The VBAC Link

Come listen, learn, and laugh with Meagan and Julie today in our ode to the cervix. We discuss the role of the cervix in birth, cervical checks, cervical changes, and how to navigate policies to make choices that are best for YOU. The cervix is an amazing, powerful muscle that we love talking about!

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program

Empowering Gynecologic Exams: Speculum Care Without Stirrups

Lenihan et al. (1984). ” Relationship of antepartum pelvic examinations to premature rupture of the membranes.” Obstetrics & Gynecology 63: 33-37

Meagan: Hey hey, this is Meagan and Julie. Today we have an episode with us. We don’t have a VBAC story today, but that’s okay. We are excited to be sharing an episode with us because we haven’t done one for a while and so we were like, “Oh, let’s get on and talk about the cervix.”

This is something that obviously, the cervix has a big role in our deliveries, and so we want to talk about what it means, what it looks like, what it means if we are not dilating or if we are dilating, what it means to be checked during labor or before labor even begins, and all of the crazy things that we hear about these amazing cervixes of ours. Julie has a Review of the Week, and so we are going to turn the time over to her to read that, and then we will dive right in.

Julie: Yes, yes. So excited to do a whole episode all about the amazing cervix. I’m going to read a review that was just left a couple of weeks ago. Get a fresh new one in here. This is from Karen. Karen says, “Thank you,” is the title. Actually, this was an email. Oh my gosh! It’s not even a podcast review. I just read that it is an email that she sent us. So, Karen, we are going to read your email. This is really fun. 

Okay, so she says, “I have written this email in my head so many times in the past year. It has been a bit over a year since my little girl was born and I am still thinking about how helpful your podcast was. She was my eighth baby and was born by VBAC after two Cesareans. While I was blessed to have a very supportive doctor and birth team, something that would be more common in Canada where we are not dealing with insurance companies calling the shots--”

That’s something to think about later when my mind will go off on a tangent.

“I still feel like your podcast helped me to be informed about the benefits and risks of VBAC after two C-sections and empowered me to take an active role in the decision-making before and during labor and birth. I was induced and able to recognize and slow down the cascade of interventions that hospital staff assumed was going to happen. It helps to know my options for induction, a catheter, a Cook’s catheter instead of a Foley. Two balloons, so double the pressure—“

Double the pressure, double the fun. That’s what just came to my mind. So, oh my gosh. Let me get back on track.

“And after a while, a very slow and low Pitocin drip was the way we went. In the end, after a very calm labor with as little interference as possible, my sweet little daughter was born and I enjoyed the peaceful natural labor and birth, plus the easy recovery that I had been so hoping and praying for. My OB was so excited too. Thanks again for this wonderful work that you’re doing.”

And thank you, Karen. That just touches our hearts and makes us so happy when we get reviews on our podcast, when we get emails, Instagram messages, Facebook messages. I am pretty sure we are really good at responding to all of them still. It might just take us a few days. So if you ever feel so inclined, we would love for you to reach out and tell us how we are helping you or things that we could do better to better help you and better serve you. That’s the whole reason why we created The VBAC Link-- to serve and help parents and birth workers just like you listening right now.

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: Yes. Another thing I wanted to talk about before we get into the magical cervix is our podcast sponsors. We have started implementing ads and sponsorships into our podcast and we have been really particular about who we invite into our space so that we make sure the sponsors that we are bringing onto our podcast will really benefit you and your family in whatever stage of parenthood, and birth, and pregnancy that you are in. 

Our sponsors allow us to keep bringing you this amazing podcast, so we really appreciate it when our listeners go and visit our podcast sponsor’s website and see if what they have to offer is a good fit for them. So, we want to thank you for checking out our podcast sponsors because, in the end, it all makes the world go around. We get podcast sponsors, and then when you support the sponsors, you are supporting us and allows us to keep bringing you this wonderful podcast. Right, Meagan?

Meagan: Right. I love you. It’s like a little merry-go-round. Everyone is merry.

Julie: Everyone is merry. I love it.

Meagan: Oh my goodness. Okay, well we got a good laugh this morning. We are on podcast three of podcast five of the day. So, yeah. I think when this happens, we get a little bit more giggly. It’s just so funny.

Julie: And we are not under the influence. I want to clear that up.

Meagan: We are not.

Julie: Except for maybe a little bit of caffeine here and there.

Meagan: Wait, I thought you let caffeine go.

Julie: Oh my gosh, I haven’t even told our podcast listeners yet. Yes. I have had to give up caffeine for health reasons that I won’t get into, but it makes me feel really, really old. But yeah, I have given up caffeine. I feel like I have lost my identity a little bit because I am the “always caffeinated computer geek”. That’s in my bio and now, I am not always caffeinated. I am really grumpy about it, but I have stopped caffeine six weeks ago. I started drinking homemade bone broth. Guys, I am making homemade bone broth.

Meagan: Okay!

Julie: I drink two to three cups of it every single day to help my gut health and overall health like that, but in line with that, I had to cut out caffeine. But now that it has been six weeks since I cut out caffeine completely, I occasionally allow myself a caffeinated beverage when I am feeling particularly stressed out because the caffeine really does calm me down and that’s because I have anxiety. So if you have anxiety, you can totally relate to what I’m saying. So, yeah. Just occasional caffeine.

Meagan: Good for you. Good for you.

Julie: I’m going to have to rewrite my bio. I am going to have to do that.

Meagan: I know.

Julie: Because now, I am just a “computer geek” and that’s not as exciting as an “always caffeinated computer geek”, right?

Meagan: Yeah, no. You are a very exciting person.

Julie: Oh, thanks.

Meagan: We are so excited. This is actually something that Julie has been wanting to talk about for a long time and it’s the cervix. Let me just start off by saying a cervical exam is where-- just in case you don’t know. You might be a first-time mom listening, I don’t know. A cervical exam is where a skilled provider will insert their fingers into the vagina and check the cervix. When they are checking the cervix, what they are checking is how soft, how forward, how thin, and how much it opens, the cervix is. So right now, grab your lips and squeeze them together in a kissy face. Are you doing it? Are you doing it, Julie?

Julie: Oh my gosh. Squeeze them together with my fingers? Like, squeeze them? People are going to think we’re nuts. If you are a first-time listener, I promise we are legit. Okay. I am grabbing my lips and squeezing them together.

Meagan: This is what a midwife a long time ago told me. (Laughing) I am just laughing so hard, you guys.

Julie: I am squishing my lips.

Meagan: So if you squish your lips, not with your fingers. With your lips.

Julie: Oh. Oh. (Laughing)

Meagan: Like in a kissy face.

Julie: Okay, okay. Starting over. Starting over. I am pursing my lips.

Meagan: Mhmm. So if you feel that, now with your finger. Feel the tip. Can you feel how it is thick because of your lips? Maybe if you have thin lips, it’s thinner.

Julie: I do kind of have thin lips.

Meagan: But it’s kind of thick and harder. Does that make sense? Do you feel it? That’s kind of the way--

Julie: I always say push on your forehead, and your nose, and your chin, and that kind of gives you the firmness of your cervix. On your forehead, it’s more firm. Your nose is a little softer and your chin is a little squishier.

Meagan: Uh-huh. Yeah. I had a client that was texting their midwife and asking what they should be feeling for and it was that. She was like, “Pinch your lips together, like tight with your lips.”

Julie: Like, pucker them?

Meagan: Yep. Pucker them up like a kiss, tight, and then feel what that feels like with your finger. That’s what you are looking for if you are checking yourself. That’s why she suggested that. So anyway, that gets really hard and high. It might be far back and not open. It’s closed. It’s tight. You can’t get into your mouth.

Anyway, the cervix can sometimes be like that, and then as labor becomes closer, it will start thinning, and opening, and softening. I love what Julie just said. Your forehead-- it’s hard. Your nose-- okay, it’s softer, still hard. And then, your lips. So that’s something that they are looking for. 

Now, in order to deliver-- I hate saying that all of the time. Rebecca Decker, you have got me. I love it. She has got me thinking all of the time. In order to give birth, you have to reach 10 centimeters, which means your cervix is all the way open and goes away.

When a provider is checking a cervix, they are checking to see how dilated you are, how effaced you are, which means how thin you are, because that could be an indicator on how close you are to giving birth. However, it is not always. It is not always a great indicator and this is something that usually starts around 36 weeks. So when you reach 36 weeks, they typically will check for something called group B strep and then they will check the cervix. Julie is that when you-- I mean, you delivered early. It was before 36, but do you feel like at 36 weeks is typical for your clients? Like, “Oh, 36 weeks. I’m going to do my GBS test.”

Julie: Yeah. They‘ll go in and they’ll be like, “Yeah, they are doing my GBS test. The doctor wants to do a cervical check. What should I say?”

Meagan: “Should I do this?” Yes.

Julie: Well, do you want to know what I always tell my clients? It’s scripted perfectly. I always tell them the risks and benefits, obviously, of a cervical check is a higher risk of introducing infection or bacteria into your vagina that is not already there, so it could increase your chance of infection. 

But what I say is that “If you decide to get a cervical check, it is a very personal choice. Nobody can decide for you, right? But if you decide to get a cervical check before labor starts, expect your cervix to be hard, closed, tight, and tilted backwards, and expect them to have to dig around for it, and it might be a little bit uncomfortable. If you go into your cervical check expecting that, your cervix is doing exactly what it needs to be doing at 36 weeks, which is keeping your baby in until it is time to deliver.” And then my clients always say, “Well then, what is the benefit of getting a cervical check if it is just to make sure my cervix is still closed and high?” And I’m like, “Well, exactly.”

Meagan: Well, exactly.

Julie: If you are concerned that you are in labor, or you are worried or whatever, then that might be something helpful. If you are 36 weeks and you’re dilated to 4 centimeters, that might be a problem, but also, I mean, there are some unique circumstances where it might be a normal thing, but the cervical check will only tell you what your cervix is doing at that exact moment in time. And at 36 weeks, and 37 weeks, and 38 weeks, and 39 weeks even, when you are getting cervical checks, expect it to be hard, low, closed, tight, and backwards.

Even at 41 weeks sometimes, I have had clients going to get a cervical check. Their cervix is doing nothing. Their provider says that and then they get sad, and then emotions affect how labor starts, right?

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: But I have also had clients be completely low, closed, tight, hard, and then go into labor the next day and have their baby.

Meagan: Exactly. That is something that I wanted to focus on is this is the crazy thing about cervical exams. One, they can be uncomfortable. They most likely will be especially if you’re a first-time mom and have never had any dilation, right? And if it is far back, then they are reaching back and around to try and check that cervix, so it is uncomfortable both physically and emotionally. And if you are a survivor of sexual abuse, or any trauma, or anything like that, it can be traumatizing and downright scary to have that happen because it is scary. It is scary.

Julie: Yeah, triggering.

Meagan: It is not someplace that you want people to be. Right? And so, to put yourself through that when you are potentially finding out really nothing that matters, then that is hard. I always tell my clients this when they ask me because it is a typical question, “Hey, I am 36 weeks. I am getting my GBS test today and they want to check my cervix. What would you do?” You know? I always tell people this, “A cervical exam means nothing, not even when you’re in labor because even when you are in labor, your body will tell you where you are at.” I have gone to home births where there has never been a cervical exam ever. I have never seen--

Julie: Yeah. I didn’t have any with my last three births. My home births. I didn’t have any.

Meagan: Yeah. I’ve seen it where this midwife never put her hands inside of this mom and she was like, “Oh, she is probably about this. Oh, she’s probably about this.” And then, the mom was ready to push and she was like, “Yep, okay.” This is following and trusting birth.

So anyway, it doesn’t really mean much. I tell my clients, “If you feel you need to know, if it is going to hang over your head because you don’t know what you are, go ahead and get a cervical exam. But if it is something that is going to upset you when you hear a result that isn’t exactly what you are hoping, do not do it because it is not worth it.” Because like Julie just said, you can be high, closed, tight, posterior, and go into labor and be 10 centimeters in less than 24 hours later. Or guess what? You could be 6 centimeters for weeks. For weeks!

Julie: Yeah, Meagan just had a client like that.

Meagan: Yes I did. It was crazy.

Julie: And do you know what though? On the other end of that too though, if you go and get a cervical check and they are like, “You are at 4 centimeters. Your body is going to have your baby soon,” and then it takes five days before you go into labor, that is equally just as discouraging.

Meagan: Yes, absolutely.

Julie: You’re like, “I am 4 centimeters. Why the heck is nothing happening now?” And guess what? Your mind can affect your hormones and prevent labor from starting when everything is all out of whack.

Meagan: Mhmm, exactly. Yeah. And something else-- when I was preparing for my VBAC journey with Webster, I wasn’t even pregnant yet and starting my interviewing process of all the providers, and one of the providers that I spoke to said-- so, something I got was kidney stones when I was pregnant. I’m just one of those lucky people. It’s awesome. And my water breaks early on, so I have PROM, premature rupture of membranes. Not PPROM, just PROM. It breaks first before labor starts.

Julie: Can kidney stones affect that? Does having kidney stones increase your chances of premature rupture of membranes?

Meagan: So that’s what he was thinking. He was thinking--

Julie: Interesting. I haven’t looked into that.

Meagan: Yes. He said because my body-- I haven’t even looked into it since then. I just took his note and I was like, “Oh. That is something to note.” So my body was working to fight infection. So all the stuff on my kidneys, that weakened my amniotic sac, which, I have no idea, again. I have not found any proof. 

However, coincidentally enough with my first two, it was two days after a cervical exam that my water broke. And so, I just wondered--

Julie: Oh yeah, because it does increase your chances of premature rupture of membranes.

Meagan: Or infection, right? And so, anytime you put your hands in someone’s vagina, it increases infection of some sort. And so anyways, I was like, “Oh, I wonder. I wonder.” I don’t know. It was interesting to me, you know? So, yeah. It’s just-- it’s hard. 

Cervical checks can also be done for different reasons, not just to check if you are dilated or effaced, but it can check fetal positions. A provider can go in and be like, “Oh, yep. I am feeling an ear right here. We have got a transverse baby.” Or, “Oh, I am feeling the wrong occiput. We have got an OP baby.”

Julie: But that’s not if you are low, hard, closed, and tight. That’s during labor.

Meagan: Exactly. That’s usually if you are in labor, right? Yeah. That’s usually when you’re in labor. And even then, we can test with palpitations on the outside to figure, “Oh, I feel like we have got a back here,” or “I feel like they’ve got an OA baby.” Maybe baby’s looking transverse based off of a pattern or something like that, but it’s not necessary. It’s really not necessary and so, I just have to say that first of all. 

But I always tell my clients, “If it’s going to drive you crazy-- literally, if it’s going to drive you crazy because you have to know where you are at, then do it. That’s fine.” It’s not like it’s the end of the world to get a cervical exam either. You know?

Julie: Yeah. I think that that’s just the most important thing is it can just be such a mental block and that’s why I chose not to be checked at all for my first VBAC. Obviously, you know I already have had home births and I chose not to get cervical checks at all because I knew if I was doing all that hard work and I was only 4 centimeters dilated, I would feel so defeated. I would. And I knew that because I knew myself. I knew my personality. I knew that I would not be able to reason with myself at all, even though I know cervixes can change in an instant and all of those things, but I know that it would totally mess with my mind.

And so, I chose not to. I chose to just go with the natural progress of labor and like Maegan said, my midwife trusted in the natural processes of labor. Everything was progressing smoothly. There was no need for it, but if there was a cause for concern or if I was having some type of bleeding or, I don’t know, they saw a foot coming out or something, maybe a cervical check would have been necessary or beneficial. But as long as labor was going smoothly, I knew eventually a baby was going to come out and my body was going to start pushing. 

You can also tell by labor patterns, and how contractions are coming, and the space between contractions about baby positioning because typically, not always, but typically if there is a posterior baby or a baby whose head is a little bit turned sideways, or frontwards, or backwards, then the contractions will couple. They will be back to back, or there will be a lot of really intense contractions and then a long space without any contractions. It will be a really irregular contraction pattern and in that case, you can just do some positional work while you are in labor and usually get that position fixed. But again, sometimes that brings peace of mind like Meagan said. When you are in labor, if you want to know if you’re progressing or you just need to know if anything is changing, then that could be very beneficial. 

Another thing when cervical checks are beneficial is if you are being induced with Pitocin, they need to know if the strength of the Pitocin is doing enough to cause cervical change if it’s making your uterus contract enough to cause cervical change, and the only way they can do that is by doing a cervical check. You don’t want to be maxed out on Pitocin. Pitocin is more often than not described as having contractions that are more intense than contractions without Pitocin. And so, it’s hard to gauge labor by how the mother is acting based on Pitocin contractions. 

And in a hospital, I mean, let’s just call it like it is. Doctors like data. They like to see things and they like to know numbers. They like to know how things are progressing. They don’t like to just sit, watch, and observe, and they can’t because they are delivering a dozen other babies that day. I don’t know, probably not 12 babies in a day. And there are nurses in and out and everything like that. That’s the way to get your continuity of care and to make everybody happy is by looking at the charts and that’s how they see that everything is going normally unless you have somebody that is constantly by your side, like a midwife at a home birth, that can monitor and knows what the natural, normal flow of labor looks like without Pitocin or other interventions, then a cervical check is a pretty useful tool to make sure that induction, or Pitocin, or whatever is doing enough to cause cervical change.

Meagan: Right. I wanted to add a number, a study about PROM. We were talking a little bit about it, but there were some studies. There weren’t a ton of people enrolled in this study, so you have to take it with a grain of salt, but at the same time it was still a study done, and so you can just look at it. What they did was, there were groups, and the one, they didn’t get checked until 40 to 41 weeks, and then the other one started getting their routine checks starting at 37 weeks. When they compared the rate of PROM in both groups, the rate of PROM was 6% in the group without vaginal exams. Sorry, yeah. So, 6% versus 18% of the women who had weekly exams had PROM.

Julie: That’s three times the amount.

Meagan: Yeah so, exactly. Yeah. Isn’t that crazy?

Julie: Wow.

Meagan: I remember when my water broke with Lainey, my nurse was like, “Only 10% of people have PROM,” and then it happened with number two, with Lyla, and then it happened with Web and I’m like, “Well, frick.”

Julie: You’re like, “Sure feels like 100% to me.”

Meagan: I feel like 100%, yeah. But that’s interesting to me, 6% versus 18%. Seriously, that’s pretty crazy. That’s a pretty big number. So something to think about especially if you are someone who has had PROM in the past. You may want to avoid cervical exams for that reason. I know for me, I wanted to avoid cervical exams and I wanted to avoid stripping of my membranes. Those two things were very important to me that I avoided. I started contracting and then my water broke early on still with Webster, but at the same time, I had a whole different experience with Webster and someone who trusted birth more and gave me the time that I needed. But to me, 6% versus 18%, that to me was pretty substantial.

Julie: Yeah, that is pretty crazy. So, my second and third babies actually started with PROM. PROM is, I don’t know if we have said this or not, premature rupture of membranes. That’s basically just a fancy way of saying your water breaks before labor starts. So two out of my three VBACs, which were my spontaneous labors, started with PROM. But then again, I don’t know if it was really PROM or not because with my VBAC baby, I was in early labor at the wedding night before I went to bed.

I woke up to my water breaking both times. I very well could have been in labor, but I labored for a long time afterwards. But then with my last baby, my third VBAC which is my fourth child, my water didn’t break until two minutes before she was born. So it’s really interesting. Yeah. That’s really good information, Meagan, to consider about cervical checks. 

The reason why they are forced so much and offered so much is because doctors like data. It’s just, it’s not a good way, but it’s a way for them to feel like there is some kind of control or that they have some kind of information that they can use to base the rest of your care on. And so, what I would always say if your provider is getting really pushy about a cervical check, one thing I tell my clients to do is say, “Okay, so we do my cervical check, then what will change in my care based on what we find in the cervical check? What are we going to do with this information that you get from the cervical check?” 

Your provider might say, “Well, we just want to make sure that your cervix is getting ready for labor.” Then you can say, “Well--” Sorry. That was said in a dumb voice. I’m sure that most providers-- I didn’t want to portray providers in that way. But if they just tell you, “Well, we want to make sure your cervix is getting ready for labor,” then you can say, “Okay, but what if it’s not getting ready for labor? What if it’s hard and closed, then what would you do?” And then they’ll say, “Well, we will probably just watch and want to do another cervical check next week to see if there has been any change.” Then you can say, “Okay. Well then, in that case, I think I would rather just wait.” You know? Or to say, “No. I’m going to decline.” 

I have never had clients, at least in pregnancy, get any kickback when they say, “No. I don’t want to do a cervical check.” Usually, the provider is like, “Okay, cool.” Because you know why? It’s because most parents-- I don’t think that anyone likes to get a cervical check, but it has become such a standard thing, most parents agree to it. They think, “My provider says I should get a cervical check. I guess I should get a cervical check.” Right? 

But then what happens is, if you’re 40 weeks or 41 weeks and your cervix is still hard and closed, and tight, and your provider takes their hand out of your vagina and says, “Well, your cervix is still posterior and pretty hard. There hasn’t been much change since last week. It doesn’t really look like your body is going to go into labor, so we should probably schedule a Cesarean.”

Meagan: Yes, or an induction.

Julie: Yeah, or an induction. But if the cervix isn’t opening, or I guess they could do a Foley bulb, but some providers won’t do a Foley with a VBAC which is not evidence-based either.

Meagan: It depends on the place. Yeah. It’s so interesting. I have seen some pressure and kickback for people that are like, “You know, I am going to avoid doing that,” or “I am going to decline that.” It’s like, “Well, we really need to do it next week then because we need to know.”

Julie: Yeah, and then next week just say, “No” again.

Meagan: Yeah. “Because we need to know.” It’s like, no. They don’t need to know, you guys.

Julie: Why do you need to know?

Meagan: They don’t need to know. No one needs to know because your body will go into labor. It just will.

Julie: Babies just don’t stay in forever. They just don’t.

Meagan: I know. I know. So there is this website called feministmidwife.com and I love it because she has got a lot of awesome stuff on there. She has a blog. It’s kind of older, but I think it’s awesome. It’s called Empowering Gynecologic Exams: Speculum Care Without Stirrups. 

You guys should go read about it because she talks about how you don’t have to have your feet up in these crazy big stirrups to get vaginal exams and things like that. You just, you don’t. I also have seen that in labor where my clients are like, “Oh yeah. Hey, we need to do a cervical exam.” “Okay, that’s fine. Can you do that right here?” Because they are laboring comfortably and they are in their zone. They found it on their side, or on their hands and knees, or whatever, and providers are like, “No. We have to have you on your back,” and you are crisscross applesauce and I’m like, “No, you don’t.”

So give that website a look for sure because sometimes even just the way you are checked can bring on the pain and discomfort, right? But yeah. It’s just hard. Cervical exams-- they kill me a little bit. They just kill me a little bit, I’ll be honest. But sometimes, it’s really nice to know when you want to know, and it’s for a convenience for you for your mind. You’re like, “Okay. I want to labor at home as long as possible, and so I would like to know where I am starting so when I am in labor, I know I am already 6 centimeters, so if things are intense, I probably need to go because I’m in transition,” or things like that. 

I understand that, too. You just have to go with what is best for you and what you feel that you need, but don’t let anyone pressure you or force you into something that you are not comfortable with. If you are presented with a provider that is like, “No. We are doing a cervical exam. That is what we do. You are 37 weeks today. We do it.” You know? You don’t have to. If that’s not what you want, say, “I decline. I am not going to do that.”

Julie: Just walk out. Say “No.” Say, “I’ll sign a waiver saying I am refusing treatment and you document in my records that I declined a cervical check,” and then bam. Then it’s documented.

Meagan: No one needs to be in your vagina. They just don’t.

Julie: Just say “No”.

Meagan: Just say “No”. Again, unless you want to. Unless you want to and if you do, that’s fine. So, yeah. Do you have any other--

Julie: Yeah. Should we talk about the different changes that the cervix does go through?

Meagan: Yeah, Mhmm.

Julie: Because sometimes just hearing a number, the centimeter number can be pretty frustrating. I wish I had a video. We go over this in-depth in our How to VBAC Prep Course for Parents and also for our doulas in our Doula Course. The cervix-- most of the time when people say “cervical change”, they’re like, “Oh, 4 centimeters, 5 centimeters, 6 centimeters, 7 centimeters”. But what they don’t think about is all the other changes that the cervix is making on its way to 10 centimeters. 

A cervix, at the very beginning, during your whole entire pregnancy, we talked about it at the very beginning of this podcast, your cervix’s job is to be hard, tight, closed, thick, and pointed backwards. It is Fort Knox. It is keeping that baby in. That baby is not coming out and by the time your baby is born, it has to be wide open and create all of the space and room for baby. In order to do that, it does more than just open, which is when you say, “Oh, 5 centimeters dilated.” That’s what we are talking about when we say your cervix is opening. Okay?

Now, one of the first things that your cervix will do is start to straighten out, which will move from a posterior position to anterior position. Not to be confused with baby’s position. Sometimes, I have my clients who will come back to me and they will be like, “They said my baby was posterior during the cervical check” and I am like, “Well, I think they might have meant that your cervix is posterior.” 

Posterior just means to the back, so your cervix is pointing backwards. It straightens out to become more anterior. It moves forward. It also softens. So like we talked about before, your forehead, your nose, and then your chin, and then your lips. It goes through those softening phases. By the time it’s all the way soft, it will be really squishy like your lips are, and then it thins. Which, if you think about it, it starts pretty thick. I don’t know. How long is a cervix? An inch or something long? And then it thins out until it is paper-thin, and then eventually it pulls all the way over the baby’s head and you can’t feel it anymore. So that is called effacement which means thinning. Effacement. And then it also--

Oh no, wait. I got it mixed up. The softening is different from effacement. It softens until it gets soft and squishy like your lips and then it thins out. The thinning part is called effacement. And then also, your baby descends. How high your baby is in your pelvis is also part of cervical change because a baby whose head is pressing against the cervix is going to cause the cervix to change more. So it goes through those changes of moving forward, becoming softer, thinning, and then opening is actually one of the last things that it does.

Now, it doesn’t do these things in order, but usually, they do them simultaneously. But I will tell you, a cervix that is forward, and softer, and thinner opens a lot easier than a cervix that is harder and thicker. Right? Can you envision what I am explaining here?

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: So if you get checked when you are in labor and you are 4 centimeters and 50% effaced, which means halfway effaced, right? You would need to go from about 1 inch thick-- I think, I’m just guessing. I don’t know if it is 1 inch, so don’t really quote me on that. I just am thinking in my head based on the visuals I have seen. Which means, now you are half an inch thick, so 50% effaced and 4 centimeters dilated, and then you get checked again two hours later and your nurse is like, “Well, you are 4 centimeters dilated.” 

Then you are automatically going to think, “Oh my gosh. I’m still 4 centimeters dilated. My cervix hasn’t made any change at all.” Then I always want to you ask, “Okay. Well, how effaced am I?” And then, the nurse will usually say, “Oh. Well look, you are 80% effaced.” Going from 50% effaced to 80% effaced is a huge deal because that means your cervix is thinner, and thinner cervixes open more easily. So even though you might still be 4 centimeters, going from 50% effaced to 80% effaced is a lot of cervical change.

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah.

Julie: And also, where is baby in the pelvis? What station is baby? I know we-- oh my gosh. There is so much. I feel like I am teaching our course now. We go way in-depth into all of this in our VBAC Parents Course which you can find at thevbaclink.com/shop, but how low baby is into the pelvis can also make a big impact on cervical change. 

If your baby goes from a -2 station or a -3 station to a -1 station, the baby has gotten a lot lower and again, a baby that is lower in the pelvis also can create cervical change quicker. So don’t get discouraged if you are 4 centimeters. 4 centimeters is a really commonplace for your body to hang out for a little while. Getting to 6 centimeters is always the longest part. Getting from 1 to 6 usually progresses slower than getting from 7 to 10, right? 7 to 10 usually goes relatively quick compared to 1 to 6. But it’s also kind of common to hang out at 6 centimeters for a little while as your baby is descending and your cervix is thinning out more and getting softer. Those are two really common centimeter dilations to hang out at while your cervix finishes getting ready for the next stage of labor.

So, always ask. If you’re still 4 centimeters, or 5, or whatever, ask about your effacement. Ask where baby is. Ask if your cervix is feeling any softer or if it is still pretty firm because all of those things contribute to cervical change and all those things will help your cervix dilate faster as they progress.

Meagan: Nice. That was awesome. Good job.

Julie: I am trying to go through it fast without teaching on our entire course for, you know, time’s sake.

Meagan: Yeah. Moral of the story, don’t get defeated if your cervix hasn’t made the amount of change that you hoped for or thought your provider said you had to make. Sometimes it takes longer.

Julie: Yeah. And before labor starts, if you feel like a cervical check has the possibility of making you feel really down and discouraged, then it’s okay to say no and not get checked. Just assume that your cervix is doing exactly what needs to do by keeping the baby in until it is ready to come out.

Meagan: Yep.

Julie: Ode to the cervix. The cervix is a pretty powerful thing, you guys.

Meagan: It’s an amazing thing. It’s an amazing thing. We are grateful for our cervix, and our uterus, and all of the amazing things our bodies do, really. So, okay. If you have any other questions on the cervix, give us an email. We love to talk about the cervix.

Julie: Really, we love to talk about anything.

Meagan: Anything, yeah.

Julie: We just love to talk. That’s why we have a podcast. All right. Well, yes. Let us know what your other questions are and now, hopefully, you’re walking away from this episode knowing a little bit more about cervixes and cervical checks.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Breana’s first birth was not only an emergency Cesarean at 24 weeks due to severe preeclampsia, but she was also given a classical incision and told that under no circumstances would her body be able to tolerate labor in the future. The news broke Breana’s heart as she longed deeply for a natural, unmedicated birth. 

Breana researched extensively and found a community of women who also had special scars. When birthing unassisted seemed like her only option, Breana found Amish midwives who were willing to attend her birth. Her VBAC was triumphant, restorative, and wonderful in every way.

When our bodies are properly fueled and nourished, our birth outcomes are better and our babies are healthier. Breana is a perfect example.

We’ve always been told that preeclampsia has no known cause, but what if there WAS something we could do to prevent it? 

Additional links

Special Scars, Special Hope

Silent Knife: Cesarean Prevention and Vaginal Birth after Cesarean (VBAC)

My Homebirth after Preterm Classical Cesarean - Issue 47, Natural Mother Magazine

The Brewer Pregnancy Diet

Blue Ribbon Baby Pages

The VBAC Link Blog: 

Birth After Premature Cesarean

C-Section Incision Types: Learn More About Special Scars

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome, welcome. It is Women of Strength Wednesday and you are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Meagan is here with me today. We have a really neat story for you today. It’s been a while since we have had somebody on our podcast with a special scar, which is a scar that is different than the low, vertical incision or the bikini cut scar that most parents have when they get a Cesarean.

Meagan: More horizontal, you mean?

Julie: Yeah. Did I say vertical?

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie. Oh, well.

Meagan: That’s okay.

Julie: Different than the low, horizontal incision that most parents get when they have a C-section. There are lots of different types of special scars. This type that we are talking about today is a classical incision which means it’s over the top of the uterus and it goes vertical down the belly, or down the uterus rather. Sometimes it’s vertical on the belly and sometimes it’s not It just depends. But I’m really excited because Breana, our guest today, is from Pennsylvania. I’m actually just going to read her bio and what she wrote.

Before I go into that and introduce her, I want to have Meagan share a Review of the week with us.

Meagan: Okay. This is from Gaby and she is on Apple Podcasts and her subject is “Hopeful for a VBAC.” She says, “I feel so lucky to have the time and space each evening (after my littlest has gone to bed) to listen to the meaningful and beautiful birth stories on The VBAC Link. I am hopeful for a VBAC in early September after having a traumatic birth story with my first child. Whatever this new story holds, I will be able to handle it better because I educated myself with this podcast. Thank you for sharing these stories with us all.”

I am assuming that was-- let’s see. That was July 4th of last year, so she has had her baby by now.

Julie: Are we going to stalk people?

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say. We are either going to have to stalk her on The VBAC Link Community on our Facebook. If you are not on that, definitely tune in to that on Facebook. Just search The VBAC Link Community, answer the questions, and we will make sure to get you in there. It’s an amazing community and yeah, Gaby. If you are still listening, email us. We would love to hear how things went and yeah. I’m going to turn the time back over to you, Julie.

Julie: All right. Here we go. Breana is really, really incredible. Her story is really awesome and I am just going to read her little bio for you because I don’t think I could say it better myself. She says, “My name is Breana and I am a wife and stay-at-home mom of two girls. In April 2018, my first daughter was delivered at just 24 weeks due to severe preeclampsia via a classical Cesarean.”

I’m just going to do a little pause there for a minute. She had a preterm Cesarean and it’s a classical incision with a special scar. This is kind of a big deal. We have a blog about birth after premature Cesarean and also about special scars, but she has both of these.

So she says, “I was told I would never be allowed to carry past 36 weeks and that I would need repeat Cesareans for all future babies or I would have a uterine rupture due to the classical incision I have been given. After much searching, I discovered the Brewer diet for preeclampsia and the Special Scar Organization, both of which were answers to my prayers. In August 2020, after a healthy, full-term pregnancy, I had a lovely home birth after classical Cesarean with wonderful, Amish midwives.”

Okay. I want to pick apart all of these things and talk about them. But instead of doing that and taking up the whole time, I am going to turn the time over to Breana and let her share her wonderful story because this is a must-listen, I think, for everybody because it covers so many things. And then after she is done sharing her story, we are going to pick something to talk about.

Breana: Okay, thank you so much. Yeah. My name is Breana. I have been married to my husband, Michael, for almost four years. I am a stay-at-home mom of two beautiful girls and we live near Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In November 2017, I got pregnant with my first baby. I was seeing midwives at a birth center in Pittsburgh for prenatal care and was planning to have an unmedicated birth at the center, but I had a really difficult pregnancy from the start and was dealing with severe morning sickness, like, vomiting every day several times a day. It was really hard for me to eat due to that and I think that my empty stomach was only making me sicker, but I didn’t realize it at the time.

As a result, I wasn’t being well-nourished. That was a really bad start. When morning sickness didn’t go away by the second trimester, I expressed to the midwives my symptoms, which were severe nausea, persistent, debilitating migraines, and swelling. The midwives just dismissed my symptoms as common side effects of pregnancy and they blamed my migraines on hormonal changes.

They told me to take Tylenol along with caffeinated coffee for the migraine and they assured me that the nausea would probably ease up soon. But by mid-April, I had a prenatal visit which included routine testing for which I was instructed to fast. When I got to that appointment, I was feeling really hungry, tired, and weak. When the midwife took my blood pressure, she looked shocked and asked if I was feeling all right. I remember being sort of frustrated and saying, “No. I really don’t feel well, which is what I have been trying to tell you for weeks.” But they had acted like it was all normal and no big deal. I just thought, “Okay, I guess this is how pregnancy is for everyone.”

It was my first pregnancy, so after taking my blood pressure a few times, it was still super high and was what they considered to be within the hypertensive crisis zone. It was 180/110. After a quick urine dip test, they concluded that I needed to go immediately to the hospital for some additional tests and monitoring.

That’s how it was put to me, so I really didn’t understand the fullness of the situation or realize how it serious it was. I imagined that I would just go in for a quick ultrasound, or blood test, or something and be home by that evening. But obviously, that wasn’t the case. When I arrived at the hospital, they told me they were surprised I hadn’t already had a stroke and said I needed to go to the ICU immediately.

Meagan: Whoa, scary.

Breana: Yeah. They told me I had to be prepared for an emergency C-section at any moment and that I would not be leaving that hospital pregnant. So it was extremely scary to have all of that thrown at me out of the blue. They told me that I had severe preeclampsia for which there was no known cause or cure and that the only possible way to save mine and the baby’s life was to deliver as soon as possible. They said there was this fine balance between giving my baby as much time to develop as possible and also not holding off so long that my body would begin to shut down from the preeclampsia.

I was admitted to the hospital on a Tuesday and my daughter was born on the Friday afternoon. We spent four days in the hospital leading up to the C-section. By Friday afternoon, we were told that delivery could no longer be held off and that my daughter’s best chance was for me to have a C-section immediately. I expressed to them my wish to give birth vaginally, but I was told that she may not survive a vaginal birth. So it was a recommendation that we proceed with a C-section. They explained to me that given the extreme prematurity of my pregnancy, they would probably have to do a classical C-section so as not to risk cutting the major uterine arteries on my under-developed lower segment.

They said that would mean a vertical incision on the upper portion of my uterus, which came with more risk and will make it impossible for me to ever deliver vaginally for future pregnancies. Obviously, the idea was pretty horrifying to me not only because surgery was my worst fear, but also because I had really wanted an unmedicated, natural birth and I was crushed at the prospect of never, ever getting to experience that.

I was super hesitant after hearing that and my mind was reeling. Then, they told me that if I didn’t consent to the C-section right then and there, they would have to do one anyway, but in that case, there would be no time to give me an epidural, so I would be put under general, which I was terrified of, and also that they would definitely have to give me a classical, but that if I consented now, we would have more time to take it slow and maybe do the low transverse after all.

Looking back, there was definitely a lot of pressure and I wasn’t really in my right mind because of all the drugs they had me on. It was honestly a struggle even to keep my eyes open. I asked that my husband and I be left alone so that we can think about what to do. I was a young 20-year-old, first-time mom and was trusting that the experts knew best. Obviously, I mean, I would have cut off my limbs if they told me it was necessary to save my baby’s life, so I was willing to do anything they said.

Our daughter, Aurora, was born at 24 weeks weighing just 1 pound, 8 ounces, and measuring 12 inches from head to heel. We only got to see her for a brief moment before she was whisked off to the NICU, so there was no immediate skin-to-skin whatsoever. I couldn’t see her for probably the first 12 hours and they didn’t let me hold her for over two weeks. Even after that, it was often a fight with the NICU. So I often felt really alone trying to be an advocate during that time. She had a lot to overcome in the NICU and we ultimately spent 104 days there.

She was born in April and we didn’t get to take her home until August. When we finally did leave, a respiratory therapist who had been there at the beginning told me he hadn’t thought she was going to live more than a few days. But she is two now and has absolutely no health problems at all which is really remarkable for a baby born so premature.

Meagan: That’s awesome. Yeah.

Breana: She’s so smart, and beautiful, and healthy and we are so, so proud of her and just so thankful to God for getting us through such a challenging time. I was also able to exclusively breastfeed her which I had been told wouldn’t be possible with a micro-preemie and I was actually laughed at when I let the NICU know I was staying full-time so that I could be with her and breastfeed her. So I just want to encourage other NICU moms to fight for and advocate for their babies in the NICU.

I want to mention that during the four days leading up to the C-section, I was confined to a bed with IVs and constant monitoring. I was denied all food and drink during that time. I was absolutely starving and so thirsty but was told that it was too dangerous for me to eat in case we needed to suddenly rush in and do a C-section, in which case my stomach would need to be empty.

Of course, it was really frustrating to try and go along with that reasoning when the days kept ticking by and a C-section just wasn’t happening, and all the while I was starving and just feeling weaker and weaker. I was also given magnesium sulfate through my IVs to prevent convulsions and diuretics to flush fluid out of my lungs.

Julie: Oh my gosh, that is the worst.

Meagan: Yucky.

Julie: So awful.

Breana: Yeah. I’ve since learned that diuretics are contraindicated during pregnancy due to their ability to deplete blood volume expansion and preeclampsia, which, of course, was the entire reason I was there in the first place. But essentially, they gave me a drug that accelerated the problem and it was within just hours of receiving the diuretic that they told me the C-section could no longer be put off and it was the only way to save my baby’s life.

Julie: That makes so much sense. I had preeclampsia with my first and I had the magnesium sulfate drip during labor and my preeclampsia got way worse the first week after he was born than it had been my entire pregnancy. I was swollen up like the Michelin Man, or whatever you call it. All the way up from my feet to my legs were swollen up like a balloon and listen to that. I am just reading about the Brewer’s diet and I am super intrigued. So we are going to talk about that when you are done, but I am not going to keep interrupting I am going to let you go on with your story right now.

Breana: Thank you. I am trying to pack it all in and not be a chatterbox the whole time, but thank you for giving me the time.

Yeah, so that was terrible and again, I was a first-time mom and I was just like, “Okay, I am at the hospital. They are supposed to help me. They obviously know more than I do, so I’m just going to trust them.” When I’m asked if I think my C-section was unnecessary, I hesitate to answer because the C-section itself may have been necessary at that point, but only because of the improper care I received leading up to it.

I was admitted into the hospital for preeclampsia symptoms, given high doses of magnesium sulfate, of which a side effect is breathing difficulties. Then, I was given a diuretic for problems rel to breathing difficulties and I was then given a C-section for severe preeclampsia symptoms, which the diuretic is known to exasperate.

So this is a quote, I am going to read it real quick, from the documentary “The Business of Being Born”, which I think is a really great thing. Everyone should watch. It sums up how I feel about my experience. It says, “Step-by-step, one intervention leads to a series of interventions and then that result is the mother finally ends up with a Cesarean and everybody says, ‘Thank God we were able to do all the interventions to save your baby.’ But the fact of the matter is, if they hadn’t started the cascade of interventions in the first place, none of that would have been necessary.” 

So obviously, I was extremely sick when I arrived at the hospital and something needed to be done for me, but based on the studying I’ve since done regarding the decades of research on preeclampsia, I believe that ensuring I received proper nutrition should have been the first order of business that day instead of what did happen, which, unfortunately, was the opposite. My C-section recovery was pretty brutal. I had never experienced pain like that and I haven’t since. The hours immediately after the surgery consisted of me going into shock and having persistent vomiting and dry heaving that I couldn’t get under control which was pretty excruciating since I had just been freshly stitched up. It took a while, probably weeks, for me to be able to stand and walk without wincing in pain. It was not an easy recovery.

When I was counseled in the ICU after the C-section, I was told that I had indeed been given and a classical incision after all which meant I would now need repeat C-section’s at 36 weeks for all future deliveries and that under no circumstances will I ever be able to labor because the risk of uterine rupture was just too great for me. I was told this by doctors who claimed to be very VBAC supportive. They told me that I was not a candidate because I had a classical scar.

The way they talked made me feel like I had been given this crazy, outdated procedure and was now forever damaged, so that was really hard to work through. But it also got me thinking about how if this procedure was, in fact, so outdated, then what about the women who had a VBAC in the early 1900s? I thought they had to have existed and wouldn’t that mean that someone somewhere must have done it?

Another thing they told me upon discharge was that it was likely that I would get preeclampsia again and there was nothing that could be done since there was no known cause or cure other than delivery.

So now, I was pretty terrified of getting pregnant again, but at that time, I just had to focus on my daughter who was in critical condition in the NICU. When we got home from the NICU, I looked everywhere and I couldn’t find any stories of anyone who had had a VBAC with a classical scar, so that was pretty discouraging. Everyone has the low transverse scar and everything I came across just said what I had been told before which was that classical scars could never, ever VBAC. Basically, it seemed to be a unanimous consensus that VBACs can and do happen, however, I was just that one exception.

Eventually, I think after searching the keyword “classical VBAC”, I came across the book online called Silent Knife. I hadn’t even read it yet and I didn’t know what it had to say about classical scars, but I thought, “What the heck? I will see if I can find this author on Facebook.” I did find her and she ended up being a practicing midwife in Boston, actually, the midwife who coined the term “VBAC”. 

I ended up sending a message to her asking if she had ever known anyone to have a VBAC with a classical scar. She got back to me and told me that yes, many women with my kind of scar go on to have a lovely, normal, natural birth and I had to reread her message a couple of times. I was in shock. I actually cried because it was the first time I ever heard a “yes” from a birth worker like that. I was like, “Did she understand my question? Is this really what she is saying to me?”

She was so wonderful and was willing to speak with me over the phone. She connected me to a couple of underground or non-traditional midwives over the country who were maybe closer to me or maybe willing to travel to me when I did decide to get pregnant again. This was around the time I also found the Special Scars Special Hope organization which was extremely helpful to me. I no longer felt like this freak who was the only person since 1950 to have been given this scar. I now could connect with thousands of other women all over the world who were like me and had all been told the same thing, that we couldn’t VBAC, yet many of them had gone on to have their VBACs, so I was just so thrilled and so encouraged to get to talk with him and hear their stories.

Of course, it was around that time I also stumbled upon The VBAC Link, which was just another amazing resource for me and I was so encouraged by these other women’s stories. I couldn’t believe how much I was able to relate to them. I listened to it every day as I made dinner or folded laundry, so being on the other side of it like this is just really so surreal. I especially enjoyed the special scars episodes and was so grateful to your guys for including special scars and not leaving us out due to the negative stigma that surrounds it. 

I want to take a brief moment to hopefully sum up what I was referring to earlier when I spoke of the decades of research on preeclampsia.

One of the things I came across when searching for answers about preeclampsia was the Brewer diet. I don’t like to refer to it as a diet because really, it’s just a nutritional outline to ensure your body is well-supported for pregnancy. The creator of the diet, Dr. Tom Brewer, was an obstetrician who, in the late 1960s and early 70s, formulated a nutritional guideline based on his findings as well as decades of research from other doctors. Of some 7000 pregnant women whose care Dr. Brewer oversaw, only 0.5% ever presented with mild symptoms of preeclampsia. He eradicated preeclampsia in populations where it had previously been upwards of 40%, which is really remarkable.

I strongly encourage everyone to look into the diet. Once you understand the science behind the physiology of pregnancy, it becomes obvious why the Brewer diet has been so successful. I’ve run into a few people who have insisted that preeclampsia can’t be prevented or reversed with diet since it hasn’t been accepted by mainstream medicine. This is largely due to the fact that Dr. Brewer found it unethical to conduct a placebo study. He was also a champion for racial equality which, sadly, I believe played a part in his work being snubbed and overlooked, particularly because of the social climate of his day.

I’ve always been puzzled by those who claim that diet has nothing to do with preeclampsia. Why would anyone argue the fact that a healthy diet promotes health? Why would you be so eager to dismiss the theory when the alternative is basically just accepting defeat? What I mean by that is that currently mainstream medicine has no answers and says there is no cure for preeclampsia, yet it is among the most common complications of pregnancy, affecting thousands of mothers annually.

The unfortunate truth is, no one makes money from a healthy person which I, unfortunately, personally believe is one of the driving factors why the Brewer diet is ignored. But nevertheless, I encourage everyone to, at the very least, look into it and see what it’s about. Dr. Brewer wrote several books and there is a free website and Facebook group called Dr. Brewer Pregnancy Nutrition that was incredibly helpful to me. Without the Brewer diet and the support I received from the ladies in that group, my VBAC would not have been possible. So it was really important to me to just take a minute to talk about that.

After I had studied so much and been blessed with all the support and information surrounding preeclampsia and VBACs, I began to get to the source of my fears regarding another pregnancy. I realized I was letting this fear dictate my life since my husband and I knew we wanted a family and we believe children are a blessing and a reward from God. So after a lot of prayer, my husband and I felt convicted to just entrust our family planning to God.

At that point, I felt like I at least had a rough game plan as to how a second pregnancy would look going forward. I happened to get pregnant again in November 2019, so my due date was within days of when my first son had been. It was incredibly healing for me to be able to continue to carry that pregnancy full-term and pass those year marks from two years before.

I planned to follow the Brewer diet, which I did, and I fully believe it is the reason I was able to have a successful, full-term second pregnancy completely free of preeclampsia. I did have some brutal morning sickness again, but this time, I knew how to manage it much better by eating small, healthy snacks and not really allowing my stomach to get empty. I think that helped me a lot.

I initially thought I would have an unassisted birth because no hospital was willing to let me VBAC on a classical scar and I honestly felt pretty let down by those I had put my trust in the first time, so I didn’t really want to give birth in a hospital anyway. I did have contacts with midwives in other states that I mentioned before, but honestly, I knew I wanted to labor alone and undisturbed for the most part, so it felt silly for me to hire a midwife from a few states away and go through the whole process of having her stay with us just to make her wait in the other room while I labored. So ultimately, I decided to contact the Amish.

I have gone to Amish country for festivals and stuff since I was a kid and I thought, “Okay. The Amish must be having home births. So, who is helping them?” I had this crazy idea to ask my friend if she could give me the address for one of the Amish guys that worked on her house. I thought, “What do I really have to lose by writing a letter to his wife and asking her who her midwife is?” So that’s what I did. This Amish family, they were just so kind and went out of their way to connect me with the Amish midwife who had been a midwife for 40 some years and attended hundreds of birth a year, upwards of 100 births a year. So she had a lot of experience.

She was a gem and I was so fortunate. That midwife works with a non-Amish doula who is also a midwife learning and working with the Amish community. The Amish family told me that yes, the midwives were willing to assist a Yankee woman. That’s what they call us non-Amish and they gave me the doula’s phone number. I gave her a call and I remember hearing it ringing and thinking, “This is so dumb. She’s going to hang up on me when I tell her I have a classical scar. Why am I even bothering?” 

But to my surprise, she didn’t hang up on me. She actually asked, “When would be good for us to meet in person?” She also let me know that there was an Amish woman in their community who had had three home births after an inverted T incision and would be willing to meet with me as well after some encouragement and support. That was the first time I actually met another person in real life, not online, who had a special scar. That meant a lot to me. It was really just crazy how it worked out. It felt really meant to be. I felt so secure and comforted with them whenever I met them.

Meagan: I love that.

Breana: They were so respectful of my wishes throughout the whole pregnancy as well as the birth. They were hands-off when I wanted them to be and hands-on when I needed them to be. I didn’t want any ultrasounds or testing at all and they were okay with that. I took my own blood pressure and weight, and our prenatal visits were super laid-back just in my living room. It was amazing. I really couldn’t have asked for anything better. 

So when I was 38 weeks and 2 days, I went into labor at about noon on a Saturday. You know what they say about a full moon and it actually was a full moon that weekend. My birth was one of four or five that my midwives attended that weekend.

Anyway, I didn’t recognize that it was real labor at first. I just thought Braxton Hicks or something, but I didn’t take it too seriously until the time when I was literally on my bed moaning and I acknowledged, “Okay, maybe this is real.” About that time, I went to the bathroom and realized I was losing my mucus plug.

I let my doula know what was going on and it was the middle of the night at that point. I told her I wanted to labor undisturbed anyway, so they didn’t have to bother coming just yet. My contractions were mainly felt in my lower back and wrapped around, so what I really had, for the most part, was back labor. At this time, I was having contractions three to four minutes apart. I was just laying on my bed trying to relax my body as much as possible and even sleep in between contractions when I could. 

At that point, everything I had learned from HypnoBirthing became really valuable and helpful to me. My husband pressed the heating pad into my lower back each time I had a contraction and that counterpressure was really what got me through. I also alternated from the bed to the shower and would run the hot water on my back.

So that was how I spent most of the night and my contractions were three to four minutes apart most of the time. Eventually, I could tell I was entering transition because I was getting chills and shaky legs and it was getting so much harder for me to work through my contractions. So I told my doula that I would like for them to come at that point.

I think it was about 5:00 a.m. by the time they ran to my house and there were three of them. I had the older, Amish midwife who I had first mentioned, the non-Amish doula and midwife, and the Amish woman who had had three homebirths on her inverted T scar because she had offered to come to my birth and I was really happy to take her up on it. Her additional support and encouragement just meant so much to me and I knew that she really got it. She knew what it was like because she herself had done it and she is also my sister in Christ. They all are. So the whole thing was just such a blessing.

When they arrived, they offered to check my cervix to see how far dilated I was which I didn’t want. I was also nervous that I would get discouraged if it was a lower number, I would have a hard time, so I told her I wanted her to check, but not to tell me the number. She checked and told me she really didn’t think I was going to be disappointed, so would I like her to tell me? And I said, “Yes.” She told me I was 9 centimeters and that my cervix was paper-thin.

She told me that she could feel the baby’s head under the bag of waters and she offered to break my waters if that’s what I wanted because the pressure of the waters had made me feel a little more pushy than I was. I just really didn’t want any interventions at all though, so I opted to labor somewhere and let my body do its own thing. I sent them downstairs and it was just my husband and me again since our two-year-old had been sleeping this whole time. My midwives did my dishes and made breakfast. It’s funny because that’s what I love about home births, just how laid-back and normal it is.

So eventually after laboring in bed somewhere, I was laying on my side, my husband was doing the counterpressure with a heating pad and I was working through a contraction, and I heard a loud pop and a splash because my waters had broken. I did swell up right after that just because of the rush of hormones, but after that, I felt so much better. I was just really glad that I had waited for it to happen on its own because that’s the way that I wanted.

At that point, I was feeling like I could push and I ultimately pushed for a good two hours. I pushed on the bed and the shower, leaning on my husband, leaning on my doula, and the yoga ball, and the toilet, and everything.

Eventually, I was just so exhausted that I crawled back into bed and I was kind of on my side, kind of on my back and one of them suggested I try using a towel to play tug-of-war to help direct my pushes. I was just so tired from being up all night and pushing for so long. I had been laboring for 21 hours at that point, so the tug-of-war trick really worked for me. It was probably within minutes that she was born. We named her Athena and she weighed 9 pounds, 4 ounces, and was 21 inches long. Her size was such a lovely surprise, especially considering that she was born at 38+3. My midwife said, “Just imagine how much more she might have weighed had she come out any later.”

But ultimately, it was just a really amazing experience. She was born on a Sunday morning and we just checked the time on my husband‘s watch. It was just so laid-back and exactly how I hoped it would be, but probably better than I hoped it would be. After it happened, I just laid there thinking, “I can’t believe this actually happened. I can’t believe I really did it.” You know, after you have been told you can’t do something how many times, that moment was just-- I felt amazing. I was able to pull her up to my chest for skin-to-skin immediately. I was able to breastfeed right away and they left us alone. We put off the weighing and the measuring and everything for a little while because I just really wanted that golden hour to be undisturbed and I wanted to do delayed cord clamping. 

My older daughter was able to come to meet her right away because she happened to wake up right after she was born which was perfect timing. I didn’t have any tears, which I was pretty grateful for with an over 9-pound baby. I was pretty sore from all of that pushing, but honestly, my postpartum was a breeze, and just a couple of days later, I was walking her down the street to show her off to my neighbors, so I felt pretty good. It was just an amazing experience. I am so grateful for the support I had and the opportunity to have such a restorative experience.

I told myself that if I ever got to have a VBAC, I was going to make a big deal about it so no one else would have such a hard time finding answers like I did. So I just really appreciate this opportunity to share more than you know and I thank you guys for all you do. It really does make a difference. It definitely, definitely did with all those episodes. I’m almost done, but I did write down some key takeaways that I wanted to sum up for the listeners if that’s okay.

The first one is, your body was carefully designed by a creator who loves you. He didn’t forget anything or leave anything out. Bodies heal and a scar on your uterus does not mean you are any less capable than the next woman in doing what your body was designed to do. Along those lines, something that I think maybe subconsciously made an impact on me was that when I was a teenager, I got to witness one of my younger brothers be born in the car on the way to the birth center. I think that that experience showed me how when left alone, birth really is, for the most part, simple and straightforward. I think what I took from one of your older episodes was the idea that if I were to do nothing and not schedule a repeat C-section like they were telling me I had to do, then my body would instinctively know what to do and would give birth vaginally. Obviously, uterine rupture does happen it should be taken seriously, but so should the risk of multiple Cesareans.

That should always be an individual choice, not one for your doctors to make for you. The other thing that I had was to know what you want and fight for it. Find a provider who will meet your needs and respect your authority and choices even if it means thinking outside the box, like writing a letter to the Amish. You don’t need anyone’s permission to use your own vagina. I also wrote an article that’s in Issue 47 of Natural Mother magazine if anyone is interested in reading some things I may not have covered on this episode. But that was all the bullet points I had written down to share, so thank you for letting me ramble on that entire time.

Julie: No, we love it. You have lots of good information in that episode. I feel like we almost don’t have to do any educational piece, but I want to talk about something that we don’t talk about a lot on our podcast. But before I get into that, I want to let you know that we have a blog about VBAC after premature Cesarean and about special scars that you can find by going to our website thevbaclink.com/blog and just in the search bar, typing those terms in, and it will pull the blogs right up. It will give you all the information you want to know.

But I want to talk about diet during pregnancy. We have one podcast about pregnancy nutrition. We have a blog about pregnancy nutrition. Normally Meagan is the nutrition/exercise guru of the bunch, but I am going to kind of take over this time on that topic because I was reading some really interesting things about the Brewer diet while Breana was sharing her story with us. 

So I wanted to go through and just talk about a few fun little statistics that I found and we will cite these in the show notes. The first one is from the website drbrewerpregnancydiet.com. There is a tab called “Preeclampsia” on the left-hand side. Click on that tab and it talks all about the Brewer diet in relation to preeclampsia. There’s a lot of content taken from books on the subject, and studies, and things like that. A lot of the information is outdated, but nutritional needs are still pretty consistent, I think, across-the-board. There’s also a lot of up-to-date information in there as well. 

But I wanted to point out a couple of things. So first of all, we know that the medical system is more likely to recommend prescription medications and medical treatments to prevent and treat things than they are to recommend food to treat things.

But on this website, drbrewerpregnancydiet.com, on the left-hand side, click “Preeclampsia”. It’s really, really interesting because like I was saying before, the medical system will recommend prescription drugs. They will recommend early delivery. They will recommend all sorts of medicalized things to take care of whatever it is that we are dealing with, but the medical system is not designed in a way to set up proper nutrition to help heal your body with food and to help you learn how to eat better and do better so that your pregnancy can avoid these things in the first place. It’s just not the same that way. It would kind of hurt itself by preventing the things that it is being paid to treat. Not that I’m against the medical system because I am very grateful for when it is needed, but I think there needs to be a really good balance between treating your body naturally and then using the medical system we need to.

It’s really funny because the medical system, or scientists, or doctors generally claim that we don’t know what causes preeclampsia. We think it might have something to do with when the placenta is developing, but we can’t really pinpoint a cause. But Dr. Tom Brewer, the obstetrician, has pretty good logic about what causes preeclampsia. I’m just going to read a quote here from him on that website I was just telling you about. 

He says, “Low blood volume, which is the inevitable result of dehydration and the use of diuretics contributes directly to eclampsia, premature birth, and low birth weight. And now, there is a whole group of hypertension drugs that have come out in the last 10 to 15 years. These drugs just ravage women. They cause direct damage to all of the cells in the mother’s body, particularly to the liver, a little to the kidneys, and then to the placenta and fetus.”

It’s really interesting because like you were saying earlier, diuretics, excessive doses of magnesium and things like that prevent the body from being efficient in the blood flow and it inhibits the blood from getting to the fetus, to the placenta, and to the uterus, which all are really critical for helping baby grow, right?

It’s really interesting in here because he says-- I’m just reading on his website and then, let’s see. Where did it go? “The cause of preeclampsia was discovered in the 1950s and 1960s,” and I read that I was like, “Wait a minute. Doctors don’t know what causes preeclampsia, right?” But, listen to this. “Preeclampsia is caused by abnormal blood volume, which is caused by malnutrition or food deficiency.”

Now listen, it might seem strange to you. Like with me, I’m like, “I was definitely not starving myself when I was pregnant with my first baby,” because I had preeclampsia with my first and I was definitely eating lots of food, but I was working really hard and I would eat a salad for lunch thinking I was being healthy, right? But when you deprive your body of the critical nutrients that it needs, it doesn’t matter what you are eating, but if you’re not eating foods that are rich and nutrient-dense, then you are malnourished. And when you’re not drinking enough water, your blood volume can’t increase in the way that it needs to in order to effectively and healthily support you, a healthy placenta, and a healthy baby. 

So it’s really interesting because it talks about how this particular diet that he recommends following really helps the blood volume expansion. I mean, there is a whole bunch of sciencey stuff in here that I could go on, but basically eating a high protein diet with lots of salt helps the body create the blood volume that it needs to sustain the pregnancy which essentially prevents preeclampsia and other blood-related issues.

I definitely need to learn more about it and I encourage you to read more about it too, but it shows some really interesting statistics here, where normally we think like, “Oh, salt is bad. Salt is bad. Salt is bad.” But in pregnancy, salt is necessary for us to remain hydrated and again, for our circulatory system, and for our overall well-being. They compare studies of people that were on a high salt diet versus a low salt diet and the outcomes are way better on the high salt diet. Instances of preeclampsia were 37 per 1000 in the high salt diet versus a low salt diet had 97 in 1000 cases. So, three times more likely to get preeclampsia according to this study when you eat a low salt diet. Isn’t that interesting?

It also goes on to compare perinatal deaths, C-sections, and placenta abruption which are all significantly higher in the low salt diet group. But the Brewer’s diet is not just about drinking lots of water, and eating protein, and increasing your salt intake, but there are some really cool things that they recommend eating including eggs, milk, meat, and fish every day. Dark, green, leafy vegetables, lots of vitamin C sources, nice, healthy grains, servings of healthy fats and oils, and vitamin A are all things that he recommends in the Brewer’s diet. 

Now, Dr. Brewer‘s website is called the Blue Ribbon Baby Pages, but that website has been archived now so it’s not an active website, but you can still find it if you search “Blue Ribbon Baby Pages”. That website is directly authored by him. There are lots of spreadsheets and checklists and things like that if you want to follow that diet because what that diet does is, it helps your body increase the blood volume that it needs to sustain a healthy pregnancy. 

Now my mind is spinning in all of these different ways because there were things I did in my second pregnancy to avoid getting preeclampsia and a lot of it-- I didn’t follow the Brewer diet as described here, but a lot of it was following these recommendations. Plenty of water, making sure I am staying hydrated, not limiting my salt intake, and eat lots of protein, especially eggs. I ate eggs like crazy when I was pregnant with my second. It is just really, really interesting. 

I know that-- trust me. I was just sitting here eating a pint of Ben & Jerry’s ice cream when we were recording our last episode, so I am definitely not the epitome of health. And so, it can feel overwhelming. I know especially when you’re pregnant you’re like, “Oh my gosh. Do I really have to make all these diet changes? Am I going to ruin my baby if I don’t follow this very strict diet? Or how much water do I need to drink or how much protein do I need to eat?” It is so easy to get overwhelmed, right? Because I know that I do and I am not even pregnant right now. 

But this is the thing. The Brewer diet is a nice, healthy diet. It goes right along with the guidelines that are recommended to just maintain health overall. It follows what ACOG’s recommendations are for a healthy pregnancy. It just expands on that a little bit more and there is some really solid evidence to support following this diet drastically improves birth outcomes. But you don’t have to go making all these big changes. You don’t have to go from eating a pint of Ben & Jerry’s a day-- no, I don’t eat a pint a day. Eating Ben & Jerry’s ice cream and to a complete 180 never eating anything with sugar in it ever again.

Just making small changes in your diet, incorporating more nutrient-rich foods like healthy meat, healthy fats, lots of green, leafy vegetables, and vitamin A, and vitamin C supplements are going to do better. So focus on adding things into your diet more than you focus on taking things out would be my advice from a not-so-healthy mom to maybe other not-so-healthy moms right now. 

Meagan, what would you add? Are you completely embarrassed by my nutritional advice?

Meagan: No, no. I think it is so important. This is not in conjunction with preeclampsia. It is in conjunction with how we as women in the world sometimes, our minds just go because being skinny, and not gaining too much weight, and bouncing back, and being back in our jeans and-- you know what I mean? There’s so much pressure in a lot of things. So when it comes to VBAC, I have personally had clients be like, “Well, my baby was so big last time and I was overweight, so I had better not eat.” 

I had a client specifically, one client that literally starved herself her entire pregnancy because she said, “I can’t have a big baby because if I have a big baby, I won’t have a VBAC, and then they won’t let me, and if they think my baby is big, then I won’t, and if I gain too much weight, then they will just tell me I am fat, and then I can’t have my VBAC,” and I am just like--

Julie: Did she have high blood pressure or preeclampsia or gestational diabetes?

Meagan: So the crazy thing, she actually did have a repeat Cesarean. Her body tapped out because it wasn’t fueled. And so, it’s just in general. We need to fuel our bodies. But in life, because there’s so much pressure to be skinny and all of these things, right? And not gain too much weight, we cut, like you were saying, we cut out our nutrients that are insanely needed. And so, if we are cutting it out before we even get pregnant, because a lot of people are like, “Oh, I want to lose this weight before I get pregnant,” and then they get pregnant, and then they were cutting out these things and not adding those necessary things like the Brewer diet talks about, it is important to understand how it can truly impact you, your baby, your outcome, etc. 

We don’t know the exact cause of preeclampsia, but there are things that we were going over and were shared in this story. There are things that we can do to help that have been proven to help. And so, why not do these things and pay attention to these things? I just think it is so important in general. Pregnancy, not pregnant, preeclampsia, diabetes, anything. Fuel your body because your body gives you so much and we are asking so much of our bodies every day to perform. If we cut what it needs, it is not fair to ask that. Does that make sense? Is that silly to say?

Julie: Yeah. I just think like-- I have anxiety. Everybody knows that by now. I have a very anxious mind. I just think of when my mind gets anxious, it is because there are things going on that are influencing it, right? I liken that to not feeding your body. It’s like those outside things influencing my anxious mind.

Not fueling your body does not allow your body to perform well. It doesn’t allow it to function effectively, just like your mind. With my mind, with my anxiety, when my anxiety is high, the whole world is falling apart. It doesn’t even matter if nothing is a big deal, but everything feels like a big deal. And so, when you are depriving your body of those nutrients, even the smallest thing your body is working hard to do will feel like a big deal to it. It can exhaust it and it can make it harder for it to do normal things when it's most important thing to do is growing your baby.

Meagan: Yeah. I love everything that Breana was talking about. It doesn’t matter who you are. Check it out. Just check it out. It doesn’t do you any harm to check it out.

Julie: Yeah, you can just Google “The Brewer Diet.” It is Brewer. I know we say Brewer’s because I like it to be possessive, but it is by Tom Brewer.

Meagan: It’s because, in my head, I think Brewer’s Yeast, so I say Brewer’s. It is Brewer.

Julie: Brewer. B-R-E-W-E-R. Take a look at that. It looks like a really good, healthy diet. So, good thing to do. Take care of your body. Keep nourishing those babies and improve your chances of lots of different birth outcomes.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link

Alysa is a prime example of how every birth is its own unique story. With her first birth, Alysa had a very medicalized vaginal birth. During her second pregnancy, Alysa unexpectedly developed placenta previa, resulting in weeks of hospital bed rest and a very necessary Cesarean. After knowing firsthand how unpredictable birth can be, Alysa’s third birth was exactly the empowering, unmedicated VBAC she had envisioned. 

We also talk about placenta previa and accreta-- what it is, how severe it can be, and what the chances are that it will happen to you based on the most current research. 

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

Episode 124: Elyssa’s CBAC + Birthing in a Pandemic

Expecting and Empowered Fitness Guides

National Accreta Foundation

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday. It is The VBAC Link with you today, Meagan and Julie, and of course, we have another amazing story to share with you today. We have our friend, Alyssa, on the line. She actually-- we just were talking about this. She has actually been with us from the beginning, which is so fun to have someone that we recognize and we know. She posts and everything, so thank you, Alyssa, for being so amazing on our social media outlets. We are so excited to have you here today. 

She did have a VBAC and it was after a situation that was unexpected. It is placenta previa. We are going to talk about that as well after she shares her story because this is something that is really necessary to have a Cesarean. It truly is. And so, we want to talk a little bit more about that, what it means, what it looks like, and also touch on placenta accreta and talk about the two differences.

Meagan: Before we jump into the story, of course, we have a Review of the Week. Julie will be sharing that with you today.

Julie: Hey, hey. I am so excited. I really get excited when we interview people that have been with us from the very beginning.

Meagan: It is so fun.

Julie: I recognize Alysa’s Instagram handle and I am like, “I know who you are.” It’s so exciting. But do you know what is also really funny? The review I picked to read for this episode is from-- remember back when we shared my client Elyssa’’s story? Elyssa’s VBAC story? This review from Apple Podcasts is about Elyssa’s story and now, after we read the review about Elyssa’s story, we are going to hear Alysa‘s story.

Meagan: Elyssa, we have Alysa.

Alysa: Perfect.

Julie: So don’t be confused. But this is from Cristin Anna on Apple Podcasts and the title is “Thank you for sharing Elyssa’s story.” She says, “Today I listened to the episode when Elyssa shared her story and I found myself identifying with her story so much, and I cried multiple times as she described how she felt, as it was word-for-word the feelings I felt after my first birth. I planned for a home birth, ended up going two weeks late, and ended up having to have a C-section at the hospital after finally going into labor, but my son’s heartbeat started dropping during contractions.”

“Thank you for allowing Elyssa to share her story. The fact that she was able to share her second Cesarean and the fact that it wasn’t like the first one gives me hope that even if for some reason my VBAC is not successful, I can still have a better experience than my first birth.

I struggled with feeling like a failure after my first birth and hearing from her, (and from you guys) that she did what she needed to do for her baby, and she is not a failure, but was still able to exercise her own power during her labor, was all so encouraging. I think reminding women who are trying for a VBAC that they aren’t a failure because they weren’t able to have a vaginal birth the first time around is so important and so healing for them. Thank you for empowering women and also encouraging them to do what is needed for their baby.”

And I love that. I love that. We have talked about before how important it is for us to share all of the stories about VBAC with you including VBAC attempts-- I don’t know, for lack of a better word-- that don’t end in a vaginal birth, repeat Cesarean stories, and we even have a couple of uterine rupture stories. We want you to be prepared for all of the different outcomes that your birth could take. And so, we really appreciate that review from Cristin and we obviously appreciate Alysa for sharing her story with us. And now, we are going to hear from Alysa.

Alysa: All right. I just have to say I am so grateful to be with you both. I said before we started that it is just surreal to be talking to you both since I have listened to all of the birth stories. It has meant so much to me through my pregnancy and leading up to this third birth of mine. 

I guess I will start with just a little bit about my first, and obviously second birth, and mostly my third birth, but my first I just wanted to touch on. I did have a vaginal birth with my son, but I was a very typical first-time mom and I just was like, “I will go with the flow and see what happens.” I think for some people that can be okay, but looking back, I wish I knew more. I wish I had a podcast like this that I had listened to or something to just know that--

I knew there was something inside of me that wanted something different for my birth, but I was too afraid to go against the norm or to not be a good patient, which is so silly. It’s funny because I myself am a healthcare provider, but I struggle with that sometimes of not wanting to disappoint my providers. I realize now more than ever that that’s not why they’re there. I wouldn’t want my patients to feel that way. 

So anyway, I had a vaginal birth, but it was very medicalized. I was induced starting at 0 centimeters at 37 weeks for not really great reasons. I ended up getting an epidural and I pushed for almost three hours. He was born. He was healthy and it was great, but it just wasn’t what I wanted. 

So fast forward with my daughter, my second birth. I was so gung-ho. I was going to have a natural birth. I was going to have an unmedicated hospital birth, and I was reading all of the books, and doing all the things, and I got the absolute surprise of my life with that pregnancy. At 20 weeks we did the anatomy ultrasound and they said my placenta was low-lying, which is actually very, very common at the 20-week mark.

So my doctor said, “Don’t worry about it at all. 90% of the time it moves out of the way by the time you deliver, so don’t even stress.” I looked up all of the research on it and it matched what she said so I was like, “Yep. I’m not going to even worry about this.” I exercised. I went on a vacation. We did all of the normal things not worrying about it.

But then at 28 weeks, I was actually at work. Right in the middle of standing up to examine a patient of mine, I felt a gush and then a subsequent gush. I excused myself from the room and I thought initially it was going to be my water, but I looked down and I saw blood pretty much down to mid-thigh.

Meagan: Wow. Scary.

Alysa: Yeah. It was terrifying. The only saving grace was that because I was 28 weeks, I could feel her move so much. I am a relatively petite person, and so I could see her move and I could feel her move, so I got that comfort right away of knowing like, “Okay. She is still doing okay.” But it was a lot of blood. 

And so, we obviously rushed right to the hospital right up to OB and I was admitted for five days. I lost about a unit of blood, but it stopped and it slowed. I got the steroids. I got the whole thing. NICU came in and talked about delivering, but they were able to keep her in there and she did okay. Eventually, I went home with the direction that I could only be within a 20-minute radius of the hospital and, yeah. So we just kind of laid low and then eventually at just shy of 34 weeks, I had my second bleed and my doctor said, “If that happens, this is where you stay now.” So then I stayed in the hospital, had another bleed in the hospital, but eventually did make it to 36 weeks which was the goal, and delivered her by Cesarean. And so like you said, it was a very necessary Cesarean, but it doesn’t certainly mean it was easy by any means.

Meagan: Right.

Alysa: I mean, I had a vision of what my birth was going to be like and it was obviously-- I went from wanting a very hands-off birth to having one of the most hands-on experiences you can have. Being in the hospital for a total of about four weeks over that pregnancy was incredibly hard emotionally, but also just being constantly in the world that things are being done to you was really hard. It was super hard. It made me not want to be anywhere close to that situation again. And so, I knew right away that if I was going to have another birth, I had to have a VBAC and I had to do everything in my power to make sure that was going to happen.

I really thought for me, that was going to be out-of-hospital. That was confirmed when I had an annual physical about a year later and I talked to one of the providers about having a VBAC. I started asking some of the questions really that you guys layout and your resources about how to see if your provider is VBAC tolerant or VBAC friendly. I very quickly found out they were tolerant. I mean, I asked about going past 39 weeks and they were like, “Oh no, no, no, no. But yeah, yeah. We can let you try.” And induction, they just didn’t even really-- yeah.

Meagan: They weren’t following evidence-based practices.

Alysa: No. No, and it was very clear to me that if I attempted to have a VBAC with them, it was not going to happen. So that day I had that appointment, I called-- there is a wonderful, wonderful birth center in my area called Authentic Birth Center, and so I called them and said, “Hey, do you guys even take VBAC people?” They were like, “Yeah, of course.” So I was like, “This is what it is going to be.”

So I got pregnant and started seeing the midwives and they were absolutely wonderful. As you know and you have talked about in other podcasts, this third baby, I had my son and it was COVID, so COVID was part of this journey as well. But I was so, so, so, so grateful that prior to COVID I had already started care with them because during that time with all of the restrictions that were happening in hospitals, there were so many women who were trying to switch it up and change to an out-of-hospital birth. The fact that I was already with them was amazing because they were really struggling to keep up with the amount of women who wanted to switch out of the hospital.

Julie: We saw that a lot here too. A ton of our clients switched. It was just nuts.

Alysa: Mhmm. I can’t imagine. Those midwives were probably just so busy. They have to try to care, they want to care for everyone well, so it’s not like they can take every single person. I just have to say too, and I told my midwives this, but I am so, so grateful that while COVID was going on during my pregnancy and birth, it was never a huge part of my story. I am just so grateful for that-- that they still focused on my healthy pregnancy, my healthy body, this healthy baby and continued to make every appointment about that, about us, and about our care, and about that well-rounded care that midwives are so well-known for. It was so empowering and it was everything I hoped it would be. So I’m just-- I am so grateful.

I did have a lot of anxiety through the pregnancy of feeling like I had all these hurdles to get over in order to make it to my VBAC, which I am sure a lot of women feel with any VBAC, but at the ultrasound, here I am thinking, “Okay, I just have to-- the placenta. Please, please let the placenta not be in the way,” because I knew that there was no changing that and thank God at 20 weeks it wasn’t. It was seven whole centimeters away and I was so, so, so grateful.

Julie: A great distance.

Alysa: Yes, exactly. Every step of the pregnancy was just another hurdle to overcome in my mind. I got to do the glucose tolerance and that was good. My blood pressure kept being good. Baby was head down, and so everything was just lining up.

I guess that brings me towards the end of the pregnancy. I can honestly say that the difference between this pregnancy and my previous two is, I just did so much to prepare between listening to you guys, and general mindfulness, and staying educated on what was true, and then also, I was so physically active. There is a wonderful exercise program called Expecting and Empowered that I absolutely adore and they have a postpartum program too. That helped a ton.

I reread all the typical birth books that were just so helpful too, but definitely towards the end, just lots of mindfulness and lots of visualizing. Visualizing my birth and lots of really just digging into God’s word and his faithfulness. As a Christian, that was a big part of my journey too of trusting in His plan and His amazing way He created women to give birth. So, yeah. 

I guess that leads me to birth. I think I stayed pretty patient. I think the main reason for that too was I was just so grateful to have a really normal pregnancy. I got to all these points in pregnancy where I was like, “Wow. I was in the hospital at this point,” or “I had already had my daughter at this point.” It was just so amazing to be past those dates. 

So I had my son-- I was induced at 37 weeks and my daughter at 36. So once I got past that 37 weeks, I was like, “I have never been this pregnant.” It was also exciting for me in a way. Of course I, like every woman, was ready at the end physically and emotionally, but I was overall just very grateful.

But, yeah. I guess that brings us to the week. The week of my due date, I had days on and off where I would get contractions. I would get contractions, they would be 10 minutes apart, and then 8 minutes, and 10 minutes, and I am like, “Oh, maybe this is turning into something,” and then, of course, I would fizzle out. Then on the Monday prior to my due date, my due date was on a Wednesday, I had an appointment and I was getting a lot of contractions during the appointment. When they were listening to baby, his heart rate was going down during some of the contractions and they didn’t love that. They were like, “How much have you eaten and drank today?” And I hadn’t. I was super slammed at work. Obviously, with COVID, I am a PA. I am a healthcare provider, so COVID was just so stressful for many reasons, but just mentally stressful of everything was going on.

So they said, “Why don’t you come back later so we can just take a listen again?” And so, I drank a bunch, and ate a bunch, and came back later and they were reassured by that. I got to my due date and I was just doing all the things. I was exercising and going on walks, doing squats. I was drinking red raspberry leaf tea. I had been doing dates for weeks in advance. And again, just really trying to prep my mind more than anything. I kept thinking, “If I am so stressed at work, baby is not going to come when I’m stressed. So I need to do everything possible to reduce stress.”

And so, I had decided that week that no matter what, this week was going to be my last week of work. The following week, I was going to be 41 weeks and I’m like, “I just need to not have so much stress.” And so again, that week I had a couple days where I would get some contractions and they would fizzle out. I thought, “Okay. It’s going to happen. Everything that my body is doing, is doing something.” I just need to be happy that it’s doing something. 

My last day of work was Thursday and while I was at work, I was, again, having some of those contractions, but I did not think anything of it. This was the day past my due date. I was 40+1. I was having some contractions on and off, but obviously, I was working, so it wasn’t a big deal. It wasn’t enough to make me stop or really even think that much about it. I literally joked with my coworker like, “I bet since this is my last day of work, when I leave today, I’m going to have this baby.”

I got home at around 6:00 p.m. that night. I walked in the door and I had a contraction that was different. I was like, “That was different.” I sat down at dinner with my husband and my kids. I was noticing, but I didn’t want to say anything quite yet. But I knew it was different. We got the kids to bed and I told my husband, “I think this is it, so let’s start gathering some things.” He’s like, “Don’t you want to actually know if this is it?” I am like, “No. I really think this is it.” He did not understand how you can just know.

Meagan: I swear they never believe. You’re like, “Are you sure?” I am like, “Yeah. I am positive.”

Alysa: Exactly. So right after, I called my midwife and she is like, “Great. Just let things get longer, stronger, closer together. Keep doing your thing.” I went to the bathroom and definitely had more of that bloody show, so I was really encouraged that this was it. So I was like full-on, just packing, getting everything ready, getting all this, and, like I said, this was probably 7:30, 8:00 p.m. Around 8, I finally got everything I wanted together, so I decided, “I’m going to rest.” I laid down on the couch and I told my husband, “Use this contraction timer app. I will tap you,” just so we’d know what was going on.

As soon as I attempted to lay my head on the pillow on my couch, pop. Like, just a major pop. Water gush. I hopped off the couch like a ninja because I did not want to get my couch all messy.

Meagan: You wanted to save it. I would have done the same thing.

Alysa: Yes, exactly. I went into the bathroom and jumped in the tub. It was definitely a lot of water. But the water was-- it did have some meconium in it. It was kind of yellowish. And so, that was the first time I was stressed. Prior to that, I was like, “Everything is exactly how it should be going,” and I felt like I was really handling things well, but then I felt stressed.

I called my midwife right away and I told her what was going on and I was like, “Honestly, I am just really stressed out.” All she said to me was, “Okay. I am not stressed out.” It was just perfect. Her response was perfect.

Meagan: Exactly what you needed.

Alysa: Yes. Yes. And you know, she has had a couple of lines like that through my pregnancy. One other time, I broke down to her about how I felt like there was no way everything was going to go right. I felt like there was no way. Was I being irresponsible with having an out-of-hospital birth after the last birth I had? You know, all these things. All these fears we all have. She just said, “I wouldn’t absolutely love my job, I wouldn’t love doing what I do every single day if I had fear. I have no fear when it comes to you and I love doing my job. And so, we wouldn’t be here and we wouldn’t have you as a patient if anything about you made us afraid.” It was just wonderful. So, she is wonderful.

But back to that night. So since my water broke, we decided to call over a friend so that if we needed to leave quickly, we could. My parents were on their way down too. They live about a couple of hours away. They came over and I was just swaying through the contractions. I was handling things really well. I felt really good. It was really great to be able to. I had really wanted to experience that because I really didn’t get that with my other births.

And so, yeah. I would rock and sway through the contractions. I remember right before we left I went upstairs and my kids were sleeping, and I just checked on both of them and then had a contraction right in their bedroom. It was just, yeah. It was great. I walked outside just to get some fresh air. It was the most beautiful night. It was probably 75°, stars in the sky. It was beautiful. We went through some contractions outside too and then we decided, I decided, “I want to go.” I think at that point, contractions were probably three to four minutes apart and getting close to that one minute but I am like, “I don’t-- I have heard horror stories about the car and so, the sooner we can get there, I think I will feel better.”

Everyone is right about the car. The car was so tough because there’s just no way to get comfortable, but like, again from your podcast, it was so helpful to hear from different people what they had done and I did just that. I got on my knees and I faced backward in the passenger seat because being on your bottom is not fun when you’re having a contraction.

Meagan: No.

Alysa: We got to the birth center and we walked outside for just a little bit more before even going in. I think that was my biggest thing is I just didn’t want to pull everyone together too quickly or something. I didn’t want to waste our time or something. Again, that goes back to me not wanting to be a needy patient or something, which is silly in hindsight. But, I wanted it to be right when we got there. So we walked outside before we actually went in for a little while and then a few more, and then I thought, “Okay. I really need to pee. We have got to get in there. Let’s do this.”

We got in there. My midwife was there. A student-midwife was there and then I had a birth photographer who is also a doula. She wasn’t technically acting as my doula, but she also said, “I am a doula, so anything I can help with along the way if you would like me to, I will.” And so, that was wonderful. So I didn’t really need someone to be super hands-on. My husband was really good about that. Plus, I didn’t really need that a lot in labor and in birth, but she was just wonderful support in other ways.

So, yeah. We got to the birth center. They checked baby and everything was good. This was a surprise, also. I did not know if “he” was “he” at the time. So we got into the birth center-- let me look at my notes here. I think that was at 10, 10:30, yeah. We got in at 10:30. Everything was good and they just let you be, which was again, so incredibly different than, obviously, my other experiences in the hospital. They were just like, “You’re doing great. You keep doing your thing. Everything is looking really great.” And so, we just continued to labor.

We walked around the birth center. I would squat with contractions and sway with contractions and overall, I felt like I was coping really, really well. There was that one point where I knew based on the way I was feeling and where the contractions were at, I knew I had to be pretty far along, but I also doubted myself for a second. I thought, “There’s no way that I can be doing this well. I am not strong enough. There’s no way. There is no way. I am probably 3 centimeters. I don’t know.” They didn’t check me. They didn’t say they needed to check me and I didn’t want to be checked at that time, so we just didn’t. We decided to forego that. But then I am like, “No. I really do think this is going exactly the way it should go.”

I talked to my doula a little bit about what I should be doing, like if I should be trying to push things along and doing a bunch of squats, or lunges, or different things, or if I should try to rest and she was like, “If you feel like you can rest, you should rest.” So I laid down for maybe five minutes and then I wasn’t loving that. But she just really reminded me too, during contractions, just to really relax my pelvic floor as much as possible, so during contractions then, that was exactly what I would do, which is a really odd feeling because most of us as women are used to holding that in. You know, like with coughing, or sneezing, or things like that, or keeping that tight for different reasons.

Yeah, so truly just letting the floor feel loose was crazy. But it was also-- this is another thing that I can totally speak for the exercise program that I referred to before, Expecting and Empowered, is every single one of their-- you do three different exercises a week, or days a week that you were supposed to do their program, and they always have pelvic floor exercises. They helped me so much be able to actually target those muscles during birth which was awesome.

I did that a lot and I had music playing. You know, just some Christian music that I love, worship music playing, which was really wonderful. I remember things were getting pretty intense and I had these cards that just had different scripture on them. I remember reading through those right before things got really intense. It was just what I needed at that time to really feel like, “No. You can do this.” One of my favorite ones about, “Pain may endure for the night, but joy comes in the morning” and I just remember thinking like, “That’s where I am in right now and so soon I’m going to meet this baby and there’s going to be so much joy.”

My midwife came back in. They watched me have a couple of contractions where I was definitely vocalizing through the contractions and they were definitely intense. They said, “I think it would be a good time to get into the tub.” My husband tells me later that he literally thought they were crazy. He was like, “Why are we getting in the tub? We have like 6 to 12 more hours of this.” He, of course, is thinking of our first birth and again, also thinks there’s no way this can go as fast as it’s going.

So I get into the tub and that was-- I got into the tub and I was only in the tub for about 20 minutes until he was born, actually. But I got into the tub. Everyone asks me if the tub was helpful and I think it was. The hard part to tell-- the reason I say I think it was is because it was hard to sometimes tell if the water was super helpful because at the same time they were by far the most intense contractions. I mean, transition is. And so, while I was in the tub, I very much felt out of control. It was very much the first time where I was like, “I could crawl out of my skin.”

Meagan: Some people say if you are in there before the transition hits, it is more manageable, but man, I would be with you. I was in the tub and I was like, “I just need to move.”

Julie: And I loved the tub. I loved it. My whole labor was in the tub. Birthed in the tub, all of it. It’s so funny how it’s so different for everybody.

Alysa: Yeah. Well, and I think if I had another, I would probably get into the tub sooner. I think I didn’t want to use it too soon and then it wouldn’t help me or something, but I think I would get into the tub sooner, like you said, Julie. But you know, it was that moment where I said, “I can’t do this.” I was like, I told my husband, I am like, “Joe, I don’t think I can do this.” He was like, “You’re doing this.” I remember having a very vivid thought in my head like, “Alysa, the only way is through. This is it. There’s no going back. There’s no changing where I’m at right now and so, just try to lean into that.” 

My doula, like I said, was also taking pictures, but she saw me again have a very intense contraction. My midwives had left. I mean, they were literally outside the door, but they were like, “You know what? I am going to go grab the midwives,” my doula said. Of course, they just know. They have done this so many times. They have seen so much unmedicated birth that they just-- they know. They came back in and my midwife was like, “You’re going to meet your baby so soon,” and seriously, I still was in complete disbelief that this was actually happening and the way everything had gone.

I did get pretty nauseous at one point and I thought I was going to throw up. I did that with my son with my first birth, but I didn’t throw up. They had peppermint oil and I was able to work through that. I’m glad I didn’t throw up, but that’s a pretty normal feeling, I think. 

And then, the craziest feeling I’ve ever had in my entire life is when my body started pushing. I say that I had no part, zero part in pushing my baby out. My body completely took over. All I can say, like the way I have described it to people is that it literally felt like a vice had a hold of my insides and was rocketing something out of my vagina. It was the craziest feeling I have ever felt and it was both an intense-amazing, but also a scary, out-of-control feeling. But yes, the fetal-ejection reflex was insane. When my body started pushing, I was like, “I am pushing,” and I screamed louder than I have ever screamed. My throat was literally sore from just like letting out this unbelievable roar. I remember I pushed. I had a little bit of a break and I was like, “I’m sorry for being so loud.”

My midwife was like, “Don’t ever be sorry. Just think about tennis players like Serena Williams, Venus Williams, they roar when they are doing their sport. You roar.”

Meagan: I love that.

Alysa: I was grateful for her, yeah. But yes, two big pushes, like I said, which were completely my body pushing in two minutes. I started pushing at 12:29 a.m. I was 40+3 and at 12:31, he was born. His head came out and I said, “Come and get him out. Get him out. Get him out. Get him out,” and then the rest of his body came out and he came right up on my chest. It was incredible. 

My husband was right there next to me. I looked over at him and I just kept saying, “I can’t believe I just did that.” I had visualized my birth so much over the previous 10 months, but especially in the last month leading up to my birth, and the fact that it had gone so much of the way I had visualized was-- I mean, I felt so grateful. But also, I think it was telling that that was helpful. Not that that happens for everyone, obviously. I know full well things don’t always go as planned or as you want them to, but in this case, it really did. I was just overwhelmed. Overwhelmed with joy and gratefulness.

We were just hanging out a little bit and my husband again later tells me that he was like, “Are we going to find out if it’s a boy or a girl?” because I was just so wrapped up in what had happened, and snuggling this new baby, and I didn’t even care. I was like, “I don’t even care.” I didn’t even think of whether he was a boy or a girl. But yes, we took a look and he was a little boy. 6 pounds 1 ounce which also, I was like, “What in the world? He is so tiny.” He was smaller than my other two and I had carried him three weeks longer than any of my other kids.

Meagan: Crazy.

Alysa: It just shows how crazy that is. But my little peanut, Silas Cecil was born on August 14th. It was just so cool. The birth center experience was just so amazing, being able to chill there and truly have that golden hour of hanging out with him, and looking him over, and then getting out and just snuggling in bed, and then they just let us be for a while. Then, they came back and did all of the checks and measurements right there, right on the bed. 

It literally felt like family was around me and it was so wonderful. So much so that I-- you know, I still follow the social media pages of the birth center that I was at, and whenever I see women who are close to their due date, or in labor, or whatever, I almost have this like-- I am jealous of them in a way. I know that sounds crazy, but just because I know they are about to experience something, yes, hard, but really amazing.

I felt like after my first, and not that either of my first births were horrible or traumatic. I am so grateful for, especially with my second birth, the medicine that was there that really, truly in years past-- well, decades, centuries past, we could have not lived through, so I am grateful for those advances. But just to be able to experience the beauty of truly no interventions was so awesome and I am just so grateful.

Julie: That’s incredible. There are parts of your stories that I can really relate to. I really love when you said when you got past the point of your longest pregnancy, you were so excited to be pregnant that long because you had never made it to that point. With my first VBAC baby, I was like that. 

My first was born via Cesarean at 36 weeks on the dot and when I got to 36 weeks and 1 day, I almost let out a breath, like, released air. Like, “Okay. I made it. We can do this. I am good now.” I am like, “I have never been this pregnant before. This is so cool.” People would ask me, “How are you feeling? Are you just so miserable?” And I am 39 weeks pregnant-- well, I didn’t quite make it to 39 that time, but I was 38 weeks pregnant, waddling around, and I’d be like, “No. I am just so happy to still be pregnant,” and people just looked at me so strange.

Alysa: Yep.

Julie: It’s just really funny what perspective you have when you have dealt with or been through a birth with complications. Every single milestone you hit, like you said, gives you another release of air.

Alysa: It does.

Julie: Until all of the things are gone and you can just enter into your birth space worry-free and without any other type of concerns. So I was totally right there with you when you were talking about that.

Alysa: Yeah, it was. I feel the exact same way.

Meagan: So Alyssa had placenta previa. Placenta previa is-- I don’t know if anyone has ever had this, too. I am going to backtrack even more. At the 20-week ultrasound, one of the things they look at is where the placenta is lying. If you have ever heard about a low-lying placenta, it’s likely that they are looking at where it is in conjunction with your cervix. 

Sometimes the placenta attaches low by the cervix and sometimes it even attaches over the cervix. Which, the cervix has to open, and dilate, and efface in order to get a baby out vaginally. So if you can understand what that means if it’s covering the cervix, you know, this is our baby’s home, and how they breathe and eat, and everything. And so, if it is covering the cervix, it is a true need for a Cesarean because they cannot deliver a baby through a cervix that is covered with a placenta. 

Sometimes when it is low, it’s low, but it’s not covering the cervix quite yet or it’s really, really close. But then as pregnancy continues, and the uterus grows and stretches, and the baby grows, it goes up with the uterus. That happens a lot of the time, in fact, most of the time, but once in a while, like Alysa‘s case, it did not. She had accreta.

She mentioned bleeding and that’s one of the number-one signs that there are accreta issues. If you have ever experienced anything where you are experiencing blood like that or things like that, don’t hesitate to go in immediately and get things checked out. I’m so proud of you, Alysa, that you were able to keep that baby in nice, safe, and sound until your goal because that is hard work and it’s amazing. So, congrats on that.

And then, so there is previa and then there is accreta. Julie, you may have to help me out because you are the statistic guru. But accreta is when it is actually, it is partially in and grown into the scar of the uterus--

Julie: The uterus. It doesn’t have anything to do with the scar.

Meagan: That’s true. It’s not the scar. It is just in the uterus. It has grown in, sorry. Cesarean moms have a higher risk of it because we have had cuts. So that is where my mind is going.

But, yeah. It grows into it. That can be very, very dangerous as well. Do you know the stats, Julie, on how many people get accreta? Just stats?

Julie: Yeah, I actually have some information up right here on my computer right now. I want to direct you guys to a really good foundation called The National Accreta Foundation and its website is preventaccreta.org. It’s spelled a-c-c-r-e-t-a, accreta. Preventaccreta.org and their whole mission is to reduce the Cesarean rate, which in turn, reduces the chance of having accreta.

And so, it goes over a lot about the statistics about Cesareans. 87% of women that had a Cesarean will go on and have a repeat Cesarean which increases the risks for placenta accreta in future pregnancies. Now, 1 in 272 births will develop placenta accreta. Placenta accreta ranges in severity. It can be just barely growing into the uterine lining and in the most severe cases, it actually can grow through the uterus, and outside of the uterus, and start attaching to other organs, which is when it is very, very dangerous. The cases of a placenta accreta have actually quadrupled since the 1980s, which is really interesting because you can see the rates of accreta increase right along with the Cesarean rate as the Cesarean rate rises.

Meagan: Cesarean rates, mhmm.

Julie: Right. In 1980, it was 1 in 1200 pregnancies that had accreta, and in 2016, 1 in 272. So quite a big difference.

Alysa: I know that the risk of previa after a Cesarean is 1 to 6 times higher and the reason, like you said, is exactly right, Maegan. Because of that scar, no matter where the scar is, almost all Cesarean scars are lower or closer to the cervix.

Meagan: Right, the cervix.

Alysa: And so, when the placenta first wants to place itself somewhere in the uterus, it tends to want to go to that spot where that scar is. Normally the placenta, the best place is to be far away from the cervix because that’s where the best blood supply is. And so, when it’s down there, it’s not a great place for the placenta to be in general, but also yes, like you said, as the cervix changes and stretches throughout pregnancy, that’s where that risk of bleeds goes up, too.

Julie: Well, and I have a source from ICAN right here. We have a little graphic that we made on the risks of C-section with each Cesarean. Your risk of placenta accreta after your first C-section is .24%, so 1 in 417. Just listen to these numbers. They increase exponentially. Instead of saying one-in-so-many, I’m just going to say percentage, okay? Just for full transparency. 

After your first C-section, your risk of accreta is .24%. After your second C-section, your risk of accreta is .31%. Not too big of a jump there, .24% to .31%. Your third C-section, it doubles to .57%, so half a percent, which is actually bigger than your chance of rupture I will say there. But by the time you have your fourth Cesarean, your risk of having placenta accreta is 2.13%. 1 in 41 people who have four or more Cesareans will have placenta accreta.

Meagan: Pretty wild.

Julie: Which it obviously necessitates, makes necessary-- it is necessary to have another C-section because it is not safe to deliver vaginally at that point. It is not safe for you just to contract at that point, so you are at a higher risk because of that, just because of having that major surgery. But also, it’s a big risk for the mom and the baby. A big increase in postpartum hemorrhage for mother, higher instances of loss of life for mother and loss of infant life as well with those.

And so, when you are considering VBAC versus repeat Cesarean, look into the complications that come with each subsequent Cesareans. Now, some providers will say, “Oh, I don’t do VBAC, but I am only going to let you have four Cesareans because it is dangerous to have more than that.” But then there are some providers-- I know one in our state who told a friend of mine, “Oh yeah, I am not worried about your family size. I have done eight Cesareans on someone before.” I am like, “Eight Cesareans?” My jaw hit the floor. I just can’t even imagine. I can’t even imagine.

Meagan: Well, and something too that I just want to point out to you is, a lot of the times providers won’t do VBAC because of the “risks”, right? But when you say, “Well, what are the risks of Cesareans?” They’re, “Oh, there are no risks.” Just this right here alone with each pregnancy, because this can happen with pregnancy, right? 

And so, then it can cause issues. I mean, look at what was happening with Alysa. She had to fight to keep her baby in. Just keep in mind that it happens and there are risks. If a provider-- (dog growling) oh my gosh. My dog really wants the mailman driving around out there. There really are risks associated with both. And so, f you ever have a provider that says there are no risks for a VBAC and there are no risks for a Cesarean, then maybe question them a little bit.

Julie: Well, and I think a big part of that is the biggest risks that providers will see with a Cesarean is when they are doing the Cesarean which is your increased risk of blood loss, right? You will need a blood transfusion. But they see the immediate consequences of a Cesarean which aren’t as significant as the long-term effects of having multiple Cesareans.

Alysa: Correct, yeah.

Julie: And so, you have a provider that sees you and he does your Cesarean, but then you might have another provider for your next pregnancy that you get accreta and your provider that did your C-section might never even know you developed accreta. And so, why would they not be afraid to do eight Cesareans? Because they don’t see the long-term consequences that come with that. I’m sure they’re educated in that. I am sure they learned it in OB school, but when it’s not right in front of your face, it’s harder to keep that in the forefront of your mind.

Alysa: Absolutely.

Meagan: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and letting us talk about this topic on your story because it’s important to know the differences. It’s important to know the risks. We are so happy for you that you got the birth that you wanted and you deserved. I mean really, you had a very medicalized, and then you had a necessary Cesarean, and then you had an unmedicated VBAC, and so you have a little bit of everything. It’s fun to hear your story and hear that not every birth is alike. 

This is one thing that I mention to my clients. People are like, “Oh, I really want to deliver at home, but because it’s my first, I want to see how things go.” I always just think to myself, “Go where you feel most comfortable.”

Julie: “Just in case”

Meagan: Go where you feel most comfortable and where you can picture that birth because just because it’s your first birth doesn’t mean it will likely be different for your second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, eighth, you know?

Alysa: Yes. Yes.

Meagan: Your story right there is a prime example of how different each birth can go.

Alysa: Yes. I want to say to that too, like, I would encourage anyone who wants something, don’t be afraid if you want something. I have had friends who were like, “I could never do that. I could never have an unmedicated birth,” and I am like, “You know, you could, but you have to want to.”

Meagan: Exactly.

Alysa: That’s the only difference between me and you. I am not anyone special. But if you want to and you feel like you want to, then do it. I think, maybe it was you guys who said it or I heard it somewhere else, you would never walk up to the start of a marathon having never trained and just being like, “Let’s see how this goes.”

Meagan: Let’s do it, yeah.

Alysa: And if you think it’s something you might want to do, you can do it. Just surround yourself with the people, and the knowledge, and the resources, like you guys, to accomplish those goals. I mean, it’s okay to want that and that doesn’t make you-- yeah. It’s okay to want that.

Meagan: It doesn’t make you crazy. It doesn’t make you unrealistic. It doesn’t make you selfish to desire something different. It does not. So, I love it. I love that you went out and you got that something different and I love that it was all the good things, so thank you again.

Julie: Absolutely.

Alysa: Thank you guys so much.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

We are SO excited to be joined today by our friend, Ali Levine. You will instantly feel her bright energy as she shares her awesome VBAC story with us.

As a celebrity stylist and TV personality, Ali is no stranger to being in the limelight. With her first pregnancy, she had glamorous photoshoots, went to flashy events, and made a dreamy birth plan. When the natural water birth of her dreams quickly turned into a traumatic and invasive C-section, Ali was left confused, disappointed, and depressed. 

Ali drastically changed her approach to birth with her second pregnancy. Once she began researching VBAC, Ali was determined, intentional, and never looked back.

Ali’s VBAC journey is one of a life-changing, spiritual awakening that we absolutely love and know you will love too. 

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

Ali’s Podcast: Everything with Ali Levine 

Ali’s Instagram: @alilevinedesign

Episode sponsor

This episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.

Interested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Julie: You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast and we are so excited. We have been chitchatting with Ali today and she has a really amazing birth story to tell. We cannot wait for you to hear it. 

I am sitting here in my dentist’s parking lot. I literally just got done getting a filling. I had to rush out so that I could be on the call to listen to Ali’s story today. And so before we do that, Meagan is going to go ahead and give us a Review of the Week.

Meagan: Yes, I am. Oh my gosh, you guys are in for a treat. Ali is so fun. We have just been talking to her for like, five minutes and I am just already giddy to hear her story. She has got such a fun, live personality to her. It’s going to be awesome. This review is from jovannaf1 and in parentheses, it says “Germany.” So, I am wondering if she is either in Germany or her name is German.

Julie: Ooh, that would be fun.

Meagan: I know, right? Her title is “Love it.” This is from Apple Podcasts. It says, “Thank you so much for spreading such an important message, ladies. I am currently pregnant with my third child and your podcast has given me so much help and resources to know that VBA2C is possible. I find women’s stories so inspiring. Thank you.”

And we want to thank you for leaving that awesome review and thank all of you who are listening and support us along this journey. This podcast has been absolutely so much fun. We are so excited to be able to continue offering all of the stories and continue to get submissions. We get submissions all the time and it is always just so awesome to read them even if they are not all shared. We read every single one. They are all incredible. So, thank you, thank you, thank you and if you haven’t already, please drop us a review. It means the world to us and we will read it on a podcast one day.

Julie: Do you know what is so funny? My mom, I don’t even think she knows what a podcast is still. It is so funny because sometimes when we are chatting, I will say, “You know, Mom? Look. Look at these reviews. See? I am actually helping people with what I do. I am really making a difference.” She looks at me and she smiles and she is like, “I know you are.” I am like, “No but really, Mom. Look at all my reviews!”

It’s just so fun. We really do love them and thank you guys for helping my mom know that I am actually helping people.

Meagan: Okay, so we are going to jump into this episode because like I said, you guys are in for a treat. You’re going to notice right off the bat, Ali is just such a fun person to listen to. She has had a VBAC and we just need to give her a little introduction if you would not mind, Ali. First of all, can I just tell you? Maybe you’ve heard this before. This is not VBAC-related. This is in regards to your Instagram page. I don’t know why. So, it is Ali Levine and I always read it like “Avril Lavigne” every single time. When you started to contact us, I was like, “Avril Lavigne is contacting us?!”

Julie: “He was a skater boy. She said, ‘See you later boy.’”

Meagan: I was like, “Oh my gosh.” So, it is not Avril Lavigne. It is Allie Levine and, is it LaVINE or LaVEEN?

Ali: No, it’s LaVEEN. It is so funny because I have had this said to me several times. People will be like, “So, do you know her?” I am like, “I think she is a distant cousin.” Same with Adam. You know what I mean? It’s so funny. I have actually styled Adam back in the day when I was styling different celebrities. It is just so funny when people say that to me because I crack up. So, yes, no. I am not Avril Lavigne, but I bring the same kind of flavor, I think, as she does.

Meagan: You are so awesome. Yeah, it is just so funny. It is just how it reads. It just automatically goes to Avril Lavigne in my mind, but you are so awesome. We think you are awesome. And, yeah. As you were saying, you are a celebrity stylist, which, how cool is that? Motherhood, fashion, lifestyle expert, and TV personality. I mean, you are going to hear it coming out right here. You are going to see it on her Instagram page. If you haven’t, go right now. It is @alilevinedesign. So, it is @alilevinedesign. Go check her out. It is super fun. I think you actually have a couple, like Everything with Ali Levine, right? Like, you have a couple of pages.

Ali: Yes, that’s my podcast.

Meagan: That’s your podcast.

Ali: Everything with Ali Levine is my podcast, yes.

Meagan: Yes. Ali Levine. So, go listen to her. It is just so fun. So, okay. I am just going to read your bio. Is that okay?

Ali: Whatever you want.

Meagan: Whatever I want, all right. So it says, “Ali Levine believes that no matter where you roam, from the laundry room to the red carpet, authenticity is your superpower and confidence is your best accessory.”

I love that. The week your podcast goes on, we need to make a little word blurb and put that and put your name in that. It’s amazing.

Julie: I can make a shirt. I want to make a shirt.

Meagan: Do it. Let’s do it. “The New York-hotshot-turned-Hollywood style maven delivers a real, raw look at her own motherhood journey amid the treasures she’s uncovered in the universal search for authenticity, spiritual wholeness, and happiness.”

Seriously, so excited to have you. I know that you have two beautiful daughters. We are excited to hear about both of their births. So, before I take up all the time ranting and raving about how awesome you are, let’s let everyone hear about how awesome you are from you and your awesome story.

Ali: Aw. Well, thank you so much for having me. I was telling you before we started recording-- truly, I am so honored to be here tonight. I listen to you guys literally every day still, now. I was listening my entire pregnancy. My doula, Stacey, has given your podcast to so many different clients when she is like, “Hey, this client is struggling. What should I have them listen to?” And I am like, “Have them listen to The VBAC Link.” You guys have been such a godsend, truly. 

Especially during the pandemic, and everything that was going on with my birth, and plans changing every day, the only solid piece I had was with you guys. I literally had you in my ear as much as humanly possible to keep putting the intention that I was going to get my VBAC and I did with my second daughter. It was so freaking magical and healing. It makes me cry still.

Meagan: Well, I love it because one of the things that I feel sometimes weird about even though it’s my own podcast is, I still go back and listen to all the stories. I am not having babies anymore. I am not preparing for a VBAC, but all of these stories are just so inspiring. And honestly, they help me because I can send these to my clients. So many of these are powerful and educational for my own clients, so I am excited to hear that both you and your doula are still with us. You’re still hanging out with us even though you rocked your VBAC and, yeah. We are just so excited that you are with us.

Ali: Well, thank you. I agree with you completely and if there is anything I have learned from my social media and my own podcast, it is that beautiful authenticity, that sharing of that real and rawness, and being able to be vulnerable and share all of that. Not only is it so healing and beautiful for the individual, but it is so empowering for the other women listening and for the moms that are going through it. It is like, we are all there for each other and in that sense, we are all really going for our VBAC and when you get to hear these other stories-- like, during my pregnancy, I remember finding you guys randomly when I was searching for VBAC support and I was listening. I just started falling in love with the stories and I was like, “Oh my gosh. I could picture myself in that position. Oh my gosh.” And to feel like I could do it, it was such an empowering feeling. So, kudos to you guys, truly, for this show.

Meagan: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. It has been so rewarding. It truly has.

Ali: That’s amazing.

Julie: Yeah, thank you. It is fun to come full circle, where we have people that were listening to the podcast and are on the podcast. I just feel like it is really cool when you were listening to the stories, and you were getting inspired by the stories, and then you get to share your story now and inspire other people. Then, we have this domino effect where people are listening to the podcast, and then sharing their stories, and then others are listening to their stories and then sharing their stories. It is just this really cool community and platform that we have built. It just makes me really happy.

Ali: No, I love it. And you can hear that with you guys. Like, truly. Every time you listen, you hear that happiness and how much you guys celebrate everyone who is on and their stories and it is like-- something that I have learned with my second daughter is, birth is truly beautiful. It is something that I honestly with my first, especially after having quite a traumatic C-section, I really was in a fear-based place. 

I am so grateful that I switched from that fear to that love, and that transformation, and all that because it really is. As intense as it can be, the more you can be intentional, the more you can empower yourself, no matter what the circumstance, it is transformational and it is life-changing and so many ways. Not just in, of course, the fact that you give birth, but in my opinion, you are reborn. There is a spiritual awakening, at least for myself. It has just been so magical for me to get to really, really dive into it. And so, I am excited to share it with you guys.

Meagan: Well, we are excited to hear it.

Ali: All right, so going back to Amelia. When I got pregnant-- we talked about the fact that I am a celebrity stylist and I do a lot with television and Hollywood and all of that. And so, when I got pregnant, I had just come off of being on a show on Bravo, so people nationally knew my pregnancy. A lot more eyeballs were watching my pregnancy than I expected them to be and watching my journey, which was really amazing and cool, but also a lot of pressure at the same time.

I really didn’t realize how much it played into my actual pregnancy and birth. When I was in the midst of thinking about what I wanted to have for a birth plan, I was of course very much in the mindset of like, “I really want to have a natural birth, and I want to have a tub birth, and I want it to be beautiful, and I want flowers, and I want this, and I want that.” I am a more natural person in general in how I like to do things. I like to seek out natural options before I go to something else. And so for me, it felt like it really aligned and it was what I wanted to do.

I honestly didn’t really do my research or homework into what that looked like. I got a midwife. I got a doula, but I didn’t do research beyond that. I didn’t really look into what it potentially could be. It was more just like I made sure I had my team and I made sure I had a back-up doctor with that team in case things didn’t go that way just to make sure I was safe, and that was it. I didn’t really do much research I guess I would say.

And so, once it came time for me when I went into labor-- First off, I will share that I was getting really fed up with everybody asking me when I was going to pop when I was going to have the baby. My parents were sitting and looking at me like this balloon that was going to pop and I am like, “Oh my gosh. It is okay. I am fine. They checked. The baby is fine. I am fine.” But every two seconds it was like, “Why haven’t you gone into labor? How come she hasn’t come yet?” I was like, “I don’t know.” 

It was a lot of pressure, honestly. I got so fed up at around-- I think it was at 40 weeks and I said to my husband, “I can’t deal anymore. If one more person asks me, I am going to lose it.” So, I took castor oil, which I don’t advise.

Meagan: I did that with my first birth too.

Ali: Did you? Okay.

Meagan: Yes, and everyone was asking me the same questions. I had one coworker who was like, “Do I need to get you a wheelbarrow to wheel you around the office?” I am like, “Shut up.”

Ali: Right. Nobody wants to hear that. It is funny for a minute and then you are like, “Please, just let me be because clearly, I am uncomfortable, and I am trying to be at peace with this, and I am trying to allow my baby to come when they are supposed to come,” which, you know. It is easier said than done. And then you’re sitting there and they are like, “Well, you haven’t popped yet.” 

My mom was like, “Well, I had you and they had to induce me. Well, what if that is what you need? What is going on?” And I was like, “Oh my gosh. Let’s just leave all of the pressures off of me please and let my body do its thing.” I couldn’t deal.

So, I took castor oil. It did definitely jumpstart something because all of a sudden, five hours later, my water broke and I was going into labor. But I went into pre-labor and pre-contractions because of the castor oil. And so, we think that now, obviously in hindsight, that it probably pushed her too fast and she wasn’t ready. Because first off, it made me feel really uncomfortable. I went into my birth center to my midwife and I wasn’t really dilated past even a 3, and so she sent me home and was like, “You know, go home and go to sleep. Try to do this and try to do that.” Of course, I couldn’t do any of those things. I was losing it at home trying to stay calm and wait for her to come. We went back to my birth center and then I was finally progressing a little bit more. I still wasn’t active, but she took me because I think she felt bad that I was struggling.

And so, we go to my midwife’s birth center and we are there. Hours of really hardcore, manual, full-blown natural labor, really doing the work. Squatting, on the toilet, on the ball, in the shower, in the bed, on all fours, just constant, constant, and it was a good day of full-blown movement trying to get my body to do what I needed to do, and progress, and make things happen.

I finally started getting too active and she was like, “All right. Let’s transition you to the tub so that we can get you ready and get you comfortable if that’s where you want to be. I got in the tub and I immediately felt super sick, and super overwhelmed, and dehydrated, and also nauseous. I threw up. She was like, “All right. Let’s get you out.” So, I got back on the ball. I got back on the toilet and I felt awful.

So then, they lowered the water in the tub and everything. My doula was putting a washcloth on me, and essential oils, and trying to calm me. I could feel that I just felt off. We went back into the tub because I told her that I really wanted to give birth there and so she was like, “All right. Let’s breathe, and take our time, and see where we are.” At that point, I was in the tub and I was almost at 30 hours of being in labor. She was like, “You know, you are only at the beginning of active labor. I think I was technically at 6-6.5, something like that. I wasn’t fully progressing. She was getting concerned that things weren’t really fully progressing and I was really losing my stamina and my strength because I had been pushing and moving for so long.

She was like, “Let’s talk about interventions.” Of course, being someone who did want natural and had a “birth plan” and all that, I wanted nothing to do with that. I was like, “No, no, no. I want to just stay here. Let me just progress. Leave it alone.” She stepped out of the room, my midwife, and made a phone call to the back-up doctor at the hospital to let him know what she was thinking. I guess, of course, they advised each other that I should go in. 

And so, they got me out of the tub. That was a whole scene in itself. That could have been on a freaking reality show. It was like, getting me out, my parents are in the waiting room, we asked them not to be there and they’re pacing, and they’re flipping, and everything is a mess. Everyone is flipping out. “Am I okay? What is happening?” It was just so much pressure.

I get into my husband’s truck. I am fine. I am in active labor, but I am totally fine. Baby is safe and I am fine. We drive over to the hospital. I get there and they check me in and I get to my room. They check me and they were like, “All right. You progressed a little bit more, but she is stuck in the birth canal at this point. So we are going to give you some Pitocin to ramp things up and try to move her.” 

They put me on-- I think it was 15, I think, is the highest you can be? I didn’t go from a small amount. It was like literally, they cranked me up and I went from full-blown natural-- it was awful. I went from full-blown natural at the birth center in the dark with my music, with my oils, all of that to bright lights, fluorescent, hospital, screaming, panic, everybody in your shit if you will. It was just crazy and then it was like oh, and then this Pitocin that was cranked to no end. 

I couldn’t handle it. I immediately was like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t breathe. I feel uncomfortable.” I’m like, crying. I was really struggling. So then they were like, “All right. Well, let’s give her an epidural.” They cranked that all the way up. I went from feeling like I couldn’t handle it to I couldn’t feel anything and then I felt super sick.

I threw up again. I just felt awful. I just remember in that moment feeling so down and feeling like I failed at what I was trying to do. I remember even now, that heavy moment of, “What just happened? Why am I here? What is all of this? This is nothing of what I wanted. I was so overwhelmed.” 

And so fast forward, I got to 40 hours. We spent 10 more hours at the hospital. We got to 40 hours. My doctor came in and was like, “All right. Well, at least you have progressed now to basically complete. We are going to give this a go and have you really push and make this happen.” I am like, “Okay.” And so I am pushing, but I really couldn’t feel it to be honest. The epidural, they said, was supposed to wear off, but it was like I really could not-- I just could not feel it.

They were like, “Push. Push. Push.” I am pushing. I am pushing. They are like, “Push harder.” I am pushing as much as I could. She comes down. I obviously, really couldn’t see her, but everybody else could and they were like, “But then she shot back up in the back birth canal,” which I obviously didn’t even know was a thing. 

And so, she shot down, and then she shot back up. Then they were like, “All right. We are going to go again.” She shot down again. He went to grab her and she shot back up. I just remember my doctor looking at me and being like, “Okay. We are going to take a break and then I will be back.”

He went and actually said to me, “I am going to go get dinner and then come back.” At first, I was like, “Oh, that is so rude,” but my doula and midwife advised me because they were still there with me. They advised me that the reason he did that was to buy me more time because if he wasn’t present technically there shouldn’t have had me had a baby without him unless it was an emergency.

So they were like, “He is buying you time.” So I was like, “Okay.” I didn’t realize at that time that there were a lot of decisions that needed to be made. What are we going to do? What are we going to keep trying? Are we going to do something else? C-section hadn’t even been in my mind because I hadn’t even been talked to about a C-section, prepped around a C-section, like nothing. So I was not thinking that at all. 

I was just thinking, “We are just going to wait longer. I am going to rest and we are going to go again.” Everybody leaves the room. My husband sits with me and he turns to me. We were at almost 42 hours at this point. He looks at me and he goes, “Don’t you want to meet her now?” I started bawling. I am like, “Are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me? Of course, I want to meet her now, but I have done so much work. I want things to go the way I want them to go. They weren’t already going the way I wanted them to go when we were at the birth center.”

He’s like, “I know, but you are so tired. You have been such a warrior. Don’t you just want to meet her and let yourself rest? We will have her.” Of course, I burst into tears and I was just like, “Fine, I guess.” 

I just let go. I remember being so upset and feeling so defeated in that moment because I got to those 42 hours and I had gotten to basically complete. So much had played out and I was convinced that “Okay. At least I was going to have her vaginally in a hospital.” And then it was just like, “Nope.” 

I get rolled Into the OR and have my C-section. Thank God, it was so fast. It was probably not even 10 minutes. They were really, really quick and she was right there. I have to say that they did an amazing job and I was so grateful. But it was just so not obviously what I envisioned or imagined. I just remember after getting back in the room and the initial shock and then putting me with her and everything, I just remember feeling like, “Oh my god, I am so happy to have her in my arms,” but I just felt like I had failed and my body had failed.

It was such a debilitating feeling. I felt so numb in me, even though I was so blissfully happy about her. It was like a wild rollercoaster of emotions, you know? Because I was so happy to have her and so excited to finally hold my baby, but at the same time, I was almost dead inside. Like, what happened? Why did things play out like that? What is that? Do you know?

For those that have followed my story, you know shortly after having my first daughter, I had pretty heavy postpartum depression. I do believe a lot of my birth played into that. When I got pregnant again with Arley, I really made the intention of, “I really don’t want to go through that again if I don’t have to. I really want to be smart about doing my research this time around my birth. What can I do to prepare my body? How can I be more intentional internally and not externally?” 

Because I felt like with Amelia-- again, I was a new mom. I had no idea what I was getting into, so to me, it was like, “Oh, you just give birth. No big deal. Everybody does it.” I didn’t prep my body. I didn’t do anything. The only thing I did was take maternity photoshoots that were glamorous. I just did all of the checkboxes of the things in the external world and all the glam. 

With Arley, I was like, “No.” I am going to be so intentional about what I am going to do, what I need to do, and do my research and talk to my birth communities around me now that I know them from sharing my experience and everything with Amelia.

Luckily, I had so many incredible people around me that advised me to get a chiropractor right when I got pregnant to get my body aligned. So I found a chiropractor that specialized in VBACs and aligned with her right at three weeks when I was pregnant. I stayed with her my entire pregnancy. I found people that could do labor stimulation massage for later in the game and a doula that had also been a part of VBACs. Just all of these different entities that I didn’t realize were so important. 

And then most importantly, when I got pregnant with Arley, I went to my regular prenatal doctor, and the first thing she says to me after “Congratulations” is, “Okay, now let’s schedule your C-section.” I looked at her and I said, “Whoa. First off, I am just swallowing the fact that I am pregnant again. Secondly, I don’t want to do a C-section.” She was like, “Well since you already had one, I am advising you to have one.”

I was like, “Well, with all due respect, I know that I can have a VBAC.” She was like, “Well, I really don’t advise it. I really think you should have a C-section.”

Julie: Wow.

Ali: Isn’t that wild? That was my reaction. 

Julie: Like, right off the bat, even. Not even discussing anything.

Ali: Nope. No discussion. It was like, “I know better. Here is this information.” Gave me a folder, the whole nine yards of my risks, the whole thing, the whole fear-mongering. Thank God I had so many people around me in the birth community from Amelia that they had all told me that just wasn’t true and that the success rate was way higher than people realize and discuss. It was funny because I actually learned about VBACs when I was on Berlin’s podcast. I’m spacing on his name. Dr. Berlin.

Meagan: Elliot? Elliot Berlin?

Ali: Yes, thank you. Yes. And so, I was on his podcast and he wanted to share my birth story with Amelia. After I was on it, he turned to me and he goes, “You know, you could still have another baby vaginally.” I was like, “No, I can’t.” He was like, “Yeah, you can.” I was like, “What do you mean?” He was like, “It’s called a VBAC. They happen all the time.” He was like, “It has nothing to do with the way--” and this and that. 

It was like this reality of what had been told to me and preached to me all of a sudden just burst in front of me. It was like, “Wait. Unlearn everything you were just told and pay attention. Zoom in to what you’re being told now and learn.” And so, I did. Once I got pregnant with Arley, I knew I wanted to at least attempt a VBAC and get myself aligned body-wise, intentionally, mind-wise, soul, everything to do that. 

Once that doctor said that to me, I was like, “Well, I am sorry but I am not going to stay with you because you are not for me if you are not going to at least try to let me have a VBAC.” And so, I parted ways with her. I was so grateful she showed me her true colors right from the beginning because I know some doctors can bait-and-switch from what I have heard. She let me know right from the beginning and so then I started reaching out to different doulas and people to give me references. I landed on Dr. Brock who is in Los Angeles who is literally known as “The VBAC King”. You guys will appreciate that.

That’s literally what people call him. “The VBAC King”.

Julie: I want to know more about The VBAC King, but it’s okay.

Ali: Totally fine. It’s all good. So actually, it is funny that you guys bring up Elliot because Elliot and he have actually worked together in several births. Because a lot of people in LA go to him, if a baby is breech, they go to Dr. Brock because he is the only doctor known in Los Angeles to turn a breech baby. He is amazing. 

And so, I went to him. I asked for a referral to go see him because he is really hard to get into. I sit with him and I am twiddling my thumbs when he comes in. I am pregnant and he is like, “What is going on with you? Why are you so nervous?” I remember looking at him and I said quietly to him, “I want to discuss a VBAC.” He is like, “What?” “I want to discuss having a VBAC.” And he is like, “What is there to discuss?” He was like, “I did three this morning. What is the problem?”

Meagan: Oh my gosh! Yeah.

Julie: Best feeling ever.

Ali: It was the best feeling ever. I looked at him and I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s it?” Because I felt so shamed and wronged with that other doctor. And so, when he was so open to me and he was just like, “Yeah.” The nurse was so funny that was in there. She was taking my stats and she was like, “He does them literally every day and sometimes three times. It is not a big deal.” 

I was like, “Oh my gosh.”He was like, “Yeah. We will just monitor you. We are going to check your scar and make sure everything is together. As long as everything looks good, we will plan to do it, and if things down the road change, we will have a conversation.” He was like, “But I don’t see why not. You look like a great VBAC candidate.” He was all for it day one. I was so grateful that he was so supportive and his team and everything. 

And so fast forward, he checked my scars several times and everything looked good, thank God. Baby was growing great and everything was happening. We get to when pandemic hits. The world changes. I went from, “Okay, you can’t have your doula” to “Now, you can’t have your husband at the hospital.” It was becoming really intense for me because here I am, I really want to go for my VBAC and I want to have my support system, and now I’m not going to even have anybody. 

How is this going to work? Am I going to be able to have my VBAC? I am not going to lie, I was in a lot of fight-or-flight mode. I started researching home birth and HBACs at home. I started really doing research and talking to midwives and other people that were home doctors in case my husband couldn’t be with me. Because to me, it was one thing not to have Stacey, my doula, but it was another not to have my husband. I just felt like he had been through so much with me through Amelia that I couldn’t imagine not having him with Arley. 

Thank God, I think Arley knew. She held on because she literally came right at 42 weeks and they had just opened the hospitals back up a week before. And so, my husband was allowed to come and be with me. I really felt like she held out for him. But it was funny the week before, actually a week and a half probably before, Dr. Brock, as great as he was, he is still a doctor. Near the end, especially with the pandemic and everything, he was just like, “Well, you know, you’re getting close and you still haven’t gone into labor. Maybe we should just induce.”

I was like, “No. I don’t want to. I really want to give my body a shot.” He kept pushing me. He was like, “Well, let’s do a sweep. Let’s do this. Let’s do that.” I finally got a sweep a week before. Nothing happened. It was just painful for me. He was like, “All right.” We did another sweep a few days later and nothing was happening. He was like, “Let me just induce you. Let me just--” and I was like, “Dr. Brock. With all due respect, you have been so supportive of me through this whole experience. Please, just let me get to the final mark, and if things don’t happen then, then fine. We will do it.” 

I think it was maybe four or five days before and he kind of, not went back on his word, but I think he had moments because all of this was going on with the pandemic. He was just like, “Look.” He was like, “I am going to schedule the induction. It is going to be tomorrow,” and this and that. I remember leaving there and I felt really powerless. I was really upset and I came home. It was my eight-year anniversary with my husband. I turned to him and I was like, “I don’t want to do it. I don’t want to go in tomorrow.” He was like, “All right. Let’s talk through it.”

He is very logical and he was like, “Let’s talk through it. What’s going on? Why don’t you want to?” I just told him, I was like, “It just doesn’t feel right. I have worked so hard to be so intentional around this birth from my chiropractor, to finding a supportive doctor, to the right doula, to even different workouts, meditation, The VBAC Link podcast, just all kinds of things that I really surrounded myself with material-wise and tool-wise.” So I was like, “It just doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t align.”

He was like, “All right. Well, if you feel that way, then don’t go.” I called my doula and she was like, “Look. At the end of the day, you would be your own advocate. Everything is good with you and the baby. They run tests. Everything is cool. So at this point, it is really just a waiting game. So if you really don’t want to, then you voice that. You call and you cancel and you cancel the induction.” 

I remember calling Cedars-Sinai and canceling. I called and they were like, “Oh, we don’t even have your name on the list.” I was like, “Oh.” They were like, “But we will let Dr. Brock know.” It was funny because it was such a build-up to call. I felt like I was being a bad kid in school. So I was so nervous to call and cancel. I was dancing in my room for hours to call. I finally called and they were like, “Oh, you’re not even on the schedule.” I was like, “Oh, okay. Well, just let them know I am not coming.”

The next day, I got a call from my doctor and Dr. Brock is like, “Come in. I want to do a nonstress test on you.” So I go in, everything is cool. He was like, “All right, so you pushed against me.” He was like, “Message received. You’re not doing it.” I am like, “No. I am not.” And he is like, “All right.” He is like, “It is fine.” He is like, “Everything is good. Tests are good. I just thought you’d want to have her birthday. Don’t you want to have her already?” I am like, “I do want her here, but I want her here on her terms. If there is anything I learned from my first birth, it’s not about me. I don’t want to do it on my terms.” He was like, “Okay, fine. It is fair.” 

So then he was like, “If you don’t go--” because now, I was at the end of 41 weeks and 8 days or whatever. You know, when you get close to 42. He was like, “This weekend if you don’t go, on Monday, we are going to schedule the induction.” I was like, “Fine. That is fair.”

So that weekend came and it was Friday. I wasn’t getting any kinds of signs of going into labor. I was getting a lot of that prodromal labor that you guys always talk about which is the start-and-go, and you actually contract, and you think you’re in labor, but then it stalls out. That was happening for weeks to me. I was like, “What is this?” It kept happening and happening. 

That happened again on Friday and it just like-- nothing. My doula sent me to get acupuncture. I did that to stimulate things. That actually, I think, really helped. I did that Friday and I did that on Saturday. I went back-to-back and it really stimulated things and moved things around, I think, from what I could feel. My husband was also doing acupressure with my points at home that she had shown me.

At this point, my doula had said to me, “Okay. In my opinion, I feel like there is something more to this than your body.” It reminded me of one episode, well, many episodes I listened to with you guys, but there was one specifically where you guys really hone in on fear releasing. She was like, “I really feel like there’s something going on with you and we need to work through it.” So we did a recording of my birth story of Amelia‘s birth with her, just her and I recording everything, getting it out. She was like, “Okay. Now it is out. Let’s process it. Let’s release it. Wrap it up in a pretty bow and that’s it. We are going to move past it.” I was like, “Okay.” 

We did that on Friday. And then, we did some more rebozo and this and that. We met up outside at a park and everything and talked things through. Saturday came and she was like, “All right. I know you are getting close and you are getting concerned.” She was like, “What else can we do to help you release this?” I was like, “I don’t know. I am just so afraid of a C-section. I am so afraid of this. I am so afraid of that.” She was like, “All right.” She goes, “When you get home, you are going to write down--” And I remember learning this from you guys. She said, “You are going to write down what you told me you listened to on The VBAC Link, which was to write down your fears and release them.” She was like, “I want you to do that because I feel like there is more to this.” 

And so, I went back and listened to a bunch of your guys’ episodes and I wrote down on pieces of paper all of the different things I was afraid of. Getting an induction, stalling out, getting a C-section, getting stuck in the birth canal, all of the things. Being on Pitocin, getting an epidural, all of the things I was truly afraid of and I burned each and every one of them. There was such a relief when I burned them. I felt it in my energy and in my body. I started crying. I just felt so good.

So then, my husband and I took a walk with our toddler, Amelia. We went around the block and we were just talking and he started talking me through stuff. He was like, “What do you think it is?” I was like, “I don’t know. I think I’m just afraid to wind up in another crazy, traumatic birth.” He was like, “Okay. And if God forbid, that happened, what is the worst thing? We come home. You heal. We have our second daughter. It is the four of us as a family. The overall things are fine and we have our girl.” This and that, you know, putting things into perspective for me. I was like, “Yeah, no. You are right.” 

He is a golfer, a really good golfer. And so, he was walking me through all the strategies for a big tournament and comparing it to getting ready for a birth of the mentality and this and that, but actually, it was really helpful for me. So we come home and we have dinner and he was like, “Let’s hang out, and just stay up late, and have a good time.” So we have a little dance party with Amelia. We are playing music videos and just having a good time, dancing and laughing. And then, I go to lay down in bed. I turned on my essential oils and I do a little more acupressure. I say a little prayer. I got in bed and I put meditation in my ears and get the room really dark. I am meditating. I am like, “I am going to go into labor. Things are going to happen. Things are going to happen.” I wake up a couple of times in the middle of the night, nothing is happening. I am getting a little crushed. But I am like, “No. I am going to let it go. Let it go.”

I started getting hungry and I was like, “I’m going to go downstairs for a snack.” It was probably around 1:30, maybe 2:00. I start walking down my stairs and I feel this cramp and I am like, “Ooh,” and then I feel it again. I am like, “Ooh.” I get down and I am like, “Ooh, ooh, ooh,” and I can’t. I get down on my knees and I can’t get up.

Julie: I love that.

Ali: I am like, “Oh, maybe I’m not going to have a snack.” And so, I crawled up my stairs and I’m like, “Oh, okay. Could this be?” I honestly didn’t believe it because I had had so much prodromal labor. I had had so much start-and-go that it was like, “Oh, here we go again.” So I am just like, “Okay. I am just going to go lay back down.” I am crawling, but as I am crawling, it is getting more and more intense. More tightening and I am barely able to crawl. And so, I get up my stairs. I get in my room. My husband is sleeping and snoring. I am like, “Okay. I’m not going to wake him because I have told him so many times that this could be it and nothing is happening.” So I am like, “I am just going to chill.”

So I call my doula. I could barely get the words out because I am in quite a bit of squeezing pain, feeling the surges, and she was like, “All right. Do me a favor. Draw your bathtub. Get in the tub. Put in a little bit of your oils and call me back. Let me just hear your breathing.” So I turned the tub on and I had this overwhelming feeling while I was sitting there in my room, just talking to myself of going into Amelia‘s room. I didn’t know why. 

So I crawled into her room and I opened the door and crawl in. She is asleep. I crawl into her chair. I’m sitting there and I start bursting into tears. I am hysterical out of nowhere and I just start babbling and I am like, “I love you. I hope I can be a good mom when I am a mom of two. I have made such an amazing relationship between the two of us so far. I don’t want to fail you.” I am just pouring my heart out. She is passed out. I am just crying and crying, just sharing my heart with her and my fear of being a mom of two. I don’t want to let her down.

And then I remember I said to her, “Okay. I think your baby sister is coming. So the next time I see you, she is going to be here.” I was hysterical. Then I crawl back out, crawled into my tub. I think this was maybe 2:30 or 3:00 at this point. I get in my tub and I call my doula. I start breathing and she was like, “All right. Let’s do some meditation.” I had also done some HypnoBirthing between learning for Amelia’s birth and then for Arley’s birth. So I am doing HypnoBirthing in the tub. She is guiding me. My contractions were 11 minutes apart, so they weren’t that close. So she was like, “Okay. We are just going to let you stay in the tub. Meditate. Stay in your zone. Let’s see what happens.”

Shortly after, not even an hour, she was like, “Okay. You are eight minutes. You’re seven. Oh, okay.” She was like, “Okay, Ali. You need to wake Justin up. You are getting to be close to six minutes apart. You have got to get ready to go.” I was like, “Wait, what?” You know, because I was so in the zone at that point. I wasn’t even listening to her count. I was so in my zone in the tub, in the darkness, meditating, really bringing the affirmations of having my VBAC and talking to Arley. I was just so in it, more so than I think I even realized I was. 

And so she was like, “You need to get out. You need to get up. You need to get to the hospital.” Justin, of course, doesn’t know. My husband doesn’t hear me. He is sleeping and snoring. I am screaming from the bathtub and he doesn’t hear me. I’m like, “Babe. Babe! I am in labor. We have to go to the hospital.” He doesn’t hear me, so my doula calls him and wakes him up. He is like, “What is going on?” She is like, “Ali is in labor. You have got to get ready to go.” 

He goes into the bathroom and of course, he is making fun of me as he usually does and his sarcasm. He is like, “Oh, I hear a ghost or something.” I am like, “Oh my god.” He literally is like, “Oooh. Ooooh. What is that noise? Ooooh.” I am like, “Ha, ha. That is so you.” I am like, “Come over here and squeeze my hands. I am losing my shit.” That is his personality, by the way. 

He gets me out. We are getting everything ready to go and getting everything in the truck to leave. My doula ended up coming down to make sure I was okay, but also because my friend was supposed to be here for Amelia had I gone into labor in the middle of the night, but wasn’t picking up her phone because they probably just thought, “Oh, I am going to hear my phone go off.” And so, my doula came rushing out so that we could leave so that somebody could watch her since we couldn’t bring her, especially with COVID and everything.

She comes and she sees me off. I get in the truck and I am in full-blown active labor. I am transitioning. I am shaking. I’m convulsing. I am screaming. I’m trying to stay zen. I am screaming while I am meditating. This whole thing in his truck. We arrive there. I am screaming when we get out of his truck. They pull up. They bring the wheelchair. I won’t forget. They put me in a wheelchair and they were shoving this mask in my face. I am screaming through the mask. I am trying to rip the mask off because I’m screaming. It was a whole thing.

I get into the room. They get me in and my doula was immediately on my FaceTime. Stacey was like, “Okay.” Thank God for her. She was like, “Turn the lights down. Let’s get it to be zen for her again. Get her out of the bright lights. Let’s calm things down. Justin put out her crystals. Let’s get her intention cards up. Get the little lights up.” Stacey is orchestrating everything from FaceTime. Justin is getting everything together and I am sitting there and breathing through. I am still natural at this point. I am just breathing through my contractions as much as I can and screaming at all of that. 

They checked me and I am 6.5. They’re like, “All right. Well, you’re definitely active and ready to go. You are progressing, so we are going to let you progress.” I think I got to almost a 7, or out of 7, and I really was having a hard time. I was really having a hard time breathing. It was getting really intense. Stacey was like, “Look. If you want to get an epidural, just get the epidural.”

But, I had so much fear around getting an epidural because of Amelia‘s birth. I was like, “I don’t want to. I am too afraid. I don’t want to get stuck. Let me just keep going.” But I wasn’t fully progressing because I was struggling. I was like, “Okay. I’m going to get an epidural.” Luckily at Cedars-- I know some hospitals don’t have this, but Cedars does. I had been advised by a couple of other doulas to get a walking epidural if I could, even though I wouldn’t be walking anywhere, obviously, because of the world, but I could walk in my room. 

And so, I got a walking epidural and for me, that was just enough to take the edge off, but not enough to numb where I could walk around and I could be on the ball. I could do hip exercises on the side of the bed. I could get on all fours. I could keep switching positions. Even when I was in the bed, I had a peanut ball being switched between my legs. I was moving constantly. I was never still. I think that was a really big game changer and helpful for me when it came to progressing because shortly after, I was at complete.

We arrived at the hospital around 6:00 a.m. and by noon, I was complete. It was pretty fast for me compared to Amelia. It was like, “Oh, wow. This is happening. I have got to complete.” The doctor comes in. Dr. Brock is like, “All right. You are complete, but you are not--” I forget the stations when you are at the last station, but you’re not fully there where the baby can come out. What is that called?

Julie: Yeah, like +2 or +3 station.

Meagan: Yeah, or even +4.

Ali: Yes. Yeah, whatever it was, like the lowest one. I was almost there, but I wasn’t there yet. He had said that. I was like, “Oh, okay.” He was like, “But don’t worry. We are going to figure out getting her down. Let’s get you to move more. Let’s do some more pushing. Let’s do this.” You know, I didn’t realize that because of Amelia‘s birth, even though the labor was so intense with her, my body remembered that, which is wild. The muscle memory of that.

I hadn’t really fully pushed with Amelia, so it was pushing like a new mom, which I didn’t expect to go through. I pushed for 2.5 hours after we had been told I was ready to go and was complete. I was really working, working. I had the squat bar. I was pushing. I was on the ground. I was on all fours. I was doing everything possible to move her, and keep going, and move her down and everything.

She was just right there, but just wasn’t happening and then I spiked a fever. Dr. Brock came in and he was like, “Okay. I was all for everything you were doing, but now you spiked a fever. I am concerned for you and the baby. I am sure everything is fine, but I don’t want to take any chances, so these are the last pushes and then we are going to have to figure something out because I am not going to let you go longer because of the fever.” Of course, they had given me medication at this point to bring the fever down.

And so, he had turned to me and he was like, “All right. We are going to do a vacuum to try and help you get her out. Once I get the vacuum, you are going to have to push with all your might. It is just going to be to assist and then you’re going to have to push her out.” He was like, “When I tell you to push, I mean you’d better push with every single thing in you and push until you can’t breathe.” I was like “Oh, okay.” I remember being in the bed, and looking at Justin, and even reflecting on it myself, and being like, “Oh my gosh. I cannot believe I got this far and here we are again. I am freaking going to have a C-section.” 

I was really starting to go into fight-or-flight. I was getting really, really upset. My doula was trying to calm me over FaceTime. She was like, “It’s okay. We are still in control. It’s okay. Breathe. Just allow things to play,” and I am in total panic at this point. I looked at Justin and I said, “Can I have my earbuds please?” I put them in my ear. I turned on one of my fear-releasing meditations. I shut my eyes. I remember praying really, really hard and just being really intentional. Like, “I can make this happen. This is going to happen. I can do this. Come on, Ali. You can do this.”

Before I knew it, it was like, “Push.” I pushed so hard and the next thing I knew, there she was on my chest, screaming. I was hysterically crying. I couldn’t even believe that she was there. I honestly didn’t even feel her fully come out because everything was happening. It was so wild. I remember them putting her on my chest and I was bawling because I was like, “Oh my god, I did it. Oh my god. Oh my god. She’s here. Oh my god.” It was the most surreal experience and so healing in that moment for me of just being like, “Holy crap. I did it. My body did it.” Even now, I get choked up because I still can’t believe it happened.

Meagan: I’m sure in that whole moment there was just such that rush.

Julie: Yeah, wild.

Meagan: Yeah, okay. I have to do this right now. And then, boom. You did it.

Julie: Yeah. It sounds like she came so fast when it was time.

Ali: Yeah, well once he put the vacuum on and was like, “Okay, push.” He gave me that bar--

Meagan: The assistance, yes.

Ali: Yeah, the assistance and gave me that bar and was like, “Push down.” I just remember I pushed with everything in me. I pushed and holy crap. She was here. She was 9 pounds, 3 ounces, by the way.

Meagan: Yeah, girl!

Ali: Amelia was 8 pounds, 7 ounces and I thought that was big. Arley was 23.5 inches long so it was like, oh my gosh. I couldn’t believe that I got her out. It was truly amazing to me. It was so empowering. It was like, “Holy crap. My body did it.” It was so amazing. After having her on my chest and holding her, I was just bawling. I just couldn’t even believe it happened.

Meagan: Yeah. I’m sure it was just such an amazing moment. It sounds like she just needed to come into that pubic bone and then she was there. Oh, well congratulations.

Ali: Thank you.

Meagan: So awesome.

Ali: It was so magical. It really was. I just felt so much support around me through my whole pregnancy. It’s funny you say the pubic bone too because my chiropractor-- she kept adjusting me. Even the day before I went into labor, she adjusted me. She kept adjusting me and adjusting my hips and doing this, and my sciatica and everything to make sure I was as aligned as possible. But I think in a way it was kind of like me being tested, like how bad do you want this thing? Because when you guys were saying “the rush”, I felt like I could have either gone into fight-or-flight and I could have been like, “Oh my gosh,” in panic and allowed myself to not have that release that you guys talk about all the time, but I think because I did release, and I did allow her to come, and I got really intentional and listened to the fear releasing in my ears, I think it was all divine. And there she was.

Julie: Yeah. It’s incredible what can happen when you have that release of emotions. Fear in the birth space is real and it can really hold you up if you let it.

Ali: Mhmm, yeah. You’re right.

Meagan: So awesome. Now, she is just crawling around and being such a big girl.

Julie: Oh, such a fun age.

Ali: It is wild how fast. I feel like I just had her and I am like, “Oh my gosh, she is already crawling everywhere.” I literally turn around and she is down the hallway and I am like, “Oh, hey girlfriend.” It is crazy.

Julie: Wow.

Ali: You know, but in a wild way, this whole thing with the pandemic and 2020, for me, is such a blessing because it has been such a healing time for me between my VBAC, and having the family time, and having my husband home to be there with me with my girls, and truly not experience postpartum depression. I am just so grateful for it.

Julie: That’s awesome. That is really cool. We are living in a really crazy world right now and whenever we hear incredible birth stories coming out of this pandemic, it warms my heart. I don’t know. I could go off on five or six different tangents right now, but Meagan, what should we talk about? What should we talk about for an educational piece?

Meagan: Well, I love that she talked about fear releasing and self-advocacy. One of the things that I love that your doula did-- so birth workers, listen up if you are listening. They sat and they recorded. I love that she was like, “We are going to wrap it up, and seal it with a bow, and send it off.” That is so cool. It is such a powerful way, just talking about it, and getting it out there, and hearing yourself say it, and then maybe even watching it, and then saying, “Okay. That is how I felt and this is how I feel. This is why I am moving on from this fear because of this.” And then of course moving on and doing the other activities. It is so powerful.

I know I probably have talked about this until I’m blue in the face, but it really came down for me-- like, I had worked through so much and there was still stuff that I found in the very moment of labor that I didn’t realize that I had worked through. It’s just so, I don’t know. It is just so crazy how you think you have worked through it, and then it comes up, and you are like, “Oh, wait. That didn’t come up during my pregnancy,” and you have to work through it again. But if you have practiced and worked really, really hard processing during your pregnancy, then it won’t be so foreign. That’s the word that is coming to my mind and maybe that’s the wrong word.

Julie: Unfamiliar, maybe?

Meagan: Yeah. It just won’t be so unfamiliar and foreign in the moment to process. I know it would make processing during that time easier.

Julie: Yeah. I agree, 100%. Gosh, I mean, Meagan and I have both seen the same thing with our individual doula clients and working with parents through our VBAC preparation course. I actually just had a one-on-one consult with somebody preparing for VBAC a couple of weeks ago. Most of the time when we get hung up, and when there are things holding us back, and we feel like something’s not quite right, it is stemming from fear. When you can take out that fear, and write it out, and tear it up, and break it apart, and figure out where it is coming from, that is when you can really move past it in order to create a really, really clear birth space that is conducive to a nice, peaceful birth that is just happy and that you can look back on with really fond memories.

Ali: Yeah. I love that. I think it is so well beautifully said and so true. You know, it is so crazy because again, when we were talking at the beginning of this podcast, with Amelia, it was obviously a normal world. I was at events and doing all of this glamorous stuff. I was doing maternity photoshoots and all of these things. And you know, fast forward to Arley and it was like, stuck at home and especially in California, very much locked down. You know, everything. It was so wild how different in that sense the world was, but yet, even in such a chaotic world, it really was such a peaceful birth. And then in such a normal world, Amelia was such a chaotic birth. 

So I just find that, like you were just saying, so telling when it comes to that fear and that processing of all of that and the actual intention around it. It really does, in my opinion, make such a difference. I have seen it in my own birth.

Julie: Yeah. It absolutely does. Well, Ali, not Avril. It was so great to talk to you. Oh my gosh, I feel like we could just sit here and chat about everything for hours. I feel like we are friends. I just love at the end of the episode, all these podcast episodes that we do where sometimes, it’s really hard to say goodbye. It’s like, “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.” “No, you hang up.”

Meagan: I know. It is so true. So true. We are like, “Wait. Can we hang out, like, tomorrow?”

Ali: Right?

Julie: Let’s go to lunch. Where do you live again?

Meagan: California.

Ali: Yes, please. When we are open and normal, please do. I mean, I am so honored to be here. I truly love everything you guys are doing with your show and everything at The VBAC Link. I truly, like I said, still listen. I tell everyone to listen. I just think it is such an amazing space for women that need that kind of support. Especially women that really do want to have a VBAC and don’t have those kinds of resources. I think that too many times we are told so much in birth, but especially with VBAC, “No,” and they put the fear around it from the beginning.

I was so grateful that when that woman tried to really instill the fear in me that I knew better and that I was able to work past it because I feel for so many that just don’t have that. That’s why I was so grateful when I landed on The VBAC Link podcast because I was like, “Oh my gosh. Look at all of these amazing stories. I could be one of them too.” And like, holy crap. Here I am.

Meagan: You are one of them.

Julie: Full circle. I love it.

Ali: Yes. Yes.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Today’s episode is vulnerable, raw, and beautifully courageous. In the first of a two-part episode series, we meet Lexus. Lexus shares the trauma of her first birth which ended in a crash Cesarean. She walks us through her anxiety, shock, the negligence of the hospital staff, and how she was stripped of the first birth experience she had envisioned.

Lexus is currently pregnant with her second baby and is preparing for a VBAC. She shows us how she is finding healing even before her redemptive birth outcome. We can’t wait for Lexus to come back and share her second birth story!

We wish birth trauma didn’t exist. 

We wish we could wave a magic wand and make it all disappear. 

But here at The VBAC Link, we also know how resilient you are. We see what you overcome. We know what victories you are capable of. We love you and continue to be inspired by you, Women of Strength.

Trigger Warning: We know that unfortunately, many of our listeners can relate to the trauma Lexus shares. This episode may bring up unresolved feelings from a previous birth. Please give yourself grace and use discretion when listening. 

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

Alexis Joy Center for Perinatal Mental Health 

Episode sponsor

This episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.

Interested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Meagan: Hey everyone, this is Meagan. I wanted to drop a little trigger warning here for this awesome episode. This episode is about sharing birth trauma and how to process it leading up to this person‘s VBAC. We just wanted to let you know it may be traumatic listening to it and bring up past fears or feelings that you may have had from your previous birth. Dive right in though, she gets really raw and emotional and shares what she does to work through her trauma.

Meagan: Hello, hello. It is Wednesday and we have another amazing podcast episode for you today. This is The VBAC Link podcast and you are with Meagan, myself, and our assistant, Sarah, today instead of Julie. Sarah, we are so excited that you are with us.

Sarah: Oh, I am so excited to be here.

Meagan: I am going to totally tattletale on Julie. She is normally by the book, on time, total scheduler, like awesome. I am the one that is scatterbrained. When we scheduled today’s podcast, she forgot she had a prior commitment. She is actually getting her teeth drilled right now, so probably not having as much fun as us. Poor Julie. Send her some love over there at the dentist. 

But we are excited today to be recording with our friend, Lexus. Today’s episode is going to be a little bit different than some of our other episodes. As you know if you have been listening with us, we tend to share VBAC or CBAC stories. Today, Lexus is going to be sharing her C-section story and she is actually pregnant right now, due this year, and hasn’t had her VBAC yet, but is preparing for her VBAC. And so, we want to share her story today and what she is doing to prepare for her VBAC. But of course, before we dive into her awesome story, we want to turn the time over to Sarah to share one of our awesome reviews from one of our listeners.

Sarah: Yes. I have a review from Danielle Clady. She left the review on our Google podcast, which is exciting because we don’t get very many reviews on our Google podcast. She says, “I have been listening to this podcast for MONTHS while I drive for work as I prepare for my VBAC in July.  I recommend it to all expecting moms (including first-time moms) because I WISH I knew about it before my first birth. The podcast is the reason I have hired a doula. Fingers crossed restrictions are lifted and she can come to the hospital!”

So exciting. It doesn’t say when. Let’s see, July. So she would’ve had her baby already because she left this review in May.

Meagan: In May, okay. So if you are listening still, write us and let us know how your birth went. We always love to know the follow-ups. Maybe we should be like Julie and stalk her in our community to see if she is in there and has posted.

Sarah: Yes.

Meagan: Do you know what? I love that she said that she recommends it to all first-time moms. That is something that I think is awesome about this podcast. It really isn’t just targeted to people wanting to VBAC. It really is something that all birthers can listen to because we are learning in each episode ways to avoid Cesarean, ways to advocate for ourselves, education pieces on how to help our bodies be ready. It is just so awesome. So if you are someone or if you know someone who is pregnant, or expecting, or wanting to start trying, definitely send them this podcast because we would love to reach all the moms out there and help them achieve the birth of their dreams.

Sarah: Oh, 100%. I recommend this podcast to everyone I know regardless of if they are first-time moms or if they have already had a baby and didn’t have a Cesarean because there is something in every episode that someone can relate to in their birth.

Julie: Do you want a VBAC but don’t know where to start? It’s easy to feel like we need to figure it all out on our own. That’s what we used to do, and it was the loneliest and most ineffective thing we have ever done. That’s why Meagan and I created our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents, that you can find at thevbaclink.com. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. 

Together, Meagan and I have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head on over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there. 

Meagan: Okay, we are so excited to dive into this episode. I definitely think that there is going to be some emotion in this because as I have been reading through Lexus‘ story, there were some hard points in her labor, and her journey, and her birth. We are excited for her to share them and to share the tips on how we can better prepare for the next birth. Lexus, we would like to turn the time over to you.

Lexus: Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited. This is my very first podcast, so I am super eager, and yeah, like you said, pretty nervous about the emotions that might come up, but I am embracing them because that is part of the journey as well.

Meagan: Yes.

Lexus: Yeah, so I can just get started. Back in April, I was 40 weeks and 6 days pregnant with my son, Theodore. We were getting ready to go in. It was my induction day. It was a Monday. I went into the hospital at 8:00 a.m. My husband and I were like two kids going to the candy shop. We were so excited. We were smiling from ear to ear. 

We really just had no idea how fast things can change and flip. I definitely think-- see? The emotions have started already. I am sorry. I definitely think it is something that going forward, instead of saying that, “This is my plan.” I am having a lot of, “These are my goals,” for the next birth. That has really helped put it into perspective that things can go not according to plan.

Meagan: Definitely. That’s such a great point. We talk about birth plans and stuff. I have over the years steered my clients away from calling it a birth plan or having a “plan” because we know things can change. And so, if we can know our preferences and try to achieve all of our goals in the process, sometimes if they do change, then that plan doesn’t seem to have failed.

Lexus: Absolutely. Yeah. That was the biggest part for me. So, yeah. We went in and we started the very long and really difficult process of induction. When they first told me about going in for my induction, I really wasn’t anticipating everything that was going to happen. The first thing that they did when I got in there was the initial height, weight, etc. But then we had a doctor come in and say, “We are going to do the Foley catheter on you.” 

I really wasn’t thinking, but looking back on it in hindsight, that for me was so-- I mean, it was scary. It was painful. I never want to scare women or moms from the process because it is so different for everyone. But I think there is something to be said that when it comes to forcing your body to do something that it’s not yet ready to do, that can take a toll. It truly does.

I first got the Foley catheter and instantly as soon as it was placed, the doctors were taking off their gloves and the nurse was trying to fix the monitor and put it back on my son’s heartbeat. She couldn’t get it onto his heart. She couldn’t find it. The doctors were about to just walk out of the room and leave and the nurse said, “Aren’t you guys going to stay here for a minute?” She was moving it around and I really wasn’t even thinking that it was a big deal in the moment, because I just kept thinking, “Oh, he flipped around. He is a super active baby in there. He’s always kicking. He is always moving.”

And then, I started to see the doctors look more and more at the monitor and look more, not-- I honestly wouldn’t say concerned. It just looked like they were almost studying it. All of a sudden, she was moving it around and they call a Condition O and the bells start going off. My husband and I were sitting there like, “Well, we don’t really know what a Condition O is.” We were just kind of, you know, “They arere trying to find it. They needed some backup, whatever.”

And then all of a sudden, 20 to 30 people come rushing into the room and they are telling me to get on my side, get on the other side, get on my hands and knees, get up and they threw an oxygen mask at me. That’s when I really knew, “Oh my goodness. Something is seriously wrong.” I just remember being on my hands and knees and thinking to myself, “I can’t support myself. My arms are shaking. My legs are shaking. I can’t support myself. I can’t do it.”

I remember looking around the room, looking for someone that could be my focal point. My husband is great but he was just as scared. We had a swarm of people in the room and he was pushed to the back so other people can do what they have to do. That for us was a very heavy, emotional moment. I start crying. I start panicking. You know, shaking. It was really heavy. All of a sudden, I don’t know how, but the heartbeat of my son came back on and it was perfect. Looking back and when I asked, they had said that only two or three minutes had passed, but it felt like hours of that panic and not being able to comprehend what had happened in such a short amount of time.

And so, they said, “His heart rate is back. It’s stabilized. He is great.” I rested myself back on the bed and I am still shaking. I am still-- you know, I was in shock. I was traumatized in that moment right there. They come in again and they say, “Wow. We know that was super scary. We just want to explain to you that was a Condition O. We were getting you prepped to go in for an emergency C-section. We had to get your son out right in that minute. It was serious.” 

We started to just look at each other and look around like, “Oh my gosh. How is this happening? What is happening?” And so they said, “Your anxiety caused your son to go into distress in that moment.” I remember going, “Oh my gosh. I haven’t even given birth yet and I’m already messing up.”

Being told that your anxiety is causing your son to go into distress, I mean, how can you process that? Where is the evidence behind this? Where is-- you know? How can you blame that moment on me and on the nervousness I was feeling when it just didn’t make sense to me? I just remember sitting there and being told this but feeling still so numb from everything that had happened the last five minutes or however long it had been in that time.

Meagan: You know, that is interesting too because your anxiety-- I mean, anxiety in general. I would have anxiety in that moment. That anxiety, you may have been anxious going into the situation, but then the anxiousness was created by what was happening. That is very interesting. I am sorry. I am sorry that you were blamed.

Lexus: Yeah. That is exactly what it was. It felt like in that moment there wasn’t really an explanation for what had happened, so it was trying to placate or say, “Well, this is what caused it. It won’t happen again if we just keep this in line, etc.”

That was definitely something that had already set me up for the feelings of going, “Oh my gosh. What is going on?” They told us over and over, “It was a fluke. There is absolutely no reason it should happen again. It was an incredibly rare circumstance that it would happen.” They suggested getting the epidural so that if something did happen, I could be awake for my C-section, but there was absolutely no reason to suspect that it would happen. 

I initially had said I didn’t want the epidural going into it just because it scared me-- the risks and the procedure of getting it scared me in general. It was a scary process to think about. But I said, “Okay, yeah. That is something that I need to do so that I can get the most out of this experience and I can be there for the birth of my son.”

I signed all of the waivers and all of the information. They came in and they started to put the epidural in. As soon as it was placed, I knew something was wrong. I remember saying almost instantly, “Only half of me is going numb.” They kept saying, “Well, you have to lay on your other side because the epidural and the medication works by gravity.” I’ve done a lot of research since that time and I know that is not correct at all. Epidurals don’t work via gravity.

They had kept telling me, “You have to lay on that side. Keep pushing the button. Keep medicating. Keep switching, but stay on that side if it is still not getting the medication.” So I said, “Okay. We will try it.” 

I kept laboring. Over the course of the next 10 hours that I labored, I requested, from my memory, four times for a provider to come in and check the placement of the epidural because I still didn’t think that it was correct. My husband remembers more-- more times that I asked, that is, and I remember four very vividly saying, “Something is not right. I have been on my left side this entire time. Something is going on.” Over the course of 10 hours, not a single person from the anesthesiology team came to check on the placement of my epidural. I briefly had providers come in. I shared my concern and it was, “All right, we will pass that along.”

When the nurse came in, I said, “Listen, please. Can someone have someone come in and check the epidural? It is not right.” They said, “Well, are you pushing the button?” I said, “Yes. I am pushing the button.” They just said, “All right. We will go let them know. We will send someone in.”

So, 10 hours passed. It is insane to think that 10 hours passed and I wasn’t properly-- the epidural was just in my back and not being monitored. They are supposed to be monitored. They are supposed to be checked for placement. When changeovers in staffing happen, there should be someone in there checking it and no one came.

And so, I labored. The Foley catheter came out when-- jeez, I think I was 5 centimeters dilated? I can’t remember specifically. That’s when they said, “Okay, we will start the Pitocin. We will keep you going.” I continued to laboring. I believe it was about 9:30 at night that they had said to me, “All right. We are going to check you again.” I was 9 centimeters. I remember looking at my husband and being like, “Oh my gosh. We did it. We are almost there. I am doing great. We are doing great. Everything is great. Nothing scary is happening again. We are doing a good job.”

They said, “All right. We are going to have someone come in. We will break your waters and--” Sorry. This is when it starts getting really heavy. “We will--” I’m sorry. “We will have someone come in and we will break your waters. We think that everything will start happening very quickly and you are going to meet your baby soon.” I remember the doctors left and I remember looking at my husband and saying, “We did it. We are here. We are going to see him soon.” 

We even talked about and joked like, “Where can we set up our phone in the room so that we can record everything and get everything on video so that we can watch it back and we can remember this forever?”

I remember saying, “We’ve got to call in my OB. We have to call her. We have to tell her that I made it to 9 centimeters and I did it and we are ready.” And then everything starts to get very heavy to look back and to sort through those memories.

My OB came in. She was like, “Oh my gosh, you are doing awesome. You are doing so well. You progressed so fast. Normally first labors can go longer, you are doing great.” My waters had already been ruptured by that point. And so, we were just taking in the moment. 

All of a sudden, my contractions were really, really close together. But I thought, “Well, I am 9 centimeters. That means I am probably just getting to 10 and I will be ready to go.”

And then, those bells that I know I will hear for the rest of my life started going off again. This time my husband and I knew that there were going to be a lot of people coming in, but that it was a fluke and that everything was going to be fine in the next minute. I remember hearing over the loudspeaker, “Condition O. Labor and Delivery Room 11. Condition O.”

Everyone came in and then they said, “Her contractions are too close. We have to stop the Pitocin.” And so, they stopped administering the Pitocin. They gave me medication to stop the contractions, but they were too strong. I was contracting about every two minutes at that point and they said, “The baby is in distress. We need to fill her sac up with water again so that he has room.”

I remember just feeling like, all of these people were coming at me and pushing these things inside of me. I was just going, “What do I do? What do I do?” just sitting there and it wasn’t working. I don’t know if the water wasn’t retaining or what happened and so then they said, “We still can’t get him on the monitor. We need to attach a monitor to his head.” And so, they were grabbing a monitor and they were trying to attach it to his head. I just kept thinking to myself, “Please, please, please just find the heartbeat. Please, just-- everything is fine. He is going to be fine. Everything is okay.” 

They kept saying, “Get on your side. On the other side. Get on your hands and knees. Get up. Move.” I remember trying so hard to get myself moving as fast as I could, but I had the epidural and at nine months pregnant, I was a bigger girl.

It was hard to get up in that moment and as fast as they wanted me to. I was trying to move, trying to listen to their requests and instructions as much as I could, as fast as I could, but I just felt like I wasn’t able to move fast enough. I remember they said, “Let’s get back on your back.” My OB looked at me and she said, “Lexus, I am so sorry. We are going to bring you right now. We have got to make sure he is okay. We are going to bring you in for a C-section now.” I remember saying, “No. No. That’s not how this was supposed to go. That is not what we had planned. This is not anything that we had planned for.” I just kept saying, “No. No.”

I looked up at the new anesthesiologist who was in there and I said, “My epidural hasn’t been working. There’s something wrong with my epidural. I don’t know what’s going on, but only one half of me is numb.” He said, “Oh, we will fix that,” and he pushed another dose of medication. They unhooked me and I looked at my husband and I said, “Please, please come be with me,” because I was so afraid that he wasn’t going to be in the room with me.

They were wheeling me down the halls and I just remember seeing again, “Condition O, Labor and Delivery Room 1”1 on the signs in the hallway and hearing the bells. They get me to the delivery room and a doctor I hadn’t met came up to me and said, “I am going to take care of your baby. I am going to make sure your baby is okay.” In that moment, I said, “I am going to die. I am dying. I know I am dying. I am never going to meet my son and my husband needs to be here. I don’t know where he is.” The last time I had seen him, he was putting on his scrubs and he was excited and he said, “I am going to be right there. They’re coming back for me.”

And so, they wheeled me into the operating room and I remember some of the nurses were almost frustrated with me because they said, “Get up and get yourself on the bed.” I remember going, “How?” Do you know? How was I supposed to transfer myself over to their table with an epidural being nine months pregnant and being in a lying position, transfer myself over to another bed?

Meagan: They actually thought you could move to the other bed by yourself?

Lexus: Yes. Yes.

Meagan: That’s wild.

Lexus: Yes. They just said, “Get up and climb over.” I was like, “How? How can I do this?” I just remembered thinking, “How?” like again, “How am I supposed to do this?” And so, by the time that I finally got help to be moved over, I kept saying, “Where is Bo? I need Bo.” Bo is my husband.

I kept saying, “I need Bo. Where is Bo?” I’m sorry. They kept saying, “He is on his way. We are going to get him. We just have to get you set up.” They put up the blue sheet and I looked at one of the nurses and I said, “Please, don’t let my baby die. Please, don’t let my baby die.” 

I remember they pushed more medication through the IV and they were poking my sides. They poked my right side and asked if I felt it and I said, “No.” And then, they poked my left side and asked if I felt it and I said, “Yes.” They said other things I don’t even remember and then they tried it again. They poked my right side. I didn’t feel anything. They poked my left side. I still felt it. And then they said, “All right,” and took something. 

I just remember it being so sharp. They pushed on my abdomen and they said, “Do you feel this?” I said, “Yes.” They said, “That’s it. Put her under.” I remember going, “What?” Like, not knowing what that even meant, and then a mask was over my face and that was it.

That was the last thing that I heard and experienced in that moment.

Meagan: And had Bo made it back in there, yet? No?

Lexus: No. Nope. He was still waiting to be brought back. He was still in the room, waiting. I’m sorry. And so, my son was delivered a very, very healthy baby. Thank God. He was 8 pounds, 2 ounces. He was born at 10:28, but these are all things that I have had to be told about my son because I wasn’t there. I wasn’t. 

Physically I was there, but I was asleep. I wasn’t taking in those moments. I didn’t hear his cry. I didn’t experience anything like that. Instead, I woke up two hours after he was born and I was still so groggy and under the medication and disoriented that I couldn’t open my eyes, but I just kept hearing him crying. 

And so, instinctually, laying in the bed, and this is something that I will have with me until the day that I die. I was laying there and screaming for help because I couldn’t move my legs and get up to go get my baby. I couldn’t see him because I was so disoriented. I couldn’t open my eyes and look around to see what was going on. I just kept screaming for help. I hear my husband and my mom saying, “Everything is okay. He is okay. He is perfect. He is here. And, look. He is here. Open your eyes. He is right here.” And finally, when I could open my eyes, I remember being-- the first time that I could hold him and just looking at him, I was just so not present and still so confused. I can’t even think of an emotion that I felt other than just confusion.

This is one of the beautiful things about that instinctual motherhood where I had had that C-section and I had just had a massive incision on my abdomen, but as soon as they placed him in my arms, I just started rocking back-and-forth. I remember my mom saying, “Lexus, you have got to stop. You have a huge incision on your stomach. You’ve got to stop. You’re going to hurt yourself.” But I just remember that instinctual needing to sway with him and needing to rock him and calm him down. So that was for me, something that was beautiful in that moment I guess I would say, just feeling like as soon as I had him, I could move. I could sway and I could be in touch with that part of me I was having that identity of being a mom.

But there were still a lot of pieces that I wasn’t understanding or wasn’t picking up. I kept having to ask my husband, “You were there, right? You saw everything, right? You got to cut his umbilical cord, right?”

At the time, he was like, “Yeah, I was there. It was crazy. It was so amazing. Such an experience.” And then, I felt good because I felt like that was one thing I had done right. I had advocated for myself to say, “My husband needs to be here. Where is Bo? Bo needs to be here.” 

It wasn’t until later-- I think I had asked him like 10 more times, he finally said, “Honey, I am so sorry. I didn’t want to tell you this in the moment because I didn’t want to upset you more. But, I couldn’t be there and the nurses came back to tell me that I had a baby boy and that everything was okay.” He said, “That was it. That was all my experience of that was.”

And so, of course, the timing just added up to be the perfect storm. We were in the elevator moving to the maternity side of the hospital. I had just found this out and I was sobbing. Oh my goodness, I was so sad and just feeling like the one thing I thought I did right, I didn’t do right. I just robbed my husband of this experience. It was his first experience becoming a dad and I robbed him of that.

So when we get to the maternity side though, what they see is a woman hysterically sobbing and the nurses say overtop to my husband, “Watch out for her, Dad. She is at a greater risk for postpartum depression. It will start with her not eating or not sleeping.” I just remember laying there and being like, “Am I not here right now?”

Sarah: Are you kidding me?

Lexus: Just say this over me like I was just a body.

Meagan: “Watch out for her, Dad?”

Lexus: Yeah.

Meagan: Ugh, ugh. I have no words.

Lexus: Yeah. I just remember looking at my husband and looking back at the nurse and going, “What? What?” You know, just not even being able to fully process it. And so, that was the extent of my birth experience with Teddy. 

Trauma is definitely a difficult thing because it has the ability to block out certain parts and then have it pop up at random moments. That was pretty much the key parts that I wanted to reiterate and talk about because throughout my time studying, and researching, and trying to learn more, and understand this through and through, I have heard of a lot of women talking about epidural issues, misplacements, asking for help and not getting it, and you know? That was something for me that I thought, “How is this happening?” How are so many women being ignored and not being listened to when they say and advocate for themselves in a very vulnerable, raw moment of giving birth, “Hey, this isn’t right.” They are not being taken seriously.

Going forward planning for this VBAC, I have honestly done so, so much to educate myself, to grow in ways that I didn’t know were possible. I saw a provider’s mental health program professional that specialized in perinatal mental health and that was the most healing and therapeutic process that I could have ever-- I truly am so blessed to have found them, to have used them as a resource, and to go through so much treatment with them and grow. I graduated from my birth trauma course— cognitive processing therapy. I couldn’t believe how impactful and how meaningful the entire therapy was and how much it really-- for lack of a better phrase, it lit a fire under me to learn to advocate and then to talk about it.

I filed a grievance with the hospital. That was part of my process that I decided was what I needed to do within my CPT. I filed a grievance. I had the grievance meeting with them and I said, “Listen. This isn’t right. What happened to me is not right and I can almost guarantee you that it is happening to other women.” For a moment, it even crossed my mind like, “Do I need to contact an attorney? Do I need to reach out to someone?” But it became that aspect of, if I were to contact an attorney, if I were to reach out for some type of medical negligence or medical malpractice, etc., I would be handed a piece of paper that said, “We will give you X amount if you don’t talk about this again and if you don’t tell anyone what happened.” I sat there for a minute and just went, “Nothing is going to come from this. Being silenced is going to do nothing.”

Meagan: Oh my gosh.

Lexus: That was with my consulting with many different professionals. It wasn’t anything directly from the hospital that said, “We’ll give you an NDA.” It was really looking at, how are medical malpractice suits handled? It is notoriously with, “We will give you some money if you just don’t talk about it again.” And so, I decided to take the route of talking about it, and researching, and telling my story because it happened to me. I know it happened to me and I know what is happening to other women. 

The only thing that will change from that moment or I guess I should say really, nothing is going to change what happened during my birth. But talking about it, and advocating, and pushing for trauma-informed care, and pushing for trauma-informed clinicians, and looking at the policies and how they are either being applied or not really just has been the best and most therapeutic way of moving forward from this.

Meagan: Wow. Wow. What a heavy experience you have had so far.

Lexus: Yeah. It was absolutely everything I never anticipated ever happening for sure. That has definitely led into why I am using a lot of goals for this pregnancy. A goal of mine is for a VBAC and to reach that goal. I am putting in the steps of studying, asking my doctor what their rate of VBAC is, reaching out to other moms, listening to podcasts, and really trying to take it all in, asking about hospital policies how they go about VBACs, how they go about emergencies, Condition O’s, really trying to educate myself and put as much information in my pocket as I can so that in that moment, it is almost muscle memory to know these things, and to push for them, and advocate for them, so I am not scrambling at the last minute.

Meagan: Definitely. So, provider-wise now, what have you done to find the provider that is right for you now?

Lexus: So actually, I am still going there.

Meagan: Or have you found one?

Lexus: It’s going to sound strange enough. I am still with the same provider that I was with for the birth of my son.

Meagan: Oh really?

Lexus: Yes. You know, my provider is incredible and I firmly believe that had they been there the entire duration of my labor experience, things would have absolutely been different. My provider listens, cares, knows me and has been there. I definitely think that things would have been different, but it also goes to say that there is a really strong trauma bond there. This was the provider that was there during those moments where everything went from 0 to 100, and performed the C-section, and made sure my husband got to at least meet my son and be included in the process as much as possible. So, it’s definitely something that I am still really working on. Is this a bond that-- I know it’s a trauma bond, but is it anything that is going to-- basically, I would be delivering in the same hospital.

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that the place itself could be a trigger.

Lexus: Absolutely. Absolutely. That’s something that I am really working on moving forward. That goes partly with my research and asking, talking to doctors, reading about doctors. “What are you doing to be trauma-informed? What education are you still pursuing to make sure that you are up-to-date on birth trauma and moving forward with the process of delivering another baby given such a heavy, heavy trauma that was experienced the first time?” And so, it’s a process. It’s really-- it’s still working and I am still trying to navigate everything and go through the motions of it all.

Trauma has a very, very difficult way of manifesting itself with the trauma bond. It’s interesting, and it’s sad, and it’s heavy, and it’s emotional, and it’s all of these things. It’s a learning process and so, I am still reaching out. I am still in touch with my amazing psychologist and birth trauma therapist and working through all of these things trying to figure out what is the best course of action moving forward. But, yeah. It is a process. I have some time, thankfully.

Meagan: Yeah, yes. You’ve got a few months.

Lexus: Yeah.

Meagan: I am so proud of you for doing all of this and working through this. It is a really hard experience to want to touch and go back on, you know? To reflect back on. I think a lot of the time we as human beings, we process our trauma by avoiding it.

Lexus: Yes.

Meagan: And pushing it away, and compressing it down, and you are bringing it back to light, and even walking through the same doors to fight through this trauma. And so, yeah. Kudos for sure to you. Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that story. I’m so sorry that you had to go through all of that. It definitely sounds like you were mistreated. It’s not fair and it’s not right. I hope that this next experience is very different and uplifting and healing in itself.

What other tips, before we wrap up, would you feel that parents out there need to know that maybe have gone through trauma similar, or maybe you haven’t even had trauma, or haven’t even had a baby yet to avoid trauma? Or recognizing if your-- is it even possible to recognize if you are going to a traumatic state in the moment? I actually don’t know the answer to that.

Lexus: Yeah, no. I think it’s definitely something that hindsight is always going to be 20/20. Hindsight is always going to show you in those moments when my arms are trembling and I couldn’t process what was going on, I was in a state of shock. I was going through that trauma. Moving forward, speaking to people that have not experienced trauma in any type of way or haven’t experienced it is just, have grace with yourself for not recognizing it in that moment because it is hard. 

When you are going through a traumatic experience, there are so many other things going on that it’s almost impossible to be able to say, “I think I am being traumatized right now.” So moving forward, if you find yourself not experiencing trauma and then all of a sudden you are in treatment for trauma or etc., just to have grace with yourself for not recognizing it in that moment.

I am going to school for counseling psychology. I’m going to school for all of these things. I have been in school for years for this and I still-- in that moment, I had no idea what was going on or what was happening with me. So, it just is looking at-- be patient. Give yourself the grace moving forward and then really trying to figure out how to process it. I guess that’s my tip for having experienced birth trauma. 

I am very, very grateful for the resource that I had at my fingertips being here in Pittsburgh. The Alexis Joy clinic, absolutely. The Alexis Joy Center for Perinatal Mental Health is the full title. I am so, very blessed to have had professionals in perinatal mental health and professionals that have dedicated their careers to learning about birth trauma, experiences during birth, working through all of the emotions that really-- I knew I was in the right place as soon as I started seeing someone. It was exactly where I needed to be, but unfortunately, it is hard to find centers like that nationwide. Do you know what I mean? 

In America, we are definitely behind. We are not up-to-date on perinatal mental health. It is flabbergasting to me that we aren’t up-to-date on this and we aren’t as educated, but that is also why I talk. That is why I advocate because more people need to be specialized in this and know how to handle it properly and in a therapeutic manner. So, I think that would be my biggest tip going forward and to also encourage partners to seek out care and to seek out trauma counseling or perinatal resources for partners as well, because they are going through something at the same time as you are. 

It is different, yes. It is different being the person laying there and the person standing over there, but all the while it is still very-- trauma can impact and does impact everyone in different ways. So, just encouraging families and parents to reach out to specialized providers to do some research on where they can go and knowing that there is a resource for them, knowing that there is always and will be a place that they can go and get the help that they need.

Meagan: I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know that your words will inspire and empower people out there who are, like I said, maybe facing trauma, or wanting to avoid trauma, and wanting to know how to work through these avenues. So, thank you so much again for sharing your story. We hope to make this a two-segment episode, the second one being your second birth. We would love to share that, so definitely keep us posted. We are sending you all the love and luck for this next birth.

Lexus: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Thank you for giving me this opportunity to find therapeutic healing in any and all ways that I can, and for listening. It means so much to me.

Meagan: Absolutely.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Joining us today from Canada is our friend, Jessica. Determined to avoid another brutal Cesarean recovery, Jessica researched extensively and fought for her VBAC rights. When she experienced PROM for the second time, Jessica didn’t allow different opinions from different providers dictate what she knew she deserved. She refused a scheduled Cesarean, reminded providers that their hospital did in fact support VBAC induction, knew when her body needed an epidural, and got the VBAC of her dreams. 

Jessica’s preparation made all the difference in her outcome. We want that to be the case for you too!

Topics discussed today include:

• How to know if all providers at a practice have the same views
• Why you should ask open-ended questions
• PROM: what it is and what to do if it happens to you

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

The VBAC Link T-Shirt Shop

3 Game-Changing Things to do When Your Water Breaks: The VBAC Link Blog

Episode sponsor

This episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.

Sponsorship inquiries

Interested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Meagan: Hello, hello, and welcome everyone. This is The VBAC Link with Julie and Meagan. We have a guest with you today from Canada. Her name is Jessica. She has an awesome story for you today. We were chitchatting a little bit before the episode began. We found out that she found us in the very beginning. It was right after her Cesarean, which is exciting to us because we want people to be able to find us during their journey of healing before they start preparing as well. So, that was really fun and exciting to hear. She has a fun story today. 

A cool highlight of her story is PROM. If you don’t know what PROM means, it means Premature Rupture of Membranes. That’s something that I actually had personally as well. But she was ruptured for quite a while. In fact, I think it was 40-- was it 48 hours? 40 hours?

Jessica: I think 72. Yeah. (Inaudible)

Meagan: 72! 72. But when-- (inaudible) before you started getting things going. Yeah. So, really cool because a lot of times people think that if their waters are broken for longer than 12 or 18 hours, even 24 hours, that it is need for an immediate Cesarean and it is not. I am excited to hear you share that part of your story. 

Review of the Week 

Meagan: As always, we have a Review of the Week, so we are going to dive into that review from Julie really quick before we get into this juicy story.

Julie: Yeah, I love reviews. I think we say it every episode. I can’t speak enough about the reviews because I want to get a little vulnerable here for a minute. Running a podcast is not always sunshine and butterflies. We absolutely love doing it. We love talking to the people that share their stories with us and we love being able to share their stories with you. But these reviews really, really are the things that keep us going when it gets to be a little bit difficult for us. 

So, if you haven’t already, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Google or Facebook. You just never know when you’re going to make our day with a glowing review.

This review is from Apple Podcasts and it’s from futureballad. It’s called “VBAC Support at its Finest.” Just the title makes me smile. She says, “I absolutely love listening to these birth stories and I love how positive Julie and Meagan are! They give facts to go along with each story. They also include birth stories where the VBAC didn’t end up happening. It’s so important to acknowledge it doesn’t always work out. But, a woman of strength is someone who has become empowered by knowledge and uses that knowledge to advocate for herself no matter what the outcome is. I am going to VBAC like a boss in November when I birth our second son. I will be doing it knowing I have the support of The VBAC Link community.”

That makes me so happy. Okay, “VBAC like a boss”-- that is a shirt. It’s in our shop at thevbaclink.com/bombfire. That shirt came from our friend, Emily, who shared her story with us a while back. She said-- there is a “TOLAC like a boss” or a “VBAC like a boss”. I love our little bonfire shirts. We have some new designs coming out from some of our most recent previous episodes.

Also, I want to tell you about an episode that is coming out in the next two or three weeks. We are actually interviewing a few CBAC moms, so parents who tried for a VBAC but ended up in a repeat Cesarean. We are going to talk to five or six of them. They’re going to share with us their stories about what it is like coming out of a birth that didn’t end up like they wanted to, what it’s like to not to get your VBAC, and what they wish people would know about parents who tried so hard for a VBAC but didn’t get the birth that they wanted.

It’s such a powerful episode and we are really excited to put it out to you. That review just reminded me of that. It’s important to us to share that things don’t always go the way you want. While a lot of birth is preparation and education and confidence, some of it is just dang luck.

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: I mean, some of it is just the cards you are dealt and knowing how to deal with those things is important to us to share with you, so that’s why we do it.

Meagan: Yeah, and I love how she said we even-- like you were just highlighting, we even share those stories. We have gotten a lot of messages and actually, I am trying to think of the word.

Julie: How to say it nicely--

Meagan: Really angry. I’m going to say really angry that we do share CBAC stories and it makes me sad when we receive these messages. Although we respect everyone’s opinions and feelings, we want to remind everybody that, just like Julie said, it doesn’t always turn out exactly how we wanted to. But guess what? Even sometimes those experiences-- like my second C-section was not what I wanted. I didn’t want to be on that table again, but it was a healing experience for me and a much more positive experience. I felt so much better walking out of that situation.

These are learning experiences. They are growing experiences. They are healing experiences and even though-- yes, we do. We promote VBAC and we want you guys to know your options for VBAC. It is not fair for us to forget CBAC. It’s just not and it’s important. So, if you are angry, I want to say we are sorry, but we are not sorry at the same time. We respect your decision not to listen to those episodes, but it’s just so important to learn and hear.

A lot of times when we are struggling, I know for me personally when I was struggling, I realized there was still a lot of processing that I needed to do and that’s why I was struggling. So, know that we are here for you and we are sorry if you are one of those angries, but we love you.

Julie: One of those angries.

Meagan: But we love you.

Julie: We love you, no matter if you are angry, or happy, or sad, or excited. We love all of you. If you are looking for stories that are VBAC stories only, you simply have to look at the title. If it says, “So-and-so‘s VBAC”, it’s a VBAC story. If it says “So-and-so‘s CBAC” or “So-and-so’s Uterine Rupture”, then it is a CBAC or a uterine rupture story.

And so, that’s an easy way to sift through them if you’re looking for certain advice.

Meagan: We respect your decision not to listen to whatever ones.

Julie: But we wish you would because it will really help you better prepare.

Episode sponsor

Julie: Do you want a VBAC but don’t know where to start? It’s easy to feel like we need to figure it all out on our own. That’s what we used to do, and it was the loneliest and most ineffective thing we have ever done. That’s why Meagan and I created our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents, that you can find at thevbaclink.com. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. 

Together, Meagan and I have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head on over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there. 

Jessica’s story

Julie: We should probably stop talking about this. You can tell it’s been a while since we have recorded because we are really super chatty right now.

Meagan: We are going to turn the time over to Jessica. Alright, let’s dive in. Ms. Jessica, would you like to start sharing your story and stop listening to us gab?

Jessica: I mean, I am enjoying the conversation, but I only have so much time, so I will get started. I got pregnant with my C-section baby when I was 19. I really thought that I was invincible. I know a lot of teenagers have that mindset. You don’t really think that bad things can happen to you. I thought that I was going to have an all-natural, medication-free birth, and was preparing for that, and would tell my friends how excited I was to be planning this med-free birth. 

My aunt recommended that I went with midwives, so I found local midwives that I went with. Here in Canada, they are covered by a provincial health insurance, so that’s definitely a perk when you are a young mom being able to plan a home birth. So, that’s what we talked about. I wasn’t opposed to a hospital birth, but they were pushing home birth on me, so that was the plan if everything was going well. We would have a home birth with a baby and then if not, we would go to the hospital. But I didn’t think we would end up at the hospital because I thought everything would go as planned, being young and not understanding how births can be complicated.

I was 39 weeks and four days pregnant when my water broke. My first thought was, “Oh, the baby is going to be here in 12 hours now. Everybody goes into labor when their water breaks.” But it didn’t happen. The midwives confirmed the water broke and they said, “Oh, just rest. Sleep it off.” 

Labor usually starts anywhere between 48 to 72 hours. Most people within 24 hours, but they said we could wait until Friday. And then, the next day we woke up. I had a new midwife on-call and she said, “Oh well, we should just go in and induce.” I was eager to meet my baby. I was tired of being pregnant and I didn’t know what an induction was or that there were risks with an induction. I just thought, “Okay, I will get some medication, and get it going, and the baby will be here in a couple of hours.” But, that wasn’t the case.

I was 4 centimeters dilated when I showed up to the hospital, which they said was great, and that labor would probably be quick, and the baby would be here soon. But 12 hours after starting Pitocin, I was still only 4 centimeters. They suggested that we throw the natural birth plan out the window and get an epidural, but that vaginal birth was still possible. After getting the epidural, my baby started having non-reassuring heart rates and because of the lack of progression, they suggested a cesarean. 

I agreed, not knowing that there was anything else we could try to get me to dilate. I had been laying on my back for hours at this point. We didn’t try turning the epidural down. We didn’t even try a peanut ball. We just went straight for the OR. The surgery was three hours after they were concerned about the non-reassuring heart rate. So, looking back I am like, “Was it really that urgent?” They made it seem urgent, but I always question if maybe we could have tried more things. I didn’t know that there were things to try. I thought birth just happened and that you couldn’t really have any power to change that. 

My recovery was horrible. My incision didn’t close properly and it took three months before I was healed enough to function normally. I found that recovery really traumatizing and never wanted another surgery like that again.

When I got pregnant 15 months later, my goal was VBAC all the way. I really didn’t want to end up on the table again, mostly because of the recovery and my fear of missing out on a summer with my toddler. I planned a home birth again. I was more adamant this time that it was going to be a home birth. I rented a pool this time. I made a whole binder filled with resources from The VBAC Link. I printed out stuff from ACOG and SOCG, which is a Canadian version of ACOG, and had all the documents I could about VBAC. 

I would bring it to the midwives because they were more cautious and on the medical side. They said a hospital birth might be a better choice for VBAC, but I was adamant that I wanted to be at home. They supported me with that decision, but then I was 40 weeks and I had been doing everything. Walking every day, The Miles Circuit, bouncing on my ball, drinking all the red raspberry leaf tea, everything I could to get my labor going and then my water broke again.

I was in denial the first day. I didn’t even tell my husband. I kept it to myself. I was like, “This can’t be real.” My water can’t break before labor again because I knew that that wasn’t a good sign for me. Eventually, I did call my midwife and I let her know, but I told her my water had been broken significantly less time than it had because I didn’t want her to push induction. I didn’t want her to push a repeat Cesarean. So, she came. Confirmed that my waters had been broken and we agreed that the next day we would go to the hospital for a non-stress test. 

When we went there, we had a consultation with the OB who looked at me and said, “We have to do a C-section. There is no other option. If we do another induction, you are going to fail. Your body couldn’t birth your first baby.” I guess I had an ultrasound at some point in my other trimester and they were estimating that the baby was going to be in the 97th percentile.

Meagan: Oh man.

Jessica: Yeah. They were like, “This baby is too big. She is not going to--” or, we didn’t know it was a girl. But they said, “The baby is not going to fit. You need a C-section.” I said, “Well, do I have any other options?” They were like, “Well, we can’t force you to have a C-section, so you can go home. And so, we went home.”

Meagan: Good for you. Good for you though.

Jessica: The OB and the midwife weren’t that happy, but I said, “I will come back for NSTs every day until I go into labor. I’m not opposed to that,” but I didn’t want to agree to a C-section. The next morning, I woke up with a green tinge on the pad that was collecting amniotic fluid and I knew that wasn’t a good sign. So, I called the midwife and let her know. I guess they had been scheduling C-sections for me every day in case I agreed to one, so she was like, “We have an OR ready.”

Meagan: Are you serious? They were just doing that behind your back?

Jessica: Yeah. They were just preparing.

Meagan: Interesting.

Jessica: So they said, “You can show up at the hospital at 11:00 a.m. and the baby will be here by 2.” It was the day-- like, when I got pregnant, I was hoping that the baby would come that day. So, I was like, “Okay, I guess at least I got the birthday I wanted.” But in the car, I was crying to my husband saying, “I really don’t want to do surgery and I know that I can’t be pregnant longer with meconium or an infection. It’s not fair to the baby to put my birthing desires ahead of their safety.” 

But I said, “I will take tomorrow as the baby’s birthday if that means I can birth this baby vaginally. What happened was, we showed up at the hospital and it was a different OB on-call. He was the one that had done the big baby ultrasound and predicted the size, so I was like, “Oh shoot. He is definitely going to want to do the C-section. There is no getting out of this now.” 

We show up and everybody is telling him how my birth was “failure to progress” last time, that the induction didn’t go well, and all of the stuff and the reasons why I should have the C-section. He asked them, “Oh, well how long have the membranes been ruptured?” 

They said, “About 48 hours at least at this point.” He said, “Why haven’t we done a Cesarean yet?” They said, “She doesn’t want a C-section.” He was like, “Well, why haven’t they done an induction?” They said, “All of the other OB‘s refuse induction because she can’t give birth essentially.” And so, he asked for my operative report and looked it over. They didn’t list “failure to progress” as the reason for the C-section.

Julie: Awesome.

Jessica: They only listed the non-reassuring fetal heart tones, so he said, “Okay. Based on that, we will do an ultrasound and see how big this baby is.” But he was like, “I think an induction is a reasonable option here.”

Julie: That’s awesome.

Jessica: “And even though there is a low success rate, we will go ahead with it if that’s what she wants.” And so, they did an ultrasound. They were guessing that the baby would be around 8 pounds. We went ahead with Pitocin. They did a low dose. It was going really well until I hit transition. I made it to 8 centimeters unmedicated and then I was begging for the epidural. But this was during COVID. I was wearing a mask and it was just me and my husband. My husband wasn’t the greatest support. He was freaking out the whole time. 

So, I got the epidural and then within two hours of the epidural, I had a really pain-free, easy pushing and birth. They did take her to the NICU for half an hour just because the membranes had been ruptured so long. They wanted the pediatrician to look her over, but she was totally healthy and only weighed 8 pounds, 9 ounces. So, not 97th percentile at all.

Meagan: Go figure. You know what? Sometimes they are spot on. Sometimes they really are. They are really close, right? But it seems like nine times out of 10-- this is my own number, they are not.

Jessica: Yeah, they are way off.

No failing in birth

Meagan: Yeah. That is so awesome. I love how you’re like, “You know, I worked through this. I was working really hard and I found the spot. I needed something different and I got that.” Because I think a lot of people that want to go unmedicated but choose an epidural, in the end, they really can beat themselves up. I loved hearing that you were like, “Yeah. I had a mask on. I was hot. I was 8 centimeters. I have been doing this for a long time, and I need an epidural, and I want an epidural, and I feel good about that.” I love that you pointed that out because it’s not-- you used this word earlier when you were like, “Or if we induced you, you would ‘fail’,” which clearly you didn’t, but that “fail” word.

We let that “fail” word creep into the birth world way too often in my opinion. Because if we don’t go unmedicated, we “fail”. If we don’t have a vaginal birth, we “failed”. If we don’t go into spontaneous labor or get induced we “failed”, you know? If we don’t breastfeed our baby, we “failed”. There are so many “fails” out there. I just want to wipe them all the way. Get the biggest bottle of Windex and wipe it all down because there’s no failing in birth. There is no failing in birth. 

If you step back and you look at what we as humans are doing, wow. It’s incredible, right? So, I love it. I love that you took charge and you’re like, “I’m going home and I will be back. I know when I need to be back and hey, these are the options,” and I’m glad that he was willing to induce and supported you in that. You deserve that completely.

Jessica: Yeah, but it definitely goes to show the luck of the draw because if it had been a different OB, it would have been a different story.

Finding supportive providers

Meagan: A totally different story. Yeah, no I agree. That is something when we talk about finding providers. I am just going to be talking about a whole bunch of random stuff, Julie.

Julie: I love it. Well, I have some stuff too. So when you are done, I will do my stuff.

Meagan: Yes, perfect. So, finding providers right? With VBAC specifically, and I encourage first-time parents to go out there and find a provider in the way that a lot of VBAC parents find a provider if that makes sense. Go out there and ask some of the questions and really from the very beginning, see what this provider’s thoughts are on Cesarean. So, when it comes down to it when you find out like Julie and I did that your provider has a 46% C-section rate--

Julie: After the fact--

Meagan: Yeah, after the fact that you could know these things before the fact and save yourself a lot of potential heartache in different ways, right? So anyway, I encourage everyone to go out there and find their provider. One of the questions that I feel is super important when you are looking for a provider is, “Will you be at my birth no matter what?” If the answer is, “No,” “Who will be at my birth? Do they have the same views as you?” Honestly, don’t hesitate to say, “I need their names. I want to meet them.” Don’t hesitate to interview them and say, “What are your thoughts on C-section?” Not, “Do you support C-section, yes or no?” “What are your thoughts?” 

Or, I mean VBAC.

Julie: You mean VBAC.

Meagan: I mean VBAC. Even as I am saying, I’m like, “Wait. On VBAC. Do you support VBAC, yes or no?” Those are just easy questions to be like, “Of course I do, yeah. We do them all the time.”

Julie: “We can do whatever type of birth you want.”

Meagan: Yeah. But like, really. “What are your thoughts on VBAC? What is your experience with VBAC?” Asking them these open-ended questions, but do not hesitate if your provider says, “You know what? It could be me, John, Jack, or Jill.”

Julie: Joe.

Meagan: Really, it could be any of these people. Don’t hesitate to interview them because like she said, it was the luck of the draw, and luckily she got the good one that was willing to work with her and support her. So, that is my little snippet on--

Julie: Meagan was painting condos all day yesterday, so she is a little tired.

Meagan: I know. I am so tired. I couldn’t even get my butt up this morning on time to get to the gym. I went to the gym, but not on time.

Julie: Oh, right. Wait, can I add something to that really fast?

Meagan: Yeah, of course.

Julie: And then I will let you go back on your snippets.

Meagan: My snip bit?

Julie: Snip bit. I had a client yesterday text me. She is going to her 36-week appointment today and at my first prenatal appointment with my clients, I always give them a list of questions to take to their provider. I actually stole Meagan‘s idea. I stole it from Meagan.

Meagan: You did? What idea?

Julie: Meagan does this too. The one where you’re just like, “Oh, ask your provider about IV access, eating and drinking during labor, induction, due dates, what to do after your water breaks, all of those questions.” I use them too now. So, she texted me and she was like, “Okay. I have my 36-week appointment tomorrow.” We are having our second prenatal tonight actually which is really fun.

But she said, “I am having my 36-week prenatal. Are there any specific questions I should ask my provider?” I’m like, “Okay. Well, if you already asked the questions that I gave you at our last visit and you have a different provider today, then ask them the same questions,” because she’s in a practice with three different providers that rotate, three different OBGYNs, which is actually really a small number, which is great because you have less chance of getting some random person you’ve never met.

But every provider differs a little bit in how they approach birth or sometimes a lot. Sometimes they differ drastically. Like clearly with Jessica‘s providers, the one was just so anti-VBAC. We’ve got a scheduled Cesarean. The other provider came in and was like, “Well, why haven’t we started inducing her yet?” Those views and opinions are so important. 

As many providers’ views you can know ahead of time going into your birth, will help you be able to navigate through those views and opinions as you navigate through your labor. You’ll be able to anticipate, “Oh, so-and-so isn’t really a fan of induction,” or “So-and-so would rather me have a VBAC,” or “So-and-so wishes I would go into labor before 41 weeks,” or whatever it ends up being. But the more providers to talk to and ask questions to, ask the same questions to all of the different providers. Just because one provider answered your question in a way that is satisfactory to you doesn’t mean another provider in the practice will. 

Then I also told her, and this is something I started telling all of my clients. Question everything. Everything they suggest or recommend, ask, “Why? Why are we doing this?” Or you can use the BRAIN acronym. “What are the benefits? What are the risks? Are there any alternative options?” And then really I only say, “What happens if we do nothing?” 

Just question everything even if you don’t think it’s a bad idea. Question, “Why are we doing it?” because that creates a really positive dialogue between you and your provider and lets your provider know that you are an educated and informed decision maker and participant in your birth. It creates trust between you and your provider. Your provider is going to learn to trust you and your ability to think critically and make decisions surrounding your circumstances. You are going to create more trust in your provider or maybe you’ll find out that you don’t trust your provider and then you’ll have to make a change there. 

And so, that was on my mind from my conversation last night with my client. She was like, “What questions do I ask?” Well, ask the same exact questions to a different provider who may be at your birth.

What’s your next snippet, Meagan?

PROM

Meagan: No, I love everything that you said. I wanted to also talk about PROM like I talked about at the beginning of the episode. Because, yeah. 48 hours before labor had started and before anyone was willing to do anything, right? So, PROM. This is something that when it happened to me, I was told it happens to 10% of people. It happened to me three times. I was like, “What? How is that even possible?”

Julie: It happened to two out of three of my spontaneous labors as well.

Meagan: Yeah, it’s so crazy. We have a study here. It says that it actually only happens in 8% of term pregnancies. It does typically start within 24 to 46 hours of water breaking. But if it doesn’t, what can we do? What are some things that we can do to maybe try and get things going while we are waiting? 

Rest. One is rest. As Jessica did, she went home. Where is the best place to rest? At home where are you are comfortable. You are in your space and you can have your bed and everything right there. So rest, rest, rest. It is so important to just rest because when labor does begin, as I am sure Jessica will contest, it is hard work.

Julie: You are going to need that energy.

Meagan: We need that energy and so, really, really rest. Now, it doesn’t mean you need to be out cold snoring, okay? Although that is great. If you can actually sleep, that is great because as you are sleeping, the oxytocin hormone is kicking in and producing. It is just so great. 

But, rest. Just rest your body. Don’t go out and feel like you have to run up the hills trying to get labor going. 

The number two suggestion would be, get that baby in a good position. Now, as we have been learning over the 2020 year and even 2019 year, we don’t have to have these babies in any specific spot. It is called balance. We need to find balance for this baby to find the right spot for them. We really always suggest to our own clients and people out there, Miles Circuit, Spinning Babies®, The Three Sisters, going in, resting on each side, doing side-lying, and things like that to really encourage baby is getting in that good position. 

Number three is, avoiding routine cervical checks and watch your temperature. As Jessica mentioned in her story when she was going to the hospital, she didn’t want to-- I’m trying to remember, Jessica, the exact words, but you didn’t want to risk the health of your baby based on infection, and meconium, and things like that for the birth that you desired. Something that we can do to watch and make sure that things are going okay and we are not getting into a risky situation is avoiding cervical exams. Now, with Jessica being at home, she was avoiding those cervical exams.

A lot of the time, now this is here in Utah, I am not sure what is very standard in other states and countries. But every two hours or so, providers or nurses will suggest a cervical exam because they want to see what progress is being made in those two hours. Sometimes it is a, “I will just listen to your body and see what is going on, and then we will check and see if anything dramatic changes,” but a lot of the times, especially when we are waiting to see what is going on, if labor is going to really be going, and what we are wanting to do, they will encourage it every couple of hours. Avoiding that is the best we can do because we don’t need unnecessary bacteria going into our vaginas, right?

Jessica: That is the one thing they did well. They didn’t do a cervical check until we went for the scheduled C-section. So, even at the NST the day before, it was completely hands-off. Yeah, they really waited until we knew that the baby was going to be coming within a reasonable timeframe before anybody did anything to increase the risk of infection.

Meagan: So great.

Julie: That’s really awesome.

Meagan: Yeah. That’s really, really great. It’s okay to say, “I don’t want my cervix checked right now. I’m not feeling anything different or nothing has really changed to the point where I feel that it warrants a cervical exam.”

Also, watching your temperature. So, especially if you’re going to labor at home, it’s a good idea if your water breaks to just check your temperature and be mindful of how you’re feeling. We say this because if bacteria starts growing and an infection begins, it is common to get a fever. That is our body‘s natural reaction to fight against infection. Sometimes we can get fevers even in labor because we are laboring really, really hard so our body temperature can go up, but a lot of the times we can get a fever with an infection or the baby’s heart rate can get really high.

Julie: A fever can also be a side effect of an epidural. It can be a side effect of an epidural and not be a sign of an infection at all if you do have an epidural. So, that is something to remember.

Meagan: Yes, it is. Exactly. Yeah, something to remember. Another sign that infection could be present is the baby’s heart rate is actually high. So, anyway. Taking your temperature and being mindful of how you’re feeling. If you’re feeling great and then all of a sudden you’re feeling really awful like you’re getting the flu, and you have a fever, and you are at home, it may be a good idea to go into wherever you are going. Unless you’re at home, then you would discuss this with your provider. But, go to the hospital or your birthing location and further assess and see what next steps need to be taken.

Those are three ideas that you can do when your water breaks to try and help things get going. And obviously, activity and things like that, will all help as well. Pumping, but those are some of our three tops.

Julie: I mean, I think I wrote that blog.

Meagan: You did write that blog.

Julie: I think it might be due for a rewrite because I think it needs to be updated. I was reading through it earlier and I was like, “Well, I write a little differently now.” Did you notice that, Meagan?

Meagan: Yes. You guys, we have so many blogs. If you haven’t checked out our blogs, check it out. It’s at vbaclink.com/blog. We have tons of blogs. Yes, we are rewriting blogs. We are writing new blogs. So, give it a look. I mean, seriously. We have them on almost all of the main topics and even then some.

Same start, different outcomes

Julie: I want to make note that Jessica’s Cesarean birth and her VBAC birth were both induced births. They both started out in a similar way and she still had very different outcomes. A lot of times we, when we are preparing for VBAC, are hung up on mental hurdles, and whenever we get past the point of where a Cesarean happened, we can finally mentally release that, right? 

I dilated to a 4 before my Cesarean and so, once I was in active labor, I was riding high. I’m like, “This is great. I am totally going to do this.” I see that with a lot of my clients. Sometimes they get to 10 and pushing before they have their Cesarean, but sometimes they weren’t even given a fair chance at all.

When labor starts all the same-- like Meagan, I remember with your third birth, your VBAC after two C-sections baby, your water broke before labor started again, for the third time. I remember you saying how frustrated you were that you felt like it was all happening again.

Meagan: Yeah. I was throwing a fit in the driveway, like throwing my arms up in the air, stomping. My neighbor was out and just looking at me. My husband was just like, “Just let her. Just let her.”

But, yeah. Well, it was just hard and that’s fine. I had a couple of contractions before, but really nothing. My water broke. I was just like, “Why does it have to happen like this again? Why can’t I just go into labor before this happens?” And just throwing a fit. But, you know, it was great.

Julie: It ended up great and you got your vaginal birth. And Jessica, you got your VBAC after your Cesarean. I just want to say that just because your birth starts out similarly to your Cesarean birth does not mean it is going to end the same way. Sometimes we get hung up on that and mental blocks can hang up labor. 

So, do your best as you prepare, going into your birth and your VBAC journey, that you are ready to accept all different ways for labor to start whether it’s induced, whether it’s natural, whether you plan on going unmedicated but end up deciding to get the epidural because that’s the best choice for you and your baby. Be prepared for your birth to take a number of different journeys because the more journeys you can imagine and prepare for, the less likely you are to be caught off guard if those things happen during your birth.

Jessica: I had the same meltdown when my water broke. I was crying holding my toddler, complaining about how this could happen twice.

Meagan: Yes. It was so frustrating. I think that is something that maybe we needed to get out. Maybe we needed to just get all of that emotion out for us to take the next step and the next direction. Even though that wasn’t contractions really going right away, it was a release that needed to happen so when they did start, they could start.

Julie: I think you make a really good point too. I am remembering something that I read a while ago. I used to have all my clients do a fear release or something like that if I felt like they were hung up on emotions. But now, I am finding myself more telling them to just do something that makes them cry. Just anything. 

Watch The Notebook at the end. My husband laughs at the end of The Notebook, but I am crying every time. Watch your wedding video or birth video. Read a letter that your partner wrote you years ago or something. Anything else to cry, because once those tears start flowing, your body releases whatever emotions it is holding onto through your tears. 

And so, who knows? Maybe you guys throwing fits and screaming and getting angry and upset and frustrated about that let your body release what it needed to in order for your labors and your birth to turn out the way they did. Who knows?

Meagan: Yeah, exactly.

Q&A

Julie: Okay, but Jessica. I’m going to ask you these questions now. I want to read the answer that you read for the first one, but you can say whatever you want for the second one.

The first one is, what is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish you would have known ahead of time when preparing for birth?

I absolutely loved how you worded this, so I’m just going to read it word for word.

You said, “This is a hard one. I wish I would have known the statistics about complications that arise in birth as a first-time mom and what a doula was. Now that I am in the birth world, everything feels like common sense. But as a young mom, I didn’t even know what Pitocin induction was or that an emergency C-section could happen to anyone.” 

I love that because I feel like all of us first-time moms can echo that sentiment of your message. Now that you are in the birth world and you are starting to become a doula and all those things, it feels like common sense, because it really does. Even sometimes when I’m working with clients or especially first-time moms, I have to remind myself that they don’t know what they don’t know. Going into birth as a first-time mom is just a whole different ball game. But, I really loved how you worded that. So, thank you for that.

Now the second question is, what is your best tip for someone preparing for a VBAC?

Jessica: I think finding the information to be able to make informed decisions or finding a doula or knowledgeable person who can help you make those informed decisions because you would hope that providers act in your best interest, but I know in my birth cases they were telling me-- I had to pull up the documents and show them themselves when they said, “Oh, we don’t induce VBACs,” and I was like, “This is supported right in your policy here.”

So, it would be helpful if I didn’t do all that work myself to have somebody who was knowledgeable, like a doula, to be there to provide the information and the knowledge needed to make empowered and informed decisions.

Meagan: Oh, so many good messages in this. Thank you so much Jessica again for sharing your story and for being with us today.

Jessica: Thank you for having me.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

They invested so much of their time, energy, money, and hearts into their VBAC preparation. They craved immediate skin-to-skin, fought for their rights, and advocated for themselves. They labored hard, sacrificed for their babies, and felt the heartbreak that comes from an unplanned repeat Cesarean. They found healing, and they found each other.

Now, these 7 Women of Strength want to share it all with you. 

How does it feel to have a CBAC?

We invite you to sit in this space with us and find out. 

Additional links

Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program

CBAC Support - The VBAC Link Community Facebook Group

Episode sponsor

This episode is sponsored by our very own Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program. It is the most comprehensive VBAC doula training in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced video course. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more information and sign up today.

Sponsorship inquiries

Are you interested in sponsoring The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Meagan: Alright, alright. Hello, everybody. This is The VBAC Link, and you are with myself, Meagan, and Julie. We have a special treat. You are with a whole bunch of other people today, and we are so excited that you are going to be able to hear from all of them. This episode is going to be powerful. It’s going to be emotional. It might be something that fuels fire and something that you totally relate to. 

I want to start the episode off by encouraging you to have an open mind and an open heart as you’re listening to these people’s stories. We are going to be talking about CBAC today. If you didn’t know, I had a CBAC. I wanted a VBAC with my second, and it ended up in a Cesarean. In so many ways, I feel like I can relate to all of these people. I can’t wait to hear their personal journeys, and feelings, and stories. 

We do have a special message. We are going to skip over our review of the week, and Julie is going to go over the differences between CBAC, VBAC, and scheduled C-section. Is that what you said?

Julie: You got it.

Meagan: Yes. Alright. So, we are going to get into that, and then we will get into these awesome stories. 

Episode sponsor

Julie: Birth workers, listen up. Do you want to increase your knowledge of birth after a Cesarean? We created our Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program just for you. It is the most comprehensive VBAC doula training in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced video course. This course is designed for birth workers who want to take their VBAC education to the next level so you can support parents who have had a Cesarean in the most effective ways. We have created a complete system, a step-by-step road map that shows exactly what you need to know in order to support parents birthing after a Cesarean. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more information and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there.

Defining VBAC, CBAC, RCS, and ERCS

Julie: Alright. I just cannot tell you how much I love this group of women that are in this conference right now. I am looking at our little recording screen. Everyone has different colored circles with their first initials in it, and it warms my heart because today-- I am going to share a little bit. Not too many personal details, but we had a Facebook group for all the people that were sharing their stories today just to relay information and make sure everyone is on the same page. So, I filled everyone in earlier this afternoon on the details, and I left to go about doing all my other things.

But when I came back to Facebook Messenger, there were dozens and dozens of messages from these moms talking about what they were going to say on the show, and how their feelings are, and getting really vulnerable with each other, and honestly creating some of the strongest connections. I could literally feel the connections growing and strengthening just in the Facebook conversation. It was so-- I don’t even know the right word.

Meagan: Powerful. It was really cool.

Julie: So endearing. Yes, powerful. I love it. And so, I am looking forward to this episode. These are all moms who attempted a vaginal birth after a Cesarean but ended up with a C-section rather than a VBAC. Before we get into the stories, I want to go over some terminology because the acronyms are pretty nuts, right? You have VBAC, HBAC, CBAC, RCS, VBA2C, HBA2C, and sometimes it can be really confusing.

Generally, VBAC is obviously vaginal birth after cesarean. RCS or ERCS refers to parents who choose to schedule a repeat Cesarean whether they want to have a Cesarean or whether it’s because of medical reasons. They may not want to do it, but they feel like it’s the best thing for them. And then CBAC stands for Cesarean birth after Cesarean, which is defined as parents who attempted a trial of labor, or labored after a Cesarean and ended up with a repeat Cesarean.

We want to go through and identify the unique challenges that these parents face and the different struggles and emotions that they go through, and maybe bring some things up that you might not have considered as you prepare for your own VBAC. We encourage you to listen-- birth worker, parent, anybody, stay tuned because there is going to be some really, really good information here from some really, really strong and powerful women.

Paige

Alright. I made Paige go first. Paige transcribes our podcast, so we can read them now.

Meagan: Yay.

Julie: Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also read them too, and she is going to be transcribing this one. We absolutely love Paige. Paige was a member of our VBAC Link Community. Well, she still is. But, she suggested that we create a CBAC group just for parents who were in the community that ended up with a repeat Cesarean so that they could have some support and like-minded people.

Paige is the founder of our CBAC community as well. We are so grateful for her for everything that she does. We are just going to talk about Cesarean and ask questions. Alright. So, Paige.

What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general?

Paige: I would say that first off, it wasn’t our fault. The reality is that some birth outcomes are just the luck of the draw in spite of the best prep. I can only speak for myself, but I know that I did everything under the sun and more to set myself up for a successful VBAC after two C-sections. I was going for my second VBAC attempt this time around. This was in June of last year.

Some Cesareans truly are necessary. There’s a trend right now in the birth world to avoid a C-section at all costs, and it can feel really painful to moms that did everything to do just that but didn’t get it. So, it sounds really simple, but sometimes we need a reminder that Cesareans truly can be necessary.

Meagan: That’s so true and not only necessary but a positive experience too, right? They don’t have to be scary and negative. Okay, so question number two is:

What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or had to work through post-birth?

Paige: I narrowed it down to two, actually, which are confusion and embarrassment. I was mostly so confused how my intuition told me so strongly this would happen for me, and then it didn’t. Literally, I woke up from general anesthesia after my second birth, so my first CBAC, and I was so empowered from the labor experience. My first words were, “Can I do that again? I want to try that again”. From that moment on, that’s when I started preparing for my VBAC after two C-sections.

I felt so good after every prenatal once I got pregnant. Every chiropractic appointment, every pelvic floor, I knew that I was on the right path. I had every reason to be confident it was going to happen. So now, learning to trust that those feelings were real, the journey with something that I needed in spite of the outcome and that my intuition didn’t lead me astray is something that I am still working on.

And then, that level of embarrassment. One of the main reasons I was going for a VBAC was because I wanted to be a champion of VBAC. I wanted to be a walking example of empowered birth. With my first pregnancy and birth, I was so afraid of birth in general. I literally did not think I would survive. So, I wanted to be the success story of going from complete fear to complete confidence and then showing women that this was what we were made to do. I feel like I still came a long way in how confident I was, and how much I have grown, and how strong I am now. 

But now, with my outcome, it’s tempting to feel like my story makes people afraid to go for a VBAC instead of feeling inspired to do it. But, I still believe in VBAC. I am still so passionate about it. I love it, and I will always long for one.

Julie: Yeah. That is some really real stuff. I think it is really important. I think we will probably talk a lot about this during the episode where people get told, “Oh, at least you have a healthy baby,” or, “Aren’t you so grateful for your Cesarean? It saved your life.” 

I think it’s really important to recognize that there are so many emotions surrounding this, but also-- also, we are grateful that we have a happy, healthy baby and mom. Sometimes, people don’t consider that mental health comes into play when we talk about the health of baby and mom. Sometimes babies aren’t healthy, and sometimes moms aren’t healthy. I’m glad you talked about that. Thanks. The next thing: 

What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your story, or have you even gotten to that point yet?

Paige: Julie, you touched on this a little bit, but The VBAC Link CBAC Support Group has been the highlight and the greatest source of healing for me, honestly, this time around. I have found women that I know needed to come into my life during this time, and a few of them are on the episode today. It’s so fun to be able to talk to them and see them on here. I just love you all, and I am so grateful for each of you.

Especially during COVID, when it’s very isolating, it’s a very difficult time to be going through postpartum. These women helped me feel like I had a tribe like I was seen and understood. This group-- it wasn’t me. It was a joint effort. Julie and Meagan, you don’t know that. But, I was messaging some other women personally, and we talked about how we felt forgotten. We talked about how we wanted to have a space. I still personally message some of these women just to check in on how they’re doing. It meant everything to me to have these women checking in on me during some really dark and lonely days right after my birth because they were going through it too. And I typically stay away from sharing too much on social media, but this CBAC group is such a safe place.

It was also really healing to know that you, Julie and Meagan, were both so supportive of creating this group because throughout my pregnancy, you two were some of my biggest mentors. When I got my CBAC, there was this feeling of, “I let them down,” which I know is not true, and obviously, you had no idea who I even was, but seeing the way that you are champions of not just VBAC, but empowered birth and CBAC included in that, just means everything.

Meagan: Aw, thank you.

Julie: Aw, well, we are so grateful for you. Honestly, when you brought up the group, I texted it to Meagan and our admin, Sarah, and I am like, “Why have we not done that yet?”

Meagan: Yeah.

Julie: it was an instant “yes” from everybody. We created it, I think, the exact same day. We are really excited to have a space for you because I don’t even understand what you are going through. I know I have seen it with my clients. I obviously hear stories and we see your conversations in the group, but Meagan can relate a little bit more because she had a second Cesarean after trying for VBAC. But, being able to just be a silent lurker, not to sound creepy or anything, in the group really helps me understand better where CBAC moms are coming from. It helps me understand a little bit better how to approach them. 

And so, I just want to thank everybody, not only on this call but in the group for being there and being in that space. It really is such a supportive space, so thanks.

Paige: Yeah.

Meagan: Yeah, when I didn’t get my VBAC, I was in the group that caused me a lot of issues emotionally at the time

Julie: A different group, not our group.

Meagan: Not our group, but a different group back in the day. I mean, it’s still around. But, I remember posting in there that I did not get my VBAC and I remember pretty much in a way being told, “I told you so. Why were you so stupid for trying in the first place?” And so, when you said, “We want a place for us. We feel like there’s no place for us,” I remember leaving every VBAC group. Every single one, and unsubscribing to everything VBAC because I couldn’t be in that space. I couldn’t hear it. I couldn’t be there. I was sick of the, “I told you so‘s.”

Like Julie said, when this was proposed, it was a no-brainer and a, “Where the heck have we been?” type of a thing. A moment of-- why didn’t we even think of this? So, so, so grateful for you. Last but not least, I know we have got lots of amazing people to share. 

Is there anything else that you would like to share or that you feel like people need to know?

Paige: I just want to reiterate how strong these women are, how resilient they are. Not by choice, but because they have to be. There is an extra level of courage and deeper strength that we have to tap into to not get the birth outcome that you want not only once, but often multiple times in some cases.

But for women who are prepping for their VBAC right now, I want to advise you to not be afraid, especially listening to this episode. We don’t want you to be afraid of a CBAC or a VBAC in general. I want to say, fight for it. Invest your heart in it. Go 100% all-in if that’s what your tuition is telling you to do. Follow that because the chances really are that you will get it. The odds are literally in your favor.

And if you don’t get it, if the doctors label you a “failed TOLAC”, we are here. Now that this group is made, we are here for you. We will hold the space for you. We will catch you and you are never a failure to us. You will be okay. You might not feel it and it might take some time, but I promise that you will be okay.

Julie: Me and Meagan are over here texting each other about how much we love you.

Paige: Oh my gosh. I love you guys. It’s mutual, very much so.

Julie: Before we go on to our next person, who is Kristian, I want to touch on something that I actually forgot to mention at the beginning.

Most of preparing for birth is getting educated, having the right provider, having the right support team, knowing all your options, etc., etc., etc. But there is a part of it that is just pure, freaking luck. I have seen it myself with my own clients. Sometimes you can do everything and you can work so hard, and you just get dealt a really rough hand and end up in a repeat Cesarean. 

But I have also seen clients who-- how do I say this? They don’t work as hard or care as much into putting the effort in, and they get lucky and they have their VBAC. Sometimes that is a really hard thing to process, even as a doula. Even as a doula, I sometimes have a really hard time processing, “Why did this birth go that way but that birth went this way?”

I know I have talked to Meagan about this several times and I know some of you are going to talk about this, but it’s really hard when you have worked so hard and get dealt a bad hand, and get that bad luck on your side. I think that what Paige touched on is exactly important, is that sometimes it’s just bad luck. That’s all it is. There is no one to blame and it’s nobody’s fault. It’s just bad luck.

Alright, next up, Kristian.

Kristian

Meagan: Kristian!

Kristian: Hi, guys.

Julie: Hi, Kristian.

Meagan: Hello, hello.

Julie: Alright, Meagan, why don’t you start? We can alternate so that we don’t keep asking the same questions.

Meagan: Well, the questions are kind of the same.

Julie: But no, I mean you ask one and three this time. I’ll ask two and four. Change it up.

Meagan: Gotcha, perfect. Okay. 

What is something that you wish people would know about your CBAC and CBAC in general?

Kristian: Paige touched on it a little bit and you both have touched on it, but I think you can do everything “right”, I use that in quotes, and still end up with a CBAC. I never thought I would have one Cesarean birth, much less two. I literally planned my VBAC in the hospital with my oldest. Both of my babies were footling breech and both times I went into labor the night before my scheduled ECV.

In both scenarios, I thought I had done everything right to have the birth outcome that I had hoped for. But yeah, that luck was not on my side either time.

Julie: I agree. I think that's a really important thing to note. Okay. 

What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through now or had to work through after your birth? 

Sorry, I am just going to go off on a little, teeny tangent. I think that processing a birth is an ongoing process, but where are you at in your journey right now? What is the hardest thing you are working through or had to work through?

Kristian: Yeah. I think the biggest emotion I have had and I’m still processing is just the frustration of that I spent so much time, energy, money trying to get my son in the right position. Even before I knew he was breech, I thought I was hopefully going to prevent him from ever being breech like my daughter. Ultimately, even after doing all of those things, I ended up with the same results. 

And so, unlike my first birth, I don’t have the “what if‘s” of like, “What if I had tried X, Y, or Z?” But I have the frustration of, I tried all of those things. For me, they didn’t work. And so, that I am still working on. I think if I hear one more person tell me about Spinning Babies®, or chiropractic, or any number of things that I tried, I might just scream at them. Everyone is trying to be so helpful and thoughtful, but when you have tried all of those things, and you’ve done all the things that people do to get a VBAC, and it doesn’t end up being that, hearing them one more time is just too much. So, still working through that frustration piece.

Julie: It’s definitely understandable. That’s a really hard thing to go through because like you said, even though you know people are well-intentioned, it’s still like, “Yes. Yes, I did that.” 

I had that with my breastfeeding journey. Breastfeeding never works for me, ever. All four times and despite all of my-- I tried all the things, literally. I think I can relate to your sentiment when if I hear anyone say, “Did you ever try fenugreek?” I would like, “Alright, let me just punch you in the face right now.” Anyways, I can relate to that.

Alright, Meagan, you are up.

Meagan: What is something positive or uplifting that you have found in your story, or nothing if you have not gotten to that point, and is there anything you’d like to share on that?

Kristian: Even though the physical aspects of my labor and birth were almost identical, like both times footling breech baby, both times going into labor the night before my scheduled ECV, how quickly my labors progressed, and then ultimately having a C-section. Even though the physical aspect of it was so similar each time, the fact that I had a different provider the second time, and that provider was truly amazing, it was such a healing experience that I never thought was possible with a CBAC. 

If you would have told me when I got pregnant with my son that I would have a CBAC and I’d feel okay about it because of my provider, I don’t think I would have believed you. I know I wouldn’t have believed you. 

In my first birth, I felt really unsupported, sort of like I was that unwanted statistic of a C-section because I was with midwives that deliver at a birth center. With my second provider, he was there the whole time. I think he was as disappointed as I was that I needed to have a C-section. I also knew that if it came to that and I had to have a C-section, it wasn’t for any other reason than that it was medically necessary and he gave me the best shot. He did an ECV while I was in labor. He let me labor as long as possible to see if the baby would flip and he would have delivered a breech baby if my son had been frank breech. 

So, all of those things I just felt really, really supported. Afterwards, he was there. He was there to explain what happened, and to talk it through with me, and spend the time, and tell me right away that I could try to have a VBAC if and when I have another baby. The physical aspect was the same, but the mental aspect was so different.

Julie: I think that’s important to understand. Meagan, do you want to add anything about your second Cesarean or do we want to just go on?

Meagan: For the sake of time and everybody else’s story, we’ll just go on.

Julie: Okay, cool. Alright, Kristian. 

Is there anything else you want to people to know about your birth specifically or cesarean birth after cesarean in general?

Kristian: Both things have been touched on already. The CBAC Link has been such an amazing community to join. Like Paige, I am not really a social media poster. I don’t really typically do that, but the group has been such an amazing place to process that. So I would say to listeners, if you have had a CBAC or if ultimately you end up in that situation, the community is here and it’s an amazing community to lift you up.

And then I think for people out there that are trying to support CBAC women, I would say just to listen and not add the added advice. I had a lactation consultant after my son was born that said, “Oh, I wish you lived in Canada because you would have had two vaginal births because they don’t do C-sections for breech babies.”

Julie: Whoa. Whoa.

Kristian: First, I don’t live in Canada and I don’t think that that’s necessarily true. So, I would just say, whether it is true or not, it is not helpful in the situation. Just let the CBAC mama have her story and not add to it.

Julie: Thank you. Thank you so much for that. I think that’s really important.

Marie

Julie: Okay, let’s see. Next up is Marie. Alright, Marie.

Marie: Hi there.

Julie: Welcome. Marie just moved away from us which makes me sad, but that’s okay. Marie, we still love you. 

What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general?

Marie: I would say more often than not that we would love to share if you asked. I just wanted to give a little context to share about my CBAC because my CBAC was very traumatic for me. Paige touched on this, but it was necessary because it saved my son and that was part of that trauma. 

I had labored naturally because my body doesn’t respond really well from epidurals. That’s what I found out with my first one. Anyway, I labor naturally for 18 hours and then I eventually had to have an epidural placed because right before my transition phase was exceptionally painful and I felt everything. My son was having heart decelerations in between contractions. Then, they were happening so frequently that we realized we just had to get him out as soon as possible.

Again, my body wasn’t responding to the epidural, so I felt a good deal of my surgery and I couldn’t help but be very vocal. Eventually, when they got him out he wasn’t crying, so I had that mentality going on as well. Our son was okay, but he was diagnosed with hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy which is brain damage caused by lack of oxygen. He was driven to Primary’s and put on a cooling pad for four days to slow down his brain activity to try and let it heal optimally. 

The following week, he had tests for his heart and brain until finally, they let us know he had miraculous results and overall his brain damage was little to none. So, while my CBAC was traumatic, it saved my son. C-sections really are a blessing sometimes. I would want people to know that C-sections are really, really amazing. My first one felt unnecessary because it was failure to progress, so I was left feeling really empowered to get a vaginal birth the second time, but the second time I really needed that C-section.

Julie: Absolutely.

Meagan: She really has experienced the two opposite ends of like, “Oh, maybe not” and, “Okay, totally necessary.” 

What is one of the biggest emotions that you are working through or did work through?

Marie: I would say it’s a mixture of both because I feel like I have worked through it, but then every once in a while it pops up. I would say that’s bitterness. My bitterness comes from skin-to-skin. I had looked forward-- my cousin once told me the most magical feeling in the whole world is having that skin-to-skin right after you deliver your baby. I just could not wait to experience that. 

With my daughter, during my first C-section, I didn’t get a hold her for a couple of hours, and then with the second one, as I was preparing for this VBAC, I accepted the small possibility of having a repeat Cesarean because all I really wanted was to be awake and lucid, which I wasn’t with my first, and to get to hold him skin-to-skin immediately after his birth.

So, during his Cesarean, not only did I not get a gentle Cesarean, but I didn’t get to hear him, hold him, or behold his face for four days. When I first held him four days later, I was a ball of emotions trying so hard to just savor the moment, and holding his hand that was all bruised by all the needles, and looking at his face, and his oxygen mask.

I went to bed that night feeling like we had both been cheated out of that moment between mother and son. I was fighting resentment that I had, but I soon discovered that lots of NICU parents feel the complex, dual emotions of being both angry and grateful. As time has passed, I would say that the bitterness is mostly gone. It still pops up from time to time that I didn’t get to be with him the first two weeks of his life, but overall now, I’m left feeling more gratitude than anything.

Meagan: Yeah. And during all of that time, I just have to congratulate you on how amazingly strong you were because I can’t even imagine how hard that was. But you were a rock.

Marie: Well, you are one of my doulas, so you definitely knew that.

Meagan: I know you are a rock, yes. Okay Julie, do you have the other question?

Julie: Alright, Marie. 

What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your journey or have you not really gotten to that point yet?

Marie: It’s an astute question because the word “positive” is used. It’s difficult to find joyful, memorable moments when your goals or expectations are not met. So, what you’re left doing is finding gratitude, validation, and positivity in your CBAC story. But first and foremost, I am forever deeply grateful for the miracle of my son. Looking back, I am so grateful I had a provider who helped me go into labor on my own and that I fought for that too, because he did introduce induction options. I really fought for going into labor on my own because I didn’t with my first.

I feel validated that I did everything I could to get a natural, vaginal birth. There’s a lot of things I have found. There’s a lot of positive things I found in my story, you know. I found a family among NICU parents and the CBAC Facebook group. I learned that there are better experiences and there are sacred experiences. It all comes down to what your story is, what your experience is. It belongs to you and it is special to you. It’s nobody else’s. So I guess, there you go.

Julie: No, I love that. I think you answered that perfectly. Maybe I worded the whole question wrong for everybody. Everybody else, you are free to interpret question number three however you would like.

Marie: No, it was great. No, you hit it on the head.

Julie: I love it. I love everything you said.

Meagan: Is there anything that you would like to add?

Marie: I would want people to know, throughout The VBAC Link Podcast, we have been uplifted and inspired by so many women, including wonderful Meagan, who had successful vaginal births after multiple Cesareans and a very high success rate. It’s a great goal.

I don’t have any regrets trying for a VBAC. I would do it all over again. But anyways, I would want people to know that there are some CBAC women who might end up choosing or needing to do an elective Cesarean for any subsequent pregnancies. With that being said, I would want people to know, especially coming from a strong VBAC mentality, it’s a very scary and difficult decision to come to. It’s something that I am having to face right now because I do want more kids, but having the VBAC and the Cesarean were both scary. I am really having to juggle with what I’m going to do next. But if I end up wanting to do an elective Cesarean, or if I need to do one, then I would want my VBAC community, my VBAC sisters, to be supportive of me and excited for me and be excited that I am doing elective Cesarean. I would hope that I would have support from that.

Meagan: You deserve that, yeah. You deserve that support.

Julie: Yeah, I agree.

Marie: Thanks.

Julie: Well, thank you, Marie. Next up, we have Anne.

Anne

Meagan: Yes. Anne, we have: 

What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC?

Anne: You guys, first off, can I just say that I am really fangirling here because I have listened to The VBAC Link, oh my goodness, for as long as I can-- from the get-go, probably.

Julie: Thank you so much.

Anne: You guys have been there through my first VBAC. I did have a C-section, then a VBAC, and then I got pregnant with twins. That put a rudder in everything. I was going for a 2VBAC, which is difficult in itself with twins. So, I guess that’s one thing I would like to touch on which is different in my story is that with multiples. A vaginal birth is already hard enough to get supportive providers for, but with the twins, it was even harder. I really had to fight tooth and nail to even get the chance to try for my VBAC.

For me, it was about facing fear head-on whether you are trying for a VBAC or having that CBAC which I ended up with ultimately. I want people to know that it’s never an easy choice whether you decide to get it or whether it’s an emergency in the end. Having that C-section is not the easy way out like other people can see. That’s what I can say on that.

Julie: Absolutely. I agree with you 100% because sometimes you have to choose. Sometimes choosing a repeat Cesarean is just as difficult as going through labor and ending up with a CBAC. So, no. I agree 100%.

Anne: Yeah and definitely. I did the TOLAC and everything. We got to that 7 centimeters and we elected to have the CBAC. I cried my heart out. It’s never an easy choice.

Julie: Yeah, it never is. Never, along the way. For sure. Alright. 

What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or had to work through post-birth?

Anne: I would say mine would be shame, I guess. I don’t know if anybody else feels this way, but I love telling my birth story because it has so many cool and different things that happened along the way. We were induced with a Foley bulb and the labor was just like-- oh my gosh, it was textbook. Like, beautiful labor. I didn’t even feel my contractions before I got the epidural. It was a good experience.

But then, when I get to the point where I have to tell people that we stalled out at 7 centimeters and we decided to get a C-section, you just see peoples’ faces turn a little bit. I am still processing that. Not feeling ashamed and being proud of how hard I fought, and how wonderful it was anyways.

Julie: Yeah, I think that’s really important. I am glad you brought that up. I think that’s a really hard thing to work through.

Meagan: Absolutely. Okay, next question. 

What is something positive or uplifting that you found in your story?

Anne: Well, it’s like I said, I did have a really good labor to begin with and I felt supported in all my choices. That was something really positive for me because, with my first, which ended up in a C-section, I didn’t feel that support at all. It was healing in that way. I am just happy overall that I got to have that experience and got to give my babies those labor hormones. That was my ultimate goal to have them receive that and go from there. I’m happy overall that I got my number one goal.

Julie: Yeah, that’s awesome. Alright. 

Is there anything else you want to add or that you wish people would know?

Anne: Even if a CBAC wasn’t your first choice-- heck, which obviously if we are going for a VBAC, it probably wasn’t, that having that supportive provider is just as important as having a supportive provider with your VBAC. I feel like my provider definitely made the whole difference for my recovery and how I feel about my whole experience because when push came to shove, and we decided to have the C-section, and I cried, she was there for me. Whatever I asked, she made sure that we would try and get whatever possible to make me feel comfortable.

I asked her to go through everything she was doing, to narrate as she was doing it. She said it was an odd request, but she did do it. So, just being heard from a provider and having that support is just-- it is so important. When you’re looking for a provider, not just thinking about how they will support you through a VBAC, but also trying to figure out if they are going to be there if plans don’t go as you planned.

Julie: I really love that thought. I think that’s really important. I honestly don’t think I ever thought about it in that perspective before. So, thank you for sharing that.

Joleen

Julie: Okay, next up we have Joleen.

Joleen: Hi there.

Julie: Hi Joleen. How are you?

Joleen: Doing well.

Julie: So good. I am so good just to be surrounded and listening to you ladies. I am smiling the whole way through this. I just love it. Okay, question number one. 

What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general?

Joleen: So, a quick briefing. I had my CBAC in October 2020 following a spontaneous 33-hour labor. My water ruptured naturally at home at 38 weeks and 4 days. I never dilated past 1 centimeter and baby never descended past -2 station even with five hours of a Pitocin induction during that. A hospital birth, so I had no food and pretty much no sleep. So, I did have my CBAC called failure to progress, but it was my choice because of the exhaustion.

Overall, I think as a CBAC parent that we all had this goal set and probably had small goals in between and we had to reach those goals. We researched and we prepared and we advocated. We did “all of the things” and in the end, no matter what our outcome was, we all have our experiences and our stories. However we feel about these experiences, I just want people to know that our feelings are valid.

It’s okay if you need to mourn your birth experience. It’s okay to love your birth experience too. We just have to find a healthy output for those things.

Meagan: Absolutely. And it’s okay to take as much time as you need to mourn that birth experience. Question number two is: 

What is one of the biggest emotions that you are working through or have already worked through?

Joleen: I would say, being recently postpartum from my CBAC, when I have time to think back at my whole journey, it’s not really an emotion, it’s more of a gnawing, “What if?”

I originally wanted a home birth. I wanted the twinkle lights and the affirmations, the HypnoBirthing and the birth tub. I had a hospital birth. I constantly ask myself, “What if I stayed home longer? What if I hadn’t gotten the epidural? What if I had the doula that I wanted?” That’s really the one thing that weighs on me. I think a doula would have changed my outcome. “What if I had gone a few more hours before agreeing to have a surgery?” It gnaws and it eats at me.

I will share a quick story. Before they took me back to the OR, I turned to my boyfriend and I said, “Do you remember how I was after our first daughter?” Her name is Elowen. He said, “Yeah.” I said, “You need to prepare for me to be like that again.” He was like, “I know.” I said, “I don’t know how I’m going to be after this. I might be struggling. I just want you to know that. I want you to prepare for that if you have to help me through this.”

They took me back to the OR and as they were taking baby out, I had heard my midwife’s voice. I had no idea that she was the attending midwife during my surgery. She said, “You know, I told you that she was going to try to come on my birthday.” I just felt so calm in that moment. I said, “Heather, is that you?” She said, “Yeah, it’s me.” Immediately, the first thing that came out of my mouth was, “Heather, I didn’t get my VBAC.” And I cried. I was bawling. I could feel her emotion behind that blue veil. She said, “I know, hon. I am so sorry.” That was the first time I realized that I didn’t get my VBAC and it really sunk in.

Meagan: It’s crazy how that can happen and you are like, “Wow. Alright. And here we go. That just sunk in right there and I am processing this now.”

Julie: Yeah. Honestly, I am so invested in this story, I don’t even know what question we are on anymore.

Meagan: I think three. What is something positive or uplifting?

Julie: Yeah. 

Have you found something uplifting or positive in your journey? 

If not, that’s okay too.

Joleen: Yeah, so a positive thing that I took out of my whole experience and my whole journey was that I found this strength that I never knew that I had. I so often hear the phrase, “Use your voice even if it shakes.” I learned to advocate for myself and thankfully I had two wonderful providers, and OB and a Certified Nurse-Midwife who gave me no pushback. They supported me the entire way from the get-go.

Meagan: Okay.

Is there anything you would like anyone to know about CBAC?

Joleen: Yeah, so it’s like the other ladies have mentioned-- you can prepare all you want. It’s going to be the luck of the draw. That’s even what OB had told me at my two-week postpartum visit. I asked, “Was there anything physically wrong with me inside? Anything wrong with my pelvis?” He said, “You know, it was just the luck of the draw. I have no idea why things went the way they went.” 

You can eat all the dates you want. You can go to the pelvic floor therapist. You can go to the chiropractor every single week. You can bounce on your ball. You can walk. You can take the red raspberry leaf. You know, it’s not going to give you the outcome that you want. You’re not always going to get that outcome.

Meagan: It doesn’t always happen, yeah.

Joleen: Yeah, you have to accept it.

Meagan: Mhmm.

Joleen: It is a hard pill to swallow, too, if it doesn’t happen the way you want it to. But just know that you are not alone in your struggles.

Julie: Absolutely. I think that’s really important. You’re not alone in your struggles. I actually was taking notes while you were talking because I want to make some social media posts from some things you said. Actually, all of you guys, I have been taking notes. But, I think that’s really important to know.

Okay, well thank you so much, Joleen, for sharing your story with us. You’re right, I want to chat with everybody so long. But Meagan is like, “Come on. We have got to get back on track.” Okay, okay, okay.

Meagan: I want to make sure everyone gets their time.

Brett

Julie: Alright. Next is Brett.

Brett: Hey.

Julie: Hi Brett. I am so glad you’re with us. You are one of the people whose names I am familiar within the community. Now I’m familiar with all of your names, but Brett, I think I just remembered you from--

Brett: I think I was there from the beginning. I was one of the first people.

Julie: Yeah, I love it. Let’s get right into it. 

What is something you wish people would know about your CBAC or CBAC in general?

Brett: I think one of the hardest things for me to deal with after my CBAC was everyone saying, “Well, at least you have a healthy baby,” because yes, I have a healthy baby and that’s amazing. I am thrilled he’s okay and I don’t have to worry about him, but “at least you have a healthy baby” can be absolutely true, but it can also be very unhelpful to women who are going through birth trauma and the pain of losing the birth experience that we fought so hard for.

Meagan: Absolutely.

Julie: Yeah. I agree 100%.

Meagan: It discredits, I feel like.

Brett: Yeah, it takes away from all of the hard work that we went through. It takes the mom out of it and it makes it all about the baby. Birth isn’t just about the baby. Birth is also about the mom.

Julie: I agree. I feel the same way about the phrase, when everyone in my life tells me, “It will be okay. It will be okay.” I’m like, “It will be okay. I know that. It will be okay, but right now it’s not okay.”

Meagan: It doesn’t feel okay.

Julie: So, I need help now.

Brett: I love the concept of toxic positivity and how being positive is good, but you can be too positive. If you don’t give people the space to talk about their emotions and talk about their trauma, you are not helping. You are just silencing them and shutting them down. I feel like that happens a lot to women who go through traumatic births.

Julie: Yeah, totally. Alright, Meagan. Next question.

Meagan: What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or have worked through?

Brett: I think for me it was probably the feeling of failure and the guilt that came along with it. I chose to switch to a home birth VBAC around 35 weeks mostly because of COVID, but I was honestly using that as an excuse. I really wanted to try for a home birth VBAC. I paid for the midwife in addition to the OB. I spent all the extra money on all the extra things. You all know what I am talking about.

Julie: Yeah.

Brett: I still failed to get my VBAC despite having perfect conditions. I was at home with my mom, and my husband, and a midwife who is supportive. I did everything and I still failed to do it. Knowing that in having two C-sections now, I am limiting the number of kids I can most likely have, it hurts. The guilt for all of the effort and money that I put into something that I “failed at”, it is real.

Julie: It is real. No, those are very real things. I agree with you guys 100%. Everything you have said has touched me in a whole bunch of different ways. So, thank you for sharing that with us. Okay, my turn. 

What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your story or have you not even gotten to that point yet?

Brett: Honestly, even though I didn’t get my VBAC, my CBAC birth was super healing for me. My first birth was just hell. 29 hours of induced labor with every medication side effect in the book. The magnesium made me feel like I had the flu. I puked over 40 times during labor. Then, our son came out not breathing and I didn’t get to meet him for five hours. I was a drugged mess and don’t remember pretty much most of it. S

With this birth, I went into labor on my own. I had a wonderful labor at home. My husband made burgers in the middle of labor and I devoured a whole burger in two minutes in the middle of labor. Even when we made the decision to transfer, that part was emotionally traumatic, our son came out screaming and I heard his voice right away. I got to hold him right away and we got skin-to-skin, which I didn’t get with Landon. I didn’t get to meet him for the first five hours and it just made a really big difference in healing after the first for me.

Julie: I think that’s really important. I just had a chuckle when you said cheeseburgers because I am a big fan of cheeseburgers. I always joke about that. When I tell my clients about eating and drinking during labor, I am like, “I like smoothies and stuff because if you’re going to throw up, they generally come up smoother than a cheeseburger does.” And so, I am always talking about cheeseburgers and birth.

Brett: I actually ate a cheeseburger. My husband was making them. My husband is a chef and so we said, “Well, you can make food for the midwife and stuff. It will distract you while I am in labor.” So, he made burgers. They asked if I wanted one and I was like, “You know what? Yes. I would love one.” I literally ate the whole thing before the midwife had even sat down with her plate of food. It was great.

Julie: Good for you.

Brett: It was awesome. And then because I ended up with a C-section, I didn’t get to eat and I had all the side effects to the medication again, so I didn’t get to eat for 24 hours after that cheeseburger. it was a good thing I had the cheeseburger.

Meagan: Yeah, that’s so awesome. Okay so, is there anything uplifting? Look, I am not even looking at the questions now. Yes, something positive or uplifting you have found in your story?

Julie: What else do you want people to know?

Meagan: I thought it was number three. Oh yeah, duh. She just said that.

Brett: That was number three.

Meagan: Okay. 

What else do you want people to know?

Julie: Cheeseburgers. I know we got distracted. Sorry.

Brett: That’s alright. I wish that people understood that the emotional healing from a Cesarean is just as important as the physical healing. A Cesarean incision heals over long before the emotional wounds stop hurting, but nobody really thinks about that part. We are kind of just left on our own to try and muddle through that. That’s hard.

Meagan: Yes. Yes. I think that is so powerful. I had a provider once tell a client, “Oh, as soon as she feels like she can stand up and walk she will be fine.” I was like, “Uh, OK.”

Julie: So nonchalant about it.

Brett: Yeah. My incision didn’t heal for three months this time. The first time, it was within a couple of weeks and this time I think it was September before my incision fully healed. Honestly, I think it’s because we went to the beach and I spent three days in the saltwater. I think that’s the only reason it actually finally healed over. I don’t know why it took so long, but even then, the emotional stuff was still there when the incision finally healed.

Meagan: Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I love all of your points.

Grace

Julie: Alright. Up next, last but not least, or maybe it is the best of all the game. Right? Alright, Grace. Meagan, do you want to ask the first question?

Meagan: Yes. Okay, Grace. 

What is something that you wish people would know about your CBAC or just CBAC in general?

Grace: Hi. So first, I just wanted to say thanks for having me on along with these other warrior women. Something I think I wish people knew was how much we all actually invest in fighting and trying for our VBAC and getting there emotionally, physically, and in some cases, financially. I think like someone had said earlier, I was planning my VBAC while I was still in the hospital after having my daughter. I knew I needed a new provider and a new hospital. I wanted a doula. Right from that day on, it was a journey for me for sure.

Julie: That’s amazing. Thank you so much for sharing that. Okay, second question: 

What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through now or had to work through after your birth?

Grace: My CBAC was definitely emotionally healing in comparison to my first Cesarean. My first Cesarean was from an induced labor, a long labor, my doctor was very impatient. He made me push way before I was ready to. I ended up under general anesthesia, so I really have no positive feelings from my daughter’s birth, unfortunately. This time, I went into labor on my own. I got to labor at home before I went to the hospital. I was pushing. I got everything that I wanted other than literally just pushing a baby out myself. So, that was that.

But then I think about, “Well, what if?” All of the what if’s are what I am really struggling with most days is, “What if I got the epidural this time that I really was so strongly against based on my first experience with it? Maybe it would have let me labor a little bit longer,” or, “What if I had just pushed longer instead of making that decision myself to opt for the Cesarean?”

My son this time ended up being OP and I knew he was going to be pretty big, so both my midwife and my doula were like, “Well, if it was one or the other maybe we could work through it,” but I think the combination of the two was really stacked against me. At the end of it, they let me make the decision if I wanted to keep trying or to do the Cesarean. I remember my midwife asking me, “Deep down, dig deep. Do you feel it inside if you can push the baby out?” Honestly, I self-reflected and I really didn’t think I could, so that’s why we chose the Cesarean. But then again, what if? What if I would have just stuck with it? What if I would have just pushed a little longer? It kills me.

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I know. Those “what if‘s”, they can really get to us. It is hard not to ask the “what if‘s”. I feel like we start the “what if‘s” before we even go into labor. Even in the decision to VBAC or to CBAC, “What if I do this? What if I could deliver vaginally? What if I have something bad happen?” You know, there are just those “what if‘s”. It’s personally something so hard to get through.

Grace: Yeah. I think at the end of the day, I was like, “I really want this VBAC, but I really want my baby here healthy more.” It’s putting my wants aside for, “Yeah, I would love the VBAC, but I really would love my baby to be here now, healthily instead.”

Meagan: Mhmm. Yeah, definitely. Okay, question number two is: 

What is one of the biggest emotions you are working through or have worked through post-birth?

Grace: I think we just did that.

Meagan: See? This is what the thing is. I do the wrong question every time. Nope. It’s number three. It’s: 

What is something positive or uplifting you have found in your story?

I am just listening to the answer and not knowing what the next question is.

Julie: I know, we just get so lost in all of these amazing answers.

Meagan: I’m just relating, yes.

Grace: My whole journey this pregnancy, leading up to even getting pregnant and then my whole pregnancy, I just felt empowered. I was self-advocating. I researched a ton. With my first pregnancy, I was under the care of doctors and I just naïvely trusted them. They said to do this and I’m like, “Well, they are the experts. Okay.” This time, I really educated myself. I knew what my rights were and what I could get. I switched to a midwife. I hired a doula. I went to a different hospital. I did literally all of the things that I could do and that were there for me. Even though I ended up with a CBAC like I said, it was healing for me and I felt confident that I exhausted all my options. I left no stone unturned so to say in what I could have done. So, I was proud of myself for all of those things.

Meagan: You should be.

Grace: Thank you.

Julie: I think it’s great that you can look back on your birth like that and feel confident in your choices. That’s really important.

Grace: Yeah, for sure.

Julie: Alright, last question. Anything else you want people to know?

Grace: I think the biggest thing is that we can still love our babies unconditionally and yet still yearn for a certain birth story. I think some other women have said, people always say, “Well, at least the baby is healthy.” Yeah, of course. That should just not be not even said. That is number one for everybody. Mom and baby, yes. Number one. That should just be taken off the table. But, vaginal births have been part of women forever and ever. That is what we are “made to do”. I am saying these things with air quotes. So I just feel like, we can love our kids no matter what and we can still love to have a certain birth.

Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. You guys, so many incredible words and thoughts. I feel like, Julie, if you have been writing these down, we’ve got a lot of amazing Instagram posts.

Julie: Oh yes, yes. There were a lot. We want to wrap it up. Unfortunately, we have to go. I really wish we could just sit and talk with you ladies all day. I just love you guys so much. 

VBAC and CBAC birth plans 

I want to close it off because I want to take it back to something that Anne said. When you interview your provider for your VBAC, don’t just think about how they will support you through a VBAC. Consider how they will support you if things don’t go the way you want and if you end up with a repeat Cesarean. Maybe start asking those questions too, while you are talking about your birth plan and you’re preparing for your VBAC. 

Talk about a back-up Cesarean plan with them. What happens if something comes up and a Cesarean becomes necessary? Then how are you going to be supported? You might not like their answers, but you might feel just as supported as you are when they are talking about your VBAC preparation. And so, I just wanted to-- I just really loved that when you said that, Anne.

Like I said, I have lots of notes from all you others too. But, I just really want to emphasize that to close this off because sometimes births don’t go the way you planned. In fact, I would say, every birth doesn’t go as planned. Sometimes it’s in really little, teeny ways, but sometimes it’s in really big ways. Having support all along the way, no matter how it goes is very, very important. I encourage you, you listeners right now, to get educated about repeat Cesareans, to know the reasons why they may be necessary, and to have those conversations with your provider along the way.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

In a VBAC Link podcast first, we are joined by both a parent and her doula to share an inspiring VBAC story with us. Harmony, a VBAC mom, talks about her journey to better health, trusting her intuition to feel confident with an out-of-hospital birth setting, and how crucial it was to have a rock-solid support system. Kimberly, one of our VBAC Certified Doulas, chimes in to share her unique perspective on Harmony’s birth. 

Their sweet friendship shows us just how special the bond can become between you and your doula. Kimberly says to Harmony, “Stories like yours are exactly why I am passionate about VBAC. I was honored to get to be a part of your experience.” 

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

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Kimberly’s Website: Dulce Birthing Services

This episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.

Interested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast and as always, we are excited to be with you today. Today, we have something special for you. We have actually never done this before. Today is going to be so fun to hear the stories from both sides. We have both a parent and her doula with you today. They are going to share a VBAC story. 

We have Harmony and Kimberly. Harmony is the mom and Kimberly is the doula. She had a VBAC just six weeks ago, so we are so excited to hear her story. As always, we have a Review of the Week before we dive right in. I will turn the time over to Julie.

Julie: I am really, really, really excited about the story too. Kimberly has been on our podcast a couple of times. She is on our Doulas Tell All episode, and she shared her VBAC after four C-sections story, so if you want, you can just go back to the search bar, search for Kimberly, and her story will come up as well.

I am really excited to have a doula-parent duo on as well. We are so grateful for them. Harmony and Kimberly are from Texas-- just outside of Austin, Texas it looks like.

I am going to read a Review of the Week. This review is from angelle.boyd on Apple Podcasts and the title of her review-- it’s really long but it’s cute. She says “Thank you, ladies! Best podcast to help prepare for a VBAC and an amazing birthing experience.”

She goes on to say, “First off, just had my successful unmedicated VBAC at the hospital in June all thanks to this podcast and you wonderful ladies. During my TOLAC, I continued to think of all the amazing stories I listened to on this podcast to get me through labor. Shouting out loud during labor, “I am a woman of strength and my body knows what it is doing,” was so empowering! I started listening to this podcast and could not stop. Each episode has something that can contribute and help women during their birth journey. I love how encouraging each episode is and that it goes through all types of scenarios that can happen during birth, regardless of trying for a VBAC. 

This can help better prepare any woman for all types of outcomes because let’s face it, giving birth is unpredictable! So thankful for listening to all the suggested tips to having a VBAC. I actually did every single one of them and happily had an amazing VBAC. Can’t thank you, ladies, enough, and hope this continues to help change the way our society sees birth! Yes, to women of strength! We got this!”

Boom. I love that review. That was exciting. Congratulations, angelle.boyd on your VBAC. We are so happy for you. Now, without further ado, let’s get to the story because we have a VBAC Trained Doula and a parent who had a VBAC. We are ready to rock and roll.

Julie: Do you want a VBAC but don’t know where to start? It’s easy to feel like we need to figure it all out on our own. That’s what we used to do, and it was the loneliest and most ineffective thing we have ever done. That’s why Meagan and I created our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents, which you can find at thevbaclink.com. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. 

Together, Meagan and I have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head on over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there.

Meagan: Let’s get into the story. So, so excited. I am excited to see how this flows, and how you guys chime in, and your different perspectives. I am so excited. Let’s turn the time over to you fine ladies.

Kimberly: Hi, Harmony.

Harmony: Hey, Kim. We haven’t seen each other since the birth, but we are planning to this Friday actually. So, this is kind of cool. Yeah, the same goes for me that if you remember something that I don’t because it was a little blurry at points for me understandably, please, you can chime in whenever.

Well, I guess I will just start by saying that I got pregnant with my daughter in 2015. My husband and I had been married for a couple of years. Sometime during that first couple of years, I actually was diagnosed with PCOS by my doctor.

Meagan: Which is Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome.

Harmony: Yeah. Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome. I remember coming home and telling my husband because I was pretty upset. I really wanted to have a baby. I just was worried about the fertility issues with that. We waited. I think it was in 2015 that we started trying to get pregnant. We had actually moved to Tulsa temporarily-- didn’t know it was temporarily. We are back in Texas now. 

We had been there for about a year, year and a half and started trying to get pregnant. I got pregnant right away. That in and of itself was huge for somebody with PCOS. I went through that pregnancy and had some blood pressure and blood sugar issues. The blood pressure issue was why I got induced. My doctor was wonderful. He basically just tried to get me to the very end before he did any type of intervention. I just wanted to say that up front, that I know my experience is a little bit different because my doctor-- his wife actually had a VBAC. He made a point to tell me that his C-section rate was really low. He was well-connected with the midwives in the area and so I knew I was in good hands with my pregnancy and that he wasn’t going to push me to be induced or have a C-section unless that was the option for us.

I reached the end of my pregnancy and my blood pressure just kept increasing. He said, “Well, I think what we should probably go ahead and do is induce you,” because he checked me. I had asked him to check me. I should probably say that as well. He didn’t do routine cervical checks. I asked him to check me that Friday and he said, “Okay.” I think I was dilated .5-1 centimeters, so not a ton.

He said, “Since your blood pressure is going up, I’d like to go ahead and induce you.” I shared with him that I was concerned about that because I didn’t want to have a C-section if I could help it. He said, “I totally understand that.” He said, “I just want to tell you that there’s nothing wrong with you if you end up in a C-section. I am still going to make sure she is on your chest immediately.” He really tried to encourage me. He said, “I don’t see it going that way, but if it does, I want you to know I will make sure that all of that bonding happens.”

I went to the induction feeling like, “Well, this is the option.” I think they used Cervidil. Is that a common thing that is used usually? The night before, they inserted that.

Meagan: Yeah, Cervidil. It’s a pill.

Harmony: Okay, yeah. That’s what it was, and then I had some cramping. My husband and I had been watching Lost on TV or on Netflix. So, we started watching that. He stayed there with me, but I couldn’t get comfortable. I was feeling crampy and I couldn’t sleep very well. By the next day, I did start to have some contractions after they gave me a little bit of Pitocin. My daughter’s heart rate immediately dropped after having the Pitocin. My doctor was in a delivery and I remember the nurses rushing in, turning me over on my side, putting oxygen on me. It was very scary.

Unfortunately, he wasn’t there at the moment, so I didn’t have that reassuring comfort from him that, “You are going to be okay. We are going to figure this out,” but he got there as soon as he could and explained to me what was going on, that she wasn’t really responding very well to the Pitocin. We talked about trying some other interventions and he said, “I can insert a Foley bulb, and take you off of the Pitocin, and see if we can manually get you to dilate that way.” That’s what I decided to do.

He was actually right in the middle of checking my cervix when we talked about that. I always tell this because it makes me laugh, looking back. He’s really funny. He said, “Okay. Well, I am going to go have them get the Foley bulb. I am just not going to take my hand out at this point,” because he knew it was really painful for me every time he had to do that. The nurses went to go get the Foley bulb and when they left he said to me, “So, how’s it going?” trying to make it not so awkward because he was literally just sitting there with his hand in my vagina. 

But that’s part of what I loved about him, was that it wasn’t-- he really respected me and he was trying to make it as easy as he could for me. So, he inserted the Foley bulb and I think I dilated. I still was having contractions even after they dropped it down for me.

This is where it gets a little blurry for me because I don’t remember if I still had a little bit of Pitocin. Her heart rate dropped two more times after that and it was scary for me. That was probably, aside from-- the C-section wasn’t really that scary for me. It was hearing her heart rate slow down that really terrified me. So, after that third time that her heart rate dropped, he came in and sat down on the bed beside me and he said, “Look. I know neither one of us wanted it to go this way, but this is what is happening at this point.” He said, “I don’t really want to rush you in an emergency where we can’t control how she is born and have her there on your chest. So I think at this point, the best thing to do is go ahead and do the C-section.” I said to him, “Yes.” At that point, I was like, “Yes, please. I can’t hear her heart rate drop one more time.”

They wheeled me in there and they made sure I was all set up. They were very respectful. I know in the stories that I have heard since my C-section, I realize how fortunate and blessed I was to have the doctor that I had, and have the nurses, and have the anesthesiologist that I had because there are some pretty horrible C-section stories. They got me all set up and pretty soon, he had her out and put her on my chest.

It wasn’t what I saw for my birth, but it was our story and I was able to hold her. I was so exhausted at that point from all the medication and just the birth itself. With the hormones, I was shaking and everything like that. I was afraid I was going to drop her. I remember saying to the neonatal nurse, “I want to hold her, but I am afraid I’m going to drop her.” She was like, “You’re not going to drop her. We are right here. You can hold her.” Again, they were really supportive.

So, of course, a C-section recovery isn’t fun. I had to basically recover from a major surgery while learning to become a mom for the first time. She ended up having to go to the NICU the next day because she had tachypnea, which is rapid breathing directly caused from the C-section because she didn’t go through my birth canal. That wasn’t fun either because I had to be separated from my baby there in the hospital. 

We eventually got home and moved on with life. I knew that-- I remember my doctor coming into the hospital room, I think it was the next day or day after, checking on me, and I immediately knew when I was there in the hospital that I was going to have a VBAC the next time I had a baby. I was already planning it. I said to him, “So, when can I get pregnant again?” I could tell in his face he was just like, “I can’t believe you are asking me that right now after having just had a C-section.” But I was already looking forward to the VBAC because I knew that we had wanted to have more kids.

I thought we would get pregnant sooner, but time passed quickly it feels like. My daughter was-- I think she had just turned four and we decided, “Okay, let’s go ahead and start trying for another baby.” We did. I think I got pregnant pretty much in the same amount of time that was with my daughter. I have been very blessed to get pregnant really fast, like I said, especially even with PCOS.

Oh sorry-- I should back up and say that the time in between that pregnancy, I really looked at why I had ended up in that C-section. Sometimes, there is not an explanation and sometimes it just happens. For me, I knew that it was my blood pressure that had caused me to have to be induced. I knew that for my own body, when I carry more weight, my blood pressure-- it doesn’t take long before my body goes, “Whoa, whoa. Danger,” and my blood pressure shoots up.

My body, I thought, just couldn’t handle that additional weight from the pregnancy. I decided to lose 50 pounds. That was actually my goal. I had already lost the 25 that I gained with my daughter.

Meagan: Nice work. That’s awesome.

Harmony: Thanks. Yeah, that’s the most weight I have ever lost.  I have a hard time losing it if it is just because I want to look better. It was more like-- it was the biggest motivator I ever had, was having a vaginal birth. I really felt like in my heart that if I could get to a better way that it would just be less pressure on my body. I walked and I actually just tried to let it come off easily. I didn’t do any crash dieting or anything like that. I think it took about a year. I had gone and seen the birth center that I was interested in.

So, I was planning all this stuff all along even though I wasn’t even pregnant yet. I wanted it all lined up so that when I got pregnant I would know what my plan was. During that time, I lost that weight and I would walk. While I was walking, I was listening to The VBAC Link podcast, actually, every single day that I would walk. I did that to normalize in my mind the VBAC experience. I wanted to feel like women are having this all the time. In the medical world, it’s talked about as being super risky and scary, but as I looked at the data and the information, I knew that wasn’t true. I tried to normalize all of this in my head and make it not so scary for myself.

It turned out that quite a few women in my life-- as I talked about that I was going to try for this VBAC-- had VBACs themselves. It was funny how-- I am a believer and a Christian. It was odd to me how in my life I found that around me there were about four or five women that were sprinkled around me that had VBACs and even more made me feel like, “Yes. This is okay for me. This is safe and women are doing it. It just encouraged me even more.”

I visited a birth center after I got pregnant here in Texas-- Central Texas Birth Center in Georgetown. It’s about 35 minutes from me. I went in with my mom originally and when I walked out, I said, “I feel like I’m going to give birth here.” I just felt really strongly. My mom said, “I feel the same way.” Neither one of us have had experience birthing out of the hospital. That feeling was just so strong that I knew in my gut that that was probably where I was going to have my baby. 

I went back with my husband and he said, “Yeah.” He said, “I feel like if it were me and I was having this baby, I would do it in a hospital. But I feel like this is right for you and that you are going to be supported here.” He just wanted to know that if anything happened that they had a transfer protocol in place. And they did, but I definitely in my mind was like, “I am not even going to talk about that.” I didn’t want to scare myself or speak something over me that wasn’t going to happen. 

But he was very supportive. My whole family has been very supportive. I know that Kim-- I don’t know if you want to talk about that Kim, but she said to me that the support that I had around me was really maybe a little bit unusual because it was my mother-in-law, my mom, and my husband. They were very 100% in with me which was great.

Kimberly: From a doula perspective, it was really fantastic to walk into a situation that all of your immediate family was super supportive of your plan because so often we play the go-between of “Mom is too nervous,” or “Dad is too nervous,” and they don’t want the birth plan to go-- They have different ideas of what they think is safe or normal and to see that your whole family was on board with this plan or birthing outside of the hospital with the provider that you had chosen. It made your job easier. It made my job easier and, I think, ultimately led to the best support you could possibly get in your birth. Not just in the pregnancy, but there was no wavering. There was no fear, no wavering of emotion in the moment when you needed everybody to be steadfast for you.

Harmony: Yeah, definitely. I know I jumped ahead a little bit with that, but I feel like that was just really important to say that it helped me make my decision to see my husband so calm and confident with it. It was new for me to even consider birthing out of the hospital. But I just felt like-- I had looked at providers through the ICAN Facebook page. I did some investigating and I just did not feel in my heart for me that I was going to be supported the way that I wanted to be for a VBAC. 

I didn’t want to be under a time limit at my gestation where I was going to have to be induced. That was my own personal feeling, a decision that I wanted to be in the right place so that I could let my body do what I was going to do. I knew that there would be nothing more worrisome for me than feeling like I was on a deadline. I knew that that was going to make my blood pressure shoot up. I was like, “I’ve got to be able to relax here.”

I chose to go with that birth center. They were wonderful-- my midwife and all of the people there. At one of my appointments, I think I was about 10 weeks, I started taking my blood sugar. I started eating more lower carbs to try and head off any blood sugar issues. I also took some supplements to help with my blood pressure. I really went through that pregnancy with no complications this time. I had a lot more energy. I know it was probably taking the pressure off of my body. 

I know that there are tons of women who have totally normal and totally healthy pregnancies with extra weight. I just want to be sure and say that too, that if you are plus size, that does not mean that you can’t have a VBAC. I did this for myself because of my own body. I knew that I needed to get some pressure off of my body. It was really important to me to say that because I don’t want anybody to hear that you are limited because you are more plus size or anything like that.

Meagan: Totally. Thank you for confirming that.

Harmony: Yeah. I didn’t want that to be misunderstood that I feel like you have to lose weight to have a VBAC because you do not, but I felt like my body did. I’m glad that I listened to my own body and did that because it turned out to be right for me. I didn’t have any complications. 

I did also-- one of the things that I tried to do to set myself up for success was hire a doula, which is Kim, who you just heard earlier. We met on a Facebook video chat because COVID had just started happening. We had to set up a time and meet together. When I spoke to her, I knew that she had a lot of experience that I wanted. I can’t remember where I had read it, but I knew that you had had your own VBACs. That was important to me because I knew that you understood the mindset of feeling like it would be really easy for a woman that has had a C-section to feel like her body is broken. That, a lot of times gets pushed even further when a provider makes you feel that way.

So, I knew that she believed in them because she had them and I also knew that she had some experience in Spinning Babies®. I know we talked about that in our first video call. Spinning Babies®, and I asked her about the rebozo because I had read stories about how that has been helpful. You have a lot of other certifications. I can’t remember what they are in. Oh, I’m sorry. I should also say that I found her through Instagram. She came upon one of the stories for the Instagram on The VBAC Link and it said that she was a VBAC Link Certified Doula.

Julie: Yeah, when she first got her certification. We used to post those to our stories. We are not very good at that anymore. We should probably start doing that again, it sounds like.

Harmony: No, it was right after she had been certified, I think. I think you were the only one in Texas at the time. Is that right?

Kimberly: I was.

Harmony: Okay. It just so happened that she was only about 45 minutes away from me. That also worked out great. After I talked to her, I knew that she was somebody I wanted to go with. I wanted to also talk about how you have the added element of being pregnant during COVID during this time, and how I obviously didn’t expect that curveball. It scared me in the beginning because it was so new. We didn’t know anything about it.

Kimberly: I think when we-- after you interviewed me and hired me, there was the whole COVID thing and we had to meet over video. But shifting that direction because of COVID and doing the in-home visits was really important. I think it helped us bond better. When I showed up to your house the first time-- well, first of all, you had a different experience in that your Cesarean-- you didn’t necessarily have all of the negative associations that a lot of the women that I work with have with their Cesarean, that they feel like it was unnecessary. 

So, it was great to get to walk into a situation where you were like, “That was my birth. It’s okay. I’m okay with that, but this is how my new birth is going to be. This is how this one is going to go.” It was great to get to not have to spend all of our time necessarily working through birth trauma, but really getting to focus on that prep for, “Okay, you had a hospital birth. Now, let’s prep you for an out-of-hospital birth and the differences, and really focus on comfort measures.” I think us being able to do it at your home-- I felt like it was a lot more of a comfortable environment. It really felt like just sitting down and chatting with a friend when we talked.

Harmony: Yeah, me too.

Kimberly: I couldn’t believe how fast time flew when we were there at your house just chatting, but I loved being able to have that moment and get your husband involved in a space where I knew he would feel more comfortable doing things and being active versus meeting somewhere in public. I think that really worked to our benefit.

Harmony: Yeah, I do too. I 100 percent feel the same way. I feel like I made a friend through this. It wasn’t just somebody that I hired to help me through my birth.

Kimberly: Absolutely.

Harmony: I definitely feel that way, too. I agree with all of that. I guess I will just start talking about the birth now. I wanted to spend some time on the other things because I felt like it was important to show that for me, this birth story started way back. It was all the footwork that I had to do ahead of time to make myself feel more comfortable going into the pregnancy that I wasn’t, hopefully, going to have the same complications. And then if I did, I would just feel like, “Okay. I did everything I could and that’s okay. I’m going to birth my baby the same way I birthed my other one and that’s okay.”

My due date was September 30th and I had an odd sensation that happened for me. I looked back, and on about 9/18, my in-laws were coming into town. They were coming in about two weeks ahead of time to try to be there for the birth. As I pulled up, I got out of the car. Around the same time I was pulling up and I got out to meet them, I felt this weird drop in my body. It was uncomfortable.

He had been really low. He was on my left side, head-down for most of the pregnancy. But this was painful, where I couldn’t straighten up my body. I was talking to my in-laws and I was like, “Sorry guys, I cannot walk right now. I can’t move.” I don’t know if that was him moving down even further. I’m not really sure. I think I texted both Kim and my midwife, Sally, at that point and said, “Okay, I don’t know what just happened, but I haven’t had this yet.” 

So about 9/22, which was four days later or so, I started having consistent contractions as I was laying on the couch watching TV with my husband. I looked at the clock and they were coming about 10 minutes apart, but I didn’t say anything to my husband because I knew he was already kind of nervous about, “Okay, we need to make sure we are at the birth center because I don’t want to have the baby here at the house.” He was really afraid that he was going to have to end up delivering the baby.

Kimberly: I think that was his biggest fear the whole time.

Harmony: Yeah. Yeah, because we had some friends that told us that she had gone into labor. She was actually seeing my same midwife. She ended up delivering at home accidentally and her husband had to deliver the baby. He texted my husband the next day and my husband was like, “Whoa. that is not happening.” He was very freaked out by that.

He just wanted to make sure that we were really paying attention to the contractions. I was looking at the clock and they were coming about 10 minutes apart and I said, “Okay, these are coming 10 minutes apart.” I don’t know if that meant anything because I hadn’t gone into labor with my daughter naturally, so I just didn’t know. I texted-- I don’t know if I texted you or not, Kim. Do you remember?

Kimberly: I think you texted me the second day.

Harmony: Okay, I think maybe you are right. I know that I texted my midwife and she said, “Okay. That’s great. Go ahead and try to go to sleep and rest through them.” I mostly was able to sleep through them through the night. They would kind of wake me, but I was able to go back to sleep. 

The next morning, I texted my midwife and she agreed that maybe this was just warming up to my labor, and I should focus on them and try not to track them. I know I didn’t do a very good job of that because I was very like, “Oh, these are happening. I need to start tracking these.” If I had to do it over again, I would have listened to my midwife. I would have tried to relax and not paid so much attention to them because they actually went on-- let’s see, until about 9/27.

I had prodromal labor for several days following this. Yeah, 9/24. It looks like that evening they were starting up again. They were still regular, so I tried to sleep through them, but they were getting stronger with each night. I started to get a dull ache in my lower abdomen, and my pelvis, and my back, and I just couldn’t get comfortable. I couldn’t sleep because they kept waking me up. They were strong enough where I found myself waking up moaning through them, but they were still very irregular.

I texted my midwife and she told me to still try to sleep through them. She was just telling me that sleep is so important. “You really need to try to rest,” but it was like I could not do it because they just kept waking me. I was feeling nauseous the next day because I hadn’t had any sleep. I was exhausted. When I would try to take naps and lay down, the contractions would start up again and they would be strong. When I would try to sleep, it was like I’d lay down and that was their cue to, “Okay, you’re going to rest now? Okay, now we are going to do what we need to do to try to get you into labor.”

On 9/25, I still had lots of aches, lots of pain in my pelvis. I went on a light walk because I was like, “I think I’m going to try to go on a little walk.” I live on my parents’ land out in the country. So, I walked down the street down their dirt road and back. When I got back, I felt like I needed to go to the bathroom. When I went to the bathroom, I noticed that I had a tiny brown-- I don’t know what you would even call it-- like, a piece of matter. I was like, “Well, that’s interesting.” 

I texted Kim and my midwife at that point to let them know that I hadn’t seen that before, so I think some things may be starting to happen. After that, I tried to nap for a few more hours and the contractions just kept coming when I would try to go to sleep. The next day, I texted my midwife and said, “I’ve had contractions all night, but they are not coming closer together. They are getting harder as I sleep.”

The next day, I texted my midwife because I had had painful contractions through the night and they kept me up again. It was just prodromal labor, which I guess everybody talks about, and then, I didn’t know that was what I was experiencing. But I would have to get on my hands and knees, I would wake up from the contraction, get on my hands and knees to get comfortable. I would walk around the room. I’d have to lean over the bed. I just couldn’t lay down and contract. 

I think it was the following day on 9/27 that I was in the bathtub trying to get some relief and I decided to call Kim. I felt bad because I could tell I woke you up. I think it was early that morning and I just--

Kimberly: It was early, but I live that life. I expect it.

Harmony: I know. I was like, “She’s probably okay.” I was always like, “I hate inconveniencing people,” so I was like, “No. I don’t want to call her, but man these contractions.” I don’t know if this is labor that I am in. If it is time to do something, or you just don’t know.

Julie: I think it’s so funny when people say that. They have said that to me too like, “Oh, I am so sorry I had to call you at 3 o’clock in the morning because I was having a baby,” and I’m like, “No. You are literally paying me to wake me up at 3 o’clock in the morning.”

Kimberly: This is what you hired me for.

Meagan: I tell people if I had a problem with waking up at 3 o’clock in the morning, I clearly chose the wrong career.

Julie: I wouldn’t be a doula.

Harmony: Yeah, exactly. But when you were in it, you were just like, “Is it just me making this a big deal? Do I really need to call somebody?” I was afraid that I was like, “Okay, I just need to hang in here,” because I was still just trying to rest, but I couldn’t do it and they were getting worse. Kim told me to do some inversions. Maybe you want to talk about that part, that you felt like he was just trying to get in a good position and that’s why I was having them.

Kimberly: Yeah, sometimes prodromal labor can be caused just by something minor and baby’s position. Not always the case, but it was worth a shot. The inversion helps dislodge baby just enough so that they can make enough of a rotation with their head or their body and correct themselves. Sometimes that can cause things to pick up once they start again and turn into active labor.

Meagan: I was just going to say, and it’s actually stopped labor to allow moms to totally go to sleep because it fixed the baby’s position and helped the baby, right?

Kimberly: Absolutely.

Harmony: Yeah. From my own perspective, I think that I just could not get comfortable laying down because he was probably in an awkward position. When I would have those contractions, getting up on my hands and knees or walking around the room, that seemed to be the only thing that would give him a little bit of room. 

So, I went into the living room and I did some inversions. I called my mom and she came down to support me. At that point, I was in tears because I was just so tired and they were hurting. I wasn’t sure what was happening, but I did a couple of those inversions. I cried through them. But pretty soon, they got more bearable. I didn’t feel the same, like he was large, which was what I kind of felt like. My mom actually did do some belly sifting with the rebozo that Kim had left for me. There were lots of tears. I was tired, but I was feeling like, “Okay, something is starting to happen, I hope. I hope it doesn’t go on like this forever.” I tried to take a nap that day, but I couldn’t. I couldn’t rest. I didn’t go into this with a lot of rest as you’re probably gathering.

That night, it was September 27th. I talked to both Kim and my midwife, Sally. Sally really encouraged me, “You really need to rest if you can at all. Why don’t you go ahead and try to take some Benadryl or have a glass of wine and just see if you can go to sleep?” I had some Benadryl on hand so I did take a couple of pills. I got in the recliner because-- I talked to Kim about that too, that I could not lay down and feel comfortable. 

I know it’s not preferred to recline, but when we talked, we decided if that was the only way that I could get rest, then that was probably what I should do. My husband and my mom-- my mom came down to be with me from her house. My husband, mom, and I watched TV. They turned the TV on and I decided not to track my contractions because my midwife told me to do that to focus on trying to get rest. My husband said, “Okay. I am going to track them because I want you to rest, but I want to make sure that if we get close enough, that we have enough time to contact Kim to come because she told me to call her when they were about 5 to 6 minutes apart.” I think that was because of his positioning. Right, Kim? That he was head down, and he was low and on my left side.

Kimberly: I know we talked about intensity too, and monitoring for changes from what I had been. If something’s shifted from what you have been experiencing, then that was probably things ramping up. Then, I would want to be heading your way.

Harmony: Yeah, definitely. I had given my husband my midwife‘s number and Kim’s number just so that he would have it in case I wasn’t able to contact them. I had dozed off and on in the chair, but I kept having the contractions. I didn’t know how far apart they were. They would wake me up. I would look over at my husband and he would time them as I was having them. At one point, he paused the TV show and said, “Okay. These are about 5 to 6 minutes apart. It’s been that way for a little while, so I think we need to call Kim.” 

In that moment, I think because I had had so much prodromal labor leading up to that I just was like, “No.” Again, I didn’t want to bother her because I felt like they were going to slow down again. I was like, “I don’t want to have her come all the way over here. She lives about 45 minutes away. I don’t want to have her drive here and them just stop again.”

We argued about that for a little while and he’s like, “I’m calling her.” So, he called her. I don’t know if you want to say anything about the phone call or anything, Kim, because I can’t remember the conversation very much at all.

Kimberly: Yeah, he made it very clear on the phone. He was like, “So, Harmony didn’t want me to call. But I think things are picking up. I would like for you to head this way.” I was like, “Okay. I’m coming.”

Harmony: After he got off the phone, I was like, “No, they are going to slow down.” My mom was like, “Harmony, she made a decision to come. You need to just be okay with that.” I was like, “Okay.” They tried to make it less like I was twisting your arm into coming. This is when I realized that as far as labor goes, time doesn’t exist. When you got there, it felt like it had been five minutes, but you are about 45 minutes away. I remember when you walked in feeling like, “Oh my gosh, she is already here. That was really fast.”

You came over and started immediately putting counterpressure on my hips because I was laying on the couch. It was just so good to know that you were there because I didn’t know what to expect. I had never had a natural birth before and I didn’t know when I needed to go. I would say, that’s so helpful to have a doula there really that knows because they have experienced it, and then I could relax, and have my contractions, and trust you to go, “Okay. I think we probably need to start thinking about heading over.”

From what I remember, there was a lot of rushing around by my mother-in-law, and my mom, and my husband making sure that we had everything in the bags that we needed. My dad came down to watch my four-year-old daughter, who was asleep when we left at about 1:00 a.m., and started to head over. My husband called my midwife and said, “Okay, we are headed over.” I know that we talked about not leaving too early because I wanted to make sure that I was really in active labor before I got in the car.

Kimberly: I think you were in good, active labor. I saw that you were in a good pattern and your husband being nervous-- I didn’t want that to affect you. I know that his worry was having a baby at home, so I didn’t want that nervousness to affect your labor. I felt like for everyone, the situation was better if we just went ahead and went, even though we still had a little bit of time that we could have waited. I think it allowed him the peace of mind so that he could relax and just focus on helping you.

Harmony: Yeah, exactly. I do remember you saying that now-- that you were like, “I think it would be a good idea. Let’s go ahead and go.”

We got in the car. You followed us in your car. I remember thinking that the contractions were going to stop when I got in the car because we had talked about how that could happen between the house and the birth center. But I didn’t. They kept coming. I remember feeling so encouraged. It was at that point-- and I know that sounds really weird, that it was that far into my labor. I was like, “I am in labor.” It was like it took that much for me to go, “Okay.”

Meagan: It clicked.

Harmony: I know. It sounds really weird because I had been laboring for a long time, but I think prodromal labor really makes you doubt when you are actually in labor.

Meagan: Totally.

Julie: Oh, it totally does. It totally does.

Harmony: Somehow, I remember saying to you, “Kim, I feel like I’m going to disappoint people”. Do you remember me saying that?

Kimberly: I do.

Harmony: I remember saying, “I feel like it’s going to slow down again. Here is everybody doing this for me and it’s going to stop.” But when I got in the car and they kept coming, I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to have a baby.”

Kimberly: You were worried about that false alarm and I’m like, “Nope, this is what we do. Sometimes it happens and it’s okay, but I don’t think that’s happening.”

Harmony: Yeah, exactly. I remember asking you, “Are these going to stop?” when I was laying on the couch. You said, “I don’t think so. I think this is it.”

We got to the birth center and I remember having another really big contraction when I got out of the car. My midwife met us there and she did what you would consider a regular check-in. She checked my blood pressure, and took my temperature, and all those things, and then left me to labor which I think is great. That’s exactly what I wanted. And I had Kim there the whole time. We walked around the hallway. I labored on the couch and on the bed.

Something I wanted to say was how helpful the counterpressure was for me and that you did that even when I was sitting on the couch. She would push on my knees to create counterpressure. That would help me through those.

Kimberly: Your husband did a great job of helping with that too.

Harmony: Yeah, he did. He did great. He was very supportive the whole time, trying to be there for me. 

So, let’s see. On the next morning-- it actually ended up being into the morning. I labored all night, and then my midwife came in. I was laying down on the bed trying to sleep through some of the contractions. I don’t remember everything word for word, but I remember her saying, “I think we should go ahead and check you,” because I don’t think I looked necessarily like-- and this is where you can tell me, Kim-- I don’t know that I looked like I was as far into labor as I was.

Kimberly: You were handling your contractions very well. Your face and your demeanor was very calm the way you were breathing through them, so I’m not sure if maybe she expected that you weren’t going to be as far along as you were, but you were laboring beautifully.

Harmony: Yeah, and later I said to her, “Did you think it was too soon?” She said, “I thought that it was a little soon, but it wasn’t. It was totally right.” She’s wonderful too, very supportive. Like I said, the whole birth center-- and I had a wonderful midwife that was very hands-off as far as my labor. 

So when she checked me, I remember thinking, “What if I am not as far as I think I am?” But when she checked me, she said, “Well, you’re definitely in labor. You are at a 7.” I couldn’t believe it.

I couldn’t believe that I was at a 7 and that I had been laboring active labor that long, and been able to do it without saying, “I can’t do this,” or, “This is too painful,” because my experience with my daughter with the Pitocin was-- those contractions were horrible. They were right on top of each other. There was just no break at all. I think I dilated to maybe a 5 or 6 with her, maybe a 4 or a 5. I’m not positive. But after she checked me and said that I was a 7, I laid there for a little while. My husband was like, “You need to rest. Let’s try to rest for a little bit.” She said, “Yeah. Let’s close the blinds.”

It had become light outside and so my midwife said, “Let’s close the blinds and have you try to rest a little bit, then in a little bit, get you up and walking around.” I think we did that and then I got into the tub at one point, which I really wanted to do. I knew that would be very comforting to me. I stayed in there for a little while.

Again, I had Kim too. I remember getting in the tub being worried that my contractions were going to slow down, but you were tracking them. You were like, “Nope. They’re still coming. They’re still coming at that regular interval for you.” At that point, my midwife did check me and I was still at 7, but she could feel his head and my waters were intact. She said, “Do you want me to break your waters?” I was not sure what I wanted to do at that point, because I really wanted to not have any type of intervention at all. But Kim and I talked about it, and I talked about it with my husband, and we decided, I was at a seven. It probably was okay to go ahead and do that.

We did that and it didn’t take long before the contractions started to feel a little bit more like what I would describe just as-- I don’t know if I can do this. That started to come into my mind. I was like, “This is getting scary for me,” because I felt like-- when you know that you are about to make a decision by breaking your water that you can’t take back, and you can’t escape those contractions at that point, so you just have to go, “Well, this is going to be hard, but I have to see it through.” 

I do remember getting out of the tub at one point, because I just felt like, “I can’t be in this tub by myself.” I started to feel like, “I feel really alone in this tub. I can’t be in the tub by myself. I have to get out.” So, everybody helped me out of the tub. At that point, I remember feeling a sharp, searing pain around my hips and abdomen. That scared me because I just didn’t know if that was my incision or not. Although the percentage of that happening-- isn’t it less than 1%? It still scared me.

My midwife came in at that point. I remember saying, “I am scared.” She said, “Well, what are you scared of?” I said, “I’m afraid that this is my incision.” I’m afraid that the pain that I’m feeling is my incision. She said, “Okay. Do you think that’s what is happening?” I remember before I could even think about it any further, I had another huge contraction that brought me to my knees. I remember my mom holding me against her and trying to support me. It was really hard for my husband and my mom to see me in so much pain. Although they were really supportive, I know that took a lot out of them as well. So, I remember that. I remember my mom holding me.

That obviously was not what was happening. As far as the incision rupturing, that wasn’t what was happening, but that fear is still there, even though it’s a small percentage. You have to choose to believe that it is okay and that the percentage of that happening is very small, and so that’s probably not going to be what happens.

At that point, I got on the bed because my midwife said, “Would you like to start trying to push?” I’m like, “Yes,” because what I had been told up to that point by a lot of women was, “It feels so much better to push because it’s like you were able to do something with that pain.” I was like, “Yes. Yes. I want to get on the bed and do that.” 

I got up on the bed and that’s when it got really crazy for me. This is where, Kim, I could probably use some of your perspective because being in transition-- people can tell you how intense it is, but until you are in it, I don’t think you can really understand what that feels like. I remember saying, “I can’t do this.” I said, “I can’t.”

Kimberly: I think a lot of your pain too, just from my observation-- it does feel good for a lot of women to push, but if I remember correctly, you had a bit of a cervical lip that they were trying to get you to push past and that can definitely be pretty painful to try to be pushing past a cervical lip. So, I think that’s why yours maybe felt a little different, and of course, is going to give a different sensation that you weren’t expecting.

Harmony: Yeah. I know that my hips were in constant pain, which I guess was just them spreading. My midwife would say, “That’s your baby. Your baby is trying to come down,” because I was like, “Oh, my hips. I can’t do this. I need somebody to push on my hips.” I felt like I was out of control. It felt like there was a lot of noise in my head, which I realized was in my head later as I watched some video back. It was pretty quiet and calm, but in my head, it was like everybody was talking. I was screaming. It was like my perspective was off. 

When you are in transition, it’s like you are in your own world. That was what was scary for me was when I started going, “I need you guys to take me to the hospital. I can’t do this.” I remember people saying, “No. No, you’ve got this. You can do this. Harmony, he is almost here. His head is right here. You can push him out.” That is so, so important to have a team of people that believe in you.

Kimberly: I think your husband reminding you, “Nope. This is what you told me you wanted. You told me if you said you wanted to go to the hospital that you didn’t really mean it.” I think him reminding you of that was really pivotal.

Harmony: Yeah, I did. I said to him, “I need you to understand how important this is to me. Right now, I know I can do it, but when I am in labor, I probably won’t feel like I can do it. So, I need you to say to me, ‘No. You can do this and I am going to help you get through this.’” He said exactly that. He said, “I remember saying to you that you may be mad at me right now, but I am just doing what you told me to do, and so, I need you to reach inside you and push him out.”

Kimberly: When you first said that you wanted to go to the hospital because you didn’t feel like you could do it anymore, from the other side, we could see his head when you were pushing so we knew how close you were.

Harmony: That’s the thing was like, I couldn’t see anything, obviously. One of the midwives actually offered to put a mirror. She said, “Look. Sometimes this helps.” I was like, “No, no. I don’t want to see it,” because I think there was part of me that felt like if I saw the baby’s head coming out-- I was already so overstimulated with what was happening, I was afraid it was going to send me over the edge on what was happening.

She was like, “Okay, okay. No problem. You don’t have to look.” I felt bad because I felt like-- maybe I didn’t yell, but I talked very strongly during the labor to some people. I said to her, “No, I don’t want to see it.” She was like, “Okay, no problem. You don’t have to look.” Then, at one point, people were saying, “Push, Harmony. You need to push.” I was like, “Stop telling me to push. I am pushing.” I wouldn’t normally talk to people that way. I said that to Kim. I felt so bad because I was talking to people that I barely knew that way and being very forceful, but you just don’t have it in you to think about your wording or your tone of voice.

At one point, they told me to reach down and feel his head because it was coming out. I reached down, but it did not feel like a head. I know that sounds really weird, but it didn’t feel very round, and so I guess that’s because he was trying to come through. The midwife assistant and I laughed about it because she said, “Yeah, you reached down and you went, ‘what is that?’” They were like, “It’s his head. It’s his head. He is trying to come out.” I think there was part of me that felt like he was never going to come out. I kept trying to push, but I was like, “Man. Why is this taking so long?”

At one point, my mom had to leave the room because I was in so much pain. She just said, “I had to leave for a second.” She actually got sick in the bathroom because it was so intense. Again, I don’t know what it was like from your perspective, Kim, but that may have just been--

Kimberly: Your mom was definitely struggling, but she was fantastic. I had one hip laying on the bed across the bed shoving on one hip and she was in there shoving on the other. You could tell she was ready for it to be over for you and you could tell how strong she was feeling your emotions.

Harmony: Yeah. I mean, totally supportive, but just trying to hang in there, I think. It’s just hard to see your child in pain. I even felt my husband at one point while I was pushing, I felt him start to shake. I looked up and he was crying. I thought that was because, “Oh, the baby’s head. He’s crying because the baby’s head is out.” But he told me later that he was crying-- he was like, “No. You were just in so much pain. It was really hard for me to see that.”

What’s cool about that too is, I feel like it bonded us even more in our marriage for him to see what I was doing to try to get the baby here. At one point I reached down again. That’s when I started to feel what is described as the ring of fire. I felt sharp, sharp, sharp, sharp pain in my vagina. I reached down and then I felt, “Oh, that is his head for sure. His head is almost out.” 

That was what gave me the strength that I needed to feel that we were almost there. I pushed and I pushed. 

Really quickly, I remember somebody saying, “Okay. Get on your hands and knees.” I did that as best I could. I felt a bunch of people help put me over on my hands and knees on the bed. And then, I was told to push some more and then all of a sudden, I felt the pressure go away and I knew. I remember in the video I said, “Is he here? He came out?” and he had. He had come out. I turned around and saw him. 

I’m sorry. I am getting emotional. That moment was probably one of the best moments of my life to see him there and know that I had done it, that I had my VBAC, and that first of all, I was out of that pain that felt like I was just in this pain spiral that I couldn’t get out of. But that now, I had actually done it and he was here. That was one of the best moments of my life-- just being able to hold him and know that I had this accomplishment and that he was here, and safe. My husband was very emotional about it. Everybody’s crying in the video.

My mother-in-law and my mother were both there and got to witness that. My mom has said to me later, “I never had really seen a baby coming out of a vagina.” That was interesting to be able to know that was a new experience for her too. It was just a really wonderful moment. Afterwards, my daughter got to come in and get in the bed with us and see him. All of that, I have a video. 

It was really wonderful to feel like I could have let fear dictate that moment. I could have tried to play it safe, which, for me-- and I am just speaking for me. For me, it would have been playing it safe to choose to birth someplace else because I was scared. But I chose to birth where I birthed because I wanted to have an untouched VBAC that could just allow my body to do it. I didn’t know how hard it was going to be if I’m being honest with you. I did not know that it was going to be as hard as it was. I still can’t believe that I did it, but I did. 

I’m really glad that I didn’t just let fear take that away from me, that I got to have that wonderful moment when I pushed him out, and I got to have my daughter there, and see my husband see his baby for the first time on his chest in an environment that wasn’t medical, which-- for me, it was just a different experience than my previous birth, which is okay. Like I said, that was our story. The C-section with my daughter was still wonderful to have her on my chest and everything like that, but that was just a different experience that I got to have with my son.

So, yeah. I mean, I guess the number one thing that I would say is how important it is to build a team of people that believe in you and believe in VBAC 100%. That was part of why I was able to go through this pregnancy completely and not be rushed into a deadline going into labor or feeling like it needed to be controlled. It just was. It was what it was. 

It was like I hadn’t even had a C-section before in how I was treated if that makes sense. It was just like, “Yeah. We are going to let you go through this pregnancy.” At the birth center, they believed that I could do it and my midwife like I said, was wonderful. I never felt along the way from anybody that they thought that it was going to go south. They all just believed that I could do it. 

And when it came time for me to go into transition, and pushing, and I didn’t think I could do it anymore, it was really important that I had the people in that room. Everybody in that room was like, “No. You can do this.” It’s so important because you can’t necessarily see the finish line when you are in a lot of pain and it’s really intense. All you can think about is that and it’s our natural inclination to just be like, “How can I make this stop? I need an epidural,” but that wasn’t an option for me because I was at a birth center and that’s part of why I chose to birth in the birth center because I wanted to try to avoid interventions.

So, that’s pretty much my story. I don’t know if Kim wants to say anything else. I was interested to hear what her perspective was when they told me to get on my hands and knees because you could see things, probably, that I couldn’t see in that moment.

Kimberly: Yeah, so I was down by your hip pushing and I could see. You had birthed his head and he had a bit of shoulder dystocia. That’s when Sally started to move and I told you to flip over to your hands and knees because I knew that’s what it was going to take to get baby’s shoulder dislodged. And you were great. A lot of moms are like, “What? There is a baby’s head between my legs. How am I supposed to move?” 

You did fantastic and that’s exactly what it took. It was quick. Stories like yours are exactly why I am passionate about VBAC. I was honored to get to be a part of your experience and I have a new friend, just simply.

Harmony: Thank you. Yeah, me too. I couldn’t have done it without you. I couldn’t have done it without anybody there because I needed that extra push when it came-- no pun intended. But I did need that extra push. I did need that from everybody else to tell me they could see the perspective and go, “No. You’ve got this. His head is almost out. I know that you feel like you can’t, but you can do this.” 

I’m just so thankful. I’m so thankful for everybody in the room and so thankful for Kim. I’m so thankful for the birth center and I’m so thankful for my midwife and the assistant. There was another midwife there. And my mom, and my mother-in-law, and my husband, and how they were in it with me. They didn’t say, “Okay, yeah. We probably need to go to the hospital at this point,” because I was in pain. My husband said, “I wanted to do that, but when we would take your blood pressure, it was fine. When we would take his heart rate, he was fine. And so, I was like, this is what she told me to do and so I am just going to keep pushing her through it.”

That’s pretty much the story. I’m sorry if it was too long.

Julie: No, it was great.

Meagan: No, you are awesome. I loved that you two were able to bounce off. Where you couldn’t remember, she-- it was really cool.

Julie: Super fun.

Harmony: Yeah. I do remember trying to move and feeling like, “Oh, it feels like there’s something really big stuck down there.” And there was.

Julie: There was.

Meagan: Oh, a baby’s head. No big deal.

Harmony: I feel like I can’t move, but I did move. I got over on my hands and knees somehow. Yeah, I didn’t know that his shoulder was stuck. But, they got him out.

Julie: That’s awesome.

Harmony: He was 8 pounds, 2 ounces, so a full pound heavier than my daughter.

Meagan: Isn’t it crazy how that works?

Harmony: I know. My mom and I were talking about it and she was like, “Yeah, I don’t know.” With me, she had me vaginally. My brothers too, but with me, it was during the time when-- now, I think they can give you an epidural basically right before you push, but the way it used to be was like-- she was too far along. So when she got to the hospital, they were like, “Sorry. It’s too late.” 

She just looked at my dad and said, “I can’t do this.” You know, because she had-- she was like, “I can’t do this. I can’t.” But she had had me vaginally and naturally, and she said, “I don’t remember feeling that pain in my hips, but that’s because you were my last baby.” So, I don’t know if for me it was because it was literally my first vaginal birth and he was pretty big. I think his head was 14.75 inches, and his shoulders were big, and his abdomen was almost as big around as his head, but I don’t know if that’s why I felt so much pain centralized in my hips.

Julie: Definitely could be.

Meagan: Could have been.

Julie: bigger babies, a little more pressure down there.

Harmony: Yeah, a little bit more.

Julie: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It was definitely a lot of fun to have both of you on. 

If you are interested in becoming a VBAC Doula yourself, then go ahead and check out our courses at thevbaclink.com/shop and if you are interested, we also have a parent’s course that will make you and your doula the perfect powerhouse team-- confident and educated going into the birth space in order for you to have the very best, empowering birth experience that you possibly can.

Meagan: And if you are looking for a doula, go to our website, thevbaclink.com/findadoula, and find your state or your country because we have doulas in lots of other countries as well. Check it out and see if there is a doula near you. I promise you, these guys are amazing. These doulas are absolutely phenomenal.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

What if tiny, subtle movements during labor could give your baby extra centimeters of space in your pelvis? Those centimeters just might make all the difference in getting your VBAC.

Brittany Sharpe McCollum is an expert on educating women about pelvic biomechanics. This episode is packed with valuable, mind-blowing information that will put you, the laboring woman, back in control of your labor and ready to have an exhilarating birth.  

“It doesn’t matter if somebody is birthing with an epidural or without an epidural. They should come out of their experience feeling like they did something amazing. It doesn’t matter if somebody has a Cesarean or vaginal birth. They should come out of it feeling like they did something awesome rather than feeling like something happened to them.”

Today’s topics include: 

- Your pelvis shape and optimal fetal positioning

- Subtle movements during labor

- Closed knee pushing

- 5/4/3 Rule of Movement

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents

Brittany Sharpe McCollum’s website: Blossoming Bellies Birth

Blossoming Bellies Birth Instagram

Baby Got VBAC

Free Webinars

The VBAC Link T-Shirt Shop

This episode is sponsored by our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. Together, Meagan and Julie have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today.

Interested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Julie: Welcome to The VBAC Link podcast. This is Julie and Megan with you today and we are really thrilled about the guest that we have today. We have Brittany Sharpe McCollum who is a pelvic dynamics specialist. We first learned about Brittany when we were at the Evidence Based Birth® conference. Meagan attended one of her workshops there and instantly fell in love.

Meagan: Like, madly in love.

Julie: Don’t tell Meagan this, but she is kind of obsessed.

We are really excited to have her on today because a lot of Cesareans happen because of big babies, small pelvis. We have all heard it. If we had a quarter for every time we heard that excuse for a Cesarean, we would be rich women. We are going to talk about that. We are going to talk about that today with Brittany. 

Brittany is a childbirth educator. She is a doula and a pelvic biomechanics educator. Her work with expectant families centers around supporting people and exploring their options, developing their preferences, and navigating the tools and information necessary to make them a reality. In her trainings for birth professionals, she takes a research-based, multidisciplinary approach to exploring pelvic dynamics in relation to labor and facilitating the understanding of movement as a benefit to medicated and unmedicated labors.

Guys, the things that she does can help you whether you have an epidural, whether you are unmedicated, home birth, hospital birth, birth center-- anywhere and everywhere you give birth. We are going to have some really, really awesome tips for you by the end of this episode, so get your pen and paper out. This is going to be one you want to take notes on.

Julie: But before we do that, Meagan has a review of the week for us.

Meagan: Yes, I do. This one is going to be one of those episodes that you likely listen to and then have to go relisten to it and relisten to it. You are going to learn things every single time you listen. I am so excited for this review, too. It is from drFL0W and the subject is “Phenomenal.” So, thank you.

It says, “Meagan and Julie are amazing! I love the knowledge they share on their podcast and their enthusiasm for helping women have amazing VBACs.”

Thank you, drFL0W.

Julie: Do you know what? Dr. Flow, Flow Chiropractic.

Meagan: Flow Chiropractic!

Julie: Steven Roushar. I wonder. I bet.

Meagan: Dr. Flow. That makes sense.

Julie: I may have kind of made him write this review at a chiropractor appointment. I asked him to and he said he did it on Google and Apple Podcasts.

Meagan: Well, then that’s his one. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. We love him.

Julie: Thanks, Steven.

Meagan: But yeah, seriously, this podcast is going to be filled with tons of knowledge. So, gear up. Buckle in and get ready to roll.

Julie: Do you want a VBAC but don’t know where to start? It’s easy to feel like we need to figure it all out on our own. That’s what we used to do, and it was the loneliest and most ineffective thing we have ever done. That’s why Meagan and I created our signature course, How to VBAC: The Ultimate Preparation Course for Parents, which you can find at thevbaclink.com. It is the most comprehensive VBAC preparation course in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced, video course. 

Together, Meagan and I have helped over 800 parents get the birth that they wanted, and we are ready to help you too. Head on over to thevbaclink.com to find out more and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there.

Julie: Alrighty. I absolutely love what Meagan said before our intro. Buckle up. It’s going to be a bumpy ride. But do you know what? It’s the best woman to take a bumpy ride with because Brittany is going to help us get our pelvises ready for the bumpy ride of childbirth. How was that? Was that a little bit too corny?

Meagan: There you go. See, and in my head, I am looking at it as we are going to be going full speed and your mind is going to be like, “Whoa!”

Julie: Alright. Well, Meagan, you set this up. So, I want to let you drive the car. Is that okay? I am going to pop in with oogly-ness wherever it is appropriate.

Meagan: Sure. Well, I just love Brittany. I loved her the second that I technically met her in Lexington. You guys should have seen this room. It was this little conference-type classroom in a hotel. We were shoulder to shoulder. It never would’ve happened during COVID because we were definitely not social distancing. We were packed. Everybody wanted to come and learn what she had to say. We only got one tiny little hour and, of course, she had this big line of people to ask her questions after. As soon as I left, I told Julie, I said, “I need more. I need more.”

Julie: Yes, she was. Even now when I am at a birth I’m like, “Hold on. Remind me. Is it knees in or knees out? Is it asymmetrical movement or symmetrical movement for this stage?”

Meagan: We are going to learn so much. I was so fortunate even during to COVID to be able to attend one of her workshops live this year in 2020. She just continues to amaze me and when Julie says I am obsessed, I really am obsessed with her. I love her. I can’t get enough of her and I’m so excited that she is here with us today.

Meagan: First of all, I have this one thing that I would like to talk about because this is something that I personally get stuck on myself, even as a doula. As a doula, I was trained this. So when I learned about this, I was like, what? If you have ever heard that your baby has to be in a LOA position, then you really want to turn the volume up right now because you are going to learn some stuff.

Julie: Lightbulb. Lightbulb.

Meagan: During my pregnancy with Webster, I did not sit on a couch or a chair other than my actual car literally the entire time. So, all the way up until 40 weeks and 5 days, I did not sit on a chair, a couch, nothing. I sat on the ground. I didn’t even sit on the birthing ball. I sat on the ground and was tipping my pelvis up, and sitting so uncomfortably that it hurt my stomach and my back. I killed myself. And guess what? My baby was OP. He was posterior. I was doing all the things to get this baby in LOA because we had to have this baby in LOA and he was posterior.

After taking Brittany‘s course, I realized that’s how he needed to be. Then we worked through labor, worked with my pelvis and him, and got him where he needed to be. So, my first topic of discussion that I would love Brittany to touch on is position of the baby and how yes it matters, but how there is so much that we can work with.

Brittany: Thank you so much. That introduction, oh my gosh. I would love for you to introduce me everywhere I go like that.

Julie: We will come with you.

Meagan: I will totally come with you. If I could be a fly on the wall in your life, that would be a dream come true.

Brittany: My goodness. That was crazy. I want you in my back pocket to boost my self-esteem every day.

Julie: We’re there. We’re there. Just tell us.

Brittany: I am so honored that you feel this way. We have only met in person twice and I am just incredibly honored that you feel that way and that I have had such an impact on your excitement about positioning in the pelvis.

Meagan: But not even just me. You have had an impact on my clients' births.

Brittany: Well that I think is where the real importance of this information comes into play is that once you have these seeds planted, then we go out and share this information. We use it and we share it with providers. We share it with nurses. We share it with clients and then it spreads, and it starts to infiltrate the entire childbearing reproductive care system and hopefully make some serious change.

That’s why, like you were talking about the workshops that I teach-- that’s why I love them so much because even if you have a workshop with 20 or 30 people in it, there’s a potential to impact hundreds of births. I think that’s really amazing.

Oh my gosh. That Evidence Based Birth® conference was incredible. That conference was phenomenal. That room, when you said-- we wouldn’t have been able to do that in COVID. Absolutely. We would not have been able to pack in there if it was COVID time. I am happy that we are able to get that workshop in before COVID.

Meagan: Me too.

Brittany: Yeah, yeah. So, you had mentioned LOA. Let me talk a little bit about that. Maybe I should give a little bit of a background on what I do first. When you introduced me-- I am a pelvic biomechanics educator, a child educator, a birth doula, and when I am talking about pelvic biomechanics, what I am really referring to are the laws that govern the push and pull that occurs within the body to change the bonds of the pelvis and change the space between the bones of the pelvis, particularly during labor and birth. So, that’s what biomechanics are-- these biological laws that govern the effects of movement in the body.

Then, I take these ideas and incorporate them into understanding how we can change space for the baby in the pelvis and encourage a baby to continue to descend and rotate. The goal in everything that I do is, of course, to decrease unnecessary intervention because when we have unnecessary intervention, we tend to have a whole lot more risk than benefit. As anyone knows who does childbirth education and works with pregnant people, it is a constant weighing out of benefit and risk with every choice that is made.

But anyway, that’s really important to me, is decreasing unnecessary intervention. But another really important part of what I do is restoring the autonomy of the birth process back to the person giving birth. It doesn’t matter how that person is giving birth. It doesn’t matter if it is a medicated birth.

Julie: Yeah, absolutely.

Brittany: Well that could be a whole other hour-long podcast. But it doesn’t matter if somebody is birthing with an epidural or without an epidural. They should come out of their experience feeling like they did something amazing. It doesn’t matter if somebody has a Cesarean or a vaginal birth. They should come out of it feeling like they did something awesome rather than feeling like something happened to them. 

Yeah, so it makes no difference how someone is giving birth. They should feel like they have done something awesome in that experience. And then, I feel like that then translates into how they parent and how confident they feel moving forward through their entire parenting journey. That impacts the relationships that they have within their family dynamic. I mean, we carry our births with us for the rest of our lives. So, if we can help people to feel more empowered in their experience, that’s a really amazing thing.

So, that’s my goal. A lot of what I do focuses on really two things: the importance of movement in all births and the importance, the opportunity for informed consent and refusal. To actually answer your question or provide some insight into your question about positioning of the baby, I can offer a little bit of background first.

I definitely talk with my clients in pregnancy about the importance of aligning their bodies. So, Meagan, you had mentioned you didn’t sit on the couch your entire pregnancy and for a lot of people, I think particularly people who maybe have had a past certain experience that they want to have differently the next time, they’ll do extreme things like not sit on a couch at all.

What I love to do is offer people modifications for their everyday things that can help them to be better aligned when they are preparing for labor rather than giving someone a to-do and not-to-do list. I try really hard to encourage people to be aware of how they are holding their body and how they are balancing the weight of their body and whether they are getting up to move frequently or getting stuck in positions for a long period of time. The things that I talk about with my clients prenatally to encourage alignment are not geared towards getting a baby positioned a specific way, which kind of ties into what you were saying about, “Oh no. What if my baby is not LOA?”

What the most current anthropological research tells us is that most people have variations of four basic pelvic shapes. What is so interesting is that according to the research that we have, which we could question this research to an extent because, how good could this research be? But, according to the research that we have, about two of the four pelvic shapes-- again, we are thinking about variations of pelvic shape. But, two of the four pelvic shapes actually favor a baby moving into the pelvis in a right side-lying, posterior position. Meaning that, for those people that have pelvic shapes similar to the pelvises that favor those positions, their babies need to be positioned that way in order for them to start their journey descending and rotating through the pelvis. So, when we encourage babies to be positioned one specific way, we discount a significant number of people‘s pelvises that will not favor a baby being positioned a specific way.

Julie: Yes. Well, and I see that so many times where my clients, or maybe they are even looking transverse, but that is just the way that the baby has to enter their specific pelvis shape. And I know that maybe we will touch on this a little bit sooner, but the more we interbreed with each other, the less distinct the pelvis shapes are becoming. So, there are not necessarily four distinct pelvic types anymore, but there are many variations of those.

That is why after Meagan came back and told me all the things that she learned from your workshop, I have been focusing more on helping my clients create space in their pelvis, loosening up those pelvic ligaments, their connective tissues, the tuberosacral ligament or is it sacrotuberal? I don’t remember.

Brittany: Sacrotuberous.

Julie: Yeah, and just creating looseness, and freedom of movement, and flexibility rather than focusing on a specific position for baby to be in. Right?

Brittany: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. I am a non-clinical provider. I am a doula and a childbirth educator. I don’t do soft tissue releases or things like that. That is not my wheelhouse. Everything that I do in classes and workshops is all non-clinical information, education-based stuff that then people can continue to share. So all of that stuff, that soft tissue release-- that is amazing stuff also. That is complementary to everything that I do and that is definitely something that people should be exploring and seeking out resources for in pregnancy.

A lot of the things that I like to suggest are simple bodily movements or changes in ways that they do everyday things, which I think of more as alignment. I think it is a complement to soft tissue release work, and chiropractic care, and all of that. We want to utilize as many resources available to us as possible so that we can best prepare our bodies to give birth in a way that is healthy, and may be efficient and really positive too.

So yeah, all of that stuff is really important. It is so much less about getting the baby positioned a specific way because no one knows what pelvic shape they have unless they have had x-ray pelvimetry, which most people haven’t. Even if they have had x-ray pelvimetry, it is unlikely that they would have looked at anthropological research to compare that to variations of pelvic shape. I have had experience with clients who have had x-ray pelvimetry in the past and still they don’t know what variation of pelvic shape they have. 

My goal is to really take information that is more tangible and usable rather than saying, “Theoretically, I think your pelvis might be like this, so your baby should be like this.” No way. I don’t know what pelvic shape someone has. They don’t know what pelvic shape they have. Their provider does not know what pelvic shape they have. So, rather than focus on getting a baby specifically positioned a certain way, I like to give people the tools to allow their body, like you said, to create space as much as possible, so that then their baby can find the most ideal position to move through the pelvis that the baby is working with.

Meagan: Exactly. I feel like that is so powerful. To me, anyway. I was like, “What? Wait, whoa. Okay, I love it.”

Brittany: Yeah. One thing that is so interesting is that posterior babies get a really bad rap. In the longer workshops that I teach, we go into a lot of the history of this with obstetrical bias and things like that, but I think it’s really important to recognize that as soon as a provider-- and this has to do with really honestly, in my opinion, inadequate training when it comes to understanding bodily mechanics. I’m not saying that for all providers. Many providers seek out this information on their own, but conventional training does not include an anthropological look at pelvic shape or anything. But anyway, I am digressing.

My point was that we have all, especially as birth professionals, probably been in the same situation, or maybe someone as a birthing person has been, where a provider comes in and maybe does an internal exam or does a quick palpation of the belly and they say, “Oh. This baby is posterior. Well, we will give it a little more time and see if we can get the baby to turn.” And what happens then? The energy in the room deflates. I think of that as such loaded words. Like, yeah. Sure. The provider is saying they will give it a bit more time. But really, what the provider is saying is that “I already don’t think you can have a vaginal birth.”

Meagan: Yes, and something is wrong. They are saying, “Oh. Your baby is posterior.”

Julie: And what does that do for hormone levels? Right?

Brittany: Totally.

Julie: Adrenaline levels rise, oxytocin levels crash, and then what happens? A need for interventions like Pitocin to get contractions stronger and all of those things. Oh my gosh, yes.

Brittany: Yep. And then also, that seed is planted in support people that this is not likely to wind up in a vaginal birth and how does that affect the way the support people provide support?

Julie: Because then they try and fix it right?

Brittany: Say that one more time. I didn’t hear you.

Julie: Sorry. Then we try to fix it, so we get our rebozos out and we start doing all these different types of movements that we learn in our doula trainings and everything like that. Our moms are like, “Oh my gosh. I’ve got to do all of this work to get my baby in a better position,” and providers or support people are like, “Okay. Well, something needs to be fixed. Something needs to be fixed,” when it might not necessarily be that something needs to be fixed. It might just be the way that that baby has to move through the pelvis.

Brittany: Yeah, and the focus shifts from being physical and emotional support for the laboring process and, just like you said, focuses on, “Now, we have to fix something. Something is wrong.” For other support people like a partner or a family member that is there, now that seed is planted that this is probably or possibly going to end up in a Cesarean. It is now making that support person “okay” with that idea, which then means they may be less likely to advocate for things like more time.

So, when we have a provider that does not fully understand how babies rotate and descend, why some babies are posterior, and how that is totally okay, and when we have the tools to work with that then it is awesome. When we have a provider that doesn’t have that knowledge, we potentially impact not only the outcome vaginal or cesarean, but we also potentially impact how someone feels about their birth.

We have taken the power away from that laboring person and that is really, I feel like that is really detrimental. I think what we really need to do is continue to restore that power to the laboring person. So, a big part of what I really emphasize is helping people understand not how a baby should or should not be positioned, but instead to understand how they can move their body in a way that works with where their baby is in the pelvis to create space for the baby. Then, trust in that process that the contractions, and the pressure on the pelvic floor, and the movements of the baby are going to work together to help encourage efficient labor progress.

So, yeah. It’s a lot of information.

Meagan: Yes, but powerful. Powerful information. So good.

Julie: Well, and I think if we can change the way we think about birth and think about baby positioning. I think the biggest disrupter of birth is the mindset of the birthing person. If we can just say, “It’s okay. Let’s see how the next couple of hours go because this might just be the way your baby needs to come out.” 

If we can set that tone instead of, “Let’s start doing sifting. Shake the apples. This is really fun. It will get you laughing. We can do asymmetrical movements,” although I don’t know if that is good. I still can’t remember which way asymmetrical movements are good for. You know what I mean? If we can step away from fixing things and be like, “Alright, that’s okay. It looks like your baby needs this, this, and that.” If we can change the conversation about that, then it will do so much good for balancing out the hormones that are part of birth.

Brittany: Yeah, and I tell people all of the time that the same positions-- me, personally as a doula, the same positions that I’m going to suggest to work through a potential positioning issue are the things that I’m going to suggest to prevent it in the first place. I don’t have these magic tools to pull out in certain situations. My goal is to help us recognize the wide variation of normal in terms of how babies descend and rotate, and to have a toolbox full of ideas for encouraging that continued descent and rotation and progress.

It’s not so much like, “Let’s have things just keep moving along. Everything is fine. Oh my god, everything is not fine. Now we have to jump in.” It’s more like, “Let’s incorporate movement throughout the entire laboring process so that we can continue to work with descent and rotation.” One of the things, too, that I think is really important-- a lot of times, I’m thinking of a few clients that I have had where they are really into the idea of movement, but they are also like, “I am going to be really tired.” And so, I try to emphasize that when I’m talking about movement, I am not necessarily referring to walking up and down the stairs sideways 20 times, and then doing a whole bunch of lunges, and then doing curb walking. I am not referring to all of those things, although sometimes I am.

Subtle movements can be really impactful as well. Even something as simple as shifting how far apart the legs are from one another, or standing in a staggered leg position instead of with your feet evenly in line with each other, or something as simple as somebody is sitting in a semi-reclined position with the soles of the feet together, and then sitting in a semi-reclined position with the leg draped over the peanut ball. We can take really simple, subtle little movements and make really big opportunities for descent and rotation.

So, although I do love really big dramatic movements sometimes, I also recognize that labor is exhausting. My goal is not to make people more tired in labor, but instead for them to realize that simple, tiny movements throughout the whole process are what helps to keep things going.

Meagan: Definitely. Just last week, I was at a birth. Second-time mom and starting in a really good position. 3 centimeters, favorable cervix, whatever. She was going in for an induction. The baby was really, really high. She was making progress, but the baby just wasn’t coming down, wasn’t coming down. And so, we started doing these ever so slight movements every five contractions, and seriously, it was dramatic.

Brittany: Yay!

Meagan: The last two positions, the nurses-- in fact, they pulled out their phones and pulled up your Instagram because I was like, “You have to, yeah.” Because they were like, “Where did you learn that?” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I just have to tell you.” I couldn’t even get into it as deep as I wanted to because I needed to respect the space of the room, because she was in labor. She was 10 centimeters. 

But anyway, she was hanging out at 9 centimeters. For a second-time birth, you don’t expect to hang out at 9 centimeters, but sometimes that happens. This baby just wasn’t quite low enough and engaged. Anyways, we ended up moving ever so slightly. We did knees together because baby was getting lower, so we were doing both. Alternating, right? Then the last one, I was like, “If you could, even just for three,” I said. “I just want you to lift your foot up and we are just going to do this little lunge thing,” and she was like, “Okay”.

So we did that, and I was like, “Okay. Now I want you to put your knees back together.” She did that and it was two contractions. She was like, “Oh, yeah. He is coming. He is coming!”

Julie: Oh my gosh!

Meagan: I was like, “Boom. Yeah!”

Julie: That’s amazing.

Meagan: The nurses were watching this happen and you could see them. There was one nurse in training. She was like, “I need to learn all of that.” I am like, “Yes, you do.” One nurse was like, “So, is this just a Spinning Babies®?” And I was like, “No. You need to come here. Give me your phone. This is it.”

Julie: You know that is exactly how it went down because I can see Meagan doing that.

Meagan: It is legitimately how it went down. But then they were like, “We can’t let you touch our phone because of COVID.” I’m like, “Okay. Here it is.” I pulled out my phone and I set it aside on the bed as I continued to support. I said, “Go like her right now.” 

Seriously, you guys. It was dramatic. Yeah, it took a minute. Because it was seriously like, every five contractions we were changing it up ever so slightly, and then she was like, “Boom. He is coming.” Sure enough, he did. She pushed this cute little baby out so well in such control. Even the doctor was like, “Whoa. This control is incredible.” I think it was just because the baby was set up to come out in the perfect position for that baby.

Brittany: Yeah. It sounds like you did a lot of restoring that power back to the person who was laboring, which gives her that confidence to be like, “Yeah. I can totally birth this baby.”

Meagan: Yeah. She was questioning. She was like, “I don’t think I can do this anymore.” She got an epidural at 8 centimeters last time and I was like, “No. You are doing this and you can do this. It’s amazing, and you are going to do great.”

Julie: That’s awesome.

Meagan: She just kept doing that. And I said, “Okay. We are going to take it one at a time. I don’t want you to think about the next one after this.” It was beautiful and I loved it. I was like, “Yeah. That is Brittany for you.” She was with me.

Brittany: Aw, that’s awesome.

Meagan: I just love you. I love what you were saying. It doesn’t have to be dramatic. It is hard. Labor can be exhausting. Standing up or moving your whole body over to the other side can just seem daunting and so sometimes we are like, “No. I would rather just stay here,” which isn’t bad. It’s not bad.

Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. Right. I mean, it can be something like-- let’s say somebody is in a side-lying position. They could be lying with the peanut ball between their knees and then there are five contractions in that position, and then we take the peanut ball out and they straighten out their top leg. That’s a position change. That makes space in the pelvis. It changes space. It’s not always about creating the space where the baby needs it, although the majority of the time that is what I am thinking about, but it is also just about changing the space in general.

Movement is more important than any specific position. So again, when I am telling people if there is something to allow to guide your labor, movement is so important. It doesn’t have to be crazy movement. It doesn’t have to be remembering all of the specific positions to do at different points depending on where the baby is. It can be as simple as remembering to move.

It doesn’t have to be only in unmedicated births. That is such a myth that is out there. Once someone gets an epidural, they are limited to lying on their back or lying on their side. There are a million things that you can do in the bed. Pretty much any position you can do standing or on the floor, you can modify in some way to do on the bed.

Meagan: Really though, yeah.

Brittany: It is really important to recognize that movement is an optimal part of all births. The reason I say that is because movement helps to encourage progress in labor. This is all research-based. Movement helps to encourage progress in labor. Movement helps with comfort in labor. That’s mainly people that are birthing unmedicated. But comfort in labor, progress in labor, and then also, it helps with oxygenation of the baby. It helps to keep everybody healthy and happy. That is a really important part of it too.

That’s why movement is something that I really feel like clinical providers can, may, should jump on board with because not only is it about progress in labor and comfort, but it’s also about optimizing outcomes for the laboring person and the baby. I think that’s a really important goal for clinical providers is to make sure the process is safe. When we encourage movement, we give the baby more opportunity to make subtle shifts and changes which allows the umbilical cord to move around more freely and helps to oxygenate the baby.

I also love to say this too because I think this is often an overlooked part about the importance of movement, but prenatal education about movement and labor can help support people to be more invested in the process. It gives them something to do as support people. It gives them something they can offer and suggest throughout the process, and it helps support people to feel more useful in labor which is important for them feeling positive about the birth experience. When they are more invested and they feel more positive, then it decreases anxiety and allows for that great hormonal release in labor for the laboring person too.

It’s about everyone in the laboring room. Movement is just such an important part.

Meagan: It really is. When you talk about prenatally too, I feel the familiarity. If they have been in that position before labor has begun, they are more comfortable trying that position in labor.

Julie: It will be something that they go to by default, too. It will be something that they naturally go to.

Meagan: Birth workers out there, if you teach this in your prenatal courses or your meetings and things like that-- I don’t know if you realize that there is so much power behind that because it is going to help that couple. It is going to help that birthing couple to be okay and comfortable in trying new things.

Okay, I am going into the “knees all the way back, spread open-wide in your armpits” thing. We have always seen in all the movies. Literally, where are your knees? When you see someone pushing in Friends or a movie-- I’m thinking of Rachel in Friends. Your feet are up in the sky. Your knees are in your armpits. Your head is trying to touch your belly button. Seriously, this is the position, right? And so, when we are like, “Hey, so I actually need you to close your knees.” They’re like, “What? You want me to do what?”

Then their provider is like, “No, no, no, no. We don’t want to do that. Why would we do that?” But there is so much to it. And so, if you can, educate them before, and show them, and teach them. Do the dot trick from lovely Gina who we just love from mamastefit. Do the dot trick and show them in their prenatals. “Look at what your pelvis is doing,” and they are like, “Oh, okay.” 

So, when you are like, “I want you to put your knees together and your feet out,” they are not thinking we are smoking something. They’re like, “Do you want me to keep my baby in or get my baby out?” You’re like, “Actually, we want you to get your baby out. We are going to help you do that by putting your knees together.”

Can we talk a little bit about that too? Maybe segue a little bit into closed knee pushing.

Brittany: Yes, that is one of my favorite topics. I actually did a webinar for ICEA for their virtual conference all on closed knee pushing. It was straight up, a half-hour just on closed knee pushing. It was so awesome.

Closed knee pushing is when we push with the knees closed. Honestly, it is less about the knees being closed, but more about the internal rotation of the thighs that happens when our knees are closer than our hips. This internal thigh rotation actually pulls out on the hips which opens up space side to side at the bottom of the pelvis, or at the pelvic outlet, which is where the baby is coming out. The way that I love to share this with especially pregnant people is to actually think about late pregnancy.

When you are 36, 38, 42 weeks pregnant, you are sitting on your birth ball. Maybe you are sitting on your couch or a chair. You’re sitting with your knees really far apart because that is what feels better. Our bodies are telling us in late pregnancy it feels better to sit with the knees far apart. Internally, what is happening when we sit with our knees far apart is external thigh rotation which opens the top of the pelvis, the inlet of the pelvis, which is what the baby is settling into in the last few weeks, or sometimes the last few days of pregnancy. And so, when we sit in late pregnancy with our knees really wide, not only does it feel better, but also inside, it’s giving the baby space at the top of the pelvis to settle in.

Now, if that is working at the end of pregnancy to help the babies settle into the top of the pelvis, why would we do the same position when the baby is at the bottom of the pelvis? It wouldn’t make sense to do the same thing when we are pushing a baby out versus when we are in late pregnancy encouraging baby to descend into the pelvis.

So, in late pregnancy, our bodies instinctually get into this wide-legged position. But also what I have found, especially when we have been in situations with really supportive providers, is that instinctually, when people are pushing their babies out, they do bring their knees together or they get into an asymmetrical position. People do not typically-- and this is my experience. People do not typically get into really wide-legged positions when they are pushing their babies out. They bring their needs together. 

Think about going to the bathroom. The next time you go to the bathroom, you’re sitting on the toilet. Think about how you’re positioning yourself. Probably knees together, maybe a little bit of asymmetry there. You’re just trying to allow that space for your bowel movement to come out. Same thing is happening.

Meagan: It might be the easiest poop you ever took. Just saying.

Julie: Alright, who is going to play around with new positioning next time she is sitting on the toilet? I don’t know about you. I totally am.

Meagan: I’m telling you.

Brittany: It is so important to connect this stuff to everyday life and to what our bodies are instinctually doing because when we do that, it restores that confidence. When we feel more confident then, even though every single image we have ever seen of birth in the movies has the knees far apart, even though a provider is like, “Oh, no. You have got to pull those knees far apart,” what we start to realize is from a biomechanical standpoint, pulling the knees apart actually doesn’t make sense. So, we need to tie this stuff into everyday life and into the end of pregnancy so that we start to see, “Oh. Well actually, our bodies know exactly what to do in labor.” We just have to be willing to tap into that and work with that.

Closed knee pushing is pretty awesome. It is something that you can do no matter what position you are in, whether you are in a standing position or side-lying position. You can even do it in a reclined position, all fours, and it is really instinctual. Again, going back to what I said earlier about how movement is more important than any specific position, I don’t think that we should be in one closed knee position for three hours. Then, it loses its benefit. But when we incorporate that into the different positions that we adapt to during the pushing part of labor, when we recognize that bringing the knees closer together and internally rotating the thighs creates space at the outlet, then we can put that into our toolbox of positions for pushing. Yeah, so closed knee pushing is all the rage right now.

Meagan: It really is. I really have witnessed it for a recent VBAC client of mine. She was pushing great. She was totally pushing great and baby was making good progress. You know how it is natural for them to come back in a little bit and come back out. He stopped coming out further. He would come out, go back in, come out, but never go that one step further. I love this midwife so much. I felt very, very comfortable saying, “Close your knees. Close your knees.” And that baby-- next push, boom. Way further, and then the next push was out.

Julie: Holy cow.

Meagan: It is just so cool to see. That was easy for me as a provider with someone that I had a good relationship with. I work with this midwife often and I could be like, “Close your knees.” But in a hospital setting with many providers and nurses who are unfamiliar, or even birth centers, or just in general, when we are with providers who are unfamiliar with this technique and the reason behind it, what would you say is a way-- because I would love for us-- obviously what you’re doing. You’re getting out there. You’re in the community. You’re educating. It is only going to spread. 

But how can we as people and as birth workers try to facilitate this even more in a position where the doctor is like, “Nope. Get those knees opened wide. Butt in the air!” What suggestions or advice would you give? Because as birthing people, we have the right to say, “This isn’t working for me. I want to try this.” But many times, we have a provider say, “Well now, if you really want me to be able to support your perineum and avoid tearing, then you need to be on this back. Or you need to be in this position so I can get to your perineum.” Well, but the thing is, guess what? If I close my knees and open my legs, I am pretty sure you could still get to my perineum if you really wanted to, and I don’t think you need to be up in my perineum. I am just saying here. What would you suggest as birth workers?

Julie: Wait. Can we just wait a minute? Hold on. I think we need to make a shirt that says, “Don’t be all up in my perineum.” For real.

Meagan: I love that.

Brittany: I would wear it. I would wear that shirt.

There are so many things that I want to touch on with what you said there. First, I will start with what you last said and then I will go back to the beginning. In terms of preserving the perineum, which I think is probably a goal for most people that are birthing vaginally, what we actually know about perineal tearing, and increasing or decreasing the likelihood of tearing, is that when the thighs are internally rotated, it actually can decrease the likelihood of tearing because the skin, the perineal area, is not stretched side to side. Instead, it’s given the opportunity to stretch more front to back. 

Although many babies do move into the pelvis posteriorly, most babies do wind up eventually rotating around to come out facing backwards. The crown of their head is right underneath the pubic bone there and they are facing backwards, which means the bigger area of their head is front to back, which means the perineum needs to be able to have more give front to back rather than being stretched side to side.

So, when we pull the knees closer together, we actually allow the skin to be stretched less side to side, which gives us the opportunity to stretch more front to back. Closing the knees or internally rotating the thighs helps to decrease the likelihood of tearing as well which is huge for people planning a vaginal birth.

Meagan: It really is.

Brittany: It really is.

Going back to what you said about providers that are maybe not so familiar with the idea or the concept of bringing their knees together for pushing, I think it really comes back to prenatal education. It is not just about educating about the biomechanics, but like you said, it is about educating people about their rights. It’s about educating. If they have a partner or a support person there with them that is not their doula, it’s also important to educate that person because that person is going to become a really big part of the advocacy in the laboring room.

So, when people realize they have the right to birth in whatever position that they choose and when they have the information to understand how to create more space within their pelvises--

Julie: --and have a supportive partner or doula that will advocate for them because when you are in the pushing stage, you are not always able to speak for yourself.

Brittany: Absolutely. If they have somebody else in their court there as well saying, “No, she is comfortable like this,” or, “No, she is not going to get into that position.” That can really help. It also provides a buffer for that laboring person to stay in the zone which is right where they need to be when they are pushing a baby out. I think prenatal education is a really, really important part of that.

Also, this might sound really silly but practice the conversation surrounding informed consent and refusal, and advocacy for your rights. Literally, have practice conversations with partners or with friends about what you would do in that moment. What words are you going to use in that moment? As a birthing person, what words are you going to use in that moment to let your provider know that you are not going to be on your back with your legs hiked far apart, or maybe you’ll be on your back with your legs hiked closer together, or whatever.

But practice those conversations ahead of time because it’s much easier when you have the language easily available than it is in the moment to try to come up with that. I think a lot of people in the moment wind up being in a situation mentally when they’re pushing their baby out where if they are faced with being encouraged to do something that does not feel right to them, they have to choose where they’re going to put their energy. Are they going to put their energy into pushing their baby out or are they going to put their energy into debating with a provider about what they want to do?

Unfortunately, I think that position puts people in a place where they have to focus on pushing their baby out, so they will do what their provider suggests. This is when partner support or friend support, whoever is there in addition to a doula can absolutely step in and be like, “Actually, she has thought a lot about pushing positions and this is how she would like to be.” If a provider is like, “Well, she is going to tear.” “This is how she would like to be.”

Julie: Then let her tear. Let her tear.

Brittany: Right. Yeah. I think prenatal education, practicing how you’re going to actually word things-- and that is a partner activity too, not just the person who is giving birth-- and really being willing to stand up and speak up. But then, a huge part of it too, and this is a given, is to find a provider that you can have open conversations with prenatally and you can really either help them figure out what your priorities are or maybe you have a provider already that is open to pushing positions that are not the stranded beetle position. But finding a provider that truly is on the same page with you and respectful of your rights as a laboring person is really important.

Meagan: Yes. Yeah. In the birth that I was telling you about, the provider was like, “So, I was really trying to get in there to help you support, but if this is the approach you want to take, I mean, I guess we will just sit here and wait.”

Julie: Whoa. Oh my gosh.

Meagan: That made the birthing parent feel like, “Okay. Am I doing this wrong?” I just looked at her and winked and said, “You’ve got this. Keep on going.” Sure enough, she did. But, it is so hard. We fall in love with these providers, but we need them to be there for us 110% until the very end. The very end meaning you are done, six weeks postpartum, plus. To the very end. 

As a birthing professional, I feel like we need to educate prenatally and give questions to these parents so they can find the right provider. Obviously, we can’t go and pick them, but if we can get questions. Don’t be scared as a birthing parent to ask questions and say, “This is how I want to do it. Do you support that?” or “Hey, what have you seen in the past? Have you ever seen this happen?” If they are like, “Oh, no. That would never work.” Well then, maybe you’ve got a provider that is maybe not right for you if that is what you’re wanting to do.

Brittany: Right.

Julie: It reminds me of the time I had this provider come into the room and we were trying some less traditional methods to get labor to progress on its own. There were flyers up all over the labor and delivery floor. “This provider has delivered 5000 babies.” “5000 babies” all over the floor. You can’t walk outside the door into the bathroom without getting slapped in the face with this celebratory flyer about this provider delivering 5000 babies.

She walks in the room and she’s like, “I have delivered 5000 babies and I’ve never seen this work before. I’ve never seen this happen,” and I’m like, “Well.” That was my birth trauma provider and the first literal birth obstetric violence I’ve seen. That was that birth. I’m like, “Well, have you ever seen anyone try this before?” and she’s like, “This is ridiculous. This is not going to work.” I am like, “But 5000 babies, huh?” That’s all I could think in my mind.

I feel like it’s easy for providers to get set in their ways and a routine. Ideally, we would like providers to be open and understand that parents can have their intuition and that they can adjust as needed, and they can try different things, but a lot of providers see birth one way and one way only. Whenever anything deviates from that way, it feels uncomfortable for them.

I can relate to that. I have really bad anxiety. Ask Meagan. Anytime we try and do something different than we normally do, I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no. We can’t do it that way because we’ve always done it this way,” and Meagan is like, “Well, let’s just go with the flow on this one.” I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no.” But, you know what? I can see a provider kind of reacting like that too. And so, figuring out how to overcome those things, like you said, prenatally is really, really important especially when we have providers that have been doing things their way for a really, really long time.

Brittany: Yeah, and I think exactly like you said, providers have been doing something and seen some things work the majority of the time for potentially a really long time. The training that providers are getting is somewhat limited in terms of the different alternatives that are explored. It’s really easy to very, very strongly believe in the way that you were trained and the way that you have practiced for many years. But, I also think there’s a lot of opportunity to plant little seeds.

As a doula, I love to say things like, “Actually, I learned this new technique. Do you think we could give it a try just for maybe a couple of contractions?” And in my experience--

Julie: How does that go?

Brittany: Yeah, a couple of contractions-- actually, Meagan was hinting towards this, the five contraction thing. A couple of contractions is usually all that you need in one position. I developed this rule that I call the Blossoming Bellies 5/4/3 Rule and it is literally like a guideline for movement. Change position every five contractions. Choose one of four basic positions and change them up in three different ways.

When I say to a provider, “I learned this really cool thing. Do you think we could try it just for a couple of contractions?” Usually, they’re like, “Okay, fine. We will give it a try.” And really, all I want is a couple of contractions because then I would want someone to get into a different position anyway. So, I think planting that seed of change for a provider, and then when they see it work-- that’s when now they are going to put it into the next birth that they go to. But if we don’t stand up, and if we don’t offer, and if we don’t suggest and ask, then we lose that opportunity to plant a seed. Even if that provider is not on board with it in that birth, maybe the next time they hear that they’ll be like, “Oh, this is now the second time I am hearing this. Maybe we should just give it a try.”

I have seen that happen with doula colleagues of mine. I have seen things happen where I have suggested something at a birth and there was a hard “no” from the provider and then actually-- a friend of mine who is a doula. We were talking about this birth and she had the same provider there, and that provider suggested that they do the thing that I just suggested a week before that she was like, “No. Absolutely not.”

I am not going to take the credit for that, but I do like to think that maybe a little seed was planted. I think there is opportunity for change especially with providers that are really interested in again helping to restore that power back to the laboring person. When we remind providers how beautiful of a thing that can be for someone to come out of their birth just feeling amazing about it, we can help providers to become excited about what they are doing rather than just feel like they are tired, and that they are exhausted, and they’re on call, which is all true, but they’re also really lucky to be part of such an amazing experience like birth.

Meagan: Absolutely. I love it. Oh, you give me chills. You make me so happy. You make me happy.

Julie: I have a lot of questions, but I’m just going to ask one since we are kind of running short on time. Going back to closed knee pushing, is it closed knee, ankles out? Or does it matter where the ankles are?

Brittany: In order for the thighs to internally rotate, generally the ankles have to come out. The knees come closer than the hips and the ankles come wider than the hips. But, there are different degrees of variation. I would even encourage everybody to experiment with this on themselves. You could just sit in a chair, bring your knees together and get a sense as to where your ankles are, then bring your ankles farther apart and you’ll get a sense of how even more deeply internally rotated the thighs are.

But, you could also have your feet hip-distance apart, your ankles hip-distance apart, and bring your knees together, and we get internal rotation. So, the knees come in closer than the hips and closer than the ankles, and that is what causes that internal thigh rotation. That’s what pulls on the hips and allows for more space side to side at the outlet of the pelvis.

Julie: That’s what I was figuring. I just wanted to double-check because-- and well, now that I am sitting here on my chair-- if you can hear my creaky chair in the background, that’s why. If you move forward and sit on your sitz bones, sitting on the edge, you can feel that even more. Your sitz bones moving around and your pelvis opening and closing as you move your ankles and knees. We can’t really widen your hips on purpose, but you can do those things. You can feel the adjustment just by sitting on your sitz bones. It’s really cool.

Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. It’s a couple of centimeters of space change, but when you’re pushing out a baby’s head, you want every bit of space that you can get.

Julie: Yes. You need it. I had a midwife tell me once at a home birth-- I am like, “What station is baby at?” Because we know that what we need to do with the pelvis depends on where the baby is and I was like, “Is she zero or plus one?” The midwife was like, “Well, it is really only a 1-centimeter difference.” And I’m like, “Okay, so we are generally mid pelvis, right?” She was like, “Yeah, I would say mid pelvis.” I’m like, “Well, centimeters matter.” 

Oh my gosh, we should make another shirt. “Centimeters matter.” “Get all up out of my perineum.” But really though, even the smallest amount. That’s why I-- sorry, I am just connecting all the dots right now in my mind.

When you’re talking about-- it doesn’t matter what kind of movement, just move. That movement creates those little shifts that help the baby move because the baby is working with your body, and as your body and baby work together, those little minute spaces of movement can make the biggest difference in how the baby descends.

Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Generally, we think of it as pelvic inlet, mid pelvis, and pelvic outlet. Providers can’t always tell exactly what centimeter station the baby is at, but I think it is really important also, especially like you were mentioning in a home birth, that as birth support people, we are able to watch someone laboring, observe someone laboring and recognize where they might be. When you even just said that you said to the midwife, “Is the baby at a zero, or a plus one?” you already knew that baby was at mid pelvis, probably by what you were seeing. Then, we can use that information from an internal exam to further hone in on what positions we may suggest.

I hate to overwhelm people too with all these specific positions that are great at certain points. I don’t like to set people up to think that they could do anything “wrong” in labor. I always like to tell people the first level is just recognizing that movement is really important. The next level would be getting comfortable and familiar with different movements that help when the baby is at different stations.

But really again, even if that feels like way too much to remember, especially as a partner, or a friend, or something supporting someone labor, just remember movement because even the process of getting out of one position and into another-- it’s just like you said. Creating these incremental space changes that give the baby more wiggle room.

Meagan: Absolutely.

Julie: We don’t have to over-complicate it, just like you said, because I am the one that would get overwhelmed. Like Meagan said earlier, she did not sit down at all during her pregnancy. I feel like that in some sense was a certain type of overwhelm, right? And so, if you just say, “Hey, just move, and if you are pushing and it’s not going well, try putting your knees together.” Tada! That’s all you’ve got to remember. I feel like those two things alone can make big shifts in a labor that is not progressing as you normally would like to see it progress.

Brittany: Yeah, definitely. And remember not to stay in any position for too long. I think that’s another thing. I think too, just along the lines like you were saying, getting overwhelmed with things. Sometimes we also get so set on specific things, like how great the all-fours position is, and the all-fours position is great, but not if you’re in it for three hours.

Meagan: Exactly.

Brittany: It is so much about remembering that we don’t want to get hung up on one thing. Labor requires so many different variations, and different suggestions, and a lot of intuitive listening to what the body needs if that is possible-- particularly, like again, an unmedicated birth. But then, if somebody is birthing medicated, we can take those same principles or concepts and apply them to medicated birth too. Again, it doesn’t have to be something that is just for unmedicated labors.

Meagan: Absolutely. We talked about it a little bit earlier, with an epidural. I have actually had a mom squat her baby, deliver squatting with an epidural. We put a rebozo underneath her thighs to hold her up and give her some support and then gave her a squatting bar. Remember, if you are birthing with an epidural, you really, really are not limited to just side, side, back. You are really not. It might take some effort from your support people, but it is okay. You can do it.

Brittany: Yeah. On the other end of the spectrum too, if somebody is birthing without an epidural, side-lying positions can be really awesome for them too, just like they could be for someone with an epidural. I wouldn’t want people to think like, “Well, if I am committed to giving birth without an epidural, I also have to be committed to being upright and in a million different positions.” Upright positions are awesome. I am a big fan of upright positions. But also, sometimes at the end of labor, people need to rest in between pushing contractions.

Meagan: Yes.

Brittany: We can take some of the things that we do with people who have epidurals and also apply that to people who are birthing without epidurals, but remembering the dynamics piece of it, which is how we allow the body to shift and move so that we can create the space where the baby needs it.

Meagan: Definitely. So, I know we are running out of time. I have a really quick question for you. I was at a birth one time and the birthing parent kept going to her hands and knees all the time. Her knees were bruised. She would not get off her hands and knees no matter what. Anything we did-- I was like, “Let’s do this. Let’s do that.” She would not get off her hands and knees. 

The midwife was like, “I don’t know what it is,” and she is a first-time mom. “I don’t know what it is with first-time moms.” She was like, “But I see this pattern.” She was like, “I see that everyone always goes to their hands and knees.” 

Do you think because this is instinctually what our bodies are telling us to do and our babies are speaking to us and saying, “Hey, mom. You need to get on your hands and knees position to help me come down,” or do you think this is something-- because again, it’s more like the movies where you see people laboring on their hands and knees. Do you feel like hands and knees during the entire course of labor is effective? Even slight movement with hip to hip-- do you feel like it should be more? I don’t know. What do you think about hands and knees all the time?

Brittany: That’s a really good question. The first part of your question was, why do I think people tend to assume that position? I think that position, first of all, from an emotional standpoint, you’re focusing on just what is directly in front of you, so it gets rid of all that stimulation that is happening around you. I think it can help people stay in the zone. I also think that it tends to take some pressure off the low back, which most people, even if the baby is not posterior, or there are not tight uterosacral ligaments, people still tend to feel some pressure in their back with contractions. So, that can decrease that pressure.

Also, it may, because it is not a direct upright position, it may decrease the intensity of pelvic floor sensation too. So, I think it can be a little bit of a protective position, but it is also a really great position for progress because it still allows for a little bit of gravity. It still opens up space in the pelvis. Although it may be a protective position in terms of allowing someone to manage sensations more easily, I think it’s also a really great progressive position too.

But, I think you’ll know my answer to the second part which is, what about people staying in that position the whole time they’re in labor? I would say no.

Meagan: Move, yeah. No.

Brittany: Move. But here’s the thing. So, let’s say someone loves that position. Well, if they’re getting up to go to the bathroom once every hour, then there is a movement. That’s great. Then they can go back into their all-fours position. But also, if we remember-- and you hinted at this with the swing of the hips. If we remember that there’s a million different positions within that all fours position, that’s really important.

For example, when I was talking about the 5/4/3 rule with the four basic positions that I use as my starting points-- there is standing, seated, all fours, and reclined. The three variations that we suggest for those for basic positions are thigh rotation and how we rock the lower back, whether we do sacral nutation or counternutation, iliac nutation or counternutation-- basically like pelvic tilts-- and then also whether we are creating asymmetry.

So, if we have this all-fours position, and we cycle through different degrees of variation within those three things-- the thigh rotation, the pelvic tilt in the asymmetry-- we can still stay in all fours, and changeup that position every five contractions, and do a modification of all fours, and then remember to get up once every hour and go to the bathroom. 

And then, if that’s the position the person wants to stay in, great. But they are not staying in a stagnant all fours the entire time. They are still changing it up, staggering their legs, bringing their knees farther apart, bringing them closer together, elevating one leg up on a yoga block, elevating one leg up more dramatically on a peanut ball, putting your upper body at a 45-degree angle then doing a flat tabletop back, rocking the lower back to do some pelvic tilts. We’ve done all those things for five contractions. It’s definitely time to get up and use the bathroom now, and then you can come back in that position and do it all again.

Meagan: Yes, and the bathroom. While we were chatting, I was like, “Oh. The ‘use the bathroom’ thing.” It just gets me. It is such a perfect thing because one, it is good to empty our bladder and we sometimes forget about it. Two, it changes things up, really gets our pelvis moving and changing. It opens with gravity as we are sitting on the toilet, which, I like to sit on the toilet backwards when I’m in the bathroom even though people think that is kind of crazy, but it is really good.

But, yes. Don’t forget to go to the bathroom and I love the “every hour.” Just try. Yeah, you may not have been drinking a lot, but you may have had IV fluids or your body is making urine. So, don’t forget to pee.

Brittany: That needs to be a T-shirt too. “Your body is making urine. Don’t forget to pee.”

Julie: A doula shirt! “Don’t forget to pee.” There are so many benefits though because an empty bladder helps baby descend properly too because the bladder is underneath the baby’s head. I tell my clients that every time a nurse asks if they can check your cervix, then just ask if you can go pee first because then it gets you up and moving. It gets you on the toilet which helps open up the pelvis. It empties your bladder and it gives you a little more time, right? Just a little more time. But, still. I am going to make a shirt. Oh my gosh, I have got to make a list.

“Do you have to pee? Don’t forget to pee!”

Meagan: I keep referencing back to this awesome birth because it was literally a week ago, but that was something that happened. She hadn’t peed in forever. I had been with her for 4.5 hours at this point and she had not peed. We are looking at this 9 centimeters thing, right? We are sitting here at 9 centimeters. We are working on things. I had her pee, but she couldn’t. She couldn’t pee because the baby was blocking things a little bit. Then the providers were like, “She doesn’t need anything. She hasn’t even gotten that many fluids.” I’m like, “Yeah, but she has been drinking.” Anyway, she was like, “I don’t really feel like I have to pee.” I’m like, “That doesn’t mean you don’t have to.” 

So, anyway. We talked about straight cath. She was unmedicated, and so that can be sometimes uncomfortable, but you should have seen the amount of pee that came out of this straight rubber red cath. I do think that had a lot to do with helping as well because it created space for the baby in there in a different way.

That is an option if you can’t pee and you haven’t peed for a while and you are unmedicated, because usually if you are medicated, you’ve got a catheter and it’s easy peasy. But, it’s okay. I asked her, “So, how was that?” She was like, “That was nothing. That was nothing.”

Don’t be scared of that. The providers were like, “We don’t want to put her through that” and she was like, “No. I am glad we did.” So, know that that is an option if you feel like you cannot go to the bathroom because your baby is blocking or too low in that sense. You can do that and it did. It worked and it helped.

Meagan: There is something that can’t go untold about you. It’s a really exciting thing. It’s really exciting, and guess what? It is November 30th as of this day. By the time this is being released soon, this is already going to happen. Brittany actually has a chapter-- is it a chapter technically that you have written?-- in a book that is getting released in December. I’m so excited about this. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and maybe tell them where they can find it?

Brittany: Yeah, sure. Absolutely. I am really honored to be a part of this book. It is a multi-author book. Each chapter is written by somebody different. The book focuses specifically on VBAC and inspiring stories, confidence-building stories, and also tips, and techniques, and suggestions, and insights from birth professionals to help people feel really empowered in moving forward with a VBAC or also feel empowered by a repeat Cesarean birth.

It’s called Baby Got VBAC and I do have a chapter in the book. My chapter is on pelvic dynamics because it is a really important part of labor progress which can help to decrease the need for intervention. My chapter is all about the importance of movement, but also, it is filled with some anecdotal stories that I have gotten permission to share from clients whose births I have attended, and just an insight into my perspective on birth and movement, and birth, and empowering birth experiences. I even get into a little bit of informed consent because that is another really important part of what I do. So, it is really awesome. It is coming out mid-December.

It is called Baby Got VBAC. The link to purchase it will be available on my website, which is at blossomingbelliesbirth.com. It will be available on Amazon for only one dollar for the first 30 days or so. It will be a digital download that you can put on your Kindle, or whatever you use to read stuff on your phone, or whatever. So very limited time, it will be available for one dollar and then after that, it will be available on the website at regular price and we will have print additions coming out as well. We are looking at mid-December for that to be released. You’ll be able to find a link to that on my website.

I am really excited to share that platform with expectant parents, not expectant parents, although expectant parents can read it, but people who have given birth, parents sharing their stories, which I think is really awesome, but also I think what makes this book really unique is that it incorporates stories from birth professionals too, including clinical providers also. It is a really interesting mix of empowering stories coming from a lot of different areas. It is intended for birth professionals to read. It is intended for expectant parents, and I think also, even people who are maybe done having children may still find the book to be really fun and inspiring. So, yeah. Baby Got VBAC coming out in mid-December.

Meagan: Yay!

Julie: That is so exciting. By the time this episode airs, it will be-- let me look at my schedule, February. It is live now! Go buy it.

Brittany: Thank you.

Meagan: I want you to put a pause on this episode right now, but don’t forget to come back and listen. I want you to go to Instagram and go to @blossomingbelliesbirth  and you will see her Instagram. Trust me, you want to go join it. Girl, you do so many things. You do webinars and trainings, and just so much stuff that is so awesome. So, go check her out. Don’t miss what she has got going on, because it’s amazing.

Brittany: Thank you. Just to let people know, that although a lot of the services that I offer are services that people pay for, I do also think it is so important for people to have access to free, usable information. There are also one-hour webinars available on the website that are totally free. Physical and postpartum recovery from both vaginal and Cesarean birth, prenatal nutrition, pregnancy Q&A, pumping and storing human milk-- all sorts of options on there for free, one-hour webinars too. I don’t think people should be limited to having money to get information. I think it should be accessible to everyone.

Julie: I’m so glad you said that because we agree, too. That’s why we have this podcast. We have our blogs so people can find a lot of information for free, but we also have our paid course, which is like the deluxe, more in-depth. You don’t have to go searching all of our podcasts and websites for information. It’s all right there in a condensed version for you with lots more, really cool stuff to do. Yes. I love that. I love that you offer that. Meagan, we should do a one-hour webinar on our website.

Meagan: You are inspiring us in all the ways.

Brittany: Oh good! I am so glad. That is awesome.

Meagan: Yes. You know, I haven’t really ever done a webinar, but y’all are doing it. Gina does it too. I am late. Maybe we need to do a webinar.

Julie: We have done webinars. It’s just Facebook Live or Zoom.

Meagan: Yeah, Facebook Lives. I guess that is true. But Brittany is there anything you would like to add that we-- I mean, I’m sure there is tons of stuff that you could add.

Brittany: Oh my gosh, right? Do we have another 10 hours? No, I mean, just maybe in parting, I would encourage people to remember that this is your birth experience and it is something that you carry with you for the rest of your life. Your provider may or may not remember your birth a week from now or a year from now, but you carry that experience with you every day moving forward. 

Do the research. Get the education. Get comfortable using your voice. Really expect the same respect that you would in any other aspect of your life in birth. I feel like birth is one of those times where for some reason we may allow ourselves to be treated in a way that we wouldn’t in other aspects of our lives, and recognizing that it is a client and professional relationship. You are paying somebody to be there with you. You have every right to use your voice, and speak up, and make your wishes heard and respected. I think that’s everything.

Meagan: Thank you so much. Julie, is there anything you want to say?

Julie: Amen. And find our T-shirt shop, thevbaclink.com/bonfire because there will be additions.

Meagan: There will be additional T-shirts. She is probably really not kidding because she loves T-shirts.

Julie: No, I am not kidding. Creating and designing things and so, when we get inspired, let’s do it.

Meagan: Right? We should do another T-shirt that says, “Closed knees, say what?”

Julie: Okay, hold on. Hold on. I have got to add it to my list. I really have a list going on. Oh my gosh. Yes, this will be fun.

Meagan: Thank you so much, seriously.

Brittany: Thank you for having me. This has been super fun and it has been an honor to be here.

Meagan: Well, it is an honor to have you here. Like I said, I just adore you and love you, and I am always scrolling your Instagram. I can’t wait to read that book. I can’t wait. I will definitely be picking it up for a dollar, that’s for sure. I would pay more than a dollar too.

Julie: Well, thank you so much.

Brittany: Thank you very much, guys.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

“To the unsupportive OB:”

“To that labor and delivery nurse:”

“To my partner:”

“To the midwife who believed in me:”

“To myself:”

The long-awaited episode is here. This is the one where YOU have the spotlight. Mari Vega and Allie Mennie are back to join Meagan and Julie as they read your letter submissions. Let your voices be heard. Let your trauma heal. We tell the world everything you weren’t given the chance to say during your birth. 

The VBAC Link’s Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program

Allie Mennie’s website

Mari Vega’s website

This episode is sponsored by our Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program. This course is designed for birth workers who want to take their VBAC education to the next level so you can support parents who have had a Cesarean in the most effective ways. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more information and sign up today. 

Interested in sponsoring a The VBAC Link podcast? Find out more information here at advertisecast.com/TheVBACLink or email us at [email protected].

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar and to eliminate false starts and filler words. 

Julie: Happy Wednesday, women of strength. We have a really incredible episode for you today. I can’t even put into words all of the things I am feeling about what we are about to do because it’s big. It’s big, and it’s emotional. Some of us are reading over these for the first time. I think there’s going to be lots of tears and crying. I don’t know. We’re going to try to not get angry and frustrated. 

We asked you back in December, or the end of November, maybe it was, to write an anonymous letter to a healthcare worker, your provider, somebody on your hospital staff, or somebody that negatively affected your birth. These are all anonymous letters. We have lots and lots of submissions, and we are excited to read them to you today. 

Now, I want you to be advised that some of these letters have some difficult experiences explained in them. But, I think it’s really, really important that we listen to these, we hear them, and we meet these anonymous letter writers where they are because this is the state of maternity care in our country. These things that we are about to read are not uncommon experiences. And this is why we as The VBAC Link, and we as birth doulas and all of us advocate so much for change and education, and all sorts of things. But before I start rambling on more, I don’t want to take too long. We are not going to read a review of the week. We are just going to get right into the letters after the intro.

Julie: Birth workers, listen up. Do you want to increase your knowledge of birth after a Cesarean? We created our Advanced VBAC Doula Certification Program just for you. It is the most comprehensive VBAC doula training in the world, perfectly packaged in an online, self-paced video course. This course is designed for birth workers who want to take their VBAC education to the next level so you can support parents who have had a Cesarean in the most effective ways. We have created a complete system, a step-by-step road map that shows exactly what you need to know to support parents birthing after a Cesarean. Head over to thevbaclink.com to find out more information and sign up today. That’s thevbaclink.com. See you there.

Julie: Alright, as you know, we have invited Allie Mennie and Marilys back with us to this episode as a follow-up to Marilys’ episode. We are going to take turns reading the letters. You guys, these are really raw and vulnerable. We are going to rotate through and try not to scream, and yell, and hit our computer screens. But also, yeah. That’s it, nothing else.

Mari, do you have the first one?

Mari: Our first letter starts with: 

“Hello, beautiful doula angels! I just listened to Marilys’ episode and wanted to send you my letter. My letter may actually be the opposite of what you are looking for. It would be a positive one because although I ended up with a Cesarean, my provider made my birth experience amazing. It was the nurses I didn’t care for. 

‘To my provider, thank you. Thank you for letting me make my own decisions. Thank you for asking for consent before doing any procedures or taking the next steps. For informing me of all the risks and benefits of any procedure, I had the OPTION for during my pregnancy, labor, and delivery. Thank you for not making me feel guilty or bad about my 60lb pregnancy weight gain. For giving me the option of which hospital I wanted to deliver at. For dealing with my many text messages asking you questions throughout my pregnancy. 

Thank you for coming to my birth even though you were not on call. For having me push for four hours before even mentioning a Cesarean. For being quiet and calm while having me and my son in our most vulnerable states-- my body open and my mind full of fear. 

Thank you for taking time going over the risks and benefits of a Cesarean as well as a VBAC and reminding me that the best-case scenario for me would be to VBAC. For assuring me that the risk of uterine rupture is extremely low and should not deter me from having a VBAC. Thank you for recommending a pelvic floor therapist when I came to you six months postpartum, still leaking urine and in agonizing pain during intercourse. 

Thank you for being the provider that performed my cesarean and the provider I have 110% confidence in to support my VBAC.’

I hope this letter can be a reminder that a negative birth experience is not always the result of the provider or their actions. My provider was one of the most positive aspects of my birth and the only time I was fully able to relax was with her in the room. The negative aspects of my birth experience came from the labor and postpartum nurses, as well as my lack of knowledge and education about the whole process. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. But because of The VBAC Link, I now know what I didn’t know, and more.”

Meagan: Wow.

Mari: Whew! Go, VBAC Link. 

Julie: I love that. 

Mari: What a nice start. 

Julie: What a great letter to start this episode off with. Perfect. 

Mari: It’s important. It’s important for people to know that it’s also the journey that matters and not the outcome.

Julie: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love it. Alright. Allie, you are up with the next letter. 

Allie: Alrighty. They start by saying: 

“Thank you for posting the most recent podcast.”

This is actually a member of Mari’s ICAN chapter. She says: 

“I'm so glad to have seen and heard her on your platform. This is such a good exercise. I'm glad to have had the chance to write out my feelings to MYSELF on my ‘failed’ VBAC.” 

So this is a letter that this mother wrote to herself. It says: 

“You are a warrior mama to your two beautiful babies. I wish you didn't cast so much self-doubt and ill feelings of your capacity to be a mom simply because you didn't push them out of your vagina. After your first C-section, which we both agree you naively weren't prepared for but still doesn't justify how traumatic it was (even these 30 months later), you did ALL the things in preparation of your next pregnancy-- switched providers, read all the books, listened to podcasts, went to ICAN meetings, hired a doula, found your voice to fight for the birth you knew you wanted and the chance to make that happen. 

That morning, four days before your due date when you went into labor, remember those feelings. You were ecstatic to go into labor on your own, something previously robbed of you, it escalated so fast. You got to the hospital two hours later to have your water break as you wobbled in, to find you were already at a ten and fully effaced and ready to push that baby out. 

As you started pushing, you had a deep gut feeling that this wasn't going to be a different outcome than last time. That no matter how much you prepared, this baby doesn't seem like he was going to come out on his own or anytime soon. You are brave for being more concerned with the baby's well-being and not wanting to send him into distress than of your own desire to have him exit vaginally. 

Your choices and decisions were not based on fear. They were based on what you knew and what you valued most-- a healthy baby and healing birth experience. Your baby being big AND OP had the cards stacked against you. But you know what? Up until being rolled into the OR, you stuck to your guns on what you wanted for this birth-- to go into labor naturally, to break your water on your own, to experience all those feelings, NO pain medication, and to push.

Remember what your doula told you. You ran 26 miles of that marathon and needed assistance getting past the finish line. AND THAT'S OKAY. Your C-section this time was everything your first was not. You were AWAKE. You got to see the baby come out. Daddy got to cut the cord. You got to hear his cries and snuggle him right away. 

Not all VBACs are healing, and not all C-sections are traumatic. You've seen it all, and you are the best mama for your babies! Having a baby come out of your belly doesn't make you less of a mom. You carried those babies lovingly all those months and having them earthside with you; you know it doesn't matter how they got here. They are healthy, thriving, happy, and most importantly, are your whole world. If you have another baby and want to try for a VBA2C, that's still okay too! Your feelings are valid. YOU ARE THE BEST MOM to your kids. You gave it your all, did all the things with all the BEST resources you could, tried to change his position while pushing. You left no stone unturned. There is nothing to feel guilty about!”

Julie: Chills.

Mari: How beautiful. 

Julie: What a lovely letter to herself. I can relate to a lot of those things she said, and I am really proud of her for writing that letter. 

Mari: Me too. I can’t wait to see her. 

Meagan: I think that’s something we honestly, as birth workers, could encourage our clients to do, is write themselves a letter. 

Julie: Yeah. I think so. I think that’s really important to do. Even as birth workers, holy smokes, after some births that are really, really tough.

Allie: Absolutely. Putting myself in that position, it would be harder to write a letter to me than to a provider. 

Julie: Totally. 

Allie: Even if I had angry things to say to a provider, it would be easier sometimes, as a parent, to say angry things to a provider than nice things about myself. I am so proud of this mom for finding those words to be kind to herself, and to be proud of herself, and to know that she is the best mom for her babies. I believe it. I know she is.

Julie: Yeah, I agree. I think that’s a really important, brave, and courageous thing to do. Perfect. Alright, let’s move along. Meagan. You are up.

Meagan: Alright. It says:

“What a coincidence, in just a few days, it will be two years since I brought my son into this world. I have thought about how to begin this letter and could never put in words what I went through, mostly out of fear and not wanting to relive those events again. 

Many have told me how lucky I am to have a healthy baby and as I look back now, I can 1000% say that I am extremely grateful that the events after his birth were resolved and that he is a perfectly healthy two-year-old. 

However, two years ago, on December 3, 2018, I was in a dark, dark place. The day started out perfectly. I’ll admit, I was nervous, but I had been here before since this was my second baby. I was feeling all of the emotions of leaving my first baby at home and what she would think when she saw her baby brother, but that quickly quieted as I was induced, and this baby would be here before we knew it. Except we took a turn for the unexpected when my nurse told me she could not feel my baby’s head and thought he might not be in position. Cue panic. I had been to my OBGYN’s office just a day prior, and I was told, based off his expertise and ultrasound from a week prior, that my baby was head down and ready to go. 

How could this be possible? Clearly, in my mind, she was wrong, but I wanted to hear back from my doctor. She proceeds to call my doctor and send me into an ultrasound at 5 cm dilated. I can remember that there were about four nurses in the room when one abruptly states, “Yup! C-section!”. I immediately broke down. I had no idea what I was in for, and the words stung me to my core, and just as fast as she said it, they left my room, and my world was shattered. 

I could think back to a few days before I was induced at my routine appointment when my OB’s nurse was joking that hopefully, I would have a small baby since her husband, who was my doctor, almost led her to get a C-section because her baby was much larger than they ever anticipated. It was almost like she called my fate, to no fault of her own. My baby was big, and not only that, he was laying sideways across my belly, and somehow it was never suspected. I know these things happen. Babies turn at the last minute, but the way I was treated with no explanation and no options was barbaric. But it only gets worse from here. 

As I headed into the C-section, I was so afraid but confided in my doctor. He delivered my previous baby without a flinch. I can’t remember much, but I know things got stale for a moment. My husband can remember the nurses panicking and wanting to call in another surgeon. Had I heard this, it may have been worse for me. But moments later, I heard a little cry, and everything was right in the world again. 

The C-section didn’t matter anymore. He was here, and I was crying tears of joy. I was placed in recovery where my pain was unbearable, and my baby was taken as I couldn’t hold him. My nurse was stunned that I needed more pain medication and all I could do was cry. 

That’s when the pediatric nurse came in and said my son was doing great, but there seemed to be something wrong with his left arm. He needed to be taken to get an X-ray. While all of this was happening, my mom bumped into my doctor in the hallway. She remembers him telling her the issues with the baby’s delivery and how, ‘He doesn’t know what happened, but my baby was in a very bad position, and it was very difficult to pull him out.’ 

The next few days were quite possibly the worst I have ever experienced in my life. Advocating for my son and myself when I had no idea how untrustworthy these providers truly were. It took a whole 24 hours for a pediatrician to come assess my son, and that was after I had to make a complaint to the nurse manager. That night, my doctor came by to see me and never once asked how he could help me. He boasted about his new practice he was opening up, and all I felt was rage. How could he be so carefree? Everyone around me was so happy. My son was alive and breathing, yes, but he wasn’t moving his left arm! 

On day three, when I was supposed to be released, I began having panic attacks. So, I was held another day due to my mental health. On the fourth day, I was supposed to be released with a psychiatric clearance, and the psychiatrist NEVER showed up. I begged my doctor. I couldn’t stay one more day. I needed to start the process of finding out how to help my son get a diagnosis because all I could hear was “potential nerve damage,” “possibly Erb’s palsy.” 

No MRI’s to check his nerves, no neurologists, no one came by to see my son in FIVE days. How is this possible? I ask myself this question all the time now, but the one thing I learned is how to speak up. I learned not to take no for an answer. I advocated for my son while I was in a deep, deep depression where I couldn’t sleep for days on end. I would cry and cry and ask, why me? Why my baby? It is the only thing that kept me going. 

After my six-week follow-up, I never heard from my doctor again. If there is one thing I could tell him or ask him is, “Why weren’t you more supportive?” He knew that my son suffered an injury, and yes, at that point, he is only there to treat me, the mother, but as a human being who knows what this process is like for mothers, he failed me in every way. The hospital failed me and my son. The people who we put our very lives and health in their hands just washed them off and continued about their lives as if nothing happened. 

What I love about the experience is that when I went to get a second opinion for my son three months down the line with a specialist who works directly with the hospital where I gave birth, she was in utter disbelief. She couldn’t understand how a newborn with suspected nerve damage just flew under the radar. She validated me and my anger. She confirmed the errors that were done that day, and that was when I began to heal. Although it will never fully be erased from my mind and that trust is forever broken, time has been a wonderful ally and has helped me overcome what I went through.”

Julie: That was a nice one. A nice, long, thorough explanation. Wow. That’s crazy. 

Meagan: That is crazy. Julie: She never said how her baby is. I want to know.

Meagan: I know, and what the final diagnosis was.

Julie: Alright, it’s my turn. I absolutely love this one. Short, sweet, and to the point. Kind of just like me, except for maybe I’m not sweet as much very often when I’m to the point. She said:

“You told me I couldn't push my 10-pound baby without possibly killing me or him. Jokes on you, I pushed out an 11-pound baby out of my vagina!”

Boom. That’s how it is. Just like that. 

Mari: It’s very normal. Many women have done that, yes. Big baby does not equal you are powerless. 

Julie: Yes, oh my gosh. Love it. Alright, Mari. You are next. 

Mari: Alright. 

“To my midwife: No. I wish I would have just said no. You failed me by not telling me my choices. You failed me by not explaining to me what all the interventions would do. No, you can't break my water. No, you can’t put an internal monitor on my baby. No, you can't give me an epidural. No, I will not push on my back for three hours. No, I WILL NOT HAVE A C-SECTION. My baby was not stuck. You just didn't try. But yes, I will have my VBAC!”

Well, pretty straightforward and to the point. Sometimes we’ve got to practice saying that big N-O.

Julie: Yes. No. No. That’s all you have to say. No explanation. Just no, period. Complete sentence. Love it. Alright, Allie. You’re up. 

Allie: Alright. 

“I wish you would have informed and educated me of potential outcomes of your choices for me. I wish you would have encouraged me to get up and move when I was scared in early labor. I wish you would have turned me and moved me once I had an epidural. I wish you would have given me more time to labor instead of insisting on the C-section when I had a slow progression for my first baby. I feel my outcome was chosen for me instead of chosen by me. You didn’t think of me as a person, but rather me as just another patient and delivery that you needed to complete on your timetable. My delivery was traumatic due to you.”

Mari: I like that she gave that accountability to somebody because sometimes, it’s always the mom that failed. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Mari: We carry that guilt. 

Julie: Well, and the biggest thing is-- we are rewriting parts of our manual right now. I just read through the part about traumatic birth. The biggest part of whether a parent will have PTSD or not about their birth is how they perceive they were cared for. It doesn’t matter how they were actually cared for. It’s how they perceived they were cared for. Providers have a lot more influence on these birth outcomes emotionally than they think they do.

Meagan: Okay, this next one. We can’t swear on our podcast. I’m just going to give you a brief intro, and then I will read it. Pretty much, they are saying that they felt fear-mongered, and they felt like it was made to be their fault for their traumatic birth. She encourages her provider to retire. Her words say: 

“To my midwife of my second birth: you empowered me, made me feel safe, and made calls for me when I couldn't while keeping in mind what I wanted. Thank you. Because of you, I no longer fear birth. 

To my partner: thank you for being my rock through both of the births of our babies. Watching you become a father never ceases to amaze me. Thank you for taking care of me and our babies.”

Julie: I love it. I love that she found support through her second birth, and she had a supportive provider and partner. Sometimes, that’s all that is important. I remember we just said it on our podcast not too long ago. You shouldn’t have to have a bad birth in order to have a good birth. But I feel like a lot of times with VBAC parents--

Meagan: It’s kind of how it works. 

Julie: That’s kind of how it works, right?

Meagan: I want to also congratulate her for recognizing fear-mongering because that’s sometimes a really hard thing to ever even look back and see. It’s really awesome that she could look back and recognize that. 

Julie: Yeah, absolutely. Alright, this next one really gets me to my core. She says: 

“Dear Doctor, 

I wish you'd been there. I wish you'd been there to help me get the natural birth that you knew I wanted so desperately. I wish you'd been there to help me stand up for myself, to truly inform me of my choices and options, to let me feel like I was making the decision, rather than having it made for me. 

Because you were gone, your colleague rushed me. Because you were gone, she made all the decisions for me. Because you were gone, my all-natural birth turned into an unwanted induction for reasons that didn't warrant an induction yet. And that induction turned into hell, twenty-nine hours of it, with every side effect in the book, and some that aren't. And then my all-natural birth turned into an unnecessary and unwanted C-section, and the birth after that as well. 

You were gone, and my son's birth became a traumatic experience that I barely remember. 

It's probably better that I don't remember most of it. Because there are truly no happy memories of my son's birth. I wish you'd been there because I think if you were, it would have been different.”

That’s just-- I’m all choked up over here, guys. Somebody else talk. 

Mari: That one’s the reality, right? Sometimes when you go somewhere, and they tell you that this is the back-up doctor and you don’t feel good about the back-up provider-- it’s a reminder. That matters. 

Julie: Yeah, I agree. 

Meagan: I think that’s also a good question to ask when you are in care with a provider is, “Is there any chance that you won’t be at my birth?”

Julie: Absolutely. We don’t know why this person‘s provider wasn’t there.

Meagan: Right, we don’t.

Julie: But it is important to know. Alright, Mari. You are up.

Mari: Alrighty, well.

“I was only 22; I wish I would have asked the medical staff to explain what was happening. A lot was happening TO me, but no one was speaking TO me.”

Doesn’t that happen so often?

Meagan: Mhmm.

Julie: Yeah. Again, going back to perceived care and whether they feel like decisions are being made for them. So hard. Alright, Allie.

Allie: This letter has a few different letters in it to different parts of the team and different professionals that this parent worked with. She starts: 

“To the hospital birthing team: Why? Why did you care more about helping my epidural work better because it couldn’t be full strength than about me actually progressing to avoid a C-section?? Did you decide I was a lost cause from the beginning because I had severe preeclampsia? Was it all just an act because all of you decided my fate for me? 

Why were you so dismissive of my thoughts and concerns? Why did you leave me on my back, refusing to help me lay in other positions and never trying a peanut ball? You forced me back to my back if I managed to move myself because “the epidural works by gravity,” so I have to lay mostly flat on my back for it to work since I couldn’t have a normal dose. Why couldn’t you have focused on frequent position changes to help baby move down and me progress to get me through labor faster??

My baby turned posterior because of your decision to leave me on my back.  I truly think it made the contractions feel more intense, and that broke my spirit. That is why I gave up and gave in to a C-section.

To my OB: Why did you tell me you were going to break my water instead of asking if you could? I didn’t speak up because I was in such shock but, ‘Uh? Okay?’ is NOT consent. You told me that everything seemed fine and I could keep laboring but made me feel like something was wrong and that waiting to have a C-section was the wrong choice, but your only reasoning in my records is failure to progress.

Did you truly think something was wrong, or did you want the money from the C-section? My mom heard you arguing with your husband on the phone because you decided to stay late to perform a C-section again. My friends all say you tried to scare them into C-sections during moments their labors slowed, too. It makes me feel so weak that I gave in. You cut my son. He came into this world already scarred. It’s hidden by hair now, but it was a constant reminder of the hurt I feel about my birth for an entire year.

To the postpartum nurse who yelled at me and threatened me with calling CPS for crying because I was so exhausted and hadn't truly slept in over 55 hours and struggled to stay awake while nursing my child. Find a new profession. You have ZERO business working with women who just gave birth.” 

Julie: Wow. Wow. I felt that way about a couple of nurses as a doula and as a parent, actually. I’m going to run a statistic. Jumping in here, 1 in 12 babies are cut during the Cesarean procedure. That’s the most common complication for babies.

Mari: Wow.

Meagan: Wild, huh?

Julie: Alright, Meagan.

Meagan: Okay, so yes. This next one:

“Dear labor and delivery nurse, 

You sat next to me staring at the monitor all afternoon. You only said to me that my labor was stalling because I came to the hospital too soon, and the doctor probably was wrong to admit me. Yet you stayed there all afternoon. Were you worried about something you were seeing? 

I ended up after talking with my doctor and going with a C-section. I felt my body failed me, and I gave up having a natural birth. I ended up scheduling a repeat C-section with my second because no one had confidence in me that the same stalling of labor would not happen again. 

I ended up having my third daughter vaginally, but she was born at 21 weeks due to multiple fatal fetal anomalies. This labor was fast but intense. I was able to hold her immediately, even though she only lived a few minutes. I finally met a doctor who believes I could have a successful VBAC after two Cesareans. I'm hoping for a VBAC with my fourth, so I can hold my healthy baby right away.”

Julie: Goosebumps and chills over here. So many hard things. So many hard things. Alright, we’re going to move on. This next letter says:

“To the midwife I saw while in early labor who told me the baby was just moving and making me uncomfortable: 24 hours later, I was getting prepped for an emergency C-section. I often wonder what would have happened if you would've noticed I was in labor? Maybe I could've made it full-term. Maybe my baby would have it a little easier right now. Maybe I wouldn't be terrified to have a second.”

Mari: Wow. I hope that mama can process that fear. 

Julie: Me too. 

Mari: And that trauma. That is so sad to be scared to even give birth again.

Julie: Yeah, I agree. 

Mari: Okay. I’m up, right?

“I needed love and support and a positive environment. You gave me nothing but a cold manner and no hope. Even after it wasn't my fault (crash C-section due to sudden placental abruption after 38 hours of natural labor), you made it seem like it was.”

The end. 

Julie: I have a really hard time when providers and nurses place blame. Because sometimes, there is no blame. Sometimes things just happen, but we naturally as humans want to find a reason why. I had a client once with a really rough birth, and the nurses were very vocal about their displeasure with the decisions she made and the decisions I made in supporting her. It just adds so much pain, so much unnecessary pain, to what is already a painful experience. 

Alright, Allie. You are next.

Allie: Okay.

“My first birth was 3.5 years ago with my daughter. To this day, I have so much anger and hurt inside due to so many things that happened! My water broke at home. I wasn't feeling contractions, but we went in, and they confirmed that I'd be admitted. At that time, my midwife wasn't on, so the OB doctor that was on came in checked me. He said I was at 1 centimeter. He immediately wanted me to start taking a pill to progress labor and stated before leaving that he saw a C-section in my future. 

That alone made me so angry as we had planned and prepared for a completely natural vaginal birth. That night by 7:00 p.m., I wasn't where that same doctor wanted to see me, so he demanded I start Pitocin. I looked at my nurse and (who was amazing) and told her, “No way, my body needed time to do what it was supposed to.” She agreed! 

By midnight, they made me start Pitocin. By hour 38, they told me I had to go for a C-section even though baby and I were both stable and I had made slow progress. They had only allowed me clear liquids from the time I was admitted, so I was exhausted and had confined me to a bed after starting medications. I remember crying and my midwife coming in crying, telling me she was so sorry this was happening to me and that we would get a VBAC on the next one. 

I remember being on the OR table, hardly being able to talk, trying to tell them I couldn’t breathe when the anesthesiologist finally said, “You’re fine. Your oxygen is perfect,” then reaching over and putting oxygen on me stating it was for the baby, not me! 

Finally, my daughter was born. I felt so lifeless and defeated. I remember instantly, and still to this day, feeling like a terrible mom because I didn’t even cry when she was born. I held her with my husband’s help for a couple of minutes. They then took her away and sent me to recovery. My husband went with her and stayed with her.

My second birth was a planned HBAC, which also ended in a C-section due to our state not allowing midwives at home to use herbs on patients who have had a previous C-section. Once again, my midwife at the hospital was comfortable augmenting labor, however, the doctors above her said, “Absolutely not. It’s a C-section!” However, this time I refused to let my baby out of my sight. He stayed with me and my husband in recovery and never left the room for tests. Overall, the second birth was much better, besides feeling like the hospital failed me by not trying to help my body. 

I am dreading a hospital birth with our third baby, which is due in April. I wish and pray that before this baby is born, I can release some of this anger and sadness I have held for the last 3.5 years so that maybe I can birth open-minded and feel the empowerment I did at home with my son! I want to know that my provider has my back 110% and that I’m not going to be bullied the way I was with my daughter! And I wish I had the chance to tell the doctor who told me he saw a C-section in my future how angry and defeated that made me feel, as I refuse to see that doctor to this day!”

Meagan: Wow. Alright, here goes the next one. 

Julie: Heavy sighs over here. Alright, Meagan. 

Meagan: “Dear nurse,

I’m sure you have long forgotten me, but I will never forget you. And not for a good thing. Two and a half years later, I am still so angry with you for making me not trust my doctor. You had no right to make me distrust her. You were my nurse. You were supposed to advocate for me, support me. 

Instead, you made my birth experience about you. I don’t care that you didn’t like my doctor or didn’t agree with everything she’s done in the past. You put so much doubt in me, in my doctor. And then you got to walk out the door at seven that night smugly saying that I wouldn't have my baby that night. Well, f*** you. I had my perfect little girl four hours later. And two and a half years later, I still don't know why I had an emergency C-section. Was it because you stressed me out so much? Was it because my water had broken? I’ll never know because you created so much distrust that I can’t even believe my records. You acted like you had all the answers, but clearly, you had no idea. In a way, I’m glad it was me and not another vulnerable mom who you made feel this way. But I also feel a lot of shame for never saying anything. 

I get to make it right. My contractions are seven minutes apart, and even if this isn’t true labor, this baby is coming within a week. I will get my VBAC, and I won’t be leaving the hospital without telling them how you made me feel, so in the case you’re still working there, you can’t make another mom feel the way I did. I can say thank you for one thing. Thank you for creating this rage within me to fight for what I want this time. I get a second chance, and no matter what happens, I am in charge.”

Julie: I love that. I think it’s really important to point out that if you have a bad experience with any member of your birth team in the hospital staff, your provider, you can file a formal complaint with the hospital administration. It is your right to do that, and you should do that, because if this is a pattern of behavior that these nurses or providers are doing, then they need a serious talking to in the very least. So, thank you for sharing that with us. All right, next app. This is a hard one.

“To the unsupportive OB:

I only saw you once, but you immediately made me feel guilty for wanting to have a VBAC less than 18 months after my C-section. When I asked how you felt about unmedicated birth, you told me I wouldn’t be allowed to leave my bed anyway and that not having an epidural was a bad idea. You told me I’d have to come in as soon as labor started and that I couldn’t eat anything once I was checked in. You brought up all the things that could go wrong and told me I was at a much greater risk of rupture since I wouldn’t be meeting the 18-month ‘requirement.’

When I said I didn’t want a C-section unless it was truly an emergency, you told me that being put under anesthesia created a bigger risk for my baby. All you talked about that entire appointment was what could and probably would go wrong. But you didn’t scare me. Everything you said did nothing except fuel the fire I already had. I didn’t leave the office that day feeling guilty or afraid or in tears. I left pissed off at you and your ignorance and the fact that you heaped SO much guilt onto me. 

I left and found a new office that I felt would support me. At my first appointment, the midwife who I then met for the first time, spent most of the appointment asking me about my concerns and reassuring me. She affirmed all of my feelings and desires for an unmedicated VBAC. She saw no reason why I couldn’t go for it. And about a month later, when my water broke, and I called in, she encouraged me to labor at home as long as possible. She cheered me on as I labored all night with back labor. She encouraged me to eat and keep up my strength. 

And when the anesthesiologist came in to consent me for the ‘just in case’ scenario and tried to push an epidural on me, she shooed him away and reminded me what I’d wanted to accomplish- a birth without an epidural. She believed in me. And I freaking did it. I labored so effectively because I moved around as I pleased. I pushed my baby out so easily because I used different positions that worked for me. There was not a moment that I felt me or my baby were in danger. I actually felt strong and capable the entire time. 

I had an amazingly beautiful and redemptive birth experience. I think it was so great because you weren’t a part of it. I’m glad I didn’t listen to you. I’m glad I was already informed with facts and found a provider who was as well. I hope that you can be open to learning and growing and seeing that birth is a natural process and that women are capable. In your own fear, selfishness, or misinformation, you’re misleading women. And honestly, you’re missing out on what could be many beautiful, fear-free birth experiences because of it.”

I am proud of her. It’s hard to switch providers, and especially after a provider is telling you all of the risks, whether they are true or not, and the things can happen to you. So, good job, anonymous mother. We are all proud of you over here.

Mari: And a shout out to that nurse. I love good nurses. They don’t know they are so powerful.

Julie: Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. Just having somebody that believes in you just makes such a big difference in your birth. I love it. Alright, Mari, you are up.

Mari: Okay. We have a long one here, so I’m going to pick and choose a bit, but the backstory is, we have a mom who moved to the US from China at 26 weeks, and she was pregnant with Mono Di twins, which is monoamniotic, so identical twins that share the same amniotic sac. 

As a result, she was hit with all of the different risks to having this type of pregnancy and spent multiple times a week, four to five times a week in a variety of appointments needing to go to maternal fetal medicine appointments, ultrasounds, and NST’s. It filled her with so much fear and so much stress and worry in those waiting rooms. She also had to go ahead and get daily injections of blood thinner because one of the twins had little blood flow. They also misdiagnosed her at one point. 

She ended up having extreme pain with preterm labor contractions, which were all ignored leading to her water having been broken and the doctor suggesting she go back home when the nurse didn’t agree. She ends up actually being back into the hospital and having a crash C-section because baby A’s cord was prolapsed and her foot was coming out. 

Her doctor was not there when she gave birth. The doctor was not there at the six-week check-up. Her doctor last spoke to her the day before her twins were whisked away into the NICU. This mama shares that she was angry, that she felt like she had to listen to her doctor, that this was the most traumatic and physically painful experience of her entire life, that she’s angry that she put his foolish judgment above everybody else’s, that she didn’t try harder to find a different provider and that she felt so scared and confused. 

“It’s been six years, and I can barely speak about how traumatized I was by my experience.”

The second time around, she writes a letter to the second doctor. She interviewed six different practices and even started with a midwife group, but at 14 weeks, she felt compelled to find someone else. She finally goes to another doctor, and long story short, she ends up being timed and having to have a C-section 12 hours after her water broke because she was only 4 centimeters. She wasn’t progressing fast enough for her VBAC, so ultimately, she ended up having to have another Cesarean while the doctors were blasting Maroon 5 and chatting with the resident about their upcoming holiday plans. 

“During one of the most meaningful moments of my life, giving birth to my son, I shouldn’t feel like I wasn’t allowed to cry or show any emotion for embarrassment of having you and the resident sitting there laughing about stitches tighter and straighter, not feeling like I had any say in wanting the experienced surgeon to do my second C-section because you, as my doctor, had already given your permission to the resident.” 

She never consented to the Cesarean. She is now pregnant with her fourth baby, her third pregnancy because she had twins the first time around, and she is in a better state. The last two pregnancies happened in New Jersey. This state, she has a wonderful doctor who is 100% VBAC supportive, listens to her, addresses every single concern and questions she has with compassion and expertise. She’s only 18 weeks pregnant, but she is so grateful for the resources like The VBAC Link that are teaching her how to prepare and find the right support. 

“Thank you for such a wonderful prompt to write down all of the things that have been left unsaid.”

Whew, mama. That’s tough, especially when you have a high-risk pregnancy in the US. You’re treated so differently, especially if you come from another place outside the US.

Julie: Yeah. 

Allie: The theme of OB’s not conducting themselves professionally in the OR continues with us next letter.

Julie: Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Allie: “To the OB who ‘mistakenly’ scheduled a C-section instead of an ECV and after the unsuccessful ECV said, ‘I'll see you tomorrow for your C-section,’ you should know that your bedside manner is horrible and the only image you are projecting is a money-driven one. 

To the OB who I consulted with before I went into labor: 

Thanks for telling me my baby would die if I didn't have a C-section before going into labor.

To the OB who performed my C-section: 

Nice to meet you. You never introduced yourself. You never told me what was happening to me or my body because you were too preoccupied talking about your recent trip to Nicaragua. Is your job that mundane that you can't even provide a shred of humanity? Thanks for putting this mama into a full-blown panic attack and causing her to miss out on the birth of her first child. Glad you made your money that day. 

To the nurses and hospital staff that day: 

Thanks for treating me like an object void of feelings. 

To my family physician who scolded me after the birth of my child for choosing to travel two hours from home the day before she was born and said I would never VBAC my second child and to just ‘accept’ that I would need a C-section: 

I did it ON My OWN. 

To every practitioner / ‘professional’ who frowns or looks down upon women having a voice or opinion and advocating for themselves during pregnancy and labor, and really at any other point in life:

I'd ask you, why did you choose this profession? You are stealing the miracle of pregnancy and birth from women on the daily.”

Julie: Dang. That’s some serious stuff. I would echo that sentiment. Like why-- I don’t know. I could go on a tangent, but I won’t. Meagan, I love this next one. Well, I don’t love it. It’s short, but it’s really sad. 

Meagan: It’s short. They say, “I don't have any positive feelings about the day he was born,” which breaks my heart. 

Mari: That’s definitely unsaid. So many mamas go through that.

Julie: And yet all we hear is, “Oh my gosh, I’m so glad you have a healthy baby. Aren’t you so glad for being able to have a Cesarean to save your life?” No. No, no, no. I mean, yes. We are grateful.

Mari: I just want that mama to know if that mama is tuning in right now-- I just want you to know it’s okay that it wasn’t the best day of your life, and there will be other times that are. And it’s okay to feel that way.

Julie: I agree. Every baby, relationship, and parent-child relationship forms and bonds so differently. You are going to have so many really amazing days with your child. I am really proud of you for putting that out there. That is a hard thing to do. 

Alright, moving on. This next one says,

“I wish I had been more informed before having my son. I wish I had read more books, taken more classes, read more articles, listened to podcasts-- anything to prepare myself for success. I wish I would have done my own research instead of just taking what my provider said as gospel truth. 

As a first-time mom, I wanted to trust them. After all, I had no idea what I was doing! I never learned to advocate for myself. I let my fears take over and swallow me, and because of that immense fear, I let my doctors make decisions for me. I thought they knew best. 

But now, looking back one year later, I feel betrayed. I feel like they didn't give me all the facts. I feel like they did what was easier for them. I feel like they took advantage of a scared first-time mom with a big baby and pushed the C-section on me. I feel like they stole my birth from me. And that’s something I can never get back. It’s something I have to live with every single day.”

That’s hard. That’s some hard stuff. Well, we are running low on time, so why don’t we each-- we only got through half of these, guys. It makes me so sad. But all those who don’t get your stories read today, I want you to know that we have read them. We read them all, and our hearts are with you. We are so proud of you for writing out your experiences, and for being vulnerable, and for tuning in and getting that out. If you haven’t done that already, we encourage you to do the same thing. But I want each of us to go through and pick one more rather short one. 

We can read it, and then I’m going to see a couple of things at the end to kind of just round it off. So, who had the last one? I forgot.

Meagan: You. You did.

Julie: That’s why. I’m like, “Alright, let’s each take one more.” Mari, do you have one?

Mari: I just had the next one up, which was pretty long as well. But, I think that I want to highlight some of the things that this mama shared about when you are having a condition during your pregnancy that you have outside of pregnancy as well, and how it’s very important that sometimes there isn’t enough research about that condition during pregnancy. You might be treated in some default fashion. 

This mama was facing what’s called Mature Onset Diabetes of the Young II (MODY II). Basically, the doctor treated her as if she was just regular gestational diabetes and that she would have a big baby, and that she needed to go to a lot of maternal fetal appointments.  Unfortunately, this mama ended up having to get that C-section as well and has a lot of thoughts creeping in, but of course, people kept telling her that, “You have a healthy baby, and that’s all that matters.” 

She felt robbed as though she had it delivered. She wanted The VBAC Link to know that she is so supportive for this platform because she is pregnant with baby number two. She’s 28 weeks pregnant and found the right doctor, found her voice, knows how to advocate for herself and is pursuing alternative birth options, asks the hard questions, and God-willing will have her VBAC.”

So, thank you, Mama, for sharing that.

Meagan: Yes, thank you.

Julie: Yes, thank you so much.

Allie: Okay, I will go.

“My OB told me before (during a prenatal appointment) that I was strong and fit and should have no problems, but a quick, vaginal delivery. When I had a long labor that ended in a C-section, I felt like a failure because of this belief. That my body failed. I wasn't fit and strong enough. It took so, so much for me to get over these feelings and the feeling that it was my fault that I had a C-section. I had a C-section with my first child. And I am strong. And my body is amazing. 

To the MFM who told me that I probably couldn’t deliver a large baby and l had a 60% chance of a successful VBAC: 

I had my VBAC. My baby was 9 lbs 2 oz. Oh, and he was sunny-side up. And the ‘risk’ was worth it. So, there.”

Meagan: And a fist pump right there.

Julie: I love that. So, there.

Meagan: This one says:

“I want on-call doctors to understand that we can have VBACs. Please educate and stay up-to-date on current medical journals. I want on-call doctors to not dismiss me and write me off as an immediate repeat C-section, especially by not even seeing me unless agreeing to one. 

Please understand by me not allowing that to happen isn't me being stubborn or a troublemaker, but an informed, educated individual in control of her birth. Please see the person first, not the possibility of a surgery. Do not put us in the room closest to the OR ‘just in case,’ don't push an unwanted epidural ‘just in case.’ Don't say baby or I will die as a scare tactic because you think it's easier. I had a beautiful VBAC despite your negativity and doubt. Thanks to my provider for coming in, but please on-call doctors, advocate for patients!”

That gave me the chills.

Julie: Me too. I’m sitting here like, goosebumps!

I think that’s so important to say. Okay, one last one. I’m going to wrap it up with something short and sweet, kind of on a more uplifting and positive point. But the last one that I’m going to read says:

“I felt robbed. I've never told anyone. When the OB tested my skin to see if I could feel the sharp tool, I said, “Yes,” and the anesthesiologist told me that there's no way I could have felt it because it is so sharp, so when they started cutting me I've never screamed so loud or felt so much in my life. They instantly over-medicated me. I woke up puking in my hair. My husband gone. My baby gone. I had no idea if my baby was okay. I never got to hear the first cry. My family saw my baby’s face before I did. I feel robbed.”

I think that’s a really hard thing. I know a lot of my personal doula client-- I almost always know their birth plan just almost automatically because one of the most important things for them is immediate skin-to-skin right away because it is so hard to miss those first moments. I know that I missed it with my baby. I didn’t get to see him for two hours, and that was really, really hard for me, and I think, Meagan, you had a similar experience with your first. 

But because we are running low on time-- I am so sad we weren’t able to get through all of these letters, but I want to bring up something that we go over in our doula course. We teach about how to prevent birth trauma, PTSD and how to make it more likely that your clients will have a more positive birth experience. I think that this advice can go for not only doulas, but birth partners, sisters, mothers, whoever is in your support room, and also nursing staff and providers and OB/GYN ‘s. Everyone, listen up because there are three important things that you can do to best prevent trauma in the birth room.

Make sure that the three S’s are met. The three S’s are: seen, safe, and soothed.

Seen: mirror and observe your client. Repeat back to them what you think they are saying, but without giving your opinion on it and make sure that they are involved in the decision making. Listening makes a big difference here. You can kind of see that looking back on the stories we just read.

Safe is the second S. Overall, communication is so important to create a feeling of safety. If you are uncertain if they feel safe, just ask them, “Do you feel safe right now?” Sometimes, that question can open up an avenue in order to actually help them feel safe.

And then the third S is soothe. This is doula 101 stuff, but empathize with them. Speak affirming words. Use comfort measures and do all the things that you can to help them feel soothed and supported during labor. Science has shown-- there are actually studies to support this, that when those three S’s are met, parents are less likely to describe their birth as traumatic, less likely to have postpartum mood disorders, and less likely to develop postpartum PTSD. So, as you’re listening to this-- mamas, birth partners, all members of the birth team, make sure that your birthing parents feel seen, safe, and soothed.

If you do all three of those, then I think you are on a pretty good track to making sure that you are taking great, great care of them.

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story. For all things VBAC, including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Julie and Meagan’s bios, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.