In Episode 442 of Hidden Forces, Demetri Kofinas speaks with Kurt Campbell and Rush Doshi. Kurt is the chairman and co-founder of The Asia Group and served as the United States Deputy Secretary of State in the Joe Biden administration and as the Indo-Pacific Coordinator from 2021 to 2024. Rush also served under the previous administration in his capacity as the Deputy Senior Director for China and Taiwan Affairs on the National Security Council and is the author of the extremely influential book, "The Long Game: China's Grand Strategy to Displace American Order."

Kofinas, Doshi, and Campbell spend the first hour of their conversation discussing the nature of China's rise and the challenges it poses to American power, both in terms of its economic, technological, and military development and the scale at which it operates. They also explore the limitations of a 'go-it-alone' approach to great power competition in this new century and the importance of achieving what Kurt and Rush call "allied scale"—the notion that America's decisive advantage comes from its network of alliances. This first hour also includes a series of historical deep dives ranging from the Cold War and the Anglo-German rivalry to America's own period of rapid industrial development beginning in the late 19th century, how American industrial capacity proved decisive in shaping the balance of power in the 20th, and the lessons that can be learned when applying this history to the Chinese economy today.

The second hour is devoted to a conversation about what "allied scale" would look like in practice, the steps that would need to be taken in order to get us there, and the obstacles the United States and its historical allies face in implementing this approach. Demetri also asks Kurt and Rush whether the United States may be exaggerating the threat that China poses at the expense of more important domestic priorities, and the consequences to the stamina of America's alliances and the durability of international peace and security if it is.

The three conclude the second hour with an important conversation about Taiwan, including military contingencies, the diplomacy of deterrence, the public support (or lack thereof) for any type of security commitments to Taipei, and whether the United States is even in a position to win a war in the Pacific.

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Producer & Host: Demetri Kofinas Editor & Engineer: Stylianos Nicolaou

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Episode Recorded on 09/23/2025