The VBAC Link

Happy New Year! We are kicking off 2023 with a podcast filled with doulas. Meagan is joined by one of our VBAC Link-trained doulas, Sarah, to welcome our guest, Holly. Holly is a wife, mama, RN, doula, and placenta encapsulator. 

Holly’s first birth was a planned Cesarean due to breech presentation. Her second birth was a hospital VBAC with a long labor. Her most recent birth was a redemptive, quick, and dreamy HBAC (almost in her toilet)!

Holly shares her tips on keeping a positive mindset through weeks of prodromal labor and how she was able to fight doubts and fears to achieve her beautiful HBAC. 

Additional Links

Holly’s Doula Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Hello and happy 2023. I cannot believe we are starting a new year off, but I can’t wait to see where this year takes us. Today, we have Sarah. She is back today. She actually was on a little bit ago, but we had some time craziness so we are having her back on for a full episode. So welcome, Sarah. 

Sarah: Hello, glad to be back. 

Meagan: So happy to have you back. So fun to be cohosting with our VBAC doulas. If you guys did not know, we have a VBAC doula certification for VBAC and we are going to start hearing from some of our VBAC doulas because I’m going to have them on here and there as cohosts. I’m so excited to have them on, share where they’re at, and of course, have them be a part of this amazing community too. Sharing these stories and hearing these stories on the podcast seriously lights my day up. So on those days where I’m like, “Okay, we’ve got 4 hours of podcasts.” 

A lot of people might dread 4 hours of work, but I don’t see it as 4 hours of work. I see it as 4 hours of inspiration and motivation for me to keep going on The VBAC Link and to share these stories with you. 

Review of the Week

We have our friend Holly today and she’s going to share her VBAC story but I’m going to have Sarah read a Review of the Week before we do. 

Sarah: Okay. This review is from Apple Podcasts and I hope I’m saying this username correctly, but it’s Kyeiwaaglover. 

Meagan: Yeah. When I saw that I was like, “Kyoa?”

Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover, I believe, and it says, “As a doula, I’m grateful for platforms like this to refer to clients and for me to learn as well. “

Meagan: I love that. It’s kind of fun. Today, we’ve got me, Sarah, Holly, and then Kyeiwaaglover– I don’t even know how to say it. 

Sarah: Kyeiwaaglover. That’s what I’m going with. 

Meagan: Yes. We are all doulas. A fun background story about Holly is she is actually a registered nurse by trade but after her VBAC, she found the passion like a lot of us and has since become a doula and a placenta encapsulator. I think it’s fun how we’re sharing a VBAC story, but together, even with the review, I didn’t even make that connection until you just said that, but we’re all doulas today so yay for doulas. I’m so excited to get into Holly’s story. 

Holly’s Stories

Meagan: Okay everybody. Holly, thank you so much for taking the time today to share your story. I know you’ve got your little one in a wrap strapped to your chest. So stinking adorable. How old is your baby? 

Holly: He is 7 weeks today. 

Meagan: 7 weeks!

Holly: So we’re going on 2 months. 

Meagan: Just really little and he was trying to turn into the camera. 

Holly: I know. 

Meagan: Well, we would love to turn the time over to you to share your VBAC story. And of course, your C-section story too if you would like.

Holly: Absolutely. I have a bit of a journey with my birth stories. My first daughter is 4.5 now, so I was pregnant a little over 5 years ago with her. I was finishing up nursing school. I was really into the medical model of care at that point just being in nursing school and getting all of that information. 

During my pregnancy, it was my last semester, and I was with a midwife at a clinic. I overall had a great pregnancy and great care. I finished nursing school, took my MCLETS, finished everything, and so we were in the last few weeks of pregnancy and I got to about 41 weeks with her and we had those tests at the end so you can check to see their growth. 

Meagan: It’s like a third-trimester ultrasound where they go through everything. 

Holly: You go overdue and they’re like, “Let’s make sure everything’s okay.” Blah blah blah. A bunch of time went by and they can’t tell you anything in the ultrasounds, and then my midwife had called me later that evening and she’s like, “You know, your baby is actually breech and these are my recommendations,” and so on. At that point, I still had prepared myself for a natural birth. I didn’t want to do an epidural. I wanted as few interventions as possible. I didn’t even think of that as a thing that could happen, so it just tore my heart out. 

At 41 weeks, you’re so emotional and so full of hormones so it took a long time for me to process it. I went and had a consult with an OB at the local hospital and they were like, “Well, we could try turning the baby, but at this point, you’re 41 weeks. There’s a lot of risk to it.” They’re like, “Basically, your only option is a C-section.” I’m like, “Okay.”

I didn’t have all of the education and resources that I have now, so at that point, I had to put a lot of trust into the medical system and took their word for it and we had a planned C-section with her. But I was 41.5 weeks by the time we actually scheduled it, so it wasn’t an emergency. They were like, “If you go into labor, it’s an emergency, but we’ll still schedule it for 3 or 4 days from now.”

Overall, my C-section went really well. I was able to have my baby skin-to-skin right away. She never left me. We stayed together which was awesome. I had a really good recovery from that, thank God. There weren’t huge traumas with it but once I got pregnant with my second, I realized how actually traumatic emotionally it was for me, so it took a lot of healing and processing to be able to give myself that second chance and to go for my first VBAC. 

About a year and a half later, I got pregnant with my second daughter. She is now 2.5 years old. At that point, I really had gotten into more– I was still working as a nurse and I had really gotten into more of natural living and natural solutions and just a holistic view of health. I had hired a doula. At that point, I was interviewing providers at the hospital and I hired a doula who was going through midwifery school. 

She was just a wealth of knowledge. I had a doula with my first baby, but it wasn’t what I had expected out of a doula, unfortunately. But, my doula with my second baby was absolutely incredible. She just provided me with so much information and was there for me to support me, to help me through all of my emotions with my first birth. So talking with her about the providers I had interviewed and told her, “I still don’t feel comfortable choosing one.” She was like, “Well, have you given home birth a thought or hiring a midwife?” I’m like, “Well, there are no midwives at the hospital that will take me because they can’t take VBACs at the hospital.”

And in Minnesota, home midwives are allowed to take on VBACs at home. They don’t have huge restrictions there on the home birth midwives so I’m like, “Okay, well maybe. I don’t know. There are these risks that I’m not sure if I’m comfortable with that right now.” She’s like, “Well, either way, you can always just interview one and get the information so you have both sides so you know which way you want to choose and you are fully informed.” I said, “Yeah. You’re right.” 

So my husband and I interviewed a couple of midwives. One of them was a little iffy with taking us on. She didn’t seem very comfortable with VBAC which was fine and another one was pretty good. She was more medically minded and then I interviewed a third midwife. She had a lot of experience with VBACs and was just overall matched really well with us. We ended up choosing to home birth with my second baby. 

That whole prenatal care with our home birth midwife was incredible. The prenatal care alone was just so different from a clinical setting. I was about 40 weeks at that point and we were going for our home birth. You get to that 40-week mark and you’re just like, “Okay. When is this going to happen? I’m so ready to have this baby,” but also trying to trust your body and knowing when that time is right. 

So I was a couple of days away from 42 weeks and labor happened spontaneously. I labored at home with my doula and then my midwife came later on. My husband was there and my mom was there. I labored for a total of 24 hours and we ended up suspecting after checking my cervix and checking baby’s position that she was stuck. Her head was flexed, so her chin was up instead of tucked down to her chest, so she was stuck on my pelvic bone for quite a while. 

After assessing the risks and everything, we ultimately decided to transfer to the hospital. The hospital was 5 minutes from us so it was one of those things where it was comforting knowing that it was so close, but also, in this pregnancy and in this experience with my second, I really had a hard time letting go of control and really trusting my body fully 100%. I think that also kind of affected the way I labored and my thought process. 

We transferred to the hospital and had a really great resident doctor. She was incredible. She was like, “You know, do your thing. Do what you need to do. Just let us know what you need.” The OB that was there was a different story, but I ended up laboring there for about 8 more hours and that included about an hour and a half of pushing. I had my first VBAC at the hospital and she came out just screaming and crying, eyes wide open. I just remember crying and saying, “We did it. We did it.” I couldn’t believe it. I was just in shock and it was very healing. 

But later on, I found that there were still parts of it that were a little traumatic for me and I had things to heal from with that birth too even though I had successfully had a VBAC, it was different and not fully what I expected. 

So that leads me to my third and final baby here. We again decided to plan for a home birth. My daughter was a little less than 2 and my other daughter a little less than 4 when we got pregnant with him. Again, we decided to home-birth and my husband was like, “Are you sure? Last time we ended up going to the hospital. Do you think that’s just going to be easier if we just plan for that this time?”

I said, “No. Absolutely not. We’re having this baby at home.” My mindset was so different. I started as a doula after my second daughter was born and I had really gotten into that natural birth and trusting your body and just knowing that our bodies were designed for this. Our bodies were perfectly designed for birth. Yes, there are times when medical intervention is needed, but really, I just was so in this mindset of, “I can do this. This is it. This is my redemption. I know I can do this.” 

I didn’t even have to interview any midwives. I actually hired my doula from my second birth. She had become a midwife and was practicing and I just instantly knew her philosophy and her beliefs surrounding birth were exactly what I needed in my prenatal care and my birth, everything. We started seeing her from about 16 weeks onward and so we had all of our prenatal care at home. It was incredible. She really put everything into my hands which was what I wanted. I wanted control of the tests that we did and that we didn’t do, everything. 

We weren’t going to have an ultrasound to find out the sex but ultimately, my husband and I agreed to have a 20-week ultrasound at 23 weeks. We found out the sex and we were just so surprised and so happy because we were having a boy and if we were having a girl too, of course, we would have been just as happy, but at that point, I could get rid of all my girl clothes and start organizing and getting ready. It was just one of those things that my heart needed. 

So with my midwife that we had, like I said, she really put the control in my hands. I felt so much respect from her and I felt like in every decision I made, I was fully informed. I understood everything. I made the decisions that were best for me and my baby and our family. Leading up to my birth, those few weeks before, we talked about fears and if there was anything I needed to process before my labor. This time I was like, “No. Really, I feel good. I don’t have any fears.” 

There was a part of me that was like, “What if we do transfer to the hospital?” but the other part of me was like, “Don’t worry about that. Put that out. You’ve done it before. You know what to do,” so I put that part out of my head too. I was like, “Nope. We’re having this baby at home.” We actually were planning to move cross country down to South Carolina in September so my midwife was like, “Do you feel okay about this timeline you’re on?” I’m like, “Oh yeah. I’ll go to 42 weeks and I’ll still have 3 weeks before we have to move. It’ll be fine.” She was just like, “I can’t believe you’re fine with that.” 

I’m like, “Yeah. I feel totally good about it. I have so much support.” My husband’s family was coming right after the baby was born. The amount of support we had was exactly what we needed and I’m so thankful for that. 

Near the end of my pregnancy with our son, there were a couple of points where we actually thought he was breech, and those brought back a lot of feelings. I kept telling my midwife throughout my pregnancy, “This pregnancy feels a lot like my first just my cravings and everything.” She was like, “Okay.” We ended up thinking he was breech and I’m like, “Oh great. Here we go.” 

But at that point, I was like, “It doesn’t matter what position he’s in, I’m still letting myself go into labor. If he was breech, I was still going to birth him vaginally and everything.” It didn’t matter to me but it was also like, “Okay, I have to prepare for this if this is a change of plans.” Another midwife locally has a little ultrasound that you can plug into your phone, so we checked quickly to see where his head was just so we could confirm and prepare if needed and she was like, “Yeah, I think he is breech. I think this is his head up here.” She was like, “Let me check a little bit lower,” so we checked a little bit lower, but it turns out that his head was super, super deep in my pelvis. I’m sure I probably was dilated too to maybe 2 or 3 with him because he was just so low in my pelvis that they were feeling his shoulders when they would palpate.

I threw that out of the window. He was head down. We were good to go. The next few weeks, I was about 39 weeks, maybe a little before that, and I started having prodromal labor. I kept referring to it as that and I’d have contractions all day long, all day long, and then I’d go to sleep at night and they’d go away. Nothing would happen. They were fine. They weren’t contractions where I’m like, “Oh man,” trying to breathe through or anything, but they were uncomfortable and they had changed from Braxton Hicks because I had Braxton Hicks throughout my pregnancy too. 

So they had changed. They were stronger and lower. It was just one of those things which messes with your head. You’re like, “Okay. Could this be it? No, probably not. I’m just going to go to sleep,” and when you wake up in the morning, it’s like, “Okay. No baby.” 

Weeks of that and it was just physically exhausting, mentally exhausting and then you get family who are like, “When’s the baby coming?” You’re like, “I don’t know.” You want to tune everyone out, but at the same time, you can still hear them and you get in your own head. That’s why now, with my own clients, I’m like, “Don’t tell anyone your due date. Just don’t. Tell them your birth month. Sometime in August. That is it,” because people mean well and they don’t necessarily mean to be pushy with it, but–

Meagan: I know. 

Holly: –-it’s just one of those things where it doesn’t help. It really doesn’t. And then there was one weekend, I got up and I was 41 and 2 or 3 days. That weekend, I just told my husband, “We just need to go. I need to get out of the house. I need to go out and do things all day long. I don’t want to be here contracting.” He’s like, “Okay. All right. That’s fine.” So we took the girls and we went to my sister’s camper and we were there all day swimming and hanging out. I started having contractions like, “Oh man,” like twinging pains in my cervix. I’m like, “Okay. This is different. Maybe something’s happening. I’m going to be patient and keep myself busy.” 

I went to the bathroom later on around dinnertime. I had actually brought my daughter to the bathroom and I’m like, “Okay, I’ll go too.” I wiped and I’m like, “Oh my god, there’s some mucus plug on my toilet paper. Yes. Things are happening. Okay. Back to trusting my body and knowing that everything is happening at the right time.” 

I went out, of course, and told my husband. He was like, “Okay. Do we need to go?” I’m like, “No. We’re fine. We’re going to stay here. We’re going to finish our day then go home.” We went home and there were more contractions. It felt like there were more. Actually, a week before this– I forgot to mention this– my midwife was like, “Stop referring to it as prodromal labor. Think of it as early labor.” I’m like, “Okay. I’ve been in early labor for 2 weeks now. That’s not helping, but okay.” 

Meagan: Well, I will say this though. Sometimes when we tell our clients, “Oh, it looks like it’s prodromal labor,” they’re like, “So you’re telling me that I’m not laboring?” So maybe if we change it to early labor, it’s just– I don’t know. Like you said, it’s just a really long early labor. 

Holly: Yeah. I know. And it kind of helps. It’s all a process. It’s all doing something. It’s not for nothing. My body was doing– I don’t know. Maybe he wasn’t in the right position where my body wanted to birth him, but he wasn’t finding the right position. 

Meagan: That’s a lot of the time the reason why prodromal labor happens because our uterus is brilliant and it’s trying to work and get our baby into the right spot before labor begins. 

Holly: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. So much yes. So the next morning came around, I’m like, “Okay. I slept all night. That’s great, but nothing happened. Okay. What are we going to do today?” So we drove 45 minutes north to my dad’s house and my husband was like, “Do you think this is too far?” I’m like, “No, this is fine.” I thought this was going to be our last time at my dad’s house before we had a baby and then move. I’m like, “This is what I need.” 

So we spent the day on the lake swimming and just hanging out. I still had those contractions and twinging. I’m like, “Okay. This is good. We’re just having a nice time,” and then we went home and had dinner and went on a walk with our girls. I think it was that night, we had a couple of friends over. They were fixing something in my husband’s car. I went back inside and got my girls to sleep. I went to the bathroom and I noticed even more mucus plug that night. 

I was like, “Okay. Awesome. We’re on the right path still.” I went to sleep that night. Actually, early, early Monday– because that was a Sunday night– so early Monday morning at 3:00 AM, I was waking up to these stronger contractions and I was sleeping, but I was breathing through them. I could tell that it was more than what it was before. That morning comes and I told my husband. He actually had an interview for a new job that day virtually. He was like, “Well, I have to be at this interview.” I’m like, “Okay. It’s fine. We’re not going to have a baby yet.” 

I went throughout that day and I had these contractions where I was breathing through them. I was stopping what I was doing and shushing my girls and being like, “I need this moment to get through this, and then we’re good.” My midwives came over to check on me and my contractions stopped. They went away. 

I was like, “Okay. This is obviously my body telling me that I need alone time.” They left and my contractions started coming back again. My girls were around. They are 4 and 2. They were just nuts at this point. It’s kind of like my body knew to pull back for a while and then I actually went to Target with my mom Monday afternoon. We bought a rocking chair. I’m like, “I need a chair. This is going to happen soon. “ I wasn’t going to get one because we were moving and then I’m like, “Nope. We’re just going to do it.” 

We were walking around Target and I’m just having these contractions and stopping and she goes, “Are you sure we’re okay to be here?” I’m like, “It’s fine. Everything’s fine. It’s not happening yet.” I’m just in denial. We get home and we do our nightly walks with the girls and I’m curb walking and just trying to get things to keep going and get stronger. I texted my midwife. I’m like, “Yeah, they’re like 10 minutes apart. Definitely stronger and lower and more painful, so yeah. We’ll see what happens later.” She’s like, “Okay. Whatever.”

That night, we were outside and my daughter Hannah is my two-year-old. She’s like, “I’m ready to go to bed.” I’m like, “Okay. Let’s go.” We get her inside and my husband and my other daughter were outside playing still. I got her to bed and we just cuddled in her bed and got all of that oxytocin flowing. Then after that, my contractions were really starting to pick up and started to get a little closer together. They were about 8 minutes at this point. I started texting my husband. I’m like, “Where are you? Where’s Callie? You need to get her to bed.” 

I called my husband’s parents and I’m like, “Can you pray for me? I want you to pray over me now. I feel like something’s going to happen here soon and maybe tonight’s the night.” So just having that prayer really helped me calm down and really settle down. Then after that, my husband comes in with my daughter. She’s not wanting to go to sleep and keeps coming out of her room. I told him, I’m like, “Okay.” I don’t know what came over me, but I’m like, “You need to get her to bed right now. She cannot be out here anymore. I can’t do this.” 

He goes, “Okay, all right.” Finally, she goes to sleep and stays in her room. He’s in there with her until she falls asleep. So I’m like, “Okay. I’m going to make myself some toast and a snack and some tea and relax a little bit. Maybe just go to sleep.” So I’m in my kitchen and all of a sudden, this contraction just comes over my whole entire body. I’m like, “Oh man. This is it. This is the one. This is the start of it.” Finally, I took myself out of denial. I’m like, “Okay. Things are going to happen.” At the top of this contraction, I’m standing at the kitchen sink, and my water breaks. 

My husband is in my daughter’s room. I don’t have my phone on me and I’m just like, “Oh my god. Oh my god.”

Meagan: Like, “Okay. This isn’t going to stop. I don’t think this is going to stop.” 

Holly: I know. I’m like, “This is real now. My water broke. This is actually happening.” It took my water breaking for me to actually believe it at this point. Thankfully, I was actually standing over a rug by my kitchen sink. I’m like, “Okay. This is great. I’m on a rug, but I want to move. I don’t want to walk down to my room.” I stand there for a minute and I’m like, “Oh my god. Oh my god. Jason!” My husband’s name is Jason. He doesn’t hear me of course because he’s in my daughter’s room and so then I finally waddle all down the hallway down to our room. I get my phone and I text him. I said, “My water broke.” He texts back, “Great!”

I don’t know what he was thinking. I called my midwife and I was really calm. I was like, “Hey, my water broke and things are happening.” She goes, “Okay, great. How far apart are your contractions?” I’m like, “They’re probably 6-8 minutes, 8ish minutes I guess.” She goes, “Okay, well why don’t you time them for the next half hour and then text me and let me know how they are?” So I’m like, “Okay, I have some time.” 

Little did I know, she was actually texting my husband, “I’m on my way. I’ll be there as soon as I can.” She’s like, “I don’t want to miss your birth.” My husband finally comes out of the room. I wasn’t panicking but moreso excited and being like, “Okay. It’s happening. This is it. This is what we’ve been preparing for and waiting for.” At this point, I was just emotional every day about wanting to have my baby and not be pregnant anymore. 

He was like, “Okay, great. What do you need from me?” At this point, I’m already cleaning up our room, and not because we were having our midwives but mostly because I wanted our room to be prepared. I had everything set up like my twinkle lights and my affirmations, everything. So at that point, my contractions were 3-4 minutes apart. So as soon as my water broke, they really got going. I was really starting to labor through them now and breathing and moaning and doing all of the labor things. I found my ideal position of laboring. I was on my knees hunched over my bed because my bed was just on the floor at that point.

My husband was telling me, “What can I do? How can I help?” With my first VBAC, I had this weird, sharp, dull pain. It was so hard to describe. It was on my right leg from my butt all the way down to my heel. It was awful. It never went away. I couldn’t find anything that made it comfortable, so I’m like, “Can you just massage my legs? I have that same pain this time through every contraction.” I think that was the only fearful thing. I didn’t want to have that this time and of course, I did. So I’m like, “Just massage my legs,” so he grabbed some [towels] and he was massaging my leg through every contraction in between and then he was doing counterpressure on my back. 

At this point, things were really picking up very fast. So my water broke at about 8:40ish and then my midwife and her assistant midwife and then another student got there at about 9:40 because she lived about 45 minutes away. So then they got there and I was really in labor land and just really in the thick of it and I just remember thinking, “Why am I not getting a break? These contractions just keep coming quicker and quicker and I’m not having as much time in between. Why am I not getting a break?”

She goes, “Well, things are happening fast.” I’m like, “Okay, all right,” and still not thinking anything of it. I was in the on-my-knees position laboring which felt super great and my husband was doing counterpressure perfectly through every single contraction, bless his heart. At one point, I’m like, “Okay, I’ve got to get up. I’ve got to go pee. It’s been a while.” They’re like, “Okay, you’ve got to get up. Let’s go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet for a little bit. That’ll be good for labor, for dilating, for everything.”

I’m like, “Okay. I can do that.” It took all my might to stand up because his head was in my pelvis and– I don’t know. Some women labor standing up and push and everything. I just cannot even imagine because I stood up and I just waddled. I’m like, “This is the weirdest feeling and so uncomfortable.” I got to the bathroom which is attached to our room thankfully. I got on the toilet and I remember being like, “I can’t pee.” In my previous labor, that same thing happened and they actually gave me a catheter and took out a ton of pee which eventually actually helped my baby come down. 

So this time that happened, I’m like, “Oh no, we’re going to have to put a catheter in.” She goes, “I don’t know. Just give it some time.” We were on the toilet for maybe 10 minutes and I had a couple of contractions that felt good this time. They didn’t hurt. They just felt like my body was– it’s so hard to describe and now, looking back, I’m like, “Okay. That was my body pushing.” So this time I really got to experience that my body was actually doing it. I wasn’t pushing. I wasn’t doing anything. These contractions were just pushing my baby out. 

She was like, “Why don’t you just put your hand down there and just see if you can feel baby?” To my surprise, I’m like, “Oh my god. His head was maybe a knuckle deep.” I’m sorry if that’s too much information. But he was so close. He was right there. I’m like, “Oh my god. I’m doing it. My body is doing it. He’s doing it. We’re so close.” I had another very light contraction that didn’t feel like it did anything at all. I’m like, “I don’t know what that was, but I’m sure it was my body just getting a little bit of a break.” 

Still, at that point, I didn’t think I was about to birth him, but another contraction came and I put my hand down. This contraction came on so suddenly and my body just was pushing. All of a sudden, I felt my baby’s head emerge. My hand was over the top of his head. I was still on the toilet and I was like, “Oh my god. He’s coming right now. I need to get off of this toilet. He cannot be born into the toilet. That cannot happen.” 

My midwife was in front of me beside the toilet and my husband was behind me. He was doing the counterpressure, so I told him, “You have to lift me up.” He was like, “Okay. Here’s a stool back here.” I’m like, “No, I can’t sit on a stool right now. You just need to hold me. He’s coming. He’s coming right now.” I told my midwife, “You have to catch him.” Our bathroom is tile. I’m like, “He can’t hit the floor.” I mean, this is all coming out super quickly at this point. Things were just happening fast. 

So then his head was born and then my body stopped, and then it started contracting again and his whole body just came out. My midwife swooped him up and it was very quick. She brought him right up to my chest and he was right there with me. It was just like, “Oh my god.” I couldn’t believe how quickly he came out and how my body had done so much work at that point. At first, he wasn’t crying. He was actually very pale and floppy. It gives you a little bit of a panic. I’m calling out to him. I’m saying his name like, “Your mom’s here. We’re here. We love you.” Yeah. 

And then I saw one of the midwives give the Ambu bag to my midwife because it had been about a minute at that point and he hadn’t quite pinked up and cried yet. We were just kind of giving him the time he needed. In my heart, I knew that he would be okay. I knew that he just needed some time and that he just came out so quickly. He was stunned. So just over a minute came and he started crying. They come and they’re born and you’re like, “Oh my god,” like, yes but then that first cry, and when they make that face and you’re like, “Oh my god. Okay. He’s here. We did it. Everything’s okay.” 

It was just amazing how most of the time at a hospital if that were to happen– I say most of the time, but not always– they want to help them breathe. They want to suction them. They want to bag them. They want to do all of these things to help them breathe and we really just gave him that time that he needed to come into his body and be there with us. It wasn’t traumatic for us at all. I think if someone would have put a bag on him or suctioned him, that would have been more traumatic than this experience. So he came to and he got pink and started crying. We were just holding him and oh my gosh. 

It was a different feeling than my first VBAC. I truly believed in my body’s ability and my baby. We prayed so much about having our baby at home and we just felt so safe. My husband was there behind me. He was crying and I was crying. Everyone was crying at this point. My midwife and I were just so close. She is one of my really good friends too so it just made it that much more special. 

Meagan: Such an intimate time and everyone was probably feeling all of the things. That’s how it was at my birth too. Everyone’s watched you work so hard and go through all of this. Now you’re here. You just did it so the emotions are high. 

Holly: Oh yeah. I just remember, they were like, “Do you want to sit down on the floor and get comfortable?” I’m like, “No. I just want to go to my bed.” “Are you sure? You just had a baby.” “I know. I just want to go to my bed. That’s where I want to be.” That was a big reason why I wanted to birth at home. I just wanted to be in my bed. So I got in my bed. 

Another thing that we had actually thought near the end of my pregnancy was that there could have been a hiding twin where you hear with babies that are either really big or maybe there is a twin in there or something. I had a lot of fluid and he took up the space that he really wanted, so I started having these cramps again and she goes, “Do you mind if I actually listen?” No, I don’t think she actually listened, but then when she felt it was like, “No, it’s the placenta.” The clot behind the placenta was the hard spot we were feeling because my placenta was anterior. She goes, “Okay. I don’t think there’s another baby.” I’m like, “Oh god. I hope not. I’m not having another baby.” But no. 

Meagan: That would be a surprise. 

Holly: I know. I’m like, “No. That’s not going to happen.” I don’t know if that was intuitively or I just didn’t want it to happen, but I’m like, “No.” 

And so about a half hour went by and then I was able to birth my placenta. I had my midwife assist me with it a little bit just because I hadn’t done that with my second and because at the hospital, they managed it which actually wasn’t what I wanted either so I didn’t have that experience of naturally birthing my placenta yet, so I was just like, “Can I just have your assistance?” and she helped me with that. It came out perfectly and it was really cool because being a placenta encapsulator, I’m like, “I really want to assess and look at my own placenta,” and so I was able to do that. It was perfect. It looked great. My amniotic sac was just huge. I mean, you could just tell I had lots of water in there. He was actually only 7 pounds, 12 ounces so he was my smallest baby. 

But yeah. My first was 7 pounds, 15 ounces and then my second with my VBAC was 8 pounds, 9 ounces. So not a huge difference, super small, but I’m like, “Wow.” My husband and I had a bet that he would name him if he was under 7 pounds and I would name him if he was over 8 pounds. I’m like, “He’s for sure going to be over 8 pounds. I’ve got this.” No, he won that one but I actually still named him. 

Sarah: That’s an interesting way to choose who gets to pick the name. 

Holly: I know. And really, I knew that either way it goes, I still want the name that I want and he loved the name that I picked too. I’m like, “Okay, fine.” Since we couldn’t agree on it, we made a bet. 

Meagan: I love that. That’s so fun. 

Holly: Yeah. It was just such a good experience and it healed my first birth. It healed my second birth and it was just the most redemptive, healing birth I could ask for. It was the cherry on top of my birth experiences really. It was just amazing how I went from my C-section and then I went to my home birth transfer to the hospital but still had my VBAC and then had my VBAC at home on my terms and in my own space with the people that I chose to be there. 

Meagan: Yeah. You’ve kind of experienced a whole slew of outcomes which is fun and I’m assuming it will help you in your doula career too if you do have a home birth transfer client, you can say, “I get it. I’ve been here. This is what we’re going to do when we get there,” and help them along the way. 

Holly: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It’s really shaped me into the person that I am today with my birth work. 

Meagan: Yes. Well, huge congrats. 

Holly: Thank you. 

Sarah: I think the most beautiful part of your story is your ability to really trust your body and I think a lot of moms underestimate that mindset concept. You worked on it. 

Meagan: It does. 

Holly: Yeah. It makes a huge difference. With my second, I tried, but there was still a part of me that was holding onto the what-ifs and I think that’s partly due to when you have a C-section, you get that doubt put into you and I didn’t even labor with my first. We went straight to a C-section, so it was like a first baby all over again and not even knowing what to expect at all even though I had a baby already. 

Sarah: Yeah. I think that’s one of the harder things to really try to separate our births and especially as people that have had Cesareans to really dislocate that experience from our VBACs moving forward. 

Holly: Yes. Every birth is so different. Even within the same woman, your births can be so, so different. Babies are so different. It’s amazing. It can be so much of the same, but so, so different. I went from a 36-hour labor and birth to 2 hours and 10 minutes from start to finish. Well, early labor was weeks, but I don’t count that. 

My water broke and then 2 hours and 10 minutes later, he was born. It was just so fast. It wasn’t too fast where I couldn’t process it because I’m like, “As long as it’s under 12 hours, I’ll be happy.” It was just so fast. 

Meagan: I would love to know if there are any suggestions you would give for our listeners on getting to that place with your mindset. What tips would you suggest for getting into that mindset because it can be really, really hard? 

Holly: Yes. One aspect of it is you look at social media and if you are following accounts that aren’t giving you positive, good information, I think that can be really hard. For me in the beginning, I started unfollowing all of these accounts that were not good for me and just started following accounts that were sharing positive birth stories and videos and all of the good things that I needed to fill my mind with. It made a really big difference for me. I watched birth videos with my daughters every day because at first, I really wanted them there, but they were both sleeping and that’s what I needed in the end. 

But yeah. I think following accounts that give you good information that is positive, watching birth videos that have positive outcomes, and watching things and listening to the things about the birth that you want. I think that just makes a huge difference and helps your mindset. 

Meagan: I love that. Just jumping right into that space and not allowing any of the other things into that space, yeah. Love it. 

Holly: Just connecting with other women and that can be huge too. I’m a very faithful person and we prayed a lot during this pregnancy and through our birth. That’s something that really helped me and just surrendering that I wanted to be in control of everything but surrendering that control too was huge. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. I love it.  I love it so much. I love your picture. I can’t wait for everyone to see it. If you’re listening to it today, head over to our Instagram or Facebook and look at this incredible picture of her holding this sweet, little baby. Oh, it’s beautiful. It is so beautiful. So thank you so much for sharing. 

Holly: Thank you. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I listen to your guys’ podcasts all through my second pregnancy and it made such a big difference to me to hear other women’s stories and different stories. It was so helpful to me, so thank you. 

Meagan: Yes. That’s one of my favorite things. We were talking about it in the beginning. We love having people on that have listened through their whole pregnancy. They’re like, “All of these stories have changed my life. Now I’m going to share my story to help someone change theirs.” I love it so much. Thank you again. Congrats. Sarah, thank you so much for being with us again. So fun and Happy New Year, everybody. Happy New Year. It’s kind of weird to say that right now because it’s October as we are recording. 

Holly: It’ll be here sooner than we know. 

Meagan: It will be here so soon. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.   

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

It’s so hard to believe that 2022 is coming to a close. Today is our last episode of the year! We have had so many inspiring guests on the podcast in 2022 and are so thankful to all of our listeners. 

No topic is off-limits in today’s Q&A episode. Dr. Christine Sterling is a board-certified OBGYN and founder of Sterling Parents. Meagan is here today asking Dr. Sterling questions sent in by our listeners. 

We cannot emphasize enough the importance of interviewing multiple providers, researching evidence-based information, and paying attention to how YOU feel about their responses! 

Additional Links

Dr. Sterling’s Instagram: @drsterlingobgyn

Sterling Parents

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

 

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

 

Meagan: Hello, hello. You guys, this is our last episode of the year. 2022 has come and gone and I cannot believe it. So many things have changed this year as you know. Julie has left the company and I’ve been solo for a little bit. That was a big, big change for us, but I am doing one of our first, I should say one of my first, episodes with a birth professional Dr. Christine Sterling. I cannot wait for this episode to be aired because it’s going to be amazing.

 

Dr. Sterling is a board-certified OBGYN and a founder of Sterling Parents which is a membership that provides the heart-felt support, expert advice, and timeless wisdom people deserve as they grow their families. After becoming a mother herself, she discovered first-hand how little support Western medicine offers to women moving through the life-altering transition into motherhood. Amen to that. It makes me sad. It breaks my heart how little support there is.

 

So now as a mom, she is on a mission and dedicated to ensuring women get the maternal care and support they deserve. Dr. Sterling has developed a signature body, mind, and heart model of care combining cutting-edge science and ancient wisdom with her years of patient care, thousands of births, and long-standing meditation practice.

 

So, Dr. Sterling, we are so happy that you’re here. I am so happy. I still say we. We as in The VBAC Link. I don’t know if you know, but I used to have a partner named Julie. We had been together for years and years and she has just recently left, so I just can’t get out of the ‘I’ and the ‘we’. I’m always going to be a ‘we’.

 

Dr. Sterling: You know what? In medicine, we always talk about the ‘we’ when you are part of a team, so I will oftentimes always use the ‘we’.

 

Meagan: Yes, yes. Thank you so much. Is there anything else that you would like to share that I did not cover, all of the amazing things that you do?

 

Dr. Sterling: I think we will get all into it, but that is the long and short of it.

 

Meagan: The long and short of it. There’s so much because you are so amazing. Okay well then, we will just dive right in.

 

Dr. Sterling: Let’s do it.

 

Meagan: As we were getting questions, a lot of people asked very similar questions. One of the number one questions that people are asking is how do you truly advocate for yourself? What is the best way to advocate for yourself? As a VBAC mom, you can feel very much against the world when you are entering a birth space, and sometimes when you are entering a birth space where there’s an on-call provider like you said, when you work in a team and you don’t know that person and you haven’t really established the relationship of them knowing what you want, it can be hard and with different nurses and all the things. So what would you say is one of the best ways to advocate for yourself as a patient?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I think that sometimes the word ‘advocate’ can sometimes put a lot of pressure onto the individual that, “I need to advocate.”

 

Meagan: “I need to be strong.”

 

Dr. Sterling: Yes, exactly and it feels like this really heavy weight. There’s a mental weight to this, “I have to advocate to get what I need.” I completely understand where that comes from especially when you are wanting a VBAC. It can feel like there are policies going against you and that people aren’t working with you, so I think that the first thing is to hopefully get into a therapeutic relationship with a midwife, a doctor, or a practice of doctors in which there is a collaborative relationship in which advocating isn’t so heavy. It’s a conversation. It is a discussion that you are having with each other.

 

For me, I think that oftentimes physicians and patients are communicating to each other on different levels. We are not really understanding where the other party is coming from and we don’t understand what’s the tape that’s playing in their mind. As a patient, you may be playing this tape of, “They’re trying to get me to have a C-section and the odds are against me and I’ve got to fight my way through it.” And as a physician, you have a whole other tape playing.

 

One of the things I encourage with my members is really, I share the behind the scenes and the thought process that is going on for their OBGYN when they’re having that conversation so that the patient can show up with a perspective and in the space that creates that really strong, collaborative environment. I can go through some of the things that I typically talk to my members about with that, but I like to tell my members, “This is not about you having to advocate so hard for yourself, but rather to invite your provider into a collaborative relationship with you and there are ways that individuals can do that.”

 

I want to caveat that with I wish that it wasn’t something that patients had to do so much. I wish it was something that as physicians, we showed up in that space. A lot of physicians do, but not everybody does. I like to think of it as it’s not the problem of each healthcare provider being, “Oh, you’re bad and you should be showing up and collaborating with patients better.” It is a system problem very much. We have burnt-out physicians. We have hospitals that are coming down on them so we have a system that does not foster a collaborative relationship between patients and there are things that individual patients can do to invite their providers to have a more collaborative relationship.

 

I wish patients didn’t have to do that, but I do think that it can be beneficial.

 

Meagan: For sure. I think sometimes too as a patient coming in, we do know that our providers are burning out a lot of the time. They don’t have a ton of time, so you have a lot that you want to bring to the table, but at the same time, you hold back and restrict that because you don’t want to drill your provider with a million questions. Sometimes the provider, although they really want to answer, they don’t have time to have that conversation.

 

Dr. Sterling: 100% yes.

 

Meagan: It’s not even that they don’t want to, it’s that they can’t because they are seeing 60 patients that day.

 

Dr. Sterling: Oh trust me, we would much rather, much rather—when physicians leave and stop taking insurance and go and do a private practice that is just cash-based, which that’s how some physicians solve the burnout issue is, “You know what? I’m exiting the insurance realm,” because what do they do? They have longer appointments with their patients. They take fewer appointments. That’s what we want. You only want to see 10 patients a day and give each patient 45 minutes. 100%. But you can’t if you take insurance.

 

We are locked into this system that makes us not able to have the type of therapeutic relationship with our patients that all of us at our core want. Some of us have awakened to the fact that the patients aren’t the problem, the system is the problem. Some physicians will say, “Oh, the patient Is asking too many questions and I’m annoyed at the appointment.” But they’re not saying, “You’re not annoyed at the patient,” but that patient was paying whatever amount of money for that appointment and if you had a whole hour with them, you would be so happy to show up and educate.

 

Meagan: Yes, yes. Well then and sometimes too on the patient side of things, we can see it as, “Oh, well my doctor is not supportive. My provider is not supportive because they don’t even want to listen to me or they are very quick to answer.” From a VBAC standpoint, a lot of the time when we’re coming into these providers to ask them these questions, we really want a heartfelt answer.

 

Dr. Sterling: Of course you do.

 

Meagan: We don’t just want to hear ‘yes’ or ‘no’,  so that’s another one of the questions that a lot of people have asked is what are some of the signs or red flags I should be watching out for that maybe my provider although probably wonderful, may not be the best provider for me or for that patient, right?

 

How can someone decipher through that and try to understand that that provider doesn’t have a lot of time as well? There’s this happy medium. What are some red flags or signs that you would say, “That might not be a good provider for you”?

 

Dr. Sterling: Perfect, so there are two main issues here. One, how do we have a conversation about VBAC when we have so little time? I want to address that. The first question though is, what are the red flags? How do you know if you have the right provider to support you in having a VBAC? This is actually really, really simple and very easy to do.

 

What you’re going to do is you’re going to go to your provider and you’re going to say, “What do you think about VBAC?” You’re going to be quiet. You’re not going to lead them to that you want a VBAC. Nothing. And just let them talk. If you have a provider who is like, “You know, VBACs makes me really nervous. I’ll do them but they make me really nervous and I’ve been burned. I’ve had some bad experiences.” Or if you have someone who’s like, “I love VBAC. When I get a pregnant person who has a quote-on-quote ‘successful VBAC’, it makes me happy. It makes my day.”

 

Those are very different people, right? It’s not that somebody who has that more negative view of VBAC can’t provide you with appropriate medical care, but it’s that whole extra level of your experience. Do you know what I mean? If you are going for a VBAC and you feel like your provider already has the scalpel in your hand, it puts extra stress and extra pressure on you to advocate for yourself whereas the person who is in a relationship with someone who loves a VBAC is like, “We’re doing it together. We’re collaborating.”

 

Also, when that provider who loves VBAC and who is gungho with you says, “You know what? We’ve got to call it. Let’s do it.” You come to that from a place of, “You know what? I trust this person. I know she wanted this for me and I trust that what she’s telling me right now that I really do need—”

 

Meagan: It is best.

 

Dr. Sterling: It is best.

 

That’s why I think you just ask a question. Stay very quiet. Don’t let them know how you feel about VBAC or that you want a VBAC and you just let them tell you their perspective. Both providers can provide excellent medical care, but you want to be in an environment with someone who’s into it and who’s excited about VBAC.

 

Meagan: Yeah, who’s just going to create that extra level of experience because like you said, this provider over here may be more hesitant and is quote-on-quote going to let you ‘try’ but may not have that extra oomph, energy, and positivity in your experience but you still might get your VBAC with that provider. That doesn’t mean that they’re not totally unsupportive. We talk about tolerance and stuff like that, but yeah. This other provider over here may be the perfect provider for your experience.

 

Dr. Sterling: Exactly. There are really great physicians who have attempted VBACs themselves and had bad experiences. The reality is that physicians are human beings and we bring our experiences to the table. Too, ideally, we would maybe do a little less than that but that’s just the reality of human beings. We are bringing our experiences to the table. If we’ve been burned, it can be hard to work past that.

 

Meagan: Well and just like you were saying at the beginning, that provider might be playing a different tape in their head and that was based on their experience, right? Okay, I love that. Anything else you want to touch on with that?

 

Dr. Sterling: Oh, so in terms of the VBAC, how do you have this conversation with your provider about VBAC? I want us to look at having the conversation about VBAC over an entire pregnancy. Please do not try to fit it in—it is okay to start talking about VBAC at maybe not your first appointment because there’s so much going on with all of that, but it’s okay to start talking about it in the first trimester. I’m a big proponent of that. I’m a big proponent of and I believe that a lot of pregnant people are carrying around this mental weight of uncertainty and unanswered questions and concerns and worries.

 

For me, part of having the VBAC discussion early is let’s start relieving some of that weight. So that’s really important is if it’s on your mind and if your provider is saying, “You know, we’ll talk about that closer,” just say, “You know what? I get it. I’m so far away from my VBAC. I totally get it but it’s on my mind and I think that it would really help with my stress levels and with my quality of life if I can start having some of these questions answered now so I don’t have to carry them around for my whole pregnancy.”

 

Meagan: Right, yeah. Something that one of our followers asked was about—I’m sure you’ve heard of it—bait and switch where they seem supportive and then at that last minute where you really start talking about it, they kind of shift their gears. Sometimes I feel like if we can do what you said and start talking about it in the first trimester then we may recognize earlier on whether that provider and you are a good match or not because the bait and switch a lot of times feels like it comes at the end where they’re like, “Yeah. Yeah, we’re supportive,” but they’re never having that full conversation.

 

There are so many questions but like you said, there’s a whole pregnancy so we can keep asking these questions at each visit taking a little time that a provider does have and having that to avoid that final trimester, the last few weeks, feeling like your provider just switched on you. So I don’t know if there’s anything that you want to talk about with bait and switch. It seems very negative to talk about people doing a bait and switch but it does happen where providers shift their gears and it sucks to be in that spot at the end.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so the parting line of the OBGYNS—if you’re in the United States and you’re an OBGYN, ACOG encourages VBAC. We want people to VBAC. We want people to VBAC. So what it often is is that you’re kind of getting the parting line at the beginning of pregnancy because it’s far off and it’s like, “Yeah, yeah. We support VBAC. You can do a VBAC,” whatever. And then push comes to shove and you do understand that “Oh, this provider has some more nuance to their support for VBAC.” You know?

 

I think it’s again, it is about talking to them about and asking very—sometimes you want to hear what you want to hear. Sometimes we have to ask the hard questions and ask in a non-leading way because human beings and all of us to some degree are people pleasers. It’s just a natural human behavior thing. So if you can just say, if you can ask more-detailed questions like, “Is there anything about me and what happened to me last time and my personal, medical, and obstetric history that makes you more nervous or reticent to recommending a VBAC?”

Understanding that what you’re getting at there is yes, you’re getting at their medical assessment of what kind of candidate you are for a trial of labor after a C-section, but also, you’re getting an idea of what are they going to bring up at the end of pregnancy? Is there anything that I can address now?

 

And really, it is okay to evaluate your provider as you move through and make sure that you are on the same page.

 

Meagan: Yeah, for sure. I love that. I love that question. Write that down, listeners. Write that down.

 

Okay, so one of the questions is, of the VBACs that you have seen, what are some of the things that have stood out to you about TOLAC and about people who go for a VBAC? Is there anything good and bad that you’re like, “Okay, this is something that stood out to me in a positive way or this is something that I never knew about and then I saw this and now I’m watching for this for the future births”?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I talk about this thing with my members all of the time. The thing that I have found to be most important when we’re thinking about the mode of birth is to understand that the most important thing is that regardless if you end up with a repeat C-section or you end up with a successful vaginal birth after a C-section, what we want is somebody who had as empowering of an experience as possible. Hopefully, it was also a beautiful, empowering experience.

 

You can have a beautiful birth experience by having a C-section and have it with a vaginal birth. What I have my members do is have them come up with their birth values. We usually stick to three or five. What are your birth values? And understand the why behind it. “I want a vaginal birth because—” what’s my why? And underneath that, there’s oftentimes some really good stuff, and if you can bring that to the surface, those values. “I want to feel present in my birth. I want to feel that I have autonomy over my body.”

 

It's different for everybody, but these values come up and what’s important is that we talk about how you can honor those values and those deep desires regardless of the mode of birth so that if we set up, “I want a vaginal birth and that is the success for me and if I don’t get that, I have failed. The birth has failed” if you can fail at giving birth. What we want to do is to work towards a vaginal birth while also acknowledging that at the core, even if the vaginal birth doesn’t happen, we want these values to be honored.

 

Let’s talk through how we can honor these values in a C-section. What can we do to prepare you for a C-section that is beautiful and I will tell you, some of the births that really stick out in my mind from experiences I’ve had with patients were the most beautiful belly births. I mean, really beautiful experiences and experiences that still bring tears to my eyes. I think a lot of times we act like the only time birth can be beautiful is if it’s vaginal.

 

Meagan: Is if it’s vaginal, yeah. It’s not true.

 

Dr. Sterling: It’s not true. Oh my gosh. The births actually that I think about the most in terms of a beautiful birth experience was a belly birth. That was me as a provider. That’s not me as my personal birth experiences but they can be really, really beautiful birth experiences.

 

Meagan: Yeah, with my second it was undesired. I didn’t want a second Cesarean, but it was a beautiful experience and I will cherish it forever. It helped me grow and it helped me heal from my first one too.

 

Okay, I love that. The next question is about induction and VBAC. At what weeks would you suggest induction for VBAC in general and I know further down in the questions there is when would you suggest induction for VBAC with gestational diabetes? Maybe they’re the same. Maybe they differ, but yeah. That’s one of the questions. Induction and VBAC are also controversial depending on the provider.

 

Dr. Sterling: So the issue with induction with VBAC is that two things are true. This is the part that really trips people up. We have some data that an induction at 39-40 weeks with a VBAC may increase your chances of a vaginal delivery. We also have data that people who go into labor on their own have a higher chance of having a VBAC with a trial of labor so both things are true.

 

If we had a crystal ball and knew that you were going into labor on your due date with a VBAC, we would not induce you before that because that would be best for you to go into labor on your own. However, if we had a crystal ball and we knew that you were not going to go into labor and you would need to be induced at 41 weeks and 5 days, we would have wished that we had induced you at 39 weeks.

 

There is no right answer here. I’m a huge believer in membrane sweeps for people who really want a vaginal birth. Ideally, around 39 weeks, I’ve had many membrane sweeps myself. They are not necessarily the most pleasant experience.

 

Meagan: And sometimes they work and sometimes they don’t.

 

Dr. Sterling: Sometimes they don’t. So membrane sweeps reduce the chance that you will need a formal induction of labor. They are kind of considered a method of induction so we usually don’t do them too early. They reduce the chance that you will need a formal induction of labor. On average, they are going to shorten your pregnancy by about four days. They don’t always work to put you into labor, but with a VBAC, we also want to think about how much medication we have to give you if we do need to induce you. We would like to reduce the amount of medication we give you so that may help your cervix just be a little bit more ripe, ready, and primed for labor.

 

We don’t have data to support this so that’s why I’m saying this. It may be helpful to reduce the amount of Pitocin we need to use for your induction. That’s why I’m a big proponent of membrane sweeps in the right patient and with informed consent. That is very, very critical because unfortunately, that does not always happen and that’s absolutely not acceptable for someone to undergo a membrane sweep without informed consent.

 

Meagan: Right, going over anything. Yeah, I love that. Like you said, it’s so hard because there’s no crystal ball. You have to go through and look at where you’re at and what’s best for you and your situation. Another question about induction is, are there any methods you will or will not use? We do know through the history of Cesarean, there are certain things like Cytotec that we really don’t use but then there are random providers out there who you will hear give Cytotec and things like that.

 

Dr. Sterling: And your other question about gestational diabetes, when you are induced for gestational diabetes depends on how well your glucose is being controlled, if it’s requiring medications, and oftentimes, your provider is going to prioritize the recommendations for your gestational diabetes induction especially if you are on insulin or say your fasting glucose is not where we want it because with some types of gestational diabetes and with certain levels of control, there is that increased risk of stillbirth, that is typically where they will put the priority.

 

So if your glucose is poorly controlled, even if it might be the best thing for your potential VBAC to be induced at 38 weeks, if you have poorly controlled glucose and we are looking at an increased risk of stillbirth because gestational diabetes is mostly a risk when the glucose isn’t well-controlled, then your provider is going to say, “Yeah. It might not be the best thing for a VBAC situation,” but for the health of the pregnancy, this is going to be our recommendation.

 

I just wanted to answer the gestational diabetes question.

 

Meagan: Yes, so let’s go back into induction methods and what you’ve seen. We talked a little bit about membrane sweeping and I am going to quickly run. My daughter is sick and screaming for me so keep talking. I’m going to block my screen out for a second and I’ll be right back, but if you want to talk about induction methods. And maybe too, what you’ve seen work better and maybe also where the cervix is or not. Does that make sense? If you’re not dilated at all, how can you induce and all of those things?

 

Dr. Sterling: There is a bit of a question mark when it comes to induction with a trial of labor after a C-section. There are medications that most OBGYNS are not going to use. Cytotec is one of those medications that when we are inducing labor at term, we don’t like to use because there is some data that it has a higher risk of uterine rupture which is when the scar of the uterus breaks open.

 

We really, really want to do everything we can to avoid that. That’s the complication that we are most concerned about with  

We really, really want to do everything we can to avoid that. That’s the complication that we are most concerned about with a TOLAC. Some providers won’t do any kind of medication for an induction. They’ll only do mechanical, so membrane sweeping, the Foley balloon or a Cook balloon. They’ll do ruptured membranes, but once it comes to any medication, that will be a hard stop for them.

 

The reason why some providers don’t use Pitocin is that we don’t have enough data to say that this level of Pitocin is a-okay but once you get to this level, that’s where we see the increased risk. We know that using Pitocin can increase the risk of rupture, but we don’t know where the line is. So some providers are like, “Okay. In that setting with that doubt, I’m just going to say no to Pitocin altogether,” whereas other providers will say, “You know what? We will use a lower dose protocol for our people who are undergoing a trial of labor and inform the that we are going to use Pitocin.”

 

It does slightly increase the risk of rupture, but it’s not unreasonable to use Pitocin. It isn’t, but the person has to be informed that this may increase the risk of rupture. We’re going to use a lower-risk protocol to try to mitigate that risk, but we don’t actually have the data to say, “This amount is okay. This amount isn’t okay.” And so this is where it comes to how different providers land when there’s nuance and when there’s gray. Some providers are going land in the, “No. I don’t want to do anything that could increase your risk of rupture,” and other providers are saying, “Hey, if you’re aware of this risk and you’re okay with it, I’m okay doing Pitocin.”

 

It just depends.

 

Meagan: Yeah. I know it’s such a hard one because there are different providers. With my second, I was begging for Pitocin. First of all, who begs for Pitocin? Not normal, not a lot of people, but I was begging for it. He was like, “No, no, no, no,” but then I was a doula and I started working and I was like, “Wait. There are all of these providers doing Pitocin, but then there are also providers that won’t.” It’s like you said, “Okay, I’ll a Foley or a Cook, or I’ll break your water. And sometimes I’ll use Pitocin if we have an IUPC and we can monitor the strength.” So it’s just so hard. Again, it’s one of those questions where there are two answers.

 

Dr. Sterling: That’s the thing is that there are some things in medicine and some things in obstetrics where you will get clear answers. That’s always really comforting as a patient to be like, “Oh. Everybody agrees on this. Okay. I feel comfortable.” But then when you get to the situations where there is a gray zone and there is nuance and you see some providers doing something this way. Where I trained, they gave Pitocin for vaginal births. That was my standard practice. I left residency and I joined a practice and they were like, “No. We as a group do not do Pitocin for TOLAC.” And so it was like, “Oh, okay. This is different.”

 

Patients would ask me what my perspective is and I’m like, “My perspective is that I’m used to doing this and I think that it can be done safely, but I’m part of a practice where that is a no-go.”

 

Meagan: That is restricted.

 

Dr. Sterling: We’re restricted. So you know, one physician could feel a certain way about what they do but then be in a setting where this is not how it’s done.

 

Meagan: And that’s hard too because a lot of time, they would be viewed as unsupportive, but it’s actually not that they're unsupportive but that they're restricted. From a patient’s point of view, we have to remember that sometimes it’s not that the provider doesn’t want to, it’s that they can’t within the practice that they’re in. And again, that’s where it’s like, “Okay, well maybe that practice isn’t the right practice for you.”

 

Dr. Sterling: Exactly. Even if you were with me and you loved me, you’re like, “I love Dr. Sterling. We get along so well,” but her practice and some physicians are their own bosses. A lot of physicians are employed and they are dealing with an employed physician that has a group that says, “We don’t do this and you are an employee and not an owner of the practice.” Then you’re like, “I love her, but she can’t offer me Pitocin so I may have to go with someone else, and maybe I don’t have the rapport that I had.” So it’s unfortunately with physicians, oftentimes you’re compromising on something. The question is what do I need? What are my non-negotiables within the practice?

 

Stay firm on those. Your non-negotiables are your non-negotiables. Be clear. Some people may say, “You know what? I don’t like that they don’t offer Pitocin but the rapport is more important to me.” Other people may say, “You know what? I need to go somewhere that’s willing to induce me if that’s what I need with Pitocin.”

 

Meagan: Yeah, with my third, I really wanted a VBAC again and I had a super supportive provider. He was top-notch supportive and known in Utah as one of the most supportive providers, but in the end and at the end of things, I was just feeling like I shouldn’t be there. Everyone was like, “Why? You have the most supportive provider,” and I’m like, “Because I know that he’s going to be restricted. I don’t want to have that restriction although there are other providers who just don’t have restrictions but not as many,” so I changed. I had a VBAC after two Cesareans and it was beautiful and amazing. Maybe I would have with that provider but I don’t know knowing my birth story. I think he would have been cut off. He wouldn’t have wanted to but he would have been cut off.

 

Okay, so one of the questions was is a C-section always safer than a vacuum or a forceps delivery? So if you’re coming to the point where you’re pushing and you’re about to get this VBAC and you’re so close, but you might need an extra little bit of assistance, do you feel like a Cesarean is quote-on-quote “safer” or a better route than those other assisted delivery methods? Again, everybody has a different perspective and their history of using these things might come into play. But just share some of your thoughts.

 

Dr: Sterling: You can’t make a blanket statement that a Cesarean is always safer than a vacuum delivery or a vacuum is always better than a Cesarean. It really is each individual situation. What I can tell you is that if the vacuum is successful, if the forceps are successful and you have a vaginal birth and baby is okay and you’re okay, then yeah. That was a better decision than going for a C-section in the second stage of labor. C-sections in the second stage of labor are not risk-free. As we know, there are a lot of risks to that too.

 

The thing that becomes the more unsafe situation is when you have a failed vacuum or a failed forceps and then you go to a C-section.

 

Meagan: That’s what I was going to ask.

 

Dr. Sterling: That situation, we want to avoid because that’s the highest risk situation. Failed vacuum, failed forceps, then go to a C-section. If we knew that was going to happen, it would have been way better to go straight to a C-section than to attempt a vacuum. So I think that what I would want if I was in that situation, I was going through a trial of labor and my provider offered me a forceps or a vacuum. I would want to know their confidence level with that.

 

 I would not want to be the one pushing, “Can we try a vacuum? Can we try a forceps?” I would want the other person on the end of the table saying, “I think we’ve got this. I think if I just put a vacuum on real quick, we’re going to pop that baby out and we’re going to be good. We’re going to have a baby.” I want that level of confidence. I want somebody who’s like, “Let’s do this. I have no problem. I think we’ve got it.”

 

I do not want somebody who’s like, “Mmm, we could.”

 

Meagan: We could, we could.

 

Dr. Sterling: If it was me at the other end of the table, somebody saying, “We could,” is like are you feeling good about this?

 

Meagan: Are you confident?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, when you’re about to do a vacuum, I’ve never done forceps. On the West coast, very few people do forceps. On the East coast, a lot more people are still doing forceps. West coast, we have them on labor and delivery, but not something that we did. It was some reasons for that and some of it is medically legal, just the lawsuits from forceps, departments are like, “We don’t do forceps anymore. We’re not doing that.”

 

There are patients where I’ve been like, “Let’s do a vacuum. I think with a few pulls, this baby’s going to come out,” and then there are vacuums where it’s like, “Listen, I could do this. There’s a shot,” but I didn’t feel really good about it and in that setting, I was always super honest with patients that if they were highly, highly motivated for that vaginal birth, they might be willing to take that risk of, “I’m thinking there’s a 50/50 shot here,” but me personally, I would want a provider to feel really good that it’s going to work.

 

Meagan: It’s going to be [inaudible]. Yeah. That makes sense.

 

Another question, we’re just drilling out the questions here. This person had felt during her VBAC, and she did have a VBAC, but she felt burning sensations around her previous incision. She wants to know what that could have been. Could it have been scar tissue? Could it have just been that baby was passing through and stretching out that weakened uterine spot? I will admit, I had that a couple of times with my VBAC where it felt like a muscle being strained.

 

Dr. Sterling: That’s how my first labor felt was burning—

 

Meagan: In your abdominal cavity.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yep and I’ve had other patients where that’s how they described contractions was this burning, stretching pain. My thought is that I can’t answer that question specifically, but that could have nothing to do with the fact that you had a scar in you because that was my first labor experience. It felt like that, but then with my other labor experiences, the contraction pain felt different.

 

People experience contraction pain differently and depending on the baby. My contractions when I had a baby who was sunny-side up when he was occiput posterior, they felt different than the contractions that I had with my other kids. It could have something to do with the scar, but also, it could just have been how your contractions felt.

 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. Mine seemed like it was a variant. Right before I started pushing. Maybe baby was just descending and the wider part was stretching. I don’t even know. I don’t know the details as far as her labor. She just said that she had it. Could it have been scar tissue or what could it have been?

 

Dr. Sterling: It’s always so difficult to point out what the cause is of a bodily sensation, but I think that there are a lot of different possibilities of what it could be. Some of them are related to a scar and some of them have nothing to do with a scar.

 

Meagan: Yeah. There was another one in regard to talking uterine scar and VBAC. She said that after her first C-section, she was told that the lower uterine segment was thinner, so she was saying, “Could I still VBAC? Is this a total hard no, I absolutely shouldn’t VBAC?” What are your thoughts on that?

 

Dr. Sterling: It’s an area of active research. It’s an area of active research looking at, can we on ultrasound or even MRI measure the lower uterine segment and thus determine the risk of rupture and successful VBAC? It’s still a question mark here, but if you do have an extremely thin lower uterine segment, sometimes we open people up after they’ve had a C-section and there’s a window, right?

 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s another one of the questions. They said they had a window. I’ve actually had a window as well.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah. So the window depends. Some of the research didn’t really define what is a uterine rupture. Is a uterine rupture only when you get in and you open up the belly and the tissue is bleeding and it’s clear that it’s just ruptured and this was previously tissue that was together? Or what if you open up the abdomen and you look and there’s this separation but it looks like it had been there for a while? Is that a uterine rupture or a uterine window?

 

Not all of the research and the data have clearly said, “This is what we consider a uterine rupture. This is what we consider a uterine window.”

 

Meagan: Or dehiscence.

 

Dr. Sterling: Or a dehiscence, exactly. There are all of these different terms. There’s a window, dehiscence, and rupture.

 

Meagan: But sometimes it goes to rupture.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, so I think that personally in this gray zone of where the cut-off is for how many millimeters we want to see the lower uterine segment, it’s hard for me to separate that from my own personal experiences having patients have uterine ruptures and have them go through these long labors and then open them up and they’ve got a window. I think that I would lean more towards if my physician was telling me, “Hey, you have a really thin lower uterine segment,” I personally would probably lean more towards a repeat C-section in that setting because to me, if I’m thinking about being in labor and also having the weight of, “What if my uterus ruptures?” If that weight is too heavy, I feel like that’s not what I want to feel and that fear.

 

Meagan: That constant questioning.

 

Dr. Sterling: That constant questioning, and “Oh, they said it was thin. Am I making the wrong choice?” That to me would be very heavy. That isn’t necessarily how another person would feel. What I think is important to think through for you as an individual is, “Is that fact that you have been told that you have this thin lower uterine segment? Is that going to be really prominent and heavy for you when you are in labor or do you still feel light? Does your body still feel light and you still feel like that’s the right choice moving forward, that’s the right path?”

 

With my members, when I take them through—we have our confidence in VBAC path—when I take them through that, I have them ask their body. Ask your body, “Is this a yes and a no?” You have to figure out, “What does a yes feel like in your body? What does a no feel like in your body?” Ask your body, “Does this feel good or does this not feel good?” And then that’s part of making a confident decision about whether you go forward with a repeat C-section or a trial of labor. That doesn’t make the decision for you because you still get to ask your mind and you still get to ask your emotions and you still get to have a collaborative relationship with your provider, but you need to know how your body feels about the decision.

 

Meagan: Yeah, we talk about intuition all of the time and digging deep into what is that saying. What is that intuition saying? A lot of times, that’s the first thing where it’s like, “I shouldn’t have a C-section,” or “I want a C-section”, but then it’s like, “Oh, there’s this VBAC thing. Maybe.” But our initial gut was saying, “I think I should have a C-section,” or vice versa, “I want a VBAC.”

 

Dr. Sterling: 100%.

 

Meagan: I think that’s such a good thing, talking to your body, asking your body. I love that.

 

Okay. I know we don’t have a ton of time left over, but a few more questions we have. Would you suggest an ECV for frank breech wanting to VBAC or would you just say C-section or would you say maybe find a provider if there is one in your area that could support that?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, okay.

 

Meagan: Breech is a whole other podcast.

 

Dr. Sterling: Breech is a whole other thing and it’s so funny. For me, when people talk about breech vaginal delivery, all OBGYNs have birth trauma themselves. It’s called the second victim. We all carry. I don’t know a single OBGYN out in the world who doesn’t have their own trauma from birth. One of my traumas is breech. Of course, this is an unplanned breech so it’s different. I have to always calm myself when breech vaginal birth is brought up because I want to talk about it in an impartial way.

 

An ECV, an external cephalic version, when we do a procedure to turn baby from a non-cephalic, non-head presenting position down into the head presenting position is going to increase your chances of having a vaginal birth. We know that. It also has some risks to it. Some of the risk is that your water breaks. We cause a placental abruption. We cause the placenta to separate. We injure the fetus. That would be super rare, but it’s always something that we educate people about. I’ve never seen it but it could certainly happen. One of the things is that we typically do an external cephalic version before 39 weeks because we know it’s more successful. We typically do them around 37 weeks.

 

If your water does break at 37 weeks because you had an ECV, then we’ve got to do a C-section at 37 weeks and that’s a higher-risk situation for your baby. We want babies to get to 39 weeks if we can. There is that risk of an earlier delivery or an emergency C-section because something happened, but it does increase your chances of vaginal birth. To me, it’s how confident is your provider that they can turn the baby? It depends.

 

There are different characteristics of a person and of how good of a candidate they are for ECV. If you have a provider who’s like, “I’m super confident.” Sometimes I’d be ultrasounding patients and I’m like, “I feel like I could in the office, I’m not going to do it, but I feel like I could push this baby down. There’s a lot of laxity to the uterus. Baby seems to be letting me move them.” So sometimes, it’s like this is a very clear yes. Sometimes it’s a very clear no.

 

Meagan: Then there’s all of the gray.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah and then there’s everything in the middle. So what risk do you feel comfortable with? If you want to be able at the end of the day to say, “I did absolutely everything to get that vaginal birth,” then yeah. ECV may be the way to go for you. Most of the time, even if it doesn’t work, everybody’s fine. But there’s that 1% of the time where we’re running back to the OR because baby is having a heart rate deceleration and not recovering. I have certainly been in that situation more than once so it happens. It’s not common, but I don’t classify it as rare.

 

Meagan: But also not that it doesn’t happen. Yeah. It’s just less common.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah. To me, rare things are things that I may never see but if I see them every year I’m doing it, to me, that is not rare.

 

Meagan: Right. Right. Someone asked if you’ve ever seen VBAC after multiple Cesareans. ACOG says VBAC after two Cesareans is reasonable for VBAC, but it really kind of falls of the ledge after that. VBAC after three, four, all of the things and we know they happen. They’re out there, but there is very little research. So someone just said, “What about a VBAC after three C-sections?” What would you say and again, I think it’s important to note that it depends on every certain person that you’re with and it also depends on your whole history and the reasons and all of those things, but anything that you would like to bring to the table for VBAC after 3+ Cesareans?

 

Dr. Sterling: After more than two C-sections, yeah. At the end of the day, you have to consent to a Cesarean. You have to consent to a Cesarean. A Cesarean cannot be performed on you without your consent unless you were unconscious and you were brought into the ER and we needed to perform a Cesarean to save your life or you are not medically capable of making your own medical decisions.

 

Meagan: Usually then, they have someone else too.

 

Dr. Sterling: Sometimes. I trained at the place where we got most of the data on VBAC. I trained at LA County Hospital, USC. That’s where back in the heyday of 1% of the US population was born there. It was such a maternity ward that we got the data on VBAC because we couldn’t get those patients back to the OR. They were giving birth in the halls. So a lot of the VBAC data, the initial VBAC data comes from where I trained. Where I trained, we had a lot of people who would come in and give birth and they were very unfortunate stories and circumstances with drug abuse, homelessness, and mental illness. They would not know how many C-sections they had had. They would be coming in and they would give birth and sometimes after they gave birth, we would dig in through the charts looking for who this person could be and we found out that person had had four Cesareans before.

 

Meagan: Wow.

 

Dr. Sterling: I have been part of that. I have never had a patient who had three C-sections where we did that intentionally. I want to be upfront about that, but I think that it’s all about what had happened. Let’s say your first birth was a C-section for breech and then you go on to have a vaginal birth and then you had another C-section for breech and then you had another vaginal. If you’ve had multiple vaginal births, then you’ve had three C-sections, then I’m like, yeah. You are at increased risk of rupture. You’ve got three scars on your uterus for sure, but that’s a very different situation than somebody who’s had three C-sections in a row for failure to progress and then you’re like, “You haven’t had a vaginal birth. We are just putting you at a lot of risk with very little prospective of it being successful.”

 

I have never been in a situation where somebody has had three C-sections and we’ve made the decision to proceed despite the risk with vaginal birth, but I have been part of deliveries where they had had multiple C-sections and we didn’t know because they were actively giving birth and were not able to communicate how many C-sections they had to us.

 

Meagan: That’s an interesting thing to me in my mind. In so many ways, I wonder. Like you said, you didn’t know. But if you would have known, would care have changed?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, it probably would have. We would have made a different recommendation because--

 

Meagan: Because of what you knew.

 

Dr. Sterling: To us, getting up to a 2% risk of rupture or higher, it’s a difference of perspective on percentages in a risk. As a physician, 2% is a lot of freaking people. That’s 2 out of every 100 and when you’re doing hundreds of deliveries a year, that 2% with a potentially very dire outcome, that 2% weighs much more heavily than somebody who’s like, “Well, 2% is so small.” There’s a whole different weight to that 2%.

 

Meagan: Well, and we talk about that. We talk about how you have to decide what percentage is enough for you. If 2% is fine, then go find that provider that is supportive in that because it might not be like you said, a 2% from your standpoint is a lot but then to someone else, it might not be a lot.

 

Dr. Sterling: Exactly, exactly.

 

Meagan: It’s interesting, yeah. Okay well, that’s good to know. That’s just so interesting. I wouldn’t have even thought of that. You don’t even know the history and you have to go find out who that person is. Wow, I’m sure that was an experience.

 

Dr. Sterling: Unfortunately, I had that experience quite a bit.

 

Meagan: Oh my goodness, yeah. Crazy. Okay well, last question. This one is what can cause a swollen cervix and what would you suggest if anything to help get that unswollen? Is there anything from an OB standpoint that you can do to help the swelling? This is something that a lot of people are like, “Oh, well I went in and I was 8 centimeters dilated and then all of a sudden, I was a 5.” It’s not that you are literally going backward, but swelling can happen based on a lot of things like disruptions of checks and heads and babies’ heads and all of these things, but yeah. Anything you would like to speak to about swollen cervix?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, we don’t necessarily know why sometimes the cervix swells. It’s a really unfortunate situation. What I have seen anecdotally in my experience is oftentimes when a cervix swells and then I have ended up doing a C-section not just for cervical swelling because that’s not an indication for a C-section, but if that person did not progress after that is oftentimes, we have found that baby is not in the optimal position to move down the birth canal.

 

That is something I have experienced personally and it’s very frustrating because when you’re in labor and when you’re giving birth, you feel like it’s all you and your body. We put a lot of pressure on ourselves. I want to remind people that you are only half of the equation at birth and babies can be cooperative and they can be very uncooperative. I have had an uncooperative baby and it was really, really hard.

 

We can try things like Benadryl. We can try. Sometimes, it’s like, if everything is safe, if you’re on Pitocin, maybe we turn it down. We just give it a little break. We can try some Benadryl. We can try some Tylenol. These are things that are aimed at anti-inflammatory.

 

Meagan: Do you take that orally, I assume?

 

Dr. Sterling: You can, or you can give it intravenously if somebody is not tolerating oral. There are some mixed data out there about Tylenol and about Benadryl and their use in labor. But fixing the swelling once it’s occurred doesn’t always happen. Sometimes you can dilate past it. You certainly can dilate past it and I have seen that many times, but I think that the important thing to keep in mind is that it’s not something that you have done wrong.

 

We don’t necessarily know why sometimes that happens. It may be that baby’s just not in the ideal position because really, baby is dilating your cervix. It’s this nice feedback loop whereas baby descends into the birth canal, it sends signals into your brain to release oxytocin. It’s a collaborative process between you and baby. I have had three births and in my first birth, I pushed four contractions and baby was out, phenomenal. Then all of a sudden, my third birth, I was pushing for an hour and nothing. Not a budge. Not a budge. We thought that maybe he was sunny-side up, but we also knew that he was big. He was essentially 11 pounds when he was born, so he was big. I was so down on myself. I was like, “I shouldn’t have pushed the epidural button the last time. Why did I forget how to push?”

 

Meagan: You blamed yourself.

 

Dr. Sterling: Oh my gosh and I know better, but I did. I was blaming myself like, “Why can’t I do this? How did I forget to push?” OB comes in and she’s like, “Yeah, I agree with you. I think he’s OP. I can try a manual rotation.” I looked at her and I was like, “Girl, just do it.”

 

Meagan: That’s another one of the questions by the way.

 

Dr. Sterling: So she goes in and she does. Listen, she was better at manual rotation than I am. I have not had as much success. The fact that this manual rotation worked was a little bit of a surprise to me because in my experience it has always been really hard to do. She went in. She pushed him up. She turned him down and he came out. I didn’t even have to push. The whole time, I’m thinking, “I’m not pushing correctly. How did I forget how to push?” putting all of the pressure on myself. There we go. It wasn’t me. It wasn’t me.

 

Meagan: I love that. That just gave me the chills.

 

Dr. Sterling: I didn’t even have to push. I had to push past my perineum but he came all the way to crowning once he was in the proper position and that was a huge eye-opening moment for me. I instantly felt bad for all of the patients who I had coached and tried to get to push correctly. I was like, “What?”

 

Meagan: Yeah.

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, yeah.

 

Meagan: We really do as a society. We need to stop not just in birth but in all things. Motherhood, so many things like, “I’m a bad mom because I did this” or “Oh, this happened.” We put so much pressure and going right back to the very beginning of this whole conversation is being an advocate saying that we have to advocate for ourselves, it puts all of this extra pressure because not only are we saying that you have to go into labor. You have to dilate. You have to efface. You have to bring your baby down in the right position. Then you have to push the baby out. Then you have to nurse the baby. All of these things, right? So it’s like, why are we adding all of this extra pressure onto ourselves where you were doing all of the right things? You were doing everything but it was just this little factor that you needed to change and it was out of your control. You were trying to do everything you possibly could.

 

Dr. Sterling: Exactly.

 

Meagan: I love it. And going back, I said the last question but that was one of the questions. Can you as an OB help if I have a posterior baby? I’ve seen it as a doula. I’ve seen the same thing. This provider who I think is amazing goes in. He did the same thing. Goes up and I could just see him. He closes his eyes and he does this whole thing with the head and he’s like, “Okay, we’re good.” It’s like okay! That is a thing. The very, very last question is how as a patient if you’re like, “I think my baby is OP” or your doula, or your nurse, or your doctor is saying, “I think this baby is OP,” how can you as a patient ask? If we say, “Can you help me rotate this baby? I’m having a hard time doing it with pushing.”

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah. You do have to be completely dilated. You have to be completely dilated and I find that it can be really difficult to perform, but in the right patient, it is a wonderful tool to have in your toolkit. But there are some providers who are so good at it and there are some providers who haven’t done it as much. I was really impressed by this OB. She was a newer graduate. She had just graduated that year from residency and I actually have some friends in common. She had trained where I had friends do their fellowship, so I texted them after and I was like, “She was so good at that manual rotation.” They were like, “Yeah. That program really pushed manual rotation. They do a ton of it so they come out really well trained in that.”

 

I was like, “That’s so awesome,” because I feel like in our training, that wasn’t something that we did a ton of but I always was like, “Yeah, I can do it” and I would try and once in a while, I would have succeeded but I didn’t feel super confident in that skill. That’s the thing. Where you train really depends on the skills that you pick up. But anyway, so yeah. I think that if you think that your baby is OP and your provider really does have to feel like they’re OP because they don’t want to turn a baby that is OA. You don’t want to turn it the opposite way.

 

But you can say, “Hey, if we think this baby is OP, can we do a manual rotation and try to get him head down?” I think it’s important to ask what the risks are and communicate to your provider if that is something you want. You have to say, “Yeah, I’m okay with those risks,” and then you put your provider in a place of comfort. We get uncomfortable when patients, for me, when a patient is signaling to me that they don’t understand the risk or they don’t believe the risk is possible, that’s when you put your provider into a nervous situation.

 

Meagan: Right, yes. I love that when your patient is confident, it helps you. Yeah. That makes so much sense.

 

Dr. Sterling: If they’re like, “Well, I don’t think that would happen,” then you’re like, “I need you to understand that this very much could happen.”

 

Meagan: Yes, it could happen. This one provider that I was talking to about how there was one time where he was going the way that you would normally go and he was like, “Nope. This baby has to go the other way.” I was like, “What?” And seriously, just rotated it and was like, “All right, now it’s good.” Sometimes too, talk to your provider and say, “Can we try one more time?” or “I understand that it’s not working. Can we take a little break and try again?” Or whatever, assessing.

 

Dr. Sterling: And asking questions. I think it’s really good to just ask questions. If somebody is saying no, it’s okay to say, “Can you walk me through your reasoning?”

 

Meagan: Yeah, I love that. Can you tell me why?

 

Dr. Sterling: It’s totally okay. It’s totally okay to ask that and sometimes when they walk you through your reasoning, you may say, “You know what? I’m actually okay with that risk” or when they walk you through your reasoning, you might be like, “Yeah. I feel you there. I feel much more confident about this decision. It’s not the outcome that I wanted, but I am resonating with your thought process and thus I feel more comfortable with this decision,” so that a month later after this birth, I’m not thinking back on that situation and wondering, “Should I have pushed just a little bit harder?”

 

Even if you’re not getting the birth outcome that you had envisioned, it’s important for you to understand the why-- for many people, I should say, it’s important to understand the why so that your birth story becomes part of your story. I don’t want people to always be questioning, “Should I have done this? Should I have done that?” I think a lot of the time because we feel uncomfortable asking for more explanation and we’re not necessarily always given the explanation then we have all of these questions that we carry with us for literally years.

 

Women who gave birth 20 years ago will comment in my DM’s and be asking questions about that and it breaks my heart that they’ve been carrying that weight for so many years.

 

Meagan: Yeah. I think that is such a great spot to end on is ask questions. It’s okay. It’s okay to ask those questions. It’s okay to have that doubt too. It’s okay to have that doubt and have that question because sometimes it’s like, “Oh, well it’s a stupid question,” but it’s not a stupid question because it’s a question that you want to know.

 

Dr. Sterling: It’s a question you have and there really is no such thing as stupid questions. There really is no such thing.

 

Meagan: Well, thank you so much for taking the time. I know that so many people are going to be just waiting so patiently for this episode to air because we had so many questions we didn’t even get to. Again, thank you so much.

 

Dr. Sterling: Oh, you’re welcome. It was an honor.

 

Meagan: Can you tell everyone where to find you on social media and maybe talk a little bit more about your program?

 

Dr. Sterling: Yeah, yes. I’m @drsterlingobgyn on TikTok and on Instagram and then I have a membership where I support people through trying to conceive, pregnancy, postpartum, and the whole journey and that’s sterlingparents.com. We have a beautiful curriculum that we put people through to help support them through the physical and emotional challenges of the whole journey. We have a really lovely database that I’m really proud of that really can replace all of the internet searches and Google. That database all has three E verifications so all of our information is evidence-based, expert-based, and experience-based so we like to talk about things and with people who have had that experience themselves.

 

Meagan: Yeah, I love it. Awesome. We’ll make sure to drop all of those links in the show notes, so listeners, check out the show notes. We’ll also have you on our social media today and we’ll have everything tagged as well. If you’re not knowing how to do it in the show notes, go to our Instagram.

 

Thank you again, so much.

 

Dr. Sterling: Oh you’re so welcome. Thanks for having me.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

For our final holiday special podcast episode, we want to help you feel as physically prepared as possible when going for your VBAC!

Stephanie of My Essential Birth joins Meagan to share her wisdom from her own two VBAC births as well as what she has helped women learn through her many years as a birth worker. 

You will hear tips on how to choose and vet providers, three free exercises that might just make all the difference during your labor, and the secret lesson Stephanie has learned that she wants all of our listeners to know. 

Additional Links

Stephanie's Website and Course

Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy Podcast

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Meagan: Hello, hello you guys. It is the end of the year. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and I have another holiday edition for you. Today is one that I am so excited about because this is someone that I know personally. She’s a dear friend of mine and we have taken similar journeys through our doula careers, so it’s really fun to be with someone that I already know and that we have the same mindset and goals for all of you out there. 

This is Stephanie and she is amazing. So amazing. She is a mom and a doula. She’s had a VBAC and she actually has an amazing course through My Essential Birth. That’s correct, right? My Essential Birth? 

Stephanie: Yep. 

Meagan: It’s a course on how to prepare and get ready for birth. She has the same drive, I feel like, and passion as I do to get the information out to all of you and to help you know what is best for you whether it be, again, scheduling a repeat Cesarean or having a VBAC or maybe you’re a first-time mom and you just want to know how to go along the way, seriously, Stephanie is going to be that person for you. So I’m so excited today to have her on. Welcome, Steph. 

Stephanie: Thank you. That’s quite an introduction. I love it. Come to my podcast. Do the same thing. 

Meagan: No, no seriously. I was going to say, she has a full-on introduction here too. But you are amazing. You are so amazing and I love what you have done with My Essential Birth. You’re busy. You’ve got three kids. You’ve got three kids and something too that is really fun is every single birth has been so different which I think just broadens your knowledge and passion, even more, to do what you do because for me, my births were all so different and I don’t know, I really don’t know if I would be here today if I didn’t have all of those births. 

Stephanie: Yeah, 100%. Yes. 

Meagan: Don’t you feel like these experiences in our lives have brought us here today and have brought passion to our hearts? But yeah. On top of that, you homeschool. You do so many things. You wear so many hats, so I’m so grateful for you taking the time today to talk to us about all of the amazing things that you do. 

But I think one of the really cool things right off the bat is, let’s talk about your VBACs and how you really got started in all of this. 

Stephanie: Yeah, I think you really hit the nail on the head because 100%, if I hadn’t had the experiences with the births that I have had, I wouldn’t have not only the passion but the knowledge from seeing things go wrong. It makes me think of when I was 16 and I got my first car and it was a piece of crap and everything broke down on it so I had to learn about things [inaudible]. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Stephanie: No, I’m not comparing my body to a car, but I will say that those experiences totally shaped the way that I do what I do today and the passion behind it. My first baby– now, mind you, in my head, this was my goal. I wanted to go unmedicated. It was what I wanted to do. I just wanted to have that experience for myself for no particular reason. That’s just what I wanted to do. 

We got around 34-35 weeks and I was reading a birth story online. Mind you, this was 13, 14 years ago, so it was a little bit ago not like what we see today with birth stories and stuff, but I’m at work and bawling because I’m super pregnant. 

I’m like, “That’s what I want my birth to be like,” so I researched the classes that kind of went along with this book and I reached out to some local birth educators. It was this 12-week series and I had four or five weeks left to go. There was this one lady that was like, “Okay, I’ll do these intensive courses on the weekend if you could make it.” I’m over like, “My husband works every weekend. We’re super broke.” She was going to do it for this bigger prize. I’m like, “It’s fine. I’ll wing it. It’s going to be fine.”

Fast forward to that birth and missing some red flags, things like my provider telling me when first of all, he didn’t want to have the conversation until 36 weeks about what the birth was going to be like, so I told him early on, “I don’t want to have an epidural. I want to go unmedicated.” He was like, “We don’t talk about that until 36 weeks.” That was a red flag, but I didn’t know any better. 

Meagan: Interesting, yeah. Because that’s what they do. 

Stephanie: Uh-huh and I was like, “Okay. Sure.” Totally. He was super old school. There were a couple of things and just the way that he talked to me that I should have caught on, but when 36 weeks came and I said, “I really want to go unmedicated,” and whatever and he was talking about, “Well, I actually let my patients get their epidurals much earlier than others. Why be in pain?” And I’m like, “No, it’s really important to me.” And then he continued with, “Well, women with size 5.5 shoes and smaller tend to have Cesarean births.” 

Now, mind you, I’m a small person. I’m 5’0”. My shoe size is 5.5 and I’m sitting there just, “You’ve got to be freaking kidding me,” because my grandmother who was 4’10”, and her grandmother. I’m just going down the line like, “Nobody would be here. What are we talking about?” But at the same time, I’m a new mom. It’s my first birth. I’m scared, so I stayed with him, and anyways, the cascade of intervention that happened was my water broke with just a trickle. I didn’t have contractions. The provider ended up telling me once I was at the hospital that I needed to have Pitocin and I say that because I remember asking the nurse, “Did he say that word need?”

She was like, “I’ll come back.” But she was like, “He said need.” So I said, “Okay, well then I must need Pitocin.” So we took Pitocin. That baby did not do well with it. He couldn’t crank up the Pitocin enough to make the contraction strong enough to actually make labor progress because my baby’s heart rate would drop. That was, in my opinion, a medically-caused Cesarean because yes, when I have a baby in distress, then there we are. 

So that was my first experience with birth. I didn’t connect with my baby right away. On top of being a new mom and figuring out life, I had just had abdominal surgery. I was a mess of emotions and then the next two births are where I found some redemption and healing and passion and power for women’s bodies and what we can do. 

During my second birth, we had moved overseas to Germany and I was meeting with a doctor. I’d met with an OB but it was actually midwives who you give birth with. I had taken a really good birth course and I had been practicing a lot of stuff. I did not understand a ton about positioning though for my baby and so I had two days of prodromal labor which is not that big of a deal. 

Two days of prodromal labor, then finally things kicked in and I was in full active labor, but then I had pushing contractions at 4 centimeters, so now, my doula brain goes, “Oh, it’s a positional thing. I have all of these ideas,” but then, I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m not going to make it.” And then too, the wonderful German nurse there– there was a little bit of a language barrier for sure, but I was like, “I really want to get into the water.” She was like, “Oh, later. And also, I have something, honey, that will take all of that away. You just let me know if you want a little bit. We’ll just stick it in the bum. A little bit of pain meds.” At the time, I was like, “Yeah, that’s a good idea. Let’s try that.” 

But I had the pain meds. That ended up being like, I was comfortable before two contractions before my water broke. It took the edge off enough that my body was like, “Let’s get things started,” but then the contractions were right back on. I did end up with an epidural for that birth. My baby did fine with the Pitocin. I pushed that baby out vaginally. I wasn’t forced into another Cesarean or anything and that birth was amazing. I was very, very pleased with the way that that birth went. 

And then we were moving from Germany back to the United States, particularly to North Dakota. If you know anything about North Dakota, they don’t even have– my midwife was not a licensed midwife on purpose. You cannot be a licensed midwife and deliver babies outside of a hospital setting. They can get arrested. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s illegal. 

Stephanie: It’s not the black market, but she’s not licensed. She was a direct-entry midwife. So we were moving back from overseas to North Dakota and I called the hospital first before I met with a home birth midwife. They told me, “Well, we don’t really care that you’ve had a vaginal birth after Cesarean. You had a Cesarean before, so you need to plan for another scheduled Cesarean birth,” so talk about my red flags now. 

Meagan: You’re like, “Nope. Nope.” 

Stephanie: No way. I’m going to do whatever I have to do. So I did. I reached out to a home birth midwife. I found a doula and all of those things that I probably should have done with baby #1. We planned for me to have an unmedicated experience at home. I was really excited about that up until 35, 36 weeks. I had a breech baby for one and that breech baby, we were able to get him turned, so that part went away, but then it was the mental game of, “Can I actually do this? You’ve never not had an epidural.” All of that self-talk starts happening and it’s not good. My doula was like, “Here’s a list of affirmations. Take what you like. Leave the rest and start saying them out loud several times a day every day.” 

And so I did that and within a week or so, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” I went from being scared and nervous to confident and excited. I was like, “I can do this.” So that baby had a week of prodromal labor. It was about 5 or 6 days of prodromal labor and then things get moving and I have some active labor that hit, but my contractions never really got closer than about 6 minutes apart. 

They would last a minute to two minutes long, but they were never those super crazy close, consistent. Things kept going off in my head like, “If I was in the hospital, I definitely would have been offered a Cesarean birth.” It wouldn’t have been a question, especially in that hospital. These contractions were coming. My midwife, we finally call her and I’m like, “Look. I’ve been in prodromal labor and now it’s active labor, but they’re not closer than 6 minutes.” She checks me and I’m 6 centimeters. I was like, “My labor is progressing on my own.” It was so cool. 

And then it was another 12 hours from that point and I had my baby. But it was incredible. Those contractions and just knowing that my body was doing what it was meant to do. There was a point where I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m so tired. I need to sleep.” For sure, we went upstairs. I slept for 45 minutes. I had two contractions. It was another moment where I was like, “Yeah.” If I was at the hospital, somebody would say, “Oh, she’s stalling. We’ve got to do something.” Whatever. 

But those two contractions and the second one, I woke up and I was like, “Oh my gosh, what is happening? I can’t do this anymore.” Sure enough, I’m thinking, this better be transition. My midwife comes in. She had heard me. She was sleeping downstairs. She comes to the door. She’s like, “Do you want me to check you?” I’m like, “Yes, please. Let’s see where I’m at.” She’s like, “You’re 9.5 with a bouncy lip of cervix. You’re good to go. Let’s get you to go to the bathroom. You can get in the birth tub now.” So we did that and i can laugh about it now, but I went downstairs. I went to the bathroom and after I was done peeing, I had my first pushing contraction. 

I remember telling my husband, “I don’t want to give birth on the toilet. I have to get out of here.” 4.5 hours later because of the mental blocks that I had– we can laugh about that now, but at the time, it was very serious. Like, “I’d better get to the birth tub.” 

Meagan: Yeah. I’d better get out of here. 

Stephanie: Yeah, but it was wonderful. I will tell you the differences. The major differences for me in the spaces that I was in for being able to give birth unmedicated and as a VBAC, my birth team made the biggest difference. When I was at home and feeling like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t do this anymore. Oh my goodness. I’ve been pushing so long. I’m so tired,” everyone was like, “But you are doing it. You’re doing great. Keep it up.” I’m like, “Oh. I can take that in and chill and feel supported.” 

So I did. We kind of joke about, first of all, I was making noises that my husband the next day told me, “You sound like the screaming goats.” I was like, “Oh my gosh. I do.”

Meagan: I was called a cow. My husband was like, “You’re a mooing cow in there.” I’m like, “Thank you so much.”

Stephanie: Well, the best part of this story, I actually love this story, the next day, my husband is sitting at the table and showing our little boys the screaming goat video. His mom’s walking down the stairs and goes, “You recorded her?!” 

Meagan: Uh-uh!

Stephanie: So I’m like, “Okay, yeah. I get it. I get it. I really did sound like that.” 

Meagan: You really did sound like that. That is so funny. 

Stephanie: But anyways, I’m pushing all this time and I do remember hitting a point even during pushing, I’m like, “Oh my gosh. I can’t do this.” I was scared. I had never pushed a baby out before. Instead of holding my breath and bearing down, I was purposely breathing through my nose and not leaning into that pushing. My husband was finally like or I told him, “You need to make the bed. I need to get out of the tub,” because in my head, all I’m thinking about was, “If I can’t do this, then I’m going to have to go to the hospital. We’re going to have to call an ambulance. The lights are going to be on. There’s going to be people I don’t know.” I had to walk myself through all of those things. 

Meagan: You were really deep in that space. Yeah. 

Stephanie: Yeah. I was like, “No. This has to happen here because I can’t deal with all of that.” So I told my husband, “Go upstairs. Make the bed.” I was like, “Make sure you get the lining down so we don’t mess up the mattress and all of that.” When he went upstairs, it was the first time that I paused and tuned into myself. I just said a quick prayer and for me, I call God Heavenly Father. “Heavenly Father, please. I can’t do this alone. I’m scared.” 

My husband comes down the stairs. I’m just finishing that prayer. He’s ready to lift me out of the water. He was like, “Come on. Let’s go. Let’s go now.” He went to lift me and I’m like, “No. It’s happening.” Two pushes later, that baby was out. 

Meagan: Oh, that just gave me major chills. 

Stephanie: It was the most spiritual experience of my life. I love everything about it. Yes, it was probably one of the hardest things I’ve ever done physically. Mentally, how it pushes you to your limits, and then you feel like you are the strongest woman alive. You can do anything. You’re a good mother. You’re all of the things. It was that feeling and looking at what I had done through having good support that I was like, “No. We’re lying to women. You know what? If I could do this, anyone can. So now I’m going to become a birth educator and now I”m going to work with women one-on-one. I know that you can do this.” 

So that’s where the passion came from. Those were my birth stories. 

Meagan: I love it. I love it. Oh, that just gave me such chills. You know what’s interesting is I don’t think I’ve ever even heard all of your birth stories like that. 

Stephanie: Oh really? 

Meagan: I don’t think I have. We have some similarities. We have some similarities. 

Stephanie: I know. I’ve read through some of yours too. I love it. Yeah. 

Meagan: Even more. I don’t think I realized. Yeah, maybe I have and it was a long time ago and I forgot, but there are a lot of similarities. I love it. You’ve had these VBACs. You found this passion and here you are today. So in past episodes, we’ve talked about mentally preparing and mentally getting into that space. You just did that. You just talked about that which is so important. 

It is so crucial to be in that space because when we’re out here, we can’t dive into birth. I feel like I did the same thing. I wish that it was recorded so I could really show people how big of a tantrum I was throwing, but I was legitimately throwing a tantrum in my driveway pacing back and forth saying, “If my water wouldn’t have just broken, this would be totally different. This is happening all over again.” I was really spiraling and everyone just sat there. My neighbor was seeing me. She was like, “Oh!” I’m like, “I’m in labor.” She stopped and was like, “Is she okay?” Rick was like, “She’s just gonked or something right now.” 

I had her watching me. My mom was watching me. The kids were like, “Mom!” I’m throwing my hands and voicing everything that was in my head out loud getting it out there but I needed to do that. I needed to do that but as soon as I could get that out, I remember the drive. We were getting in the car to go to the birth center and meet my midwife. I had my baby later that night, but it was the morning before I had my baby and he was just like, “So, how did that feel?” I was like, “So good.” I just remember labor coming on so much stronger. You have to get in that head space. 

We know there is the headspace, but what about the physical? I feel like there is so much goodness that you talk about. The physical aspect of preparing for birth and not even just preparing to actually give birth, but preparing and creating that team and creating that environment. 

One of the first things is knowing your stuff. How can our listeners know their stuff? Right now, they are listening to this, so this is what you can do to know your stuff. But yeah. When you say ‘know your stuff’, what would that all entail? What would you suggest?

Stephanie: Yeah, this is kind of the tricky thing that I’m always weighing one thing against the other where it’s knowing what you want for your birth and how to get there and then making sure that you’re vetting your provider. They really do go hand in hand but it’s really tricky because just depending on what order you take, you may have to change up one or the other. But when it comes to understanding what you need in order to have the birth that you desire, one of the things that I tell moms to do is, “Take a meditative moment. Close your eyes and take some deep breaths. Picture yourself from that very first contraction through to when you give birth. What does that look like? Where are you? Who is around you? What are the lights like? What do you smell? What do you see?”

That will help you decide. It gives you some idea of how to get there or what you’re going to need in order to get there. I’ll do this exercise with moms and moms that were planning to give birth at a hospital but never make it there in their minds. They’re at home. They don’t ever get in the car to go to the hospital. They’ve had their baby at home. So I think really understanding what you are looking for. And even for a mom that has that experience, she’s planning to give birth at a hospital, but she has this really calm, relaxing thing at home, it doesn’t necessarily mean that she needs to be giving birth at home although it could, maybe it’s more of, “So I need to have control over my body, control over the situation. I need to be in my own clothes,” and those sorts of things. 

Meagan: Oh, I love that you just said that. 

Stephanie: And really understanding what is creating that image in your mind. But of course, I’m going to talk about taking a good birth course because not only is that what I did that was so life-changing for me but that is what I help moms do today just like you have a birth course where you talk about preparing for VBAC. A good birth course is going to include all of those things like how to stay healthy and low-risk with nutrition, and good exercise that you can do not just moving your body and keeping your heart rate, but what are things positionally that you can do for yourself and your baby? How are you going to stretch the perineal area or use the specific muscles that are going to be used for birthing and labor time? 

That’s going to be all the way through understanding each phase of labor, how to work with your birth partner, how they can support you, how relaxation can be so important and meditation, all the way through to birth and postpartum. That includes every situation that can happen on the way. When you walk into your birth space, are you going to have an IV or wear your own clothes? Do you want to have intermittent fetal monitoring or do you want to be on the monitor the whole time? If you’re talking induction, what are your options? 

So I think really understanding what your options are, and some of that changes as your birth changes or as other options are provided whether or not you have gestational diabetes or if you’re GBS positive. Those are different decisions you have to play with and make, but if you like listening to podcasts, taking a good birth course, watching birth videos, if you’re gathering all of that information and coming together for yourself deciding what you want for yourself, then you can move into asking the right questions to help that provider because that really is the next step.

 

You can have this wonderful birth that you have thought of and dreamed of in your mind and if your provider is not on the same page, if they are not supportive, you might not get it at all and it’s not even your fault.

 

Meagan: I know. That is so hard because sometimes we don’t know what it looks like to have that supportive provider. We don’t know what it looks like because for me, with my first birth, I went to my OB and he was really nice and welcoming, and charming. I was like, “Cool. He’s rad. He’s great,” and then there were the red flags but I didn’t see those red flags.

 

It's so hard to know how to find that provider and you say to vet your provider. What do you mean by vetting your provider and what tips would you give to start that process and know right away what you really want to look for?

 

Stephanie: Yeah. I’m glad you asked that. I think probably one of the best things you can do is meet with more than one and different practices.

 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. Different practices are such a big thing because even the one provider in the same practice, they’re going to have similarities so it is so important to branch out. When I was going that with my VBAC baby, I did. I went to multiple people and I could physically feel the difference without even speaking to anybody.

 

Stephanie: Yes. 100%. I always said that I didn’t believe I was intuitive at all just as a person, I don’t feel like I am in touch with myself. If that’s you, you’re wrong. Just like you explained right there, we do. You know when you have conversations with other people or you walk into a room. There’s a feeling there and how you’re treated matters.

 

The problem is, I think and I mean, I’m guilty of it too. I think we put providers on this pedestal and they’re kind of untouchable. They’re above us in some way because they’re gone to school and they’ve got knowledge about things that we don’t. In some ways, maybe that’s true. That’s why we hire them because they have skills that we need that we can’t meet while we are in our vulnerable state.

 

The other side of that is that they are also a person and how they treat us matters. And so when you are asking questions and meeting with providers, how are you feeling? Were you respected? Were you rushed when you bring up something? Providers will actually eye roll or laugh at some of the things that you say. That’s a red flag.

 

Meagan: It’s so true. Yes.

 

Stephanie: I say too, you know what? Go meet with a birth center out-of-hospital provider. You don’t have to plan on giving birth there at all. Pay attention to how you are treated. How does that feel for you? For people that are maybe interested in that and they are like, “Oh, that’s so scary and my husband doesn’t want to or my birth partner really doesn’t want me out of the hospital,” great. Go take him and have a free interview with an out-of-hospital care provider and just see how you feel. If you hate it or it’s not for you, then that’s great but I think that you need to have the contrast. I think you deserve to have the contrast.

 

It’s the same with doulas. I’m like, “You don’t know if you want a doula? Great. Go meet with one anyways. It’s a free consult and then you can decide.” But vetting a provider, like I said, you have to have some questions going in. VBAC-specific moms, they’re going to want to know things like, “Okay. For a mom like me, I’m healthy and low-risk. It’s my second baby and I’ve only had one Cesarean birth. What does it look like for someone like me in your practice having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean? What are your percentage rates? Do you use the VBAC calculator or how do you decide? Do you induce? What are your reasons for induction and can I say no?” You always can but it’s always fun to ask a provider, “Can I say no?” The answer should always be yes but it might not be. “We’ll talk about it when we get there.”

 

So you have to have some specific questions that you’re bringing in to decide if this is somebody that you can handle and you are probably maybe not going to match up on every single thing. That’s okay too, but are those big things being met? I think that’s what helps you decide, “Is this going to be a good match for me or not?”

 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. And just tuning into your overall feeling. Like you said, providers can eye roll and they can be subtle. They can be subtle, really subtle, right? Even midwives can do that too.

 

Stephanie: Oh totally, yes.

 

Meagan: OBs, midwives, it’s so important to really tune into that. I think it’s so important to do that even before becoming pregnant too. Sometimes to find an OB—if you are thinking that you want to become pregnant soon and you have an OB or a midwife, start there. That’s totally fine, but it’s okay to branch out and say, “I’m not expecting yet. I’m preparing. I want to find that provider right from the beginning.” Sometimes that doesn’t happen, but I think it’s good to do if you can. I mean, I wasn’t pregnant and I went to 12 providers.

 

Stephanie: I love it.

 

Meagan: 12 providers which were maybe excessive. Maybe, but that’s what I needed. I needed to go and I needed to hear all of their things and feel all of that in those environments. I chose the provider that I thought was totally amazing. He still is. I’m not saying he’s not, but for me, I thought he was perfect. He was exactly what I needed out of everybody and then I still changed at 24 weeks, right?

 

And so a lot of people are like, “Why would you change? He’s so supportive.” I’m like, “He is so supportive and I still feel all the good, but something is not resonating.” That’s okay too. Even if you do find your provider. Say at your appointment, you find your provider and you’re not feeling it or you’re getting things like Stephanie where it’s like, “Hey, this is what I want to do.” “We don’t talk about that yet.” Those types of things, if they are not willing to hear you and they don’t want to know how they can help you in this birth experience, are red flags.

 

Don’t feel like you have to stay like both Stephanie and I did because I felt like I had to stay too. I felt like I was cheating on my provider if I left him. He had gone this far with me. He had supported me this far, but at the same time, I truly believe I probably wouldn’t have had that second Cesarean. I really don’t believe that if I would have changed, but it’s okay because it’s my birth story and that’s why I’m here, but it’s okay. It’s okay if you’re feeling off and you want to change. It’s okay to do that.

 

Stephanie: Yeah. I think you can’t shout that from the rooftops enough because it’s true. You do feel like, “Oh, I’m going to hurt their feelings or something.” No, you’re not and if you do, who cares? You’re never going to see them again. Let it go.

 

Meagan: Exactly.

 

Stephanie: It’s so important for you and your future. It’s such an important moment for you. It doesn’t matter. It should trump that.

 

Meagan: It should trump that. Someone else’s feelings. That’s the hardest thing. We have so many people out there. If you are a people pleaser, you’re not alone and it’s easy to please your provider. You want to please your provider, but remember, they are working for you. They are there for you. If they’re not pleasing you, it’s okay to leave. It is okay to leave and so yeah. It’s a hard thing to do, but I do encourage people to tune in, follow their hearts, tune into that and do what’s best for them because if they don’t truly vet their provider, it can make or break an experience.

 

Stephanie: Yeah, it can. A good provider is going to help make it just like you said. My midwife and my doula who were in that third birth, oh my gosh. They are a part of my life forever whether they like it or not. You are bonded with those people forever and you need that kind of support in your life.

 

Meagan: Right, yes. Yes. Okay, so we’re talking about knowing your stuff and vetting your provider. Now, let’s talk about putting in the work. We’ve got these things. Now, going for it. What things would you suggest?

 

Stephanie: Yeah as far as putting in the work, I really recommend– and I have it on my website as well and you can tell me if you like these ideas or not, but I recommend these three exercises that you can do every day. First is the forward-leaning inversion. You’re literally—you get up on a low-lying chair or couch probably with support. Put a pillow down in front of you. Get your elbows on the ground with your bum in the air and you hold that for three breaths. You do that once a day. If you’re somebody who has heartburn or something, obviously, you’re maybe going to want to not do that depending on how the heartburn is or there are a couple of people who shouldn’t do that.

 

Basically, that is really good because it releases certain ligaments. It allows more room for baby. It allows for really good positioning. That’s something that you can do to make sure baby is in a good position.

 

Meagan: Every day.

 

Stephanie: Every day. An easier, more comfortable labor. The other thing you’re going to do is pelvic tilts. You can choose to do how many you want, but I like to do them at least when I get up in the morning and before I go to bed. That’s 20-40 tilts. That’s in the hands-and-knees position. You’re tilting your pelvis forward and into a flat back, forward and into a flat back.

 

Again, that’s strengthening certain areas. It’s helping baby’s position. Those are really, really good for you to be doing.

 

The third one is the squat. This is a deep-seated squat. It’s not like we are going to grab weights and do a weighted squat or anything like that. This is like how you see people in third-world countries who don’t have chairs or new babies, toddlers when they go down to squat and play with something, look at that squat because that’s the one that you are going for.

 

The reason for that is because it stretches the perineal area. It strengthens the muscles in your legs. Chances are when it was pushing time, you’re going to be in some kind of squat. Now maybe not, but chances are the majority of us are going to end up there. The other thing about squatting is that it shortens the birth canal, it makes it easier to be able to push baby out and that’s why we end up in that position but if you’re practicing that squat specifically, and this is where my husband was so good. “I’ll tell you what, for every minute you squat for the day, I will give you a minute of massage at the end of the night.” I was like--

 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Done. Done, done, done.

 

Stephanie: An hour a night, I am not joking. So he was so good supporting me that way, but I’ll tell you what, when I started squatting and it was probably later in my pregnancy like 34-35 weeks. When I started squatting, it was 1-2, maybe 3 minutes before my legs were numb, my feet hurt and I had to stand up. Everything was tingling, but a couple of weeks in, I could hold it for 15 minutes comfortably.

 

So when I was telling you before that I was pushing for 4.5 hours, I was in a birth tub in a squatted position for that amount of time—

 

Meagan: Wow.

 

Stephanie: --and I remember thinking, “I’m so glad I practiced these squats because I wouldn’t have had the stamina.” As far as physical prep, those are things that you can do every single day.

 

Meagan: I love that.

 

Stephanie: Thank you. I know and I’m like, you and I have taken some similar training and stuff. It’s valid. It’s real.

 

Meagan: It really is.

 

Stephanie: The other things that you can do are, let’s stay healthy and low-risk. That means you’re eating a high-protein diet. You’re drinking a lot of water. You’re taking your prenatals, well-balanced. That matters because it can keep things like preeclampsia at bay. It’s also going to make you feel better and give you more energy, so there are a lot of benefits to that. But my favorite part of staying healthy and low-risk is that you remain in charge of your birth decisions. That’s why it matters to me so much. It’s not even just for the health of myself and my baby. It also comes down to, “I want to have a say as to how all of this goes.”

 

So those are some of the physical things. Then we move into the, once I understand how birth works, what are the signs that I’m in labor? What are the signs I’m in active labor? How do I work with my body? Learning things like relaxation and I do that through relaxation practice. Even just a simple one, and you can do this with your birth partner or by yourself, but you set up this stage. So use your senses. You should be leaning back in a chair or in your bed lights dimmed with essential oil or a consistent smell that your body gets used to smell. You just practice breathing deep into your belly. Imagine how you breathe when you wake up in the morning. First thing, pay attention to how you breathe when your eyes first open. It’s really deep belly breaths so try to aim for that.

 

Do that for 10 minutes. Just go from your head to your toe and be like, “Okay. I’m going to feel the hairs on my head relax, and then my eyebrows, and then my jaw.” All the way down. The thing is, it’s not easy to do when you’re not used to relaxing but when you utilize all of those senses, then it becomes something called muscle memory.

 

So if I know my body knows because I’ve been doing this for the last several months that every time the lights are dimmed and I smell lavender essential oil and I’m breathing into my belly, then when you do those things during labor, it’s like, “Oh, lights are dimmed and lavender,” then you don’t really have to think about it.

 

Meagan: It’s intuitive.

 

Stephanie: Yes. “I’m supposed to relax now.” And then obviously you need to practice relaxation. Once you get good at that, you can practice it with the lights on, with the TV on, with your husband or kids walking through the room because that’s the reality of birth and especially if you’re in a hospital.

 

Meagan: Yes, yes.

 

Stephanie: But learning relaxation is really important. And then you move into—there’s a lot more to do with that like meditation and the mental stuff and all of that. Labor rehearsal where you practice with ice and other things. There is plenty that you can do, but I would say relaxation, your three exercises, and staying healthy and low-risk are probably just top of the list things that you can do on a daily basis.

 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I love it. So good, so good. I love that you talked about preparing and then it becomes muscle memory. It’s so true. It’s so, so true. I encourage if you’re ever in a moment where you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed to dive into that because there are going to be moments in labor and birth when you might feel stressed and overwhelmed. If you can practice doing that in those moments, oh my gosh. It’s going to be so beneficial.

 

So I know we’re almost out of time, but I wanted to ask you what is a secret lesson or something no one really talks about that you wish you would have known ahead of time when preparing for time?

 

Stephanie: That would be that you can say ‘no’ to anything. I feel like I teach this all day long and I talk about it a lot. I don’t know how often moms let that register because they will know that and then you’ll get with their provider and they’re doing non-stress tests or whatever and it’s like, all of a sudden, oh crap. I need this and this and this. No. You can actually say ‘no’ to literally anything.

 

Meagan: Anything, yeah.

 

Stephanie: Anything, yeah. They can’t do anything. The best that they can do is make you sign, what is it?

 

Meagan: An AMA.

 

Stephanie: A medical release, yeah. AMA, against medical advice.

 

Meagan: Against medical advice.

 

Stephanie: Sign it. Sign it. It’s your body. You get to choose. And then kind of like I talked about, when I talk about health and nutrition, I think a lot of times, moms don’t register. “Okay, yeah. I get it. I’m supposed to be healthy.” But it’s so you can be low-risk and in charge of your birth. I think that’s a really important part of that.

 

Meagan: Yes. I think so too. It’s so hard. It’s so hard to be in that moment and be like, “Uh, okay.” When you’re like, “I really wanted to say no. I had a prenatal last night with a client and they were like, “One of the biggest things that we don’t want to do is go in and just say yes to everything. That’s one of their biggest goals is not to just say yes to everything. They’re not saying, “We want to refuse everything,” they’re just saying, “We want to be educated and we want to know what we’re saying yes to.”

 

It's so important to know. If you are saying yes, know why you are saying yes. And if not, it’s okay to say no or “One moment. Let me think about it.” It’s okay because there are times where things are going to be thrown at you and it is hard to say, “No” or actually, “I want more time” or “I’m not sure about that right now” but you can. You can. You have the right to say no. You have the right. So it’s so important to know. I love that. Any last final tips for someone preparing for VBAC that you would like to give to our listeners?

 

Stephanie: I think we’ve kind of touched on this before. It just really matters who you pick for your provider. I know we kind of talked about some things that warrant a red flag or time to interview somebody else or something, but really, if you’ve got that education and you’ve got that provider piece, you’re setting yourself up for success. It should be somebody that supports you, not tolerates the opportunity to try for a VBAC, but somebody who believes in the natural process of birth and that having a vaginal birth after a Cesarean is more healthy and safer for mom and baby than having another abdominal surgery. I think that matters that you’ve got somebody that believes that way.

 

Meagan: Totally. I love that. Oh, well thank you so much for being here with us today. I want you listeners to know that she has the three free, that’s what you say, right?

 

Stephanie: Yes, three free exercises.

 

Meagan: Three free exercises. I’m having a hard time lately with tongue twisters. Three free exercises, so we are going to be providing that in our email. If you’re not subscribed to our email, please check it out because we are going to be providing so many new things and some really exciting upcoming things with The VBAC Link are going to be happening.

 

We are going to be providing that and then will you tell everybody where they can find you? Because everyone needs to know where you’re at and follow you.

 

Stephanie: Thank you, yes. So I too have a podcast. It is called Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy. Pregnancy and Birth Made Easy is the podcast so anywhere you listen to podcasts, you can take that in. I’m also on Instagram @myessentialbirth, Facebook, TikTok, all the things, and then if you are looking for information on the birth course or anything else in regards to where some of the podcast show notes and some of that live, it’s myessentialbirth.com.

 

Meagan: Yes and all of these will be listed in our show notes today so if you want to go follow her which I promise you that you do, go click that and give her a follow because her content is amazing. Her podcast is amazing and it’s been such an honor to have you here today.

 

Stephanie: Thank you, Meagan. I love what you do too and I love that we get to do this together.

 

Meagan: Me too. Yeah, so before we let everyone go, I didn’t really give a full, “Hey, we know each other,” but we actually were in the same doula course. We became doulas together which seems like forever ago, but it was so fun to be there and to learn. You had already had your VBACs, hadn’t you?

 

Stephanie: I did.

 

Meagan: Yes and I hadn’t yet. I had only had my two Cesareans and so I just remember you being so inspirational to me and motivating me. I was like, “Okay. She could do it. She’s here. She is doing this too. We have the same interests,” and I just connected to you so much.

 

Stephanie: Same, yeah. Well then, and now look at you with The VBAC Link. You just took off. I love it.

 

Meagan: I love being here and I love being here with all of our listeners, so again, listeners, thank you so much for being here with us today, and thanks again, Steph.

 

Stephanie: Thank you.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Megan joins us today all the way from England! Megan planned for a home birth after a Cesarean with a wonderful team of midwives. She was well-prepared for any potential outcomes and made sure to secure continuity of care in the case of a hospital transfer. 

27 hours after her waters broke with intense contractions and no sleep, Megan was devastated to learn that she wasn’t even dilated at all. 

She was thankful for the supportive midwife team she had in place at the hospital. As her birth experience presented the unexpected, Megan embraced flexibility. Interventions she didn’t initially plan for brought pain relief, rest, progression, and her VBAC! 

Our guest cohost and certified VBAC Link doula, Madison, shares her love and wisdom throughout this episode as well. 

Additional Links

Madison's Doula Website

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Hello, hello. I cannot believe 2022 is almost over. We only have one episode left of the year, but this episode is going to be amazing. We are so happy that you are still with us for 2022 and we can’t wait until 2023 because we’re going to have really fun things coming. 

I want to share with you, you’ve probably heard it a little bit in the past, that I’ve been having some co-hosts on the show and it’s so fun to have different voices and people from all over the world sharing reviews and being involved in these stories. These are all of our certified birth doulas who are really fun birth workers. Today, our special guest is Madison and it is so fun to have you, Madison. Thank you so much for being with us. 

Madison: I’m so excited to be here, Meagan. I am a Cesarean mom myself and I haven’t had my VBAC yet, but taking your class and being able to support VBAC moms better through your class was just amazing, so thank you. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: Yes. Thank you, thank you. Well, I would love to turn the time over to you to read a review. 

Madison: Yes, so this review, the title is “Confidence Boost” and it is from a user named musicfeedsthesoul. I love that. The review says, “Meagan and Julie, thank you, thank you, thank you for what you have built here. Story after story, my confidence in myself and my plans for a successful VBAC were lifted. I learned so much from you” and then she put in parentheses “(cervix nerd over here) and your experience with them watching Women of Strength birth the way they desire. I hired a doula for my VBAC baby boy’s birth born on 8/20/22” so not that long ago.

Meagan: Oh my goodness, not long at all. Congratulations. 

Madison: Yes, congratulations. That’s so exciting. She says, “And I felt so in control. So confident in my body and my ability to advocate for myself in the hospital room all thanks to you. Got my VBAC!!!” Love it. “Feeling him come out of my and having him onto my chest was the greatest single moment of relief and joy I’ve ever felt. Thank you for being there along this journey. Big hugs to both of you. 

Meagan: Oh, that seriously just gave me chills. It gives me chills to hear that. 

Madison: Same. 

Meagan: That makes me so happy for her and thank you so much for leaving a review. We really do love these reviews. We like to share them on the podcast. We love hearing them. Some of them even make us cry. They give us chills and they keep us going. They keep me going. I love them. When I see a review come in, I’m like, “Okay. Yes. There is a reason why I’m here” and the reason why I’m here is that I’m doing this and it is helping. I make a difference and I love it. I know that kind of sounds silly because I’m like, “I make a difference,” but that’s what I want to do. I want to try and make a difference in people’s lives and let them figure out how they want to have birth and educate them and empower them no matter if that’s a Cesarean or a VBAC. 

So I love it. Please leave your reviews. Google, email, Facebook, you can Instagram us. Apple Podcasts. I think even Google Play or whatever the one is for Android. I think you can leave a review there as well. They really are so appreciated. 

Megan’s Story

Meagan: Okay. We are going to get into Megan’s story. I just want to share a little bit about her. Her VBAC baby actually is- how old is she, Megan?- did you say 12 weeks old? 

Megan: Yeah. She’ll be 12 weeks this Sunday. 

Meagan: Yeah, 12 weeks! Just little. Just little. She’s here recording with us which is so awesome. She is living in England and some of the highlights of her birth are a long labor, following intuition, and then you know that term that we are all labeled “failure to progress”, she also had that label which I don’t love. I’ve also had that label personally. And then she actually is a mental therapist by trade. 

So Megan, I feel like I’d love to know more about that at the end too. But let’s turn the time over to you to get this amazing story out here with the world. 

Megan: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Thank you for that introduction. I’m really happy to be able to share my story because I’ve listened to so many birth stories during my pregnancy and it was really, really helpful for me to feel confident and prepared as much as I could be to have a VBAC. 

So I have two baby girls. Like Meagan said, one that just turned 12 weeks and that’s is my VBAC, or is about to turn 12 weeks, and is my VBAC and then my first baby girl is now a toddler. She’s two and a quarter, so the babies are just over two years. Two years and one month apart. That baby was born by Cesarean because she was breech. She was born in June 2020 a couple of months right after the start of the pandemic. She was breech throughout the entire pregnancy. 

Actually, my husband was born breech so I just kind of had a hunch throughout the pregnancy towards the end especially when it started to be more of a concern to the OB that I was seeing that she was going to stay breech. I did, like so many women, try everything to get her to flip but she didn’t. 

Meagan: Did your provider offer to– I’m always curious. Did your provider offer any help on their end?

Megan: Yeah, they offered the ECV, so the external cephalic version I think is what it stands for, but they said that the success rate, I think, is only 1 in 3 for first-time moms. So, fortunately, it wasn’t, I had heard a lot of stories about that being really horrendous. It wasn’t a bad experience for me and it just didn’t work. I think my provider was pretty gentle about it which was why it didn’t actually hurt that bad for me. But he gave a couple of pushes to try to turn her around and just could really tell that because of her position, I think, her little bum was right underneath my hip. He was like, “Nope. She’s not budging at all.” 

I tried everything on my own and we did try the ECV too. And I actually was okay with having the scheduled Cesarean. I might have tried to find another provider, but from my research– I was living in Colorado at the time. 

Madison: That’s where I’m from. That’s where I’m living right now. 

Megan: Oh cool, cool. Yeah. We are a military family so we were in Colorado Springs. 

Madison: Gotcha. 

Megan: But from my research, there wasn’t a provider in Colorado. Dr. Stu in California which is my home state, I would have, but it was the start of the pandemic and I was like, “I’m not going to travel states. I don’t even know about getting on a plane right now.” It just wasn’t going to happen and I was okay. I was okay. I am a planner. I liked the idea of having it planned. We could get kennels arranged for our dogs and I just kind of found the silver lining in it and was okay with it. 

But the morning of my firstborn’s birth, I asked my OB, “How long do I have to wait to get pregnant” because we knew we wanted at least another baby “in order to get a VBAC?” So I had on my mind before even the Cesarean that I would want to have a VBAC. His answer, interestingly, was only six months so I was surprised to hear that. My babies are much further apart than that, but I know that a big question that a lot of women do ask is, “How long do I have to wait in order to have a VBAC?” And he said, “Just six months.”

Meagan: There are different studies out there, so that’s the crazy thing is some of them say, “After six months, there’s no difference” and some people say, “If it’s before 18 months, it’s a really high risk.” It’s interesting how provider to provider, you’ll find that different number. 

Megan: Yeah, yeah. I thought that it was interesting. He seemed like he was a pretty conservative– he wouldn’t have even entertained the idea of a vaginal breech birth. He seemed pretty traditional. He was kind of an older provider. So yeah. Six months and he seemed like he was conservative too. 

But the Cesarean was a good experience for me. It really wasn’t bad. There was nothing about it. Even the recovery went well. It is kind of a strange thing to one minute– it’s so fast. And now, here’s your baby. They just kind of produce this baby from you. So that part was a little bit strange and I didn’t feel super connected with the birthing experience. I thought that maybe had something to do with it, but it wasn’t bad. There was nothing about it that was bad. 

Like I said, even the healing was fine. It took me maybe about three weeks to kind of start to feel more myself and like I could move without pain. I did have hypertension during that pregnancy, gestational hypertension and it came back postpartum so that was a little complication, but that wasn’t related, I don’t think, to the Cesarean at all. 

So yeah. Moving on to the VBAC, the birth that I’m most interested in talking about today. I got pregnant when my firstborn was about 15 months and the pregnancy was super, super smooth sailing. I didn’t even have hypertension and knew that I wanted a VBAC like I said, before I even got pregnant. That was always the plan. The way the care works here is that you are seen by midwives in England. 

So we moved as a family to England in August of 2020 when my toddler was only 9 weeks old because like I said, we are a military family. We got assigned here. The care does look quite different here in the UK, but it’s midwifery-led. You’re seen by a doctor if you have any risk factors and having a previous Cesarean is considered one of the ones where I would need to be seen by a consultant is what they call them. I don’t think they are considered obstetricians but by a doctor. 

I was talking about my birth plan at 12 weeks during that first ultrasound that they offered and they said that they would be supportive of a VBAC, so that felt really good then around the middle of the pregnancy, my husband and I started to talk a little bit more about the birth plan. I started to have some anxiety about who was going to watch our toddler while we had the baby since we are here and don’t have any family here in England. 

My husband suggested and kind of started to almost push the idea of a home birth which really surprised me from him. I didn’t even think it would be something that he’d be comfortable with, so for it to be his idea came as a surprise. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Megan: Yeah, yeah. My husband surprises me all the time in really cool ways. So yeah. I started to look more into that as an option and to talk to the midwife that I was working with. She explained to me that it was considered against medical advice since I had the Cesarean, but I think in the UK they are actually required, I might be wrong by that, to offer a home birth so I could continue to explore it even though it wasn’t necessarily encouraged. 

Around, I would say, 28 weeks, maybe 30 weeks, I told them that I was interested in planning that. I met with a consultant who was that same doctor who I think was basically trying to talk me out of the idea at 34 weeks. My husband came to that appointment and we both felt like, “No, let’s continue to move forward with the plan.” 

So one of the things that I think is really beautiful about the way that they do birth here in the UK is that while there’s no continuity of care necessarily in terms of seeing the same doctor and the same midwife every time I had an appointment, there is continuity of care in terms of if I had planned home birth and at any point, even if I decided– so if I woke up the morning that I went into labor and said, “No, I want to go to the hospital,” I could easily just go to the hospital. 

So I liked the idea of planning a home birth because it gave me the option of having a home birth and I could change my mind at any point versus if I hadn’t planned a home birth, I couldn’t wake up and decide, “I just want to have this baby at home today,” and have the support of the midwives if that makes sense. I wasn’t necessarily dead-set. Like I said, it was more my husband’s idea of having a home birth, but some of the things that did appeal to me about it was one, I knew that I would have some more flexibility of staying home longer with my toddler and if I felt like her being around me when I was in labor wasn’t scary for her or a distraction for me, then she could even stay. I heard a lot of beautiful stories of women having their babies in the middle of the night and then their toddler wakes up to a baby and never has to even go anywhere. So that appeals to me. 

And then also, I really wanted a VBAC. I was really set on the idea of a VBAC even though a Cesarean wasn’t a bad experience for me. It was just an experience that I wanted. From the research I had done, you were much more likely to be able to have a successful VBAC if you stayed at home. If you originally planned a home birth, even if you didn’t end up giving birth at home. I knew that it would help me to avoid that cascade of interventions earlier on so that was another reason why I wanted to plan the home birth. 

So yeah. I moved forward with the home birth even though it was against medical advice even though it felt– there were a lot of decisions that I made throughout this pregnancy that felt pretty gutsy for me because I’m pretty compliant, a rule follower, I don’t like to ruffle feathers. I kind of go with the flow so it felt courageous for me to be taking a stand against these different recommendations. 

Meagan: It feels off, right? 

Megan: It can especially toward the very end when providers– so I’ll just share two. It was against medical advice for the home birth because of the Cesarean and then also towards the end of the pregnancy, I started to have some growth scans actually because I was measuring big. My fundal height was measuring big so they sent me for a growth scan and then the baby was actually small. So the baby was measuring small for gestational age and I wasn’t actually concerned about the risk of uterine rupture for me. I just wasn’t. That just wasn’t a concern for me. I had this feeling, you never know for sure, but I just didn’t feel like that would happen. 

But once they started to tell me that my baby was small and I had a provider tell me that sometimes small babies are more fragile and have a hard time tolerating that was when I really started to question my decision because I can feel, I just turned 35. I had 34 years on this planet to build confidence in my body’s capabilities, but my baby is just brand new. Anyways, even at that, I had this feeling that my baby was fine and continued to move forward with the planned home birth because she was continuing to grow but also, it’s just this balance where you don’t want to be reckless and you don’t want to be overly confident. I at least wanted to be cautious and wise. I didn’t want to just be stubborn and like I said, reckless, but I also knew deep down that everything was fine and didn’t want to be scared into making a decision that didn’t fit for me. 

So yeah. It kind of went against my character a little bit and I’m glad that I planned things the way that I did. But yeah, it definitely did take digging deep in terms of that courage piece. 

Okay. So kind of starting with, I think I covered everything about the pregnancy that I wanted to share. It was really the baby being small for gestational age and then the Cesarean that were the two complicating things in the pregnancy. 

Madison: Quick question really quick. 

Megan: Sure, yeah, please. 

Madison: What was the percentage of growth restriction? Did they say?

Megan: Yes, yes. So I had the first scan at 34 weeks and because of the position of the baby– so the sonographer did the measurements and I went back into the waiting room and came back and grabbed me and wanted to remeasure her head. She said because of her position, because she was head down, which was wonderful to hear, she couldn’t get a great measurement of the head. The head was measuring several weeks behind, so at that point, she was at the 3rd percentile which is when they start to consider it a growth restriction. 

They had me come back every two weeks and then from 36 weeks onward, she was hovering and maintaining right around the 10th percentile. It was the 8th percentile, 9th percentile, and then the last one was right at the 10th percentile so she was just barely considered small for gestational age. There is a difference between being growth restricted and being small for gestational age. 

She was continuing to grow, so when I talked to– because I did talk to the home birth midwife team about these different concerns and they said, “One, we are not concerned about your Cesarean scar at all. That doesn’t worry us.” And then two, they said that they don’t necessarily worry about baby’s size because ultrasounds can be pretty inaccurate unless the baby is not growing or there is because they also did a placenta doppler. I don’t know if they do this in the US because I didn’t have that experience when I was pregnant with my first. If there are any kind of concerns with blood flow to or from the placenta, then it wouldn’t make sense to have a home birth, but if the placenta looks fine and if the baby is growing on their own curve, they don’t worry so much about its size. 

Madison: Yes, totally. 

Megan: I actually did feel like having a smaller baby, in the end, set me up, I think, for more success with having a VBAC because she was smaller and she came out very cone headed which I was grateful for, so I think she did her part to make sure that she would be able to be born vaginally. But yeah. One provider did tell me that sometimes smaller babies can have a more difficult time tolerating labor and that was probably the one thing that I heard that made me feel most nervous about planning the home birth, but I knew if I at any point didn’t feel comfortable with it, I could go straight into the hospital. I was not dead set at all on staying home. 

Madison: Can I just say that I see that a lot, the difference between how midwives explain risk and how OBs explain risk? I feel like OBs sometimes try to pull on your heartstrings a little bit to get you to sway one way or another where it sounds like your midwives were like, “This is the reality and you get to make your own decision.” 

Megan: Yes. Yes, and I appreciated that. I felt very supported by the midwives, very supported. And if there is a risk, I want to know about it, but yeah. Exactly like you said, I felt like the midwives gave me the information and let me make a decision about it on my own whereas at least one of the doctors that I spoke to was pretty shaming and told me– so in the end, I did agree. I had this hunch throughout this whole pregnancy. I wanted a Fourth of July baby. My baby was born on July 3rd, but the baby was going to come on that specific weekend. 

So I initially did agree to an induction. They recommended induction at 39 weeks for small gestational age, so I kind of felt pressured honestly to schedule this induction at my last appointment and I knew that I would just reschedule it if I needed to. I did schedule an induction, I think it was for Friday, and then called to push it back just by a few days because I had this hunch that the baby was going to come that weekend. 

It was scheduled for Friday and I talked to a doctor about pushing, just a random doctor that I hadn’t met before because anyways that’s who had called me for the appointment, on Monday and he was very shaming. He told me I was putting my baby at serious risk and told me that the placenta was going to stop working. I got off the phone with him. I rescheduled the induction still for Monday, but got off the phone and cried and cried and cried, so I was definitely impacted by some of the things that were said to me, but I also trusted the decision that I was making and didn’t think that I was doing anything really risky by pushing the induction back by just a few days. 

Something that does bother me is that there’s a lot of conversation about the risks of not acting, but there’s not a lot of discussion about the risks of acting. And so in my mind, if small babies do have a hard time tolerating labor, then what’s it going to be like for her if I get induced? To me, that seems a lot more aggressive if I’m deciding when she’s going to come and maybe she’s not ready yet. Maybe she wants a little more time to grow and then also, just the different methods of induction can be more aggressive and more difficult for a baby. 

There was a lot of, like I said, information thrown at me on how it’s risky and not smart to not act, but no information about the risk of induction really was given to me, at least verbally. I was given some pamphlets that I could look through, but I think that’s a big piece that’s missing. I get that that’s from a place probably of providers protecting themselves from a liability perspective, but I just wish that I hadn’t been shamed because I spent a lot of during my pregnancy educating myself and I just really do feel for women who maybe haven’t done that and I did feel as confident as I could about the decisions that I was making. For someone else in a different position where maybe they hadn’t educated themselves or didn’t feel as confident in their decision or their knowledge, I think it would have been an even more vulnerable position and I just think it breaks my heart that doctors do talk to women in such a vulnerable time in their lives the way that I was spoken to. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Megan: So anyways, that was my biggest complaint towards the end of the pregnancy. Otherwise, I felt like I was empowered even from– so the consultant that I was working with throughout the pregnancy was the same provider, it just happened to be a random doctor that called me on this one day. And even he, I didn’t really like his style, but even he, I felt like, was like, “Okay. You’re going to do what you’re going to do and at the end of the day, we’re here to support you.” 

So I did appreciate that doctor for that fact. The recommendation is for induction at 39 weeks for babies that are small for gestation age, but by the time I had gone to the doctor for that final growth scan, I think I was one day shy of 39 weeks, so that doctor and I decided to schedule an induction for when I was 40+1 because I was already at 39 weeks and I was like, “My baby is growing fine. You want me to come in for an induction tomorrow? That doesn’t make any sense.” 

He agreed. “Let’s schedule it for 40+1. Let’s do a lot of” they call them stretch and sweeps here. I think maybe they are called membrane sweeps in the US. I don’t know if there’s a different term, but stretch and sweep. “Let’s do as many as possible between now and then and then have you come in at 40+1.” So I went in for my first stretch and sweep when I was 39+1 and the midwife told me, “You’re not dilated at all. We can’t even do a stretch and sweep.” She tried and it was actually really uncomfortable because my body wasn’t ready for it at all. 

I started bleeding right after that and I continued to bleed actually until my baby was born, so I just continued to kind of spot. 

Madison: Did hearing that you were not dilated at all, did that mess with your mental state at all, or did you know that this doesn’t necessarily mean anything?

Megan: Both. It definitely messed with me and the cervical checks– my whole labor turned into this mental game for me and the cervical checks did not help at all. But I also did know that cervical checks aren’t a crystal ball and that it didn’t necessarily mean anything about how things would look in the future, but it still was discouraging. But yeah. I started spotting. I started cramping. I started having menstrual cramping throughout the weeks. 

That’s why going back and having the induction one week from them felt too rushed because I was like, “Look, my body isn’t even ready for a stretch and sweep.” He wanted me to have 2-3. “How am I going to fit these in?” It was really uncomfortable for me and the fact that I bled didn’t feel good for me either. So I was like, “I’m not going to schedule one for Monday. I don’t feel ready.” So I scheduled another one for the following week and that’s one of the reasons why I pushed the induction back to Monday to what I was 40+4 I think is what it was. 

Anyways, so yeah. I went back on Friday. Thursday night, when I was on my due date, I started to have contractions. I was cramping all week, but I started to have contractions that felt rhythmic. From 1:00 AM to 6:00 AM on Thursday, so I guess it was Friday morning, I was up having contractions every ten minutes that were lasting about a minute. They weren’t painful. They got my attention and they kept me up. I was awake through that whole time, but I just put a heating pad on my pack. It was kind of intense menstrual cramps, really. But they were rhythmic. 

I woke my husband up that morning and was like, “Look, we’re having our baby today. Are you ready to have a baby?” I was really excited and then they fizzled out. Basically, as soon I announced that the baby was coming that day they stopped completely. So I went back in, that was the day I had scheduled that second stretch and sweep. I went back in in the early afternoon for that and this is when it was even more discouraging. The midwife said, “In this last week that you’ve been having all this cramping and you’ve been having these consistent contractions last night, you’re still a 0. I still can’t even do a stretch and sweep for you.”

The method of induction that I had talked to my consultant a bit about that I was the most comfortable with was the Foley bulb. I asked the midwife at the time because Friday was my original date of having the induction scheduled, I said, “Could you even place a Foley bulb right now with me not being dilated at all?” She said, “No. If you were to have come today, no. We wouldn’t have even been able to place a Foley bulb.”

So that was kind of validating. It was discouraging to hear that but also validating of my decision not to have the induction scheduled for that day because I think I would have just had everything packed and then just turned around and gone back home because I don’t think I would have agreed to another method of induction at that point. 

Okay. So that was Friday. Still not dilated at all and I was confused because I had had all of these what I thought were these contractions. The midwife asked me, “Were you feeling the contractions mostly in your back?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “Because it looks like your baby is sunny-side up, so OP I think is what it is.” Posterior, anyways, faced the wrong way. 

That was really discouraging to hear because my first baby was breech and now it was just like, “What’s with me and these babies that aren’t in the right positions?” So it kind of sounded like I was having back labor and it wasn’t productive at all because my baby wasn’t in the right position. I went home and had a normal evening except for the fact that I was exhausted because I had been up for five hours the night before and hadn’t really slept since 1:00 AM.

I told my husband and I knew that I was going to be having a baby in the next week, so I told my husband, “I need to go to sleep at 7:00 PM.” He put my toddler down for bed and I did. I went to sleep at 7:00 and woke up at midnight with, very similar to the night before, these contractions that weren’t super intense but were rhythmic and coming in a pattern. I had talked to– oh, I hired a doula. I hadn’t mentioned that, but I talked to her about the fact that the baby was in a bad position and she suggested some things to get her into the right position. One of the things that she suggested was curb walking. 

So this is going to make me sound like a crazy person, but when I had insomnia during the pregnancy, I live in a very safe neighborhood. I would sometimes get up in the middle of the night and go on walks. I had the urge to do that this night too, so at midnight, I got up and went and walked around my little village and did curb walking while listening to The VBAC Link. 

Actually, in hindsight, because my labor was so long, maybe wasn’t the wisest choice to be exercising essentially before this marathon that I was about to do, but I also don’t regret it because it was actually a really nice memory of just me alone. I was talking to God, talking to my baby, and telling my baby, “I’m ready for you to come.” I was listening to The VBAC Link like I said. My mom even called me because there is this time difference. I talked on the phone with her for a little bit and it was kind of sweet. I did a bunch of curb walking and got home at 2:00 AM and tried to go back to sleep. I laid back down and was still having the contractions rhythmically but similar to the night before where it was one every 10 minutes. 

And then, I heard a little pop sound which I would not have heard if it was during the day, but since it was at night and I happened to be awake, I heard a little pop sound. This was at 3:30 and then went to the bathroom. I couldn’t tell if I was peeing or if I was leaking fluid, but then went again and it was becoming more obvious that I was leaking fluid, but it was just a trickle. 

I was getting excited so I went downstairs. I’m not sure what I did for a half hour, but I did call the hospital and let them know, “I think my water broke.” And at this point, as soon as my water broke, I think I had this surge of adrenaline because my contractions were really intensified and I just kind of got into this state. But I did want to wait because the morning before, I had woken my husband up really early and told him, “We’re having a baby today.” I wanted to wait. I decided that 5:00 AM was a reasonable time to wake him up. I don’t know why, but that was morning because I had been up all night. 

Meagan: That was long enough. You waited long enough. 

Megan: I did. I waited an hour and a half. I called the midwife and they were going to come by to see if it was in fact my fluid. So yeah. I woke him up at 5:00 and then the midwife I think arrived at 5:30 and came to my home which I was so, so grateful that I had planned this home birth because I had midwives come to my home three different times. I would have at least for the first two times, at least the first time, at 5:30 in the morning, I would have had to go by myself. I don’t know what I would have done with just my toddler and my husband and how we would have worked that out, but having someone come to my home was really, really nice. 

I declined a cervical check at that time. She had offered one, but because my waters had broken and I know the risk of infection goes up ever so slightly once it has, so I didn’t know if there had been any progress, but at that time, she told me, “You’re clearly not in labor to where we would stay” so she left and said that she was ending her shift at 5:00 PM. She said, “Maybe I’ll see you before I end my work day.” I was like, “Maybe? Won’t you definitely? Aren’t I going to have this baby in the next few hours?” I was confused that she wasn’t sure if it would be her that would come back even though it was 12 hours from now. I did. I did feel like my contractions went from feeling noticeable to feeling uncomfortable and I was trying to do some things to keep them going because I knew that at this point, once your waters had broken, there is a little bit of this time clock that they want you to be on. 

And so I was trying to do things. I took a bath. I was trying to do things that were relaxing. I was doing things with my toddler that I thought would give me an oxytocin boost, trying to do things to keep things moving and I did. My contractions did continue. I asked my doula to come. I think she came around 12:30 in the afternoon. As soon as she arrived, I don’t think it had anything to do with her because she was wonderful and I felt supported by her, I think it was just something about maybe having someone new come into my home or something, I started to talk with her and my contractions slowed down. 

I was still having them but they weren’t as consistent, so things kind of did start to stall there and my daughter’s daycare provider, fortunately, ended up being available. So I had her come pick her up at 3:00 and my thought was, “As soon as my daughter is in good hands and I know she is being taken care of, then maybe my contractions will pick up and I’ll be able to settle into them.”

But they didn’t really. They didn’t really start to intensify again until early evening and then I think it was at 7:00 PM. So now, we’re over 12 hours since my water had broken, maybe 17 hours. Somewhere around there. I had a midwife come back to check me and she checked me again. Actually, yeah. Anyways, I don’t know if I necessarily would have wanted to be checked, but what she said was– they had told me I had a birth pool that I needed to wait until a midwife was there to get into the pool, so I asked about getting into the pool because I was wanting other options for coping with the contractions. They said, “Well, we usually recommended checking you first because we don’t want it to stall you. We want to make sure you’re far enough along.” 

I don’t know. I think they just wanted to check on me to see if they needed to stay and that was kind of a reason for it. They checked me and I still was not dilated at all. I was so discouraged! I was like, “What is my body doing if this isn’t moving forward?” I was tired at this point and starting to feel more of that pressure of this 3:30 AM deadline that was starting to feel close to needing to go into the hospital. 

So she suggested that I rest and that I take Tylenol and try to rest. I did take Tylenol and I did try to rest, but the only position that I was comfortable in during the contractions was on my hands and knees, so this whole time, I would be talking with my doula, talking with my husband, and they would know that my contraction was coming because I would collapse on my hands and knees. This whole time, that’s what I was doing to cope with the contractions. 

Meagan: That’s making me think about the position.

Megan: Yeah. 

Meagan: Asynclitic or something. 

Megan: Yeah. Yeah. I think that my body knew that that’s what I needed to do in order to get her into the right position, but it was the only way that I could cope with contractions. So I couldn’t sleep because every few minutes, the contractions were coming frequently at this point too. My doula, we decided to call the midwife back out because they wanted you to have three in 10 minutes that lasted a minute long each and I was having those, so I felt like it was a good time to have them come back. And then to hear that even though I was meeting that threshold of calling them back out, I still wasn’t dilated at all was really, really discouraging. 

But that midwife said, “Feel free. Try to get some rest. Feel free to go into your pool and call us back if things change. Otherwise, go into the hospital at 3:30 AM.” So I tried to rest, wasn’t able to rest. But I did get into the pool. I think I tried to rest from 9:00 PM to 11:00. I think I ended up getting into the pool at 11 and was in the pool for 3 hours. This is the part of my birth story that feels kind of dark. I was really loud. As soon as my water broke, I started vocalizing through all of the contractions. That’s just what my body wanted to do. 

By the time I got into the pool, I was thrashing around in the pool making crazy animal noises and I felt like a killer whale in this pool. I was alone because the doula and my husband were there, but I was in the pool by myself and I was in a lot of discomforts. I was just really discouraged. I think before I even got into the pool when I was with my husband and I went into the bed to try to rest, I told my husband, “Look. I think I just need to go to the hospital and tell them that I want another Cesarean not because I want another Cesarean and not because I am in so much discomfort that I can’t tolerate this anymore, but because my body’s not making any progress right now. I don’t know what it’s doing. I don’t think that it’s going to make any progress. I have never had this experience before of it working, so maybe my body just doesn’t work. I don’t want to continue this and exhaust myself even further just to have surgery, just to need to take care of a newborn. I don’t think I can do all of that. So why don’t we just go in for a Cesarean–” 

Madison: That’s a lot to be processing while you’re in labor. How long had it been at this point? How many hours from when you first noticed a contraction? 

Megan: It was about the 24-hour mark. 

Madison: Okay. 

Megan: And I think that if there is something about me, I think labors are just long and that can be normal and I was really grateful for my doula. That’s the biggest way that she supported me is telling me that this is normal because it did not feel normal to me at all. But I think yes. This is what I was going to say. I think that if there is something about me that isn’t so well-lined up with the birthing process, it’s that I kind of do overthink and I think I had a really hard time getting out of my thinking brain and just letting my body do what it needed to do. 

I was. These were all of the thoughts that were racing. Especially, I think it all started with that 24-hour deadline because they had even scheduled the induction at the 24-hour mark. I felt this time pressure from the very beginning and I think being in my head in that way was not helpful for my progression. So if there is something about me that made the process more difficult, I think it’s that. 

But yeah. I was definitely really discouraged before getting in the pool and then being in the pool, while it did feel good to be weightless, it did just feel like a darker– and it was the middle of the night– time when my birth felt the darkest. 

Getting closer to 3:30 AM, they had scheduled me for an induction. My doula, I think this was at 3:00 AM, suggested that I call the midwives because she could tell that things had intensified for me while I was in the pool. But I called the midwives yet again another time and asked them to come out to my home again and check me again to see if I had made any progress maybe they could stay and I could avoid having to go into the hospital because she knew that my preference was to be able to stay at home. 

The midwives came back out and the same midwife that had checked me at 7:00 PM or whatever time it was checked me again and said that I still was not dilated at all and that I looked the same as I had looked before. I was so, so, so discouraged. At that point, I kind of wanted, honestly, to go to the hospital because I wanted some support. I wanted some extra support with pain and I knew that I needed to rest. Yeah. I was at my limit. 

So we did. We got some things ready and headed to the hospital. I think we got there at 5:30 AM. Everybody talks about the car ride being horrible. The car ride was horrible. It really was because I was only comfortable on my hands and knees and I couldn’t be on my hands and knees. I did have a TENS machine that I used throughout those first 27 hours before I went to the hospital and that was actually really helpful. I recommend a TENS machine to anyone. That really helped me cope for those first 27 hours. 

So we got to the hospital and actually getting to the hospital felt like a big relief because we just had extra support. At that point, I had been up since midnight, my husband had been up since 5:00 AM. The doula, I think, had got up pretty early as well but came over to my home at 12:30-1:00 PM, so we had all been up and at it for a while. But getting to the hospital and having some fresh, energized people supported us. It turns out that we actually were the only people there which is really unusual because usually, the hospitals are pretty overloaded, but it happened to be a night when I was the only patient there. 

All the midwives brought a special energy to them which I think is because they weren’t taking care of anyone else and they were truly energized and fresh. So that felt good. They had the room set up for me with some pretty lighting. The town I live in in England is known for having a pretty cathedral and it had a view of the cathedral. I felt really welcomed and supported upon arrival at the hospital. I was never against the idea of going to the hospital, but it felt like a turning point in the labor arriving there and having such a sweet welcome. 

So I got there and they talked to me about some different options for some pain relief. They offered me an injection of diamorphine which they said could cause some problems for the baby. It could make them a little sleepy so they don’t recommend it if you’re about to give birth, but it can be great for these earlier stages of labor when you’re not dilated. 

And then the doctor that was there came in who was wonderful. She suggested that I get on IV antibiotics. I wasn’t hugely concerned. In fact, The VBAC Link episode that I was listening to right before my water broke actually was an interview with Dr. Stu and he had mentioned that the risk of infection only goes from .5% to 1% once your water is broken, so I didn’t think there was a huge risk of infection, but at this point at the 24-hour mark, I was happy to go into the hospital because I didn’t feel like I was coping well with labor and I just needed more support with pain management and to rest. 

But also, I was like, “Okay. I’m already against medical advice because of the Cesarean. I’m already against medical advice for home birth for this home birth.” I really didn’t want there to be this third risk factor that I was fighting up against. I was happy to go into the hospital at this point even though I wasn’t really concerned about the increased risk of infection at the 24-hour mark. I felt like it was this artificial timeline, but again, didn’t want to be pushing back against a third reason to not have a home birth. 

So she suggested IV antibiotics which I agreed to and then suggested that I be started on Pitocin so the Foley bulb, I guess, wasn’t an option anymore because my water had broken is what she said. She also suggested another cervical check which I didn’t really want, but she said it could be helpful for her to take a look at my waters and make sure that they are fully broken because I guess sometimes if they are not fully broken, then there can be a cushion of the water bag that maybe prevents there being that full pressure against the cervix which can prevent dilation. 

She did. She said there was a little bit of fluid in between my baby’s head and my cervix. She broke that. They started me on IV antibiotics. I did get this diamorphine injection and was able to rest. I was started on Pitocin. I was able to rest. The diamorphine that they gave me did really allow me to rest in between contractions. I could still feel them and then they started the Pitocin at 8:30 AM. I think around a few hours into that, the medication started to wear off. The injection that I got was only supposed to last about 4 hours and the Pitocin really started to intensify my contractions. 

They were just on top of each other, so before I had been getting a break in between them, but these were back to back which was kind of the point– and I did ask them to do the Pitocin slow and to tell me before they increased the dose. Those were my requests because I know that they can sometimes up the Pitocin maybe without telling you once you have the IV placed and then also they can maybe increase the dose pretty quickly. They did give me a smaller amount and increased it slowly, but I could feel the contractions intensify where I eventually asked, I think around 11:00 AM, to turn it back down because I wasn’t coping well with the pain from the Pitocin especially with having such a long labor already. 

At that point, the midwife was like, “Look, this is going to work or this isn’t going to work. We really need to give the Pitocin an opportunity to work,” so she wanted me to keep the higher dose of Pitocin. I said, “Okay, but I need more pain relief,” so I did get the epidural which was kind of hard for me because I didn’t originally want that and also really because in my mind, any intervention that I did decrease my ability to have a VBAC. 

But also, in my mind, I still wasn’t dilated at all and so I’m like, “Look, I’m needing an epidural when I still haven’t dilated at all.” I just felt a little bit pathetic about that. But I did. I got the epidural and that worked really well. I didn’t have any pain hardly at all. I could hardly even feel those contractions and then at the 6-hour mark from when they had started the Pitocin. They started it at 8:30. They checked me again at 2:30 and I should say, an hour before this, I started to feel a lot of pressure on my behind. I just started to feel a lot, a lot of pressure. I told the midwife that and she said that it was a good sign. 

When she checked me at 2:30 PM, she said, “The baby’s head is right there.” That was just the sweetest moment for me. I felt so much relief. 

Meagan: After all of it too, it’s like, “Yes.”

Megan: I was in disbelief in all of the right ways. I was just so, so, so happy and so relieved. It was not what I was expecting to hear. Honestly, I was kind of expecting to hear the same thing I had heard so far like, “Oh, still not dilated at all.” I knew at that point that the recommendation would be for a Cesarean, so I was really, really happy. I was overjoyed. 

What they suggested was that we wait an hour from then. They give you an hour to relax and rest and then you start pushing. That hour was the sweetest time in my whole labor experience because my husband and I talked about what position I wanted to push in. My husband and I finally decided. We had the hardest time naming this baby and decided on a name for our baby. I was just overjoyed. 

So yeah. Then an hour came and it was time to push. I decided that I wanted to push in a squatting position because the hands and knees position, even though that was the position I wanted to be in the whole time, felt a little bit vulnerable for me. With all of these people behind me, I wanted to see what was going on so I wanted to be facing forward and I wanted to be squatting. 

The pushing phase didn’t– so I did have the epidural although I had a really low dose. You can do clicks of it and I had done the first two clicks but hadn’t done it in a while, so I was able to feel the pushing, but it didn’t feel painful for me. It could have been because of the anesthesia. It could be because I am someone who actually felt relief because I know that’s the case for some women, but they started to– this was the frustrating part. One of the frustrating things about being in the hospital was that they had these CTG monitors here. It’s like the non-stress test bands on your tummy that they wanted me to have the whole time. But because I was on my hands and knees throughout the birth, they kept shifting around, and then they’d be concerned about losing the tracing on the baby. 

Anyways, so when I was pushing in the squatting position, I was leaning forward and the monitor shifted. So while I was pushing, they started to have some concerns about the baby’s heartbeat even though I think it was just that it shifted and it started to pick up my heartbeat instead because after the baby was born, that’s what they told me may have happened. But there was this drama around the pushing phase of, “We need to get this baby out right now.” They were suggesting episiotomy. They were suggesting forceps and it just felt like this huge sense of urgency. 

They called the doctor in and all of these people were rushing in. I wasn’t super concerned about my baby’s well-being at that moment, but I also was like, “I know that I need to get this baby out.” So I did. I pushed her out in 20 minutes I think it was. She came pretty quickly and that was exhausting after everything I had been doing. I was so grateful that I had the rest that I had both from the pain relief that was injected and also from the epidural because even though there are parts of you that don’t like the fact that I needed the pain relief, I think in the end, I needed that rest in order to be able to effectively push her out as quickly as I was able to because it was such hard physical work to push her out. I felt like I needed to do it really quickly. 

But yeah. She came. She was born at 4:14 PM. She came out. She was 6.5 pounds. A little, super skinny thing and she’s the sweetest baby. She’s the very, very sweetest baby. I felt so grateful to be able to have a VBAC and so much relief that she was okay after everything. The doctor who came into the room when they called him in I think also knew that the monitoring was just kind of funky because he told me at the moment, even before he got fully involved, that my baby was fine and winked at me and gave my husband a thumbs up. 

I was just grateful for him even within some of the panic of the pushing phase and of really the whole pregnancy and the whole birthing experience, I was grateful for the calm and the peace that I did experience throughout it all. And yeah. She was perfectly healthy. They, I guess, test the blood of the placenta to make sure that she wasn’t oxygen deprived more than they would expect a baby to be and she wasn’t, so they didn’t have any concerns with her after she was born. They didn’t have any concerns about infection. The cord was wrapped around her neck multiple times and her whole body. I had the longest cord the midwife had ever seen and she said she had been practicing for a while, but I wouldn’t have even known had they not told me. She was absolutely fine.

The midwife gave me a tour of the placenta. I told them that I was interested in seeing the placenta and she was like, “Oh, that’s my favorite,” and gave me a whole tour of it. She showed me everything and was really enthusiastic about it. They brought me toast and tea for me and my doula and my husband afterward which is a cultural thing here to have and that was also a really sweet moment. I tried to get the baby to latch right away. She just was with me the whole time. We didn’t have to be separated at all. 

And yeah. It was a good experience in the end. There are some things looking back that maybe I would have liked to do differently or I might do differently next time, but in the end, I was processing some of this with my husband last week in preparation for knowing that I had this interview and my husband was like, “But look, we got what we wanted,” and that’s true. Even if maybe, I needed more pain relief that I wanted or there are different things that were a little bit more chaotic or dramatic in the end, we got what we wanted and there are more things about my birth experience that I’m happy with than maybe parts of it that I wish maybe were a little bit different. So in the end, it was good. 

Meagan: I love it. Sometimes those ends when it’s like, “I’ve got to do this right now,” it can be really intense. Really intense, but I think it’s pretty incredible how we are just capable of dialing in 150,000% and just getting the job done. 

Megan: I felt like my eyes were going to come out of their sockets, I was pushing so hard. 

Meagan: You were pushing so hard. 

Megan: I really didn’t want an episiotomy or the forceps so that was also a motivator for me. Because I wasn’t actually that concerned about my baby. There was this peace that kind of transcended the whole experience, a peace that was incongruent with what was going on in the room that almost felt like, “Okay, I’ll get this baby out as quickly as possible to keep you all happy, but my baby’s fine and I’m fine.” And then to have the doctor come into the room and kind of reflect back to me what I was already experiencing that my baby’s fine, I’m fine and everything is going to be fine. But providers see things. They see bad outcomes probably more often than they would like to, so they are geared up, especially in a hospital setting for being prepared for something going south. So I don’t necessarily fault them for that. 

Meagan: Yeah. For sure. Awesome. Awesome. Well, huge congrats. Love on that little one. Thank you for sharing and taking the time today to be with us. Madison, is there anything that you wanted to share today as well? I want to make sure we hear your voice before we end. 

Madison: Yeah. I just wanted to say, Megan, the difference in your birth stories and how you really emphasized that you made sure that you got educated the second time around, I’m a birth educator at a birth center here in the area and that’s my whole thing. Education is the way that you can, first off, minimize birth trauma and second, have your best chance at not only a vaginal birth but a positive birth experience. Education is so, so important so I’m just really happy that you did that for yourself. An amazing birth story. I’m so proud of you as a doula. 

Megan: Thank you, yeah. The education piece is so important. I don’t think you can educate yourself enough. I really don’t because I had educated myself and there were still a lot of things that came up. I wasn’t expecting my waters to break before. There were still things that come up that you might not know a ton about. I think it’s also okay to ask for education at the moment which I didn’t do enough of but to ask for the information if you’re in a state to do so at the moment because you can’t educate yourself enough and there are going to be things that will come up that maybe you don’t know everything about. Information is power. 

Madison: Yes. Hiring a well-educated doula is a great way to be able to get that information at the moment too if you are not comfortable asking questions to your provider at the moment. 

Megan: Yes. I agree. I’m very grateful for my doula.

Meagan: Awesome. Well, thank you ladies for being with us today. It was such a pleasure. 

Megan: Thank you. 

Madison: Thank you, Meagan. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

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Meagan is joined today by the amazing Eyla Cuenca! Eyla’s many years of experience as a birth worker have led her to specialize in holistic birth guidance. She helps women process past birth experiences and prepare for the most optimal future birth experiences. 

Eyla has so much wisdom and such a beautiful way with words. You will definitely want to take notes and save her advice!

“There is no right way to do things. It’s simply what is in alignment with you. That’s what matters at the end of the day.”

Additional Links

Eyla's Website

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details

Full Transcript

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Meagan: Hello, hello. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have an episode today to bring to you all about preparing, processing, and so many other things. This is something that a lot of people will write us about on our Instagram, our email box, “How do I process my previous births? How do I process what I’m going into and how do I prepare for birth when I’ve never even given birth?”

Now, I want to just note on that right there that just because you’ve had a Cesarean does not mean you haven’t given birth. That is just simply not true, so if that is in your headspace, I want you to crinkle it all up and throw it away. You have given birth. 

You just haven’t maybe labored because I know for me, I hadn’t labored. I hadn’t progressed. I hadn’t dilated, but that left me questioning, “Could I dilate?” especially when I had a provider telling me that I couldn’t. 

So I’m excited today to bring Eyla on. She is going to talk all about the wonderful things that she does. Eyla is a holistic birth guide doula, trainer, childbirth educator, lactation counselor, health freedom advocate, and mother. That is a lot just right there. Her work is dedicated to offering guidance that supports women and men in the process that is a return to the deepest knowing about birth, individual sovereignty, and the body’s innate intelligence. 

Wow. 

A conscious birth building a conscious world.

Does that just give you chills? Because that just gave me chills. Eyla, thank you so much for being here with all of us today and taking the time out of your very busy life where you do a whole bunch of things. In fact, you even mentioned in the beginning that you homeschool. What do you not do? What do you not do? Seriously, thank you so much. 

Normally, we read a review, but we are actually just going to get right into it. I want to know more about what led you into doing what you do today, all of the many things. 

Eyla: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I’m super excited to be here. So what led me to this? I actually was a birth photographer for many years before I started holding space as a birth doula and before I became a childbirth educator. I’ve been in the birth space for quite a long time. What I started noticing as a photographer, kind of a fly on the wall, was how different births were unfolding for women in different environments and how her birth team would also influence the energy feel of the birth. 

I started taking note of all of these factors. I was a part of a few transfers meaning from a birth center to a hospital. I was a part of a woman’s journey when she would decide not to go to a hospital and just work with a midwife and do a home birth. I started noticing all of these nuances and I really wanted to get more involved and offer guidance. 

So I’ve done various trainings for myself and carved out what is now this path that I am on of offering support as a holistic birth guide. Holistic really means all-encompassing. Whatever journey you’re on, whatever part of your journey you’re on, I’m going to meet you there. There is no right way to do things and that’s really what I’ve learned over the last decade is that there is no right or wrong. It’s simply what is in alignment with you. That’s what matters at the end of the day. 

Meagan: I love that. I love that. It’s so important to touch on that because I feel like in today’s society, we put so much emphasis on right, wrong, failure, and success. 

Eyla: Right. 

Meagan: It’s so hard to feel that you failed. It’s so hard to even be labeled, even labeled on a medical record that you failed. 

Eyla: Yeah. 

Meagan: Or that you didn’t do this. I know that for me, when I was reviewing my previous Cesarean op reports, it triggered me and I knew. I knew. I was a doula at that point. I knew I didn’t fail, but seeing the word fail was so hard. So I love that you’re like, “I meet you wherever you are. You didn’t fail.” Yeah. I just love that. I love that so much. 

Eyla: Yeah, the litmus test for a successful birth if we want to look at it, if we want to use the word successful is how you feel postpartum. Even if a woman has had an “ideal birth” and there is a lot of sludge that she is working through postpartum, that’s indicative to me that there was something about the birth that was not resonant. 

Meagan: Right. 

Elya: You know? That, for me, is like I said, the litmus test. What is happening to you postpartum? Are you having triggers when you are looking at your report? Are you feeling like you are still ruminating about something that occurred or something that someone said? There is always something to process. Even for women who have had an epidural, everything went smoothly, and no bumps in the road, no obvious bumps in the road, she might be having a lot of anxiety postpartum and she’s not really sure why because everything went fine. Baby is alive and healthy. She is alive and healthy.

When you start to dig in, you realize that she maybe didn’t do things a certain way that she thought she wanted to. Maybe there was someone in the room who was not treating her well, but she just ignored it and betrayed herself, and told herself that it went fine. 

Meagan: Yes. Right there. 

Eyla: Our postpartum state is really indicative of how things shook out during the birth. At face value, it might not seem like anything was wrong, but when we start to dig, there might be things that we just need to unbraid. It’s not right or wrong, but there is an unbraiding process that is an opportunity.

Meagan: Yeah, for sure. I love that you pointed that out because sometimes I will have clients tell me their past birth experience and I’m like, “Oh, it sounds so amazing.” Your “ideal” birth and they are like, “Yeah, but this.” Right? And I’m like, “Okay.” It might not have even been something that happened, but it was something someone said. 

It’s so crazy how we look back like yeah. That totally did happen every what that you would want it to happen, but like you said, there may be something that didn’t happen the exact way they wanted or someone said something. We hold onto those things. 

I know for me, I held onto something. No, my second birth didn’t go the way I wanted it. It didn’t, but at the same time, I was getting some things in that birth that I did desire. But something that was said to me held on for a long time. Sometimes, it’s those little things and it’s hard to recognize them. How can we go, especially if we had this “birth”, but how can we go back and realize what it may be that is triggering us or bringing us into this space of confusion of why we are feeling this way?

Eyla: I think it’s first important to recognize that we really can’t do this in a vacuum. If a woman is trying to process her birth on her own, it’s difficult. It’s helpful to have someone that can reflect back on what you are saying, that can just reflect back to you what they are hearing. And also being witnessed by someone is really helpful to express. It helps us in expressing. We feel safe in expressing ourselves, so you want to find someone that you feel safe talking to whether it’s a good friend. Maybe they don’t know anything about birth or it’s someone who assists with birth processing. That’s something that I do. I do one on one sessions. 

Even if it’s a birth from 15 years ago, I have clients who birthed 15 years ago and they are like, “I’m just now realizing that things didn’t go down in a way that felt good for me.” So what that can look like is just walking through, “How did the labor begin?” talking about the labor and pregnancy, reflecting on the dynamic between the woman and her partner at the time, and then looking at, “When did we arrive at our birthplace? What happened? Who was there? What were the faces that you were experiencing? What were the things that were being said? What did you plan for? What went differently?”

After looking at the big picture, going back and saying, “Well, let’s look at what purpose and role each of those things played in our growth.” It’s an alchemy process that we go through. It’s like your wounds become your gifts. How do we look at everything that shook out and how do we spin that into gold? It’s not negating that things were painful or that things were deeply wounding on an emotional level. We want to acknowledge that, but we want to say, “How do we alchemize that?” Otherwise, you’re just circling the drain for years and years. I know women in their 60s who still talk about how horrible their birth was and how they would never do it again. 

It’s like, “Wow. Do you really want to feel that way for the rest of your life?” That’s why I tell people in preparation for birth, “Really educate yourself. It’s never going to look exactly how you want it to, but you can get pretty close based on how well you prepare and how flexible you become.” Right? Because making a birth plan is not all of it. It’s how flexible are you with change. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Eyla: So if you have those components, your birth is going to unfold the way that it should and you are going to be in deep acceptance. But if you just walk into it and say, “Well, I’m just going to show up at my birthplace. The midwife is going to take care of it because midwives are into natural things. They’ll just do all of the natural things and I don’t need to think about it,” so we kind of dig our heads in the sand. That’s often when things don’t go as planned and they don’t turn out how you want them to. 

I would say that getting into space with someone who can reflect back to you what you experienced and sometimes just speaking it out loud is all you need to do. It’s helpful if you know someone who understands physiological birth, so they can say, “Oh yeah. Sometimes when you get an epidural, it can slow down the baby’s heart rate and that’s probably why you heard a deceleration in the heart rate and that’s often what can lead to a C-section.” Then for the woman, it clicks for her as, “Oh. That’s what it was. There wasn’t something wrong with me or the baby.” 

Meagan: Yes. 

Eyla: It was the epidural and it’s okay. Now I know. And then that unlocks and she can move on. 

Meagan: Yeah. I think sometimes that can be hard because I’ve heard so many people say, “Epidural doesn’t cause C-sections.” I don’t want to say that is true. Epidurals don’t necessarily cause C-sections, but there are things that happen sometimes after an epidural takes place. 

Eyla: Yeah. There are symptoms of the epidural that can cause a C-section. It’s not that A + B = C, but sometimes A and B together can go to C. They can go to D. They can go into different things and you have to understand that it’s a possibility always, but it doesn’t necessarily mean it will cause the C-section, but it is possible. 

Meagan: It is possible. Yeah. Another thing that stood out to me just now is a lot of things, but another thing that you just said– we were talking about birth plans. So many of my clients and maybe you have seen this through your experience through birth, but so many of my clients want these birth plans. I’m not going to tell you that a birth plan is bad, but sometimes I feel like when we have a birth plan in place, we hold ourselves to these high expectations and we have to check this birth plan off. 

But when you were saying, “How flexible are you with change?” I was to encourage all of you listening whether you have had one, two, three, or however many Cesareans or maybe you are a first-time mom listening and you are wanting to learn how to avoid Cesarean and how things can pan out. If we can’t be flexible in childbirth, that can be really hard on us. It can impact us because childbirth doesn’t happen exactly the same way every time. 

Even my third kid was totally different. I love that you said, “How flexible are you with change?” Is there anything that you would suggest or any tips that you could give for learning how to be flexible? Because we want what we want. We desire what we desire. We have this vision and we want this vision to pan out exactly how we want it to. That is no shame. We are human beings, right? I go to Target. I see that shirt. I want that shirt. I’m going to do what I want to get that shirt. 

We go into birth and we have this birth plan and it’s this path. This is what we want. We are here to get what we want. Sometimes it doesn’t happen, so is there any way that you could give us any ideas of how to learn how to be flexible while also not getting all of your desires and shoving them to the side saying, “Oh, I have to be flexible because birth doesn’t pan out.” does that make sense?

Eyla: Totally. I think the latter like you said, “Oh, I just have to do whatever comes comes.” For me, there’s a level of self-betrayal there because you’re not asserting your needs which you should be. 

Meagan: Yes.

 

Eyla: I don’t necessarily think that polarization is helpful to go to that end of the spectrum, however, I want to say that when we want to look at how to become more flexible, there are two main components for me. One is having faith, which a lot of people don’t. It’s having a lot of trust and faith in this process. 

Meagan: It’s hard. 

Eyla: It’s really hard, but that is something that is deeply personal when it comes to having faith in every area of our lives that what is laid out is meant for us. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Eyla: Seeing what we call curses and blessings and gifts. That’s how we have to look at things. 

Meagan: It’s a change of mind. 

Eyla: It’s a perspective shift. 

Meagan: Uh-huh. That’s what I was going to say. It’s a whole perspective of, “Let’s look at it this way.” 

Elya: And it’s a level of spirituality that a lot of people are resistant to for whatever reason. You know? So there’s that if you’re asking me which you are. The other piece of that for flexibility is looking at where our desire to control comes from. That’s going to require a level of inquiry that a lot of people are uncomfortable with accessing because that does require us to look at our history. 

I’m not one to be stuck living in the past, however, it is helpful to look at certain experiences that we’ve had throughout childhood and growing up that cause us to really need control in order to feel safe. That comes from being in an unstable environment in childhood, right? Did you have a parent that required caretaking and did you have a parent who was emotionally volatile that required you as a child to be like, “Okay. I can’t control how my parents are responding to me. I can’t control the yelling. I can’t control the physical abuse. I can’t control the up and down, and schedule changes all of the time, but what I can control is this tiny little world in front of me. Maybe I organize my toys and my clothes a certain way. Maybe I eat certain foods because this is what I have control over.” 

That compounds and becomes a patterning in our adult life of, “Well, if I don’t control the time and the place, who my OB is, the nurse that’s going to be there, and the birth plan, and the this, my hair, my clothes–” we become hyper-controlling of everything because that’s how we feel safe because as a child—

Meagan: That was our safe space. 

Eyla: We could access safety. That’s just one example because, for me, holding onto that birth plan so rigidly is that there is a fear that if we lose control, we’re not going to be safe. 

Meagan: Yeah. Totally. Sometimes that’s really hard to process. I have to let go of this and I’m going to be safe and create this safe space. This is not necessarily for VBAC in general. This is just preparation. You do a lot. Obviously, I just read off 10,000 caps that you wear and there are caps that you wear that we don’t even know about, right? You have all of these caps, I swear, that you wear, but in addition to processing and stuff like that, preparing. 

Physiological birth– we talked about it. How can you prepare for that specifically? What tips would you give to really prepare for that and hone in on that? 

Eyla: So, yeah on the physiological level, what I invite people to do is return to what I would call indigenous ways of moving. How we’ve moved before, how we moved as human beings before modern society and modern design. What does that mean? It does not mean doing a specialized pregnancy yoga or pregnancy pilates program. 

Meagan: Dance. 

Eyla: It means, how did we move before we had these specific things? We were squatting often. We were bending down to garden. We were resting in a squat. We were sitting in tailor pose. We were weaving, sitting in tailor pose for two hours. 

Meagan: Hands and knees. 

Eyla: We were walking, hands and knees. We were climbing things. So if we integrate all of those natural movements which are very second nature for our body, that’s the best physiological preparation for birth. There is no $5,000 program that is going to make your body. It’s nothing like that. It’s daily movement and resting actively. 

I could sit in a chair. I could slump into the couch and rest or I could rest in a squat against a wall. I could check my emails and rest. I could scroll through my phone while I’m in a squat. Resting should be active and that’s going to open the pelvis. It’s going to add elasticity to the perineum. It’s going to make the woman’s legs stronger and ready for being in what is the marathon of labor. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Eyla: So that’s what I would say. We just don’t move enough as a society. You don’t need to be doing high-level cardio either. You don’t need to go to the gym. You need to walk at least an hour every day and rest actively. That’s what I would say. 

The other part of the preparation is a lot of the more psycho/spiritual work that I talk about. It’s owning where we feel fear and say, “Okay. Well, I want to feel safe. This is my birth plan. I need it to feel safe.” Well, if you feel the need for that safety, it’s because there is something about your birth environment or your birth team that doesn’t feel good. 

So let’s address that because you shouldn’t have to rely on a birth plan to feel safe. You shouldn’t have to rely on a birth plan. You should be able to communicate the things that you want and if you’re trusting that your birth team is hearing you, then you are not going to feel so attached to that plan like, “Follow it.” Right? You’re not going to be controlling. You’re going to be able to surrender. 

So we have to look also at who is supporting us and if is this the right environment for us.

Meagan: You know, that just resonated with me so much because, with my second, I wanted this VBAC. I didn’t have a doula and my husband wasn’t on board. I had this feeling at 36 weeks that I should change providers but then I didn’t because I didn’t want to hurt his feelings or I felt bad that I was leaving his care. 

Eyla: Oh, you were caretaking your doctor. 

Meagan: Yes. Yeah. I really did. I was like, “I don’t want to leave him. He’s been with me for two babies,” and all of these things. I went to the same place that I knew deep down, but I didn’t want to accept it that it triggered me even just walking into my prenatal visits. 

Eyla: You went back to the scene of the crime. 

Meagan: Yes. I went back there and I kept going back there. I would feel it when I was there and I would feel angst. I would get more annoyed as I was waiting longer in the waiting room and I never felt like that. I am actually very calm and chill, very lax, probably too lax of a person. 

So all of these things were signs and things happening and then obviously, I had a repeat Cesarean and I wasn’t necessarily supported during that birth. It happened and I have worked through it and processed it, but with my third, I had a provider who was super supportive. Super supportive and everyone was like, “Yeah, you are totally going to have this VBAC. Oh my gosh.” And something didn’t sit right. 

Something did not sit right. Every time I would go in, I was like, “I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know.” I ended up leaving his care, a supportive provider at 24 weeks and I changed care. Exactly like what you just explained. I knew I wanted a VBAC. I knew I wanted that. Other than that, there was nothing set in my way during my labor with my third that I was like, “I have to do this. I have to do this.” It was like I was just there and I was in full trust of my entire team in that space. 

I felt that that space held me and it held me tight. It held me warm and I felt all of the love and all of the support and all of the tingles along the way because truly, I mean, I don’t want to give myself a cookie, but I nailed it with my birth team. 

Eyla: Give yourself the cookie. 

Meagan: It took a long time for me to find it, but having that in that space, even when it was taking longer and there was a question of, “What do we do? We’ve been doing this for a really long time.” Even then, it was okay. It was okay. 

Eyla: That’s so beautiful. 

Meagan: And I loved that. I loved that space and I will cherish it forever. I will say that there were some things postpartum that happened that I was kind of not super loving. That’s more what I hold onto interestingly enough. I hold onto that and I still talk about this. I probably still haven’t processed this and I probably might be that 60-year-old in my sixties talking about–

Eyla: Yeah, we’ll process it one day. Just call me.

Meagan: Yeah, my postpartum. I think that processing is going to come to know more, just answering the questions that I have, right? It wasn’t bad. There were just some things that I was like, “What happened? What was that?” But yeah. I think what you were saying is getting that team, feeling that space where you might still have those desires of those birth preferences, but it’s not even something you’re focused on. You don’t even question it. 

Eyla: No, if there is any part of you that is like, “This doesn’t feel good.” If you are sitting in that waiting room and you’re like, “I don’t even like being in this waiting room.” It’s not just because waiting rooms suck. There are some waiting rooms I’ve sat in where I didn’t even notice I was waiting. I felt good. I felt safe. I felt at ease. I want to invite women to stop gaslighting themselves and trust their intuition. 

Meagan: That just gave me the chills, literally. 

Eyla: And just because all of your friends birthed with that doctor or that midwife and they have great Yelp reviews, it does not mean that it works for you. There is nothing wrong with you if you switch providers four times in your pregnancy until you find the right one. 

People spend more time shopping around for cars and test-driving cars than they do the person who is going to hold space for their birth. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Eyla: It’s kind of wild, right? So I really want to invite women to do that. Spend more time noticing how your body feels when you are in certain environments and with certain people who are going to be there for your birth. It might be the most amazing doula that everyone loves and you meet her and you’re like, “I am not vibing. Is there something wrong with me that I am not vibing with the best doula that everyone recommends?” No. You just don’t vibe and that’s fine. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Eyla: You might vibe with the doula who’s only done one birth and doesn’t have any reviews, but you just feel really safe with her. That’s where you need to walk toward. So yeah. The birth plan is helpful only because it’s an exercise in learning about what goes down at birth, but it’s not because it’s going to keep you safe from the unknowns, right? You need to feel safe with your team. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Eyla: The birth plan is not a contract. Just because you have one does not mean that everyone has to abide by the contract. It’s just an opportunity for you and your partner to be like, “Oh, what’s PKU? What’s an epidural? What’s Pitocin?” That’s where you can learn about this process. But I would just invite everyone to shop around with who’s going to be at your birth. 

Do not caretake like, “Oh, my mom really wants to be there.” It’s like, “That’s okay that she wants to be there, but if you have a really charged relationship with your mother and it would actually stress you out for her to be there because she’s an anxious woman, she’s not supposed to be there because the woman birthing is supposed to surrender and how can we surrender to birth when we are taking care of everyone’s feelings?

Meagan: Yes. I mean, I can relate to that so much. My mom, to this day, I don’t know if she will ever forgive me. Seriously, she holds this grudge against me that I didn’t love her unconditionally enough to invite her into that space, but right there just goes to show right? My mom, I love her. I love my mom. I do. She’s not the person I want in my birth space. I would have been that person. I would have been that person worrying about what she would have been thinking and her worries along the way and hosting my mom. 

So yeah. Sometimes those things are really, really hard. Those choices are really hard to make, but creating that birth space is going to be so powerful and like you said, you can change many times. You can change. You can change during your labor. If someone comes in and they are not resonating with you and you are not feeling it and you are feeling contention, excuse them from the birth space. Ask your husband or your partner or your doula, or someone else to play the bad guy and let them go. That is okay. 

When I went in to go get my op reports for my second, he looked at me, laughed, and he said, “Good luck. No one’s going to want you out there.” Right there. Why did I stay with a provider that treated me that way? Why didn’t I follow my heart? Why didn’t I follow that heart? I was feeling good about my provider with my third. I was, but something didn’t feel right. I couldn’t put a pointer on it, but it was. It was more like, “I think my provider is going to be restrictive in the end,” and he would have. He would have been restrictive in the end. 

Eyla: Wow, yeah. Isn’t it amazing? That’s what the classic narcissist says when you try to leave them. It’s like, “Good luck out there. No one else is going to want you.” It’s literally what a narcissist says to their– I don’t want to say victim because no one is a victim. No one is a victim. Everyone has a choice. Even in a narcissistic relationship, the one who is “being abused” is choosing to be there. They are the ones who are choosing not to leave. 

It’s interesting that we get into these dynamics with our medical providers. It’s not just OBs. It’s midwives as well. I want everyone to get very clear on the reality that just because you are working with a midwife does not mean that it’s not going to be a highly controlled, potentially conventional relationship and birth. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there are providers out there that are going to be right for you and not right for you. I do too. I encourage you to follow your heart. Like you said, check into it. If you’re in that waiting room and your heart is racing and you’re feeling anxious, I don’t know. You’ve got to tune into it. This is where I speak a lot about intuition and when Julie was with me, I swear, we preach intuition. It is hard sometimes to really dive in and figure that out, but it’s important. It’s really important. It’s going to tell you something. It’s going to tell you something. 

Same thing with processing birth. Tune into what’s hanging there. What is hanging there and what are you talking about? For some, that’s probably something. That’s probably something that’s triggering you. 

Eyla: Of course. Of course. Yeah. This is also something that I do. I lead doula training and mentorships. This is a lot of what we talk about in this mentorship is how to hold that space. It’s not necessarily– some of the women that do this training, it’s not even to become a birth doula, it’s just learning how to hold space for a woman and offer reflection when they are going through their process or if they want to process something postpartum. 

In this training, I also require that the trainees do their own amount of share of processing because we can’t really be holding space for a woman unless we are also in a self-actualization process. So yeah. It’s just learning to tune into the body and again, not gaslight yourself, right? 

Meagan: Yeah. I love that. Oh, so many things. You have so many amazing things. Tell everybody where– let’s see. We’ve talked about the course and your training. Tell everybody where they can find you and find more information about everything that you offer. 

Eyla: Yeah, so my website is obviously the best place to get in touch with me. It’s eylacuenca.com. There’s also uncoveringbirth.com and that’s where you could go through the master class even if you’re not pregnant, if you’re a practitioner of any kind, you’re a chiropractor, or a friend of yours is giving birth and you just want to understand the arc of birth. How were we birthing? How have we arrived here? I really feel that everyone should understand their own birth even if they don’t plan to have kids. 

Understand how you came in because the way that we are born and what we experienced in our mother’s womb when she was pregnant with us influences and creates the blueprint for our life. So a lot of unanswered questions that you might have about your health, about your mental/spiritual state, those are things that you can uncover in understanding birth more clearly. 

I also have an Instagram, so I do a lot of interaction there. I like to answer questions on Instagram. I do a lot of health advocacy on Instagram. I provide different types of forms for people who are going into hospital settings and want to make sure that they can keep their placenta, for example, and want to understand their rights to the placenta. So yeah. I offer a lot of those resources through Instagram and through my website. 

Meagan: I love it. Awesome and we’ll make sure to have all of your information in the show notes in case you don’t know how to spell Eyla Cuenca. Don’t worry. It’s right down there and it is not Ayla, it’s Eyla if you’re looking on Instagram as well. So thank you so much Eyla. It’s been a pleasure. You are amazing. I can just feel, I can feel the passion coming through this Zoom. I really can. I feel like I need to come be your friend.

Eyla: Please, please. 

Meagan: You are amazing and I’m so grateful for you and I know so many people will take so many nuggets out of this episode and they are going to apply it in their journey. 

Eyla: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Jackie’s first birth was a beautiful, well-informed, planned gentle Cesarean due to breech presentation. After putting everything in place for a VBAC, Jackie was ready for it all. 

However, after pushing for hours on end with limited support due to the newness of COVID, Jackie consented to another C-section. Surgery didn’t go as smoothly this time around, and Jackie did NOT want to be in that situation ever again. 

With her third, Jackie found incredible, VBA2C-supportive midwives who validated every birth desire she had. Since her first TOLAC was 48 hours, she knew a 2-hour drive to the hospital was no big deal. 

Until…labor came fast and furious. 

Did she make it to the hospital? 

Additional links

Bebo Mia’s Webinar 

Tara’s Website

The VBAC Link Facebook Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Welcome, welcome. This is Meagan Heaton with The VBAC Link and we have a cohost today. I am so excited to start welcoming in some cohosts. These are actually our VBAC doulas and birth workers. Welcome, Tara. Thank you so much for being with us. 

Tara: Thank you. It’s awesome to be here. 

Meagan: It’s super fun. It’s been something I’ve wanted to do for a long time and I thought it would be fun. It just adds some different vibes to the podcast. You guys are all over the world too so it’s fun to hear your stories and your tidbits and what you see. At the end, we are going to let her share some information as well. 

Review of the Week

Without further ado, we always have a review and just a reminder, if you guys have not left a review, we always love them and welcome them. You can leave them on Apple Podcasts. You can shoot us an email. You can go to Facebook and write one there. You can even Google The VBAC Link and leave us a review there. Wherever it may be, where you are comfortable, drop us a review. It may be read next on the podcast. 

Okay Tara, if you wouldn’t mind reading someone’s amazing review. 

Tara: Yeah, I got it. This is from Paige who reviewed The VBAC Course. 

Meagan: Oh yes. So not the podcast but the course. 

Tara: She says, “This course is as comprehensive and user-friendly as it gets. The workbook is so beautiful and the information is so easy to find. I used the data pages more than once when interviewing providers and discussing hospital policies in preparing for my VBAC after two Cesareans. I felt so empowered and confident in setting myself up for a positive birth experience with these tools in hand.”

So that’s from Paige. 

Meagan: I love it. Thank you, Paige. Seriously, we have done a lot on this VBAC course. It’s going to be continuing to update because birth updates all of the time. It is always updating. It is always changing, but for our VBAC students, I don’t know if anybody is out there and has taken our course, I want you to know that as information comes in and as the course updates, you’re always getting access to these updates. So excited, Paige. Thank you so much. 

Yeah, if you’re interested in learning more and upping your VBAC game, then we have courses for both parents and birth workers who are wanting to find more information about VBAC and how to support VBAC. Tara, she’s one of them. She’s one of our VBAC doulas. We love to spotlight them and we are going to have them on the podcasts. We love our birth workers. 

We talk about how VBAC is something that is all over the world. I personally, as Meagan Heaton, cannot change the VBAC world alone. It’s physically impossible, right? So between all of us birth workers out there and all of us parents out there learning about our options and advocating for ourselves and advocating for clients, it’s going to help change the VBAC world immensely. So definitely check out the course if you are interested at thevbaclink.com. 

Jackie’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Ms. Jackie. You are holding a brand-new baby. 

Tara: So cute. 

Meagan: Tara and I got to see this little squish when we started. Oh, I love it. It is perfect. You are fresh out of your VBAC after two C-sections. So excited. We know, we talked about it a little bit before we started. We know so many people are wanting stories about VBAC after multiple Cesareans and specifically two. So, Jackie, we would love to turn the time over to you to share this beautiful baby’s story. 

Jackie: So I guess where you always want to start is why you had your first C-section. 

Meagan: Yep. 

Jackie: With my first baby, we lived in a rural area. Walmart in Canada was closer than Walmart in the States for us. Very rural. The closest hospital was about an hour and fifteen minutes away from us. There were three hospitals I could choose from. One was an hour fifteen, one was an hour thirty, and one was an hour twenty or something like that.

So I did my research on all of the hospitals. I found the hospital with the lowest C-section rate because I was not going to have a C-section. I did all of my research, found myself awesome midwives who were going to work with me, and then I went in for a scan around 34 weeks to find out that my daughter was breech. Nobody in the rural community that we lived in or any of those hospitals would deliver a breech baby. 

I could travel three hours and deliver a breech baby vaginally, but I opted for the C-section. I figured it was the safest bet for where we were at. I cried a lot about that. My midwife was amazing. She comforted me because all I had heard was from my friends who had C-sections recently and how terrible their C-setions were. One of them got knocked out with general anesthesia and couldn’t see her baby for six hours. Another one told me at the hospital she went to, she didn’t get knocked out, but they told her she couldn’t go see her baby in recovery until after she could move her legs after the C-section. 

Meagan: Whoa. 

Jackie: Yeah. I was crying my eyes out because I was like, “I’m not going to be able to see my baby at all.” I’m telling the midwife this and she goes, “No. That will not happen to you at this hospital at all. Those other two hospitals, I don’t know what they are doing, but we will not allow that. Your baby will be checked over for four seconds right next to your head by the pediatrician and then she’ll be with you. I will be in the operating room with you even though I don’t need to be there.” 

I loved this midwife. She is an amazing woman. I absolutely loved her. I tried giving this third baby her name as a middle name and my husband was kind of against that. 

Meagan: Oh, that is so sweet of you. She must have impacted you a lot then. 

Jackie: She was amazing. I remember coming into the OR. They were getting me all prepped and laying me on the table. She comes in. She pulls down her mask and goes, “You can’t tell who I am underneath the mask right now, but I’m here with you. I will stay with you the whole time.” I absolutely loved her. 

Tara: That’s the best thing anyone can do is just be present like that. How many weeks were you, Jackie, when you had your C-section?

Jackie: I had a scheduled C-section at 39 weeks. They wanted to make it a little bit later than that, but I wanted my child to be born on the 22nd, so I chose the 22nd. I said if I had to have a C-section, I wanted my baby born on the 22nd. My birthday is the 22nd. My husband and I got married on the 22nd and then his birthday is 2/11 which multiplies to 22. 

Tara: That was special. 

Jackie: I was going to have my baby on the 22nd. They were like, “All right. Well, we would like it to be closer to 40 weeks.” I go, “It’s 39 weeks. It will be fine.” 

Tara: The silver lining of choosing the date is at least you can have a little bit of control over that, right?

Jackie: Yes. Having a planned C-section I guess, made it easy. We were able to drive down the night before the C-section. Again, we were driving an hour and a half for this and they wanted us there at 6:00 a.m. So we drove down the night before. It went so smoothly. Everything that I wanted, I researched everything I could for a gentle Cesarean. I had a gentle Cesarean and they had the leads for the monitors on my back. They put the IV where I wanted it. They helped me take off my gown and put the baby right onto my chest as soon as the pediatrician was done after two minutes with her. It was a perfectly done C-section. Everything I wanted went well. Baby didn’t leave my chest until my husband, I think, probably a couple of hours after I had her goes, “Do you think I could hold her now?” I was like, “I guess so.” 

They were great. They postponed any weights. They postponed wiping her down. She still had blood all over her. It was the perfect C-section if you had to have a C-section. 

With my second, it was the time of COVID. She was born in May of 2020, so a beautiful COVID baby. Her due date was the day after my first daughter’s due date, so they are exactly two years apart. We planned it out perfectly with the dates so I had the two years that my midwives told me I had to have to be able to have my VBAC. 

Because of COVID, they started doing only phone appointments and if I went in, I always made sure to schedule my favorite midwife because I absolutely loved her. She’d be measuring me. She’d be like, “You’re measuring a week ahead. You’re measuring a week and a half ahead, no big deal.” She didn’t have any concerns with that. 

At my 39-week appointment, I had it with the head midwife of the department and she got very concerned that I was going to be having a VBAC and my fundal height was measuring larger, like a week and a half, two weeks ahead at that point. She sent me for a growth scan that I had to have immediately. So I scheduled it. I think it was three days after that appointment. I scheduled it with the ultrasound people. I think I was 40 weeks exactly that day. 

I went in to the scan and I said, “Don’t tell me it’s breech,” because I had already been fearful that this would be a breech baby again. He said, “Nope, you are not breech, but you are measuring about 10 pounds for this baby.” I was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me.” I was freaking out because I knew they’d probably say that I couldn’t have my VBAC because I was having this big baby and as a tiny, rural hospital without anesthesia on staff, they can’t handle that sort of thing. 

He tried comforting me, telling me, “Don’t worry. These scans can be two pounds over or under. You’re probably having an 8-pound baby. Don’t worry about it.” I was like, “Okay.” When my midwife got the results, the next day I was 40+1 and she said, “Nope. Your baby is measuring 10 pounds. We can’t have you do that here. If you want, you can come in for a C-section today.” I said, “Well, I don’t want to have a C-section.” I already had talked to the larger hospital that I would have to go to if I were to go. At the rural hospital, they were going to allow me to go 10 days past my due date and if I was going to be pregnant for more than 10 days past my due date, I had to go to this larger hospital. 

Meagan: Oh man. 

Jackie: So I had already had my phone interview with the MFM at the larger hospital. We discussed if I needed to have an induction because I was past the date by more than 10 days and they were all on board with that. They understood that it was going to be a VBAC. They were fine with everything. 

Actually, the night before, I started having contractions that I told the person in the interview about. I said, “Well, last night, I had contractions. This morning, they’ve gone away, but hopefully, I have this baby and I don’t need to come to see you guys.”

Tara: Jackie, can I ask you, what was the birth weight of your first baby? 

Jackie: 7 pounds, 2 ounces. 

Tara: Okay, so that would be a big difference. 

Jackie: I did have gestational diabetes with the first one. 

Meagan: That’s still a small baby. 

Jackie: Yes, but I monitored my sugars religiously with her because if I did not have good sugar numbers, I would risk out of the midwives and have to be with the OBs, so I made sure that every little thing that went inside of me was the right amount of sugar and the right amount of everything, so I maintained my gestational diabetes with her amazingly. 

The second one, I did not get classified with gestational diabetes, but again, it was COVID and I was baking every single day with my two-year-old to keep her busy and eating every single new cookie we discovered and new bread and everything we were making because that’s what you have to do when you’re stuck in quarantine, I guess. 

Tara: Yeah, COVID brought on the baking for a lot of us. 

Jackie: Yeah, and most likely with gestational diabetes, it probably wasn’t the best idea. Even though I had tested negative for it, I should have maintained those sugars better, I guess. The midwife called back and told me, “It is a 10-pound baby. It’s not going to happen. You’re going to have to go to this other hospital or have a C-section with us.” 

They contacted the other hospital. The other hospital called me back and said, “Hey, you can come in for an induction tonight. When can you be here?” I said, “Well, we’ve got to pack up, and then we can drive down there.” This hospital is about 3 hours away from us. I said, “Oh, it’s going to take me 3 hours.” “Yeah, we will definitely have a bed for you in 3 hours. Come on down now.” 

So my husband and I drove down as I’m having contractions again all the way down there as he was hitting every single railroad track there was because that’s what you do in a rural community. There are lots of railroad tracks. 

We get down there and they were going to check me, but then there was somebody actually having a baby, so the OB that was there stepped out and went and delivered that baby then came back in. They checked me and I think I was at 5 centimeters or something like that. I told them that I didn’t sleep the night before because I was having little contractions and I was too excited to sleep. 

I asked for something just basically to let me get some rest. They gave me something in an IV. I can’t remember exactly what it was, but it was a lovely concoction of something and I went into their birth pool/tub thing and just floated around all night long with whatever they gave me. My husband kept telling me that I kept falling asleep and snoring in the pool while he was there. He kept having to be like, “All right, let’s make sure she doesn’t drown now.”

Tara: Yeah. I’m glad he was with you. 

Jackie: But I got some rest and that was nice. In the morning, they had me come out because they needed to do rounds or whatever and the new OB was going to check me. They checked me and I was at 8 centimeters. 

Tara: Wow. 

Jackie: I was basically told– also, they had been giving me Pitocin– I think it was at 2 is what they had told me– the whole night to get contractions going even though I already had contractions going. It was at 8:00 in the morning and they told me basically, “This baby is going to be a 10-pound baby. We are going to need to use forceps to get this baby out. You should probably think about getting an epidural now.”

I thought, “Well, I’m at an 8 already and they always say to wait until you get to 6 centimeters. 8 sounds good. I’ll get the epidural,” because the idea of giant forceps did not impress me very much. It sounded very painful, so I said, “Sure. We’ll take the epidural.” 

I got some sleep from the epidural too which was nice, but then they checked me a few hours later and I think I was at a 9. A few hours later, still at a 9. At one point, the doctor– it must have been close to 6:00– came in and said, “Hey. You’re still at a 9. We’re going to do a C-section.” 

My husband is not very good physically with labor and birth and all of that stuff, but he is amazing at advocating for me and he knew what I wanted. He knew I wanted this VBAC. He talked to the doctor and pulled him aside and said, “No. She wants this VBAC. You obviously want to go home. You go home. We will wait three or four hours and we will reassess the new doctor coming in.” He has listened to The VBAC Link with me. He has listened to other podcasts with me and he knows. 

Meagan: Oh, I love that. That’s amazing. 

Tara: That is amazing. 

Jackie: But he was like, “We’ll see who else comes in. We will reassess then. She really wants this, so you can leave. Nothing is wrong with the baby. Nothing is wrong with her.” They were like, “No. Nothing’s wrong.” So that doctor went home for the night. A new doctor came in. Three hours later when we gave him a timeline, he said, “Hey. You’re still at a 9. We’re going to do a C-section now.” 

My husband turned to me and said, “We took the time and we were still there.” In the meantime, between that three hours, I was looking up all of the different things that I could do. The flying cowgirl–

Meagan: I was going to say, was there anybody offering any suggestions or saying, “Okay. This is why we think you are at a 9,” or “Okay, the front of your cervix is thicker than the back.” Was there any of that communication or was it just like, “Oh, you’re still there?”

Jackie: I’m blaming COVID still because nobody was coming into the room at all. Nobody would come into the room because it was the beginning of COVID, nobody knows with COVID what was going on. I had no nurses coming in. A nurse would come in every once in a while to make sure the monitor was on my stomach correctly if it lost, but other than that, nope. Nobody was coming in. It was basically me on Google figuring out what I could do. I asked for a peanut ball. I had the peanut ball, going back and forth on the peanut ball. 

I moved the bed around at one point. I called her in. I said, “I can feel my legs. Can I just get up and walk?” She was like, “No. You can’t. You have an epidural.”

Tara: Jackie, do you know how high the baby was when you were at 9 for a while?

Jackie: Zero. 

Tara: Oh, so it was pretty well engaged. 

Jackie: Yeah. So again, I blame everything on COVID. That’s what I’m going to keep telling myself not that it was the hospital or anything. I’m just going to say that it was COVID. I told the MFM I had this time about that and he goes, “Yeah. I think they just didn’t wait. I blame COVID too.” I was like, “Thanks, dude.” 

Meagan: Yeah. You’re like, “Thanks for validating me.”

Jackie: Yes. Thank you for that one. So I ended up having a C-section with that one which, an unplanned C-section was not the best. The epidural I had was causing problems. At one point, it pulled out while I was in labor still. I didn’t realize and I thought I was just being a wimp and being like, “Oh, I could feel this through my epidural.” They’re like, “Oh, no. You pulled it out.” 

When I went into the OR, I told the guy, I was like, “I can feel my legs. I can feel everything. I could stand up right now if you want.” He was like, “No, you’re fine. I’ll just put more into this epidural. You’ll be fine.” I was like, “I can feel everything.” I was arguing with him that my epidural wasn’t working. He told me, “Fine. I’ll put you under general anesthesia then.” I said, “No.” I was like, “No. You will not. I am fine. My baby is fine. I don’t want to do this. Get me out of this OR. Get my husband. Get me out of here. I am not having a C-section if this is the way it’s going to be.”

I started yelling at him and he told me that I needed to calm down, that it was not a big deal, and just was the absolute opposite of the anesthesiologist that I had in my first birth who was doing everything she could do to make me feel great. This one was just arguing with me. So he told me if I keep up whatever I was doing and don’t calm down, then he was just going to put me under general anesthesia. So I just yelled at him I said, “Fine. Cut me open now then. I really don’t care. You’re not putting me under. Just cut me open. I don’t care if I can feel it.” 

So they tested it out and I couldn’t feel it as much as I thought I was going to be able to feel it, but I could still feel it much more than I did in my spinal for my first one. They did the C-section. My husband was there and I got pain between my shoulder blades from the epidural and I couldn’t lie down. 

He was telling me that he was going to have to strap me down because I was going to grab at my belly and I have to be strapped down for this. I was like, “My first C-section, I was not strapped down. They didn’t even argue with me that it was fine.” He goes, “No. C-sections you have to be strapped down for.” 

So then when I started complaining about my back hurting and I couldn’t lay down, he unstrapped my arms, that way he could turn me to my side and make it so my back wouldn’t hurt. They took the baby out and instead of the baby coming straight to me, they took the baby and wiped her all down. They measured her. They did all of that stuff. I had my husband go over onto that side, which, he is really squeamish so he was not happy about being on the other side of the curtain. 

Tara: I’m waiting for the drumroll of the birth weight. 

Jackie: She was 9 pounds, 15 ounces. 

Tara: Oh, so they were pretty close. 

Jackie: Yeah, yeah. They were an ounce off. She was a giant baby. She was in the 99th percentile in head, height, and weight, and she has maintained that 99th percentile in the two years of her life. She got down to the 95th percentile at her 2-year appointment, but yeah. She’s just a big kid. 

Meagan: Hey, though. We had Katrina, one of our doulas, talk about a VBAC client. It was 11 pounds, something. 

Jackie: Wow. 

Meagan: So 9 pounds is pretty small compared to that. 

Tara: It’s not all about the size. 

Meagan: It’s not all about the size, yeah. 

Jackie: Yep. 9 pounds, 15 ounces, and I still think that I would have been able to have the baby just fine. 

Tara: Yeah, you got most of the way there. I mean, you’re kind of one of those people that did both. 

Meagan: Yeah. You did both. Yeah. That’s hard. 

Jackie: At my six-week appointment with my midwives, I came in and talked to them. I said, “So, when can I have a VBAC after two Cesareans?” Six weeks later, I’m already asking them. I asked the OB while I was at the large hospital if they did VBAC after two Cesareans and they said, “Yep. You can come down for that if you have another kid.” When I was back at my little rural hospital, the OB there– there was a new OB and she said, “Oh yeah. I don’t see why you couldn’t have one. That would be fine. Just don’t have a big baby this time.” 

My midwife looked it up and she found online that they don’t have a policy against a VBAC after two Cesareans either, so she said, “Oh yeah. You can definitely do this.” 

Tara: Wow. 

Meagan: That’s so hard. That’s a lot of pressure. “Don’t have a big baby this time.” 

Jackie: Yep. Just don’t have a big baby this time. 

Meagan: Yeah, kind of hard to totally control. I mean, you can obviously do your best. 

Jackie: So when we got pregnant with our third, I went and met with them, and we discussed VBAC after two Cesareans. They told me two years ago that it was still in the plan. My midwife says, “Well, let me talk to the head OB person at this small hospital.” There are three midwives. I believe there are two or three OBs. 

She talked to the OB and the OB said, “No. You had a 10-pound baby last time. We will not allow you to have a VBAC after two Cesareans.” I said, “Okay. Well, when do I transfer over to the big hospital then? It’s a longer drive. I don’t really want to make that drive for my appointments. Can I do my appointments with you guys and then I’ll transfer over later?” They said, “That’s fine. Stay with us as long as you need to and then we’ll figure this out.” I said, “Okay.” 

In the meantime, they checked to see if I had gestational diabetes because after having gestational diabetes and then having a large baby, they assumed that I’m going to have it again. I failed the one-hour and then passed the three-hour. I passed the one-hour at 18 weeks at this one, and then I did it again at 28 weeks and I failed the one-hour, and then I had to do it again for the three-hour. 

According to the numbers in Vermont, I would have failed by one point and been diagnosed with gestational diabetes. I might add at the time, we also moved states. At 28 weeks, we moved from New Hampshire to New York. Again, a nice rural community in the middle of nowhere. So at 28 weeks, I had them do the test, but I also had them prescribe the stuff for gestational diabetes so that way I could monitor my sugars and make sure that I don’t have a giant baby. 

While we were in New Hampshire, I started researching and asking on The VBAC Link Community Facebook group, asking mom groups in the area where we are in New York where I could have a VBAC after two Cesareans. I did all of my research on the different cities that were close to us. I say close because both of them were about two hours away from us to find out where I could have this. 

Somebody recommended that I have a home birth. I was like, “Sure. I would love that idea because I wouldn’t have to go anywhere. It sounds like a great idea,” but in New York state, if you are having a VBAC after two Cesareans, you have to have it in a hospital. You can’t have it in a birth center. You can’t have it at home. That was kind of a bummer because I found a midwife local to us who does them in Pennsylvania because Pennsylvania would allow it, but New York doesn’t. 

I found a hospital with midwives in Rochester, New York and I talked to them. They had a Facebook Live Meet Your Midwife one day. I talked to them and I asked them some questions. I said, “Could I have a VBAC after two Cesareans?” They said, “Well, why do you need to specify that it’s after two Cesareans?” I said, “A lot of places won’t allow you to do it after two Cesareans.” They were like, “No. It’s just a VBAC.” They didn’t seem to have a problem with that. 

I said, “Well, what if I have a large baby because my last one was 10 pounds? Could I still have my VBAC?” They were like, “10 pounds really isn’t that big.” I was like, “Okay. I’m liking these answers.”

Tara: That’s incredible. 

Jackie: I’m liking these answers so far. 

Meagan: You’re like, “I’m not going to disagree with you.” 

Jackie: Yep, and then I asked, “What if I have gestational diabetes because I know some places when you have gestational diabetes, you risk out of being able to have the midwives. You end up with OBs.” They said, “Why would you have to have midwives if you have gestational diabetes?” Everything that I was told before, they were just like, that doesn’t make any sense. 

Tara: Wow. 

Meagan: They were pushing back on you. They were like, “Hey, listen.” 

Tara: They were like, “We don’t think that this is a problem.” 

Meagan: We have VBAC statistics for you. 

Jackie: Yeah, so after that Facebook Live event or something, after that, I was like, “All right. I think I have found where I want to go.” Then we went to see my mother-in-law and we get a text from our friend saying, “Hey, you guys were at our party this past weekend and somebody at the party just tested positive for COVID.” So we took our tests right there at our mother-in-law’s house and we tested positive for COVID.

Tara: Oh no. 

Jackie: So my first appointment got to be a virtual appointment because of COVID. We all tested positive. 

Meagan: Bummer. 

Jackie: It was a bummer having to quarantine and do all of that fun stuff. So a couple of weeks later, after I’m out of the COVID quarantine, I got to actually go up and meet my midwives. A large midwife place with a waiting room that actually people are in, it was a lot different than my tiny little hospital in the middle of nowhere in Vermont. 

I met with the midwives there. I explained to them that according to the numbers that my midwives pulled for the gestational diabetes screen that I have gestational diabetes. I read them the numbers that I had from my chart. They looked at me and said, “No. That’s not gestational diabetes. Our cutoff is 185, not 180 here in New York.” So now I don’t have gestational diabetes anymore and I told them that I would like to keep my monitor going, just to continue monitoring because I didn’t want to have a giant baby again. 

They were okay with that and they just took it off of my chart. I drove two hours every two weeks, then every one week to all of those appointments all the way up to Rochester to meet with these midwives. Anytime I went in with a concern, they basically told me, “Nope, that’s fine. You can have your VBAC.” I also hired a doula in the area too because it was recommended by my favorite midwife up in Vermont that if I’m going to be somewhere new with people I don’t know, I should have a doula who could help support me. I agreed with that, so we got ourselves a doula. 

Now we are talking about the lovely birth story. My doula kept contacting me and I kept telling her, “Nope, I’m going to go late. I’m not going to go to 40 weeks. It will be more than 40 weeks. I will have this baby inside of me forever. This pregnancy is so easy compared to my other two. I’m not in pain. I could be pregnant for 42 weeks and not even care, but I definitely can’t have my baby this week.” 

She’s like, “Why?” I said, “Well, my husband is a teacher. It’s the first day of school.” It was Labor Day weekend, so his first day of school was the day after Labor Day and my oldest is starting preschool at a new preschool. I don’t want to ruin this week for them. It’s their first week back to school and I can’t have my baby this week. Maybe next weekend I’ll have the baby. It’ll work out then.” 

My doula was like, “Okay, whatever you say. This baby can come whenever they want, but sure. You can go late. Whatever.” My kid and my husband have their first day of school. Everything goes great. That night, I put my kids to bed and I started having little contractions like I did with my second. I was like, “Well, it’s probably just going to keep me awake all night.” I had heard many a birth story on here that said to take some Benadryl, take some Tylenol and try to sleep through it. 

That’s what I did. I took some Benadryl. I took some Tylenol and I slept through it. I’d wake up every once in a while. Around midnight, I was like, “Maybe I should start timing these and figure out what’s going on.” They were coming 5-10 minutes apart or something like that. They weren’t consistent. I could sleep through a lot of it, so I just said, “All right. I’ll take some more Benadryl and Tylenol and just keep sleeping.” 

My two-year-old crawled into bed with me and while having contractions, trying to sleep with contractions and a two-year-old was not very fun. I snuck out of the room and slept on the couch. I was timing the contractions there. My two-year-old started crying, looking for me and asking where I was, so I went back upstairs and snuggled her in her bed. The contractions were still happening. I was like, “This is strange. Last time, basically when I woke up, they went away.”

But whatever. They weren’t very painful and I could sleep through them so I didn’t think anything was happening. My husband gets up for his second day of school. He’s in the shower and I said, “Hey, don’t get too excited to be at school. Don’t get too excited about this.” I go, “I’ve been having contractions. They’re probably going to fizzle out when the sun comes up. Don’t worry about it, but maybe have some plans together for the afternoon because I’ll probably call you and say ‘Hey, we need to go to the hospital.’”

He said, “Oh, you think you’re going to have the baby?” I said, “I don’t know, but just have some plans just in case.” I get my four-year-old dressed and send my husband and her to school. I bring my two-year-old out to our makeshift living area in the barn. I climbed the stairs to the barn. I’m making us breakfast and all of a sudden, my contractions went from, “Oh, this is nothing. I can sleep through it,” to “Maybe I should have not sent them to school. This is not feeling right.” 

I’m having contractions now a lot closer together. They are a lot more painful, and I’m trying to breathe through them, and my two-year-old is copying me and making fun of me. 

Tara: Does your doula know yet? 

Jackie: I sent her a text at this point. I said, “Hey, just letting you know.” She’s like, “All right.” I go, “It’s probably nothing.” Again, I don’t think anything is going to happen. I was in labor for 48 hours with the other one. Nothing is going to happen anytime soon. I didn’t want to worry her. 

I did send a text to my mother-in-law too because she lives about 45 minutes away. I said, “Hey, if you get dressed and ready for the day, do you think you could come on over to the house instead of going to work today? Would that be okay?” She was like, “Yeah. That would be fine. I’ll be over after my shower.” I said, “Okay.” 

They picked up a lot more. My doula texted me and she said, “Maybe you should hop in the shower until your husband gets back,” because I hadn’t been able to get a hold of him. His school had been in the news because they said, “No cell phones at all for kids,” so he was making sure that his cell phone was not even seen in the school building, so I can’t get a hold of him even though I told him to keep an eye out for me.

I’m trying to text him. My doula says to hop in the shower. I was like, “Yeah, you’re right. I’ll probably hop in the shower and this will all go away.” So I bring my two-year-old inside. On the way inside, we have our crew who is working on the house is all there and they volunteered the day before to take me to the hospital if I needed it, so I’m trying to not show them that I’m in labor at all. I’m hiding my facial expressions like, “This is no big deal. Construction crew, you’re fine to stay here.” 

I bring my two-year-old and set her in front of the TV and hop into the shower. I tried calling my husband’s school and I realized that I can’t get through the automated messaging system to find out how to get ahold of my husband at his new school before another contraction comes. So I texted my mother–in–law and I said, “You need to call him. I can’t do this and he’s not answering.” 

She asked what the telephone number is and I’m like, “I don’t know. Google it.” I could not even think through these contractions. All of a sudden—

Tara: It was getting serious. 

Meagan: Stop talking to me. 

Jackie: They were awful. I did not have contractions like this with my second and again, I dilated to 8 centimeters. I was just like, “I’ve got to get in the shower.” I get in the shower and I’m sitting there. I sat there until the water ran out of hot water and I plugged the tub before that because I was like, “Well, maybe sitting in a tub would be nice too.” So when the water ran out of hot water, I am now laying in the tub and I am screaming at the top of my lungs. I’m just thinking about the work crew who was on the other side of this wall in our kitchen working on making our kitchen and I’m just screaming at the top of my lungs. 

My two-year-old keeps walking in asking for something and I’m just yelling at her to get out. She’s like, “Mom, mom, mom, mom I hurt my nose,” and I’m like, “I don’t care. Get out of here,” just screaming. It was just so painful. All of a sudden, my husband walks in and he goes, “Uh-oh, what’s going on?” And I’m like, “I’m having a baby.” Obviously, you can hear me screaming. 

He was like, “Well, the entire crew was standing outside in a huddle like, ‘What should we do?’” I’m yelling orders at him now and I’m like, “You need to get the bag.” He’s like, “Okay. I’ve got the bag.” I was like, “You need to get my dress.” He comes down with– I don’t remember what dress he came down with. I was like, “No. There is a black dress in the closet. Go get me my black dress. I’m not going to be able to put clothes on. Go get that.” 

He goes up and gets me the dress. He comes in and he goes, “My mom’s here, so we don’t need to take the girls with us.” I was like, “Thank god,” because I was going to leave the girls with the workers. I wasn’t going to care right then. The workers can watch our children. I was done. 

Slowly, I get out. I tell him, “Yes. Put the dress on me,” because there was no way I was going to be able to dress myself. I tell him to grab my shoes because, for my first two children, I went home barefoot because I did not have my shoes. This one, I wanted to make sure I had my shoes so I had him grab my shoes. 

Tara: Good tip to put out there. 

Jackie: Yeah, I went home barefoot for a third time too, so I’ll explain that afterward. I get into his truck and I can’t sit down. I said, “Get a towel to put under me just in case my water breaks.” I’m just screaming and obscenities are coming out of my mouth. I feel terrible because my kids are looking at me like, “What the heck is going on?” They only know about Cesareans because that’s all I’ve had. Those are the pictures that I have shown them. 

So I was basically standing up in the front seat of his truck just standing there screaming, “Drive!” We live on dirt roads, so the entire time, I’m cursing the dirt roads because it’s all bumpy. 

Tara: And you had a two-hour drive to the hospital, is that right? 

Jackie: Yes. We had a two-hour drive to the hospital, but I am certain that I’m going to make it because my last labor was so long. There was no way that we were not going to make it. We were driving two hours. 

So we’re driving and our little town is having its bridge work done, so we have one red light now. And of course, we hit that one red light. 

Tara: Figures.

Jackie: I’m now cursing at the red light and my husband is like, “Really?” He’s just laughing inside himself because it’s like, this is what’s happening. Exactly. We have one red light and this is what we’re doing. We’re hitting the red light. I keep screaming obscenities at it. 

Tara: This is your moment to blow that red light, right? 

Jackie: Yeah. If you could see the other side of the bridge and didn’t know if people were coming across, or knew people were coming, I probably would have told him to do so. 

Tara: You probably don’t need a head-on collision at that point. 

Jackie: In our mommy group that I am in on Facebook or the due date group or whatever, the day before I think it was, there was some girl who was like, “I almost had a car birth,” and I was like, “Well, I’d take a car birth over a Cesarean any day.” And I’m thinking to myself, “Did I just wish this upon myself? Am I going to have this baby in this car?”

We’ve got two hours to drive. All of the little hospitals around us don’t do VBACs, not even VBACs after Cesareans. They don’t do VBACs at all, so any chance in my head that I’m going to get a VBAC is, “I have to drive two hours. I have to get to this hospital.” 

My husband’s driving. We make it about two exits down the highway and I’m telling him, “You need to call the midwife group.” The midwife group has two different locations and he’s calling the one on speakerphone that is the second location. I’m like, “No. That’s not the right one. You need to call this one.” 

So he calls that one. He tells him that we are on our way and they ask, “How often are her contractions coming?” I just yell, “Too close together! We’re coming. We’re not going to stop this.” I had him call my doula. He was talking to my doula and she says, “Is that her in the background?” He goes, “Yeah, that’s her.” 

She goes, “Stop the car right now. Call 911. Get an ambulance.” I’m like, “No. We don’t need an ambulance. Just keep driving. You’re going to slow us down. Just get there.” I’ll add that he was using Google to get there because he hadn’t been to any of my appointments and he’s never been to this city really at all. 

Meagan: Oh gosh. 

Jackie: So he’s following Google and the way Google takes you is back roads through Amish country because we live in an Amish country. I’m like, “No. Get back on the highway. I don’t care if it’s two minutes longer. You’re driving on the highway. I am not going through Amish country and getting stopped by a buggy or getting stopped by a train. Stay on the highway.” 

We’re two exits down and he’s like, “Okay, well the doula said to call an ambulance. I’m calling an ambulance.” I’m like, “Okay. Call the ambulance. You’re overreacting, but whatever,” as I’m screaming. 

Tara: You are a multi-tasking queen, Jackie. 

Meagan: Uh-huh. 

Jackie: Behind us, a trooper pulls up and my husband tells me, “Oh look, the ambulance is coming.” I’m like, “That’s not the ambulance. That’s a trooper. He’s not going to be able to help us with anything.” The trooper comes over–

Meagan: Escort you. 

Jackie: He goes, “The ambulance will be here in a second. They’re right behind me.” The ambulance pulls up and I’m still standing in the front of the truck. No seatbelt, nothing. I can’t even kneel down or sit down in this truck. I’m just standing and screaming. The guy from the ambulance comes in and says, “Okay, I’m going to need you to get on the stretcher.” I said, “I can’t move.” I’m yelling at him. 

He goes, “Childbirth isn’t that bad.” 

Meagan: Ohh. 

Jackie: I looked at him and I just screamed again more obscenities. I have my four-year-old and two-year-old watching TV in front of me, so I will not be screaming those obscenities. But I was like, “You’re a man. You have no say in this. You have no idea what this is like. You cannot tell me it is not that bad.” 

He was like, “I’ve delivered many babies. I’ve delivered five of my own from my wife.” I am just like, “Yeah. You did not have a baby.” I am yelling at him. He’s like, “Well, I need you to get on the stretcher.” 

Somehow, I managed to get on the stretcher, but I am on the stretcher on my hands and knees again, holding onto the top of it. He tells me, “No. You have to roll over. You have to lay on your back.” I told him, “There’s no way I’m going to roll over. There’s no way I’m going to lay on my back. I’m good like this.” 

After arguing with me for a few minutes that it’s not safe and that I can’t go like that, he finally decides to put this seatbelt or whatever the stretcher has around the back of my legs and wheels me into the ambulance. With him, he’s got another guy with him I believe and there’s this young girl. The young girl is obviously very new to being an EMT. At one point, I hear him thank her for coming because they needed a female to come I guess, but she had no idea about anything with birth or anything. 

Tara: Her eyes are wide. 

Jackie: Yep, yep. I’m yelling at her to squeeze my hips because I’m in so much pain. My husband was squeezing my hips in the truck for me for each contraction. After everything was said and done, my husband told me that if we have a fourth, which before, he told me absolutely not we were never having another kid after three. If we have a fourth, he needs to go to the gym and work on whatever muscles he needs to be able to squeeze hips because he has no muscle there. 

Tara: That’s right. It’s hard work, isn’t it, Meagan? 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Jackie: I yelled, “This is why I needed a doula. She knows what to do.” 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, and that’s another pro of a doula too is that they can switch off. 

Jackie: Yes. That’s what I was looking forward to. I was going to have this really long labor and they were going to switch off when his arms got tired, her arms would pop in and it would be wonderful. But I’m in the ambulance and I’m yelling at this poor, young girl that she needs to squeeze my hips. The guy is trying to tell her, “You’ve got to squeeze her hips. That’s what she wants.”

Then my body decides that it is going to start pushing on its own, but not push out a baby, but push out poop which–

Meagan: Mhmm, that comes first sometimes. 

Jackie: I read that all the things said, “Yeah, if it happens, people will just wipe it up and you’ll never even know.” I’m yelling at the girl like, “I apologize that this is happening.” She’s looking at the guy like, “What do I do?” He’s like, “Just don’t worry about it. Just don’t worry about it.” With every contraction now, I am now pooping and extremely embarrassed by this and screaming because I am in so much pain. 

The guy who has delivered so many babies and said childbirth isn’t that bad tells me that I need to relax so that he can put an IV in my hand. 

Meagan: Oh boy. 

Jackie: I tell him that if he wants me to relax, then he needs to give me some drugs. He tells me that he can’t give me any drugs because I’m having a baby and there are no drugs that are safe for a baby. 

Tara: Oh dear. 

Jackie: He goes, “Well, if I get this IV in you, at the hospital, they’ll be able to give you some drugs.” I said, “Okay.” So I managed to somehow stop squeezing my hand and let him have it. He got the IV in. We pull up to the hospital and they rolled me into the hospital. There were probably about, my husband said he counted 25 people in the room. One of the nurses I talked to later said he counted at least 30 people in the room. 

It’s an ER room because this hospital does not have a maternity ward at all, so they don’t deliver babies at all which was a surprise to me especially when I asked for drugs and they told me that they couldn’t give me anything. The EMT guy promised me that they would be able to give me drugs. 

Tara: So that’s a good point, Jackie, because if you call an ambulance, they have to take you to the nearest hospital, right? 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Jackie: Yes. 

Tara: Yeah. So he wasn’t able to take you to the one that you had intended to give birth at. 

Jackie: Right. But I still thought that they would take me to one where I would give birth at. 30 minutes north of this hospital, there was a hospital that I ended up being transferred to after I gave birth that does have a maternity ward. But yep, they brought me to the closest one possible. They had again, no maternity ward. Nobody has delivered babies. 

Tara: But the entire staff standing by. 

Jackie: Oh yeah. The entire staff, I’m pretty sure, of this hospital, standing in the room with me. My husband was like, “I had nothing to do during your labor. I walked in.” First of all, he followed Google again and did not end up at the right hospital and then was like, “Oh, wait a second. I know what hospital this is. I’m pretty sure we’ve passed it before.” He said that he walked in and he had my bag and my birth plan. He hands my birth plan to the nurse and the nurse goes, “We don’t have time for that.” 

He was like, “Okay. I remembered the one thing that I had to remember and they don’t even want it.” He goes, “I got in there. They put me behind you,” or at my head, because I’m still on my hands and knees on top of the stretcher right now. He goes, “There were so many people around, I had nothing to do.” He goes, “You had two people who were wiping your forehead for you. You had three people who were holding your hand for you. You had someone who was wiping your butt.” 

He goes, “Every single person had something to do and I was just standing there looking like an idiot. There were so many people in that room.” I was like, “Yeah, it was a lot different than our second labor where we were the only two people in the room.” 

So we’re in there with all of the people staring at me. There was a sweet woman up by my head who kept telling me wonderfully nice things and if I wasn’t in labor, I would probably hug her and tell her that she was a wonderful person, but I was in so much panic yelling at her to just shut her mouth and be quiet and all of these terrible things that I feel so bad about now. 

At one point, she advises whoever is on the other side of me, I don’t know, to maybe shut the blinds to the ER room because it’s all glass. So you walk into the ER and what you see was my behind as I’m trying to give birth on the stretcher with 25 people around me. I was very thankful she said they should probably shut all of these blinds so people weren’t watching. 

They have someone come in and they tell me that this is a pediatrician. She has delivered babies before, so it’s going to be okay. That’s my first hint that they don’t have anybody to deliver babies at this hospital, that there is a pediatrician here now and she has delivered babies. It’s okay. 

The pediatrician decides that she needs to check me and in the middle of a contraction, shoves her hand up and I’m just screaming. I’m like, “Get your hand out of me.” I started kicking her which, again, I feel terrible about. I apologized for it after the fact, but I definitely kicked her a couple of times telling her to get away from me. 

They kept telling me that I had to be on my back to be checked and I told them, “No,” that you can have babies on your knees. “I’m not laying on my back. I can’t do that. I can’t roll over.” I again involuntarily am pushing so much poop out of myself which, again, no one prepares you for that. Everyone tells you, “Oh no. Don’t worry about it. No one is even going to notice.” Everybody knew it was happening. My husband knew it was happening. There was poop in front of me on the stretcher. There was just poop everywhere and I was so embarrassed. I was like, “Nobody told you that this much would happen.” 

At some point, they told me that I am pushing out this baby. I think it was at 9:30 a.m. when my husband called the ambulance and we were at the hospital by probably 9:50, maybe 10:00. We were there and the pediatrician starts telling me, “You’ve just got to start pushing. Just keep pushing. Keep pushing.” I’m like, “There’s no way I’m having this baby.” I went 48 hours with the last one. I was barely having contractions an hour ago. There is no way this baby is coming out of me. 

She was like, “You’ve got to push. You’ve got to push. You’ve got to push.” I start pushing and then they finally convince me to roll over that I might be able to push better in that position, so I roll over to that position. I think it was three or four more pushes, and out popped a baby. 

   

At some point, I thought that she again was trying to find out where my cervix was and had her hand up inside of me and I am yelling at her to stop that. She’s like, “It’s not me. Your baby is coming out.” Again, I did not believe that there was a baby going to be born. I could not believe it at all. 

When she came out, I was again shocked like, “I just had a baby and it wasn’t a C-section.” This didn’t make any sense to me whatsoever. I’m just sitting there in complete shock. I couldn’t believe it. I felt like, “You have a —-” because we have surprises for each of our kids. They go, “What do you have?” I told them it was a surprise. They were like, “You have another girl.” My husband was like, “Oh, three girls. Just what I always wanted.” 

I had my VBAC after two Cesareans and again, like you said, you’re just on this birth high of, “I actually did this.” I had a second-degree tear and the pediatrician person is trying to stitch me up. Again, I’m on a stretcher. I’m also covered in poop because I was kneeling in it, so there are four nurses wiping me down and giving me a sponge bath to get all of the poop off of me. My husband and I are joking that the room smells terrible and why would 25 people want to stand around and watch this because it smells so bad in that room? 

So that was a lot of fun. We still joke about that now even though I tell him that he can’t talk about it with anybody else. They stitched me up. The pediatrician was complaining because they don’t have any beds with stirrups and they don’t have any beds with the broken down parts that you give birth in, so I was on an ER stretcher and she could barely get in there to do my stitches comfortably. 

While we’re doing this, some other lady walks in and says, “Hey, just to let you know, we don’t have a mother/baby wing, so you guys are going to be transferred. Do you mind going to this hospital” that was a half hour away and I was like, “Sure. I already had the baby. I guess it doesn’t matter which hospital I go to now.” 

They get another ambulance and they put me in an ambulance and they take me to this other hospital where I saw the OB that walked in, I think, as I was pushing from that hospital, they followed that OB down about a half hour away to come. I guess I must have been pushing there for at least a half hour because the OB walked in. He comes up and said, “Is your husband coming?” “Yep. My husband will be up.” 

He was at the hospital. He was like, “Oh, he was the one–” my husband has got a really big, orange beard. He’s like, “Oh, he’s the one with the big beard.” I was like, “Yeah.” He was telling the nurse, “This guy’s got a great beard.” He goes, “I thought he was a–” the way he was dressed too, he came from school, so he was in a shirt and a tie and khakis. He goes, “I thought he was the other OB that they called and he got there first and he was just watching.” 

He goes, “Yeah, when I got to the hospital, she was in active labor about to have this baby, one of the nurses turned to me. She goes, ‘So, are we going up to the OR now? Are we going to do the section now?’” He was like, “I turned to her. ‘She’s pushing out the baby. Why would we need to go into the OR for a C-section? Just let her have the baby. She knows what she is doing.’”

It just made me laugh that again, I had a VBAC after two Cesareans in a hospital that was absolutely not prepared to even deliver a baby. 

Tara: Wow. 

Jackie: I delivered the placenta. They had to look for a hemorrhage kit because they couldn’t find Pitocin to give me Pitocin. My husband was like, “Hold on. Are they dusting off that box over there? Have they never seen this before?” One of the nurses who we asked how many people had come in and had babies, she goes, “Well, I’ve been here for a year and nobody has had a baby here yet this year.”

Tara: Wow. 

Jackie: She goes, “That’s probably why everybody was in here. They wanted to see somebody have a baby.”

Tara: Yeah. You gave them a story that they will be telling for a long time. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Jackie: It definitely was crazy. I never thought that it could happen as fast as it did. I never thought that yeah. I never thought I would have a VBAC after two Cesareans for starters, and never thought I would have one in a hospital that doesn’t deliver babies. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah that doesn’t even do babies. 

Tara: You sent your husband to work and had the baby before lunchtime.

Jackie: Well, that’s what I said when I had the baby. It was 10:42 when I had the baby, so again, I was texting him at 8:00 that maybe he should come home. I think we were in the car around 9:00. 10:42 is when the baby was born. I said, “Hey, you have lunch duty soon. Do you want to go back for that?” He laughed. He goes, “I think I’ll take the rest of the day off.” 

Meagan: I think I’ll stay. 

Tara: His adrenaline was sky-high. 

Jackie: He went back to school the following day. His principal was like, “Uh, you had a baby yesterday. Why are you here?” He said, “Why shouldn’t I be here? She’s got nurses looking after her. She’s fine. My mother’s with the other two kids. We’re good. I can be at school.” 

Tara: That’s the parent of a third child right there. 

Jackie: Very much parents of a third child. 

Meagan: I love it though. I love it all. It’s so awesome. Such an adrenaline rush. I mean, one that so many people are never going to forget. Seriously, you did something

Jackie: I feel like I need to send them something though, like a card saying, “I’m sorry for all the obscenities. I’m sorry I was so rude to you.” 

Meagan: No, no. You know, we don’t take anything personally as birth workers. I mean, I know they weren’t birth workers, but they can’t take it personally, right? 

Tara: That’s right. Doulas always say that everything is forgiven in labor. We know that things happen. Drama happens. Words said. People get kicked. 

Meagan: Words get said. Things get done. I had a mom bite me one time, my hand.

Jackie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah, she just grabbed my hand and bit it. After, she was just like, “Oh, did I just bite you?” I was like, “Yep, but that’s what you needed to do, so you’re good. You’re good.” 

Oh, I love it. Well, congratulations. I know you’re still fresh off of this and I can just feel the energy. It’s so amazing. It’s so amazing. 

Tara: It’s incredible. How are you feeling about your healing so far? It’s been a short time. How’s it feeling in comparison? 

Jackie: I was a little shocked at the fact that there was more pain than I thought there was going to be having a second-degree tear and lots of lovely hemorrhoids, so sitting was not something fun. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Tara: Yeah. 

Jackie: So a little shocked by that, but compared to a C-section, it’s so much better. I was thinking about how our bedrooms are on the second floor. The barn rec room that we’re in is on the second floor, where we hang out right now doesn’t have a bathroom, so I have to go up and down stairs. How was I going to do that after having a C-section? 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Tara: Yeah. Still try not to do it too much after this birth. 

Meagan: Still take it easy. Still take it easy. Sometimes, we just want to get back into it. We just want to get back into it and we have to remember that we still just did a very big thing. We pushed a baby out of us and we still have to recover and give our body time. 

Tara: Yeah, and that’s a big mistake. I definitely made it too, but when you feel so much better than the other time, you think, “Oh, I’m good to go. I can climb stairs. I can make my family dinner. I can do things that I did before I had the baby,” and it catches up with you and your healing takes a lot longer. 

Meagan: Yeah, don’t rush it. Awesome. 

Tara: Give yourself some grace. 

Meagan: Yes, give yourself some grace. I always tell people that when you are feeling really good, that means that you need more time. 

Tara: That’s a good one. 

Meagan: Just keep giving yourself time. It’s okay to take it. I love it. What an amazing story though. One you will never forget. Thank you again, so much for sharing it with us. Seriously. 

Tara: It’s an exciting one. 

Jackie: Thank you. One of the things my husband said to me after I had the VBAC, he goes, “Hey, now you can be on that podcast you listen to all of the time.” 

Meagan: Oh! 

Jackie: He’s like, “You can call them up.” 

Meagan: Did you tell him when you got the email? 

Jackie: I haven’t yet because I was like, “What happens if something goes wrong and we don’t actually get to record and it gets canceled or whatever?” But I’ll tell him when he gets home. My four-year-old actually woke up throwing up this morning and I was like, “Oh, I’m not going to be able to do this because she’s going to be throwing up all day,” but she’s held it down for the whole hour. 

Tara: You’ve got a lot going on. 

Meagan: Yes, you do. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you for taking all of the time today to share this beautiful story, and congratulations once again. 

Jackie: Thank you so much for inviting me on. 

Tara: Congratulations, Jackie. Enjoy those baby cuddles. 

Meagan: I know, those little coos are so sweet. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

“We named her Frankie because she was frank breech.”

Guess what, Women of Strength? For the month of December, our gift to you is TWO weekly episodes! We are honored to kick off our Holiday Special episodes with our amazingly impressive friend, Olga. 

Olga shares her birth stories of an unplanned Cesarean, a frank breech VBAC, then ending full circle with an unmedicated VBAC. She has so much wisdom to share and we are here for all of it. She experienced so much personal growth and transformation with each birth.

Topics include:

• AROM checklist
• Hip Dysplasia
• Protecting your mental space before birth
• Freezing colostrum during pregnancy
• Sibling doulas

Happy Holidays, TVL Community!

Additional links

Bebo Mia’s Webinar

The VBAC Link Doula Training Course

Informed Pregnancy Podcast VBAC Breech Episode

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Turn your love of babies and bellies into cash. If you love babies and bellies and want to provide care and support to families, then Bebo Mia’s webinar is the right place for you. Get answers to those burning questions like how to be the voice you wish you had at your birth and how babies and families can be supported by doulas. 

Learn all about the different kinds of doulas. You can work in fertility, pregnancy, birth, postpartum, or just enjoy working with those squishy babies. Supporting families by becoming a birth worker, aka doula, is perhaps an option that hasn’t even crossed your mind. That’s why we want you to join this webinar. 

You can have great earning potential while doing something you love. Bebo Mia is the one-stop shop for education, community, and mentorship. Reserve your spot today at bebomia.com/freewebinar.

Hello, hello you guys. This is our very first-ever holiday edition. I decided that in the month of December, we are going to put out two episodes a week. I am so excited today to bring you the first one. This is a good friend of mine. Her name is Olga. You guys, she is amazing. She is a powerhouse mom. That is for sure. She graduated from Harvard. She’s been featured in Forbes magazine with 30 under 30, 40 under 40, Cranes New York. She has run an insanely successful business. 

She raises three kids. She is an amazing wife, an amazing person, so amazing. I’m so honored to have her here with us today. She has a story to share with you that we actually haven’t heard for a long time. It’s going to be a breech VBAC. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: I’m so excited to hear her story, but of course, we have a review of the week so before we do that, I’m going to review our course actually. This is from Erin Stanton. She says, “I absolutely love this doula training course. I feel far more prepared on the unique needs of the family planning of VBAC birth. Thank you so much for creating this resource for birth professionals and families.” 

Thank you, Erin. If you guys did not know, we have a course for both preparing parents that are wanting to know their options for birth after Cesarean and then we offer an education course for doulas and birth workers who want to learn more about the unique needs of a VBAC parent and a VBAC family. Unfortunately, we talk about this all of the time that we are just people going in to have babies just like everybody else, but because we have that previous Cesarean, unfortunately, we have this unique part where we are viewed a little bit differently in most of the medical world. 

So if you are wanting to dive in and learn more about your options for birth after Cesarean or how to support your birthing clients, definitely check out our website at thevbaclink.com.

Olga’s Story

Olga: I’m actually the person who took a class, too. 

Meagan: Yes, you did. 

Olga: I loved the course and actually, I did it with my husband which was really helpful for him to feel more comfortable about the birth. I definitely, highly recommend it. I know you didn’t ask my opinion, but I do highly recommend the course. 

Meagan: I love your opinion. It is so important. My husband, personally, didn’t want to do any of the birthing courses with me and wasn’t super interested in it. He just didn’t understand it way back when. Now, he’s like, “Oh, yeah. I totally get it.” But it’s so awesome to do with your significant other or your birthing partner because VBAC definitely has some things and some scare tactics, and just some interesting things that come along the way. 

If your partner can be as educated as you are, you’re not feeling left like you have to defend your reason why you do or don’t want to do something, so it’s so great for you guys to be in a collaborative space. You guys know, you’re educated equally, and then you can support each other because they need support too. 

Olga: Totally. Your course is awesome because it was self-paced, so we actually broke it down into 30 minutes. We did it whenever our toddler was sleeping. We did it on Saturdays together and I think it brought us together and got him comfortable with the idea of a VBAC because it has so many helpful statistics about how safe it is. 

I think as you said, there are so many scare tactics, but when you see data on paper in front of you, it just helps lose that fear, so I highly recommend it. I’m sorry to jump in. 

Meagan: No, I love it. I love it. Why don’t we just segue right into your amazing birth journeys? I feel like in ways, I have in each birth– and it’s probably with everyone really. We all each have unique birth stories, but I feel like all of your birth stories have even more unique spins. You have very different things and each one of them is even more amazing. So let’s turn the time over to you and share your stories. 

Olga: Thank you. I am just so privileged to be here because I listened to every single podcast episode when I was preparing for my VBAC. I feel like I know you so well, so it’s just such an honor. So thank you so much for having me. 

To jump right in and start the story where it really started, I had a miscarriage before my first birth. I just think that people who have gone through miscarriages– it’s just such a difficult situation and it’s such a difficult process. I do think that I was definitely depressed after and I think having a miscarriage before you have kids is so difficult too because you are questioning, “Can my body even have a baby?” and all sorts of things. 

When I got pregnant with my first baby girl who made me a mommy, who I wouldn’t change anything for the world, I really was scared. We did not take a single course because when I got pregnant with my miscarriage baby, I bought all of the books and I started planning in my mind. I think as I got pregnant, I was just scared to jinx it. I think I really didn’t even admit it to myself that I was pregnant or get attached to the baby– 

Meagan: Yeah, that is very common. 

Olga: –until I was probably 24 weeks. I remember reading, it was like, “Hit 24 weeks and the baby’s survival rate was 90%.” I really took a deep breath. I felt like at that point, I was like, “Oh my god. I am having a baby.” 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Olga: And so I think a lot of things I did differently with preparing for my VBAC were the complete opposite from my first birth. I trusted the provider right away. I sort of fell into this– I was living in New York City. I had lived in New York City for 15 years at the time. My OB had a practice on the floor above her that was delivering babies. 

She was like, “Okay, that’s where you go.” It turned out that the practice was pretty desirable. I didn’t know the questions to ask and I just sort of, as you said early on, trusted that we all deliver babies and I would know what to do when it all happened. 

Meagan: Right. 

Olga: We looked at having a doula and we thought it was this boho thing to do. We were two professionals in New York and we were like, “Whatever.” We knew the doctors. We were delivering at NYU, and so it was this sort of fear of losing the baby, not believing that we were pregnant, and then trusting the system, trusting that they have the best interests in mind and that everything will be done. 

And then the other thing I think is that there is so much pressure around you that it’s 40 weeks, everybody is like, “It’s 9 months.” I never even knew that people go past their due date ever. I am a fairly educated person, but I’ve never heard anything. To be fair, I did not take any courses or anything with my first because I was just so scared of the jinxing of having a baby. I literally was– here we are, about to go into the birth. 

At 40 weeks, I was just like, “Oh my god. The baby is not here.” My husband has two sisters and they all delivered pretty early. They were like, “Be prepared.” So at 32 weeks, I wrote a transition birth plan in my office. Everybody was ready and then here we are two months later and still no baby. The other thing is that my daughter is named after my grandma who is the closest person on earth to me. She is no longer with us. 

She was born on January 1st and my due date, I think, was January 4th and so I was sure I would be birthing on January 1st. I think I mentally prepared myself so when that didn’t happen and the due date came and there was no baby, I was like, “What is going on?” I gained quite a lot of weight because I felt like it was a free pass to eat whatever I wanted to. 

Meagan: Oh man, right here. That’s what happened to me too. 

Olga: That was you? Yeah. Also, I was in New York City. They were so scared of me falling on ice that they wouldn’t let me work out. I also had some sort of previous situations where I was sort of put on no working out starting in the second trimester and no sex. I mean, it was nothing scary. I had two little procedures. I had precancer cells early on. They cut those out, so they were worried that the cervix wouldn’t hold the baby. 

They were like, “Don’t work out. Don’t do this.” I’m not naturally working out because I’m not walking. It’s winter in New York City. I’m going and not doing anything, so I was gaining weight and eating whatever I wanted. I also did not know anything about baby positioning, so I was lying in the corner of my couch every night, basically encouraging my baby to be OP which we will talk about as I prepared for my second birth. 

I got sciatica or whatever it’s called. 

Meagan: Sciatica? Uh-huh. 

Olga: Sciatica, yeah. 

Meagan: Which is miserable.

Olga: Well, so it was on my due date. I was actually at a museum with my husband and my mom. We were so amateur that we flew my mom in at 39 weeks to help us and here we are, no baby and we were like, “What are we doing?” Both of us were working crazy hours. I was in the office the day before I delivered. 

There was no mental preparation. It was sort of like this was happening to me and I wasn’t in control of the process whatsoever. I was letting all of these things happen to me. The doctor was like, “Oh, you should go take a bath,” so I went in to go and take a bath. When I was in the bath, there was some sort of liquid that came out. 

As pregnant women know, there’s just stuff that happens to our bodies, so I didn’t think anything of it except, later on, I called them and I was like, The leg didn’t get better.” I couldn’t walk, basically, during the last few days of my pregnancy. I was like, “The leg didn’t get better, but my underwear just keeps getting wet.” She’s like, “Well, your water probably broke, so you have to come to the hospital within 12 hours.” 

The 12 hours was supposed to be 3:00 a.m. I was like, to my husband, “Let’s just leave more.” So at 6:00 a.m., we go to the hospital. They test my underwear and they were like, “Oh yeah, your water did break.” They admitted me to the hospital and there were no contractions, nothing. The woman, the doctor comes in. She checks my water levels through an ultrasound and she’s like, “Oh no. There’s so much water. Your water didn’t break. But now you’re here and you’re admitted, so you’re going to stay and we will induce you.” 

To be fair, they did give me an option of whether to be induced or not, but when you are uneducated, everything being positioned to you is very much like, “This is what you do next,” as opposed to, “Here are the risks. Here are the benefits.” Because I was in so much pain, I couldn’t really walk, and I was ready. I felt so ready. And also, mentally, my mother-in-law was there, and we were ready to send my mom back. I felt so much pressure on me to go and deliver this baby as opposed to waiting for this natural moment of her being ready. 

Also, they were so worried about infection because they did think the water was breaking first and then they kind of put this fear in me. Long story short, they started me on Pitocin. I think they did the Foley bulb. That fell out. At 4 centimeters, I get an epidural. Again, everything is positioned like, “This is what you do.” I was also very natural during pregnancy. I didn’t drink coffee. I just was so thoughtful about it. At that point, I’m like, “Give me all of the drugs.” 

I was so scared of this birth. 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. 

Olga: We’ll talk later about how my attitude shifted during this experience. There, I was like, “Give me all of the drugs.” They put an epidural in me. I’m rotating. They were like, “Oh, we’ll see you in the morning.” I did dilate from 6 to 10 centimeters in an hour. 

Meagan: Which is amazing. 

Olga: But I’m telling the nurse, I’m like, “I have to go poop,” or “I have to push.” She’s like, “No. That’s not possible.” So I did have to advocate for myself a little for them to check me. They checked me and they were like, “Oh my god. Yes, that’s true.” So they check me. I’m 10 centimeters and they were like, “Here we go. Time to push.” 

I pushed for three and a half hours. The baby was OP. They did break my water at 4 centimeters which is probably why I dilated so fast. Nobody checked the baby’s positioning. She was really, really, really high up, OP, and I know all of this thanks to the course that I did with you because, after the course, I did request my operating notes. Those are all of the things that I was able to learn in those operating notes. 

I remember making that call was so scary, but after three and a half hours, I was okay. My epidural didn’t work. It stopped working and I was feeling all of the pain. I will say that the Pitocin contractions are so brutal. There’s no break for a woman. Again, now that I’ve experienced natural labor, it’s just so different. 

Meagan: It’s very different, yeah. 

Olga: Very different.

Meagan: They are in a whole different ballpark with Pitocin versus natural Pitocin. 

Olga: Absolutely. Exactly. There were three times in my labor that I truly thought I was going to die actually. I had this out-of-body experience where I wanted to move. My body was screaming, “Move!” and they wouldn’t let me because I had an epidural and I was lying down. My body took over and I got on my knees and my fours. Sadly, that was already three hours into pushing, but I was still willing to push more. 

I was so committed and the doctor’s position was, “No.” I did ask her for 30 minutes more. The baby would come down as I was pushing and then she would come back up because she was stuck. There was no lubricant. They broke my water. Again, now knowing everything, I’m so glad for whoever is listening to this episode. Everything I’ve learned and educated myself with was through the course and listening to the podcasts. 

But here I am with a really traumatic birth in the sense that they rolled me in after three and a half hours of pushing and 24 hours of labor. I’m exhausted. I developed a fever by that point. They get the baby out and I’m shaking. I literally want to cry just flashing back to that experience. Yeah. Lying down there, arms trapped and shaking profusely. The baby comes out. 

Of course, you are happy to see the baby. Who isn’t? They touched cheek to cheek. They didn’t do skin-to-skin or anything like that. The anesthesiologist is like, “Do you want me to knock you down?” And I said, “Yes.” 

Meagan: Because you were shaking so badly? 

Olga: I was shaking so badly. I remember asking my husband to tell me why he loves me and how we met. He was just sitting there next to me telling me the story of how we met and why he fell in love with me because I just wanted to make it all worth it. I don’t know what was going on through that, but his telling me that story is what started to calm me down. But I wanted to get knocked down. I was shaking. I was cold. The experience is not what I later loved about delivering vaginally. 

I also felt like those things were done to me as opposed to my body birthing my child. I remember a few days after, I didn’t even see my baby. They took her to NICU because I had a fever. They put her on antibiotics. She also had jaundice. Everybody was texting us, “Oh, did you have the baby? What’s the baby’s name?” 

It honestly didn’t feel like I had the baby. You still have the tummy. You’re just lying there and in New York, I really hope nobody delivers in the kind of inhumane conditions. You’re next to other people who maybe have their baby. You’re sharing a room. 

Meagan: That’s crazy. 

Olga: It’s really crazy. I just felt like I didn’t know if I delivered the baby. I didn’t know any of those things. It was not a pleasant experience. My girlfriends were asking me after. They were like, “Oh, are you going to have more kids?” At that point, I was like, “No. I don't think I’m going to have more kids.” 

It felt like my body failed me which is unfortunate to say, but in reality, I failed my body in part too because I wasn’t prepared to advocate for myself. That was a really traumatic experience for Ryan, my husband, and really traumatic for me. Part of it was not being educated, not knowing a lot, and letting somebody else decide what is right for me. But I did have a beautiful baby girl.

Meagan: And her name is Lara? 

Olga: Her name is Lara. She is named after my grandma. She was born on January 7th and she made me a mommy and I will forever be grateful to her for that. When she was one, I got pregnant with my little Frankie. She was basically a COVID baby. 

I decided that I was going to step down. I had a really intense job. As I said, I worked right before I delivered my baby. I went back to work four days after. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh!

Olga: Yeah. It definitely took me– literally on the day of the C-section, I came home and I had a call. It was investors and things like that. A lot of it was self-imposed. I think it did take me a minute to figure out that I’m a parent and that things have changed. I’m a very driven person as many people are. Yeah. I just felt a little bit disconnected at the moment from my body and the birth realizing all of that stuff. 

I went back to work. I had the most amazing nanny who helped me and my mom was there, so I felt very supported, but my C-section recovery was brutal. I had to sleep sitting up. I couldn’t lie down. I don’t know now why that was. I was on all of these drugs. I just was in so much pain. Again, I don’t wish C-section on anybody. I do think it saves lives and I think there is a place for it, absolutely. I think it is the most amazing invention, but I don’t think it should be as widely used as it is today by just anybody when you get bored. I later learned that my doctor was about to change shifts and she just was ready for me to get this going. 

I love when you guys talk about failure to progress as failure to wait. I mean, obviously, mine wasn’t about failure to progress but it was about partially about failure to wait and also not letting my body move around and get this baby in the position that my body needed it to be in. 

Fast forward, here I was. I decided that I was going to take a year off. I worked really crazy with no vacations for many years and then I decided to take a year off and travel. Of course, you plan and then life happens. COVID happens. I get pregnant and I was going to travel with my one little girl, but I definitely wanted my kids to be close in age. 

We got pregnant and we found out it was a little girl. COVID pregnancy was definitely a challenge and I think you covered it. Husbands couldn’t go there. You don’t have support. You don’t have as much self-care. I think it’s different today, but we were really early in COVID. At the time, I lived in New York City and it was very, very scary to be there. 

We moved literally in four days. My girlfriend who lived in L.A. was like, “Stay in my house. We are going up to San Francisco because my parents need to help with childcare,” so we moved in four days. We told to movers just to send it to L.A. and that we were going to find an apartment. It was an incredible decision for us because, in COVID, I was able to be active. The weather was nice. My toddler could run around and explore. It was a really wonderful decision. 

I ended up working through COVID because the situation was so volatile that my board asked me to stay. I did end up stepping down a month before my baby was born. But even though I was working, my husband always laughs. I was a Type A student. I took VBAC as something I was really going to learn a lot about and feel really prepared. 

I took the class with you. I got a doula who also was a VBAC mama. I know you guys have a directory of VBAC-trained doulas and I think that is so, so important. My doula was incredible. I started preparing mentally and physically. I read a lot about Spinning Babies and really getting baby into the optimal position. I walked for 3 miles. I ran for as long as I could and then I walked for 3 miles at the end. There was a ritual that my husband and I did. We would put our toddler to bed and then we would walk around our house. It was our moment for each other, but also to bring us together and talk about the VBAC, and talk about us preparing. 

Those months preparing for the VBAC were what I should have done probably with my first, but you live and you learn. I’m so grateful that I’ve had all of these experiences. I stayed active. I learned a lot. I listened to the podcast. I took the course. Every time I would go to the chiropractor or my doctor, I would just listen to an episode. 

One piece of advice that I have, and I know we haven’t talked about giving advice to people, but I would save my favorite episodes so at the end, during my last month, I only stayed in positive spaces. I only listened to the episodes that I saved. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Olga: There was an episode that you guys had where a woman from Atlanta also had a breech birth because, at that time, I already knew that I was having breech. She had it out of Atlanta. She is a wife of a football guy maybe. 

Meagan: Uh-huh, yep. 

Olga: I don’t remember her name, but that episode, I probably listened to 10-20 times in that last month just to channel that positivity. With my third baby which I will talk about in a second, I also had a few episodes that were relevant to me and I just felt like relistening to them all of the time was a really helpful thing for me at least. That’s my advice is to save your favorites so that you can easily channel them and listen to them. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Olga: I saved for my husband the episodes I wanted him to hear. Very curated. I would be like, “Listen to this girl. She pushed for a long time too,” or whatever so that he was comfortable, but that he also knew what to do and how to get comfortable. 

By the end of August, my baby was born at the end of September, but by the end of August, I stepped down from my job. Again, I feel very privileged that I was able to do that. I know a lot of people have to work until the last moment. But even if you have to work until the last moment, I think carving out space for yourself and your baby and connecting with them is so, so valuable. Whether it’s when your toddler is napping or when your husband comes home, even if it’s that 3-mile walk around the neighborhood, I just think that we expect our bodies and ourselves to just go with this birth. No. It’s a big thing in our lives. Let’s give it the attention that it deserves. 

I really eliminated anything. That last month was just so spiritual for me and really, surrender is the word that I wrote above my bed. Anytime I would have things that you guys would say or I learned, I would write in big letters and put these flashcards next to my bed so that I would remind myself. I think I still have it. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Olga: And by the way, “Eat before you go to the hospital” was my big one. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Olga: A couple of things– I know some people consider home birth but for me, the hospital was a no-brainer. Actually, even though I had this traumatic birth, luckily, I was now in a different city, so the hospital was different. I didn’t have those negative associations with this hospital, but for me, hospitals actually make me feel safe because I feel like if I need help, there is care just seconds away which we will talk about how that played into my birth as it unfolded later on. 

We never even contemplated the idea of home birth. When I moved to L.A., as I said I was staying at my friend’s house and I asked her about who her OB was. The one thing that was really, really important to me was having the same person who sees me deliver the baby. That, I really knew was important to me because the first practice was a rotating practice and I felt lost because I would see different providers at different times. I felt like there was no consistency of advice or thoughts. It was just that everybody would give you different things. 

Even before I found the amazing provider who I ended up with, even before that, the few places that I called, I was always asking. I did decide not to go with a few practices because they were on a rotating schedule. The woman I found was absolutely lovely and I think was probably VBAC-friendly as opposed to VBAC-supportive. At least she wanted to position herself as VBAC-supportive, but I could tell that she was more on the VBAC-friendly side. 

She was delivering all of her patients and that was important to me. So when my baby consistently was showing up breech, I was 30 weeks and I was like, “Well, I know you keep saying that it’s still okay. The baby might turn, but if the baby continues to be breech, can I still have a VBAC?” At that point, she said, “No. It’s hospital policy.” Mind you, I delivered a breech VBAC at that same hospital. 

She said, “It’s hospital policy to do breech via C-section.” So I said, “Thank you.” Through your podcast, I already listened to women who had delivered breech vaginally. I started looking for a provider. I saw Dr. Berlin who I think you have had on the podcast for chiropractic care. 

Meagan: Yes, so amazing. So amazing. 

Olga: Yes. I love him so much. When I found him through my doula, I was like, “Dr. Berlin, she continues to be breech,” and she was like, “Oh, then you see Dr. Brock.” I was like, “What? I see Dr. Brock. Who is Dr. Brock?” Then I went and listened to his podcast. He has a podcast as well called Informed Pregnancy with Dr. Brock. As I was driving home, I listened to a breech VBAC birth with Dr. Brock, I just loved him. He was totally a straight shooter just like me. I was like, “This is going to be my doctor.” 

Making that phone call to him and be like, “Will you take me? I’m 34 weeks,” was really scary. He was like, “Absolutely.” It was so empowering. I saw him and he is just amazing. I switched my care at 34, maybe it was 35 weeks to Dr. Brock in L.A. He delivers at Cedars. Again, that other doctor was saying it was a hospital policy not to do breech. Guess what? Dr. Brock delivered at the same hospital a breech VBAC. 

When baby continued to be breech, I think at 36 weeks, he did an ultrasound to confirm the position. He honestly gave me the most informed decisions. He said, “You have three options. You can have a C-section if you want and here are the risks. You can have an ECV and try to turn the baby, and you can just not have an ECV and you can have a breech VBAC.” I guess there were four options. He was like, “You can have an ECV and still decide to have a C-section. You don’t have to do an ECV and you could have a C-section or you could have a vaginal birth.” 

I wanted to try to turn the baby. I had an ECV. Dr. Brock has a pretty high chance of turning during an ECV. I also did acupuncture and moxibustion. I did it all. I had Dr. Berlin who is known to turn babies do all of his magic. I did Spinning Babies. I did the ice over my belly. She is stubborn. She was stubborn in my belly. She is so stubborn still. She was really wedged down in my pelvis. She was really low really early in my pregnancy. She was really breech. 

Meagan: Not moving. 

Olga: Yeah, she was not going to change. She wanted her own story. I will say that women who have breech babies just have to remind themselves that breech is a variation of normal. That saying was a mantra for me that I kept. “Breech is a variation of normal. Breech is a variation of normal,” and just reminding myself that this is just a variation of normal and that it’s okay to have a breech baby. Of course, I was nervous.

Meagan: Right, yeah.

Olga: Breech babies can have their complications and Dr. Brock was terrific at explaining all of the risks. The bottom line is that the risks of breech are very different than the risks of VBAC. They are just different. It’s not like the breech VBAC is scarier or more difficult. It’s that they just each have their own fears. 

We decided to do breech VBAC. Dr. Brock is a super expert in that. We felt really supported. It did change a few things. I really wanted an unmedicated VBAC because my epidural failed with my first and I also never wanted Pitocin. I just wanted to move around. There is something I learned which is a walking epidural which I actually did not use, but my hospital at Cedars offers. For anybody listening, they should learn about a walking epidural. It sounds like a way better option than just the regular epidural but everybody has their own choice obviously. The walking epidural allows you to move around. 

Meagan: It’s a lighter dose. It’s technically a lighter dose. Like you were saying, you were fighting the urge to move with your first one and your body took over and you went hands and knees, with a walking epidural, it’s lighter. You’re able to feel a little bit more, but still not feel everything if that makes sense. 

Olga: Yeah. I was so scared about the positioning and everything as well. I wanted to move. I wanted an unmedicated VBAC, but as we learned that she was breech, my doctor’s rules were that you had to get an epidural for the delivery stage which I also didn’t know that pushing and delivery are two different stages.

For him, you can push without an epidural, but as it came time to deliver the baby, there was a chance in a breech that he had to move the baby and he needed the mother to stay completely still obviously because my understanding is that with breech, the biggest risk is that if the butt comes out and it’s so big that it blocks the cord and there is no air coming into the baby’s head. So he at that moment would have to maneuver and deliver the baby right away fully and he could not have the mother move around. That is obviously, the worst-case scenario. That’s why you want to have a provider who is very experienced. 

I knew that I would have an epidural. I get to the hospital. Long story short, here we are. I am mentally prepared. I have an amazing provider. I studied with you guys. I listened to all of the podcasts and it’s Friday. I’ll never forget it. My husband was like, “I’m going to go golf. Are you okay with that?” I’m 39+2 days. As a reminder, my first baby was late. 

Meagan: Yep. 

Olga: I was like, “Fine.” Oh actually, after the ECV, I do have to say that he did check me. I was at 37.5 weeks. I was 4 centimeters dilated already.

Meagan: Okay, so your body was doing some prep. 

Olga: Yeah, so I was already 4 centimeters dilated, but my doctor told me and I think I was 50%, maybe 80% effaced. He was saying to me, “Guess what? As a second baby, you can go for weeks like that.” 

Meagan: So true. 

Olga: That was a good reminder not to freak out, but I still put everybody on alert. The other thing I did the last month was that I really stopped talking to anybody negatively even close people in my life. I do recommend creating and being your own advocate. What do you need? I needed a positive space, a healthy and happy. I didn’t listen to any podcasts that I didn’t preapprove in my prep before. I was just in this happy, protective space. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Olga: I wasn’t reading the news. I really isolated myself to these happy things and hung out with my toddler. As I said, I stepped down from work and really had the space to prepare. I got my own gown for the hospital. I got my own socks for the hospital. I got an IV band that said, “I can do this,” to remind myself and really cover because I didn’t want to get an IV, but my hospital still required me to get one. 

Meagan: Especially with VBAC. 

Olga: Yeah, exactly. I wanted to cover that because again, I wanted to be in this special mental space. My husband was like, “Oh. I’m going to go golf.” I’m like, “No problem. It’s a Friday. Go golf.” I was kind of feeling yucky. 

Meagan: Signs. 

Olga: I was texting my girlfriend, but I didn’t take it as a sign at all because I didn’t feel great with my first baby at the end, so I figured it was just sort of that I was getting so late in the pregnancy. I remember texting my girlfriend. I’m like, “Do you remember feeling yucky at the end?” She was like, “I really don’t.” I was like, “I’m feeling so yucky today.” I had a work call. I took the call and I’m starting to have this leakage in my underwear. 

I texted my doula and she was like, “Well, just put a pad on it.” Sorry, TMI. But I’m like, “Okay.” I put a pad on it which I wouldn’t have even thought. I love and am such a big advocate for doulas. My doula, Elizabeth, from Luma Birth but used to be Grace and Gratitude is just so incredible. 

So I basically went in and put the pad in. It kept soaking but super slowly. From listening to your podcast and from all of the studies, you always say that if your water breaks, if you stay in your own environment with your own bacteria, there is really not a high risk of infection. Just don’t go outside. So I was like, “Okay. I’ll stay home,” even if the water broke. 

Literally, I am at home in the middle of this work call and it dawns on me, “Oh my god. What if it is different with breech?” So I freak out. I’m like, “Oh, I am so sorry. I have to call you back.” I hang up the phone and call my doctor. I’m like, “Dr. Brock. There is a small chance that my water broke. It is leaking. I didn’t have a gush or anything like that.” 

I’m like, “Oh my god. Do I come to see you? It’s still Friday.” He’s like, “Okay. Here’s the thing. If your water broke, I’ll see you in 12-24 hours because your contractions are going to start. If your water didn’t break, I’ll see you on Monday for our scheduled appointment.” You know, he is incredible. He is so professional. He has done millions of births. He has done breech VBAC and to hear the reassurance from him. He was so calm and collected. This just again is a reminder to everybody who is listening that if your water breaks, don’t worry. Until contractions start, nothing else matters. Your water breaking doesn’t mean your labor began at least in my opinion. 

Meagan: It doesn’t mean you’re going to have a baby at home necessarily either. You have to have contractions.

Olga: Right, no. 

Meagan: You have to push a baby out. It’s so hard. I always want to remind people that if your heart and your mind and your whole soul and your intuition is saying that you need to go somewhere else, then follow it. But if not, you’re typically pretty safe just hanging out and waiting for labor to begin. 

Olga: Totally and that was so helpful for me that he reassured me. And now, looking back, I do think that my daughter’s water broker partially from just the leaking, and I was rushed to the hospital when I did. I probably would have leaked over time. 

That was happening, so all day, I was feeling yucky. I wasn’t having any contractions, at least the ones that I could feel. Again, I have never felt natural contractions so I wouldn’t even know what it was feeling like. 

Meagan: Right. 

Olga: It was all happening. I did lose my mucus plug weeks before. So here I am. I ordered Domino’s. I just was sort of in this environment and my daughter who was at the time 20 months knew. She was holding my baby the whole day. 

Meagan: Clingy. 

Olga: Yeah, yeah. Looking back at the pictures from the day, it was one of the sweetest days of my life, to be honest. We just hung out at home, held each other, and watched shows, which, we almost never watch TV. It was a really special day. And then my husband came home. I was like, “You know what? I’m tired. I’m just going to go rest.” 

At 1:00 a.m., I woke up to go to the bathroom which as anybody in the third trimester knows, we go to the bathroom a lot at the end. I go in there and I’m on the potty. I sit there and I almost felt like she just kicked me. It was like, “Now I know.” It was such a strong contraction. I moved around in the bathroom and it felt great for me to sit in the bathroom always through the third trimester, so I did spend a lot of time on the toilet. 

I was sitting there. I repositioned myself. I got up to go back to bed. I didn’t think anything of it and then boom I get another one. When people say that when contractions start, you know you know, you absolutely know. 

Meagan: You know, yeah. 

Olga: On the second contraction, I woke up my husband and I was like, “This is the real deal.” To be fair, for a week before, I did have some Braxton Hicks which I didn’t really have with my first. I was calling my doula and I’m like, “I’m having contractions and we are walking around.” She was like, “Okay. How long are they lasting?” I’m like, “I don’t know. They fizzle out.” She’s like, “That’s not a real contraction then.” It is so helpful to have a doula because you can ask all of these questions that maybe feel silly but they’re not. 

Meagan: Well, and help you avoid going in if you don’t need to go in and having to call a doctor to get a question. It just helps, yeah. 

Olga: Totally, totally. So here, I woke up my husband. I’m like, “I know it’s real.” We called my doula. She was like, “Stay at home as long as you want and as long as you know.” I’m going to start getting ready. This is 1:00 a.m. On Friday morning, I recall my water breaking at 9:00 a.m. and leaking. This is 1:00 a.m. on Saturday morning. I woke him up. My doula was like, “Listen, let your husband sleep so that he can get some rest, and if you can sleep, sleep as well,” but I was like, “I’m not going to be able to sleep.”

I’m calling my girlfriend who is on call to take my baby. She is not picking up the phone which is quite a story but I’m like, “Okay. Let’s get going here.” He went to bed in the living room and about 20 minutes in, I woke him up. I’m like, “We have to go to the hospital.” But I guess it wasn’t 20 minutes later. It was probably about 4:00 a.m. I just knew at that time that it was starting to get real. 

Meagan: This is it. 

Olga: I do have to say that this birth, to me, was so spiritual. During my wedding, I honored my grandma. As I already mentioned, I honored my grandma during the naming of my first baby. But I was not really thinking about my grandma during this birth and during my prep. She was there. I just know. This birth was so spiritual. I was preparing by moving. I read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth. I love that book. I was practicing moving. I was practicing doing all of these things. I was singing like my grandma would. 

Out of nowhere, and I am not good. Let me preface, I am not a singer or anything like that. That was such a feeling from within. During my wedding, I made this reference to her, a bracelet. I found the bracelet and I held it in. I just have to say that my baby’s birth was so, so spiritual in so many ways. It was one of the most incredible things that had ever happened to me. I was in another world. I was truthfully in another world. 

I see sometimes people post on Facebook and ask how a body can survive without an epidural and all of these things. You are not in this world. You are bringing life into this world. This is incredible and our bodies can do this because it’s not Pitocin contractions. It’s really your body that creates them. 

I was singing through my contractions. I picked up my baby and she was holding me tight. I was having contractions and I was holding her. It just was such a magical moment bringing another baby. I was talking to her and I was telling her how we were working as a team. I had to drop off my daughter. Luckily, my girlfriend gave me the code to her house. Otherwise, they both had their phones off her husband and her. I’m literally walking into their bedroom. It’s 5:00 in the morning. I’m like, “Here’s my baby. Please.” 

Meagan: I’ve gotta go. I’ve gotta go, yeah. 

Olga: They were 5 minutes from the hospital. We get to the hospital. It’s 6:00 in the morning. They check me. I’m 6 centimeters dilated and 100% effaced. She checks me and they admit me. They then say, “Okay. You are admitted.” From triage, my doula joins me. I really didn’t love the nurse and my doula was like, “Don’t worry. They change shifts at 7.” At 6:45, I feel like I have to push. I’m so grateful that my doula was there because she advocated for me. 

Again, I was so educated. I thought that you could advocate for yourself. No, you cannot. You are in a different world. 

Meagan: It’s really hard. Really hard. 

Olga: So I’m like, “Elizabeth, I have to push.” I’m on my knees, singing through it. She’s like, “You have to check her.” They were like, “No. It’s not possible.” The lady comes in. She checks me. She’s like, “It’s not possible. Her water is intact.” Then, the physician assistant comes in who works with my doctor is like, “That’s not her water. That is her butt.” I guess it feels the same to them. 

Meagan: Squishy. 

Olga: The water did break. There was no water at that point. It was squishy, yeah. Crazy thing is, here we are. I’m ready to push. We need to put the epidural in. My doctor is away because he didn’t realize that would progress so fast. Everybody is waiting for him. Everybody is freaking out. I don’t know anything because I am in a different world, but my husband told me that everybody was freaking out. There were a hundred doctors in there, a breech VBAC. What is going on? 

Meagan: Have to see it. 

Olga: Yeah, and so until my doctor got there, my husband always talks about how once he got there, the atmosphere was like, okay. Everything is going to be okay. That’s the other thing. You can ask your doctor if he is going to be there for the whole pushing stage. My Dr. Brock was there for an hour and a half while I was pushing. He held my hand. He talked to me. It was just so incredible. I did have an epidural. I dilated to 10 without an epidural, then got an epidural and pushed for an hour and a half. 

I had the most beautiful, amazing beautiful baby girl. We named her Frankie because she was frank breech. We were so interested to know. Is Frank the name of the guy who invented frank breech? We weren’t sure. We later found out that frank just means stubborn breech. 

Meagan: Oh, I didn’t even know that. 

Olga: Frank breech is stubborn breech. She is so stubborn. She picked her own name. It was already sort of part of our list of names. That was the breech VBAC story. 

So then when my little stubborn baby– oh. The one thing I do want to mention here is with breech, if your baby is breech for a long time, even if they change to head down, make sure you have them check for hip dysplasia. I do think a lot of people don’t know. I didn’t know about this at all. It’s completely normal. My baby had hip dysplasia because she was breech basically the whole pregnancy. This is really important because I think that a lot of people think that if they had a C-section, their babies wouldn’t have hip dysplasia, but that’s not the case. It’s how the baby is inside of you. Their hips just don’t develop. 

My baby was then placed in a pelvic harness. That harness imitates what a head-down baby down inside of your body and the hip develops normally. Most times, it resolves on its own. You still have to follow up, but my recommendation is to just make sure that you have them check for it because I am in all of these Facebook groups with people who didn’t get checked and they, unfortunately, have a much more complicated time fixing it a little bit later. 

That was definitely an adjustment and journey on its own. When my little baby was 8 months, we surprisingly got pregnant with our little gift, baby boy. We always wanted three kids, so he just had his own surprise timing. We did try pretty hard with our first two girls. We didn’t use IVF or any of the other procedures, but it still took us a while to get pregnant. So it definitely was a surprise pregnancy with our third. 

He is such a miracle. I had a very difficult first trimester and now, thinking back about it, it could have been because he is a boy. I don’t know if there are gender stereotypes in pregnancy but I had a lot of bleeding. I really almost lost him a few times. One of the times there was so much blood. I still cannot believe that he survived. He is such a miraculous little baby. I just cannot be happier having him. He is my light. He is 9 months actually, so 9 months in and 9 months out. 

Meagan: Crazy. 

Olga: Yeah. I had an unmedicated birth with him. I think one of the reasons that he wanted to be born so fast is because I think he was scared that Dr. Brock would retire. He knew that I had to have that birth. 

So I got pregnant. Again, I was very, very active. I obviously had two little kids who still really needed me. I did walk 3 miles. This was much harder in the sense that there are two kids that need you who are so young, but my husband and I both worked as a team. We made sure that I had the space to– and again, you have to advocate for yourself. I talked to my husband. I said, “I need this time to walk because that’s how I feel like I am preparing for this birth.” 

We hired a doula again. One thing that I would say is that this time, my doula had to be gone at 41 weeks. She had a scheduled vacation. I found a backup doula with her help. They partnered together so that if I would go past 41 weeks which in my book is a little bit more complicated birth because the baby will be bigger naturally, so I wanted to make sure that I didn’t feel rushed. 

You have to be so thoughtful about ensuring what you need for a good birth. Set yourself up for success. I didn’t want to have any pressure. I had two amazing doulas this time. One of them was at my first birth and the same woman, Elizabeth, ended up being at this birth too. I was doing all of the same things– chiropractic care, acupuncture, listening to all of the podcasts again because this time it wasn’t a breech baby. He was head down and I wanted to have an unmedicated birth. 

The book that I read both times was Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth. This time, what really stuck out to me what, I don’t know if you remember the chapter where she was developing this mantra of, “I’m going to be big”. Essentially, what she was talking about is that you can channel your vagina to open up wider to let your baby out so that you don’t have any tears. I didn’t have tears with either of my births and I do say that my doctor told me that that’s kind of on him. I said to him, “Dr. Brock, what can I do to prepare to not have tears?” He said, “It’s all on me. We have to go nice and slow, nice and slow.” 

It was so helpful for me to just channel that mantra and I did use that during my birth with my son. I’m going to be big. It also did take my mind off the ring of fire and all of those things that people talk about that sound scary. I wasn’t thinking about that because I was chanting almost like, “I’m gonna be big. I’m gonna big.”

Long story short, at my 39-week appointment, leading up to it again, I was 4 centimeters dilated. I guess that’s how my body processes it. We were talking about doing a membrane sweep at 40 weeks. I was contemplating whether I wanted to do it or not. I really wanted a no-interventions birth. I decided that at 40 weeks, I would do it. I was going to my 39-week appointment and because I was already 4 centimeters dilated, I was a little bit nervous. We lived an hour and a half from the hospital because now we had moved further out. I was a little bit nervous to be driving and also, we don’t have family living nearby and my girlfriend couldn’t really take on two more kids who are so young, we got a sibling doula. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Olga: Our goal as a sibling doula was anytime I had my appointments, she would come and cover the kids at an extra cost so that she could get to know them. My sibling doula was amazing. She was with my kids. I said to my husband, “Do you mind driving me? You can take calls while I am in my appointments.” So he would drive me to the hospital, and just in case, we took our bags everywhere except, and that’s a tip that I actually wanted to write down to tell people, except my colostrum which I’ll address in a second. 

We took the bags with us. I had my acupuncture in the morning and then I had my chiropractor appointment so I’m super aligned. I go to my OB appointment. I’m 39+3. He’s like, “Well, you’re in labor. You’re 6 centimeters dilated. Go to the hospital right now.” He’s like, “I’m going to break your water.” To me, those were such trigger words. I didn’t because I felt like my baby got stuck the first time. I listened to an episode that you had earlier on at some point and you had a side note about never letting someone break your water until they check the baby’s positioning. 

Meagan: Yes. It’s a check mark that you have to check, where are we feeling? What is this position? Where are we at? If it happens spontaneously, it happens spontaneously which was done for you the second time, but the first time, it was maybe a fore bag. 

Olga: Exactly. 

Meagan: And then they broke your main bag, but it is. It is so important to cool it and wait. 

Olga: Totally and I think something you said, it’s like a lubricant for your body. You need that liquid to be able to have the baby get into the best position possible. So I was really not into the idea of breaking the water. I walked around. I called my doula. He just said, “Go to the hospital. Call them.” I did take about an hour to decide to go to the hospital. I didn’t even though this doctor who already delivered my baby, I still just wanted to check in with myself to see if I was comfortable. 

At the end of the day, here’s what I arrived at. It’s not the right decision for everybody, but for me, it was the right decision to go to the hospital because my other two babies, which was my biggest fear– I actually did a fear release as well two days before. There’s a technique that you guys shared on YouTube. There’s a YouTube video. My biggest fear was not taking care of my other girls because they were so young. I had a whole tree of neighbors that were going to come in until the sibling doula comes in and all of those things. 

Dr. Brock did say. He said, “Your baby is -1 and already 6 centimeters positioned.” He’s like, “I’m not going to make it to the hospital.” I was like, “What if I get a hotel room across the street?” He’s like, “You are not going to make it to the hospital. The baby is low.” So I decided that for me, for my well-being of being in the right mental space, this is the right time because my baby’s are taken care of. There is a sibling doula right there. 

We went to the hospital. He took his time to come in too which I loved. He gave my body natural time to progress. I requested a pump right away. I was walking. I was bouncing on the ball. I was pumping, trying to get the labor started naturally because there were no contractions still which was really frustrating to me because again, I wanted no interventions. 

So here we are. He comes in and I’m like, “Dr. Brock, give me the answers to two questions. Number one, what is baby’s positioning?” He checks it. It was LOA. It was the most perfect position. And number two, I said, “If you break my water, and my labor doesn’t start,” because remember with my second, when my water broke, it took almost 24 hours to labor. I was like, “I do not want to feel rushed. I also want to have the chance to leave the hospital if I want to go home and labor at home.” 

He said, “I guarantee you.” I already knew his word is right because he delivered my other baby. He’s like, “I can guarantee you that you can leave the hospital. I can guarantee you that there are no interventions that we will implement,” because I also did not want Pitocin at all. So I let him break my water and literally, things start within seconds. I think he broke my water and an hour and a half later, my baby was there. 

Right away, maybe 20 minutes later, I was like, “I have to poop,” and he was there. He’s like, “Do not let her go to the bathroom!” He checks me and I was already 8 at that time. It went pretty fast from 6 to 8 to 10 again. My doula was on the way. This time, my husband and I were such a team. I feel like the first time, we were both so scared. We just didn’t know and we didn’t feel as comfortable. This time, we were swaying together. I just feel so appreciative of the moments we shared just the two of us. 

My doctor comes in. He’s like, “Okay, it’s time to bring this baby to the world. Get on your back.” I’m like, “No, can I please have a few more contractions standing up?” He’s like, “Eventually, you’ll have to get in bed.” I was like, “Okay,” because I trust my doctor, but I was disappointed for sure. I probably would have loved to be standing, but once I got in bed and laid down, I actually did feel better. I did enjoy delivering in that position until the last second. 

I laid down and had about four pushes. I kept saying to myself, “I’m going to be huge.” I did want to make a joke to my doctor. I’m like, “Is this too late for an epidural?” but I didn’t say it because you’re kind of in a different world. You’re almost in your own little world. I delivered my baby boy without any medication and I have to say that the recovery, even with the epidural for pushing, the recovery with unmedicated birth is the most surreal thing on the planet. With breech, so many people ran in right away to check her because one thing that people might not know about breech is that when baby is coming down, there is always poop, the meconium from the baby. 

My doctor was telling the nurse, “This is normal. You don’t need to freak out.” I think that with head-down babies, they are worried about meconium being in the water. With breech babies, it is always in because they are pushing in the stomach as the butt comes out. Here, they left us alone for two hours. I was telling Dr. Brock. I’m like, “How big is the baby?” He’s like, “Well, you can’t have it all. We haven’t even weighed him. I don’t know how big he is.” He ended up being 8 pounds, 2 ounces. Which, they did. For two hours, nobody bothered us. We were just in this peaceful moment with my husband and me. 

It came full circle from all the interventions and everybody there and not having a moment to ourselves to just being there by ourselves the three of us and having this most incredible, peaceful experience. It was really something. I really wish for everybody to experience that. The recovery, again, I was ready to go hiking that afternoon. It was so different. I think I did push myself a little too much right away primarily because I have two little, young kids. It’s good to also let yourself recover, but it was also so, so, so special to have this. 

Sorry, one last thing that I will say is that breastfeeding was really important to me. I had some challenges in the past, so I had an amazing lactation consultant who I saw at 37 weeks. I also took some breastfeeding classes, but she told me about expressing colostrum starting early on. After 37 weeks, it is safe because baby is sort of technically full-term. I brought this colostrum that I froze starting at 37 weeks. 

The other thing is– the lactation consultant didn’t say this, but we know that nipple stimulation is a good thing. 

Meagan: It’s an inducer. 

Olga: It’s an inducer, exactly. So every day, and ti was amazing for my kids to see me do things with my breast without the baby there so they weren’t hating on the baby for taking my attention away. I would just sit there in the playroom with them while they would play and I would say to them, “This is how mommy will feed the baby.” I would express colostrum. I froze so much colostrum. Every day, I honestly wish I did more of it because as you deliver this baby, there’s no milk yet, you can take that day to recover and sleep if your partner is there. 

My baby had jaundice so we had to have him under lights. The nurses would take him, but I was able to give him colostrum. With jaundice, it’s very important that they eat a lot. I didn’t have to give him any formula because they had so much colostrum. I just highly, highly recommend it. My sister was able to go back. As I said, we didn’t take it with us. She and her boyfriend went back and brought it to the hospital frozen. 

Check with your hospital policies. Ours allowed. Cedars allowed you to bring it. It was so great because it allowed my body to rest for the first 24 hours, my baby to get a lot of colostrum, and I didn’t have the pressure of immediately breastfeeding or all of those things because I had it frozen. And I think the breast stimulation actually helped my body dilate to 6 centimeters by the time I was 39 weeks which I think was obviously awesome. 

Meagan: Yeah, I love it. 

Olga: That’s it. That’s my story. I have three amazing kids. They make me the person I am and I’m just so grateful to them for choosing me to be their mommy. 

Meagan: Being a mom really is amazing. I love all of your stories. You had a Cesarean, medicated breech, and unmedicated. Each one morphed you into this person and this parent that you are today. First of all, congratulations on all of your babies and thank you for sharing. 

Just along the way, I wanted to give a little bullet point of things to remind people of. I’m sure this podcast will be one of those saved episodes for the future. But some really cool things that you brought up is the sibling doula. I have been a doula for people and they have had sibling doulas and it is amazing. It’s absolutely amazing. It brings so much comfort because when you feel like you have to be mom, it’s really hard to be in labor world and to be doing that. 

I love that you had a sibling doula. I love that we talked about breaking waters. It’s something that I am passionate about and I think it’s because although they didn’t break my water, it broke spontaneously, but I had poorly positioned babies and a lack of knowledge of getting baby in a better position. 

So if you’re not checking the box of, “Hey, my contraction pattern is good. I’m close. I have good head compression. My baby is in a good spot,” it may not be the most ideal thing to do. And then sometimes you do. You break your water and it’s a game changer and that is the best thing for you. So I loved that you talked about that. I loved that you talked about not preparing and then preparing. 

And I loved so much that in the end of your pregnancy with your second that you went into this space called the bubble. We go into our bubble and we get rid of all of the negativity, all of the hate, all of the news, and stuff that’s going to stress us out and all of that. I personally had to do that unfortunately with my mom. That was really, really difficult and it’s really hard to do that to someone that you love, but unfortunately, she was bringing negativity into my space. 

Remember to protect your space. Those people love you. They’re not going to hate you. They’re not going to never talk to you again, but it’s okay to turn social media off, turn text messages off and go into that space because if you can enter that space in that really amazing, powerful zone, it can make all the world of a difference. 

You educated. You listened to the podcast. So many amazing things. So, thank you so much for sharing with us today and I’m so happy that this one is kicking off the holiday season for us. 

Olga: I’m so honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me and thank you so much for doing this and starting The VBAC Link. It just is such an incredible resource and I would definitely not have had the birth I had if it wasn’t for you guys. 

Meagan: Oh, well thank you so much.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Michelle’s first birth began with an induction via an artificial rupture of membranes at 42 weeks per the recommendation of her midwives. Looking back, Michelle realizes that many factors contributed to what may have been a preventable Cesarean. 

Right after the first trimester of her second pregnancy and at the height of COVID, Michelle’s husband deployed. Knowing he wouldn’t be home for her birth, Michelle did everything in her power to fight for the redemptive VBAC she deserved. We are in awe of Michelle’s strength, resilience, and all of her impressive victories along the way!

PLUS…as a certified professional midwife, educator, and a monitrice/labor/bereavement doula with a wealth of knowledge and experience, our guest cohost, Katrina, shares her top five tips on how to have your most empowering birth experience. 

Additional links

Real Food for Pregnancy by Lily Nichols

Katrina’s Website

Katrina's Instagram

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link Podcast. This is your host, Meagan and we have a cohost today. This actually is someone I know personally too. She is one of our VBAC doulas and she’s even a midwife now. This is Katrina. 

Katrina: Hello. 

Meagan: Thank you so much for being with us today. 

Katrina: Thanks for having me. 

Meagan: It’s so fun to have you. She used to live here in Utah and then she moved far away. Not really that far, but you feel so far now. 

Katrina: Yes, yes. I know, I miss everybody.

Meagan: But you are doing amazing things where you are at. You are in California, right?

Katrina: I am, yes, here on the central coast, so San Luis Obispo county. 

Meagan: Perfect. Do you want to tell everyone what you are up to these days? 

Katrina: Sure, yeah. A lot is going on for me. I am a licensed midwife– a certified professional midwife. I’m an educator. I do placenta encapsulation. I’m a labor and bereavement doula. I have a small and intimate practice here on the central coast in Templeton, California where I offer midwifery services, clinical sneak peek, gender draw, monitrice and doula services, encapsulation, and well-woman care. 

Meagan: Holy smokes. 

Katrina: A little bit of everything, but I love it all. 

Meagan: I don’t know if you have enough fingers and toes for all of the things you are dipped into, but that is incredible. Holy cow. 

Katrina: Thank you. 

Meagan: We’re going to make sure everybody if you’re in her area, we’re going to make sure to have all of her information so you can find her here in the show notes. So don’t hesitate to check those out and go find her. She’s incredible, you guys. 

Katrina: Thank you. 

Meagan: No, thank you. I’m going to turn the time over to you to read a review and then we are going to jump into the incredible story that we have today. 

Review of the Week

Katrina: Yes, so I have a review to read today that was sent in by Elizabeth Herrera. She says, “Wishing I had Apple Podcasts right now to leave a review. I hope this does the trick. Thank you so much for creating this whole community. After my emergency Cesarean in 2019, I looked up everything possible about being able to VBAC. This led me to your wonderful podcast and blog. I devoured everything. I owe much of my knowledge to you all and to my doula. I’m happy to say that I had my VBAC on March 31st and it was a magical experience. Thank you all so much for all of the materials you have provided which helped me succeed. I hope one day to share my story on your podcast. Many, many thanks.”

Meagan: Oh, I love that. We want to keep reminding you guys, we are always taking submissions for podcast recording and I am going to be recording– we are kind of backed up, so if you want to share your story on the podcast or if you want to share your story on social media which we are also doing, please email us or go to our website, thevbaclink.com/share and you can submit your story. Because we don’t have as many podcasts as we do posts on social media, feel free to post your information there and we are happy to post your story and share. 

Every single day, people are searching our Instagram looking for stories to read because they want to hear them. They want to read. They want all of them. I’m sure if you are preparing, you know what I’m talking about. You want it all. You want to digest it all. So if you want to read or share, head over to thevbaclink.com/share and submit your story.

 

Michelle’s Story 

Meagan: Okay. Michelle from Iowa. So excited for you to share your story. As I was reading through a little bit about your summary of everything, one of the things that stood out to me and connected was the feeling of not wanting to be recovering from a Cesarean with a second child, with a little one already around. Even though you have lots of support around, not wanting to have to recover and do that alone because your husband was deployed.

My husband wasn’t deployed, but he didn’t have a lot of time off and had to go right back to work so I was like, “Oh my gosh. I don’t if I’m going to recover.” I did have to recover with that because I did have a repeat Cesarean, but I was like, “Oh, I understand that want so badly to not have to have that second Cesarean to recover and raise two kiddos without that support, right?”

Michelle: Yes, yes. 

Meagan: I connected with that so much. But okay. And I also connected with your baby turning breech a couple of times. That’s so stressful. 

Michelle: Yes, I was so scared. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. With my VBAC, my little guy kept flipping. I’m like, “No. I am not going to have a repeat Cesarean because this guy cannot keep his head down.” Okay. We would love to turn the time over to you and share your story. 

Michelle: Yes. Jumping in with my first pregnancy, I thought it was a pretty healthy pregnancy. It seemed pretty normal and everything. I didn’t have any gestational diabetes. I did end up with quite a bit of fluid retention starting pretty early on, but my blood pressure is always really low, so my midwives weren’t really worried about it at all. 

I had hospital-based midwives for that birth. Looking back, my diet was not good at all. I remember I would read about if you have a craving, just have a little bit of it even if it’s something that’s not super healthy. So I’d have a tiny little bowl of ice cream, then I’m like, “Well, that’s not enough. I have to have a giant bowl of ice cream too.” 

Meagan: Uh-huh. That’s the thing is that sometimes those little tastes can be eating the whole gallon of ice cream.

Michelle: Yes, and then when I stopped working at 39 weeks, I didn’t feel like cooking myself lunch, so I would just have a microwaved s’more for lunch. Just in general, I was not very good, but I thought I felt okay for being pregnant. 

Like I said, I didn’t have any gestational diabetes, but I was measuring a little bit big around 33 weeks, so they ended up wanting to do a growth scan. That came back just fine. He was in the 50th percentile, around that area, except for his head. His head was in the 98th percentile. I do have big heads in my family, so I wasn’t too worried about that. 

My midwives, most of them, weren’t too worried about that, but there was one that kept bringing it up when I would see her. She’d be like, “Oh. Maybe he’s having a hard time–” we didn’t know it was a “he.” “Maybe the baby’s having a hard time engaging because he has a big head, whereas some of the others were more encouraging. It was like, “Maybe he had a growth spurt in his head and the rest of his body will catch up later.” 

But this one midwife just kept mentioning that. That same midwife, I also noticed, where some of the others would spend several minutes feeling around my belly to make sure they knew what position he was in, I had one check where she felt for his head, “Oh, his head’s down,” so she just listed him as OA and didn’t check anything else. 

Yeah. I didn’t think too much of it at the time. I got along with her personally and everything. We’re going along and I’m trying to do everything naturally, so I just kept waiting to go into labor and it didn’t happen. We get to 42 weeks and I’m not ready to wait anymore. I’m comfortable waiting anymore. My midwives are not comfortable waiting anymore, so I went in for an induction. 

Because I wanted to do everything naturally, what they suggested and what I agreed to was to have them break my water to have my body go into labor on its own. The midwife that was on that day was this midwife who kept doubting that I would be able to. She never said, “I don’t think you’ll be able to push out the baby with a big head,” but she kept mentioning his big head even when I went in for the induction. 

So I had them break my water. I think I was probably, I want to say 2-3 centimeters before they broke it and I think I must have been 4 centimeters because she must have stretched me to 4 centimeters because she said, “You’re now in active labor,” which didn’t make sense to me. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Michelle: I was having some contractions that morning, but I didn’t think that I was in active labor.

Meagan: Nothing substantial to be in active labor. 

Michelle: Yeah. But yeah, she must have thought, “Oh. You’re in 4 centimeters so you’re in active labor.” Anyway, so I was walking the halls and I was in the tub. Things were going okay. I eventually ended up with the epidural and everything and Pitocin. I kept dilating. Everything was going fine. 

But 12 hours later– and I had multiple, multiple cervical checks. I get to about 12 hours later. I’m basically fully dilated. I’m 9.5 centimeters and I’ve got an interior lip. She keeps telling me, “He hasn’t descended at all.” And then she did say, “He descended a little bit, but it’s just the molding of the head. He’s not actually descending.” His heart started getting a little bit elevated, so they started worrying about an infection. 

I was a little bit confused about it at the time, but I wasn’t able to think too much of it because my epidural had fallen out. So I’d had all of this build up into transition and everything plus Pitocin without being able to feel it, and now I’m feeling everything. 

So I wasn’t able to think too much of it, but they just took me back for a C-section. We agreed to it, but we didn’t ask any questions. My question that to this day I have not had answered is, “Why didn’t they have me at least try to push? I was basically dilated.” But in my head at the time, I was just like, “Well, she must just know that he is stuck, so he needs to come out.” 

Like I said, she didn’t really believe in me. I guess she just didn’t think he was going to come out. Plus, it was probably 10:30 at that point, so I don’t know what time shift ends, but I just felt like she didn’t really try. She wasn’t in the room that much. She didn’t really give me that many suggestions, just was there and gone. 

Meagan: Kind of left you feeling hanging. 

Michelle: Mhmm, and unsupported. Yes, yes. So they took me back for the C-section and everything went pretty well. I had a pretty good recovery, but even from the day after my C-section, I was planning for a VBAC.

So at my 6-week follow-up appointment, a different midwife from the same practice looked at my chart and she was like, “Yeah you can probably have a VBAC no problem with a smaller baby, just 7-8 pounds.” she looked at my chart and say I gained 55 pounds with my pregnancy and she was like, “Next pregnancy, just eat popcorn and salad and you’ll grow a smaller baby and be just fine.” 

Meagan: Oh! Oh. Well…

Michelle: Yeah. So I started looking around after that trying to find out what my other options were for the next baby. At about 7 months postpartum, I was able to find a home birth midwife who said she would be able to see me for a VBAC. She would do nutritional counseling because she was like, “Yeah, that swelling was probably because you didn’t have enough protein in your diet.” I’m like, “Yeah, that probably makes sense.” 

So she said that she would see me for a VBAC whenever that would happen. She would do nutritional counseling and be able to do a home birth at least out of the hospital because I did live kind of far away from a hospital. I wasn’t necessarily comfortable doing an actual home birth.

Also, about 1-2 months, somewhere in there, after our son was born, we did find out that my husband was going to be deployed. He’s with the National Guard, so we didn’t know when it was going to happen. We knew it was going to happen, but thankfully, we had quite a bit of warning. I know some people in the regular Army are living far away from family and deployments can happen at a moment’s notice. Thankfully, that was not the case for us. 

Since he’s National Guard, we were able to live where we live. We were able to live close to family. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Michelle: So I’m very thankful for that. And again, we knew that the deployment was going to be coming. We had lots of notice instead of not very much notice. But that did make it very difficult because we didn’t know exactly when it was going to be. We wanted to try to plan for another baby and that made it difficult to do because we didn’t know how to time it. Obviously, things don’t always work according to plan anyway. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Michelle: But we ended up getting pregnant when my son was 19 months old. Basically how it ended up working out was I was right at the end of my first trimester when my husband left. I was thankful he was there for at least the first trimester. That helped so much. 

Meagan: Absolutely. 

Michelle: And that was the beginning of COVID, so he was actually home quite a bit. He took a few extra weeks off of his job to quarantine and stuff, but also just to be home which was so nice. But when I got pregnant, I started looking around for out-of-hospital options because that’s what I really wanted this whole time. 

No one in my area wanted to see me for a VBAC because I hadn’t had any vaginal births before. I didn’t have a proven pelvis. Even the home birth midwife who had said she would see me for a VBAC wanted me to have a vaginal birth in the hospital before seeing me for a VBAC later. But she did agree to see me for nutritional counseling and to be my doula in the hospital with this particular midwife practice. 

Meagan: Great. 

Michelle: Yeah, that seemed agreeable to me. I had come to the point where I believed in my body’s ability to birth a big baby, but at the same time, I was ready to commit to a much healthier diet in order to be able to hopefully grow a smaller baby so that I wouldn’t have to fight with any providers about it to have them not try to use scare tactics or anything. 

I read the book Real Food for Pregnancy by Lily Nichols. Such a good book. 

Meagan: I love that book, yes. 

Michelle: I felt so much better through my whole pregnancy even in the first trimester just focusing on eating protein with every snack, trying to go for more complex carbs, keep my blood sugar helped so much with morning sickness and I just felt so much better. 

Meagan: Good, that’s awesome. 

Katrina: No, I was just going to say that nutrition– we don’t really often put too much time or thought into it but it can make such a difference in terms of how we feel, how we carry our babies, and even just our mental capacity and caseload when we’re well-nourished. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Michelle: Yes. 

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say that it’s crazy how just switching it up ever so slightly can truly impact, like you said, the way you felt and then even outcomes as well. And recovery. 

Katrina: Absolutely and kudos to that midwife who stepped up and helped you with that nutritional component because I do feel like oftentimes, that’s one of the pieces and elements that is left out of prenatal care.  

Michelle: Yes. 

Katrina: We talk about, “Are you exercising?” We weigh you. We say, “Oh, you’re gaining too much or not enough,” but that piece of, “Okay, well what are you eating? What are you taking in? Is it processed foods? What are you eating?” I think sometimes, is just really overlooked even though it can have such a monumental impact on you, your body, and your baby. 

Michelle: Yes. And like I said, after my first, they would be like– the only nutritional guidance I got was, “Oh, you can eat popcorn and salad.” That’s just not really helpful. 

Meagan: No. 

Katrina: No, it’s not. 

Meagan: Not necessarily the tips that you had been wanting with you. 

Michelle: Yeah, so then the midwife practice that I was seeing close to where I lived– like I said, another hospital-based midwife practice. Again, I felt like I could get along with the midwives personally, but just every now and again, some less-helpful pieces were sprinkled in. 

For instance, I mentioned that one of the reasons I really wanted a VBAC was because we wanted to have a big family and I didn’t want the size of my family determined by the way I give birth. So she was just like, “Yeah, I understand that, but you know, you might get to four kids and not really want anymore anyway.” I’m like, “Okay, but that’s still not how I want my family size to be determined.”

Katrina: Right. 

Michelle: I just felt like there was a lack of trust from the beginning. I just felt like I wasn’t able to make my own choices. They used a VBAC calculator to determine whether I was even eligible to be in their practice. They had a 41-week deadline where I had to have the baby or be induced. I was like, “I went to 42 weeks last time and I’m okay with doing that again. I’m all set to do that again.” But if I didn’t agree to be induced by 41 weeks, I would risk out of their care and I’d have to be seen by the OBs who are not as VBAC friendly. 

I also felt like I didn’t have any choices with the glucose test. I asked about alternatives and they didn’t allow any of that. I asked about if I was to agree to be induced, how would I be induced? Their preferred method of induction was the artificial rupture of membranes which I was absolutely deadset against. I feel like that’s the number one reason I ended up with a C-section with my son because I felt like–

Meagan: Mmm, too early? Because then with the decels and all of that? 

Michelle: Yeah, the infection risk as well as my feeling that since it was so early and he was kind of high beforehand, I just felt like it had him settle in a bad position and he couldn’t get out of it. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. Totally. 

Michelle: So I was deadset against artificial rupture of membranes, especially artificial rupture of membranes as the induction method. And then they would do Pitocin after that. But they wouldn’t do a Foley bulb or anything because apparently somehow, they said that it increases rupture risk. I was like, “That doesn’t sound right to me.” 

Even when I went in for my anatomy scan, because it was COVID like I said, and I had heard so many other people be like, “Yeah, I was able to do a video call with my husband because he wasn’t able to be in the room for the anatomy scan.” I thought I would be able to do the same. They were absolutely like, “No way. You can’t have any sort of video recording device.”

I had a total breakdown at that point. I was like, “This is one of the very, very few parts of my pregnancy that my husband can be a part of because he’s gone. He’s never going to be able to feel her kick because she was too small before he left and she is going to be born by the time he gets back. He can’t feel her kick inside me. There’s no other part that he can be a part of.” 

Finally, they at least let me have him on an audio call. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. I’m just over here shaking my head. 

Katrina: I know. Well, and how disempowering for them to pull everything away from you like that. Especially during COVID. 

Michelle: Yes. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. And unfortunately, we know you’re not the only one that had similar situations like this. I was so frustrated and I’m still frustrated just listening to you. Oh, I’m sorry. 

Michelle: So yeah. Again, just a lot of things where I just felt like I didn’t have choices and didn’t have a lot of trust. Finally, my breaking point was when I got to my glucose test. I felt great afterward. I was just like, “I’m so excited to get my results. I feel good that I passed. I want to get my results and get on with my life and not worry about it anymore.” 

I waited for the call with my results and I didn’t get one. It just kept not coming and finally, I don’t remember if it was a day later. It was far after I was supposed to get my results. I finally got a call and they were like, “Our lab lost your sample. We weren’t able to test it.” 

Katrina: Oh no. 

Michelle: I had to go back in and do a second one-hour glucose test and I felt horrible afterward. I had such a bad headache, heartburn, and stomachache. You name it. I got my results back and it was pretty high. I was like, “I don’t even trust that this is actually my result because they lost my sample last time.” That’s when I realized that I just didn’t trust this practice. 

I know it’s a good practice. I even heard a story on this podcast from someone who went to the same practice and had a great experience. It’s a good practice. It just, in my situation, I didn’t feel like I had the choices that I wanted. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, just when you hear, “Oh, this VBAC-supportive provider was super amazing,” that’s great for them, but it may not be the right supportive provider for you. 

Katrina: Right. 

Meagan: It’s the same thing with location and everything like that. Even though there are some people who have had amazing experiences, that doesn’t mean that it’s the right place or you are feeling the support that someone else may have felt. 

Michelle: Yeah. So at that point when I finally realized that I don’t trust this practice, I called the midwife who was going to be my doula and she was like, “Yeah, I’ve been kind of holding onto this, but if you feel like you don’t trust them, maybe you should just go to Iowa City.” I had been thinking that too, so I was like, “Yeah. I think it’s time.” 

So I switched to Iowa City, but because she is a home birth midwife as well, she wasn’t able to make the trip with me because she had her own clients for home birth. So I had to find a new doula. I switched practices around 29 weeks, so then I was 31, 32, 33 weeks looking for a doula and all of the doulas in my area were booked. 

I finally found one and even though I was traveling to Iowa City which is about a 2-hour drive for me, I wanted to choose one from my own area just in case something happened. I was due in December so if there was a snowstorm or if I was having a really fast labor and I couldn’t make it all the way, I still wanted to have my doula with me. 

I chose one from my own area. I was finally able to find one, and then now that I was traveling for two hours, I’m like, “There’s no way that I’m going to take a 3-hour glucose test because that’s now a 7-hour ordeal trying to drive two hours while starving and then three hours there, then two hours back while having a glucose hangover.” 

I just decided that I was going to test my glucose every day. I thought at first that they were going to let me do it just for a week, but then they said that since my one-hour test was already elevated, they wanted me to do it for the rest of my pregnancy. I’m like, “You know what? That is still worth it.” 

I started doing the 4-hour round trip every two weeks and then every week. It was a lot, but it was totally worth the peace of mind just knowing that if for whatever reason I do end up with a C-section, it’s going to be because I actually needed it and not because I was scared into it, because they didn’t have enough patience or anything like that. 

And plus, I was able to listen to The VBAC Link podcast on the way. That was my companion for the drive there. I started doing all of the things for prep– eating the dates, drinking the tea, doing the walks, and going to the chiropractor. Apparently, I created too much space for my baby because then at 37 weeks, I found out that my baby was breech. 

 That particular day, my midwife made it a little bit scarier like, “Oh, you can try the ECV. These are the things that you can do, but if your baby’s breech, then you’re going to have to have a C-section.” That was a stressful day and a long drive home. 

That same day, I found out that I had been exposed to COVID. I ended up testing positive for that. I didn’t end up having any symptoms beyond regular pregnancy symptoms. My nose was already stuffy every day. I was tired because I was 37-38 weeks pregnant trying to chase around a 2-year-old by myself, but everyone thought I was going to die. 

It was just like, “I’m fine. Just leave me alone.” But within the next couple of days, I was doing the Miles Circuit every night. One night I fell asleep doing it and when I woke up, everything was different. All of her movements were different. I was like, “All right. She’s head down again. We can keep going along.”

We were able to confirm at my next appointment that she was, in fact, head down. I finished my quarantine. I was able to start going back to the chiropractor. I got to 40 weeks and my little gymnast keeps doing flips and she was breech again. 

Meagan: Oh, so stressful. 

Katrina: Yes. 

Michelle: Yes, but a little bit less stressful this time just because my midwife was so much calmer about it. She was like, “If baby is still flipping around at this point, she can do it again.” That helped so much just having her calm presence with the whole thing. We went ahead and scheduled the ECV just in case. She was like, “Well, if we have the ECV and it’s successful, we will just go ahead and induce you because you are already 40 weeks, and that way she doesn’t have a chance to come out of your pelvis and flip again.”

I was able to flip her again with the Miles Circuit. At that point, I started belly binding because I think I had a pendulous belly probably, looking back. I just think that my uterus was a little tipped forward so she couldn’t settle in my pelvis and had all of that room to be free-floating and flipping around. 

So then we get to 40 weeks and 6 days. I started feeling some contractions. It was 12:30 in the afternoon. I was like, “This feels a little bit different.” I hadn’t had any Braxton Hicks contractions that would be a little bit uncomfortable. Mostly, it was just tightening like, “Hmm. This one actually is a little bit uncomfortable.” 

But it didn’t really feel like too much yet so I just went about my day. I was scared to lie down because I didn’t want it to stop. I didn’t want to rest. My mom came in that evening because I was supposed to have an appointment the next morning, but the contractions kept going. Toward the evening, I finally started contacting my doula, the hospital, and then my sister-in-law who was going to drive me to the hospital. 

I tried doing some resting. I took a bath and then I was able to put my son to bed as an only child for the last time. I was glad that I was able to do that. Just one last moment of normalcy. 

Yeah, so we made the 2-hour drive. We made it to the hospital at about midnight. I was about 4 centimeters. They were able to confirm on the ultrasound that she was head down still. I did make a point to wear my own gown for laboring because I didn’t want to get into that patient mentality. 

One thing I did not do that I wish I would have is I did not wear my belly binder, so I think she was still kind of floating around a little bit. I got to my room. They were able to have me on the wireless monitor so I could keep moving around. My belly was so round that they had a hard time keeping it on her. 

This whole time, I still didn’t really even feel like I was fully in labor. I was able to have a conversation and I definitely wouldn’t have gone yet if I didn’t have a 2-hour drive. My doula kept encouraging me to rest which I did not want to do. I wanted to be up and moving during the contractions. I felt like if I was on the bed and a contraction hit, then I couldn’t get up to move and it just made it so much worse. 

Probably at 5:30-6:00 in the morning, she fell off the monitor which I didn’t think too much of. The nurse came in to adjust it. She’s moving it all around and she finally finds the heartbeat way up high on my abdomen which is where they had always found her heartbeat when she was breech. 

Meagan: I was going to say, I bet your heart was thinking, “Breech!”

Michelle: Yeah, I was in total panic. I was like, yeah. I was panicking. I couldn’t stay calm during contractions. I couldn’t relax during contractions anymore. I was just in total panic. My doula and my nurse and everything kept trying to keep me calm. I was just like, “Just let me panic for a minute. This is scary. I don’t want to be calm right now.” 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s a valid feeling. It’s okay to get it out and process it versus having to hold it in and deal with it until later. Just let it be for a second. 

Michelle: Yeah. It was around 7:00 a.m. when they made it in. The ultrasound confirmed that she was still head down. My thought now was probably that she was descending into my pelvis and where they were able to find it changed. She was still head down, so we were good to go. 

At that point, I still couldn’t calm down. I was still in that panic mode. I wasn’t able to cope anymore. So I was like, “As long as she comes out vaginally, I don’t care. I wanted to go all-natural, but now I don’t care. Just give me the epidural. Get her out.” My doula was like, “Yeah, you can have the epidural if you want, but let’s try the shower first.” 

The shower was awesome. Instant relief. Immediately, I was like, “I can think clearly again. I can relax during contractions.” But then almost immediately after that, I started wanting to push. I told my doula, I was like, “I feel like I’m going to push her out really fast.” My doula was like, “Well, you still will need to probably pace yourself. The first time pushing, it’s probably going to be a while.”

I got out of the shower. She encouraged me to labor down on the toilet. That’s when I started actively, involuntarily pushing. My water broke almost right away and it was kind of funny because I immediately hopped off of the toilet. I thought I had accidentally pushed out my baby in the toilet, but it was just my water breaking.” 

Meagan: It’s crazy how sometimes, that water right? 

Michelle: Yeah. 

Meagan: We never know how it’s going to happen or what it’s going to feel like, 

Michelle: Yeah, and again, it hadn’t happened naturally for my first either. I wasn’t ready for it even though I had been in labor for 19 hours. I just wasn’t ready for it. But yeah. They got me off the toilet. They could see, obviously, that I was pushing so they were like, “We’d better go check and see if you’re complete.” 

They tried to get me back to the bed and someone told me that they wanted me on my back for a cervical check. I wanted to go on the bed and go on my hands and knees, but I was told that I had to get on my back. I made it on the bed. I made it on my side and I was like, “I’m not moving anymore. I’m done. I’m not moving anywhere.” 

So then I was complete. They were letting me push. I was like, “Well, that’s good because there is no way I’m going to be able to stop even if you tell me that I can’t.”

Katrina: Yeah, once your body takes over control, that’s it. 

Michelle: Yeah. I felt really good having my legs closed trying to push, but they had me keep opening my legs. In retrospect, I can’t help but wonder if they would have let me have my knees together and my feel apart if that would have felt better for me, but that’s not what happened. 

The funny thing is what I remember most is what I could hear throughout this whole thing. When they were trying to open my legs for me or getting things ready and I didn’t like it, I just remember saying, “No, no, no.” I just remember thinking even at that moment, I just feel like I sounded like my son. I feel like I sounded like my two-year-old, but that was all I could say at the time. 

And then I just remember the sound of myself grunting while I was pushing. I remember the sound of everyone in the room really loudly saying, “Yes, yes, yes! Push!” They weren’t coaching, but really loudly encouraging. Behind all of that, what I really remember and what really stands out to me is that I was able to have my husband on FaceTime and his voice being the calm voice, just the calm, steady encouragement. That was so helpful. 

Yeah, that’s what I remember most, and being on my side. What I did really like about it was being able to completely and totally relax my whole body in between contractions. If I had been on my hands and knees, I would still have to hold myself up. But being on my side was total rest during contractions which was really nice. 

Meagan: Really lovely, I’m sure. 

Michelle: Yeah. So then she was born at 8:14 a.m., so I had been in the hospital for 8 hours. She was born OP. I only pushed for 11 minutes. 

Meagan: Whew!

Katrina: Wow, that’s amazing. 

Michelle: Yeah. My first thought is, “Yeah, I probably could have–” She was a lot smaller than my son, but if he was in a good position and she was OP. If I could push her out in 11 minutes, I probably could have pushed him out if he had been in a good position. To everyone who doubted me, I’m pretty sure I could have done that. 

But I was able to announce the gender because we didn’t know beforehand, so I got to do that. I got to cut the cord which was great and very special. I did end up having a third degree tear and definitely some sacral bruising which makes sense because she came out really fast and she was OP. She was just over 2.5 pounds smaller than her brother. It kind of makes sense where she got all of that extra room to be flipping around. 

But even with some of the bigger injuries of the third-degree tear, I still felt like what most people describe as a second-degree tear, so I had a pretty easy recovery. It was still easier than a C-section even though I had an easy recovery from my C-section. I will say that I did also have a little bit of a lack of immediate connection just being completely unmedicated and not quite expecting her to come that fast. 

My first thought when they pulled her out and put her on me was, “Where did this baby come from? This is not my baby.” But of course, it was because no one else brought a baby in from another room. This is my baby that I just pushed out. 

Meagan: Just magically appeared right here. “I did do something before this.” That’s so cute. 

Michelle: But yeah, she was the first vaginal birth out of all the grandkids on both sides of the family. They’ve all been born by C-sections for various reasons. 

Meagan: Oh, really? 

Michelle: Yeah.

Meagan: Interesting. 

Michelle: My parents have six kids. The first two were born vaginally, but then they had some pretty adverse birth injuries, so they had her have C-sections for the last four of us, so on my side of the family, she is the first baby born vaginally in 40 years. 

Katrina: Whoa. 

Michelle: So that was pretty cool being able to break the traditions and set my own standards and goalposts. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Katrina: Yeah. 

Meagan: That’s fun, so what did everybody think when you were like, “Hey, I want to go for this VBAC” in your family?

Michelle: Well, my mom definitely understood but didn’t understand. I mean, for the most part, my family was pretty supportive. My husband was very supportive. His mom has eight kids. They were all natural. The last one was a home birth, so they are all on board with all-natural. So yeah. They were supportive for the most part. Like I said, my mom understood but didn’t understand. She didn’t understand not wanting to be induced.

Meagan: Didn’t fully understand. 

Michelle: Yeah, she didn’t understand me wanting to make my own decisions rather than just following whatever the provider says. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. Well, congratulations. 

Michelle: Thank you. 

Katrina: Yeah. 

Michelle: It’s been a little while now. She’ll be two in December and it’s great too because I never was able to decide where to start on writing down a birth story or anything, so it’s nice being able to fully get it out all in order and everything. 

Meagan: Mhmm, I love it. Awesome. Well, Ms. Katrina has a little bit of our end-of-topic. You know how at the end of episodes, we like to share an extra topic? I’m so excited to hear what she is going to bring to you. 

Katrina’s 5 Tips

Katrina: Yes, yeah. I have a few tips that I’d like to share and then I have a little bit of a piece of home birth after Cesarean that I wanted to share that I attended. The beliefs that you hold in the abilities of your mind and your body are hugely influential in preparing for your birth. The following are some tips that I’ve put together to support an empowering birth experience. 

The first is to cultivate your physical, mental, and spiritual strength, stamina, and endurance. 

The second is to love yourself. Be mindful of your nutrition and your hydration. Manage your stress. Make yourself a priority when it comes to self-care in both emotional and physical elements and prioritize your rest and sleep. 

Number three: build the best birth team you can and one that will support you in all components of your pregnancy, labor, birth, and postpartum periods including emotional, mental, and physical support. Don’t forget that this birth team works for you and you can replace team members at any point if they no longer align with your values and your goals. 

Number four: arm your toolbelt with knowledge. Practice physical positioning and utilization of your comfort tools. 

And lastly, number five: move, move, move. Your mind, body, and baby need movement and motion throughout your pregnancy, labor, birth, and beyond. 

In closing, I just wanted to share that I trust birth fully. I believe in personal autonomy, informed decision-making and consent, and birth options for all birthing people. I wanted to share– like I said earlier, I had the honor and privilege of attending a beautiful home birth after a Cesarean just over a year ago. This family was amazingly strong and determined. They birthed their baby in the comfort of their home at 42 weeks on the dot and had a beautiful baby boy who was 11 pounds and 15 ounces. 

Meagan: Whew! I love it. That just gave me chills because it’s like, yes. This is possible. This is possible. 

Katrina: It is. It’s possible. Women and birthing people are amazing and incredible. I truly believe following your intuition and seeking the support that you feel that you need and desire is just monumental in terms of the entire birth experience. 

Meagan: It goes back to even proven pelvis and all of that, right? Why, why, why do we have to prove ourselves? Why do we have to do that? Because I feel like, when someone says, “I can’t do this because you have to prove to me,” and then if we don’t “prove” in the way that they see it, then we feel like we failed. This failure word, this word fail comes up way too often and I don’t like it. I don’t like it. 

Katrina: Right, and ultimately, everyone should have the opportunity to have a trial of labor. There’s no reason to not let people do that. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I agree. Absolutely. I love it. Thank you both for being with me today. So happy that you were both with me. 

Katrina: Thank you and congratulations, Michelle. I love your story. 

Michelle: Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me on. It’s an honor to be able to finally share my story. It’s great to be on after listening throughout my pregnancy and everything. 

Meagan: Yes, yes. I love it. Well, thank you both for your time, and again, congratulations, Michelle. Katrina, I’m blown away by all of the amazing things that you are doing. You always have been amazing, but it’s like you just keep adding to this amazing resume. I’m so happy for you. 

Katrina: Thank you. Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

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You will NOT want to miss today’s episode!

With her first pregnancy, Taylor was committed to having an unmedicated, vaginal birth. But after a 5-day induction at 37 weeks due to cholestasis and no cervical change or dilation, she knew it was time to consent to a C-section. 

Taylor knew she would fight for her VBAC even before she became pregnant again. 

18 hours after her water broke, Taylor was barely 1 centimeter dilated. Labor continued for hours with transition-like symptoms. She knew she was close. Taylor agreed to a cervical check. She was 2 centimeters dilated. 

Find out how Taylor’s resilience helped her overcome that HUGE discouragement we feel when labor isn’t progressing the way we think it is.

Additional links

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Welcome, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link podcast. This is your host, Meagan. Guys, I am so excited about this story today. This is Taylor.

Taylor, we are so excited to have you on today. I am going to share a little bit about our course. Normally, we dive into reviews before we start the story, but I want to share a little bit more about our course. I wanted to let you guys know. We have a VBAC Prep Course. This prep course is for anybody wanting to explore their options for birth after Cesarean. You may or may not know if VBAC is right for you. This course is going to help you learn the pros and the cons of both VBAC and repeat Cesarean. 

We are going to dive into the history. We are going to give you tools. We are going to give you things to help you take with you to your provider to help establish a better relationship and help find out if that provider truly is supportive of you. 

Of course, there are some more stories in there and so much more information. This course is created for any birthing parent looking to know their options. And also, any birth worker wanting to expand their knowledge of VBAC and the history of VBAC and how to support future clients, especially if you are a doula on VBAC. Taylor is a labor and delivery nurse which is super exciting so we are going to talk a little bit more about that. I want to ask her some questions but even labor and delivery nurses, midwives, and birth workers, this course is going to be great for you. Learn more about our course at thevbaclink.com.

Taylor’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Taylor. I cannot wait for you to share your story. I was telling you in the beginning, when I saw your face pop up on our Zoom when we were getting ready to record, I just knew exactly who you were from your image. I just remember seeing it and having all of the feels so I can’t wait to hear from you. Right from your voice, so thank you so much for being here with us today. 

Taylor: Yes, thank you for having me. I am so excited. 

Meagan: Seriously, I’m so excited. I would love to turn the time over to you. Share away. Share this wonderful story with the world.

Taylor: Okay well, gosh. There are so many things. My first pregnancy was in 2020. July 2020 was when I had my first baby. That pregnancy was very uneventful. It was great. I didn’t have any issues. I strongly desired an unmedicated, vaginal birth. I got my husband to read The Bradley Method twice. Yeah. I just was chugging along. I actually wasn’t working labor and delivery yet. I was working in the mother/baby unit. That will kind of come into play later because I didn’t know what I didn’t know at the time. 

So just chugging along and then I got to about 36 weeks and I just felt like my feet were really itchy at night. I ended up telling a friend and she said that in her first pregnancy, that happened to her and she ended up having cholestasis. 

Meagan: Mhmm. I was going to say, cholestasis. 

Taylor: Yes, and so of course, I was just like, “Oh wow.” I went down the Google hole and I was like, “Oh, I have to tell my doctor. This sounds so scary.” I know y’all have talked about cholestasis on your podcast before, but basically, it’s a random issue with your liver during pregnancy. The worst-case result is a stillbirth or arrhythmias in the baby and things like that. My mind was just going straight to that. 

I told my doctor and she was of course like, “Oh yeah. We need to draw some labs.” They ended up drawing some labs and sent me on my way. They take about a week to come back, so I just was going on with life. 

Meagan: Which is so crazy to me. Can I just say that? This is a potentially serious thing and it takes a week. 

Taylor: Right, yep. So yeah. She gave me some medicine that was supposed to help with the itching and things like that. 

Meagan: I think it helps lower your liver enzyme levels right? 

Taylor: Yeah. It really is supposed to slow things down. I took it and I didn’t really feel like it helped, but I took it. Of course, I wanted the best thing for my baby. So I get to a little over 37 weeks at this point. I think I was 37 + 3. I was just at home. We had this really bad storm. My husband was normally off this day. It was a Monday. He was working late. The power went out. After the storm, I went outside to try and send him a text. He was calling me and said, “Hey. Have you talked to (one of my best friends who works at the hospital with me)? She’s been calling me. She’s been trying to get a hold of you.”

I just was like, “No. I haven’t had service. We lost power so the Wi-Fi went out.” So I called her and she was at work. She just said, “Taylor. The doctor’s been trying to call you. Your labs came back and you have cholestasis. They want you to come in tonight.” I was just like, “What? What? Hold on.” You know, I just was—

Meagan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You’ve got to wrap your mind around it for a sec. 

Taylor: Yeah. I could tell that she was really sad to be the one to call me because she knew that I just really wanted this Bradley Method birth. So my husband came home and I just was like, “No. This is not what I wanted at all. Ugh.” I just was so sad. We ended up going in, of course, because I thought that was my only– they didn’t give me any other options. I just thought, “Okay, well I need to do what they say.”

So I went in and yeah. I was a little over 37 weeks. They got me admitted. I ended up having a Cervadil that night and I was closed by the way. My cervix was closed, thick, and high. So I had a Cervadil just thinking, “Oh great. I’m going to have my baby probably tomorrow.” The next day rolls around. It’s still closed, thick, and high. I had another Cervadil which, if anyone has not had a Cervadil, it’s like a sandpaper tampon. It is horrible. 

Meagan: Mhmm, yeah. 

Taylor: It’s really horrible. So I had a second one with those and by the end of that day, still closed. I went in Monday night and between Monday night and Friday, I had had three Cervadils, Cytotec orally and vaginally, and a whole day of Pitocin. They tried to put a Cook Catheter through because, at some point, the furthest I got was a fingertip basically. The midwife was really, she was just trying so hard because I worked there and she knew I really wanted a vaginal delivery. So she was actually really awesome. 

But they tried to put a Cook catheter through my fingertip cervix. It was horrible. And yeah. So Friday morning rolls around and they came in. They were just like, “Yeah. There is really nothing else we can do at this point. I don’t know why nothing is working.” The doctors had already been trying to have a C-section on Wednesday and this was Friday. I just remember feeling so exhausted, so tired, and honestly, just in so much pain from all of the things. 

I looked at my husband and I was just like, “I guess I just know. I know that I’m going to have to have a C-section.” They were just like, “Yeah. That’s kind of your only option.” I ended up asking, “Can I go home? Can I go to antepartum? Can I just have some more time?” They just said, “No. We’ve done so much. You have cholestasis already. If it was going to work, it probably would have worked already.”

I ended up having a pretty good C-section. It wasn’t bad. It wasn’t rushed. Nothing was wrong with my baby. He wasn’t in distress or anything. We actually didn’t know it was a he. We didn’t find out what he was until he was born. But yeah, I just was pretty devastated. My husband was pretty devastated for me. We both were crying in the labor room all day until my C-section and then we just came to terms with it and it was fine. 

I had my C-section. I had my healthy little baby boy, Mason. And yeah. I had an easy recovery. I went home and I just knew that I was never going to have another C-section. That was my mindset when I went home because even though it was smooth and nothing was an emergency or anything, I just felt pretty devastated. I just remember even months after he was born, I would just cry in the shower thinking about it. I was like, “Why am I feeling like this?” I just never knew that your birth experience was just– now I know. It’s just truly one of the most important things that you’ll ever go through in life. 

Yeah. So I was determined that if I was going to get pregnant again, I was going to have my VBAC. So fast forward, my little Mason turned one. That was in July and I ended up finding out I was pregnant in September, so he was a little over one. I was ready. I was going to do all of my research and yeah. I started reading all of these books on VBACs. I went to the doctor and I knew– at this point, I was a labor and delivery nurse. My hospital is actually a community hospital and we don’t have in-house anesthesia, so we technically don’t do VBACs there. 

I went to see my doctor for my new appointment. She said, “Okay, well, we can put you down for a repeat C-section since you’ve had one.” I said, “No. I really want to have a VBAC.” She was great. She said, “Okay well, we, unfortunately, don’t do them here. The hospital that does is 2 hours away.” I said, “Okay,” because I already knew that. I knew she was going to say that. I was like, “ I am doing this.” 

Of course, then comes the VBAC calculator. The biggest thing that everyone kept saying was, “Well, your cervix never dilated with your first pregnancy, so that’s kind of a concern. We don’t know why that happened.” But anyways, I just knew that I still had a chance. They did the VBAC calculator, and yeah. I just planned on having my VBAC. 

I went through my pregnancy and all of my appointments just knowing that that was what I wanted. I found The VBAC Link podcast and listened to y’all every day. 

Meagan: Aww. 

Taylor: Yeah. I listened to VBAC birth stories. Yeah. It was just the best. I was listening to all of those and I remember I was 20-something weeks pregnant and I was at work one day. Someone I worked with was just like, “You know, I am totally for VBACs. I think they’re awesome, but I just don’t know if you’re a good candidate. There was a reason why you never dilated. I just remember I went in the bathroom and I just cried. I was devastated. She was not mean at all. It was like an honest conversation, but I texted my friend who had a VBAC after two C-sections. She ended up being my doula with my VBAC. I will tell you more about her. 

But I texted her and I was just so devastated. She was like, “Taylor. That is just not even true. You can do this.” I went forward and later in pregnancy, I went to the chiropractor, ate all of the dates, and drank the red raspberry leaf tea. I walked every day. I was chasing my toddler. I felt like I was healthier during this pregnancy, and yeah. I ended up being referred to that hospital that is two hours away when I was at 36 weeks. It’s a big teaching hospital, and so of course, they were like, “We prefer probably to be induced around 39 weeks.” I said, “Nope. I am not going to be induced. I don’t want that.”

“Okay, well, we definitely want you to deliver by the time you are at 40 weeks.” I said, “Nope”. 

Meagan: “Thanks, but no thanks.”

Taylor: I said, “Nope. I don’t want to be induced.” The doctor was just like, “Okay. Well, then what we will do is every week we will check your cervix and do a membrane sweep and see if we can get things moving. After 40 weeks, you’ll just have to come back for NSTs and things.” I said, “Nope.” I was like–

Meagan: Way to advocate for yourself. 

Taylor: Yes. I, oh my gosh. That was just comical looking back. In the moment though, it was really scary because it is scary to tell a doctor, “No,” especially because we just assume that they know everything. Even being a labor and delivery nurse, sometimes it’s hard for me and I have to advocate for my patients and things. In the moment, it was scary, but now, I’m just so glad I did. 

I ended up having an appointment at 39 weeks at my local OB here. She was like, “Can I just check you, and maybe can I do a sweep?” I was just like, “Okay,” but telling myself, “Okay. This is not going to change anything whether I’m closed.” I just knew that it could be a trigger for me because the whole week of being induced with my son, everyone was just like, “Oh, you’re still closed. You’re still closed. Closed, closed, closed.” 

This time, I was like, “Okay. I am not going to let it be a trigger. It doesn’t mean anything.” I let her check me and of course, I was closed. But honestly, it didn’t bother me. Of course, the doctor was like, “We’ll have to talk to the other hospital and they’re probably going to want you to be induced. If you’re not dilated by 40 weeks, then I feel like they’re going to want you to have a C-section.” 

I just left there and I was really just like, “Seriously, no. No. I have come so far,” because I had my other baby so early. It ended up being 38 weeks because I was there for so long. I was like, “No.” I did not schedule another appointment. I was like, “I am not going back until I have my baby,” which probably was not that smart, but I just knew I was going to pay attention to my body, pay attention to baby moving, and if I went too far past, I definitely would make an appointment, but I was like, “I’m not right now. I can’t think about that because I don’t want them to check me again. I don’t want to have a weak moment and be induced.” 

So anyways, I went on my way. The day before my due date, I ended up drinking some midwife’s brew castor oil. I drank that the day before my due date and I ended up within a couple of hours just having intense contractions every 1-3 minutes. This lasted for a few hours. My husband was like, “Okay. Is this labor? Do we need to go?” Because we have a two-hour drive. 

He ended up calling my friend, Cami, who was going to go as my doula. She, like I said, had a VBAC herself at the same hospital two hours away. So he calls Cami. She comes over and I was just really into these contractions. She said, “Yeah. We have a long drive. Let’s just go.” These contractions continued the whole way down there. We get there. At this point, it had been past midnight, so I’m 40 weeks on the dot. 

They checked me and I was closed. Closed, thick, and high. 

Meagan: Oh, I bet that was hard. 

Taylor: Yeah, it was. I had actually had some bloody show on the way there, so I just knew I was going to be dilated. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Taylor: I was like, “Okay, I am not dilated. This isn’t real. This is just from the castor oil. I’m going home.” The resident was just like, “Oh yeah. I don’t think that’s going to happen. You’re 40 weeks. You have a previous uterine scar and I just don’t think we can discharge you.” I just said, “Yes, you can actually.”

Meagan: “I don’t think we can discharge you.” Huh. “Hello, I’m leaving.” 

Taylor: I just remember that my husband was like, “No, no, no,” because we had already been through so much with my first birth, and so I was like, “Yeah. Actually, can you go talk to someone else? Your attending or someone? I’m leaving. I know if I sleep, my contractions will stop. I’m not worried. I know all of the risks.” They tried to tell me the risks so many times. I was like, “Yeah. I know all of the risks and I still want to go home.”

Anyways, they came back in, and actually, they made me sign out AMA. I was like, “Oh my gosh. I’m a nurse and I’m signing out against medical advice.” 

Meagan: AMA. So against medical advice is AMA, everybody. They’ll say scary things like, “If you sign this AMA, you might not be welcomed back,” or “If you sign this AMA, insurance won’t cover you when you do come back,” or “If you sign this AMA, no one is going to help you.” They scare you.

Taylor: Yes. Yep, definitely. And honestly, if I hadn’t just listened to so many people’s birth stories and done so much research and I didn’t know everything I knew, I probably would have been scared into staying which makes me sad for a lot of people because I know I would not have had my baby vaginally if I would have stayed. 

So I signed out AMA. I went home, slept the whole car ride home and sure enough, my contractions stopped. I was 40 weeks at this point and slept most of the day. I woke up in the middle of the night with these intense-seeming, regular contractions. I was like, “Oh wow. Maybe it’s starting for real.” It happened for a couple of hours and ended up stopping. I was like, “Oh wow. Okay. Well, I guess that wasn’t real.” 

So fast forward a few more days and that happened every night. It was horrible. I had some nice prodromal labor. Yeah. It was horrible because I just felt like, “Is labor ever actually going to start? What in the world? What is this?” I just remember my friend, Cami, who was my doula, she was just like, “Taylor, with every contraction, your body is just getting ready. Okay? It’s doing what it’s supposed to do. Don’t be discouraged. You can do it.” She was just so encouraging. 

I just have to stop and say that a good doula is so key. Oh my gosh. I never even realized. Even as a labor and delivery nurse, I never realized how important. 

Meagan: It’s so true. It’s so true, yeah. 

Taylor: Yes, yes. My husband was so great too. He was awesome. 

It was the day before I was 41 weeks, so I was 40 + 6. It was my birthday, so my husband and I just went to a quick dinner out and we ended up stopping at the grocery store. I kind of had some random contractions that afternoon every 15 minutes, but again, I had this prodromal labor for a week, so I didn’t believe anything was real. 

We go to the grocery store after dinner and I felt just like, “Maybe I peed my pants.” I went to the bathroom and I was like, “Maybe I did,” because there wasn’t much of anything. I was like, “Caleb, I think maybe I accidentally peed my pants or something. I don’t know, but we need to go home.” 

We go home and I just laid down. When I stood up, I felt a big gush. I was like, “No. No, my water’s not breaking right now,” because I definitely was not in labor and that was kind of my worst nightmare was my water breaking and not being in labor. 

Yeah. I definitely knew my water broke. I was like, “Okay. I still feel baby moving. Everything feels fine. I am laying down. I’m just going to try to wait it out and see if maybe contractions will start.” 

I texted Cami and told her, “I think my water broke, but I’m going to lay down and see if maybe some contractions will start up.” They did. They ended up being every 4-5 minutes for two hours, but I ended up noticing some meconium in my fluid. I just knew, “Okay. Well, I guess we do have a two-hour drive.” I wanted to just stay home so badly just because of the last time driving down there and still being closed. 

But then I just knew, “Okay. There’s meconium and I have been contracting for about two hours. Maybe we’ll just go head down.” On the way down there in the drive, I could totally tell that the contractions were spacing out. I just kept trying not to think about it. I had my AirPods in. I was just listening to music trying to be comfortable, trying just to relax as much as possible. We get down to the hospital and get checked in. Basically, they remembered me from the week before. 

It was actually the same nurse. 

Meagan: They remembered me.

Taylor: They did. They remembered me and basically, instead of a triage room, they took me straight to a labor room. They were not going to let me go home this time which, of course, I didn’t. 

I go in and there were just so many doctors because like I said, it is a teaching hospital. There were so many people in the room. They were just telling me all of the risks again of having a uterine scar and, “Are you sure you don’t want a C-section?” I was just like, “No. I don’t want one. I’ve said this so many times.”

“Okay. Well–” And I was super uncomfortable because all of these people were there. Bright lights were on and at this point, no contractions whatsoever. Of course, they checked me and I was closed. I was just like, “No. This is not real. This is my worst nightmare. I can’t believe this is happening,” because immediately–

Meagan: So frustrating. 

Taylor: Yeah. Immediately, it was, “Okay. Well, you need to sign this form saying you don’t want a C-section and then we really want to start Pitocin.” I just said, “Yeah, no. I just need everyone to please leave me alone for a little bit. Can I just be alone in here?” I was so overwhelmed and it was the middle of the night. 

They were like, “Uhh, sure. We don’t have much time because your water has been broken for a few hours and you’re not having any contractions, so just know that we are going to come back and talk to you about Pitocin.” I said, “Okay. That’s fine. I just, please, want to be left alone. I just want to sleep.” 

So we ended up being able to sleep for a couple of hours. The next morning came around because it was already 5:00 a.m. when we were there. I wake up and the day shift nurse comes on. She said, “Yeah, they’re going to want to come in and talk to you.” I said, “Okay. I just want one person coming in.” I was determined because I tend to be a people pleaser and so I was just like, “No. I am not going to do that again because last night was so uncomfortable with all of those people here. Labor totally sucked. I just want one doctor coming in.” 

She said, “Okay.” A couple of hours later, a midwife walks in. I’m sure they were like, “This girl’s crazy. Who wants her?” A midwife walked in and she was just so awesome and so calm. She asked me what I wanted. I said, “I just really don’t want Pitocin. I want a VBAC so badly.” She was like, “Okay” and basically just said, “Well, how about you pump for a little bit, try and do some nipple stimulation to get some contractions started.” 

She’s like, “I really wish that I could tell you to take some midwife’s brew.” I guess she had worked at a birth center for 12 years before this teaching hospital. I said, “I have all of the ingredients. Don’t worry.” She said, “Okay. Well, if you take it, don’t tell me. It could take a few hours, so I’m just going to leave you alone for a while and we’ll see if your contractions start up.” 

I was just so thankful. That just kept the momentum going because I kind of felt at a loss before that like, “Oh, I’m going to have to have Pitocin.” Anyways, I take the midwife’s brew, pump, and that afternoon, it was a few hours later, and I did start having contractions. At this point, it was 18 hours after my water had broken, so yeah. I started having contractions and the midwife went off. A new doctor came on and they checked me and I was 1. 

I was 1 centimeter. I was just like, “Oh my gosh. My cervix dilated. Oh my gosh. I can’t believe this is happening.” Even though I was just 1, I remember high-fiving the resident. I was like, “Yes. This is happening.” Little did I know, I still had a long way to go. 

But yeah. So they were like, “All right. We really want to start Pitocin. You’re just really not progressing very much, but 1 is good. But we want to start Pit.” I said, “Okay. I want the absolute lowest dose and I want it as low as you can go basically.” They said, “Okay. We can do that. We’ll start low.” My night shift nurse was amazing. They started Pitocin. Literally, after an hour, they had to shut it off. I just started contracting so much. 

It was really intense. It was, I mean, every two minutes at least. Every 1-2 minutes. They had to shut it off because I was contracting too much. I was in and out of the shower, just throwing up. It felt like I was in transition. It was that intense for hours. I think maybe 4 hours of just sleeping between contractions, again, up to the shower, just walking around the room, not being able to focus on anything but the contractions, my husband and my doula were like, “Man, we really feel like she’s been acting like transition for hours. Maybe, Taylor, do you want to be re-checked?”

So at 2:00 a.m., they came back in and I was 2. After all of that, legitimately thought the baby was coming and I was 2. The doctor was actually very happy about that. She was like, “You’re 2. That’s awesome.” I just really actually loved this doctor that was on. But of course, my husband, my doula, and I were like, “Seriously? A 2?” It just felt like all of the air was sucked out of the room because we were all exhausted and I just truly didn’t know what I was going to do. 

They really wanted to start the Pitocin back up because they were like, “Maybe these contractions just aren’t strong enough.” I was like, “I can’t. I just don’t think I can do this plus more Pitocin. This is just so intense.” So they were talking to me. I’m still having these really intense contractions while we are talking. They leave the room. My husband goes out because he just wants to know how he can continue to be positive for me because he basically just wanted to know if something was wrong. 

So he leaves the room. My doula and I, I was just telling her. I was like, “Is something wrong with me?” I’m crying and I’m just like, “Maybe my body wasn’t meant for this. Maybe I really can’t do it.” We all were sitting there and she was just trying to be encouraging. The doctor comes back in and she was like, “Taylor, I just really think you need to rest.” Because at this point, I did not have any pain medicine. I didn’t have an epidural. I was still determined that I was going to have my unmedicated birth. 

I ended up going back and forth for a while. “No, I don’t want an epidural.” I agreed to some pain medicine. I got to sleep for a little bit. I did end up getting an epidural around 5:30 in the morning and we all got to sleep for a little while. I woke up the next day. My day shift nurse came on and she was like, “Okay. We are going to change your position. We are going to get on this. We are going to have a baby.” 

I still hadn’t had much Pitocin because I was still just contracting so much on my own. My nurse was just amazing. We did a whole circuit of all of these positions which actually, I already knew from being a nurse but a lot of people don’t do them. I had actually taken a class that she had taken too. It was kind of like a Spinning Babies class. 

So I was just like, “Oh my gosh. What are the odds that I get this girl?” I just was so happy. So we did all of the stuff and I started feeling all of the contractions again. I was like, “Okay. Well, maybe the baby is in a weird position or whatnot.” They came in to check me and the doctor was in there for a while. I was like, “Great. She’s trying to find my cervix. Can’t find it. Oh wow. Still a 2 probably.” 

Meagan: Or it’s gone. 

Taylor: Yeah, or it’s gone.

She was like, “Okay. Well, you are a 9.” 

Meagan: Oh! Really, actually, it was gone. 

Taylor: Yeah. I was like, “Oh my gosh! What? Are you serious? I’m 9? Because all of this emotion just came flooding because everyone had said, “You probably won’t dilate again” or all of these things. I was just like, “I’m 9. Oh my gosh.”

Anyway, so I ended up just having a super smooth delivery. I was complete. I just felt like the baby was coming out. I told my doula. She was like, “Yep. Baby is coming out.” I went and got my nurse and I pushed a few times and boom. She came out. I didn’t know it was a girl until she came out. 

Yeah. I just remember being like, “Y’all. I did this. I cannot believe this.” I just was in so much shock. I didn’t cry or anything. I just was like, “Yes to everyone who told me I couldn’t do it.” It was just amazing. Yeah. I just couldn’t believe that I did it. I still can’t believe that I did it. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, when so many people place doubt, even though we believe that we can do it, we start believing that we can’t. We start believing that doubt, right? 

Taylor: Yes. 

Meagan: Then having to go through all of what you had to go through and sign an AMA then return at the same stage. All of these things, yeah. That could be a time when you would let self-doubt get you. But you did it. 

Taylor: Yeah, it was amazing. I did. Oh, I still can’t believe it. 

Meagan: You did it. Oh, that’s awesome. Congratulations. I kind of love the doubt stories. I know it sounds really bad, but I have this weird thing. I love proving things wrong because I did the same thing. My doctor doubted me and was like, “Yeah. No one is going to want you there.” I was like, “Yeah. You watch me. You watch me.” It drove me even further, so I love it. I love that you stuck with it. You advocated for you and your husband together. Just so awesome and then having that total shift of positivity and “Let’s do this. We’re going to have a baby.”

It’s so important. I want to talk a little bit about labor and delivery nurses as you are a labor and delivery nurse. What tips or suggestions would you give to people that are on the other side like you were? Giving birth and wanting certain things and maybe having a labor and delivery nurse that maybe isn’t as supportive of your wishes or pushing hard whether it be them or the provider pushing hard against them. What would you suggest? 

Taylor: Yes. So my number one thing is to try so hard to research and just educate yourself before you go in. But the biggest thing is asking questions. If you’re not sure about something or if you– let’s say they want to come in and break your water. You’re just like, “Okay. I don’t know anything about that, but I don’t actually know that I want to do that,” and you don’t feel good about it, you don’t have to do it. You can say, “No.” 

I think people don’t realize that they can say, “No” or at least ask more questions about it. That is what even as a nurse, I always tell my patients. If a doctor comes in and wants to do something, I say, “Okay. Are you okay with that? Do you have any questions?” Just really advocate, advocate, advocate for yourself because luckily I had an awesome doula. And get a doula!

I had an awesome doula and my husband who could bring me back down to Earth and say, “Taylor, no. You don’t want this” or “Are you sure about that? Why don’t we ask some questions?” But definitely just advocate, advocate, advocate. Ask questions. If they want you to be induced, why? Is there an actual reason? What other options do you have? Ask for options. 

When I had cholestasis, I didn’t know that I could have had another option. My value was not high, my bio acids. It was only 16. 

Meagan: Ohh. 

Taylor: Yes. I didn’t know. Maybe I could have asked. Could you trend that? Do I have to come in tonight? 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Taylor: Yeah. I didn’t know and I didn’t know then. I think a lot of people probably are like that. You don’t know. 

Meagan: You don’t even know that there are different numbers that could make it seem like you don’t need to go in right then. 

Taylor: Right, yes. So advocate for yourself. Ask questions. You know yourself better than anybody. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Thank you so much again for being with us today. I love your story. It’s just so hard coming in. There are so many times where you were like, “It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen.” But look at what patience and time did for you, and making choices like getting an epidural and getting some rest. Your body was able to rest and get the rest it needed to progress and the relaxation that it needed. 

A lot of people say that you can’t have a VBAC without an epidural. Some people say that you have to have a VBAC with an epidural. It just is dependent on that person and that situation. You make the decisions that are best for you. It looks like you nailed it. 

Taylor: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here. I still. Thank you so much, Meagan.

Meagan: Oh, thank you. Okay, I can’t wait for everyone to hear your story. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

After infertility and an initial C-section due to breech presentation, Julia knew that a VBAC was the redemption she needed. During her VBAC prep, she truly did it all.

Julia labored hard, completely dilated, and pushed like a warrior. She was calling the shots and was fully supported every step of the way. 

But as she pushed, the radiating shoulder pain became hard to ignore. Baby’s heart was decelerating. Yellow-tinged amniotic fluid suggested meconium.

Julia wanted to keep pushing, but she also knew something wasn’t right. Julia proved her true strength by listening. She put her body and her baby above her own birth dreams. We are SO proud of Julia’s courage and know you will be inspired by her many victories!

Additional links

Bloom Nutrition

TVL Blog: Understanding Uterine Rupture

TVL Blog: How To Cope When You Don’t Get Your VBAC

TVL CBAC Facebook Community

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full transcript

Note: All transcripts are edited to correct grammar, false starts, and filler words. 

Meagan: Happy Wednesday, everybody. This is Meagan with The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Julia, with us today. Julia’s story is going to be a CBAC. I love CBAC stories. I know that here at The VBAC Link, you think, “Oh, it should be all VBAC,” because that’s what we talk about which yes, it is a main focus of VBAC, but we don’t want to forget about our CBAC mamas. 

I was a CBAC mama myself and it is so important to talk about that as well because just like every first birth may unexpectedly go into a Cesarean, so are those VBAC births. Sometimes those are unexpected. Sometimes they are desired, and so we really like to talk about everything here and share all of the pros and the cons of everything. 

I am excited about Julia’s story. I feel like in so many ways, even though I have had a VBAC, I can connect to CBACs so deeply as well because I have had a CBAC. That CBAC wasn’t actually something that I desired necessarily, but that CBAC was something that I found a lot of healing through. So I’m excited to go into this story. 

Review of the Week

Meagan: But of course, you know we have a Review of the Week. We are always looking for more reviews so if you haven’t yet, feel free to jump over on Apple or wherever you are listening or email us. Google and send us a review. We would love to know how you feel about The VBAC Link podcast and how the stories of all of these incredible people are changing the way you’re viewing and the things that you are learning along your journey. 

This review is actually on our VBAC course for our Ultimate Parents’ VBAC Course. This is from Dani and it says, “This course gave me the knowledge and confidence I needed to move forward with my plan to have an HBAC.” If you didn’t know, HBAC is home birth after Cesarean. “When you realize that VBAC is just birth and hear the studies and insights that eliminate the mess and evoke a lot of the fear in many C-section mamas, you realize you’ve got this. I was empowered to find a provider that truly supported me and realize how much my gut was telling me my previous provider was not the way to go. I can’t wait to share my HBAC story when the time comes. Thank you so much for all you do.”

And thank you, Dani. That is amazing. That is what we want to do here at The VBAC Link. We want to share all of the pros, the cons, and prepare you the way you need to be prepared whether that is for a vaginal birth after a Cesarean or a Cesarean birth after a Cesarean or home birth. Whatever that may be, we want to empower you and put the tools in your pocket for you to use. 

So if you have any other questions about our online course, we actually have them for birth workers as well. We have certified doulas, which, also, if you are looking for a doula, check out our website. We have so many incredible doulas all over the world. Seriously, all over the world. You can go to thevbaclink.com and click “courses” or “find a doula” to learn more about our online self-paced course. 

Julia’s Story

Meagan: Okay, Julia. I am so excited to talk with you today. Thank you so much for being here with us, for taking the time out of your day, and for being someone to share a very vulnerable space because I know sometimes CBAC is vulnerable. It is vulnerable, but I’m looking at your picture of you holding your baby after your C-section and it is beautiful. You are glowing. You are absolutely glowing. I mean, your smile is amazing. 

So I will turn the time over to you to share your experience with a CBAC. 

Julia: Okay, thank you so much. I’m so honored to be here at The VBAC Link. I had the goal of sharing a VBAC story, but I am proud of myself for coming back and sharing my CBAC story regardless even though it didn’t turn out the way I had planned it to. I hope that my story can help at least one other person as your stories have helped me.  

Meagan: Yes. Yeah. It will. It definitely will. I remember having that feeling of that too of wanting so badly to share my VBAC story on The Birth Hour actually if you guys know The Birth Hour podcast. 

Julia: Yep. Yep, I’m very familiar. 

Meagan: I was like, “I am going to be a VBAC. I’m going to share on The Birth Hour.” It was not a VBAC and then I was like, “Oh.” And I did. I kind of was like, “Oh. I won’t submit it.” But I regret that. I totally regret that. I actually did submit my VBAC story as well. They get so many submissions as well, but I am so glad that you are here and that you are proud of yourself because you should be. 

Julia: Mhmm, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. So I’ll start out by tracing back to my first pregnancy because it paves the way for my second pregnancy and birth if that’s okay. 

Meagan: Right. Right. Yeah, absolutely. 

Julia: Going back, starting in October 2018, my husband and I had just gotten married and we were ready to start a family. My story has a bit of infertility in it, so I’ll touch on that if that’s okay. Yeah. I started trying to get pregnant in October 2018 and wasn’t getting my period. I decided to take matters into my own hands very quickly and go see an OB. They started me on medicated cycles with them, and I did three of those. Those were unsuccessful. 

In September 2019, I went to a reproductive endocrinologist, and in November, so two months later, we did our first IUI and it was successful. That’s how my first daughter was conceived. Just wanted to touch on infertility. It’s over now, but it was quite a big part of my story too because just another– I thought my body could do something that is always talked about happening very easily and it didn’t, so that was crushing at the time. It still is part of who I am and also dictated my feelings with my C-sections. 

I’ll fast forward to finding out that I would need a C-section with my daughter, Charlotte. My pregnancy with her was uncomplicated aside from happening during COVID and just not having a lot of support during that time. I just did an online birth class through my hospital that was just very cookie-cutter. I didn’t really get the opportunity to explore. I did interview some doulas in April 2020 and then it never really came to fruition. 

When I was 37 weeks, I found out that Charlotte was breech. There had been no indications of it up until that point. My OB does a check at 36 weeks to see if baby is head down and I was a little late for that. That appointment was a little further down. 

Meagan: Delayed. 

Julia: Yeah. Delayed. I didn’t get seen until 37 weeks and then at that point, it’s kind of a lot to find out that your baby is breech then because efforts to try and turn them are not as easy. It happens, I’m sure, but not for me. I had the opportunity to try an ECV, an external cephalic version, but I opted not to. I just didn’t have a good feeling about it. 

They scheduled my C-section for August 6th. I will say that this was hard for me to cope with. I did have a period of grieving. During my whole pregnancy, people would ask me what my birth plan was and I said, “Anything but a C-section.” When that happened to me, I felt that I had jinxed myself, but I know that’s not necessarily true. 

Her birth was on August 6th of 2020. I went in at noon. They gave me a COVID test. They hooked me up to the machines. There was a little delay because my OB was dealing with a vaginal birth. I remember at the time, even then, I was like, “That hurts,” that the person having a vaginal birth is getting precedence over me. It just was one last dig that I wasn’t getting the vaginal birth that I had hoped for because I had been hoping for a vaginal birth.

But anyways, they took me back at 3:00 and my daughter was born shortly after. I had no problems with breastfeeding. She latched quickly. I was only in the hospital for 36 hours just, especially during COVID, they were encouraging people to leave as quickly as possible as long as things were okay. 

That was my story, so I do think I went home a little too early post-C-section. I remember taking that first trip up my stairs because I live in a two-story home and it was brutal. 

Meagan: Yeah. I had stairs with my second C-section. We had a breezeway that you had to pull down and then you had to climb upstairs to get to the first level and then climb up the stairs to get to the second level. There were 16-17 stairs in each set. I was just crawling, crawling up them. I was like, “I’m not coming downstairs. Everyone can bring me food. I’m not coming back down.” 

Julia: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I had dinner in bed that night or the next few nights. Yeah. Same story. I was like, “I’m not going back down for a while. So I dealt with that. Overall, my feelings around it were I was disappointed that I didn’t get my vaginal birth, but as the weeks went by, my experience as I looked back, was okay. It was straightforward. No complications and my recovery went well. It was hard though as we just talked about it. It’s easy to glaze over that. 

I had started to read already about pregnancy number two and how it’s extra hard to care for your first child while recovering from a C-section so that was a big motivator for me for my next birth. But yeah. Pretty soon after, I remember sitting in the rocking chair with my daughter while I was nap-trapped and getting on forums researching about C-sections and having weird, sad feelings about having a C-section after a birth. I think that was new to me. 

I felt a lot of feelings of inadequacy or just disappointment around it. I didn’t quite know that that was normal and then I think researching that led me to find out that a VBAC was an option. It’s interesting to think back to a time when I didn’t know what a VBAC was really. 

Meagan: Right? 

Julia: I could talk about it for hours now. But yeah, that term VBAC kept coming up, so I knew that in my next pregnancy that that was what I wanted to aim for in my next birth. After my daughter turned one in August 2021, I pretty quickly wanted to start trying for number two. One, I was genuinely excited to try and start working towards a VBAC, and given my history of infertility, I wanted to get started sooner rather than later. 

We had to get help with getting pregnant again. We did an IUI and we were lucky enough that it was successful on the first try again. That was in September 2021. I pretty quickly started forming my birth team just having already done so much research on VBAC and knowing that was essential to success. I did go to my first OB appointment at my old OB’s office and just wanted to pick their brains about what their policy was on VBAC. They told me that they don’t induce VBACs or don’t induce with a previous Cesarean delivery. They would give me up until 40 weeks up until my due date to go into labor naturally but if I didn’t, they would schedule a C-section. 

I heard that and I was like, “Yeah, I’m out of here.” I, in the meantime, joined some local mom groups and my local ICAN chapter Facebook group. I stumbled upon this group of midwives in the Michigan area that was close to me that was very VBAC friendly. I read a lot of success stories with that group of midwives. There was one in particular whose name kept coming up. I reached out to them and got set up with their group. I had to switch complete hospital systems. It was a little complicated but it was worth it. 

I switched providers and I also hired a doula very early on or signed on with her very early on, maybe at 9-10 weeks into my pregnancy. She also offered Hypnobirthing classes so my husband and I did those virtually. That was really cool. Like I said, with my first pregnancy, I really didn’t get much support to help me towards a vaginal birth although I ended up with my daughter being breech and if I had prepared, that wouldn’t have necessarily changed things much. But I felt really well supported during this pregnancy through those Hypnobirthing classes and exploring the more holistic way of prepping for birth. 

I got really into– I mean, I will say it was towards the end when I really started practicing my Hypnobirthing breathing and practicing the meditations. I did that and I also started seeing a chiropractor at 20 weeks. I went pretty much every week especially given my history of having a breech baby, I wanted to optimize my pelvic alignment for that. So that was another way that I felt supported just constantly getting really good, positive feedback from my providers like, “Oh yeah. You are such a good candidate for VBAC. You’re doing all of the right things.”

I also did the Spinning Babies Daily Essentials. I was constantly thinking about my posture and my sitting position when I was sitting at night on my couch. I would sit forward again to promote good alignment with the baby’s head. I did all of the usual. At 34 weeks, I started red raspberry leaf tea. At 36 weeks, I started eating dates 3 times a day. I was walking. I was sitting on my birthing ball a lot more towards the end just to ideally promote labor to start naturally because as I got closer to the end of my pregnancy, the pressure to go into labor naturally started to build in my head just because I read that the best chance of success with a VBAC is going into labor naturally. 

That was heavy on my mind as it got closer and closer. I live in Michigan, but I’m originally from Massachusetts so my mom flew out the day before my due date which was June 17th of 2022. When she came out, I felt even more pressure. She was not pressuring me at all, but I just felt the pressure building like, “Okay. The spotlight’s on me to go into labor.” 

I just remember those few days until I did ultimately “go into labor” were very hard emotionally but they were also nice. I spent it walking with my mom and just doing activities with my daughter to pass the time. It was a time I was very much present just because I was very much aware as the days went by that I would inevitably be having this baby sooner than later. 

I went in at 39 weeks for my checkup and I knew I wanted to get checked then. I hadn’t been checked until then. I was tempted to but I didn’t just to avoid the mental gymnastics of dilation and all that. At 39 weeks, my midwife checked me and I was a fingertip dilated, but she said I was very soft. My cervix was very soft and my cervix was 80% effaced. She was very hopeful about that. 

I went home and Googled that. They said that was a good place to be for labor to start eventually. I wasn’t totally closed and high or anything like that. I had the next checkup at 40 weeks and 4 days. I was still the same, a fingertip. Soft cervix, 80% effaced so I was a little discouraged by that. In the meantime, I had started upping my attempts to induce labor naturally. I started pumping at night. I did a lot of curb walking and my doula encouraged me to buy some clary sage essential oil. I guess if you put some on your feet and I had my husband massage my feet with the clary sage oil and put it on some pressure points that it could help kickstart labor. 

Meagan: Spleen 6 can help. A lot of people go and get pedicures and then they go into labor and they’re like, “Oh what?” That’s what they’re doing. They’re massaging down there really well and it can totally help. Yeah. 

Julia: Yeah. Yeah, so I did that clary sage and the foot massage the night before I did actually technically go into labor. I don’t know if that helped or if that kickstarted things. At 40 weeks and 5 days, it was about 9:00 in the morning and I was sitting down for breakfast with my daughter. My mom was there and my husband was there, but he was working from home. I went to go stand up and I felt a warm gush of fluid. I was like, “Oh, that’s interesting.” I stopped and said, “Oh my god. I think I just peed myself.”

Yeah. Of all the ways I thought my labor would start, I never thought it would be with my water breaking. I don’t know why. You always hear that women are like, “I’m just peeing myself. That’s not my water breaking.” It didn’t come out in a big gush, but it was small gushes throughout the morning. I put on a pad and I did notice even from the beginning that my pad was a little yellow-ish tinged. I didn’t think too much of it. Immediately, my mind went to meconium, but I thought that would be a little more green or brown, I think I was reading, so I wasn’t too concerned about that. 

I just went about my morning because I was still skeptical that I wasn’t peeing myself and that it was my water. Around noon, I texted my doula to let her know. She was excited that things were happening. I did tell her that the pad had a little bit of a yellowish tinge. She texted back that it was likely meconium but to not be too concerned. 

Once she confirmed that I got anxious just from what I had heard from birth stories. That’s not the best way to start labor is one, your water breaking first without really any cramping or contractions afterward. That was the other side of it. I didn’t really have a lot of cramping afterward that was indicating that labor was picking up. 

Once she told me that was meconium, I pretty much was like, “Okay. We need to go to the hospital.” I think in an ideal world given that I was trying to avoid intervention as long as I could that I would maybe hang out at home for a little while longer to see if labor progressed, but once I heard it could have been meconium, I was like, “Okay. We need to go.” 

So we did. I arrived around 1:00 p.m. that day. I went to triage and got checked. They confirmed that my water had broken and that there was some meconium staining as they called it. I got checked in. We went over my birth plan. The vibe was very positive and I had submitted a birth plan to my midwife. She submitted it to the hospital so it was very nice to know that they were on board with my birth plan. They had looked it over. The midwife that came in to check me said, “I know what your birth plan is and what you want.” That was really nice to hear already and to feel supported. 

They checked me in. I got into a room and they encouraged me to walk the halls to kickstart contractions and also tried nipple stimulation with pumping. They recommended pumping for 10 minutes on, 20 minutes off, and also going in the shower. All of the rooms at the hospital where I delivered had a tub and a shower. They encouraged me to go in there and use the showerhead for nipple stimulation as well to help kickstart contractions. 

I did that from 1:00 until about 8:00 p.m. Labor really didn’t start up. Around 8:30, the midwife came in and we decided to start Pitocin. I wasn’t too keen on it just because I knew that starting any intervention like that could decrease my chances of VBAC, but I was also at the same time excited to get contractions going and get things started just because I knew that I was on somewhat of a clock. My midwife group did not push the time between when my water broke and when I would have to deliver. 

They didn’t put that pressure on me which was very nice, but in my head, I knew that I personally didn’t want it if there was something going on, I didn’t want my baby to be in danger given that my water had been broken for 12 hours already. It broke at 9:00 a.m. and this was around 9:00 p.m. when we started Pitocin and there was some meconium staining in it. I was nervous for myself. I put faith in my midwives, but I knew that I was also concerned. 

Initially, she started at 2 units of Pitocin and then upped it every hour I believe. She upped it, I want to say, by 2 units every hour. Around 11:00, things picked up. I took a selfie of myself in the hospital bed at 10:45. I was looking back at my pictures. I was smiling and that was the last picture I took for the remainder of the birth up until my daughter was born. That’s how I know that at 11:00 things started to pick up because that’s when I went into labor land and full-on contractions. 

My husband and I started timing contractions. I was really excited to feel a contraction. I wanted to deliver vaginally of course, but one thing that I missed out on with my first birth was the labor experience because it was planned. I didn’t feel a single contraction with my first birth so I was excited to feel that and at least have that experience I did get that experience so that’s something that has helped me come to terms with it all. 

When the contractions started, I was happy although I was in pain. We were just trying different positions. I went into the tub and since I was a VBAC, I was on continuous monitoring so being in the tub was hard, but my nurse was great about making sure that the monitors stayed on my belly even when I was writhing around in pain in the tub. They had the band around my belly and then they put a pantyhose sleeve over it to secure the monitor, but it did keep moving around and all that. They never made me get out of the tub or anything to keep it more secure. That didn’t happen. They just worked hard to do their best. 

Around 5:00 a.m. on the next day, I was up to about 12 units of Pitocin. I was reading back through my notes and my midwife said I wasn’t tolerating those contractions very well, so she turned it down to 10 units. I will backtrack a little bit and say that around 3:00, my doula showed up just because I was in a lot of pain but I wasn’t ready for pain relief yet and just wanted her to come and help me along. My doula showed up around 3:00 a.m.

She was very supportive and was helping me through contractions. She did encourage me to get in the tub another time even though I had gotten out. It just was not working for me. It was not giving me pain relief. The tub wasn’t very big. It was kind of like your classic tub, so it was hard to really get in a comfortable position. It even felt like the contractions were worse in the tub. I didn’t experience that relief that I thought the water might give me. 

Around 6:00 or so, we started talking about pain relief medication. They gave me the option for fentanyl which, they said, would be a short burst of relief, or the epidural. I was pretty well educated on both options, but I did take a little while to make the decision to ultimately go with the epidural just because I knew that again, it could slow down my labor and could lead to not achieving my goal of a VBAC. 

I was contracting every 2-4 minutes at that point. The surges, I guess I haven’t been calling them surges as we had been taught in Hypnobirthing. The surges were very intense. Around 7:00, I got the epidural and I felt some relief when they gave it to me. They pretty much encouraged me to take a nap. I was able to close my eyes for 40 minutes but didn’t sleep too long. I didn’t get that 3 or 4-hour nap that you sometimes get post-epidural. 

And then around 10:00, I said that I was feeling some pubic bone pressure. It was just very intense and I could not ignore it. It didn’t seem like the epidural was touching it much. I will say that I wasn’t using the epidural button too much to give me more medication. I don’t know why. I think that maybe I was just in labor land and didn’t think to use it. I did press it a couple of times and it didn’t really seem to touch the pubic bone pressure. 

I had the midwife come in. She checked me at that point around 10:00 a.m. I was 5 centimeters dilated which was exciting. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s way awesome. That’s really awesome. 

Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. The whole time, I was just in disbelief that I was living the story that I had heard so many times of actually having interventions and dilating and all that. But when she checked me, I was 5 centimeters, but she also said that the baby was malpositioned. Her chin wasn’t tucked as it should be. It was up, so that was likely causing the pubic bone pressure and also keeping me from dilating more. 

They hadn’t checked me much. I think that was the first time they had checked me since I went to triage the previous day just because my water had broken and they try to avoid that as much as they can to reduce the risk of infection. So from 10:00 until 3:00, we worked on getting the baby to move into a better position so that I could dilate more. 

I think a midwife checked me at another point between 10 and 3 and I hadn’t progressed at all. I think there was a little bit of pressure or just a little bit of tension with not dilating during that time, and given the “clock” that I was on with my water broken. We talked about options for what would happen if I didn’t progress more, but by 3:00, she did check me again and I was 7 centimeters dilated. I remember being like, “Oh my gosh. I’m going to have my VBAC. It’s happening.” 

I remember crying because I was really concerned that I wasn’t going to progress. Especially, I think I was blaming it on the epidural which made me nervous. So that was exciting. 

Right after that, from 3:00-5:00, I took a nap. It was a really nice time. While I was sleeping, my doula was reading me birth affirmations and up until that point, she had also been helping with different positions as we had tried to move the baby’s head down. I had my head up on the top of the bed facing down on the bed, my head on the top of the bed and she was just reading me birth affirmations and helping me through contractions. 

In hindsight, it was such a nice time. While I was in a lot of pain, I was enjoying it. I will say a lot of my pain was in my butt and back area. I think I was having back labor. My husband, I haven’t given him any credit yet, but he was amazing during birth and was really putting counterpressure on my back to help counteract the pain that I was feeling down there. It was just really, really, really good with how he worked with me and how he helped me to get through each contraction. 

That was most of the day. I woke up around 5:30 and I felt pubic pain again and then all of a sudden, it radiated up to the top of my abdomen under the top of my rib cage and it also radiated up into my clavicle. Immediately, I got on all fours and I was like, “I do not feel good.” It was interesting because earlier in the day when I felt that pubic pressure, I was questioning, “Oh, is this uterine rupture?” My doula said, “No. Usually, if you have a uterine rupture, one symptom is that you have pain up in your shoulders.” I was like, “Oh. I don’t have that” at the time when I first felt that pain, but they had attributed it to the malpositioning of the baby. 

Fast forward to when I said I was in a lot of pain and said, “I really don’t feel good,” I did have that pain in my shoulder. Immediately, I was like, “Oh my god. This is happening. This is rupture.” None of the midwives or nurses were saying that it was. I guess I learned during all of this that there aren’t a lot of easy ways to know if you have had a rupture. It was kind of up to me to communicate how I was feeling. 

Meagan: right. 

Julia: You know, because I could have gone along and ignored that pain or thought it was maybe related to contractions or the baby moving down, but it was a distinct pain. At that time, I also started throwing up, but it was at the time that could be transition. I think the nurses thought that was what it was. 

Meagan: Baby was doing okay at this point?

Julia: Yeah. Baby was great up until this point. Yeah. In all my notes, it said, “Fetal heart tones great, in the 140s,” but after I had that episode or series of episodes of vomiting, the fetal heart rate dropped. That’s when things started to get a little dicey or they were dicey. It had been very chill and just letting me do my thing up until that point, but then they started saying, “Okay. We need to start making some decisions because we are having some decels.” 

That was happening at the same time that iI was dealing with the pain. I forgot some of what happened next, but I had pretty good notes from my doctors that helped refresh my memory and one of the OBs came in. I guess baby had flipped OP, so one of the OBs came in and actually turned her to be in the right position, so that was great. 

At that point, I was complete. They gave me permission to start pushing. Meanwhile, I was still dealing with this pain. I had become, I think I just stopped talking about the pain as much thinking, “Oh maybe if I don’t talk about it, it’ll go away” or that I could still carry on with pushing and get this all over with and get my vaginal birth. 

They gave me a chance to push. I pushed for about an hour. I always hear how it feels like it was five minutes, but it was a full hour of pushing and it felt like it went by really quickly. I think during this time, they had inserted an IUPC, the intrauterine pressure catheter just as a way to also monitor how baby was doing and also to backup the pain I was feeling to see if anything was off, maybe they would pick it up with that because that’s the only true way to measure the strength of uterine contractions I guess. 

I started pushing. It was a really exciting time. I had all my team around me. I had my doula put washcloths on my forehead. I had my husband on one side. My mom was actually there. She was just coming to visit because the rule was that I could have two people at my bedside during birth, two extra support people. My mom was able to come and go to the hospital as she wanted to, but she couldn’t be at my bedside. 

She walked in at the exact same time that my pain started. It was probably traumatic for her to walk into that. I was screaming and vomiting. Everyone was caught up in that, so I think people forgot about the rule and just ignored it. She was able to be at my bedside while I was pushing too which was really cool because having given birth back in August 2020, I just had my husband which I’m grateful for, but I didn’t have my mom there and I’m very close with her, so it was just like a dream come true to have my mom there while I was pushing, my husband there, my doula, all of the midwives there encouraging me and cheering me on. 

They brought over a mirror and I got to see the baby’s head. They even brought the pull-up bar or whatever and wrapped a sheet around it and had me pull on that to help me. 

Meagan: They call that tug-of-war. That’s what it’s called. Tug-of-war.

Julia: Tug-of-war. Yeah. Yeah, so that was really great aside from the intense pain I was feeling. I really didn’t feel like I could push effectively. I was pushing, but I just couldn’t push how I thought I should because of this pain. I felt like if I pushed too hard, something was going to happen. Something was going to burst because I did have that in the back of my head that it was probably my uterus rupturing. 

Like I said, they trusted me to tell them to make the call if things weren’t feeling right. You know, of course, I had done all of this work, and yeah. I had done all of this work to prepare for a VBAC and I really, really wanted this to happen, so I had quieted down about the pain. They let me keep pushing, but then at some point, I was like, “What I’m doing is either putting my life and/or my daughter’s life at risk.” I felt kind of selfish continuing to push despite having this pain and despite pushing through what my body was telling me to do. I just knew something wasn’t right. 

They had, of course, brought up the concept of the C-section around this time, but they were giving me the chance to see if baby could progress further down. I was pushing and like I said, I didn’t feel effective enough and it was reflected because baby was not moving down that the rate that they would have hoped, and given that the baby was having heart decels, that was really concerning to them. 

I ultimately made the call for the C-section because I just couldn’t keep doing it. Like I said, I knew something wasn’t right and if I continued to push, I was probably putting myself or my daughter at risk. So that was around 6:30 and then once I made that call, everything was a flurry. I had a C-section before, so I know how things in the OR how busy it gets, and how quickly it gets busy, but I hadn’t had an emergency C-section yet, so that was just a new experience. 

It was a lot to go from pushing and everyone cheering me on to getting prepped for surgery, getting pulled this way and that way. I had said that my epidural wasn’t working very well. The OB that had since taken over now that it had taken a turn and it might be heading towards the surgery route, the midwives had to step back a little bit. The OBs were in the room and my OB had mentioned something about, “You might have to be put out.” I said, “I would go for the C-section, but I knew that if I had to go under general anesthesia, I was not going to be good mentally.” I did not want that. I did not want to be asleep when my daughter was born.

So I did say that. I did advocate for that. I said, “Can’t the epidural be converted to a spinal?” The anesthesiologist was already in there. She was optimistic about that. I forget why it might not have happened and why it’s hard to convert one to the other, but I knew that was a thing that could be done, so I pushed for that. I said multiple times, “I do not want to be put to sleep,” so I’m happy about that at least. 

And then, yeah. I forget if I walked or was wheeled to the OR, but I was in so much pain at that point. I couldn’t wait for the spinal because I knew the relief that it gives. You feel nothing from the neck down, so I couldn’t wait for the spinal. At that point, my doula said that she was going to leave. I was just about to step into the OR and she said she was going to leave. I don’t know what the rules were, but I believe that just my husband or one support person could go into the OR with me. 

My mom was still there at that time, so she could be waiting in recovery for me, so my doula said that she was going to leave but that she would check in with me the next day. Yeah. So I remember going into the OR and I had just done this less than two years ago so I remember the whole story of how it goes. You know, getting the spinal, then laying me down quickly, and doing the time out, then the surgery started. 

I wasn’t sad at that time. My focus had shifted to, “Is the baby going to be okay?” During surgery, at one point, they said, “Yeah. You had a rupture,” so I knew. 

Meagan: So you did? Did they confirm a full rupture? 

Julia: My doctor said it depends on who you ask. What ended up happening was not a complete or catastrophic rupture. 

Meagan: A dehiscence?  

Julia: Exactly, yeah. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Julia: A dehiscence. It was a 3-centimeter dehiscence that was not coming from my scar at all. It was in my uterine wall elsewhere down below, lower in my abdomen but not near my scar. There was amniotic fluid and meconium leaking out of it into my abdomen. Yeah. So all the while, I was still feeling this pain and this clavicle pain is what became my primary pain during all of it. 

During the surgery, I kept trying to move because I was in so much pain. The anesthesiologist kept saying, “You have to sit still. You have to sit still.” So that was very hard. 

So once I was in surgery, my focus shifted to my daughter. I had requested, as I was going into the OR, for a clear sheet. I was trying to fumble for ways that I could make it a gentle C-section as best as I could. I didn’t really prepare for that. I didn’t really put in my birth plan what to do in the chance of a C-section. So I asked for the clear drape, but I don’t think that my daughter was doing well enough when she came out to drop the drape. They never did and I’m assuming that’s why.

I’ve also gone through and read her notes and her APGAR score at one minute was a 4. She wasn’t doing so great. She had to be resuscitated somewhat, then by five minutes, her APGAR was a 9. They did say that her cord gasses were concerning, so they did end up having to take her to the special care nursery. But as you saw in the picture, I was able to be with my daughter for some time. I got a picture with her. She was there for a while. Again, it felt like I was in there for five minutes, but I was in there for probably an hour and a half. 

I had my husband go with her to the special care nursery once they said they had to take her. I was just there and yeah. As they were sewing me back up, they pressed on my uterus. I forget what they were doing but they pushed on my uterus. 

Meagan: Probably Credé. 

Julia: Yeah, is that right? Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah, they are checking for bleeding and clogs and those types of things. And probably fundal height. 

Julia: Yeah, they did something, but it made me scream from the pain that it caused. That was a little traumatic, but eventually, I was wheeled out to recovery and my mom was there. Luckily, my daughter only had to be in the special care nursery for two hours I believe. I was reunited with her in recovery and she latched right away and all that good stuff. I was very grateful for that. 

Shortly after, my OB who did the surgery came in and started talking to me about the rupture. She did call it dehiscence but she said in her book, any sort of tearing in the uterus is a rupture. She told me that I could get pregnant again, but I’d have to wait. I think at the time she said 18 months to conceive again and then she went on to say that a future pregnancy would be very closely monitored and that I would have to deliver between 36 and 37 weeks.

That was pretty heavy for me. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julia: And still something that I am still working through. I guess I feel most sad about the repercussions of trying for the VBAC on future pregnancies just because I tell myself that if I had gone for a repeat C-section, none of this would have happened and I could have gone forward and tried for a VBA2C. 

Yeah, but as I’ve thought about it, if I hadn’t tried, I would have been very disappointed. I had to try at that point, so I’m glad I got the labor experience that I had hoped for. Like I said, I got to that point where I was pushing. Everyone was cheering around me. I had my doula. I was doing the position changes and getting in the tub, birth affirmations, and all of that but I didn’t end up getting to deliver vaginally which was a big part of my goal and still something that I am working through. 

But after the fact, I did realize that my daughter could have been– things could have turned out worse for sure. I’m very grateful for her health and my health. I did have some complications after the birth. I had to go to the ER twice in the week after her birth because I had this debilitating pain in my ribs and still on my clavicles. They ended up telling me that it was just trapped air which sounds silly because of how much pain I was in. 

Meagan: No. It’s not silly. I had that with my second C-section. 

Julia: Really? 

Meagan: It’s no joke. 

Julia: Yeah. 

Meagan: I’m like, “I just want to poke a hole right here in my shoulder.” It was so bad. 

Julia: Yeah. Yeah. Whenever I moved, it was debilitating pain. It was crazy. It was trapped air and then also as I had mentioned, the meconium and amniotic fluid had gone up into my abdomen, so that was causing a lot of irritation. 

Yeah, so the first week of my daughter’s life, I was in and out of the ER. I had to have a CAT scan at one point and drink the contrast. They recommend not breastfeeding and pumping and dumping for 1-2 days after that so I did have to give her formula for a day. At the time, I was like, “Whatever. Everything’s gone not how I had planned, so whatever. I guess I’ll give her formula for a day.” But it was just a day. It is what it is. 

Meagan: Yeah, but it impacted you too so try not to just cut it back. It’s like whenever everyone’s like, “Well, yeah but your baby’s okay and you’re okay.” You’re like, “Yeah and I’m happy about that, but it doesn’t mean I’m not upset about the other things.” 

Julia: Right. 

Meagan: that’s one of the biggest things. It’s okay to be grateful for a safe mom and a safe baby and that everyone was okay, but it’s totally okay to grieve and to feel upset or even mad or sad. You have those emotions. If you don’t allow yourself to have those emotions, we can’t start healing, right? 

Julia: Right, right. Yeah. 

Meagan: So I want to talk about a couple of things. One is dehiscence. It’s not a word that a lot of people hear. Like you said, it depends on the provider. It depends on who you’re talking to because most providers correct you. It’s like, “If you had dehiscence, it was a rupture.” There are three layers to the uterus. If the uterine scar opens up partially, but yours didn’t, stretching the scar out can cause that bottom layer to tear open. Yours was in a different place, but it means it’s not through all of the layers. That’s what they categorize as a dehiscence where it was starting. 

I’m very proud of you for following your heart and following your mind because you were like, “Something’s off.” It’s so hard because you were in that so close moment of, “I can do this. The baby’s right there. I can see my baby’s head.” 

Julia: Yeah. 

Meagan: I can’t imagine the banter that went through your mind of, “I’m so close to the birth I want, but something’s not feeling right,” so be proud of yourself for really following that intuition. We talk about that a lot here, this intuition and the intuition is strong. It doesn’t usually bring fear. It brings facts. It’s like, “Yep. This sucks. This isn’t what I wanted, but I have to make this decision.” So yeah.

There’s a uterine window, uterine dehiscence, and then uterine rupture, a full rupture. Sometimes, even a window will be documented as a rupture on op reports. It’s really important to give it a look, but still, I mean, it happened and it sucks. It really sucks. It doesn’t happen often and we don’t know even why it happens, but it happens. I’m so glad that you guys are okay and I’m so glad that you were able to have your baby on your chest and be with your baby a little bit more. 

I also want to talk about how to cope when you don’t get your VBAC. It’s hard. It’s really hard. I can’t say that it’s easy. I can’t say that I didn’t cry my eyes out. Ugly cry. Sobbing. Even though my second C-section was a healing experience that I’m grateful for, I didn’t want that birth. That’s not the way that I wanted to give birth. I had to process it. 

Not getting your VBAC and processing it. What tips would you give? I’m sure you’re still healing and processing, but what tips would you give to our listeners who may not have ended in a VBAC or may not end in a VBAC for processing and working through that? 

Julia: Yeah. My biggest tip would go out to people who are trying for a VBAC right now would be just to definitely explore being okay with things not going to plan because I think that dictates how you can cope with things afterward. I think if I had gotten ahead of it a little bit and listened to more CBAC stories and written on my birth plan what I would want in the event of a C-section.

 It’s such a hard balance of wanting to stay positive and keeping those negative thoughts out of your mind but also not negating the fact that there is a chance because I definitely did not think I would have a uterine rupture. I just had a planned C-section for a breech baby, so I had no indication that I would have a rupture. 

I think just exploring that and not pushing away those feelings that come up when you see CBAC stories on the Facebook groups. I would even ignore those and just focus only on VBAC success stories. I think if I had surrounded myself with more of that and more of the alternative, I would have come out a little bit stronger. It still would have been hard and it is hard, but if I could go back in time, that’s what I would have done. 

For women who have had a CBAC and had their story about how things didn’t go according to plan, I would say to get help and not be afraid to get help. I’m lucky that the hospital I delivered at has a program to follow up with women who have had traumatic births and have a history of anxiety or other mental illness. I do have a history of anxiety so I was glad for a consult from a midwife who is also a therapist and works with therapists who will give you help to process your birth. It’s not just any old therapist. They are birth trauma specialists. That was really amazing.

In hindsight, it still doesn’t fix anything, but having someone there to support you is important. You can talk to your family about it, talk to your spouse about it, but they are not in your head and they don’t know really how truly, truly invested you were in it. You do get a lot of, “You should be happy.” 

One tip with working with mom therapists is every time you go to a negative thought about, “Oh, this is all my fault or I did this wrong and that’s why I ended up not having a VBAC,” to replace it with a positive thought. If you are blaming your body for not doing such and such, replace it with something that your body did do. For me, that was, “My body gave me a very strong message that things were not right.” 

That likely saved my daughter and my life, so when I go to think of those negative thoughts about what I could have done differently, I tried to replace them with that thought or something similar to how my body did work with me during that process. That’s been really helpful. I think that could be helpful for other women listening too. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. You know, we say it all too often. We hear it all too often. Failed VBAC. Failed. The word “failed”. I’m sorry, but we did not bleepity bleepity bleepity bleep fail. There is no failure in birth. It sucks that we have even incorporated that word and we use it as “failure to progress”. We use it in medical terms. “Failure to progress”, that’s what the medical providers use it as and we do. We reference that. 

But holy cow. There is no failing. It’s important to know that. Yes. For me, my body didn’t make it past 3 centimeters the first time, 1 centimeter the second time. My doctor even told me, “Yeah. You won’t be able to.” But that’s not true. I love that you said, “Fill my mind with something positive.” Look what it did do. Look what it did achieve. Look at what I achieved. Look at how hard of a thing I did. 

Julia: Yep, absolutely. 

Meagan: I love that. I love that so much. We are going to have a uterine rupture blog and how to cope if you don’t get your VBAC in the show notes but something else I really want to include in the show notes is your website. I love what you do and we will make sure to of course tag you and everything in the post but I love what you are doing. 

You are a registered dietician. A lot of people write us and they say, “I already had my baby. I’m 6 months postpartum. I want to start really working on this prep early for my future VBAC.” They’re like, “What can I do?” One of the number one things– there are so many things. Education, finding a supportive provider, and all of those things, but truly, it’s working on our whole self. That means mentally, too. We’ve got to work through previous traumas and fears and work through that, but also nutrition. Nutrition and exercise are so important. 

You help with pregnancy and postpartum. You talk about intuitive eating. You even help with fertility. So before we go, I would love for you to share because you do online stuff, right? 

Julia: Yep, yep. I see clients virtually all over the country. I’m based in Michigan right now, so a lot of my clients are from Michigan, but I see clients in other states as well. I work from an intuitive eating mindset trying not to focus on dieting and numbers and all of that, but trying to just as we’ve talked about in this episode, learn to trust our bodies when it comes to our hunger cues, eating, and how we like to move our bodies, finding movement that we genuinely enjoy, not exercise that we dread. 

Meagan: Yeah, yeah. 

Julia: That’s especially important during pregnancy when you really have to listen to your body, truly, and what it’s telling you. So yeah, that’s what I do. 

Meagan: Awesome. You even help with snack and meal plans. I mean, just as a busy mom in general, it’s really hard and when you are prepping and you’re like, “I’m raising 1, 2, 3, 4, or however many kids. I’m doing all of the other things around the house. I’m trying to educate myself for this VBAC.” You do all of these things. We sometimes forget to serve ourselves with our food, so I love that. If I could just have that plan, it would be so nice to know that this is what I’m going to eat today instead of, “Oh, I’ll just grab a quick snack that’s maybe not so healthy for me because I’m so hungry.” I love that you do that. 

We will make sure. It’s Bloom Nutrition. Bloom Nutrition, is that correct?

Julia: Yes, yes. Yep.

Meagan: We will make sure to put that in the show notes and make sure to tag you. So if you are listening, go hang out. Check out the show notes or go hang out on her page. Check her out on Instagram and Facebook. We’ll have all of that listed because truly, it is important. It is really, really important. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for sharing your story and for being vulnerable. 

Julia: Thank you so much. 

Meagan: I know that that had to have been hard in the moment, but I’m so proud of you and I really am so proud of you. I hope you know that you are a Woman of Strength. You are so strong and you are capable of so many things. Even though the birth didn’t happen the way you desired, I know that your daughter way down the road and any kids that you have in the future are going to love you and say, “Thank you for bringing me here today.” 

Julia: Yep, absolutely. Thank you so much. It’s been great to be here. An honor, truly. Thank you. 

Meagan: Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link. 

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