had differentparts of our stories and everything. When you pulled that baby out when that baby came out, I mean, I wish that I could create this image for our listeners because you were in bed and everyone was surrounding you. Your family had returned. 

Katie: My sisters were there, yep. My mom.

Meagan: Everyone had returned and the energy and the power in this room, oh. It was so incredible. It just gave me the chills. It was a whole level up of strong. 

Katie: I know. It was so powerful. My midwife and her assistant and I were just surrounded by women. And then my sweet husband who was by my side the entire time. So I started labor and I labored that night. It was just early labor and stuff and he slept, but he just didn’t even sleep the rest of the time. He was there with me the whole time supporting me emotionally. He still did a lot physically as much as he could, but he was there and so strong. 

It was just the most amazing experience. I have never felt so strong. I always look back and it makes me feel so confident knowing that I was able to do something like that. My body did that with me. 

Meagan: Absolutely. There were a lot of parts along the way where you could have just said, “I can’t do this.” The doubt could have taken over. And even if you had a moment, which is fine, those crying moments are healthy. Get it out. Cry. Let’s vent. Let’s yell. Whatever you need to do, and then you honed back in and got to work. 

Oh, it paid off and it was just remarkable. Leaving that birth, you would never have known that we were up all night because I was so high on life and happy and energized. I literally left energized. 

Katie: Oh my gosh. That’s so sweet. That’s so nice. I just felt so grateful. I had been preparing so hard for my HBAC. The second I found out I was pregnant with my VBAC baby, I started preparing. I feel like somehow, I don’t know. I knew that I would need all of that mental preparation for what was coming. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Katie: It just paid off. I wouldn’t have been able to do it if I hadn’t been so strong mentally. 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. And sometimes we prepare as much as we can before mentally and physically, and then at the moment, we still have some work to do. That’s okay too, right? 

Katie: Absolutely. 

Meagan: We still have processing. We hear these stories and I was triggered. I mean, I was in my driveway stomping around, throwing my arms, throwing a fit and all of the neighbors were probably like, “What is happening with her?” because I was like, “If my water didn’t just break, I would be able to do this.” I was just such a mess. 

Yeah, you know, we just have these things that we need to work through. It really is. Mental and physical prep is so important. Deciding where to hold that space and give birth. You did it in your home which is amazing and Julie did hers in her home. I did a birth center. I wanted a home, but my midwife didn’t do home births, and then we know that amazing births happen at the hospital too. 

I think that finding your space, finding your support, prepping your mind, all of these things are going to benefit you. Even in the review, even if it doesn’t end up in the exact way that you want it to, through this preparation, you will be able to feel better about the situation, hopefully. That’s what we hope. 

Katie: Absolutely, yeah. 

Meagan: That’s one of the things that we talk about in our VBAC class, in our parents’ class, is that here are the tools and the information. We are letting you decide what is best for you whether that be the hospital, home, birth center, CBAC, induction, whatever it may be, right? Here are the stats. Here are the facts. Here’s the information and here are the tools, and then we support you and love you no matter how you birth. 

Yeah. I will cherish your birth forever. I’m so honored and grateful that I got to be in that beautiful space and witness such power. Really, I can’t explain the power that came from that room. People were standing on the bed. We were standing on the floor. We were all over. I remember when I looked at Melissa, I was like, “Try closed-knee.” She looked at me and was like, “What? You must be intoxicated.”

All of these things, we just come up with ideas and that’s one of the best things about having that team is that you have all of the brains instead of just one entire brain. 

Katie: Yeah, for sure. 

Meagan: And when you’re in the moment, you can’t think about those things personally like, “I should do this. I should go to chiropractic care.” Right? I didn’t think that we should do rebozo at my birth. We didn’t do rebozo. I’m like, “Duh. Why didn’t we do that?” I don’t know. 

Okay, so I want to share a little bit of a stat that we have on our website. We have a blog about home birth after Cesarean and how to decide if HBAC is right for you or if the hospital is right for you. But it says, “Home births are becoming more common, especially home birth after Cesarean or HBAC. Laboring at home is common, but even more and more parents plan to stay home for the delivery itself. In 2017, almost 1.4% of births in the U.S. happened at home or a birth center, up to 50% since 2004.” Isn’t that crazy?

Katie: So crazy. 

Meagan: Up 50%. So we have the study here and we talk about how to plan for a home birth if you are wanting a home birth, the risks of home birth, the benefits of home birth, and then same thing, how to choose if the hospital is right for you, how to plan, all of the things. And so definitely check out that blog. We will have it in the show notes, and then we also love chiropractic care. We have seen powerful things with chiropractic care, and so we will also link our Benefits of Chiropractic Care in the show notes as well. 

I encourage if you can or if you are comfortable with it to check out a chiropractor near you who specializes, if you can, in Webster-trained or in pregnancy. Not every chiropractor is going to suit a pregnant person well because there are different types of chiropractors out there. Try to find one that knows how to correctly adjust a pregnant person and is able to really work with the pelvic dynamics while pregnant as well. 

Anything else that you would like to share, Ms. Katie?

Katie: I just want to share that I, like so many women, am so grateful for The VBAC Link and for you Meagan, and when Julie was doing it, just so much for sharing these stories. I listened to the podcast so frequently when I was pregnant with my second and getting prepped for my VBAC. I’m so grateful to you guys for creating the community around VBAC, helping us find resources, and giving me the encouragement and confidence to do a VBAC for my second. 

Meagan: Aww. That makes me so happy. That’s really our goal here– giving you the education, the confidence, and feeling better while you are going through your journey. Thank you again so much. I seriously am not kidding. I am so grateful to you. I am so happy that you are back in my life even though you are not here in Utah anymore. Seriously, I just know that you are going to do amazing things here at The VBAC Link and you are going to continue to touch people all over the world. 

Katie: Aww, thank you, Meagan. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Big babies can come out of vaginas! 

During her first pregnancy, Lucy was told that she had a macrosomic baby. She was pressured into an induction which ultimately led to a C-section. Her baby was just over 8 pounds. Lucy later learned she was closed up with internal staples and only glue on the outside. Her incision popped open not long after surgery, she developed an infection, and she spent her first few weeks of motherhood traveling to the hospital to get her incision packed. 

The second time around, Lucy refused to take no for an answer. Though she stayed with the same hospital practice, Lucy equipped herself with an amazing VBAC doula and lots of VBAC Link education. She trusted the birth process and her team, safely delivering a 10-pound, 2-ounce baby!

Additional links

Aussie Doula

5 Tips to Deliver a Large Baby Vaginally Blog

Baby Weight Prediction and Third Trimester Ultrasound Blog

5 Steps to Get Your Partner on Board with VBAC Blog

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello, everybody. Guess what? We are doing an impromptu episode today. This is our friend, Lucy. You’re listening to The VBAC Link and we can’t wait to hear her story. We are going to talk about big babies. We hear it all the time. Big babies. “I can’t have a vaginal birth because I have big babies” or “My pelvis is too small.” But she is here to share her story with you today and let you know that big babies can come out of vaginas. That is the big statement today. Big babies can come out of vaginas. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: I’m going to hurry and read a review, and then we will jump into her story. This is from bjmg104 on Apple Podcasts. It says, “This podcast is empowering and positive. As a home birth transfer turned Cesarean, this podcast has been so instrumental in helping me shed the shame and sense of failure I have been feeling since my son’s birth. Armed with the knowledge gained in this podcast, I now feel more confident than ever in my next pregnancy. VBAC is possible for me. Thank you for this podcast.” 

Well, thank you, bjmg104 for sharing your review. 

Lucy’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Lucy. We are jumping right in. I am going to turn the time over so you can have all of the time to share your story about big babies. Tell us about it. Tell us about your experience. 

Lucy: Oh my goodness. You know, I see all the time “big babies, big babies” and from 18 weeks pregnant, the second pregnancy now, I was told all the time. They would measure my belly and they would say, “You know, he’s measuring two weeks ahead. He’s measuring two weeks ahead.” Part of me was like, “Well hopefully, he’s big like one of his Uncle Nicks,” because I have an Uncle Nick, my brother-in-law,  and an Uncle Nick, my brother, and I was like, “Maybe he’ll just be a big dude.” It’s okay. 

My mom had 10-pound babies so I was like, “I think we’ll be okay.” But obviously, I was really, really hopeful for my VBAC and I left my previous practice after my first birth because my first birth was something that was just really, really traumatic to me. It didn’t go at all the way that I had planned. It really came down to me just even talking to myself and my husband and us looking at ourselves and saying, “Being educated is just such a big thing.”

I remember from the day that I found out I got pregnant, I would go on walks every day with my daughter and I would listen to The VBAC Link. I would say, “These women know what the deal is.” They are educated. They understand what’s going on. They’re empowering themselves. I was like, “You know? I’ve heard so much about doulas.” I didn’t really know if a doula would be for me. I talked to a couple of different companies and I found Aussie Doula here in Charlotte. 

I spoke to Helen and she said, “You have to meet Raquel. She’s my VBAC queen.” I was totally swept away after meeting Raquel. My husband and I joke because Raquel has that spiritual vibe to it where she really centered me, but then she also had a voice for me. From the beginning, Raquel helped me make that decision and stand up for myself from those appointments where maybe you don’t want a cervical check right in the beginning because anything can happen. 

That’s kind of what I’m going to share. I don’t know if I need to touch at all on my first experience with my firstborn. 

Meagan: Yeah, feel free. Feel free.

Lucy: So with my first, I was pregnant. I had a really healthy pregnancy, with not one issue whatsoever. I was the girl that people didn’t really want to talk to when they asked me how my pregnancy was. I was like, “It’s really rainbows and butterflies. That’s how it is. It’s great.” People were like, “Ugh. Not even morning sickness?” I was like, “Literally nothing.” 

So I was told that I had a macrosomia baby. I really trusted my doctor. I had been with that practice for five years. He was like, “Listen, if you don’t do an induction, you’re basically asking for a C-section.” I didn’t know who to ask. I wasn’t part of the different groups online, so I just trusted. 

At 39 weeks and 2 days, I went in on a Thursday and I got induced with Cervadil and Cytotec for two days. I was completely zero dilated. Nothing was happening. On Saturday, they hit me with Pitocin, then about 30 minutes later, my water exploded. I still wasn’t dilated.

Then, I got an epidural at 6 centimeters and I just plateaued. During that time, I got a fever and an amniotic fluid infection. Everything that could go wrong was going wrong. I remember from the first night on Thursday, a doctor walked in and said, “You know, we don’t have to do this.” He goes, “You could just have a C-section and you don’t have to go through this pain.”

At the time, I laughed it off, but in hindsight, I was like, “He was so not supportive and that should have been my red flag from that moment.”

Meagan: Yeah. 

Lucy: But I really trusted the process. He was someone at the practice I didn’t know and I had never met. Turned out that he was the guy who did my C-section on Sunday. So that Sunday when I had my C-section, I started to feel a lot of things and a lot of pressure down there. I don’t really do great medically when it comes to– everything grosses me out. Towards the end of my C-section, I was hollering. Josephine came out, my daughter, and she wasn’t really crying or doing anything. That’s another sign to me that she wasn’t ready, you know? She didn’t have her full time to be ready and do what she needed to do and my body needed to do for her to have the birth that also she deserved. 

I was closed up in a way that really wasn’t grand to me. I had internal staples and outside, I had only glue. I say this because I’ve empowered so many of my friends already to just know, “How are you closed up in the case that maybe you do have a C-section?” It’s something that many of us don’t talk about or think about because we are like, “Well, a C-section won’t happen to me.”

Well, after a three-day filled induction, you can only imagine how swollen I was. By the time we got home on Tuesday, I popped my incision open. My top layer. I ended up back in the ER. 

Meagan: Oh man. 

Lucy: It was awful. We got home Tuesday. Thursday, that happened. So in the hospital, they swabbed me for COVID. I’m positive for COVID, so now I’m like, “Well, the world’s ending, surely.” So then I have an infection in my uterus. I need antibiotics. They want to admit me for three days and I’m just like, “I can’t.” If you want to put a woman into postpartum depression who is surviving it and getting through it, take her away from her baby for three days and put her in the hospital. I was like, “I can’t physically do that. Not mentally.” I just had this sweet little girl that I want to be next to. I want to have my moments with her and my husband so I was like, “There’s just no way.”

Thankfully enough, I was given antibiotics, but I did have to drive all the way to uptown which is 30 minutes from where I live in Fort Mill, South Carolina, and have my incision packed every two days by the doctors because it needed to close up. It was just such a nightmare. 

For five good weeks, I looked at my husband and I was like, “Maybe we’re only child kind of people.” We come from big, Greek and Italian background families and I always thought I wanted four kids. I was like, “I just don’t think I could ever go through that again.”

The time passed and like all women, we forget our trauma. So then the time came when we were like, “Let’s add to the mix.” I’m more educated. I’ve been reading a lot on this. Things are possible. Just because I had a C-section doesn’t mean that I am now married to that. I had family that still lives in Greece and even my aunt was like, “Well, now that you had that, that’s all you can ever have.” I was like, “No, that’s not true. I’m going to show the world that that’s not true.”

So when I got pregnant, I looked for a practice that was supportive. I went on The VBAC Link and I just got on Facebook and I read about different doctors. I went to this one practice in Charlotte at around my 18-week appointment. I was told that at 40 weeks to the day that I would have a C-section. I asked, “Why?” He said, “That’s what we do with all women.” 

I said, “Well, I’m not all women. My name’s Lucy and I have a unique medical history. I’m me and my own pregnancy.” He said, “That’s just not the risk that this practice takes.” I said, “Well, I’ve heard that Pitocin is safe. Foley bulb if necessary. There are other mechanisms and other things that we can do.” He said, “That’s just not something that we are willing to do.” I said, “Well, going back to our first visit and our other conversations, you’re not VBAC supportive then. You’re barely VBAC tolerant.” He said to me, “Well, I’ll give you my suggestion, and then worst case scenario, you just don’t come to the hospital.” 

I said, “Well, I’m not here for that worst-case scenario. I’m here to fully trust in my doctors and my provider.” I said, “So that’s just not the option that I’m looking for.” He responded with, “Well, we’re going to part ways. Better sooner than later.” So that was my hint. I came home, looked at my husband, and said, “The one appointment you didn’t come to.” I was like, “Everything hit the fan.” I was like, “No way.”

So I reached out to my old doctor, Dr. Graham, who had left the OB part of the practice and stuff. She had gone on her own to a different practice and I said, “Who do you recommend?” She said to me, “There’s a great doctor at Midview OB/GYN. His name is Dr. Gibbons.” 

So my husband and I made an appointment. We went out there and we spoke with him. From the first second that I sat there, he said, “Macrosomia baby? Why is this on your chart? She was 8 pounds, 4 ounces.” He said, “This is irrelevant.”

Meagan: Ahh!

Lucy: He said, “There is no practical reason that you had a C-section.” I said to him, “Thank you. That’s exactly what I’m saying.” I said, “I’m just here for a fair chance.” He talked to me and he said, “If it does end up in a C-section, I don’t want you to think that you failed.” I said to him, “By no means if that’s how the ending happens and I have a healthy baby and a healthy mama, that’s not how I’m going to feel.” I said, “However, I do want the full experience, the full opportunity to be able to have a trial of labor and achieve my VBAC.” 

From there on, every time we met, he would talk about the size but he never told me that the size meant that I needed to get that baby out. So as things progressed in my pregnancy, I would hear a lot that he was large. Around 40 weeks, I had an ultrasound. I also had one at 36 and they said that he was big. And then I had one right at 40 weeks to the day which was two Thursdays ago. The ultrasound tech was the sweetest. I loved seeing her at this one location. She measured him and he measured in the 97th percentile. 

Then she did one whole measure again, everything, and she goes, “I’m getting the same exact number.” She’s like, “I just feel so confident that he’s 97%.” I said, “Okay, great. Thank you.” She said, “He looks healthy. The amniotic fluid is healthy.” I was like, “Great.” So then, Friday, I went in to the doctor– so I guess earlier in the week on Monday, I just decided that I would have a membrane sweep, but I was only 1 centimeter dilated. I was 50% effaced. 

I didn’t really know if doing that was for me. I hadn’t had one check my entire pregnancy and every time I said, “No,” it was a question when I went to the doctor. It was, “Would you like to be checked?” I said, “No, thank you.” And then that was the end of the conversation which was perfect to me. 

I will stop and just say one day I was having some pain. I want to say that I was early 30 weeks pregnant. I went to an urgent care OB here in Charlotte and it just so happened that my doula was in the area so she went with me. When I got there, I was having some pain. That’s why I went. The nurse practitioner opened the door and she said, “Go ahead and undress from the waist down. You’re in labor.” 

As she closed the door, my doula went, “Is that what you would like?” The lady opened the door and just looked at me. I said, “No, that’s not what I would like and frankly, you don’t even know the color of my hair. How would you even know that I’m in labor?” I said, “What I would love is for you to come in and have a conversation with me and if we feel the need to do something, we will be on the same page.” She goes, “Well, I am going to have to mark your chart that you declined it.” 

I said to her, “Do what you’ve got to do.” At this point, I said, “But I would appreciate it if you could come in and you could feel my belly. We could just talk through it.” She just had the worst attitude the whole time and then when the ultrasound tech came in, she did a scan and she was so sweet. She was showing me the baby and she was like, “Look, everything looks great here,” and blah blah blah. I was just so thankful that she brought me back down. I’m not one to leave a review, but I made sure. 

I was like, “I want the world to know that if you are going to come here, you’re going to have to have a voice,” and then I realized there was a theme at that urgent care that you really didn’t have a voice when you went in. I was so thankful that Raquel was with me, my doula, to help me have that first experience of standing up for what I wanted in my birth plan and in my pregnancy. 

That’s why I thought it was such a big deal when I would go to a Midview OB/GYN that it was just a question of, “Would you like this?” So around 39 weeks when I had my first sweep, 39 and a few days, I had that ultrasound and I saw Dr. Gibbons on Friday prior to going into labor. At that point, I was 1.5 centimeters and he did a sweep. I had actually lost a lot of my mucus plug during that sweep. 

He just said to me, “Well, the goal is to go into labor naturally. That’s what we’re going to keep saying.” That was really it. He didn’t tell me my baby was big or I needed to get him out. That night, I started having contractions all night every eight minutes for hours. The next day, they were gone. I was like, “Oh no, was that not real? What’s going to happen now?”

Of course, the later you get in your pregnancy, you’re like, “I really want to go into labor. Is this going to happen for me?” So on Sunday, I was 40 weeks and 3 days. Around 6:00, contractions started happening again every ten minutes. I hung out on my yoga ball. I walked around. We went for a walk in my neighborhood. Around 9:00 p.m., I was like, “Okay, it’s time to lay down and relax.” I lay in bed and they kept getting closer and closer and closer, but they were still more than five minutes apart, and then around 12:25 a.m., I felt a pop. 

I was like, “That’s got to be my water.” So I stood up and sure enough, it was my water. I called Raquel and she said, “I’m going to come by the house first” because the goal was not to get to the hospital too early as well. Although I had trust in the process and the doctors, I was still really nervous that someone would try to force an epidural on me or even just a catheter in case I needed a C-section so we were trying to really get to the hospital at the right time. 

I started to get ready though and Raquel was on her way to my house. My husband was packing the car. Something didn’t feel right. I felt a little bit of extra pain and I’m very high pain tolerant. I called Raquel and I said, “I just want to go to the hospital.” My contractions at that point were five minutes apart and she said, “Absolutely.” She had just pulled up to the house, so we left. We went to the hospital. 

We got there. The nurse came into triage and she checked me. She didn’t say anything. I said, “Well, good news? How dilated am I?” She looked at me in a sad little voice and she said, “Have you ever been checked?” I said, “Yeah, I was checked on Friday. I’m 1.5.” She said, “You’re still 1.5.” I was like, “Oh no.” 

She goes, “That was your water and your baby has meconium.” The monitors were reading a really high heart rate for him. All of a sudden, my world crashed down. I was like, “That’s it. This is it. I’m going to have a C-section.” Raquel looked at me. It makes me all sad and I just want to cry as we talk about it. Raquel looked at me and she said, “It’s a marathon. It takes time.” She goes, “You have to remember to release and allow your body to do what it needs to do and surrender.” She goes, “The beginning is going to be slow. It’s going to happen so fast once it gets going. You’re not going to expect it.” 

I believed. I believed at that moment that Raquel was telling me exactly what I needed to hear and know for my body. We hung out in triage for maybe an hour and by the time we got to a room, I was 3.5. I was like, “Okay, progress.” Thirty minutes later, I was 6 centimeters. I was like, “Okay.” We got to the hospital at 1:45 at night. By 4:45 a.m., I was 8.5. I was 8 centimeters dilated. 

Raquel had been constantly moving me. She would not let me stay in one position. I was just like, “Is this really happening? Everything is happening so fast. These contractions are so hardcore.” But she recommended nitrous for me because we were trying to stay away from the epidural at least in the beginning. At that point, I was begging for it. 

She said, “If you make it to 5, we will get an epidural, but just try the nitrous for me.” I tried the nitrous and while it didn’t remove the pain, it took the edge off. I don’t know if you’ve heard of other women using it, but I will say that it definitely was a great tool to have in your belt in the delivery room. 

Meagan: Yeah, I used it as well. It was great. 

Lucy: Yeah, I had no clue. If you had told me, I would have had no idea. So by that point, when I got to 8 centimeters, Raquel was like, “Listen.” She goes, “We’ve got this.” She goes, “I’m going to have you get up. You’re going to sit on the yoga ball. We’re just going to keep moving.” I was still asking for the epidural. She said, “Can you try asking for the epidural when you’re not in the middle of a contraction so I can believe you?”

I was like, “That’s not fair.” The nurse comes over and she hangs a bag of liquids. She says to me, “When this bag is finished, I’ll get you an epidural.” I said, “Y’all are so setting me up right now.” There’s no way there is going to be time to get an epidural. Everybody is looking at each other and not looking at me like, “She ain’t not getting an epidural.” So by the time I got up and sat on the yoga ball, I was like, “Oh my god, I have to push.”

They get me right back on the bed. They check me and I’m 10 centimeters dilated, but he’s not perfectly face down. He’s not all the way sunny-side up, but he’s not all the way down either. Raquel manhandled me. She totally flipped me on my side. It was Spinning Babies to the max in the middle of contractions that are happening every couple of seconds. I just relaxed into what she was doing. It was the flying cowgirl and he just flipped right back to where he needed to be, the perfect position. 

I pushed for an hour. So at 5:00 a.m., I started pushing. By 6:06, he was here. I just can’t say enough for a hospital that I went to and didn’t have a great experience with my first, I had the most phenomenal redemption birth that I could have dreamed of. The nurses, even the NICU team that was in there just in case. The doctor from the practice that I had never met, Dr. Rogers was at the end of my bed for the entire hour that I pushed stretching me, helping me to the point where I only have a midline of a vaginal tear. I didn’t tear any other way with a 10-pound, 2-ounce baby. 

It’s just so unreal to me that you’re told all the time, “Big babies. You can’t get them out.” I’ve been reading these posts online for days since I had my little one on the 18th of the month and I feel the need every single time a woman posts in distress to respond and be like, “You have this. You’ve got this.” 

Meagan: The 18th of this month?!

Lucy: I just had him!

Meagan: Like not even 10 days ago?

Lucy: Not at all. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Lucy: Yeah, he’s so fresh. That’s why I’m so in all my feels about it. But I did. I looked at Raquel and I don’t know if I’m allowed to say bad words here, but I looked at her and I said, “I got my f-in VBAC.” And we high-fived in the room.

I was like, “Yeah.” We high-fived. I was like, “This happened.” I was like, “I need the world to know.” 

Meagan: Yes! And here you are. You’re sharing it with the world. You’re sharing it. 

Lucy: Yeah, absolutely. 

Meagan: And it is. It is possible. We’ve seen big babies come out of vaginas. We have seen it. We really, really have. 

Lucy: Yes. I think that we just need the opportunity to allow our bodies to do what they need to do. I mean, he was born at what? 40 weeks and 4 days? 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Lucy: A healthy, happy boy. 

Meagan: Yes. Well, you know what? In the show notes, we are going to include a couple of blogs about getting big babies out. So five tips to avoid a C-section and delivering a large baby. We are going to post that in the show notes. So if you want to read more about big babies and how possible it actually is, check out the show notes. If you don’t believe this story alone because a 10-pound baby, that’s a good size baby. It’s possible. 

You’re not a big person. 

Lucy: I’m 5’5”. 

Meagan: Yes. You’re 5’5”. It’s not like you’re 6 feet, super, super tall because a lot of the time, taller people, when I say big, I mean tall torso and stuff like that, but 5’5” is still pretty small. 

Lucy: He was 23 inches long too. So he’s a long, tall boy. 

Meagan: Way long, yes. 

Lucy: Yeah. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. Well, congratulations. I cannot believe it was seriously less than 10 days ago, but we are so happy that you shared your story with us. I know that you are going to inspire so many out there. You know, also too, there’s a lot of times where providers will say, “Oh, you’ve got a big baby in there,” and then the baby’s not that big. Seriously, we’ve had clients that were told that their babies were 12 pounds and they had to have a C-section and then they had a C-section and their baby was 7 pounds. 

Lucy: That’s why I feel like I’m here on The VBAC Link because I was told that with my first. 

Meagan: Yep, exactly. 

Lucy: That’s my story. 

Meagan: And it was. And your baby was 8 pounds. It’s so hard. You’ve got to follow your intuition. Good for you for sticking with it and fighting through everybody even when there was some tension. You were fighting through, so congratulations and thank you so much. 

Lucy: Thank you. Thanks, Meagan. This VBAC Link just has empowered me through this whole process.

Meagan: Oh, that makes my heart so happy. 

Lucy: Mine too. My husband, too. He was so on board with everything. I can’t ask for a more supportive partner. 

Meagan: We are going to drop that one too, talking about supportive partners and how to get yours on board because that truly makes a big difference when you have that support, especially if there’s not a ton of support coming from the provider or they’re not as gung-ho if you can have that support from your partner, oh my gosh. It makes a world of difference. 

Lucy: Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thanks for all that you do and all of our voices that are heard. 

Meagan: Absolutely, thank you.  

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Meagan welcomes Julie back today to celebrate 200 episodes of The VBAC Link podcast! They celebrate this milestone with a special live Q&A podcast recording session joined by followers of The VBAC Link Facebook community. 

Topics include: how to talk to your provider, all about Spinning Babies, adhesions, managing sciatica pain, induction, nipple stimulation to induce labor, VBAMC, C-section consent forms, and much, much more.

We can’t wait to continue sharing new episodes with you as we stay committed to our mission of making birth after Cesarean better!

Additional links

Spinning Babies website

The VBAC Link Blog: Pumping to Induce Labor

Fear Release YouTube Video

Episode 18 Leslie’s HBAC + Special Scars

Julie’s Instagram

The VBAC Link Community on Facebook

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is our 200th episode and yes, you are listening to Julie. I’m back just for this episode and probably some more in the future at some point, but we are so excited, Meagan and I, because this is the 200th episode. We are now live in our Facebook group. Not now when you are listening to it, but right now in this moment in our timeline. 

It took us way too long to get in here live, but we are doing a Facebook Live podcast episode. We have never done that before and we probably will never do it again because this was kind of traumatic.

Meagan: Yeah, this was a little rough, but that’s okay. Now that we know, now that we know, we are good. We’re good. 

Julie: Now we know.

Meagan: It just took 34 minutes to figure it out. 

Review of the Week

Julie: Oh my gosh. Cool. So, let’s get started first. There is a Review of the Week. Meagan, are you ready? Do you have one?

Meagan: Yep, I do. This is from blpinto and it’s from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Wonderful resources for ALL moms, not just VBACs.” It says, “I didn’t have a C-section for my first birth, but I had a traumatic experience with a forceps delivery and an induction that was not at all what I was looking for. I started listening to the podcast before I even got pregnant a second time to prepare for a better experience. Julie and Meagan were a huge part of my process and journey. I ultimately had a beautiful home birth and a 10-pound, 6-ounce baby. I felt this podcast helped me overcome my fear that I couldn’t push my baby out without help because many VBAC moms had the same feeling.”

I love that. I don’t know many first-time or second-time moms who haven’t had previous C-sections that have listened and left a review. So that was awesome. We truly believe that this is also a podcast for everybody. Just like wonderful Brian says at the beginning of this podcast, it’s for all expectant parents who want to avoid a Cesarean and want to learn their options and learn what’s happening out there. So that is so exciting that we had someone who hadn’t even had a C-section before. 

If you know someone who is expecting and has fear or maybe a first-time mom who has some doubts and problems and traumatic experiences in birth, definitely share the podcast. These stories are amazing for all to listen to. I would 100% agree with her.

Julie: I love that. Do you remember years ago when we first started and we were trying to figure out how we could make something, maybe not separate, for first-time parents? We were like, “How do we get first-time parents to understand that these are things they need to know?” Because you didn’t. I didn’t. As a first-time mom, I didn’t even think about a C-section until the doctor said, “We need to do a C-section,” and we never really got very far with that because the focus of The VBAC Link is a vaginal birth after Cesarean. 

Yeah, so we love that. We, I say “we”. I will always say “we” talking about The VBAC Link. 

Meagan: Literally, just earlier today, I was recording a podcast and I was like, “we”. I mean, “I”, but Julie is just over here. 

Julie: My spirit and presence exist in the VBAC realm.

Meagan: Yes. But it’s so much fun. It’s so fun to be here and I’m excited. If you guys haven’t had a chance or if you are watching live right now, we would love your reviews. Love, love, love your reviews. You can send us an email. You can write right here and I will copy it over and put it in the reviews. We are excited to dive in today on episode 200!

Q&A

Julie: Yeah. All right, all eight people who are watching. I guess one of those is me and maybe you, so six. Six people. Drop your questions. Nothing is off-limits. We are going to talk about everything you want to know. Everything you want to hear. We are going to get down and dirty with everything VBAC, wives, and kids. If you want to know what Meagan’s kid is doing right now in the background, we will talk about it. 

Meagan: Yeah, drop your questions. I’m posting here letting people know that we actually are live now. 

Julie: Oh heavens. 

VBAC: Where do I start?

Meagan: Yes. It’s so funny. I keep looking on the wrong forum. Okay, who do we have in here? Who do we have? Kathryn, Jen, and AJ thank you so much for being here. Let us know your questions. I want to maybe start off just on VBAC options. We had someone write in yesterday and was like, “One, I didn’t know VBAC was an option. I didn’t even know what it was.” So that’s wonderful that they’re starting to find out that VBAC is an option, but let’s talk about how we can have a conversation about VBAC being an option with a provider. That’s just random, I know. 

But what would you think, Julie, if you’re starting to discover VBAC, learning what it is, feeling like you want to feel it out, maybe you want to learn more about it and do it, how would you suggest approaching your provider?

Julie: Oh man, that’s a great question. First of all, we’ve got some good questions coming in too so I’m excited to answer these. Provider, honestly, I would just ask where their thought process is. I would approach them and say, “Hey. this is what I’m considering. What are your thoughts about it?” And I will tell you what. No matter what their response is and no matter what ultimately your birth plan is, you’re going to get a really good feeling for how your provider feels about body autonomy, informed consent, and birth in general because if they answer and say, “Oh, well I don’t think you are a great candidate. I don’t do VBAC. I don’t support them,” or anything that’s very sounds set in stone, so, “I don’t do this. We won’t let you do that. We would have to look at this and make sure your percentage is high,” or whatever. 

Anything that is set in stone shows you that your provider is not as supportive of other options or your provider has a very set way of doing things and may not be a good choice for you. But if they answer and say, “Yeah. We can consider VBAC as an option. Let’s talk about some things about what your goals are. I do VBACs a lot. I love VBACs” or anything like that with a more open or a more fluid answer is going to let you know that your provider is going to not only be good with whatever outcomes that you choose but is also very open to having the parent or the mother be part of the birth process and be involved in the decisions regarding their care. 

That’s really what you want to have on your side no matter what type of birth you’re having or where you are giving birth. You want to have a provider that is going to be open to your input, be a little flexible, a lot flexible based on what your needs are and the type of birth you want, and is able to accommodate that. 

Meagan: Yeah, and just that’s willing to have that conversation because a lot of providers don’t honestly come out and say, “Hey, do you want to have a TOLAC?” which is a trial of labor after a Cesarean. That may be something that you have to take charge of and say, “Hey. I’m learning about this. What are your thoughts? How do you feel about it? Tell me about some experiences.” 

We always talk about open-ended questions but really, truly if you can ask an open-ended question, you’re going to be able to get more information than a “yes” or a “no” or an, “Oh yeah. Sure,” versus, “Yeah. I feel really comfortable with that. We do that all of the time. This is why.” So I love that. I know it was a random question, but a lot of people are asking, “How do I even approach this topic with my provider?”

Okay, are you ready? I’m going to read some questions. We’ll bounce back and forth. 

Julie: Yes, let’s do it.

What is Spinning Babies?

Meagan: So Ms. Kathryn says, “I just found your podcast last night.” Yay! And now you’re here on the first live one. It says, “Bingeing ever since. What is Spinning Babies? I’ve heard it talked about a lot on the podcast.” 

Spinning Babies is a wonderful resource. They have all sorts of circuits and tips and tricks on ways to navigate babies through the pelvis. Breech positions, so if you have a breech baby, they have positions and exercises to do that. We’ve got posterior. We talk and they also do baby mapping to help figure out where your baby is. 

Julie: Belly mapping. 

Meagan: What did I say? 

Julie: You said “baby mapping.”

Meagan: Baby mapping. I meant belly mapping. 

Julie: They’re the same thing.

Meagan: That’s what I meant. Baby mapping. I almost said it again. Belly mapping to help you figure out where your baby is. They can educate on if a baby is posterior, what types of things to do and what to do if a baby is asynclitic or comes over the pelvis, and what tips and tricks you can do. A lot of doulas are really educated in Spinning Babies. It is so awesome. So awesome when the client, don’t you think, is educated in this and they are familiar with it. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: So obviously, we talk about it a lot in the podcast, but we really encourage people to check out their website. They have updated their website and it’s really quite great now. It’s really friendly to navigate, so check it out. It can be a game changer. I have had positions in labor where things were just hanging out, stalling, not really going anywhere, and then we have done a Spinning Babies technique and boom, that baby rotates and labor is speeding along. 

Julie: Yeah, I love that. I think one thing that I really like about Spinning Babies too is that it puts less emphasis on babies being in this specific position and it creates more emphasis on creating room and space in the pelvis.

Meagan: Balance. 

Julie: And with the connective tissues and yes, balance and all of those things because sometimes, babies need to enter into the pelvis in a little bit what you would call “less than optimal.”

Meagan: “Less than ideal”, yeah. 

Julie: But as long as baby has enough space and room to wiggle and progress through the pelvis in the way it needs to, then you’re going to have a great, not a great, that’s a bad promise. You’re not going to have a great labor necessarily, but you’re going to be able to encounter less problems that are created by a poorly positioned baby or tissues that might be more difficult to move and things like that. So yes, balance, space, and flexibility. 

Do adhesions impact fertility?

Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, let’s see. AJ Hastings. “Do adhesions really impact fertility? Currently trying to conceive for seven months and was told by acupuncture that I need 12 months of weekly treatments. I definitely want another opinion.” 

So the short answer is yes it can. It can affect things. In fact, we have an episode and I will go find it here. I’m going to go find it. I’m going to drop it. It’s so weird because we are on Zoom, but we are on Facebook over here. I’m going to drop it in the Facebook group right here because it definitely impacted her. It impacted her and adhesions, depending on how dense and how thick and everything, it can impact fertility. 12 months of treatment? I don’t know. I mean, I’m not a specialist in how intense that needs to be. I have adhesions as well, but I don’t know how dense they are. 

I was fortunate enough to become pregnant, but it can impact it and it’s something to look into. I don’t think it’s bad to get a second opinion for a whole year of treatments, but I also wonder if scar massage, starting with scar massage by yourself, or going to a pelvic floor specialist and starting there might be beneficial. Julie, what would you think?

Julie: Yeah, right along with what you said, it can. That’s the thing. It doesn’t always, but it might. Adhesions, especially ones that are denser or thicker can tug and pull things in the wrong way. They can make it harder for eggs to implant and can cause a whole slew of problems for your overall health depending on the relation to different organs that they might be adhered to. All sorts of things, but it doesn’t always, right? 

One thing that I would ask my provider that’s recommending that is what other options are available, what other things might be impacting my fertility? Have you seen any other types of providers? Have you seen an OB/GYN or maybe a fertility specialist in that regard or gotten a second opinion from them? Sorry, I think she said. Yep. I’m trying to see that it was told by acupuncture. Yeah, so I would maybe consult another type of provider. But trying to conceive for seven months is kind of a long time, but it also could take up to a year without there being any problems at all for just any random average to get pregnant too. 

That is just what was going through my mind. Is that the only thing that you are treating and addressing or is it part of an overall care plan? Are you seeing anybody else? That type of thing. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And like she was saying, maybe a different provider, maybe a pelvic floor specialist to even just dig into what those adhesions look like or a care provider, but yeah. It can. I’m going to go find it. I was just scrolling, but I’m going to go find it. Do you remember, Julie, do you remember her name? 

Julie: You’re asking me if I remember anybody’s name?

Meagan: I’m the name person. I keep thinking it starts with a J. I’m going to find it though and I’m going to drop it in for you, AJ. Okay, “I just had a VBAC a few months ago and,” awww. “I’m so thankful for both of you.” Thank you, Allison. That’s so sweet. So, so sweet. 

Julie: Thank you. 

How to manage sciatica pain

Meagan: Congratulations! Okay, Jenn. “I’m 39 weeks. My sciatica only allows me to walk for about 20 minutes without cramping. I see a chiropractor twice a week, but other than that, what can I do to help keep my baby in a good position and get labor going?” 

I would suggest the Miles Circuit right off the bat. Miles Circuit is wonderful. You can do it multiple times a day. There are three circuits and you want to try to do it for a minimum of 30 minutes but sometimes you have to lead up to that. That would be something that I would suggest. Maybe giving it a try. Also, Spinning Babies is very much a balance factor in creating balance.

It sounds like your sciatica is not loving you right now and that is hard. That is hard, so being mindful also of being symmetrical and getting out of the car. I know that sounds really weird, but not stepping out with your left. Stepping out with your right. Trying to move out together because that separation with relaxin and things like that can cause the pelvic to shift, which then causes sciatica issues and all of those things. But I would suggest Miles Circuit. I would also suggest a massage. Getting things relaxed and soft because sometimes when things are tense, we’ve got that sciatica issue. Julie, what else would you suggest on that?

Julie: Yeah. First of all, I would say that if you are in pain, then don’t do anything. It’s okay to stop. You don’t want to hurt yourself and cause pain, tension, and stress in your body because that could interfere with your natural labor hormones. But honestly, I would think going to a chiropractor twice a week and walking 20 minutes a day is great. I think that’s great to do. If that’s all you can do, then I don’t think you need to do anything else. 

39 weeks could still be early based on when your baby wants to come, so don’t feel like you urgently have to do anything. If your provider is pushing you a little bit, then it might be time to have a conversation about what your boundaries are and where you are willing to go as far as how far along gestationally before you interfere. But yeah, what Meagan says for sure. The Miles Circuit, absolutely. Two positions in the Miles Circuit are that you are resting pretty much and just creating more space in the pelvis. 

I would say maybe if you want to try changing it up from walking, one of my favorite things is going up and down the stairs sideways two at a time. It’s kind of like walking, but you are really opening up that pelvis. So you go up with the right foot first, down with the right foot first, then switch to the left foot first, up and down. That’s creating a nice, flexible, open space and lots of equal balance like Meagan said. 

Meagan: And listening to your body on that. Listening to your body. If it’s too much, stop or just do three sets of stairs, three stairs. Just don’t push your body. Yeah. But I like that one. I actually did that with a client at a birth center where there were some stairs. We did that to get labor going and it totally helped. It was amazing. 

Julie: Yeah, I love that. That’s my favorite or curb walking. You just walk right foot on the curb and left foot off the curb and then switch with the other foot to keep that balance and stretch both sides of the pelvis. But yeah, change it up a little bit. I think you are doing great, personally.

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Going to the chiropractor that often is amazing. Realigning. But yeah, 20 minutes, maybe cut it down to 15 minutes. Just a little less before you are in too much agony. Yeah, yeah. 

Julie: It’s okay to take a rest. It’s okay to not do it one day too, or a few days, or every other day or twice a week. 

Meagan: Yeah. I would also say shaking the apples which is a Spinning Babies thing, but that actually really relaxes and softens down there and can help with sciatica pain. That’s just where you put the rebozo around your bottom and have someone sift, so you’re kind of doing this.

Julie: It’s so fun. 

Meagan: This is so hard to be on a Live because I talk a lot with my hands. If you can see this in this video, Julie is very much here and I’m dancing.

Julie: I even brushed my hair today. 

Meagan: You kind of get sifted and it really is nice for that sciatica. Okay, oh let’s see. Just listened to all,” oh my gosh, “all 198 episodes of you guys.” Oh yes, yes. I just can’t believe that we are at 200 episodes. I was telling my husband today and he was like, “Whoa. That’s a lot.” Yeah, that’s awesome. So awesome. Okay, do you guys have any other questions coming in on here? What else would you like to talk about, Julie, while we are waiting on any other questions? It’s been a minute. It’s been a minute since you’ve been on here. 

Julie: I know. It was 15 minutes before it was about to start. I was editing photos all day, so I was like, “Oh shoot, I should brush my hair and change my shirt,” because I had this frumpy little shirt on. I’m like, “We’re going to be on video today. We never usually do that.” 

Meagan: Yeah. 

You don’t have to be induced at 39 or 40 weeks!

Julie: So it’s just interesting. Let me think. I was just trying to think what has been bugging me from The VBAC Link Community lately. Not bugging me, but you know when you just want to grab ahold of people’s shoulders sometimes and say, “This doesn’t have to be this way. You don’t have to do this!” Or just like, “It’s okay to stand up for yourself.”

I think a lot of the things I have been seeing lately a little bit is when people talk about induction or their doctor not letting them go past a certain amount of weeks. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: That’s really kind of heartbreaking because, in America, we have a really frustrating maternal health care system. It’s really easy to get trapped in that if you’re not comfortable standing up for yourself if you don’t know that it’s okay to stand up to you’re provider, and if you don’t have an opinion about everything that you possibly can in birth. 

It’s hard when I see people going in and getting induced. We’ll see posts all of the time where people will be like, “Oh my gosh, I’m 6 centimeters. I’ve been soft for 8 hours. I was induced at 39 weeks. My provider said this and that and the other.” I just want you to know, everybody. You do not have to be induced at 39 or 40 weeks in order to get a VBAC.

Meagan: You don’t. You don’t. I also wanted to talk about the opposite. On the flip side of that, I want to say that you can have a VBAC if you are induced. 

Julie: Yes. 

Nipple stimulation to induce labor

Meagan: So there are both sides where it’s like you have to be induced or you can’t go for a VBAC or it’s, “I will not induce you.” And so anyway, it’s so hard. I was just looking. We have a group member that posted a couple of hours ago and she said, “I have a question about nipple stimulation to induce labor. I’ve been trying since yesterday and I do get contractions although they might just be Braxton Hicks because they are not really painful. But as soon as I stop, the contractions also stop. Any advice?”

I just want to talk about this. In fact, I think Julie wrote a blog about this. I think, didn’t you write a blog about nipple stimulation and pumping to induce labor? I’m pretty sure you did. 

Julie: I’m pretty sure that was you.

Meagan: It might have been. I don’t remember. 

Julie: That doesn’t sound like anything I would write. 

Meagan: Well, yes. So this is something that I actually did when I was in early labor. I wanted to talk about that, but my midwife kept saying, “Hook up to the pump. Hook up to the pump.” I hated that thing. That thing was not my friend, but it worked. It helped, I should say. But sometimes it doesn’t. And so kind of similar to what this group member is saying is that it sounds like it is releasing oxytocin in your body and it’s stimulating something. Something enough to cause your body to contract or have some sort of spasms in your uterus, right? Which is a contraction whether or not it is strong.

But when you stop, it stops and so that is– this is what I tell my clients too. That is a sign that your body is not quite ready or it’s not going to respond to this type of method right now. Pumping is a really great option, but if it’s not going, I would say to pause. Maybe just give it a break and see what happens. You can try again later or follow the advice of your provider. 

I would say that it’s not bad that your body is not responding and it doesn’t mean anything like it’s not going to work ever, but it just sounds like your body may not be ready. So my advice is to maybe give it a break, try it a little bit more, try it a little bit longer and see, or maybe go have sex instead and try to release oxytocin in a different way in your body. So anyway, I just saw that. Are there other questions that have come in? Do you see any?

Julie: Yes, there is. 

Meagan: Okay.

Julie: Hi Paige, by the way! Hi Paige. Paige commented on the pumping to induce labor blog. 

Meagan: Oh yeah. 

Julie: Okay, so Tiffany, nope. Not Tiffany. It’s before that one. Tiffany, I’m going to get there. Angel said that if we want to read her post in the group that she would love some thoughts. So I found Angel’s post and I will read it. I love this. I have lots of thoughts, so Angel, if you are still watching, could you drop your location in the comments so I know? Oh, you’re in New Zealand. You already said that. 

VBA3C

Julie: She said, “I would love your opinions. I have contacted 15 midwives in New Zealand and all have said ‘no’ to a VBAC after 3 C-sections. The main reason why I don’t want a fourth Cesarean is because fentanyl is in a spinal block.” P.S. a lot of people don’t know that. When you have an epidural or when you have a spinal block, the epidural is not the medicine. It is the method of giving it into your body. An epidural has lots of different medications in it. Fentanyl is one of them. Tramadol is another one. Sometimes there are antibiotics in there with them. But a lot of people don’t know that fentanyl is in an epidural and a spinal block. 

Okay, so she says, “Tramadol is the pain relief afterward.” Tramadol is a form of morphine. That will be present in the milk which is one of the reasons why she doesn’t want it. Antibiotics afterward, milk again, and all of her children have had severe colic and reflux to the point of sleeping four scattered hours overnight until they are 16 months old. All day naps are held upright. This is physically and mentally shattering. Could there be a link between colic, reflux, and antibiotics? It may be a possibility. “I live a 100% organic, tox-free lifestyle. I don’t even take pain relief for headaches. Cesareans go against my holistic lifestyle.”

“That being said, the first two Cesareans, I believe, were medically necessary.” Cord wrapped very tightly around necks, very thin and short. Babies were wrapped up by their necks tightly and couldn’t move down, couldn’t descend. Fetal distress straightaway for the first baby, second repeat Cesarean for the same issue. The third, the cord was fine, loosely on my tummy, but the amniotic fluid was a 4. It should have been a 7. She was pressured into a repeat Cesarean in case there was the same issue as the first two. 

She said, “I just need tough love, realistic answers.” Should she just have a fourth Cesarean and do everything else holistically? 

Meagan: That’s tough. 

Julie: Yes. 

Meagan: We had a message come in earlier. I’m wondering if it’s the same person because it sounds strangely familiar. New Zealand. I can’t speak. But wow, that’s tough. That’s tough because you have good, solid reasons, beliefs, and feelings. Yeah. You know, it sounds like you are getting a lot of pushback in your area. A lot. That’s a lot. There may be somewhere underground there that would allow it, but yeah. I don’t know. It seems like you have enough reason to not do certain things. I don’t know. I would maybe. I would maybe, actually. What would you do, Julie?

Julie: Well, she says she wants tough love and I love tough love. So when I get permission for it, I will fork it out. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: So here’s the thing. First of all, vaginal birth after three Cesareans, I love, love, love that we are seeing more stories come out about VBAC after 3 C-sections. 

Meagan: Me too. 

Julie: There’s not a lot of data to support its safety or not. We have a few studies if you want to google VBAMC. We have a whole blog about the information that is available, but there’s just not a lot out there. The way we get a lot of information out there is for more people to do it, right? That might not be a risk that a lot of people are willing to take. Personally, I would probably try it because I kind of know all of the information and everything, but I don’t know because I haven’t been there.

So here’s my tough love, okay? It sounds like you have talked to a lot of providers. This sounds like the providers you have talked to do not want to support you in your choice. And so when that happens, and this is for anybody who can’t find a supportive provider not necessarily just directed at you, Angel, you have a few options. 

First is to go into labor and wait as long as you can and go to the hospital and fight and fight and fight. Out-of-hospital probably wouldn’t take you on as a patient. But depending on, I don’t know how the healthcare system is set up exactly out there. So go to the hospital, show up pushing, which I would never recommend that ideally if you could, but that’s an option for you, okay? Go into labor. Go into the hospital. Maybe get a doula. Have your partner on board or somebody there who can really heavily advocate for you and be fighting the whole time. 

Or you can birth unassisted at home, which I also don’t necessarily recommend, but there are a lot of people that can do it and do it smartly. 

Meagan: They have a lot of solid resources.

Julie: A lot of resources, have a really solid backup plan, know everything that you need to look for as far as warning signs in labor, maybe labor close to the hospital or in the hospital parking lot or something like that. Neither of those might be good options for you, but it sounds like there’s not really a good option anyway. I think also, sometimes I appreciate and envy, to some degree, the holistic lifestyle that you have. 

Sometimes, if you don’t feel comfortable fighting in the hospital or having a baby unassisted, your third option is to have a repeat Cesarean. 

Meagan: Make it really special. 

Julie: Maybe you won’t have a holistic lifestyle at that moment. ** You’re going to have to get some medications that you don’t love, right? You’re going to risk having those things *** began with the colic and maybe the upset digestive tract from the antibiotics and things like that, but that also might not be the worst thing to have ***. The only thing that you are going to be able to know is what the best choice is even though there is not a good choice. I don’t know if that makes sense or not, but yeah. 

I mean, you can create a nice, beautiful space like Meagan just said. You can ask for the spinal block and see if there are any alternatives to the fentanyl or other kinds of medication that they can put in there. You can ask for a shorter hospital stay. You can look into ways to heal your baby’s gut after the C-section. You can look into vaginal seeding which can get the baby’s gut populated with your flora from the vaginal canal which is really helpful for the baby’s microbiome and things like that. I feel really angry for you a little bit. 

Meagan: I know. 

Julie: –that the system is set up to work against you in such ways. But I feel like this is something that you are really going to have to sit with and tune into your intuition hardcore and figure out what risks you want to accept, right? Because it sounds like you are going to have to accept some whether it’s birthing with a C-section and not having the birth you want and introducing those different things to your baby, birthing unassisted without a provider present, or fighting as hard as you can in the hospital for your VBAC. 

Meagan: It infuriates me that people even have to be in this space at all.

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: The providers are so worried about supporting people doing vaginal birth after multiple Cesareans, yet they’re pushing people and making people feel like they have no choice other than to birth with no provider. I am not saying that someone who births without a provider– I’m not shaming anybody for sure, but I think it’s nice to have that supportive provider behind you, that trained, skilled provider. A lot of people that do go unassisted, I’m not kidding you guys, they dive in deep. They are prepared and that’s awesome. Good for them. Absolutely good for them. 

But it just makes me so mad that someone even feels like they are stuck in making that option. 

Julie: Yeah, I agree. Angel also asked a follow-up question if she could decline antibiotics. Here’s the thing. You can decline anything you want to decline. It’s just going to depend on what’s going to make your providers nervous and if they’re willing to provide care or not. I don’t know. I don’t know if your provider will be comfortable doing a C-section without having antibiotics available during and after the C-section or not, but that’s something that you can talk with your provider about ahead of time and see what that looks like. Or have a minimum dose or only one round or something like that. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. I love that. Sorry, my little boy, this was also part of our technical difficulties. Look at his head. Show everybody your head. 

Julie: He got konked. 

Meagan: And your arms, huh. Yeah, he fell today at recess. 

Julie: All right, let’s move on to the next question. Angel, I give you all of my love and support. 

Meagan: I wish you luck. 

Julie: Yeah, I do. Please keep us updated. Us, again. You guys, this is killing me. Meagan, you have to let me know when Angel updates you because I’m invested now. 

Gentle induction plans

Julie: Okay, what’s next? We have– oh, yes. Let’s get to Tiffany. Hi Tiffany. Tiffany M. Okay, so she said that her doctors told her that they will not allow her to go past 39-40 weeks. She was able to control her blood pressure thus far and she had hypertension in her last two pregnancies. Her doctor doesn’t want to induce because it allegedly increases the risk of rupture. 

Meagan: Your voice. 

Julie: Sorry. “They’ve been insanely supportive of VBAC but this contradicts what I’ve been seeing.” Yes. This is what we were talking about before, right? Induction. You can have a VBAC after being induced, but also you don’t want to have to be induced at some arbitrary deadline to have a VBAC. Induction does increase the risk of rupture slightly, but when it’s managed appropriately, the risk is very minimal. 

So definitely look into that. Poke your provider. I say “poke your provider”. Don’t poke the bear, right? Don’t poke the bear. Ask your provider. Talk with them and see because that might not be a provider that is that supportive. It is sad that when you have a provider that you absolutely love and there’s this one thing. There’s one thing and it sounds like this is the one thing.

Meagan: But that’s a big deal. 

Julie: It is a big deal, yeah. 

Meagan: A big deal, yeah. 

Julie: And people won’t allow you to go past 39-40 weeks. I would bust out the ACOG bulletins on VBAC and the late-term management of pregnancies or something. 

Meagan: Yeah, and induction. Yes. I was just going to say. Bring them, even if it sounds over the top because I’m going to tell you, print it all off and take it to them. 

Julie: Do it. 

Meagan: And say, “But this is what this says. This is who you are under and this is what they are saying, so why can’t we discuss a gentle induction plan?” Or, “Let’s observe and do more monitoring with all of these things and take it day by day. Take it every other day. I’ll do an NST. Let’s break it down so you’re comfortable. I’m comfortable. We’re all doing what is safe for me and baby of course.” Sometimes it sounds extreme, but it might take bringing it in and saying, “Hey. This is what I have found. Let’s talk about it. Let’s break it down.”

Are you going and getting that for her? Is that what you’re doing?

Julie: I’m responding to whatever comments. 

Meagan: Oh okay.

Julie: Obviously now, I’ll just do it verbally. So she said, “Managed how? Through a slow administration of induction medicine?” Yes, absolutely. Yes, so this is the thing. Sometimes you’ll hear the phrase “Pit to distress” where nurses will, this is a real thing. It’s sad but it is, where nurses will up the Pitocin so aggressively that it literally forces the baby to go into distress so they just do a C-section. It’s a very aggressive way to administer Pitocin. You don’t want that. You want to do a nice, slow dose. Increase it by 1 or 2 every 45 minutes to an hour. Give your body a chance to respond before upping it even more. 

I’ve seen VBAC inductions where they konk out the Pitocin by 4 every 30 minutes and before two hours happens, you’re up at the max dose of Pitocin and then the baby gets so stressed out and you have a C-section.

Meagan: And the body isn’t responding fast enough.

 

Julie: The body’s not responding at all because it doesn’t know what the crap is going on. It’s being slammed with Pitocin, this artificial hormone. That is not an induction that is managed well. A managed well induction is nice and slow. Start with a Foley bulb. Start with a nice, slow dose of Pitocin. Rest during the beginning of it. Give your body time to catch up. While being monitored, that’s a nice compromise and making sure everything is being tolerated well. If your body is responding, stop turning the Pitocin up at all or even turn it off after your body kicks into labor. 

Meagan: Yes. I was also going to say there is something called a “Pit holiday” where sometimes our uterine receptors get too full and overstimulated with Pitocin. It’s okay to do a “Pit holiday” and cut it in half. So say you’re at 20, let’s cut it down to 10 and see how our body responds because sometimes we can be overstimulated and our body is like, “This is too much too fast. I don’t know what’s happening.” It’s not responding and then we cut it in half, our uterine receptors empty, our body kicks into that natural labor, and then boom. We’re in labor and we don’t even need 20 mL of Pitocin, right? 

Or like Julie said, we get into this active phase and we feel like we have to keep upping the Pitocin, but if we’re getting into the active phase and we’re making progress, we don’t need to keep pushing Pitocin. And yeah, slow dose. 

Sometimes, some people, we recorded a story just now and talked about this. It’s coming out in October, so let’s talk about it right now. Sometimes we get in a space where induction is what’s needed this time, but we’re not cervically progressed enough to just put in a Foley or a Cook, right? 

So sometimes, we have to start a low dose Pit, maybe 2, 4, 6 mL max and just let it be for hours. It could take hours, you guys. I’m not kidding. Not three hours, not four, but ten plus hours it can take sitting at that slow, low dose to get the uterus stimulated enough to open just enough to get a Foley or a Cook catheter in comfortably. And then, we start from there. We work with the Foley and the Cook. Maybe you leave Pit right there or maybe they start increasing it or they just do the Pit at 6 or 8 or 10, and then just let the Foley do its thing until it falls out and then we start from there. There are so many ways that we can manage and take things slowly. 

Walking in, breaking someone’s bag of waters is not necessarily slow, managed, and controlled but that’s what a lot of providers will do also. They say, “Oh, I’ll just bring you in. We’ll just bring you in and break your water.” Sometimes, the body doesn’t respond to that and it takes hours, and then we’ve got Pitocin coming into play anyway. But then sometimes, that’s the perfect way, right? So we have to take it slowly. We have to decide what’s best for us and where we are at cervically can make a big difference of where we start. 

Julie: Where we are at cervically, I love that. 

Meagan: Yeah, where we are at cervically. 

Julie: Cervically, cool. All right. Thank you, thank you. All right, let’s move on. Christine, Christina. She says, oh I think it’s maybe more of a review. Thank you. Okay, so she says, “Listening in from South Africa.” We have lots of people from South Africa lately by the way. 

Meagan: Yay. 

Julie: I say “we” like I’m, anyways. “Been listening to the podcast, binge listening all the time and so amazed at how much I’m learning in each story and from you both. I also love how listening to everyone’s stories, especially the C-section stories have helped me process mine and helped me feel much more peace going into my VBAC at the end of this year. Thank you so much for the podcast and everything you guys are doing. I keep sharing relevant episodes with friends that are currently pregnant with their first. Things I wish I had known despite having done a lot to prepare for my first birth.”

Meagan: I love that. Thank you. 

Julie: Aww. I love that. Thank you. Yes, Meagan. Grab this and drop it into the review spreadsheet. 

Meagan: I know, will you copy and paste it for me? I’m going to read this. I pulled into the group and found a question that just was posted. We actually got a lot of recent questions here in the group and so I figured I’d throw this one in. 

Julie: Wait, but there are more in these comments, though. 

Meagan: Oh, keep going. 

Julie: Do you want me to do the comments first?

Meagan: Yes, sorry. I didn’t see it. 

What happens if you don’t sign a C-section consent form?

Julie: No, you’re totally fine. There’s AJ, Juleea, and maybe more. Okay so AJ said, “Hypothetically, what happens if you don’t sign a C-section consent form? I know they can’t just make you take you back, but how would you handle this if they were being forceful?”

Meagan: Now that one’s super hard because you have to be strong. You have to be really strong. But how I would handle it, I would break it down. I would ask them to break it down and talk about why. “Why are you asking me to sign this form? Am I in danger? Is my baby in danger? Are we facing death?” 

Julie: Facing death. “Will I die?” 

Meagan: Yeah, complications by dying. “Are you telling me that my baby and I are going to die right now? Because if we are having this conversation then that probably means that it’s not the case.” But yeah, break it down and say, “No. I don’t consent to this. I don’t feel comfortable with this. If this is not life threatening right now, and this is not emergent, then I want to continue on the path that I’m going.” This sounds really bad and it’s so hard because everyone can be– we’ve got people all over the world, right?

Sometimes it’s saying, “Okay. I’m going to leave. I’m going to go somewhere else.” We’ve had that. Julie and I personally have had clients say, “Okay, I’m leaving then. If we’re not going to do this, if this is not what’s going to happen, then I’m going somewhere else.” And sometimes they change their tune right there because they don’t want you to leave. They usually don’t want you to leave, so they change their tune and say, “Okay, hold on.” But sometimes, it takes leaving and going to somewhere else that is supportive. But that’s not what you really want to do in labor. 

Julie: Yeah, this is why you want to figure it out before labor starts. 

Meagan: Yeah, it’s not the space that you deserve to be in during this labor journey, but sometimes it’s fighting. It’s fighting and it’s hard. It goes back to what we were talking about with Angel. It makes me so mad that there’s not the support that everyone really deserves. We deserve the support, you guys. We’re just going in to have babies. That’s all. We’re just going in to have a baby just like everybody else, but sometimes we’re not viewed as that. 

So yeah. Any other tips, Julie? I mean, yeah. I would say breaking it down and having that conversation, but what would you say?

Julie: I mean, I would kind of say the same thing. A lot of the times, I feel like, they just have you sign all of the forms that you might possibly ever need while you are in labor at the beginning of labor because it saves on admin time and it saves on things you have to do later on and things like that. But what I would ask about the C-section form, when they’re going through that whole process is, “Do you make first-time moms sign this form?” Because I bet you, I know their answer because they don’t make every laboring person sign a C-section form, but they will if they are getting you ready for a C-section or they think that you are at an increased risk for one.

And so, we all know what the numbers are surrounding VBAC and what your chance of success is and how, if given the option to try, you are very likely to succeed. So I would just ask that. And if they say, “No,” or whatever their answer is, I would change my next question or next statement. My next statement after they answered would be that, “I will sign it if it is looking like that is going to be an option, but for now, I am planning on a vaginal delivery. Until a C-section becomes imminent, I will refrain from signing the form.” 

And then if they raise a big fuss after that, I might go to more extremes like what Meagan talked about. But I mean, this is the thing. If it’s a life or death situation and you’re not looking great or baby is not looking great and I’m not talking about, “Oh, we have some concerns.” I’m talking about, “We need to do something now.” They’re not going to care whether the consent form is signed or not, they’re going to wheel you to the operating room and save your life or save your baby’s life. 

And so I think that waiting and asking to wait until it looks like a C-section is needed or necessary is a perfectly reasonable option. 

Meagan: Yeah, I agree. Okay, so I realized that I didn’t see because I only saw one last comment from Tiffany saying that she is anti-Pitocin over there.

Releasing fear around childbirth

Julie: Yeah. Julie has one. And this is a great one for you, Meagan, too. It’s how do you release fear around childbirth? I’m 40 weeks today and I’m anxious for labor. My first arrived via C-section at 37 weeks due to high blood pressure and being breech. I never experienced any part of labor and I’m just fearing the unknown. Fearing uterine rupture, not progressing, tearing, all of it. 

Meagan: Yeah. You know, fear release is so important. So important and I think I’ve talked about this maybe on my story or maybe in other things, talking about how I thought I released everything, and then I was in labor and there were still stuff that I was processing and working through and having to go through. But a few tips that I have are actually Julie’s fear release that she did a long time ago on our YouTube and it’s a smokeless or flameless. 

Julie: Smokeless fear release except that’s used very loosely because we did create smoke at a fear release once. 

Meagan: We did. We did. We did. 

Julie: There were a lot of people releasing their fears, but yes. 

Meagan: Yes, I actually remember. That was really crazy. We did that in a VBAC class actually. 

Julie: Yeah, at my house. 

Meagan: Yeah, so I actually really, really, really love that activity and suggest it all of the time. I’ve actually done it with my own clients in labor. We’ve done it in living rooms on the floor. Obviously, it’s hard to do if you’re in a hospital at this place, you can’t just break that out. 

Julie: Light a fire, yeah. 

Meagan: But doing it, and even if it’s every night because for me, when I was preparing, I had different thoughts and being on social media didn’t help me quite honestly in that very end. And so some of the tips would be the fear release activity, going through, writing them down, burning them, and truly burning them. Burning your fears. Letting them go. Letting them go and accepting whatever is coming your way. 

Know that you have done all that you can to prepare for whatever does come your way. So that and I also suggest doing that with partners because sometimes partners’ fears will trickle in and create fear. Not that they’re meaning to do it, but they have fears and then they say things and our minds are like, “Oh, I didn't think about that.” And we have to process that. 

Another thing would be a social media break. Sometimes social media in the end is wonderful and motivating and positive and keeps us in a great place, and sometimes, it just starts creating more fear. So sometimes we think that taking a total social media break is really healthy and helps process because you can just be with your own thoughts and not with all of the other hundreds and thousands of people on social media’s thoughts because everyone is going to have an opinion. Everyone is going to have an experience. You love hearing those just like we love hearing this podcast and these stories, right? But sometimes, those feelings and those experiences can rub off on us, sometimes in a negative way. 

So if you’re noticing that some of your fears and things you’ve seen and heard on Facebook or social media, any social media platform, maybe take a break from that. I would say journaling is one of the best things I did for myself in processing fear. I was told by my OB that I was for sure going to rupture. He told me that. As I was on the table, he was so glad I didn’t have a VBAC because I for sure would have ruptured. For sure. When I heard the words “for sure”, that was very dominant in my mind and it hung with me. So when I’m laboring with my third, I was feeling that in my head. “What if I rupture? What am I doing? Am I doing the right thing?”

I knew in my heart that I was doing the right thing but I had self doubt. And so if that starts creeping in, voice it. I would say that my suggestion would be to get it out. Get it out. I’m sure that Julie has seen it, but as a doula, sometimes we can see our clients are thinking really hard in here and they’re maybe having self-doubt and things like that. It’s just so good to get it out. Get it out. Processing. Getting it out, talking, saying it out loud, hearing yourself say it is the first step to processing it as well. 

So if you’re doing a fear release, don’t just write it down. Write it down. Say it out loud and then burn it. That would be some of my suggestions. And then keep educating yourself. Keep educating yourself. You said tearing, rupture, and these are all valid feelings and fears. I want you to know that. These are all valid and you’re not alone. But yeah. Fearing not progressing, that’s a big fear. I know that. But again, setting yourself up with a great supportive provider who’s going to give you time, trust, and giving you the things you need to progress. That will help. Anything you’d like to add? 

Julie: No, I love that. I want to get a little bit sciency and nerdy on here. I don’t know. It’s not a secret or anything but I’ve been doing a butt load of therapy over the last year and a half and part of the things that, at some point, I learned this in therapy, but your brain, I think we all know that your emotional brain and your logical brain are in separate parts. They do not touch each other. They do not talk to each other. They do not know what each other has going on, right? 

Your emotional brain is very reactive and responsive. It’s where a lot of this anxiety comes from. It’s where your fear comes from. It’s where all of your negative feelings live, well, all of your emotions live. All of your big things. Your logical brain doesn’t know what’s going on in your emotional brain. They do not communicate with each other or else we would probably all be a lot more reasonable about our entire lives. 

In order to process your emotions and reconcile them and get rid of your fears, the best thing you can do like Meagan just said, in lots of different ways, is to get them out there. Get them out. Verbally talking about them, writing them down, talking to a therapist, talking to whoever is a nice, safe space for you. Any safe way that you can get them out of your emotional brain, then your logical brain can say, “Oh. That’s what’s going on over here.” It gives your logical mind a chance to take over and reconcile a lot of these things that are going on and put this emotional brain at ease so they’re not fighting and conflicting. They’re able to reconcile with each other. I don’t know if that makes sense. 

That’s a big thing for me which is like, “Oh yes. I need to get these things out.” Don’t stuff your emotions down or stuff your feelings down. Get them out and it helps your brain process and work through them together so that you’re not so isolated and your feelings are not so isolated from the other parts of your body that are a lot more logical. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that. Thank you, Julie. 

Julie: You’re welcome. 

Meagan: Okay, let’s see. She has been thinking about taking a social media break, actually. It’s really refreshing. Worried about tearing more than uterine rupture. And yeah, tearing is scary. It is scary to think about. Lots of people do tear and it is repairable, but I would say my tip for that would be to really follow your body when it comes time to push whether it be unmedicated or medicated, really listen to your body and when that baby is crowning, just little, little nudges, assuming all is going well and that will help. 

And then really, baby position, right? We want to work on baby’s position because the more the baby is in an ideal position, the better it is for baby to come out. But sometimes we have these little things where we have babies doing this and sometimes we have babies doing this. 

Julie: Or doing this. 

Meagan: Or doing this or they come out like this and they do funny things. Tears happen, but try your hardest and let gravity help. Squatting on your side, positions that may reduce tearing and may focus on centered gravity versus a perfect spot, I don’t know the word that I’m looking for. A specific spot of gravity. Does that make sense? On your back, the bottom of your perineum has more direct pressure than when you’re squatting. It’s more central. 

So working on positions and even if you have an epidural, you can push on your side. You can push squatting assisted. It’s totally possible. But yeah, anyway. Tearing is scary. 

Julie: Tearing happens. I love that you said that. 

Meagan: Tearing happens. It does. I mean, I’m going to be honest. 

Julie: Most of the time, it’s not that bad. Most of the time. 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: I had a first degree with my first VBAC. I didn’t tear with my other two. I heard somebody say once, maybe it was on social media or something recently, but the biggest impact on whether you tear or not and how bad is your provider. 

Meagan: Yeah. We’ve got providers that just are a little rough. 

Julie: They force you to push on your back or stretch your perineum out so much. A lot of people think that helps, but it can actually increase your chance of tearing too. I don’t know. But yeah, give that a chance too, and talk to your provider seriously about not pushing on your back. Even with an epidural, you can push on your side. 

Meagan: Yeah. Totally. Totally. Love it, love it, love it. Okay, any other questions that you are seeing coming in? I love that she was like, “Yeah. People say this and then we just nod and assume they’re scheduling a C-section.” They just nod like, uh-huh. We have a ton of questions coming in on social media, so are you okay if we do a couple more?

Julie: Yeah, I just have to grab my kids in 25 minutes, so I’ve got some time. And then I want to wrap up and do a little short catch-up on how I’ve been doing since The VBAC Link. That would be fun, right? Do you think? 

Meagan: Yeah. Yes. 

Julie: Okay. 

Labor expectations 

Meagan: Okay, so this is from an Instagram follower and she says, “VBAC after a scheduled C-section. Should I expect labor as long as a first-time mom?” 

Julie: Can you say that again? You broke up just a little bit. Did she say what should I expect as a first-time mom? 

Meagan: “After a scheduled C-section, should I expect,” assuming she’s going to VBAC, “Should I expect just as long of labor as a first-time mom?” So meaning that she’s scheduled the C-section, never went into labor, never dilated, things like that. In short, yes possibly. 

Julie: Yes. 

Meagan: Yes, right? So my VBAC was my third baby, my first real labor. It was kind of freaking long. It was long. But then, we sometimes have moms that had a breech baby and it was a scheduled C-section. They go in, right? Yes. 

Julie: Pick me, pick me. I’ve got some stories. 

Meagan: Don’t share her story. 

Julie: Did she talk to you?

Meagan: No, but I’m going to talk to her. 

Julie: Okay, good. 

Meagan: So anyway, but sometimes it just goes really fast and we don’t know. So just like a first-time mom, not everyone goes long. Some people are precipitous. Some people can go really long. That can happen too and so yes, maybe is my answer. 

Okay, let’s see. 

Julie: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Before you go on. 

Meagan: Oh, you really wanted me to pick you. I pick you, Julie. 

Julie: Pick me. Pick me. Pick me. 

Okay, so I just want to let you know that yeah like Meagan said, you are more likely to labor for longer identical to a first-time mom, but man, sometimes this baby is going to fly out and it’s going to catch you off guard. And I have two stories, I’m not going to tell them, but I have two stories where the labors were super short. Moms got their VBACs at home on their bathroom floors because the labor just catches you off guard so much. 

Meagan: It can happen. 

Julie: Plan on going to 42 weeks. Plan on a 24-hour labor because it’s probably not going to be that long, but the more you can, if you expect that, then anything shorter is just going to be encouraging rather than planning on a shorter amount of time and having a longer thing being discouraging. That’s my advice. 

Double-layer suture versus single-layer

Meagan: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Okay, this next question is, “Does the type of suture matter much? I had a single-layer but read that double was better.” 

Julie: Oh, pick me again. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: Sorry, you’re looking at me. 

Meagan: I’m looking at you. 

Julie: All right, so here’s the thing. There used to be a belief that a double-layer suture is, because there are several layers of the uterus, right? The single-layer versus double-layer. A single-layer closure means they sew all of the layers up with one stitch, one suture. Double-layer is where they close it in two separate layers, right? So there used to be a belief that a double-layer suture was safer and would decrease your risk of uterine rupture if you go through vaginal birth, or I guess, overall because you don’t have to go for a vaginal birth to have a rupture. 

But since then, there have been several studies come out that show that there’s no significant difference in rupture rates between single-layer versus double-layer closures. So, no. It doesn’t make that big of an impact. Now, there has been one recent study that shows that a double-layer closure is optimal, but that one study isn’t very big. It’s not very credible. It’s not as big and not as inclusive as a Cochrane review and things that show that there are not really big differences. 

So sometimes, people will say, “There’s this one study in 2021 that shows this.” See, probably not in that voice, but anyways. But the majority of information that we have shows that it does not matter. However, ten years ago, people used to think that it would make a big impact. Things have shifted since then. 

Meagan: Yeah, we still have many providers that say it actually determines eligibility based on that. Like, tons. We get emails all of the time. It’s like, “Hey, I really want a VBAC but I found out that I only have a single-layer suture, so I can’t. Is this true?” So yeah. Okay, ready for the next one? 

Julie: Yeah. 

Special scars

Meagan: Low, transverse uterine incision that extends one side vaginally. Vaginally? Can I VBAC? Vaginally? 

Julie: Vaginally? I wonder if it’s a J? 

Meagan: That’s what I’m wondering. 

Julie: Except she said, “Vaginally.”

Meagan: I’ve actually never heard of a uterine incision extending all the way. 

Julie: I don’t think it can. It can go down into the cervix. 

Meagan: Yeah, the uterus is up and then it has the cervix. It goes like this. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah, and then that comes down into the vagina, but they’re separate.

Julie: I wonder if there’s some word confusion there. 

Meagan: Maybe. I will ask her, but I’m wondering if this is meaning a special scar. 

Julie: Well, yeah. 

Meagan: I’m wondering if maybe there is some confusion about a special scar and yeah. People still VBAC with special scars. They do. We have special scars on the podcast. 

Julie: Leslie’s is my favorite birth story. She goes into such detail about the data and everything about that. 

Meagan: Yes, Leslie did a home birth, right? 

Julie: Yeah, I think it’s episode 18 or something in the teens I think.

Meagan: She was really early on. So yes you can. It’s still possible. You still want to educate yourself. Just because you can doesn’t mean you are going to choose to or that you’re going to want to. 

Julie: Or that you’re going to find a provider that’s going to support you. 

Meagan: Or that you’re going to find a provider that’s going to support you, and so we encourage everybody to do the research, look at the education. We have some blogs. We talk about special scars in our parent’s course. We have some episodes, so there is information out there for you guys. 

Julie: Yeah, the risk of rupture is a little bit higher with special scars, so that’s something to consider too, but what an acceptable risk is to you is going to be different for everybody. So I think it goes from about half a percent to maybe 1.2% or something in that range. It’s less than 2% overall, and so is a less than 2% risk of rupture acceptable for you? You’re going to be the only one to answer that. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Julie: Does that make sense? I feel like I didn’t understand the words coming out of my mouth. 

Meagan: Yeah, no. No, it made sense. 

Julie: Okay, do you ever do that? Anyways. 

Warning signs and symptoms for uterine rupture

Meagan: Yes. Okay, next question was, “Warning signs and symptoms for uterine rupture?” This is a really great question because we were talking about that, the fear of uterine rupture, and there are signs. There are, I should say, symptoms. Some of the signs and symptoms may be one, pain. Pain down there and if there’s an epidural in place, it might radiate up. The uterine rupture that I attended a long time ago, she had an epidural and they kept calling it a hot spot, but it was way, can you guys see me? Way up here in her ribs where it was hurting which is kind of an interesting spot, but it was just radiating where she wasn’t numb, where she could feel. So yeah, pain. 

And also pain that doesn’t go away. Pain and discomfort during a contraction or surge comes and is there, and then it goes away, that may be different than the pain that is there, increases with contractions, doesn’t go away, and is still very intense. Bleeding, lots of bleeding, lots of bleeding. Stall of labor, where your labor is just not progressing. Baby going up, so moving stations, but dramatically. Like your baby was +2 and now your baby is -2. Stations can be subjective, they say their baby is a 0 but now it’s a -1, and they’re saying that maybe it’s a 0 to +1. It’s kind of subjective. 

Julie: Yeah, they’re just centimeters that we’re talking about with baby’s station. It can vary from provider to provider. 

Meagan: If you think about my hand to Julie’s hand, right? Our hands are very different. They look different. I have long skinny bony dumb fingers that I can’t stand. 

Julie: Not dumb. 

Meagan: Really wide palms, so my long, skinny fingers versus someone with shorter fingers may be different. One of the number one things that providers look for, although I will say that this isn’t always the number one first symptom is fetal heart tones. Fetal heart tones that are just tanking and not recovering, that is a concern. That is a concern and that is a sign. Let’s see, what else am I missing? 

Julie: I’m trying to think. I think that’s it. 

Meagan: I think that might be all. 

Julie: Yeah, and that’s the biggest reason why they’re really particular about continuous fetal monitoring for a VBAC. But yes, if you can feel the head on top of your pubic bone, it’s kind of weird to really describe that, but I’m not going to show you. 

Meagan: You can usually see it. There’s a bulge. Baby’s not in the right spot.

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: We also have a blog on that. So, okay. Are there any other questions in the Facebook group that I’m missing, Julie? Because I’m on Instagram right now. 

Julie: Let me check. 

Meagan: This one is, “My C-section was because of failure to descend. Do I still have a chance to VBAC?” Absolutely. Failure to descend means that baby just didn’t come down. A lot of the time, that’s due to positioning, that’s due to more failure to wait and let the baby have time to come down. Just because you’ve reached 10 centimeters doesn’t mean it’s time to have a baby necessarily. Sometimes baby needs to have time to rest and descend and come down, but yes. Absolutely. You guys, on Instagram, if you’re not there, we did pull over. So if you’re over here, yay. If not, then I’m going to try and get these answered on Instagram as well. Do we have any other questions?

Julie: I didn’t see any. Yep, nope. Still no. 

Meagan: Okay, any other final questions for the eight of you that are left? We’d love to finish up, but yeah. While we are waiting for any other final questions, Julie, did you want to update everybody on how the last couple of months have been for you? 

Julie’s update

Julie: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of a hard transition for both of us. Meagan is doing amazing trucking along, keeping everything going and I’m super excited to see all of the changes and stuff that are going on over on social media and the website and everything like that. I’m really proud of you. You’re doing amazing. 

Meagan: Thank you. 

Julie: And welcome the new admin, Katie, helping. She’s doing an amazing job too, it seems like so that is really great. Yeah, I mean, I’ve been trucking along with the birth photography thing. I think we talked about that on the podcast episode where I made the announcement that I was leaving, but it’s been going really good. I’ve been to several, many births since then. 

Meagan: Tons of births. 

Julie: Yeah, the last two weeks, I did five and it was actually ten days. It was five in ten days. Two of them, I was a backup for somebody, so it kind of doesn’t really count, but it kind of does. Several of them have been VBACs which have been amazing because I love still being able to be in that space and supporting people. Things are going well and I’m really excited. 

I do have, it’s a hard and separate feeling. I don’t know how to describe it because I know it was the right choice for me, but it’s also kind of sad at the same time. And so, yeah. I’m excited. I’m glad to still be kind of part of the community and being here in and out with Meagan every once in a while. I’ll pop back in to give an update and talk more. 

Yeah, I would love it if anybody wants to keep in touch. You can find me on Instagram, I’m just @juliefrancombirth. All one word, you can give me a follow or ask me questions. I’d be happy to talk or answer questions about anything, but I’m just so excited to see The VBAC Link thriving as it is. It makes me happy. I still talk about it. I still say “we” whenever I talk about The VBAC Link. I think it’s going to be a long time before that goes away. 

But yeah. I’m just proud of you for doing a great job. I’m excited. Life is just busy with other things. 

Meagan: Just other things, yeah. 

Julie: I’m able to manage all of my priorities right now instead of having everything halfway. 

Meagan: Yes, which is important. 

Julie: Yeah, it is important. What other questions do we have?

Meagan: Let’s see. “I had second-degree tears with my VBAC. Unmedicated, no coached pushing. It is still–” Oh, this is probably to comfort. “It was still worlds better than my C-section recovery was.” So yeah, like we were saying, tears happen, but it is a lot less invasive, usually those tears aren’t full tears cutting through all of the layers and things for a C-section. But yeah, I would agree. I didn’t end up tearing necessarily, but it was really tender down there. I just pushed a baby out of my vagina. 

Julie: A vaginal tear heals up way easier and faster, yeah. Certain parts of your body are more inclined to heal faster. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: But then, Tiffany asked, what’s the podcast name, and your Instagram? So obviously people listening and you replied there, but I want to say it for people listening. Obviously, if you’re listening to the podcast, you already know what the podcast name is, but it’s just The VBAC Link podcast just like our Facebook group. See? There I go again with “our.” We’re on Instagram and everywhere. The VBAC Link on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. There’s a Twitter. I don’t think we’ve tweeted in a really long time, but anywhere you want to find The VBAC Link, you just search. They are on so many platforms. Same with all of the podcast hosts, any major podcast platform or you can listen on thevbaclink.com/podcast. 

Meagan: Yeah, we’re everywhere. Instagram, all of the places. Yeah, and then like Julie said, Julie Francom Birth if you want to still follow Julie and her journey. We’re all supportive. I have a doula business. It’s Tiny Blessings Doula Services. You can see what we’re up to on the other side. But we really appreciate everybody. I think that’s all of the questions. We really appreciate everybody for coming on today, and dealing with our 34-minute delay. 

Julie: That sucked. 

Meagan: Because we knew there was one setting. We knew it had to be in the group, but we figured it out. 

Julie: But we figured it out. 

Meagan: That’s what matters. 

Julie: That’s what matters. 

Meagan: This has been really fun. So let us know if you really like this, this live podcasting, because that might be something fun that we can do here in the future in this amazing group. So yeah. As always, we love you. We thank you. Love any other reviews that you want to leave. You can email us if you have any other further questions at [email protected]. Instagram, Facebook, you can drop it still down in this, it’s going to be I think it will be in there. So yeah. We love you. Thank you so much. And Julie, I’ve missed you. 

Julie: I know. Gosh, it’s been so weird. 

Meagan: It is. 

Julie: So weird, and yeah. All of the feelings. 

Meagan: Yeah, but I’m really happy for you and we’re having fun over here at The VBAC Link still. We’ve got Katie helping out, so you guys will probably see Katie’s husband flipping around on Facebook. 

Julie: That was fun. 

Meagan: Or her cute face. She’s a cute little blonde so you’ll see her and you’ll see more of me as well. We’re really excited. Thank you so much for being with us today and mwah. We love you a lot.

   

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

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