The VBAC Link

“I don’t have anybody that I can use as a resource or as a reference, but I know that I am not an anomaly. I also know that I am not asking for too much. I am not asking for a vaginal birth. I’m asking for support. I’m asking you to hear me. I’m asking you to give me time. I’m asking you to let my body do the work. Let my body do the work instead of you dictating what you think my body should do.”

Mabel is a trailblazer. She walked the lonely road of fighting for her vaginal birth after a myomectomy with very limited resources, support, and anecdotal evidence. Mabel knew her risks. All she wanted from a provider was true support and the chance to try. 

This episode is a must-listen. Sit back and soak in all of the incredible advice Mabel offers to both VBAC and VBAM hopeful women. We were honored to have such a powerful woman of strength on our podcast today!

Additional links

Mabel’s Website: Within Her Birth Services

Special Scars Website

The VBAC Link Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello, how are you guys? This is The VBAC Link podcast and we are with you today with our friend, Mabel. We are so excited to hear her stories today. We encourage you to pause and listen up because this is going to be an amazing one. She is from northern Virginia and did you say DMC? Is that what you called it?

Julie: Washington DC.

Mabel: DMV.

Meagan: DMZ. 

Julie: Everybody’s confused. 

Mabel: Yeah. I’m from Northern Virginia. In the city and state, I’m from Bristow, Virginia, but it is technically part of northern Virginia. We call it the DMV– DC, Maryland, Virginia.

Meagan: DMV like where you go get your license.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Meagan: Okay, the DMV area. So if you are in her area, this is definitely one to listen to. But of course, we have a Review of the Week, so I’m going to turn the time over to cute Julie, and then we will dive into this story.

Review of the Week

Julie: Okay. You know I can’t just go right into the review. I have to say something. That’s really funny that you said “cute Julie”. That’s really funny because I have a longtime friend from when we were in the military. We hardly ever see each other but when we do, she is one of those friends that you just pick up right where you left off. It doesn’t matter if it has been a year since we talked to each other. Her name is Kelly and I would always call her “cute Kelly”. It’s “cute Kelly” and then she started calling me “cute Julie” and I am like, “Nobody calls me ‘cute Julie’ except for her.”

Meagan: Oh that’s funny.

Julie: So when you said “cute Julie”, I was like, “Aww. I miss my friend. I need to go call her after this.” Oh my gosh. Anyways, yes. Mabel from DMV, we are so excited to hear your story, but yes. I am going to read a review. OK. I really actually like this review. I read it on a previous podcast, but then I had forgotten to record that podcast and we had to get back on and start over, and I had to pick a shorter review. But I really like this one and I want to tell you why afterward. 

This is from Informed Mama on Apple Podcasts and she says, 

“I love listening to the inspirational stories of women of strength trusting their bodies and doing what they were created to do. As a mama who has had a C-section, it’s incredibly encouraging to hear that my feelings about my child’s birth are valid and also exciting to me that this could be our story someday, too.

“With this in mind, as a labor and delivery nurse, it hurts my heart to hear of women not consenting to interventions and of the overall mistrust of birth in a hospital setting. I do want to encourage all women that L&D nurses and OBGYNs are not evil, and we are not pushing for every woman to give birth in the OR. There are times when interventions are necessary for the safety of you and your child. We do have good intentions for you and your baby, and the safety of both of you is our utmost priority.

“If you are a pregnant woman listening to this podcast and find yourself anxious about your upcoming birth, please remember that the majority of us are honored to be there for this special day for you and want to honor your birth preferences as best we can. Please keep focusing on how strong you are, trust the process, and surround yourself with a birth team that will advocate for you!”

I love that review because first of all, I love it when we have OBs, hospital midwives, and labor and delivery nurses listening to our podcast and following along with The VBAC Link because I feel like change has to come from all sides in order for there to be an improvement in maternal health, our outcomes, and the birth privileges and birth rights that we all want. We all want to improve birth in the United States especially, but all over the world so I love that perspective.

My three VBACs were at home so just keep in mind my perspective, but I think it is really easy, sometimes, for us to get really defensive with the hospital systems and interventions. Yes obviously, Cesareans are heavily overused. That’s why we are here. We know that interventions are also overused and sometimes the hospital system feels like it is created to sabotage the birth process a little bit, but I like this reminder because it helps us remember that most people in the hospital system really do want to be there. They really do want to help you and want to see you have the safest and best birth that you possibly can.

I do want to add a little caveat in there that I know that there are some hospital staff, nurses, OBGYNs, and maybe even hospital midwives that do operate in a poor manner and can seem like they don’t have your best care at heart. I just think it’s important to remember that most of the time, people are willing to be accommodating, helpful, and supportive. 

I also don’t want to just discredit anybody that has had a traumatic birth experience. We are how many episodes in? I think 189 or something? We certainly have heard quite a few of those stories too. But I have found that especially being a doula here, most people are willing to accommodate and be supportive of your birth preferences as long as you make them known and as long as it is within their scope of practice as well. Anyways, I’ve been talking for a long time. Meagan, what would you add or should we just kick it off?

Meagan: No, yeah. I think that is great.

Mabel’s Story

Meagan: I am just so ready to dive into this story. So Mabel, without further ado, we welcome you to The VBAC Link to share your story. 

Mabel: Thank you. Thank you, ladies. I thought that review was a very helpful reminder, so it was nice to hear that. I will start by saying that a lot of my story is actually a lot of the things that happened before I even got pregnant, so I think the bulk of this story might weigh heavily on my pregnancy and trying to conceive journey which therefore helped me be successful with having a vaginal birth after my myomectomy. 

I don’t know if you know much about fibroids and myomectomies or if that is something that you have heard of or have encountered with clients or other VBAC stories.

Meagan: Especially fibroids specifically, we get messages about fibroids all the time like, “Hey, do you have any stories with people that have fibroids and had a VBAC?” or “Hey, do you know my risks?” I don’t know a ton, so I am excited to learn more. 

Mabel: Awesome. So I’ll start with that. A fibroid is a benign uterine growth that occurs in the uterus. They are benign so they’re not cancerous, but they can propose a lot of issues for women. Women can experience pelvic pain and excessive bleeding during their menstrual cycle. They may even appear pregnant because the mass is so big and it is projecting out of her uterus, causing her belly to swell.

Fibroids are actually a very common occurrence for women not just in the US but in the world. I think the statistics say that about 70% of women will experience fibroids at one point or another in their life. The statistic is quite disproportionate to black women. Black women have a higher risk of getting fibroids. I think the statistic says 8 out of 10 black women have fibroids whether they are symptomatic or not. So no matter your racial background, fibroids are very much a part of the female experience I have come to find out. 

Depending on where you are in life, you may decide to do something about them or not. In fact, most women don’t realize that they have a fibroid until they become pregnant or they are trying to become pregnant because one of the best ways to identify fibroids is through ultrasound. I have had friends and clients who have said, “I didn’t know I had fibroids until my 6-week confirmation pregnancy appointment.”

What happened to me was that actually, I was trying to conceive. I got married at 26. We waited a year before we were serious about trying and then the year we were trying to conceive, nothing was happening. Through a series of tests, I found out that I had fibroids. I had multiple fibroids. It was a wake-up call because, for years, I had been experiencing extremely heavy periods. I wasn’t the girl who got cramps, but I was the girl who literally hemorrhaged every month. 

And so I was very grateful to find out that I had the fibroids because I had an answer to the issues that I was facing. After some time, I decided that I was going to surgically remove them. Granted, every woman who has fibroids may treat them differently, but one of the more common ways of dealing with fibroids is to do surgery, which is called a myomectomy. 

Another way that someone may deal with fibroids is to do a hysterectomy, but most women who opt for a myomectomy are trying to preserve their fertility. That’s what I wanted to do, obviously. I was still young and was still hoping to get pregnant. Thankfully, I was a pretty good candidate for a laparoscopic myomectomy. 

I don’t want to get into the weeds but there are different types of myomectomies that you can do. The laparoscopic myomectomy is known to be minimally invasive whereas others such as an abdominal myomectomy are where they cut your uterus very much like a C-section and they remove the fibroids. Instead of removing a baby, they are removing the fibroid. Thankfully, I didn’t have to have such an extensive surgery as the abdominal myomectomy. 

Meagan: That’s actually what my tax lady just had– that exact surgery. 

Mabel: Really? Yeah. Yeah. 

Meagan: Uh-huh. 

Mabel: Yeah. 

Julie: Our tax lady, thank you very much. 

Meagan: Sorry, yes. Our tax lady. Yes. And you know, she is worried that she will never be able to have a vaginal birth because the doctor said, “Just to let you know if you do get pregnant in the future, it’s C-sections from here on out.”

Mabel: That is very, very and I wouldn’t even say very common. That is the feedback that every woman who goes through a myomectomy will receive. It doesn’t matter how invasive her procedure was. It doesn’t matter how many fibroids they removed. It doesn’t matter how well her recovery was. Usually for a woman who goes through a myomectomy, if she ends up getting pregnant thereafter, she will be counseled to have a C-section at 37 weeks. 

The concern for that is uterine rupture, very much like a C-section. Their concern is that because we have gone into your uterus and we have tampered with it more or less if you are doing an abdominal myomectomy, that’s one big incision. If you are doing a laparoscopic myomectomy like mine, there are these tiny little cuts into the uterus. They cut into the uterus and they take pieces of the fibroid out bit by bit. 

There are different ways to remove fibroids; however, it is a uterine procedure and every woman is different. Every woman’s experience is different. Some women have multiple fibroids. Some women have one. Some women have fibroids inside the uterine cavities. Some women have it within the wall or outside the wall. It really varies. 

And so I think a blanket response to avoid uterine rupture is to just go on and have a planned C-section at 37 weeks. Like I said, I was happy I was getting the laparoscopic myomectomy because when I was doing my research beforehand, all the research that I found said that women who had a laparoscopic myomectomy were good candidates for having a vaginal birth thereafter if they were treated as if they were a VBAC patient. 

In my head at that time, I was like, “Well, this is great. I am going to have this surgery and I am going to have my vaginal birth.” But when I went to one of my post-op appointments to talk about the procedure, my surgeon at the time told me that I had to have a C-section at 37 weeks. Something told me not to push it with her because I felt that, “Okay. She is my surgeon who did the surgery. She doesn’t necessarily have to be the OB that delivers my babies.”

So when she told me, I just took it in but in the back of my mind I thought, “I have a lot of work to do.” That was in the sense of finding a supportive provider. Mind you, I was not pregnant at this time, but I knew that when the time came for me to be pregnant, I wanted someone who was confident and supportive of me having this type of delivery. 

Also at that time, because I had gone through so much with the fibroids, I was young and I realized that I didn’t know much about women’s health. I didn’t know much about pregnancy and childbirth. I didn’t know anything outside of what I was experiencing currently, so I took it upon myself to learn everything that I could. I actually trained as a doula at that time because everything I was learning was fascinating to me, and then also I realized that what I was going through was quite unique and it was not going to be easy. 

I felt that I had to be confident with my understanding of birth and pregnancy so that I could advocate for myself better. Also at that time, I felt that because nobody that I knew and nothing on the internet pointed me to anybody else who had a vaginal birth after a myomectomy, I just took it upon myself to be the one. So I just was like, “Okay. If ever I get pregnant and I have a vaginal birth, I am going to shout it from the mountain tops and tell everybody what I did, how I did it–”

Julie: Yeah!

Mabel: Yeah, so if anyone is listening to this and they have heard my story on another birth podcast, it’s not that I’m boasting, it’s that I believe that education and anecdotal evidence is just as valuable as evidence-based information. And so I learned about VBAC. I actually started learning about childbirth by researching VBAC because I looked at myself as pretty much a VBAC patient or individual. I wasn’t pregnant, but I just felt that when the time came, I had to look at myself like a VBAC person. 

I read a lot of research and I will share a lot of that at the end, but from what I have gathered over the past five years is that the risk of rupture for a woman who pursues a vaginal birth after a myomectomy is anywhere between .4% to 1.7%. You can imagine that with such a low risk of rupture, you would think doctors would be comfortable or okay with supporting women to have a vaginal birth, but what I found out during that time was that most doctors are not supportive of VBAC, so it was going to be quite impossible for me to find another provider who would be supportive of a VBAM. 

I went on the ICAN website and at the time, they had a list of providers in this DMV area, and they had a list of all the providers and their C-section rates. They don’t have that anymore, but at that time they did. And so what I did is I went down the list and I chose providers who had a rate of 20% or lower and I just wrote it down in a notebook. I was making phone calls, then I would make appointments and I would go to the offices. 

And one after one, all of them barely gave me two minutes to even get the words out of my mouth. Once they heard what I was talking about and saw my report, they were like, “No.” I went to a dozen providers within a one-year span. Again, I wasn’t pregnant but I knew that when the time came, I needed support and they all told me, “No.”

I was extremely defeated, but I had a mentor. She was my doula trainer and she gave me the name of one provider. She said, “Just go to him. He is really cool. He has a pretty low C-section rate. I know him personally. Maybe he will support you.” And I went. I had an appointment with him and he did. He said, “I have never done this before, but I looked at your report and I feel like it’s worth a try.”

Meagan: Wow, that’s awesome. 

Mabel: Yeah. It was amazing after getting all of those “No’s” to finally have someone listen and hear me. 

Meagan: Yeah. I totally get it. That happened to me. I went to 12 doctors also and everyone was like, “You can try. I wouldn’t.” To find that doctor to say, “You know what? Yeah. I’ll support you in this. Let’s do it.” It is so amazing.

Mabel: It really is. It’s a turning point and I know we talk a lot about supportive providers. I’ll circle back on that, but the freedom you feel when you have a doctor that you respect and it’s reciprocated goes so far. 

Meagan: Mhmm.

Mabel: I always say that appointment was the turning point in my trying to conceive journey because I got pregnant the month after. This is for someone who had been trying to get pregnant for five years. It was like God was like, “Okay. This is your doctor. Now it’s time.”

Julie: Yes. 

Mabel: I just think it was very serendipitous. I am just so grateful for him. 

Julie: It was meant to be. 

Mabel: But I did. I got pregnant. Yeah, it was. I got pregnant and y’all, I had a great pregnancy. I was happy. I felt beautiful. I felt sexy. I was my strongest. I just loved being pregnant. It was probably one of the best times of my life. At around 26 weeks though, my doctor whom I love so much died. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh!

Julie: Oh my gosh!

Mabel: He did. He had a heart attack and he died. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Mabel: It was a huge blow for me not just because this was someone that I really leaned on for my dream delivery, but he was also a very, very well-respected and well-known OBGYN in this area. And so it was a huge blow for the community. Not just me, but everyone else and every woman who just wanted great, quality care. We lost a giant in the birth world. 

Meagan: Oh yeah. 

Mabel: So it was a blow for me because I didn’t know what to do. 

Meagan: Right. 

Mabel: I decided to just forge on. At that point, once I knew that he supported me, there was nothing anyone else could say. So even if the other doctors in the practice started to show any type of hesitancy, it went over my head because I was like, “Dr. Gonzalez said he was going to support me. I don’t care what y’all say.” I was very stubborn. 

However, they weren’t pushy. They didn’t ever talk about a C-section or anything, but the vibe was very different in the office. I decided to switch over to a midwife and OB practice. My doula suggested it and I gave it a shot. I had heard about midwives and obviously, I was trained as a doula so I was familiar with midwifery care, but because of my unique history of having a myomectomy, I just didn’t see myself as eligible to be with a midwife if I could put it that way. 

Meagan: No yeah, that totally makes sense though because there are a lot of people who rule themselves out of midwifery care. They are totally qualified for midwifery care, but they don’t think so. 

Mabel: Yeah, it’s so true. Even at that time, I don’t think I realized that there were hospital-based midwives. I had learned and known about birth centers and home birth, but I had never interacted with a hospital-based midwife. I would say it all aligned up accordingly because when I did switch over to that practice, I was 36 weeks. I was very far along in my pregnancy. 

They also told me, they were like, “Hey, look. We usually wouldn’t do this. We are only doing this because we respect your doctor, Dr. Gonzalez.” So I had a feeling that if it was the other way around– if it wasn’t for him, I don’t think I would have found anybody in this area. 

So they took me in as a late transfer and at that point in my pregnancy, I was so firm on having a vaginal birth that I called the shots. I went to my appointment with all of the research that I had and I was like, “If you have any questions, you can read these articles. I am not going to talk about this.”

Meagan: Good for you. 

Mabel: I was very, not annoying, but I just felt like at that point in my pregnancy, I didn’t have time for any negative energy. Not from my inner circle and not from my medical team. They weren’t pushy but they had their opinions on things. Long story short, the agreement we came upon was that I refused to be induced because I didn’t want anything to lead to a higher risk of rupture. I was also diagnosed with gestational diabetes during my pregnancy and I had done my research. I had done my own risk assessment and I felt that if my diabetes was well controlled, I should be able to go past my due date. That was a big thing for me, having the freedom and having the respect to go past my due date without any pressure from my birth team. And they agreed. 

I made it to 40 weeks and eventually, at 40 weeks and 6 days, I went into labor.

I will honestly say that it was a very straightforward labor. I went into labor in the middle of the night. I labored at home with my doula for hours. I think my first contraction was at 4:00 a.m. and I was finally ready to go to the hospital at 4:00 p.m. When I got admitted, I was 5 centimeters and I just continued to labor in our labor and delivery room. 

I did all the things. I was on the peanut ball and on the birth ball and doing all the positions. I was able to negotiate to have intermittent monitoring. They let me on and off the monitors every 40 minutes or so. And so I really, I am just really grateful I had a team that gave me the space to do things my way, despite how unique my uterine history was.

At around 9 centimeters, by this time– I got admitted to the hospital at 4:00 p.m– I decided to get the epidural at around 1:30 a.m. the next day. I had labored for a long, long time and I was just so exhausted. They checked me. They said I was 9 and baby hadn’t descended much and so I opted for the epidural to rest. It was the best decision for me. I took a nap maybe for a few hours and when I woke up, it was time to push. 

I pushed for about two hours and my son was born. I tell you, the minute he came out, I felt like my brain just exploded. We always say, “My mind was blown.” Literally, my mind was blown. I could not believe that for so long, I was told that vaginal birth was never an option for me, that my uterus was going to be destroyed and that I couldn’t do it and that I shouldn’t do it, and then finally, here comes this child out of me. I was like, “I can’t believe I almost missed out on this opportunity. I can’t believe that someone almost took this from me because they had never done it before.” Right? 

We call myomectomy a special scar. There are other special scars, right? Like classical, T-inverted, J-incision, and a myomectomy is one of them as well. I’m not here on this podcast to tell every person who has had a special scar that they should go and run out and have a vaginal birth. That’s not what I’m saying. But what I am saying is that because many times the literature is– there’s not a lot of it, right? So because there is very minimal research done on this topic, a lot of us are just categorized as extremely high-risk and it’s not even worth it for us to go on to even pursue a vaginal birth.  

I feel like the whole process of leading me to the birth of my first son was really a lesson on self-education and self-advocacy. I know that I am supposed to be sharing my birth story, but this is really just about the work that it took for me to have this vaginal birth because, to be honest, my birth story is not any more special than the next woman who has had a vaginal birth. But what it is, is understanding and believing in physiological birth with the hopes that your body will do the work that it is intended to do despite the fact that it has gone through surgery. And so at that moment when my son was born, I was just like, “There is nothing anyone can tell me that I can’t do.”

The fact that I had this child after a myomectomy, after multiple fibroids, after such a hard trying to conceive journey, and it was pretty much a seamless delivery, I was so, so, so proud of myself and I truly felt empowered at that moment. 

He was born and he was beautiful, and he was big. He was 9 pounds, 6 ounces and I am just so happy that I gave myself that chance to have the opportunity to experience a vaginal birth. I will say that birth is not without risk. VBAC is not without risk and the same thing for vaginal birth after myomectomy. After I had delivered him and my body was ready to deliver the placenta, I experienced a hemorrhage and it was quite a severe hemorrhage. It was something that personally blindsided me. After all the research I was doing, I had never really read about things like that. So it was scary. But it was handled swiftly and it was handled very well. I believe I was in the right place and in the right environment to help my body recover immediately after. 

And so I did have a hemorrhage and I personally will say that I can’t attest it to the myomectomy. It could have been a number of factors as to why I hemorrhaged. Thankfully, through a variety of tools, they were able to manage the hemorrhage and I was able to tend to my baby and breastfeed as soon as possible. I went home within the usual time frame for a vaginal birth. 

After that delivery and that experience, I was so thrilled and empowered by that experience that I told my husband that if I had the opportunity to do it again that I would love to do it at home or at a birth center. So for my second, I had my second son last year. I pursued a birth center delivery. Again, I had a beautiful and wonderful pregnancy, very straightforward. We did talk about my risk of hemorrhage, and so we came up with a plan as to how to actively manage a hemorrhage, but for my second, again, my body went into labor at 39 weeks. I labored for a couple of days, and then finally it was go-time. I think I had about three hours of active labor and he was born at the birthing center. With him, I had a water birth.

And so just looking at the whole scheme, the whole experience of being pregnant twice, having two vaginal births after a myomectomy, it makes me feel that for anyone who is seeking a vaginal birth after any uterine procedure whether it is a C-section or a myomectomy, there is a lot of work that has to be done emotionally and mentally, but it is very possible. I am so sorry when I hear other women who have had a myomectomy be told immediately that they have to have a C-section because we know what that language does, that terminology of “have to”. It makes us feel that we are incapable, that birth is absolutely dangerous for us and it’s not true. 

There is a difference between absolute and relative risk and for me, I leaned on the relative risk and I succeeded. For my second born, even though I did not hemorrhage with him, I did have issues with delivering my placenta, and so even though his birth was beautiful and perfect, I did have to get transferred to the hospital to remove my placenta which actually came out quite easily when I got there. But it took some time when I was at the birth center, so we transferred over to the hospital to deliver the placenta.

Both deliveries were quite traumatic to my body. Not to me emotionally, but for my body, it was a very traumatic experience. But I like to talk about these things because I think transparency is important, and then I also say this with the understanding that just because it happened to me doesn’t mean it’s going to happen to you. I don’t think that just because we hear other women go through some unique experience that it should deter you from pursuing your goal. I think we are all capable of assessing our own risks and making the right decisions that are important to us. I could go on and on about this.

Meagan: No, I love it.

Julie: We are just sitting here soaking it all in.

Meagan: But it really is, it’s such an important thing to remember that just because someone says this, it doesn’t mean it’s not right for you, and then just because someone had a really good, positive experience doesn’t mean it’s going to be your experience either. It’s so hard. It’s just how we have to go through life in all things because everyone is different. Everyone has a different circumstance. Everyone has a different body, everything. Even though one pregnancy goes one way doesn’t mean the next pregnancy is going to go the other. And so it’s just so important to remember that. But I just love how you fought for what you felt was right for you because that is a really, really, really hard thing to do. Like, a really hard thing to do.

Mabel: Oh yeah. It is.

Meagan: Yes, and then to have such a traumatic experience like, “What the heck just happened? I just lost my doctor and the support that I was getting after looking for so long.” That had to just have shaken you.

Mabel: Oh gosh.

Meagan: So I am just so proud of you.

Mabel: Thank you. You two are doulas. I am a doula too, so this is kind of going into the doula speak.

Julie: Yep.

Mabel: As doulas, especially for our VBAC clients, we stress so heavily finding a supportive provider. We do. We make it almost seem as though if you don’t have one, good luck to you, which, actually for me over the years, not just with my experience but with others and my clients, I have come to realize that not every VBAC hopeful is going to find a supportive provider. 

You have to come to terms and accept the fact that your doctor just may not support you. They may say or do things to deter you from making that decision, but despite that, you must press on anyway. And for me, especially when Dr. Gonzales died, at that point, I could’ve just been like, “Well, you know. I tried.” But at that point, I was like, “I’m going to have this baby whether he is alive or not. I’m going to have this a baby whether he is on call or not,” because we know that happens too. You can get somebody else and everything seems like a chaotic event. That’s something that I really feel personally about is that even if you don’t have a supportive provider, you still have the personal responsibility to know your rights and to know your options for your VBAC birth. You can’t lean on your doctor for the decisions that are only for you to make. That’s how I pursued my birth experience. 

That’s almost how I lead with my clients in the sense that we are just going to gather all of the information that we can get and use that as a decision as a means to make a decision. Of course, your doctor may say or do certain things and you may agree or disagree, but at the end of the day, this is about you. This is about you and your baby and your body and it’s going to be up to you to make up your mind to press on or to allow all of the negative energy or all of the conflicting information to haze your view.

I feel that for me, I am no more special than the next person. I’m not. It’s not like I got lucky. It’s not that I am super smart, it’s just that I made up my mind. I made up my mind and I hope that for anyone listening to this that if you are ever unsure or if you feel like, “Oh, my partner doesn’t support me” or “My mother-in-law says this” or “My doctor doesn’t tolerate me,” you need to make up your mind and then from there, you move forward. If you need to hire a doula, if you need to take 20 different birth classes, if you need to read all of the books, if you need to pray, if you need to replay all of the podcasts, you do what it takes to get to where you need to be. 

Even if the outcome varies from what you were hoping for, at least you can say you did everything you could. And that’s how I forged on for this delivery experience because I didn’t have– there’s nobody on YouTube. There’s nobody on Google. There’s nobody in all of the birth clubs on Baby Sector. There’s no podcast of anybody who has had a vaginal birth after a myomectomy. However, I know it’s been done. 

There’s no way that they could have done all of that research. There were women that had to be a part of that research. So even if you don’t know anybody in your life or your inner circle who is pursuing a VBAC or a VBAM, it doesn’t mean that it can’t be done. I think that’s how I looked at it like, “Okay. I don’t have anybody that I can use as a resource or as a reference, but I know that I am not an anomaly and I also know that I am not asking for too much. I am not asking for a vaginal birth. I’m asking for support. I’m asking you to hear me. I’m asking you to give me time. I’m asking you to let my body do the work. Let my body do the work instead of you dictating what you think my body should do.”

I don’t think it’s too much to say that if I don’t want another surgery, I don’t want another surgery. I think that’s the part that blew my mind when I started learning about advocating for myself. The fact that my pursuit was not about what my body was able to do. It wasn’t about my body’s ability. At the core of it, it came down to liability. What are these hospitals and doctors liable to? It’s easier and “safer” for them to do a C-section than to let my body have a trial of labor, but nobody was telling me about the risk of a C-section. Nobody told me the risk of having a C-section at 37 weeks. They just told me I had to have one. If I hemorrhaged with vaginal birth, God knows what could have happened with a C-section, but nobody told me about that.

So a lot of these things boiled down to pulling what you understand about birth and what you have read as the evidence but then also believing in anecdotal evidence. I believe that a woman’s experience is just as viable as evidence and as something that I have found on a Google search. This is just how I approached my birth. And I mean, I’m sorry. I feel like I am on a soapbox or something. 

Julie: No, are you kidding me? I am sitting here listening to you and I am just like, “Yes!” I have had goosebumps for days over here. Oh my gosh. I am just like, “Do you want a job?” Because I would love to just sit and listen to you go on and on about all of the things you are talking about. About how you’re not asking for a vaginal birth, you’re just asking to be supported and you are just asking for somebody to listen to you and let you have things the way you want to experience them. Obviously, there are caveats that go in there that we want your safety and we want you to be healthy and everything like that but you just want somebody to support you and believe in you. That just gave me so many chills. I just loved it. 

Mabel: Yeah. There’s no reason why we should have such a low VBAC rate in this country. Absolutely not. Knowing how successful the majority of women should be, there is no reason why we should have a 9-10% VBAC rate in this country. Learning about VBAC helped me to realize that this is not about the vaginal aspect. This is about women’s rights if we really wanted to get to the core of it. This is about a woman’s right to make an informed decision or to make an informed refusal. And unfortunately, we are looked down upon if we refuse what our doctors or midwives or whatever the medical team says. And so for me, of course, I was like, “No,” and I was looked at like I was crazy. How dare you want to go against our hospital’s protocol. But when it comes down to it, I had the right to do that. 

It’s almost like if a woman has breast cancer and you tell that woman, “Hey. These are all of your options. You can go do this surgery. You can take this medication or you can do nothing.” If that woman said, “I don’t want to do anything,” it is not that doctor’s place to do and say everything to coerce her or to scare her into changing her mind. It’s not the doctor’s place to do that because you have given her the information. You have given her the risks and the benefits of her options for treatment and if she decides to do something contrary to what you have decided for her, then you have to respect that and the same thing goes for VBAC. If you tell this woman, “Hey, these are all of your risks and benefits. These are all the things,” and she says, “You know what? I still want to pursue a VBAC,” it is wrong to apply every fear tactic and every coercion and every barrier to make that woman comply with what you want. That’s what is going on in America today and that’s why we have such terrible outcomes. 

I am speaking this as a black woman, right? A black woman who is highly susceptible to fibroids, a black woman who is highly susceptible to maternal mortality, a black woman where in America, black women have the highest rate of C-section. We do. We also have the highest rate of poor outcomes, not just maternal mortality but even neonatal mortality. So this is bigger than what anybody can think about. This is really coming down to the core of what type of care are we giving women? Are we just giving everyone the run-of-the-mill care or are we individualizing it according to this woman’s needs? Obviously, it’s not the latter. If we were individualizing maternal healthcare, we would see better outcomes. We would see more VBACs. We would see fewer hemorrhages. We would see less death. 

But until that day comes, you as a woman can’t go into birth blindly. You can’t go into VBAC blindly. You can’t go into your first birth blindly. You have to have your eyes, ears, heart, and mind open because a lot of things can be unpredictable, but I’ll tell you, it’s not birth. Birth isn’t as unpredictable as everyone says. Usually, what makes it unpredictable are a lot of the factors that our medical system imposes on us. So I don’t know. I’m going to stop talking because I’m getting hot, but I had to say this. 

Julie: No, I love it. 

Mabel: I do say this by saying that vaginal birth after myomectomy is possible. It is. I had one. I know many women have had one. I am a part of a special scars group and our rate of vaginal birth after myomectomy is quite high. For the women who did not have a vaginal birth, it was not due to uterine rupture. So I’m saying that for the small number of women who have pursued vaginal birth after myomectomy, they either had the vaginal birth or they had a C-section but it was not related to rupture. 

I had even counseled other women who reached out to me and a number of those women have gone on to have vaginal births. I have had three clients who hired me. They had a myomectomy and they went on to have a vaginal birth. A couple of them have even had unmedicated vaginal births for their first child. So I feel like anything is possible if you have the support and the heart to go for it. 

Julie: I absolutely love that. You are 100% right. You had a lot of things working against you. You had the myomectomy. You had provider switching. You had to change providers near the end of your pregnancy and you’re dealing with a unique type of a special scar which, yes, plug in for the Special Scars Facebook Group page, and the website is specialscars.org. Like you said, as a black woman birthing in America, your Cesarean rate is four times as high. You are two to three times more likely to die in childbirth. Those are things that are inherently wrong, frankly, just wrong with our medical system right now. 

I absolutely love that you kept saying in your story that there’s nothing special about you, but I disagree 110%. I think that everything about you is special and I am just so grateful. I know Meagan is going to talk in just a minute, but I just wanted to thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story today because you are an incredible woman. Are you still practicing as a doula? 

Mabel: I am, but this is my last year practicing because yes, I am going back to school to be a midwife. 

Meagan: Yay!

Julie: Yes. We need more. 

Meagan: I was going to say, “To be a midwife!”

Julie: Yeah, yeah. 

Meagan: Oh, that makes me so happy. Seriously though, you are going to change your birth community. You are going to completely change your birth community. 

Julie: Absolutely. 

Meagan: You are mind-blowing. I got the chills listening to you. Like Julie said, you could go on and on and on. 

Julie: We would just eat you all up. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: We are eating all of your words up. 

Meagan: There’s not one second that I would be like, “Oh my gosh, this chick is talking forever.” Nope. I’d be like, “Give me more. Keep talking.” You are amazing. 

Mabel: Oh my gosh, no.  

Meagan: You are so awesome. So awesome. And same as Julie, I am so grateful that you could be on the podcast and share this story because like I said, we have people writing us asking and saying, “We want a vaginal birth. Is this possible? Is this possible at all?”

Seriously, so, so happy for you.

Mabel: Yeah. This is not your typical birth story podcast. I guess the flow of this conversation isn’t like the others but I do hope for anyone who’s listening if ever they had a question or inquiry or if they even just wanted to chat, I do offer consultations. Even though I won’t be practicing as a doula for a while, I am still available in different ways. 

Julie: Absolutely. How can people contact you? 

Mabel: Yeah. You can reach out to me. I am very active on Instagram. The name of my business is Within Her Birth Services. You can find me on Instagram @withinherbirthservices and through that platform, you can find my email address or DM me. Also, you can check me out at www.withinherbirthservices.com. So yeah, that’s how you can find me. 

Julie: Perfect. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, amazing. Thank you so much, seriously. Seriously. 

Julie: Yeah, thank you. 

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Lindsay’s first birth was a planned home birth which ultimately resulted in a hospital transfer and emergency C-section. She was left feeling unprepared, unheard, and committed to fighting for a VBAC next time. 

Lindsay worked for months preparing for a VBAC both physically and emotionally. Once labor started, she was coping extremely well with her intense contractions. She arrived at the hospital at 10 centimeters, ready to have her baby!

Until…her contractions completely stopped. Lindsay shares with us how she overcame ultimate doubt when pushing continued for over four hours. 

Doubt can creep in at any time on your VBAC journey. Trust yourself and your preparation. Lean into your supportive birth team. We know you can do this!

Additional links

The VBAC Link Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome, welcome. This is Women of Strength Wednesday and you are tuned in to The VBAC Link podcast with Julie and Meagan and our special guest, Lindsay, today. We were actually just chitchatting a little bit before we pressed record about different providers and how they influence birth outcomes. Sometimes you will have a provider who is surprisingly more supportive than you would expect them to be and vice versa, right? So we are going to talk about that and all the different parts of Lindsay’s story in a little bit. 

Before we do that though, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.

Review of the Week

Meagan: Yes I do. This is from RokFray and it says “Getting VBAC Ready. This podcast has been inspiring and motivational to me as I prepare for a VBAC with my fourth baby. Listening to each of these stories and realizing that through listening I have learned how to advocate for myself and my family has been a true blessing. Thank you!”

And I just want to say thank you to RokFray for sharing your review. Julie and I say it all the time. We love your reviews. We truly mean it. And honestly, we are running out of some reviews because we haven’t been recording for so long. We haven’t had a ton of reviews here coming in and so we would love some new, fresh reviews so we can read them on future podcasts.

Julie: You never know. Maybe next week, we will read yours.

Meagan: Yep.

Julie: I love it. I always remember that time when somebody was Review of the Week and they posted on their Instagram. Well, I guess it has happened a couple of times, but it just makes me happy. Getting reviews, reading them, and everyone letting us know how we have been helping you so thank you, thank you. It means a lot to us.

Lindsay’s Story

Julie: All right. Let’s get to it. We have Lindsay with us today. Lindsay is an Advertising Account Director and a mom of two. She loves being a mom and thinks bringing babies earthside is one of the most surreal experiences that we have as mothers. “Childbirth is the best lesson a mother can experience,” she says. “A lot is out of our control, so plan for the worst and hope for the best.” 

Do you know what that reminds me of? That reminds me of when I was in the military. Plan for the worst and hope for the best because I don’t know if anybody out there listening is in the military, or a military spouse, or has ever been in the military, but you know that whenever things can go wrong if there is a possibility, then it probably will go wrong. So you have got to just kind of expect not very much, but hope for great things. That just reminded me of that when I was just reading your bio. Lindsay. But I like that sentiment because you can prepare for all of the things, right? You can prepare for all of the outcomes, but always hope for and even expect the best outcomes as well. So I love that.

But Lindsay, why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit more and share your story with us?

Lindsay: awesome. Thanks so much, Julie. So I will start with my pregnancy and the birth of my son which was my first C-section. It took us a while to get pregnant with my son. We thought that it was going to be quite simple and it turns out it wasn’t. So with a little bit of help from a fertility specialist, we successfully got pregnant. We were so excited and he recommended that we be handed over to the care of midwives. I had a low-risk pregnancy. I was in great shape, healthy, and a strong BMI, so he felt like this would be the best care provider for what I needed. And then also with my style, he loved that and recommended that we have someone who would be really guiding throughout.

He also recommended that I ask them about homebirth, which was probably unexpected for most coming from more of the traditional Western medicine perspective. So we started on with the midwives. We loved them instantly and homebirth was brought up pretty early on. And so we had planned for a homebirth and in this, my biggest learning was that we really focused on the homebirth and the realities of a homebirth. We didn’t necessarily talk about labor preparation.

So I had read Ina May Gaskin’s Guide to Childbirth and I had chatted with friends who had gone through labor, especially in natural labor and delivery, and so I felt like I was prepared enough until I was 40 weeks pregnant– 40 weeks, 4 days exactly– and my water broke. It was the slow leak. We confirmed that the amniotic sac ruptured. 

I was slowly leaking fluid, but I wasn’t under stress and baby’s heart rate was fine, so we made a little bit of a plan. If I hadn’t gone into labor in 24 hours, then I would go in to the hospital and we would do an induction. If I did go into labor naturally, then I would continue on with a planned homebirth.

So we went home with the instruction to just enjoy each other‘s company and try to wind down. It was really hitting home that this was our last moment where we would have just the two of us and our dog in this house. And so we were anxious, excited, nervous and that was when I started feeling the, “Oh my god. I wonder what labor feels like.” 

At 9:30 p.m., I had my first contraction. It was a very traditional wave. I felt the build. I felt the release. I went through the motions of like, “Okay. I can handle this,” and then quickly let my husband know that, “Okay, so labor is starting.” My mom was coming over and we were prepared for what was about to come. I gave both of them the call sheet for the midwives and we went over the birth plan and were feeling good.

Within an hour, I had all back labor, no break between contractions, was really nauseous, and something just didn’t feel right. I kept saying to my husband and my mom like, “We need to call the midwife. We need to call the midwife,” and they were just calm and steady like, “Lindsay, you are doing great. It’s okay.” And at that point, my mom said, “I think you are having back labor–”

Meagan: Mhmm

Lindsay: “–based on the fact that you don’t have any breaks and it’s just back-to-back.” I had been given the instructions to not go in the water, and so for me, that meant I shouldn’t even be standing in the shower. I was a very cautious first-time laborer and after some pretty frantic, “Call the midwife! Call the midwives!”, my mom and husband in fact called the midwives and we agreed to do a home visit. They were going to come and check on me and likely transfer me to the hospital just because I was having a hard time managing the pain.

And so my midwives came over and checked me. I was only about 5 centimeters dilated. I was having a really hard time managing the pain. It just goes back to total unpreparedness. I had read one book and had some conversations, but I don’t think I necessarily understood the different ways that labor can feel. The thought of it being exclusively in my back was such a foreign concept to me and really unbearable.

We drove to the hospital which was less than five minutes away. My husband was asking me on the way there like, “You are going to do up your seatbelt right?” I could barely sit down. I am not concerned about my seatbelt. And so we get to the hospital in the wee hours of the morning. It’s about 3:00 a.m. and we were waiting now for an epidural.

I am laboring, very vocal, have a lot of discomfort, and am still a little bit unsure if this is normal, where I am feeling it, and not being provided with a lot of reassurance that I am doing great and that this is normal. And so now at this point, I am like a little bit panicked like, “This is a foreign feeling. I don’t know what’s going on. I feel totally unheard and I also feel voiceless. I’m asking questions and I just feel like I am not really being given reassurance and direction.”

Of course, my husband being a first-time dad and first time witnessing labor is also a little bit of a deer in the headlights like, “What is happening? Is my wife okay and is this normal?” And so an hour in, we start asking, “Where is the epidural? Where is the anesthesiologist? We need some sort of pain meds.” My approach was an epidural or bust.

I didn’t want to take fentanyl or laughing gas unnecessarily. I would rather just go for the good stuff and get the epidural. I don’t tolerate pain medication well, and so I was apprehensive about the effects that it would have on me but also recognized that I was feeling like it was an out-of-body experience and like I just couldn’t handle this. I did not have confidence in myself.

So around 4:30, it was like one of those lightbulb moments where I was like, “My massage therapist said if I feel back labor, ask for the bee stings,” which is sterile water injections in my low back.

Meagan: Oh yes.

Lindsay: It was the first time I was able to really advocate for myself in labor. I was like, “Can I get a sterile water injection? I will take the bee stings,” which are definitely a little bit more aggressive than a bee sting. I must have just been stung by really a really lightweight bee in the past.

But I got the sterile water injection and instantly felt relief. At that moment, I was like, “Man, I can handle this. I feel really good about now.” I started to feel proper contractions and a proper wave inching closer to 5:00 and so at that point, I am like, “Okay. I am handling this well.” I suddenly felt the urge to bear down. And so I went to the washroom and as I am sitting I am like, “It feels like I have to poop.” And so my midwife– I am vocalizing this and she is like, “Okay. Let’s give you a quick check,” and so at that point, she was like, “Listen. The anesthesiologist is about to walk in.” She gave me a check and I was 8 centimeters.

Meagan: Wow.

Lindsay: And so she said, “You are at the cusp and so you either get the epidural now or you don’t get it at all.” I was just blindly looking at her for advice and guidance and I was like, “I guess I think I should get it,” and she was like, “I think that is a good decision.” I got the epidural and I felt relief. But going back to preparedness and not feeling heard, at that point, being prepared– I was not prepared for an epidural. 

And so as I am leaning over my husband, he, in turn, was also not prepared. He was like, “I may pass out. That is a very large needle.” I was just like, “Just stick it in me. I need to feel some sort of relief.” As soon as the effects of the epidural kicked in, suddenly I felt like, “There is no turning back. I have just made a horrible decision.” Maybe I was handling labor okay and I was starting to feel some relief. I was just on the cusp of transition because as soon as I had the epidural, I had the hormone shakes and the sweats, and so I was transitioning naturally anyways. The feeling of defeat was really stinking in.

At 5:30 and the direction was, “Rest. You need to sleep and we are just going to flip you on a peanut ball side to side.” So every 30 minutes, my husband and my midwife would wake me up and flip me. It was just side to side with the peanut ball until about 7:00 a.m. At that point, I was 10 centimeters dilated and they decided to just let me continue resting. I felt nothing, so I didn’t feel the urge to push. They said, “Around 10:00-11:00, we will check in and you can start pushing at that point.”

So at that point, they come in and say, “Okay. You need to start pushing.” The piece I missed in this was that my mom and dad had come to the hospital to give my husband some relief so that he could go and have a coffee and a bite to eat because keep in mind, we weren’t planning for a hospital birth, so we were really not prepared. We had a small hospital bag packed and that was about it. 

My dad is asking my midwife, “What if she can’t push this baby out?” and he is kind of leading the horse like, “What is going on? Is there something happening with her or with the baby? What’s the next step?” They were like, “No, no. She has had an epidural. Even if this baby is in a bad position, she can push it out.” And this was the first moment where I heard the baby was in a bad position.

Meagan: Yeah. No one said anything.

Lindsay: No one said anything and I didn’t realize that my water breaking early was likely due to an OP baby. And again, it was just a lack of communication or something that I wasn’t aware of. My dad keeps asking, “What if the baby is turned a little bit?” or “What if the baby is OP?” Like, “Nope. Nope. She’s had an epidural. She can push this baby out okay.”

So we have now gone from homebirth to hospital to feeling really in the dark and really unclear about what’s happening. I had this epidural that I am deeply regretting at this point, but there’s no turning back and it’s time to start pushing and I feel absolutely nothing. And so I push for a couple of hours. No headway is being made. 

At this point, there is a change in the midwife team so I am with a different midwife and she said, “I’m just going to step out of the room,” looking to my husband and I. “When you see a contraction on the monitor, continue to push. Continue to breathe through it and I will be back.”

About 15-20 minutes later, which felt like a lot longer, she came back with the OBGYN on call. He, in a very flat and direct way, said, “You are spiking a fever. The baby’s heart rate is dipping and your heart rate is dropping.” I have incredibly low blood pressure to begin with. So he said, “These three factors, coupled with the likelihood that your baby is OP– we are bringing you in for a C-section.” I was absolutely gutted.

Meagan: Was it like, “Hey, this is why I think a C-section is needed” or it was it like, “This is what we are doing.” Did you feel like you had an option? Do you know what I mean

Lindsay: Yeah. So like, yeah. Totally, totally. So I’m sure you can see two first-time parents who have from a homebirth to now being a hospital to suddenly being told they are having a C-section, which we know absolutely nothing about other than it was a major abdominal surgery.

Meagan: Yeah.

Lindsay: And so I’m sobbing saying, “Can we turn off the epidural? Can we bring down the epidural even a little bit? Rip it out of my vein,” beause I have no concept of how it works, right? My husband is saying, “Can she just push for another 30 minutes?” And very flat, he was just like, “No. The difference in time is five minutes to talk about it now and to open you up in here versus bringing you into the OR.”

Meagan: Whoa.

Lindsay: And so again, my husband and I were just looking at him. There was really no other option that was presented to us at least. We were grasping at straws. He just again reiterated very calmly, “I understand that this is not what you wanted, but we need to get this baby out now.” 

And so they bring us to the OR. My husband is a wreck. We haven’t been prepped for this procedure, so he is waiting as I am signing forms. This amazing nurse is wiping my tears so that I can somewhat sign blindly. It’s about 2:00ish in the afternoon. We get into the OR. We had gone from a dark room with no windows and little candles everywhere to this stark, sterile, bright light environment. A different anesthesiologist came in. The energy was so nonchalant in comparison to the fear and grief that my husband and I were feeling. 

The anesthesiologist was phenomenal. He spoke to us throughout the entire C-section at every stage. He reassured us off the top by saying, “My wife has had two C-sections beyond seeing this through my job on a day-to-day basis. I know exactly what’s going to happen. I will talk to you through this.”

And so he talked us through it. He held my shoulder. My husband held my hand. By this point, I am maxed out on my epidural. I can feel my left side. It was really traumatic beyond just the flow of how the birth went, but also being in this very sterile environment and feeling a lot of what was happening.

But again, the anesthesiologist just was so wonderful, coaching us through it and really, I’m sure he could sense our fear. My sweet little boy came out and was put to my face. I turned and I was like, “I think I’m going to throw up. I am super nauseous.” I am out of it at this point. I wanted to name my son Benjamin, which was not a name that my husband and I had discussed. The anesthesiologist said, “This is no longer something that you have to feel.” He gave me a good shot of fentanyl to really knock me out.

And so, three hours later, I woke up to my husband doing skin-to-skin with my son Miles, not Benjamin and from there, I was confused, disoriented and in a lot of pain and discomfort, wanting to nurse. Breastfeeding was really important to me, really wanting to bring him in for our first latch and even from there, trying to latch my son but not being able to sit up and bring him to my chest, and just having a midwife take my breast and shove it in my baby’s face. I felt like I didn’t matter which, I think, was the furthest thing from the intention. It was rather, “We need to get this done.”

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, but still. I feel like there was such a lack of including you in everything. It was just like things were being done to you versus with you, and so I could see how you were feeling that.

Lindsay: Thank you. Yeah, exactly. So we ended up having two days in the hospital and really focused on nursing and controlling what I could control. So making sure that I was walking as quickly as I possibly could. We were really focused on breastfeeding and getting my son on an every two hours nursing schedule on top of on-demand while focusing on letting him get that long stretch of sleep at night. 

So that’s why I started to excel as a mom and really stepped into my own, but I carried a lot of trauma and grief from that birth. I remember the first night being at home laying in bed, my son was fussing and my husband was walking at the end of the bed back-and-forth with him on his chest. I was just sobbing saying, “You don’t realize how lucky you are. All I want to do is get up and walk my son back-and-forth. This is what I’ve dreamed of and I can’t.”

And so the first few weeks, also feeling like I was pretty helpless in terms of my lack of mobility and how sore I was, and it was just a much longer recovery then I had anticipated and was prepared for. And so at my last discharge appointment, my question was, “Can I do a VBAC? Can I deliver vaginally after a Cesarean?” It was a very clear, “Absolutely. Your baby was OP.” So my son Miles was full OP and he also was 9 pounds, 2 ounces.

Meagan: Hmm, a bigger baby.

Lindsay: So he was pretty big. A bigger baby and at the point of the C-section, he had descended so far down the birth canal that he was just stuck. And so the message was, “You can absolutely do a VBAC. In your next pregnancy, we will focus on a lot of bodywork, chiropractic care, and massage,” so some of the things that I was doing before. 

The big one was diet. I had gained a lot of weight in my pregnancy with my son. I definitely was carrying a bigger baby and that showed, but I was an all belly pregnancy and very active. We are talking hiked 15 kilometers at 38 weeks active. I felt, at that point, pretty defeated. Like, “Okay. I must carry big babies, but for my next pregnancy and birth, I am going to do everything within my control to have a VBAC and whatever else is passed over to the higher powers.”

And so I continued on raising my little boy, really loved being a first-time mom. We were keen to expand our family, and so we ended up getting pregnant a lot sooner than expected. We got pregnant when my son was about nine months and we just made it in on the cusp of when they would endorse and support a VBAC versus mandate or strongly recommend a C-section. Where I am, 18 months is the standard and my babies were exactly 18 months apart. So I really, really just snuck in there.

Julie: Nice, nice.

Lindsay: So I’m pregnant with my second and I just started to consume a ton of literature and content all around VBACs. If something was recommended to me, I did it without hesitation. I went for chiropractic care and massage very early on. I saw an acupuncturist. I did Spinning Babies religiously. I hired a doula and I followed her lead and guidance. I used her as a sounding board and I focused on what I could control which was finding my voice and using it, and learning about birth and labor so that I could be undeniably prepared for what was about to happen.

I also was really keen to have a homebirth just knowing statistically that homebirths for VBACs statistically are more successful in terms of a vaginal delivery. Unfortunately, my midwife team couldn’t endorse that. It was just out of their scope of practice, and so I did have to deliver in hospital. I just focused on really getting over those mental hurdles so that when it came time to being in labor, all I would focus on was just my labor and what was happening within my body.

So at about 37 weeks, I started to actively try to induce labor. I wouldn’t say I was doing anything like drinking a midwives’ cocktail, for example. It was more so just focusing on ensuring that my body was prepared for labor and when my body was ready to go into labor, I was ready right there with it.

I started doing acupuncture weekly. I was drinking my red raspberry leaf tea. I was doing my Spinning Babies, really focusing on inversions and bodywork for strong baby positioning. My baby was head down but not engaged in my pelvis yet, and so I was like, “I just want to make sure that this baby stays where he or she is supposed to be.”

At 40 weeks exactly– she is a due date baby– I went into labor. The piece before this is, I had started pre-labor at about 38 weeks. So for two weeks I was in prodromal labor. Am I saying that correctly?

Meagan: Prodromal labor, mhmm.

Lindsay: Thank you. And so I was consistently feeling strong Braxton Hicks and it was manageable, something that I wasn’t even really noticing because I was so busy with a 17-18 month old, but it was something I was noticing– the feeling and shift in my body. For the four nights leading up to my birth, every night from 11:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m., I would have consistent contractions. It was this feeling of the wave, the build, and the release, but by 5:00 a.m., they would just go away. So on a Monday night, we had called our doula thinking, “I am for sure in labor.” My contractions were getting closer together. They were getting stronger and they were definitely more consistent than the previous waves.

As soon as she entered our house, they stopped. And so I am like, “Yeah. We have just been up for hours tracking this.” Now it was to the point where I was uncomfortable and couldn’t stay in bed. And so we started talking about what I was feeling and I was like, “It just feels like something is tickling my bladder.” She was like, “That, my friend, is a hand. I think your baby has his or her hand in front of her face, so often you will see that start-stop labor pattern because the baby isn’t in a position where you can actively go into labor.”

This was really the start of feeling so heard, being able to talk through what was happening and have a solution provided and also the validation of, “You’re not going crazy. You are feeling something real within your body and it is going to be okay.”

And so she gave me some exercises and very strict direction like, “Do these exercises. Rest today and let’s see what happens that night. Let’s touch base before you go to bed and let see what happens.” So we get my son in bed. We call my doula and she said, “Okay. Here is the plan. You are going to go in the bath. You are going to do this exercise–” where I lay on the pillow and kind of let my leg hang and float.

Meagan: Side-lying. Mhmm. Side-lying probably.

Lindsay: No like, laying face first in the bath.

Meagan: Oh, in the bath. Wow!

Lindsay: In the bath. Yeah.

Meagan: Okay, cool.

Lindsay: Yeah. “You get in the bath. You are going to relax. You are going to lay on your belly and you are going to let it just hang.” My tub was just big enough to do this comfortably. And she was like, “And then from there, you are going to go to bed and you are going to try to get as much sleep as possible. If at 5:00 a.m., your contractions are still strong and consistent, I am coming over and we are going to kickstart this labor.” 

Let’s do it. I felt like we had a plan in place. And so I am laying in the tub and I am just going over my mental mantras like, “You are strong. You are healthy.” I definitely watched my diet in this pregnancy. Not that I was unhealthy with my son, but I was really strict with the sugar that I consumed and what I put inside my body.

I was like, “Your body was made to birth this baby. You can do this.” And so I just had my mantras that I said over and over. I got ready for bed. I tucked in. My husband and I were lying there. At 9:30, I have my first contraction and it feels just like my son.

Meagan: In the back?

Lindsay: All in my back and I am instantly like, “This is–”

Meagan: Triggering, probably.

Lindsay: Triggering, yeah. It’s happening again. And so I’m turning to my husband and I am like, “You need to call the midwives. You need to call the doula. I need to go to the hospital now.” My husband was just such a calm, strong voice of reason. He was like, “Okay Linds. We are going to crank up the bath. We’re going to crank up the bath to a hot, hot heat and get you in it for some comfort and relief and I am going to call the doula.” 

And so I get in the bath and I am sitting facing the long side of the bathtub wall, kind of pressing against it with my knees up, and we are running the water hot. He is pressing on my pressure points and my low back. He calls the doula and he is like. “This is it. She is in labor. This is happening.” And she was like, “Okay. Well, talk to me. What is happening?” And he is now kind of frantic like, “No, no. There is no time for me to tell you what is happening. She is in labor.”

And so he quickly says, “She is in the bath. It is as hot as we can get it. I am pressing on her back and if you don’t come here, we are going to the hospital.” Keep in mind, I was pregnant during COVID, so our doula couldn’t come with us to the hospital. She could only be with us at home.

Julie: Oh man.

Meagan: Yeah, aww. Oh no.

Lindsay: So she gets to the house and it’s now like 10:00ish. She takes over for my husband, pressing on my low back and she is like, “Okay. You’ve got this.” She is like, “You are doing so great, Linds.” She’s asking me how I am feeling. She’s asking me about the sensation and I am like, “It is in my back, but I do get relief when you are pressing on the pressure points. It is just that it’s now in my back and my hips.” I could just feel everything moving down.

And so at 11:00, and an hour where I am in this bathwater, she’s like, “Okay. Let’s get you out and let’s make a plan on what we are going to do.” We knew I had to transfer to hospital because I didn’t feel comfortable birthing a baby without medical support in my home. And so we are standing in my living room, slowly getting me dressed. She transitions to doing these exercises where every contraction, I press up against the wall with loose knees and she lifts my belly up as I lean over her. The whole intention was just ensuring that we were working with my body and baby to get my baby in the best position.

Meagan: Yeah, like an abdominal lift.

Lindsay: I think that’s what it’s called. Don’t quote me on that, but I am going to guess.

Meagan: Yeah, that’s awesome. It’s intense too, for you.

Lindsay: Super intense, but we are in such a good rhythm. We are like, “Now we have a plan for every contraction.” I have the rhythm. I’m feeling really good. She calls the midwives and she’s like, “Okay. Lindsay’s contractions are two minutes apart and consistently a minute long,” and the midwife was like, “Meet me at the hospital now.” I had been in labor for an hour and a half and I knew things were moving quickly.

And so we hang up in my doula was like, “Listen. You are in charge here. We will go to the hospital when you want to go to the hospital. 30 minutes, an hour, we get there when we get there. So what feels good for you?” Again, it was just that validation of feeling a part of what was happening and feeling like I was steering the ship. We decided that my husband was going to pack the car and in the next 30-ish minutes to an hour, I would be at the hospital. 

She was like, “Let’s just continue to focus on this really good rhythm.” So at 11:15, I looked to her and I was like, “I am in transition.” She’s like, “Okay. Tell me what you are feeling. I was like, “I am shaking. My contractions are back-to-back. I am cold and hot at the exact same time. I’m sweating from pores I didn’t even know existed.” She was like, “Yep. You’re definitely in transition,” and very, very calm.

Meagan: Positive things, positive things.

Lindsay: Positive things, yeah. She was like, “We should probably get you into the car.” Just as we were getting downstairs, I had that little pause in contractions and she was like, “Okay. So when you get to the hospital–” reminding me of all of the things to ask for like how many centimeters dilated I am, what station I am at, so on and so forth. 

And so I am feeling good about going and we are kind of waiting. I was still like, “Let’s have one more contraction, and then get me in the car and we will go straight to the hospital. So that’s the plan.”

There was like a little break. I am enjoying the relief and all of a sudden, there was a contraction. I get on the wall and she lifts my belly. I am leaning over her and my husband, and just as she lifts my belly, baby drops and I used some very foul language directing everybody to get their hands off of me. My doula drops to the floor. She just looks up and she is like, “Are you okay?” “I think so.” She was like, “Okay. Are we doing this here or are you going to the hospital? We need to go to hospital now.”

So she helps me out to the car, which, I am sure at 11:30p.m. was quite the sight for any of my neighbors because she is behind me but also cautiously ready to drop to the ground at any second. My husband is now panicked in the car honking the horn like, “We need to go!” So I get in the car– quickest ride I have ever had to our hospital. 

We pull into the labor and delivery ward, do the COVID screen and get in. I go in first, but my husband hast to stay back and wait. And so I go into the first section of the labor and delivery ward and my midwife does my check. She is kind of scolding me like, “You said you would be here in 30 minutes to under an hour and it has been an hour.” I am just calm, cool and collected like, “How many centimeters am I dilated?” I am prepped for an 8. She was like, “All right. So you’re 10 centimeters dilated. The next step is to break your water and push the baby out.” 

So she tells me to go to the end of the hall to labor and delivery room and she was like, “I’m going to go get your husband because it is go time.” We get into the room and everything stopped. My contractions were nonexistent. My energy was different. I no longer felt in the zone. I felt edgy and amped up a little bit. I was totally experiencing fight or flight. And so they were like, “Okay.” We get my doula on the iPad. She is FaceTimed in now. I am excited and nervous, but my body has now totally stopped.

That’s where the doubt starts to creep and like, “I don’t know if I can do this.” All of the literature about feeling not comfortable in your space and all of that, I am like, “I just don’t know. I am out of my labor zone.” So they break my water and I feel the pressure of the baby bearing down. I just keep asking, “So when do I start pushing?” I am like, “There are not really any contractions.” This is a very different feeling now. They were like, “Oh, you will feel it. On your next contraction, if you feel the urge to push, you can absolutely bear down.”

And so about an hour and a half into being at the hospital, I finally start having consistent contractions again. Because I am a VBAC, I have consistent fetal monitoring. The baby is not in distress and my heart rate is great, so we just carry on. My contractions now are existent but just noneffective. And so between every fourth contraction, my midwives and my doula were getting me into a different position to try to get this baby out. Within the first push they were like, “The baby is right there,” and I just wasn’t able to push.

I am pushing and my midwife is directing me, so now she is inside me pressing down like, “Push here.” She is like, “You are pushing really effectively,” and so it becomes a little bit of this puzzle. I am fully dilated. My waters are broken. I do have contractions and we are trying different positions, but this baby is just not coming.

And so it’s about two hours in. I am getting pretty tired because it’s the middle of the night and feeling super defeated. The same narrative of, “You can’t do this,” is echoed by a member of the care team. At this point, I am like, “Get this baby out of me.” Like, “We are going to need some medical intervention for this baby to arrive Earthside. I cannot do this anymore.”

Meagan: Aww yeah. Just total doubt.

Lindsay: Total doubt despite being very prepared and having such a strong voice. My husband was like, “Linds, you can do this. You have worked so hard for this.” He was like, “I can literally see the baby. You’ve got this. It’s okay. You can do this.” And then there was a student midwife and a very new midwife– I think she had graduated a year or six months prior– and they were incredibly encouraging. They were like, “Lindsay, we are working with you. You’ve got this, girl. You’ve got this.” Every contraction cheering me on, so the energy was so positive, but it was just like, the combination of myself and another provider that lacked confidence that really took the scheme out of the labor.

And so now it’s 4:00 in the morning, four hours into pushing and they say, “We are going to bring an OB consult.” I am pretty distraught at this point. I have no medication. I am really leaned in to like, “I am going to do this naturally one way or another.” My husband is advocating for me and such a big support system. I have two relatively junior midwives who are like, “You are doing this.” We decide despite all that that we are going to call in an OB consult. By chance, it was one of my most favorite OBGYNs on call that night. She was there to do another emergency C-section.

And so she walked in and we went over the chart. She was like, “Man.” She had done my consult for if I was a VBAC candidate, and so she was like, “Linds, you can do this.” She was like, “You are so close.” She said, “Here’s the thing. I have another emergency C-section. You are not in distress. Your baby is not in distress. You’re both doing well, so while I do this other C-section, your job is to lay on your side with the peanut ball, knees together for the 30-45 minutes it takes me to do my other C-section. I will come back and if you are not progressing and you are still struggling to push out this baby, then we will do a C-section.”

And so I felt at that point, “If it goes to a C-section, I am okay with that. I feel like I have really done everything in my power.” Pushing for that long was physically exhausting and not rewarding. So I’m like, “That’s cool. I’ll lay on my side on the peanut ball as uncomfortable as it is. I will bear down and it’s going to be what it’s going to be.”

And so she leaves the room. I am on my side and because my midwife had kept checking they were like, “The baby is not OP. It just keeps rotating from left to right.” It was my body. I just wasn’t working in the right position to have the baby tuck under my pubic bone and out.

When the OBGYN checked me she was like, “Absolutely. This baby just keeps rotating right to left, and so we just need to get it in the best birthing position. Let’s have you lay on this side as a last ditch effort.” She walks out and comes back in 45 minutes later and she is like, “Oh my god. We’re about to have this baby. Like right now, we are about to have this baby.” She is in full scrubs and walks back out of the delivery room. At this point, I am like, “Where is she going? I need her in here.”

Meagan: You’re like, “Wait, I thought you said we were going to have this baby.”

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah.

Meagan: “And you leave?!”

Lindsay: Yeah. I’m like, “Am I doing this solo? What’s happening here?” My midwives laugh and they’re like, “No, no. She just has to release the OR team because everyone is on standby to see if they are doing a section on me.” And so she walks in 30 seconds later and after about four pushes, my sweet little baby girl was born.

Meagan: Aww. That is quite, I mean, gosh. That is quite the journey during the pushing stage. A lot of people would have totally been told like, “You have no option. You are going to a C-section,” after it had been just a couple of hours of pushing. They kept giving you more time and I just think it is awesome. I mean, it is really awesome that you guys had those providers in there to advocate for you.

Overcoming Doubt

But I wanted to talk a little bit about that doubt that you talked about was creeping in. It doesn’t always just creep in at the end. It can creep in during all periods of labor and even before labor begins. I think it’s awesome that you had your team there. I mean, your husband obviously is amazing and was like, “You have worked so hard for this. You can do this.” He built you up, but what’s a little piece of advice that you would give to our listeners? 

Because I think that is something that happens all the time. It happened for me. I mean, I think everyone who has heard my story– I think I shared it. I was throwing a fit in the driveway because my water broke and it triggered me. It was like, “No, it’s not going to happen.” I just had this total doubt. What would you say really, really helped you? Do you think it was your team? What did you do physically and mentally to just be like, “Okay, yes,” and snap back into it, water splashed back into your face?

Lindsay: It was a combination of having the toolbox and building my own toolbox. So doing the reading, and The VBAC Link was on every morning and every night. I consumed podcasts and good news stories like they were liquid gold. I read the books. If someone made a suggestion, I did it blindly, and so I felt like the toolbox of confidence and support was built and that was me. That wasn’t anyone else. That was me wanting to know, wanting to be educated, and wanting to feel empowered and confident going into labor. And then that married with building the team that I knew would support me so that when I had a question and labor, when something came up, I was able to not only go into my toolbox, but also to my support team and know that they had my back.

To your point, when that doubt creeped in it didn’t creep in on its own. There was an external voice in the room that supported that. It was the moment of my husband saying, “You can do this.” But I was like, “Yeah. He is right. I can do this.” And also, “I don’t have to listen to her.” I can listen to everyone else in the room that is validating me, supporting me, and believes in me. 

And so hat was my two-prong approach to building up my confidence and empowerment. If something doesn’t feel right, just continue to ask and lean into that until it feels like you’ve been heard and it feels like you understand what’s happening.

Meagan: Yes. I love that. Such great tips because it does. It really does happen and yeah. Like you said, it didn’t just happen. It was placed there, and then it got worse. So I love that so, so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story. I loved it. I am so proud of you and I’m so happy that you were able to have your doula there for a little while and all of that. These COVID births, man. They are all so interesting to hear how they went down. But we are so grateful that you had your team. Julie, is there anything you want to add or anything?

Julie: Nope. I think that sounds great. It’s a great story. I love all of the preparation that you did. I was kind of like that too with my first VBAC. I just did everything. Somebody told me about a resource, I sucked it all up. I went to all of the birthing groups. I soaked in of all of the stories, just all of it. I absolutely love that. I think it’s so important.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Lindsay: My close network of moms that had C-sections either hadn’t had a VBAC yet, weren’t interested in doing a VBAC, or had just gone straight to a repeat section. So I felt like my personal network was really limited in terms of the resources and questions that I could ask and lean on. And so I just turned on to an online community. So The VBAC Link Community being such a good example. If I don’t have someone to ask, where can I find that information from other real-life humans, not necessarily just a book right?

So yeah. So that’s kind of where I landed and it’s so funny because I left the hospital fairly quickly. So I gave birth at 6:13 and I was home by two. And so it was partially due to Covid and partially due to the natural delivery, like let’s get her back home and comfortable and that night, my Julie came over to check in and see how we were doing and meet our little baby and the first thing I said was, I can’t wait to do it again. Do you know? Our family isn’t complete yet and yeah, I can’t wait to do it again. And so July 31, we are doing it again.

Meagan: No! This year?

Lindsay: Yeah. This year.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. That’s so awesome.

Julie: Yay.

Meagan: Oh, congratulations. That is so awesome. So, so awesome.

Julie: Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah. It’s a very similar approach, you know? I went in and went with the midwife team that supports me that I felt heard by and that I feel like the most comfortable with in our monthly appointments. I reached out to my doula right away and she typically doesn’t take summer clients, but I snuck in there which was awesome. And yeah. We are just doing everything again that we can. We have the confidence of success, of course, in our back pocket, but it is the same approach. Control what you can control.

Meagan: Mhmm. Yeah.

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: Oh, I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and we really, really do appreciate you.

Lindsay: Thank you.

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

The only predictable thing about birth is its unpredictability! When Carly felt the urge to push at home, she realized that there wasn’t enough time to make it to her hospital of choice. She would have to have to fight for her VBAC at the closest hospital– the same hospital where she had her traumatic C-section.

Though she wasn’t treated with the respect she deserved yet again, this time, Carly held her ground. This time, Carly was in control. This time, Carly birthed her baby how she knew she could.

“The first time I became my mom was literally a once-in-a-lifetime experience for me and I felt like that had been stepped on for so many different reasons. The second time around, I was like, ‘I am going to fight for this.’”

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: How to Find a Truly Supportive Provider

Mamastefit 

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: You guys, it is The VBAC Link. We are back. We are so happy. We are four weeks into this and seriously, it is just making me smile every single time we record with another guest. It is Meagan and Julie with The VBAC Link and we have a guest today. Her name is Carly and she will be sharing her VBAC story. You guys, she is pretty stinking amazing. She does all the things. She does cloth diapers, co-sleeps– all the things. I am reading through her bio and I am like, “She is amazing.” You are so amazing. Cloth diapering is a hard thing to do and the fact that you even do it part-time is amazing. So I am excited to get to know you even better and learn more about you.

Right before we dive into your amazing story, we have Julie, of course, with the Review of the Week.

Review of the Week

Julie: Okay. So we already know that I have this weird thing where sometimes I feel like I need to be a singer on the podcast this season. This season, I don’t know what you even call it. In this next review, I am not going to sing, but I really want to just sing because Carly is from Philadelphia. If you know what song is triggering in my mind right now from Philadelphia, I will not sing it. I have been trying to not because I think it is a little bit weird. I don’t want to be weird.

I’m really weird. Oh my gosh. I’m weird. Oh my gosh. I’m so weird, you guys. Okay. But anyway, I am just going to read the Review of the Week while you guys can sing the song I am thinking about from Will Smith, and Philadelphia, and all that playground stuff where he spent most of his days. 

All right, so this review is from Kiley MoMy from Apple Podcasts and it is titled, “Listen If You Are Considering a VBAC.” She said, “My first child was born via emergency C-section and I felt very discouraged and afraid that my next birth could end up being a C-section again. I started listening to this podcast for information and what I got was so much more. The stories shared are so raw, emotional, and amazing. They helped me prioritize a supportive VBAC team, gave me the right questions to ask my providers, and filled me with confidence and knowledge to do what was best for me and my baby. My second child was born via VBAC and I am so grateful to The VBAC Link for helping me overcome the fears I had with my previous birth and helping me to prepare emotionally for my second birth however it turned out.”

I love that review. Thank you so much, Kiley. Oh my gosh. All these warm and fuzzies are kind of making me tear up a little bit. I don’t realize, I think, how much I have missed that.

Meagan: I know. I know. Yeah.

Julie: If you are loving the podcast and you love having it back, we would love to hear from you. So please drop us a review on whatever podcast platform you are listening to. Actually, I think not very many of them you can leave reviews on, but you can leave one on Apple Podcasts for sure. You can go to Google. Just Google The VBAC Link and drop us a review there or you could leave us a review on Facebook because not a lot of people do that anymore.

Meagan: That’s true.

Julie: It’s so strange. We used to have a ton of Facebook reviews and then all of them kind of tapered off. But I feel like Facebook might be not prioritizing businesses in your newsfeed anymore. Maybe that’s a little bit why. But if you want to show us a little bit of love and show us how grateful you are for having the podcast back if you are, we would love to have a review in either one of these places. It definitely makes our day. My cheeks kind of hurt a little bit from smiling right now from all of this. So thanks so much again, Kiley MoMy, and thank you to everybody that has taken time out of their day to put a smile on our faces.

Carly’s Story

Meagan: Okay. Let’s dive into Carly‘s story about her two beautiful girls. I am excited to hear both stories. We always say we are excited to hear the VBAC story, but we are also excited to hear your C-section stories too. We are excited to hear about those births because they matter just as much. So Carly, let us s turn the time over to you and talk about that. I’ll just turn the time over.

Carly: Okay awesome. Thank you so much for having me. This is amazing. So I will start with my C-section story. I found out that I was pregnant in April 2018. I was finishing up student teaching. I was about to finish graduate school. I was applying for jobs, going on interviews, and putting together my portfolio and demo lessons, so it was a really chaotic time for me. It was stressful, but it was also really exciting. I was wrapping up one period of my life and starting another both in my personal life and my professional life.

So I went into the following school year as a first-year teacher and a first-time mom. I was about five and a half months pregnant when I started a new job which was a little overwhelming.

Julie: Yeah.

Carly: Teaching can be overwhelming as it is, so it was a stressful couple of months. It was an exhausting couple of months for me. I had a normal, healthy pregnancy. I went into labor naturally with my first daughter. It was about nine days before my due date. I was at school and my water broke in the middle of the day. It wasn’t a huge rush. It was kind of like slow gushes throughout the day and I wasn’t having any contractions. I wasn’t even sure at first if it was my water that had broken. 

So I finished out the school day. I stayed after school for a couple of hours to put some things together for my substitute for the following week and then by the time I got home around 5:00- 5:30, the contractions had started.

When they started, they were coming every couple of minutes, so I was having regular contractions once they started. I took a shower. My husband got home and I was like, “Listen, I think I am in labor. We should head to the hospital.” We stopped on the way for him to pick up something for dinner and then by that point, I had called my mom to tell her, “I am in labor. Come whenever you are done.” She was working. “Come whenever you are done with work.” I wanted her in the delivery room with me.

At that point, on the way to the hospital, I was timing them. They were coming every three minutes. So I was like, “All right. I am in labor. This is good.” When we arrived at the hospital, that’s when things got a little crazy. We arrived at the hospital during a shift change and they didn’t know what to do with me, so they left me in a wheelchair in the waiting room. When I say they left me, I mean I was out there for about 40 minutes and no one ever really came to get me.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Meagan: Good heavens.

Carly: My husband had to go in twice. The first time, I thought I was going to be sick, so he went to see if someone could get me a bag or a trash can. The second time, it was like, “Hey. It’s been so much time. We are still out there. Is anyone going to come and get my wife?” They finally came and got me. They took me back to triage. They checked me. I was 6 centimeters. They admitted me. 

At that point, they gave me an ultrasound to make sure my baby was head down. I just remember my husband being like, “Look! There are her eye sockets. I can see her eye sockets. And I was so out of it that I didn’t see, but I remember him saying that. So at that point– it was a doctor who gave me the ultrasound– we knew that she was posterior. No one ever told me she was posterior. I didn’t really know that was a thing at that point, but you could see her eyesockets. She was face up.

So the nurse was like, “All right. We will get you to your room. We will get you your epidural.” I was like, “Hang on a second. I don’t know if I want an epidural.” I had wanted to try to go unmedicated. During my labor class at the hospital, they told me that there were multiple methods of pain relief. They had a shower. You could use the gas or the birthing ball. 

What I didn’t know was that you had to ask for those things and not even just ask, you would have to fight to get those things. No one offered me any other options. It was like, “Get your epidural and stay in bed.” So that’s exactly what I did. I got my epidural. The anesthesiologist who gave me the epidural was a butt head to put it very nicely. He was really a whole series of expletives that I probably can’t say on your show, so I won’t. He yelled at me at one point. 

First, he came into the room. He didn’t even introduce himself. He yelled at me after as he was inserting the epidural because I was hunched over in the middle of a contraction. He yelled at me to lie down and when I didn’t, he grabbed me from behind both of my shoulders, / threw me on the bed, and then yelled at me again and was like, “I told you. You need to lay down.”

Meagan: What?!!!

Carly: And then he left the room.

Julie: Whoa.

Carly: And that was like—

Julie: Expletive, expletive, expletive.

Carly: Yeah, exactly.

Julie: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh!

Meagan: Oh my gosh.

Carly: So it was at that point that I began to feel out of control of what was happening to me. I began to feel like, “This is not what I expected. This is not what I wanted for myself and my baby.” I felt like birth was happening to me. I wasn’t really a part of it. 

So I labored on my back with an epidural for a while. They brought me a peanut ball eventually. My nurse was amazing. It was freezing in the room. She brought me a couple of extra blankets and we found out later on that the thermostat in my room was set to probably about 44°. It was very cold and no one realized it. No one adjusted the thermostat. We just assumed it was normal.

The doctor working was a doctor from my practice who I had never met. She was the only one I had never met and of course, she was the one who was on. So I labored. I dilated to 10 centimeters. I pushed for three hours. At one point in the middle of pushing, I was having really bad heartburn and I had asked a couple of different nurses, I had asked the doctor if I could have an antacid and no one acknowledged really that they had heard me. No one answered me. No one told me, “No. You are not allowed to,” or “We can’t give you that now.” No one came back with an antacid and at one point, they laid me flat on my back, and all the acid in my stomach came up, and I got sick all over the place.

The doctor tried to use a vacuum. It didn’t work and at that point, she was like, “It’s been three hours. Nothing is happening.” My baby was still tolerating labor well, so I don’t really know. I guess it was just like, I was on the clock. Time is up. C-section. So they took me back for a C-section. The anesthesiologist there was much nicer and I let him know he was a lot nicer than the first one. They strapped down my arms. I got sick again and I was shaking just so hard. I couldn’t even hold my baby afterward.

I remember just feeling totally out of control and just hating the fact that I felt totally out of control. No one explained to me what was going on. And afterward, I asked my doctor, “Hey, what happened? Was baby stuck?” She was like, “Yes. Baby was sunny-side-up and stuck in your pelvis.” I was kind of like, “We knew she was sunny-side-up. You didn’t know that?” I feel like looking back now, even if they had thought she was rotating during labor, at some point when I couldn’t get her out, it might have, I don’t know. This was my own personal– it might have helped for someone to be like, “Hey. Oh yeah. She’s posterior. Maybe we should try a different position where it is easier to get a posterior baby out.”

Meagan: Yeah. Sometimes a provider can actually help turn a baby.

Carly: Yes, yeah.

Meagan: Like actually, manually from the inside. I know it sounds invasive and it is. It is, but they can actually help turn. There is a doctor here in Utah. It’s amazing. He will be like, “Okay, the baby is going to rotate this way.” And during pushing, he will rotate and baby will just be head down and come right underneath the pubic bone.

Carly: Yeah. So it felt like there was no communication from when we came into the hospital to my doctor.

Meagan: Yeah.

Carly: So it felt afterward like I was devastated. I felt like I had been unheard during my stay at the hospital. I felt misled about needing a C-section. I felt like I wasn’t really an active participant in my birth. 

I wanted to know whether or not I could still have a vaginal birth after that, so I did some googling, and I had talked to my husband‘s cousin who had a C-section and was planning on having a VBAC for her next. She did, actually, five months after I had my C-section. So she was a really great resource to talk to. When I went for my six-week check-up, I had asked my doctor about it and she was like, “Yeah. If there are 18 months between deliveries, it’s no problem.” But a couple of months later, she left the practice, and then I wasn’t sure whether other doctors would still be supportive of that.

So fast forward to a little over a year later, my husband and I started trying for baby number two in February 2020. I got pregnant in March 2020 about two weeks into our quarantine for COVID and I immediately began doing research. That’s when I discovered you guys and I listened to you every chance I got. My husband was still working at the time. He is a teacher so he was still working, but he was on a modified schedule. This was the first time they had ever tried to do virtual learning and he is in the city teaching, so a lot of the kids don’t have a computer. They don’t have access to the Internet. So he was available to help me around the house with the little one when I was in the first-trimester exhaustion and nausea.

We had a lot of family time during quarantine which was really cool. I still had to go to all of my doctor's appointments alone and as a second-time mom, it was hard so I can’t even imagine first-time moms and what that was like to do that over COVID. I had this fear of COVID, but also still wanted to be social with friends and family after our quarantine had ended, so that was a conflicting time for me as far as trying to balance what was healthy for me and my baby while still wanting to celebrate my pregnancy with my family and my friends. That was a continual thing throughout the rest of my pregnancy. 

I was healthy. I had a healthy pregnancy. At my 20-week anatomy scan, they had said that my baby’s head had a lemon sign, which is when baby’s head looks like it is shaped like a lemon. It is characteristic of Spina Bifida. So they said they recommended that I go for a level II ultrasound. I was trying not to Google too much and trying to be positive about it. I was also concerned that my dreams of a VBAC might not be able to happen.

I went to maternal-fetal medicine to get a level II ultrasound and I went by myself because I wasn’t allowed to have anybody else come with me.

Meagan: Yeah.

Carly: –which was super stressful. You know, there were other women who were there too and it was kind of like, “Hey. We are alone and in this together.”

Meagan: We are in this together, yeah.

Carly: My baby ended up being okay which was awesome and I became more determined to get my VBAC after that. I talked to my husband about switching to a midwife because I wasn’t totally sure that my provider was VBAC friendly. He wasn’t necessarily on board at first. I tried to show him a lot of research that I had done. Women all over the world every day give birth with midwives and I feel like we are one of the only, if not the only, countries where it has become so medicalized where the doctors are the ones primarily delivering babies.

We talked to one of his former coworkers who had two home births with a midwife and I think she was really the one who helped convince him like, “Hey. Not only is it safe. It might be safer and you get that level of individualized care that you don’t necessarily get with an OBGYN.” So I went to my 24-week appointment with my OB with a list of questions to ask then I was like, “If they answer them the way I think they are going to answer them, they are not really VBAC-friendly.” I have you guys to thank for this because I think this is on one of your blog posts. This has been on your podcast and I have listened to about how to tell if your provider is VBAC tolerant versus VBAC supportive.

Julie: Yeah. Yep. We talk about it all day.

Carly: Yes. So my doctor answered questions like I thought she would. She started saying, “Well, if your baby isn’t too big,” and I was like, “Well, what qualifies as a big baby?” My first baby was a little over 8 pounds and she was like, “Yeah. Well, she was pretty big. So probably if baby is around the same size, we would recommend a repeat C-section.”

Now, my sister and I were both over 11 pounds when we were born. My mother birthed us naturally, vaginally. So to me, 8 pounds is not a big baby. So that threw a red flag for me. There were a couple of other questions I asked that I was like, “That’s a red flag too.” So I went home and I emailed two groups of midwives that week. I had a couple of virtual interviews with them and I picked one that I really liked and I went to see them for my 28-week appointment. I also switched hospitals at that time, the hospital where I would birth that.

My appointments went from about five minutes with my OB to 45 minutes with my midwife which was a huge change and I really felt that level of individualized care with them. I was still feeling a little unsure about whether I had made the right decision and I think it was the week I decided to make the change, I had watched the show Call the Midwife on Netflix. It is about a group of nuns who ran the Saint Raymond Nonnatus house.

If you don’t know, I am Catholic. If you don’t know, Saint Raymond Nonnatus is the patron saint of midwives and women in labor. My husband had gotten me this daily reflection book for Catholic moms. Later that day, I picked up this book before I went to bed. I hadn’t read it in months and I opened to the day. It was August 31st and it just happened to be the feast day of Saint Raymond Nonnatus. That, for me, was confirmation that I was making the right choice. I had no doubts after that. I had made the right choice.

Julie: That’s amazing.

Carly: It was amazing. I also, at this time, started seeing a chiropractor. I started Hypnobirthing. I wanted to go fully unmedicated. I was doing Spinning Babies. I was walking every week. I was doing lots of squats. I had made affirmation cards. I read different books. I watched movies. I had a motivational birth song that I listened to which helped pump me up and get excited like, “I can do this. I can do this.” I did a lot of research on the labor process, labor positions, and different stations. I followed this woman on Instagram. Her Instagram account is Mamastefit and I think I found her on your podcast. I’m pretty sure you guys had her on your podcast.

Meagan: Yes, Gina!

Julie: We love her.

Meagan: Gina, we love her. 

Carly: Yes. She’s amazing.

Julie: She is amazing.

Carly: I screenshotted a whole bunch of her labor stations, positions for labor if you know where baby is as baby comes through the pelvis, I had screenshotted all of these and printed them out and put them together in this birth binder I had where I had everything I would need to take to the hospital with me. I had my birth affirmations. I had ultrasound pictures. It was motivational but also informational. I didn’t know whether necessarily I would be able to use it during labor, but I thought at least for my husband, maybe, if he needed some help along the way. 

So during this time, I was looking forward to this pregnancy, my second pregnancy, being a lot less stressful than my first. I was a stay-at-home mom now. I wasn’t teaching anymore. We were living in the city in a duplex. With our neighbors upstairs, the living situation had gone from bad to worse. So we were like, “Let’s look for a house.” 

So we started househunting at the time. My husband was back to school in the fall, fully virtual. At this point, they had a set schedule, but he was working probably from sun up to sun down for months on end trying to adjust all of his lesson plans to be fully virtual, putting together things on the computer which is totally different than in-person teaching.

I was taking care of our toddler. I was pregnant. I was doing all of the mortgage paperwork and looking at houses, and it was not any less stressful than my first pregnancy. We found a house in October. I was hoping to make settlement and move in before baby came. Baby was due in the middle of December. We made settlement the week before Thanksgiving and we found out that we weren’t going to be able to move until after Christmas. So I was really disappointed about that and unsure about moving with a newborn or potentially moving while having baby at the same time. 

Leading up to birth, I was having prodromal labor off and on all week. My contractions would start at night, run for a couple of hours, and then fizzle out. I went into labor actually the night before my due date. It was about 11:00 at night. I wasn’t sure whether this was real labor or not.

So I started timing my contractions. They were about three to four minutes apart. I texted my midwife at maybe 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning and I was like, “Hey. My contractions are about four minutes apart. They texted me back and were like, “Okay. Just try to relax. Try to get some sleep if you can. Lay in the bath. Try not to think about it too much.” 

I couldn’t get comfortable laying down. I went out to the living room. We were decorated for Christmas, so I put on our Christmas lights. It was quiet. I had put on some music and I just focused on breathing and breathing and breathing. At some point, I got up and I had put on my tens unit which was amazing and really helped, and I went back to just breathing. The hours just flew by and before I knew it, it was about 5:00 in the morning. I remember checking the time and thinking to myself. I had read somewhere along the way that second labors average about six hours and I was like, “It’s been about six hours for me. Maybe I should wake my husband up and let him know that this isn’t false labor. This is really labor. Maybe we should head to the hospital.”

The hospital where I was going to deliver was about 40 minutes away. I had to account for that and I wasn’t really sure when I should be leaving for the hospital. I hadn’t been in contact with my midwives since it was the middle of the night, so I wasn’t really sure how far apart my contractions should be or what they should feel like. Around this point, my husband got to the bathroom. He came out and he was like, “Okay. You’re in labor.” I was like, “Yes.” And he was like, “All right. I am going to email my principal. I am going to call your sister.” She was going to come and watch our toddler. 

I said, “All right. I’m going to jump in the shower real quick.” So I got into the shower. The water just felt so good and then all of a sudden, I felt the urge to push and I was like, “Oh boy. Okay. I was not expecting that.” But I just couldn’t move. The water felt so good. I just wanted to lay in it. Finally, I managed to crawl out of the tub. I was laying on the bathroom floor trying to call for him and he comes running. I am like, “I am pushing! We’ve got to go.” So he runs to get dressed. My poor sister– he called my sister in a panic and he was like, “Yeah. You need to get over here now.” She tried to start the car. There’s ice on the windshield. It was a whole process for her to get to our house.

By the time I finally got dressed and had brushed my hair and made it to the front door, she was just coming into the house. And I guess by this point, it was probably around 7:00 in the morning. We’re getting ready to go. My husband calls my midwife and is like, “Hey. Carly is pushing. I don’t think we are going to make it to the hospital. It is 40 minutes away and with rush-hour traffic, it is probably going to be about maybe an hour and a half.” 

My midwife was like, “Okay. I can come to you guys. Do you want to try to go to a different hospital?” And my husband was like, “I am just going to take her to the closest hospital,” which I knew was the hospital where I had my C-section and I did not want to go there. I was like, “No. I don’t want to go there.” He was like, “We don’t really have a choice. We are not having this baby in the car on the highway on the way to the hospital.”

So we got in the car. I ran out the door in between contractions. I ran out the door without my phone. I ran out the door without shoes. I had my hairbrush and my glasses in my hand which were the two things I chose to bring to the hospital with me. My husband had already packed the car. We got there. I jumped out and they took me to the hospital. At the hospital where I was originally supposed to give birth, COVID restrictions for the winter were that when you go into the hospital, you bring everything in with you because you weren’t allowed to leave once you were in including baby‘s car seat. 

So my husband starts trying to grab everything out of the car to come in and they told him, “Oh no, no, no, no. You are not allowed up yet. They will call down when they are ready for you.” So they took me up by myself and I didn’t have my phone. He had my phone and he was like, “How is she going to call me?” He had my phone. So they took me up. I had about five people ask me on the way. I go in and I am like, “Hey, I am pushing. Baby is coming.” “Have you given birth?” “Yes. I was here. I had a C-section.” “Okay. So you’re having another C-section?” I was like, “No. I am pushing. Baby is coming out.” 

I had about five different people ask me if I was having another C-section which I thought was ridiculous. And I was all alone in there by myself trying to tell them that, “No. Baby is coming. I am not consenting to a C-section. I am having a VBAC.”

Julie: My gosh.

Carly: “--and I’m going to push this baby out.” I felt like as soon as I walked in, they put me on the clock. It was like, “You know, we will give you so much time until you have a C-section.”

Meagan: Right.

Carly: They checked me. I was at a zero station which at this point, I knew what that meant. One of the doctors asked me if I was having an epidural. She said, “Were you planning on having an epidural?” I was like, “No.” And then she laughed at me and she was like, “Good because you are too late.” I was like, “Thank you. Why did you ask me?”

Meagan: Then why did you even ask?

Julie: Okay. Thank you. 

Carly: Exactly. Exactly. They finally let my husband up after I was in the delivery room. One of the nurses was talking about a C-section and it felt so good to finally have him because then he could advocate for me. He was like, “No. We are not doing that. She’s having a VBAC.” I had wanted to push in certain positions and I wasn’t making faster progress for them, so of course, I ended up on my back, but I had learned from Gina that if you do push on your back, roll up a towel and put it under your lower back. 

So I asked them at some point, “Hey, can you put a rolled-up towel under my lower back?” They did and I felt like that gave me more room to get the baby out. They gave me a mirror. I remember looking and seeing the top of her head and being like, “I think she might be face-up,” but I wasn’t sure. When I did push her out, I found out that she was born sunny-side-up.

Julie: Wow.

Carly: Which for me, I feel totally vindicated because that was the issue I had with my first one. She was sunny-side-up and I couldn’t get her out. So to actually push this baby out felt so amazing to me. I got my skin-to-skin. I had asked the doctor if we could wait to cut the cord. She said to my husband, “Do you want to cut the cord?” And I said, “Hey, can we wait a little bit?” And she just looked at me and she was like, “It’s been two minutes. How long do you want to wait?”

Julie: Oh my gosh. What a peach.

Carly: Right? And then at that point, the placenta had found its way out. My husband cut the cord. I was just so happy that none of that stuff even mattered to me anymore. I let it all go. So that’s pretty much it. 

To add to all of that craziness, we moved two weeks later when my baby was just born. To be finally in our house, in our own space, and to get settled in has just been amazing. We have been here for a little over a year. 

If it’s up to me, I will never give birth at the hospital again. If I have another baby, I will absolutely pursue a homebirth. I won’t give birth in a hospital again unless I absolutely have to. I have heard horror stories that are way worse than anything I have gone through.

Meagan: But still, from being thrown on beds, being harassed and asked multiple times if you are doing something that you are clearly not—

Carly: Exactly.

Meagan: Being like, “Well, isn’t that long enough?” I can understand why where you would be coming from because you haven’t been treated the best. You haven’t had the best experience personally.

Carly: No. Yeah, no. Not at all.

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: Absolutely. I understand that. That’s why I had home births. It’s really interesting. I was going to read a review on this episode but I couldn’t find it, so I read a different one. I think I am going to read it on the next episode that we do because it is really interesting. It’s actually from a labor and delivery nurse. It talks about how sometimes people who have had a previous Cesarean have an overall mistrust of hospitals, doctors, the system, interventions, and everything like that. 

She has a really good point because a lot of OBs and nurses really want what is best for you, but then there are experiences like this when there’s just complete lack of respect. Clearly, there is a big reason why a lot of parents are learning and being taught to distrust the system. They are being pushed out of the hospital and feel like they have no other option to be respected except for having a homebirth.

Now, we know that homebirth is a safe and reasonable option for low-risk parents. There have been lots of studies that have come out in recent years showing that there is no increase in safety for parents and babies for low-risk parents. Of course, there are times when it is medically necessary for both mom and baby‘s health for babies to be born in a hospital, but the overall mortality rates and health issues for low-risk women and their babies born out-of-hospital are similar between hospital and home birth. 

I use the word “pushed” out of a hospital system to homebirth, but a lot of parents feel that they don’t have a choice to be respected except for giving birth at home. That’s not good. That’s not good at all. I obviously am a huge advocate for a homebirth, but I want people to feel supported where ever they choose to birth and a hospital birth should be a great option. Homebirth should be a great option too. It is a great option. Both are great as long as you have a trusted space that you feel safe in. You should absolutely feel safe wherever you give birth.

The reality of our days is that a lot of women are not feeling respected and safe in a hospital birth. Now there are a lot of really incredible hospitals and really incredible providers and nurses all over the country that are working to make the space safer for birthing families, but we still have a long ways to go.

Meagan: We do. We are coming there. We are slowly coming. But I also can relate. After my two C-sections, I chose a birth center birth with a midwife and I don’t think I would have had the same experience the whole time, but I also think it really was a big part of my provider. My provider was someone that could be there for me all the time and I didn’t have all of those different people coming in, asking me different things, and trying to do different things. It was really nice because honestly, I could hardly focus on even getting the baby out let alone anything else going on. 

So yeah. It’s just important to have a good plan and know who you want to go to. I don’t blame you at all for wanting to experience a home birth. Plus it sounds like–

Julie: It sounds like you are a great candidate. I’m all for that.

Meagan: Yeah. Trying to get in the icy car, traveling–

Carly: All too much work.

Meagan: All of that work when you probably could have just honed in and probably had a baby pretty quickly, yeah.

Carly: Yeah.

Meagan: Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I am so proud of you. We did. We talked about advocacy last week and everything, but I mean really, it sucks. I am sorry that you had to experience it like that, being alone. COVID just sucked. It just sucked. I hate it. I hate what it has done to so many people. We have so many emails in our inbox from people who have experienced trauma and things like that from being left alone. It was a disservice to mental health in so many ways.

Carly: Yes.

Meagan: I’m sorry that you had to be in that place, but I’m also really happy for you.

Carly: But you know what? Thanks to you guys, you kept me informed about options and my rights so that I had the confidence to stand up for myself and be like, “No. This is what I want and I’m going to get it.”

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.

Julie: We are proud of you. We are proud of you for taking the time to gain that knowledge and confidence and putting in the work because it clearly paid off. There were still a lot of things that did not go the way you wanted, but I am proud of you for taking that time and getting that confidence, and doing the work because not everybody does that. Not everybody does that.

Carly: No, thank you. I feel like for most doctors and nurses in the hospital, it’s routine for them. They see birth every day. They do C-sections every day. But for us, the first time I became my mom was literally a once-in-a-lifetime experience for me and I felt like that had been stepped on for so many different reasons. The second time around, I was like, “I am going to fight for this.” 

I had a determination. I had a fire in my belly about it. I was informed. I felt confident. I felt confident enough to walk in there and be like, “I know I have the right to say no to you,” instead of just agreeing to whatever they recommended for me. And to have that confidence was pretty empowering. I went in there feeling pretty empowered to be able to stand up for myself. And I am a people pleaser by nature. I am not one to try to ruffle any feathers or rock the boat. So for me, it was huge. It was huge to be like, “I can go in there and I can advocate for myself and my baby and not care what anybody has to say to me about it.”

Julie: Yeah. Get it, girl. That’s what I like to hear. We love that. I love that. That’s speaking my language all day long.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Julie: Oh, awesome. Well again, we are really proud of you and we know that you are going to inspire a lot of people because sometimes, you just need to hear that other people do this too and that it’s okay. It kind of gives you permission to do it for yourself.

Carly: Mhmm, yeah. Yeah.

Julie: Not that you need permission, but it feels good to know that you are not alone.

Carly: Sure.

Julie: You’re not the first one to do this and you’re not going to be the last one to do it.

Carly: For sure.

Julie: So we are again super grateful for you for coming on and sharing your experience with us and with everybody else who is listening right now.

Carly: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. You guys are amazing. The work you do changes lives. It really does, so we appreciate what you do.

Julie: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much.

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

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Did you know that in South African private hospitals, where patients are better cared for, the C-section rate is 76%?! 

Joining us today all the way from South Africa is our friend, Danielle. She shares how she became part of that C-section statistic with her first birth, but also how she refused to let those numbers define her second birth. Though she fought an uphill battle, Danielle’s successful VBAC was an achievement that changed the course of her life. Her strength has paved the way for others in her area to no longer become a statistic and to no longer fear natural birth. 

Additional links

Natural Birth With Great Expectations Midwives

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome, welcome. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast with Julie and Meagan and we have a really special guest for you today. This is episode number 186. We have Danielle with us and Danielle is from South Africa. She had her C-section and her VBAC in South Africa. We were just chitchatting before we started recording the podcast. There are private and public hospitals and in the private hospitals, which is where you get the best care, the C-section rate is 76%. 76%!

Meagan: It’s so crazy to me. The crazy thing is that it’s where you get better care, but then–

Julie: –where you are treated better, I know.

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: In public hospitals, the C-section rate is 24%. When you combine those two together– I mean, I guess it just depends on the population density that is giving birth in each of the hospitals and so I guess I can’t really come up with an overall rate there for the country. Maybe Danielle knows when she will share her story with us. But that is very, very large. 

Danielle had quite the battle to fight during her pregnancies, births, and deliveries, but we are going to go ahead and let her share that with you after Meagan reads a Review of the Week for us.

Review of the Week

Meagan: Okay. This is from Brittany and it was actually on Instagram. She sent us a message on Instagram. It says, “Meagan and Julie, I just wanted to thank you for your amazing podcast. I just had the VBAC of my dreams a few days ago and honestly could not have done it without the encouragement of you guys and the women who share their stories. I was hesitant in wanting a VBAC going into my second pregnancy, but you guys gave me the confidence to do it.”

Crazy enough, we just got a message today from someone saying, “I am super hesitant. I had a C-section with my first. I didn’t progress past a 3, so my provider is telling me I am not a good match for a VBAC. I don’t know what to do. Is that possible? What do I do?” And that is exactly what this podcast does. It does. It empowers you. It encourages you. It educates you to make the best decision whether it be a repeat C-section or a vaginal birth. 

So congratulations, Brittany, on your VBAC. We are so happy that this amazing podcast and we could help you. If you guys have had an experience or anything like that with the podcast, we would love to hear it. Feel free to do Apple Podcasts or like I said, Instagram, or Facebook. Send us a message. We would love to read your review on the podcast someday.

Julie: I love that so much. I just want to say that whenever people say, “Oh yeah. Your podcast empowered me” or whatever, I will be like, “Well, you had the empowerment in you all along. We may have helped you discover it and open it up a little bit, but you need to own that. You were empowered. You did it You took charge. We might have helped you discover that along the way, but give yourself some credit too because you are pretty awesome.” 

That’s what I think every time I hear that. It’s pretty cool. I love all of our listeners and I love everybody that takes the time to leave a review, especially. So like Meagan said, if you have felt like the podcast has helped you on your journey, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, Google, or on Facebook. We would love to hear from you.

Danielle’s Story

Julie: All right. All right. All right. I am really excited and we know that Danielle is really excited to share her story with us as well. So Danielle from South Africa, we are really excited to have you on. Danielle is a busy mom of two little boys and she is an English teacher. She teaches English to foreign learners all over the world online. I think that is a really fun thing to do. I bet you have a lot of stories on that side of things too. But why don’t you come on and share your stories with us about your births?

Danielle: Hi. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. Okay well, I guess I will jump right in and share a little bit about my first birth. I had a really healthy pregnancy. I carried to about 40+5 weeks, so quite a long pregnancy there. The first sign of labor was my waters breaking. In a flurry, we rushed immediately to the hospital. I had lost my bloody show. I was pretty much hooked up immediately to monitors. They confirmed I was having mild contractions. I was in early labor. 

This was in the night and I kind of went to sleep and thought I’d be woken up by excruciating contractions, but I wasn’t. So by the morning, labor hadn’t progressed at all. I was given antibiotics because of the membranes rupturing, and then taken to the labor ward basically and given Pitocin to open the labor. The contractions got stronger, but they were pretty manageable. When they did an internal, they saw that I wasn’t dilating. I was 2 centimeters.

The baby went into fetal distress and I ended up in an emergency C-section. It’s not an uncommon thing, this story. But yeah. It left me feeling rather upset and I definitely just did not want it to go down that way. 

So almost immediately after I gave birth– this was probably two months after the birth– I came across the option of a VBAC. You know, when you are on maternity leave with a baby laying on your chest all day long, you discover these things. I found an amazing Facebook group and started following along, picking up all of the terms, some advice, and key providers, and I got really into it. I knew this was what I wanted to do for the next baby. 

When I got pregnant a few years later, it wasn’t exactly a planned pregnancy. It was a little bit of a surprise, being COVID and locked up is not really an ideal situation for a pregnancy, but nevertheless, it was a happy surprise. I knew immediately that I had a lot of preparation to do. Not just physically, but mentally and emotionally because I had this dream of a VBAC that was now a reality and I knew it was time to go to work.

The first thing I did was I contacted a doula who was recommended by a friend of mine. She was pretty shocked because I called her when I was only seven weeks pregnant. She said to me, “What are you doing calling me so early?” But she was amazing and she gave me some recommendations. I immediately started interviewing OBs and very quickly started to distinguish between a VBAC-friendly and VBAC-tolerant OB. I realized that unless the stars were going to perfectly align, I just wasn’t going to get my VBAC in a hospital. I just knew that.

So I met with Sarah and Elrika who are the midwives of Great Expectations. They are the VBAC dream team. As it is in South Africa, there is quite a stigma around natural birth. Going the midwife birthing center route is considered a little bit reckless and kind of like, “The hippies do it”. It is not really a common thing. So I was a little bit hesitant, but yeah. I went to meet with them. I also met with an OB who is very well known for being VBAC supportive. But still, I had some reservations. I was still very much afraid because we really are conditioned here to believe that natural birth is a scary thing. It’s not a safe thing here. That’s what we are taught.

But I knew this time it was different because I knew if I wasn’t happy with my caregivers that I would change the setup. But after every appointment with this team and with these people, I just felt more and more confident and definitely more at ease with my decision. I knew that I was surrounding myself with a really supportive VBAC team.

And then I was referred by my midwives to a really wonderful woman called Sally. She is a birth counselor and just an all-around wonderful therapist. I still have session with her today just to deal with all of the struggles of motherhood. We spent about nine months working together because from the outside looking in, everything seemed fine in my first birth and it was okay physically, but emotionally, I was traumatized. I really, really was. 

So working with Sally was such a big part of the preparation for me. It was so empowering for me because I had to face a lot of heavy stuff. It was a lot of internal work. I really am so grateful that I was able to do that and have that resource because I know there are not a lot of women who do have that available to them. So we made really huge leaps forward, her and I. And of course, there were lots of speed bumps along the way. Even right until the end of the pregnancy, there were some speed bumps, but it was really important for me to get over this trauma. 

Apart from that in terms of the VBAC preparation, like I said, I was all in. I left no stone unturned. I went to an osteopath regularly. I did pelvic floor physio. Spinning Babies, I did that. I read birthing books. I read The Mama Bamba Way of Childbirth. I don’t know if it’s available in the states, but my doula recommended that one, and a bit of Spiritual Midwifery.

I was listening to Solfeggio Frequencies on pain relief and did Epsom salt baths by candlelight. I was also even thinking of intentional things like, “Let me choose a candle that has a beautiful scent that I’m going to use in my birth,” and just holding up those resources that I could use in the birth. And then, educating myself. I was reading Evidence Based Birth articles. I watched the documentaries like The Business of Giving Birth.

And then of course, at two months in, I came across your podcast. That, for me, also became such a huge part of my therapy. For about seven months, I would walk three to four times a week listening to the podcast, laughing and crying. I resonated so much with these stories because these women, what they were saying and the things they were feeling, they were my feelings too, so it was really such an important part of this journey for me.

So I guess then fast forward to the VBAC itself. This pregnancy was no different. It was very healthy, thank goodness, and I carried quite late. I was about 40+6 when he arrived. We went into isolation about two weeks before the due date because this was the COVID protocol, and then for a few days, I was starting to lose my mucus plug a little bit. Then one night, I started having some contractions late at night. They were not that strong. I could sleep through them. But I remember it was a Monday morning at 6:00 a.m. when I woke up and they were still there. You just know in your body like, “Okay, something is really happening now.”

So I told my husband, Dane, and he took our son Max to school. He came home and we got ready because we actually had an appointment with our midwives, just a routine checkup. They knew what was going down. They said, “Come through. Let’s just have them look.” We went there. They were happy with how everything was going and they said, “Well, there is no need for you to check into the birth center right now. Go home and let labor take its course.” And I really wasn’t sure. I mean, “Should I be walking up and down the halls trying to get this going?” Both of them and my doula said, “It’s going to happen how it’s going to happen. The best thing you can actually do is just rest and chill.” 

And so that’s what I did. I lay in bed all day. I watched movies. I ate. I drank. I slept and the contractions were steadily there keeping me company all throughout the day. And I was just excited, really, because it felt so different than the first labor already. My husband was around. I told him to let the family know that things were going down. I was very specific about this though because I didn’t really want anyone sending me messages or calling me because as it is, I am such a highly strung, anxious person. I am always in my head and I just knew that the pressure and those questions were going to derail me. It was almost like that big match temperament. I needed to go inside this bubble and just get my head right. So that’s what I did. I stayed in this bubble all day radio silent basically.

My mom came over around lunchtime. She was going to stay with Max when we were going to the birth center. By the evening, things were definitely intensifying. I went home and we were going downstairs and having some dinner with the family. I will never forget that it was chicken soup. I always think to myself, “What a fantastic pre-birth meal that was.” And then the midwives told me to get into the bath for about an hour and time contractions. So that’s what I did. Again, using the same candles, the same music, the same space, and just resourcing on that safe space that I created throughout my whole pregnancy was really, really helpful I think.

So my husband was putting Max to bed and my mom was with me while I was in the bath. We spoke a little bit just about random things, and we just sat beside each other. I squeezed her hand through all of the contractions. I have to say because I think it’s a rule of thumb that you don’t really have your mom around when you’re in labor for various reasons, but I do have to say that it was such an unplanned thing, and it was such a lovely moment that we were able to have together for her to just be with me during this part of the labor. It was really, really special.

And then, yes. The contractions were really strong at this point. Definitely, I was in active labor. So we called the midwives and told them that we were ready to come. We were on the way. And at this point, I could really barely get down the stairs. It was really tough to even walk. So my mom helped us get loaded in the car. I was in the backseat and I just remember feeling that shift. My moans and groans were getting louder. Dane was playing my VBAC playlist that I had created with all my feel-good songs and he was trying to amp me up, and I don’t think I heard any of it. I was just in another zone.

When we got there, we were checked into our room. It was so beautiful and so different than the bright lights of a hospital room. It’s crazy. I had to do an internal upon arrival. I really told my midwives that I didn’t want any unnecessary interventions or internals, but that’s when I knew I had to do it, so I was prepared for it. It was really painful by the way. I couldn’t actually believe how painful it was. 

We also had agreed that I didn’t want to know how far along I was or how many centimeters I was dilating in case it would also derail me or discourage me. When Sarah, my midwife, finished the internal, she said, “Do you want to know how many centimeters?” And that, for me, was just everything because it was like she was really talking to me, not at me, which was what I had experienced before. I have so much respect for her for that. Really, I do. I said, “I only want to know if it’s good news.” She smiled and said, “You are 6 centimeters.” I was so pumped.

Julie: Yay!

Danielle: It was so electrifying. It was really wonderful. And this was about 9:00 in the evening more or less at this time. So I lay there. My doula was there. Dane was setting up the room so beautifully getting the candles and the same music. Everything was familiar which was really, for me, what I needed. I lay on my side. That was the position I was most comfortable in, my left side. He read the birth affirmations to me that I prepared. They were filling the birthing bath as things were intensifying because I definitely needed something to help with the pain. 

The whole time, Dane was quite hesitant at the beginning of this whole process to have a doula in the first place and I am so glad that we did, and I think he was so glad we did because she drew him in in such a way that made him such a special part of this. She showed him things that I think he wouldn’t have known and wouldn’t have noticed. I mean, how could you? He’d never been to a birth before. Things like when I was leaning over the bed and I don’t know what it’s called, but there’s a little bulge that appears in the lower back where you almost see the baby descending in the mom‘s pelvis. Just amazing things like that that she was able to show him which was really, really amazing.

So yeah. I was told to empty my bladder before I got in the birthing bath. Again, it was so painful to even walk to the toilet and walk into the birthing bath. But I got in there and my doula just helped me through all of those contractions. I’ll never forget, she kept telling me to open up my palms and not to clench them. It’s quite an interesting thing going through these contractions and just remembering to keep my palms open. 

It was there that I really felt that transcendence. The one thing I didn’t do was a Hypnobirthing course, but I read about it. It wasn’t something I was aiming for, but I went into this really trance-like state. I really did. There were moments when Dane said to me– my eyes were closed pretty much the entire time– but there were moments when I would look at him and he said that it was like I was looking at him but I couldn’t see him. My eyes were glazed over. That was such an added bonus for me because again, being such an anxious person, to be able to achieve that level of trance state was amazing and wonderful.

I couldn’t get it right in the birthing bath. I couldn’t get into a good position. The contractions were coming hard and fast at this point. I even remember saying to Sarah, the midwife, “Can you give me something for the pain? Or is there anything you can give me?” and I think she said, “Darling, I want to do another internal before I give you anything.” I think I just scoffed at her because the thought of having another internal, I was like, “Uh no. No way. I will just deal with it.”

So we continued with no medication at all. She couldn’t really get a good reading of the baby at this stage, so I think they wanted me out of the birthing tub. It was just before I went out that the urge to push just hit me. Like, oh my goodness. It roared out of me and it was just this force that there was no stopping it. I just could not even believe how strong this urge was. But I got out of the birthing bath. I got onto the bed on my side again. I remember my doula whispering in my ear, “Okay. Just listen very carefully to everything Sarah is going to tell you and follow her instructions, okay?” I said, “Okay. I’m going to try.” 

I was in so much pain at this point. That urge to push just kept coming and coming and my midwife, her procedure or her method is quite slow and controlled. She tries to do it in such a way that is a bit slower but my goodness, that force was like it was bigger than me. I remember also that my doula, Liz, was saying, “Okay. Don’t worry about keeping your palms open now. You clench. You bite. You do whatever you have to do to bear down.” My poor husband got the brunt of it. I was clenching his neck, poor guy.

I remember that my hands were flailing above my head and both Sarah and Liz said to me, “Grab the inside of your thigh” or “Grab the back of your knee and pull your head down. Pull that energy downwards,” and my goodness, that made such a difference. I pushed. I think it was about 40 minutes of pushing.

Meagan: That’s not very long.

Danielle: Not long at all. I know women in hospitals are sometimes told, “Don’t push yet. Let’s wait for the doctor,” and that was impossible.

Meagan: Yes.

Danielle: I could not have stopped it even if I tried. I really couldn’t. He came out and I was so excited that I reached down and I grabbed him. The midwife was grabbing him and I was grabbing him, and I pulled him out and obviously wanted to put him on my chest. He had quite a short umbilical cord, so I think he only got to my stomach. But yeah. Then he lay there. 

Thank goodness, he didn’t need any extra medical attention. The energy in the room was just so incredible. As I was getting cleaned up, we were all just talking, laughing, and crying. I think when you go through an experience like that with people– we’d been building this relationship throughout the pregnancy, but once you go through that moment, there’s just this unspeakable connection that’s created between you, the midwife, and the doula. It’s really, really special.

Meagan: Absolutely.

Danielle: I remember once they had weighed him and I had a little rinse in the shower, I was lying skin-to-skin with him and Dane grabbed my face. I remember he kissed me and he said to me, “You did it. You did it.”

Meagan: Aww.

Danielle: He said, “I just want you to remember this moment right now. If ever there is something difficult or something you feel like you can’t do, I just want you to remember that you did this.” I don’t think he realizes how impactful that’s been for me because it was such a huge hurdle to get through and I do. I think about how over the past year because it’s almost been a year since the VBAC, and going through any tough time when I have this uphill battle, I do. I think back on those words, and what he said, and that experience and I let it fill me up, that feeling, because it’s truly one of the most incredible experiences I have ever had, really.

Meagan: That is so amazing. I love it so much and I love that he could say that. Like, “I want you to think about this and remember,” because it is. It’s such an incredible moment. When you say that you go through all these experiences leading up to having the baby and then you have the baby and it’s so much deeper. For me, my team, and the people that were with me that day, there are no words that describe how grateful I am for them and how much I love them and cherish them. I’m sure you will feel the same way forever. It’s so special and it’s so awesome to hear that you had such a great experience.

Danielle: Thank you.

Julie: Yes.

Meagan: Yes.

Danielle: It was amazing.

Cesarean Rates in South Africa

Meagan: So I wanted to talk about a little bit at the beginning where we talked about how high Cesarean rates are. When you described your experience, I feel like you said this or maybe I said it in my head, but you were like, “This was not abnormal. This wasn’t uncommon.” It’s hard to hear that because it sucks. It sucks that it’s not that uncommon. I hope that over time we cannot just be The VBAC Link, but that the world can make these experiences better because obviously, your body was very, very capable of having a vaginal birth.

But yeah. I wanted to talk about some of the main reasons why a Cesarean should happen. Sometimes, Cesareans are very valid. They are very valid and we are grateful for Cesareans. But there are a lot of times when there are things that are said or done and it leaves questions.

But I wanted to talk about some of the biggest reasons why a Cesarean may happen. One of them is failure to progress. The cervix isn’t changing, the baby is not coming down, those types of things. It could be for a whole bunch of different reasons– being induced too early, overwhelming the body and not responding, scar tissue on the cervix, baby, and waters breaking early and maybe not coming down, those types of things. 

And then there are fetal heart problems where our babies’ heart rates aren’t in a safe zone anymore, so the best case is to have a Cesarean. Malpresentation or breech, meaning baby is not in the best position. On a podcast that we did just a week or so ago, she talked about how they confirmed right when they got there that the baby was OP, but then no one ever said anything about it the entire time, and then she pushed for three hours and they were like, “Oh, you have to have a C-section. Your baby is posterior.” And I am curious. I wish I could observe. I wished I could have come there and observed some of this birth to see what their reasons were and where they fit into these.

Based off of friends, what are some of the biggest reasons why people are having C-sections in your area?

Danielle: Yeah. Well, I am so glad you brought this up. This is such a big thing that I wanted to discuss because it’s happening so much here in South Africa. Even moms that I know have reached out to me because they know that I had a VBAC and they recently had emergency C-sections. They didn’t want them. They were led to believe it was the safer and better option and they were like, “Why has this happened to me?” So this is such a big part of why I want to share my story too. I really hope I can reach some people.

So maybe just to give you a bit more background about what is going on in South Africa, you mentioned the C-section rates. A lot of women are actually having elective C-sections in South Africa. A lot of it is due to planning. They want to control the delivery date and a lot of this is based on fear and fearmongering by care providers. I mean honestly, we are led to believe C-sections are safer and better than natural birth. I mean, I heard on a couple of occasions women saying, “Oh, if you have a natural birth, you could really cause some brain damage to your child.”

Meagan: Oh!

Danielle: Honestly, this is our culture and I’m not even kidding. These are the conversations that I have been hearing and there’s just so much misinformation about natural birth. Because we have perpetuated this culture of fear, it’s taking over. It’s being overused. It’s been overprescribed for sure. Elective C-sections are even often routine to women, to mothers in their OB appointments. 

A lot of this has got to do especially with the insurance environment that OBs are working in and I am referring to the medical-legal costs which are extremely high in South Africa if you’re in the private sector. This is definitely having a big influence on intrapartum decision making. There are even so many OBs who are going out of practice and only offering gynecological services, not even deliveries. 

Another big problem is there is such a lack of properly trained staff. There is a huge shortage of trained and qualified midwives in South Africa. Laboring patients in the hospital are often cared for by general nursing staff, not qualified midwives. OBs are getting so scared because of the high level of litigation that they are covering every base. They are covering every base. They are doing every test. Just to give you an idea, in my first pregnancy that was led by an OB, I had about 12 to 14 ultrasounds. 12 to 14.

Meagan: Woah.

Danielle: With the midwife, I had about 5 or 6. Just to give you an idea of how they are just putting everything on record. They don’t want to miss a thing or miss a beat. I mean, it’s standard now to have a test for gestational diabetes without any history of diabetes. So it’s really, really interesting what is going on, I have to say. And a lot of the gynies– I know you call them OBs, sorry– we call them gynies.

Meagan: It’s okay. They’re gynecologists too.

Danielle: There we go. A lot of them, even though they themselves are pro-natural birth, they are operating in hospitals that have stringent protocols in place that are saying– in the hospital that I gave birth in the first time, I heard through the grapevine they are no longer doing natural births. They will not. They will not. They’re only doing C-sections. I don’t know how, but this is what I heard. I was digging around.

So what’s happening is, you know we talk a lot about interventions during birth and this cascade of interventions, but there are also a lot of interventions that are happening during pregnancy leading up to the birth. I’m talking about the kind of things that start to play on your emotions, like almost playing mind games with you. They really are. I mean, I know that I am, like I said, a typical case. My gynie was so pro-natural. Everything was cool. Nothing was wrong the whole pregnancy, and then the bait-and-switch started. That’s what we call it, the bait-and-switch. You know, you start hearing things like, “The placenta is calcifying. Baby is not moving or descending. There are no signs of labor.” Again, routinely now, women are having internals done at 37 weeks pregnant. Something I didn’t know at the time.

Meagan: Is that an internal ultrasound?

Danielle: No, just an—

Meagan: Oh, a cervical exam.

Danielle: Cervical exam, yeah.

Meagan: Okay.

Danielle: And of course, at that stage, do you expect any cervical changes at 37 weeks? Not really. You are not full term, you know? You are not full term. So those things start to discourage you like, “Oh no. Nothing is happening. Oh, maybe I am not going to go into labor or things are not right.” We’ve seen it. 

I have heard this in so many different forms where they say that giving birth is like making love for a woman. It’s the feeling that she has to feel, the state of being she has to be in physiologically, mind, body, and soul to relax, give in, and let her body just be. And when your mind is being played in such a way, you can’t get there. You cannot get there. 

That’s exactly what happened to me. My body, I know, didn’t do what it needed to do because it didn’t feel safe to do so. It didn’t feel safe. I was very afraid and I know that this is happening to so many women. It’s quite a thing I have to say that’s going on here. It’s really, really quite a thing.

Meagan: It’s so interesting. It reminds me so much of Brazil. I mean, in different ways. They have different reasons why they do C-sections there because that’s actually a sign of wealth which is crazy, right? It’s a sign of wealth to have a C-section in Brazil from what we have been told.

Danielle: That’s crazy.

Meagan: It’s so crazy.

Julie: Yeah, of privilege and being like you have enough money for people to take care of you, so you don’t need to bother by–

Meagan: –having a vaginal birth.

Julie: –going through all of the trouble of having a vaginal birth. It’s just a cultural mindset shift.

Meagan: Yeah. It’s fascinating to me. It really is. Like you said, I wonder how these docs are getting away with just scheduling C-sections, especially for first-time moms that have no previous C-sections. It’s disheartening to hear and hopefully like I said, they will come around and one day here we will see a shift in the medical system.

Danielle: I really hope so. And you know, I think that is why– I mean, a VBAC is not a common thing in South Africa because as you said in the beginning, you are working against the system. You really are working against it. But you know, as with any system, there are cracks in the system. You have got to find them, you have got to work around them, and you have got to fight to get the birth experience that you want because the odds are not in your favor, unfortunately. But I think the more women who push for it and fight for it, then the more we can normalize natural birth in this country.

Meagan: Yep. Yeah. Well, it sounds like you are going to be a bigger impact than you even know in your community and I am so grateful that all of the people in your community have you. We are so grateful for your story and I am hopeful that people will listen to this and feel like they can find the tools that they need to get a birth that they deserve and that they want.

Julie: Yeah. I absolutely love that. We appreciate you for sharing your story. It was incredible. We love the journey and my goodness, all the way around the world in South Africa. It’s incredible. We appreciate you for being here with us today.

Danielle: Thank you so much. This was great.

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

You’ve researched, prepared, and achieved your VBAC, but now what? 

We are diving deep into all things postpartum today with New Boss Mom, Kallista Anderson. Kallista shares her expertise with us on how to thrive during the postpartum period.

Topics include:

Strengthening your relationships

Kallista’s number one postpartum tip

Investing in yourself

Warning signs and resources for postpartum depression 

Continue advocating for your needs even after your baby is born. 

You deserve to enjoy this season and your baby deserves to have the best version of yourself! 

 

Additional links

New Mom Boss Kallista Anderson

Prepping For Postpartum Workshop

Meal Train Website

Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale

Postpartum Support International

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. I am so excited today to talk about postpartum. Julie and I have partnered up with Kallista Anderson who, if you don’t already know, you should know. She has her podcast, The New Mom Boss Podcast, and she is amazing. She is helping mamas get through all the things by preparing, self-care, creating a good space, learning about postpartum, and coaching all the things. 

So today, we are going to be talking with her about postpartum and a few different types of things about postpartum: navigating through relationships in postpartum and then also prepping for after and being prepared. 

Before we do that, I am going to turn over the time to Julie, and then we are going to dive right in because I think this is such an important topic that honestly isn’t talked about enough.

Review of the Week

Julie: Yeah. I’m excited too. Postpartum, my goodness. We don’t talk about that enough here and society doesn’t talk about it as much just generally. So we are glad to have Kallista here with us today. 

Our review today comes from Apple Podcasts and it is from jenh415. She says, “I don’t feel alone in this journey anymore.” Her review says, “I started planning my VBAC two years ago right after I had my son. My Cesarean left me with lots of negative feelings and thoughts about myself and birth in general. I just knew that I needed to have a chance to have my dream birth. I found your podcast at almost 14 weeks pregnant–” and she is now 18 weeks. Oh, this was left in July. Let’s see. 

“--and immediately dove in headfirst. When I first started listening, I couldn’t make it through five minutes of an episode without bawling my eyes out. With the help of my midwife and your empowering podcast, I now feel like I am headed in the right direction. Being able to hear so many different stories lets me know that I am not alone in this journey. No matter how my second birth story ends, I know that I will be in control and the experience is going to be completely different. I am forever grateful to the two of you for creating such a positive space for us mamas.”

Oh, I love that so much. That makes me happy. It really is good reviews like this that help keeps us going. So thank you so much for leaving this review, jenh415. If you haven’t already, please, we would love to hear what you think about the podcast or anything else about The VBAC Link that has helped you on your journey. You can leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Facebook, Google, or anywhere that you can leave a review.

New Mom Boss Kallista Anderson

Meagan: All right. Okay. We are so excited, you guys. So again, Kallista Anderson with New Mom Boss. You can find her on Instagram and thenewmomboss.com. We are so excited to hear what she has to say today. But I have to give a little plug-in before we even begin and I am probably going to remind you after because I would highly suggest taking her workshop. She has got a four-day– you said four-day, right? I think?

Kallista: Yes.

Meagan: Okay, yes. A four-day workshop is kicking off on June 3rd. So we will make sure in the show notes right here to be posting the link to register. It’s a postpartum workshop and I think it is such a valuable tool. 

We were talking about it before we pressed record for the podcast, but I feel like in the VBAC community, especially– I mean, definitely all around the world– but in the VBAC world specifically, we are so focused on the birth, on how to get the birth of our dreams, the birth that we want, how to change the experience from what we had last time, how to heal from trauma. We are working so hard on all of that and when it comes to postpartum, I feel like sometimes, we tend to forget about it, and then postpartum comes and we are like, “Woah.” We are in this space that we haven’t really prepared with and then we are kind of rolling with it. I would love to hear, I am so excited to hear all of the tools and things that we can learn to help make the postpartum experience just as great as the birth experience.

So without further ado, we are going to turn the time over to Kallista and hear what she has to say. I think the first topic we are talking about is strengthening our relationship during the postpartum period.

Strengthening Relationships

Kallista: Yes. Hey ladies. Thank you again so much for having me on your show. I’ve been looking to come on your podcast and yes, I believe what you guys are providing is so valuable also. But yes, the postpartum part is my passion. Like you mentioned, a lot of times we are focused on the birth. For me, most of my audience are first-time moms who are focused on the first time having the baby and all the preparation for the baby, which is wonderful and so needed, but then we kind of cut our planning short up to when the baby is born. 

Then we enter the postpartum period or the fourth trimester, which we sometimes call the time for the afterbirth period. The baby, but also Mama goes through her own fourth trimester. That basically is the first three months after having the baby. As you probably know very well, it’s kind of the messy middle before you get settled into new motherhood. And so that is what I teach about and what I coach on. I have courses on that. I try to catch my mamas while they are pregnant so that we can prepare for the postpartum period.

So that workshop coming up is exactly that. It’s called Prepping For Postpartum. But it’s open to postpartum mamas as well because it’s the same ideas, concepts, and preparation that we are doing whether you are pregnant or already have your baby. The only advantage of doing it while you are pregnant is that it does make that transition a little easier when you’ve already planned these things out. The relationship piece is one of the biggest pieces in that postpartum period which I am excited to talk about.

Meagan: Yeah. We are excited to hear about it because like you said, totally. We have clients that thought after having a baby and then hiring a doula, they talked about, “I didn’t know. I didn’t even know about the fourth trimester. I didn’t even know.” And you hear about it and it’s like, okay. We need to do better. We need to do better because I know that there are other countries out there that are so trained in focusing on that postpartum so much that they have crews come in, and families are supported, and tribes that take care of these moms and these babies for months even after birth and it’s just not like that here. 

In the US, we have moms going back to work within weeks, just a few weeks after birth. Like you said, we are still transitioning and we are going through so much and so, yeah. I am excited. What tips would you give to someone listening, especially someone so heavily preparing for birth, on navigating through and preparing for this postpartum period and maybe even understanding the postpartum period a little bit better?

Kallista: Great. And maybe a lot of your listeners aren’t first-time moms, but they already know how hard it is the first time around. It does get easier with each round of having babies, but if you are not thinking about some of these things that I will talk about, you may get— you know that saying, “You don’t know what you don’t know,” and you just kind of keep doing things the way you did it before. If you had a difficult time the first time around and you are not taking the time to figure things out for the second time, you may just have another difficult time.

For me, just a quick backstory of how I started this is I had always wanted to be a mom. You know, the dolls, and I just knew I wanted to be a mom, a young mom. Although it took a little while, I was so ready. I did all of the things, bought all of the stuff, had a beautiful Pinterest nursery, and washed all of the clothes. The baby came and I had such difficulty with breastfeeding, and my relationship with my husband felt strange and strained at the same time in the first few weeks. That was a shock on top of the sleep deprivation, trying to get breastfeeding right, and all that stuff. 

And so I was trying to feel my way into it and do just one day at a time, but it was really hard. And then at four months, I found out I was pregnant again.

Meagan: Oh.

Kallista: Well, do the math and don’t judge, but–

Meagan: No, that’s just shocking, right?

Kallista: Right!

Meagan: Julie actually had her babies close together too.

Julie: Yeah, I just say, “Don’t do the math,” too.

Kallista: They’re not quite Irish twins, but they’re 13 months apart. Yeah. It was hard enough for me the first time around that I was like, “This isn’t going to happen again.” And so I did a whole inventory of what I did and what I didn’t do, and how I could make things better, and so I had a beautiful second-time experience. That’s when I started sharing it with my friends and then slowly, it became a business where I am helping more than just the people around me, like, people all over the world– the Internet, you know?

For most people, maybe that isn’t their thing where they are going to sit down and think of all the things they can do better, or just make things easier for themselves for the next time around, because if that’s not where your focus is, you are just going to do it again, right?

So that’s how I got into this and because of my difficulties breastfeeding, I became a Certified Lactation Counselor. Also, the other thing is that I am a registered nurse and my husband is a doctor.

Meagan: Yes. Yes. I was going to say, I didn’t even mention that you are an RN, so we have a medical professional too.

Kallista: I think both of us coming from a medical background had a little bit of medical arrogance like, “We’ve got this.” You know? And it’s not even the medical stuff that matters. I mean, it matters, but for the most part, our babies were healthy. There was nothing medically needed. It was that practical setting up of your life and the day-to-day things, and the communication, and all of these things that you don’t think about when you are preparing your registry, or when you are having your baby shower, or at your OB visits, or midwife visits. 

Well, maybe midwives. I love midwives and I feel like they take a little more time to talk to you, but nobody checks in and says, “Oh, how is your household going to be?” or “How is your relationship going to be? Have you talked about that?”

Meagan: Yeah, or even just, “What is your plan after for sleeping, and meals, and all of these things?”

Kallista: Mhmm, yeah. The things we take for granted before, the easiest things before having a baby like showering, eating a meal, doing all these little things, changing out of your clothes. They are like big projects in the first few weeks because you are recovering from birth, you’re lacking sleep, and you’re still trying to get a handle on breastfeeding, especially your first time around. And so you’re juggling all of these things and everything gets put on the back burner. You put yourself on the back burner, you put your partner on the back burner, and your household.

And so preparing for all of these different parts of your life ahead of time is going to allow you to just be more present with your baby. You get to recover and heal without the stress of juggling everything else around you. Like I mentioned, doing it during pregnancy is great, but if you’re in your postpartum already, it’s still very doable. It just takes a little time to think about what you need, and then to talk to your partner.

So today, we want to talk about preparing the relationship, right? I don’t know about you ladies, but that was definitely not something we talked about ahead of time.

Meagan: No. Not at all.

Kallista: No, right? The conversations are about what names we are going to have and just the fun stuff which is wonderful and I’m not saying to throw that out at all. But we have to talk about the real-life stuff. The dynamics of the relationship are going to change especially with your first baby because you don’t know what you’re getting into yet. And then of course with each baby, it does change the family dynamics with every child.

So that would be my first tip. Preparing your relationship for the arrival of the baby is talking about how your relationship is going to change. Even that single question can just open a whole bunch of other questions like, “What do you think is going to change? What would you like to keep?” because it’s not going to be the same. Date nights aren’t going to be as easy to do, especially for the first little while. Carving out the time is not as easily done.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Kallista: Not forgetting each other. The baby is taken care of. Mamas know how to take care of babies and then the concentric circles that go out– your family, your friends, or whoever is helping you, the caregivers, so I am usually not worried about the baby. Even first-time moms are worried about doing newborn care. So much of that is instinctive, but it’s the paying attention to your relationship with your partner and with yourself that is not very much in our orbit, or the top of mine, you know?

Meagan: Mhmm. You know, when I was preparing for birth, and I am kind of going to really all of it, like, first baby, second baby, everything. I just feel like I was in my own world. I would talk to my husband. Like, “I was studying this” or “I read this” or “Oh, it’s fine. This is the size of the baby. This is what is going on,” but I was so in my own world that I don’t even know just looking back, right? 

My youngest kid is almost 6, but I don’t even know if I even included my husband. Not purposely like, “I don’t want to include him,” but in my thoughts, and in my preparation, or anything. I don’t know. I don’t think I really consciously, I don’t know. I just didn’t. Is that weird? Is that common? Do we, as women preparing for birth, just think, “Oh, this is happening to my body, so I am preparing and this is what is going on,” but I don’t really talk about it, you know? Yeah.

Kallista: I think so. I can relate to that. I remember especially during my first pregnancy, I was glued to that app. I think it was the Pampers app and another birth app where–

Meagan: Baby Bump?

Kallista: The updates where it has turned into a different fruit–

Meagan: Yep. Yep. Yep, I think it was like Baby Bump or something like that. “Your baby is a mango” or whatever, you know? I am like, “Oh. That is so cool,” thinking about it and then I totally just probably ignored him. So much of that, you know?

Kallista: Yeah. I think that the thing with husbands and partners is that they have a totally different experience. They know that it’s mostly about Mama and they kind of just accept that they are not going to be the focus of attention. It’s so funny because a few weeks ago– two of my friends had babies recently and we all went to go see the babies. I asked the dads, “So how are you? How is it going with the new addition?” I asked them separately and they were each caught off guard. “You are asking about me?” They didn’t even know how to answer. They were like, “I don’t know. She is doing all the breastfeeding. I’m okay.” You know? 

They are having an experience, but they are not in tune. We are just wired differently, but what I like to encourage is to be more connected and to be thought of. That is one of the things I coach new moms or pregnant moms. The biggest tool I like to use is the love language.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Kallista: Knowing what your love language is and what your partner‘s love language is allows you to communicate your love at any time, but especially in the postpartum when you are each focused on different things. The baby, for sure, and for a lot of men, it’s providing, so they get more focused on work. They feel helpless that they can’t breastfeed the baby or the baby just wants mom. So there is a lot. They feel very helpless. 

I read a study that shows that men also experience postpartum depression, but it’s just never looked at. They don’t seek help. They just kind of white-knuckle it and just stay on the ride until it’s over, but that is not helpful to the relationship, right?

Meagan: Yeah, totally. Totally and as a doula, something that I really want to focus on in my prenatals is Dad too. Like you said, they kind of accept that they are not the ones giving birth and all these things, but they do. They play a really important role in this day and they go through a lot themselves. And so I like to, as a doula, try to focus on, “Okay, how do you feel? What do you want for this birth? What are your personal goals to get out of birth and this experience?”

We do talk about postpartum and say like, “What are your plans? What helps you? What do you need when you are tired?” Because dads are tired too. So anyway, yeah. I love it. That’s awesome.

Kallista: Yeah. And most women, we are just more naturally, I don’t know, in tune with our community. We like community and we like to tell our friends how we are feeling. Men don’t do that for the most part. Right? So they don’t have a postpartum dad community. I mean, we barely have one for the moms, so it’s almost nonexistent for the dads.

So I like to reel the dads in a little bit and have them be a part of the conversation as they are preparing for the baby. And then in the postpartum period, using those tools like the love language and how to carve time out for each other even when you don’t have a babysitter. Things like that, and setting a date night. 

This is one of the things I tell my clients to do is to set a date night. Whatever your due date is, add maybe three, four, or five weeks after that, and just put it in the calendar as a date night so that you don’t forget about it. You can always readjust as that day comes, but I am the type of person that if it’s not in the calendar, weeks and weeks or months and months might go by and I will be like, “Oh my gosh. I haven’t done X or Y or Z.”

And so that is one way to stay connected and have something to look forward to in the postpartum period or in that fourth trimester.

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. I love that so much. Also, maybe we can help them find their community before because sometimes we are going to be tired and maybe even a little checked out, and it will be great if we can help them find a solid community or even just someone to chat with when they are tired and frustrated because of whatever that is happening. So I love that.

What are some number one tips for postpartum in general? If you were like, “If you don’t have time for anything, make time for these things.”

Number One Tip

Kallista: My number one tip is to have a meal train in the postpartum period.

Meagan: Yes.

Kallista: A lot of women, not just women, people, our culture in general– we want to be self-sufficient. We want to be superwomen and we want to take how we are in our careers a lot of the time like, “I did this” and accomplishments, and take that into motherhood where motherhood shouldn’t be done alone. It’s a transition of learning how to ask for help and receive help. And so I have found when I tell new moms or pregnant moms about the meal train, they feel like, “Oh. I don’t know. I don’t want to really ask my friends for that.”

Meagan: Yes. I know! Yes.

Kallista: Right?

Meagan: Like, “Oh, I don’t want to put people out.”

Kallista: Yeah. And so in my packages, I offer to do that for them because they don’t want it to come from them and so that takes a little bit of the guilt off of them. But you can also just ask a friend to organize it for you. I use mealtrain.com. All you do is collect your friends’ and families' emails and whoever is organizing it for you can just input all of that, and then you just pick dates.

I recommend having a meal train for at least a month. The first two weeks, I would say, you are on a high with just a lot of adrenaline and you don’t feel the sleep deprivation, and then after that, it’s cumulative like, “Oh my god.” All those several or two weeks or longer worth of only two to three hours of sleep just come down like a ton of bricks. And so I like to set it up for at least four weeks.

And nowadays, it’s never been easier, right? There is this platform where people don’t even have to go to your house. They can either order delivery or they can send a gift card, like a GrubHub card. The other beautiful thing about that platform is that if you do have friends and family nearby and you have some tasks in your household that you could use some help with, like walking your dogs, or taking out the trash cans if your partner isn’t able to for whatever reason, just anything that can alleviate and take things off your plate for a few weeks– this is a temporary time. 

So I guess the biggest message around that is, don’t be afraid to ask because it’s not like you are going to rely on them forever. You truly do need that help for the first several weeks and Meal Train allows you to do that. You can set scheduled tasks there and people can assign themselves the different tasks that you need help with.

Meagan: Yeah. I love that so, so much. The thing is that these people are asking. It’s hard because I also wish we could change how our culture asks. Like, “Oh, if you need anything, let me know. I am here for you.” Sometimes it makes it kind of like, “Well, I don’t really know what I could ask for and I feel bad asking.” Instead, it’s just like, do it. 

And so even telling our community about these things, like this website, this platform, where it’s like, “This is what I need.” Don’t be scared to ask people for help because they honestly want to. People really do want to.

Kallista: Yes. Right after the baby is born, everybody loves it when a baby is born. Everyone is so excited for you and so happy that I say to milk that time because it’s not forever. I think it’s because we are naturally wired that way. We are supposed to live in villages and help each other. It’s just not how we live anymore, but I think the instincts are there. We just have to remember that we are social animals and we are supposed to help each other. 

We weren’t actually made to live in single-family homes. We are supposed to live with our family. I love living this life, don’t get me wrong. I love having our own home, just my own little family, but when it comes to raising a child, especially right after birth and having a new baby, definitely lean on your community. The more you lean on them, the better you will be as a mom because you cannot do it alone. 

It’s not that you cannot do it alone because you can, but you won’t be as happy because if you are too tired, you are not going to be the kind of mom that you want to be for your baby. You want to reserve that energy for your baby, so let other people lift you up and carry you for the next 12 weeks, that fourth trimester, that postpartum period.

Allow people to help you. Sometimes, the biggest barrier is just allowing people to help you.

Meagan: Yes. I love what you just said. You are like, “Lean into this. Allow this to happen. Allow people to love you and serve you,” because like I said, they really want to. It reminded me of one time, I went to a client’s postpartum. So as a doula, we do a couple of prenatals. We go to the birth and then after, I love to– sorry. My dog is deciding to have a conversation as well over here.

So we like to go and serve them and take that hour and a half while we are there to do whatever that means. If that is housecleaning, if that is nursing help, if that is cleaning toilets because family is coming in town and you don’t feel like cleaning toilets, great. We want to serve you during that time. But there was one time when I went over to do that visit and there was a list on the door. She had a screen door and so it was kind of just on her door. I was reading it as I was waiting for her to come to the door and I thought it was brilliant. 

It said something to the effect of, “Hi, everybody! We are so happy you are here to see us and meet Baby so and so. While you are here if you would not mind, these are things that would benefit and help us tremendously.” She had a little checklist like, “take out the trash, sweep my floor” and all of these little things. She was just like, yeah. My people come in and we visit, and it’s so great, and they leave, and my floor is now clean, and I don’t feel like I have to hold the baby and vacuum. My husband doesn’t feel like he has to tackle the kids and get them to bed and then now vacuuming is too late because the kids are sleeping. He doesn’t want the kids to wake up. 

And I was just like, “Wow. Good for her. That is what we need to lean into and not be scared of doing and saying, “These things would be greatly appreciated. I love that you are here. I am so grateful to you if you wouldn’t mind helping me with these things.”

Kallista: Yes. Yes, I love that. I love that idea as well. I also recommend that to new moms. The other thing I like to add on that note is especially in the early, early weeks, the first few weeks when you have visitors, you actually need a lot of rest those first few weeks, right? I know from myself that once I get chitchatting with my girlfriend, I love it so much that we will be talking for two hours or three hours later after she arrives when I really planned for an hour visit. 

And so that’s another thing I like to add to that door note is, “I am going to want to talk to you forever, but remind me that I need to rest after an hour because I can go on and on.” We crave that adult conversation, but then we forget like, “Oh yeah, I forgot. Tonight, I am not going to sleep, actually, once the baby wakes up in the middle of the night.”

Meagan: Exactly like, “I love hanging out with you, but I probably should be sleeping while I am holding my sleeping baby.” Yeah. I love that. Please keep the visits limited and that is okay to do. It really, really is okay to do. It’s also okay to say, “Hey, will you hold my baby and love on my baby for a second while I go take a quick nap?”

Kallista: Mhmm, yes.

Meagan: It’s okay to say that.

Kallista: You want a nap. You want a shower.

Meagan: Shower, yeah.

Kallista: Those three things I was like– I am very lucky that my mom lives two blocks away.

Meagan: That is lucky.

Kallista: I would call her, “Can you come over so I can shower? Can you come over and hold the baby so I can eat really quick?” And she would. She did that for the first couple of months. It was so great.

Meagan: That is so, so awesome. I don’t know how much you talk about postpartum doulas, but there are doulas who are specifically there for postpartum help. They come in and they do the cleaning, and they can bring baby in the middle of the night to you so you don’t have to even exert your energy to get up and go into the other room, right? They can take the other kids. They can take the other kids to the zoo, or to the park, or for a walk, or go out on their bikes, so you and baby can nap. These are all services. 

It is so hard because there are so many things in life right now, especially these days, right? Money and things are so expensive and it’s hard. It’s hard to spend the money, or feel like that might be valuable, or to even justify it, but if you look at the long term and you say, “Okay. I can hire this postpartum help or I can sign up for this postpartum workshop to get the tools,” is going to seriously help you in the end. It will all be worth it, and then two years down the road, you will be like, “Yeah. It was totally worth whatever amount of money I spent because I had a really awesome experience and I was really able to bond with my baby, be present with my kids, and be the person I know I am– not super, super exhausted and so spent because I was able to lean in on this help.”

Invest in Yourself

Kallista: Yes. You bring up a really good point. That is the other thing. A lot of us, in the beginning, have trouble accepting help even if it’s free help. The other thing is investing in ourselves. My husband and don’t take big family vacations. We actually love investing in things in our family. So we do have a lot of support as far as nannies go and things to make things easier for us like having someone else garden for us or whatever. That’s just how we choose to invest. An investment isn’t always a return on investment as far as money and financial returns. We think about our mental health, our joy, and our comfort. 

And so I think it’s good to remember, especially in the postpartum period, that it is the perfect time to invest in yourself because for the mamas who already have babies, you already know how hard the fourth trimester is, right? What would you give to be yourself to make it easier the next time so that would be the best mama you want to be for your baby and the best partner for your husband? 

I believe the mom sets the tone in the home. When the mom is down, it affects everything, right? We are the queens of our castles and when we are not at our best, it affects how we care for our baby, how we are when our partners are around, or when they come home, and so on and so forth.

Meagan: Yep. Definitely. Definitely. Oh my goodness. Now my dog is barking. I love that though. Invest in yourselves and love yourselves.

Kallista: Mhmm. Definitely. We get so focused on loving the baby which is so natural. You don’t even have to worry. That is there already. It’s the focus on self-care, healing, and getting the support and the love for yourself from your community and the people around you who can help you. That’s what, if you have time to gather that and to put those resources in place, that will definitely make your transition into motherhood, whether it’s your first baby, second baby, third baby, whatever, you will just have a better experience and bond with yourself, your baby, and your partner.

Postpartum Depression: Warning Signs and Resources

Julie: That’s great advice. I love it. One thing that I am passionate about, or maybe sensitive to about, during the postpartum stage is– my gosh. After my second, I had pretty bad postpartum depression and anxiety. Can we talk a little bit about what some of the warning signs are for parents or for even birth partners to look out for in their partners so that people can know when it might be appropriate to get a little more help outside of their community, their friends, or their support system? I know that it’s not something we talk about very often, but it is something that a lot of women face– some sort of postpartum mood disorder in that fourth trimester. 

What are some things you should be looking out for? When should we seek additional help like reaching out to a therapist or maybe a family care provider to get on medication or things like that?

Kallista: Yeah, I’m so glad you asked that question. There is a really short quiz called the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale and I can shoot you guys the link later to share with your audience.

Julie: Yeah. We will put it in our show notes.

Kallista: Yes. So this scale is recommended to be taken during pregnancy around somewhere in the third trimester, so 28-32 weeks. Around there, or just any time you hear about this if you’re pregnant. And then you take it again 6-8 weeks postpartum. That way, you have a baseline and see where you lie on the scale before you have the baby, and then you retake it and you see if there is a change. If it’s the same, then you’re probably okay. But I would still look out for signs of a lot of crying and sadness when you don’t really know what you are sad about. Those are some telltale signs.

It is very common. There are postpartum blues, which are even more common. It’s just that sad feeling that usually goes away on its own, but a more severe feeling of that is going to be the postpartum depression and that scale is going to help you determine that. I encourage partners to take it as well because it is on the rise. Maybe it was always there, but we are just now learning about it or putting our attention on it.

Julie: Yeah. I am really glad that you brought that up because we often think about postpartum depression and mood disorders in relation to the mother, but a lot of times it can affect the dad and other birth partners as well, and it’s something that we don’t even notice or talk about. So I’m glad that more awareness is being brought to that. I know that sometimes, the first person to notice that something is out of whack with their partner is the partner. My husband noticed it in me before I started noticing these things in myself.

And so I always like to talk about that in my postpartum visits like Meagan was saying. Going over some of those things and going over some of those signs that you need to be watching out for so you can be aware because help is out there. Sometimes it’s a little bit harder to find, but I think reaching out and just acknowledging that you may need a little bit more help, that’s okay.

There’s always help out there for you. If you can’t find help, then there’s this great group called Postpartum Support International as well. Also, all of the great resources that Kallista offers. That’s another great resource that’s available for parents as well.

Kallista: Right. I had a very similar experience, actually. I had postpartum depression after my third which was a shock to me because I didn’t have it the first two times and I don’t have a history of depression, not that you need it, but I just don’t normally have those kinds of feelings. It was also my husband who noticed that I was just so down and crying. He was like, “I think you are depressed,” and I was like, “Oh my god.” I was such in a fog still because it was three to four weeks after the baby. My recovery with the third one was the hardest because he was almost 10 pounds and it was just a different experience than the first two.

And so yeah. I went to go see my OB and I just told her, “I think I have postpartum depression” and she was like, “Oh, okay. Do you want something for that?” I don’t have anything against taking medication, but she didn’t even try to ask me. That was the straight solution and I said, “I want to wait,” and I went to my therapist. We have this therapist that we used to use as a couple, which I highly recommend too for any couple. I think it can only add to your marriage or your relationship when you have a third party who is skilled in communicating.

Anyhow, I went back to her. We talked it out and everything, and I felt better. But also, that was also the same time when I was sleep training my baby and just getting more sleep immediately helped that, and then the talk therapy and just doing all of the self-care stuff. It got me out of that postpartum depression. But I know for some people, you definitely need above and beyond that. That’s why it’s good to go to somebody who is skilled in not just medication, but also therapy because I think you need it all. You want the options of it all.

Julie: Yes, absolutely. I agree. Therapy plus medication can be a great combination. Some people just need one or the other, but if your provider is offering you medication only, that’s not inherently a bad option, but I would advise you to seek out therapy on your own because medication has proven to be a lot more effective when it is combined with therapy as well and vice versa too sometimes. So yeah. Great options are available out there.

Meagan: Yeah. I actually had a similar experience, but my postpartum stuff, I would say, started kicking in probably around month nine, actually, but I didn’t really feel it. I didn’t really recognize or accept it until 12 months. It was so late and so I just didn’t think of baby blues or postpartum depression. I was like, “Yeah, I’m not postpartum anymore. I am almost a year out. This isn’t postpartum.” My husband was like, “You are not okay.” And I was like, “Yeah. I’m fine. It’s fine.” He was like, “No. You’re not okay.” 

And so I also went to my doctor and he was like, “Oh, here’s some medication,” and I was just like, “But what’s happening?” You know? I don’t know. He didn’t really talk to me or anything. He was just like, “Here. Here are some pills. You can start taking them.” And again, nothing against pills, like absolutely fine, but I just wanted more. “This is what I believe you are experiencing. These are some options that we could try.”

And so I went home and I just was crying and I was like, “Am I really experiencing this?” My husband was like, “Yeah. It sounds like it.” I was like, “Oh.” He was like, “Why don’t we figure this out? What can we do?” We found out that I was losing myself. I didn’t know where I belonged anymore. I was suddenly a mom which was amazing, don’t get me wrong. I love being a mom. But I went from being this big social butterfly, I had a job 9-5, I did what I wanted when I wanted and then all of a sudden, I was being run, in my head, by this baby on the schedule of this baby, and then I quit my job so I could be with my baby, which I am so grateful for, but at the same time, I lost my social outlet.

So I was just really, really struggling and I found a barre class, an exercise barre class and I realized that I needed me time. Circling back to what we were talking about in the beginning, I also needed my husband time because I no longer felt like we were a married couple. I felt like we were roommates who shared a baby in the house. It was the weirdest feeling. And so I feel like it is so important along the way to tap into it and not be scared to say, “I am not okay and I need to talk to someone,” whether that’s an OB, whether that’s a midwife, whether that’s a therapist, whether that’s whoever, it’s okay. It’s okay to again, lean in, talk, let it out, and work through it because like I said, it was around nine months, but then nine, ten, eleven, twelve. I went for months and it just got worse, and worse, and worse. 

I hate that in this world, we feel like we have to suppress it or we have to feel alone because we don’t. We can get help and there are people out there for us.

Kallista: Mhmm and kudos to our husbands for catching it.

Meagan: Seriously though, yeah.

Julie: Bless their hearts.

Meagan: Like Julie said, yes. And then what I didn’t even realize until I was preparing for my VBAC was that my husband had trauma himself and issues that he was still holding onto from my first baby’s birth years and years ago. And so it’s just, yeah. It’s important to talk with our partners and really let it out. Sometimes, we don’t know why we are crying and that’s okay if we don’t know why we are crying or we don’t know why we are upset, but let it out and get it out. 

And use our resources because like you said, that world makes it so easy. It does really make it so easy. I mean, there are even therapists that help online. You don’t even have to go out of your house.

Kallista: Everything is at our fingertips.

Meagan: It really is, but for some reason, we don’t like to use the resources that we have sometimes. We are hesitant. And so, yeah. I think it’s just so important that we use them, accept them, and we love ourselves enough. Love yourself enough to not only prepare for your birth, and to prepare during your pregnancy, and treat yourself and your baby great during pregnancy, but also treat yourself great in the postpartum because that will make you a better parent, too. There’s a saying, “Happy wife, happy life”. It’s the same. A happy, healthy mom is going to be the best you. You are going to be the best you if you can take care of yourself.

Kallista: Right. Right. And we can start modeling that now. I mean, I know babies don’t know that we are taking care of ourselves right away, but if we start practicing that and doing the self-care and just making that a habit, then it’s just going to make your experience as a mom even more beautiful because you’re not running yourself ragged. You know what they say on the plane, “Put the oxygen mask on yourself before you put the oxygen mask on anybody else,” right? We need our cups to be filled first so that they can run over.

Meagan: Absolutely. And honestly, we are setting an example to our children, like you said. The babies don’t really recognize it right away, but in the long run, they are going to see because if we can set this mentality and carry it through our lives as we are raising our children, they are going to see how important that is and they are going to do the same thing.

Kallista: Yeah. And actually, my kids love that my husband and I have a good relationship. They clap and they tell us to kiss because whenever we do, I guess it makes them feel secure. And so when you give a little more attention to your relationship and your kids see that, it gives them more comfort and security as a family. That can start right from the beginning.

I think maybe that’s why they do feel that way because we’ve done a pretty good job. We’ve had our bumps and that’s why we went to therapy early on. Having kids back-to-back was a little straining on our relationship, but we figured it out and I am grateful we are just open to the outside help and that we don’t have to figure it out all alone. Of course, it starts with us too and we both have to be on the same page, but then using the resources that we have access to has been so great for our family. And really, it did start at the beginning.

New Mom Boss Workshop

Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh. I loved this. This has been so great and I truly do believe that it’s going to be valuable to all of our listeners. So I wanted to remind them that kicking off on June 3rd, 2022, you have a four-day workshop and they can register. You can find the link in our show notes or do you want to give them the information that they can register at on your website?

Kallista: Yeah. It’s going to be on https://www.newmomboss.com/pfp-workshop.

Meagan: Workshop. Okay. Right now there is a waitlist, but you are opening up when? So we can start telling all of our people?

Kallista: Sure. So the registration will open on May 16th and if you are listening to this after, then it’s probably open already. Yeah. So it’s opening on May 16th and then we get to work. We will have a little pre-party on June 3rd and then go into the workshop over the weekend because I have found there are a lot of working mamas and the weekend works best. So we are going to do it starting on June 3rd, and then it’s going to be a four-day workshop after that. 

We will prepare as much as we can before the baby arrives, but like I said before, if you are already in postpartum, a lot of the same things will apply to the postpartum period if you are already in it and it will just make your experience in the postpartum period that much better.

Meagan: Awesome. Thank you so much for being with us today and sharing your wealth of knowledge. Again, like I said, if you haven’t followed her yet, go follow her right now. You can find her on Instagram, @newmomboss, and I am sure she has got all of the things that you are going to love.

Kallista: Thank you so much, Julie and Meagan. I have been looking forward to coming on your show and I appreciate you guys taking the time to chat with me.

Meagan: Thank you.

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“When she saw that I couldn’t speak, she spoke up for me.”

Though her first birth felt wildly out of control, Daniela learned her first lessons in how to speak up in the birth space by pushing for pain relief during her Cesarean even when she wasn’t initially believed. 

During her VBAC preparation, Daniela’s confidence just kept growing. Yet though she was confident, she knew she couldn’t only rely on herself. So with her husband and a trusted doula by her side, Daniela was able to keep her focus on laboring and achieve the VBAC she envisioned.

Advocating for yourself in the birth space can feel scary, but Meagan and Julie discuss how to help you feel strong enough in your desires and courageous enough to make sure they are honored during your VBAC.

Additional links

Benefits of a Doula for Pregnancy, Birth, & Beyond

VBAC Friendly Doctors: How to Find a Truly Supportive Provider

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Find a VBAC Doula

Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan with you today. We are so excited. Oh my gosh, we are just getting back into the groove of podcast recording and I’m just over here with a big ol’ smile on my face. I’m sure Meagan is the same. We just shut off our videos. We record on Zoom. So we just shut off our videos and it is always fun to get to see each other because Meagan and I hardly ever see each other anymore. It’s really funny. But it’s fun to see our guest, and just chit-chat a little bit first, and get back into it. 

But we have a really, really exciting guest for you today. It is Daniela and she’s going to share her story about her VBAC. We’re going to talk about advocating for your rights during childbirth because that’s a really hard thing to do and sometimes you don’t exactly know how to do it. So Daniela’s story is going to go into that a little bit, and then we’re going to talk a little bit more at the end. But before we get started, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Yes, I do. This is from Jen7363728. 

Julie: “867-5309”. Okay sorry, go on. 

Meagan: The title is, “So inspiring.” She says, “Thank you for providing this important resource to women. I am preparing for my VBAC coming any day now (40 weeks, 5 days today). Your podcast has been so informative and inspirational! Your work is truly making a difference. Thank you for empowering me and so many others to follow this journey.”

And I love that. I am excited to know if she had her VBAC or how her birth went. That was back in June, you guys. June of 2021? 2021. No, 2020. I bet this was in 2020. So that was a long time ago. 

We love our reviews. If we ever read your review on the podcast, we’d love to know the follow-up. Let us know how things went and of course, we’re always looking for new and fun reviews. So if you have a second, drop us a review. You can do it on Apple Podcasts. You can do it on Google, pretty much wherever.

Julie: Facebook. 

Meagan: Facebook. Wherever we are, you can leave us a review. We love them. They mean the world to us and we love reading them on the podcast. So thank you so much to Jen– all the numbers– 7363728.

Daniela’s Story

Julie: I love it. Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. Okay. We are here today with Daniela. She is a wife, a mama of two boys, and she is currently expecting baby number three in the fall of 2022. So we’re so excited for her and her upcoming birth as well. But before we get talking too much or singing, because apparently singing is something I do now on the podcast, I don’t even know. The first episode, I don’t know, this is weird. Before I start being weird again, Daniela, welcome. We are so excited to have you and we would love for you to share your stories with us. 

Daniela: Thank you. It is an honor to be here. Every time I listened to the podcast, I was like, “Oh, one day I’m going to be on it and tell my story.” So this is a dream come true for me. 

Julie: Yay! 

Daniela: Yeah, so I got pregnant back in 2018 and it was the same year that I had a miscarriage, so my C-section was my rainbow baby. It was pretty, kind of like– mixed emotions. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Daniela: Anyway. So I thought I wanted this natural, unmedicated birth from the beginning. I went with the midwives because I thought they were going to be a huge part of my birth process in not wanting to have a medicated birth. 

So anyway, my whole pregnancy was normal, healthy, you know, no concerns or anything. So I thought, “Why not? The birth is going to be just as wonderful as the pregnancy was.” 

So it was about 39 weeks and my contractions started Saturday morning, like 3:00 a.m., but they were 10 minutes apart, 20 minutes apart. They were very random. So I was like, “Well I’m just going to keep resting and sleeping.” And then by noon, 1:00-2:00 p.m., they were getting more in a rhythm. So I started checking them and they were pretty consistent, but they were not very intense. It was the first time, so I didn’t know what to expect. I didn’t even know how the pain level was going to be. And I remembered in the classes that I took, they told me, “Just 4-1-1. Every 4 minutes, for 1 minute, every minute, for an hour.”

Meagan: At least an hour, yeah. 

Daniela: So I said, “Okay.” So I timed it and they were pretty consistent, but they were not very intense. So I called the midwife and I said, “They are 4-1-1, but they are not very intense.” And she’s like, “Well, you can just come in.” So I said, “Okay.”

And then they checked me, and I was at 4. They were like, “No, you still need to go home. You’re starting to labor more.” And I remember they told me, “When you need to punch someone or punch something and you start crying, that’s when you need to come in.” I said, “Okay.”

So I called my mom and I said, “You know what? I think it’s time. The time is getting sooner, so why don’t you come over?” She came over, so it was my mom, my husband, and myself. I started laboring and stuff and by that time, I hadn’t eaten anything because I just didn’t want to eat anything. I wasn’t feeling like it. 

Anyway, and then by 7:00 p.m. or 8:00 p.m., they got really intense and I was punching the wall, and I was crying, and I remember I was fighting every single contraction. I would just fight it to not feel the pain. And my mom was a little bit stressed. So I don’t know if that got into my head, that ambiance of her not being calm and relaxed, that it got to me. And then she told my husband, “We need to go to the hospital. We need to go to the hospital right now. She’s crying and she’s punching the walls.” 

Anyway, so we got to the hospital. They checked me and I was 5. I did not want to get the epidural in the back of my mind, but I was in so much pain. I looked at my husband and I said, “I’m sorry, babe. I need to have an epidural.” And he looked at me and he was like, “Okay. If that’s what you want to do, that’s fine. But you said–,” And I said, “I know, but I’m so sorry.” I was in so much pain. 

He was supportive in that way, but he didn’t want to speak up, like, “You told me that you didn’t want an epidural.” Anyway, he was trying to be supportive. I think we got to the hospital around 11:00. by that time. They gave me the epidural right in my room after triage, and I progressed from 5-8 centimeters in three hours. It was really quick and I was like, “Okay, this is going well.” I think they gave me Pitocin. To be honest, I don’t remember. 

So I progressed really well in three hours and I was like, “Oh, this is going really well. I’m progressing well.” But from 8 centimeters to 9, it took forever, like, maybe ten hours. It took a long time.

Meagan: Wow.

Daniela: It took a long time.

Meagan: Wow.

Daniela: I was doing fine. The baby was doing fine, nothing to worry about like, “Oh, we need to go into a C-section.” But then it was Sunday afternoon by that time, so I was in the hospital for a really long time. No eating because you are not allowed, so I had nothing to eat. I was tired, all of that, and then by 2:00, they were like, “Okay. Even though you are not 10,” I was like 9 1/2, “We are going to start pushing.” I said, “Okay.”

We started pushing, and pushing, and pushing, and pushing for four hours. For four hours, I pushed. By the time I was done pushing or before the four-hour mark, the heart rate was decreasing– the baby's heart rate. They were like, “Well, the baby is not tolerating the contractions well, so we might as well just do a C-section,” just to have that in the back of my mind.

I think as soon as I heard that “C-section” word, I just shut down. Like, my brain shut down, my body shut down. I don’t know, just a completely different vibe that I felt. And then I remember when I was pushing, my husband was like, “Okay. You need to keep going. Come on, we don’t want to do a C-section. Come on. You can do it.” He was really trying to be supportive. 

I pushed and nothing. They told me that the heart rate was really low and they were like, “Okay. I am so sorry. We just have to do a C-section.” By the time they told me that, I was tired. I was so afraid. The whole ambiance just changed in seconds. There were three people in the room– my husband, my mom, and the midwife– and then in two seconds, there were 12 people in the room. You know, scattering, like, “You need to sign this paper,” and this, and this, and that, and I was like, “What just happened? What is happening right now?” 

So they let me sign the forms, and I have no idea what I signed. I was in out-of-it mode by that point. So I signed and I was sobbing. I was crying. I was so scared that something would happen to my baby, that something would happen to me, so I felt defeated. Like, I did my work. I thought I researched. I thought I prepared myself, but I guess not. 

So anyway, we went to the OR. I was there and my husband was there at the back of my head, and I just remember feeling every single little bone pulling out of my body. I remember there was a doctor right behind me and she said, “You are not supposed to feel pain. You are supposed to feel just pressure.” And I was like, “This does not feel like pressure.” I felt everything. And she was like, “Is it painful?” And I said, “Yes!” So I guess they gave me more pain medication and as soon as she did that, the pressure was still there, but the pain was gone. So thankfully, I spoke and I said something.

Julie and Meagan: Yeah.

Daniela: Because otherwise, I would have felt them stitching me. Oh my gosh. It was horrible.

So the whole thing was 15 minutes that I was there. I was crying, and I was shaking, and I was in pain, and I was screaming for the whole 15 minutes. My husband told me this. So after that, the baby was born, and then they showed it to me. They showed him to me through the curtains. At that point, I was so defeated and I was so overwhelmed that I remember I did not want to take a look at my baby.

Like, what just happened? I just had a baby and I felt horrible. You are supposed to take care of your baby and want to hold your baby. I did not want anything to do with the baby. Like, nothing. I did not want to take a look at him, nothing for like, 10 minutes. After they had given him to my husband, my husband carried him and showed him to me, and then by that time I was like, “Oh, I had a baby!”

Meagan: Kind of a disconnect. There was a disconnect, yeah.

Daniela: Yes. Very disconnected. And then after that, I started shaking. They told me that it was normal. They said, “If you start shaking, that’s normal,” but I was nonstop shaking and I was like, “This is not normal.” So I started shaking and they gave me more medicine, I guess, to stop shaking. I remember that they asked me in the room, they were like, “Do you want to hold your baby?” And I said, “No. I am afraid that I’m going to drop him,” because I was so shaky.

Meagan: Shaking so bad, yeah.

Daniela: I think it took about an hour and a half and after that, I was like, “Okay. I just had the baby. I stopped shaking. Okay. I can finally hold my baby.” So I didn’t get the golden hour that I was craving. So yeah. That was my traumatic experience with my C-section. 

The recovery was awful. We had to stay with my mom for about two months because back then, I was living in an apartment with stairs, so I couldn’t go up the stairs or down the stairs. So I stayed with my mom. You can just imagine how living with your mom after having a baby and a husband, it’s just like, “Okay. This is not what I planned.”

Meagan: I cannot only personally imagine. I’ve done it. My mom lived with me, but yes. A lot of people would think that it’s super ideal because Mom is there to help and that’s nice, but it’s just not. You need your space.

Daniela: Exactly.

Meagan: You need your space. Yeah.

Daniela: Exactly, especially after having a baby and a traumatic experience.

Julie: Yeah.

Daniela: So anyway, after that, I was determined that there was no way I was going to have another birth with the same experience. Like, no way. I was going to do everything in my power and everything that I could so I didn’t experience this again. 

I started researching birth after Cesarean and I learned the term “VBAC”. I had never heard of it. So I learned about it. I learned about the Facebook group and the podcast. I just started listening to stories, reading stories, and just getting information. I just pretty much saturated myself. That’s all I thought about. That’s all I talked about with friends and family. I guess they were pretty tired of me talking about it.

And just the people– they think that just because you have a C-section, then you’re going to have a C-section with all of your births. I remember people looking at me like, “You are crazy.” Like, “Oh, you had a C-section, so you’re going to have another C-section?” And I was like, “No. I am going to have a VBAC.” And they were like, “What is that?” So you know, it gave me the chance to give knowledge to other people about VBAC and all of that, so I felt pretty powerful knowing something and telling people about it. So that was pretty cool. 

So anyway, and then after that, I took this pregnancy differently. I tried to eat healthier. I was more active. I was exercising, walking, just doing all of the movements, and bouncing on my ball. I did everything they told me to do to have a successful VBAC. I did the dates and the raspberry tea. Everything, I did. I hired a doula. I hired a doula at late 37 weeks or 36 weeks. I took so long because we couldn’t afford it and I really did talk to my husband. I said, “I really think we need this.” And he was like, “Okay.” We prayed about it and God showed us, “Okay. Yes. This is what it takes for you to have a VBAC, then just go for it.” So we felt at peace.

So we hired a doula. Time went and I was almost 38 weeks. It was my baby shower and I woke up with contractions that day. It was early morning, but they were 10 minutes apart, 15 minutes apart. So I texted my doula and I said, “I don’t know if this is the real thing, but I am having contractions. They are very random,” and she was like, “Just take a shower. Relax and just let me know how you feel.” And I said, “Okay.”

So I did that and I think that relaxed my body. They were farther apart, like 30 minutes apart, 40, and then 20, and 15, so very random. And then after that, my husband was like, “Are you going to your baby shower?” And I said, “Yes!” And he was like, “But you are in labor.” I’m like, “I might be. I might be not. Who knows?”

So I went to my baby shower and I guess I just forgot about the contractions talking with the people and all that. This was during COVID, so we actually did a drive-through baby shower. I did not want to tell anyone but my sister and my sister-in-law. I did not want to tell my mom because of the past experience that I had with her that she just gets really stressed very quickly and she was not feeling good. We had thought that she might have had COVID, so I said, “I am not going to worry her with that either,” so I didn’t tell her. 

I went to my baby shower and by the middle of the baby shower, I was feeling the contractions very soon and I was like, “Okay. I think this is the real deal.” The baby shower ended around 7:00 p.m. and I went home. I needed to stop to breathe through my contractions and when my husband saw me, he was like, “Oh. Oh my gosh. I think we are having a baby.” I didn’t even pack. I didn’t even have the hospital bag ready. He didn’t even have the bag ready either. It was two weeks early. We never thought that he was going to come two weeks early.

Julie: That is so funny. With my third baby, my second VBAC, I went to a baby shower for myself on her birthday as well and she was born at 37 weeks. It’s so funny. There are so many parts where I’m just laughing along because I am just right there with you.

Daniela: So anyway, I said, “You and I just pack some things. Put some things in the bag.” So I got very, very, very intense with my breathing and I think that helped me through– the whole contractions, and how to breathe, and how to stay calm, and all of that. I was very focused on my breathing and I did not let anything distract me. Not even my toddler, my husband, my thoughts, anything. I just kept breathing. 

After an hour, I said, “I think you need to call my doula.” So my husband called my doula. I hadn’t even met my doula. The day after, on Sunday, we were supposed to meet directly meet in person. So I actually met my doula during my labor.

Meagan: When you started labor.

Julie: I had a birth like that.

Meagan: I have done that too. I was at a birth one time where they called me and they were like, “We have been in labor for two days. Please come over.”

Julie: Oh my gosh, I love it.

Meagan: So I was meeting them in between contractions. Like, “Okay, so what do you do for a living? How long have you been together?”

Julie: “What’s your birth plan?”

Meagan: Yeah. “What would you like for this birth?” Yeah.

Julie: Oh, okay. Okay, okay. Go on.

Daniela: Yes. I mean, we talked on the phone about what was my birth plan and all that. But it’s just that we were going to practice breathing techniques and pain– none of that happened.

Julie: I love it.

Daniela: So anyway, she came over. She was listening on the phone and I was making those sounds and she was like, “Oh yeah. She’s in labor. Okay, just give me an hour and I will be right there.” So she came in an hour and I labored for another hour for a while in my home– dim lights, the toddler was asleep, I had my worship music on. It was just so different from my first birth. I was very calm and very focused on my breathing and she helped me through movement and stuff like that. 

And then at around 10:00, 10:30, my water broke. I said, “I think my water broke,” because I never experienced that and she was like, “Okay. Let me check.” So we checked and she was like, “Yep. That was your water. Okay, so how are you feeling? Do you want to go to the hospital now?” I was like, “I don’t know. Should I?” I had no idea what to do. I was like, “Maybe.” I said, “Can I just wait a little bit longer and see how I feel?” She was like, “Just letting you know, the contractions are going to get more intense and the hospital is about 30-35 minutes away.” I said, “Let me just do one more contraction.” She was like, “Okay. Let’s just do it.” 

But they were so back to back and I was like, “Oh no. I think I need to go to the hospital right now.” I told her, I said, “I have the urge to push.” She was like, “Oh my gosh.” So she pulled my husband and she was like, “Just letting you know, if you think that she is going to have the baby in the car, just pull over and call 9-1-1.” My husband was like, “Oh my gosh. No. Let’s just not do that.”

Meagan: He’s like, “Uh, no. Let’s not do that at all. Someone else can drive. Someone else can drive.”

Daniela: Yes. So we rushed to the hospital and we got there. They checked me and they were like, “Okay. You are an 8,” and I was like, “Okay. Yes. I can do this,” because I had learned that transition is the quickest– the most painful one, but the quickest one. I said, “Okay. If I am an 8, I know I can do this.” 

So yeah. They checked me and by that time they were asking me questions and in the second that I had to breathe, I answered them. I would not answer them when I was having a contraction. I was like, “I don’t care about them. I just care about my breathing and if something is going to throw me off, then I am not going to do it.”

They turned me from triage to a room and they were like, “Okay. She is going quickly. We are going to have this baby really quickly. We got to the room and they were like, “Can we do this?” And I said, “No.” “Can we do an IV?” And I said, “No.” That was one of the things that I advocated for myself and I didn’t know before. I didn’t know that I could deny any intervention that they wanted to do.

The funny part is when I walked in the room, there were the nurses and there was the doctor and they were like, “Oh, this is Dr. such-and-such.” It was the same doctor that did my C-section and I remembered his name clearly. I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So I thought, “Okay. He might want to push to have a C-section because he did it with me.” So I was like, “No. I am not going to go there with my thoughts. No. Let’s just keep focused on breathing.” 

He was like, “Okay. How are you doing?” I was trying not to breathe and I was like, “Oh, I am good. They were trying to put in the IV and I was like, “No. I don’t need to,” and they were like, “Can I check you?” And I said, “Hold on. I am breathing. I am having a contraction.” 

And then I was feeling the urge to push. I don’t know how, but I just knew. I just knew that I was ready to push. They were like, “Don’t push. I need to check you. I need to check you.” I was like, “Do you have to check inside of me?” I was yelling, “You don’t need to check me. I just need to have this baby right now,” but I did not say anything because I didn’t want to lose my strength in telling them what to do. I was like, “No.” So they were like, “Can I please check you?” And I said, “Okay.” 

I put the position of all fours. I didn’t lay on my back because I knew that would not go well. So I put myself in the bed on all fours and they were like, they weren’t sure, “Are you going to roll over?” And I said, “No. I’m going to keep it like that.” She was like, “Okay.” So she checked me and she was like, “Oh yeah. She is ready.” Inside of me, I was like, “Of course, I am ready. I knew that.”

So anyway, I was still in that position and the nurse asked the doctor, she was like, “I think she wants to push in that position. Is that okay?” She was asking the doctor and I was like, “Yes. Of course, it’s okay.” I want to push however I want to push. This is my baby and this is my birth! And the doula was very helpful. She didn’t speak to the staff on my behalf, but when she saw that I couldn’t speak, she spoke up for me.

Julie: Good for her.

Daniela: She spoke with my husband and then my husband spoke for me, so she didn’t take my place, but she helped me through that. And the nurses asked, “What is her birth plan?” My husband was like, “No clue.” My doula had to dim lights and this, and that, and that, so all of that. So she was helpful in the end. Very helpful. 

So anyway, and then after that, I started pushing. I pushed for 30 minutes and he was out. When I felt the whole body out of my body, I switched right over to my back and they were like, “Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You are going to crush the baby!” because I was so excited to hold my baby. So I leaned over and they were like, “Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. We need to unwrap him.” I said, “Okay.” They unwrapped him from the umbilical cord and they were like, “Okay. Now you can move over.” 

So I moved and went on my back. They just handed him to me right away and I just started sobbing, and crying, and I was just in awe. Like, “I cannot believe that I did that.” It was just an amazing feeling and I never thought that I was going to be able to do an unmedicated birth at all. So yeah. That’s my story.

Julie: That’s really exciting. I love it. I love that everything went so quickly that you barely knew what to do. I love those parts of that. Sometimes, things are definitely a little more challenging that way, but sometimes it works out a little bit easier because there’s not a lot of time to try and interfere with the birth process if that makes sense.

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that too because they want to help you, but like you said, there’s no time to be like, “Well, we are going to do this. We are going to do this. We are going to do this.” Even like you said, the few things that they did want to do that you didn’t feel comfortable with, you were like, “No. I don’t want to. I don’t want that.” And that’s a hard thing to do in that situation. 

There’s a lot of people like, “Hey, we need this IV. We need this. We need this.” And it’s like, “Okay, okay, okay,” because you’re not in a state of mind that you just can be like, “Oh wait. Hold on. I don’t want that. I don’t want this.” A lot of times, people just go in and are like, “Okay. Yeah, whatever,” because they are so focused on laboring. You kept your focus on laboring and then also kept your focus on what was important to you. I applaud you for that because that’s really, really hard to do.

Daniela: Thank you.

Julie: Yeah. I think it’s so funny when you said that the staff asked what was in your birth plan and your husband was like, “I have no idea.”

Meagan: “I don’t know.”

Julie: And the doula was there to help guide you—

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: –and remind your husband maybe a little bit about what was needed because you certainly weren’t in a place to stand up for yourself and explain everything because labor is just really hard like that. Nobody is in a spot to really be able to do that, but your doula was. Your doula was able to do that for you and I really like how you said that when you weren’t able to communicate for yourself, she would communicate for you, or she would help your husband communicate for you, because that’s something that I really think is important as a doula as well. It’s something that I try to do. 

It’s hard, sometimes, to find the balancing act between really advocating in the birth room and helping the parents learn how to or remind them of what they want to advocate for, right? And so, I like that you mentioned that she was able to do that because sometimes it’s harder for husbands or other birth partners to be able to remember what you wanted in the moment, and sometimes, just a little nudge from the doula to be like, “Hey, by the way, she didn’t want to push on her back, so let’s just be ready because this provider looks like he might want to make her do that.” And then the husband is like, “Oh yeah. That’s right. I am ready. Let’s do this.” And so it just takes a little gentle nudge and reminder and that’s exactly what doulas are there to help you with as well.

Daniela: Yes. That is for sure. I think she was a crucial part of my birth. With this baby that we are going to have in the fall, I told my husband, “Even though it is my third, it’s going to be my second VBAC. You don’t know what birth is going to be like.” You know? My second was very easy, but I don’t know how the third will be. So I said, “We are going to hire her again.” And he was like, “Okay,” because he knew the difference that she made.

Meagan: Oh yeah. Yeah. That’s something that my husband said too. We had no doula for my first two C-sections and then we had the doula for my third and my husband was like, “Okay. We are totally done having kids, but I would never do that again without a doula because that was incredible.”

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: It brought so much peace for him too.

Julie: Yeah. Having someone that knows and is familiar with the birth space, and the birth process, and what is going on really is helpful especially when you already know what is going on in the birth process. You can’t doula yourself. We have been doulas– Meagan was a doula during her VBAC after two C-sections. I was a doula for my second two VBACs, but having somebody that is levelheaded that knows what is going on, that knows what is not an emergency, that everything is normal, and then if things do become a little more urgent, they can help guide you, and steer you, and help you know what options there are, and how to ask questions, and how to communicate with the staff, and all of those sorts of things. So yeah. Lots of great information there about doulas.

We have lots of information available about doulas on our blog as well. We will drop some links to evidence for doulas that we have blogs about. There is actually statistical evidence that is documented showing that having a doula in your room present for you can– does, not can. It does reduce your chance of having a C-section by 39% which is huge deal. So don’t take my word for it, go check out our blog. We have links to all of the studies there cited for you so you can go and see them for yourself.

Birth Advocacy

Julie: Well, let’s talk a little bit more about birth advocacy for a second and standing up for yourself. I think we kind of already touched on how having somebody like a doula for you that knows what you want, and understands the birth process, and is familiar with it is a really important piece of being able to advocate for yourself and stand up for having a birth that you want, but I really liked during your story, Daniela, how there were a couple of little parts that stuck out to me. 

Like, during your surgery when you were having your C-section, you kept bringing up that it hurt. I almost got a little bit frustrated when you said the nurse kept asking you, “Does it hurt or do you just feel pressure?” And you were like, “Yeah, it hurts.” Like, how many times did you have to tell them that? But by continuing to speak up for yourself and say that, they were able to resolve it, and get you some medication, and pain relief so that you could actually have that relief and have it resolved later on.

It’s really hard to stand up for yourself, sometimes, in the birth space, especially during such an emotional event that is giving birth and being able to do that can be really intimidating for people. I think it is a really important thing and another thing that you can use to attest to the importance of having a birth team that you really trust because imagine how much harder it is with a provider who you don’t like, or you don’t trust, or you don’t believe is going to even believe you. 

Standing up and advocating for yourself in an environment that is not supportive and that you don’t feel is supportive of your needs and your care is a lot harder to do than standing up for yourself in an environment where you feel supported, believed, and trusted. So I think that’s a really important part of your story that you shared. 

I also really like how at the end of your story, you talked about you hired your doula. I think you said at 37 weeks, was it?

Daniela: Yeah, 37. Yes.

Julie: Yeah. I’ve been hired that late before and that’s totally fine. But I liked it because first of all, it shows that it is never too late to hire a doula, but I liked the conversation you had with your husband because I had conversations like that with my husband as well about, “Hey, I know that we can’t really afford this, but this keeps coming back to me as something that is really important and we need to figure out how to make it work.” We’ve had lots of conversations like that throughout our marriage and throughout our relationship, but it’s especially important for something like this your birth experience. 

If something keeps coming back to you– maybe it’s not hiring a doula. Maybe you don’t hire a doula and it’s okay. You can have a VBAC without a doula. Lots of people do it. But doulas are definitely beneficial during all births, especially for VBAC. But it kept coming up, and it kept coming back to you, and you talked to your husband about it. We were talking about birth advocacy and standing up for yourself in your space, but also, you also had enough confidence obviously, like we hope you do in your relationship with your husband, that you were like, “Okay, listen. This is what needs to happen. This keeps coming back to you” and he supported you in that.

Like when you said– I am super paraphrasing right now. I am sure it’s way more complicated than this. But he was like, “Okay. Let’s figure out how to make this work,” and you guys figured it out. I think that that’s a great testament to first of all your determination, and second of all your relationship, and third of all just really honoring that intuition, and following, and trust yourself, and believing in that. 

All of those things are really important in order to have a birth experience you can look back on and not question your decisions and your choices. “Oh, what if? What if I did this? What if I did that?” So that’s really important. I am proud of you for doing that because I mean, finances are a big reason and a big influencer for a lot of decisions. And a lot of doulas are willing to work out trades, and payment plans, and all sorts of things. I know I certainly am and I have heard a lot of doulas certainly are. You might be surprised as you ask around and figure out whether you can make it work. I don’t know. 

Meagan, I feel like I’ve been talking forever. What do you have to say about advocacy, or doula work, or all of it, or anything?

Meagan: No, yeah. You’re fine. I think I would say exactly what you were saying. So yeah. It’s a hard thing to do, but it is so important. It’s really crucial. Something, I think, during pregnancy, whether you have a doula or not, also don’t 100% rely on that doula to do that either. You have got to prepare yourself and I think really having the education behind VBAC and what you’re wanting to do is going to be important. 

And then, really in those prenatals, having deep conversations with your provider because if you have these discussions with your provider, it is going to strengthen your relationship so in those moments of, “Oh my gosh, this is hard,” you should hopefully feel like you have that established relationship. And it’s hard when you go in and you don’t even know who’s on call. That’s a difficult thing. But through the practice of advocating for yourself and saying, “This is what I want. This is what I want,” through your prenatal care, it could just truly help you in the birth scenario if that makes sense. Does that make sense? 

Julie: Yeah. Absolutely. 

Meagan: Prepare by talking to your provider and all of those things. In our course, we give tons of questions for providers, but just, yeah. Having deep conversations and learning really what matters to you, like, what you want to fight for. 

Julie: Yeah. I like that. Knowing what’s most important to you. I know birth plans, birth preferences, birth goals, there’s a lot of talk and dialogue about that right now in the birth community and things are shifting a little bit too about that. Don’t go in with a 10-page birth plan with bullet points about every single little detail that you want to happen exactly the way that you want it to because birth just doesn’t go like that. Everything about it is unpredictable, but having some main goals about the most important things to you is what is really going to be able to center your care with your provider and be able to allow that relationship to develop in a natural and organic way so that your provider will be able to best support you to align with those specific goals, and then all of the details will sort themselves out along the way during your birth. 

Meagan: I just think it’s wonderful. I love your story. I’m so grateful for your sharing it. I am wanting to wish you all the love and luck with baby number three. I’m sure it will just be amazing.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Fall 2022. You have to let us know how it goes. We’re curious. We’re excited for you. 

Daniela: I will, for sure. 

Meagan: Yes. Please, please, please. Okay. 

Julie: All right, and if you listening now and are interested in how you can prepare with all of the knowledge and information that you need for your own VBAC, we are excited to share this information with you. We have a VBAC preparation course made specifically for you that will teach you everything you never knew you needed to know about VBAC, and VBAC birth, and how to prepare for it. You can find that at thevbaclink.com/shop. Learn everything about the course there and get signed up today. 

We also have a whole bunch of VBAC-trained and certified doulas on our website as well. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. So it’s a twofer for you. We’ve got this course and we’ve got some doulas to help you along on your journey. So head on over to our website, give them a– check them out. Give them a checkout. What was I going to say? Give them a checkout? That makes no sense. Give them a checkout!

Meagan: Give them a checkout. Check them out!

Julie: And let us know how you like the course, how you’re loving our doulas, and we are excited to hear about your VBAC birth experience. 

Closing

Interested in sharing your VBAC story on the podcast? Submit your story at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Moana’s first birth left her feeling traumatized, confused, and like a failure. With her next pregnancy, she was determined to find redemption. She became educated on all of the risks and benefits surrounding VBAC, hired a highly supportive birth team, and affirmed to herself that she could do this.

Thanks to her preparation, Moana was able to adapt and utilize the birth tools she needed to achieve the beautiful VBAC she desired. 

We talk about how to build your own “birth toolbox” and why it’s important to allow yourself to use those tools as you need them. And as always, we fully support you in whatever tools you choose to use to have your positive birth experience!

Additional links

The Swiss Army Knife of Labor

The VBAC Link Blog: Natural Birth versus Epidural

Find a VBAC Doula

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcriptNote: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. It’s Meagan and Julie. We are back with you today for episode number two of our return and episode number 183. We have Moana today and we cannot wait to get into her story. A little funny thing— I’m totally going to admit what just happened. We went through everything, and we were getting into the story, and guess what? We forgot to push “Record”. So darn it!

Julie: My bad.

Meagan: We are restarting, but that’s okay. We are excited. We have Moana with you today. She is from Hawai’i and she is one amazing mama. You guys, she had a 72 hour labor. I’m just going to say that. How stinking amazing! She is a military wife. She is in the Reserves. They have two kiddos. They love being in the sun, and surfing, and living life up in Hawai’i. We can’t wait to hear her stories in just a second. 

Review of the Week 

Meagan: We’re going to hurry and turn over the time to Julie because as usual, we are going to have that Review of the Week. We really love your reviews and now that we’re kicking the podcast off again, we’re going to need some more. So feel free to drop us a review on Google or send us a review, whatever it may be. We would love, love, love to read your review on the podcast. Alright, Julie.

Julie: Oh my gosh. I am such a nerd. I cannot believe it. I am going to have to put a sticky note in the middle of the computer again and be like, “Push ‘Record’!” so I don’t forget.

Second of all, Meagan, you say Hawai’i like, “Ha-WHY. She’s from Ha-WHY.”

Meagan: Ha-waii. I don’t say, “Hawai’i.”

Julie: Oh, so funny.

Meagan: I know. I don’t say it correctly. I don’t even know.

Julie: It’s funny. Okay. Oh my gosh. I need to stop talking, so I’ll just read this review and then we can have Moana start her story again. Oh my gosh. So, so sorry. Alright.

Okay, so this review is from hnp1213 on Apple Podcasts and she says “So thankful. As I prepare for my HBAC this coming September, this podcast has helped me heal so much from my previous C-section. I’ve laughed, I’ve cried, and I’ve celebrated with so many of their stories. Thank you for creating an uplifting and empowering podcast for those of us looking for our redemption birth.”

No thank you, hnp1213, and thank you, Meagan and Moana, for being patient with me while we have to restart this over. Alright.

Moana’s story

Meagan: Okay, Moana. We want to dive back into your story because it’s a great one.

Moana: Alright. So my husband and I got married in 2016. I was 22 and he was 23. We waited about three years to have a baby and I didn’t realize I was pregnant for a while. I was just kind of feeling sick at work and this guy actually told me, “Hey, I think you’re pregnant.” I was like, “No, no. There’s no way.” So I went and took a test and sure enough, two lines came up right away. It was super dark and I was like, “Oh, wow. I must not be early.”

So I scheduled an appointment with my provider and sure enough, I was eight weeks along already. That was pretty exciting. My husband actually wasn’t even home at the time. I had to video call him. He was in the Middle East. I was like, “Hey, are you ready to be a dad?” And he was like, “Yeah, I guess.” I’m like, “No, I mean right now.” I showed him my test and he was like, “What?” Yeah.

Meagan: “No, I mean right now!” That is awesome. “No, I mean you’re gonna be a dad so let me rephrase that.”

Moana: Right, yep.

Meagan: I love it. That’s awesome.

Moana: Yeah. So yeah. He was super excited. I was just chugging along, had to keep going to work and I was super sick– puking all of the time, day and night. I was like, “Oh, I guess I know the baby is okay because my hormones are strong.”

Meagan: Yeah.

Moana: Up until the first and second trimester. Finally in the third trimester, I had just started to feel better, but then I just started to feel big, so one traded off for the other.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Moana: Yep. I made it all the way to 40 weeks and my provider was like, “Hey, I want to do an induction today.” I was like, “No. I don’t think I want to do that,” and she was pretty pushy about it. I told her, “Hey, the baby is fine and it’s just an estimated due date, you know? Maybe they didn’t even get it right.” She wasn’t too happy about that, so she said she was going to schedule an induction for 41 weeks. I told her, “Okay, but I am probably not going to go to the hospital and do it that day either.” 

So 41 weeks came and yeah. I told her, “No. I really don’t want to induce,” and she wasn’t too happy about it, but I just went home anyway. About three days later, I finally went into labor.

I went to work that day. I just had contractions on and off. I tried to walk around a lot. I went home that night and they started getting stronger, but then they stayed about five minutes apart for a few hours. So I called my doctor and told her, “Hey. My progression doesn’t feel normal. What do you think?” She told me to go into the hospital. We got there at about 11:00 p.m. and I was only a centimeter and a half dilated, but she said she didn’t want me to leave because I was so far along in my pregnancy, which I didn’t really understand because I know from most people that if you are not about 5-6 centimeters, they usually turn you away.

So we just labored, my husband and I, together in the hospital and no one really helped us out, or gave us any tips, or anything. We had no idea what we were doing. We were just like, “Oh, you know, everyone has babies. It just happens. Whatever.” 

Meagan: That’s kind of how I approached my birth too. I was like, “Well, I don’t know. People have babies every day, so I’m just going to go have a baby, right?”

Moana: Right. Exactly. So yeah. We just kind of walked around prayed. We tried to use the birth ball. It is a teaching hospital too, so they were like, “Oh, can students come in?” And I was like, “Sure, I guess. I don’t know if they just want to see me in pain or whatever.” And so I kept laboring until the next day. I only got to about 5 centimeters and my contractions had gotten a little bit closer together, but I was just really in a lot of pain and it was really getting hard for me to cope. I would come to find out later it was because he was turning from sunny-side up back over and apparently, that’s pretty painful– almost like transition type level of pain when you are going through that.

But at the time, I had no idea. I was just like, “Oh man. This is getting crazy.” I got an epidural and then about an hour later, it failed. My baby’s heart rate was crashing every time I had a contraction– really, really low and then it would come back up, but they were getting really worried. They called my doctor on the phone and she was like, “Okay. I am going to come in. We are going to do a C-section.” I was like, “No, no. I don’t want that if I don’t need it.” I really didn’t understand what was going on. They didn’t really explain if it was really dangerous for the baby or for me or anything like that. 

About thirty minutes to an hour went by and then his heart rate just crashed completely, so they just ripped us out of the room. They rushed us to the OR. I had no idea what was going on. I was looking at my husband who was just kind of standing there because they didn’t tell him to come or anything. They were just moving super fast. I think from the time his heart crashed to them getting him out was about 12 minutes.

It was just so shocking. I could feel the hands inside of me. I remember I kept asking, “Is my baby okay? Is my baby okay?” and they wouldn’t answer me. I was crying and it was just this huge mess. I was just in so much shock. Thankfully, I heard him cry when they took him out and they had let my husband come in. I remember looking at him and looking at the baby. I was happy in my heart, but outwardly, I was in so much pain, and shock, and all of this stuff, that all I could do was just kind of moan and cry, and then I ended up passing out for a little bit.

My husband got to help cut the rest of his cord off since they had to cut it right there at the table. I woke up a few hours later and I was just so upset that I didn’t get to hold my baby right away, and feed him, and do all of the stuff. I was so out of it still that I couldn’t really speak for a while, but I was able to hold him. So they handed him to me and I didn’t actually know he was a boy. We waited to find out, so that was a nice surprise after all this trauma went down.

Julie: Oh, how fun.

Moana: Yeah. And he was really good. He nursed right away and our postpartum was really great. I couldn’t have asked for a better baby. He was super calm and he nursed really well. We were just so happy. He was finally here.

My doctor, though, was telling me, “Oh, do you guys want to leave today? You are taking a room for other patients,” but when we had walked around the wing, there were plenty of other open rooms. I don’t know why she was really pushy to get me out of the hospital, but I told her, I was like, “Oh, no. I don’t feel all that ready. I am still in a lot of pain. I can barely walk.” She was like, “Well, why don’t you just take the narcotics?” I told her, “No. I don’t want to do that. I will take Tylenol and Motrin, but I really don’t want to take anything stronger because of the way I reacted to the anesthesia.” So I told her, I was like, “Hey, just give us another day.” 

And so actually, the baby‘s pediatrician wrote up something on his chart so that we had a reason to stay one more day. But yeah, my doctor was fairly pushy and she made us feel bad. She was like, “Are you scared to go home or something like that?” That made my husband pretty mad too.

Julie: Interesting.

Moana: We were like, “No. I’m just not physically recovered enough yet,” because it was pretty violent when they had to pull him out. He had already descended a bit, so they actually had to pull him back out first and then get him up and out. So yeah. But anyway, so that was our first birth. Like I said, thankfully, postpartum was really great, but I knew I never, ever wanted to have a C-section again after that. 

So I was like, “Okay. I am going to get informed this time. I am going to read all of this stuff.” I found your guys’ podcast and it was really awesome listening to everyone’s birth stories, and just really getting educated on your options, and body, and all this stuff. I actually hired a midwife to go over my chart with me because I needed closure on my first birth because I really still didn’t understand what happened and why I had a C-section, so she went over everything with me. 

She actually told me, “Hey. You had a placental abruption.” My doctor never even talked to me about that or said that that had happened. I always thought I did something wrong and that was why it happened. But she said, “Oh, no. You can’t really prevent these or predict it and you were hemorrhaging, so the crash C-section had to happen.” So that gave me a lot of closure on that and she said, “You know, you are a really good candidate for a VBAC.”

That really made me super excited. I just was like, “Okay. I want to do this.” I ended up getting pregnant again at 14 months postpartum which was great because I knew right away. I was so excited, like, “Okay. I am going to really get prepared for my VBAC this time.” I was sick again for the first two trimesters, but then in the third trimester, I felt really good and I was working out all the time. 

I hired a doula from Best Birth Hawaii and she was really great. She just gave me so much comfort and extra knowledge, and it was just so nice to feel like I had someone on my side who could speak up for me. I also had changed providers at this time too and he had done hundreds of VBACs before, so I just went into this birth super confident. I just knew, “Hey, I am going to do this and I know I can do it.”

I went into labor at 39 weeks and 3 days and I was super excited for that too because I was like, “Man, I really don’t want to go past 40 weeks. I hope this baby can come early.” So yeah. It was a Wednesday and I started early labor. It was kind of slow at first, so I just tried to take the time to relax and maybe get a nap in. It really became hard to sleep that night though, and so I just kept trying to do what I could– walking around, kept moving and resting on Thursday. 

Then Friday, my doula finally came to the house and she helped me through a lot of active labor. At about 3:00 p.m. that Friday, we were like, “Okay. I think it’s time to go to the hospital.” So we were super excited. My husband and I made it to the hospital. We labored some more, but eventually, I was in so much pain and I hadn’t slept, so I just needed to get some rest. 

I said, “Okay. Let’s try an epidural.” I got it and then it was really weird. I felt a click in my back and I got really scared that they did something wrong because my leg twitched too and it didn’t really work. It took the edge off, but I could still move. They were like, “Oh, what happened?” I was like, “Oh, I am not really sure,” but I finally got a nap in. I kept moving around and I was like, “Oh, I think it failed,” and then all the pain came back. 

I labored a few more hours like that and then we tried a second one. Now I was about 8 centimeters dilated. That one only worked for about an hour and it failed too. We were pressing the button and I’m like, “I don’t know why it’s not working.”

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Moana: Yeah. So that was pretty crazy. I was really confused and I was so tired. I was like, “Man, I am so jealous of women who have two-hour labors or even eight-hour labors,” You know? I was like, “Oh.” My doula was like, “Don’t think about that.” And I’m like, “Okay. I guess I am getting the natural delivery that I wanted,” because, in my heart, I was like, “Man. I just want to be able to do it without interventions and without pain relief,” so I guess that ended up happening in the end. 

So I started having them help me move around a little bit, lay on my side with the peanut ball, and then I got the squat bar, and we were just doing all the things that we could with the limitation from having the epidural even though it wasn’t working anymore. 

By the time it came to push, I was like, “Man, I am in so much pain. I am just going to get this baby out.” In less than seven minutes of pushing, he came out. Again, we didn’t know it was a boy, actually. So that was another nice surprise.

I pushed, pushed, and pushed as hard as I could, and then I got him out. I just felt so much relief and excitement. I was bawling and I cried so hard. My husband was like, “It’s a boy! It’s a boy!” I reached down to grab him up and he made a few little cries and nursed right away, and we had the skin-to-skin contact. It was just so redeeming and beautiful. Oh, I just want to cry thinking about it. But yeah. I was just so amazed that I was able to do it and now I know that my body can do it. 

And yeah. I couldn’t believe that it actually happened. And so now, I’m about 11 months postpartum and still breastfeeding. Actually, my first baby never stopped breastfeeding, so I’m trying to wean him right now because he’s almost three. I plan to wean the second one by no later than two years old. But we are hoping to have more kids so I’m just excited to be able to hopefully have another VBAC and just continue our journey, and keep being informed, and telling other people too like my friends who are having babies now and stuff like, “You can do it. You don’t have to be afraid of anything.” 

There’s so much information out there. I think even the medical world is changing too. VBACs are becoming more okay. They’re not turning away from it. More people are saying now, “Hey. This is good. It’s less risk for a mom in most cases.” 

So that’s just our crazy, traumatic story followed by a long, long labor and thankfully, we ended with a successful VBAC. 

Julie: Yeah. I love that. Oh my gosh. Such a great story. I love how patient you were in not finding out the gender of your babies! Oh my gosh. Like, I tried. I tried. Or I guess I didn’t really try at all. I am a sucker and I’m impatient. 

And so I’m not very good at waiting to know. I wanted to wait for my last, but I could not hold out. I didn’t even make it to 20 weeks before I had to run and make it to my gender scan. Let’s be honest. But I think that is so, so fun.

To Epidural or Not to Epidural?

I want to talk a little bit about epidurals and why I think sometimes it’s really easy for people to think– especially when you’re going in and planning for a VBAC, and you want to do everything you can in order to set yourself up for success, and everybody’s telling you, “Oh my gosh. Hire a doula. Have an unmedicated birth. Make sure you don’t go to the hospital until you’re pushing. Make sure you don’t get induced. Make sure you don’t do this. Don’t do that. Don’t do this. Don’t do that. And this.” Right?

There are so many things telling you what not to do. It’s really important to remember that nothing is inherently good or inherently bad. All interventions have an appropriate time and place and even having no interventions can turn out to not be a good thing. 

And so I want to talk a little bit about epidurals. I think, oh my gosh. I don’t even know how long ago, but it was a while ago in our Facebook group. I did a video or a Facebook Live in our Facebook group about– I called it, “The Swiss Army Knife of Birth.” Maybe you can go to our Facebook group. It’s called The VBAC Link Community and you could do a search for it. I think it’s maybe just referred to as “The Swiss Army Knife of Birth” or something like that. “Coping Tools for Labor”, I’m not sure exactly. Maybe I’ll link it in the show notes. I’m probably going to have to link it in the show notes as I’ve been talking about it. 

But it talks about having a little tool kit of just a bunch of different random things that you might need to have available for you when you’re in labor. An epidural might be one of the things you want to have available for you in your toolkit for coping with the discomforts of labor and it’s neither inherently good nor inherently bad. Being able to have something available for you to make a decision like the acronym, “B.R.A.I.N.”-- so using the Benefits, the Risks, Alternatives, your Intuition, and what happens if you do Nothing– to go through at the time to make a decision.

Meagan: Hey, can you help me clean up your room? Sorry, guys. Sorry. Sorry.

Julie: Meagan! You are not on mute! 

Meagan: I’m sorry! No, I’m not. I didn’t know. I was like, “Hey. Clean up your room!” I’m even whispering. Okay, sorry. 

Julie: Mute yourself, girl. 

Meagan: I’m muted. Well, now I am. 

Julie: No, you’re not. Now you are. Okay. Oh my gosh, what was I saying? So epidural has risks and benefits like every other coping tool in labor. Benefits of an epidural– I’m sure Meagan has seen the same as me. Sometimes, we see epidurals relax mom enough to where she progresses, and is able to dilate further, and push her baby out relatively quickly. Sometimes, not quickly. Sometimes, it takes a little while longer.

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: But it’s exactly what the laboring person needs in order for the body to progress further because let’s be honest. If you’ve been laboring for a really long time, your body’s completely exhausted. It’s not going to labor effectively. 

Meagan: Well, and something else, too, I was going to mention, Julie. Sorry to cut you off–

Julie: Yeah. No, go ahead. 

Megan: Not only physically, but sometimes when we get an epidural, it’s also so our mind can emotionally be present because sometimes when we’re laboring, especially for a long time, it’s like, “I don’t know how much longer I can do this. If this is hard now, is it going to get harder?” Our minds keep going to the future and things like that. It’s so great to get that epidural sometimes and just let your mind shut off and be present, and then your body can just do its job. 

Julie: Yeah, that’s a really good point. That's a very good point. I’ve seen that before as well myself. 

We’ve also seen epidurals really limit how much a parent is able to move while they’re in labor and also how much, sometimes, hospital staff is willing to be able to let the parent move. Sometimes, it can change the entire mood of the room at that point. Also, I’ve seen it affect the mind negatively. If a parent is really, really set on having an unmedicated birth without an epidural, it can give them the feeling of, “Oh no. I gave up. I didn’t achieve this goal that I had in mind.” 

And so being able to go into birth instead of with a specific set of things you want to accomplish, but having it be a little more fluid and flexible, and being willing to adjust your goals as necessary, I think, is really important as well. One little thing that might not go to your expectations has the possibility to shift your entire mindset and mood. It is so important to be able to keep your hormones balanced and everything to go well as well. So I don't know. Meagan, what would you add about epidurals? 

Meagan: I feel like there’s so much shame in epidural and also like, “Oh, if I get an epidural, I’m giving up. I’m failing.” There’s just so much and I don’t like it. I don’t like it at all. I think that epidurals have a bad rap and yes, are there some serious pros to going unmedicated? Yeah, there are. There are some great pros. But there are also some serious pros of having an epidural, and enjoying the experience, and getting the rest, and also letting your body progress the way it may not be able to at that moment unmedicated. So I hope that if you are preparing for a VBAC or for birth in general, try not to put so much negative–

Julie: Pressure

Meagan: Negative pressure, yeah, when it comes to an epidural because it is okay. It is okay to have an epidural. Like we said, it can be the magic tool in your toolbox. We have lots of tools in our toolbox. Whether we use them or not, they’re there and it’s okay to use them.

There’s never been a time where I’ve tried to use a screwdriver when I need an Allen wrench on my bike, right? I need to raise my seat up and I need an Allen wrench. I don’t need a screwdriver. There are different tools for different situations and for birth, an epidural is a great tool that is in the toolbox and it’s okay to use it. 

Julie: Absolutely. Absolutely, yep. And of course, we have a blog all about natural birth and epidural, and comparing both of those things. Like Moana said, her epidural had a hard time getting it to work and that is one of the risks that can come along with an epidural. Sometimes, it doesn’t work all the way or right off the bat. You might need to have an anesthesiologist come and make some adjustments, so you might need to be careful with that. 

But let me tell you, when I first started out as a doula, I was kind of like, really gungho, 100%, unmedicated birth all the way, that’s the only way to do this, but man, life has a way of teaching you lessons. And every once in a while, I’ll have a client look at me in the eyes and look at me and be like, “I think I need an epidural. I feel, like–” Oh my gosh. They almost feel like they need permission to get one. Does that make sense? Meagan, do you know what I’m talking about?

Meagan: Totally. Totally. Yes, it does. They ask. 

Julie: Like, letting me down if they get one?

Meagan: Yeah. There was actually a birth that I was at and the epidural came into my mind. It kind of went from–

Julie: But you don’t also want to be the first one to bring it up either, right?

Meagan: I know, but I did. I did. It was suffering. It went to suffering. She was suffering and one of the biggest things she said when we talked about her goals was to have a positive experience. And when you are past that point, you’re not going to have a positive experience. You’re just not. 

Julie: Yeah. It could lead to more birth trauma and that could introduce that. 

Meagan: Totally. Totally. So I just said, “Hey. Why don’t we talk about some options right now?” And we went over it and I did say epidural. She said, “I’ve been wanting someone to say that for the last four hours.” She said, “I didn’t feel I could. I didn’t feel I could.” And the fact that you just said that makes me think, “Okay. It’s okay.” And I’m like, “No. It’s totally okay.” You know? It’s totally okay, but she didn’t feel that that was okay because her goal was to not. 

Julie: Mhmm. 

Meagan: It was to not, but it’s okay. 

Julie: It’s okay to change plans. 

Meagan: It’s okay to change plans. It’s okay to adapt. 

Julie: And it’s okay to just go into your birth wanting an epidural from the start. It is okay to do that too. 

Meagan: Yes. Yeah. So, I love Moana’s story. I can’t say enough about, “Hey. It’s okay. Don't let it get you down if you get an epidural and you didn't want one.”

Julie: But it’s also okay to want a completely unmedicated birth and it’s also okay to have one. I mean, both Meagan and I have had unmedicated VBACs, but we’ve also seen the beauty in all types of birth stories no matter how they unfold and no matter what the outcome is. We support you in however you want to birth. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Moana. Thank you so much. 

Moana: Yeah. Thank you, guys. I appreciate the opportunity to tell my story. Thanks for all you guys do. I mean, if I didn’t find this podcast, I don’t know if I would have been as confident going in. And like you guys said, knowing that it’s okay to want an epidural because I really did feel like that during my first birth. Even my husband kind of made me feel guilty about it and some of our family, and I really felt like I failed at that point. And just knowing that it was okay going into my second birth, I’m like, “Okay. If it gets to that point, I’m not going to feel bad about that. I’m just going to do it.” That just took one element of stress away from the birthing process. 

Meagan. Yeah. Yeah. 

Moana’s VBAC Prep Tip

Julie: Yeah. I love that. Moana, you know we can’t let you leave without us asking you one question. What is your best tip for somebody as they are preparing to birth after a Cesarean?

Moana: I would say definitely get educated and hire a doula if you can because she just instilled so much confidence in me. Even though maybe I didn’t need her there or maybe I did, just emotionally for me, it was so necessary. I told her right afterward when I had my second one that, “I could not have done this without you. You just gave me something that I would have never been able to do myself.” Especially because of my trauma from my first birth, even though I had coped with it, I still just didn’t have the confidence that I had when she was there with me. 

Julie: I love that. Get educated and hire a doula, and wouldn’t you know? We have opportunities to do both on our website, thevbaclink.com. We have a VBAC preparation course that is designed to help you gain the full confidence that you need in order to have all of the tools in your toolkit on your birthing day. We also have a directory of VBAC doulas that we have educated on all of the things that you never nuded?

Meagan: –that you’d never know you’d need.

Julie: We have a directory of VBAC doulas fully trained and educated to perfectly support you on your birthing day. You can find our VBAC doulas at thevbaclink.com/findadoula. Everything you need you can find right on our website, thevbaclink.com. We’ll see you there. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience on thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After a LONG break, The VBAC Link podcast is back again! We have missed hearing your stories and feeling inspired by your strength. We promise that you will smile, cry, and celebrate with Francis as she shares her beautiful heart with us today. 

While pregnant with her hopeful VBA2C baby, Francis created these birth goals:

“I wish for a healthy mother and baby, both physically and emotionally. For my intuition to guide me and to be trusted by those around me. For labor to begin and continue as hands-off as possible and to feel heard, empowered, and respected.”

She strived for an empowering birth experience no matter what the outcome was, which only made her successful VBA2C that much sweeter. 

We also discuss why you shouldn’t be afraid to birth a big baby and how your intuition can be your greatest asset in the birth room.  

 

Additional links

The VBAC Link Blog: Get That Big Baby Out

The VBAC Link Shirt Shop

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. We have Francis with us today. And my gosh! I did not sing. I was going to sing a song, “Guess who’s back, back again?” Oh, yes. I was going to sing it. I was going to sing it, but I did not sing it.

 

Meagan: Guess who’s back?

 

Julie: Back again.

 

Meagan: Oh, I love it.

 

Julie: Julie’s back. And Meagan!

 

Meagan: Yeah!

 

Julie: Dang it. I sang it. Gosh. The only other time I have sang on the podcast was when I sang myself “Happy Birthday” for me in Korean on my birthday episode. That was fun. Do you remember that?

 

Meagan: Yeah, that was forever ago.

 

Julie: That was super fun.

 

Julie: Oh my gosh. We are back!

 

Meagan: We’re back!

 

Julie: It’s been a while.

 

Meagan: Yes it has.

 

Julie: Holy cow.

 

Meagan: We have had a lot going on, but it feels good. It feels really good. It feels a little weird and out of sync, but I am excited to be back. I’m sitting here. I’m so excited to have guests again. I’m excited to be with you. It’s going to be great.

 

Julie: Wow. So much has happened since we aired our last episode. Do you want to just kind of give a couple little things about what you have been up to and I’ll do the same, and then we will get into our story?

 

Meagan: Yeah. My life is always crazy with children. What have I been up to? Gymnastics meets, soccer games, working on children’s mental health. COVID impacted my kids more than I ever even realized. And so, working with kids and their mental health, getting ready to move– a sporadic, spontaneous move. Yeah. Working with my husband, just letting him work, doing doula stuff for my doula business, hiring new doulas. It’s been a lot but it’s been great.

 

Julie: Yeah. Holy cow. I know all that already and I am starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed for you. Kind of the same for me, keeping up with kids. My oldest has had some mental and physical health struggles as well, and so lots of things going on for him, and soccer, and gymnastics. My oldest two boys are doing bouldering classes, so learning how to climb big rocks.

 

Meagan: That’s awesome.

 

Julie: I know. It’s super fun. Super fun for them. And I actually have shifted in my role in the birth work field and I am a birth photographer now. So still a little bit of doula-ing, but birth photography mostly and that’s been really fun. I really love it a lot.

 

Meagan: And you’re great. You’re so great at it too.

 

Julie: Thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yeah. It’s been really fun. Really interesting, but it’s also kind of like starting a whole new business while restarting everything with The VBAC Link so it’s kind of been a lot. We have been up to a lot recently. So thanks everybody for hanging in there with us while we took a little bit of a break to catch up, and maintain, and restart some things in our busy lives. We appreciate everybody for supporting us while we were hanging out in the background for just a little bit, but we’re back.

 

Meagan: We’re back.

 

Julie: We’re back.

 

Review of the Week

 

Alright, as always, we have to start the episode with a review of the week. Thank you so much, everybody, for leaving reviews. We love them so much and Meagan is going to share one with us right now.

 

Meagan: Yes. We have a review from holmclaugh90 and the title is “I listen every single day.” It says, “After a traumatic cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second. Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing that I can do this.”

 

I love it.

 

Julie: I love it too. I love it.

 

Meagan: That was in July of last year, so she definitely has had a baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, email us at [email protected]. We would love to know how your birth went.

 

Julie: Yeah. Or tag us in your birth story on Instagram or Facebook and we can share it.

 

Meagan: Yeah.

 

Francis’ Story

 

Meagan: Alright.

 

Julie: Alright.

 

Meagan: I can’t wait for this new story.

 

Julie: I know. We are really excited. We are bringing it back with a classic story about– can you guess? Drumroll please. Big babies!

 

Meagan: I was gonna say, VBAC with a big baby.

 

Julie: VBAC with a big baby, and we are also going to sprinkle in some talk about maternal mental health, and the importance of trauma processing, and working through prior births, and some cholestasis there for a little bit of variety. But before we do that, I want to introduce our guest, Francis.

 

Francis is a married mother of three from Raleigh, North Carolina. She balances motherhood with a full-time job in international business. Wow. Really need to hear more about that. She enjoys swimming, CrossFit, outdoor adventuring, and traveling. So Francis, welcome. Thank you so much for being with us. We cannot wait to hear more about your story. Why don’t you go ahead and tell us a little bit more?

 

Francis: Sure. Well first of all, it’s so good to be with you guys. I am so glad that you’re back doing this.

 

Julie: Thank you.

 

Francis: It was just such a resource that I used in my pregnancy, and so I am so glad that there are more episodes for women to listen to, and hopefully be inspired by, and learn from. You guys are just amazing and congratulations on all that you guys have been up to. And Julie, I think that’s awesome that you are doing birth photography. We had a birth photographer at all three of our births and it’s just something that I hold so precious and dear to my heart. So I think it’s incredible that you are doing that and giving that back to moms as well.

 

Julie: Aw, thank you.

 

Meagan: I would totally agree with you. It’s actually one of my biggest regrets not having one at my birth. I wish so badly that I had someone there to take more pictures and videos so I could experience it from a different perspective too.

 

Francis: Yeah.

 

Meagan: Because when you are in the thick of it, it’s hard to even comprehend what is happening. I wish I could have just seen, I don’t know. I wish I could’ve seen it from a different angle. But yeah. She’s awesome.

 

Francis: Yeah. And you know, it’s funny. I didn’t even think about this as part of my birth story when I was thinking about it, but we did have a birth photographer with all three of my births and as you’ll hear, my first two births did not go as planned, but I still have the photographs from that and it actually really did help in my healing when I had the courage to go through them to look back and see, you know what? Even though this didn’t go as I thought it might, there is still a lot of beauty in my births.

 

Meagan: Absolutely. Yeah.

 

Francis: So I think it is for any woman. To have that moment captured is special, no matter how the birth turns out. You know?

 

Julie: Yeah, I love that. Thank you.

 

Francis: Yeah.

 

Julie: Nice plug-in.

 

Francis: Yeah I know, right? So speaking of– my first pregnancy was in 2012 and prior to getting pregnant, I had been introduced to homebirth by my sister who had a really beautiful homebirth for herself. Prior to her having a homebirth, I honestly didn’t really know that that was a thing that people were doing. I just assumed everyone had hospital births and that was just the way it was. And so when I saw her experience and I educated myself on what a homebirth was, I decided I really wanted that for myself.

 

So after I got pregnant, I looked into having a homebirth, but unfortunately in the state where I am at, it’s not real easy for midwives to operate in a homebirth setting. So it wasn’t in the cards for me, but I did find a freestanding birth center that was about 30 minutes from my home staffed by midwives and then backed up by physicians where I could give birth. I hired a really amazing doula and took a Birthing From Within class with her, and then I hired the birth photographer.

 

We had everything lined up. My pregnancy was super easy and very normal up until I got to about 40 weeks and started stressing out, like a lot of moms do. I knew it was normal and natural to go past 40 weeks, but I don’t know. I guess I just thought it would never happen to me. I don’t know. But I started to get really stressed out. I hit 41 weeks and my provider wanted to do an ultrasound to check the fluid and check in on baby. Everything was healthy, but they did end up measuring my baby and they estimated that my baby was over 12 pounds.

 

So as you can imagine, I really started to freak out. My provider was still supportive and supportive of me trying for a natural birth at the birth center if I could go into labor on my own, but I do know that it planted some seeds of doubt both with them and honestly within myself. But I do know that women birth big babies all the time and that ultrasounds can be wrong. 

 

So we moved forward. I luckily ended up going into labor on my own right before I hit 42 weeks. I had a long labor, but it was steady. I was at the birth center and everything was normal, kind of until it wasn’t. I didn’t know this at the time, but I ended up basically stalling at 8 centimeters for a number of hours and then my labor basically stopped. And so we decided to go to the hospital which was really devastating to transfer, but I knew it was necessary at that point. So we transferred. I did get an epidural and some Pitocin to try to pick things back up. But at this point, it had been 36 hours and I was just kind of ready to be over it. There was this question mark of how big my baby was and maybe my baby really wasn’t going to fit.

 

So I consented to a Cesarean and my baby did end up being really big. He was a surprise gender. He was a boy and he was 11 lbs. 2 oz. So not quite 12, but still really big.

 

Meagan: Wow.

 

Julie: Really big baby.

 

Meagan: Yeah.

 

Julie: That’s a big, chunky baby.

 

Francis: Yeah, exactly. So my Cesarean was fine. You know, physically I was fine. My recovery wasn’t bad. But I mentally struggled as I know a lot of Cesarean moms do. I was just really disappointed in the outcome. I went from really wanting a homebirth, to then being at the birth center, to then transferring to the hospital, and then having a Cesarean. I felt like a failure. And I know looking back now that I wasn’t, but it felt that way at the time. I’ve been a physically active person my whole life, and so I think for the first time ever, I really felt like my body failed me. That was really hard. I had a hard time swallowing that.

 

I also felt guilt. I felt like it was my fault, like maybe I ate too much pie and that’s why I had an 11 pound baby. Or maybe I should have kept trying at the birth center and not gone to the hospital. But either way, you know, it worked out the way it did. We were healthy, and that, of course, is the most important thing. But I was really– I did struggle for a while with that birth and just processing everything that I went through.

 

Fast forward a couple of years later, my husband and I decided that we were ready for another. I had regained some confidence in myself and in my body, and decided that I did want to go for a VBAC. I was able to go back to the birth center midwives from my prior pregnancy, but in my state, you can’t do VBAC out of the hospital, so they have admitting privileges in the hospital.

 

So I knew it meant an automatic hospital birth which was disappointing because again, I really didn’t want to be in a hospital environment, but I didn’t have much of a choice. But I found the midwives were really supportive and I was ready to go. We had the same doula and the same photographer, and everything was really great. And then at right about 40 weeks, I got cholestasis, which, I know you guys have covered on the podcast before, but it causes insane itching and it can be harmful to the baby.

 

So at that point, we decided I really needed to be induced. That was, again, really devastating, I had hoped to be able to go into labor on my own and labor at home as long as possible before going to the hospital, but having an induction that I knew in my heart was really medically necessary, I had to be at the hospital. 

 

I am super grateful our midwife group– I didn’t know a whole lot about VBAC protocol at the time with induction, but what I know now, I know that they really followed it to a T. We did a low and slow induction. We did a Foley and very gentle Pitocin. I was honestly kind of on and off Pitocin for about three days trying to get this baby to come out.

 

At the end of the third day, I think I had gotten to 3 centimeters. I got a cervical check and they felt my baby‘s ear instead of the top of her head, so she was almost completely sideways.

 

Julie: Oh wow.

 

Francis: Yeah. So that was obviously quite unexpected. We spent a little bit of time with the doula and the midwife trying to sort of shimmy and shake and get her to move, but after some time, it just wasn’t happening. I had already been there over three days. We had a toddler that was being shuffled around between family at home. I just knew in my heart at that point it was time to consent to another Cesarean.

 

That was a super difficult decision, but honestly, I came to it really feeling genuinely supported and that I had been involved in the decision making every step of the way, so it wasn’t a bad experience. Rght about that time, the concept of family-centered Cesareans was coming to the forefront, and so I was able to have a really gentle Cesarean. I did have a clear drape. I think I was the second person at this hospital to have a clear drape and it was fine. 

 

Again, I did end up having another really big baby. This was also a surprise gender. It was a girl. She was 10 lbs. 10 oz. So at that point, I realized I just grow really giant babies. Again, processing the Cesarean was difficult, but probably not as difficult as the first time just because I had been so well supported by everybody. You know?

 

So after that, life moved on. My husband and I weren’t entirely sure that we were done having kids, but pretty sure we were done having kids, and so I just fell into life. You know, work, being a mom. I unfortunately had a couple of really difficult personal situations that came about during the couple of years after my daughter was born. The biggest one being my mother was diagnosed with cancer and then passed away. That was really difficult.

 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s heavy. Heavy, heavy.

 

Francis: Yes. Yeah, very.

 

Meagan: I’m sorry.

 

Francis: Thank you. I decided I really needed to take some time to work on myself. You know? So I found an amazing counselor who I went and saw very frequently. We just spent a lot of time processing everything. Some of that, of course, was my births, and processing the trauma of my births, and just those feelings of failure, and disappointment, and guilt. And then, we just spent a lot of time processing everything else that life throws at you.

 

Through that, one of the things, and probably the most important thing, that I learned was that I have really good instincts. I think that honestly, most of us do, especially mothers. We have really good instincts, but it takes some time, and some practice, and some patience to learn how to trust them and how to follow them. Going through all of the counseling really helped teach me how to lean in to my intuition and how to trust my gut. That was an experience that just has obviously helped me in every area of life.

 

Julie: That’s such a valuable thing to learn.

 

Francis: Yeah.

 

Julie: It’s a hard way to learn it, but it’s such a good skill to have and a good thing that came out of that.

 

Francis: Yeah, exactly. Yep.

 

So I was in a really good place and then 2020 happened, right? The pandemic and then in July 2020, I found myself surprised pregnant. Obviously, my husband and I had not closed the door on having children, but we weren’t really planning on it. So when I found out I was pregnant, it was a bit of a shock. Honestly, it took us a little bit of time to really get excited about it. It was just such a surprise that we weren’t really sure how to feel about it, but eventually, we did come to be very surprised. To be honest, I didn’t know right away whether I wanted to try for a VBAC again. And honestly, I didn’t know whether it was an option for me, like whether the hospital would allow me to or whether my personal circumstances were right for a VBAC.

 

So I started doing a little bit of research and then seeking out some opinions and taking into consideration my personal circumstances. And I do have, like I’ve mentioned, I have a history of big babies. I had cholestasis in my last pregnancy. I had this “failed VBAC”. I was almost 40 years old and was just like, “I don’t know. Is this a good idea for me to try for a VBAC? What happens if I fail again? What does that mean?” So I really spent some time thinking about it and I did briefly check out a different healthcare provider just to see if maybe a change in my provider would be helpful. Also, this one was a bit closer to my house. I’ll never forget at that first appointment, I was just trying to feel out what my options would be and they said to me, verbatim, “No doctor at this hospital will ever support you in a VBAC.”

 

I just remember thinking like– I didn’t know a lot at that time about a VBAC after two Cesareans, but I knew that that didn’t feel right.

 

Meagan: Yeah.

 

Francis: Yeah. That like, “Wait. I don’t have a decision in what happens to my body?” I knew that didn’t feel right. And so I decided. I was like, “Okay. I’m not going to stay with this practice. Let me do more research and let me seek out additional opinions.”

 

So I ended up going back to the midwives with the birth center that I had been with before for my prior two pregnancies. And again, they only do VBAC in the hospital. I inquired with them whether they would take me on and they said, “Yes.” They did share some of the same concerns as me, but ultimately they did support me in being a part of the process and making a decision of what happens with me and my baby. So at that point, that’s when I found you guys.

 

Meagan: That’s really how it should be, by the way. When you said that, it reminded me of my conversation with my old doctor. I went to go get my medical records and he said, “Good luck. No one is going to want you out there.” And it was like, “Okay.” And it wasn’t even like, “Yeah. Let’s talk about it,” or “Let me tell you why I don’t feel comfortable with it.” You know?

 

Francis: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Well, anyways. Yeah. I felt that someone shouldn’t be making that choice for me. If I choose not to try for a VBAC, that’s my choice. But for someone else to just say, “No. You must have major surgery.” It just didn’t feel right and it didn’t sit well with me.

 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah.

 

Francis: But luckily, I was able to go back to my previous provider and find support. I know a lot of women don’t find that, so I was really lucky in that regard. At that point, that’s when I really, really start a diving deep into VBAC research and that’s when I found you guys. I looked at all of the research you put out. I started listening to your podcasts and all of the other stories, and it really gave me strength and confidence. 

 

One of, perhaps, I think the most important things is in listening to other women’s stories, it opened my eyes to this possibility of this perfect “birth” that I had in my head before. It didn’t have to be like that. I could accept a hospital birth or I could accept interventions and that could still be a beautiful birth. It doesn’t have to be this like, I don’t know, what you see in a movie or just that perfect, serene birth. I realized and I accepted that I could open up my mind. Things might turn out not precisely like I hope they do, but that could still be okay. You know?

 

Julie: Yes. I love that.

 

Francis: I really shifted my mindset and in this pregnancy, I didn’t worry about all the things that sometimes people do. I really just focused on taking care of my mind and taking care of my body.

 

I did do chiropractic care, and I also did– I don’t know if you guys have heard of the Arvigo abdominal massage? I did that.

 

Meagan: No. What is that?

 

Francis: Oh. Yeah, so it’s really interesting. It’s a Mayan technique and it’s an abdominal massage. It’s actually really great after a Cesarean. It really helps with scar tissue. But even during pregnancy, it just– I actually don’t know all of the benefits of it other than for one, it feels really great. I think it can help with the round ligaments and stuff. It just helps the positioning of your baby and I don’t know. I found it really relaxing and comforting, so I did do that.

 

I also did go to an acupuncturist and overall, just stayed active and well. But I did all those things not for some arbitrary reason, but because it made me feel good. So I really just focused on that.

 

With this different approach to this pregnancy and accepting that things might turn out differently than what I had initially hoped, I shared all of this with my provider. I think that was super helpful because I think that they realized that I was in this mental space where I knew I could trust myself and I could trust my instincts and make the right decisions. In turn, they really trusted me. So it really helped in that and having support from them.

 

One of the things, though, that did bring up some concern was that I did do a maternal fetal medicine consult about halfway through just to talk about my prior Cesareans and go over my operative history. One thing that came up that was a bit unexpected was in my second Cesarean, the surgeon had noted that I had really dense adhesions from my first Cesarean. He put almost a note in there to say, “A note to future surgeons, you might experience a prolonged surgery because of all of this dense scar tissue that was in there.”

 

Julie: Interesting.

 

Meagan: Well, and I actually wonder if the dense scar tissue extended– because you said you made it to 8, and you stalled, and you made it to 3. We just had a client that, same thing. She only made it to 3.5 and her body was in active labor. Her cervix just wasn’t going and she had super dense adhesions.

 

Francis: Yeah. I mean, for sure. I don’t really know, obviously, all of the ways that it can affect you, but I am sure, it’s not natural to have all of that scar tissue in your abdomen, right? It’s there because you’ve had this major surgery. So the one thing, though, that they did mention and why it concerned them is they said that if I attempted and it ended up in an emergent situation, it might not turn out well for me because they wouldn’t be able to get through all of that scar tissue super quickly either to save my baby or me, right?

 

That was a little bit scary to hear, but my first thought was like, “Well, if I have got all of the scar tissue and it’s going to be super hard to open me up, don’t you guys just not want to have to open me up? Wouldn’t the best case scenario be to just not have another surgery?”

 

Julie: Right?

 

Meagan: And avoid that completely? Yeah.

 

Francis: Right. And add more scar tissue. I know when you have these adhesions, they can accidentally cut into your bladder or things like that. So I was like, “Well, isn’t it best case scenario just to not have surgery?” And they were like, “Oh, yeah I guess so.” It was kind of funny, almost like they hadn’t really thought of that option, but they wanted me to schedule a repeat Cesarean before I went into labor so they could do it on their own time so they wouldn’t have to rush. Which on the one hand, I understand, but the other hand I was like, “Well, let’s just try to not cut me open at all.” Right?

 

The other thing too with that was again, I really trusted myself to be able to make the right decision and I trusted that if I were to attempt a VBAC and get to the point where a Cesarean was necessary, that I was capable of making the decision to head to the OR before it was an emergency. I had done that twice before, you know? The other thing too was I had done the research. I know you guys have talked about this before how rare uterine rupture really is and that’s kind of like the big deal with VBAC’s, right? Also, not only how rare it is, but then when there is rupture, how few of them are really catastrophic. You know? It seemed a little bit silly to go in for a Cesarean just because there was a one in 1000 chance that I might have a catastrophic rupture. 

 

Julie: Yeah, exactly.

 

Francis: Yeah. So ultimately, I respectfully appreciated their professional opinion, but decided I still wanted to go for a VBAC. So anyways, I went for it again. Basically, the rest of my pregnancy proceeded as normal. As far as I know, I did not get the cholestasis again. I did take some herbals that maybe played a role, but I didn’t get itchy, so I was super happy about that. Although, I was in my head in it a lot about it. If you think about being itchy, you can find an itch on your body right now. You know? So it was hard not to be paranoid about it. 

 

But ultimately, I avoided getting it which was great. So I didn’t have to be induced, because I was worried about that. My pregnancy continued to progress and I did again go past 40 weeks. There were times when I was mentally struggling, but my husband, and my doula, and photographer were super supportive. I was able to lean in on them for support.

 

I did start having a little bit of prodromal labor about 40 weeks and that was really exhausting, but it was reassuring that something was happening. I was taking the wins where I could find them. As I approached 41 weeks, I started to feel a little bit of pressure about how late I was going to go again. I did agree and scheduled an ultrasound to check on the fluid and check on the baby, but I made it very clear that I would not consent to them measuring my baby because I just thought, “What good does it do to talk about the size of my baby at this point? I know I grow big babies. It’s got to come out one way or the other.”

 

Julie: Yes!

 

Francis: Let’s just not even talk about it.

 

Julie: Absolutely.

 

Francis: There were a couple of the midwives that would make comments about it that rubbed me the wrong way, but I did my best to just brush it off. Because again, this baby is coming out, so what good does it to really think too much about how big it’s gonna be?

 

As luck would have it though, I didn’t even get to that ultrasound. I didn’t have to put my foot down, but I was prepared to, to not have them measure my baby. So I ended up going into labor on my own. It was about 41 weeks. I happened to have an appointment with my favorite midwife and she just put me into this really peaceful place. Sure enough, that night, I went into labor.

 

It started overnight and was kind of slow. My husband was in the other room, so I was up by myself for a bit and about 5:30 in the morning, I realized I was struggling to cope on my own. So I woke him up and he came into the room with me. About an hour later, he ended up calling our doula. Actually this time, we were only allowed one support person in the hospital other than my husband, so our photographer who had been with us before was double dutying as my doula.

 

Julie: Nice. That’s called a doula-tog. A doula photographer. I do that sometimes.

 

Francis: Yeah. She’s been with us in all of our births and she’s had birth experiences of her own that she can really relate to, so she was really great filling both rolls. She came over because my husband, and we laugh about this now, but he was like, “You were making noises that I was really scared of.” So he called her over to help me and my labor did slow down a bit, when things kind of picked up. Some people came over to pick up my other children. I think that’s pretty normal. 

 

But then once everyone left and my birth space was undisturbed, my labor really picked up really quickly. I was contracting about every 3 to 4 minutes I think. A solid minute contraction and after a little bit, I started throwing up. In my labor with my son, I started throwing up when I was pretty far along, so I was like, oh my gosh. Maybe this is really happening quickly. Like, we should go to the hospital.

 

We headed over to the hospital which was about 30 minutes and not really a fun drive, but we made it. We got checked in and I knew I wanted to labor in the tub for a little bit. They just have hospital, small tubs but I was allowed to get in and they had the wireless monitors. I wanted to get checked just to know where I was starting from and I was only a 2. I was so defeated.

 

Julie: Oh, that is so discouraging. Oh my gosh.

 

Francis: Yeah. Yeah, I know. There’s part of me that regrets finding out but it is what it is, right? But I knew at that point, I was like, “Okay. I am going to switch my mindset.” I already saw drugs in my future which I had decided I was totally okay with, but I wanted to see how much farther I could get. So I got in the tub and it really slowed down my labor, so my doula made me get out. I think I fussed and complained at her. I got out and I tried nitrous, but it did nothing for me. I’m honestly not even sure if that thing was actually working. 

 

I decided at that point, I was like, “Just give me the epidural.” The other thing too is, maybe this is coming from a little bit of an athletic background, I was really having trouble holding tension in my pelvic floor and in my bum. I just couldn’t release, and so I knew that the epidural would help with that. That’s one of the things that I have learned on this podcast and listening to other women’s stories is that sometimes you can use these interventions to your advantage. Getting an epidural doesn’t mean that that’s the end of it for you. You can use it as a tool in your tool kit.

 

Julie: Absolutely. It’s available if you need it.

 

Francis: Exactly. I knew at that point I did need it. So I got the epidural. I was only 3 centimeters and that really scared me because I really wanted to be farther along, but I did it anyway. I labored for a bit and then I got checked again and I was– I probably had been at the hospital about 12 hours at this point. I’m still only 3 cm and I was like, “What am I doing? Like why am I doing this?”

 

The midwife that happened to be on call was such a saint. I look back and I’m like, “I couldn’t have landed with a better midwife for me.” She looked me in the eyes. She said, “I will not recommend anything that will put you and your baby in harms way, but I will do everything in my power to help you achieve a vaginal birth.” It was just so reassuring to really know that she had my back. We did start Pitocin at that point, which I know can be a little bit controversial in a VBAC or a VBAC after more than one Cesarean, but we did a really slow Pitocin and I could tell it was working. I did have an epidural, but I could feel it working.

 

I continued to labor throughout the night into the early morning. I tried to catch some rest, but there were definitely times I was looking around and like, my husband was trying to sleep on the floor and our doula photographer was there with us this whole time and I was just like, “Gosh.” I felt almost guilty, like I was putting them through the ringer with me. I just kept having these feelings like, “Will I end up in another Cesarean? I’m doing all this for nothing.”

 

But I tried to quiet those doubts as much as I could and at one point in the middle of the night, I felt a pop and a gush of fluid. I called the nurse and I was like, “Hey, either I’ve just peed myself or my water broke.” She came in and confirmed it was my waters, so that was exciting.

 

Julie: Yay!

 

Francis: I was like, “Okay. Something’s happening, right?” And then, as I was laying there trying to catch some rest, I could feel that I was having some pressure in my bum and my sacrum, but I didn’t want to get too excited, so I kept it to myself. It was probably about 3 o’clock in the morning. My midwife had been tending to a couple of other women and she was going to try to catch some rest, so she was like, “Well, let me just check you really quick.” When she was doing it, I knew that it was a do or die moment for me. If I hadn’t progressed anymore at that point, I felt like that was going to be it. So I was really, really nervous.

 

She went to check me. She didn’t say a word and she had this poker face. She checked me. She went to the sink and washed up. My heart is pounding, right? Like, “Oh my gosh.” She walks over to my bedside and then she looks at me and she said, “Francis? You’re more dilated than you’ve ever been in your life.”

 

Julie: Yay!

 

Francis: And I just– yeah. I let out this scream and everybody in the room was cheering. I think the nurse might have even shed a tear. That was the first moment where I was like, “Oh my god. This might actually happen.” So I did labor down a little bit longer and at one point, the nurse rushed in. She had me change positions and got me on my hands and knees and I knew. She wasn’t saying anything, but I knew that that meant they were having some sort of concern about baby. I tried not to panic, but I was really scared.

 

The midwife got called in. She gave me another check and she was like, “You’re at 10 centimeters. Let’s just get this baby out.” So I was like, “Let’s do it.”

 

Julie: “Let’s do it.” I love it.

 

Francis: So my doula was like, “Hey, do you want the squat bar?” I was like, “Yes. Give me the squat bar.” Coming from an athletic background, I was so excited to feel useful. I was like, “Alright. Let’s go.”

 

I had never pushed before, so I didn’t know what that was like. I was being coached. I was using the squat bar, basically squatting on the bed using the bar and apparently, according to the midwife, was really doing a good job. After about 45 minutes, my baby was right there. She was like, “Come down. Touch your baby’s head.” I touched his head, and then she had me lean back a little bit. We did some of those slow, panty pushes to do it pretty slowly.

 

I felt my baby’s head come out, and then she had me push again for the shoulders. I could tell when I did that that she had a little bit of trouble, but he ended up coming out really without a problem.

 

I really wanted to catch my baby. My husband was amazing support throughout all of it, but he had zero interest in being part of that process. And so I was like, “Well, I want to catch my baby then.” So my midwife was like, “Well, reach down and catch your baby!” So I reached down and she helped me, and I brought him up to my chest. He was beautiful and perfect, and it was that moment that I know we all dream about. Our photographer caught that moment and I have shared it on your Facebook page before. It’s a little bit graphic. Not too much so, but it was just– you can see it in my face. I was just in heaven.

 

My baby was on my chest for all of the nurse checks and everything. I remember when he was laying there, I was like, “Oh, I think he’s my smallest baby. He’s so small.” And then finally, they came and took him to do the weight and the measurements, and he ended up being 10 lbs. 12 oz. and 22.5 inches.

 

Julie: Wow!

 

Francis: He was not my biggest baby, but my second biggest and I just couldn’t believe it. You know? Like, “Oh my gosh. I pushed that baby out of my body!”

 

Meagan: Yeah!

 

Francis: I did have some tearing. It was a third-degree tear and my midwife said it was from his shoulders. She did say he didn’t have dystocia, but she had to give some traction, I think, is what she said. But I was repaired right there in labor and delivery and honestly, I didn’t care because I had my baby with me and I was just in euphoria.

 

The recovery was not a walk in the park, but so much better than a Cesarean. I avoided major abdominal surgery. 

 

One of the things in my birth plan– I had this long birth plan– but at the very beginning, I said that I had birth goals. These were my goals. This is where I’ll get emotional. Sorry. I said, “I wish for a healthy mother and baby, both physically and emotionally. For my intuition to guide me and to be trusted by those around me. For labor to begin and continue as hands off as possible and to feel heard, empowered, and respected.” 

 

At the end of the day, my birth checked all those boxes. I couldn’t have asked for more. I have no doubt that your podcast played a huge role in my success. If me sharing my story can help just one other woman achieve her own birth goals, then I am just overjoyed. So thank you so much for giving me this opportunity to share my story.

 

Julie: Aww.

 

Meagan: Wow. I have tears in my eyes right now.

 

Francis: Aww. You guys are so sweet.

 

Meagan: I just felt that. When you were talking about when you reached down and grabbed your baby, it was like I was flashing back to my son‘s birth. I just remember that feeling and I was feeling it for you. It’s such an incredible feeling to reach down there and feel the baby’s head, and pull him out, and have that support, and what your midwife said too. I am so happy for you and so proud of you.

 

Francis: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. Like I said, I really, truly feel like I could not have done it without you guys. I really mean that. I know you’ve heard that before, but it’s the truth.

 

Julie: Well, I just don’t think– I can safely speak for Meagan when I say we probably won’t ever get tired of hearing that. We love it!

 

Meagan: I don’t think we will because this is what we are here for. This is what we want to do. We want to help. We want to empower. We want to inspire. We want to guide. We want to educate. We want to create that community where it’s not even just us, right? It’s you guys helping others and feeling that support all around the world. You have people rooting for you and you don’t even know where they are at. That’s what we want. That’s what we want. We want our mission here too be better and make birth after Cesarean better. Sometimes, that means a repeat Cesarean and that’s okay. Listen to how healing it can be.

 

Francis: Yeah.

 

Meagan: Especially coming back for the first podcast after taking so much time, it’s so refreshing to hear, “Hey, this is still what people love and this is what people want. They want to hear the stories. They want to see all the stories.” The emotion I just felt with you sharing your story, and I’m not even pregnant or having anymore kids and I’m feeling it. I’m just imagining being in that room with you guys and cheering as you’re the furthest dilated that you’ve ever been. That’s such a huge moment. Just so many fun things. I am so glad to be back.

 

Julie: Yeah. I love it. I think it’s so incredible. I just think back– I know Meagan, maybe you are doing the same thing, just all the births I have attended as a doula and now I get to do that as a birth photographer– of parents who have had these babies over 10 pounds. I feel like sometimes maybe the big ones come out a little bit easier because they have gravity working on their side, right? Gravity gets to pull on them a little bit easier.

 

Francis: True.

 

Julie: I am on call right now for a threepeat doula client, my third time being her doula. The babies that I was with for her last two, one was over 9 pounds and one was over 10. It’s not a VBAC birth, but her babies– She’s 5’1” by the way. She’s 5’1” and very petite. She births these ginormous, sumo wrestler babies. It’s just so fun to watch her labor and birth because she just doesn’t hold still. She’s constantly moving. There’s a lot to say about giving the birthing person time, and freedom, and space, and ability to let their body do what it needs to do instead of jumping to conclusions about the babies size and the ability of whether it will or will not work.

 

I think that that’s really cool that your midwife supported you in that way. It’s really just neat when you hear about providers wanting the type of birth you wanna just as much as you do and it really kind of felt like that’s what happened there for you. So it’s really cool.

 

Francis: Yeah. It did. It’s kind of funny because when I was seeking out opinions about whether I should go for a VBAC or not, and then of course just checking myself, honestly, the fact that I grow really big babies was almost not even brought up. It was all of the other things that were more concerning. Like the scar tissue, or my age, or potentially having cholestasis and maybe having to get induced or just go for a repeat Cesarean. So it was interesting to me. One of the things I think I was most fearful of when I was thinking about having a VBAC was whether my baby would be too big, but my provider almost didn’t even care. Do you know?

 

Julie: I love that.

 

Francis: That surprised me.

 

Five Tips for Birthing Big Babies

 

Julie: I love that. I love it a lot. Alright well, we are going to wrap it up but before we do, we have a blog all about big babies and how we can have the best chance at gettingg that big baby out vaginally. We are going to link it for you in the show notes. I am going to go over five tips for you right now. The first one is knowing the facts about macrosomia, which just means “big baby”. Macrosomia– it’s really interesting because different organizations define what makes a baby big differently. Some places define it as a baby that’s larger than 8 lbs. 13 oz. and some places define it as bigger than 9 lbs. 4 oz. I mean, your babies checked both of those boxes. So that’s okay. So either way, 8 lbs. 13 oz. or 9 lbs. 4 oz. 

 

So sometimes, there is a little bit of flexibility about what really makes s baby big. And also know that estimated fetal weight– the only way to actually know the actual size of your baby is birthing the baby and getting the measurements after it’s born. Ultrasound scans are notoriously inaccurate about measuring gestational weight. They can be off by a pound or two difference like yours. Your first was still really big, but about a pound different than what they measured it, right?

 

Francis: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

 

Julie: Yeah. The second thing you can do to help get a big baby out is hire a doula. Studies show that having a doula improves just about every single aspect of your birth and delivering a large baby is no exception about that. A skilled doula will help you communicate your needs and your perceptions to help realize your dream of having a healthy, positive birthing experience. 

 

There are actually a lot of statistics that prove how doulas improve birth outcomes. They actually reduce your chances of having a C-section by 39% which is really cool for my data-junkie brain. 

 

The third thing you can do is move as much as possible, even with an epidural. Moving, switching sides, even just moving your legs a little bit every few contractions is going to help keep your pelvis being flexible and help create that space for your baby to move down. 

 

We say in our blog, “ditch the epidural”, but you don’t actually have to to have an unmedicated birth in order to birth or to have a VBAC or to have any vaginal delivery. Go as long as you can without getting it, but it’s okay if that’s a lower number than you want. As we talked about earlier, an epidural is a great tool to have in your toolbox if you need it. Knowing how to use an epidural and how to move, and a doula is a great way to help you utilize this tool properly. As long as you are not laying down and staying still in one spot for too long, that’s the biggest thing you need to take away from that.

 

And the fifth one, we say, “believe in your body.” I know I’m probably going to get a lot of eye rolls for this. “Believe in your body. Woosah. You can’t always manifest your baby your out.” Yes. That is very true. Sometimes things happen, and interventions are needed, and Cesareans are life-saving. We definitely believe that and we have seen it. But there is a lot to be said in believing in yourself, and believing in your baby, your body that knows that it can do this and that it is designed for the birth process, and having that confidence going into it and having the confidence in yourself, and your birth team, and your support environment. If you don’t have that confidence, do whatever you need to do or change whatever you need to change in order to create that confidence and that belief in your environment because where doubt exists, that brings in the uncertainty that can shift your entire birth experience.

 

I’m going to end that with a period and an exclamation point. Meagan, what would you add in there? I’ve been talking for a few minutes.

 

Meagan: No, you’re just fine. I mean, I feel like we have talked about the intuition and mama’s gut the whole time. But I love that during your pregnancy and everything, you were able to hone in on that and not only learn what intuition necessarily is, but how to really tune into it because especially for birth and especially for a VBAC– I want to say it’s for anyone. It really is, but with VBAC, there is so much coming at us with all the things. For instance, when you went to that different provider and they were like, “Yeah, no. Not one person in this hospital is going to touch you. Like, no.” A lot of people would be like, “Oh, okay. There’s that many doctors that won’t even see me. I better just have a C-section,” which is totally fine if that’s what their intuition is how they feel. 

 

But a lot of the time, I feel like it’s hard to tune into that intuition and to be like, “Wait. I still feel like I should probably still get some other opinions.” Right? Versus just being told what I said to you. I think that if we can, in life in general, just learn how to tune in to that intuition and really how to follow it, I think it’s going to help us in so many things in life in general. That’s one of the highlights of your story that I got because I had to personally work through a lot of that during my pregnancy because I was told that I would rupture if VBAC’d and I didn’t realize how much that impacted me, but it impacted me. But my intuition was telling me otherwise, right? Anyway. That was one of the biggest things I took away. One of the biggest takeaways from your story is learning how to hone in on your intuition, following it, and trusting it. Trusting your gut.

 

Francis: Yeah, precisely. Hit it on the nose.

 

Julie: Alight.

 

Meagan: I– yeah.

 

Julie: Oh, go ahead.

 

Meagan: I was just going to say, I love it. I loved everything about your story. So thank you so much for kicking us off with such a great empowering story.

 

Julie: Yes. It was the perfect story for our welcome back. Francis, it was such a joy to have you on and share your story today. But before we leave, we want to ask you– I think I might know what the answer is– but I am going to ask anyways. What is your best tip for somebody preparing for birth after Cesarean?

 

Francis: Well first, I thought you were going to ask whether I was going to have more children. And I am like, “Hard no.”

 

Julie: I’m right there with you.

 

Francis: That door has been closed. Yeah. I think it is, it’s what I think– Meagan, what you just talked about is learning, taking the time to focus on yourself and your mental health. I think ideally before you get pregnant, but you can obviously do that while you’re pregnant if you’re already pregnant. But taking the time to really focus on your mental health and learn how to trust yourself because we all have good instincts. We just have to know where to find them sometimes.

 

Julie: Oh I love that. “We all have good instincts. We have to know where to find them sometimes.” I’m going to make a social media post about that. Just one second while I write it down.

 

Francis: You guys are too sweet. I appreciate it.

 

Julie: Maybe it will go on a shirt. I don’t know. I need to start making shirts again.

 

Meagan: I know.

 

Francis: Do I need to trademark that real quick?

 

Julie: Yes, you need to.

 

Meagan: She’s like, “Wait a second.” Yeah. Trademark that for sure.

 

Julie: I will credit you. What’s your social media? Should I tag you?

 

Francis: No no, not necessary. Thank you though.

 

Julie: Okay. Speaking of shirts, we do have a bunch of VBAC shirts available for you to purchase if you want to rock, and represent, and support the podcast. You can find them at thevbaclink.com/bonfire if you want to head over there and rock some swag from the VBAC shop. 

 

So, Francis. You’re amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us today and everybody else, good luck on your journey. We are so excited to be back along for the ride with you.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Today we are joined by our dear friend, April, who is sharing her second VBAC birth story with us after three previous Cesarean births.

April had two traumatic, emergency Cesareans for her first two births and a scheduled Cesarean for her third. Her first VBAC was a very heartbreaking yet tender birth to a stillborn at 36 weeks. She shares the many miracles and sweet experiences that led her to her most recent birth-- her second VBAC to a perfectly healthy, beautiful baby girl.

Education, great support, trusting her intuition, finding the courage to be unconventional, and asking questions are all big parts of her story. She is a woman of strength in every way. We know her story will inspire you as much as it inspires us! 

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome, welcome. It is Wednesday and it is podcast Wednesday. I am really excited for today’s story because our interview today is with April. April is actually one of my doula clients and she has-- oh my gosh. We could probably take three or four hours to share the whole story and all of the intricacies of how everything played out in her birth. But we are not. We are going to try to keep it super short. It’s probably going to be a little bit hard for us. So bear with us while we try and keep this story to under an hour and get on there with it. 

But April has had three C-sections, and then she had a VBAC after three C-sections that was a 36-week stillborn, and then she went on to have another VBAC after three C-sections with a healthy baby girl. That’s when I supported her as a doula for her second VBAC after three C-sections.

I really admire April a lot. I am going to talk a little bit, maybe at the end if we have time, about her relationship with her provider and how she created this really cool, mutual respect and dynamic between them. If not, we are going to have to just have another podcast episode about me just telling about the cool things I experienced there. She is just fresh off the VBAC, like just over a month fresh off of her VBAC. It is such an incredible story, but I don’t want to take up too much time sharing about it because I want her to be able to share as much as she can. 

Review of the Week

Julie: But before we do that, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.

Meagan: Yes I do. This is from holmclaugh90. This is on Apple Podcasts and the title is, “I listen every single day.” It says, “After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second! Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing I can do this!”

And October has passed. This was last July, so if you are still listening, holmclaugh90, send us a message. We would love to hear how it turned out.

Julie: Absolutely.

April’s story

Julie: All right. We are going to get right into April’s story. Education, good support, listening to your intuition, trusting yourself, being grateful, giving yourself lots of grace, knowing that it’s okay to say “no” and ask questions, these are all big parts of her story. We are just going to let her take it off and then see where this story flows. All right, April. Are you ready?

April: I hope so. Yeah. Well, I just want to thank you for the opportunity to be on the podcast and share my story. I hope it will be helpful to at least one person out there. I know that when I found The VBAC Link this past fall actually, at the beginning of this last pregnancy, it was a tremendous resource and I have been telling everybody about it ever since. I’m sure Julie is totally okay with that.

Julie: I am totally okay with it.

April: But I just can’t even tell you how grateful I am that this resource is out there. I am not paid to say this by any means or anything like that. I ended up hiring Julie as a result of listening to the podcast and actually going to your website. I think I actually did a lot of that through your emails and your blogs probably more than even the podcast, just looking at it and finding specific information for the things that I needed at the time because it can be very overwhelming for those of you that are already on a VBAC journey or wanting to pursue that. 

Sometimes it’s just a lot of information and depending on what your circumstances are and maybe what your past history and trauma is, there could just be so much and you can go in so many directions. If you’re like me, my brain is really creative and does that on its own anyway, so I was just really grateful for Meagan and Julie and the whole VBAC Link community and team for putting together more bullet-point information where I could find exactly what I needed when I wanted it. So thank you for having me on.

Okay. So to get into my story, I already invited Julie and Meagan to interrupt and to help ask questions to keep me on track, but I am going to go over it like a summary first, and then maybe we will just dive into stuff after that. 

When I was 18, I was pregnant for the first time. I and my husband were expecting our daughter. I really didn’t know. You just don’t know what you don’t know, right? As an 18-year-old who was entering motherhood and really excited and grateful for it but also terrified, it was a big transition in my life at the time too. I just didn’t know a lot about birth in general.

I really had a lot of trust in providers who I think are really great people, but I just didn’t know what to ask and I didn’t know how to really prepare for birth other than watching birth story shows and random information like that. Probably not the best resources, guys. Anyway, after a pretty smooth pregnancy, I ended up having an emergency Cesarean with her. Hers was due to a cord being wrapped around her neck which we didn’t know until I got to the pushing phase and her heart rate kept dropping and went so low, and didn’t want to come back up after the third time. And so we were rushed immediately to an emergency Cesarean.

During that Cesarean, I am not sure. I actually only found out when we had our stillbirth later. I was actually given extra insight as to what exactly happened during that first birth but apparently, I had possibly some amniotic fluid or something get into my bloodstream and it caused-- I am still not sure if it was a pulmonary embolism or it was some type of embolism. I still need to go and actually find out exactly what happened. But it was a life-threatening situation as a result of that Cesarean. 

And so not only was it not the birth story I wanted, my daughter thankfully was healthy and okay after being monitored in the NICU for a little bit because she had meconium in her fluid when she was born, but on top of that, I barely got to see her. I got to say “hi” to her and give her a kiss as my husband brought her around from the drape to me. I looked over at my anesthesiologist who was on my other side and I don’t know why but I couldn’t move anything other than my head. I looked at him and was just pleading with my eyes because I, for some reason, couldn’t even do any type of motion or sound or anything.

Thankfully, he realized something was wrong and told me that he was going to put me out and I would be okay. The next thing I knew, I woke up and it was six hours later. She was being brought to me in the recovery area, the mother and baby, and I had missed it. I had missed the first six hours of her life and that was really hard for me. That was really traumatic for me. I did not love that. I was grateful at the time and still am that we had the ability to deliver her by Cesarean and whereas that was probably truly necessary for her to be born that way, it was still really traumatic and it was really sad. 

I was really hoping when I got pregnant with my second that we wouldn’t have to do that again and I would be able to be the first one to hold her-- or to hold him this time. It was my boy. And be able to have those moments together peacefully without the drama around it. I prepared what I thought was preparing for a VBAC. I went and found a different provider and I asked them. 

That was one of the first things when they ask you, “What do you want and what are your questions and concerns with this pregnancy?” It was, “I would really like to have a VBAC and I will do whatever. Whatever you tell me to do to prepare for that and to hopefully make that successful.” I really wasn’t given any information. It was just kind of like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. Sure. We will just plan on that. Just do what you did before and nothing different.” No further information or education. And again, I just trusted that the providers knew best and didn’t really seek out any extra information on my own.

So I went through that whole pregnancy and again, it wasn’t too eventful, and then we got to birth. I went into the hospital and didn’t know, but I know now that it wasn’t the most friendly for VBACs in general. But again, I didn’t know. I was put on an epidural right away even though I didn’t really need one, but they were like, “Well, this is mandatory because you’re a VBAC.” There were a lot of interventions that were given right upfront that I wasn’t really told I had a choice with and I didn’t realize it was okay to say, “I don’t want to do that,” or to ask more questions, or just get more information about it. 

I just went with the flow because like I said, I just trusted the providers. I knew that I wasn’t a nurse or a doctor and I just figured because they knew that I wanted to have a successful VBAC and was vocal about that, that I assumed everybody was telling me the best advice to get that outcome.

So I went and had been laboring really well and progressing really well, and then as soon as I actually got into the hospital and was admitted, with the inventions that they did, my labor started to slow down significantly. It still was progressing but just a lot slower, and then after 17 hours-- so my daughter was 26 hours of labor before a Cesarean and my son was 17 hours. When we got to delivery at the 17-hour mark, we had the opposite happen with his heart rate. So whereas my daughter, when we started to push, her heart rate dropped, my son, they were like, “Okay. He is at a +1 now. Why don’t we--” because I was at a +1, but he had been there for an hour and so they were like, “Maybe we should consider starting to push,” and then just before I actually started to push, his heart rate skyrocketed for no reason that we actually could see.

And so they immediately were like, “Baby’s in distress. Something is wrong.” After-- I don’t even know exactly how many minutes because it happened really fast-- they were like, “Okay. We are going in for another Cesarean. We need to get him out right now.” They unhooked me from the epidural and brought me back to the operating room. Before I knew it, he was actually delivered. I wasn’t even numbed because they couldn’t get the epidural going fast enough. It was just really traumatic and really not what I wanted. But again, I was really grateful that my baby was healthy and here, and I survived it, and we still had, eventually, an outcome where both of us were okay and here. 

But the getting there part was not fun. So anyway. That was my VBAC experience. It was not great and it obviously had failed. So I just thought, “Okay. That’s it.” And then they had made me sign all this paperwork saying, “If it does fail, this is it. You get one chance and then it is Cesareans going forward with any other kids you have.”

And so three years later, we decided to have another baby again. I was with a different provider again and I asked them first thing, “Is that still the same rule or can I try for a VBAC” because I had learned more between now and then and I thought maybe I wasn’t given the best option. Now, I know I definitely wasn’t. And so I thought, “You know, maybe I still could do it.” Maybe we could have a better first moment with baby because my son had been taken into the NICU for monitoring as well and because I had not been numbed during the Cesarean, they knocked me out because I went into shock and I was on narcotic medicine for the first little bit, and so I was very in and out of it at the beginning of his life too.

I just really again missed that birth story that I was really hoping for, and those bonding moments at the beginning and everything, minus trauma for them and for me. And so I asked this provider with my baby number three, my second son, if we were still looking at the same thing or if we had to just plan on a Cesarean and they told me, “Absolutely not.” There was no choice for me, just because of the emergency Cesareans beforehand, and that I for sure had to schedule a Cesarean. That was it. We weren’t even going to have a discussion about it. 

I took that for what it was worth and I thought that was it and so I said, “Okay.” I didn’t know anybody that had had any VBACs after more than one Cesarean and so I really thought that that was the end-all and didn’t know any better. And so we had a planned Cesarean with him. It was the weirdest thing going into the hospital and delivering without being in labor. It was actually a beautiful experience. No drama, no unexpected events. I delivered him and they did take him away to give him his first bath right away, so I didn’t quite get the family-centered Cesarean that I think you can do now, but it was still better than it had been. It was very different but it was good. Both of us were safe and healthy and we were good.

And then years later, we decided to have our caboose baby, was what we termed it. We got pregnant with our fourth and there was a ten-year gap. The pregnancy went well up until the 20-week mark when we went in for our anatomy scan and we found out that she had a pleural effusion, which I had never heard of before, but it meant that there was fluid in between her chest wall cavity and her lungs. It was on one side. It wasn’t multiple pockets which would have been worse, but there was this pocket of fluid that they didn’t know what it was. They didn’t know what it came from. 

Of course, I went home and looked up statistics right away. 80% can be lots of scary things and often, not often I should say, but a lot of them don’t end up with good outcomes for babies. And then there is 20% that just magically show up and they magically go away, as the specialist put it.

And so it was really scary and stressful from 20 weeks on. We had extra ultrasounds to monitor it and we were just hoping and praying that it went away. They did extra bloodwork tests and stuff. We couldn’t indicate that it meant anything more than just possibly that 20% that just they don’t know why it was there and they don’t know why it goes away, but there wasn’t anything else that showed that it was going to be anything more than that. But we did have to monitor it to just hope that it went away. They were like, “If it’s present at birth, then we can possibly help or leave it then after birth, but in the meantime, we just have to watch it.” 

So that’s what we were doing. We had a lot of extra eyes on baby and me during the pregnancy. She was due in October 2019. Actually, she was due November 5, 2019. Sorry. She was born in October. So we got to our 32-week mark and had another ultrasound at that point. We had felt really lucky and we discovered that the pleural effusion had completely gone away at that point, so we thought we were the 20% that just got really lucky, and it was gone and it wasn’t a problem anymore. The specialist at that appointment said, “If we didn’t know this had existed in the first place, we wouldn’t be able to see any signs that it ever was there in the first place. So you are safe. You’re in the clear. You are good.” That was 32 weeks and so if baby does come early, we just thought we were “safe”.

And so then we went to our 36-week check-up thinking that, we had a month in between that appointment and that one, thinking that all was well and we were finally out of the woods. We were going to have this baby anytime now, and we were all ready, and had the nursery ready, and had all of the things, and we are really excited to be welcoming our little caboose baby to our family. My kids were, the older kids were 10 and-- gosh, I guess they were 10 and 13 and 15. No, probably 14 actually at the time. Oh no, sorry. Just barely 15.

Anyway, oh gosh. Now I am messing it up. Something like that, but teenagers basically. Anyway, it was very much a family affair. I went into the 36-week appointment. My husband had been able to go to most of them, but that one he had to work that morning, and so he went 45 minutes away from where I was to go to a job. I went to that appointment thinking that everything was great and we discovered that there was no heartbeat right at the very beginning. It was devastating to say the least. 

I don’t want to speed over too much but I know in favor of time I need to. So I am just going to sum up with, it was horrible. Child loss is, yeah. I don’t know. I can’t imagine anything worse than it. So yeah. It was crushing. There were no explanations when we found out and then later, at our six-week follow-up appointment, after they had done lots of testing on her and me, we never got any answers so I don’t know what happened or why, but her heart just stopped. It was just crushing in every way. 

We are religious and spiritual people and none of it flowed with anything that we had felt like we received as far as personal revelation and thinking certain things. It was all just a very confusing and really, really difficult time for all of us. And so that happened and there were miracles that happened out of the tragedy, but it was also hard because it is hard when you’re going through something so tough to say that anything good could come out of it because if given the chance you wouldn’t do the hard part at any moment. You know?

But there were some miracles that came out of it immediately and following in the days, and weeks, and months following. One of them was that our doctor was, I am just so grateful for him, our OB. During that appointment, after the initial shock and discussions about what to do next and everything, he did give me the surprise option of attempting to do a VBAC again. That’s where this unexpected VBAC came from with my fourth because he said that really for me, the risks were-- obviously, there was still that uterine rupture risk, but he was like, “The concern is to try and save both of you, and especially the baby if that happens.” 

So he was like, “I feel comfortable and as the provider--” There was a group of them and so as part of those actually going to be at the hospital if he wasn’t there, he wasn’t going to be there, so the providers at the hospital were comfortable allowing me to try for a VBAC and just doing it very, very slow, and just hoping that it went well. If it didn’t, we would end up doing an emergency Cesarean again, and then the alternative was just to do a Cesarean.

My husband wanted, “Let’s just go for a Cesarean again and get the baby out. We have waited this long,” and he was really afraid because of the traumatic birth trying for a VBAC before. He was afraid of what could happen, so he was like, “Let’s just do that and save ourselves any more drama.” And I don’t know-- well, I do know why. The only reason I can say why I felt peace and calm in that moment and why I knew to try for a VBAC again because it was the only option that felt good at the time and felt peaceful. I didn’t have any fear about it which was not like me because I usually overthink everything and have anxiety. So I decided when everything else felt so out of control and not my plan anyway, that if that one felt like the first step in something that didn’t just seem wrong when my world was upside down, then I was going to trust it and just go with what felt right.

And so we ended up going into the hospital and they mechanically induced me with a Foley bulb and a Pitocin drip. They were doing it in increments of 2. I’m not sure what they started me on.

Meagan: Usually, they do 2 every thirty minutes. A 2 is considered a low dose. 4 is still low but higher. 2 milliliters an hour every thirty minutes.

April: Yeah. That’s probably what it was then. I know it was 2 and so if it was every thirty minutes. Yeah, that sounds right. So we did that and then I got an epidural earlier on because my friends were like, “Why?” I had two friends come to visit us there in the hospital and they were just like-- at first, I wasn’t getting the epidural and they were just like, “You’re already going through so much pain. Why put yourself in any more physical pain on top of that? Let yourself take the edge off with an epidural and let yourself really focus on preparing to meet your baby and for the very few hours that you will have together.” You know, in preparation of that, and everything that was happening, and the loss, and everything.

So I did. I got the epidural and it was fine. We ended up after 43 hours, several days, we got our miracle. She was born vaginally and I only pushed for 15 minutes. It was beautiful and crazy. I did stall for quite a bit which was why it was 43 hours just because it was really slow progress from the entire second day, basically. But we had a lot of people praying for us, and we had priesthood blessings and other things, and finally, I actually took a nap which, I wasn’t really getting much sleep even at night because of the circumstances. It was difficult to sleep or to do anything really other than cry. And right before I delivered her, I actually was finally able to take a nap. I got a one-hour rest and when I woke up, my body had finally dilated fully. I was already fully effaced the whole time. But I finally dilated to a 10 and they were able to start pushing. And like I said, we pushed for 15 minutes and she was born. 

It was amazing. I literally had zero prep for a VBAC other than what I had done the 12-13 years before when I actually tried for a VBAC. And so it was truly, in my opinion, by the grace of God that it happened. And here we found ourselves in that terrible circumstance but also a miracle because we didn’t ever think we would have that experience. It was really awful and really beautiful at the same time because we were able to have what we never thought we would be able to and we were able to share those moments with our kids and with our newborn daughter who, even though was deceased, we were able to really spend a lot of time with her immediately after. It was all very sacred. There’s a lot of words that just don’t describe it, but just really sacred.

So that was our fourth birth and then this last time, we actually knew before we even went in to deliver that our fourth baby, our stillbirth baby at 36 weeks-- after the appointment, my husband, I called him because like I said, he had been at a job that was 45 minutes away from where we were and had to tell him the news over the phone. He raced to where I was and met us there because we were there for a couple of hours before we went home to prepare to go to the hospital to deliver. And when he met me there, we were talking things over with the doctor and our doctor told us, he was like, “I know that you’re not even thinking--” because I was supposed to actually be done.

We were planning the fourth and then I was supposed to have my tubes tied and everything because it was supposed to be another planned Cesarean, and so we were totally done and very mentally and emotionally content and prepared to be done having kids. And then when that curveball happened, everything was upside down. There was no discussion or forethought into any decisions past that. And so our doctor told us, “I know you haven’t even thought about this and you don’t have to make any decision or think about this right now per se, but I just want you to know that I would be willing to do a fifth Cesarean on you if you would like to try again for another child,” because before that, we had discussed that four was really the safest number for me for Cesareans, and so I really should be done after four. That was part of that decision to be done.

So anyway, the last thing on my mind during birth for our stillbirth daughter was to get pregnant again and to go through that again. Obviously, now with fear of, “What if this happens again?” and not even knowing why and everything, but after we lost her and spent a lot of time really, really getting close to God about a lot of things, we really felt strongly by the time that we even gave birth to her that we probably would try again. It didn’t make any logical sense other than it just was like I said. When so much of my world felt wrong, it was only one thing, and sometimes here and there, just something that would feel right and peaceful. That was one thing that did.

And so after we delivered her and we had our funeral and everything, we started having really strong feelings that-- this is going to sound really cray cray, at least it did to me, but my husband and I both started to have really strong feelings that the same little girl that we had lost really still wanted to be a part of our family and that if we were to get pregnant again, that she would come back to us.

Meagan: Oh, that just gave me the chills.

April: Yeah. It’s something that honestly, my husband and I had never, ever considered. We have had friends that have lost babies. Miscarriage and infant loss is not talked about as often as it probably really needs to be and should be, but one out of four women experience loss and that’s something that I didn’t know before. It’s really prominent. I don’t know how often this part of our story happens to others. I have no idea why it did for us other than I am just really grateful. I don’t think it has anything to do with-- I don’t know.

I laugh and I am like, “There are so much better people that, I think, probably deserve a miracle like that.” But it did for us. And the farther in after our loss, it was really hard too because we had a lot of support with the people that-- we didn’t just share it with anybody. It was really sacred and personal to us and when we did share it, we had-- most people were actually very open and supportive of it, and then occasionally, we would get somebody who was just really worried about us because you know, you love somebody and you don’t want them to suppress their grief.

They were really worried, I think, that we were going to go off the deep end, and in our grief, we were thinking that our dead daughter was going to come back in another body, and we wouldn’t grieve that baby, and we would think the new baby was the other baby. Something like that and there was just concern, right? It was really such a, just a crazy-- in a good way. I don’t mean that in a negative way, but a really wild experience.

During all of this time, we did decide to go ahead and get pregnant. I actually did this whole detox with the doctor to physically try to prepare as well as I could and do all these things in preparation for it, and at the same time, we were doing a lot of spiritual digging just personally, and as a couple, and as a family. We really got good at really getting comfortable with being uncomfortable, with letting other people being uncomfortable if they had-- I don’t know how to put this. Like, if somebody didn’t necessarily understand or support what we really felt and knew to be right for us, that it was okay.

It wasn’t our job to make ourselves uncomfortable or to tell a lie to make them feel comfortable. Does that make sense? And if so, we were like, “Okay.” And for me, I just tried to see everybody as coming from a place of love. You know, just like with our loss. Sometimes, people don’t say the most helpful things to you after you have lost because they want so badly to help you but they don’t know how and sometimes, what they say can be really hurtful and not helpful.

And so I started labeling things from that experience as not “good or bad”, but just “helpful and unhelpful”. I used that as I was preparing for this pregnancy and knowing that I wanted to try to do a VBAC again because we had been able to successfully do it, and now I knew that my body could do it and having that experience, I just knew that that was what we wanted and we could do it again. I felt really good about it again, for no necessarily logical explanation, I just knew that it was possible and that I should look into it more, and not just take everything that was given to me information-wise from a provider or whatever at just surface value. I should just ask questions, and look into it, and follow that intuition.

We were getting really good at that on every level, including spiritual, with what we felt was happening with our daughter coming back and in preparing for that. And so we decided to stay with our same provider because he had been there. Even though he wasn’t there at the delivery, he had been there through the whole pregnancy and on the day of finding out the news and everything. He had been really awesome. And so we just felt like there were a lot of miracles during the whole time between our provider, and with the hospital, and where we delivered which we loved. Shout out to Timpanogos hospital.

But we really just felt okay. God was really there in so many tiny, tiny details. Things that were really personal to us that you couldn’t overlook. A lot of it, for me-- I know Julie is kind of the same way. We talked about this. But in the past, I tended to find comfort in statistics and in concrete evidence, case studies. The nerd in me loves to comfort myself with the-- things that would make me more anxious about stuff, I would go and look for numbers. I would look for concrete evidence. I would look for the other in my favor. You know, that kind of stuff. My logic brain would turn on and that’s where I would find my comfort.

When we lost our daughter, I couldn’t go there anymore because we were the less than 1% of stillbirths and when I looked to statistics, the statistics were painful to see that stillbirths hadn’t really improved over the last many, many years. Just to see all of these statistics not only didn’t bring me comfort, but we’re hurtful. They didn’t give me any kind of logic. They actually made me more upset and, I hate using the word crazy, but that’s what they did. They drove me nuts because nothing about it was logical. It all was just in one, giant, lightning-bolt fluke.

And so that was, for me, more upsetting than anything. So I was walking this very personal, you could call it spiritual. You could call it learning to really be one with your own intuition, your gut instincts. You can call it a lot of things, but that’s what I had to do this entire last pregnancy. I couldn’t look to the numbers anymore just for comfort. I still would look at them, and then I would look to God and I would look to myself, and I would say, “Okay. Does it feel good? Does it feel right? Or does it feel like something is wrong? Do I feel like maybe I need to ask more questions or maybe there is more to that or maybe that is actually not correct information?” 

And so every doctor’s appointment, my OB was aware of what I wanted to do in getting pregnant again and trying for a VBAC. From appointment number one, we discussed it and we were vocal about what we wanted. We tried to get as much support as we could from a really great provider and group, but not the most VBAC supportive as we didn’t really know that upfront, but as we got toward the end of the pregnancy, and preparing for delivery, and during delivery actually, as Julie can attest. 

There was a lot of discussion about uterine rupture and everything. Basically, they talked about it leading up to delivery and our choices with that were put on the line again during delivery. We had to have all those discussions again while I was actually in labor. But it was really neat because it was all just practice to be ready and to be able to say, “Okay. This is what feels right and that doesn’t feel right.” It’s okay to say “yes” when it does and it’s okay to say “no” when it doesn’t. You know? Or to ask more questions, and have discussions, and to respectfully disagree with a provider but still have that love and care for each other and realize that we all want the same thing, but we just may not agree on how to get there.

Julie: Yeah.

April: And so we went into labor this last time, and they were really getting pushy, I will say, the entire last month of my weekly appointments and actually at the weekly appointments, but I also had NSTs, so I was actually getting it double because my NST tech would sometimes discuss, “Have they talked about your induction date yet? Are you doing a Cesarean this time?” And all of the stuff anyway.  It was actually funny, but Julie can tell you because we ended up hiring Julie actually very late in the game. Julie can say. I can’t remember exactly how far along I was. I want to say I was 30--

Julie: I think it was around 32 weeks. 30, 32.

April: Yeah. 32 or 34 weeks or something. Thirty-something like that and I had wanted to earlier on but I wasn’t sure with COVID and everything if she would be allowed in the room and with our loss before, I was like, “If I only get one person in that room with me, it’s going to be my husband.” And so when I found out I could have two people there physically with me, I was like, “Okay. I really think we need that other person so that when I am laboring, I don’t have to have all the discussions again and if they try to railroad me, I don’t have to exactly be 100% with all my facts and logic.” Do you know what I mean? Or having these long conversations, but I can focus on what I need to do and I can let my husband and my doula assist me in birthing positions and all the things that I need to help make it successful as well as having those educated conversations on the side with me and with providers.

I just felt like I really needed that extra person in our corner. I had really never even known what a doula was until this pregnancy. So it was really a lot of new stuff for us, but I had been reading a lot of birthing books this time. I had done so much research with your guys’ website and with other resources out there on what had even happened to my past births and, in preparation for this birth, just options, and learning to ask all the questions and not be afraid to find out the answers, and then to ask more questions. And so anyway, we did. We had Julie with us and I am so grateful. I don’t think we actually would have been a successful VBAC had Julie not been there. And not just Julie, but Meagan, I know you behind the scenes and others from The VBAC Link community--

Julie: Yeah. There were a lot of people cheering you on.

April: I know that we had a lot of people cheering us on and helping when we needed to. We stalled during labor. I know that we had a lot of help with suggestions of different positions to try to help her progress because she got stuck. We almost did the failure-to-progress at six hours when we thought we were about ready to push. I was 95% effaced and we were just before lunch. It was 11:15 or something like that. Julie, do you remember?

Julie: Yeah. You were at 9 centimeters for six hours.

April: Yeah. yeah.

Julie: It was at the six-hour check. Baby moved down just one station. Just enough for them to let you keep going. Just enough.

April: Yeah, just enough. It was so awesome. Just enough which was awesome. And so anyway, we did that and I’ve got to say again, God showed up big time because we literally sent out a text to friends and that entire last 45 minutes, Julie had felt really inspired to change up our plan of what positions we were going to do for this special circuit that worked out perfectly timing-wise. My husband gave me a priesthood blessing and literally during that blessing, which it’s, just to say for those who don’t know, it is a very personal, specific prayer with added authority. And anyway, during that, we heard her on the monitor totally move which, we hadn’t heard movement like that for a long time.

Julie: You could literally hear her moving down and into position on the monitor during the blessing.

April: It was so cool.

Julie: It was the coolest.

April: It was amazing. We knew that there were tons of people praying for us at that moment. So it’s just so cool and I swear that’s how we were successful last time too amongst all the other things. But yeah. And so we got to that part and sure enough, the doctor came in, and it was a doctor who had just got back on shift for the night shift again. We had actually gotten into the hospital the night before, and so it was the same doctor that we had the first conversation with when we went in. Julie and I think he was just the right doctor and she was waiting for him to get there because as soon as he got there, she moved and he checked again, and we were finally ready.

He was like, “Okay.” First, he said he was going to help move her. How did he phrase it?

Julie: He said he was going to try to turn her head because she was coming down a little asynclitic.

April: Yeah. He was like, “I won’t use forceps or anything. If you are okay with it, I will just reach up there and try to assist her because she is mid-spin. But I think if I can assist her with this little leftover cervical lip--” which was just a tiny bit. He said, “If I can help her get past that, then I think she will be ready and then we can start pushing.” And just before he did that, Julie was shocked. She told me this has never happened, but he got this look on his face and he said, “You know? Actually, would you be willing to push? Let’s just see what happens. Could you just give me a push and we will see?”

Julie: Like, push through the lip. No providers ever say that. They don’t say like, “Just start to push a little.” As doulas we are like, “Can she just push a little bit? It will probably push it away.” Meagan, do you hear that? It was just so crazy to me.

Meagan: Yeah. I hear it. The hard thing is, sometimes it is so stretchy that a little extra oomph will have the cervix slip over and then sometimes it goes the opposite way and it actually swells because you are pushing against a cervix that is not ready to stretch.

Julie: Yeah. That’s true. Yeah.

Meagan: And so once in a while, a provider will say, “Hey, can you just give me a little push, and then I will feel it. And then I will be like, ‘Oh it reduced and it stayed,’” but if it reduces and then it comes back, the cervix is not ready. So continuing to push isn’t usually the best idea. But for you, it worked. Yeah.

Julie: Yeah.

April: Wow, interesting. Yeah. It totally worked. And so yeah. He literally said that and we were like, “Okay. Yeah. We tried it and then he was like-- what did he say? “Oh yeah. We are ready. Okay.”

Julie: Oh yep. Cervix is gone. Keep pushing.

April: Okay. We need to push. We’re going to start pushing. And then they had already pretty much prepped the room hours before. But yeah. Then there was a little bit of extra commotion and he was like, “Okay, let’s start pushing-pushing. It’s time.” We only pushed for about 20 minutes and then he gave her a good pull at the end there. I was really hoping he wouldn’t pull on her and that did cause a little bit-- she had a tiny bit of shoulder dystocia right at the very end. It almost wasn’t even enough to call it shoulder dystocia but enough that he did give her a little bit of a pull at the end which was not part of my birth plan, but I don’t know that he read it even though I did. 

I had it all printed out and everything, but I don’t know if he saw that. But he did pull on her and we had to have a little bit of bodywork done on her afterward because it did injure a muscle in between her neck and her shoulder. But she is okay now. It’s all good. But yeah. We pushed for 20 minutes. He assisted in pulling her out, and she was born and was healthy, and it was great. And for the first time ever, other than with my stillbirth, we didn’t have to have her whisked away. Actually, even with our stillbirth, they did still have to take her, and clean up, and do some things before we got to spend time with her directly.

This time, she was born and they brought her right up to me, and my husband cut the cord, and I bawled like a baby. You’ll see that in the picture that I picked for my story. We both did. It was just awesome. Yeah. It was just a really beautiful experience and the recovery for both of us has been so much better. She, like I said, had a little bit of bodywork that needed to be done, but that was still pretty minor considering all things, and yeah. She’s been thriving. Our breastfeeding experience post-birth has been actually amazing. I’ve always had issues with that afterward.

I talked to the lactation specialist we hired. Gosh, I can’t even remember the abbreviation. It’s like, IBCLC or something like that, right?

Julie: Yeah.

April: Anyway, we hired one of those to come and actually help us in that first week after birth and I was talking about everything with her and the other births. I’ve always had problems with drying up at five weeks, my milk, for just no reason. I did this crazy feeding and pumping, and that’s all I would do, a routine and everything but no matter what, I would always dry up around five weeks. I am happy to say that I am at five weeks now and we have tons-- well, not tons of milk. We are still working on getting more, but we have way more milk than I have ever had before.

I was just talking to her about the difference and if Cesareans affect that. She had worked in a hospital for a long, long time before she actually decided to go solo and do her consulting individually, and she said that there was totally a correlation with that in her opinion from what she had seen professionally and really had helped. So I just thought that was a really cool added benefit that I was like, “No. I don’t know if that was part of why we needed to do a VBAC this time too.” I’m not sure what all the reasons are. I feel like they just keep coming, but I feel like that’s what this baby needed. It was a really beautiful experience for us and recovery afterward has been night-and-day different I will say.

Some people will say a Cesarean recovery isn’t that bad. I will not say that it is the worst thing ever but I will beg to differ. Between a VBAC recovery, and a Cesarean, or vaginal birth, I would definitely go with a VBAC for moms. I did get one stitch this time. I am proud of my one stitch.

Meagan: That’s really good.

April: That’s nothing. I know. Yeah. I know that there are people that have it way, way worse. So anyway. Every birth is beautiful. I totally think it’s just really amazing and always very grateful for everybody’s happy outcome. But I do think it’s important to go with what you feel is right for you and your baby, and sometimes that’s going to look different for each baby. Each pregnancy is not the same. But for us, I’m really glad that we finally did say “yes” to the things like hiring a doula, finding out what a doula was, finding The VBAC Link.

Julie: Yay.

April: Hiring Julie and really felt a strong-- even picking Julie out actually was an awesome spiritual thing for us too because here was this stranger that I didn’t even know was in my state let alone not too far for me doing this VBAC Link that I just randomly found when I was looking up VBAC stuff. I had even emailed her which I didn’t even realize that I forgot I had done. 

When I did go to hire her, she was like, “Oh yeah. You emailed me months ago.” I was like, “I did?” I just knew that Julie was the doula that I needed because not every doula is the same. I think they probably are all amazing but you have got to find the people that are the right fit for you for your team and for your journey, and we did. We are just really grateful that it all worked out.

Julie: Yeah. It was a beautiful birth. Beautiful story.

Meagan: So, so happy for you.

Julie: So many spiritual and amazing experiences happened with the providers and just everything. It was just a really sacred thing and it was an honor to be a part of it. I appreciate you letting me into that space and I appreciate you sharing your story with all of us today.

April: Yeah. Thanks for having me on.

Closing

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