Katie talks to Emi, a local friend who is also a 3!

We talk about what it feels like to present only your best self, slowing down, and the benefits of joining enneagram spaces.

You can find all of Saleh Vallander's books : HERE

In this episode of Inside Story, host Kristin Messegee sits down with Saleh Vallander—Sweden-based doctor, meditation teacher, and Enneagram author—for a rich, spacious conversation on Enneagram Type Five from the inside out.

Saleh shares how he discovered the Enneagram on a meditation retreat in 2017, why a spiritual frame matters to him, and how storytelling, metaphor, and nonverbal language can sometimes reveal a type more accurately than intellectual description. Kristin and Saleh explore the Five’s relationship to “knowing”—not as trivia-collecting, but as a visceral hunger to uncover what’s underneath things—and the challenge of trying to isolate “type” from other parts of personality (including cognitive styles and tritype dynamics).

From there, the conversation moves into the heart of Saleh's work and his book The Nine Barriers to the Heart: the way each type loses contact with essential qualities, chases a partial truth, and eventually discovers that the deepest change isn’t self-improvement—it’s acceptance. Together they name what Fives often avoid (emptiness), how that emptiness can feel like an existential threat, and why non-attachment isn’t an idealized spiritual pose but the byproduct of learning to be with what you’ve been running from.

Along the way, you’ll hear striking distinctions—Five “isolation” versus Four “estrangement,” how withdrawal can look polite on the outside while fear hides underneath, and why the quest for happiness can become its own mirage when it’s driven by the “miserable self.” If you’re a Five, love a Five, or want a more honest conversation about spiritual work that doesn’t bypass suffering, this one lands deep.

Jeff and TJ continue their conversation with Russ Hudson by pressing into the lived difference between low-side stress and the “secret ingredient” hidden inside our inner lines—what we avoid is often what we need. Russ unpacks how the Levels of Development change everything: when we slide down the “thermometer,” our stress point can feel like self-abandonment; but when we move with awareness, the same line can become medicine—an entry into shadow, wholeness, and a fuller human life.

From there, Russ introduces “shunting”—the way overwhelm can push us to camp out at a stress point to stop a deeper collapse—and reframes the inner lines as adaptive, liberating pathways rather than personality trivia. The conversation turns toward the three centers(head, heart, body), why “getting more of a center” isn’t about doing more thinking or more action, and why presence isn’t a mood—it’s the capacity to be awake to whatever is true.

They also tackle a live tension in the modern Enneagram world: pushback against “prescribing health,” the difference between information and transformation, and why real development takes time, experience, and patience. Russ shares wisdom on when people (especially teenagers) may or may not be ready for Enneagram work, why he no longer tells people their type, and how presence keeps us from using the system to control ourselves—or others.

The episode closes with Russ previewing upcoming trainings (including instincts and a course on freedom), plus a heartfelt exchange on what mature Enneagram teaching looks like: humility, openness, and a lifelong willingness to keep learning.

Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com

Katie talks to BJ about 2ness! We discuss why being a male 2 can make you feel different from your friends, the deep wish to be invited into someone's life, and how pride can worm its way into a 2's life without warning.

Find BJ on Instagram at @monty_queso

Find BJ on Blue Sky at @montyqueso.bsky.social

Our full catalogue of Rewired Episodes are at : www.aroundthecircle.org

We land the plane on our stance series by wrestling with the language for Fours, Fives, and Nines. 

Starting with Karen Horney’s “detached,” David Daniels’ “receptive/internalizing,” Suzanne Stabile’s “withdrawn,” and Joey Schewee’s “solitary,” they trace the history of stance, sift the pros and cons of each term, and ultimately make a case for why “withdrawn” still does the best work.

Along the way they explore how 4s, 5s, and 9s use imagination, creativity, and internal processing to get what they want, why “doing repression” has to stay central, and how stance fits into Jeff’s bigger map: center → stance → affect → processing center in a looping feedback cycle. If you’re a 4, 5, or 9 (or love one), this episode will give you sharper language for what’s happening inside when you “check out,” and why that inner move matters so much for real-world action.

On this episode of Scientific Enneagram, Danielle—engineer, Type 9, and endlessly curious mind—kicks off a foundational series by tracing the (surprisingly recent) history of psychology and asking a practical question: where does the Enneagram fit when we try to study people with scientific rigor?

Starting with early introspection and its “observer problem,” Danielle walks through the major movements that shaped modern psychology: psychoanalysis (and its depth—and unfalsifiability), behaviorism (and its measurable clarity—at the cost of inner life), and cognitivism (the shift that re-centers internal processes, from CBT’s thoughts-feelings-actions triangle to schema theory and maladaptive “software” running on the brain’s “hardware”).

Along the way, she connects these frameworks to the Enneagram’s strengths and limitations—especially why the Enneagram aligns more naturally with modalities that prize inner motive and subconscious drivers, and why that makes it difficult to study quantitatively. Is the Enneagram destined to remain mostly qualitative? Maybe. But Danielle isn’t ready to stop asking better questions—or hunting for better tools.

If you have corrections, follow-up questions, or ideas for future episodes, email [email protected] or DM @scientificenneagram on Instagram.

Russ Hudson joins Jeff Cook and TJ Wilson for a long-awaited conversation celebrating The Wisdom of the Enneagram—and, in particular, the “triads” framework that has shaped so much of modern Enneagram language and practice.

Jeff calls the book a generational achievement and says (without exaggeration) that much of his own work has felt like “footnotes” to its conceptual architecture—especially Chapter Five.

From there, the episode turns into what it feels like when real discovery happens: Russ reflects on what he’s learned since Wisdom was published, what didn’t make it into the final manuscript, and why triads still offer layer after layer of insight when you approach them with curiosity rather than certainty.

Toward the end, Russ shares what he’s teaching next—including an upcoming Instincts course and a coaching-oriented course exploring freedom (not “robot-to-robot” tactics, but human-to-human work). If you love triads, centers, stance, spiritual practice, and the kind of Enneagram conversation that feels alive—this one is for you. Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com

Continuing our journey through 1ness, Katie talks to Olivia this week.

We discuss anxiety (and why it doesn’t always apply to all reactive types), trusting yourself, and what it means to experience true intuition.

If you are interested in applying to be guest : GO HERE

Every Tuesday at www.aroundthecircle.org we release a "Rewired" episode for all members.

This is an example of our most recent discussion on stance.

In this Rewired episode, Jeff and Katie keep their stance series rolling and turn the spotlight on the “aggressive/assertive/independent” triad—Threes, Sevens, and Eights.

They trace where the classic stance language came from Karen Horney, Riso & Hudson, Suzanne Stabile, and Joey Schewee. Along the way they name what stance actually is: your reference point (internal / external / independent), your social strategy for getting what you want, your time-orientation, and your repressed center. They contrast the “independent” stance with the “reactive” stance, talk about how often 3s, 7s, and 8s simply aren’t thinking about you (for better and worse), and defend Eights from the caricature of being perpetually angry or combative.

The back half of the conversation gets practical: how do independent types begin doing real stance work? What does it feel like to bring up your repressed feeling center (spoiler: slower, more boring, and more alive)? If you’re a 3, 7, or 8—or you love one—this episode will give you language, compassion, and concrete direction for growth.

Every Tuesday at www.aroundthecircle.org we release a "Rewired" episode for all members.

This is an example of our most recent discussion on stance. We dive into a big term debate in Enneagram world: what do we actually call the stance of Ones, Twos, and Sixes? Are they compliant, dependent, responsive, or reactive? Katie comes in ready to retire some terms altogether, Jeff brings the history from Horney, Riso–Hudson, Palmer, Chestnut, and Naranjo, and together they pull the whole thing apart—from theory to lived experience.

Along the way, they tease out why “compliant” and “dependent” miss something essential, how thinking repression really shows up in 1–2–6 land, and why reactive may be the most honest (even if it stings a bit). They also talk about the danger of naming only behavior instead of underlying motive, why Ones are not nearly as “certain” internally as they look, and how terminology actually shapes people’s ability to see themselves clearly.

In this conversation:

• A quick history of stances: moving toward, against, and away

• Why “compliant” doesn’t describe Ones, Twos, and Sixes as well as we think

• The case for “dependent” and why it still falls short

• Reacting vs responding: what thinking repression really feels like on the ground

• How language choices impact coaching, corporate work, and self-understanding

• Where Jeff and Katie land—for now—on what we should call the 1–2–6 stance