Work For Humans

In the modern workplace, constant change is the norm. One week, teams are navigating a new project management system; the next, they need to adapt to a new organizational chart. Even office layouts seem to change overnight to match the company’s latest pivot. While change may be the new normal, leadership expert Ashley Goodall questions its true benefits. In his latest book, The Problem with Change, he highlights the pitfalls of constant change and advocates for the pursuit of stability instead.

Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert, consultant, and author who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside out. He is the former Senior Vice President at Cisco and former Director and Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte.

In this episode, Dart and Ashley discuss:
- Cognitive and emotional effects of constant workplace change
- Consultants’ role in creating change
- The unique world of an executive
- Improving something versus changing everything
- Differences between fear and anxiety at work
- The psychological impacts of layoffs
- The fundamental task of leadership
- HR’s role as the bridge between leaders and the frontline
- Measuring performance without ratings
- And other topics…

Ashley Goodall is a leadership expert, consultant, and author who has spent his career exploring large organizations from the inside out. Ashley most recently served as former Senior Vice President at Cisco, where he led organizations focused on leadership, teams, and research. Prior to Cisco, he also served as Director and Chief Learning Officer at Deloitte.

Ashley’s books include Nine Lies About Work and The Problem with Change, the former of which was selected as one of Amazon’s best business and leadership books during its release year. Ashley has also written for Harvard Business Review, including the most popular article of 2019, “The Feedback Fallacy.” He holds his BA in Music from the University of Oxford and his MBA from the Columbia Business School.

Resources mentioned:
The Problem with Change, by Ashley Goodall: https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Change-Essential-Nature-Performance/dp/0316560278
The Safety Signal Hypothesis by Martin Seligman and Yitzchak Binik: https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9781003150404-7/safety-signal-hypothesis-martin-seligman-yitzchak-binik
The Anatomy of Genres, by John Truby: https://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Genres-Story-Forms-Explain/dp/0374539227

Connect with Ashley:
www.AshleyGoodall.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleygoodall/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Industrial capitalism has treated workers like marionettes breaking down work into discreet, disconnected, repeatable actions. It loves uniformity and people who do what they're told. Seth Godin’s new book, The Song of Significance,  challenges us to break free of these limiting mental models, many of which are still baked into how we work.

Seth Godin is an author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert whose past clients include AOL, Microsoft, Penguin, and Random House. His 20 bestselling books, Ted Talks, personal blog, and altMBA program have empowered millions of professionals to drive meaningful change at work.

In this episode, Dart and Seth discuss:
- The Song of Significance
- Choosing and creating jobs of value instead of production
- Eliminating drudgery from work
- How the industrial revolution shaped work, education, and society
- The power of small connections and communities in marketing
- False proxies in the hiring process
- The hiring method that lowers turnover and increases productivity
- Criticizing work instead of the worker
- And other topics…

Seth Godin is a highly influential author, entrepreneur, and marketing expert whose achievements have transformed how we think about business and personal development. His company, Yoyodyne, created the first ethical commercial email and was later sold to Yahoo!, where Seth became the VP of Direct Marketing. He later founded several other successful companies, working with clients such as AOL, Microsoft, Penguin, and Random House.

Seth has written 20 bestselling books translated into more than 35 languages, including Permission Marketing, Purple Cow, and, most recently, The Song of Significance. His TED Talks and personal blog have amassed millions of views, and his online workshop, altMBA, has empowered thousands of professionals to drive meaningful change in their industries. He is also the founding editor of The Carbon Almanac, a global almanac on climate created by hundreds of volunteers from over 40 countries.

Resources Mentioned:
The Song of Significance, by Seth Godin: https://www.amazon.com/Song-Significance-New-Manifesto-Teams/dp/0593715543
The Ministry for the Future, by Kim Stanley Robinson: https://www.amazon.com/Ministry-Future-Kim-Stanley-Robinson/dp/0316300136
The Carbon Almanac, by Seth Godin and The Carbon Almanac Network: https://www.amazon.com/Carbon-Almanac-Its-Not-Late/dp/B09XBYL7J3

Connect with Seth:
Blog: https://seths.blog/
AI Bot: https://seths.blog/bot/
Seth’s latest book: https://seths.blog/song/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

The last two financial crises resulted in recessions, financial market instability, and high unemployment rates, but one group of companies proved resilient. Benefit Corporations – businesses that balance profit with social and environmental impact – experienced crisis attrition rates of less than 5%. Bart Houlahan, a co-founder of B Lab, joins Work for Humans to share why companies that invest in people outperform in their field.

Bart Houlahan is Partner at Irrational Capital, the first firm to quantitatively measure the impact of corporate culture on a company’s stock price. He is also co-founder of B Lab, a nonprofit organization that seeks to solve social and environmental problems while driving profitability. Currently, there are over 6,000 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in 80+ countries.

In this episode, Dart and Bart discuss:
- The foundation and purpose behind Irrational Capital
- Why companies that treat people well outperform
- Corporate culture as a new investment factor
- Bart’s take on the rise and fall of AND 1
- The 3 main components of a Benefit Corporation
- How B Corps establish strong governance
- The long-term benefits of stakeholder capitalism
- And other topics…

Bart Houlahan is Partner at Irrational Capital and one of the co-founders of B Lab, a nonprofit organization that seeks to solve social and environmental problems while driving profitability. Currently, there are over 6,000 certified B Corporations across 150 industries in over 80 countries. Prior to B Lab, Bart was president at AND 1, where he helped to finance, operate, and scale the business to $250 MM in brand revenues while focusing on company values and corporate culture.

Bart is a graduate of Stanford University. During his career, he was also an investment banker with Stonebridge Associated, BNY Associates, and Prudential-Bache Securities. Bart is a Henry Crown Fellow of the Aspen Institute and serves as an Advisory Board Member of the Fuqua Center for the Advancement of Social Entrepreneurship (CASE), the Wharton Impact Investing Initiative, and the G8 Impact Measurement Working Group.

Connect with Bart:
B Lab: www.bcorporation.net
Irrational Capital: www.irrational.capital 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Most of us have preconceived notions about work, workers and employment that are so fundamental to how we think that we don’t notice them.  The thing is, such preconceptions shape how large parts of society understand and solve problems. So when a problem is poorly framed, some potentially great solutions can’t be heard.  In a previous episode we heard from Nathanial Kendall Taylor, CEO of the Frameworks Institute describing how his company helps non profits reframe problems in order to transform public thinking and enact social change. 

The Frameworks Institute has just released initial findings on a multi year initiative designed to change the narrative on work and labor. Today we are talking to Director of Research Bec Sanderson who led the effort to learn more about existing frames of work, and ways in which we might disrupt them to bring forward new frames and open doors to new solutions. 

Bec Sanderson serves as Director of Research at FrameWorks Institute. Her research has been featured in Frontiers in Psychology, The Guardian, Vice, and The Psychologist magazine.

In this episode, Dart and Bec discuss:
- How to reframe a concept to create new outcomes
- Tracking American thoughts on the economy and work
- Labor system design issues
- The nature of recessive and dominant mindsets
- Finding the root cause of a perspective
- Alternative work systems and feasible ways to get there
- Competitive framing versus solidarity framing
- Whether or not we have to work to survive
- And other topics…

Rebecca Sanderson is a seasoned researcher and writer, currently serving as Director of Research at FrameWorks Institute. With over a decade of experience in framing research, Bec has led mixed-methods research on climate justice, anti-racism, equality, values, and – more recently – labor systems. Her work has been featured in Frontiers in Psychology, The Guardian, Vice, and The Psychologist magazine. Bec holds her MA in Psychology and Philosophy from the University of Edinburgh.

Resources mentioned:
Work Won’t Love You Back, by Sarah Jaffe: https://www.amazon.com/Work-Wont-Love-You-Back/dp/1568589395

Connect with Bec:
https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/person/bec-sanderson/
https://www.frameworksinstitute.org/work-shift-landing-page/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Christine Renaud always felt destined to be a teacher, but after training in education, she came to a disturbing realization – traditional schools were not created to develop students effectively. Determined to better support students’ learning, growth, and happiness, Christine founded Braindate, a pioneering technology company that has created transformative conversations and experiences for over a million participants in 100 countries.

Christine is a distinguished keynote speaker, Startup Canada’s “Entrepreneur of the Year,” and the CEO and founder of Braindate. Using a background in education and a Master’s education from Harvard, she aims to create innovative technologies, spaces, and books that facilitate meaningful learning.

In this episode, Dart and Christine discuss:
- Unschooling, home-schooling, and alternative education
- The philosophy and origins of Braindate
- The relationship between Anarchism and education
- Benefits of peer-to-peer learning
- Using deep networking in different social contexts
- Creating a business that reflects your ideals
- Hurdles to collaborative learning
- And other topics…

Christine Renaud is the CEO and founder of Braindate, a pioneering technology company that has created transformative conversations and experiences for over a million participants in 100 countries. Using her background in education and Master’s education at Harvard, she has dedicated her career to creating innovative technologies, spaces, and books that facilitate meaningful learning.

A passionate advocate for women in leadership and technology, Christine has been recognized as one of the "Most Innovative People in the Events Industry" by Bizbash, "Entrepreneur of the Year" by Startup Canada, and among the "Canadian Inspiring Fifty." She is also a sought-after keynote speaker, presenting at international events such as IBTM World (Barcelona, Spain), the World Innovation Summit in Education (Doha, Qatar), Morgan Stanley Women’s Leadership Summit (Chicago, USA), and Tech Open Air (Berlin, Germany).

Connect with Christine:
www.Braindate.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinerenaud 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Despite their revolutionary zeal, followers of Marx have failed to create real economic democracies, frequently ending up with one-party systems that mirror the capitalist structures they sought to overthrow. A compelling alternative exists: a modern vision for economic democracy and employee-owned cooperatives. By examining the historical missteps and unveiling innovative approaches, we discover how true democratic firms can thrive today.

David Ellerman is a distinguished economist, philosopher, and author with a career focused on the crossroads of economics, philosophy, and organizational theory. He has held prominent roles, such as an economic advisor at the World Bank, where he played a key role in shaping development policy and institutional reforms. Before his time at the World Bank, David was a visiting scholar at the University of California, Riverside, and lectured at Boston University.

In this episode, Dart and David discuss:
- The historical context of labor contracts and alienation
- Differences between alienable and inalienable rights
- The link between performance management systems and American slavery
- The flawed basis of Marxist and traditional economic theories
- Real-world examples of democratic firms and worker cooperatives
- The evolution and impact of ESOPs (Employee Stock Ownership Plans)
- The psychological cost of layoffs in an organization
- The role of economic theories in shaping organizational practices
- And other topics…

David Ellerman is a renowned economist, philosopher, and author who has dedicated his career to exploring the intersections of economics, philosophy, and organizational theory. David has held influential positions, including serving as an economic advisor at the World Bank, where he contributed to development policy and institutional reforms. Prior to his tenure at the World Bank, he also served as a visiting scholar at the University of California, Riverside, and as a lecturer at Boston University.

David's books include Helping People Help Themselves and The Democratic Worker-Owned Firm, both of which have been highly regarded in the fields of economics and organizational theory. He has also written extensively for academic journals and popular outlets, contributing to the discourse on economic development, property theory, and worker ownership. David holds his BA in Mathematics from MIT and his PhD in Economics from Boston University.

Resources mentioned:
Helping People Help Themselves by David Ellerman: https://www.amazon.com/Helping-People-Help-Themselves-Alternative-ebook/dp/B071FH7C9Y/
The Democratic Worker-Owned Firm by David Ellerman: https://www.amazon.com/Democratic-Worker-Owned-Firm-Routledge-Revivals/dp/1138892653/
Mondragon Corporation: https://www.mondragon-corporation.com/en/
Anna's Archive: https://annas-archive.gs/?

Connect with David:
Website: https://www.ellerman.org/

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Kentaro Toyama spent a decade designing technologies to fight global poverty and improve education and health. As co-founder of Microsoft Research India lab, he made a troubling discovery – innovative technologies can’t create change on their own. Realizing that social progress depends more on people than on the technology they use, Kentaro became a self-proclaimed “geek heretic” who now teaches others the importance of putting people over tech.

Kentaro Toyama is W.K. Kellogg Professor of Community Information at the University of Michigan, a fellow of the Dalai Lama Center at MIT, and author of Geek Heresy. Kentaro is also the co-founder of Microsoft Research India, where he helped grow the lab into 60 full-time research staff.

In this episode, Dart and Kentaro discuss:
- Why technology needs a human touch to succeed
- Kentaro’s leadership at Microsoft Research India
- The 10 fallacies of technology
- Why the most important areas of focus are unmeasurable
- The pitfalls of focusing on the end-goal
- How to create societal change
- Innovation versus tried-and-true approaches
- The law of amplification
- 3 elements of intrinsic growth
- And other topics…

Kentaro Toyama is W.K. Kellogg Professor of Community Information at the University of Michigan School of Information, a fellow of the Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at MIT, and author of Geek Heresy: Rescuing Social Change from the Cult of Technology. Before moving to Michigan, Kentaro co-founded Microsoft Research India, where he helped grow the lab into 60 full-time research staff.

Kentaro received his PhD in Computer Science from Yale and his bachelors in mathematics from Harvard University. He went on to establish the Technology for Emerging Markets research group, which investigates how the world’s poorest communities interact with technology and ways to support socioeconomic development. Kentaro is also a former researcher for UC Berkeley and former co-editor-in-chief of the Information Technologies and International Development journal.

Resources mentioned:
Geek Heresy, by Kentaro Toyama: https://www.amazon.com/Geek-Heresy-Rescuing-Social-Technology/dp/161039528X

Connect with Kentaro:
www.kentarotoyama.org 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Work for Humans wants to understand what people want from work – but every perspective is different. One person’s dream job is another person’s nightmare, making it challenging to define fulfilling work. Derek Sivers captures this struggle in his book, How to Live, which presents 27 drastically different yet equally valid life views. Through his work, Derek guides others in shaping their own meaningful and unique lives.

Derek Sivers is an author, entrepreneur, and speaker known for founding CD Baby, the largest seller of independent music of its time. After selling CD Baby for $22 million in 2008 and donating all the money to charity, Derek began writing and sharing his insights on business, creativity, and living a fulfilling life.

In this episode, Dart and Derek discuss:
- How our beliefs direct our actions
- The 27 ways to live from Derek’s book
-  Crafting a company’s personality
- Using beliefs as a listening tool at work
- Derek’s biggest surprise in writing How to Live
- Nature vs. nurture
- Data models as philosophical experiences
- And other topics…

Derek Sivers is an author, entrepreneur, and speaker known for founding CD Baby, once the largest seller of independent music. Derek sold CD Baby for $22M in 2008 and donated all the money to charity, transitioning to writing and sharing insights on business, creativity, and personal development. His books, such as How to Live, offer practical advice and philosophical reflections on living a meaningful life. His latest book, Useful Not True, will be released in 2024.

Resources mentioned:
How to Live, by Derek Sivers: https://www.amazon.com/How-Live-Conflicting-Answers-Question/dp/B09JBMN6Q7
Useful Not True, by Derek Sivers: https://sive.rs/u
“50 Conversations in Bangalore and Chennai,” by Derek Sivers: https://sive.rs/meet-chbg

Connect with Derek:
https://sive.rs/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Paul Zak has been on a quest for two decades to understand the neuroscience of human connection, human happiness, and effective teamwork. From the Pentagon to Fortune 500 boardrooms to the rainforest of Papua New Guinea, Paul’s research has now led him to found Immersion Neuroscience, the first company to track and measure real-time immersion in experiences. His latest book, Immersion, uses 50,000 brain measurements to show readers how to create high-impact marketing, entertainment, training, customer experiences, and employee experiences.

Paul J. Zak is an acclaimed professor, speaker, and neuroscientist who is ranked in the top 0.3% of most-cited scientists worldwide. During his career, he started the interdisciplinary fields of neuroeconomics, neuromanagement, and neuromarketing. Paul has written three general audience books, is a 5-time TED speaker with over two million views, and has spoken to audiences across 30 countries, including recent talks at NATO Supreme Headquarters, Google, Facebook, and Harvard University.

In this episode, Dart and Paul discuss:
- What it means to be immersed in your work experience
- Work as a social-emotional hub
- How oxytocin creates trust, empathy, and care at work
- 2 things you need to create an extraordinary experience
- The research behind effective advertising
- Neuromanagement
- The connection between autonomy, mastery, and job satisfaction
- Scientific reasons why dogs are better than cats
- And other topics…

Paul J. Zak is an acclaimed professor, speaker, and neuroscientist who is ranked in the top 0.3% of most-cited scientists with over 180 published papers and more than 19,000 citations to his research. His two decades of research have taken him from the Pentagon to Fortune 500 boardrooms to the rainforest of Papua New Guinea. During his career, he has also started several interdisciplinary fields including neuroeconomics, neuromanagement, and neuromarketing. He has written three general audience books, is a 5-time TED speaker with over two million views, and has spoken to audiences across 30 countries.

Paul is the founder of Immersion Neuroscience, the first company to track and measure immersion in experiences in real time. His latest book, Immersion, identifies the neurologic basis for extraordinary experiences and uses 50,000 brain measurements to show readers how to create high-impact marketing, entertainment, training, customer experiences, and employee experiences.

Paul holds his doctorate in economics from the University of Pennsylvania and completed post-doctoral training in neuroimaging at Harvard University. He has taught at Caltech, Arizona State University, UC Riverside, and USC Law and is a current professor at Claremont Graduate University.

Resources mentioned:
Immersion, by Paul J. Zak: https://www.amazon.com/Immersion-Science-Extraordinary-Source-Happiness/dp/1544531958

Connect with Paul:
https://www.getimmersion.com/
https://pauljzak.com/ 

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.

Matt Higgins was a struggling teen, working at McDonald’s for $3.75/hr to put food on the table for his ailing mother. When he saw the pay increase offered to college students, he decided to do something unorthodox; he dropped out of high school, got his GED, and enrolled in college. Adults tried to talk him out of it, but Matt knew this was the right choice for him.

This was Matt's first "burn the boats" moment, but it wasn't his last. In fact, Matt believes this burn-the-boats mindset has defined his career, and has led him to places like Shark Tank, Harvard Business School, and beyond. Today, he joins us on Work For Humans to discuss the Burn the Boats philosophy.

Matt is the co-founder and CEO of RSE Ventures, a private equity firm that incubates and invests in enterprises like the International Champions Cup, RESY, and the Drone Racing League. He is the recipient of the Ellis Island Medal of Honor, a current executive fellow at Harvard Business School, and the author of Burn the Boats.

In this episode, Dart and Matt discuss:
- How backup plans subvert our potential
- Emotional intelligence and intuition in decision-making
- Using anxiety to drive us
- Assessing opportunity costs
- Extracting value from negative situations
- Acting early and taking risks for greater results
- Elon Musk and Twitter
- And other topics…

Matt Higgins is an operator, investor, business builder, and co-founder and CEO of RSE Ventures. Matt Began his career as the youngest press secretary in New York City, later becoming an executive for the New York Jets and the Miami Dolphins. As CEO of RSE Ventures, Matt and co-founder Stephen Ross have helped establish enterprises like the International Champions Cup, RESY, and the Drone Racing League.

Matt received his bachelor’s degree from Queens College and his JD from Fordham University. He was a guest shark on ABC’s Shark Tank and is an executive fellow at Harvard Business School. In 2019, Matt received the Ellis Island Medal of Honor for making it his mission to share his wealth of knowledge with those less fortunate. Matt recently published his first book, Burn the Boats, to continue to inspire others to toss Plan B overboard and go all in on Plan A.

Resources Mentioned:
Burn the Boats, by Matt Higgins: https://www.amazon.com/Burn-Boats-Overboard-Unleash-Potential/dp/006308886X  

Connect with Matt:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-higgins-rse/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mhiggins/?hl=en
www.BurntheBoatsBook.co

Work with Dart:
Dart is the CEO and co-founder of the work design firm 11fold. Build work that makes employees feel alive, connected to their work, and focused on what’s most important to the business. Book a call at 11fold.com.