Trying to bring the best sparkly version of yourself to your own healing: It just doesn't work, says Katherine May. In this conversation, we return to May’s New York Times–bestselling book Wintering: The Power of Rest and Retreat in Difficult Times. It feels more relevant now than ever. We talk about finding a home for lingering, unexpressed grief and for vast, unsettled feelings. We talk about rest, creative work that we love, and things that make us laugh—and Katherine May always makes me laugh.

For the show notes, including links to May’s books and our previous podcast conversations together, head over to my Substack.

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