Fun fact: this episode exists thanks to a few pints and a little Radical Candor in the wild. Our audio engineer Nick met today’s guest, Chloé van Bergen, VP of Operations at Secretly Group, at his brother’s stag do. One loud London pub and an honest conversation later—we knew we had to get her on the show. Join Kim and Amy for a candid conversation with Chloé about what it really takes to lead change inside a legacy-driven music company. She gets real about navigating unionization, confronting indifference, and learning—sometimes the hard way—that being “nice” isn’t the same as being kind. From UK-style politeness to Dutch directness, Chloé shares what worked (and what didn’t) when rolling out Radical Candor across continents. Spoiler: no sugarcoating here — just straight up kind and clear.

Get all of the show notes at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠RadicalCandor.com/podcast⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Episode Links:

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Chapters:

(00:00:00) Introduction

Kim and Amy introduce Chloé van Bergen, VP of Operations at Secretly Group.

(00:01:04) From Stag Do to Podcast Guest

How a chance meeting at a UK pub led to Chloé joining the show.

(00:05:25) What Is Secretly Group?

The structure, history, and collaborative ethos of Secretly Group.

(00:09:05) Discovering Radical Candor

Being introduced to Radical Candor and the mindset shift it inspired.

(00:10:42) Struggling with Direct Feedback

Using Radical Candor to move past the fear of being too blunt.

(00:12:43) Giving Feedback Across Borders

Navigating cultural differences in feedback styles across countries.

(00:17:25) Practicing Vulnerability Through Action

Building confidence by starting to speak up, one moment at a time.

(00:20:07) Pandemic Leadership & Operational Overhaul

Navigating starting during COVID and legacy infrastructures.

(00:25:13) Rockstar vs. Superstar: Rethinking Growth

Learning not everyone wants to climb—some excel where they are.

(00:29:50) Unionization During COVID

How a union announcement led to a company-wide listening reset.

(00:34:57) Adapting to AI & Industry Shifts

Staying open by staying honest—even without having all the answers.

(00:36:28) Kind ≠ Nice: Facing Hard Truths

How kindness isn’t niceness—and can slow down change.

(00:39:33) Chloé’s Radical Candor Tip

Having the courage to say the thing, even if it feels uncomfortable.

(00:42:46) Conclusion

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