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What is your body saying when you’re not speaking, and how could it be holding you back? In this episode, world-renowned body language expert Mark Bowden explains how nonverbal signals impact trust, credibility, and executive presence. Discover how our brains instinctively scan for safety cues, and why understanding body language is critical for anyone who leads, presents, or communicates under pressure.
“What instantly comes to your mind when you see me cross my arms?”
Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk:
Mark Bowden:
AW:
MB:
AW: Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, and he’s been on my radar for a while. When we finally connected for this interview, we discovered that we live and work near each other. What a coincidence! We both share a passion for helping others communicate more effectively.
But I have to say: Mark blew my mind.
This conversation took twists and turns I didn’t see coming. So buckle up. You’re about to learn a ton about body language, perception, credibility, and so much more.
Welcome to the Talk About Talk Podcast!
In this episode, you’ll hear my conversation with body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author Mark Bowden. You’ll learn the one key thing you need to focus on to instantly improve your body language, and your communication overall. You’ll also gain insight into how our motivations, including our primal survival instincts, shape our perceptions of others, especially when it comes to interpreting body language. And finally, we’ll bust a few body language myths that you’ve probably accepted as truth…until now.
If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. I’m so glad you’re here. And if you’re new to Talk About Talk, welcome! Please subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice (Apple, Spotify, or YouTube), where you can actually see me and Mark in action. Subscribing ensures you never miss an episode and that you receive ongoing communication coaching from me every two weeks.
We cover topics like:
You can also find free learning resources, coaching services, and more on the Talk About Talk website: talkabouttalk.com.
First, I’ll introduce Mark, then we’ll dive into our interview. Afterward, I’ll summarize with three key learnings that I hope you’ll take away. You don’t need to take notes. Just keep doing whatever you’re doing: walking, driving, lounging on the couch. I’ve got you covered. And of course, you can always reference the show notes in your podcast app for more details.
Mark Bowden is a globally recognized authority on body language. He’s been named the No. 1 Body Language Professional in the world multiple times by Global Gurus.
His unique GesturePlane™ system of nonverbal communication empowers audiences to use body language to stand out, build trust, and gain credibility.
Mark is the founder of TRUTHPLANE®, a communication training company that serves major organizations including Zoom, Shopify, Real Madrid, Toyota, the U.S. Army, and NATO. He’s also worked with G7 prime ministers and business leaders worldwide.
He’s a bestselling author, a popular instructor in Canada’s top-ranked EMBA program at the Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and the current President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada.
You might’ve seen Mark on the Dr. Phil Show, CNN, CBS, or Global News, or watched his TEDx talk, “The Importance of Being In-Authentic,” which has reached tens of millions of viewers. He’s also a co-host of the YouTube hit The Behavior Panel, which has garnered more than 75 million views.
Thank you so much for being here today, Mark, to talk with me, and the Talk About Talk listeners, about body language.
MB:
AW:
MB:
Well, we could come up with all kinds of explanations that aren’t really true. But the reality is, we form (and continue to form) judgments based mostly on how people behave in front of us. What their face is doing. What their body is doing. What their hands are doing. How they’re dressed. The environment they’re in.
We judge partly by vocal tone, but we barely judge each other on what’s actually said. In fact, we often just make up what we think someone said based on how they behaved. So if you change, or more importantly, choose, your behaviors, you stand a much better chance of shaping how someone judges you. That influences how they interpret what you’ve said and even what they imagine you said.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
My clients say the same thing. As soon as we talk about body language, especially when they’re on stage or leading a meeting, it’s like, “Where do I look? What do I do with my hands?” So what should executives prioritize when it comes to body language and being perceived as credible leaders?
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
When you’re under pressure and still use open-palm gestures at navel height, you create what I call a “cascade effect.” It triggers certain behaviors in your audience, and those behaviors influence the rest of the room.
AW:
MB:
But it’s not just the hands. The navel area represents the body’s center of gravity. It reveals your true intention. People say, “Watch their feet.” No, watch where their center of gravity is going. If the torso doesn’t move, the feet don’t matter.
This area here (your stomach, your navel) is incredibly vulnerable. We haven’t evolved to have ribs protecting it all the way down. Why? Because our ancestors needed to be able to duck, run, and twist quickly to survive. If we had a rigid ribcage extending all the way down, our agility would be compromised.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
That’s why I created a simple three-point scan:
Now I’ll say “Open palms at navel height.” What do you think about that framework?
MB:
That’s why I try to get clients down to just one behavior. When they’re under pressure, dealing with a big presentation or unexpected scrutiny, they can’t manage everything. So I say, “Just do the one thing that will create a cascade effect.”
Forget what you’re feeling. I don’t care if you’re scared or confident. It’s not about you, it’s about the audience. We’re trying to change their minds. That’s the hardest thing in the world to do.
So I tell clients: open-palm gestures at navel height. They’ll ask, “Should I make eye contact?” Don’t worry, it will fall into place.
This moment is extraordinary. You’re in an extraordinary situation. Ordinary behaviors, what feels natural or “authentic,” won’t cut it. Authenticity is about survival. It’s designed to keep you where you are, safe and small. But you’re not trying to be small, you’re leading. You need extraordinary behaviors for an extraordinary moment. And yes, it will feel odd. Do it anyway. Do it on purpose.
AW:
MB:
We’d have to travel to meet. That’s time and money. We’d have to find a venue. That’s even more risk, logistics, insurance, and a physical audience. There’s a reason insurers require waivers for live events, it’s risky.
Now compare that to this. What’s the risk assessment here?
AW:
MB:
If you met me in person, you’d think, “Wow, Mark’s amazing!” Why? Because you would’ve invested time and energy. Your brain would say, “This must be valuable, why else would I have spent all this effort?”
So here in this low-cost environment, I need to raise the perceived value. I do that by making this conversation feel more alive. More animated. I need to give your brain the sense of social risk, like we’re breathing the same air, even though we’re not.
AW:
MB:
But humans are visual. Some people claim they’re more auditory or tactile, but look at how much brainpower is dedicated to vision. Evolution figured out that sight is our best survival tool. So most of our attention goes to what people are doing, not how they sound.
Now, the sound part of the brain doesn’t like to make stuff up. Unlike vision, where your brain fills in the blanks, hearing is more binary. That’s why you’ll crash your car if you talk on a phone while driving. The low audio quality forces your brain to work harder on decoding sound, stealing resources from vision. Your peripheral vision narrows, and you don’t see danger coming.
AW:
MB:
So when I’m on a video call or a podcast, I’m really trying to animate the frame. I’ve got 30 frames per second. If I’m not using them, I may as well send a still image. But I’m not doing that. I’m sending a moving image, one that wakes up your brain.
I’ll often break the frame slightly to get your attention. You’ll notice I use baton gestures, too. These gestures match the rhythm of my speech. They help you not only hear the cadence, but also see it.
That helps the Broca’s area of your brain (where speech processing happens) get more confident that it’s predicting me correctly. Because really, you don’t hear what I’m saying; you predict it. Then based on whether your prediction matches, you feel like, “Oh, I understand Mark!”
AW:
MB:
But the moment those guesses stop working, your brain says, “I don’t get it.” First, it’ll assume the world is wrong, or that other people are wrong. If that doesn’t hold, the brain gets discouraged and says, “I don’t understand the universe anymore.” That’s because it’s not working from knowledge, it’s operating from predictions.
AW:
MB:
Our brains are pattern recognition machines. They spot patterns, and they like consistency. But when that pattern gets disrupted, the brain wakes up and re-evaluates.
If the new pattern is subtle or consistent, the brain keeps its judgment. But when it meets the “min spec” (the minimum specification needed to change its mind) it does. It flips.
So, when you’re trying to change a first impression, the key is understanding what that minimum trigger is. What’s the hair-trigger that shifts their perception?
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
Now, why do people automatically assume crossed arms mean someone’s “closed off”? Why make that judgment?
AW:
MB:
That’s why open palm gestures work so well. They give your audience enough information to make a safe, positive assumption. Crossed arms do the opposite.
So when I cross my arms, your brain reassesses. It goes: “I don’t know what that means. It’s a big enough shift to warrant re-evaluation, but I don’t have enough info.” So, instinctively, the brain defaults to negative: “Mark is bored, angry, or defiant.”
But maybe I’m just thinking. Or I’m cold. Or I’m trying to reduce neural load to help with decision-making.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
The more information you provide, the better people behave. Their judgments are more accurate, and they’re less likely to spiral into fear or doubt.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
If someone crosses their arms and you do the same? Now you’re both closed off. You lean back, they lean back, you spiral downward. Instead, only mirror the behaviors you want to see more of.
AW:
MB:
Here’s another take: All body language is either a response to power or a display of power.
AW:
MB:
Every movement you make is about power. Recognizing this helps you decode behavior more effectively.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
People will tell you: Our brains love answering hierarchical, evaluative questions. It’s hardwired.
AW:
Okay. Ready for rapid-fire?
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
But ask me about food? Pet peeves galore!
AW:
MB:
AW:
AW:
MB:
Well, that was a fascinating conversation, wasn’t it?
I didn’t expect we’d end up discussing our evolutionary path from ground-dwelling mammals to upright hominids on the African plains, but I’m so glad we did. That’s why I love bringing expert guests on the podcast. We get to learn together.
Now, let me reinforce the three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark Bowden:
Mark strongly emphasized this single technique. If you want to appear credible, trustworthy, and influential, use open palm gestures at navel height. This is your center of gravity. It’s also a vulnerable area. By exposing it, you signal trust and reduce perceived risk.
We instinctively scan our environment for threats, and we default to negative interpretations when information is missing. As communicators, and especially as leaders, we must recognize this and over-communicate clarity and safety, both verbally and nonverbally.
First, crossed arms don’t always mean defensiveness. They can indicate thoughtfulness, comfort, or even that you’re cold. Second, don’t mirror others’ body language indiscriminately. Only mirror behaviors that you want to reinforce. Otherwise, you risk reinforcing negativity or detachment.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on your podcast app, and don’t forget to hit subscribe so you can continue improving your communication skills with Talk About Talk.
Thanks again to Mark Bowden.
And thank YOU for listening.
Talk soon!
The post BODY LANGUAGE, a Matter of Survival – with Expert Mark Bowden (ep.191) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
4.7
3737 ratings
What is your body saying when you’re not speaking, and how could it be holding you back? In this episode, world-renowned body language expert Mark Bowden explains how nonverbal signals impact trust, credibility, and executive presence. Discover how our brains instinctively scan for safety cues, and why understanding body language is critical for anyone who leads, presents, or communicates under pressure.
“What instantly comes to your mind when you see me cross my arms?”
Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk:
Mark Bowden:
AW:
MB:
AW: Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, and he’s been on my radar for a while. When we finally connected for this interview, we discovered that we live and work near each other. What a coincidence! We both share a passion for helping others communicate more effectively.
But I have to say: Mark blew my mind.
This conversation took twists and turns I didn’t see coming. So buckle up. You’re about to learn a ton about body language, perception, credibility, and so much more.
Welcome to the Talk About Talk Podcast!
In this episode, you’ll hear my conversation with body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author Mark Bowden. You’ll learn the one key thing you need to focus on to instantly improve your body language, and your communication overall. You’ll also gain insight into how our motivations, including our primal survival instincts, shape our perceptions of others, especially when it comes to interpreting body language. And finally, we’ll bust a few body language myths that you’ve probably accepted as truth…until now.
If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. I’m so glad you’re here. And if you’re new to Talk About Talk, welcome! Please subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice (Apple, Spotify, or YouTube), where you can actually see me and Mark in action. Subscribing ensures you never miss an episode and that you receive ongoing communication coaching from me every two weeks.
We cover topics like:
You can also find free learning resources, coaching services, and more on the Talk About Talk website: talkabouttalk.com.
First, I’ll introduce Mark, then we’ll dive into our interview. Afterward, I’ll summarize with three key learnings that I hope you’ll take away. You don’t need to take notes. Just keep doing whatever you’re doing: walking, driving, lounging on the couch. I’ve got you covered. And of course, you can always reference the show notes in your podcast app for more details.
Mark Bowden is a globally recognized authority on body language. He’s been named the No. 1 Body Language Professional in the world multiple times by Global Gurus.
His unique GesturePlane™ system of nonverbal communication empowers audiences to use body language to stand out, build trust, and gain credibility.
Mark is the founder of TRUTHPLANE®, a communication training company that serves major organizations including Zoom, Shopify, Real Madrid, Toyota, the U.S. Army, and NATO. He’s also worked with G7 prime ministers and business leaders worldwide.
He’s a bestselling author, a popular instructor in Canada’s top-ranked EMBA program at the Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and the current President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada.
You might’ve seen Mark on the Dr. Phil Show, CNN, CBS, or Global News, or watched his TEDx talk, “The Importance of Being In-Authentic,” which has reached tens of millions of viewers. He’s also a co-host of the YouTube hit The Behavior Panel, which has garnered more than 75 million views.
Thank you so much for being here today, Mark, to talk with me, and the Talk About Talk listeners, about body language.
MB:
AW:
MB:
Well, we could come up with all kinds of explanations that aren’t really true. But the reality is, we form (and continue to form) judgments based mostly on how people behave in front of us. What their face is doing. What their body is doing. What their hands are doing. How they’re dressed. The environment they’re in.
We judge partly by vocal tone, but we barely judge each other on what’s actually said. In fact, we often just make up what we think someone said based on how they behaved. So if you change, or more importantly, choose, your behaviors, you stand a much better chance of shaping how someone judges you. That influences how they interpret what you’ve said and even what they imagine you said.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
My clients say the same thing. As soon as we talk about body language, especially when they’re on stage or leading a meeting, it’s like, “Where do I look? What do I do with my hands?” So what should executives prioritize when it comes to body language and being perceived as credible leaders?
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
When you’re under pressure and still use open-palm gestures at navel height, you create what I call a “cascade effect.” It triggers certain behaviors in your audience, and those behaviors influence the rest of the room.
AW:
MB:
But it’s not just the hands. The navel area represents the body’s center of gravity. It reveals your true intention. People say, “Watch their feet.” No, watch where their center of gravity is going. If the torso doesn’t move, the feet don’t matter.
This area here (your stomach, your navel) is incredibly vulnerable. We haven’t evolved to have ribs protecting it all the way down. Why? Because our ancestors needed to be able to duck, run, and twist quickly to survive. If we had a rigid ribcage extending all the way down, our agility would be compromised.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
That’s why I created a simple three-point scan:
Now I’ll say “Open palms at navel height.” What do you think about that framework?
MB:
That’s why I try to get clients down to just one behavior. When they’re under pressure, dealing with a big presentation or unexpected scrutiny, they can’t manage everything. So I say, “Just do the one thing that will create a cascade effect.”
Forget what you’re feeling. I don’t care if you’re scared or confident. It’s not about you, it’s about the audience. We’re trying to change their minds. That’s the hardest thing in the world to do.
So I tell clients: open-palm gestures at navel height. They’ll ask, “Should I make eye contact?” Don’t worry, it will fall into place.
This moment is extraordinary. You’re in an extraordinary situation. Ordinary behaviors, what feels natural or “authentic,” won’t cut it. Authenticity is about survival. It’s designed to keep you where you are, safe and small. But you’re not trying to be small, you’re leading. You need extraordinary behaviors for an extraordinary moment. And yes, it will feel odd. Do it anyway. Do it on purpose.
AW:
MB:
We’d have to travel to meet. That’s time and money. We’d have to find a venue. That’s even more risk, logistics, insurance, and a physical audience. There’s a reason insurers require waivers for live events, it’s risky.
Now compare that to this. What’s the risk assessment here?
AW:
MB:
If you met me in person, you’d think, “Wow, Mark’s amazing!” Why? Because you would’ve invested time and energy. Your brain would say, “This must be valuable, why else would I have spent all this effort?”
So here in this low-cost environment, I need to raise the perceived value. I do that by making this conversation feel more alive. More animated. I need to give your brain the sense of social risk, like we’re breathing the same air, even though we’re not.
AW:
MB:
But humans are visual. Some people claim they’re more auditory or tactile, but look at how much brainpower is dedicated to vision. Evolution figured out that sight is our best survival tool. So most of our attention goes to what people are doing, not how they sound.
Now, the sound part of the brain doesn’t like to make stuff up. Unlike vision, where your brain fills in the blanks, hearing is more binary. That’s why you’ll crash your car if you talk on a phone while driving. The low audio quality forces your brain to work harder on decoding sound, stealing resources from vision. Your peripheral vision narrows, and you don’t see danger coming.
AW:
MB:
So when I’m on a video call or a podcast, I’m really trying to animate the frame. I’ve got 30 frames per second. If I’m not using them, I may as well send a still image. But I’m not doing that. I’m sending a moving image, one that wakes up your brain.
I’ll often break the frame slightly to get your attention. You’ll notice I use baton gestures, too. These gestures match the rhythm of my speech. They help you not only hear the cadence, but also see it.
That helps the Broca’s area of your brain (where speech processing happens) get more confident that it’s predicting me correctly. Because really, you don’t hear what I’m saying; you predict it. Then based on whether your prediction matches, you feel like, “Oh, I understand Mark!”
AW:
MB:
But the moment those guesses stop working, your brain says, “I don’t get it.” First, it’ll assume the world is wrong, or that other people are wrong. If that doesn’t hold, the brain gets discouraged and says, “I don’t understand the universe anymore.” That’s because it’s not working from knowledge, it’s operating from predictions.
AW:
MB:
Our brains are pattern recognition machines. They spot patterns, and they like consistency. But when that pattern gets disrupted, the brain wakes up and re-evaluates.
If the new pattern is subtle or consistent, the brain keeps its judgment. But when it meets the “min spec” (the minimum specification needed to change its mind) it does. It flips.
So, when you’re trying to change a first impression, the key is understanding what that minimum trigger is. What’s the hair-trigger that shifts their perception?
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
Now, why do people automatically assume crossed arms mean someone’s “closed off”? Why make that judgment?
AW:
MB:
That’s why open palm gestures work so well. They give your audience enough information to make a safe, positive assumption. Crossed arms do the opposite.
So when I cross my arms, your brain reassesses. It goes: “I don’t know what that means. It’s a big enough shift to warrant re-evaluation, but I don’t have enough info.” So, instinctively, the brain defaults to negative: “Mark is bored, angry, or defiant.”
But maybe I’m just thinking. Or I’m cold. Or I’m trying to reduce neural load to help with decision-making.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
The more information you provide, the better people behave. Their judgments are more accurate, and they’re less likely to spiral into fear or doubt.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
If someone crosses their arms and you do the same? Now you’re both closed off. You lean back, they lean back, you spiral downward. Instead, only mirror the behaviors you want to see more of.
AW:
MB:
Here’s another take: All body language is either a response to power or a display of power.
AW:
MB:
Every movement you make is about power. Recognizing this helps you decode behavior more effectively.
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
People will tell you: Our brains love answering hierarchical, evaluative questions. It’s hardwired.
AW:
Okay. Ready for rapid-fire?
MB:
AW:
MB:
AW:
MB:
But ask me about food? Pet peeves galore!
AW:
MB:
AW:
AW:
MB:
Well, that was a fascinating conversation, wasn’t it?
I didn’t expect we’d end up discussing our evolutionary path from ground-dwelling mammals to upright hominids on the African plains, but I’m so glad we did. That’s why I love bringing expert guests on the podcast. We get to learn together.
Now, let me reinforce the three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark Bowden:
Mark strongly emphasized this single technique. If you want to appear credible, trustworthy, and influential, use open palm gestures at navel height. This is your center of gravity. It’s also a vulnerable area. By exposing it, you signal trust and reduce perceived risk.
We instinctively scan our environment for threats, and we default to negative interpretations when information is missing. As communicators, and especially as leaders, we must recognize this and over-communicate clarity and safety, both verbally and nonverbally.
First, crossed arms don’t always mean defensiveness. They can indicate thoughtfulness, comfort, or even that you’re cold. Second, don’t mirror others’ body language indiscriminately. Only mirror behaviors that you want to reinforce. Otherwise, you risk reinforcing negativity or detachment.
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on your podcast app, and don’t forget to hit subscribe so you can continue improving your communication skills with Talk About Talk.
Thanks again to Mark Bowden.
And thank YOU for listening.
Talk soon!
The post BODY LANGUAGE, a Matter of Survival – with Expert Mark Bowden (ep.191) appeared first on Talk About Talk.
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