The VBAC Link

Dads are constantly flooded with messages to be helpful and supportive to their birthing partner, but where are those specific tips on how to do just that?

Cue David Arrell. David has developed a passion for everything surrounding birth with his main focus centered around helping dads learn the things he wished he knew when he became a dad for the first time. According to his own words, “I am just a dude who has been through this journey.”

With his very specific dad tips as well as big ideas, David’s advice will take your birth support partner from feeling clueless, guilty, and overwhelmed to feeling hopeful, empowered, and inspired. When both partners learn to be a strong team during pregnancy, their bond during labor and throughout parenting will thrive even more.

And the tip that gets 100% of his recommendation? “Dude, Hire a Doula.”

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

David's website: Welcome to Fatherhood

Welcome to Fatherhood: The Modern Man's Guide to Pregnancy, Childbirth, and Fatherhood

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy, happy Wednesday everybody. This is Meagan and Julie. You are listening to The VBAC Link. You are going to be excited just like we are for this episode today, so make sure you are somewhere where you can hear all the words, and honestly, you probably want your birth partners to list them as well. 

We have David Arrell. He is an author, entrepreneur, consultant, and men’s coach currently in Colorado. We have actually had quite a few special guests in Colorado which is really fun. He is passionate about coaching men on how to more fully embrace and embody help, masculinity, and especially through the powerful modalities of partnership. His most recent work-- now I can’t speak.

Julie: Sorry.

Meagan: You’re fine. --in this area is a book and we have the book. We are so excited. It’s called Welcome to Fatherhood and I really like it because it is like “WTF”.

Julie: WTF.

Meagan: Through the whole thing, it’s the modern man’s guide to pregnancy, childbirth, and fatherhood better known as WTF. So this is really a big deal because in so many ways, and I even talk about this with my doula clients. There are so many things in pregnancy that are so woman-focused or birther-focused, right? We kind of forget sometimes about dad and his role. 

That’s, as the doula, so important for me not to forget that and make sure that dad doesn’t feel that because I remember the day in my second labor. I remember my husband had to sleep on the couch in the corner and everyone coming in not addressing him, not talking to him, not saying anything that’s happening, not asking him has an opinion on anything, and it only revolves around me, and so I just think this is so awesome. A lot of dads enter childbirth clueless not because they don’t want to know, but because people don’t include them, right?

And then fatherhood. I also know that as a mom and my husband, we’ve had times where I’m like, “No. I am doing it right and he is doing it wrong.” I remember someone saying, “You are both doing it right. You are doing it your way,” and I loved that. So I am really excited to talk to him today and get to know more about his book, and the role, and the fourth trimester coming back home, and how to give these tips to these dads because they need them.

Julie: I was just going to jump in and say, “I love this,” because David, our guest today, literally wrote the book for dads about the fourth trimester, what to do when you get home with baby, well, I mean, it is for pregnancy, and childbirth, and fourth trimester, right? So that’s the first three months after the baby is born. It’s from a dad‘s perspective. He gets it. He has been there. That’s what me and Meagan really like about it because, at The VBAC Link, we are doulas, but we have also had VBACs. We have been there. We get you. 

I feel like he is right on our level, but talking to the dads because yes, like Meagan said, dads, a lot of time, get forgotten. I wish my husband would’ve had something like this back when we started into parenting because he was completely oblivious about pregnancy, and birth, and everything. I dragged him to a HypnoBirthing class but that’s about it, and now he knows way more about birth than he ever thought he would ever have dreamed to know about, but this is going to be really helpful. So we are excited. We have asked our social media followers questions. We have some questions for him. 

Review of the Week

Julie: But anyway, before I keep talking, holy cow. Let me read a Review of the Week.

This is from Natalie in San Diego. It is on Apple Podcasts and she says, “I am SO thankful I found this podcast. I’ve always wanted a vaginal birth and felt like I could never get one after my C-section in 2018. I started listening to this podcast when I got pregnant (currently 28 weeks) and then I asked my provider if I was a good candidate and she said, ‘No.’”

Dang it. Oh my gosh. Sorry. That kind of caught me off guard. That was probably a little bit of an inappropriate laugh. That’s what I do when I get caught off guard. I laugh inappropriately. All right, let’s see.

“She said, ‘No,’ so I resigned to the fact that I would need a RCS with this pregnancy and stopped listening for about a month but the nagging feeling that I could ask more questions and advocate for myself more just never went away. I started listening again and realized that so many women switch providers late in the game so why couldn’t I? After requesting my post-op report and asking my OB more questions, I realized that I am a good candidate and that she just wasn’t supportive, so at 26 weeks I switched to an amazingly supportive provider here in San Diego, hired a doula, and signed up for HypnoBirthing!” 

Hey, speaking of HypnoBirthing…

“I’m doing everything I can to educate myself and am so hopeful for a VBAC this April or early May.”

Oh my gosh, maybe like right now.

“I wouldn’t have had the courage to do any of this without the stories from the women on this podcast so thank you!!!”

Do you like my commentary? I don’t think I can read a review without jumping in and putting my own thoughts into the review. Anyway, talk about being long-winded. Okay so, thank you for the review. We love reviews. You already know that if you haven’t had a chance yet, please go leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google or Facebook. Wherever you leave us a review, it will help us reach other people, so if you enjoy the podcast and think everybody should have a listen, definitely go ahead and give us a review in whichever is in the easiest place for you to do so.

Q&A with David Arrell

Meagan: Okay, David. We are excited to dive in with you. We have questions and all these things that we want to ask you, but I would love to invite you to share a little bit more about your book because I know I just went right through it. But tell us more. What inspired you to do this?

David: Sure. Thanks for having me on, ladies. I really appreciate it. I think part of my inspiration was the gap that I experienced as a guy who has really committed to trying to be that “helpful and supportive partner” and I thought I was doing all the things. As our first pregnancy, and then ultimately the labor and delivery, and then that first experience for us of that fourth trimester, I have looked back and I realized there are so many opportunities where I wish I had done some things a little bit differently, but I realized I didn’t get the information, or the education or the encouragement that I felt would have helped me be that much more helpful and supportive for my wife during her pregnancy, and childbirth, and coming back home. 

So I looked around and even the birth classes I took, the amazing doula we worked with, which I will circle back to later, and some of the books I read, there just wasn’t that sort of succinct, clear sort of discussion of some of the things that are really important for us guys to really get a better sense of. And also, just some specific things like, “Hey, guys. Really think about doing this,” or “If you did this one thing a little bit differently, you might have more success.” So that was my main inspiration. It was to pave the path a little easier for the guys coming after me who are going to be going through their own sort of pregnancy adventure.

Meagan: Love it. Love it. You know, I have a client, a husband, who started a podcast. Kind of the same thing. He was just like, “After the first birth experience, I just realized there was so much more that dads needed to know,” so I love what you guys are doing. This is going to be awesome. 

So are you ready for the list of questions? Julie, I don’t know if you want to go back and forth, but we have a list of questions that some of our followers have asked. 

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: if you don’t mind, I would love to jump into those.

Julie: Let’s do it.

David: Sure. Let’s jump right in.

Meagan: Perfect. Okay, so number one is: 

Best advice for husbands to support wife in labor? 

I know you talk about pregnancy a lot in your book too. You talk about all of it, all the trimesters, but we are going to jump right into labor. Best advice for husbands to support their wives in labor?

David: Sure. The way I describe that journey though, going into labor, is if the pregnancy is a rollercoaster going up the hill, slowly working its way to the top, once you realize, “Oh wow. We are really in labor,” that’s when that rollercoaster crests the hill and goes zooming down the other side. It’s a very different sort of immediacy for all parties concerned.

The main thing I tell the guys out there is Big Idea #10 in the book. The book has Big Ideas and Dad Tips. But Big Idea #10 is that your new mantra is to be attentive, be calm, and be competent. At the end of the day, regardless of all the other things going on, if you as the dad, the partner, perhaps the most important support partner in the room here, if you can maintain that mantra and really be attentive to mama and all of the things that are happening for her whether it’s holding a hand, or rubbing a brow, or adjusting a position for more comfort, or be calm.

There are definitely times I know in my wife’s childbirth and some of the guys I talk to also where things get a little active, but still, for us guys, we have to be calm. We have to be that rock in the storm of the emotions and feelings for our partners to connect to. 

And then being competent. This comes down to feeling like you have done the work ahead of time with the education and the practice where you feel pretty good about what your role is, what it’s not, and how to really show up as that competent person throughout this process. So that’s the mantra. Be attentive, be calm, and be competent.

Meagan: Yes. I love that. You know, something that happened in one of my labors-- I have had three babies and my third baby, my labor was 40--

Julie: Are you going to tell the story about the pillow? You should tell the pillow story.

Meagan: Oh no, but I should. 42-hour long labor

David: Wow.

Meagan: My husband had a not-so-supportive moment where I was doing my thing in my zone. Sometimes we moan. That’s what we do. Our uterus is the strongest muscle in our body and it’s contracting around a baby really hard. It doesn’t feel awesome so you have to work through it, right? He totally shoved a pillow in my face and told me to muffle myself because he and the other kids were trying to sleep.

Julie: I think that Rick needs a copy of your book.

Meagan: I know. But there was a moment in my labor and I had been laboring for a really, really really, long time, and what had happened that I just still to this day will remember the feeling that came over me. All he did was touch my back and lean into me, kind of just grazed around my head and my shoulders, and it was a complete moment of, “I am not alone in this,” even though I knew I wasn’t alone. I had a great team. Just that touch was exactly what I needed and like you said, it could be a touch of a brow, or an adjustment, or just being there. It was just amazing. So I would not disagree at all with that.

David: I’m glad he bounced back. That’s good. That’s good.

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Between that and then when he looked at me and was like, “Remember, this is what you wanted.” I was like, “This is not what you say to me right now.”

David: Well, that’s the trick. So many of us guys get these-- the general vibe is we are told to be helpful and supportive.

Meagan: But you don’t know how.

David: But we are not given explicit instruction beyond that and so we guess, and then we guess wrong, and we get frustrated, and so that’s exactly it. It’s the different challenges that we go through and the learning curves that can be really steep sometimes.

Meagan: Absolutely.

Julie: Yeah. I get that. Do you know what’s so funny? While you were just talking, we are actually going to make the link to where you can go and buy David’s book Welcome to Fatherhood and the link, I just had to say this because it is so funny. The link is going to be thevbaclink.com/wtf. So we will make it super easy for you to go and find his book.

Meagan: I love it.

David: Exactly. That sentiment is very popular.

Julie: I mean, yes. You started at Tip #10, right? So I am just like, “Yeah. It’s really good stuff.” I haven’t read all of it, but I have skimmed through it and I have had my husband skim as well and there is some really good stuff here. So we are going to put it in the show notes. This is normally what we would do at the end of the episode, but I just had to say it. I am making the link right now. So anyway. Great stuff.

I remember my husband felt helpless too. For my Cesarean birth, he still says it was the scariest moment in his life. Watching me on the operating room table, not knowing if I was okay, not knowing if baby was okay and I’m sure he would have really appreciated this type of advice to help him because men instinctively have this nature to support their partners and fix the problem, right? They want to be strong and they want to be able to comfort them, and childbirth is such a foreign concept that it can really-- what are the words I’m looking for? It can really just, it’s not familiar to you. So you don’t really know what to do and it can cause birth partners sometimes to feel a little hung up, and uncertain, and unsure, so just giving them these tools, like you talked about, and telling them what to do-- yeah. You are supposed to be supportive of your wife during labor, but this is how you do that. I think it’s so valuable. It’s so valuable. So I really appreciate that.

Oh, next question. I guess that’s on me.

David: Well, let me jump in with one quick thing here.

Meagan: Sure.

David: One of the challenges as guys I have seen happen in my experience and some of my buddies is that we get into the labor and delivery and like you mentioned, it’s overwhelming, it’s a novel experience, but then also, that sort of fix-it vibe just doesn’t work. There’s nothing for us to fix. Our partners are maybe going through some pretty intense experiences and sensations, and we are just sort of supposed to be-- you know, we feel very helpless sometimes. I remember at one point, my wife was squeezing my head really hard and she was really having a challenging series of contractions there and I just felt so helpless. 

And so that’s where I think this mantra comes in, but I definitely wanted to touch base on one other thing. I think it’s one of the Dad Tips that I am very strong on. Most of them are recommendations, but this one, I am very strong on and that’s Dad Tip #7: “Dude, Hire a Doula.”

Julie: Yes.

David: That would get 100% of my recommendation energy. Some of them are 60, 70, does this work for you? But dude, hire a doula. That doula is going to be your wingman too. Not just your partner’s, but your wingman to really help you. They can give you some tips. They can give you some direction. They can help normalize some of the beeping and some of the other things that are going on. 

Again, I can circle back to this a little bit later, but that’s definitely what will help you focus on your job which is to be that supportive partner. Most dads out there are not birth professionals, so you can just focus on your partner and your mantra, and let your doula really help adjust you as necessary. So I didn’t want to skip over that Dad Tip #7: “Dude. Hire a Doula.” Please.

Julie: I love that you said that. It reminds me of an article I read a long time ago. I think it was called, Just Hire the Damn Doula. It was a blog.

David: Perfect.

Julie: it was a dad‘s perspective and he was just like, “This is why you need a doula. Do you know what to do when she is at 4 centimeters and she’s only been there for three hours? No, you don’t. Do you know how much blood is normal? No, you don’t. Do you know what positions to do to help or what labor positions to help encourage baby to descend? No, you don’t know that.” He was just like, “You just need a doula.” 

Anyway, that was a really broad explanation of the article, but I love that. As a doula myself, I make my clients’ partners be present at their prenatal visits because it’s really important to me to not only get to know the dynamic of their relationship so I can better strengthen that during the labor process, but also so I can get to know the dad and how to support him because doulas are also for dads. I know a lot of times they think, “Oh yeah, doulas are just for the mom, but we are here just as much for you guys to help you know how to best support your partner. 

The best feeling in the whole world is right after the baby is born and then the dad comes over and gives me a great big hug and I am totally not a hugger. Like as I doula, I can put my hug face on and I can hug if people want touch and stuff, but by nature, I am not a hugger. But when a dad comes and grabs me off my feet-- I just remember this one particular moment. He spins me around and he is like, “Thank you so much.” This was after a VBAC birth and I was just like, “Wow. This is really cool.” It is just really extra special when the dads say those kinds of things.

Every dad is a little bit different, but I really appreciate that you say that. I think it’s important because a lot of times, dads think that doulas will replace them, but really, a good doula will really work on enhancing your relationship in knowing how to better support your wife. Okay, ready for the next question?

David: Sure.

Julie: All right. So I don’t know. We kind of have already talked about this. I think there might be some overlap a little bit in some of these things, but you have got lots of great tips and advice in your book, so I am sure that we are not even going to scratch the surface into that, but the question is: 

What do you tell men to do to support women during pregnancy?

David: The subtitle of the book is “Better connected, better prepared.” And so I think that focus really helps shape some of the suggestions that follow in that envelope and that’s what is so important. I think some of the dads out there-- I know for me, that connecting bit was tricky because my experience of pregnancy is sort of like it’s happening over there whereas, for my wife and every other person who has been pregnant, it’s literally the biggest deal ever. 

It’s like, “No. This is now. I am already a mom. I am monitoring my vitamins, and sushi, and which cheese I should eat,” and all of these different things. That sense of motherhood is very real but whereas for us dads, a lot of times, we don’t think we are dads until the baby gets here.

So one of the things I think that’s important to remember is that both of those truths are true for each person, but for us dads, there is plenty of opportunity for us to reach over and really try to better connect with mama and her experiences, and just knowing how real and important that is, is a great first step to putting that as a top-tier priority rather than just sort of like, “Oh yeah. We are pregnant and the baby will be here in a couple of months,” kind of thing.

So there are so many things you can do as the dad to really get in there. I mentioned hiring a doula is a great thing, a birth class where are you are excited and you want to take on that. You’re just as excited about the birth class as mama is. That’s a great way to really foster that connection where you are going through that together and learning about it together. 

Another thing I like are some of these pregnancy tracking apps where-- I know my wife and I really enjoyed each week, as the pregnancy progressed, sitting down and watching the five or ten-minute little video about what’s happening this week. Some of them are pretty funny. They compare the size of a growing baby to French pastries or random, exotic animals, and so we would laugh about how baby is the size of a hedgehog this week or the size of a croissant, a big one.

So those things where you’re really connecting with mama and really doing your part to get really on the inside of her journey as well, all of those things are great ideas because at the end of the day, the goal is to really have that relationship be really strong and vibrant as you are going through the delivery, and then you come home for that fourth trimester because now you’re parents together. Now is not the time to figure out how to be a team. Being a team starts during that pregnancy.

Meagan: Yes, yes. Love that. I love that. If you can walk in as a team, into parenthood, it’s just going to set yourself up so much better.

Julie: And can I just say, dad? Even if you don’t love the whole “baby is the size of a kumquat” thing, just pretend you do.

David: Exactly.

Julie: Just pretend.

David: Exactly.

Julie: Just fake it until you make it.

Meagan: Or if the class that you are taking is HypnoBabies or HypnoBirthing and you’re like, “Oh, this is really weird,” try your hardest to get in there. I know sometimes it is far-fetched or far out there and it’s like, “This is so strange,” but this is something that she may have picked that resonated with her to help her cope through this labor journey, and crazy enough, it will connect. Like when you said, “Take childbirth education classes,” it will connect you two together so much more and help you in all stages.

Julie: I love it.

David: Exactly. It’s funny, I’ve heard some dad say, “Well, I am not having a baby, you are.” Like, discussing this with their partners about these different things and you know, not that they are adamant about it, but that’s their reality and I’m like, “Yeah dads. I get it.” Having a baby is a huge deal. I mean, it’s easy for some guys to think, “Well, that’s how all of us got here. There may be one or two test-tube babies running around, but we all got here this way,” and it’s like, well, this is the first-time experience or second-time experience for your partner. 

This is a very huge deal. Don’t look at it in the abstract. Look at it in the concrete. Your partner is excited and enthusiastic, as are you. It’s meaningful. It’s a little bit scary. There’s a lot of uncertainty. Really get in there to be that supportive partner by connecting with her and her journey rather than sort feeling like you need to stay on your side of the fence in your journey. So that connection piece is so important.

Julie: Great life advice too.

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, seriously. You know what? Are you going to write the next one on marriage? Because all of these tips-- this is also how to have a really great date. 

Julie: We’re taking notes. I’ll give it to my husband. I’ll be like, “Read this. Just kidding.”

David: That all becomes so much more pressing once baby gets here. I am a terrible illustrator but if I had any skill, I would have drawn a little series of two stick figures: mama, dada, and then a little small tiny baby stick figure. This is what you think it’s going to be, and then the second one would have been the same size mama, dada, and then this giant Michelin Manbaby illustration like, this is the impact of a new baby on your lives. It is not this third thing that joins you.

Meagan: It’s not tiny.

David: No. It’s just the middle and the center of everything.

Meagan: Yes.

David: So now is the time to forge those teammate bonds.

Meagan: Love that.

Julie: Yes, absolutely.

Meagan: Love that. Okay, so this is a hard one because sometimes I know it can be daunting when you are in the birth room and in labor and stuff, but it says: 

Do you encourage men to stand up for their wives’ wishes during labor and birth? 

And I’m going to add on to that one and say: 

If you do, what do you feel like is the best way for a dad to say, “Okay. I know she didn’t want this. I am going to try to make sure that we go about this a different way”?

David: Well, my first answer is yes, absolutely. Dad is the main support person looking out for the bigger picture. I know there were times in my wife’s-- especially with our first baby where she couldn’t hear anybody else in the room. She couldn’t see anybody else, hear anybody else. It was sort of that fugue state that some women go through and she needed me to basically repeat everything that the doula was asking or our OB was asking.

So yes, you need to be fully connected there. This circles back to-- I mentioned a doula already, but having that really trusted birth team where both mama and dada can really feel like their birth team is on the same page with you. They are looking out for your best interest and baby’s best interest obviously as well. But that birth team coming in, as I mentioned before, most dads aren’t going to be birth professionals, but that’s where that birth team comes in.

So to whatever degree you can start with that team, really be all on the same page. We have gone over the birth preferences. We understand where we want to go with this whether it’s what types of pain management we want to use, with breathing, or massage, or etc. But there are times where things might get a little tricky.

Like for example, during our first birth, we had a very low intervention birth, no pain medications, and at one point, my wife was struggling a little bit. They wanted to put an oxygen mask on her face and she did not want that. She was trying to swat it away and I felt like I needed to go with her wishes rather than whatever the nurse was trying to do. And so I gently removed the oxygen mask from her face. I looked at both our doula as well as the OB and I am like, “if she doesn’t absolutely need this right now, then it’s only going to cause her more duress and anxiety to be fighting off this mask which is not what we are looking for.” And they both agreed. But that was on me to not just sort of automatically go with whatever is happening, but to remind them of what our plan was.

So again, absolutely stand up for those wishes during the labor and birth. The more you are on the same page with both your wife or your partner and that birth team ahead of time, the easier it is for you to do that because you are not worrying about somebody coming in and trying to change the birth plan, or there is a shift change and a new OB comes in and they have a different idea or they haven’t read your birth preferences, so the more you’re clear about that as a team, I think the easier it is for us guys to be less focused on being an intervention blocker and more focused on being that supportive teammate with our mantra of being attentive, and calm, and competent, focusing on our birthing partner and being supportive for her.

Meagan: Yes. I love that. So tell me, I am trying to think how to ask this. 

What tips would you give for those dads who are very medical-minded? and trust-- I don’t want this to sound negative. My husband is very much like, “What the doctor says, we do because the doctor is the professional. He went to school. He knows it.” But then there are also times where I am like, “But that’s really not what I want and I have researched differently.”

He told me that he felt like I put him in a really hard place because he was like, “I feel like I was against you and the doctor because I believed what the doctor was saying but you wanted something more. I wanted to make you happy, but I wanted to do what he said because I was worried.” Do you know what I mean? What tip, if you have any, specifically for that type of situation where we have got a dad who doesn’t know how to navigate that feeling that they have?

David: I think you hit a really, that’s a really perfect space because that’s where it can be so tricky for us guys. Especially if we have had some experiences in the past where doctors have been helpful or if we have had experiences in the past where they have been unhelpful. We are bringing our own stuff into this equation also. And I think, I know doulas are explicitly focused on the non-medical aspects of all of that birth, but having a doula with you where you can at least have a consultant. It’s okay in about 98% of the circumstances to say, “You know what? I need to think about this for a minute.”

Julie: Yes.

David: I mean, if it’s not an emergency, emergency, then you can always ask for a few minutes. You can try to speak with your partner depending on her level of awareness, and consciousness, and interest in the topic, and your doula as well, or even phone a friend. But you usually have time.

Sometimes I find that those circumstances relax a little bit when you create some time around them to really sit with it and check-in with your partner. “I know our birth preferences. We wanted to do A. They are really recommending B. What should we, can we wait a few minutes? Do we need to decide now?” Because things can change pretty quickly in a birth and sometimes waiting, things sort of tend to clarify both whether it’s the circumstances shift, or the answer that you are working with shifts, or your agreement around the answer shifts.

So I would say, look for more time to let things settle or simmer a little bit more before you make a decision. If you don’t need to make it right that second, then look for some time. That will usually help the consensus clarify where you’re not feeling like you’re being pushed into making a decision because nobody likes that sense of being rushed into a decision especially if it doesn’t need to be made right that second.

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: Love it. Love it, love it, love it. Time. Okay.

Julie: Absolutely. Great advice.

Meagan: All right, Julie. You are on the next question.

Julie: All right. These last two made me chuckle. Okay.

How do you convince your husband to read this book and be a better support?

Meagan: Yeah.

David: You know, that’s a great question. I joke sometimes that-- this material, I started offering in a workshop format, an in-person workshop.

Julie: That’s cool.

David: The challenge was that the guys who most needed the workshop were the ones that were actually the most oblivious to the fact that they needed the workshop.

Julie: Yeah.

David: So well, I think there are a couple things I will mention. One, this book is not like many of the other books out there. Some of the books out there are 500 pages. They are very encyclopedic which is great for the guys that really want to get into those details of the changes mama is going through, the developmental trajectory of baby, but for guys who aren’t interested in that, it’s just all starts to sound like Charlie Brown’s teacher. It’s like, “Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah.” And they’re like, “God, what am I supposed to do? Where is the part where it says, ‘do this?’”

Julie: Yeah.

David: So that’s the book I wrote. These are some specific things you can do at various times in the pregnancy, and labor, and even the fourth trimester. All the dad tips. There are 28 of them in there, but each of them are very specific for that time period. Dad Tip #, randomly, #2 is knowing the baby’s age in weeks. 

The baby is not four months. You probably wouldn’t know it at five weeks, but they are 12 weeks, or 15 weeks, or 17 weeks. That is relevant early on, but that falls away once you are in labor and delivery. It doesn’t matter how many weeks you are at this point. So those are very specific things. That’s what the book is built on. It is built on these very specific dad tips as well as these big ideas that helps shape your understanding.

I joked with you earlier that one of the early subtitles I was playing around was, “All the things I wish I did better the first time.”

Julie: Yeah. I know. We could all write a book like that.

David: Right. Right. But that’s kind of the goal is like, I want the guys out there to have a chance to read this and their list, which, there will be a list of things they wished they did better the first time, or even the second time, or third time. I want that list to be shorter than mine.

So that’s where it is coming from. It’s not another, “You are doing it wrong” kind of book and it’s not super encyclopedic. It’s short. It’s sweet. It’s pretty much to the point. It’s written by, I am just a dude who has been through this journey. I talk a little bit. It’s straight talk. I have done a great job in not cursing on the podcast, but there are some curse words mixed in there, a little salt and pepper, because when us guys get joking around, sometimes our language flows a little bit more freely.

That’s how the book is written. It’s not preachy. It’s not, again, like I mentioned, not a “You are doing it wrong” book. It’s like, “Hey man. Yeah. This is challenging. It’s tough and sometimes it’s really hard.” One of the early big ideas is what I call the “Dude Zone to Dad Zone and Avoiding the Dud Zones”.

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say I saw that in there. “Avoiding the Dud Zones”. Yes.

David: Yeah. The two dud zones I talk about-- I talk about the journey you are on. I tell the guys, “You don’t know it, but right now you’re on this journey from the dude zone to the dad zone. The dude zone is when you’re hanging out. You have your relationship. You have your job and all these other hobbies and cool things that are priorities for you, and now that you are going to be, you are a dad, but you’re going to be a dad when the baby gets here, as these expectant fathers are thinking, but you need to move into that dad zone,” which is shifting some things around, looking at things a little bit differently, re-prioritizing a couple things and during that pregnancy journey, things are really tricky for us guys because we know we are supposed to be helpful and supportive. We don’t know what that means and we bump into doing it wrong a lot.

We are guessing. We are sort of like, “Well, I don’t know.” We are trying to figure it out, and so the two dud zones I talk about are Wimpy Town on the left and Jerkville on the right. Wimpy Town are the guys that just gave up on trying to figure it out and they basically say something to the effect of, “Just tell me what to do and I will do that.” They are defeated. They have given up on trying to figure out because they’re just tired. They are just frustrated with guessing wrong but that’s not really a good place to be. No expectant mama wants to have to tell her partner what to do, and when to do it, and all of that kind of stuff. That’s not a good teammate or good teamwork there.

And on the other side is Jerkville. Those are the guys that occasionally will be like, “You know what? I don’t know what to do. I’m guessing. You do it. I saw a zebra pop out a baby last night on a nature show and the zebra was running around five minutes later. I don’t quite understand what’s going on here.” They get a little testy and defiant. That journey to the dad zone, you can bump into those dud zones a lot.

There were many times I felt like I had one foot in Wimpy Town and one foot in Jerkville and I was like, “I don’t know what to do. I really want to be great and to be an awesome partner, but last night this worked and then tonight, the same thing is the worst idea ever. I am trying to remain connected but it is just really tricky.” So that’s where I am coming from. A lot of what I am trying to offer here is specific tips to help these guys make that journey from the dude zone to the dad zone with fewer slips into those dud zones. So that’s another reason I would say, give it a shot out there.

Julie: Love it.

Meagan: That’s awesome.

Julie: That’s great. Yeah. I am going to add in a little question before Meagan asks the last one and we wrap it up. 

What about the dads who are less assertive? 

I know for some dads, it’s harder for them to stand up for their partner in the birth room. It’s harder for them to tell the doctor that they want to do something different even if they agree that they should do something different. Everybody’s personalities are different, but what advice would you give for those dads who are less confrontational but who want to be a solid, strong support for their wife?

David: That’s a really good question.

Meagan: Yeah. Would time still be the suggestion or do you feel like there is a different approach for those guys?

David: I think time is always a great first place to start because then you have a chance to marinate a little bit and think about what the question is that is being asked of you or the suggestion. You have a chance to speak it over, talk it over a little bit with you. Ideally again, this gets back to that doula and having a great doula as your wingman. This is a great resource for us guys to discuss some of these things and also to check in with our partner and see how they’re feeling. Sometimes, something that is very clear in the birth plan or the birth preferences, as things progress, your partner may change her mind also and you don’t want to be adamantly holding the ground against something that your partner has now shifted her opinion on too.

So that’s where having those conversations-- but it’s tricky. I am not an OB. I am not a midwife. I am not an auto mechanic. I am not going to argue against these people too strongly when they are specifically trained to do these things and I am not. So it’s really hard because most of us guys who aren’t birth professionals don’t really feel like we have too strong of a leg to stand on when push comes to shove.

Julie: Yeah.

David: We want our partners to be safe. We want our babies to be safe and that’s what the experts are there for ideally. That’s what their focus is too. So I still think time is your best first resource to ask for, and then to just confer with your partner and confer with other people on your birth team. “What would you do if this was your partner? What would you do if this was your baby?” could be some good questions to ask back or “What are some other options?” But at the end of the day, sometimes you have to make a decision and you just have to make the best one you can at the time with what information you have.

Julie: Yeah. Totally. Yeah, I guess that was kind of a bad question. It had already been answered, but I think maybe you gave a different perspective from it and we learn by repetition, right? All right, Meagan, you are up. Last question.

Meagan: Yeah. So one of the questions is: 

Are men actually reading your book? 

And I can almost guarantee that the answer is, “Yes”. But yeah, do you feel like you have had a good turnout from your book?

David: Yeah. So far, it’s been pretty exciting. The book just came out in the fall of last year and one of the funny things about this is, assuming that they purchased a book somewhat early in the pregnancy, they are just now getting into the actual experience of having labor and delivery, and that fourth trimester. The sales have really been taking off recently which is great, but I have been starting to get some feedback from some of the guys out there and from some of the mamas too. I’ve gotten a couple thank you emails recently.

Meagan: Awesome.

David: I have gotten a couple more that said, “I probably should have taken you more seriously earlier in the journey.”

Julie: Aw snap.

Meagan: That’s awesome feedback though. You are like, “Yeah, okay. I am writing something really good here.” Yeah.

Julie: You’re like, “Heck yeah. I’m so legit.”

David: I got one. It was like, “It’s 3:00 a.m. I am working at one of your Dad Tips. My baby was crying. They are finally asleep in my arm and I am typing this on my phone with one hand, but thank you so much for this tip. This was great, some of the suggestions. I have looked back at the book also in some of the earlier chapters and I was thinking, ‘Yep. Should have done that. Yep. That would have been better.’”

So ultimately, at the end of the day, it’s the guys out there who have had a chance to go through the pregnancy journey and now their buddies are going through their own pregnancy journey and their friends are asking them, “Hey, what kind of tips or advice do you have for me?” A couple of guys have said, “My first step is going to be to read this book and I am going to give them my copy.” And I am like, “That’s great. Pass it on.” Let the information get out there and make these birth experiences for all parties-- mama, dad, and baby too. Anything any of us can do to make that a little bit smoother and easier is great.

So yes. Thankfully, they are reading it out there. Some of the mamas too. I got one email from a mama recently who, she had glanced through the book in preparation whether she should recommend it to her husband or not and she said she learned a lot about how he was looking at the pregnancy that she was able to be more, I don’t wanna say compassionate, but--

Meagan: Understanding.

David: Understanding, yeah. Like, “This is hard for him too. He is not only over there or not connecting with me, but he has got his own journey and a lot of this is new.” You can’t hold somebody accountable for something they haven’t been trained to do or informed about. So she was able to be a lot more understanding and workable in connecting with him and his journey too which I thought was awesome. I thought, “That was unexpected but great.” Teamwork makes the dream work.

Meagan: Seriously though. That’s what I’m saying though. So many people are focused on what mom is doing. Mom is carrying baby. Mom is growing. Mom is doing this. Her boobs are getting big. You know, all these things, but it’s not like, you know what? Dad is struggling seeing her in pain. Dad is struggling seeing her not sleep very well. Dad is struggling with the fact that soon there’s going to be a child to take care of. You know? There is so much. And so I love that, that she was like, “I was able to understand his point of view too.” That is really cool. That is really, really cool.

David: Yeah, that was neat. I really liked that one because, at the end of the day, the parenting partnership is what’s really going to be coming into play here, and whatever we can do to strengthen those bonds coming from both the mom’s side and the dad‘s side, that just makes that family unit so much stronger to work with those fourth trimester challenges, of which there can be many.

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: Yes.

David: So build those bonds now.

Meagan: Well, and I just want to touch back on what you said, there is so much in your book that talks about things before baby even comes. And so Father’s Day is in June? When does this air?

Julie: This is airing on June 2. When is Father’s Day?

David: Awesome.

Meagan: Okay, see? Father’s Day is not June 2. It is after. This is a great Father’s Day present. So I am just going to quickly go over a couple of the chapter titles. “The Dad Instinct” which, in my opinion, is awesome that you are calling it that. It seriously made me so happy when I saw that because we always talk about mama’s instinct, mom instinct knows best. 

Guess what? Dad’s instinct knows best too. So “Dad’s Instinct”, “We Are Pregnant: Through the First Trimester”, “The Second Trimester: Setting the Table”, “Third Trimester: Giddyup Cowboy”. Oh yeah. That’s when all of the complaining happens. “Labor and Delivery: The Time is Now”. “Welcome to Fatherhood: The Fourth Trimester”.

And then he’s got tips and gift tracker spreadsheets, oh my gosh, go-bag essentials, birth plan topics, big ideas. I mean, there is so much in this amazing book. So ladies, grab this book for your husband. Read it together. Read it together.

Julie: thevbaclink.com/wtf

Meagan: WTF, yes.

Julie: Alive and active. I just tested it on my browser. It is on Amazon, both paperback and audio versions.

Meagan: Which is awesome. Are you the person reading it?

David: The Kindle is available, but the audio version is not yet available.

Julie: Oh sorry. I saw Kindle. Yeah.

David: That’s okay.

Julie: No, sorry.

David: Yeah, Kindle is there. I did do the audio and I am waiting for that to get a little bit more polished up with some of my coughing and whatnot taken out, but that will be available soon too. So we are almost there.

Julie: We can relate.

Meagan: Awesome.

Julie: Yay.

Meagan: Okay ladies, Father’s Day is coming up. Definitely go grab this.

Julie: Perfect. All right. Was there anything else you wanted to add before we cut you loose?

David: No, this was great. I really enjoyed coming on here chatting with you ladies. Everything around birth is something I am super passionate about and like I said, anything out there that is helping people have a little bit easier, smoother journey is fantastic. So thanks again for having me on. I really appreciate it.

Meagan: Thank you for joining us.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. It was fun having you on. All right, ladies, we are going to drop the link to his book in our bio, so go ahead and click on it there.

Meagan: Do you have social media, David?

David: I have a Facebook page that is pretty not active. I have been getting a lot of requests to get on Instagram and do some fun live videos, but I am a little bit behind the curve on that. So hopefully I can get that soon. But the website has tons of great resources on there. It’s just www.welcometofatherhood.com.

Julie: Perfect.

David: Like you mentioned, the birth plan, the gift tracker spreadsheet, and all kinds of cool stuff. So you can always reach me through there too and send me emails. I love emails. I love questions and comments so please send them on in.

Meagan: Awesome.

Julie: Perfect.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“There are a million paths to motherhood and there is no right way or wrong way. It is just your way.”

Jesse Truelove with @movewithtruelove joins us on the podcast today and drops some serious truth bombs about birth, fitness, social media, and motherhood. We couldn’t be happier to have her with us and for you to hear the important messages she has to share! 

Our mission at The VBAC Link is to empower ALL women in their birthing choices, whatever they may be. We applaud all women for choosing the birth path that is best for THEM. There is no right or wrong way to give birth! 

Additional links

Instagram Live with Jesse and TVL

Birth Words: Language For a Better Birth Podcast

VBAC vs Repeat C-Section Blog

Move with Truelove: Jesse’s website

AB Rehab course

Move Your Bump

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan. Julie is on with us and we have a special guest. Her name is Jesse Truelove. We are excited to talk about her episode today because this is something that is actually a first for The VBAC Link. We were just chatting a little bit before. We were like, “Why haven’t we had this happen?” because this is totally what we talk about, what we teach about in our courses, and this episode is where she had an emergency C-section, ended up recovering from a really difficult delivery and had very little support. And really, for her next child, when all was said and done, she decided to have a repeat C-section.

And I love this. I love this because as The VBAC Link, as Meagan and Julie-- yes, I am talking for you, Julie. We are all about everybody making the best choice for them. That may not be a VBAC. Some people may not choose to have a VBAC. One of my best friends has had three C-sections. The first one was unexpected, two were scheduled. I love and support her in that even though that is not what I chose to do. I chose to VBAC. I support her in that and I am so grateful that she had that opportunity.

So we are really excited to dive into this episode today and hear her story. She has done so much good in the world. After her births, she decided to dedicate her focus to helping moms recover fully from their pregnancy and delivery. We are going to talk all about that in the end because she has got some pretty cool stuff that she is in charge of.

Review of the Week

Meagan: But of course, we have a Review of the Week before we dive right into it.

Julie: All right, yes. The Review of the Week. This is kind of a long one, but I really feel like it goes in line with this episode. I’m going to tell you about how I shamelessly stalked Jesse after this. But this review was actually an email. We got an email from Christina T. We really love getting emails from people who we have helped along the way, and so if you want to reach out to us through Messenger, or email, or Instagram Messages, or leave a review on Apple Podcasts, or Google, or Facebook, or wherever you want. We reply to all of the email messages and DM’s that we do get. We love talking to people and hearing their stories. 

This is a long one, so bear with me, but I really like it. She says: 

“I wanted to tell you about my repeat C-section. On the podcast, I have heard that term so many times. ‘Hold space.’ For me, that’s what you ladies have been preparing me for these nine months without me knowing it. For holding space. 

“For nine months, I prepped for the VBAC of my dreams. I listened to every podcast, was a member of the Facebook group, did ‘all of the things to prepare for the birth I thought I so desperately needed. I was ready to have an unmedicated birth and to roar my baby into this world. At 32 weeks, we found out baby was breech. I had been going to the chiropractor twice a week and felt confident he would flip. He did not flip. I then started to kick on my Spinning Babies®, got acupuncture, did everything online I could come up with and he still would not flip. 

“Around this time was the week you guys had your repeat C-section podcast and for me, it was a sign to start mentally preparing for what might not be. I spent the next few weeks switching my mindset from feeling sorry for myself and switching it to feeling strong. It was during those weeks I thought to myself, ‘What am I missing? All of this education and research can’t have been for nothing.’ 

“That’s when it clicked for me. I had been preparing to hold space for what won’t be and I have the tools to do that. We scheduled my C-section and when March 8th came, I was as ready as I was going to be. The anesthesiologist came to the room and I knew it was going to be a wonderful experience. Prior to this baby, we had suffered two losses in a row. We needed to have a D&C for the second loss and all day, different staff members asked me to state in my own words what procedure I was having. Each time I would break into tears as it was a very difficult thing.

“My doctor came into pre-op and instead of asking the same questions, he simply said, ‘I am sorry you are here for this procedure. Are you doing okay?’ The same kind, genuine man was going to be my anesthesiologist now. When I first walked into the OR, my stomach dropped. It was bright, cold, and sterile just like last time. My doctor must have sensed my heightened awareness and said, ‘Your baby is coming.’ And with that, I was ready. 

“We were able to drop the drapes, watch our son come into the world, and have skin-to-skin right away. It was night-and-day from our first experience. It was joyful and blissful, and I left a feeling like a mom and not a patient. I left feeling confident and like a bad-ass. I left holding space for my experience and for our story, and I will be forever grateful for that gift from you ladies. 

“Birth doesn’t always go as planned. Sometimes it is better.”

And now, that gives me chills at the end. “Birth doesn’t always go as planned. Sometimes it’s better.”

Meagan: I love that. Sometimes it’s better.

Julie: I’m going to make that into an image.

Meagan: Yes. Let’s make that an image and quote her because that same thing. I just got the chills.

Julie: I know. I have goosebumps.

Meagan: I was like, “Yes.” Sometimes it doesn’t go as planned, but it’s better. Yeah. I feel like I can connect to that even with my second C-section. I didn’t want that second C-section, but guess what? It was such an amazing experience and it healed my first birth experience.

Julie: Yeah. I love that.

Meagan: I love it. Awesome.

Julie: All right. Well, let me tell a little bit of a funny story and then I promise I won’t take up much more time. Jesse, we did an Instagram Live with her on her Instagram page.

Jesse: It’s still there.

Julie: Yeah, @movewithtruelove, right? That’s what it’s called? It was really fun. This was a long time ago. We followed her and I just love her content. She has great content. Super fun. Her reels are amazing. I just love seeing her bright, beautiful face as I scroll through our feed and everything. I just have really enjoyed following along with her Instagram. I knew that she had a Cesarean and that she was pregnant again. 

I don’t even know this whole story, but at some point along the way, Jesse decided that she was going to have a repeat Cesarean instead of attempting a VBAC. I was like, “Oh my gosh. Okay, this is really cool. I need to follow along and see how this all ends up,” because we haven’t ever had a story on our podcast about somebody who had decided to have a repeat Cesarean.

Meagan: Even though there are tons of people out there.

Julie: Even though there are lots of people that do all the time.

Meagan: Tons, yeah.

Julie: All of our C-section stories--

Meagan: In fact, a large chunk of people, the majority do.

Julie: Yes. Yes, and we have had three VBAC stories where people have tried for a TOLAC and then ended in a repeat Cesarean, but we have never had somebody that has decided during their pregnancy that a Cesarean was the right way for them to go. And so I was so excited. I am like, “Oh my gosh. I need to follow up with this. I need to make sure she’s on my radar,” and then she announced her cute little birth story was on a little reel on her Instagram page. You need to go find it. It is the cutest thing ever. 

I knew that she had her baby and she had a C-section, and then I was like, “Oh my gosh. I want her to share her story on the podcast, but I don’t know if she will be open to it,” because I know, from what I picked up from the reels, it wasn’t an easy decision to make. I didn’t want to overstep my boundaries. She is super cool and way bigger than us on Instagram. I feel so small and tiny, but one day, I am like, “Okay. I’m just going to reach out, and I’m just going to say how much I love her, and how excited I am that she had a really good birth experience and that I would love to share her story on the podcast if she would like to.” And she said, “Yes.”

Jesse: Oh my gosh. I only got good vibes from our last conversation and I literally wanted you guys to do my VBAC. That’s what I wanted.

Julie: Yeah.

Jesse: It was a big change for me. It was definitely a mind shift, but it wasn’t as big of a deal as I realized it was once I put it out there on social media.

Julie: Well, and I’m sure you got a lot of support. I don’t know. Maybe there were some people, but I mean social media. As we are getting bigger, there are people that argue with us and disagree with us all the time. But I just love that you were confident in your decision. You just radiated that security and that confidence. I think that that’s what we all want going to birth is just being confident and feeling supported. That’s the vibe I got from you when you were talking about it and sharing your birth story and things like that.

Julie: Without taking up too much more time, first of all, thank you so much. I’m so excited to have you share your story and to listen to you share about that decision that you made. Then we are going to talk a little bit afterwards about when it might be a good idea to choose a repeat C-section, and then Jesse is going to share some of her really awesome resources.

Meagan: Awesome stuff. Yeah.

Jesse’s story

Julie: Yes. She has lots of really cool stuff. So hang in there with us because this is a really really good story and you want to hear what she has to say at the end. All right, Jesse, you’ve got it.

Jesse: Okay, thanks so much, guys, for having me. I am actually really, really honored to be on your podcast. I had such a good experience chatting with you guys. It felt so, so natural the first time we did it, so it was a very easy “yes” for me.

So I guess I will start out with my first C-section which really has paved the way for everything that I am doing now. Really, everything about motherhood has shaped everything that I do now. With my first pregnancy, I was working out really hard. I have been a personal trainer since 2014 specializing in women’s fitness. I have taught in multiple states boot camp, and circuit classes, and personal training for abs, and all kinds of stuff, but it wasn’t until my own delivery really, because I had a fairly easy pregnancy in respects to working out. 

I was very active, and so I thought in my head, I had this very clear picture of what my birth story was going to look like. It just seemed really, really easy to picture what it was going to be. I thought if anybody could, this is a really weird thought to have, but if anybody could have a natural birth and if anybody could do it successfully-- it didn’t even cross my mind that a C-section could be in my future. Meanwhile, I am the oldest of six kids and my mom has had four kids via C-section. So pretty interesting that I never thought it was going to cross my path.

I went Into my delivery, like I said, with a very clear picture of what my birth story was going to look like and it quite literally went the exact opposite. I was in labor for 26 hours. I was bleeding. I got a uterine infection. I had a fever. My placenta was failing. Heart rate was dropping for the baby. They broke my water. I got Pitocin. It was literally my worst nightmare and I was so, so exhausted by the time that my doctor-- well, I couldn’t have my midwife anymore who had been with me the entire time. 

By the end of the 26 hours, I had the OB come in. He was checking me for dilation and I just wasn’t dilating. They gave me Pitocin and they broke my water. I think I got to maybe an 8 or a 9 and it just wasn’t happening. And then contractions slowed down and I really was so exhausted. He came in. He was checking me for dilation and he asked me to push. I was just so out of it. I didn’t even know how to push. I feel like if it’s such a medical experience, you go in and you are hooked up to these monitors, it just doesn’t feel natural. It feels really really medical.

Julie: Yeah.

Jesse: Especially when doctors are coming in and nurses are coming in checking your blood pressure, and you’ve got those monitors, and beeping, and honking, and all of the stuff going on. You don’t even know what’s actually happening with your own body and then I had an epidural by that point as well, and so you know how an epidural feels. You could kind of feel the contractions coming and going but it’s not even close. 

So your doctor asks you to push and you have no idea what he’s talking about. Push what? Most women don’t even know what the pelvic floor is and I was one of those women. Before my pregnancy, I was lifting and pushing some heavy weight. I was deadlifting 255. I am a five-foot person. That is a lot of weight for a tiny person and I didn’t have the mindset of function.

I had one picture of what fit looked like, one picture of what strength looked like, and it was not anything of what strength really is. Motherhood taught me that. He asked me to push and I didn’t know what he was talking about. He goes, “Oh. You can’t do this. You are going to need a C-section.”

Julie: What?

Jesse: “It’s going to be C-sections from now on.”

Meagan: Whoa.

Jesse: I laid there completely drugged out of my mind. I look at my husband and tears are just welling up in my face. I could cry just thinking about it. My husband is-- you know, we think that we are the strongest people we know. We love each other so much. He wanted to take that whole experience on himself and it was killing him that he couldn’t. He put on a brave face. It is hard for husbands too. They go through this with you and it is so much. He looked at me and he was like, “It’s going to be okay. We just have to do what we have to do.” 

In my head, I am already thinking of the future. I’m like, “What do you mean? All my next pregnancies are going to be a C-section?” I feel like it was the worst possible time to lay that on me and it’s just the standard of care. It’s just not there for moms. So the OR doctor left. He was assembling his team and the anesthesiologist had to be called in. We are in the middle of nowhere out here in the Oklahoma Panhandle so they have to call the team in. They’re not just there waiting for you if something goes wrong. So we are waiting for the team. I am laying there and all I could think was, “I have totally and completely failed before I even got to start. My body has totally failed me and I don’t even know. I am supposed to be able to do this. This is what I was made to do and he just told me I can’t now and I’m never going to be able to.”

That stuck with me forever. And then, we are getting ready for the C-section. I have never had any kind of surgery ever. Never, ever, ever, and so I am terrified. I was already terrified to give birth and now I am terrified to go be cut open. And so they had me hunched over-- oh no, this was after I had my epidural. So they changed it over to where they just have to keep pumping the epidural in, so it wasn’t a spinal tap. They put me onto the new table. They strapped me down to the table, which was another thing I didn’t expect to happen either. It is all such a mental hurdle to get over. You’re like, “Wait. They don’t tell you any of this going in.”

Julie: Yeah.

Jesse: But that just all adds to the mental trauma of, “You have no control in this. We are strapping you down. You are numb. You can’t have your baby the way you wanted to. You are getting wheeled out of the room you just got comfortable in. Your husband has to wait out here.” It was hard. It was so hard.

And so, anyways. We get rolled into the OR room. Just like your mama said previously in that story you were sharing, it was cold. It was sterile. A bunch of people that you don’t know are in there. Your husband is not in there. You get placed onto the table. You get strapped down. You get the blue sheet at your neck and it’s an emergency situation because the heart rate is dropping. I had a fever of 103 because they had checked me so many times.

Meagan: Wow. Wow.

Jesse: I had gotten an infection literally while I was there within 24 hours in my uterus and that’s why I was on antibiotics for probably-- I was in the hospital for five days. I was on antibiotics the whole time which, you know. Antibiotics, just the additional medicine. I’m not one to even pop an Advil for a headache, so it was just a lot.

So they are doing the surgery. It was all very fast. It was a ton of pressure. A ton of pressure, relief when they took the baby out. They sewed me up pretty quick. Again, I had no idea what was happening afterwards, so they took Radley out and I could hear her screaming. In that moment, it is all totally worth it. It is all worth it because even at the end of your emergency, traumatic, C-section, you still get a baby. The baby that you have been dreaming about for nine months, the baby I’ve been dreaming about-- for me, it was since I was a teenager. Me and my husband have been together for 12 years, since high school, and we had been talking about our kids forever. So in that moment, I am like, “Oh. I could do it again. I could do it 1000 times the same exact way. I would go through everything the same because at the end of your really shitty experience if it is shitty-- which mine was-- it’s still worth it.

So they brought the baby over to Shane. Shane just put her on my face because that’s the only skin I had accessible. They didn’t tell me about skin-to-skin. They didn’t drop the curtain. I didn’t get to see anything and I felt like I missed out. I felt like I got gypped in my birthing experience, which I did. I think that’s okay for moms to feel. I feel like there’s so much judgment around feeling what you feel about your birth. I feel like a lot of moms, and myself included-- I didn’t talk about my first C-section for a long time and I didn’t feel comfortable in sharing the fact that I wasn’t just grateful for my baby being alive, but I was really pissed. I was mad about my C-section. I was mad about how I was spoken to. I was mad that I felt like my body had failed me.

Nobody made that feel valid for me. Nobody asked how I was really doing. Because after pregnancy, I feel like a lot of moms can attest to this, it stops being about you and it goes all to the baby. You get one check-up postpartum and then that’s it. At my six-week check-up, they didn’t even check me internally. I got the magic check at six weeks like, “You are good to go to back to whatever you were doing before you got pregnant,” and so I went back to doing those things. I realized quickly that my idea of strength and my idea of being fit was so terribly wrong.

I had never felt like more of a stranger in my own body. I got home with this new baby that was beautiful and perfect and I had a brutal recovery from being in labor for so long, and the infection, and all of that, and then recovering from a C-section and major surgery. They don’t really explain that to you in the respects that you should be getting rehab postpartum to be rebuilding connections with those muscles, and movement patterns, and muscle recruitment patterns, and all of those things. And so I went into my recovery pretty blind. I realized quickly that moms don’t get much support at all through anything postpartum.

And then I got really educated and I built courses for moms to rehab their own bodies postpartum, everything that they need. I realized that moms don’t need a six-pack, even though if you want one, it’s totally possible. What we need to be able to do is sneeze without peeing our pants and nobody could have told me how to do that. There wasn’t that information really out there. It was really just Kegels and if Kegels don’t work, get a surgery. Another surgery. There’s just a lot of room for improvement out there for the standard of care for moms and that’s what I get to do now. And so I love that.

And then in my interim between my next pregnancy, I had a lot of focus in my mind and talking with my family, and talking to you guys that I wanted to have a VBAC, that I was confident that was just a one-off thing, and that I was going to be able to have a VBAC, and it was going to be successful, and that’s what I was going to try for, and all of those things. And then once I actually got pregnant, we did experience one loss after my first baby and we had a miscarriage. I got pregnant pretty quickly afterwards. I was discussing with my husband what we are going to do because you just don’t know what you’re going to do until you are there.

So once I was pregnant and thinking about where we were going to deliver, who was going to do the surgery because the OB that did my C-section the first time didn’t live here anymore, which probably was better because this doctor that I got this time is just amazing. And then after I met him, I felt a lot more comfortable with choosing another C-section. After going over my options with him-- which I think is super important. If you want to choose a C-section just because you want to choose one, you have those reasons in your mind about why that is a better choice for you and that should be okay. Those should be valid reasons. 

But I did ask him some things trying to get his medical opinion on what was the best choice for me even though in my head after I was sitting in the hospital, I was like, “I really don’t want to be stuck in the same position that I was last time. I don’t want to be in labor for 26 hours to get stuck again and to have to go through another labor, the C-section, and a surgery, and then have to go home and take care of two babies.” And that, in my head, was really important to me to still be able to do everything I needed to do and not have such a tough recovery because I remember my recovery being so, so hard from basically going through two deliveries. The 26 hours of labor and feeling all of that, and then going through my emergency C-section.

So when I was talking to him, he basically gave me some options. He did mention uterine rupture. I know the odds are very low, but like I said, we are in the middle of nowhere. He personally had seen some uterine ruptures happen and you just don’t know that they are happening until baby’s heart rate is dropping and for us, that risk of not having a team on staff because the hospital is so small, that risk of having to call a team just wasn’t worth it to me. I had to weigh the options and weigh the risks between a repeat Cesarean, which there are risks and the risks of trying to labor and then ending up in the same position that I was in last time.

And so we ended up choosing a repeat Cesarean and I felt really comfortable with that knowing that I was going to be scheduled, knowing that my mom was going to be in town, and being able to watch my other daughter. That was really important to me. My daughter’s experience through us being gone because we have never left her with anybody before. I just had a ton of stress surrounding that. Not to say that the second C-section didn’t bring me a lot of stress too. I don’t know why I had this irrational fear, and moms are really good at this, that I was going to die. I had this irrational fear that I was going to go into surgery and not come out for my toddler.

You don’t have that fear going into the first one of not getting back to somebody, so that was really hard for me. I was shaking like a leaf laying on the table going in for our scheduled C-section for River, my second daughter. It’s funny because just like the mom that you mentioned earlier in the beginning of this show, you can get really lucky with the staff that you have for your experience and I totally lucked out. My anesthesiologist felt like family. 

It’s funny to say because you meet them, and they come in and tell you the risks and stuff for the spinal block and all that, and they talk to you, and you are like, “Gosh, I am so scared but for some reason, you just are calming those nerves.” I think it is so important to have that type of support team. You can just tell this guy had daughters. I went into the OR room. They were in there. I’m leaning over my nurse’s shoulder and she is just holding me. They are putting in the spinal tap and they laid me down. Again, you’re in there without your husband. The lights are all on, cold, sterile, they are strapping you down, and I just had this fear that I was going to die.

They are working and they get her out. I hear her screaming and again, it was the most beautiful noise and sound I had ever heard. They bring her over and in that moment, it was just peace. It was so much peace and again, it was just all worth it. They clean her up and they sewed me up. My doctor was really, really careful with my C-section scar which was really important to me too for adhesions and making sure that everything was sewed up very carefully. They took dad and baby out. I went to recovery and it was probably 30 minutes. 

I feel like that’s something they don’t tell moms either that you are going to be in recovery by yourself which is always a little bit sad. It was for me. I had both situations where I was in the recovery room by myself, but the feelings that I had surrounding my second C-section were not failure, were not that my body had failed. I had so much power in the choice that I had to be able to know my outcome and it did heal me from my first experience as well because I mourned that delivery. I mourned that experience that I felt like I missed out on. Even though I didn’t get to have a vaginal delivery, I didn’t get to have that experience, I still got to experience something beautiful and everybody came out okay.

Birth words matter

That’s not always the most important thing to bring up to a mom too. She is proud of her baby. She is proud that her baby is happy and healthy, but it is also really, really important to let her feel everything else. I feel like that’s what this world needs more of. Instead of-- well, I didn’t realize how much judgment there was around choosing a repeat C-section until I put it out there. And I was, oh my gosh. I got shamed so hard by a doula. She told me that I was saying I was too good for labor.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Jesse: That labor was beneath me.

Meagan: Whoa.

Jesse: I thought that this was such a dangerous position for that lady to be in as a women’s birth support person and her personal feelings around C-sections to a person that she does not know. She is a mother herself and to shame a mom-- I literally was trying to rationalize in my head during my own time of choosing a C-section that this was really the best thing for me and for my family. We don’t have family here in town that can come and take care of our house and our baby, so we needed our family to fly in. That was a really big thing for us. We needed to make sure our toddler was taken care of. That alone could have been my only reason to choose a C-section and it should be okay because I do have other kids to take care of.

Regardless, I have my own mental health to take care of and my first experience was crippling. There’s nothing like looking at your body after you have this beautiful baby in your arms and thinking, “Gosh. I feel like a failure. I feel like my body failed. I feel like I can’t do the one thing a woman is supposed to be able to do. I don’t recognize the body that I am in.” I am supposed to be this strong fitness person. I put all this pressure on myself to bounce back. I didn’t know how to do that. 

There’s so much pressure. It is so much pressure from not only ourselves because moms do that. Women do that. But especially with social media, it can be a blessing, but it can definitely be a curse with how easy it is to access people and access very vulnerable parts of people’s lives. This whole C-section conversation that I have become so passionate about talking about really stemmed from that doula’s comment to me because I didn’t realize that women were getting so much shame from this. It wasn’t until I put my own experience out there that women were like, “You know, yes. That is me. I got shamed by my own mom. I got shamed by my best friend.” People telling me that I didn’t really birth my baby. That stings as a mom. 

Our words quite literally carry weight to the people that we say them to whether it’s a stranger, or a friend, or somebody on social media, or somebody in your family, sister-in-law, mother-in-law, all the things. There just has to be more support all around because at the end of the day, we are just moms trying to get home with our healthy baby.

Julie: Yes.

Jesse: And there’s no shame in that no matter how you do it.

Meagan: Right. We are honestly-- yeah. A healthy baby and we are wanting to stay healthy, but we are also wanting a good experience for us.

Jesse: Yeah.

Meagan: When I was choosing to do VBAC, I also got the backlash of, “Just schedule a C-section. Why would you do that? Why would you chance it?” I mean, it goes both ways.

Jesse: You just can’t win.

Meagan: Literally, it doesn’t have to be about birth. Vaccines, masks, no masks for COVID--

Jesse: Totally.

Meagan: No matter what it is, it is this battle. I wish so badly to this day that people could just take a step back, take a deep breath and say, “Okay. I know where I stand. I support where you stand whether it is the same or not.”

Jesse: Yeah, totally.

Meagan: Because if we could just be validated in our own choice and not be questioned and put down for making the choice that we feel is best, this world would be so much happier and less battley and snarky, right? I chose to VBAC. You chose not to VBAC. Do I think you are any less of a person? Do I think you birthed your baby any less? Hell no. That’s the answer.

Julie: Meagan just said “hell” on the podcast. It’s the first time.

Jesse: I was going to say something worse, but I didn’t know if that was acceptable.

Meagan: I know.

Jesse: Yeah, I know. It can get a little raw in motherhood, okay guys? It’s pretty crazy. There are a million paths to motherhood and there is no right way or wrong way. It is just your way.

Meagan: Exactly.

Julie: I love that. There are a million paths to motherhood. Hold on. I need to make some notes for some social media posts later. Hold on.

Jesse: Write it down, Julie. It’s pretty crazy. We are the largest population. There are so much more that connects us than what divides us. We let those, they are really just subtle and big differences, but we let them divide us. If moms would just come together, like you said, it would just be so much nicer because there is already so much pressure from other moms. We say that we want to support. We said we want to be validated, but it is usually moms that are so vicious to other moms and it’s mind-blowing to me.

Meagan: Which breaks my heart.

Jesse: Yeah. It really is heartbreaking because we have all got the same goal and that is to raise these little people with love. Everybody has a different way to either get to motherhood, because that is a journey all in itself and one to be very cognizant of, again, with the comments. When you are going to have another baby, you really don’t know the lengths that either a couple is going to be having to have a second baby or even to have their first baby.

Meagan: Exactly, yeah.

Jesse: Even a birth experience can really change the way if you want to have another baby or not, and recovery. If you don’t feel supported for the first one, it’s going to be really hard to feel supported in the second one unless something changes. I think that’s what we in this field are trying to do. We are trying to change that. We are trying to change and raise the standard of care for moms because we are the population that raises the next generation, that keeps the world going. If you help moms, you help the future and that’s what we are trying to do. That’s what every mom deserves.

Meagan: Wow. Yeah. I’m going to roll back even to what your provider said. He was like, “Oh, you’re going to have to have a C-section because you’re not doing this and you’re always going to have to have a C-section.” My doctor said, “You were going to for sure rupture. I’m glad you didn’t do it.” Right? Those things stick with us and they impact us, and they do impact the decisions that we make and the ways that we view things. 

This is totally not a sponsor of ours, but Sarah Pixton has a podcast called Birth Words. It is called Birth Words: Language For a Better Birth and just like you have been talking about, these words stick with us. Even though you, as a person, may be sharing something with someone based off of how you feel or whatever, remember that that might stick with them and impact them substantially in either a positive or a negative way. And so when we as people are speaking, we need to be aware of what we are saying, how we are saying it, who we are saying it to and be respectful of everybody’s decisions, and choices, and views, and like you said, what they have been through. There are a lot of people with infertility stuff who don’t even talk about it because they don’t feel like they can.

Jesse: Yeah. Everything pretty much about motherhood, I feel like, if you don’t feel like you’re going to be supported, you’re not going to share, and then that creates a situation where you are not going to reach out to the right people and get the support that you need--

Meagan: Right.

Jesse: -- which creates more unsupported moms, which creates more chances of not getting the experience you wanted because you didn’t have the knowledge, and the information, and the support that you needed to possibly have the situation that you wanted to happen actually happen for you. I feel like like you said with the words that he said to me, that pushed me into this prideful position of, “Okay. I am for sure having a VBAC next time.” You know? Like, “I’m going to show you I can have a VBAC.” And then once I got there, I was like, “I don’t know.”

Meagan: That’s actually not what I want.

Jesse: That’s not actually-- I don’t really want to try this again because of this, this, and this. Part of that was the mental space it put me in, the mental position that I put my husband in. It’s just, and now we have another baby to take care of, so that was something else to take into consideration. So yeah. Your words carry weight, so be mindful of them even if you are a stranger.

Meagan: Yeah. And remember there doesn’t always have to be a “because”.

Jesse: Yeah.

Julie: Yes.

Meagan: You don’t always have to say, “Well, because this.“

Julie: And you don’t have to justify it.

Meagan: “Well, because I want it because this or I don’t want to because of this.” There doesn’t have to be a “because”. Because is because. Do you know what I mean?

Jesse: Right.

Meagan: That is the reason and it’s okay and you’re confident in that. So yeah. I feel like a lot of people feel like they have to defend their reasons and it’s like, no. You shouldn’t have to defend your reason. If you’re making a choice that is best for you, that’s all that matters. That’s all that matters.

Jesse: Yeah. If you make a mom question her decisions, question her parenthood, question her ability or reasons as a mom, that’s not support. That’s not advice. It’s just mean. It’s just mean and it’s unwanted, unsolicited, not advice, but just unsolicited speaking.

Meagan: I love it.

Jesse: Yeah. Moms need support.

Maternal mental health

Julie: Yeah. It’s important. Well and not only that, but I want to take it off on a little tangent. We have a serious maternal mental health crisis in our country, especially for women one to two years postpartum. When we create this environment where women are scared to share their feelings because they feel judged and they see these comments flying around on social media or wherever about which way is the right way to give birth or all those different things, it makes them more afraid to show their feelings. It also makes them feel like their feelings are wrong. When you are in a mental state where you feel guilty about your thoughts and you feel like you can’t share them without being judged, then they are going to sit inside your head and your mind, and fester, and grow.

It can lead to really long-term complications. I think we all know that mental health affects our physical health as well, and so we are having moms that are literally getting sick because they are not supported in their decisions. I am sure you have seen this too, Jesse. You have a big social media presence. Our social media presence is getting bigger all the time. I find the bigger that we get the more we get these people that seem like they just want to argue with whatever we say, or they take one little thing and pick it apart, right? 

I know I have texted Meagan a couple of times because I have anxiety over here. I’m working on it, but sometimes some things really upset me. I will text Meagan and I will be like, “What do you think about this?” Meagan calms me down and lets me know that there are 500 positive comments and one negative one.

Jesse: Right.

Julie: But I really still even get worked up about those types of things. It’s something that I have to actively work on and I’m still learning coping strategies and stuff for, but my anxiety did not start until after I had my VBAC baby which is really interesting because I had what I would describe as a perfect, textbook VBAC. It was a perfect birth and everything was as I wanted it to be, and I had really severe postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. It was my worst mental health after any of my pregnancies. I had this beautiful birth, but I had all of these expectations I set myself up as a mother based on what other people thought and what I perceived to be the right way to be a mom. 

And because I could not fit this mold that I had set for myself and because I felt like I didn’t have a group of people I could talk to because all of my people were in this little mold, or so I thought, right? I kept it inside and it really did a lot of damage to my mental health. I know I’m not the only one that feels like that. That’s why we share stories from all different types of people in all different types of births, in all different types of decisions, from all over the world even, because we want people to know that they are not alone. It’s always okay to share your feelings. It is always okay to get help and it’s never okay to judge somebody else based on their decision. It’s never okay.

Jesse: Yeah. I can totally relate to the comment stuff. I honestly can’t even go to my comments. I’ve got a really strong group of moms here and, like you said, it’s usually not even from people that are following you. They’re not even coming to your page because they like your content.

Julie: Oh yeah. They see one post.

Jesse: Yeah. They’re not coming because they like you. They’re coming because you’re triggering them. Because the people that I do see, I end up blocking them because I don’t want anything negative that they say to affect a mom on my page.

Julie: We do that too.

Jesse: Or to read the comments or see it, so I will block them. But they are not even following me and I find it so intriguing, like, “Why are you here?”

Julie: Yes.

Jesse: Why are you here? What are you looking to get? It’s usually because just they don’t feel supported in their choices in their life, so they are attacking you for your choices or whatever. But yeah. The comment section is a dangerous place to be especially if the post has been up for a while. So every once in a while, I will go back and then I’m like, “Why did I do that?” Because you know? It’s just toxic. 

But I think if I had one piece of advice for a new mom, it would be just to not read every book,  not ask everybody what they did because moms have an intuition and they just need to feed into that a little bit more. Just trust your gut. If you have got a stomachache about something, it’s your second brain trying to be like, “Your first brain is not listening to you. I am going to make you throw up over it and I’m telling you, something is wrong here. Something is not right.” If it doesn’t sit well with you, the mom, you get to be the deciding factor and if somebody is giving you advice and it doesn’t feel quite right, it’s not good advice for you.

Meagan: For you. Yes, exactly.

Jesse: For you, yeah. And that’s exactly it. Just because you’re getting advice from your mom, just because you’re getting advice from your best friend who also has a kid, you’re probably also going to get advice from your friend that doesn’t have a kid that’s imagining how they would be as a parent-- which that always is great-- just because you’re getting all that advice, it doesn’t mean it is the right advice for you, and your situation, and your kids, and you as a mom. 

So my advice is to take what you need and ditch what you don’t. If you like something that somebody is doing if you like something that your mom told you, or your friend, or your grandma, or whoever, take it. And if the other parts of it don’t align with your vision of how you see yourself being a mom, or how you plan on birthing kids or all of the things, just ditch that. It is going to feel so much better if you have that confidence to just put your foot down and be like, “No. I am the mom. This is how it’s going to be.” 

I feel like we need to support moms in those decisions also. Because for some reason, we feel like, “I don’t want to be rude, so I’m just going to let this happen.” But it’s either your feelings or their feelings and I don’t think the mom should have to sacrifice her feelings around her kids, around her birth experience, around everything else because, at the end of the day, it’s your experience. It’s your journey. It looks a little bit different for everybody else.

Julie: And if you see some content on social media that you don’t agree with, just scroll along. It’s okay.

Jesse: You do not have to comment. You don’t. I promise. I promise you don’t have to leave your opinion.

Julie: Well, we hate to cut it off short. I feel like this is something we could talk about forever. But I did want to say that sometimes it is a hard thing to decide whether to try for a vaginal birth after a Cesarean or to schedule a repeat Cesarean. Neither choice is a bad choice, but we did write a blog about how to decide if an elective C-section is best for you and your baby. Jesse, you said, “Don’t read all the books,” but you can read this one blog. 

We are going to drop a link for that blog in our bio or you can just go to our website, to thevbaclink.com, and just search for “elective C-section” and it will be a link there. It will list medical reasons for repeat C-sections and also reasons why people might choose to have an elective Cesarean. There is no right answer for you and like Jesse said, there are a million ways to motherhood.

Meagan: There’s no wrong answer.

Move with Truelove

Julie: There’s no wrong answer. But before we go, we do want Jesse to share a little bit more about some of the stuff that she does and how you can find and follow her, because we know you love her by now just as much as we do.

Jesse: Aw, thanks, guys.

Meagan: Well, and I think that this information that you are going to share is so powerful because it really isn’t paid attention to enough. So tell us all about what you have got your toes and hands dipped into.

Jesse: Okay, perfect. Yeah, so I have got my own page. It’s Move with Truelove. You guys got plugged into that at the beginning of this, but I am also very deeply connected to Nancy Anderson and if you are in the prenatal/postpartum field or realm or if you are a mom, you need to know what we are doing over here. 

So I am the Program Director and Head Coach for the Move Your Bump app and that is our prenatal and postnatal fitness and nutrition app. We’ve got over 400 on-demand coached follow-along workouts of every style, every fitness level. We have got multiple, multiple expert coaches that always have your bump in mind. We focus on minimizing excessive diastasis which is the ab separation, which became this really hot topic on social media, but there are about a thousand ways you can get it. 

We really focus on the prevention of that during pregnancy to help you have a more comfortable pregnancy, but more importantly, we are training you for labor because it is the hardest workout of your life. Whether you are a vaginal delivery mom or a C-section mom, it is going to be a fight and you want to make sure that you are training properly.

We also prepare you for a faster recovery and we do that through the Move Your Bump app through workouts, through breathwork routines, through focusing on posture, troubleshooting issues that we see most commonly in prenatal mamas. We also have challenges throughout our app with private Facebook group communities, with thousands of other moms throughout the world that are connected through their sharing bump pics and checking in for progress, and then also the ability to win prizes there. So it is super fun.

Meagan: And there’s something starting on the third, right? You guys are doing a challenge starting on the third. Is that right?

Jesse: Yes. Yeah. We have a bump challenge.

Julie: The third of what?

Meagan: It’s the third of May.

Jesse: Of May.

Julie: Well, this episode isn’t going to air until June.

Meagan: But do you do those often?

Jesse: We do. We do them every single month, the first Monday of every month. We do multiple challenges. We have a Before Your Bump challenge, which is our trying-to-conceive challenge and we have got all kinds of information on stress management, fertility, hormones, nutrition to optimize your fertility, as well as fitness. We want to make sure that we are staying nice and strong and focusing on the things that are most important to not only support a pregnancy but also recover from your delivery.

We also do through the Birth Recovery Center, which is our umbrella company that is going to be having multiple courses including things like sleep support, lactation consultants, mental health, all kinds of stuff that moms are going to need through their journey. So the hero product there is the AB Rehab course. That’s our 12-week postpartum recovery course. It helps you to recover and heal fully from your delivery whether you are a C-section mom or a vaginal mom, whether you delivered 10 weeks, 10 months, or 10 years ago. This program is basically for everybody with a pelvic floor, so that’s everybody.

We focus on the foundational work, on the reasons why diastasis happens in the first place. Pregnancy is definitely something to recover from as well as your delivery because so much is changing in such a short amount of time. Birth is basically a lot of trauma to the body which takes a lot of rehab and a lot of specific coaching, specific protocols to make sure that we are addressing everything that happens during pregnancy and during delivery. So we will focus on postural imbalances, posture habits that happen during pregnancy, and then even pre-pregnancy, probably a lot of these muscle imbalances you have had before you were even pregnant. 

Pregnancy just has a really good job of showing us where our weaknesses are because we are trying to support a big bump growing out in front of us and our balance changes. Pressure changes, so imbalance, and muscle weaknesses, and compensations tend to really present themselves in the forefront during pregnancy and then stick around postpartum if we are not actively working to correct them. 

So through the 12-week course, we focus on posture. We focus on breathing patterns which are huge. We focus on the pelvic floor, not only function but the ability to connect with the pelvic floor and lower abs, which we really don’t have a lot of access to during pregnancy if you are not actively working to keep that connection. That’s why a lot of moms are left with a lower belly pooch or feeling like you can never really turn on your lower abs. That’s muscle dysfunction.

We have thousands of moms. We probably have about 5-8000 moms join our course every single month, every single challenge. We coach all of them through video communication, through our course, through video assessments. We have a whole entire team of course specialists that help customize the 12-week course to specific needs because like we said, there are a million roads to motherhood, there are a million roads to recovery too and that can’t be done with a one-size-fits-all course, which is why we are so passionate about the ability to customize this course with troubleshooting videos if you have a hypertonic or hypotonic pelvic floor or whether you have developed prolapse. 

There’s a lot of things that are happening postpartum and we address a lot of them. We also have an in-house DPT on our staff who can work to coach you through some more difficult things that need a higher level of expertise. So we really are just helping to raise the standard of care for moms postpartum. Moms deserve all of the support and it really does take a village to do that, and so that is why we have got our hands in all the cookie jars with lactation, and sleep, and birth path, and mental health, and of course, our 12-week AB Rehab, as well as nutrition. We have a little bit of everything and we are working to be the top providers for that since we are already doing that with AB Rehab.

Meagan: Love it.

Jesse: Yeah. We are really proud of it.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. So much goodness in there. So awesome. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing your story, and your wisdom, and, obviously, that awesome course, courses. So we really appreciate you. We love your face and we just can’t wait to continue our relationship.

Jesse: Right back at ya. Thank you so much for having me.

Julie: Absolutely. Thank you.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We can’t wait for you to hear Nicole’s incredible VBAC story! She is a successful, driven mama of two and owner of The Polished Playhouse. You will feel her resiliency over and over during this episode. Nicole shares with us her firsthand experiences with racial bias during her first birth and along her journey to VBAC. You will also be inspired by how Nicole overcame challenge after challenge giving birth at the height of the COVID-19 pandemic. 

We talk about the reality of racial bias in the birth world, why you shouldn’t trust the VBAC calculator and a way that anyone can advocate for change. Have the courage to set yourself up to feel safe with your birth team and get that supportive birth experience you deserve!

Additional links

Nicole’s Instagram: @polishedplayhouse 

Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: All right. Good morning Women of Strength. We are so excited to be here with you today as we always are. I think every guest that we have brings this different kind of excitement with them. Today we have Nicole with us who is amazing in 360°, just all-around. We were just chitchatting with her before we started the episode today and she is an incredible, incredible, incredible woman. I cannot wait to share all of those interesting details and information about her with you. But before we do that, Meagan is going to read a Review of the Week for us.

Review of the Week

Meagan: Okay, so this is from holmclaugh90. It says “I listen every day. After a traumatic Cesarean with my first baby five years ago and multiple miscarriages in between, this is a breath of fresh air as I await my chance to have a VBAC this October with my second! Love every story I hear on this podcast and it makes me feel so much stronger in knowing I can do this!”

That was put in last July, so that means last October she would have had her baby. So holmclaugh90, if you are still listening, shoot us a message. We would love to know how things ended up.

Julie: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for the review. You know we always love them. They are near and dear to our hearts.

Nicole’s story

Julie: We are so excited today to have Nicole with us. Nicole is really exciting. I just pulled up her bio. We have a form that we have our guests fill out before they come on our show so that we know a little bit about them. The more I read about Nicole, the more I am just like, “Oh my gosh. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this. I need to know more about this.” 

The first one that caught my attention was she is a social media content creator. She has a really awesome Instagram page called Polished Playhouse. It’s all one word, @polishedplayhouse. You can see the link to that in our bio. We are going to drop it there for you, so you can give her a follow. But she-- oh my gosh. There are so many amazing things. 

She creates curated boxes for children ages three to five years old with books and all sorts of educational things in them for your toddlers. I am sitting here, I am like, “Okay. I need to order these boxes. I need to sign up for the subscription box when it comes out,” because there are some really amazing things. I think that what really stuck out to me the most is she is including things with diverse backgrounds and diverse cultures. So her books have black children in them as main characters. 

She is a black woman living in Maryland. I’m excited to talk to her because I want to talk about black birth in America and how bias influences how people of color are treated in the birth space. We can talk about numbers all day how black women are two to three times more likely to have a Cesarean and three to four times more likely to die in childbirth just due to race. Guys, this is straight across the board. It is not influenced by socioeconomic status, education levels, income, any part of the country, there is this bias against people that exist in the birth room and I’m really excited that we are going to talk about that today. 

One of the things that Nicole said is that having a black provider to support her in a VBAC was very important for her because of that bias that exists. And so I’m excited that we are going to be able to hear about it from somebody who has lived through it, who is living through it, and who has come out on the other side having a hopefully-- I am making some assumptions now. Hopefully, having a very supportive experience for her VBAC. And so I am just going to sit here and geek out over her on her Instagram page while she is sharing her story.

But she is incredible and I just can’t wait to hear from her. And so instead of keep talking about it, I am just going to go ahead and turn the time over to her so that you can hear amazing Nicole’s VBAC story.

Nicole: All right. Thank you so much for this generous and kind introduction. I was a member of y’all’s Facebook group and then also listened to the podcast all the time, so it is a huge honor to be on your show today.

Julie: Aw, thanks.

Nicole: As you mentioned, I am Nicole. I have two sons now. I have one who is four years old and then I have the second one who is seven months. I had my first son in 2016 and then had the second one in 2020. For my first son, I started care with a gynecologist that I had seen since college in the DC area. We had a pretty good relationship, so when I got pregnant, I just decided I would continue on with her. 

I had a pretty healthy pregnancy. There weren’t any issues that came up. I was doing prenatal swim classes. I did a lot of walking. I was able to manage my diet pretty well. I didn’t have any challenges. The doctor that I was going to was very cautious, so at the time, I had a number of different tests that she was running on me. She never told me why. Just a lot of different things that I wish I would have asked about that I didn’t being a first-time mom. I didn’t know what to ask. But one of the things that I did ask her-- because she was a very popular doctor in this area. So sometimes, my husband and I would go to appointments and it would be standing room only. There was usually space for all the pregnant people to sit, but if you had a partner with you, they would likely have to stand.

One of the things that I asked her is, “If you’re not able to deliver my baby, then what happens?” And she just brushed it off and she was like, “Oh, well that never happens.” Looking back, there was no way physically that she could have delivered all of the babies. So that just what is something that was lingering for me. If she wasn’t able to be there, what would support look like?

So the night that I went into labor, I went walking. I was bouncing on a ball and I started having contractions. I went and sat in the bathtub. I didn’t wake my husband up. Usually, if I was having Braxton Hicks contractions, I would go sit in the bathtub and they would go away. These did not go away so I started to feel like, “Well, maybe this is it.”

I woke him up and he freaked out. He was like, “Oh my gosh. The contractions are too close. We have to go.” We lived about 40 minutes away from the hospital and I chose the hospital simply because it was where my doctor delivered. I didn’t know to do any research into the Cesarean rate or anything like that. 

So the hospital was about 40 minutes away. We got into the car. My mom was staying with us at that time as well. At this time, it is clear I am in full-on labor. We roll the windows down. My husband is barreling down the highway trying to get me to the hospital. We get there. As soon as I get into triage, I come off the elevator. I get there. My water breaks. I get back and one of the nurses asks one of the other nurses to check me. They check and she quickly starts calling for them to send me back. 

Then, one of the other nurses said, “Well, how far along is she?” I saw her mouth to the other one to say, “Seven.” Once I got to the hospital, my water broke immediately. I was at 7 centimeters. They took me back. My husband had left our car in the middle of the hospital driveway, so he had to go back and move the car. When he went to move the car, I saw my doctor for the first and only time throughout my entire stay at the hospital. She came in and she said, “You know, I know you’re at 7 centimeters, but that was the easy part. I really suggest you get an epidural so that you can calm down so that you won’t be in pain.”

Leading up to that point, I had really wanted a natural birth, but I was obviously in a lot of pain. But she also really pushed the epidural in a way, looking back, in a way where I wish I would have pushed back. My husband was down moving the car so I’m in there by myself and I’m just like, “Okay. I want this epidural.” So I get the epidural. It took over an hour for them to get it. They poked me several times. They just couldn’t get it right. So once they finally got it in, I took a really brief nap, and then they woke me up and told me it was time to push.

So I pushed, and pushed, and pushed. The nurses were somewhat supportive. Now that I have had a new experience, I really know what a really supportive team looks like, but I ended up trying to push my son out for about two hours. He never went into distress. I was exhausted, but he was fine the entire time. So as I am pushing, I am starting to feel really discouraged. I don’t feel like I’m making any progress. 

My sister was there and they kept telling me, “Well, we can see his hair, so I think he is close. We can see his hair. We can see his hair.” A doctor comes in that I had never, never, ever met before. I had never seen him before and he walks into the room. He put his hand down. He looks at me and he says, “You are not going to get this baby out. We need to have a C-section.”

He didn’t say anything else. He didn’t introduce himself. My husband said, “Well, I need to talk to you outside.”

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Nicole: Yes. The only reason I can remember what he even looks like is because my sister has a picture of him.

Julie: Wow.

Nicole: He didn’t tell us his name. Nothing. He was like, “There is no way you will push this baby out. You need to have a C-section.” So at this point, I am just hysterically crying. My husband goes out and talks to him. He told my husband that my son was just too big. There was no way he was going to get out, if it was a risk of him being paralyzed, just all of these things. 

So I cried, and cried, and cried, and then agreed to the C-section. I went back. First, I had to go back alone and I just remember shaking so bad. I couldn’t tell if I was shaking because of the medicine, or if it was because I was afraid, or what. Finally, my husband came back. They let my husband come in and then I had a C-section. He was 9 pounds, so he was a big boy. He was a big boy, but we didn’t get any information aside from the fact that “He is too big. You won’t be able to push him out. You have to have a C-section.”

So afterward-- when I tell the story, I talk a lot about the parts where I was separated from my husband because I think that’s where I felt the least supported because I didn’t have him there.

Julie: Yeah. He was your voice.

Nicole: Yes. They separated me from my husband. I went into a separate room and they were checking me, doing all of these things afterward, and they let my husband go with the doctor and the baby, and then a nurse came in. I heard her talking to the doctor that delivered my son and she said, “But she is allergic to this,” and I heard him say, “It’s fine.” The nurse said it again, “No, but she is allergic to this,” and he said, again, in this very direct tone to her, “She’s fine.” What happened was, they gave me something that I was allergic to. After I had my son, I broke out in hives all over my body.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Nicole: I was literally digging into my skin. People say, “Oh, well after you have the epidural, you itch.” I’m just like, “No. I’ve never had a baby, but I can’t imagine you are supposed to itch like this.” So they just kept giving me allergy medicine after the fact, and then they put an allergy bracelet on me. This was after I had already had a C-section, after I heard the nurse tell the doctor twice that I was allergic, they put an allergy bracelet on me. And then after that, I see pictures of myself and I am so tired. It’s because I am literally just pumped full of allergy medicine because I had this horrible reaction.

So after that, we had a decent stay in the hospital, didn’t really have any complications from the C-section, but one thing that always stood out to me even now is until I went to my follow-up appointment, I never saw my doctor again. I never heard from her again. Her shift ended while I was having my son and I literally never saw or heard from her again until I went to the appointment. Ahead of the appointment, she sent a review from her office, so she wanted me to review her. And so I think it was out of four stars. I was very generous and gave her three just because I felt like she abandoned me.

Julie: Yeah.

Nicole: The entire appointment, my first six-week check-up after my C-section, all we talked about was why I gave her three stars instead of four.

Julie: No. No, really?

Nicole: She never asked. Yes. Yes. She never asked how I was doing. She never asked anything about the baby. She was just so hurt and upset that I gave her three stars instead of four.

Julie: Wow.

Nicole: So needless to say, I didn’t go back.

Julie: You should have gone back and changed the review to one star. That’s what I would have done.

Nicole: I know. Yes.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Nicole: So I was good because I had a really positive healing experience. I didn’t have any complications. I really was just like, “Oh, well I am one of the lucky ones. This is okay,” but not until much later did I start to think about the emotional impact of having the birth that I wanted to be changed in really such an insensitive way. 

So when we started thinking about having a second baby, I knew that obviously, I was not going back to her. I had started researching about VBAC, started listening to y’all’s podcast, joined the Facebook group, and really started looking for a provider. I learned a lot about black maternal health which I didn’t know before. I learned a lot about biases and a lot of it of just not being listened to, not being heard from black women mirrored my experience.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely.

Nicole: I really wanted to have a black provider. I found out that I was pregnant in late October 2019. We lived in DC when I had my first son. We had moved to Maryland right outside of DC and I found a practice, all midwives. There were only four. It was a small practice. Two of them were black and then two were white, but they were really, really experienced and from everything I read, it was a really pro-VBAC practice.

I went there for care. I had a completely different experience just from the very beginning. With my first doctor, I always felt like I was very sick. With them, I never feel like I was sick. They were just so positive. They kept reassuring me, “You can do this. We think you can do it. We know you can do it.” Never did any type of VBAC calculator, anything like that. They were just really positive.

So I was going there. I went there all the way through March, so up until I was about 20 weeks, I went there. I had such a positive experience, always left really happy. March 11th of last year, I went for my 20-week scan. This was right when COVID was just starting. It was just starting to be talks of, “This is a thing. This might change everything for us.” So I went at the 20-week. It was one of the appointments where they were just starting to limit people who could go into offices. So I went to the 20-week scan, everything was great. The next day is when we got an email from work, from my job, that we were going 100% remote. That’s when my son‘s daycare closed. It all happened in that same week.

And then I was home on my very first day of remote work and I got an email from the midwives that said, “We are so sorry, but after 20 years, we just cannot continue the practice. It’s just not financially viable for us, so we will be closing.”

Julie: Oh my gosh. This is so much all at once. Oh my gosh.

Nicole: Yes. It was the day that the world shut down and I’m sitting here like, “Well, this is the new normal. I work from home. My son is here,” and they sent an email and they said, “This is it.” They would be doing births through May and my due date was July. I could stay on with them until May or I could switch then. I was just completely devastated because I had grown so fond of all of the midwives. I had met with all of them.

I knew there was another practice in the same area, so I just thought, “People have positive births with midwives, so I’ll just switch to that one.” I continued to get care from them up until around the time that they closed, but I had been researching where I would go. So they closed. I went to my last appointment with them and at that time, I started really looking into also getting a doula. The hospital where I would be delivering had, in maybe April or May when COVID was really bad, they said, “No additional support people,” so, at that time, I couldn’t have a doula. I would only be able to have virtual support. I was bummed about that. 

So I’m looking into the possibility of not being able to have a doula or having a virtual doula and then also finding someone completely new to deliver my baby. I went to one appointment at the new practice. This was, again, the only appointment that I had during my entire pregnancy where my husband was not allowed to come with me. I went to this practice. I went in and immediately it was, I don’t know. The energy of the place just did not feel right to me. I went in. I was sitting. I was waiting and then the midwife came in and she said, “I need to do this calculator on you.” And I had heard about the calculator. I heard a lot about the limitations, a lot of the biases that are built into the calculator.

Julie: Yes.

Nicole: Again, this is someone who did not introduce herself to me. She didn’t ask me anything about my--

Julie: All she wanted was a number.

Nicole: She wanted the calculator. She did the calculator and the calculator said that I had a 30% chance of a successful vaginal birth. She was like, “You know, I mean, I can let you try, but just look at this. Your chances are not good. I’m telling you now.” She said it in a very matter-of-fact way. “Well, I mean, what have you been doing with yourself?” And at this-- I was so sick during my first trimester.

Julie: Wait a minute. She said, “What have you been doing with yourself?”

Nicole: Yes. She said that because--

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Nicole: Because I had a big baby before that there was a chance that I would have another big baby and she linked big baby essentially to me eating too much. So, I know.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Nicole: Yes. At this point I was--

Julie: And this is a midwife.

Nicole: Yep. This was May, so--

Julie: Was it a white midwife?

Nicole: Yes. This was May.

Julie: I think this is where bias is coming into play as well for sure.

Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Mhmm.

Julie: Sorry, I’m going to let you keep telling your story. Sorry.

Nicole: That’s all right. She made a lot of assumptions. At that point, I had literally gained nine pounds because I was so sick during my first trimester. I didn’t gain a lot of weight at all. And even with my son who was 9 pounds, I gained 27 pounds for my entire pregnancy. And then for my entire pregnancy with my son, I gained 27 pounds and he ended up still being a 9-pound baby.

Julie: That’s still a perfectly average weight gain.

Nicole: And so she asked me, “Well, what have you been doing with yourself?” I am like, “I have been walking. I’ve been eating hardly. I haven’t gained a lot of weight.” She said, “Well, I am telling you now. You will have to get a weight scan close to your due date and at that point, we will decide whether or not we can try for the VBAC.” She said, “But based on this calculator, I don’t think you have a good chance.”

I said, “Well, I have heard that the calculator is inaccurate.” She said, “Well, we have been having some conversations at the hospital about it, but we still think it is the best tool.” I said, “Okay.” I left there. I literally held myself together just to get to the car and I was so frustrated. I called my husband. I am like, “This is not it. I am not doing this with them, so we have to find someone else.” This was right in the middle of the worst of COVID, so a lot of places were not seeing people in person. They were doing a lot of telehealth visits, especially for someone as far along as me. 

So I don’t know what to do. With the first practice where I was, I had to go to an OB/GYN to get essentially cleared for the VBAC, and the one that I went to, I really liked her. I decided that I would transfer to them. I am like, “Okay. I will just move on from midwives and I will transfer to this OB/GYN.” She was also a black woman. I started the process of transferring to that practice. I looked online at the reviews and the reviews were either a one-star or a five-star. So then I looked further and the practice actually was about 30 doctors and you didn’t get to decide. It was whoever was on call, so that reminded me a lot of my first birth where it was just this doctor that I had never met that I didn’t have a relationship with, so I quickly got over going there. I got over that and I had no idea like, “What am I going to do?”

So my husband has a really good friend that was a doula. She is taking a break right now. He called her and she told us about the hospital where I ended up delivering in DC. She said, “If you want to have a VBAC in this area, that’s where you have your very best chance.” So the midwife practice in DC, they are very, very popular. They have all of these rules you have to follow. There’s a specific diet and they have different groups that meet, so I just was convinced it was too late. 

I was about 32 weeks at this point. That was so late. It’s the middle of COVID. There’s no way they will let me join. They wouldn’t let me make an appointment with midwives, but they did let me make an appointment with the OBs. So I went and I saw the first OB. I was very nervous. I am 32 weeks at this point. This is my last shot. So she came in and she was asking me about the birth and she is like, “Yeah, I see that the first baby was really big.” And I just was like, “Oh my gosh. Here we go again.” She is like, “Well, that really shouldn’t hinder you.” So I just was like, “Oh my goodness. I think I found my people.”

Julie: What a relief to hear.

Nicole: Yes, I think I found my people.

Julie: Yes.

Nicole: So she was really great and that was a white provider. She was really great. She was like, “Well, I don’t think that will be a hindrance. We deliver 12, 10, 11-pound babies here all the time.” She obviously gave me the risks for the uterine scar tearing, all of those things, but just in a very informative way, but still very supportive and saying, “We think you can do this.” So because they made my initial appointment with the OB’s, I just was convinced, “Okay. This is it. I have to go to the OB‘s.” 

I went to another appointment. I met another one of the OB’s. She was also great and then about 35, I think it was 35 weeks, that hospital, in particular, said, “We will allow doula support again.” I was seeing a prenatal massage therapist and she had been watching the hospitals, like, updates for me really closely. She texted me in the middle of the night, “You can have doulas again at the hospital, so make sure you find one.” 

At this point, I needed a doula within a week’s notice. So I went on Instagram, was reading, scrolling, looking for a doula. I found one doula, a woman of color that I reached out to. I sent her an email and I am like, “I know it’s completely late. I am delivering here. I’m having a VBAC. Please, will you take me?” She said, “Well, you know, I really don’t come to that part of Maryland. I really don’t come to your area, but can I think about it? And then I’ll let you know.”

We had a quick chat and later, she told me she just was making sure, feeling me out. We had a quick chat and then we signed the contract. She was my doula at about 36 weeks. I met her in person only one time and she suggested to me, she said, “I know you have had these two appointments with the OB’s and feel comfortable, but I really think you should switch to the midwives.” I am like, “I am 36 weeks. There’s no way they will let me do this.”

So when I went to an appointment at about 36 weeks or 37 weeks, I asked one of the OB’s, I said, “Do you think they would let me switch to the midwives?” She said, “I don’t know. We really don’t do transfers this late, but I will ask.” So she sent an email to the midwives and she said, “We have a mom here who really wants to be seen by a midwife. She is a VBAC. She seems like a good candidate. Please, will you do this for her? She really wants it.”

For some reason, they said, “Yes.” I went to an appointment at 38 weeks. I went to my last appointment with them and my very first appointment with the midwife. I was 38 weeks. I think it was a Tuesday and I met a black midwife that I had heard about. Everybody talked about how amazing she was and she was just this fierce advocate for black birthing people and she is just amazing. And so my first and only appointment with the midwives was with her and it was just so great. I am like, “Yeah, they did the calculator on me.” She’s like, “Oh no. We don’t use that calculator.” She talked so badly about it.

Julie: Yeah. That’s what I like to hear.

Nicole: Yes. She was like, “We don’t do that. Blah blah blah.” So I told my husband, I’m like, “Oh, I really hope we just get the luck of the draw.” It was, I think, six or eight midwives and I’m like, “This is it. This is it. I really, really want her. I think I will have a great experience with her.” So I went home. I was praying, “I want this midwife to deliver my baby.”

I started having contractions the very next day after I met her and I am like, “I don’t think this is it.” So I actually went and I did some shopping. I went to FedEx and mailed some packages and my contractions started really picking up. I texted my doula and she was like, “Well if they get a little closer, let me know. But I think this might be it, so you should go home. Take a nap. Lay down.”

I laid down for a little bit and the contractions just kept picking up, kept picking up and I knew like, “This is it.” So my husband called the doula. She said, “I won’t make it to your house. Just hurry and go to the hospital.” On the way to the hospital, I had to roll the windows down and get air. We were playing meditation on the Bluetooth in the car. We get to the hospital. I say all the time that literally every good person that was available in DC was there at that moment in time from the guy who just literally let us leave our car in the middle of the street and asked if I need a wheelchair if I needed anything. 

My doula was literally standing right there as soon as we got there. We went up and at this point, I am in full-on labor. I am trying to practice my breathing, doing everything. I get checked in. As I am getting checked in, they say, “Can you call the midwife who is on call?” And then one of the nurses said to the other one, “Which one is it?” and she said the name of the midwife that I had met literally just hours before, this black midwife that I told my husband, I am like, “That’s her. She is going to deliver the baby.” And she was on call. At this point, I am bawling because I just cannot believe that all of this has worked out in this way. 

So she comes back. She checks me and I was 9 centimeters. They had to give me a COVID test. They gave me the COVID test. I didn’t even get the results.

Julie: Yeah, I was going to say.

Nicole: They took me right back. My husband went down to move the car and I’m like, “Oh no. This is déjà vu. This is what happened last time.” But I had a doula with me and she was there and she was advocating for me. I honestly didn’t even need any advocacy anyway because they were just so great. So I’m like, “I don’t know what’s happening. I think I have to push.” I remember the nurse said, “Well, push,” just so casually. 

So I was sitting there and I’m like, “Okay. Maybe I will try to push or just try to breathe into it.” My doula talked me through some breathing. I was on my back. They called the midwife. They said, “You have to come in here. We think this baby is coming.” My husband got back right just in time. I am literally still fully clothed. 

At one point, I was on all fours and I heard the midwife say, “Okay, his heart rate is dropping.” And I said, “Oh no.” They all slapped me back into reality and they were like, “No. You turn over and you push this baby out.” So I turned over. I did three massive pushes and he came flying out with his perfectly round head, which was the first thing I noticed about him, and a head full of hair. 

I just could not believe it. My doula was able to get a really great video of it and I said, “Did I do it?” And they all said, “Yes, yes, yes. You did it! You did it!” It was just such an amazing experience the way everything worked out, just the support from all of the nurses. It was such a healing, liberating, amazing, amazing experience. At no point did I ever feel like I would need a second Cesarean. They didn’t even mention it. Everyone was just committed to helping me have the VBAC that I really wanted.

I was able to do skin-to-skin with him right away, which I wasn’t able to do the first time. I had such a different healing experience. It was just a really, really great experience for us.

Julie: That’s amazing. If everybody would feel so supported in their labor-- you went through a lot of negativity until you found your people. Like you said, “These are my people.” And to feel so supported during your labor and to know the midwife that was going to be delivering your baby, that had to be such a weight off of your shoulders. That alone probably shifted your entire feeling going into the hospital.

Nicole: Yeah. It was such a great experience and the midwife, after I had been with her, she had to leave really quickly because somebody else was having a baby, but when she came back in, I just kept thanking her over and over. She was telling me, “No. You did it. You did it.” And I just kept thanking her over and over because I just felt so grateful that she was there and that she listened to me. I am just forever grateful to her.

The VBAC calculator

Julie: That’s amazing. There are so many things I want to talk about. Holy cow. We just don’t have time to talk about it. First of all, the VBAC calculator is awful.

Nicole: Yes.

Julie: Let’s just talk for two minutes about the VBAC calculator and then I want to get into some current legislation to improve maternal health outcomes for everybody, but specifically with a specific focus on reducing the mortality rates for black people and minority populations. 

The VBAC calculator, we actually created a bit.ly for it. So if you go to bit.ly/vbaccalc, it will bring up the VBAC calculator. Put in all of your information and calculate it and you will get a percentage, right? First of all, if you’re preparing for a VBAC, this calculator is not evidence-based. ACOG discourages even using it and if you have a predicted success chance of less than 50%, it doesn’t really mean anything. 

My first client ever as a doula, my very first client was a VBAC. She was an islander and her VBAC success calculator told her she had a 4% chance. Like, a four. F-O-U-R. She pushed her baby out in 20 minutes, guys. She totally nailed it, right? And so don’t let that number discourage you, but what I want you to do is go in there, put your in your information, and calculate your number.

And then, change your ethnicity. Change it from white to black and calculate it. Just change only that one thing and when you input black as your race, it drops your chances by 20%, roughly.

Nicole: Yep. Exactly.

Julie: It’s always right around 20% just because you are black.

Nicole: I did that. Yep. I did that and I had about a 30% chance when I was black. I didn’t change anything else, my weight, my height, anything, and when I took out black, it went up to a low 50%. Yep. It went up a little bit over 20%. Exactly.

Julie: And my VBAC, just for comparison, so my VBAC calculator was 62% was for my first VBAC and then when I changed it to black, it dropped it down to 48%. Now that I have a way higher BMI when I calculate it now and keep in mind I’ve had three VBACs, it takes me being white to 42.7% and when I’m black, it drops me down to the mid-20’s.

The VBAC calculator is based on a sample size of 7,000 people. They just tried to use all of this data to collect to tell what kind of chances people could have because in healthcare, they love data. They love to see the numbers. They like to know what’s going on. They like to predict things. But what they didn’t consider in that calculator is the bias that comes in the birth room for black women specifically because our black parents are dying at 3 to 4 times higher rates than white women of the same socioeconomic status, education level, income level, and same parts of the country, and Hispanic people are dying at twice the rate. 

And so we have this big healthcare disparity, but oh my gosh. It is so hard. I am so grateful for the last year. COVID has totally sucked, but I think there have been a lot of good things that have come about, lots of stirrings, and lots of noise, and riots, and challenges, and things come up where black voices are being amplified and we are hearing them more in our healthcare system. We are hearing them more. I think that’s a really good thing, but if you are just some white doula from Utah like I am, what are we supposed to do? How can we influence the healthcare disparity in our local communities? I have an answer, something you can do if you want. I don’t know, Nicole, have you heard of the Momnibus legislation?

Black Maternal Health Momnibus Act of 2020

Nicole: No. I need to look into that.

Julie: Yeah. So Representative Underwood is a black female representative in Congress and she introduced the Momnibus Act. It’s spelled just like it sounds. It’s M-O-M-N-I-B-U-S. It’s designed to address the overall-- we are one of the greatest nations in the world, but we have one of the highest maternal mortality rates and that’s really sad. But what is even sadder is the disparity of those mortality rates between white people and people of color, and black people are in a separate class. They are even more likely to have Cesareans and more likely to die during childbirth. 

And so this act addresses the overall maternal healthcare system in improving and decreasing that overall maternal mortality rate but also decreasing the bias that exists in our healthcare system. I’m just going to go over-- you can just Google “Momnibus Act”. They introduced it in 2020. They’re making some changes to it and they are introducing it again in 2021.

I mean, a lot of some good changes have started to be implemented in 2020 just coming from this, but the bill has 12 key points in it. I am going to try and just go through these super quick.

The first one is, “Make critical investments and social determinants of health that influence maternal health outcomes.” So housing, access to healthcare, transportation, and nutrition. “Provide funding to community-based organizations.” So community healthcare in underserved populations, community-based maternal health care, rather. 

They are studying the risks facing pregnant/postpartum veterans, which, I am a veteran. I served in the military for five years, and so I think that’s actually a really cool thing that they put in this bill in addition to everything else. But they want to put effort and money into diversifying the perinatal workforce because Nicole, you said it was really important to you to have a black provider to reduce the risk of bias against you. So this bill has a goal to increase the number of black providers and providers of other color that we have access to in our healthcare system because that’s another part of the problem.

Nicole: Yeah. Mhmm.

Julie: “Data collection processes” so we can better understand the maternal healthcare crisis. “Support moms with maternal mental health” because that’s a big thing as well. “Improve mental healthcare and support for incarcerated moms.” “Invest in digital tools to help monitor maternal health overall.” It has lots of other things. I’m not going to keep going on, but one of the things I really like is that it talks here about educating providers about these biases that exist in their space because I know that a lot of the time, we are not aware of our own inherent biases that exist around us.

Nicole: Yep.

Julie: And I think as white people, it’s easy to kind of brush off, “Oh, well I am not racist. I don’t treat black people any differently than I treat white people,” but then doing that dismisses the idea. Even if that’s true, it closes you off to see what other things you might be doing or what other things exist in our healthcare system that are biases against people of color. And so I think that’s a big thing for me right now is just being more aware. I have had, I know me and Meagan have both had clients-- other nations, Asian clients.

My biggest one I had was a Hispanic client and man, there was such a bias against her. I can’t even tell you the amount of crap we had to deal with in the birth room and this is just here in Utah. And so we have seen and experienced it ourselves, but I think when you say, “This is not a problem because I am not a problem,” really closes you off to help fix the problem. 

So what I want you to do right now if you’re listening and you want to help change this big gap in maternal health care for black women and other women of color is I want you to go look up your local state representatives and senate members and send them an email, or just Google “Momnibus Utah” or “Momnibus” in your state because each state has their own ways of introducing the stuff. I know Utah, maybe not all the states do, but most of the states have their own versions of the Momnibus Act they’re integrating at the state level as well. 

Google your state representatives. Google your state Momnibus Act and send a letter to your representative, to your local legislator, and tell them that you support this, that this is important to you, and you want them to vote to move this forward and start implementing this across the country because that is the biggest way to get things to change from the top is letting your state representatives know that this is a big issue for you. When they hear the voice of the people that vote for them, that’s the biggest way to get them to change things. 

Even get a community petition started, or something to where you can bring this up to your local leaders in our country, but also focus on your state as well because there is-- gosh, I wish I had the information in front of me. There are ways to reach out and I don’t know. There’s somebody here in Utah that was in charge of introducing a Utah version of the Momnibus Act. Gosh, it is just missing from my brain right now, the information. 

But giving feedback to our leaders, giving feedback to our leaders is what’s really, really important and then being aware. Don’t say, “Hey, I am not a problem because I don’t treat black people differently.” You say, “Hey, this is a problem. Let me be more aware of it,” and just observe. Even observing and being more aware of the actual problems and what they look like is going to help you be more cognizant of things you can do to help change them. 

And then as birthing people, stand up for yourself. Change providers. Find your voice. I know it’s not as easy as I make it sound. It’s easy for me to say that, right? But getting educated about your options. Knowing like you knew, Nicole, that the VBAC calculator is crap. It is just crap. But you knew that. But somebody that doesn’t know that and doesn’t know that it is biased against black people is going to say, “Oh my gosh. I only have a 30% chance of success. Maybe I just shouldn’t do this at all,” and then they have a repeat Cesarean which increases your chance of maternal death anyways-- a very small amount, but then, I mean, it’s just a huge escalation. So being aware of the racial disparity in our healthcare system, and then observing it, and seeing what it looks like practically in your local area, and then speaking up and emailing your state representatives and your state government leaders about the Momnibus Act are things that you can do right now, today in order to help improve this change, and being aware of it, and stepping up for people. 

If you witness people of color, whether you are white, black, Asian, Hispanic, whatever your ethnicity or your background of your color is, speak up if you’re witnessing this. If you’re seeing this happening, speak up and say, “Wait, this is wrong.” I guess it could just be regardless of whether it’s due to race or not, but you should always speak up if you see somebody being mistreated in the birth room. But also, don’t be afraid to file complaints against the hospital or against the provider because that’s another thing that is just going to bring more awareness of what is going on in our local communities. 

Sorry. I feel like I’ve been talking for just a really long time. Nicole, what would you add to that?

Nicole: I think everything that you said is important, but I really want black women, women of color to know it’s okay for you to advocate for yourself. It can be very tiring and very exhausting on top of what should be a very happy and positive experience but don’t be afraid to advocate for yourself and don’t be afraid to switch providers. If you go see someone and you get a feeling just in your interaction with them that you will not have a positive experience with them, don’t be afraid to switch. 

I switched three times in the middle of a pandemic and it was honestly the best decision that I ever made. I would also suggest if you can, get support from a doula, or a partner, or a trusted family member so you always have someone else there to give voice to what you’re saying, what your needs are, what you are experiencing, but just really advocate for yourself. Don’t be afraid. Don’t think you’re being too much, or you’re asking too many questions, or you are being too aggressive, this is your life. It’s the life of you. It’s the life of your baby. Advocate for yourself and don’t be afraid to do that.

Julie: Absolutely. I think that’s so, so, so important. I love that you switched providers twice. But I’ve had clients, and I know we’ve had several people on our podcast, switch providers until they find the right fit. If somebody is treating you wrong, you have the right to leave providers and go to a different birthing location, even if it’s in the middle of your labor. I know that sounds really hard and scary, but people have done it. It’s been done. 

All right, Nicole. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today. I am seriously fangirling over here on your Instagram. I love your subscription boxes. Seriously, we are going to be doing something with that I think. Like, your monthly subscription. I want to get my hands on these diverse books for my kids. I really do. It’s a really important thing for me. 

I’m happy that we found you, and that we connected, and that you shared your story, and especially for allowing us to talk more about the healthcare disparity with black people in our country. So thank you. Thank you for spending that time with us today.

Meagan: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Nicole: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

We are joined today by our friend, Kalie, from Illinois. You will be captivated listening to her two wildly different birth stories! Kalie’s first birth was a crash Cesarean after a brutal labor experience with a difficult recovery. Kalie’s VBAC was an unexpectedly fast and furious birth in an emergency room. While her VBAC was a whirlwind experience, she was still able to be a strong advocate for herself and her birth wishes. 

We also talk about precipitous labor and how to make empowered decisions instead of fear-based ones. Trust your body, listen to your intuition, and use your voice. You’ll know just what to do if your baby decides to come ASAP.

Additional links

Episode 18 Leslie’s HBAC + Special Scars

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. This is The VBAC Link podcast. We are excited that you are here with us. We have an awesome story. I mean, seriously though, every story is awesome, right? This is our friend Kalie. She is actually from Illinois, so we are excited to hear her amazingly fast VBAC. We are also going to talk about precipitous birth and what that looks like, and how to know what to do, and all the fun things like that. Before we get going into that, we have Julie with us who is going to read a review.

Review of the Week

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Before I read a review, I want to tell you something funny. I have a friend, Leslie. She is on Episode 18 as a special scars episode, the very first one that we did on special scars. It was funny because we were preparing for our VBACs together. Our babies were born one month apart, so she was due a month before me. It was really funny because in both of our VBACs, the one thing we did not prepare for is the one thing that happened that was really big for us. 

For me, I was not prepared for my water breaking before labor or to actually go into labor before 40 weeks. I had my baby on my sister-in-law‘s wedding day. I woke up to my water breaking. I was not prepared for that. I was prepared for everything else, but not that. And then my friend Leslie, her thing was she was prepared for everything and she was expecting to have a super long labor because her first birth, it was a Cesarean. It was 40-something hours. It was so long and the one thing she was not prepared for was to have a baby in two hours and that’s what happened with her. She had her baby in two hours.

And so I think it is so interesting because people think, “Oh my gosh, long labors are so hard,” but let me tell you, these fast labors come with their own set of challenges. So it has been a while since we have had super quick labor on the show and it’s going to be fun to talk about that today. But as Meagan said, I am supposed to be doing my job right now and reading a review of the week. You know me. I can’t help but talk.

Okay, so this review is from Apple Podcasts. It is from ejennd. It’s like initials enough, but not quite to where we can go stalk her on Facebook and see if she has had her VBAC or not. Right? Like, don’t tease me ejennd. I need answers. Okay. Her review says, “I found this podcast while I was preparing for a VBAC after two Cesareans.”

Her first was an inverted T. Holy cow. I did not even read that part of the review, which is really interesting because the friend that I was just talking about, Leslie, had an inverted T. Isn’t that something? Okay. I’m sorry. Let me start over.

“I found this podcast while I was preparing for a VBAC after two C-sections, first one being an inverted T. I listened to the episodes while I went for my five-kilometer walk a few times a week. The encouragement and knowledge that I gained from listening was a huge factor in giving me confidence to go forward to have a VBAC. 

I’m happy to share that we welcomed a baby girl via an unmedicated vaginal birth last week. It was harder than I thought but more beautiful than I could have imagined. Thank you for your continued work in empowering and educating women to make informed decisions for their own bodies that are not shame or fear-based. I am eternally grateful for the network of support that was around me. Thank you for being a part of that. 

Much love from Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.”

Oh, Canada. I feel like we have so many people from Canada. Like Ontario, specifically.

Meagan: Yeah, we do.

Julie: We have a lot of VBAC doulas out in Ontario, our business manager website guy is in Ontario. My husband actually served a mission for our church to Ontario, Canada. So I wonder if that’s where we are getting the Canada vibes from.

Meagan: I don’t know.

Julie: I feel like we are getting pretty popular in Canada with these Canadians. Makes me happy. One thing on the review that I wanted to point out-- empowering and educating women to make informed decisions that are not fear-based. It just reminded me of what Mari Vega said. “Fear-based decisions do not belong in your birth.” 

Fear-based decisions do not belong in your birth. They don’t. It is educated and informed decisions. Those are the kinds that should be in your birth, and ones that are followed by your intuition, and ones that you feel comfortable with, not ones that are based on fear. And so I really like that she said that in that review. It made me happy. And, I have closure with that review because she told us already that she had her VBAC baby. So I don’t have to go try and stalk ejennd. Hey, it’s kind of like agenda. All right. I’m going to stop talking now.

Kalie’s story

Julie: Go ahead, Meagan.

Meagan: All right. All right. Let’s get into this amazing story. We will officially turn the time over to you, my love.

Kalie: All right, cool. Well, thank you guys so much for having me. This is pretty cool. I listened to your podcast so much, so it’s cool to be on it. So I guess I will just get started. I wouldn’t have had a VBAC story if I didn’t have a C-section story, so I definitely just want to talk about that first because it is a big part of my VBAC. 

So for my first birth, when I got pregnant, I was so set on having an unmedicated birth. I feel like I prepared pretty well to do that, but maybe just not with picking my provider. I just went with the gynecologist that I was seeing. I was like, “Oh, she is nice. This will work.” But I did a lot of reading. I listened to a ton of podcasts. I was so excited to have an unmedicated hospital birth.

So I had a good pregnancy and everything, and then when I went into labor. I was in denial that I was in labor. I stayed home all morning, all afternoon, tried to labor at home as much as I could. I think around 1:00, so this was back in December 2018 was when I had my first son. So when I actually got where I was like, “Okay. I think I actually am in labor,” my husband called our doctor or the OB, and she was like, “Yeah. You should probably go into the hospital.” 

So when I actually left and went to the hospital, I got checked when we got there and I was already at 6 centimeters. I was so convinced that they were going to be like, “You are not even dilated,” because that’s what I had heard in so many stories. Your first time, you get there, and then they’re like, “Oh, you have to go home. You are only at a centimeter.” So I got to the hospital, I was at 6 centimeters. I was so excited. I’m like, “Okay. This is going to happen.” 

We got admitted to a room and it was probably around 6:00 p.m. I just labored in the room with my husband. They had asked me in the beginning when I got there if I wanted to get an epidural. I said, “No.” They didn’t bug me about it at all. They just would check on us and everything was going really well with my laboring. I used the yoga ball a ton. I was so confident that it was going to end up how I wanted it to end up and what I had planned for. 

I think it was around, the timeframe of that birth is so blurry, but I think it was around 7:00 p.m. I want to say. So I got into the hospital around 4:00 p.m. and then around 7:00 is when I think I was around 8 centimeters. At one point, it was when I was at 9 centimeters actually, is when they said, “Maybe we should break your water. You don’t have to do it, but maybe it will help you progress,” or get ready to push. So I was like, “Okay, I agree to that,” and they broke my water. 

Up until that point, I totally had everything under control. I felt like I was doing such a good job coping with the contractions. I just felt good and then once they broke my water, I just went onto a whole other level. I was stuck in the bed at that point and I mean, it felt like it was insane, but I think it was an hour had passed and that’s when I started getting the urge to push.

So I was screaming to my husband, “I need to push. I need to push.” He gets the nurses and then all of a sudden, the room is filled with people. It was just us and then all these nurses come in. They get the doctor. Whoever else was there. I mean, I couldn’t tell you. But they get everything ready for me to push, even though I was already pushing as it was because you can’t really control it once you get that feeling. It’s just happens. They brought in the doctor and I started doing the actual guided pushing and, I don’t know. It was just so hard. So much harder than I was thinking especially having the whole labor-- everything was going so well, I thought. I was like, “Man. This part is not what I was expecting.” 

So I keep pushing. They were doing the typical my legs back as far as they can go, telling me to hold my breath. You know, the “1, 2, 3”. I was basically half-there listening to them, but it was like the yelling-at-you type thing where they were like, “Push, push, push!” We were doing that for a couple of rounds, I guess. I am not really sure, exactly. But at one point, she was like, “Okay.” She either said, “This isn’t working” or “He’s not coming out” or something, so they suggested that we try the vacuum. 

My birth plan, my husband knew everything that I was like, “No” to and I did not want to have a C-section. That was my biggest thing. I did not want to have a C-section. I was so scared of it. That’s actually the main reason why I didn’t get an epidural because I thought that would cause me-- for some reason, I thought that would turn into me getting a C-section. So then when she said to try the vacuum I am like, “That’s fine” because I would rather try that than have to get a C-section. So they tried the vacuum which, in order to do the vacuum, they have to do an episiotomy. 

It’s hard for me to tell you how everything went down because this is mostly secondhand from my husband telling me what was happening. I don’t remember them cutting me or anything, but this whole time I do not have any pain meds or anything. So I get an episiotomy, which I don’t feel like I remember feeling, but I had a lot of pain going on already. And then, they attempted to use the vacuum and the same-- I really don’t remember the pain. It was more just like-- it was just a crazy experience.

So they try that and it doesn’t work. So they were like, “Okay, let’s keep pushing.” I continue to try pushing and they were basically just saying, “He is not coming down and we need to get him out fast. We need to get him out fast. He’s not coming out.” At this point, the room is completely filled with even more people. They call in this other doctor who, I don’t know who he is, but he comes in the room and he is like, “What is her epidural level at?” My doctor was like, “She doesn’t have one. She is trying to do this unmedicated.” Because he was like, “We are going to try forceps.” They don’t usually do that when you don’t have an epidural. So I think, I don’t know what made them decide just to do it. I honestly don’t know. I know they were using shots of the Novocaine or whatever they put on just with a shot. So I think they tried that.

He attempted to use forceps. That pain I do remember because it was a pain from my leg all the way up to my arm that I felt. It was a horrible, horrible feeling. That didn’t work. I think the whole time they were trying to get it around his head and it just wouldn’t get around his head, so it didn’t work and then they were like, “We are going to try one more time with the vacuum, but if it doesn’t work, we need to get him out. We need to have a C-section.” They tried again with the vacuum and it kept popping off. It didn’t work. So at that point, it was a mad rush to get me to the OR to get him out.

Meagan: Was baby’s heart rate down this whole time? What was the reason why they needed to get baby out? Sorry to question, I’m just wondering.

Kalie: I don’t remember them specifically saying anything about his heart rate. I just assume that’s what the case was, but he was so close. When I was pushing, they would see his head and then it would go back in, and see his head, and it would go back in. So it was like he was in the canal, but he just wouldn’t come out. Maybe, yeah. Like I said, I was half there because I was just out of it.

Meagan: Oh yeah. I can imagine.

Kalie: So I am sure that is part of why they needed him out so fast because when they did rush me to the OR, they threw a blanket on me and rushed me down the hallway. At one point, they literally ran into a wall and then got me into the OR. I had all my jewelry on still, so they were trying to get out my earrings, get out my jewelry, and then they put me on-- and at this whole point still, I am still having, he is still coming out. You can’t control that pushing. He was just pushing.

Julie: Yeah, you are still pushing. Oh my goodness.

Kalie: So I’m put on the operating table and I am like, “I don’t have an epidural. I don’t have an epidural,” because I thought they were just going to cut me open because it was just so urgent and rushed, and then they finally put a mask on me. That’s when I went to sleep and I don’t remember the rest. Yeah. It was just so frantic. 

So after that, my son was born at-- this was December 12th at 12:00 a.m., so at midnight. That’s when he was born. I woke up probably around, I want to say it was 4:00 a.m. or 3:00 a.m. and I was just completely confused. I had no idea where my baby was. I didn’t even, to be honest, know if he was even alive because everything was just so crazy. I woke up in a recovery room. My husband was there, but he also didn’t know anything that was going on with our son because he didn’t even get to go in the operating room because, I think it’s something when you are under general anesthesia, they don’t let other people in there. They just pushed him aside and were like, “Get out of the way. We have got to get this baby out.”

So once we finally-- I woke up and had the shakes, all of the terrible aftermath of a C-section. The way I met my son was, it was probably not until 5:00 a.m. that they rolled me. I was on the bed thing and they rolled me into the NICU to meet him. The first time I meet him, he is strapped to all of these tubes and it was terrible. It was a terrible, terrible experience from the birth to meeting my son, and then he ended up having to stay in the NICU for, it was just a week. They basically were making sure he didn’t have brain damage or wanted to prevent him from having brain damage from the labor or from the birth because, like I said, how he was in the canal. I think it’s called something like HIE or HE, some condition that they were trying to make sure they prevented. So he was put on this cooling mat for 72 hours basically bringing his body temperature down so that he didn’t, to prevent swelling.

Julie: Yeah, like brain swelling. HIE is correct. It’s swelling of the brain, brain damage increased that it sounds like with the cooling. It sounds like you had a crash Cesarean. Something was wrong and they had to get baby out right away. So yeah, that sounds a lot like what one of my clients had happen.

Kalie: Yeah. It was so terrifying and then I mean, also just him being in the NICU and on the cooling mat. You can’t hold him. We didn’t get to hold him until, I think it was, three or four days after he was born. Luckily every day, he got better. He didn’t have any brain damage. He’s a completely perfectly healthy two-year-old, but just the worst experience ever. It sucked. So it was a hard recovery. I had an episiotomy with a third-degree tear, plus I had a C-section. So I had both fun things going on that I had to, like, I couldn’t, both. Yeah, it sucked.

After that fun experience, I was like, “I probably am not going to want to have any more kids for a while.” So once I got pregnant again, which was when my son was 13 months, so at that point, I was recovered. I still had so much fear from that experience. Just fear of having-- I know I wanted to have more kids, but I was just like, “How are they going to come out?” Because I didn’t want to have a planned Cesarean for another child because still, even just the thought of a C-section freaked me out. I just didn’t want to have to do that. I figured since I had a C-section, that’s what was going to end up happening. I would just have to get a planned one for the next time, but I knew that there were VBACs. I knew that was a thing.

Literally, the second that I got pregnant, or found out I was pregnant the second time, I started listening to your podcast. I just nonstop was listening to all the stories. It was one of the reasons why I was like, “Okay. I can totally do this.” I was still so scared to even try just because of that fear of that happening again. I was like, “Maybe,” because one of the things they mentioned was, “Oh, your pelvis is probably just too small to give birth, actually.” So I always had that in my head like, “Oh, I can’t do it. My body can’t do it.” It really made me doubt myself for the next time.

So I was just like, “I am going to go for it, but I am just going to have to do things differently.” So when I got pregnant, it was the start of coronavirus stuff, so it was really weird in the beginning because I didn’t really have many doctor’s appointments. Everything was on the phone and then with restrictions at hospitals, they weren’t really sure they were going to be allowing doulas. I knew if I wanted to do a VBAC, I should hire a doula because that’s not something I did the first time, so I know it was something I wanted to try this time, but they were so unsure if it was even going to be possible to have that. 

When I got my provider, I obviously did not use the same provider as my first time because I wanted to find someone who was one, VBAC supportive, and I just wanted to go to a different hospital altogether. I wanted to try something completely different, so I found a midwife. She was out of a different hospital and she was not known for VBACs, but she was supportive. It was a VBAC-supportive hospital, so I was excited about that. I was confident in my provider. I was still doubting my body, basically. I was just scared. 

But around the time I was 36 weeks pregnant or so, everything was fine. My pregnancy was good. I want to say I was 36 weeks pregnant. I had a little spotting and I ended up going to labor and delivery because I had never had that before with my first son. I was like, “What does this mean?” Because they always put that fear of uterine rupture in your head. You have to be careful with anything like that just to make sure that’s not the case or that that’s what’s happening. So I went to labor and delivery around 36 weeks and had to get monitored for spotting. They checked me and I was a centimeter dilated, but I wasn’t in labor or anything. So other than that, my pregnancy was fine.

Around the same time was when my midwife was saying it would be okay that I hired a doula, that I would be able to have them with me when I deliver. So I didn’t hire her until around 36 weeks. I only had, I think I met her-- my doula’s name is Georgina. She came over twice before I actually had the baby, but she was super awesome. She was excited for me to have a VBAC. She basically was, we had a plan for what would happen. I was still going to plan to stay at home as long as I could and everything.

So onto my birth, because it all happened pretty quick. I was actually due October 1st and I had my son on September 28th. So it was a Sunday and in the morning, I, my husband, and my other son went to the park. My doula had told me something about curb walking which, I don’t know about if you guys have heard about that, but she was like, “Yeah. You can try that.”

Meagan: I love curb walking. I have done curb walking to help my clients get into more of an active pattern.

Kalie: Yeah. I am honestly convinced it’s one of the reasons why-- I don’t know. You can’t really-- you don’t know.

Meagan: But you know it helped.

Kalie: But I feel like it was definitely something, yeah. It did something for sure because we were at the park and I did some around the park because we were at the park. My son was at the slide and I was just walking around, walking around, and then we went home. It was a Sunday, pretty uneventful, but my doula was planning to come that day to have a meeting. She came around 12:30, noon and we talked for a little bit. She showed me some videos and then she was going to do this fear release with me, kind of like a meditation thing. 

She had me lay on the couch and relax and she read me this thing about letting go of your fear because she knew how I had so much trauma from my first birth and so much fear with this next one. She wanted me to be more confident that I could do it. So I basically laid on the couch and listened to her talk. It was funny because she was done, and I sit up and I am like, “Something feels a little weird,” because I had so, so, so many Braxton Hicks contractions my whole pregnancy from when I was 20 weeks pregnant on and at the end there they were just constant.

So I am like, “Oh, you know,” it was just another Braxton Hicks, but it felt a little bit different. So she was like, “Oh, maybe you will call me tonight,” as a joke. Totally as a joke and she went home. So I think she left around 2:00 or so from my house and I was just hanging around. I think I don’t know. My husband and my son were outside playing. I was just doing stuff around the house and then I started getting that crampy feeling. Even with the first time around, I was in denial when I started getting contractions that they were contractions. I always was just like, “I have a stomachache.”

So this same thing happened where it was around, I would say, 3:30. I started getting what I was calling stomach pains, but what were actually contractions. I told my husband, I am like, “I don’t know. I feel like-- I don’t know. I kind of feel crampy.” So I tried to time them and they were coming on super fast, only five minutes apart. And I was like, “It’s probably just a stomachache,” because then-- TMI, but then I went to the bathroom and I had to poop. I was like, “Oh, okay. Maybe I just had to poop.”

Julie: That’s a sign.

Kalie: Exactly. And then after I pooped, it continued, so I was like, “Okay. Maybe they are contractions.” I literally vacuumed upstairs. Anyone who knows me is like, “Wow. That is not surprising.” I was just in denial that they were contractions, but then I was like, “Okay.” These are really hurting me now. So I was like, “I’m going to take a shower and maybe that will help calm them down,” because my mom lives in Tennessee and the last birth, she had to leave in the middle of the night. 

It takes her nine hours to get to us and she had to leave and rush to get to our house when my first son was born. I didn’t want her to do that this time around because I felt so bad. She was like, “You have to let me know.” I am like, “Okay well, there’s only so much I can know for sure.” So I told her, “I am having cramps. I think they’re contractions.” I told her I was going to call my doula, and take a shower, and I will keep her posted. I had texted my doula and she wasn’t responding, so I took a shower. It felt good to have the hot water on my back, and then I got out and they were starting to get really intense.

So I was laying in my bed. I called my mom and I was like, “Okay. She is not answering, but I really do think these are contractions.” She was like, “Okay. I am just going to wait until she responds to you,” like she would know for sure that’s what it was. I was like, “Okay well, I’m just telling you.” So I went downstairs and I got the yoga ball because I used that so much the first time and I was thinking it was going to help this time. I sat on it and I was trying to balance. I was in the living room and I remember I called my husband because they were outside. My husband was with my son outside. I called them and I was like, “You need to come in the house because these are starting to really hurt.”

So he came in. He was trying to rub my back and do counterpressure and stuff and my son was trying to help too which was really cute. It started getting really intense where I was really vocal and it was freaking out my son because I wasn’t crying, but I was on the verge of that. I was like, “Okay. I am going to try to take another shower because I don’t want to freak him out.” So I went back and I tried to take another shower. While I’m in the shower, I am really, really in pain and my husband was trying to make my son dinner. Yeah, I think it was dinner at that point. 

He is in the kitchen and I am screaming from the shower, “You need to call my mom and tell her to leave. I think we need to go to the hospital.” And so he is like, “Okay, okay, okay.” Luckily, my aunt lives five minutes away. She was our plan to watch my son. So he had called her too and let her know to come over. So luckily, she got there really fast. But I was in the shower and I had that urge again where I was like, “I think I have to poop again, but I am not going to try.” I was too scared that something was going to happen because it was so, so intense. 

So I was just trying to stay in there as much as I could because the heat was helping, but it was way, way, way too hard. I couldn’t even really control myself at this point. I was just in so much pain. My husband was trying to get the bag and trying to get my son his dinner. I am screaming. I get out of the shower and I’m trying to get dressed. I can’t even get dressed. I’m trying to sit in the bed. Being on my hands and knees helped a little. I was doing that on the bed trying to get dressed. I’m like, “We need our toothbrush.” I’m like, “We need that. We need that.” 

I had our hospital bag packed, but not everything, so I’m just half there trying to tell him what to do and get stuff. We finally are almost ready to get going, but I am in so much pain at this point. I make my way down to the living room. Our garage door is right there to get out to the car. I am on the ball again just like, “Get my shoes. Let’s go.” 

My husband is like, “Okay. Let’s get in the car.” I am like, “I can’t get in the car right now. I literally cannot get in the car. If I get in the car, we are going to have a baby in the car.” That’s how I felt because I just felt that I wasn’t getting the urge to push yet but it was just, it was so close to that feeling. So because the hospital that we were going to is about a 25-minute drive from our house, I just knew I would not be able to stand the pain in the car. Plus, we had just bought a new car. I’m like, “I am not having a baby in our new car.” But I just was in so much pain. I’m like, “I can’t even get in the car. It’s just going to hurt too bad.”

So he was like, “We can call 911.” I was like, “No we can’t. We can’t call 911 for this.” For some reason, I’m like, “You don’t do that to have a baby.” So he is like, “Yes. We have to call 911 because you won’t get in the car.” And I was like, “Okay. If you think that, then we can do that.” So he called 911 and at this point is when my doula finally decides to call back. So she’s calling my phone. He is on the phone with 911 and she was like, “Kalie, what’s wrong? What’s going on? What’s going on?” because I had texted her and then Kevin-- my husband’s name is Kevin. He had called her too to be like, “Hello. This is what’s happening.” 

She calls and I am yelling in the phone because I am in my contractions still and I am like, “I need to go to the hospital. I am about to have this baby,” and she is like, “What? What? What? What is going on? Put Kevin on the phone. Put Kevin on the phone.” I am like, “Kevin is on the phone with 911,” or whatever.

So finally it felt like, I don’t know. It probably wasn’t even that long, but all of a sudden, the 911 people get there-- the paramedics and the fire department. You can hear them pulling up and they walk through our garage into our living room. All of these men. I actually sent you guys a picture. I don’t know if you got it of this. It is kind of hilarious because it is me in our garage with eight firemen and paramedics. They were like, “Okay, what’s going on? What is going on?” I am like, “I need to get to the hospital.”

Julie: You’re like, “I can’t get in the car!”

Meagan: Yeah.

Kalie: Yeah. I was like, “You guys are doing way too much talking and not enough driving. We need to get to the hospital.” We have three hospitals nearby us and the one I was going to was not the closest one. They were asking me what was going on. They checked my vitals and everything was fine, but they were like, “Okay. We are going to get you to Palos,” which is the hospital that is right by our house. I was like, “No. We’re not going to the hospital. We are going to (this little company). This is the hospital that my midwife is out of.”

And at this point, my midwife probably isn’t even working. I don’t know why I thought she would-- I don’t know. It was happening so fast. So they were telling me they can’t take me to this hospital that I need to go to and I’m like, “Okay well, I’m not going with you then because I am not going to this hospital. I am going to the other hospital.” So we did a little talking back-and-forth and then basically we were going to get back in our car and my husband was going to drive because they weren’t going to take me to the hospital I wanted to go to.

And then, another guy comes in and he is like, “Oh, the chief said it is okay. We will take you to the other hospital.” So whatever. After all this, finally, we got into the thing and I’m like, “Okay. You guys need to go fast.” So I am in the ambulance and I am still having the intense contractions. I am squeezing this paramedic’s hand. He had said he just had a baby too, so he was like, “Oh. I know if I were to tell my wife this at this point, she would kill me, but if you get the urge to push, don’t push.” I am like, “Dude. Can you just let me hold your hand and scream?” Because that’s how it was at that point.

So they were driving in the ambulance and they were calling into the hospital to say, “Hey, we have this person. She is coming. She’s in labor.” Oh, and my water didn’t break or anything at this point either. And then, the hospital told them that they couldn’t go there for some reason because they were going to be bypassing these other hospitals and it was apparently against the law, or against the rules, to pass.

Julie: Oh my gosh. What is going on?

Kalie: I know. I am like, just get me somewhere at this point because I did not want to be on a stretcher. They just weren’t moving fast enough for me. But they ended up taking me to a different hospital which is actually the hospital that I gave birth at the first time around, which is a really good hospital. I just didn’t want to go to that hospital. But as they’re taking me out of the ambulance on the stretcher and rolling me Into the ER, is when I am getting the urge to push. So I am like, “Okay. This is happening now.” 

The whole time I kept telling them, “I need to get to the hospital so I can get an epidural,” because I had this thing in my head that if I didn’t get an epidural that I would have a C-section, and basically that everything would happen again. So I was like, “I need to get my epidural. I need to get my epidural.” They roll me into the ER and they basically put you in the ER. I had never been to the ER and it’s a stall.

There were just a million people. There were sick people on stretchers and I am like, “Oh. I don’t think I should be in this place right now, especially when the coronavirus is going on too.” You know? But obviously, I just needed to get this baby out. So they put me in a stall and there are a million people asking me questions like, “How old are you? How many weeks pregnant?” I was 38+3 weeks pregnant and I am repeating myself over and over. 

I am answering the same questions over and over and then I am like, “Give me my epidural. I need my epidural because I don’t want a C-section.” I didn’t say that part but I am like, “I need an epidural.” And this doctor comes and he was like, “I’m going to check you,” and he was like, “Okay. We can’t give you an epidural. You need to push this baby out right now.” I am like, “Okay, whatever.” 

And so they get me ready to push. They basically take my clothes off and pull my legs back, and he started doing a thing where he pulls down on your perineum before I was doing the actual pushing and it was hurting me so bad. I was like, “Stop it! What are you doing?” Because it was hurting me and I was just like, “Whatever you are doing, you need to stop.” He was like, “I need to do this.”

Julie: That’s my biggest pet peeve.

Kalie: Oh my god. It was more painful than actual pushing, so I kept screaming at him. I am like, “Stop doing that. Stop doing that. You are hurting me.”

Meagan: That’s why we created the shirt. “Get up out of my perineum.”

Julie: Yeah. We have a shirt that says, “Don’t be all up in my perineum.”

Meagan: Because it’s not comfortable and it’s not needed. It’s really not.

Julie: Not evidence-based.

Kalie: It hurts. Actually, yeah. I talked about it to my midwife after the fact and she was like, “I know. I need to tell people to stop doing that.” But yeah. I kept yelling at this man. I was like, “You’re hurting me.” And he actually stopped doing it. He did it when I pushed, but not in between pushes because that was when it really hurt. So I start pushing and I am just in my head having flashbacks of, “Oh my god. He is not coming. He is not coming.” I was just a little freaked out, but I pushed with all my might and after I think it was two or three pushes, he came out. 

I just turned from pain to so happy. I was on cloud nine. I was like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. He is out.” I am like, “Give him to me. Give him to me.” I wanted him to be on my chest. Since we were in the ER, they don’t deliver babies every day so they were like, “No, we need to take him. We need to make sure he is okay.” And he was fine. He was crying. He wasn’t under any stress or anything, but they were like, “Okay, fine. You can have him.” 

They put him on my chest for a second and I was like, “Aww.” I was so happy, and then they took him. As the guy was going to cut the cord, I am like, “No, don’t cut it,” because I wanted to have-- everything that I wanted, I wanted still, like the delayed cord clamping. I wanted to have him on my chest. I wanted to have all that experience that I missed out on the first time too, but they didn’t listen to me. They just cut it and they took him. They checked everything and he was fine. He was healthy. 

So eventually, at that point this whole time, which I totally forgot to mention, my husband is driving to the hospital because they didn’t let him go on the ambulance with me, so I didn’t even know where my husband was. The nurse called him on my phone and she was like, “Yes. We have your wife. She is fine. The baby is healthy,” and he was like, “What? The baby is here already?” I think he was in the waiting room waiting to get into the ER.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Kalie: I know. He missed both births of our children. I know. But honestly, I didn’t care because I was so happy I had my VBAC. I was so happy.

Julie: You’re like, “I’ll catch him up later.”

Kalie: Yeah. I mean, obviously, he missed out on seeing it too which sucks. So eventually, we got reunited. They took me up to a labor room or whatever and that’s where I had to push out the placenta which, I was actually really excited for some reason to see the placenta because I didn’t get to see that too before. Then, that’s when my husband was with me, so he got to see that part. 

And then I got the baby on me and it was just crazy because my son was born at 6:47. My labor started around 3:30, so all of that happened in that amount of time and it was insane. I just remember sitting in the room and I was just like, “How do we have a baby right now? How did this happen?” I mean, I was so happy. I also felt so good. I didn’t have a tear or anything, so I just felt good. I was on a whole other level, but it happened so quickly that it was also just like, “Is this real? I can’t believe that we have a baby.” 

But after everything, I was up and peeing an hour later. And yeah. Everything was good. It was awesome. My doula also missed the birth because after she called, she drove up to the hospital, but she was also stuck in the waiting room and they didn’t let her in. But she would have missed it anyway, so it was just me. But I did it, and I was super proud of myself, and I felt awesome.

Meagan: As you should be. You should be very proud of yourself. That’s awesome. You have been on two really wild journeys.

Kalie: Seriously. Complete opposites.

Meagan: Yeah, and both very wild.

Kalie: Very wild.

Meagan: You know, just wow. So crazy.

Kalie: Yeah.

Precipitous Labor

Meagan: It’s interesting. As a birth worker, sometimes people will be like, “Oh, this is what I am feeling. This is what I’m thinking.” And sometimes with birth workers, we are like, “Maybe.” You know? But this is something that I have learned. Julie, I am sure you would agree. Don’t ever discredit a mama saying, “This is labor.” Do you know what I mean? Because sometimes it is so hard, and you go so fast, and you can’t get in the car. Do you know what I mean? It’s just so hard.

Kalie: It’s so funny because I remember hearing similar stories. I think there was one recently where a woman gave birth in a parking lot and I was like, “That would be awesome to have an experience like that,” and I never honestly ever thought I would ever have. I didn’t even think I was going to be able to have a vaginal birth, let alone something like that, so it was crazy. That’s for sure.

Julie: Yeah. Well, and then another thing too is on the flipside, Meagan, having clients be like, “Well, I really don’t think this is it,” because that’s totally me with my first VBAC.

Meagan: Oh, I know.

Julie: I was like, “Wow. That was a really weird Braxton Hicks from an irregular pattern to ten minutes apart, but I’m not having a baby.” Granted, mine was not that fast, but my midwife and doula were teasing me. They were like, “Just rest and put your feet up,” because I was 38.5 weeks. Nobody was expecting me to have baby that early, right? 

And so sometimes as doulas, it is not our job to give medical advice, but we just stand at the ready. We are like, “Okay.” And so if you would’ve told me or texted me-- I tell my clients, I am like, “If you ever just have really loose stools or are pooping all day, I want to know about that. Tell me because that is a sign that your relaxin hormones are really amping up for labor and it’s a sign that it’s pretty close.” And so as soon as you told me that, I’m like, “Yep. Baby’s coming.” That was interesting.

Meagan: But yeah. That’s so true. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t think this is labor,” but they are 9 centimeters. It’s just crazy. Oh, what a fun journey for you. That’s crazy, but fun. We are very proud of you and you should be shouting to the rooftops, “I did it and I feel good about this.”

Kalie: Yeah, it definitely felt really good. I just don’t know if we were to have another kid how fast it would come, so I don’t even know, I kind of just want to end on a good note. It works out.

Julie: Or have a home birth with a home birth midwife.

Kalie: I almost did I feel like, but at least I didn’t have an ambulance birth because that would have been--

Julie: Oh my goodness.

Meagan: Yeah that would have been-- yeah.

Julie: Nope, you’re fine.

Meagan: I was just talking about precipitous labor. I know we talk too about it a lot, “Follow your intuition,” but truly follow your intuition. If something is telling you, “This is it. This is time,” Speak loud and share it. If you’re not at the place you are needing and planning to birth, definitely tell people. It’s really hard like she said, you don’t feel like you can move. You don’t. I had one client that had precipitous labor. Things were going slow at first. Like, “I think this is maybe contractions,” and then it was like, boom. Bang. Like, wow.

Julie: Boom. Bang.

Meagan: Baby out really fast, right?

Julie: I remember that birth.

Meagan: We almost had to literally, her husband and I, pick her up and literally put her shoulders, or her arms, over our shoulders and picked her up and walked out. I jumped in the backseat of their car and we were rushing and I’m calling labor and delivery. Meet us on the corner. We are going to have a baby. Like, I mean, it it just was crazy. It can happen. Our bodies are incredible. So, yeah. It’s hard. It’s hard to know what’s going to happen.

Kalie: For sure.

Julie: Expect the unexpected. What was it? I think Sarah made a post the other day. “The only predictable thing about birth is that it’s unpredictable.”

Meagan: Yeah, so true.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Kay’s story is a must-listen for everyone! Hopeful VBAC moms, CBAC moms, first-time moms,  and birth workers will be inspired by Kay’s wisdom, beauty, and strength. 

Kay was Julie’s first cross-country virtual doula client. She shares her journey of thoroughly preparing for a VBAC (complete with a color-coded binder!), having 100% confidence in her intuition, and ultimately having a euphoric CBAC. Yes, euphoric! Julie also shares a special lesson learned from Kay that she will never forget.

“My biggest piece of advice to anyone would be to have that plan C. Have A, B, and C and be so at peace with all of them. Love every part of them because that made all the difference in the world.

“I think it’s just as important to listen to all of those beautiful VBAC stories as it is to listen to beautiful CBAC stories because it does not have to be the trauma that most of us have experienced in our first C-section. It can be different.” 

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Community on Facebook

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everyone. This is Meagan and Julie. You are listening to The VBAC Link. I am currently driving in the car and Julie is her usual, very organized self sitting in front of the computer. We are excited to record today’s episode. This is Kay. She is actually a virtual client of Julie’s, so I’m excited to hear this story from her because I heard the story from Julie. So yeah. We are excited to get into this story. 

Review of the Week

And of course, we have a review of the week. Since I am driving, we are going to turn the time over to Julie, since I cannot read and drive, and then we will jump back into her story.

Julie: Yes. We are quite a dynamic duo. We record in the dentist’s parking lot, on the road, in our home.

Meagan: That’s true, yeah.

Julie: I remember the early days. Oh my gosh, the episode with Dr. Cormano (Episode 15).

Meagan: Oh man. I was in the car going to a prenatal.

Julie: I was in my garage in the car and it was 80° outside. I was sweating, but I didn’t dare turn the car on because of the AC noise. Oh my goodness.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Julie: That was so crazy. Oh my gosh. We have come a long way, and then we have regressed a little bit because of COVID. But one day, we are going to be in a studio again and our kids’ schedules won’t be as crazy, or they will be crazier. When they are all in school during the day, that will just be nice because we won’t have to worry about all the preschool shuffling around and all of the things. 

But for now, this is what you get. We are real-life moms just like you. So, so excited to share Kay’s story today, but before we do, like Meagan said, I have a review. This review is from Apple Podcasts and the reviewer‘s name is Matthias.Band. The review title is, “So much love for this podcast.” 

She says, “I am a mom who has had two VBACs following the Cesarean birth of my firstborn. If I could give a gift to my post-Cesarean self while preparing for my VBACs, it would have been this podcast. I did not discover this podcast until after my last birth, but I have fallen in love with the hosts and the women who come here to share their stories. 

“Listening to Julie and Meagan feels so often like sitting down with friends due to their candor and obvious passion they bring to this facet of childbirth and early motherhood. I love this community they have created that genuinely understands the emotional impact of birth and the many reasons, both physical and psychological, why women pursue VBAC. Julie and Meagan are so knowledgeable, kindhearted, and obviously hardworking.

“Keep up the good work. You are making an impact.”

That is so sweet. I love that. Doesn’t that just make you feel so good, Meagan?

Meagan: I know.

Julie: Not going to lie, sometimes business is a little hard and sometimes things get a little bit rough. We love getting reviews like this because it really, really does keep us going. It lifts our spirits when times are more difficult than others and really these kind words just-- I just can’t even tell you how many times they have lifted me up when I have just been really struggling with life generally, but specifically some business stuff. So thank you. Thank you, Matthias.Band on Apple Podcasts. We appreciate your review so much.

Kay’s story

Meagan: Okay, you guys. So, so excited to get into this story. Kay, if you’re okay with it, we would love to turn the time over to you.

Julie: Wait, can I talk first for a minute?

Kay: Sure. Please.

Meagan: It would be out of character for you not to say something.

Julie: Yes. So I’ve just got to-- you know how I am. I am going to try to not take up too much time because I want to give Kay plenty of time to tell her story. But Kay was my first virtual client that did not live in Utah. We all know that during COVID-19 and all of the hospital restrictions, and the lockdowns, and the difficult policies, and restrictions that were being placed under the families, most parts of the country don’t allow doulas in. There was a time when all of this started that they weren’t even allowing birth partners and husbands to be able to be there for these women’s birth. 

It has been a journey. We are out of the part where they don’t allow husbands or birth partners into the hospital, but in some areas, most areas are still restricting doulas. We are really lucky here in Utah that most hospitals are allowing one support person plus a doula right now, but in a lot of other parts of the country, it’s not like that. So something that has become more emergent in the birth world, in the doula world, is virtual doula support. 

What most people think of when they hear “virtual doula support” is, “I don’t want to be on Zoom or FaceTime with my doula the whole time. That just sounds weird. She is staring at us in the room and being like, ‘good job’ on the phone.” Let me tell you, virtual support looks so different than what you would think or would imagine. I have supported a couple of clients locally, virtual support just by force, because of a hospital switching policies the day before they had their baby and things like that. I’m sure, Meagan, you have dealt with the same thing, but it was really neat to have Kay reach out to me from across the country wanting doula support initially because the hospital that she was birthing at wasn’t allowing doulas and she was like, “Heck, if I’m going to have a virtual doula, I might as well have The VBAC Link as my virtual doula.”

Kay: Right.

Julie: So luckily, I had an opening. Let me tell you, it was such a beautiful experience. I am so glad that we connected. The hardest part about virtual support is just not being there when the baby is born. I was literally in tears when Kay was having her baby because I wasn’t there with them. But it’s pretty amazing. And so I am sure Kay is going to share part of that in her story with you as far as how she prepared and things, but without further ado, I am going to turn it over to my wonderful, digital client who I feel just as close to as if it was an in-person client, Kay.

Kay: Thank you. Yes, it was quite a journey. This is my fourth child. So to go through, the first one was a vaginal birth. It took me 38 hours to birth that child and recovery was fine. I had my second birth and with this one, I opted to get an epidural right away. I dilated to 10 cm and everything was going great. I pushed for five and a half hours only to have a C-section after that. It turns out my little guy was wedged diagonally into my hip pocket. When the doctor pulled him out, she goes, “He’s sunbathing” because he had his hands behind his head and his legs crossed like he was just lounging at the pool. 

And then, my third baby was actually adopted in March. We had been trying for about two and a half years and thought adoption was our way to go for the rest of the children that we were going to have in our family. God had other plans. So we adopted my daughter in March and found out, I think it was in April or May, that I was pregnant.

It was quite a surprise for both of us. So while I was having my newborn, I started researching VBAC. I came across The VBAC Link and when everything went virtual, I thought, “Hey, what the heck? I’m going to reach out to them and see if there is any chance that you would take a virtual client.” Lo and behold, Julie got back to me and we started our journey together. 

So once I started to learn everything, I did HypnoBirthing, I did Julie and Meagan’s class on The VBAC Link which was absolutely amazing. I did Spinning Babies®. I was doing my exercises. I had practiced how my birthing room was going to look. I had gotten tea lights and my essential oils. It was really important to me because I was planning to birth at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore and I knew that they were a very big hospital and I wasn’t sure what type of doctor I was going to get. 

So I stayed with my provider the whole time because you can see so many different providers at that location. I had just expressed my wants and my needs to have the birth that I desired and everyone was very supportive. But I was still a little iffy on the whole situation. I knew that if I was going to have the birth that I desired, I had to keep training and keep learning. So I am a bit OCD in that I had a color-coded binder with all of the different exercises and all of my notes that I had learned from Julie, and from HypnoBirthing and Spinning Babies®.

Julie: I loved that binder. It made me so happy. You are just like me. I feel like we are soul sisters or whatever you want to call it because you are exactly like me.

Kay: Yeah. It was great. But that’s why I wanted us to have you there so much because I knew as much as I planned and trained, when it came down to labor, sometimes you forget everything all at once. That’s why it was so nice to have you there. 

When the labor actually hit, that was another story. I hit my due date and nothing. I hit week 41 and nothing and girls, I was doing everything. Julie knows. I was doing my Miles Circuit. I was walking. I was doing curb walking and this child just said, “Nope. I just want to stay in you for as long as I possibly can.”

At week 41 and, I think it was, five days, they did schedule an induction. I was so nervous. I almost left the hospital twice. I just didn’t feel like my body was ready and I think because of all the nerves, I just felt the baby pulling upwards instead of being in that nice, down position he had felt like he was in for the previous week. So after many conversations with Julie and then speaking with the doctors, I thought, “Okay.” We started the process. 

After talking to Julie, I came up with the idea of, “Hey, can you try to do a membrane sweep first and give me a few hours?” So that was nice. They did the membrane sweep. They did give me a few hours. Nothing really happened. With my previous birth, my water broke after my membrane sweep and things started to progress a little bit, but with this one, it didn’t happen.

So the next step was the Foley bulb. That went well. I dilated to 4 centimeters fairly quickly, and then I pounced on the ball like crazy and I just wasn’t progressing any further, so they said, “Hey, we want to do a slow Pitocin.” So again, during all this time, I had Julie on text with my husband and I was texting with her. I think we did some phone calls too and I kept saying, “What is the best way to do Pitocin?” I couldn’t remember even though I had this beautiful binder in front of me about what the best way to do it was and Julie said, “Hey, this is what I recommend if you can do it,” and luckily, the hospital was very accommodating to that. So I think I did two units every hour I think it was.

At that point, things were going well. The contractions were getting intense. It had gotten up to a level 8 of the Pitocin and I was going through a pretty intense contraction. Once it clicked up to level 10 of the Pitocin, I was in a lot of pain. I was having a hard time breathing. My husband was texting Julie and she was saying, “Hey, try this position. Try this position.” I labored on the toilet and I labored in the shower. I labored on all fours. I did everything that I could and it was just getting so intense to the point where I was having a hard time breathing in. I could breathe out beautifully, but I couldn’t breathe in and that’s the point when I said, I needed to get an epidural because it was taking so much out of me that I was a little nervous I was going to pass out or just not have the energy to push when the time came.

So that point, I did get the epidural which was a godsend. I don’t know if you guys had felt like this if you had an epidural, but once I had it, I felt a little bit out of it. I had oxygen on my face and I felt like I was watching everything from above as I was trying the different positions to get baby to descend. All of a sudden, they asked if they could check me. As soon as I turned onto my back, the baby’s heart rate dropped and it wasn’t anything super scary. It was kind of a quick drop, and then they were able to stabilize baby and it was okay. They checked me and I was at 7 centimeters, so I thought, “Oh gosh, this is good. This is going really, really well.” 

But the baby was really high in my belly and after sitting in bizarre positions with the epidural, I didn’t feel like I could get him low. So thankfully again, if you have the choice to get a virtual doula or no doula, get the virtual doula because again, I was texting Julie saying, “Okay. What should I try now? How should I do this?”

Thankfully, I also had a nurse that was trained in Spinning Babies®, so she suggested some positions. We were going to try the side-lying release. So we got me on my side and we started to do it. I probably was there for about a minute and baby’s heart rate dropped again. This time, it was pretty scary. His heart rate went down for what I thought was two minutes and later found out it was five minutes. My husband‘s face was absolutely white as a ghost as they kept saying, “We are not getting his heart rate back up. We are not getting his heart rate up.” There was definite panic in the room. Finally, I switched sides again and his heart rate did come up and they were like, “Just don’t move.” So I stayed in exactly the same position until baby was “happy again” and thankfully, he was.

But it was every time I even tried to roll a tiny bit into a different position, the heart rate would drop again. I was definitely getting a little scared. So my husband looked at me and said, “I am getting a really bad feeling about this.” My heart dropped a little bit because I had wanted so bad to have a VBAC, but we are very religious people and I kept thinking, “If he’s getting this thought, there’s something to it.” 

So we stopped and we prayed the Rosary and we just really thought about what should be the best decision. In the middle, as we were praying the rosary, my husband kept saying, “I feel like somebody is holding the baby’s hand and not letting him descend.” I knew as soon as he said that, there was a gut instinct that said, “This is probably not our best solution to go ahead and try to push once I get to 10 centimeters, that it might be better to have a C-section.” I was nervous about this because I know the recovery of having a C-section and I have a 10-month-old baby at home. I didn’t want to not be able to pick her up or hold her, but at the same time, I wanted to get through this labor with a healthy baby and a healthy mama. 

He just kept saying, if we get into the pushing stage and he gets stuck, we are going to be in an emergency and I had that feeling too. I didn’t want to voice it because I had trained so hard. I did everything I needed to do and I mean, I ate, I think, six pineapples that week trying to get myself in labor. I ate it every single day. I did the exercises religiously, but you know when you get that gut feeling. and the one thing that I love about The VBAC Link course is that they tell you if you get that feeling, you need to trust your instincts. That’s one of the hardest things to do when you want a VBAC so bad.

So I was scared. The doctor came in and I told her. I said, “Listen. I am not actually scared of the surgery. I’m scared of the recovery. I am afraid that something catastrophic could happen afterward like a blood clot or something crazy like that.” And because I had that VBAC Link training, I was able to say to the doctor, “Listen. You might think this is silly, but this is what’s bothering me and this is why I’m scared.” I literally said to her, “I am scared I’m going to get up and have a blood clot. I am scared you are going to try to get me to walk and I could have an aneurysm or something like that.” 

She was shocked that I asked those questions and said, “How did you even hear about that stuff?” I said, “Well, I do a lot of research and I have had a C-section before and you hear stories-- horror stories with vaginal birth, and horror stories with a C-section, but I need to know that you are going to look out for these things and be on my side and take care of me after the surgery.” She was really kind. She went through all of the risks, which were so minuscule. When she said the statistics of having something like a blood clot, or an aneurysm, or something like that afterward, it eased my mind big time.

I think also having The VBAC Link training because you go over the risk of uterine rupture and then once you hear that the statistics are lower, your mind rests a little bit and it eases your mind. So once I heard the statistics for things that I was probably a little irrationally afraid of, it eased my mind and I don’t think I would have been able to do that if I didn’t have that training. Once I did get that training, it gave me the confidence to speak with the doctor about that stuff. 

So we went on and I went to my plan C. I told the doctor, “Listen.” I was not expecting to have a C-section, but because I made a plan A, a Plan B and I didn’t want to make a plan C but decided to make a plan C after I took your class, I knew if I had to have a C-section, these were the things that I wanted. The things that I wanted were, I wanted to have a clear curtain so that I could see my son. I wanted to have the cord pulse out for as long as humanly possible in a safe manner and I wanted to listen to music. I didn’t want to be in an environment that I was scared of. I also didn’t want my hands to be tied down. I don’t know if that happened with either of you guys, but in my first C-section, they had Velcro that strapped your arms down and that was traumatic.

Julie: Yeah, me too.

Kay: It was just a horrible feeling. I felt like I had no control over what was happening and I did not want to experience that again. I have done a lot of work to heal from that, and then I just was adamant about it. They were like, “Yeah. Absolutely.” They were very accommodating. So when we went into the surgery room, the atmosphere of the nurses, and the anesthesiologist, and my surgeon was so light. I mean, my surgeon was literally dancing as she dressed in her gown and stuff like that. Everyone was coming to talk to me and they had my Jesus music on. 

God bless their souls because I played-- have you guys heard the song Stand in your Love? It says over and over, “My fear doesn’t stand a chance when I’m standing in your love” and I played that song on repeat the entire surgery because it was the only thing that kept my mind grounded. My husband talked to me the entire time. The anesthesiologist talked to me the entire time. They were all joking and I was just so relaxed. My hands weren’t tied down. I had little straps I could hold onto it if I chose to. I had my Rosary in my hands and everything was just really light. 

And then they kept pressing down on my belly to try to get the baby out. They were pressing on my rib cage, actually. I kept saying, “You’re going to break my ribs.” It didn’t hurt that bad, but I could feel the pressure and that baby was so high up in my belly that it took a while to get him out, but once they did, they dropped the curtain. My son locked eyes with me the entire time while his cord pulsed out. They just held him there. That woman’s arms must have been so strong because my baby was 8 pounds and 11 ounces and she held him there the entire time. I think we were there for three or four minutes while the cord pulsed. 

And then as soon as I was done, they let my husband cut the cord and they brought the baby right to me. They didn’t do anything else. He came right and was right on my chest and sat there for a long time. They actually did finish the rest of the surgery and close me up and he was on my chest the entire time. In fact, my husband didn’t even get to hold him. And then when they were done, they did everything they needed to do. They measured him. They weighed him. My husband got to hold him as they were wheeling me back and it was beautiful. It was the most amazing experience. I was on cloud nine. I had just a calm sense that the peace that was in the operating room and the bubble that me and my husband were in is something I have never experienced before. 

It was just, it was a miracle. It was quite frankly probably one of the most beautiful births and situations I have ever been in. I attest it all to being prepared beforehand because I am definitely a people pleaser and I would have never went and said, “Hey. This is what I want.” You know? When they gave me, “No, I’m not sure about the clear curtain,” I said, “That is very important to me. Please, can you try to make that happen?” And they did. It was amazing. It was absolutely amazing. So I am so thrilled and so grateful for everything that you guys have bestowed upon me in terms of training and all that good stuff and for Julie being there virtually the entire time.

Plan A, plan B, plan C

Julie: Yeah. I love that. Before I get into a valuable lesson that you actually taught me during your birth, I want to have you talk more about having backup plans. Plan A, plan B, plan C. Do you want to talk more about that?

Kay: Sure, sure. So plan A, for me, was going into spontaneous labor, not using any medications, and having my beautiful vaginal birth that I envisioned. I had a couple of other different ones in there, but that was the gist of my plan A. 

Plan B was if I have to get induced, to not use the epidural, and to stay as long as possible without the epidural. I had been in a 38-hour labor before with no epidural until hour 28, so I am very well aware of how painful contractions can be with Pitocin, but I was determined to just-- my goal was, okay. Plan B, if they have to induce me and do Pitocin, do two units every hour, and then have them turn it off so that my body could take over. That was my plan B. I also wanted to be able to birth the baby and catch him in my arms and bring him right to my chest. I just love that image. So that was part of my plan A and plan B. 

I did not want to plan plan C. I was just like, “I am not doing it. I don’t want to.” It wasn’t until I took your course that I said, “Okay. I probably should do this. It is the responsible thing to do. So I thought about it for a long time, “Okay. If I have to do a C-section, what would make me feel a lot more comfortable?” One of the things was listening to the different podcasts on The VBAC Link of people who had Cesareans that they thought were beautiful and that they enjoyed the process, and then doing my own research of just hearing people’s stories, so I came up with little things. Things like music made the hugest, biggest difference in the entire world. It just kept my mind calm and having the sheet-- I didn’t even know that there was a sheet before starting to research the stuff about having a clear sheet so you can see everything after they are doing the surgery. They don’t let you see it during surgery. But I would say my biggest piece of advice to anyone would be to have that plan C. Have A, B, and C and be so at peace with all of them. Love every part of them because that made all the difference in the world.

Julie: Yeah. I really liked that about you. Most people, I mean we have talked about it before in the podcast, but most people are like, “Oh, good vibes only. Positive stories only. I don’t want to even think about a C-section because I don’t want to manifest something wonky out to the universe.” Something that I really like is your eagerness to learn and get educated, but also your faith.

So Kay and I are from different secular backgrounds, but we both believe in God. No matter what you believe in, whether you believe in divine power or you don’t believe in anything at all, we all have our intuition that can guide us and trust us. It was really admirable when I was working with you, Kay. Through the whole way, all the way, through our prenatals, through your birth, even post-birth when we had our little visit, you always trusted in God, and you trusted in yourself, and you trusted that you knew what would be the right thing to do if plans ever had to change. 

And plans did change. That’s why having a plan A, B, or C-- I always call them, A is your perfect plan if everything goes perfectly, and then B is the backup plan, and then C is your Cesarean plan. I’d like to encourage all of my clients to have that, but not everybody wants to talk about it. That’s one thing we do go over in detail in our course, like you said, about the importance of having one of those. You can make it and know it’s available to you, and then just fold it up, tuck it in your pocket and never even think about it again. 

But if you need it, guess what? You pull it out and it’s there. You are prepared and you can enter into your birth in a really more confident way. I really like how you said that you were talking with your providers about your concerns. You were asking questions. They were talking with you. This is the thing, I think, that is hard for us to remember as people when we are working with providers and when we are working with people who do birth all the time is that they have a system. We all know that. You go into the system. You check-in. You labor. If you need an epidural, you need an epidural. If you need a Cesarean, you get a Cesarean, right?

All of what they do is very routine and they are used to all of it, so they go through the steps and they go through the motions, but I think what we don’t give providers credit for is their willingness to deviate from the standard of normal. Not all of them. Keep in mind, I’m not talking about all of them. But I think most providers have that heart and mindset that if you just talk to them and ask questions about your concerns or about your options or be really insistent. 

Like for you, it was the clear drape. They were like, “We don’t normally do that,” and you were like, “No. I need that.” And they were like, “Okay well, let’s figure out how to make it work.” I think most providers if given the chance and if asked questions would respond in a similar way. And so I think that’s really great that you were able to stand up for yourself and the things that you knew based on what we had talked about and what you learned in our VBAC prep course for parents is that it gave you the confidence to ask that when you had to pull out your plan C.

Kay: Yeah and you know what? I totally forgot to mention this. But before I got pregnant with my son, I went through two and a half years of fertility issues. Unexplained infertility and just went through the gamut of issues. I knew that I couldn’t handle it mentally with IVF and all that sort of stuff, so I stayed on more of a holistic path of trying to get pregnant and just do that type of thing. 

They were always pushing me to get surgery and said, “You know, something is probably going on. You should probably get surgery to look at your ovaries, look at your uterus, look at your tubes to see if anything is going on.” So you know what? When I was on the operating table, I said, “You know, I saw (the doctor’s name),” and I said, “Hey, can you do me a favor? I went through two and a half years of fertility issues and they were always pushing me to get surgery to see if everything was healthy on my female parts. Can you take a look for me while you’re in there?” 

It was as if she was in the grocery store and I was like, “Hey, can you grab some milk for me?” She was like, “Yeah, sure. No problem. Let me get through this part and then I will check them for you.” And she did. She went through and she goes, “There are two beautiful ovaries. Your tubes look great.” I said, “What about my intestines? They always mentioned something about my intestines like maybe there was scar tissue?” And then she was like, “Okay, give me a couple of seconds.” And then a minute later she goes, “Oh, your bowels look beautiful.”

Meagan: What a weird compliment to have, huh?

Kay: Right?

Meagan: “Oh, your bowels-- they look beautiful.” You’re like, “Thank you. I am glad that my bowels are in good shape.”

Kay: It’s so true because--

Meagan: But it’s a really good thing.

Kay: Yeah, and after having people question that something is wrong for so long, it starts to get in your head and you think, “Oh my gosh, is there something wrong? Should I have gone through with the surgery?” But I would have never in a million years asked that question if I have not gained the confidence through the parent prep course. There is no way I would’ve ever done that. But now, they closed me up and I go, “Hey, I know my insides are all healthy too.” It’s like a bonus.

Julie: Well and I just imagine you sitting there on the operating table. You are literally open and having these conversations with a provider. Oh my gosh, to be a fly on the wall. I mean, hopefully, there are no flies in the operating room. You know what I mean. But just how actively involved in your birth you were throughout the whole process. There are so many more details that I know that I feel like we can talk about your birth for two hours, but I want to share a lesson that I learned from your birth.

Julie’s lesson 

So during this process, I was just at home and as Kay said, sending text messages, and taking phone calls from them, and helping them through labor with different position ideas, and different things to do and try, and how to help them through the induction process, and all those things. And so I’m just hanging out, waiting, and checking in if I haven’t heard after so long. And then the last I had heard, her husband had sent me a text message asking about a different position because baby wasn’t engaging. I am super cool about that. I know all these positions. I sent them a couple of ideas and I am like, “Okay. If this doesn’t work, then call me. I know a be-all-end-all to baby engagement that I’ve only seen not work one time in my entire doula career.”

And so I was just waiting, expecting them to say, “Oh yeah! Baby is engaged,” or “Okay, we need to try the one more thing.” But I get a text message from her husband saying, “Baby’s heart rate is not doing so great. We are going into a Cesarean. We are at peace with it.” It completely caught me off guard. I was like, “Oh my gosh. What is going on? I started crying to my husband.” I am like, “Oh my gosh. These poor clients. Their birth ended in a Cesarean” because I just made all these assumptions that you were not okay with it because most of the time when people try for a VBAC, they feel at least some degree of sadness at the loss of that birth experience. 

And so I text back and I’m like, “Okay. If you are confident in that decision, I support you. Let me know if you have any questions,” and then her husband was like, “All right. Pictures are coming next.” SoI could see a picture of the baby and I am like, “Okay well, I guess that’s it. It’s settled.” And so I was with my husband just watching shows. It was in the middle of the night. We were watching shows waiting to hear the word and I wanted to be able to chat with her for a little bit afterward while she was in the recovery room. I remember when I finally got the call, my doula-self was ready. I was ready to help her cope through the loss of this birth experience that she wanted so badly because that’s what we do as doulas. We help people cope through hard things sometimes. 

Kay, you called me and we were talking. I could hear a little baby cooing in the background and there was hustle and bustle in the room. After you had talked to me for a little while, I was like, “Okay well, I will let you go for tonight. We will talk more tomorrow, but I just want you to know that it’s okay to be so excited that you have a happy, healthy baby right now, but also, it’s okay to feel sad about the loss of that VBAC experience that you wanted and worked so hard for,” because that is what I usually tell people if they end up in a repeat Cesarean. I am like, “It’s okay to feel both of those feelings,” trying to bring this peace to her and say, “It’s okay to feel all of the things. We need to feel them.” I will never forget the words that you said to me. You said, “Okay. I will keep that in mind for later, but right now, I am just on cloud nine.”

You could tell you were smiling. You were so happy. God was with you through your whole journey. You were prepared. You made all the right decisions and knowing more about what happened now, it’s easier for me to look back and see that. Maybe I would have said different things if I was actually there with you in person, but it took me off guard for a little bit. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” 

Even as doulas-- Meagan, I am sure you are still learning too. Every birth, we take something with us and it helps us be a little bit better of a doula for the next person that we support. That’s one thing I’m never going to forget is that, and you’re probably the first client I’ve ever had that’s actually said that to me fresh out of the Cesarean. Baby was less than an hour old and you were so confident that you were supported, that you tried your best, and that you were educated, and you made all the right choices that all you were was on cloud nine and that you could look back at your birth so instantly with such happiness. I mean, the conversation has been the same since we have chatted ever since then. It was just a really good thing for you to say that to me because sometimes we just make assumptions about how people feel about their births or how they respond based on other people that we have seen in similar situations.

Meagan: Well, and I think that sometimes as a doula, especially doulas who have had Cesareans and then gone on to VBAC or haven’t gone and know the passion behind wanting to go on and have a VBAC sometimes can reflect a little bit more in their own experience of how they feel as a doula because they knew that you wanted that, right? So the hardest thing, and this is maybe a message for birth workers. 

As Julie was saying, you gave this lesson to her. For birth workers, we have to remember not to assume that someone else is going to feel the way we felt about our own birth because I feel like there are sometimes too where I have had a client go in for an induction and I was super bummed for them, but at the same time, they were completely content with it because again, in the end, they look back and they were like, “I did everything and this is the way it happened. I chose this and I feel good about this. I feel confident about this.” And as birth workers, we have to be okay to be confident with them as well and be okay with their outcome.

Julie: Yeah. I think that’s maybe one of the hardest parts about being a doula is we get so emotionally invested when working with all of our clients, and then when we see clients go through the process of an unplanned Cesarean, no matter if it’s a VBAC or a CBAC or just a first initial Cesarean, I think we always start mourning the loss for them-- and not always, maybe, but at least for me, I have to really check my headspace to make sure that I don’t start making assumptions about how they feel about their birth before they tell me how they feel about their birth. 

I totally did that with you, Kay. I totally just had my speech all ready to go. I was getting ready for when you were going to call me and it was just like-- you know, we all learn lessons along the way, and sometimes we have to re-learn these lessons and re-learn these lessons. That was just very valuable to me that you said that. I will never forget it and the happiness in your voice. I hung up the phone after talking with you and I looked at my husband. I was still crying a little bit because I was so sad for you. But why was I sad for you when you were so happy? I told my husband-- he was like, “How did the call go?” I was like, “Well, she’s really excited and happy. So I guess I am really excited and happy too for her.”

It was just such an interesting change of feelings. Maybe that’s just the thing that comes with virtual doula support is that we help, and support, and send information, and call, and answer questions just as if you were to do it in person, but because we are not there sensing the emotions and feelings of things, I pulled in my own emotions. I will remember that conversation after your birth for the rest of my life probably.

Kay: But it’s interesting too because I have been on both sides of it. I have had a vaginal birth and I had a C-section after not expecting to have a C-section in any way, shape, or form, and then with that C-section, I had all those feelings that you are referring to. I had the disappointment and the “what if.” What if I tried this? What if I tried this? And then having this C-section, because it was my own because I dictated it, the nurses and the doctors, not the doctors, the nurses-- I think they were disappointed when I decided for a C-section, but I knew it was the right decision. 

We had those instincts. We prayed about it. We had that gut intuition and that is completely why I felt so in control because I know if I kept going that I could have been in a dangerous situation. My gut was just telling me, “This is not the right choice.” And because I had that, my husband had it, it was my plan. It was nobody else’s plan except mine, where the first one, I was not in control. So I think it is so normal, but I feel like there should also be a, “your Cesareans can be beautiful too” because this was such a beautiful, beautiful experience. 

Even though you train for it, it can still be so peaceful, and so I will look back on this birth with nothing but happy memories because I did my best. I trained. I tried everything and this was the path that I was meant to take. I am totally, so at peace with it and I absolutely love it. I feel that Cesarean pride.

Julie: I love that you said that. I love how you said that this was your plan. This was not anybody else’s plan. Even though it wasn’t plan A, it was still your plan because you had taken the time to make a plan C and you had taken the time to get educated and trust your intuition. You really trusted and honored that instinct and what you needed to do. So I just love that, that this was your plan. It was nobody else’s plan and I think that’s really important.

Q&A

Well, I think we have a couple of questions to ask you. We have been forgetting to ask questions, Meagan. Last week when we recorded five episodes, I don’t think we asked questions in a single one.

Meagan: Oh, I know.

Julie: So it’s been a while.

Meagan: I know. I know.

Julie: But I remembered this time. Do you want to ask them?

Meagan: Yes, sure. So what is your best tip for someone preparing for a VBAC?

Kay: Preparing for a VBAC, I would say to make plans A, B, and C. I know it is something we said over and over again, but to have all of those plans, and know that each one of them can be absolutely beautiful, and to kind of revel in each of those plans. If A happens, awesome. Euphoric. If B happens, it’s also euphoric and if C happens, it can also be euphoric if you have this, this, and this in place. 

And to figure out what is going to be important for you. So I think it’s just as important to listen to all of those beautiful VBAC stories as it is to listen to beautiful CBAC stories because it does not have to be the trauma that most of us have experienced in our first C-section. It can be different. That would be my advice.

Meagan: I love that.

Julie: Love it.

Meagan: I love it. I also know listening to CBAC stories, or uterine rupture stories, some of the harder stories that we share on here can be hard to hear because it can be something that you are like, “Wait, no. That is not what I want to hear because I don’t even want to imagine myself going there.”

Kay: Right.

Meagan: But there’s so much you can learn with those stories. So I try to encourage people to find a space for that. That might take time, but find a space for it because I think you will be pleasantly surprised when you listen. You learn more and you will feel more in control at the end.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Who is behind the voice of our podcast introduction? Who edits The VBAC Link podcast episodes? Meet Brian Albers, The VBAC Link’s secret weapon! 

Listen to this episode to find out why Brian has earned this title time and time again. We also learn some fun secrets and ask him some of your burning questions. But in all seriousness, we are SO grateful for all Brian does for us. He is a quality, genuine guy that they just don’t make these days anymore!  

 

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

The VBAC Link Community on Facebook

The VBAC Link Shop

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: All right, you guys. Guess what? This is an episode that I know you guys have all been waiting for since we posted a picture of our secret weapon wearing, “Don’t be all up in my perineum.” If you haven’t seen the post, go scroll back in our Instagram. We have Brian, who is our secret weapon. Julie started calling him that, I don’t know, forever ago.

Julie: Because he is.

Meagan: He really is. He has proven it. So we today are going to be recording an episode about Brian. Brian is the voice of our intro on our podcast. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: We have a review, and Julie is the best review reader. We all know this. I can’t read.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Meagan: She can. So Julie, go ahead and read your review. I hope you picked a big one. I think strategically, you probably pick the big ones knowing that I can’t read them.

Julie: Yeah. That’s exactly what I do, actually. I pick the bigger ones and leave the smaller ones for you.

Meagan: I always hope. I always hope.

Julie: We have so many. I don’t even think we are going to get through them all, so I am trying to pick more recent ones because I know that you pick older ones and so I feel like maybe we have a little bit of both worlds in our review reading. All right. This review is from Apple Podcasts and it’s from carrie.vic so we can totally Facebook stalk her if necessary.

Her title is, “OMG, the best VBAC resource out there” and then she says, “Thank you so much to Julie and Meagan for this podcast! I began listening to it right after my C-section in August 2018. Then, when I found out I was pregnant in June 2020, I re-listened to every episode. 

So. Much. Information. So much positivity and hope. I had my VBAC on 02/11”

That was just this year.

“and I don’t think I could have done it without The VBAC Link. This podcast helped me ensure I had the most supportive birth team and provider, provided so much useful information, and all of these mamas made me truly believe in my capability to do this!

“Thank you, thank you, thank you a million! Sending so much love to all you mamas out there! ❤️”

I love the heart emojis. I love the reviews. I love carrie.vic from Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much and congratulations on your VBAC.

Meagan: Yay. Congrats, congrats. I love when we hear the reviews and we don’t have to go stalk them. So if you leave a review or if you have left us a review and then gone on to have your baby, let us know how things are going because we kind of stalk you on Facebook, not on Facebook Facebook but on our Facebook community to see because we love following up and hearing about the stories. So leave us a review and if you have already had your baby, drop us an email or tag us on Facebook and let us know.

Julie: Yeah, because we really need closure on these things. Like the ones from last year that you read, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, they had their baby eight months ago. I don’t know what happened.” Closure is always good.

Meagan: Okay, without further ado, we are going to have Brian give us the intro.

Brian: All right, here comes the music. 

You are tuned into The VBAC Link podcast with Julie Francom and Meagan Heaton, VBAC moms, doulas, and educators here to help you get inspired for birth after having had a C-section. Together they have created a robust VBAC preparation course, along with this uplifting podcast, for women who are preparing for their VBAC. 

Although these episodes are VBAC specific, they encourage expectant moms to listen and educate themselves on how to avoid a Cesarean from the get-go. The purpose of this podcast is to educate and inform. It is not meant to replace advice from any other qualified medical professional. Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan after we hear from today’s sponsor.

Julie: “Here are your hosts, Julie and Meagan”

Meagan: Yay. I love it.

Julie: I love it. Brian is amazing. I call him “our secret weapon” because he is our very first person that we ever paid to do anything from The VBAC Link. He literally saved my life because when we first started, I was editing our podcast episodes using a free program that I downloaded, and every Tuesday night I would be in a rush trying to get-- I’d spend two hours editing, and trying to crop out “um’s” everywhere, and putting the intro and the exit there, and get it in the right spot, and get it uploaded, and get everything posted in time for our Wednesday podcast runs, and then Meagan connected us with Brian.

Meagan, you’re going to have to tell the story because I don’t even remember how you guys met. But then he literally saved two hours of my week and that’s why he is our secret weapon. But not only that, he is our video guy. He records the videos for our courses and we also give him a whole bunch of random audio/video stuff to do here and there for us. So he is called “our secret weapon” because he saved our lives and we want to keep him nice, quietly tucked away in our own little package so nobody else can use him because he is ours.

Meagan: Brian, you belong to us.

Brian: Yep.

Julie: We will lock you in a dungeon with a computer and some audio equipment just in case you ever decide you want to stop editing.

Brian: And honestly Julie, what you described Julie, just cutting out the um’s-- that’s pretty much what I do. That’s the bulk of it because there are so many, really.

Julie: Yeah, because me and Meagan don’t know how to not say “um.”

Brian: Well, I mean, everybody says “um”.

Julie: I know.

Brian: It’s just a natural, normal part of speaking, but when you’re trying to present it as a podcast, you want to sound as pro as you can. And cutting out those “um’s” is working towards that goal.

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: Yeah, and then not saying “um” is another step.

Brian: Yeah.

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: Maybe when we are grown up we will stop saying “um”.

Meagan: It’s seriously one of the most, it’s one of the hardest things for me. What’s funny though is I don’t recognize myself saying “um” or “uhh” but I totally recognize anybody else saying “um”. I’m like, “Oh my gosh that person says--” like I recognize “um’s” more, but in myself, I don’t. I don’t know why that’s a problem.

Julie: Until Brian sends us a message that says, “You guys are saying ‘um’ a lot more than usual. Just pay attention.”

Meagan: “Can you guys drop the ‘um’s?”

Julie: And then we are texting each other during podcast episodes and saying, “Oh my gosh I am saying ‘um’ so much.” No, but I have learned that I replace that with “so”.

Brian: Uh-huh, or “and”.

Julie: Yeah. And “and”. Yeah, and “so”. That’s awesome.

Brian: And that’s okay. That’s okay too.

Julie: Yeah. So let’s get going. Um, we-- see? There I did. Oh my gosh, I just said it.

Brian: Yep.

Julie: You’ll probably have to edit that out.

Brian: I’ll leave that one in.

Julie: Yeah, you can leave that one in because, um-- oh my gosh. Now I am going to be so hyperaware. Oh, this is not going to go well.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay, so I was just reflecting back on how I got a hold of Brian and I feel like-- okay. So I had a client who, crazy enough, yeah. Anyway. So I had a client and he does video and then his wife does sound. I asked her, I sent her a text or something. I was like, “Hey, do you know about anybody or do you know anybody?” And she was like, “Yeah.” I can’t remember if she sent Brian to me directly or if she sent me to someone else, but I’m pretty sure she sent--

Brian: You’re talking about Michaela, right?

Meagan: Michaela, yeah.

Brian: Yeah.

Meagan: Michaela knew you, right? I thought she sent me directly to you. She was like, “Yeah. I know someone.”

Brian: Yeah, because I work at the NPR station here in Salt Lake City and Michaela does as well. She is a weekender and that’s how I know her. She still does work there and I still do work there so we still do know each other.

Meagan: Yes, yes.

Brian: And so she approached me and she asked me if I was interested in helping out some friends of hers start a podcast or do a podcast or something. I don’t know if she just didn’t have the details or just didn’t give me the details, but I had no idea what anything was about. I just knew it was something about audio editing and a podcast and I said, “Yeah, sure.” 

I love doing audio and I love helping people if I can pursue what they want to pursue. If I can help out, I will help out. Especially when it comes out to audio stuff because I’ve been doing audio forever. And so I said, “Yeah. Throw them at me. Give them my email. Whatever happens, happens.” And that just got the ball rolling.

Julie: And then you became our secret weapon.

Meagan: Yeah. She sent me your email. That’s right. I was like, “I was pretty sure it was direct.” And then I sent it to you. I remember emailing you and it was such a big step for Julie and I because Julie was our editor before and she did a wonderful job, but she was tired of it. And we are not professional. We are not professional. It’s not easy.

Julie: It was so much work. Oh, well and Brian can edit a podcast episode in 30 minutes that takes me two hours to do.

Meagan: Unless we say “um” all the time and then it’s two hours. But yeah. But no, it was just such, I don’t know. The stars aligned so perfectly. I will forever be grateful for her and we are forever grateful for you, Brian, and we are so excited that you are with us.

Brian: And that was when? That was the fall of 2018?

Meagan: Two years, mhmm.

Julie: Yeah. Right about that.

Brian: And you hadn’t done too many episodes before I came on board, right?

Julie: I think we were 30 episodes in.

Meagan: I was going to say, I think it was 30 or 40.

Brian: Wow.

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: We really hadn’t done that many and they were a mess.

Julie: Brian was like, “You guys really need to find a studio and I actually know one that might be available.”

Meagan: Yeah. He’s like, “You need to have better audio.” So it’s just been so awesome and then we were like, “Oh, we are going to do this online course. Hey Brian, do you know how-to video?” “Yeah.”

Brian: “Yeah.”

Meagan: And you guys, he spent an entire Sunday--

Julie: It was like, 10 hours.

Meagan: Yeah. With us in an empty duplex sitting there as we were just talking about-- like seriously, yeah. It was amazing and yeah. I am so grateful for you.

Brian: And actually, videoing is the easy part. It’s all the editing and post-production that takes forever.

Julie: And so you know so much about birth, and Cesareans, and VBAC--

Brian: And do you want to know? The funny thing is when I started editing the podcast, I, first of all, didn’t know it was a birth thing.

(Meagan and Julie laughing)

It was just a podcast. Seriously, I had no idea--

Meagan: He didn’t know.

Brian: --what it was about until I heard the first audio. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a VBAC was. I had no idea what a doula was. I had to look that stuff up.

Julie: And now you know way more than you ever thought you would know about birth.

Brian: Oh, I know way more than I thought I would ever know.

Julie: Probably way more than you would ever care to know.

Meagan: You could be a doula, Brian.

Julie: I want to read your bio really fast.

Brian: Oh, go for it.

Julie: You wrote out a really well-thought-out bio and I want to read it because I think it is transitioning to what we are talking about right now, but I want you guys to know a little bit more about Brian and then we can talk some more, and share some really embarrassing stories, and all that fun stuff.

But Brian is a SoCal native which-- I did not know that about you. Meagan probably did. Meagan is a bigger people person than I am. But you moved to Salt Lake City in the summer of 2015. You are a lifelong musician and we have seen some of your stuff on YouTube. It’s pretty amazing. You have been an audio engineer since the early 90s. You worked in radio, big-time nationally syndicated stuff as well as small-time local stuff as an engineer and on-air host since the mid-90s. He is currently an on-air host at 90.1 KUER NPR Utah, headquartered in Salt Lake City, heard throughout Utah, and video editor in marketing at Salt Lake community college. I did not know that either.

You run Humorless Productions. That’s his business name. Remote audio, video recording, and post-production, primarily concert recordings, primarily noisy undergroundy, aggressive, electronic music. Obviously, not recording too many concerts these days. You are an avid skier. I did know that. Avid road bicyclist-- also knew that, and hard-core introvert. Also knew that.

And let me tell you, people, Brian‘s never married and has no kids. Brian is such-- this is why I call him “our secret weapon”, right? He literally edits a birth podcast. He has never had kids. He has never seen somebody or helped somebody have a baby, but he is sitting over here being the biggest trooper for us. He came to our first birthday party and took pictures with us in our little made-up photo booth. He is just always so willing to help out and is just so-- I don’t know. I just think you are a good-quality, genuine guy. They just don’t make people like you anymore. I don’t know if that makes sense.

Brian: Well, if you think about it though, if you put yourself in my position, I mean, I don’t really have to know anything about birth specifically. I’m just doing the audio.

Julie: That’s true.

Brian: You know? I just pull it up on my computer and put it in my editing program and start editing. At that point it’s not about birth, it’s about audio and it’s about making the people sound good.

Julie: Which you do a great job of.

Brian: So the podcast could be about anything and I’m still going to do the same process.

Meagan: Right.

Julie: Yes.

Meagan: But at the same time, you are so willing to go the extra mile to do so many other things. In fact, even wearing your “Don’t get all up in my perineum” shirt.

Julie: “Don’t be all up in my perineum.”

Brian: The perineum shirt.

Julie: Actually, can we talk about that shirt? I’m going to have that available in our VBAC Link shop. So if you go to thevbaclink.com/shop, you can see exactly what we are talking about and buy your own. “Don’t be all up in my perineum” shirt straight from our VBAC shop. So by the time this episode airs, I will have it up there and live for you. I am pretty sure we can include a picture of Brian rocking it. In fact, that might just be our main product image.

Meagan: Yes. Yes. I love it. Okay so, Brian. What got you into-- I mean, you’ve been doing this for such a long time. What sparked your interest in this? Like as a kid, what did you do as a kid? Did you want to do stuff like this as a kid? Like in editing and audio and video and all that?

Brian: No, I mean, as a kid, like as a teenager, I would ride my bike around the neighborhood or ride my bike just as much as I could, so that’s always been a lifelong thing. I started playing guitar at 12 or 13 years old and that pretty much instantly became my main focus forever. I wasn’t good at it instantly. I wasn’t a prodigy, but I got fairly good at it in some short amount of time. I was sort of a natural musician. It was just a language that I understood.

Meagan: Yeah, it just came to you.

Brian: It just kept going and going from there. I was in bands back in the 80s which-- we didn’t go anywhere. We didn’t record anything. But I was always playing and I was always getting better. Eventually, the first thing I did out of high school was, I went to a guitar school in Hollywood. It’s the premier West Coast guitar school via Musicians Institute and the Guitar Institute of Technology. 

I graduated in 1990 and from there, that’s what got me interested in audio. In playing guitar, and playing with bands, and playing with other people and recording as well, I was interested to know how exactly. You know, you mic up a guitar and why does it sound different if you put the mic here or if you put the mic here? Or if you use this microphone or that microphone? I was interested in that sort of stuff. I just dove into it headfirst while all along being a musician, but also being interested in audio.

Once I eventually went to proper college, I was a music major at first, but then I switched to audio engineering and graduated as an audio engineering major. That was in the mid-90s. That’s when I started in radio. I eventually did my own music shows in LA and I was an engineer for some big radio shows in LA. It all just came together and that’s how it’s been since then.

Meagan: That’s awesome. I didn’t know that about you.

Julie: Yeah. You’re pretty good at it. You’ve got a natural talent.

Meagan: Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Julie: Alright.

Brian: Isn’t that what they say about kids? Because I’m a middle kid. I have an older brother and a younger brother.

Julie: Aw, that makes sense too.

Brian: Isn’t the middle kid supposed to be the artsy one?

Meagan: You know, my middle kid is. She is very artsy. I mean she seriously, she was 18 months old and I remember we were in this group of people and there were some coloring books. She sat down and started coloring and this lady was like, “Oh my gosh” because she was color blending and coloring in the lines so perfectly. She was like, “What in the deal?” 

And then now, she can just look at something and she just draws it. And she’s like, “Look, this is--”. The other day, she brought home-- it was Cat in the Hat, Dr. Seuss’s birthday, or whatever, and she brings me this Cat in the Hat picture. I am like, “Oh my gosh.” She is so good that way, and then she is really good in the arts like dance, and music, and things like that. She is really good at the piano and she is six. So, yeah. I would say my middle kid is good at it.

Brian: Cool.

Julie: I have two middle kids and I would say my third is definitely the more artsy one. But again, they are three, four, six, and seven. My seven-year-old has really mild cerebral palsy so he has always hated handwriting. He’s always hated coloring because it’s hard for him because of his right hand. It’s his right side that is affected. He’s not severely disabled or anything. It’s really, really mild cerebral palsy, but it affects his right extremities and so he is forced to be left-handed when his brain operates in a right-handed way. He’s never been good at that type of thing. I wonder if that’s true. I don’t know. We will see. We will see as my kids get older I suppose.

Meagan: So tell us something else unique that no one would know about you that we don’t even know.

Julie: Yeah. Behind the scenes.

Brian: About me?

Meagan: Yeah, because you are. Like we said, you are just like this secret weapon. You just have all of these hidden talents. What is something that you-- I don’t know. What is something secret?

Brian: Well, I have a good one. I don’t know if I have told you before, but I lived-- so I am from Southern California. That’s what I say. That is the short answer. But the long answer is I was born in San Diego and I grew up in San Diego. But I lived all of my adult life in LA and so LA feels more like my home, which sounds sort of weird than San Diego, but if you press me, if you asked me where my home city is, I will say LA. But then, I also moved to Austria twice.

Julie: What?

Brian: Yeah. I lived there for most of 2005 and then I moved back to LA, and then I moved back to Austria from late 2009 to late 2010, so another year there for no reason. It wasn’t a work thing. It wasn’t for anything, I just wanted to live there. So twice, I sold all my stuff and quit all my jobs, and moved.

Meagan: Oh my gosh.

Julie: Oh, to be free.

Meagan: That’s amazing. That’s amazing.

Brian: Yeah. I didn’t really know the language too much. I mean, I took some classes beforehand just so I was a little bit familiar, but I went over there and that’s actually where Humorless Productions started my mobile audio/video recording system. That’s where I really cut my teeth because there were so many more shows over there at that time that I could record as opposed to LA, at least for the music that I was interested in recording. 

And so I went over there, and I brought some equipment, and I would record all sorts of shows every month. It wasn’t easy, but I worked out a system. It’s evolved over the years and now I have a really good system.

Actually, the first time I lived in Austria was in Vienna. The second time I lived there was Linz, which is a smaller town about an hour and a half west of Vienna. But if you really asked me if there’s anywhere in the world that feels more like home than anything else, I would say it’s Austria.

Meagan: Really?

Brian: Yeah. I have five more friends even today in Austria than I do in the States.

Meagan: Wow.

Julie: That is super cool.

Brian: Yeah.

Julie: Gosh, I used to travel so much when I was single. I guess maybe it was because I was in the military. I lived in a couple of different places and then once or twice a year before I got married, I would just travel somewhere on a plane. I was just talking to Nick the other night about this and I just miss that so much. You know, you get married, and you have kids, and you’re just stuck forever until your kids get old enough to travel with you. I love that.

Brian: And actually when I was over there, I wasn’t really intent on traveling or going around, but that just ended up where the shows were that I would record. Vienna is fairly centrally located, so I would hop on a train and go up to Prague, or Budapest, or to Venice, or to Zurich, or to Munich, or to Berlin, or wherever. So it was all sorts of fun.

Meagan: That’s awesome. So cool. Yep. I did not know that.

Julie: Yeah. I did not know that either.

Q&A

Meagan: So I posted on our Instagram what questions people have for you and a couple have come in. Can I ask them to you?

Julie: Yeah.

Brian: Yeah.

Meagan: One, what is the most interesting thing you have learned from this podcast?

Brian: I’ve learned all sorts of stuff. What’s the most interesting thing? I don’t know the most interesting thing.

Meagan: What’s something that stands out to you that you’ve learned? Obviously, you learned what a VBAC is in general.

Brian: Yes, in general.

Julie: Maybe if somebody asked you, what is The VBAC Link? What would you say?

Brian: Well, here’s the thing. For anybody listening, Julie and Meagan don’t necessarily want you to have a VBAC. They want you to have the birth that you want. If you want a Cesarean, that’s super great. More power to you. The thing is, you’re going to learn stuff. Even if you do a Cesarean, you will learn stuff for your pregnancy that will benefit you if you listen to this podcast. If you are a first-time mother, you will benefit. You will learn stuff from this podcast. It doesn’t matter if you have never had a Cesarean, doesn’t matter if you have never had a vaginal birth. There is just so much good information that you will learn in this podcast.

Meagan: I would agree. So another question is, do you share what you have learned with any expectant parents in your life?

Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. Thanks for that Brian. That was really nice of you to say. I really like that.

Brian: Yeah.

Meagan: That really was.

Julie: Thank you.

Meagan: So to me, Brian, you just answered it a little bit, right? Because that’s one of the most interesting things you have maybe learned, right? We’re pro VBAC, obviously. That’s why we are here and that’s why we created the course, and the podcast, and the blogs, and all of that jazz, but you nailed it. It’s not that we want you to have your VBAC. It’s that we want you to have the birth experience that you want, whether that be a VBAC or not. 

So I totally love that so much and that seems like the answer to me too. Maybe it’s not the most interesting, but it is something that you have definitely taken away and realized that through editing our podcast, that’s what we are here for. That is exactly what we are here for is to help these people get the birth that they desire no matter what that may look like to them.

Brian: And one other thing, it might sound like not the best way to say this, but a lot of these women who come on the podcast have learned lessons the hard way. They want to share their experiences of learning things the hard way so that other women don’t have to learn the hard way themselves. You know? You never ever want to say, “Well, I told you so I told you so,” but I think that’s one of the best things about this show is that women don’t have to go through all the trauma and all the pain that these other women have gone through, not unnecessarily. You know how birth goes. You never can plan it out 100%.

Julie: You know how birth goes now.

Brian: Yeah, more than I used to.

Meagan: Yeah, and I love that. Yeah. I don’t think it was saying it like that or anything. It’s true. We have all learned things in hard ways a lot of the time and that for sure was me with my second provider. I didn’t switch and I learned the hard way to follow my gut. I didn’t follow it the first time. I had to follow it the second time. I am glad that I did so I had the outcome and the experience that I had. So, yeah. I love that.

Do you share what you have learned through this podcast with expectant parents in your life? Do you have many expectant parents in your life?

Brian: Yeah, I would in a heartbeat. I have only had one friend who had a kid last year sometime in 2020 and I definitely recommended it to her when she was pregnant. I said, “Hey if you want to learn some stuff, listen to this podcast.” I don’t know what her plans were as far as her birth plans, but yeah. I said, “There is all sorts of stuff that you will learn listening to this podcast.”

Meagan: That’s awesome.

Brian: And she was a first-time mom.

Meagan: Yeah. I know, I think that’s something that is so interesting. A lot of the times it’s like, “Oh, I have had a VBAC so I don’t need to listen to that,” but really like you said, the first-time parents can almost learn just as much, if not more, than the people who have had Cesareans. Right?

Brian: I mean, how many episodes do you have on the pelvic floor? That is something that every first-time mother can use.

Julie: Yeah. At least four I think.

Meagan: Exactly. Mhmm. Yeah. And chiropractic care and working through your fear.

Brian: Yep.

Julie: And big babies.

Meagan: Oh yeah and big babies. Things like that and learning what is evidence-based. You know, we really focus on a lot of evidence-based. So yeah. I love that. I love that you referred us. Thank you for referring us. Do you know how her birth turned out?

Brian: I don’t know.

Meagan: Did she talk to you about that? Most people, probably not.

Brian: She hasn’t talked to me about it. I’ve seen pictures of the baby on Facebook and everything looks like it’s rolling just perfectly.

Meagan: Going really well. That’s awesome.

Brian: Yep.

Meagan: So you said you have two siblings. You are the middle child. Did you say, two brothers?

Brian: Yes.

Meagan: Are they married?

Brian: Both of them are. Older brother has no kids. Younger brother has two kids.

Meagan: Oh awesome. Do you know how his wife’s experiences went?

Brian: I don’t know. I haven’t asked her.

Meagan: Right. It’s not really something you probably would. I was just so curious if now--

Brian: I mean, I don’t think she’d hesitate to tell me if I asked because she’s an adult. I’m an adult. Yeah. But I just haven’t asked.

Meagan: Yeah. Okay, what other questions do you have, Julie? Or what else do you want to tell us, Brian?

Julie: I mean, I guess unless you want to embarrass us or roast us, I am so disappointed that there is not going to be any roasting. Throw us under the bus. What kind of dirt do you got on us? Tell the whole world.

Brian: I don’t have anything embarrassing about you. I have something embarrassing about me.

Julie: Okay sure.

Meagan: That’s the thing is, I want to know more about you. I want this episode to be about you. So tell everyone about you.

Brian: Well, here’s one thing. First of all, I said in my bio there that I am a hard-core introvert and that’s 100% true. This story sort of reflects that a little bit. It was when I first started the podcast. I think I had met Julie and I had met Meagan maybe once. I forget. Maybe not at all at this point, but one of you called me. I forget who it was. One of you called me on some afternoon and just wanted to say, “Hi. I just wanted to chat on the phone for a little bit.”

Julie: That was definitely Meagan. I don’t do things like that.

Meagan: Probably me.

Brian: I felt so bad because when you called me, I was at the main library and I couldn’t really take a call. I couldn’t really talk but I was totally whispering. I felt bad because I wanted to talk. I wanted to say “hi” but I was just not in a position where I could do any of that because there were people all around, and I was in the middle of something, and you can’t make a whole lot of noise in the library. And so the call ended up being 30 seconds. It was like, “Yeah, hi. Thanks. Okay. That’s cool. Okay, bye.” That was more impersonal than I usually am. You know, in the first place, I really am not the most personable person. I am not friendly at first.

Meagan: Really? I think you were. You were friendly.

Brian: But I felt bad about that call. But now we all hang out and we are all cool.

Meagan: Yes. Now it’s like, “Brian!”

Julie: COVID has put a serious cramp in our style. We don’t get to see you anymore.

Meagan: I know.

Brian: Yeah.

Julie: One day. One day, maybe.

Meagan: I know. COVID. Darn COVID. How’ve you been during COVID Brian? What have you been up to during it?

Brian: It’s been pretty great for me. I call it “working from home”, but at the same time I have been an essential worker at both of my jobs, and so I have really not changed my schedule at all too much. But it’s been great for me as an introvert because everybody else in the office doesn’t show up. They are all working from home.

Julie: So you get to be all alone and enjoy being an introvert.

Brian: So at both of my jobs, I pretty much have the whole building to myself. I can work at my own pace and I can play music as loud as I want. So it’s been okay.

Meagan: That’s good. Have you taken on any side projects or anything other than everything that we send you?

Julie: Everything that we send you?

Brian: Everything you throw at me? No, not really. I mean, I have all my regular stuff. I have about a dozen blogs and a dozen side projects. I have always a thousand music projects at home which don’t really have a deadline, so I have a mountain of stuff I can always work on. Sometimes I get to it. Sometimes I don’t. Right now it is ski season, so I am skiing every Saturday and every Sunday for months on end. I am working both my jobs quite a lot these days so I don’t have much time to do much of anything.

Meagan: Where do you like to ski, Brian?

Brian: Well, living here in Salt Lake City is pretty much the center of the universe. We have all sorts of good skiing here. I have one of those multi-resort passes so I have gone to Big Sky Montana this year. I’ve gone to Steamboat Springs this year. I actually have weekends coming up for both of those coming up shortly. I don’t think I will hit Jackson Hole this year. I don’t think I will hit Sun Valley this year. I don’t think I will hit Aspen this year, but I have skied all over the West Coast.

Meagan: What’s your favorite resort here in Utah? What resort would you suggest of someone to come to Utah and try out?

Julie: Megan is our skier. She probably wants to go catch you on the slopes one day.

Meagan: Yeah.

Brian: It’s probably not the one that most people would come up with as the number one resort here in Salt Lake City at least, but I go to Snow Basin.

Meagan: Snow Basin is awesome.

Julie: I like Snow Basin.

Meagan: That’s the first place I go.

Brian: At least for me. I was going to say, Snow Basin is better than any of the four here close to town. We have Snowbird, Alta, Brighton, Solitude. But Snow Basin is the one I prefer. Just got the best terrain for me. I am an advanced skier. I’ve been skiing my whole life.

↔Julie: You got a lot of that in SoCal huh? Just kidding. I’m sure the slopes were amazing in Austria.

Brian: Yeah. Yeah. I went skiing at St, Anton in the alps for a week. I skied Kitzbühel.

Julie: Aw, what a dream.

Brian: I skied the racecourse. The Hahnenkamm racecourse at Kitzbühel a week before the race. It was the day before they actually shut down the course for the race, which was totally cool. So I skied the Hahnenkamm in Austria.

Julie: That’s pretty cool.

Meagan: That’s super cool. I just started skiing this year.

Brian: Really?

Julie: Did you? For some reason, I thought you’ve been skiing for a while. I used to snowboard back in the day when I was cool and now I’m just a boring mom. I still have my snowboarding boots. I used to go to Brighton because it was the cheapest one. You could buy a half-day pass for only three of the lifts and it was only $40 instead of having to pay $90 for a full resort pass and so me and my friend would go up almost every weekend. 

We would go boarding and then we would go to the Porcupine Grill at the face of the canyon afterward and have nachos and hot chocolate which you wouldn’t think go together but after you go snowboarding, they definitely do go together.

Meagan: Oh wow. That’s in my neighborhood. Yeah. No, I actually begged to snowboard as a kid. I begged my mom every year. “Mom, I want to snowboard. I want to snowboard” and she was like, “Nope, nope, nope. Too dangerous. Too dangerous” and refused. 

And so this year for Christmas, my husband surprised us with also a multi-pass and said, “We are--” because you guys probably know I hate winter. I hate it. I hate it. I hate being cold. I like being at the pool feeling the sun and going outside on hikes, and sports, and obviously, as of last year I really took up cycling, and so I just like to be on my bike. So yeah. 

“We are going to make your winter better.” I will just tell you right now, if you haven’t ever skied before and you have snow In your area and you are listening, go skiing. It has changed my winter life completely. So I love that you ski, Brian. I always remember we would always try to get the podcast recorded at the end of December, or really November, so we weren’t driving in the winter and we would try to get enough through February because we were like, “We don’t want to drive to the studio in winter.”

Julie: The studio is an hour away from my house. In some of the snowstorms, it took me two hours to get home, and then there was that one time Meagan made me run out of gas on the freeway.

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: That was at midnight. It was awful.

Meagan: Yeah. We were recording with Brian. This is how much of a champ Brian is. He would literally stay with us at the studio until 11:30 PM. It’s insane what this man does for us. So we just are overly grateful for you. But I always remember he was telling me-- I swear there was two years or something that you were like, “Yeah. I’m going to Jackson this week.” And you would go and ski in Jackson. It’s one of my dreams to go and ski because we have a cabin there and now that I ski, I want to go skiing there because I have heard it’s amazing. I’ve also heard it’s pretty steep though. Is it steep?

Brian: Great one. Yeah. They have something for everybody.

Meagan: Good, because I am still not as advanced or confident. My husband says I am a really really good skier. I just lack confidence.

Julie: We need to get your confidence for skiing just like we want people to have their confidence for birth.

Meagan: I know. Okay, one last thing. What advice would you give to parents listening to the podcast? What do you feel is one of the most important takeaways from listening to all of the stories?

Brian: The biggest takeaway, and it’s the most obvious thing in the world. Birth is not easy. It is a monumental challenge. You can only be as prepared as you can. You could write down every single thing that you think is going to be a part of your birth plan and both Julie and Meagan will tell you there is not a single birth plan in the existence of the history of the universe that didn’t go 100% according to that birth plan. There’s always going to be some curveball in there that you were not prepared for. 

It’s impossible to prepare. You can’t prepare for absolutely everything. You can make a birth plan. You can make a backup plan. You can make a backup backup plan. The best thing you can do is just learn, research as much as you can, listen to the podcast, I don’t know what else to tell you. You can’t be prepared for everything but you can just try.

Julie: And trust your intuition.

Brian: Yeah. And the other thing is that-- I’m sure you’ve said this Meagan or Julie in the past on one of your episodes and I know it’s easy for me to say, “Well, keep this in mind.” But keep in mind that you are the mother. You are in charge. All the nurses, doctors, the providers-- they can tell you, “Okay. We need to do this,” and if that doesn’t line up with your birth plan, you say, “No, wait a second. I am doing it this way.”

Julie: Boom.

Brian: “I’m doing it this way.” You say it twice. You say it loud if you need to. “I’m doing it this way.” And if they say, “Okay. We’ll work with this.” It might get to a point where they say, “You know what? This is medically unsafe or medically unwise.” At that point, you say, “Okay. I will listen to what you have to say.” Otherwise, you are saying, “I’m doing it this way. I’m doing it my way.”

Meagan: Yeah. And it’s okay to say, “Why is this medically unwise?” It’s okay to question that.

Brian: Yeah. You are in charge. Not them.

Julie: Love it.

Meagan: Okay. You’re awesome, Brian. We love you. We love you so much.

Julie: Yep. Don’t ever go anywhere. We are going to keep you forever as our secret weapon. Our not-so-secret weapon anymore but I am still going to call you our secret weapon.

Brian: Awesome. Okay.

Meagan: If you ever decide to go back to Austria, are you still going to stay with us, or are you going to be like, “Peace out Meagan and Julie?”

Brian: Well I mean, we haven’t actually ever been in the same building for a year now.

Julie: Yeah, so I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter where he lives.

Brian: And we’re still making a podcast, so whether I’m in Salt Lake City or in Vienna, we can still work it out.

Julie: Boom.

Meagan: Perfect. All right, okay. Well, if you guys want to know more about Brian after this episode, message us and we will get your answers. And Brian, seriously, you are just a miracle in our lives. So, we love you. We appreciate you. Thanks for joining us today and telling us more that we didn’t know about you. And for the ski trips.

Brian: Totally awesome.

Julie: Wonderful.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Katherine’s unassisted VBA3C was truly redemptive in every way. After three unwanted Cesareans and a traumatic VBA3C, she decided that her fifth birth had to be different. When Katherine’s intuition told her that she was not getting the support she deserved, she knew that birthing unassisted was the path for her. Katherine worked hard to research, plan, and prepare as safely as possible. Her birth was intense, healing, and just what she needed. 

We talk about the risks and benefits of unassisted births and what things you can do to make sure you are making the best (and safest!) choice for your situation. While we will always advise birthing with a VBAC supportive provider over birthing unassisted, we also ALWAYS applaud women for following their intuition!  

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Good morning, Women of Strength. It is Women of Strength Wednesday and let me tell you, I couldn’t be happier to say that. I love that alliteration, Women of Strength Wednesday. I don’t know if that’s exactly an alliteration, but it feels really cool to me. Women of Strength Wednesday. No matter what day you are listening to this on, this podcast was released on Wednesday and so you can proudly be a part of Women of Strength Wednesday.

We have a really, really, cool, cool, cool story to share with you today. We have Katherine with us. She has five kids. She had three Cesareans and then two VBACs. Her first VBAC was a traumatic and really hard experience for her and her second VBAC after three Cesareans was a planned, unassisted birth. And so, we are going to talk about all those things. We’re going to talk about when you might need to consider an unassisted birth and how to do that safely, although we always recommend first if you can possibly find a supportive provider to support you in your VBAC, we always are going to recommend that first. But we realize that that’s not possible in every area and so we want to talk about it instead of going into an unassisted birth irresponsibly, let’s talk about options. We’ll go over the risks. We will talk about how to do it responsibly if you find yourself in that position. 

Review of the Week

Katherine’s going to share her story with us, but before we share her story and before we get to meet sweet Katherine, Meagan has a Review of the Week for us.

Meagan: Yes I do. I was scrolling through reading and I was like, “Oh, I totally want to show this one, and then we like to show who it is from. I scrolled over and guess who it’s from? It’s from Paige.

Julie: Our Paige?

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: Aww.

Meagan: Yeah. I’m excited to read this. So the subject is “Best birth podcast in all the land.”

Julie: She’s so sweet.

Meagan: And I love that. I was like, “That is the cutest.” It says, “The VBAC Link is THE most empowering space on the internet. The birth prep content combined with the safe, beautiful sisterhood and support is truly unmatched anywhere else. I have prepped twice for a VBAC-- once before The VBAC Link existed and the other having podcasts in my ear multiple times a day every day during my pregnancy. The transformation I was able to have physically from doing the bodywork they recommend and in my heart and soul has changed me forever.

“Julie and Meagan become your virtual doulas. They hold space for YOUR story and stay with you every step of the way. I can’t express enough what a catalyst their podcast was for me to find my strength, find my voice, listen to my intuition, and have the confidence to completely throw myself into a journey without a guaranteed outcome. I didn’t get my VBAC or my VBA2C, but The VBAC Link gave me so much more than the natural birth I hoped for. Forever and ever grateful for these two women. For their hearts. For their mission. For this safe and uplifting community in a world that has never needed it more.”

That gave me chills.

Julie: Oh my gosh, Paige. You’re the best.

Meagan: Seriously.

Julie: She’s going to be transcribing this.

Meagan: As you transcribe, can you say, “I am the best”?

Julie: Give yourself a high-five from us because we love that review. I just wish I could be a fly on the wall when you are transcribing this episode so I can see your reaction to us reading your review on the podcast and how much we loved it.

Meagan: I know. It’s beautiful. Yes and we love reviews so if you haven’t yet, please drop a review. We have tons of podcasts that we have to record and we love to read reviews of the podcast on each recording. So leave us a review. No matter where it is, just drop it even if it is just a message. Message us and say, “Put this on your review.” We would love it.

Julie: We just read one of those the other day.

Meagan: Yes we did.

Julie: An email review. We never share email, instant messenger, or direct messages without asking permission first, but if you leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Google Podcasts or Google, just regular old Google, it’s free game. So you’re probably going to get your review read on the podcast one day. We are really excited about that. The warm and fuzzies really keep us going and we are grateful for our sweet Paige for giving us that wonderful review.

Katherine’s story

Julie: All right, all right. Now it is time for Katherine. We are really, really, really excited for her to share her experiences with us. She lives in Georgia. In Georgia and other states in the south like Florida, Louisiana, and Alabama, the Cesarean rates are really high. The VBAC rates are really, really low and it’s hard to find a truly supportive VBAC provider. There are a few gems here and there, but you’re a lot more limited in your options there than you would be in some other parts of the areas just because of legal guidelines, VBAC policies, and de facto VBAC bans where the hospital will allow VBAC, but no providers will support you through a VBAC or they are really barely tolerant best. 

And so, Katherine is going to share her journey with us navigating through all of that in the south and then she’s going to talk about her to VBAC after three Cesareans, one in hospital and one unassisted. Before I just start rambling on anymore, I’m going to turn it over to Katherine.

Katherine: Okay. I do want to add something. So I am in Georgia currently, but I was born in Virginia where I had my first two kids and my husband is military, so we moved to California and we had our third, and then our last two were in Georgia. So it’s going to be kind of all over the place.

Julie: You’ll fit right in.

Katherine: Yeah. My first two, I was 17 turning 18 with my first and like a lot of people on The VBAC Link podcast talk about, at that age, you don’t know a lot. No one tells you anything. You just think about the movies and you think, “It’s just going to happen like this,” and you don’t realize that there is so much that goes into it. So where my story goes is, I didn’t actually see a provider until I was 19 weeks. I found out instantly we were having a girl and had my first obstetric abuse type thing where a doctor called me “stupid” because I didn’t want to get the genetic testing done.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Katherine: Fast forward towards Christmastime when I was 36 weeks, I ended up moving back home because I was in college at the time. I moved back home and I switched to a practice that was well known around us and everyone heard good things. I was born at the hospital, all the classic stuff. I wanted to see as many providers as I could, but they kept scheduling me with the same lady. My daughter was breech all the time, essentially. Every appointment she was, but I kept telling them that she would flip at night. I felt it. I knew she was flipping every night and then for some reason in my morning appointment, she would be butt down again. 

And so, at my 38-week appointment, I remember talking with the doctor and I really didn’t like this lady, but that’s all put aside. She told me that I could have an ECV, but I asked her what was her honest opinion on it, and, of course, she gave me her honest opinion which is that it is really risky and it might end up in a C-section anyways.

So with that being said, my mom had three C-sections, I am her VBAC baby, but because of her traumatic experience, she ended up having more C-sections. All I was told is, “Oh well, just have the C-section. It is okay.” I showed up at 39+4 to the hospital. You know, a scheduled Cesarean. They didn’t check her position. We had a C-section and one of the things I can clearly remember is the doctor saying, “This baby isn’t breech.” And so, there’s that. 

I had an unnecessary C-section. I didn’t know I could ask for an ultrasound. Didn’t know it was supposed to be done. I just thought, “They know what they’re doing.” Recovery for that was really easy, nothing traumatic. I didn’t even really think about the trauma of it until years later.

My second C-section was when I was 20 right before I turned 21. It was with my son. Normal pregnancy, everything was great. I wanted a VBAC but didn’t know a lot. My mom was constantly in my ear about how traumatic her VBAC was. I still wanted it. I got to my 39-week appointment and I was still high and closed. I still didn’t know a lot about birth and I remember asking if I could go another weekend. They were perfectly fine with it and then for some reason, they ended up calling me that night with C-section dates for that week.

My then-boyfriend, now-husband was going back to school and I didn’t want to do it by myself, so at 40 weeks exactly, we had another C-section. Probably the best C-section I’ve ever had. They made me feel like a person and not like someone just laying there on a table. The anesthesiologist got awesome pictures of my son. It was just a really good experience. 

Recovery was rough. But I feel like I guess, I don’t know. It just came and went. You know? It was normal, kind of rough. I remember getting shots that were in my shoulders, I don’t know how they did it. It just made my shoulders really stiff, so the first week of my son’s life was rough because I couldn’t really pick him up.

But going past that, my next C-section was when I was 23. It was 2016. No, 22. I don’t know. But with him, I really wanted a VBAC after two Cesareans. I was dead set on it. It was going to happen. I traveled 45 minutes to a provider who backed me up, didn’t talk about C-sections until well, you know. She wasn’t supposed to talk about C-sections until 42 weeks, but we ended up hitting a speed bump at 40 weeks. 

But before that at 37 weeks, he flipped to breech. 38 he flipped back on his own and then at 40 weeks he had severe decreased fetal movement. Our appointment came and we tried to do a non-stress test and he was really non-reactive on it. We had a serious talk about what we should do and how we should proceed. I was really scared because even though he had a heartbeat and he was doing fine, he wasn’t moving like he was supposed to and I just decided that a C-section would probably be best.

We had it the next day at 12. He was born perfectly fine. He had a double nuchal cord which sounds scary, but knowing that it happens in 30% of births, they said, makes it seem not as bad and that it is normal. So yeah, that happened. I had a really bad recovery, postpartum depression. I remember in my six-week check-up, my doctor who did my C-section was really supportive of me and she told me that the day before she had a VBAC after three Cesareans. She assisted one. 

I thought that was really cool because she was essentially telling me, “There is still hope.” Now, we were in California this time and where we’re about to move to Georgia. I met a lady who was a doula who had a home birth after three Cesareans. We had met out of coincidence and she told me in Georgia about a well-known doctor there. So I was really excited to find out we would only be two hours away from him. 

We move and unexpectedly get pregnant almost immediately as we move. So thus, the panic set in. I decided that I was tired of being ignorant to birth, and what can happen, and how it works, and things like that, so I took a birth class. It was a really good one. It was The Bradley Method birth class. That ended up being probably one of the best decisions I ever made. I learned a lot. I learned coping techniques and then I spent a lot of my time healing my past traumas. So, working on the fact that I have to forgive myself for things I didn’t know and for things that were always said to me and that I just kept believing. You know better, you do better. 

So I had my provider, had really good support. We were on top of things. I had a really healthy pregnancy until 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, I ended up having high blood pressure and my swelling was out of control. We had to have a serious talk about how we were going to proceed because he couldn’t induce me because the hospital, even though it was a medical thing. We decided on a 24-hour protein.

We did that and it came back that it was just above the line for what is diagnosed as pre-e. From there, we chose to do weekly monitoring, so BPP, NST, and at 39 weeks, my son flipped to breech. That was the biggest shocker of my life. I cried, and cried, and cried and got through the weekend, and then just decided, “It’s going to happen as it’s going to,” because my provider wasn’t pushing me. He was breech supportive. It was like, everything was there and even when we were talking about our options, ECV was still an option, even though I was 39 weeks and I had semi-on the lower end of fluid.

I declined that. I just knew he would flip back on his own. So I decided to wait and at 40 weeks he was back head down, to everyone’s amazement. And then after that essentially, 41 weeks came and went, 42 weeks came and we had to have another serious talk about, “How are we going to proceed? Did I want to just settle for a C-section?” Because nothing was happening. I didn’t do cervical checks at all for this pregnancy because, in past pregnancies, they just made me feel really defeated because nothing was happening. No effacement, nothing. 

He asked if I wanted one and I told him, “No.” He asked if I wanted the membrane sweep and I told him, “No,” because that goes with having a cervical check too. And so we decided no more appointments because at that point, it was sort of like I was meeting a goal each week. Every single week, I was just meeting a goal. So I said, “No more appointments.” On that day I had my NST, I swore I was having contractions, but none of them were picked up on the NST.

I drove home. I woke up the next morning. I was 42+1 at that point, and I cried my eyes out because nothing was happening. I remember telling myself, “I should just do the C-section. On Monday, I’m just going to call. I am just going to get it over with. I can’t do this anymore.” I remember I ate a pint of ice cream. I folded some clothes. This is at four in the morning. And you know, me and my husband did our thing. I took a nap and I woke up in labor. 

So from there, I did 19 hours out of the hospital. We labored at home for 11 or 12 hours and then, we moved to Atlanta, so we had to drive for two hours. Made one pit stop because I had to go to the bathroom and then, we got to the hotel. Spent 5 to 7 hours there. That’s where our doula met us. I remember that deciding moment for us going to the hospital was my husband. I had just woken up from a nap. I guess I had passed out in the bathroom sitting on the toilet, best place to labor ever, and my husband and doula, I can hear them talking. He was like, “When do we go to the hospital?” She was like, “Oh, I guess it’s whenever she wants to.” I really didn’t want to. I honestly didn’t even want to go to Atlanta. I wanted to stay home. I really didn’t-- I don’t know. I guess I was afraid, or I was just comfortable, or something.

We go to the hospital. When I get there, I was 7 centimeters, -2 station and my water was bulging. I remember being in so much shock because I didn’t think anything was going on. I was totally in denial that I was in labor even though it was really hard to get through. We ran into a couple of bad nurses. The first ones that we met were awesome, but the nurses that when shift change came were rough, but I’m not going to go into that too much.

Yeah. Essentially from there, it took us five hours to go from 7 to 10 because I assume he was posterior. No one ever actually said that, but I was on my back a lot because I was really tired. This was going to 25 hours of labor. I remember the nurse looked at me and she asked if I wanted fentanyl. Mind you, I had no idea what that was. The way it was advertised to me was, “Oh, it will just take the edge off.” And you know, that could mean anything, but my tired self took it. From there, I remember passing out multiple times because I was so exhausted. That was part of where a lot of my trauma came from because I felt like I was really out of control. I could still feel all of the pain, but I couldn’t control or focus on anything anymore. It was like the room was spinning and I would pass out, wake up to pushing. It was bad.

So I had a cervical lip. We pushed that over the baby’s head and then we did two more rounds of pushes. It was coached pushing. Not really my favorite thing, but I guess I needed it because I couldn’t really control anything anyways. I think by the third set-- it was like, the first push did nothing, the second push got his head out, and the third push got him out. I suffered a second-degree tear. Recovery wasn’t terrible. It was definitely way better than a C-section, but it took me a good eight weeks to feel anywhere close to back to normal. 

And then after that, I sat with myself and had to figure out how to process everything that had just happened. I noticed that the more I talked about it, the more I cried because it was just hard to deal with everything that happened. 

So we ended up getting pregnant again, Father’s Day of 2019. We ended up losing that baby and then we immediately got pregnant with our son Logan. That pregnancy, I tried to stay with people closer to the area because I didn’t want to travel again. I guess from my experience, I just couldn’t do it again. I didn’t want to go back there. It wasn’t even the provider. It was the hospital. And so I didn’t want to go back there, but I tried to look around. Essentially, I already knew most of the places around here were going to tell me, “No.” I knew that for a fact. I even looked into a midwife, but the backup that she wanted doesn’t support VBAC for herself. I just decided that wasn’t for me and I didn’t want to go with that midwife. 

So I ended up at a teaching hospital and they had midwives there. They were just starting it and I was really excited. I kept hitting dead ends with them because they follow ACOG guidelines and ACOG doesn’t have a stance on VBAC after three Cesareans So they kept saying, “No” even though I had already had one. Then from there, I decided reluctantly to go back to the old place. I was like, “Maybe it will be different this time.” 

So I went back and I met a new midwife who, in my first appointment with her, shamed me for everything that I had gone through with my son. Like the fact that we chose weekly monitoring instead of just getting a C-section and she was like, “Well, that’s really dangerous. You shouldn’t have done that because it could have changed any second,” to which we planned for that. I would’ve just gone to a hospital near me and just gotten a C-section. It wasn’t like I was all or nothing.

I didn’t really feel comfortable anymore. When I finally got to see the doctor for the first time, the one that was so supportive, I didn’t really like the answer he gave me when I talked to him about how to help myself from the nurse side when going to the hospital because obviously you can fire and nurses, sure, but it doesn’t mean that your next nurse is going to be someone that supports your decision either.

In that moment where I was so panicky and I needed someone to be calm, it was like I felt like they were yelling at me because I couldn’t-- I don’t know. I was really panicky and I just felt like they were yelling at me instead of going, “Hey, calm down,” and talking me through what was going on. So when he had said to me that, “Well, you just need to use your voice more,” I was like, “Oh. Well, that is not what I wanted from you.” I want you to tell me like, “Okay, we can try this this time,” or give me actual ways to try to work on what was going on. 

It sat with me for a while. I remember going to my ICAN meeting and talking to the leader there. She was really someone that helped me with my first VBAC after three. This time around, I just told her that I couldn’t do it and I was really leaning towards unassisted. It was calling to me. I felt in my heart that I had to do it. Everything with my first VBAC after three Cesarean and wanting to stay home was the right choice. I should have done it the first time around.

So from there, I joined a Facebook group that was recommended to me. I looked around for a little bit and I thought stuff out, and then I started doing my research on unassisted birth stuff going beyond what you learn in a birth class. My husband was on board the whole time. He actually was telling me today that if I hadn’t known my stuff and made him feel comfortable, he wouldn’t have been comfortable. So he trusted me explicitly to make this decision and know how safe that was. And that’s okay. Because it really was my body, my birth, so I’m just happy that he was really supportive of me. 

And really, everything went great. I remember doing Brewer’s diet for my last birth also because I wanted to make sure that pre-e wouldn’t be a thing again and if it did, I would have gone to the nearest doctor and gotten stuff sorted out. But everything went well. No swelling, no BP issues. I just kind of sat through it and my doula was behind me also.

So it was really nice to have all that support for something that is so, I guess, I don’t know the word to use for it. Like, man. I don’t know. I don’t want to say risky because it’s not risky. I mean, you determine your level of risk and for me, it didn’t--

Julie: It’s just not common. It’s just not common.

Katherine: Yes, uncommon. I don’t know. So essentially going past that, like I said, everything was great. I was wondering how far I was going to go this time because the last time was 42 weeks and I was getting really antsy. I was so hoping I would go into labor sooner, which I did, but it wasn’t by much. It was only by like a week. So I went into labor at 41+1 weeks. This was after two days of spotting. Oh man, I feel like things went so differently because I chose to do the Miles Circuit and I chose to do Spinning Babies actively. 

I went into labor at nine at night and had him at 5:18 in the morning. It picked up so quickly and I think it was just because I tried to keep off my back and keep myself moving. I remember that I wanted to do a water birth and so we had our tub and everything set up. My husband was filling it and everything and I remember getting that feeling like something was between my legs, like that bowling ball feeling that I had never felt before, and I was like, “Oh, I have to get in the tub.” So I got in the tub and I think within 30 minutes, he was born.

That was interesting to me because it’s so night-and-day to the experience I had the first time around. One of the things that I always found so interesting too is with my first one, I remember feeling nauseous, but I never puked and I feel like that’s something that’s hardly talked about in birth, but then with this one, even though I hadn’t eaten anything, I remember puking at least two or three times before he was actually born. And that was so uncomfortable, but you don’t even think about it once they are born. It’s just like, “Oh my God, you’re here.” 

He was perfect. Honestly. It was so nice to finally be able to have that time with my baby. No one is messing with you. No one is touching you. He was just so perfect. I can’t even tell you how beautiful that moment was for me because it’s hard to even explain. For such a night-and-day experience, it was just the best thing that has ever happened to me to be surrounded by love, and support, and people that aren’t doubting you or putting unnecessary pressure on you to stay in bed. No one is offering medicine to you. I actually just had my experience. It was me, the labor, and the baby. We were together and we were one. It was just so nice.

But yeah. I have been doing, I guess, as much support as I can on the VBAC side for other moms since then because I feel like after my first VBAC I didn’t feel that, not responsibility, but I didn’t feel like I was ready to because I still had a lot to process and to deal with from my first VBAC. So the fact that my second VBAC went so well, it’s like, okay. There is a redeeming factor for some people. Just because you had one bad VBAC doesn’t mean that your next one has to be horrific also. So, yeah. I think that’s it. I am sorry if I rushed through anything. I just didn’t want to get into too much.

Meagan: No, you didn’t rush.

Preparing for an unassisted birth

Julie: No, you did great. Yeah, I want you to talk a little bit more about things you did to really prepare for that unassisted birth and what you would recommend people do if that is an option that they are considering.

Katherine: Okay. That’s a fun one. Okay. So first I would start with-- I think when you're first considering that, you should really sit with yourself and evaluate your own risks for your births. Like past births and even possibilities for a current birth. Once you sit with yourself and if you feel in your soul and in your heart, however, you want to explain it, your gut, if you feel like that’s a good feeling and that it’s possible, then from there, it’s finding the right outlet. So for me, it was asking people who have had an unassisted birth what groups they went to for support. There is one group on Facebook that I really loved. It’s not like something where they sit there and tell you how to do everything. It’s more of how you should look at this resource or if you really have a question that you can’t find the answer to, they point you in the direction of resources you can use. 

It was also really nice to see so many like-minded women talking about herbs and tinctures, delayed cord clamping, or even just going full-on lotus birth. It was so nice to see that and experience that environment. And then from there, you just do your own independent research on birth emergencies, and how often they happen, and how to handle them if you can handle them because sometimes you can’t and that’s just a fact of life. There are certain things that you can’t handle and you do need to get medical attention for. And then from there, so specific to me, one of things I really looked up was breech birth because I’ve had three breech babies. I have no idea if my fifth ever flipped to breech because I wasn’t seen by anyone. I did all of my own prenatal care. I didn’t really feel like he ever flipped, but it’s possible that he did.

So I needed to look that up for myself and to say, “Okay. How is breech birth handled?” And you know, a lot of the time you’ll see it’s hands-off. And so doing that research about hands-off and what to look for in an emergency with a breech birth, I am very thankful I didn’t have to do that because I feel like my husband would have freaked. And then I think after you do your research, then comes making sure you know how to handle prenatal care and learning about how to take your blood pressure, what urine test strips you look for, and what everything on it means. And then from there, I took my weight religiously. I took my blood pressure religiously. I had my own Doppler. Lots of unassisted birthers use fetoscopes instead, but I had not even heard of that until after he was born. 

So I used a Doppler and we tracked his heart tones. During his birth, I wanted to check it more, but it ended up being something where we tracked it in the beginning and how I was feeling. If something felt wrong, I would have asked, but we only checked my blood pressure and his heart rate one time throughout the eight hours because I didn’t feel like anything was wrong. I feel like a lot of unassisted birth, that’s what it is. It’s going off your intuition and how you feel. You have to feel secure in yourself when you’re going for an unassisted birth because if you don’t feel secure, that’s where the problem lies. You can’t go into it not knowing what’s going on with yourself and your baby. I don’t know. I think that’s where I would cut that off because it goes, I feel, so much deeper than that too.

Meagan: Yeah. It’s a big decision. It’s a very big decision and you have to be prepared. You have to be prepared on all aspects. You have to be prepared for a great outcome, a not-so-great outcome, and a bad outcome. And yeah, it’s hard for some. You know? But then there are some people that are like, “Nope. I’ve got it.” And then they do. They dive in and they do. They just sponge it all up and they are ready.

Katherine: Yeah. I love those types. I love those women. I am so serious. I have met a few of them and they are just beautiful people. I love how they’re just so solid in themselves. And I understand. You can be a mom and not be solid in yourself and that is perfectly fine because I mean, it took me what? Four births to even feel that way about myself? So, you do. You have to understand, and really trust yourself, and trust your baby, and you have to trust that things are going to work out how you want them to and if they don’t, how to handle those outcomes.

Meagan: Yeah, but it happens. There’s seriously some areas where there’s not even a provider if they wanted a provider.

Katherine: Yep.

Meagan: They can’t even get where-- like the times right now that we live in, it’s wild. It’s just wild. And it’s scary sometimes when you’re like, “I don’t know what to do.” So the only thing you can do is educate yourself and prepare yourself.

Katherine: Speaking specifically towards a VBAC after three or more Cesareans, the ICAN leader I had hosted a really beautiful seminar on what to do when you are going for a VBAC after three Cesareans and you keep hitting dead ends. That largely lies in knowing your rights. So if you are in a place where they are telling you, “No, you can’t do this. Hospital policy won’t let you do this. Yada, yada, yada,” it’s then knowing your rights and that they can’t deny you care if you are in labor. 

They can’t force a Cesarean on you, but coercion is a thing. They will say and do very scary things to make you submit to what they want. It’s knowing that you have to fight for the right. That’s terrible to say, but you have to fight for that. You have to fight for the birth that you want. I think that’s interesting how unassisted birth and that ties together because it’s, I don’t know. I don’t know how to explain it. It’s just interesting. If you’re not going unassisted, that’s what you’re doing essentially is, you’re telling doctors, “No. I am doing this,” and it’s being okay with that. That’s interesting to me.

Megan: Oh, thank you so much. Julie, is there anything else that you want to say? I know you were wanting to close it up?

Julie: No I just want to say, we always encourage you to do your best to find a provider that is going to support you and your VBAC journey, but here’s the thing. You need to be able to trust your provider, but if you can sense that your provider doesn’t trust you back, there is a big disconnect there and it’s going to cause a lot of problems. 

We know like I said earlier in the episode, that there are some states and some parts of the world where it’s not easy or even possible to find a VBAC supportive provider. Especially now, in the COVID area where hospitals are forcing parents to birth alone. Now, husbands are allowed at least, or birth partners, or baby’s fathers, or the other parent, whatever you want to call it, are allowed in the hospital now, but at the beginning of this coronavirus, women were birthing alone and providers were coming into the room in hazmat suits. Women were being forced to choose and not always making responsible decisions about their care. 

And so I think the thing that we really want to hit home here is, we don’t necessarily say, “Hey, if you can’t find a supportive provider, go have your baby by yourself,” but what we do want to encourage is finding that provider that you can trust. Interview as many providers as you need to, but if you feel like you are forced in this position between birthing in an environment that you feel is hostile, or that does not support you, or give you the autonomy over your own body and birthing unassisted, you need to get busy. 

Get educated and learn all of the things and then there’s going to be more and more to learn. The more you learn, the more there is to learn about all of these things. You have to be diligent. You have to know all about different types of emergencies and how to handle them, and how to react in different types of situations, and really trusting your intuition and your gut instincts about what’s right and what’s not right, and learning how to follow that really really well. 

And then, there you go. If it feels like that’s the right thing for you, then trust that. We always encourage people to trust their intuition. If your intuition is telling you to go down that route, do it, but do it in a very prepared, and educated, and smart way. 

All right. Well, Katherine. We are so grateful to you for sharing your story with us today and being an inspiration for people who might choose to birth a little bit outside of the box. We always want to make sure that we are covering all types of birth scenarios and all types of birth outcomes on our podcast. We are happy you shared your story with us here today and we hope that those listening learn something from you. I think that everybody should.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After her first labor stalled and ended in a C-section, Carlee remembers leaving the hospital so grateful for her healthy newborn, but also confused, exhausted, and longing for a “birth redo.” When she became pregnant again, Carlee planned mentally, physically, and emotionally for a dreamy HBAC. She also prepared thoroughly with a super supportive team at a nearby hospital if needed. At the end of her pregnancy, Carlee presented a severe case of cholestasis and her plans suddenly changed. 

Carlee began her low and slow induction at 37 weeks with no signs of labor and an unfavorable cervix. But the patience of her birth team, the support of her doula, and her ability to make decisions regarding her care all set her up for a nice, healthy VBAC. When plans changed, Carlee’s preparation still set her up for success and empowerment. 

Carlee is proof that a medically necessary induction doesn’t mean you have to go right to a C-section. When working with an early induction, patience is the key. With the right mindset and a patient birth team, you have a good chance of having a great birth experience and an even better chance of having a VBAC. 

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Apple Podcasts

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Women of Strength Wednesday. You are listening to The VBAC Link and this is Meagan and Julie and our friend Carlee. She is from Arizona and she is going to be sharing her VBAC story today. There’s something interesting about her VBAC story. If you have never heard of cholestasis, then you want to listen up because we’re going to talk a little bit about it, and what it is, and why it’s important to actually get the baby here sooner rather than later when it is present. We are going to dive into her story. As always though, we have a Review of the Week and Julie will be sharing that with us.

Review of the Week

Julie: Yeah. I’m going to share a review. But before I share a review, I’m going to congratulate Meagan for saying “cholestasis” right.

Meagan: I know. I always call, in my head, I’m like, “Choleo--”

Julie: Cholestasis.

Meagan: Yes. And I just, it says it all the time. I’m like, “Choleostasis.”

Julie: You didn’t even stutter. It was just nice and smooth off the tongue, so I was very proud of you. I had to let you know.

Meagan: Perfect. I am growing up.

Julie: The things we mature on by running a podcast. All right, so this review is from Apple Podcasts and it was left by “natashahoff”. This is one we can Facebook stalk, except it was just left a couple of weeks ago. But I am going to read it. 

The title is, “So empowering.” She said, “I found this podcast after I had a Cesarean birth with my daughter almost two years ago. I knew I wanted a VBAC and I wanted to hear birth stories from women who have had ‘success’. Little did I know all of the incredible, evidence-based information that Julie and Meagan share on each episode and on their blog! I now feel like I have a wealth of information to help me achieve my goal of a VBAC, from choosing supportive providers to preparing my body for birth, all the way to what to do if my plans don’t go the way I would like. I’m so excited now that I am pregnant with my second baby to be able to put these plans into action and begin my journey to a beautiful VBAC in October 2021!

Meagan: That’s coming up.

Julie: First trimester. I know.

“Thank you, Julie and Meagan, and all of the wonderful moms who have shared their stories!

Sincerely, Natasha Hoffstater”

I love that she signed her name. Gosh, we should have waited to read this until October so we could go to Facebook stalk her and see if she had her VBAC. Oh well, we will come back to you Natasha. I promise.

Meagan: Yes, I was going to say. Natasha, keep us posted along the journey because we love hearing. We love it. We truly love when we get the messages and we are like, “Oh wait, you were the one we talked to way back when.”

Julie: We are getting old enough now, and I mean mature, not old, although we are old as well. Well, not Meagan. I’m just the old one. But where we are coming full circle with a lot of the stories and it’s really, really fun. It’s really cool because I love when people share that the podcast educated them and helped them have lots of information. Can I do a little shameless plug-in here for our VBAC prep course?

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: Because the podcasts are definitely lots and lots of information, but you have to listen to-- what are we at now? 170-something episodes in? That’s 170 hours of information that you have to listen to. That’s why we created our VBAC prep course because it is condensed. It’s just the nitty-gritty, need to know, absolutely everything covered that you need for your VBAC, but hyper-focused in this six-hour course in easily digestible video segments with corresponding text and set up all really nice and easy, so you don’t have to listen to all 170 podcasts. You can just go and instead watch a six-hour course. 

It’s set up so you can stop and go, and stop and go, and stop and go. It can take you a while or you can do it all in one day. That way, you don’t have to sit and listen through every single podcast. It’s just a nice sweet, Saturday afternoon with your husband and your little toddler running around, and then you can get empowered and educated in one day.

Meagan: Yay.

Julie: So, I love that. Either way, we’ve got your back. Something for everyone here at The VBAC Link.

Carlee’s story

Meagan and Julie: Alright.

Julie: Ope, jinx.

Meagan: Are you ready to get into this story? I know, right? We are so excited for Carlee’s story and oh my gosh. Okay, Carlee. We are not going to take any more time. This is your time. Let’s turn the time over to you.

Carlee: Okay, awesome. Thanks, ladies. I am super excited to share my story and hope that someone can learn something or take something away. Starting from the beginning I guess, growing up, I was never really afraid of birth. My mom had four natural births at the hospital, but nice, smooth, easy birth,s and both of my sisters had natural births at the hospital as well. So I just thought, you know, my grandma, everybody just all had easy, nice, easy, natural births, so I was like, “It’s going to be okay whatever happens to me when the time comes. I will read a couple of books and I will be good.”

It turns out it was a little trickier than that. I got pregnant about after seven months of trying. My husband and I started trying after a year and a half of marriage. I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 16. Doctors always said, “You’ll get pregnant, but most likely with help, with Clomid,” or whatever types of fertility treatment. 

So after seven months and getting pregnant naturally, I was super excited and super grateful. I remember that first call to the first doctor, “Um, I think I am pregnant. I got the positive on the pee stick. What do I do now?” I don’t know if anyone else has ever done that. But I was just like, “Oh, what do I do?”

With that doctor, I had an ultrasound with them, but I didn’t really vibe with the doctor and so I was like, “I think I’m going to switch to someone else,” which I’m super glad I did. I went to a group of midwives that deliver at a more natural hospital here in the area. My sister had used them for her first birth and so I was like, “Okay. They are going to be great.”

Throughout the pregnancy, I met all seven of the midwives. I found two that I enjoyed more and felt more connected to and so I had always hoped that they would be on-call when the time came. For the most part, pregnancy went really well. I went to all of the regular appointments. I turned out to be GBS positive, which I hadn’t really looked into, so I was like, “Okay. I guess antibiotics is my fate.”

Towards the end of my pregnancy, I was due in September and during the summer, we lived in Boston for my husband’s work. We left out of town and then came home in August to start student teaching at 36 weeks. It was my senior year of college and I didn’t drop out. I just decided to do it. So I student taught from 36 weeks up until I went into labor, and then the plan was to have four weeks off and go back into student teaching. So it was a hectic time of my life for sure. Birth wasn’t quite the forefront of my mind and I do think that definitely played a part.

When I was 40 weeks and 1 day, I made it all the way to the end. I started feeling period cramps around 4:00 p.m. and I was like, “What? Am I starting my period? This can’t be.” I don’t feel like anyone ever told me that period cramps are the start of contractions, so that was shocking to me.

Around 8:00 p.m., they kicked up again, so I was like, “I am going to go to bed.” At 11:30, I woke up and got in the tub. I was just like, “I am just going to try and relax through this.” 20 minutes later or so, my water broke and that was the craziest sensation. I just remember feeling this “pop” and then a gush of water. I was like, “Uh, I think my water broke.”

So, I got back in bed. I knew I shouldn’t rush anything, so I put the blanket down on the bed and laid down and tried to rest, but I was really just on the app counting contractions. Don’t do that, anyone, in the future. It’s not worth it. I just felt like I should have really--

Meagan: It’s like watching the pot boil.

Carlee: Yes.

Meagan: If you just sit and watch it, it never boils. The second you walk away, you’re like, “Oh. What’s that noise? Oh. It’s boiling.” I agree, “Rest. Just rest.”

Carlee: Right. So. I wasn’t. I was so giddy and excited. I called the midwife and it was one of my favorite ones. I was so excited and she said, “Take some time.” Contractions were 5-7 minutes apart, which I feel like is kind of close, but I think I was probably counting them wrong. I don’t know. I was all confused right then.

So she said, “Take some time, but we do you want to come in to get on the antibiotics so you can get your two doses,” and so, we got in. We went to the hospital around 3:00 a.m. and contractions were pretty good. They were coming. I got to triage, which I think is the worst place ever. I do not like triage. I got checked there and I was 1.5 centimeters. I was just like, “Oh, you have got to be kidding me.” 

I got into a room. They took my blood. The guy came in to give me an IV and I asked them, I was like, “Hey, I really don’t like needles. Could you be nice to me?” And he was like, “Oh, deal with it,” basically. I was like, “Oh, okay.” So I think right from the get-go, I just did not feel comfortable in the hospital. I felt out of place. I don’t like hospitals to begin with. Just from the get-go, I was like, “Oh, I don’t like this. I don’t feel comfortable.” I think I shut down a little bit. 

They had tubs there though, in the hospital, that you could labor in, not deliver, but labor. And so, I spent a lot of time in the tub. I didn’t have a doula, so it was just me, and my husband, and the information I had read from Ina May. I just tried to work with what I knew to do, so I would be in the tub, try different positions, change around. The nurses would come in and check baby’s heart rate. The midwife would come in and see how I was doing, but then contractions really just spaced out and after about 15 hours of my waters being ruptured, they suggested Pitocin. I just really wanted to do natural and so I was like, “Maybe not yet.”

They decided to give me half of a pill. I don’t remember what it was called.

Meagan: Probably Cytotec?

Carlee: Yeah, something to help the contractions, I think. Is that what it is?

Meagan: Cytotec, yeah. It’s like your cervix wasn’t super primed and ready. It’s, yeah. Something that can help effacement and dilation. The contractions usually kick in a little bit with that as well.

Carlee: Okay. I took it orally. Is that the same thing?

Meagan: Uh-huh, yeah. They do it vaginally and orally.

Carlee: Okay, because I have heard of the vaginal one. But, okay. So that got contractions a little bit closer together, but they still weren’t-- they were 7 to 10 minutes apart. Just not ideal. And then, they checked me and I was 4 centimeters. So still, not really-- progress, but not as much as they wanted, you know? And so, we decided to go ahead and start the Pitocin. Oh my goodness. Wow. Those really amped up. And so, I wanted something, I needed something to help me relax, but I was so against the epidural. So they gave me something. They said, “It will last two hours. It may make you hallucinate. I don’t know what it was called, but it did exactly that.”

Meagan: Maybe fentanyl?

Julie: Fentanyl?

Carlee: Yeah, probably. Okay.

Meagan: It makes you feel, a lot of people are like, “I feel high.” And like, “Whoa.” Like out-of-body and sometimes nauseous.

Julie: Loopy or drunk.

Carlee: Yeah. I was definitely, at one point, I was running down the street in The Lego Movie. I have never seen The Lego Movie, but I was a Lego person running. It was so weird.

Julie: Oh my gosh, that’s awesome.

Meagan: That’s the cutest.

Carlee: It was crazy. So it was the middle of the night. My husband was trying to sleep and I’m trying to get some rest, but you could still feel the contractions. And so, I was getting out of bed every seven minutes and asking my husband, “Come hold my hips. Squeeze them.” So, making him get out of bed and just a rollercoaster of just-- it was awful. Once I woke up out of that hallucination, weird, daydream stuff, the nurse came in and said, “Baby’s heart rate kept dropping while you were on that, so we had to stop the Pitocin, but we want to try it again.”

So we tried it again and then baby’s heart rate dropped again. You know, that whole stop and go, stop and go. At this point, I am 7 centimeters. I had stalled at 7 centimeters for a while. I think this was hour 30 and so, that was the first time I really considered a C-section and realizing that this was probably what might get my baby here. I still wanted to wait and they did let me wait. My midwife, I just have this vivid memory of her standing, like leaning against these cupboards, her arms crossed around her chest, her feet, ankles crossed over. She is standing up, leaning against this, and just so leaned back and not even caring. Just kind of like, “Yeah. I mean, we can do this, or we can do this.” 

Right? I’m just sitting in this bed like, “Oh my gosh, help me.” You know? I’m trying everything I possibly can, but I just don’t know what to do. Me and my husband are just confused, not sure what to do. She was just like, “Yeah.” I was like, “Well, should we try the epidural before a C-section?” She was like, “Yeah, you could, but you’ll probably just end up in a C-section.” I am like, “What? You guys are these natural-minded midwives. What?” I don’t know. 

So that’s why I was just like, “I guess the epidural won’t really work.” And then, they started saying like, “What if something is wrong with your baby? What if something is stopping your baby from coming like the cord or something like that?” And so at that point, I was like, “Well, I probably shouldn’t keep going. Maybe it just would be better to get her or baby, here safely.” We didn’t know she was a girl yet. Get baby here safely rather than potentially having a crash Cesarean and maybe NICU time or whatever.

So we did. We decided to call around 5:30 in the morning and it ended up being about 35 hours from my water breaking to go into the OR. Everything in the OR was great. Everyone was really kind and understanding. The anesthesiologist was super nice and the nurse held me while I got the needle in my back, which I was terrified of. I think probably the lowest point though, was lying naked on that table with the lights. For sure. Like, awful. But my husband came up and he got to be there. The surgeon let us know when baby was coming. 

We didn’t know the gender, and so we wanted my husband to call out the gender. The surgeon held up the baby and he was like, “It’s a boy, I think.” Everyone just laughed and helped him out. It had been a really long time, so we had to give him some slack. He was exhausted. But it was a girl and my heart was just bursting. I just wanted to hold her so bad. I was like, “That baby needs to be over here right now. They did once they did all their stuff over at the baby station.”

They brought her to me and I got to hold her in the OR, and then they got me back to our room pretty quick and I got to breastfeed. Everything honestly did turn out pretty good. I still have happy feelings driving by that hospital. It’s not an awful place or anything, just kind of disappointing. I remember asking my midwife before the C-section began, I was like, “Can I have a VBAC? I know my body can do this and I want to do this. I want more children.” I wasn’t sure if C-sections for life were going to be my fate. 

But she did say, “Yes. You totally can.” I just remember driving away from that hospital with my little baby right next to me in her car seat and just thinking, “What just happened? I want a re-do. I need a redemption on this birth.” That’s what propelled me into trying for a VBAC. I had all of the thoughts of, “Why is it so easy for other women? I thought I had done everything. I didn’t get an epidural. Usually, it’s an epidural, right, that causes a C-section? But, no.” This experience just had taught me a lot.

After I had graduated from college and once my baby was a year old, we started trying for another one. I just wanted to make sure I had reached that 18 months of like, “You want your babies to be 18 months apart for an ideal VBAC chance.” I started reading books and listening to podcasts. I found this podcast which I absolutely loved. At the end of my pregnancy, I would just listen to it every night. My husband knows your guys’ voices and all of that.

I started to envision what I really wanted and that was ultimately no interventions. I just wanted a natural birth and I realized that the first intervention really is leaving your house, and so I really wanted an HBAC. I wanted to have a home birth. I got pregnant about four months after we started trying and I started interviewing some midwives here in the area. I interviewed one-- I just knew I needed a supportive provider.

If The VBAC Link has taught me anything, it’s that a supportive provider is key. And so, I interviewed one and got super excited at how supportive she was with her VBAC, or with HBAC, and thought, “Oh my goodness. This can actually happen. People actually do this.” But we didn’t super connect and my husband-- we got out of the interview and he was like, “Well, that was kind of weird, but if you feel comfortable, I am comfortable.”

And so, I decided to interview with another midwife here. We were playing phone tag and she called me back and said, the first thing she said when she answered the phone was like, “I cannot wait for you to push your baby out.” I don’t think she could’ve said anything better to me at that point. I was just like, “Oh my goodness. That is exactly what I want.” That was the support that I needed and wanted. 

And so, we built a relationship super quick. I just felt so loved by her and trusting of her. Pregnancy went really well. Nothing too crazy, except COVID. At 20 weeks, everything shut down. It was pretty crazy, but everything was mostly at my home. She did home visits with me and then her office. Nothing had really shut down for my care, except the 20-week ultrasound kept getting pushed back. I had it at 24 weeks.

But everything looked good and I was just preparing for my home birth. I made a birth goal sheet in case I did end up having to transfer. I tried to envision all different types of scenarios. I think the biggest scenario that I was envisioning of having to transfer was if I was just stalling out, labor was taking forever again, and that I would go to the hospital and get an epidural. That was fine with me. I was like, “I will do the epidural this time. No big deal if I need to. I am fine with that.” 

So I had all of these, just prepping for this home birth. My midwife actually works with an OB in Phoenix and transfers to him. They have a really good connection. She had suggested, “Maybe do a phone consultation with him just to get to know him and just in case you have to transfer that you will have a record with him. He will know you and you will know him.” So I did. I did that and I loved him right away. He was for super informed consent. He told me, right at the first phone call, he said, “I will never check you. I will never tell you that you need to be checked because that’s assault. I will only check you if you want me to check you.” I was like, “Wow.” So that made me feel really comfortable.

Meagan: That’s awesome. Yeah.

Carlee: Yeah. Isn’t it awesome?

Meagan: It is awesome. Yeah.

Carlee: And so, I was just like, “Oh yes. I can vibe with him and if I do have to transfer, I will feel comfortable going to him.” Pregnancy went good. At 36 weeks, I started to feel really nauseous, especially at night, and just no appetite. You know, you’re growing a baby, so there’s no room. That’s what I chalked it up to be. I was really achy and really tired, like, super tired. But you know, I am 36 weeks pregnant and that’s pretty typical. And so, I just chalked it up to be the end of pregnancy.

It turns out that those are all symptoms of cholestasis that I didn’t connect until the end. So 36+6, I was laying down relaxing at the end of the night and I asked my husband, I was like, “Is there a mosquito in here?” Because whenever there is a mosquito, I always get eaten alive and he doesn’t get bit at all. And so, I am like, “There’s got to be a mosquito in here because I am just itchy all over.” And just frustrated. I was like, “Ugh, I hate being itchy.” You know? And so, I go to bed and I am just itching like crazy. This is no mosquito. This is more than any mosquito could ever do. I’m not sleeping at all.

I start googling. You know, the worst idea to do in the middle of the night. I start googling everything, itchiness at the end of pregnancy and it comes up with cholestasis of pregnancy. I am just like, “Oh no,” seeing that I would have to be induced potentially or all of these different things. I just started having really negative thoughts and I tried to get some sleep but I cannot. So once it was more of a decent time in the morning, which, I guess there is no decent time for a midwife or a doula, I called my midwife. 

Oh, and I had a doula as well, I forgot to mention, but I did hire an amazing doula who was super great during my pregnancy. So, I called my midwife and doula and just let them know, “I am itching really bad. What should I do? I read that it could be cholestasis.” My midwife was like, “Yes. It could be cholestasis. You’d better get it checked out. Why don’t you go to the hospital where the OB is? I will let him know that you are coming. Let’s just get it checked out just to make sure. Let’s do it for baby. Let’s make sure that we get keep baby safe.” And so, I was like, “Okay, let’s do that.” She was confident, “You’re probably just going to get the test results and come back home, but maybe text us just in case you do stay and do get induced,” because that morning, I was 37 weeks. That’s the day that typically they induce moms with cholestasis.

So, I was just a basket full of emotions, but my midwife and doula were so reassuring and just kept saying that, “This is the best thing for your baby,” and that’s what I wanted was, I wanted my baby to be safe and be healthy. I knew I could do this for baby. We decided to go to the hospital where the OB was. It was about 30 minutes away and with COVID and everything, I decided to pack up everything just in case we did stay. I wanted my baby to be in a cute outfit when he or she was born. We didn’t know the gender again. 

We said goodbye to my daughter as if we were going to have a baby which was so weird and so hard. I was not prepared for that. Everything just seemed so rushed and so quick, that I really had to start shifting my mentality to not focusing on how the hospital was the last place I wanted to go right now and I do not want to have my baby in a hospital, but you know what? God is in control. He led me and He taught me so much with my first birth, that He can teach me so much right now and He will lead me now. And so, I just tried to give it over to God and just trust. I was so, so nervous though especially knowing that induction with VBAC is just not ideal.

Meagan: Less ideal, but not impossible.

Carlee: Right. Right.

Meagan: Yes.

Carlee: Exactly. That’s what my doula and my midwife-- they were so encouraging. Like, “You can still do this. You can still have your VBAC. This is not a one-and-done, end-all, be-all. And so, I was just trying to say very positive. So, I got to triage and it was just me allowed. Husbands weren’t allowed because of COVID. I got there around 11:00 a.m. I just thought it would be an NST and blood draw. 

The OB came in and explained to me my options, and what could happen once I got the results, and just very much informed consent. I got my numbers back and they were some of the highest he had seen. He would have let me leave. He would have let me go home and try to get labor going on my own, but I just felt like it was best to stay and to get induced because I wasn’t sure what this was, you know? And because it can be scary with losing your baby. I definitely did not want that. And so, I just felt like it would be best to stay.

I was there basically all day. They were really busy that day. I was just in triage and the little curtain you can’t go around because of COVID, so I’m just staying there trying to stay up. I was doing squats in the little curtained area. I’m trying to do all these positions. It was very weird. But my nurse in triage was so comforting when I told her I was trying for a VBAC. She got so excited and said, “Oh my goodness. The hospital has a 95% VBAC rate.” All this great stuff. I was like, “What? Oh my goodness.” Super exciting.

She actually ended up visiting me every night in the hospital after that. After her shift, she would come by and say, “How are you doing? Where are you at? How’s the day been?” Because I was there for multiple days. She was really comforting at a time that I was so, so confused and unsure and just scared, you know? That was very nice.

I didn’t get back to my room until 7-7:30 because they were so busy with cases more severe in mine and so they were like, “Oh she gets the next room. Sorry. She gets the next room,” which I was grateful for, but it was also just like, “I am so sick of being here and my husband couldn’t be with me.” Anyway, trying to remain positive and grateful, but I finally got back to my room. 

My nurse, her name was Beth. I still remember her. She came back to my room. She was an old lady and she looked a little like, I don’t know, a little scared. I am like, “Okay, this is not going to go well,” but she ended up being the most confident in my induced VBAC. She was like, “Oh honey, you’ve got this. You’re going to be so great.” I was trying to go natural. She was all for me trying nipple stimulation first. We got a little breast pump set up and she was like, “Do you want a show? You guys just enjoy your time here.” Super sweet. Super nice. 

So we turned on The Office and watched a couple of shows or whatever and got some contractions going, but nothing serious and nothing to write home about. We decided at that time to start Pitocin. And at that point, I hadn’t had an IV yet. I hadn’t gotten checked. So the OB came in and he checked me. I was 0 centimeters and 0% effaced and very high up which, I mean--

Julie: Oh my gosh. How frustrating. If you’re 37 weeks, you kind of expect that, but when you’re trying to have a baby now, it’s just gotta be hard.

Carlee: I was like, “Wait. My baby needs to come.” But yeah. My doula was like, “Carlee, you are 37 weeks. That’s exactly what you should be.” I was like, “Oh yeah.” No one was concerned about that. They were like, “Yep, that’s fine.”

Meagan: That’s such a good point. Such a good point right there. That’s exactly what you should be. I love that.

Carlee: Right.

Meagan: Because you wouldn’t expect to be 4 centimeters at that point, right?

Carlee: Right. I didn’t want to be.

Meagan: Like, you’re really early. Yeah.

Carlee: And so, it was a good-- like, “You’re exactly where you should be.” And I was like, “You know what? That’s right. That’s good.” So, I got the IV in, which I hated again, but it was better and started at the lowest low of Pitocin which I made sure, because of what I have learned here, that you start at a 2 and move up 2 every 30 minutes, right? On Pitocin?

Julie: Yeah, or longer. You know, 45 minutes to an hour. Yeah.

Meagan: I like to say an hour. I like to suggest to my clients, to encourage an hour because it really takes 30 minutes for the uterine receptors to receive it and start acting. And so, it’s hard to know what it’s actually going to do at 30 minutes because we haven’t given it time to actually do it. Does that make sense?

Julie: Yeah, it actually starts responding within minutes, but it takes 45 minutes for the full strength to hit the uterus. So you’re not contracting to the level you adjusted it to until it has been 45 minutes. So if you’re adjusting every 30 minutes, you’re contracting based on the dose you got two times ago instead of the last dose. I don’t know if that makes a lot of sense.

Carlee: Yeah. I think they were doing every hour. I can’t remember. I was like, you know, and it hurts. I’m pretty sure they said every hour because they were very VBAC friendly and everything. So I think they were doing that, but I am not sure. But it ended up working out. So that night, on and off throughout the night, and then at the shift change the next morning, the OB checked me and said that I was 2 centimeters and 50% effaced, which, I was bummed because that just seemed like my fate in birth is just going so slow. 

But everybody else was so excited about that. They were like, “You made so much progress over the night.” I was like, “What? Okay. I guess so.”

They were just so happy because, at that point, we could try and get the Cook’s catheter in, which, I have always heard about the Foley bulb, but my OB wanted to do the Cook’s catheter. I don’t know if you want to try and explain that.

Meagan: I mean, it’s pretty similar. Cook’s catheter actually has better results. But I mean, it’s similar. It’s a catheter that goes into the cervix and is inflated like a balloon on the other side with the saline. It puts pressure on the cervix which is like a manual dilation, then it eventually, once the cervix is open, it just falls out. So people all around the world, you know, it just depends. It’s honestly a doctor’s preference and sometimes it’s what the hospital has. It’s either a Foley or a Cook. But essentially they are the same.

Julie: Yeah. The Cook’s just puts pressure on both ends of the cervix and the Foley bulb just pulls from the outside, or from the inside, towards the out.

Meagan: It pushes pressure down. Yes. It pushes down.

Julie: From the inside of the cervix to the outwards, yes. It pushes down on the cervix. That’s right.

Carlee: Gotcha. Okay. So, yes. So he tried to get that in twice and it was not working. I was like, “No, no, no. I have to do this. This is the only way.” You know? I am just having all these negative thoughts, but he was like, “You know what? Try and relax. We’re going to take a break.” And then his wife who is actually a certified nurse-midwife, they own a practice together and work in the hospital together and everything. He was like, “I will have my wife come in and try. She’s got smaller hands,” or something. 

And so, she came in two hours later and she got it in the first try which was exciting. So she took over my care from then on. I don’t know, but it was great because I loved her too. So we continued with Pitocin, moving around. We would go up to the full amount of Pitocin and then take an hour break, then get back on. Eventually, so the catheter was put in at 9:30 and then the catheter fell out at 9:15 when I was on the toilet. It was the most exciting moment ever because my body was actually working and I just couldn’t believe it. I thought they were going to have to deflate the fluid and take it out manually or something.

So my body was working and they checked me that night at 7:00 and said I was a 6. So I was just super excited. I was a 6. Contractions honestly, were pretty consistent, but I was able to breathe through them, no big deal. And through the night again, I labored with Pitocin. Lots and lots of Pitocin trying to give birth. 

But it was nice. That night, the nurse was there. She was amazing and she was talking sports with my husband which, I think, super helped for him. He had just been in this birth world for going on 24+ hours, and so just having the sports talk with her was super exciting and super nice for him. It gave him a nice big mental shift and excitement.

The next morning, Ellie came back to check me. I was still a 6, but kind of 7 centimeters and 80% effaced. So again, it was easy to feel discouraged. That was a whole other night of laboring and Pitocin. My doula decided to make her way over because she couldn’t leave once she got there. And she had four other births going on at the same time, so I felt really bad, but she was a saint and came in. She and my nurse gave me some new positions to try to help baby labor down and it was a huge help. The positions just helped me a ton. Hands and knees, ball, toilet, side-lying, all of the things. I couldn’t walk the halls but was just trying to stay active. 

Also, trying to remind myself to rest because it had been so long and just to be okay with slow because sometimes that is okay and my baby was, her heart rate was amazing. Sorry, it was a girl again. I blew it again. But it was a surprise for us. So she was amazing and probably what let me keep going this long.

At the end of the night, Ellie, the nurse-midwife, was in the office all day and she didn’t like having other people check me or do anything. And so, we waited until she got back to do anything else. But around 4:20 that afternoon, I was laboring on the toilet and trying to stay positive knowing that 7 centimeters was where I got stuck with my daughter. I knew that there is usually a wall when most women are trying to VBAC and was trying to get over that. As I’m sitting on the toilet, I feel my baby drop. I had never experienced that before, and so to feel her drop down and get into my pelvis, I broke down. I lost it. 

I started crying and saying, “I can do this. My body isn’t broken. I can get past the 7-centimeter hump.” And just the biggest motivation for me. My doula actually got a picture of me on the toilet and it’s one that I will cherish forever. It’s amazing just seeing the confidence in me that knowing that I could do this.

I got checked again and I was 7 centimeters still, but 90% effaced and at 0 station. I made some big progress. We decided to have my water broken, which I thought a lot about but decided we need to get this going and it will be the next best step. And so, I got my water broken and then contractions amped up a ton. I asked to turn off the Pitocin. I was doing it on my own now. 

I got in the shower, but I had to get out of the shower because they wanted to keep checking with the monitors. Those portable ones weren’t staying on. I just really wanted the birth tub like I had envisioned during transition to be totally in the tub, and relaxing there, and breathing through, but I was not there. I was in a hospital where I did not want to be. I came to realize that I should probably get the epidural to give me the biggest shot at this. It was around 7:30 at night. I got the epidural and it worked pretty good. Yeah, it worked pretty good. That’s about it.

We were able to rest until about 11:30 and I got checked. So, four hours later, and I was complete and at +2 station. We were all so, so, so excited. I got to labor baby down for about another hour and then I started pushing. And pushing with the epidural was not my dream. I couldn’t really feel what I was doing. I felt pretty ineffective, but soon I got to reach down and feel my baby which was super cool. Even at this point I still was like, “I could have a C-section at any point.” Like, they could still wheel me back. I was not positive. Although, I guess when I touched the baby’s head, I was pretty close. I don’t know if-- I doubt you can have a C-section at that point.

I don’t know, but it was really exciting. And so, towards the very end, I started feeling really nauseous and as I was pushing, I started to throw up. It was really glorious having my husband hold a throw-up bag as I am pushing. Everyone was coaching me, like, “Come on. You can do it. Push harder.” And I am puking my guts out. I think that happened through four contractions. I definitely-- I threw up pushed my baby up which was so weird, but pretty cool I guess. I guess that’s pretty common, being nauseous and throwing up at the end.

Julie: Yeah.

Meagan: It definitely is because a lot of things are shifting, too. As baby is moving down, our organs and all those things that have been pressed up and jumbled around to make room, they’re moving and shifting, and so sometimes it can make us nauseous.

Julie: They are starting to let loose.

Meagan: Plus, we are holding our breath during pushing and that in itself can make us nauseous, and then we get hot and that can make us nauseous. So it’s all just--

Julie: A hot mess.

Meagan: Yeah.

Carlee: That was me. That was me at the end. Yeah. I threw up and she came out, but I got to pull her up on my chest which was the most amazing moment ever. Something that I wished with my first baby I could have done. But it was amazing. So I got to pull her up, do skin-to-skin with her for two hours or whatever, and then, yeah. That was my birth, basically.

Julie: That’s exciting.

Meagan: Aww. Congratulations.

Carlee: Thank you.

Meagan: I know. It is such an awesome feeling. So, question. After you had your baby, did you feel much better and feel less like you had cholestasis? Did you feel better?

Carlee: Yeah. It was interesting. Once I got to the hospital and started the whole labor process, I really didn’t feel itchy again which was weird, but I don’t know. I guess I just needed to get to the hospital and then my body could relax. I don’t know. Yeah. I didn’t really have any more itching after getting there and then after having the baby, yeah. My nausea went down. My achiness, you know, all of those things. So yeah, it left right away, which, I know sometimes it can stay on for a couple of days or so, but--

Cholestasis

Julie: Yeah, usually it resolves pretty quickly after the baby is born. It is so interesting. I just want to talk a little bit about cholestasis. It’s actually not that complicated of a thing to understand. But it is something that you usually don’t really hear about until you have it. Right? 

So cholestasis is actually a problem with the liver. It affects the liver. It either slows down or stops the normal flow of bile from the gallbladder. So it can cause itching, which is the first symptom of cholestasis, and then it can turn into jaundice-type symptoms like the yellowing of your skin, eyes, and mucous membranes. Essentially, it starts deteriorating your liver. 

And then, if you have problems with your liver, then it can also cause problems for your baby which is why they recommend inducing cholestasis around 37 weeks if things aren’t looking too bad. Sometimes they even recommend it at 36 weeks. Usually, it develops later on pregnancy, but sometimes it can show up in early pregnancy, which would mean you would need to transfer to a maternal-fetal medicine or a high-risk provider pretty quickly in order to manage that.

So, pretty simple right? It affects the liver and it affects its ability, it stops the normal flow of bile, which kind of sounds really disgusting, but it is just a normal body function. Yeah. And the cool thing is, I really love this story because we were talking about cholestasis, which, I don’t know that we have had somebody with cholestasis on, have we?

Carlee: You had one.

Julie: Did we?

Carlee: I listened to it, yeah.

Julie: Oh, so we did have one. But it has been 170 episodes. You guys, I can’t even remember. I wish I could remember every single topic that we have talked about. But also, with the cholestasis, and then you had an induction at 36 weeks with a cervix that was not showing any signs of being favorable and a nice, patient birth team that let her go low and slow on the induction, and she had a long labor, which is kind of expected when you are 37 weeks pregnant. But with the patience of her birth team, and the support of her doula, and her ability to make decisions regarding her care, all set her up for a nice healthy VBAC. Now, I’m not saying that every time you have this scenario, sometimes it is not going to go that way, and sometimes a repeat Cesarean will be needed because if your body is not responding to labor, it’s just that a whole bunch of things come into play.

But I really like hearing stories of an early induction or preterm induction. I guess you were right on the brink of the early term category at 37 weeks. But I love hearing those stories of success because it gives people hope when they do have things that are mesically-- I just combined medically and necessary into one word. Medically necessary for the baby to come out, you don’t have to go right to a C-section, although in some circumstances it might be the best choice. 

But where induction is an option still, you can have that induction and be patient, and be prepared for the long-haul because honestly, a 37-week induction is probably not one of those ones that is going to take two hours, and then you have a baby. It is probably going to take a couple of days. As long as you are set up with the right mindset for that and you have a patient team, then you are going to have a really good chance of having a good birth experience and an even better chance of having a VBAC because patience is the key when we are working with earlier inductions.

Meagan: We said earlier that obviously, induction is not the most ideal. It is just not, but it’s not impossible. When you have providers like Carlee did, it is so possible. It is extra possible because they have got patience, they understand the physics of birth, and what the cervix does, and what the cervix needs. A lot of the time, it just needs time, like Julie said. 

Usually, you don’t go in, unless you’ve totally had a baby before, I wouldn’t say that it is impossible to have a baby within 24 hours. A lot of the times, you go in in the morning and have a baby by 3:00 p.m., but when you haven’t had a baby vaginally before and your cervix hasn’t gotten all the way there yet and things are different, it just takes time. It takes a lot of time and the biggest thing, one of the biggest things that we talk about in our VBAC course a lot is finding a good provider that you trust and that trusts you because if your provider doesn’t trust you, that could be a problem.

Julie: Yeah. You need trust both ways.

Meagan: Because that means your opinion, yeah. Your opinion won’t matter as much because they don’t trust you, right? So you need to trust them. They need to trust you. And all of us need to trust birth. We need to trust birth. We need to trust our bodies, that our bodies can do it. It just needs time. You know, from my birth, I likely would have ended in a C-section if I were in a different place because it was 42 hours and I was stuck. I was a certain centimeter for a really long time and I was exhausted. It was rough. And it’s just, yeah. I can’t stress a good provider enough. So, so proud of you, love and congratulations again. Thank you so much for sharing your story.

Carlee: Thank you guys so much.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Have YOU heard of little c antibodies? Sarah gives us information and inspiration as she shares her story with this rare condition. She fought for the redemptive home birth of her dreams while caring for herself and taking the highest precautions for her baby. 

Sarah built the supportive birth team she didn’t have the first time around and made birthing choices that helped her feel the most in control. Her HBAC with a nuchal hand was a whirlwind and a story we know you’ll love!

Additional links

The VBAC Link on Instagram

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

MamasteFit Childbirth Education

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan here with you today and we are really excited about our guest today. I was just reading her bio, and then I was reading a little bit about her and her births, and then I had this “Aha!” moment. I am like, “Wait a minute. Are you the one that we were talking to before you had your baby?” And she was like, “Yes, I was.”

And so, we have this really fun story, kind of a little established relationship I guess, before the birth and after the birth. It is always fun to be able to talk to people that have reached out to us before they have their baby and then hear from them after they have their baby. I am so excited to hear the full story.

But before I tell you what made her story stand out to me, I’m going to read a little bit of her bio that I thought was really cute. If you can hear my three-year-old in the background, she escaped from quarantine upstairs. My husband will come down soon and rescue me from her.

But Sarah‘s bio is really, really cute. She said she is a working mom of two tiny humans and two not-so-tiny cats. She has a quirky sense of humor and an affinity for superhero movies. That’s where I was like, “Okay.” We have got to talk about this because superhero movies-- I really love superhero movies now, but before I got married, I didn’t even know the difference between Batman and Superman. Now I know and I have a very strong opinion about Batman. We won’t go into that though. But I married a geek and he is all about the superheroes, and the comic books, and everything. And so, I’ve come to really love the superhero movies and all of those things. It’s a sentimental part of my life. So that made me really happy. 

She’s part of the American Sign Language community. Her oldest is hard of hearing, so everybody in her family is learning American Sign Language. That is really neat. When I was younger, I was obsessed with sign language. I went to a class and I had a book I was learning and teaching my brother and sister how to do all the signs and stuff like that, but I haven’t done any of that for-- oh my gosh, it has been way more than 20 years which really makes me feel old to say that. But anyway, the part of her story that-- actually, before we do that, should we do a Review of the Week, Meagan?

Review of the Week

Meagan: Sure. Sure.

Julie: Yeah. Let’s do a Review of the Week and then we will talk about the part of her story that made me excited. Yeah, go ahead.

Meagan: OK. This is from Jacqueline Lee and she was on Instagram. She said, “Just found you and will be keeping you. Hoping to VBAC with our second babe whenever they come along. I would love to share my stories when that time comes. I have been listening to your podcast and love how informative and diverse they are. Our first was born in Paraguay when we were teaching. She was breech and so I had a C-section. Hoping for a vertex baby to be able to have a VBAC, but I did labor with our first until an 8. It was a wild story full of funny cultural differences and language barriers.”

I love that. I remember when she wrote us that we were like, “Oh, you’re so sweet. Can we put you on our review?” And she was like, “Yes, please do.” We are so excited that she was able to share her review and we hope that when the time comes, she will be able to rock her VBAC and have an amazing story and then hopefully, one day, be on the podcast as well.

Julie: That’s awesome. I am excited. It just makes me happy when people come full circle and share they were listening to the podcast and then share their stories on the podcast. That is fun because we have been doing this VBAC Link thing for-- oh my gosh, it will be three years in May. It’s really fun because when we first started out, I was literally stalking hashtags on Instagram to find people who had a VBAC to share their stories on the podcast. Now we have way more submissions than we can even record. And to have people who started out with us before they even got pregnant and listening to the podcast, and taking our courses, and sharing their story, it all is just really exciting to me.

Sarah’s story

Julie: All right. Let me tell you. This is the thing that you have all been waiting for. I know you have been holding your breath for the last few minutes just waiting to see what could possibly get me so excited about her story. And it’s little c antibodies. If you don’t know what that means, you are not the only one because Sarah reached out to us on Instagram Messenger, I think it was, asking if we had heard of any VBAC stories or VBAC information about how to VBAC with little c antibodies and Maegan and I were like, “What are little c antibodies?”

Meagan: Yeah. I remember because I thought, “Isn’t there a big C?”

Julie: Yeah. Big C and little c. 

Meagan: But I’ve only heard of big.

Julie: And we are like, “Is that a capital? Is that like a capitalized? What is a big C? What is a little c?” So we dug in and we found some research on it. It’s really an interesting thing because it’s not something that you hear about very often, but we are going to learn a lot about it in this episode. And before I go any more into telling how excited I am to hear the story, we should probably actually hear the story. So Sarah, why don’t you go ahead and share your stories with us?

Sarah: Hello. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. So obviously, being a VBAC mom, I had a first child that was born via Cesarean. She was supposed to be a birth center baby and I was just having all kinds of trouble with back labor and not being able to cope with everything. I don’t think I did as well preparing for her birth and it was a lot. I felt very overwhelmed and I think my husband was doing the best he could, but looking back, I keep saying, I really wish I would’ve had some doula support there. I think that’s one of my biggest regrets. I actually ended up transferring to the birth center about halfway through my pregnancy because I knew I wanted something that was a little bit less hospital-y. Hospitals make me nervous and it’s just kind of how I am. Unfortunately, I did make that call. I think it was one of those 2:00 a.m., overwhelmed, not dilating any, and then going to the hospital. It was a lot.

So I labored pretty much all day. I got an epidural and then I didn’t have a very great supportive doctor. He just came in and he was like, “Oh, this is what we are going to do” and “Oh, I broke your water by the way. It already happened.” So just not a lot of consent. Things like that that I know now that I want and need as a mom, and as a mom in labor for sure. Once it came down to it, I think I pushed for about three hours and the doctor was like, “Well, baby is stuck. We are going to do a C-section now.” I didn’t get a whole lot of information about what that meant or what that would mean for me moving forward. It was just kind of happening in that moment.

I even remember the anesthesiologist. God bless her. She was amazing. She was the only person that was walking me through what was going on, helping me stay calm, and she goes, “Well, the doc is going to put some pressure to make sure you are numb.” And the doc goes, “Oh, I’ve already started cutting.” So like I said, I just didn’t have a really great experience with my first being born. And then on top of that coming home, I didn’t know how to care for myself postpartum. We had a lot of family stuff going on so I didn’t have any family support, and then I ended up developing both postpartum anxiety and postpartum depression that went undiagnosed for probably about three months before I realized that I needed to start reaching out and getting help.

As a result of that, I started looking around-- so that was about five years ago. I started looking around to the birth community as a whole to see what information was out there. I found out what a VBAC was and that’s how I found you guys. It was just in the process of finding out what my resources were. 

Moving forward to the start of the pandemic last year. I found out I was pregnant and then a few days after that, my work went to remote, so I was working from home in my first trimester with a four-year-old. It was nonsense. It was about as fun as it sounds. I always say, “I love my kid and I love my job, but I do not like it when they go together.”

So I knew I wanted to find a different kind of provider. I started looking around in my area and I found a midwife that would support a home birth. One of my first questions to her was, “Do you support VBACs?” She said, “Absolutely.” And she said it just like that. “Absolutely.” We had a wonderful conversation just talking me through how many VBACs she has been a part of through the years. 

A lot of my first visits were on the phone and everything was weird and everybody was working remote. I told her I was concerned because I had a couple of miscarriages and she was like, “No problem. We can be proactive and let’s monitor your blood levels.” During one of those first rounds of bloodwork, we found out about the little c antibodies. I almost immediately called her and I am like, “What is this? Does this mean I can’t have my home birth? Am I going to have to go back to the hospital?” Honestly, I was kind of freaking out and she said, “Listen. Let me do some homework and we are going to see what that means.”

She decided that we wanted to make sure we were checking on this very well. So I drove-- I am down in Fort Myers. I drove up to Tampa General and that is about a 3-3.5 hour drive and I talked to a specialist. So she is a geneticist. I don’t know. She does stuff with blood work. So I sat down with this lady and she is going through it. The best way that I can describe what she was trying to tell me is, “Your blood cells have different facets on them kind of like a diamond. It’s similar to the Rh. Normally when we hear about blood stuff and a pregnant mama, it is that Rh factor. So that, we have heard of. That is fine, but this is a different part of that same cell, but a different facet.”

It was very confusing to be quite honest. But she explained that when they test my blood, they are looking for those antibodies because my husband has an antigen. So he has got something on one of his blood cells that my blood cells don’t like and as a result, my body creates these antibodies to try to attack it and the really crazy thing is it’s almost exclusive to VBAC moms or second-time moms, but more commonly VBAC moms because when they were doing the incision, some of baby’s blood, some of my blood may have crossed over and that would cause my body to start reacting even way back five years ago when my first daughter was born. It was crazy. Just the thought that that’s been in my body this whole time and I didn’t know about it. So that was kind of cool but kind of scary.

She said that the levels that they found were very low. And it’s just-- you know, “you have got a very low level of this kind of antibody that is freaking out on your baby, so we are going to keep an eye on it and as your pregnancy progresses, if it starts to rise, if that level starts to get more concentrated in your blood, then we are going to have to have a deeper discussion about getting baby out sooner and maybe not going to full-term. Are we going to have to have baby before 40 weeks? I don’t know. We will keep an eye on it.” That sort of thing.

So every time I went to a visit with my midwife, we had to do a blood draw. It was annoying, but ultimately, throughout my entire pregnancy, that level never changed for me. So thankfully it wasn’t anything that I had to really do anything about, but it was always that little worry in the back of my mind. It was just frustrating because I had such an uneventful pregnancy before and I just wanted that again especially in the middle of a pandemic. Everything is freaking out in the world, why can’t I just have an easy pregnancy? 

Then, we go in for the midway through ultrasound. I went back up to Tampa General. My wife here recommended it because she always says, “If there’s anything to find, they’re really good. They are going to be the ones to catch it.” Tampa General is one of the best hospitals in the state and their maternal-fetal medicine is top-notch, so I felt good about going up there. I’ve got family up there anyway, so we just made a visit out of it. 

While we were there for the ultrasound, obviously, I have to go in by myself because COVID. And so, my poor husband is out in the parking lot with the one bar of Wi-Fi signal trying to do a Zoom meeting with me to be able to see or hear anything. He’s got a few minutes to see or talk to me and then they had a rule about how we can’t record and we can’t have the phone or a video through the whole visit. It was kind of crazy.

So for the most part, I am in there by myself. I am trying to communicate with my husband on a weird connection and it was frustrating. But anyway, so during the first 20-week ultrasound, they go, “Well, we are looking and we are not seeing that other kidney on baby,” and I go, “Okay.” The doctor was very reassuring and he said, “Well, it could be in a weird spot. It could be that we are just not seeing it because baby is in a weird position, so we are going to have you come back in a month.” I was, again, just frustrated because we are in this crazy thing and just-- really? Why me? Why my baby? Why all the stuff? So we made plans to come back in a month. 

But I definitely know at that point I needed two things. Number one, I needed to check in with my mental health counselor. She specializes in mom stuff, birth-related things, mom-related things. She is awesome. And so, I was able to talk to her and talk through some of the things that were going on. And then number two, I knew that I needed a doula. Why on earth I waited so long, I have no idea, but I did find my doula around the 20-week mark. She was able to start checking in with me every week because I knew that if I was going into a birth that potentially had any kind of complications, I needed all the support that I could get. 

I followed up with them as much as I could as much as I needed to and tried to identify in myself if I felt like I was stressing out too much or if I was letting things overtake my mind too much just to know to check in with my doula, check in with my counselor, and I think that made a big difference trying to manage things throughout pregnancy. We even got a plan in place so if we did have to transfer to a hospital, having a backpack that I could keep in my closet. We talked about, “If it is in your closet, you don’t even have to look at it, but that piece in the back of your mind that knows it is there will feel good about that and you won’t be so stressed.” I am very glad that I did that. It really helped and I was able to have that calm reassurance. 

So as I am going through, I get to the end of pregnancy. We are still monitoring this little c blood thing, and we still can’t find a kidney on baby, and on top of that, now I am measuring ahead. At 36 weeks, I was measuring around 42 or 43 weeks, so I went on a low-carb, low-sugar diet. It may have been before 36 weeks. It felt like a lifetime of no sugar and no carbs. When you’re pregnant, all you want is pizza and you can’t have it and props to all the mamas that do have gestational diabetes because that is so hard and thankfully, I didn’t have gestational diabetes. I just had to eat like I did. 

Baby kept growing and growing and growing, and we were worried that if baby was going to be too big if there was going to be a sugar thing on top of everything else, that could be a problem. We wanted to make sure that the fluid levels in my uterus were good because that could mean that the kidney is working or not working depending upon what’s going on there. 

So my midwife and I really started having some conversations about, “Do we want to go past that due date?” Legally, it’s maybe measuring a certain size, like in the state of Florida if the baby is too big, she is not able to do a home birth for me. So I was freaking out, calling my therapist, doing all of the things. I spent the week of Thanksgiving in acupuncture, pumping, doing my Spinning Babies®, walking the curb, doing the whole list of things. I must have spent at least a good hour of my pregnancy upside down on my couch, I think.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. How much did the baby have to measure up before they disqualified you? Do you remember?

Sarah: I don’t remember. I want to say it was 10 pounds.

Meagan: Wow.

Sarah: But I think that’s if they measured on an ultrasound and she tries to do as few ultrasounds as she can because she very firmly believes your body is not going to make a baby that is too big for you, you know?

Meagan: Yeah, Mhmm.

Sarah: She supported me as much as she could, but because we had to monitor all of these other things, it was like, “Oh great. Now, we are finding out too much.”

Meagan: I know, yeah.

Sarah: Yeah. So Thanksgiving, we are doing all the things. That put me at 39 weeks. We had talked about doing the famous midwives brew. I took that on, I think it was Monday night of that first week after Thanksgiving and I started having contractions, getting all excited, and then everything completely fizzled out. I was like, “No!” But at least my body was doing something which felt good because before, with my older daughter, we went two weeks beyond. Nothing was happening. I thought I was going to be pregnant forever. You know, all that stuff. So I was like, “All right. Well, at least my body is gearing up for something.” 

Later that week, I started noticing I was leaking a little bit and I wasn’t, you know, is it pee? Is it amniotic fluid? The world may never know, but thankfully, my midwife has a way to find out with that little stick thing. And so, she was like, “Check the stick. See if it is amniotic fluid. We talked about doing a lift and tuck. Apparently, in addition to everything else, I have a weird-shaped uterus that has a forward tilt which is probably why my first daughter was in such a terrible position, and I had back labor because she wasn’t able to move into a good position. But I know that now. So one more chiropractor visit, one more visit to the acupuncturist, and the midwife said, “Let’s see what is going on, but if you have more leaking, let me know.” 

That was Thursday. Yeah. So Thursday, I had my visit with my midwife. We talked about all of that and then that night, I had a little bit more leaking and she said, “Okay. Is it a little? Is it a lot?” I was like, “It is just a little.” And she goes, “Okay. We are going to have you try the brew one more time. Definitely call me because now that we have confirmed that your waters have started rupturing, we are on a time clock in terms of having the best chance for a VBAC. We don’t want to have a long leak and drain out all the fluid, and then get you into a bad spot where baby can’t maneuver.” 

So we did our last-minute chores, made sure my daughter had a bag packed. I went to bed as soon as I could. That night, around 11:30 or so, I woke up with contractions. I’m excited, trying to stay calm, use the bathroom, got my heating pad out. I was trying really hard to hold off on all of my pain management stuff just because before, I didn’t have anything and now I didn’t want to waste it all at the very beginning because I had a 30-hour labor the first time around and that’s what I was gearing up for. My brain was telling me, “You are going to have a 30-hour labor. It’s going to be long. Hold off as long as you can.” 

So I went back to sleep and I woke up a few hours later, around 2:00, and I felt a pop and a gush. My water definitely had broken. That was weird because I didn’t have that the first time. Like I said, the doctor broke my water the first time around. So I was like, “All right. I’ve got to clean this up.” I’m trying to let my husband sleep and be quiet, but I am stumbling around because I’m having contractions and it is dark. I’m tripping on things. 

And so, I get to the bathroom and I’m trying to get settled, and then I’m like, “Oh yeah, the lift and tuck.” So I am having to lift on my belly and tuck my pelvis through every contraction. Normally, I think they recommend that you have someone else do that. It is very uncomfortable. It hurts, but I knew after those conversations with my midwife after talking to my chiropractor, they were like, “This is going to be what you need to do to help.” 

So I had that in mind and I felt the minute she shifted, the second that she shifted into position. It was crazy. I am like, “Okay. Now we are going.” It was around that time that things really picked up and I yelled out to my husband, I am like, “Get up.” And so, he wakes up and he was fumbling around in the dark. I think he knocked something over. But he calls the doula and she was like, “All right. I am on my way.”

And then, he called the midwife. Because my contractions were not, I think-- what is the formula? It is 4-1-1. So four minutes apart, one minute long, one minute-- I don’t remember. Whatever her thing was. It wasn’t quite to that point. She said, “Keep me posted, but we are going to observe her for a little longer and keep me posted. I’ve got my stuff ready. I can be on my way.” She’s on standby. 

So he is coming over and he’s like, “All right. You have to get out of the bathroom,” because our bathroom is this narrow tunnel. There is a wall on one side and I think I’m stuck on the other side. It’s just long, so no one could have gone behind me really well or anything. He was like, “You have got to get out of here,” and I was like, “I don’t want to.” So he is trying to push me out of the bathroom a little bit and I was able to crawl out in between contractions. I made it to the foot of our bed and I just camped out there. I was like, “This is as far as I can make it.” He was like, “You’re fine.”

So then, my doula arrived. At this point, I have no clue what the actual timeline is, but I know she got there pretty quickly, my doula did. She starts helping put up the birth pool and get the hose set up. She’s checking on me and he’s checking on me. I remember she came in and she’s doing hip compressions and I’m trying to move around a little bit. I think mostly I was on all fours and I was just swaying my hips. I tried getting up where my forearms were resting on the bed and I am like, “Nope. I can’t do that.”

I just was doing my best to keep on keeping on and using that low breath, or the low “ahhhh”-- the voice thing that they tell you to do. That was super helpful because just doing that, I knew-- and after taking, because I took three classes all in all. I did The VBAC Link course, I did another one with Mamastefit. She was on here at some point, I think, last year and she was talking about the physiology of birth. Her class is really good.

Meagan: Mhmm. We love Gina. We love her.

Julie: Yes. We love her.

Sarah: Gina, her stuff is really good. Anybody who wants to know the physiology of what your body is doing, her course really nails that. And then, I did another course in-person with my doula service. Theirs was Birthing From Within based. She talked about the vocalizations, and movements, and things like that, but one of the things that really stuck with me was contractions are going to be a minute. It’s not going to be five minutes. It’s not going to be ten minutes. You can get through a minute. You can do that. We practiced holding the ice in your hand for a minute. Being able to practice that and having it in my head was so realistic. 

I think it really helped me mentally as I’m in the moment trying to go through. I remember I was trying so hard to talk to my doula because I don’t think I wanted her-- she was rubbing my back or something and I don’t even think I could tell her, “I don’t like that.” I was so in the zone. At one point, I did manage to tell her, “I feel like pushing.” I was so scared because, with my daughter, my oldest, I felt like pushing, but I was not anywhere near ready to push which apparently, again, was a sign of being in the wrong position. I was scared that that was happening again.

She said, “Okay. Well, where is the midwife? Hubby was like, “She told me to follow up and that was an hour ago.” So we call the midwife, she’s on the phone, and then in the middle of that phone call, I go, “I think there is something in between my legs.” Tara, my doula, Tara comes over and she goes, “Yep. There is baby’s head.”

Julie: Oh my gosh!

Meagan: Oh my heck!

Sarah: Yeah.

Julie: What?!

Sarah: And so, I am like, “Okay.” She puts the midwife on speakerphone. My midwife is literally in her van coming my way and she goes, “Okay, so what is Sarah doing? What position is she in? What do you see?” And so, my doula takes over as the unofficial person in charge. I remember my husband telling me later, he was like, “I wanted to catch the baby, but Tara said ‘No.’”

Meagan: Oh really?

Sarah: Because she has been to several births. She ended up-- I think two weeks before that, one of the other moms that she supported, the same thing happened where the baby was born before the same midwife got there, so she caught that baby too.

Meagan: Oh my gosh.

Julie: Oh my gosh.

Sarah: She is amazing. I love her. She’s just an amazing person and she took over so well. But she comes over and my husband at least thought to turn on his camera on his phone so we have this very dark video, but she coached me through it. I hear my midwife on the phone going, “All right. She can push.” And so then, Tara’s like, “Well, push, push, push, push and my baby shot out like a little torpedo. She was so fast. Her hand was up by her face, so I had an unassisted VBAC, HBAC because I was at home, with a nuchal hand. I just roared her out like a fierce lion mama. It was great. I remember the first thing I said was, “I eff-ing did it.”

Julie: That is awesome. 

Sarah: The feeling of such relief after so much worry, and so much planning, and so much, just all of it coming to fruition in this weird moment at 5:30 in the morning and my poor midwife wasn’t even there. 

There she was. I turned around and I started to look at her and I go, “Wait. What is it? It’s a girl!” And so, I got to be the one this time to say that she was a girl and that was so important to me, but I didn’t know it was until that moment. You know?

Julie: Yeah. Aww.

Meagan: I love it.

Sarah: Yeah. After that, they tried to get me up on the bed and we are trying to get my placenta out. It kind of got stuck. So my midwife is trying to tell my doula, “All right. Give her some traction. Let’s try nipple stimulation. What’s going on here?” I was losing a lot of blood. It was probably 45 minutes later, so I had lost a significant amount of blood. I have a couple of pictures of me and baby and I am looking pasty in those pictures. 

When my midwife got there, she started going to work really quickly and she had her team. It was like a whirlwind of people doing stuff. It was awesome. I know at one point they were trying to figure out where they could hang an IV bag and I’m like, “There is a hanger right there and there’s a flashlight behind the TV.” Like, I am directing things that are happening in my house. How I was so with it, I have no idea. 

They quickly decided that I needed some more support than they could give just because of how much time had passed, so they did end up calling an ambulance which, prior to all of the prep work that I had done with my therapist, I will tell you that that very well would have given me some major anxiety attack before. But I was able to roll with it. EMS got me up, got me downstairs, got me outside. 

They asked me questions. I somehow remembered my husband‘s telephone number at some point during all of that which I don’t think I know that right now. So the fact that I knew that after I had lost half my blood volume was kind of a miracle. The hospital did have to go in and manually remove my placenta which was awful. I think that was worse than giving birth. I remember in all of that, I looked over at a nurse and I said, “I need you to tell me what’s going on because that’s going to keep me calm.” 

The fact that I was with it enough to be able to ask for that was pretty cool, but the fact that I knew that I needed that, again, because of all the prep work that I had done with my therapist mentally and emotionally. Knowing that I had somebody that could walk me through what was going on just helped so incredibly much. 

They got me patched up. They got some blood in me and I was able to tell them, “Hey, I have this little c thing. You might want to know about that when you are matching my blood type.” The doctor was able to verify all of that with my medical records and make sure that I got the most specified blood for my needs to help me get back up to speed. So that was really cool because I knew that having that information and being able to provide that to the doctor on a whim, I know that made a difference in me being able to recover quickly because it was just going to help. You know? Whether it made a huge difference physically to me, I don’t know, but I think mentally it was like, “I am empowered and I have information about my body and about myself.” That was cool.

So, second-degree tear. Three units of blood. I stayed at the hospital for a few days. But she came like a little whirlwind and she is the coolest kid let me tell ya.

Homebirth midwives

Julie: I love that so much. There are so many things I want to highlight in your story besides the cool little c antibody educational piece. But I want to speak a little bit about home birth because people are afraid of home birth. It’s definitely not for everybody, but there’s a misunderstanding that midwives don’t have as much medical knowledge and there’s a higher chance that your baby will die, or you will die, or hemorrhage like in your case, right? 

You were hemorrhaging and I just want you to know that as a doula, and it sounds like your midwife and doula did the same thing, but as a doula, I have seen home birth transfers. These midwives that have attended hundreds and hundreds, and sometimes thousands of home births, are very in tune, and very on point, and very, very particular about all of the details around birth. 

It was really funny because when you were telling your story with the nuchal hand and then after birth, you were losing a lot of blood and they called the ambulance and everything, I attended a birth just like that, except the midwife got there before the baby was born, a couple of years ago. It wasn’t even two or three minutes after the baby was born, the midwife was like, “Let’s get EMS on the phone.” 

She was putting pressure inside and outside of the mom’s uterus to stop the bleeding and then the ambulance got there. I was arranging for her son to go another way and then her husband was arranging things. It was just so seamless, and the midwife was so calm, and we transferred care. It was the same thing. The doctor had to go inside and manually remove the placenta, and then she had to have two D&Cs, actually two more in the coming weeks to get the rest of her placenta out. 

I guess the best way to describe it from my point of view is beautiful chaos. It was an emergency, but man, this midwife was just so skilled and trained. They don’t take chances. They are highly educated. They have, depending on if they are a CPM, a Certified Professional Midwife, or a licensed midwife, and you can be both in some states, they carry the same drugs like Methergine and Pitocin to stop bleeding. They carry antibiotics to administer if you are GBS positive. They have IV fluids that they can do. 

They are so trained and skilled that if an emergency happens, they are going to be able to transfer your care to the hospital. They’re going to know the things that they need to do to help you before you get to the hospital. Guess what else? There’s this really cool system, I forget what the acronym is, but as a student midwife, I am familiar with all these things. But there’s this information database where midwives can share their information with the hospital they are transferring to while they are en route to the hospital. They’re on the phone with the hospital so that when you get there, the hospital is ready to receive you and they don’t have to ask any questions. They just pick up where the homebirth midwife left off. 

I think that’s just something that people don’t really realize happens. They think, “Oh my gosh. If there is an emergency, we are going to die when we’re at home.” Granted, in extremely rare cases, things like that do happen just like they happen in the hospital, but at no higher rate as far as maternal and infant death goes. So I think that’s really important to note. I wanted to spotlight that because, well, nobody wants a home birth transfer whether before or after the baby is born. When there are emergencies these homebirth midwives are amazing. They are amazing.

Sarah: Yes. That was something that I had talked to her in-depth about before because I had such anxiety with the hospital. I remember at one point, I think it was when she came for my home check-up visit at however far along in the pregnancy and I said, “Hey. I am really nervous about if we have to transfer to the hospital, but I know that if I need to, I trust you on that. I am not going to ask to go to the hospital,” because I had asked when I was at the birth center with my oldest daughter. I transferred because I wanted to because I was having trouble and I wanted an epidural. 

So I wanted to make it clear to her to say, “If I’m going to transfer it is because I know that you need me to transfer.” I am putting that trust in her and she said all the same things that you just said. She was like, “Well, we have this and we have that, but if we need to transfer, I have that on speed dial,” kind of thing. I am sure no matter what state you’re in, there are all kinds of rules and regulations and whatnot, but just being able to trust your provider whether it is a home birth midwife or a doctor in a hospital. If you can trust the person that you are literally placing your life in their hands to have them make sure that you are okay, I think that’s key too.

Julie: Yeah. I agree. I think most importantly is birthing with a provider In a location where you feel comfortable with and having the trust in them and having conversations like that with your midwife or your doctor whether you are in or out of the hospital. I think that those are all important conversations. Meagan, you have just been letting me ramble on over here. Do you want to jump in?

Meagan: No. I am in agreeance with everything. Something for me is like, I really wanted a home birth, but my husband didn’t feel comfortable with the idea of home birth. I think that can be a hard thing too. The mom feels comfortable birthing at one place, but the partner doesn’t feel comfortable with them birthing at the other place. I think, sometimes, that can make it a hard situation, right? And so, I just loved so much that you didn’t-- one, that you didn’t have to feel that way, but even with my situation, in the end, we really just came down to it. I gave him all the education and facts on it and he was like, “Oh okay. Yeah. I think that would be fine.” And then after we had a VBAC, I had a similar situation. We didn’t find my blood.

Sarah: Hmm.

Meagan: Yeah. Neither externally nor internally, weirdly enough. But I lost half of my body’s blood after my birth. I passed out a couple of times. It was really interesting.

Sarah: It’s a weird feeling.

Meagan: It is a really strange feeling. I remember waking up, I am like, “Why am I on the floor again?” And everyone is like, “Well, it’s because you passed out again.” But even after all of that is said and done, my husband was like, “You know, if we are having another one,” which we are not, “I wouldn’t do it any other way and we would totally do it at home.” And so, it is just so interesting to see how that experience changed his perspective on where we birth, you know? So, I don’t know. I just love that you had an educated doula and that you had the midwife on the phone. I loved all of it. And you know what? I actually don’t think I knew that Cesarean moms were at higher risk for the c.

Sarah: I think it’s just because there’s a higher chance of the blood passing through into-- cross-contamination they said.

Meagan: Yeah, which totally makes sense.

Sarah: Yeah. It can totally happen with a vaginal delivery as well if there is a tear or something like that, but it’s a lot more common for a—

Meagan: -- a Cesarean.

Sarah: Not that it is common, to begin with, let’s be real. I have a weird blood thing to go with my weird unicorn kid that only has one kidney, and my other weird unicorn kid that can’t hear well, and my husband who has weird blood. So, yeah. We’re a family of unicorns.

Julie: Unique. You’re not weird. You’re unique. I like it.

Sarah: Unicorns. I have two girls. There are unicorns everywhere.

Julie: Oh yes. Yes, yes, yes.

Sarah: Everywhere.

Meagan: I love it.

Julie: That is amazing. Well, wow. We are so grateful that you shared your story with us today. It was so fun to come full circle from our admin texting us. She was like, “Have you heard of little c?” I was like, “A little c? Is that like Big C?” But like, being kind of sarcastic because sometimes we hear some crazy things and she was like, “No, really. Little C antibodies?” And Meagan was like, “I’ve heard of Big C.” I was major impressed with Meagan because I hadn’t even heard of that. And so, it was just so fun to have that conversation in our memory and then have you come on the podcast and share. Yeah. It was just really neat to have you. Thank you so much.

Meagan: Yes.

Sarah: Definitely. Hopefully, if there’s another mom out there that has something like that, she’ll feel less alone.

Julie: Yes. We are putting it in our title so that if anyone searches for it, they will find it.

Sarah: There we go. Perfect.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“It’s not that birth is painful. It’s that women are strong.”

Due to her bicornuate uterus, Jess was told that she could only ever have Cesarean births. When her first birth experience involved a rough surgery and brutal recovery, Jess was tempted to wonder if she even wanted to get pregnant again in the future. 

Then, she made a choice. Jess decided to trust in her intuition, in a supportive birth team, and in the natural process of birth. She chose to believe in her body and chose to take a risk. Jess’ VBAC story is fast, furious, and magical. She found the mental strength to fully commit and the physical strength to achieve the unmedicated VBAC she was told she’d never have. 

Jess is truly a woman of strength and so are you. 

Additional links

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

JessandBabe YouTube Channel

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome, welcome. This is The VBAC Link podcast and we are really excited to be here with you today. I feel like it’s been a while since we have been recording. I guess it hasn’t really been that long, but it just feels like a long time since we have been talking to people. We have a really fun guest with us today. Her name is Jess. She is a full-time mom. She has two girls and she has a bicornuate-- however you say it-- uterus where it’s a heart-shape, right?

Jess: Mhmm, yep.

Julie: That can sometimes cause problems conceiving. It can cause problems with baby’s positioning. She has a really, really cool story about her VBAC with a heart-shaped uterus. I am just not going to try and pronounce it anymore. 

But I am really excited to talk with Jess today because we actually had her scheduled to record a couple of weeks ago, but they had an ice storm. She lives in Oregon and they had an ice storm in Oregon that shut down power and internet for days. At that time, we hadn’t had any more recording sessions planned, but then all of a sudden we decided to open this huge day. We are recording a ton of podcasts today and Jess, you are our very first one. We are so excited that you are not iced in anymore--

Jess: Me too.

Julie: -- and that your power is back on and you can share your story with us. But before we do that, as always, we have a Review of the Week and Meagan is going to read that for us.

Review of the Week

Meagan: Thank you. Okay. So this is a review that is actually from a listener from Ireland which is super awesome. The title is, “So informative.” It says, “Hoping to have a VBAC in July. Listening to all the podcast episodes in preparation for my VBAC. Really positive and informative. I feel the more stories I hear, the more prepared I am for every eventuality. Fingers crossed. Thank you, Julie and Meagan.”

And that was in May of last year, so I am assuming she has had her baby by now. So, “duffipe”

Julie: Duffy-pee, duffy-pay, duh-fee-pay?

Meagan: I don’t know, yeah.

Jess: I like duh-fee-pay.

Meagan: Yes. If you are still listening, we would love you to message us and let us know how things are going and how things went.

Julie: I feel like if people tell us in their review that they are pregnant, they need to put their name so we can go and stalk them in our Facebook community because I just don’t like not having closure for these types of things. I can’t handle it.

Meagan: Yeah. I know, right? I know. Okay well, I’m going to turn the time back over to you, Julie, so we can hear this awesome story from Jess.

Jess’s story

Julie: Awesome story. Okay. Jess, Jess, Jess. I am so excited. Let me just tell you guys a little bit about Jess. She came on here and she was so happy and so smiley, and her voice is just-- as soon as she started talking, I started smiling. I don’t think I’m going to stop smiling this whole entire episode. I think my cheeks will hurt by the end. She just is so fun and so cute. She is going to tell her stories about her Cesarean and then her magical, unmedicated VBAC. So Jess, without further ado, I’m just going to go ahead and turn it over to you.

Jess: Okay. So my first pregnancy, I actually had a really smooth pregnancy. Very uneventful. The only thing was that after one of my earlier ultrasounds, we had found out that I had a bicornuate uterus. The midwife that I was seeing at the time, her main concern was me either not being able to carry to term and that there was always a chance that I could miscarry. Obviously, it freaked me out the beginning, but honestly, after taking some time to think about it, I just knew deep down that I was meant to have a baby and that everything was going to be okay.

The midwife that I started off with only saw women up until we were about 20 weeks and then we automatically got transferred over to a different practice that was with a group of midwives. I think there were probably about five or six midwives that were working there at the time and whenever I transferred over there, they didn’t really seem that concerned about me having a bicornuate uterus. They said that there wasn’t any reason why I shouldn’t be able to deliver vaginally. We will just keep an eye on it and everything should be okay. 

So I took their word for it and I didn’t think anything of it. Throughout my entire pregnancy, I had this really hard bulge up on the right-hand side of my ribcage. Every time that I went in, we would see a different midwife. It was very rare that we would see the same one back-to-back, so every midwife that we saw would check the baby’s position manually. Every single one told me that baby felt head down and that everything was great, and I had nothing to worry about. Again, I didn’t have any reason to disagree with them. You know, first-time mom, I didn’t know. I didn’t know what it felt like at all. 

So we got up to our 38-week appointment and my husband had come with me that day. We were curious about belly mapping. We were chatting with the midwife about belly mapping and wanted to know how to do it and all that stuff because we were super interested in it. And so, the midwife checked my belly again. She feels that hard spot that has been there the entire time and she goes, “You know, I’m pretty sure that that is the baby’s bum, but it’s a really slow day today in the office. We have a portable ultrasound machine. Let me go and grab that real quick. We will take a look and see where baby is hanging out.”

Gabe and I were obviously super excited because we hadn’t been able to see her since our anatomy scan. And so, she came in, and as soon as she put that doppler on the hard spot on my stomach, you could see on the screen the outline of a perfectly round head. Right whenever she saw that, the mood in the room definitely took a shift. Things got very serious very quickly and she was like, “Oh, okay. So that is definitely the baby’s head.” Immediately she was like, “Okay. We are going to send you in for an official ultrasound tomorrow to get it confirmed. If it is, then you’re going to have a scheduled C-section next week.”

Honestly, as a first-time mom hearing that I was going to be having a C-section, I do have to say that in a way I did feel a little bit of relief at the time because I, you know, first-time mom, I didn’t know how to deliver vaginally. You can take all the birthing classes you want and I personally still didn’t feel prepared. And so, just knowing that a C-section I would know exactly the time, day, when, and how-- all of that stuff was going to be covered. That, in a way, brought a sense of relief. 

But anyway, we went in. We got the ultrasound. I don’t know if there is a specific name, but she was definitely breech. She was on the right-hand side of my uterus since I have the septum going down the middle. Her feet-- she was completely bent in half, basically. Her feet were all the way up to her back behind her head. So she had no room at all. There always was the option of having an inversion, but because I had a bicornuate uterus, they weren’t willing to even attempt it because they said that it would put too much stress on me and the baby. Obviously, I didn’t want to do anything that would put either of us at risk, so we ended up having a C-section the following week.

The C-section itself was not the smoothest. It was actually a very rough procedure. I got a spinal block and I had to end up getting two because the first one didn’t work. The babe was actually stuck up at my ribcage, so my incision ended up having to be twice as long, so that way the surgeon could reach his hand up there to wiggle his finger into baby’s mouth to pull her head down a certain way in order to get her to be delivered.

So because of that, she came out with a bruised tongue, really tight TMJ muscles and she was not breathing whenever she came out. Immediately, she was taken over to the warming cart. Nobody was talking. It was pure silence. There were probably about five or six nurses that were over there trying to get her going and at that point, I didn’t feel very good. I was, obviously, still laying flat on my back and I just wasn’t feeling very well. I didn’t trust myself to have her on my chest and to do the immediate skin-to-skin because I didn’t want to drop her, so she actually got to have the first skin-to-skin moment with Gabe. 

I am very grateful and very glad that they were able to have that special moment, but I do think that looking back, that is one of my biggest regrets is not doing the immediate skin-to-skin because the connection just wasn’t there. The connection wasn’t as immediate as I thought it would be. I wasn’t able to hold her until we got back into our room, which, I don’t know how long it was-- maybe a half an hour or so after she was born. It just lead to a whole bunch of other tough stuff. I had a really tough recovery. We had a horrible time breastfeeding. I had a really hard time with the connection and a couple of times in specific while we were there. 

This all happened while I was still numb from the surgery. I hadn’t even gotten up and taken my first steps yet, but I had the surgeon and a couple of other doctors come in and tell me that I am always going to be a C-section mom. There is no other way around it. One of the baby’s pediatricians came in and told me that if I ever wanted to have kids again, I would have to have surgery to have the septum removed from my bicornuate uterus, or else I would miscarry.

Meagan: Whoa. That’s heavy.

Jess: Yeah. So, yeah. That definitely left a sour taste in my mouth. In the end, I ended up struggling really hard with some pretty severe postpartum anxiety, and depression, and mom rage, and all that stuff. But, yeah. That’s basically how the first baby got here. 

So then moving onto my second one, by the time that I had gotten done with my recovery with the first baby, I still had the thoughts in the back of my head of always being a C-section mom and remembering how hard both mentally and physically the recovery was. There honestly was a really short time where I didn’t know if I wanted to have more kids because I just didn’t think that I could go through that recovery again.

And so, I ended up getting pregnant with my second shortly after my first’s first birthday. I didn’t decide that I wanted to shoot for a VBAC until I was about 20-some weeks of my pregnancy. The practice that I delivered with, the midwife clinic, they were all very VBAC-friendly. They were the ones that kept bringing it up and saying, “Hey, do you want to try and have a VBAC? You’re a really good candidate. I think you would have a success,” and all of that. I was the one that was on the fence because I had it in the back of my mind that I couldn’t deliver vaginally because of my uterus, and just that my body was broken and that I wasn’t able to do this vaginally.

So one of the main driving factors for me wanting to try and have a VBAC was because I remembered how difficult the recovery was and I just kept thinking to myself, if I had that hard of a recovery with just a baby, I couldn’t even imagine having to do it again with a newborn and a not even two-year-old at home. That was the main reason why I wanted to try and have a VBAC. Once I made the decision to have the VBAC, I dove in headfirst and did absolutely everything under the sun that I could to prepare. First and foremost, I found this amazing podcast, The VBAC Link, and I took your Parent’s Prep VBAC Course which I cannot recommend enough.

Julie: Holla. Shoutout to the course.

Jess: Yeah. If I had to recommend anything to anyone that wanted to try and have a VBAC, it would definitely be to listen to this podcast and take the class because like I said, I am the type of person where the more prepared and everything that I can be, the better for me. Literally, everything that I needed to know about how to have a VBAC, and all the medical terminology, and the statistics, and all that stuff was literally in that book. All the questions that I ever had were answered. 

So I did that. I started doing the Spinning Babies® daily essential stretches video every day. I was going on walks. I decided to do HypnoBirthing as my form of, I don’t know what you call it, but the way to cope through the contractions I guess I should say. Because one of the things that I had learned in your class was to go as long as I could without having any sort of medical intervention, that being an epidural.

So those are all of the things that I did. There actually was one short moment whenever I thought that the baby was going to be head up again. I went in and I requested a couple of ultrasounds because I had to actually tell them, “This is what happened to me last time. I do not want it to happen again and I need to have some ultrasounds so that where we can clearly confirm that baby is in the right position.”

Baby thankfully was in the right position. There was one midwife there that I really enjoyed. And she-- I don’t even know what it was called, but if I had to describe it, it was the perfect line between chiropractic care and prenatal massage where she would go through from head to toe and she would feel all up and down my body, baby included, to feel any points of tension in my body, and then she would hold just the slightest bit of pressure until the tension naturally released. I just knew that was another thing that was going to help my VBAC success because my body was in alignment, which meant that the baby was going to have an easier time getting into the proper position.

As I got further along in my pregnancy, at the time were they start doing the checks to see how far you are dilated, I chose not to get checked very often. I think I only ended up getting checked twice throughout my entire pregnancy and it wasn’t because they wanted me to get checked, it was just out of pure curiosity. I wanted to see what was going on and if my body was doing anything yet. The first time that I got checked, I can’t even remember how far along I was in my pregnancy at this point, but I was already dilated to a 1. Now, I was super excited to be dilated to a 1 because with my first baby, I remember as part of the pre-op stuff, I had to get checked. I was 38.5 weeks and I was all zeros across-the-board. So the fact that I was already at 1, I thought that was a huge accomplishment for me because I knew that my body was actually doing what it was literally made to do.

The midwife that I was seeing that day in particular, I didn’t exactly vibe with that much. She was nice, but she wasn’t my favorite and she didn’t seem to think that being dilated to a 1 was good enough. She thought that at this point, that my body should have been progressed more and that’s when she had started pushing more of doing all the things like the evening primrose oil, eating the dates, doing all the things to your body to get it ready for birth before your body is actually ready. 

And then, she just really got into my head. She started saying how if I didn’t do this stuff that they don’t do the Foley bulb, so that’s not an option. If I wanted a Foley bulb, I would have to transfer to a completely different hospital an hour away. She jumped off the deep end a little bit and I’ve got to say, she really got into my head. After I went home, cried to Gabe a little bit, I pulled myself together and I advocated for myself. I called the midwife clinic and I said, “I need to schedule out the rest of my appointments and I cannot see that midwife,” because I just knew that mentally, I didn’t need to have that negative energy in my space as I was preparing for birth.

I did not do any of the induction techniques. I didn’t eat the dates. I didn’t take the evening primrose oil. I didn’t get membrane sweeps. I didn’t do any of that. I just completely and fully sat back, relaxed, trusted in my body, and knew that whenever it was ready to deliver this baby, that it would do what it was meant to do. That’s what actually happened.

So the day that I actually went into labor, it was July 29th at 5:00 in the morning. My husband had just gotten home from work. He got stuck at work late, so he had only been asleep-- it was maybe only half an hour. I remember I was sleeping and I got woken up by some really light, deep cramps. My eyes shot open and I remember thinking, “My midwife said that this would happen whenever I was going into labor,” but it wasn’t super intense. I brushed it off and I went back to sleep because I was like, “Oh, it is probably just round ligament pain. I’m only 39 and 1 day. This isn’t happening. 

Not even five minutes later, I felt this really faint pop. It’s so hard to describe, but it’s almost like a water balloon inside of you is popping. I was like, “Wow, okay. That’s weird. I’ve never felt anything like that before.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. My midwife said that if my water broke, that this is what it could feel like. So I woke Gabe up, who had just fallen asleep, and I was like, “I don’t know for certain, but I am pretty sure that something might be happening.” I walked to the bathroom to go and scope things out. As I am pulling down my pants to sit on the toilet, my waters fall out. I just stopped completely in my tracks and I am like, “Oh my gosh. My water just broke on its own. We are doing this thing.”

I am texting Gabe back-and-forth from the bathroom being like, “Oh my gosh. My water broke. We need to call the midwife. We need to call my mom to come and stay with Audrey.” I was just going down all of the lists of things that I had to do because I just knew it was go time.

So we called the midwife. She had wanted me to go ahead and get ready to come into the hospital because I had tested positive for-- I think, is it Group B? Something like that. She wanted to get medication started.

Meagan: Yeah. Group B Strep.

Jess: Yes. So I had tested positive for that and she wanted me to come in so that way we could get the medication started. But we ended up calling her back because I really wanted to labor at home for as long as I could so that way the chances of intervention were smaller. Thinking back, I don’t know why I thought I had more time than I actually did. But right off the bat, my contractions were probably 2 to 3 minutes apart, 30 seconds long and it was just back-to-back-to-back. I guess I thought that I had more time than I actually did because they weren’t as intense as I thought they would be yet. I was still able to shower and all of that stuff, and get my stuff ready, and talk, and breathe through them, and all that. I guess I thought that I had more time than I did. I definitely did not. It was a very close call.

The contractions immediately got really intense and at this point, we are just waiting for my mom to come. She lives about half an hour away from us, so we are waiting for her to get to the house so she could stay with Audrey. By the time my mom had gotten-- I mean, she said that she could hear me. She was standing outside and she could hear me laboring in the bathroom. It was super intense and I don’t even remember looking at her or talking to her. I just passed by her to get into the car. 

I told Gabe, I was like, “We have got to get to the hospital. I don’t think we are going to make it.” So, I had a couple more contractions before I was able to get myself into the car. I was afraid to get into the car because I didn’t want to sit. Sitting was extremely, extremely uncomfortable for me. When I tell you that that was the longest car ride of my entire life, I cannot even tell you how hard of a car ride that was.

Meagan: It’s hard to sit there.

Jess: Oh my gosh. It was so hard. The hospital we were delivering at was half an hour away, so Gabe was booking it. I was contracting so, so hard, but thankfully we made it. The hospital that we delivered at is actually pretty small, so there are only two entrances. There is the maternity entrance and then there is an emergency room entrance, and it’s just on either side of the parking lot. 

So obviously, we had pulled into the maternity entrance. After we got out of the car and walked up to the door, we see that because of COVID, everyone has to check-in through the emergency room entrance. I was like, “Oh my gosh. This literally cannot be happening to me right now. Gabe was like, “Okay well, do you want to walk over there or do you want to get in the car and do you want to drive over there?” 

You can see the other entrance, like I said, from the door where we were standing and I was like, “I am not sitting down again. Let’s just walk.” Thinking of that, it would have been much faster if we just zoomed right over there really quick, but for whatever reason, I wanted to walk. I was laboring so, so hard throughout the entire parking lot. Whenever people say that whenever you are in the middle of delivering your baby that you go into a completely different world, that is 100% true. 

At that point, I didn’t care who saw me. I don’t care what I was doing. I didn’t care how loud I was. There were people walking out to their cars. There were nurses and doctors everywhere and I was just in the zone trying to breathe through these tough contractions. So of course with COVID, before we were actually able to go to the maternity entrance, we had to go through this checkpoint and questionnaire for all of this COVID screening. I had to get my temperature taken. I had to get a badge. I had to answer all of these questions. Again, while not even really being able to talk. The nurse was very persistent. I know everyone has got their job to do, but I was like, “Come on, lady. I’m about to pop this baby out right now. I can’t.”

Anyway, after we got done with all of the questions she was like, “Okay. Do you want to walk or do you want to go in a wheelchair?” I was like, “I do not care. Just whatever gets me there faster.” I ended up sitting in the wheelchair. Gabe pushed me and we sprinted down the really long hallway before we had to go through another checkpoint. They were like, “Are you the VBAC patient? Everyone is waiting for you.” At that point, after I heard that, I just felt a sense of relief like, “Okay. We are going to be okay. We are going to do this.” Because they were prepared for me and as soon as the big doors opened, my entire birth team was there. My midwife was there. The nurses, there were other doctors. Everybody was just there and they were waiting for me.

Julie: Aw. That probably feels really good.

Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I just-- I was like, “Okay. I’m not going to do this by myself. I am in good hands here.” As soon as I lay eyes on my midwife, the first words out of my mouth were, “I need an epidural.” She goes, “Okay,” super calm and collected. “Okay well, let’s go and get you back to your room. We will check and see how far along you are. Now, if you are pretty progressed, do you still want to have an epidural?”

I was like, “I don’t know, but I have got to have something.” Giving birth is such an athletic event. It is so athletic. So at this point, I am so tired and I am sweating to death. I am like, “Holy crap. This is so much.” And so, we got into the room and there were so many people in that room. It was me, Gabe, the midwife, and there were honestly probably three other nurses and then eventually, I call him the epidural guy, the anesthesiologist. I don’t know. He was in there at one point. And so, I’m at the foot of my bed. I ripped off my pants. The midwife was already down behind me and she was checking and she goes, “Okay well, you are 8 centimeters dilated.” And I was like, “Okay.”

So she is down behind me the entire time. I have another nurse who is in front of me who has a doppler on the tummy to keep an eye on baby. Gabe is sitting down in a chair being a great support for me, and then I am gripping onto the foot of the bed railing going through the contractions, and up in front of me are all of the nurses, plus the anesthesiologist, who are trying to get an IV in me and all that stuff in case I needed it. 

I was extremely dehydrated come to find out, so they had a very difficult time getting an IV started. I think I ended up getting poked probably, I don’t know, maybe eight times honestly. Every time they are like, “I am so sorry we have to do this. I am so sorry we have to do this.” In between contractions, I looked at them and I was like, “Literally, I do not care what you are doing to me right now because I don’t feel it.”

Eventually, they got one started, but it took forever. The biggest thing that I was saying throughout the contractions was, “I feel like I am going to poop my pants. I feel like I’m going to poop,” and my midwife kept telling me, she’s like, “That’s good. That’s good. That means your baby is coming.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I am literally about to poop myself right now. I can feel it.” 

She brought over a chair and I was still standing in front of the bed. She had me put one foot up on a chair. She checked again and she goes, “Okay. You are now a full 10, so baby is going to be here in just a second.” This was probably in the span of maybe half an hour.

One of the things I remember is that I had a heart monitor, the finger heart monitor thing, on and I kept flicking it off my finger during contractions because I couldn’t fully grip onto the bed railings, so the nurse had to stick one on my pinky toe so that way she could keep an eye on me. After one of my last contractions, my midwife was telling me that she felt like I was clenching like I was holding my baby in a little bit. 

I was like, “Okay.” She was like, “How about next contraction, after that one is over, we have you crawl up on the bed on all fours and we will see if that helps?” I was like, “I don’t think I can crawl up on that bed right now. I don’t.” She is like, “It’s okay. We will bring the bed down. It will be easy peasy. You can just crawl right up.” So I crawled up on all fours.

She was definitely coaching me. She was telling me how to breathe because obviously, I had to get very vocal throughout the contractions. She was telling me to really breathe and dig deep with the contractions and use the contractions as a way to push the baby out. I did that. I pushed one more time and out came the baby. 

It was the most magical, healing experience for me of my entire life. I was able to do the immediate skin-to-skin. We were able to do that delayed cord clamping. I actually cut the cord myself. I was able to see my placenta. It was just the most magical experience that I have ever had because I completely, 100% trusted my body to do what I knew it could do and it worked. 

So, yeah. Those are my stories.

VBAC prep and planning

Meagan: I love that. I love that you say, “I 100% trusted in my body and knew that I was able to do it,” because this is something that I even found so hard.

Jess: Yeah.

Meagan: Because I’d be like, “Okay. I know I can do it, but can I?”

Jess: Exactly.

Meagan: “Okay, no. I can. But really, can I?” You know? Even during the birth, I am like, “Wait. Okay. I can do this. I can keep going.”

Jess: “Can I do this?” Yeah.

Meagan: Unfortunately, I did not have a fast, intense experience. I had a slow, turtle-paced labor. There were times where I am like, “No. No,” and then my husband would look at me and be like, “Remember, this is what you wanted. You can do this.” I am like, “Oh yeah. Okay, okay, okay. I can do it.” You know? We have to believe in ourselves and even in the moments that we doubt, we have our teams. That’s why I think having a team is so important and I loved that when the big doors opened, your team was there and waiting for you because I truly can only imagine how that felt for you.

Jess: Oh yeah. It was such a huge sigh of relief because like I said, I didn’t know what I was doing. I didn’t have a choice except to just work through it and I was like, “I need a professional here that actually knows what’s going on to help me.” So, yeah. It was great seeing them there.

Meagan: I love that.

Julie: How comforting. That part of your story warmed my heart so much. You get there. You’re in active labor. You are really excited. Your whole entire team welcomes you and then you’re 8 centimeters dilated. What a high to keep going on.

Meagan: I know.

Jess: I know. Gabe and I would go, “Oh my gosh. What if there was a car accident or r road work?” Or it was during the summer, so we’d always have a bunch of farming equipment on the road. We were like, “Oh my gosh. I would have had my baby in the car if we showed up a minute later.” It was just crazy.

Meagan: Yup. Oh my gosh. I love it. Something I love too is how you said in the beginning, “My provider is like, ‘Yeah, you are a great candidate for a VBAC,’” and you were like, “No.” You weren’t super on board and you weren’t for it at that time. We find that that is the case sometimes. It’s okay when those cases stay the same or they’re like, “Yeah, no. VBAC just really isn’t for me.” 

But I think something that Julie and I like to encourage people to do is, educate yourself on both sides so you truly know what the best route is for you. If it is the VBAC, awesome. And if it’s not a VBAC and if it’s a CBAC, yes. Great. Do what’s best for you. So, I love that you found out your options, and then eventually you were like, “Oh, this is totally what I want to do,” and you went with it. Because it is. There is something to say when you feel empowered for making the choice for you. When you are being told, “Okay so, you always have to have a C-section and you’re going to have to have surgery,” that’s daunting and scary. You’re like, “Whoa. That’s overwhelming.”

Jess: Yeah. For sure. For sure. Yeah. I think something that’s really important is just because you can have a VBAC doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s the best option for you. And same goals with a C-section. I think that every woman is different and it’s just important for you to take a step back, go through all of your options, like you said, and pick what’s best for you. That’s why I honestly, truly cannot thank your VBAC prep course enough because it laid out all of the options for me. I knew how to have a C-section for my first time and I felt way prepared and more after going through your VBAC prep course.

Meagan: Yeah. I love it.

Julie: Well, thank you so much. Yeah. That’s one of the things we go over in the course is-- I don’t know. I am going to mush our course and what I go over with my clients in our prenatal visits for my doula work. Have a plan A, a plan B, and a plan C. Plan A is your perfect plan. If everything goes the way you want, what does that look like? Plan B is your backup plan. So if you’re planning to go unmedicated, what if you need an epidural? What if you need to be induced? Things like that, your backup plan. And plan C is your Cesarean plan. 

So it’s really funny-- funny is probably not the right word, but it is interesting as I talk to people because I don’t make them create a Cesarean plan. We always have a backup plan, but I ask them, “If you need a Cesarean--” whether it’s first-time moms or birth after a Cesarean or whatever. “If you need a Cesarean, do you want to know what options are available for you, and do you want to have information about that?” Some people are like, “Oh no, no, no, no, no. I don’t want to say the C-word. I only want good vibes. We are only projecting vaginal birth. I feel like if I talk about it and create that, it’s setting myself up for a Cesarean.” 

For some people, I think that maybe they just don’t have the mental space to go there, but it’s probably a sign that you need to do some kind of processing work in order to get your mind in a better spot because when you fear something and then it happens to you, it makes a possibility of trauma way more likely. But having a backup Cesarean plan, like you said, if your birth ends up that way, you can enter into all the different changes of labor and birth with confidence because you already know about them. 

You don’t have to tell your doctor to explain the risks and benefits of things to you, which you should still do because maybe there is something you don’t know about. But learning about all of the different options can help you be more confident. As Meagan and I work with our doula clients and every one of you at The VBAC Link, that is the number one thing that people say they wish they had more of going into their VBAC. It’s confidence. Confidence in themselves, confidence in their provider, and confidence that they will know how to make the right decisions if something doesn’t go as expected.

Jess: Yeah.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Jess: I think that’s why it shows that it takes just as much physical prep as it does mental prep because you can do everything that you can under the sun to prep your body physically for birth, but birth is such a mental game. If you don’t have the preparation that you need and you haven’t processed the things that you need, it can be difficult.

Julie: Absolutely. That’s why we go over all of that in our course, too. In fact, we start out with the mental prep just because it’s probably the most important part. Entering the rest of the course with a free mind can really open you up to more learning. 

Now, Meagan and I were texting while you were talking and we are like, “Wait. Her voice sounds so familiar.”

Meagan: Yeah. I was like, “I know her.”

Julie: We know you.

Meagan: Well, I was like, “I know her.” When you popped up, I was like, “I know her face.” And I am like, “Wait.” So then 10 minutes in, I am like, “Julie. This is the YouTube girl that shared about our course on YouTube.” She is like, “Oh my gosh.” So we are like, “Oh my heavens.” I just love you. I am like, “I know I know her face and her voice.” Julie is like, “Yeah, I know. I remember.”

Julie: I am like, “I think it’s that girl that made the cute YouTube video.” But Jess, why don’t you tell people where to find your YouTube channel because I am pretty sure everyone should watch it because she talks all about all of the things that she did to prepare for her VBAC both mentally and emotionally and on the educational side. So, yeah. Share it with everybody because everyone needs to go and watch this video. It is so fun.

Jess: Yeah so, my YouTube channel is called JessandBabe. It is all one word. I actually started it whenever I was postpartum with my first baby. Like I said, I got diagnosed with pretty bad mom rage and postpartum anxiety. I just found that creating videos that I wished I would have seen whenever I was postpartum would have helped me if that makes sense. I wanted to make the videos that I wish I would’ve seen. It was just a really great form of therapy I have to say, knowing that I am helping people. 

It’s not a huge YouTube channel yet by any means. It’s very small, but I know that the videos that I make are helping people. I talk about all things. The VBAC video is the one that I just recently had posted, but I’ve talked about sleep training, breastfeeding, we have got some vlogs if you want to see my adorable babies and all of that stuff.

Julie: Yeah. It’s so much fun. So much fun. Oh my gosh. I am so glad that we have come full circle. But you talked about coming full circle before we started recording about how you were listening to the podcast and you were like, “Oh my gosh. What if I could be on the podcast one day?” You are full circle here and I feel like we are full circle now because we saw your YouTube video, and now we get to hear your story again on The VBAC Link podcast, and everyone else is going to hear your story, and you are just so uplifting. You are a great light and you’re going to inspire so many women. It makes my heart so happy.

Jess: Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Before I say goodbye, I have something to share that I think would actually fit your whole vision for The VBAC Link and everything. It’s actually a quote that I saw yesterday and it says, “It’s not that birth is painful. It’s that women are strong.”

Julie: Yes.

Meagan: Oh, I love that.

Jess: I saw that and I was like, “I have got to share that tomorrow on The VBAC Link,” because that is exactly what you guys are sharing. I even had your “We are Women of Strength” card that came in your class. I had that set as my screensaver throughout my entire pregnancy.

Julie: Awesome. Oh, I love it.

Jess: I just thought it was fitting.

Julie: That is really neat.

Meagan: That makes me so happy.

Jess: Yeah.

Meagan: I just love you. We need to be friends when I come to Oregon someday.

Jess: I would love to be your friend!

Julie: Yes. Let’s be friends.

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I know. I am like, “Can we go to Oregon just to come see you?” Oh my gosh. That would be so awesome.

Julie: Oh my gosh. I just was really bummed because 2020 ruined plans for everybody, but we had these big plans. We were scheduled to go to three or four different cities in the country to teach in-person classes for parents and doulas.

Jess: That would have been amazing.

Julie: All of that got canceled because of COVID.

Jess: Thanks COVID.

Julie: I know. As soon as travel restrictions are more clear and we can have more people in a course at a time, then we are going to start traveling again. And Meagan, gosh. There are so many places that we need to go. How are we going to choose? There are so many amazing people, but I definitely think Oregon should be on our destination list.

Meagan: Totally. I would love it. I have never been. I would love to go.

Jess: You totally should. It’s great.

Julie: Well, I hear it’s very beautiful. I got jealous from one of my friends posting pictures of going up there to the Pacific Northwest and I am thinking we need to make a little road trip up there. Or fly.

Meagan: Back in the day when I did Worker’s Comp., I serviced Washington and Oregon. It was always so fun to talk to them about the weather and everything that was going on, so one day. One day I am going to make it back up there.

Julie: One day. All right. Well, Jess. Thank you so much for sharing your story with everybody. We truly just absolutely adore you and are so grateful for you for sharing your story.

Jess: Thank you.

Julie: That YouTube video is so much fun and anyone that wants more information about our VBAC parents prep course, you can just go to thevbaclink.com/shop and it will have the course right there for you so you can take it. Get enrolled. Get educated so that you can safely and confidently navigate all the twists and turns birth might take.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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