Learn three ways to control your narrative and steer your professional identity. Andrea will teach you how to introduce yourself with purpose, reframe perceived weaknesses as strengths, and narrate your career transitions and your career journey. There are a million ways to tell the same story.  Why not tell yours in a way that serves you? 

At a recent live workshop I led on personal branding, I kicked things off by sharing three definitions of a personal brand—each one packed with meaning and offering a unique perspective. I started with Jeff Bezos’ infamous definition: “A brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room.” Think about that for a moment. It’s powerful, isn’t it? Imagine the conversations happening about you—when you’re not there to guide them. Are they speaking about your leadership? Your creativity? Your dependability? That’s your brand.

Then I highlighted the definition that Seth Godin shared with me when I interviewed him for Talk About Talk episode 171. This really struck a chord. Seth says your brand is what people think you’re going to do next. Wow. Let that sink in. Your brand isn’t just what you’ve done or who you are right now—it’s about expectations, trust, and your potential. Here’s a challenge: take out a sheet of paper. In one column, write down what YOU want to do next—your goals and aspirations. In the second column, write down what you think OTHER PEOPLE expect you to do next. Are those two lists aligned? If not, that’s where the real work begins. The gap between those two lists is where your brand needs some serious attention.

Back to the definitions of personal branding that I shared in the workshop.  Finally, I shared my own definition of personal branding, which isn’t just about a thought exercise—it’s about action. Here’s how I define it: personal branding is about being yourself on purpose. Being yourself—your true, authentic, unique, and best self. And on purpose—as in unapologetically, deliberately, and strategically managing your brand. It’s about being disciplined and stepping into your story with intention and owning it. One of the most powerful ways to do this is by controlling your narrative.

And that’s exactly what we’re covering today in this episode. I’m going to walk you through three impactful ways to control your narrative and steer your professional identity. Trust me, these strategies can transform the way people perceive you. Ready to get started?

Welcome to Talk About Talk podcast episode #182: “3 Ways to Control Your Narrative and Steer Your Professional Identity.”

Hi there! In case we haven’t met, I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, executive communication coach at Talk About Talk. But please, just call me Andrea. My mission is to coach executives and professionals like you to communicate with confidence, establish credibility, and achieve your career goals. I’m here to help you take charge of your narrative and own your story—and I couldn’t be more excited to share this episode with you.

You can learn more about me and what I do on the talkabouttalk.com website, where you’ll find details about my 1:1 private coaching, small group bootcamps, keynote speeches, and corporate workshops. I’ve also put together some amazing free resources for you, like the Archetypes Quiz and the Personal Brand Self-Assessment. They’re all on the website, and I’ll leave links in the show notes so you can dive in.

Alright, let’s do this! Let’s talk about how to control your narrative and steer your professional identity exactly where you want it to go.

After working with hundreds—maybe thousands—of executives, I’ve identified three specific ways you can take control of your narrative in a disciplined and strategic way. Here they are:

Let’s break these down, starting with the first one.

The first and most direct way to control your narrative is by introducing yourself with purpose. Let me be clear: your self-introduction is the cornerstone of your personal brand. It’s the most direct way that you can reinforce your identity.  It’s your words, about you, from you. It’s YOUR chance to own your story and reinforce exactly how you want to be perceived. If there’s one thing you focus on to take control of your narrative, make it your self-introduction.

If you’ve been listening to this podcast for a while, you probably know that the number one most downloaded episode of this podcast is the one where I explain the three-point self-introduction framework. It’s resonated with so many people because it’s simple, actionable, and effective. In fact, I recently re-released this episode as number XXX, and if you haven’t listened to it yet, I highly recommend it. This framework was also featured in an August 2022 Harvard Business Review hbr.org article, and in 2023, it was one of the top three most downloaded articles on hbr.org. That’s how powerful this topic is—it’s a game-changer.

Here’s a quick recap of the framework. The first step is present—as in present tense. This is where you share your name and what you do. For example: “Hi, my name is Chris, and I’m the Chief Financial Officer at the bank.” Straightforward, right?

The second step is past—as in past tense. This is where you establish credibility. You might talk about how long you’ve been in your role, highlight our credentials, or talk about an award. Think about what reinforces your credibility in that context.

The third and final step is future—as in future tense. This is where you inject some energy and enthusiasm. Share a statement about what you’re looking forward to. For example: “I’m really excited to get to know you better and work together on this project.” Or, if you’re in an interview: “I’m excited to learn more about this position because, based on what I’ve heard and read, I think I’m a great fit.”

The beauty of this framework is that it’s simple, yet endlessly adaptable. And here’s the magic: within each of these three steps, you can weave in elements of your personal brand that you want to highlight. Let me show you how this works with an example.

Imagine you’re trying to establish yourself as a strong people leader. In the present step, you could say: “Hi, my name is Alex, and I lead a team of 26 in the finance department.” In the past step, you could mention a successful program you launched to develop your team’s skills. And in the future step, you could share: “I’m passionate about helping my team members thrive, and I’m looking forward to seeing them achieve even more.” See how this reinforces your strengths at every step?

Let me give you another example. This one is  personal. Often, I’m asked to introduce myself to HR leaders who are considering me for executive coaching or workshops. Before I introduce myself, I pause to think: what aspects of my personal brand do I want to emphasize in this context? Maybe it’s my academic background paired with my high energy. So, I might say something like: “People tell me that my workshops are uniquely engaging and impactful, thanks to my academic training and the energy I bring to the stage.” That’s not just an introduction—it’s a narrative that reinforces exactly who I am.

So, here’s your homework: make a list of three to five strengths or superpowers that define you. Then, depending on the context, incorporate them into your self-introduction using the present-past-future framework. Trust me, this simple exercise can do wonders for your personal brand.

Okay, that’s the first way to control your narrative. Let’s move on to the second strategy, and this one’s a game-changer.

We all have something we perceive as a weakness, don’t we? But here’s the thing: often, those so-called weaknesses can be reframed into strengths. I’ve seen this transformation happen time and again with my clients, and the results can be life-changing.

Let me tell you a story. A while ago, I met a mixed-race gentleman who shared with me how exhausted he was with people constantly asking, “Where are you from?” He was frustrated. “I’m Canadian,” he’d reply. But his grandparents were from four different continents, and that seemed to invite even more questions. Instead of letting that frustration fester, we worked on a new narrative. Now, when people ask him where he’s from, he smiles and says, “My ancestry is a mix of A, B, C, and D. I also travel extensively for work and pleasure, so I bring a truly global perspective to my leadership style.” Powerful, right? He turned what felt like a nuisance into a compelling part of his story.

Here’s another example that hits close to my heart. . I was hosting a big Q&A focussed on personal branding. A brave woman raised her hand and shared that she’s a lawyer and she’s tired of being known as an immigrant. She wanted to change her brand, but wasn’t sure how. Here’s what I said: “based on your accent, am I right in detecting you maybe from India?” “Yes,“ she nodded. “Well here’s the thing. We all have accents. They just become more noticeable when our accent is different from others around us. But your English is very clear and the research shows that as long as we can understand each other, an accent is not a bad thing. And in your case, your accent may actually be an asset” I paused. She raised her eyebrows and looked at me expectantly. I continued. “you said you’re a lawyer. What kind of law? Corporate. Where do you practice law? New York. OK. I thought about it for a moment and then I said, here’s how you can introduce yourself. “I am a corporate lawyer in Manhattan with global experience.” And here’s the thing. Your accent serves as evidence of your global experience. Now, your accent is an asset. How does that sound? I don’t think I’ve seen a bigger smile on anyone’s face. She was thrilled.

And then there’s the story of a CEO I coached. This CEO spoke at warp speed. People struggled to keep up, and they’d often ask for clarification. Instead of seeing this as a flaw, we reframed it. Now, when the CEO introduces themselves, they say, “I think fast, and I speak fast—it’s how my brain works. But please let me know if I need to slow down.” Suddenly, their rapid speech became a reflection of their intelligence and agility.

Here’s a common one: being an introvert. Now, I want to make this clear. Introverts are no worse or better than extroverts.  But I know many people who are introverts who would rather be an extrovert. My answer to that is that we should all be our true, authentic selves. And we should also control our narratives. If youre an introvert, I encourage you to steal these insights. To start, Introverts are typically fantastic listeners. So if youre an introvert, you could make this part of your brand. Or introverts could also reference the fact that while they don’t say much, when they do, people lean in to listen. 

Here’s another example – your sense of humor. I’ve had a few clients who told me that they try to hide their sense of humor. One was a global chief of staff and the other was a psychiatrist. One of them referenced their sense of humour as a wicked sense of humor. They both tried to conceal their desire to crack jokes, at least when they were at work. After working with each of these individuals on their personal brand narrative, they both ended up focussing on their unique ability to bring LEVITY to otherwise negative situations and contexts. Of course, they checked their sense of humour at the door when it wasn’t appropriate. But they also had a unique talent for establishing camaraderie, encouraging joy, and like I said, bringing levity to otherwise dire situations. Suddenly, their sense of humour became their superpower.

Hmm.  I love it.

Do you see the pattern here? What you perceive as a weakness might actually be your secret weapon. It’s all about reframing. So here’s my challenge for you: think about something you’ve been trying to hide. Could it be turned into an asset? If you’re not sure, talk to someone you trust. Sometimes, it takes an outside perspective to see the potential in what we’ve been holding back.

The final way to control your narrative is by owning your career transitions. Whether you’re meeting someone for coffee, networking, or interviewing for a job, how you tell the story of your career matters—a lot. And let’s face it: transitions can feel tricky. But with a little strategy, you can turn them into powerful moments of connection.

Here’s the framework I teach my clients for narrating career transitions: the 3 Ts. Talent, Timeline, and Tomorrow.

Talent: When sharing the story of their career transition, many people start with the past, and they are often negative. They start listing everything wrong with their last employer, their position, their boss, and their colleagues. Sound familiar? 

Instead, start with YOU. Start with your talents and strengths. What makes you unique? What’s your superpower? This anchors your story in who you are, not what happened to you. For example: “I thrive in fast-paced environments where I can lead change.” Or: “I’ve always been known for my ability to build strong, collaborative teams.”

Once you’ve established your brand, then you can start to tell the story. That’s step two.

Timeline: Next, share a tight, positive summary of your career journey. Highlight the moments that matter, but don’t dwell on negativity. 

Whether you’re gainfully employed and curious about other opportunities, or perhaps you were fired, keep your messaging professional and positive, or at least neutral. 

While it’s tempting, avoid blaming and avoid venting. 

And of course, don’t ever share sensitive or confidential information.

Instead of saying, “I left because my boss was terrible,” try: “I realized I was ready for a new challenge and decided to explore opportunities where I could grow.” Keep it concise, and keep it professional.

So you’ve nailed your Talent, and you’ve shared your Timeline. Now what? 

Tomorrow: Finally, end with enthusiasm about the future. (Yes, this might sound familiar if you’ve heard me talk about the 3-point self-introduction framework!) 

Share what excites you and where you’re headed next. For instance: “I’m energized about finding a role where I can drive meaningful impact and continue to grow as a leader.” Or: “I’m excited to explore opportunities in [specific field] and see where I can make a difference.”

And there you have it—the 3 Ts framework: Talent, Timeline, and Tomorrow. It’s simple, effective, and helps you own your story with confidence.

One quick note: be intentional about the language you use to describe your transition. Words matter. 

The question of how you “label” your transition is significant. 

Recently, I was coaching an impressive executive who resigned from his employer of over 20 years to reset and try something completely new. Unfortunately, he created a LinkedIn post announcing he had “retired.” He meant “retired from the firm,” but the hundreds of folks who commented on his post understood he was retiring from work altogether.

Oops. Words matter.

So are you taking a “sabbatical” or a “gap year”? Did you get “downsized” or were you “packaged out”? Are you “re-setting” or making a “career pivot”?  Choose terms that feel authentic but also convey strength and professionalism.

Let’s recap. We talked about three powerful ways to control your narrative and steer your professional identity:

I hope these strategies inspire you to take charge of your narrative and step into your story with confidence. Remember, your personal brand is all about being yourself on purpose.

If you found this episode helpful, please subscribe on whatever podcast platform you use – Apple Spotify, YouTube, whatever, and please share Talk About Talk with your friends. Thanks for listening, and TALK SOON!

The post 3 Ways To Control Your NARRATIVE & Steer Your Professional Identity (ep.182) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are you keen to kickstart your Personal Brand? Not sure where to start? Andrea shares 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand, including helpful advice on how to introduce yourself, articulating your unique value proposition, establishing thought leadership, optimizing your digital footprint, and building a quality network.

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube/

Well hello there!  I’ve got something for you today that I’m so excited to share.  This is a very different episode. You’re going to hear a recording of a LinkedIn Live presentation I did recently. The topic was “5 Ways to Kickstart Your Personal Brand.” 

After receiving lots of positive feedback, I decided to turn this into a podcast episode.  If you’re listening in podcast form, you can also watch this presentation on YouTube, where you can see me and my slides and even some people who were in the audience. There’s a link to my YouTube channel in the shownotes. Or just go to youtube.com and type “Talk About Talk.”

Whether you’re listening, or you’re watching – Welcome! 

Let’s do this!

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #181 – “5 Ways to Kickstart Your Brand.” The idea here is to learn about 5 specific, legitimate ways you can kickstart your personal brand development. This whole personal branding thing can be a bit overwhelming. So my suggestion is to listen to these top 5 Ways to kickstart your brand, then choose 1-2 that you can focus on over the next month.  Then maybe tackle a few more.  And suddenly, you’ve developed a personal brand that you’re really proud of.

Before I share the LinkedIn Live, I just want to quickly introduce myself. In case we haven’t met, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk. Please just call me Andrea. I coach executives like you to improve your communication skills so you can communicate with confidence, establish credibility, and ultimately achieve your career goals. 

You can learn more about me and what I do on the talkabouttalk.com website, where you can read about my 1:1 private coaching, small group bootcamps, keynote speeches, and corporate workshops. 

On the website you’ll also see several ways to contact me and connect with me. Please connect with me on LinkedIn! After this episode, send me a DM and let me know what you think.  I love hearing from you. 

Okay, here is one thing that is crystal clear to me ironically. since I started coaching folks on their personal brand and reading and thinking about it and writing about it and podcasting about it is that personal branding means different things to different people.

 Okay. And so I’m not here to tell you what the wrong definition is, or what the right definition is. But I am here to tell you that we need to be really careful about defining it, and if you use the word personal branding, I find that even with some people it can be triggering like, oh, I don’t want to do that. It’s slimy. I don’t want to be selling myself, whatever. So think of your personal brand as being conscious of your professional identity. So we’re here focusing on our professional identity. Okay.

I’m going to share with you a couple definitions, one that you you’ve probably heard of, and maybe one that you haven’t the one that you may have heard, because almost every single article and book, and whatever that I everything online that I read about personal branding usually starts with this in the first, st like paragraph or 2, Jeff Bezos famously said, your brand is what people say about you when you’re not in the room. And I think this for for a long time. This was a definition that I really I really focused on. It’s an interesting exercise. I want you to maybe jot this down. Ask yourself. what do people think and say about you when you’re not there? And this is something that I ask my clients, especially if they’re if they’re gunning for a promotion.

What is your boss and your boss’s boss saying about you when they’re talking about? Who to promote, and your name comes up in conversation. That is your professional identity, and don’t freak out if it’s not what you know you want it to be. We can obviously build and develop that. That’s why we’re here. But that is what your personal brand is. It’s what people say about you when you’re not in the room.

So I was going with this definition for a while, but I’ve I’ve done some interviewing and some thinking about this. As I said, I interviewed Seth Godin for a recent podcast, episode, and I asked him, I said, Seth. do you think about your brand? I mean, this guy has a pretty strong brand, right? Do you think about your brand? And he said, you know I kind of think about it, and not really. But I know I have one. And then I said, Well, what’s the definition of a brand? And he said, Your brand is what people think you’re going to do next. And I was like, Oh, stop for a second! That is gold. Your brand is what people think you’re going to do next. So I immediately after I interviewed him, took out a sheet of paper, and I said. What do I want to do? Let’s start with what I want to do. What do I want to do next? What are my big aspirations? And then in the next column I said, what do people think is conceivable or possible that I’m going to do next, or even likely that I’m going to do next right. And then, is there a disconnect between any of the things that I want to do, and what people would assume. And then, is there a way that I can address that? I think this is a beautiful exercise. Again, it’s more of a mental exercise than it is really a definition. Right? So the interesting thing about these 2 definitions from Jeff Bezos and Seth Godin is is that they’re both looking at you. you as a brand from other people’s perspective, which is fair right. If you were a brand manager, as I once was in my before I went to Harvard I was working at Kraft foods in marketing as a brand manager, and the brands that I was managing. It was about what consumers. What are other people external? You know, bodies? What did they think about the brand? So this is how I think this is how Jeff Bezos and Seth Godin think about it. But now I’m working on the other side with folks helping them build and manage their personal brand. So this is about assuming some agency, right, some ownership, some influence on what other people are saying. So here’s my definition. Personal branding is about being yourself on purpose. So there’s 2 parts of this, if you want to pull it apart, there’s the being yourself, and there’s the on purpose, and both of them are very important. Probably the on purpose is more important. That’s why it’s in caps. But the being yourself I want to be really clear. This is not false in any way. This is your true authentic self. Of course it’s aspirational. You’re not looking to reinforce your areas for development, as we call them, right, your weaknesses. It’s it’s about being your true best self, your true, best authentic self, that’s part of it. And then the other part of it is on purpose. So here’s where I have an issue when people say, Oh, well, I don’t want to sell myself. I don’t want to be a brand. I don’t want to be salesy, and I’m like, well, here’s the thing. You have a brand, whether you choose to consciously manage and develop it or not.

So why don’t you just talk about yourself in a way that reinforces your positive attributes. Why don’t you take some time to think about the things that are going to help you, and sharing the stories that are going to help you instead of not thinking about it, or maybe even sharing the things that are going to hurt you. So the on purpose, is unapologetically, in a disciplined and strategic way. thinking about and acting on how to optimize, build, and develop your ideal personal brand. And again, it is authentic and true to you. Okay, I want to get that definition and and sort of these mental exercises out of the way before we jump into the 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand.

All right. the 1st one for those of you who follow me on linkedin, or you listen to the podcast on a regular basis is probably not going to surprise you. My 1st recommendation is that you learn to introduce yourself with confidence. I know from years of coaching folks that the self-introduction is an anxiety-laden context that is very frequent. We’re often asked to introduce ourselves whether it’s 1 on one, whether it’s online, whether it’s in person whether it’s in a group. Let’s go around the table or around the screen and introduce ourselves. And I. Still, when that happens, my mind still goes to the oh, what do I say? Should I say something personal? How long do I talk right immediately? Now that I’ve developed this framework, I stop that vicious cycle of anxiety. And I say, calm down, Andrea, you have a framework for this, and you know it works every time.

So I created this framework, and I wrote it up. I wrote it up and and submitted it to Harvard Business School. This was in August 2022, and it was immediately accepted, and I got lots of accolades or impressions on it. And then in 2023. So a year ago, Harvard Business Review announced that it was one of the top 3 most downloaded [email protected], and I attribute that to a couple things. I attribute that to the fact that what I just said is a very common experience. It’s also high anxiety experience for most of us. In fact, I would say almost, I’ve never met someone who doesn’t say that. Yeah, they feel anxious when they’re introducing themselves. And also this framework is so easy to learn. You don’t even need to take notes, and I’m going to teach it to you right now, really, quickly, for those of you who already know it. This is just a review step. One is present as in present tense, so a lot of people make the mistake of starting their self introduction with the past. It’s like they’re sharing their autobiography. No, no, no, you’re doing a self introduction. Think about your brand right? That’s why we’re here. You want to start with who you are and what you do so start with the present tense. As you do more work on your personal brand. You can elaborate right? So my name is Dr. Andrea Voynitsky. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach. I talk about talk. You can stop with your name, your title, and where you work once you’ve done the work. You can say what differentiates me compared to other executive communication coaches, or what differentiates me compared to other Hr managers, or what differentiates me compared to other Podcasters. Right? So that’s when you can really knock it out of the park in terms of nailing your introduction and reinforcing your personal brand that you want to reinforce. But for now, if this is your 1st time, seeing this, just your name, what you do and where you do it is great, that’s present tense. Think present. Okay. then, you go back into the past. In a professional context, this is where you establish credibility. So in the past I taught at the University of Toronto. Right? I know at least one artist here you could say in the past I taught at this art school, or I earned you could share your degrees, you could share your credentials, you could share awards that you’ve won, you could share publications right? Depending on the context. So again, this is the beauty of this framework, depending on who you’re talking to, and the context, and even taking the cue from other people in terms of how long they’re talking, you can decide. Am I going to share one or 2 or 3 things? But in a professional context, this step, 2 past focus on establishing credibility. Okay, so what? 3 things are most relevant to that context.

The 3rd step is the step that most people forget. So if we just, you know informally went around. Before I taught you this framework, most people would start with past, and then they’d go to present. And then that’s it right. The future tense is the icing on the cake.

Here’s why research shows that when you demonstrate enthusiasm, things will turn out your way. I learned this from a negotiations expert that I interviewed for my podcast named Dr. Tatiana astray. And she told me that in negotiations, contexts, and her research showed this, and there’s a whole body of literature here that shows this, that things are more likely to turn out your way. She actually had a specific insight that people are more likely to want to negotiate with you in the future. If you demonstrate enthusiasm, positive enthusiasm during the negotiation. And I was like. you know, life is basically a series of negotiations. So if I just up to my enthusiasm, things are going to go my way. Right people are going to want to talk to me, whatever whatever it is that my, that my goal is so in this step 3 of your self-introduction and this didn’t end up in the Harvard Business review article, but I’m going to add it to you. Here. End your self introduction with a positive statement of enthusiasm about the future, specifically with the person or people that you’re introducing yourself to. So you may have noticed when I introduced myself at the beginning of this session, I said, and I’m really in my happy place, and I’m really excited to share with you 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand in 2025, right? So it could be as simple as that. If you’re in a job interview, you finish your your present past, and then you say I’m really excited to learn more about this position, because I think I might be a great fit. Or if you’re in a meeting where you’re meeting a new team or you’re working on a new project together, you could say I’m really looking forward to getting to know all of you better, and knocking this project out of the park right? And then what you’ve done is you’ve demonstrated enthusiasm yourself. You’re also elegantly handing it on to the next person, because then they’ll know your introduction is done. Okay, so the 1st way to kickstart your personal brand in 2025 is to start introducing yourself with confidence in any context. professional, even personal. You can introduce yourself to a new neighbor. Hi! My name is Andrea. I live right next door, and then you could go into past. My family has lived here for so many years this child was born here. Blah blah! They used to play soccer at the Park over there. Right? You go past and then future. You could say we’d love to have you over in the backyard for a Barbecue sometime. Right? So you see how easy it is.

Customize this three-point framework with your self introduction, and and think in each of the 3 steps how you can reinforce the things about you that you want to reinforce, which leads me to the second way to kickstart your personal brand. It’s articulating your unique personal brand statement. So I want to go back to my brand management days when I used to work at Kraft Foods, right? We used to talk a lot about the unique selling proposition of whatever the product was. So why did someone choose a certain coffee brand. It’s about identifying that unique thing right? Otherwise you wouldn’t be a brand. It’d be no name, in which case I guess your brand is that it’s cheap but cheaper. But what is the unique thing about the coffee brand, just like tide versus other laundry detergents right? Or whatever the brand is what is the unique thing. The brands are all seeking their unique selling proposition in the same way that you should. I really encourage you to do this. In fact, when I’m coaching folks on, when I do workshops, and even when I do boot camps, I say, if there’s 1 thing, if there is one thing I want you to take away. It’s actually this, I want you to focus on what makes you unique.

You know, I’ve met plenty of people who aren’t, who haven’t spent the time thinking about what their unique selling proposition is, and I feel like they are struggling to be a B plus and maybe an a minus, if they’re a really hard worker, right? And then it’s like, it’s like something opens up when they take the time in a disciplined and strategic way to identify what their unique strengths are, their unique strengths and passions. And then it’s like, it’s like. Suddenly they are happier and more successful than they ever were, because they’re being true to themselves. And it’s so easy. By the way, if you’re true to your unique self, right? So how do you do this. I mean there, there’s definitely a whole process. But we’re starters.

When you’re introducing yourself, introduce yourself as I am a whatever your title is, whatever your industry is, whatever your function is, who and fill in that blank? Who? What? What differentiates you relative to others? So I’m not a big fan of scripts, but I do provide my clients with prompts, so the prompt would be what differentiates me relative to other finance leaders is my ability to blah blah, right? Or here’s another one. People tell me I call it the 3 magic words. People tell me that something that stands out about my work, my art. My, the way that I lead people is whatever. So I encourage you to double down on your unique personal brand statement, because here’s the thing unique is better than better. What do I mean by that? As I said, so many of us. the B pluses and the A minuses. Many of us here spend a lot of time, including myself looking around at what other people are doing and emulating and copying them, because I want to get better. And I’m thinking about. What do people think I should do? That’s going to be better instead of thinking about what are my strengths? By the way? And this is getting a little bit into nuance if you’re junior in your career. I say this, I don’t coach a lot of really junior folks, but when there’s junior folks in an audience. I will say this. and maybe some of you have teenagers or twenty-somethings, or 30 something kids, and you can share this with them early in your career. It’s a fantastic idea to copy other people, because you don’t know what your style is. Yet right? So you emulate, you copy, you experiment right? But once you hit mid-career, you kind of know what makes you special, what your unique strengths and passions are, and that’s when, if you really want to knock it out of the park. You focus on what makes you unique. All right.

If there’s 1 screen I want you to. I want you to screen capture. It’s this one. Okay, unique is better than better. All right. Number 3 is establishing thought leadership.

You know, when a lot of people think about personal branding, their mind, depending on what industry you’re in their mind goes to thought leadership right? So so in this industry that I’m in, am I considered a thought leader. If you go online and you Google, like personal branding courses or whatever a lot of it focuses on on establishing thought leadership. So last year I had the privilege of interviewing Roger Martin. He’s my past boss actually at when I used to be on the faculty at the University of Toronto, and he is a prolific thought leader like very prolific like he’s lost count of how many books and Harvard business review articles he’s written, and he has a lot of interesting things to say so, if you’re interested in developing your thought leadership, I strongly recommend that you listen to talk about talk, podcast episode number 150. He started out by saying something when I asked him. I think the 1st I can’t remember. I think the 1st question that I asked him in the episode was to be a leader. Do you have to be a thought leader? And he was like.

Yeah, you do. Andrea. But and this is where he got me thinking. But you need to consider this continuum of private thought leadership to public thought leadership. So the people who report to you the people who you work with, even if you don’t have direct reports. they need to know the people, even the people that you’re selling to right. So whoever your key stakeholders are, they need to know, as he says, what you stand for, what you care about what you know, what your expertise is, they need to know that. So that’s like your private thought leadership. And then there’s this continuum to public thought leadership. And he said, in fact, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking that they need to become public thought leaders like, I am like he is right where we’re sharing things on Linkedin, and in articles, and I also have an Inc. Magazine column where I have 2 articles a month. So that’s public thought leadership. If you’re not as interested in being a thought leader. He talks about how this is a lot of work, and it takes a certain personality.

Still, if you want to be a leader. Think about being a private thought leader. So, as I said before, with the stakeholders who are relevant for you. what is the area that you are going to be an expert on. So there’s really when I coach people on this, there’s really 2 things. One is defining what the topic is. So ask yourself these kinds of questions. If I was going to write a book. what would the book be about? You don’t need to know everything right, but it’s a topic that you’re so interested in, that you have something to say, and you’re probably keen to do more research. If I was going to give a Ted Talk. What would it be about? That’s a great thought leadership topic for you. Right? It could be your industry, it could be your function. It could be something about people leadership. It could be something that’s going on in our culture. My husband and I have a friend who is a Phd. In engineering at Procter and Gamble, and he has been working in their manufacturing department for decades, and his thought leadership in the organization is around sustainability and he, independent in his job and outside of his job he does a ton of research on improving sustainability and the environmental factors, right? He’s even gone to Washington to do lobbying and everything. So it doesn’t have to be necessarily your function or your industry. It could be some specific element. And the other thing about the topic is, it can change over time, so don’t don’t freak out like I don’t know what my topic is. Just care about. Right? What are you interested in start creating thought leadership around that. So that’s step one is deciding what the topic is. Step 2 is considering the media. So on. What media are you going to be communicating your thought leadership the obvious one for me, and and with all of you here, who probably connected here through Linkedin, is just to go to Linkedin. So how do you do this on Linkedin? Let’s do this in baby steps 1st when you go through your feed, and you see something interesting, especially if you have an opinion on it, instead of just liking it or putting the little idea light bulb. Why not make a comment like, I agree with this because or I agree with this. And I would add right, or even asking a question that is sharing thought leadership. Okay, it doesn’t have to mean writing a white paper, or, as I said, creating a Ted Talk, it could be commenting on Linkedin. It could be. You want to go to the next level. reposting someone else’s post. So that same post where you commented. Why don’t you repost it for the people that follow you and say interesting post here. I would add that they listed 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand. My favorite one was Number 3, establishing thought leadership. Right? You see what I did there, so you can repost someone else’s post with an opinion. Don’t repost without an opinion. Please repost with some comments. You can also, if you read an article, start subscribing to Inc. Magazine where I’m an author. or to fast Company, or Harvard Business Review, or Forbes, or whatever it is, and when an article comes up that intrigues you, that you have an opinion about, post it and say, this is a great article, because or you know, this article about 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand is great, and my favorite one is this one. You see what I’m doing that’s like. It doesn’t have to be you creating something from a blank page.

If you do want to create something from a blank page, you could write an article. You could write an article in Linkedin and publish it as an article. By the way, apparently Linkedin is pushing these. So you’re probably going to get a lot of traction. You could write an article for one of the other publications or some other publication that’s relevant for your industry. But beyond Linkedin, sharing thought, leadership can even be mentoring formally and informally. It could be doing formal training for folks. And of course it could include things like keynote speeches. So I want you to think about your thought leadership in 3 ways. One is the continuum of private to public. One is choosing a topic, knowing that you can and probably should change it over time. And the 3rd thing is deciding what media you’re going to communicate your thought leadership through. Okay, we’re over halfway through here.

The 4th way to kickstart your personal brand in 2025 is to optimize your digital footprint. You know what I’m going to say here, you’ve got to Google yourself.

Other people are, and yes, it’s frightening. I force myself to do it every now and then. You want to open an incognito window. If you don’t know how to do that. You can search, how to do that. But you want to open an incognito window, or even try this on someone else’s phone or device. Ask your kid or your spouse, or whoever someone at work for their phone and Google yourself, and see what comes up, especially on the 1st page. But go through it. You need to. You need to know what is out there. So you want to optimize your digital footprint. We talked about identifying your unique selling proposition are the things that are out there consistent with your unique selling proposition. The number one easiest way to optimize your digital footprint in a professional context is Linkedin. They make it. They hand it to you on a silver platter. So think about it. Your profile page on Linkedin is free online real estate that you control these people that keep their their linkedin profiles private, I’m like, why, why would you keep it private? You are controlling what’s on your profile? Right? So make sure you’ve got a great headshot. We’ll talk about that in a second. You want to make sure that people recognize you. You want to have a great headshot. You want to have a nice banner image. Your headline should be more than just your title and your and your employer. Right? List, your industry list, your function list, your superpowers list, your unique selling proposition right? And make sure that everything’s optimized. And like I said, they hand it to you on a silver platter. If you go to Linkedin when we’re done here, they have suggestions like, here are the top 5 suggestions for things that you should fill in. So start with Linkedin. And the thing is, the more you’re on Linkedin, the higher up. If you search yourself hopefully. This page that you’ve created. That you control is what’s going to show up when you Google yourself make sure you have updated headshots. I know a lot of people stress out about this because I hear it from my clients all the time. You don’t need to have a professional photo shoot.

It does help. I have a photographer that’s actually become a great friend of mine. I’ve had 2 photo shoots with just me and one with my entire family, which was great fun. But if you can find a professional photographer that you really trust, that can help you a lot. But regardless, you know, you just need to stand in front of a neutral background, wearing, I say, for Linkedin, you want to wear what you would wear to an important day at work. You don’t have to wear a suit and tie. In fact, I think most people don’t wear a suit and tie anymore. But you can. You can look around at what other people are wearing in their headshots that are at similar industries and functions, or maybe a level up from what you’re looking for, right? And you can take. Take some advice from that. Make sure that there that wherever there are headshots or images of you online. that they do look like you and your best, you. And if there’s a way that you can update something, even if another organization created the post, is there a way that you can update the image. And then the other thing is, remember what I said before. where the websites that are getting the most traffic like hopefully Linkedin, you’re going to move up when people Google, you, that’ll be one of the 1st things that show up. Okay, so that’s just incentive for you to start using Linkedin a little bit more. The last thing I want to say here is, I guess, really, from my days as a brand manager you really want to be consistent. If there’s 1 shot of you that looks like you that looks like your best, you that exemplifies your personal brand. You know what there’s nothing wrong with using it everywhere. I, even myself, I get caught up in the oh, people! People have already seen that, or they’re going to get bored. You know what, Andrea. People don’t think about you that much so being consistent is really key. So you can. Probably this reminds me. This consistent theme reminds me of also, you may have an element of your style that you want to reinforce. So for me, it’s the color turquoise I wear turquoise. I paint with turquoise. I have turquoise on my website. I have turquoise on my on everywhere. I have turquoise everywhere. I have turquoise in my house, as you can see, I have turquoise on my Powerpoint slides. So being consistent is the name of the game, a lot of folks. As I said, if you Google, how to develop my personal brand thought leadership is one thing that comes up. Another thing that comes up is, what is your visual identity? Okay? And this is what I’m talking about here in terms of being consistent. You want to. You want people to go. Oh, that’s that same person who did that right? So it’s not like you want people to meet you again like freshly every single time they see you online, you want them to recognize you. So whatever you can do to cue them that it’s the same person is going to help you. All right.

That’s 4 out of 5.

The 5th way to kickstart your personal brand in 2025 is developing your quality network. I want to reinforce here that I’m talking about quality, not quantity. I put that word in there for a reason. I know that a lot of people think about developing your network as like getting more followers on Linkedin. By the way, we are talking about online and in person. Here, in terms of your network, both are extremely important, but for both it’s about quality, not quantity, your goal in terms of networking, especially if you choose to double down on this 1 1st is to establish quality relationships. Okay, quality relationships.

How do you do that? I’ve got 3 surprise surprise, 3 pieces of advice for you here, 1st and foremost. be generous. Now I think I knew this, but I really learned this. It was really reinforced by my friend Sharon Majin, who’s an executive recruiter, who I work with quite a bit, and she said, she says, and I know this is true. A lot of people feel icky about networking because they think it’s selling. And she said, If that’s you, you need to stop being selfish and thinking about selling and start thinking about what you can do for other people all of a sudden. If you’re thinking about being generous, providing value for other people, it doesn’t feel icky at all right.

People are benefiting from their relationship and their interactions with you. So what does this mean? This means showing up at the dreaded cocktail, networking event. and generously listening to other people generously introducing people to other people, right generously providing them with information. So just think, how can I provide value, whether it’s online, whether you’re reconnecting with someone, you find an article that someone would find helpful. You think about 2 people that would probably find value in interacting, making that introduction. There’s many ways that you can be generous. So be generous and provide value. And I put stars. And I put it in capitals because I really want it. This is a game changer for a lot of people when it comes to networking. even as an extrovert myself, I know that when I’m invited to networking events, I kind of go. Oh, but then, I remind myself, Andrea, you’re going to be generous. It’s not going to feel icky right. You’re going to be generous. You’re going to help people. You’re going to direct them to articles. You’re going to introduce people you’re going to provide value. You’re going to be a great listener. You’re going to be generous. Okay, that’s the 1st thing the second thing is. and this one is one that I have been experimenting with, and it is gold always follow up. So what do I mean by this?

It means, when you go to that event. follow up with every single person that you met, and just say great to meet, great, to have met you, and by the and then you can be generous. Right? Here’s the article I was talking about, or I’m going to separately send you an email and introduce you to that person. Right? Follow up with the people that you met after meetings. I did this. I had a meeting Friday, and I knew there were going to be 2 people there and then 2 people that I hadn’t expected to be there were also there, and I thought, this is an example of when I should follow up, I should follow up and say it was great to meet you. I didn’t know you were going to be there. Wonderful to meet you for the 1st time. Blah blah! I’m looking forward to working together. Right? So follow up if you’re in a in a job interview. Obviously, you’re sending a thank you. Note. Sharon says that a thank you note whether it’s for after an interview, or maybe a coffee meeting that you’re having with someone thanking someone for meeting you is your opportunity to reinforce your personal brand. So think about what you want to say to them and what you want to reinforce.

The 3rd thing that I’m going to share with you to develop your quality network is very tactical, but I know from the response that I get from people that they really like this one. It’s approach odd numbers. So what do I mean by that?

You see this picture on the right here of the 4 folks that are awkwardly sitting with their holding their their little whatever appetizer plates and their drinks. We’ve all. We’ve all been in the situation right where you you go and get your your glass of wine or your cup of coffee, whatever it is, and your little snack, and you turn around and you see the sea of strangers. And you’re like, okay, who do I talk? Who do I talk to? I don’t know. This is gold approach odd numbers. So you want to go up to either a Singleton or a threesome. Do not walk over to 2 people that are talking to each other. Why? Because by definition, you’re a 3rd wheel. Okay? You are interrupting a dialogue. You don’t want to interrupt a dialogue. So in this, in this stage photo, probably of 4 people, there were probably 3 people talking, and then the 4th person comes over.

Either all 3 people are going to turn to you, or 2 people are going to continue talking, and the 3rd person is going to talk to you. Right? So I love this. I use this all the time. It’s actually magic. Part of what helps us build our confidence is just having frameworks instead of being like. Oh, who should I talk to? Who’s the victim going to be looking around? Kind of doing the cringe instead? Think, where are the 3 people? Boom over there? Go. So your brain doesn’t even have time to feel the social anxiety. Okay, so that’s the 5th way to start your personal brand in 2025, develop your quality network number one. Most important thing is provide value and be generous. Always follow up and approach odd numbers.

Okay? So now I’m going to summarize here the 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand. This woman is feeling a little overwhelmed, as you can see she’s got things she’s thinking about, and everybody wants a piece of her. You probably know the feeling. There’s a lot to think about with your personal brand. I hope that you, if you don’t already use the self-interaction framework that you’re going to practice introducing yourself with confidence, present, past, future. articulating your unique personal brand statement. So thinking, taking the time to think about 1, 2, or 3 things that differentiate you compared to other people that have your same job establishing thought leadership. Remember about the private to public continuum and also thinking about the topic and the media through which you’re going to be communicating your thought leadership, optimizing your digital footprint. Yes, Googling yourself. And yes, optimizing your Linkedin profile and making it public, please. And then, as we just said, developing your quality network again. It’s not about quantity, it’s about developing meaningful relationships. This is really going to help you. not just establish your brand, but but to achieve whatever goals you have.

So if if I were you and I was looking at this, I’d be like, Okay, so these are 5 things. That’s a lot my challenge, as I said to you, is to identify one or 2 that you’re going to knock off your to-do list in January. Just just write them down and think about them, and maybe make a plan. and I think that is it. I’m happy to answer any questions that you have about the 5 strategies or tactics that I shared with you to kickstart your personal brand and also anything related to communication skills, but especially personal branding. And I’m going to stop sharing now, and I’m going to look in the in the chat. But does anyone have any questions that they want to ask before I go into the chat I would love to hear from a human.

Come on, some brave soul practice establishing your professional identity.

It’s Celine. How are you? I’m great. This this was really really informative. The one thing that probably I would love if we could just spend a minute and talk about is when you talked about Jeff Bezos, and what he talked about. People talking about the brand when you leave the room just feels like such an established thing versus what you’re saying, which is more present and future. I’m just wondering, like it just feels like one has the intention of what you want to do versus how you’re already perceived. And it’s like how we’re bridging that, you know. So if you could just spend a minute and talk about it because I felt like. It was quite the difference between how it’s been done with what Bezos is, you know, sort of famous saying and what we’re now looking at it in terms of going forward. Yeah, you know, Celine, I am so glad that you said that I’m going to admit something here literally was just thinking about this this morning how? And I’m I’m writing a book about all this stuff. And and I was like, Oh, that needs to go in the book, how these definitions are actually about the past. right?

Even Seth Godin’s definition, what people think you’re gonna do next is based on your past. So you’re predicting the future based on past behavior. That’s what happens in behavior, description interviews they ask you like, give us an example of when you demonstrated your people skills blah blah. And then they’re like, okay. So in the future they’ll probably do that as well. So my take on it is, I’m using this word agency. I love. The idea of the fact that we can control other people’s perceptions of us, based on the signals that we’re sending out into the universe, based on the words that we use, based on the stories that we tell, based on the tone of our voice, based on what we’re wearing, based on the, you know I’m putting behind me my bookshelf, my painting, my microphone. All these things are signals that are constantly updating. So if we, if we decide, as I hope we all do. That’s why you’re here that we have this agency. We have this control. We have this power over what, like nobody else, has more power than ourselves over how we are perceived right now and in the future. So it’s about taking the time and in a disciplined and strategic way. identifying what those really positive, unique, and relevant things are about us. This is this is one of the things that comes up in the boot camp. Positive, unique, and relevant. Pure is the thing that we’re talking about. Is it relevant for your goals? Is it positive we’re not talking about your weaknesses? I said. That, and most importantly, is it unique?

And if the criteria that you’re defining yourself and your brand on gets checkmarks on all 3 of those things, it’s probably worth worth reinforcing. And then you start to think about, how can I reinforce that?

Does that help, Celine? It does. And this is probably not. I want to jump right in and say all these things sort of like, you know, as a consumer packaged goods person. It’s like I can say certain things, but it’s how am I actually perceived? Right? So the things I say, if they don’t match also how I’m felt about when I leave the room. Then there’s a disconnect, and there’s a certain level of self-awareness here where, like, you’re hoping that the person is authentic and connecting all of this. But I look forward to reading the book that you write. You just said one of my favorite words. I just want to riff on that for a second. You said self-awareness. So self-awareness is also one of my favorite topics. It’s related to personal branding. A lot of people think they’ll say to me, I’m very self-aware. and I’m like not sure when most of us maybe not. Most of us. When many of us think about self-awareness, we think about like I’m thinking about what I’m going to say. I am conscious I’m aware of myself, right? I’m conscious of what I’m thinking. I’m conscious of how I’m feeling.

There really are depending on what literature you’re reading. 2, I think, 2 most important types of self-awareness. There’s internal and external. So when most people say, I’m self-aware, they mean internally, they’re like, I’m conscious of being conscious. I’m conscious of how I look. I’m conscious of what I’m thinking, what I’m feeling. External self-awareness is actually at least as important right, external self-awareness is, are you aware of what’s going on around you? And, more importantly, are you aware of your influence on other people, and even how they perceive you. So that’s how it relates to personal branding. Right? So it’s like looking at body language. It’s asking questions that are important, getting clarity on what other people are perceiving, not just about your message, but actually about you.

Tanya has a question patiently. Have your hand raised there. you’re on mute, or did you just unraise your hand? Hi, Andrea, thanks for taking my question. I have a question about strategically developing your quality network, like, I understand the concept. And I think it’s very important, absolutely. And building authentic relationship is important But how do you go about it? For example, I’m in a job now, and I want to look at other opportunities. And I do want to develop a network outside the realm of where I’m working. Help me get ideas here.

So 1st of all, almost no matter what, even if you’re not on the job market you want to make. Yes, your default. In other words, if you’re ever invited to an event, or even something like this, where you’re going to see other names and people just make. Yes, your default. In other words, there has to be a really good reason why you wouldn’t say yes. I’m guessing you’re already doing that, Tanya. But actually, even as an extrovert, I can tell you it takes energy to get dressed up and go to the event and whatever. And sometimes I’d rather just sit at home and read my book, whatever. So make yes, your default. That’s 1 thing in terms of strategically developing your network. It is. It is about getting out there. But it’s also thinking about who’s in your network. And who are you going to go after? So a couple of years ago, not a couple years ago, maybe 5 or 6 years ago, I realized personally and professionally, of course, I mean, I have a book club that I’m friends with, and women that I work out with, and whatever. But outside of that, my network was really consumer, packaged goods, marketers, and academics and coaches. It was like 3 buckets, and outside of that there was really nobody in my network, right? And so I was like, Oh, that’s not good. So the second thing I would say to you, Tanya is, go for diversity and go for diversity across every criteria you can think of so young and old, right in your city and outside of your city, in your industry and outside of your industry, in your function, and outside of your function, maybe the same gender as you, the other gender whatever like, think about any criteria and just go for diversity. There’s tons of research that shows a quality network is not just the quality relationships, right? It’s the diversity of who’s in your network. So if you’re an artist and you’re only hanging out with artists, I don’t know how you’re going to sell, or if you’re a Podcaster, and you’re, I mean Podcasters. Do listen to podcasts. But you want you want to network with other people as well as my point. Okay, so get out strategically, like, go to events and meet people outside of your area and seek diversity across all of those criteria and more. And if you are in an organization, just this is the other part of strategic networking, especially if you’re working in a big company. you want to make sure that you have mentors. I say that with an S in brackets at least one mentor inside or outside of your organization, that you can be really open and honest with you also want to make sure that you have ideally, you have a sponsor. There’s tons of research that shows that the people that are being pulled up in their organization. Have someone who’s a level or 2 or 3 ahead of them, who they share their best work with. You’re providing them with evidence. Who’s going to help you get promoted. I love talking about strategic networking, as you can probably tell.

I hope that helps Tanya.

All right, if that’s it, I want to say thank you so much. I hope that you are inspired with at least one of the 5 ways to kickstart your personal brand in 2025. If you have any questions. I’m happy to answer them. You can email me. I’m at [email protected] again super easy to remember, 

I hope to see all of you on Linkedin. And like, I said, if you have any questions you can email me, or you can also DM, me on Linkedin.

Talk soon, bye.

The post 5 Ways to Kickstart Your Personal BRAND (ep.181) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Optimizing your voice means sounding like your best self – not someone else! Andrea talks with vocal coach and voice actor Claire Fry to understand why you should focus on your unique voiceprint—rather than imitating others—and how to support your voice through techniques like deep breathing and smiling. They also cover practical tips for enhancing your voice and presence in online meetings.

Are you ready?

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #180 – Optimizing your Voice with Claire Fry.

Claire is a voice actor and a vocal coach. In addition to having a beautiful voice and expertise on the subject, Claire is also witty and fun. Her linkedin posts often make me chuckle. Like the time she had to get her car towed and she took a selfie of her and the tow truck driver. She posted the photo of the two of them in the front seat of the tow truck, and of course, she shared some life lessons. Anyway, I encourage you to follow Claire.  You can find her coordinates in the shownotes.

You can find my coordinates there too! In case we haven’t met, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m an executive communication coach at Tak About Talk. Please just call me Andrea. I coach executives like you to improve your communication skills so you can communicate with confidence, establish credibility, and ultimately achieve your career goals. That’s our objective. To learn more about me and what I do, head over to talkabouttalk.com where you can read about my 1:1 private coaching, small group bootcamps, keynote speeches, and corporate workshops. Plus there are a bunch of free resources, including my free communication skills coaching newsletter, and the archetypes quiz. 

In case you haven’t taken the archetypes quiz yet, I hope you will. This can help you establish your professional identity. Im a Sage and a Magician.  If I had to guess, I’d say Claire is a Citizen or maybe a Caregiver, AND a Jester. 

OK – in my conversation with Claire Fry, which you’re about to hear, you’re going to learn how to use your best voice. If youre like many people, you might not think about your voice. But here’s the thing: whether its online, in person or on the phone, your voice says a lot about you. 

There are some relatively easy things you can do to optimize the sound of your voice. Yes, of course, there’s the importance of breathing.  Breathing is key. But there’s a lot more to your voice than just breathing, as youre about to hear. 

At the end, after the interview, I’ll summarize with three important learnings that I want to reinforce for you. And you will probably be surprised about these learnings. Some mindsets and tactics that will definitely help you use your best voice. 

Now, let me introduce Claire and then we’ll get right into this.

Claire Fry is a veteran voice actor with over 20 years experience, and a vocal coach with a talent is for connecting, persuading, and demanding attention with her voice. She teaches people and teams to do the same –connect, persuade, and demand attention with their voices.

Through her firm, Vocal Confidence, Claire conducts webinars, workshops, keynotes and 1:1 coaching. She trains teams and leaders across the globe at organizations including Google, HubSpot, Amazon, Apple, McKinsey, Goldman Sachs, Stanford University…and many more.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: thank you so much, Claire, for being here today to talk with me and the talk about talk listeners, about our voices.

Claire Fry: Thank you so much for having me, Andrea. I’m so excited to get into it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Let’s start. Really, General, I’m wondering if you can share with us what you think. Some of the most important things are that we can do to improve the sound of our voices.

Claire Fry: Support, we can support our voices. So this is something that I think is so key, and people come to me because they say I want to sound more confident, or I want to sound more powerful, or I want my voice to sound deeper, and what it actually all comes down to is breath support.

So if I start from a nice deep breath, you can hear how rich and full and supported my voice sounds if I keep talking for a while you’ll hear how it starts to thin out a little bit, and now you’re getting not quite as much of my voice, and if I keep going I’ll end up in my vocal fry down here at the bottom. So that vocal fry is that telltale sign that I don’t have enough breath support for full phonation. You’re not getting my full voice. so I think so many of the things that people associate with having a good voice, a powerful voice, a confident voice. What they really mean is a supported voice. So that’s 1 of the 1st things that I work on with people is. hey? Your voice sounds different when you’ve got some breath behind it. So let’s learn how to do that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So supporting your voice is is synonymous with putting breath behind it.

Does that just mean taking a deep breath? I’m sure it’s more than that.

Claire Fry: It’s taking a deep breath, but it’s also grounding your voice right? So a lot of the time, especially when we’re nervous. We’re kind of speaking from our throat. You can hear where I’m pushing from my throat. And sometimes when people want to achieve volume, they push from there as well. Right. We get kind of a little bit of a yelling sound, and it’s all coming from the throat versus if I put it down in my belly and use that diaphragm for support.

This is the kind of volume and power you can get from there. But it’s a much freer, more open sound. So it’s definitely about taking that time to fill up with breath beforehand. But it’s also about moving that center of gravity down into the belly, so that we’re not all up here in our throat or breathing from our chest, but everything’s sort of down and grounded and powerful.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I’m just going to take a second and say to the listeners, if you’re not watching us on Youtube. I suggest you switch over to Youtube. So you can see what Claire’s doing. She’s pointing to her throat. She’s pointing to her chest and her lungs right.

Just if you could coach us just for a minute, because, as you’re going through this, I’m thinking, well, maybe you can coach me on this right like, how do I think about my diaphragm.

Claire Fry: Let’s do it together. You want to take a few seconds. Yeah. So one hand on your belly and one hand on the small of your back, Andrea, and what we’re going to do is we’re going to breathe in, and we’re going to try and move both of those hands outward.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Claire Fry: So I’m gonna be vulnerable and show you my tummy for a second. Just so you can see what I’m talking about.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love this.

Claire Fry: Hand on the belly, hand on the back. We’re breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth. and you can see how both of those hands are moving as we do it, right.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yep.

Claire Fry: So now let’s kind of connect that to speech, Andrea. If I told you you’re walking along the street, and you see a friend across the street. You see me across the street, and you    recognize me, and you just yell to get my attention, you might say, Oh, hey, Claire.  give that a try. Just do that out loud.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hey! Claire.

Claire Fry: Yeah, yeah. So where did you feel that when you just did it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Well, I think because I was conscious of my belly, I felt my belly expand, and then I definitely felt it up here.

Claire Fry: So even just. And I’m so glad you said that, because even just doing this once, just taking the breath in gives us that consciousness of oh, wait! I’ve got all that support down there. I’ve got all that capacity down there. So when we yell, we tend to go here we tend to go, hey, Claire? So I’m going to have you do it again. But this time really focus on you can even use your hands like you’re squeezing an accordion.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Claire Fry: Pushing the breath from below. So it’s more like, Hey, Claire.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hey! Claire.

Claire Fry: Oh, nice Andrea! Nice! Did you feel that difference in how you’re using your instrument? There.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I definitely did. I was pushing my abdomen in and my back in at the same time with my 2 hands. I also felt like I might have cheated a little bit, and tried to make it sound deeper.

Claire Fry: Did you catch? I did catch that. And that’s a very, very common thing to do, especially for women who, I think, are conditioned, socialized to think of deeper voices as being associated with authority. So if you think about the voice that we put on when someone says, Oh, I want you to sound really serious, like, okay, this is my serious voice, right? Like we associate deeper voices. And and so does everybody. That’s what the studies show. Right. We associate deeper voices with authority, credibility all these things.

Claire Fry: So I’m so glad you brought that up because one of the things I work on with women is. I don’t want to pick on her specifically, but not pulling in Elizabeth Holmes right? Not doing that thing where we do like a fake deep voice to sound a little more like a dude, but instead, to keep our voice at the pitch where it wants to be, but have more support behind it right, have more of that grounding, have more of that power behind it, so that we are supporting our voice in its natural placement, and not squashing it down.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So just to paraphrase, would you agree that we can maintain our natural pitch. but improve the credibility of the sound of our voice by being more supported by thinking about about our diaphragm. and and what and what else do I need to do to to?

It’s not coming from my throat. Right? It’s coming from my abdomen.

Claire Fry: Yeah. And it doesn’t have to be about doing it in the moment. I don’t want people trying to do their job and also thinking about their diaphragm at the same time. That’s that’s a pretty heavy lift. But even just getting in the habit of taking that deep breath into the belly before the meeting. so I always say, do it on the transitions, do it before the podcast interview, do it before you press, join on the zoom, call before you step out on stage. That’s your moment to okay, right? That’s where my breath is. That’s where my voice is. And then.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Let it.

Claire Fry: Go. But we’ll kind of automatically make that adjustment.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, so this is a 1. i’m going to move my camera back up to my face and not my abdomen. This is a wonderful, I think habit for us all to acquire and adopt. before every important meeting, before I press record to record a podcast before I go into a keynote speech or a workshop, even a coaching session. Wherever you’re going into, maybe a high stakes meeting or presentation.

I already encourage people to do slow, deep breathing, and I say, particularly on the exhale. This is what the research that I’ve been hearing is inhale completely and then slow exhale. And now I will just add to that, put your hands on your belly and your lower back, and feel the expansion as you’re inhaling, and then lengthen your exhale and research shows that this actually changes your blood chemistry. Right? It makes you less fight flight, or freeze before these high stakes moments. So I’m going to try that. And I’m going to encourage everyone to do that, too.

I have another question that’s really a bit tactical, but it’s something that I, speaking of, you know, when I’m recording a podcast. I’ve heard that if you smile when you’re talking. even though it might seem silly, I’m talking into a microphone and and recording a podcast episode by myself. There’s no one else in the room that it changes the sound of your voice is that true.

Claire Fry: Yes, it’s true. You can hear it right? You can hear it on the phone with your mom, or talking to your partner from the other room like you can hear smile in the voice. It it’s the the way that the muscles engage changes the way that the voice interacts right and expresses itself so. Yes, we can hear smile where I always think we want to be careful. Especially working with women in the workplace. Is this idea of smile more. If you want people to like you to listen to you, to engage with you. Right? So smile shows up in voice. It’s not, however, the only way to in voice over we’d call it warming up your voice right? So it’s not the only way to warm up your voice. It doesn’t have to be a giant smile on your face. Some of this can be even just the vocabulary we use. We can warm up our vocabulary if we don’t feel like having a giant smile plastered on our face all the time. and it’s very easy to over index on smile really easy. So this is something I discovered Andrea when I 1st started doing voiceover because one of my 1st voiceover classes I was there in the studio and there was a group of us, and we were all doing a pampers. Commercial and person after person would get in the booth, and the director would say, Okay, now do it and smile right. This is a pampers. We need more smile great. So that’s my turn, and I get in the booth. And I put on this giant smile, and I’m like when your baby needs the best care. And it was way too much. because my voice already has smile in it. Even when I’m not smiling. That’s just part of my voice print. My voice is warm, it does have smile that’s not good or bad. There’s no value judgment there, that’s just a descriptor of what my voice has in it. So I have to be careful about not over indexing on smile, because it can get to be way too much. Really fast, right? If I add, smile on top of smiles like putting a hat on a hat. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: It’s actually part of your personal brand is not just the fact that you’re a voice coach, but that your voice sounds happy, and you are generally a positive and happy person, so we’ll get into the personal branding. But I want to go back. You said the word warm up, and I wanted to clarify. You don’t mean warm up, as in preparing or warming up, you mean warm up as in sounding warm.

Claire Fry: That’s exactly what I mean. So like a painter would add a little bit of orange or red to warm up the tones in a painting locally. I’m talking about the things that we do, and we don’t need to get too down the rabbit hole. But there are various muscles that we use. Some of it could just be crinkling, the eyes, crinkling our eyes up creates a warmth as well as smile as well as different ways. We use it. So God, we’re talking about creating warmth in the voice.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, okay. so you were talking about the impact. That smiling, turning, literally turning, or physically, I suppose, turning up the corners of your mouth affects how your, how your voice sounds, of course, because it changes the physical structure of where your voice is coming through. That’s the non technical way of.

Claire Fry: No, this is perfect. That’s exactly it. Okay.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I want to talk about the difference between how your voice may show up, and we could get into equipment. We could get into all sorts of things online versus in person.

Claire Fry: And the smiling thing really, really made me think about this.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I watched a video of me being interviewed by someone a couple years ago, and I was like, I really don’t look very friendly.When I looked at myself really carefully, when I slowed it down, and really looked at myself carefully, which, by the way, is very painful. I was like, it’s not that I’m scowling, but I’m not smiling. And then I had this conversation with a couple of other people online. There’s the the. It’s almost like the camera reduces the the happiness of of your appearance. It makes you. It downgrades your emotional tone visually so. And I was talking to a senior executive a couple weeks ago, and he told me that his communication team told him, when you’re on camera, even when you’re not speaking. You need to be ear to ear, smiling, because otherwise you look like you’re not happy. And I said, That’s what I noticed of myself on screen as well. So I mean, that’s more of a physical appearance. Difference between on person in person versus virtually. But what about our voices in person versus virtually.

Claire Fry: No, I think that’s a direct analog. I love that. It’s a flattening medium. right? So it’s flattening in terms of visual presentation. And it’s flattening in terms of vocal presentation as well, especially if people are using second 3rd rate equipment, which is not picking up all of the tones and gradations in voice, the way that we would be able to do if we were in the room together.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Claire Fry: Absolutely. I want to come back to the looking at yourself on screen thing in one second. But I’ll say for voice. people can be so much louder than they think they can. So part of that is that any piece of video software you’re using, whether that’s zoom Google meet teams, any of it all has built in limiters. which is just a way of saying it’s automatically bringing down the peaks of your voice right? So you can get so much louder than you think. It’s often louder than you would if you were in the room with these people. And the way it translates over video is as energy.

It translates as passion, engagement, excitement, right? Like all these positive things. So we feel like we’re being way, too. I feel like I’m being way too loud right now. I bet it doesn’t sound.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Not allowed no.

Claire Fry: You.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: No, it sounds like you’re excited and enthusiastic. Yes.

Claire Fry: So the software is bringing it all down. So I think people really need to understand that because I think it feels so vulnerable in some ways.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: When we’re in video calls and people just.

Claire Fry: Shrink everything about themselves right to be as neutral as possible because it does feel so vulnerable. But actually, we need to get bigger. We need to use more notes, more melody, more.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: He does.

Claire Fry: And what blessing that will be to the people who are listening to us.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Ok, so back to the point that you made before about you can always go too far. Right? You can go too far in trying to make your voice deeper in whatever we’re recommending here. That said, I. Just want to say, Claire, this insight is huge.

Thank you. So the fact that the screen and in virtual meetings, basically every way that you’re communicating, which is, I guess, auditory and visual things are flattened. So your facial expression is flattened. So smile more.

I’ve even heard that if you’re on screen you should wear more makeup than you would if right, I’m I’m seeing you nod. Okay. So, whatever whatever you normally do, you need to amplify and in terms of your voice. So this is, I guess, a segue into some recommendations that you can give to us. I’ve heard that to optimize the sound of our voice, one of the things that we can seek is variation, variation in pitch, in tone in cadence, and so on. And and I would hypothesize that you would suggest that we should do that even more. So when we’re virtual or online as opposed to when we’re in person.

Claire Fry: Absolutely cadence, intonation, just the number of notes that we are using. And again, our 1st instinct seems to be to shrink. All of that when you ask people, or when more accurately, when someone is telling themselves in their mental script, I need to sound professional. The 1st thing to go is the notes.

The 1st thing they start doing is using fewer notes and saying, This is my professional voice. This is my buttoned down, giving it to you straight. Kind of what? Right? Because it’s safe. You’re safe there. You feel safe there. But actually, it’s such a barrier to people being able to hear you follow you and engage with you because you’re not giving all those verbal signals that roadmap that helps people to follow you when you’re speaking. So we flatten it out. And it’s the worst thing that we could do. and we over. So I’m sure this is something that you’ve come across as well. This idea of negativity bias in communication.

So when we hear someone speaking and we’re not getting clues from them. From their tone of voice.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: We don’t know.

Claire Fry: They’re happy. We don’t know if they’re sad. We don’t know if they’re excited, we automatically assign negative qualities. We go. Oh, well, they’re mad at me. Oh, they’re frustrated! Oh, they’re bored, or they’re whatever right. So we need to be sending that really strong signal all the time. And I think that’s true for face as well.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Claire Fry: That we need to be sending that signal all the time.

There was an interesting study that came out last year. I don’t know if you came across this that we over attribute emotionality to our own neutral face when we see ourselves on screen. Yeah, I’ve memorized that that because I wanted to get it exactly.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Say it again, say it again we.

Claire Fry: When we yeah. So when we see our own face on screen, when we’re looking at our own face, we over attribute emotionality to our own neutral face. So even when our face is actually neutral in expression we read it as emotional and usually negative.

So this is that thing where we go. Oh, why do I look like I’m mad, or why do I look like right? Right? But it’s it’s it’s a little bit in our heads, because we always have this negativity bias when it comes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And it might be amplified, or the effect might be exaggerated. If it’s online. Right? Was the research virtual.

Claire Fry: Yes, exactly. It was entirely virtual. And it’s why I always tell people. If they’re speaking, they should have their self view off online always.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s a big tip. That’s a big one, Claire.

Claire Fry: Always, always, always. Because if you see your own face 1st of all, it’s the most distracting thing you could possibly have on your screen. I don’t care what your relationship is with your face. It doesn’t matter. You’re always looking at it right? You’re flicking over. You’re checking in. That’s taking you out of connection with your audience, which is where that attention should be. And we’re judging ourselves. We’re doing this over attributing of emotionality. We’re doing all these things, and it makes us feel like we’re on stage. It lights up the same part of your brain as if you were performing. So these are all impediments to communication. Yeah, I think.

Turn off the self view. Take you don’t need it. You’ve never walked into a conference room, sat down, pulled out a mirror, and stared at yourself.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: True. True. So so, Claire, I always adjust my, the, you know the Zoom screen or the Microsoft teams screen, whatever it is. so that I’m on the bottom, and the people the other people are at the top closer to the camera, and I and I don’t look at myself. But you’re saying, take it to the next level and just remove yourself from your view. Okay.

Claire Fry: It’s easy to do. It’s just a click of a button, and everyone can see you. But you can’t see yourself but what you’re doing. Andrea is so smart when you always want to put your audience as close to that camera as possible. Right? So we get that eye contact.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Your face right now is right below the camera.

Claire Fry: This, too. It’s almost like we thought about this check.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s amazing. Okay, I’d love to dig a little bit more into gender differences. You mentioned that women in particular may try to make their voices sound deeper. I would guess men probably do too, like you said. We all hear this anecdotally in society, and it’s reinforced that we attribute deep voices to power, status, authority, all of those leadership qualities.

Right? What? What gender differences do you come across in your work with your clients that you might want to mention here.

Claire Fry: Hmm, interesting. Yeah, it’s not. It’s not a crazy thing to do right. Which is why I said before, I don’t. There’s plenty of reasons to rag on Elizabeth Holmes, but lowering her voice, is not one of them that’s completely understandable, especially if you’re working in a male dominated field because it’s true people prefer, I think, in the last 20 Presidential races we’ve elected the person with the deeper voice every time. But one or something like that, right like this is just a thing. This is a thing that we do.

So what’s a woman to do right? And you know, as you said, there are certainly men with higher pitched voices who, I’m sure, are as aware of this. But I’m going to talk specifically about people who are assigned female at birth. and therefore have smaller larynxes, smaller voice boxes. and voices that are higher pitched. So, generally speaking, there’s a little less of a resonating chamber. so we the voices don’t have quite as much power to them. We don’t have quite as much resonance to them, and we have that that slightly higher pitch. So I’m I don’t want to be boring, but I have to go back to the breath part right? Because here’s the thing. It’s it’s understandable to want to lower your voice, but it doesn’t.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: We’re.

Claire Fry: Because it’s just not how your instrument is put together. It’s trying to make flute sound like an oboe right? Like it’s it’s just not the way that it’s constructed so ultimately the thing that is going to best serve us in terms of getting heard, in taking up space with our voices, and having a level playing field with the men. is putting a little more energy behind it, a little more breath behind it. And hey, maybe get a really good microphone.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Claire Fry: Right, because your virtual meetings, if you have a good microphone that’s gonna automatically bring your voice higher in the mix. So now it’s going to be more present in people’s ears? And why not take every advantage you possibly can?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Claire Fry: Yeah, in voice over, we call it cut through that quality of making people sit up and pay attention when you speak. So let’s let’s use everything like everything in our arsenal.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, I’ve been in plenty of meetings where you know I there say, there’s 5 people in the meeting and 3 people talk. And then the 4th person speaks for the 1st time, and you’re like what your brain you you just sit up and pay attention right like snap to it because. And then you say, they’re the one that has the professional. Whatever podcasting equipment, it doesn’t have to be professional podcasting equipment like, you can get a little microphone that sits on your desk on a tiny little tripod, right? And and it’ll make all the difference in the world. So that’s a great point. Yeah. so true. And I don’t think it’s as much of investment as people think right. I’m using.

Claire Fry: This is an audio technica 2020. It’s $79, and it plugs directly into the USB port of my computer, right? This is not some gigantic and no one’s dropping thousands of dollars on a Neumann professional microphone right? Like.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Claire Fry: Just something simple, something.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: It’s a little thing that can make a big difference.

Claire Fry: It really does, and then it cuts down on the amount of echo in your room. Because I think this is the other thing people don’t realize it’s not about the microphone just boosting your voice. It’s about directionality. So when people are using the microphones that are built into their laptops that microphone is picking up your voice, but it’s also picking up every reflection. every echo of your voice, as it bounces around your room, and it makes it sound like we’re underwater a little bit, you know, because you work in audio as well right know exactly what I’m talking about. I’m sure you’ve had guests where you had to deal with that to some extent or another, because people don’t realize how those reflections build up so something closer to your mouth just eliminates that whole issue.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I want to shift now to personal branding, and you made the comment that your voice sounds. I think you said as if you’re smiling, it’s warm because it sounds like you’re smiling. You have a natural smile in your voice. So do you want to talk a little bit about the unique sounds of our voices, how they can reinforce our personal brand and vice versa. If we think about our personal brand and then reverse engineer.

You know the process that I take my clients through step one is articulating or creating their personal brand. So coming up with 12 to 15 themes that really resonate with them their expertise, their passions, all different types of of themes. but that are positive and unique to them. And then we shift to communication, and I talk about virtually and in person, directly and indirectly, we are constantly reinforcing, or maybe contradicting these elements of our personal brand that we’ve identified. So maybe we’ll start there. Imagine that you’ve created this brand, and you want to be seen as a strong people leader. And you have a real growth mindset. And you’re also encouraging that in others. and then you’re and then I say, well, there, there’s direct or explicit ways that you can reinforce, that when you’re introducing yourself when you’re talking about your strengths. There’s also implicit ways like your voice. Right? So how can we think about this.

Claire Fry: I think what we’re talking about here is tone. So I’ll ask you if it’s okay. I’ll ask you a question, because this will come back around, I promise.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Claire Fry: One of the things that I think people think of when they think of personal brand, among other things is their visual presentation of self things like their wardrobe, and what they wear right.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: We call this, how you show up.

How you show up.

Claire Fry: I love that we need a verbal equivalent of that. How you, how you sound up, how you hear! We’ll figure.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Somebody sent me an article today that they said, What is your verbal brand? And I was like, that’s just the implicit communication that we talk about in my boot camps, and coaching all the time related to your voice.

Claire Fry: oh, I love that. I love that. So if someone were to come, to you with you know they’d, they’d gone through and created a collage of this visual style that really resonated for them. And it was extremely sleek Japanese inspired minimalist. But it wasn’t a good fit for their body type. for example, right? So there’s the brand we want. And then there’s sort of the raw material that we’re working with. I’m curious. What what advice would you give under those circumstances.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I would have gone back a step, and I would have said, You know, what are the themes? Right? So it it can include your geography. It it can include your, you know. As I said, your strengths and your passions, so I can’t imagine that you would end up identifying themes that are inconsistent with your physicality. Actually. So. So, by the way, your very question directly illustrates one of the biggest mistakes that I see people making, and it’s trying to communicate their brand before they’ve done the work of articulating it. And right they they go. They’re basically, if if you’re coming to me with your brand style guide. and you haven’t done the work of identifying what your what your brand is. You’re going to end up in trouble

right? Because it may be like you, said an aspirational visual aesthetic. That really is just something that you think is beautiful, but it has nothing to do with your unique brand.

Claire Fry: Oh, that is so cool! What a cool pro! I wanna go through that process with.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, let’s do it.

Claire Fry: Quiet. Let’s do it. Let’s do it. Let’s do it at some point that sounds amazing.

So I think, similarly. what I think the equivalent here is that sometimes people come to me and they send me Youtube videos of Ceos. Ted speakers and say, I want to sound like that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hmm.

Claire Fry: Well. that belongs to them. That’s their verbal style. We cannot take that and transplant that on yours, because there are. There’s your instrument. There are physical limitations. There are all of these parts of our voice print right, and that might be things something like natural smile, or directness, or softness, or breathiness that could be an accent that could be the depth of your voice, the height of your voice, right like. There are all of these things about your voice. So rather than trying to make your voice do something like you, I always go back to the source which is the intention behind it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Beautiful.

Claire Fry: Because what we find is that when you’re asking the right questions questions about who is my audience?

Who am I talking to? What’s my relationship to them. And what’s the main message I want to get across.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Claire Fry: Your tone will follow every single time. So it’s not about creating some tone right to your point. This sort of external focused. This is what I want to sound like. It’s this is how I serve this message for these people.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Claire Fry: That’s going to be the most effective way every time. So we want to work from the inside out, not the outside in.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Claire Fry: Yeah, which I think resonates very much with what you were.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Very much, very much, Claire. I think you and I need to collaborate on this. There’s so much opportunity here. I feel like the sound of your voice, of your you keep saying instrument, the sound of your instrument as a voice could actually be, input to step one which is creating your brand. But then it also is part of step 2, right? Which is the communication. So it’s step one and step 2. I love that. That’s a that’s a big insight. There are probably other elements of your brand that are that way, too. Yeah, wow. So for example, your physical stature, right?

It is an input to your brand themes. But it also is then how you can reinforce and communicate your brand theme. So okay.

Claire Fry: And I think this speaks so much to this idea of authenticity that I think we’re always circling around in communication because people say, what’s okay? Well, what’s my authentic voice? Is that how I sound with my best girlfriends when we’re hanging out drinking wine together, and your authentic voice is not your lowest energy voice.

Do you know what I mean? Like those are not the same thing. So the metaphor I always use with people is, imagine your wardrobe so ideally. Everything in your wardrobe is something chosen by you that reflects to use your language that reflects your brand. But you’re going to pick different things for different occasions. So if you know you’re giving a keynote, you’re picking a different outfit than if you’re spending a day at the beach or going out to a concert with friends. Those are different outfits, but they come from the same wardrobe.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Beautiful.

Claire Fry: Same with voice. Right? We are using different aspects of voice that are suitable for different occasions. But it’s not inauthentic, right? That doesn’t make it fake that we’re switching our voice, depending on the context. That’s just picking the best tool for the job.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love this metaphor. I have to be honest with you, Claire. It’s the second time I’ve heard the metaphor from a guest that I respected very much. The 1st time I heard this was from Ron Tite the author of this book think, do, say, and and other books as well. He brought that up when we were talking about personal branding. I love it in the context of using your voice. 

Claire Fry: I love it well, 1st of all, I need to listen to that episode because I love it right like that means there’s something true. There, if a few of us are running around and have independently come to this idea because I’m a voice actor, I use the word modulated. So it’s modulating your voice for different.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Notifications.

Claire Fry: One example would be in voiceover, we treat radio scripts really differently from TV scripts. because in television or any visual medium. our voice is there to support the visuals? We are not the main attraction, but if it’s a radio spot. our voice is the whole shebang right? Like it’s the entirety of the delivery mechanism for the message. So the way you modulate your voice is really different for those 2 media.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, before we get to the 3 rapid fire questions, I just want to conclude here by asking what I’m guessing a lot of people would would ask you in a coaching session, which is what’s the best way to prepare for a high stakes

event where I’m going to be on stage. I’m saying this in in air quotes it could be literally on stage behind a podium with a mic, or it might just be standing up in front of a group. Or it might even be. you know, when you’re called on in a really important meeting with important stakeholders around. what can we do to improve or optimize the sound of our voice when we’re in particular feeling nervous and anxious.

Claire Fry: Take a deep breath.

No, I know I no, I know like trying to find. I need to go to the Thesaurus and find other ways to say, Take but take a deep. It’s that especially so. I’m going to say this. I’m going to say there’s 2 different things here. One is that if it’s something that you’re preparing for, if you are going out on, if you’re giving a presentation, warm up your voice. do a voice Warmup, do some lip trills.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hey!

Claire Fry: Do some yawns because you’ve got your content. You’ve got your slides. It does not benefit you to keep going over it over and over again. So take a break from all of that, and just do something to get in your body and get in your voice and know you’re doing something that’s going to help you sound better.

How great is that? That’s that’s like a that’s doing 2 for the price of one when we are on the spot when we’re asked a question. You know this fight flight or freeze right? The 1st thing that happens is we feel pressure to start talking right away. And what we have to learn to do is to fight that impulse.

Hmm, okay. we feel like, Oh, someone just asked me a question. And now I have to start talking right away, or I’m gonna look like I don’t know what I’m talking about, and we end up using more words with less impact instead of taking that beat and waiting to start talking until we feel ready. So yeah, taking the beat, taking the breath and warming up your voice whenever you have a chance to do so.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love that. Okay? So take a deep breath. Trills yawns. You didn’t say, take a sip of water. I’m going to guess you assumed we were already well hydrated.

Claire Fry: I’m making that assumption. Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay? And then when we when we’re in the moment, the power of pausing. And you know, I talked with someone about this recently, I said, there’s you know, this. This idea of the power pausing has become sort of a like a common thing that that people are sharing because we race to fill the silence. As you said, right, someone. All eyes are on you, and you feel like you need to fill that silence right away. Otherwise people are going to make assumptions that you don’t know what you’re saying. Blah blah! Right?

Actually, you will appear more confident if you nod and take a moment, and then people will like lean in. What is she going to say? Right.

Claire Fry: That’s the power move it really is. And then pausing at the end in voiceover we call it letting the dust settle. You know what that is, because you’ve heard it a million times. There are some things money can’t buy for everything else.

There’s mastercard right, and you give up. It’s the moment. Right? It’s that moment. And it’s so effective. And yeah, just give giving your words the weight that they deserve.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, my friends at Mastercard are going to love that. You shared that, Claire. Amazing? All right, I’m going to move on to the 5 rapid fire questions. Now, are you ready?

Claire Fry: I’m ready.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Question number one, are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Claire Fry: Oh, I’m such an extrovert, but I’m an extrovert who doesn’t love talking about myself. I’m just endlessly curious about other people, so my husband will tell you I’m a nightmare to bring to a cocktail party, because I will. Just. My favorite place is a cocktail party, where I don’t know a single person there. I just walk up to people, and I just start asking questions. It’s it’s my favorite.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay. So, Claire, I’m also an extrovert. And and most people on the podcast usually tell me that they are an introvert, but they have become more extroverted that it’s this whole thing, anyway. I love that you are. I am an extrovert.

You also, I think, have a superpower based on what you just shared, because there’s research that shows that introverts are better listeners. But you shared that. You have this innate curiosity about people. So if you’re an extrovert. You’re you’re socially comfortable. You’re getting energized by being around people, and you’re probably asking them questions and listening. Amazing.

Claire Fry: I like that framing. I’ll take that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Tell your husband, you have a superpower. Okay.

Claire Fry: Ha! Ha! It’s true, honey, I’m not a nightmare to bring to cocktail party.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You can never.

Claire Fry: Get me out of there right? That’s the problem.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, that’s awesome. Okay? Question number 2, what are your communication? Pet? Peeves?

Claire Fry: I really do not like it when people read something that has been written and they throw it away. So I, for example, if you. You would never do this. But if someone gave you their introduction to read, and you’re like. so Claire Fry is a communications coach who has worked with executives from lots of right. That reedy tone of voice, instead of putting in that little extra effort to bring it to life to make it sound like your words. Yeah, it drives me crazy when people don’t put in the effort to do that and just throw it away like it’s that Yada Yada kind of cadence.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So, Claire, you’re reminding me of a question that I get a lot that I have an opinion about. But I’d love to hear yours. It’s a little bit off topic from your voice per se. But what do you say about cue cards generally.

Claire Fry: I always encourage people to work off bullet points and not word for word scripts, and this is because I am a trained professional who has been doing this for 20 years, and it’s still hard for me to make a written script sound like a real person talking. That is a hard thing to do. so I encourage people to set themselves up for a scenario where they can stay on track where they have guidance, but they can use their own words and their own attunement to the audience to deliver the message the way it’s going to best be heard.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You have no idea how happy that makes me, because that is exactly the answer that I say to the goal is not to get rid of the cue card. It’s to have the outline in front of you that you can reference if you need to. Yes, okay, okay. That wasn’t very rapid fire. But I’m really glad we went there. The 3rd and last rapid fire question, is there a book or a podcast or maybe both, that you find yourself recommending lately.

Claire Fry: Oh, that’s funny. People ask me this all the time, because everything everyone thinks I should not should have a podcast. But it’s strange that I don’t given that my medium is audio, and I do coaching. But I say, Matt, Abrahams is already making the podcast that I would make if I were to make one. So I just send people to him. So yes, the Matt Abrahams. I think it’s talk. Think fast, talk smart, yeah. fast talk smart. I just think there’s a i don’t agree with everyone he has on. I don’t even agree with everything that he says, but I just think it’s such an interesting and eclectic group of people talking about communication.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I got to get him on my podcast.

 Okay, amazing. 

And before I let you go, I just want to ask Claire, is there anything else you want to share with the talk about talk listeners, about optimizing the sounds of their voices.

Claire Fry: You know less about optimizing the sound of their voices, and more just an exhortation for people to sound like themselves. Hmm! Feel like that is the thing that I learned from doing voiceover training that inspired me to start this coaching practice. To begin with, which is your voice, is enough. It’s enough it is. You have everything that you need for it to do the job. You need it to do. So get out of your head. Stop worrying about what you’re supposed to sound like or what you think. Someone with this expertise should sound like and sound like yourself. but supported and strong and intentional.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Claire. I learned a lot, and I had fun. Thank you.

Claire Fry: Oh, thank you so much for having me, Andrea. This was such a delight.

Isn’t Claire great?  I hope you enjoyed that conversation as much as I did.  

OK – let me summarize now by reinforcing three main learnings that I hope you’ll take away with you from our conversation.

The first is the point that your best voice is YOUR best voice. (Not someone else’s)

Think about your voice print – the unique elements of your voice. Your voiceprint includes your pitch, your accent, your natural smile, your directness, your softness, your breathiness, the depth of your voice, the height of your voice, and a lot more.

(Claire talked about how her voice print has a natural smile in her voice)

When it comes to our voice, we want to work from the inside out, not the outside in.

Instead of trying to sound like someone else, we should focus on sounding like our best self.  Hmm.  Sounds familiar.  This is exactly what I tell my clients when we’re working on their unique personal brand. Instead of copying others, focus on identifying YOUR unique strengths and passions.

SO for example, when it comes to your voice, If you’re a small person, your voice will sound different than someone with a barrel chest.

As Claire says: consider your instrument – don’t try to make a flute sound like an oboe.

So that’s the first thing – instead of trying to sound like someone else, we should seek to optimize our own best voice.

How do you do that?  This is the second point.

Claire talked a lot about SUPPORTING our voice.

This, of course, is attained through our breathe. Deep breathing.

Using your diaphragm.  

And depending on the context, also by smiling. People can hear your smile.

You can warm up your voice with a smile.

But of course, be careful you dont go too far. 

Claire talked about how you can over-index on things – there’s a happy medium. 

As an aside – that goes for just about all the communication skills advice you’ll hear 

Sometimes it’s easy to over-index.

So that’s the second point – supporting your voice, primarily through breathe, and with other things like smiling.

The third and last point I want to reinforce is about optimizing your voice and your presence online. This was probably my favorite insight from my conversation with Claire.  We discussed several things you can do to warm up, to optimize your voice when youre in an online meeting.

The main thing to consider here is that online is a flattening medium. When we’re online,things look and sound flat. Mediocre. Audio software brings down the peaks. In other words, it makes us monotone – and that goes for both audio and video.  So – what should you do? You should amplify everything youre saying or doing online.  For example:

We also referenced a few other online meeting hacks for you:

And that is everything for this episode! Thanks again to Claire Fry.  You can find all of Claire’s coordinates in the shownotes for this episode.  And my coordinates are there too! 

I’d love to hear from you. Please connect with me on LinkedIn and send me a DM there.  Or you can conta0ct me through my website – talkabouttalk,com.

If you enjoyed this Talk About Talk podcast, please make sure you subscribe. And don’t forget – you can also WATCH Talk About Talk on our YouTube channel – yes, you can WATCH the Talk about Talk podcast!  

Whether youre watching or listening, I want to say thank you for being here. 

Talk soon!

The post Optimizing Your VOICE with Claire Fry (ep.180) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

“The Portfolio Life” – Have you ever considered your personal interests and activities to be a portfolio?  A portfolio worth assessing and diversifying? In this interview with author Christina Wallace, you’ll learn about the four pillars of creating a portfolio life, how they might inform your personal brand, and three exercises to help you be more purposeful in your life – beyond what’s on your business card.

CHRISTINA WALLACE

CONNECT WITH ANDREA 

TRANSCRIPT

Have you ever considered this?  If you are 100% focused on your job and you lose your job, then of course you lose everything.  YIKES.

That voice, by the way, belongs to Christina Wallace, the author of a book I highly recommend, called “The Portfolio Life.”  I met Chistina a few months ago at a conference, where she gave a talk about her book. The exercises that Christina outlines in her book can change your life. This is definitely not an understatement.  Are you ready to learn more?

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #179, 

“The Portfolio Life and Your Personal Brand with Christina Wallace”

You’re about to hear my conversation with Christina, where you will learn about a framework and several exercises that will help you identify your personal priorities. You’ll also hear the full spectrum of emotion – from crying about my lost friend, to laughing out loud. 

Here’s an excerpt from her the book jacket fr “The Portfolio Life” that I think you’ll find compelling. Here’s what it says: 

Whether you’re sick of being told you’re worth is inextricably tied to your work, or that setting boundaries and protecting your personal life means you aren’t all in, this book will walk you step-by-step through the process of designing a strategy for the long-haul. Because you deserve rest, relationships, and a rewarding career – not someday, but today. After all, you only live once.

Yes, that’s pretty compelling

Of course, I always see these things through the lens of our respective personal brands. These exercise provide powerful insight into our true brands.  As you’ll hear me I admit to Christina, I assigned one of her exercises in a personal branding bootcamp that I ran recently. And it went exactly as she forecasted: the first part was easy.  Simple.  But then it got very difficult,  And of course, that where the magic happens. 

Let’s dive in. I’m going to interview Christina and then we’ll get right to the interview. After the interview as always, I will summarize with three main learnings that I want to reinforce for you. This time it will be three exercises that I hope you’ll try. Are you ready?

A self-described “human Venn diagram”, Christina Wallace has crafted a career at the intersection of business, technology, and the arts. She is currently a Senior Lecturer of entrepreneurship at Harvard Business School, an active angel investor, and a co-producer of Broadway musicals. Her latest book called “The Portfolio Life: How to Future-Proof Your Career, Avoid Burnout, and Build A Life Bigger Than Your Business Card” was published in 2023.  This is the book we reference in our conversation that you’re about to hear. You can find the link to this book in the shownotes for this episode. 

A serial entrepreneur, Christina has built businesses in ecommerce, edtech, and media. In 2019, she also co-authored, “New To Big: How Companies Can Create Like Entrepreneurs, Invest Like VCs, and Install a Permanent Operating System for Growth,”  and was the co-host of “The Limit Does Not Exist”, an iHeart podcast with millions of downloads over 3 seasons and 125 episodes.

In her free time, Christina sings with various chamber choirs, embarks on adventure travel, and is a mediocre endurance athlete. Yes, those are her words. Christina lives in Cambridge Massachusetts with her husband and their two children.

INTERVIEW

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Christina, for being here today to talk to us about the portfolio life.

Christina Wallace: Thank you for having me. I’m thrilled to be here.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So when I looked at the table of contents, Christina, I loved how you structured the book. You’ve got the 3 parts, the why we’re doing this, the what we’re doing and the how we’re doing it. And then you also present the 4 pillars. So I was wondering if you could start by sharing with the listeners what each of the 4 pillars represents.

Christina Wallace: Sure, when I was trying to ground this model in sort of a structure of like. what is it giving you right like you think about this from startup pitches all the time, or any sort of product like, stop telling me about the features.

Tell me about what problem it solves what it gives. You know the person who’s thinking about it. That’s how I came to these 4 pillars. It effectively says, here is why and how the portfolio. Life delivers on what it does for you. Number one. 

And I have experienced this. It was incredibly destabilizing, and I think because of that, many people stay in jobs longer than they would want to. They stay in entire career paths because they can’t imagine a version where they might have to reinvent themselves. And it’s just very, very like narrowing as you get older. And so it starts with this notion of like, how could you build an identity, define an identity even that it isn’t about how you monetize your time. And instead is based on these components of, like the world you live in the skills you have access to the networks you’re a part of, and build this out via a Venn diagram, as you see, sort of those intersections is where you have a unique perspective. and once you have that understanding of your identity, you can see that I’m more than one thing that gives you optionality pillar, 2 which says, like, you can always do more than one thing. You never are stuck.

If you can see that you have options and those options can be really small. They can be like, Hey, let’s find a different context for doing this work. You love the work you hate the company. Let’s find a different place and define very positively. What are you going toward? Not what are you running away from?

But in many other cases it’s bigger options. It’s you did this 1st season of life that was great. And now let’s zigzag. Let’s pull something else out of your Venn diagram and drive with that for the next decade. And so really understanding that like, basically, unless you’re on your deathbed, you still have options that you can pursue. But you have to see them right. And this becomes a lot about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.

And that brings us to the 3rd pillar, which is diversification.

That’s actually where I started the entire model. The portfolio life is very much based on this idea of a financial portfolio. Right? We think about how we diversify our financial portfolio. and we can allocate our assets and allowing us to take some risk. because you have to have risk in order to get returns.

But you can mitigate that risk through diversification by thinking about how can I?

Can? I, you know, invest here that won’t be correlated with that thing over there, and if one thing falls apart, the whole portfolio doesn’t fall apart. It’s the same way with our lives that the only way to survive the amount of disruption we are currently facing is to be diversified. There are so many moving pieces that we can’t foresee. We can’t plan for that. You can’t be linear about your strategy. So instead, how do you think about? Are there hobbies? And again, networks, relationships, side hustles, whatever that is. that both gives you something on a day-to-day basis. You’re not doing everything just because of doomsday. but by having sort of that diversified a base of activities and people and skills.

If and when disaster befalls your industry, your geography, your relationship, whatever you have other irons in the fire that you can, you can access. and ultimately that brings us to the 4th pillar. The point of this entire model is flexibility.

The generations that came before us, our parents, our grandparents.

On the one hand, they might have had it quote easier, right? A slightly less disruptive world, a slightly more predictable place, but I think they also were stuck on a linear path, whether they wanted to or not. You picked a thing, and then you did it for 40 years.

And I see the moments where I think my family would have really appreciated the idea, to reinvent themselves, or to take a different path for a different chapter of life, but that wasn’t an option for them. So as much as it can be annoying that we’re like everything is getting thrown up in the air every few years or every few weeks, even right like the world is changing and we can’t. We can’t ever have nice things at the same time it offers us this huge amount of flexibility.

That means we can build for a season of life. and when that season shifts, when the thing that we’ve built no longer serves us. You know we’ve got new friction that wasn’t there before rebalance your portfolio, so you can think about what’s that season when I have small children. That’s the season I’m in right now, or the season where I need to take care of my parents, or where I have a major health issue that I need to address or or I’m burnt out. And I need a sabbatical right? It allows us to bit really creative and flexible, about meeting our needs and allowing our goals and motives to change, which is just human nature.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love your term seasons. I think it’s I think it’s almost empowering right, because people might think, you know I’ve reached this. you know, pinnacle in my career. And then something happens. And they, I know they freak out people. I get these emails from people. Andrea, my professional brand. My identity is changing. Help, help. And I say. 1st of all congratulations, a breath, you’re going to be okay.

Christina Wallace: Oh, yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I think it’s fantastic. So with these 4 pillars, I’m hearing a couple things that that the benefit is personal in terms of your life satisfaction definitely, your career satisfaction, and probably even your life satisfaction. Right? So it is a shame that our parents weren’t thinking this way in previous generations.

Christina Wallace: Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of empathy for them where you’re kind of like you had to pick a thing at 16 or 22.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Christina Wallace: And the version of you at that stage maybe even wanted that thing deeply. And then you turned out to be moderately good at that thing in the best case scenario, and that thing is all you ever got to be. And you know I see the joy in many cases of my mother-in-law getting to retirement after a fabulous career as an executive, and realizing that, like A, she’s not dead yet. and has a ton to offer. And B. There was this whole piece of her that she hadn’t really been in touch with. Since college, which was art, art, history, and Spanish. She had studied them in college, she hadn’t touched them for her entire career, and now, at 70 something is retired and is like, I’m going to go. Be a docent at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, and I’m going to give tours in Spanish to tourists. There’s this whole piece of me that that had to be at a 0% allocation for a really long time. But I’m existing in this same world today and the world today, says I still have another season ahead, so I think as frustrating as it may have been for them in those seasons where they didn’t have that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Flexible.

Christina Wallace: The joy is, they’re still here, and this applies to them, too. And so, you know, I see a lot of people thinking this book is really applicable, for, you know, young graduates or people reaching new parent status or going through those transitions. But I think it’s just as relevant for folks at any stage of transition across a career.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So speaking of this transition, I’m thinking there are catalysts that may happen like retirement, or like being told.

You know you’ve kind of reached your cap in this organization.

Christina Wallace: Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Or your family role change, you become a parent, or you become an empty nester. There’s these catalysts that happen. But there’s also an opportunity, I think, for people when they read the portfolio life and really internalize it and act on it. To be proactive and to and to, you know, take advantage of this opportunity when you were talking about your mother-in-law, I was thinking I had a very. very dire conversation with a friend of mine that was dying of brain cancer.

Christina Wallace: Hmm.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And he said to me, I asked him if he had any advice for me, and he said. I, I just hope that before you are in the stage that I’m in, Andrea, that you will live your life and not have any regrets, and if there’s something right now that in the back of your mind. You’re thinking you should do.

Go do it for me, Andrea, and for you. Please do it. And I was like right away. I thought. you’re going to make me cry. No, you know. But you know what the thing was, though, Christina I had to paint. I literally went home and signed up for a painting class.

Christina Wallace: Yup!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So many of it. So, for your mother-in-law was painting for me. It was.

Christina Wallace: Also fainting.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: But we most of us have things.

Christina Wallace: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That we are.

Christina Wallace: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: What’s the word we’re hiding? We’re ignoring.

Christina Wallace: Yeah, I talk about the work of excavating right? There’s so much of who we are that has been there from the beginning. Right once you see these things about yourself, then you go back and you’re like.

Oh, I have a story from when I was 6 that my mom used to always tell. That is a perfect example of this exact thing. And you’re like, Oh, I’ve always been who I’ve always been. But as we grow up it’s good thing I’m not wearing mascara today.

As we grow up, we feel like, and in some cases are explicitly told. But in many cases this is self editing.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: We feel like we have to put those things away so that we can be serious and grow up.

Christina Wallace: And pick the things that are appropriate for the level of education, ambition, etc., that that we aspire to. and many of those things we put away as childish things, and what we, what we lose in doing that is, while it may be true. You were never going to have a career as a painter. I don’t know. I haven’t seen your work. There’s something brilliant that you get out of the act of painting that is separate from the value of the finished object. and when you decide that the value of the finished object you can’t monetize enough to pay your mortgage. you get rid of the entire practice of.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh!

Christina Wallace: And you lose something in that process. Which is why I think many of us, when we get to this, like, you know, sort of midlife crisis era. It’s because we have lost so many like limbs and attributes and elements of who we are, simply because in capitalism the outputs of that work wasn’t valuable.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow! You have no idea. Actually, you probably do have some idea of how much that resonates with me. And I can. I can hear, you know, my coaching clients saying, Yes, yes.

So in the work that I do with my clients on personal branding. This is a similar way of saying some of saying what you’re saying. I think I encourage them to really think deeply about their unique identity and not to follow the expected path. And I’ve said this like I feel like a million times, you can be a very strong B plus by copying others and following the expected path. But if you really want to knock it out of the park, if you really want to be successful and happy.

Then think deeply about your unique interests. So of the 4 pillars, I’d really like to focus on identity, because I think we can get. We can get some traction here.

Can you describe your Venn diagram and also what? What? Generally your I guess portfolio Venn diagram could or should look like.

Christina Wallace: Yes, absolutely. So. The Venn diagram I talk about sort of these 2. I love circles. All sorts of circles. So the Venn diagram, we obviously know, is like the intersection of various sets from set theory, intersection of various circles. I think of this as who you are and your portfolio is what you do.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Christina Wallace: So your Venn diagram, on the whole, is pretty static now. It can change over time. Certainly, as you develop new interests, they might show up in different ways, or as you start to see the expression of some of this work, you see, like, Oh, wow! This is actually part of a bigger picture. Let me kind of reframe. What’s in those buckets, those circles? But it’s pretty steady over time. Now. There are pieces of your Venn diagram you might not be using day in and day out. They might be at a 0% allocation in your portfolio. But it doesn’t change that. They are part of you. So I hear a lot of people in my I say in the very simplified version of my Venn diagram.

I’ve built a career at the intersection of business technology and the arts. So you go back and you look at I was a music, a very serious musician, a classical musician. And then I added theater as an actor and director, and now a producer to that, and tried some arts management. And then I went off to business school and got into the tech world. And I did startups and investing right like on the surface. The linear, you know, chronology makes no sense. But when you look at it in sort of these categories, you’re like, okay, I can see where those intersections gave you this. And these intersections gave you that and the joy of that is, you can start to see where there are intersections that you haven’t played in yet.

We were like, oh, maybe there’s opportunity there for me to take this information and that network and like find something interesting. So it can also point out opportunity that you haven’t considered. But I think in a broader, slightly less simplified Venn diagram. You know, I have industries. But I also have skills like storytelling.

You could argue. That’s part of arts. But I think it’s just part of communicating and communicating through story that I have found to be deeply relevant to who I am and how I experience the world and what I offer a room.

And that storytelling is written, it’s performative, it’s live. It’s recorded in all these different formats. And so, as a result, that actually makes me a pretty decent marketer. Right? So you can see how like the skill plus the business and the technology is like, oh, you could fit in in a marketing role at a startup.

But then there are also other things like, I’m a mediocre athlete, and I’m really quite serious about that. I’m a mediocre athlete. I’m not good, but I keep trying. I’m 6 feet tall. I should have been an athlete, and I just wasn’t for a lot of reasons, and for a long time I internalized again the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves.

I internalize this as like. I am not an athlete. I shouldn’t even try. And then, after my 1st startup failed and I was facing this crisis of identity.

I was like, you know what screw it. I am so bad at being bad at things like I won’t even try something if I think I’m going to be bad at it. That I’m going to just force myself to do something. I know I’m bad at which is running.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And so I took up long distance, running.

Christina Wallace: And I. You can’t escape the fact that you’re bad for a very you just one step in front of the other, and you’re like, oh, this sucks! This is taking forever! I’m exhausted, and I still to this day I’m a terrible runner. I’ll run marathons. They take 5 and a half hours. That’s nothing to brag about. But I keep doing it. And by continuing to show up 2 things happened. Number one, I actually started to get a little better. and I started to recognize all the ways in which investing in my body and my health and my movement really mattered for my overall happiness. Certainly, as I think about some of my longer term goals in life, a lot of that rests on staying in good health. and it’s not something you can take it like for granted at 40, the way you can at 25.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Christina Wallace: But the other thing it taught me was like I could change that story from I’m someone who succeeds to. I’m someone who shows up and works really hard. and that opens up a lot of worlds to me. It allows me to be an amateur at 41, when otherwise I would say, well, the boat has sailed. If I haven’t become an expert, I’m never going to right like a lot of these beliefs about who we are self imposed.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Christina Wallace: And sometimes they’re based on, you know, data from a childhood moment, or a teacher or a comment a partner had. Right? Like, I’m not saying we invented it whole cloth. but I would argue that a lot of this case the data has expired.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And we talk about this in startup world all the time. Right? How old is the data.

Christina Wallace: Have you refresh the data to make current conclusions. And so in a lot of cases, when I hear people say, Well, I’m not that. Oh, I’d be. I’d be terrible at that like, I can’t even think about that. I’m like, How do you know?

Yeah, how recent? Only have you tried.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: Would you like to go? Run some experiments and see if that’s still true?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So this sounds like a growth mindset, right? But it’s not just okay. I’m going to try and learn this. It’s changing your mind from. I can’t do that to. I’m at least going to give it a shot. and you just made me think of thing of something that again, personally that happened to me. 3 degrees in business.

I’ve taken plenty, of course.

Christina Wallace: Slight overachiever there. No day.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Well, it’s all business commerce, Mba. Doctorate in business, and you know, of course, over that time I took several courses on entrepreneurship. I always admired people who were entrepreneurs, and I always said explicitly, directly, I said, I don’t have an entrepreneurial bone in my body. And then I came across this passion of coaching executives, and now I’ve built a business around it, and my friends are like, Oh, my goodness, Andrea, like what have you done? And I’m like.

I know I’m reading. I’m listening and reading to books about building businesses all the time now, and it’s like my identity it went from. I am not that kind of person to. This is something that I’m going for like and spending. Talk about my portfolio like a significant amount of my time on it.

Christina Wallace: Of course.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: But I think a big part of that, too. I mean, I love that you are so focused on communication. And how do you think about. You know who you are and how you share that and what that looks like when you show up in the world. Because a lot of this is also relevant to like.

Well, what do you when you say, entrepreneur? What’s in your head? Is it a 25 year old Harvard dropout white dude in a hoodie in Silicon Valley, raising Vc. Funding and building something that goes to a billion dollars.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Christina Wallace: Like. That’s what most of us think, and that is one flavor of an entrepreneur. There are so many types of businesses, there are so many types of things. And so part of this is like changing what you see yourself as right. The stories you tell yourself, and the other part is like being sure that you’re seeing the world accurately like when we use these words. What does that mean? And are there versions of this that that might be more relevant to you than not. And how might this fit into your life? Right you go, go into that with like that design, thinking phrase of like. How might we? Rather than like I can’t. I shouldn’t I won’t it won’t. It won’t work, you know, and I think so much of that is like, we have these understandably. So we have these shortcuts, these proxies.

For how we understand people and roles and industries and spaces and geographies. because the world is so complex that we.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Christina Wallace: Possibly take in all the information every single minute, and be able to make the judgment calls we have to make right. This is evolutionary brain.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, we have to. Otherwise we wouldn’t survive or never mind thrive. Right? Yeah.

Christina Wallace: And 2 things can be true. My favorite parenting phrase.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: And those proxies, those shortcuts that we’ve used to understand. The world might be out of date. and we need to refresh them with current data and see.

Is that still what I think it is, and is it still not relevant to me the way I thought it wasn’t.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, you’re reminding me of a conversation I had very recently actually with Professor Jerry Zaltman. He’s emeritus from Hbs. And we were talking about archetypes. And so my clients love being diagnosed with what of the 12 professional identity archetypes do? What resonates the most, and then how that can provide me with direction and focus. I think it might be similar to. I guess you could say diagnosing what your Venn diagram looks like right. And Jerry was cautioning me to also caution my clients that that you know your archetype can certainly, and probably should change over time. Don’t get stuck. Yeah, right. This is the flexibility pillar, I think.

Huge. Yeah, I mean, I think even one very sort of simple version of that right now, as a professor.

Christina Wallace: I’m not managing anyone right. No one reports to me. I report to no one. Academia is a very strange place. It is and for someone who built a career as a leader and a manager.

To take a role for a big season of life where I’m not managing. Anyone can feel, you know, contradictory. You’re kind of like. Well, that’s not for me. Right like I’ve specialized in this other thing. And so those moments where you say that that gut reaction that’s not for me. I am blank. Those are exactly the moments where I want you to freeze and write down those statements. and then, like, break them apart. pull back the layers and say, like, is this true? Must this be true? What is it about being a manager that’s so crucial to my identity? Is it about the power and the prestige.

Is it about the impact, the scale of my hour? It’s not just a 1 to one like an individual contributor. Well, I get scale as a professor. I get 90 students, a semester, and they’re going to go on to become some of the biggest leaders in the world like that’s pretty good for a multiple on my hour of work. So as you start pulling that apart, you realize that, like the elements of what I’m getting out of this. What I’m interested in can be met through a huge again, the optionality, a huge set of options. But it requires just a little bit of more nuanced thinking than I think. Many of us give ourselves the time for when we’re sort of living in a world where you’re making snap judgments and having to make decisions every 30 min.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So when I heard you at the summit, live giving the presentation about your book, and then when I read it, and now again, when I’m talking to you, I’m thinking about. If you could think of it as a continuum or a spectrum.

Ranging from the thesis of the book range  right where I can’t remember the author’s name, talks about how the most successful folks are the ones that have diversification and variety in their background versus the whole. You know 30,000 touches of the ball is the only thing that’s going to get you there, and you need to be laser focused right? And it sounds like you are not necessarily prescribing a certain place on the continuum. But you’re encouraging people to be open to the range. Thesis of diversification, diversification.

Christina Wallace: Yeah, I mean, I think 2 things can be true. I think it is absolutely true that there is a whole host of worlds where specialization 30 touches on the ball, whatever that looks like is super relevant. And I’m not saying, go half ass everything and put 2% of your portfolio into 50 things right like that’s not a good portfolio.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Great.

Christina Wallace: At the same time. whether you are becoming an expert neurosurgeon or professional basketball player or artist, or anything. you literally cannot do it 24 HA day.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: And that’s where we see burnout. That’s where we see. Because, in addition to like, you need to rest a underestimated thing among high performing people. Sometimes, in addition to that, even the most fulfilling work  doesn’t meet all of your needs. Right? So if you think about this, you start this model from like, what do I need? I have financial needs. Sure. Those are probably front of mind and easiest to quantify. But then there are things like, I have growth needs, I have creative needs. I have needs around community and relationship. I have needs around impact. And knowing that my work matters, no matter what you do. It is unlikely that it is meeting all of your needs.

So, as you specialize on that thing you might recognize like, Hey, I love this thing I’m doing. and I need to have this hobby that meets this one little piece, this painting hobby. I’m not any good at it, but it gives me the meditation.

It allows me to sort of de-stress and process and be active with my hands, so I can’t get sucked into technology. and. you know, create something, and just like, let those thoughts out of my head so that that everything else has space.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: Right, and that makes me better at this other thing I’m doing. And I see you see this in the stories, in the literature. Even that supports this idea, that, like people who have something else, whatever that something else is, makes them better at the 1st thing right?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: The term consilience. I keep thinking right.

Christina Wallace: Yes, because you’re both like you get new information by stepping out into a different space. Right? We know this from like second and 3rd order network nodes are more valuable than 1st order network nodes, because they have access to new information as opposed to in our direct network. We’re all talking to the same people, reading the same things, talking, you know, about the same ideas, but in addition to that, like stepping away from something actually gives space for the 1st thing to marinate. And so I want my neurosurgeon to have a hobby I want right? I want. And they’re a big part of that is, it makes them better at what they’re doing. But the other piece of it is that it means that on the day that they’re no longer loving what they’re doing.

They won’t force themselves to do it for a single day longer than that, because they have something else that brings. So I love that that gives them identity. And I think that’s a piece that we can certainly see in society right now a whole generation that was never allowed to have anything else other than their jobs, and now they are holding on to power for far longer than they should.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hmm.

Christina Wallace: Because who are they? If not the name on their business card? Right? And so I agree with specialization. Certainly there are fields that necessitate that. But I also agree with range. I believe that you can’t just be one thing no one is. We’re all 3 dimensional. And so, recognizing what are all of those other elements of me? I think about this, like the O’Hare snow in Airport test, which is like on hour 5 of being stranded at the airport. What are we talking about? Because at that point we’ve covered the basics we’ve covered politics. We’ve covered Taylor Swift. We’ve covered, you know what you’re thinking about for Q. 4. At that point we’re down a rabbit hole.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: And I am probably telling you about some random Broadway production that Mary Zimmerman directed in 1998. And you’re probably telling me about whatever, and those are the things that you’re like. Oh, that’s what lights you up.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? Okay, so this is a beautiful segue to one of the exercises that I learned about when I was listening to your presentation that I stole and prescribed to a personal branding boot camp that I just a couple weeks ago I challenged the folks in the boot camp to do your 100 wishes for your life exercise, and I think it’s similar to what you were just saying. Right after an hour you get to.  So do you want to describe that exercise.

Christina Wallace: I love this exercise, and I even got it from a wonderful ux designer who has written quite extensively about this work. And so it’s all sort of. I attribute this to like the best of the Internet. When we all just build on each other’s ideas, open source, Internet world 100 wishes. The idea is we’re not talking about goals. Goals are things you achieve. Wishes are a little bit different.

And you think about on your deathbed. We want to get all nice and sappy. What are the things that you want to leave behind.

What is the imprint that your life has had? And so that’s everything from like the artifacts, the organizations, the work, the paintings, the whatever that will outlast you, but also. who do you want to have loved? And what do you want to have seen and experience? What are the stories that you’re telling in that moment right? Like, what is the measure of your life?

And I put sort of like the 100 100 feels insane because you start writing. You’re like 100. Can’t be that hard. You get to like 30, and you’re like I have to do 100.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Got to 30, Christina. I got to 30, and I I know I know my mind was playing with me a little bit. said at about 30 to 35. It got really hard.

Christina Wallace: I know I.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Then.

Christina Wallace: You’ve got.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: The magic happens.

Christina Wallace: Grab a glass of wine, grab some something, and go take a walk and keep thinking. And that’s where the magic happens, because after 30. You get through the obvious resume stuff and the easy stuff like, I want to have a family and you get to. You’re like, what does that even mean, what does that mean? It forces you to start getting really specific. I got like, I want to have a relationship with my adult children where we are still actively in each other’s lives.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hmm.

Christina Wallace: That requires a huge investment in the relationship we build from childhood onward.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Christina Wallace: Because that’s not guaranteed. You don’t just show up, and you both live long enough, and you get to be in each other’s lives as adults. I want to be able to pick up my grandkids when I’m 90. That’s an investment in my health that I have to start making. Now. I want to win a Tony Award.

I wrote that one down 5 years before I started producing Broadway. and it was for me it came. It was surprised me that I was like, really you. You stepped away from a theater career 15 years ago, like interesting. And it wasn’t about the award. I mean. Obviously the award is lovely.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Awards are good. Yeah.

Christina Wallace: It was. It was the notion that, like I’m not done with that part of my life yet I miss it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I want to be back, and I want to be back in a meaningful way, not like a community theater. Help out with the school play way. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but like I’m talking big leagues.

Christina Wallace: And so when that moment arrived, it was like, Hey, do you want to invest in this Broadway show? Do you want to get involved as a producer. Do you know what that means? I was like? Oh, that’s an easy yes. because I already excavated that part of me and realized. I want it. I want it, even if it seems silly to want it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: At this age.

Christina Wallace: So you start writing things down, and this is the moment where and then, you know, once you’ve got the long list, you sort of put them into buckets. and it gives you a sense of like. Is there a whole piece of my life that I haven’t been investing in? And I haven’t for a while, which is not uncommon right. You get to midlife. You’ve got a family. You’ve got responsibilities. There might be a whole piece of you that, like kind of has been ignored for a decade.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Are the seasons right?

Christina Wallace: These are the seasons, and there might be a moment where you’re like. Huh! I mean, you can’t pursue all 100 wishes every single day of the week, obviously. But if you’ve got this whole category of wishes you’re like.

I haven’t touched that in a couple of decades. It’s usually a sign that like.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: Maybe you put a 5% allocation on that. You find a way to like slot that in as like a once a week, an hour, a week, something.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: And in doing that work as you realize what needs its meeting, how it’s, it’s contributing to your happiness and your community and your growth and your just whole personness. You might realize, like, actually, I kind of want to dial that up to like 10%. 15%. Maybe this becomes like little side hustle.

Maybe this might be my next season of full-time work, and I want to start laying the groundwork for that before I step away from my day job to sort of de-risk that transition in a really intentional way, right? And, like all of these things could be true, but it allows you, if you like, actually listen to your heart’s desire as silly as that might sound. You know what you want out of your life.

You just got to sit long enough and listen to the things where you’re like. Feel so stupid writing this down.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I can do.

Christina Wallace: It, write it down.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: All right. So listen up. Talk about talk listeners. Here’s what here’s your homework, create your Venn diagram with. I know you said. Usually it’s 3 or more. It could be 5 or.

Christina Wallace: Could be. It could be 5 at about like 6 or 7. You probably want to think about a slightly different way to organize right, find the similarities and categorize a little bit, because, like 7 can feel overwhelming. But yeah, it’s there’s no fixed.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So create your Venn diagram. Look at where it’s overlapping. Think about where you’re spending your time on that Venn diagram and where the opportunities may be, and then take it to the next level and list your 100 wishes for your life.

Christina Wallace: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: This is the imprint that you want to make the legacy that you want to leave, but also the experiences that you want to have.

I think it’s fair to say that there could be goals in there, but it’s not.

Christina Wallace: For sure.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Not all goals. It’s more experiences. And what do you want to have happen and categorize them? And then and then I think it’s beautiful you can. You can proactively pursue those things, but also just that exercise will keep those themes top of mind. I love your story, Christina, about how, when the opportunity came to you to be a Broadway producer. You were like done. I already know that that’s 1 of the most important things in my life that I need to check off.

Christina Wallace: But I think oh.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, okay.

Christina Wallace: I think this is so relevant as you bring it back to personal brand. I mean, I feel like it always comes back to personal brand, because this is about who you are and how you show up in the world. No, when you have excavated things that matter to you.

The people around. You want to help you right? Everyone in your network. Everyone who works with you and knows you and loves you want to help you, but like no one’s thinking about you most of the time. and so to help you, they need to know what you need, what you want what you’re looking for. And so, having that clarity to say, I’m building this business, I’m interested in this thing. But like also, I’m kind of psyched about anything related to theater like. you know anyone if you come across right like even just saying the words out loud.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Christina Wallace: Allows the universe to help make it happen.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Christina Wallace: Because the reason I even got to invest in that Broadway. That very 1st Broadway show is because someone in my network knew that I was a total theater. Geek!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Nice. Okay.

Christina Wallace: He got the opportunity and couldn’t take it, and said, You know who you should talk to Christina.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh! Oh!

Christina Wallace: So like this brings me these things.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Join.

Christina Wallace: Having them. Top of mind is what allows your network to show up for you.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: But you have to be clear on it, and it can’t be all over the place right? This is where, like the buckets, the organization of that story really matters, because most people can remember what 3 things about you so dial it in.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay. So you just said that this, the magic story word I. When I turn to chapter 9, tell your story. I was like, okay. Now it’s time to sit down and get comfortable and devour this and start writing in the margins.

You talk about how to answer the question. Tell me about yourself. You talk about avoiding being the reasons we don’t want to be the qualified quiet.

Christina Wallace: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You talk about being your own Cmo chief marketing officer.

Christina Wallace: Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And you talk about having your one sentence. So I mean, there’s so much that we can unpack here. I’m just going to say, folks. You got to read the book. It’s amazing. But do you have any other stories about how this you know you do the work up front, and then you end up telling the story, not just to yourself, but sharing it with others, and the impact that that can have.

Christina Wallace: Yeah, I mean, I think ultimately it sort of for me comes down to 2 things, number one. As I said, no one’s thinking about you. And so you have to arm them with the information right? And I think a lot of people really struggle with like, I don’t want to be self promotional. I’m like, it’s literally it’s not. It’s.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I hear it every day, Christina, every day, every.

Christina Wallace: Not so promotional. You’re just literally telling me, who are you like? Arm me with the things I need to know, to understand who you are, and how to help you, but the other piece of it, and that I have found very effective for me, especially as, like a slightly strange path person, a weirdo. And I say that lovingly is, I try to leave breadcrumbs of who I am in the world. And I let those people find me. And so, okay, what the hell does that mean? That means things like writing blog posts or having a sub stack or writing on LinkedIn on a regular basis, having some thought leadership that you put out in the world. I had a podcast for a while same idea, it is being part of communities and sort of showing up to things and raising my hand and making it very clear that, like this is part of who I am, and I’m going to just leave that nugget.

So that even sort of asynchronously, almost, I get inbounds constantly through my website. I have a website you’re like, well, of course you do. You’re a professor and author. I had a website. When I graduated from Harvard Business School, which is insane. I was 26. I had an Mba. And I was like, you know what I need a website. I need to be findable.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Name.

Christina Wallace: And that website has changed so many times over the years. And like the Wayback machine and the Internet Archive can be a Testament to this. It has had so many lives. But the point is, I was out there. I had a front door in the Internet world, and I was findable by the people looking for someone like me.

And almost every opportunity I’ve had up to this point has been inbound. I put my work out there and then other people say, actually, I’m looking for exactly someone like you. Do you want to speak at this event? Do you want to write that book? Do you want to come and teach here, and so like. You don’t have to be blasting your story on a soapbox on the corner, but you can leave artifacts, leave breadcrumbs and then be easily findable. 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Love it, so be purposeful, be public. I was also just reading and writing and thinking about private versus public thought leadership right? There’s so many advantages to creating a body of public thought leadership. Oh, boy, and avoid being.

Christina Wallace: Truly this book would not exist without my public thought leadership, because part of what told me that there was a book to write, and that convinced my editor that she should buy the book, was getting the comments and the conversation in. I was originally writing articles for Forbes years ago, and seeing the reaction, the responses and the feedback loop 2 specific articles I was like. This isn’t anything. I just need to write it to meet my quota for the month, and then, like it goes viral. And you’re like, Oh. is that? Huh? That’s a unique point of view, right? Like you’re letting the market literally tell you which of your ideas are unique or specific and new and fresh. You don’t have to be right. You just have to put work out there and like literally, let your audience tell you what they want more of.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So this is very compelling evidence, for why we don’t want to be the qualified quiet. But I know many of my clients they’re like, I’m not writing for Forbes. I’m not writing for Hbr, I don’t even have a blog. And I don’t want a blog. Nor do I want a podcast and I think my answer to them is. when you introduce yourself, even as simple as when you introduce yourself at the beginning of a meeting or at a networking event.

You’re not saying that you’re good at everything, but put your stake in the ground and tell them what you’re all about. You know what differentiates me compared to other communication coaches, or what differentiates me compared to other tech executives, is my whatever right.

Christina Wallace: Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Christina Wallace: Well, and a big part of this, I think, is remembering with any story it starts with, Who’s the audience? And so if you’re in a room of all tech executives.

You could probably give a very high level like, oh, I am the head of product development for blank, and they all understand what that means. You don’t have to get into the details there and then you can provide something else. And you know I’m a silver medalist skier from the Olympics, right? Whatever that thing is like, because you have this shared body of knowledge in one area. You don’t have to go deep there, and you can provide like what is different about me. Based on this room. Now, if you go to a dinner for a whole bunch of Olympians.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Christina Wallace: Then, right again, what you have in common is different than what you’re different on right? And so, as I think about this is where the Venn diagram comes into play every time. Yeah, I’m not the best entrepreneur in the world. I’m not the best Broadway producer in the world. I’m not the best business person in the world, but I am the damn well, best entrepreneurial Broadway producer at a business school. So where is that combination for you? Edit your story to that one sentence. Here’s what I have to offer, and here’s where I stand out. 

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oof you will be quoted on that, Christina, I promise.

Christina Wallace: Excellent.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay. I want to move now to the 3 rapid fire questions. Are you ready.

Christina Wallace: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Question number one, are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Christina Wallace: I’m an ambivert. I need both. and I know this very explicitly, because, like many performers, I have a ton of energy that I emit when I’m on, and then when I get off stage or out of class, or whatever I go and like, lay on the floor of my office and just stare at the ceiling for an hour. However, you’re like, Okay, that makes you an introvert. No, during the pandemic. when I was inside for like 36 straight days.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Derek.

Christina Wallace: Bring up my 3 month old, which was basically a potato. At that point she had no personality. While my husband was working in the other room. Nonstop. I was like, I need human interaction. This is not going to work for me, so I’m an ambivert. I need a little bit of both.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, question number 2.

Christina Wallace: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: What are your communication, pet peeves?

Christina Wallace: Hmm. That throat clearing, and I don’t mean the literal throat clearing. I mean the apologizing for what you’re about to say rather than just saying it or the like. Well, I know I’m not really the expert here or the Internet, and like you, fill up a solid 30 seconds, or however long you’ve been allotted.

Just start saying the things that you want to say, and we don’t have to worry about all of that. We call it throat clearing, especially when you’re writing, and it’s almost always that 1st paragraph, and you just delete the 1st paragraph, and by the second you’ve like gotten into it. Start with the second paragraph.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, very well put. I love that so. No more weak language, no more apologizing, no more posturing.

Christina Wallace: No.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Be direct. Okay. I got the head nod last rapid fire question, is there a podcast or a book, or maybe both, that you find yourself recommending lately.

Christina Wallace: A little bit of both. I have 2 books, and one book is also a. Podcast so I’ll start with that one. It’s called the Anxious Achiever by Maura Aarons Mele. It’s through, I think, LinkedIn Podcasts. And she also has a book related to it that I, freaking love and I love it a ton, and not just because she quoted me in it, but as someone who has been anxious my whole life who’s on medication for anxiety, I I really struggled with, you know, like, how might this hinder my career and all the things? And when I met Maura and we were able to actually talk about this. I realized that so many of my superpowers as a manager, as a communicator actually stem from. My anxiety right like my ability to read the room and notice micro changes in facial expressions when I’m giving a talk, and therefore allow me to adjust how fast I’m going, whether I’m dropping some of the humor that’s not being received, whether I’m pivoting, how I use proxies in my storytelling. All of that comes from like the hyper alertness of anxiety. And so I was like, oh, yes, it’s something to be managed. It’s not. I’m not going to go and encourage everyone to just lean into your anxiety. But it’s also not something to be feared. And it’s not it’s not a shortcoming. It’s just something I can harness for

how I show up in the world. So I love that one. The other one is Karen Eber, the perfect story.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Christina Wallace: It is a fantastic book. It just came out last year on literally the art and science of storytelling. She’s a storytelling coach, and it is just a brilliant playbook for anyone who’s never really thought about the mechanics, the structure, and the delivery of storytelling. It’s a whole discipline, and she sort of just lays it out there for you. So those are my 2 things.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I have thought about the mechanics, the structure of storytelling, but I’m not familiar with that book, so I can’t wait to read it.

Christina Wallace: Out!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I will put links to the podcast and both of those books in the show notes. Is there any last thought that you want to share with the talk about talk listeners about maybe the advantages of the portfolio life, or how to embody it.

Christina Wallace: I mean, I think this is why I’ve put the entire last piece the last 3, rd I would say 3, rd but it’s actually half the book on the how? Because there’s the theory, right? That’s the 1st 3rd and there’s the like, you know why you should do it. And that’s amazing, but the work of actually doing it is like a whole discipline. And so I think, if this is something that is appealing to you. I want to encourage you to actually like. Do the work. You can’t just think about it, and then hope your life will change, which is an obvious thing to say. But like also, you know, I read a lot of great books, and I’m like, that’s interesting. And then I go back and do nothing about incorporating those ideas. And and this is one of those that I think is a meaningful. As you said, like, there are people going through big moments of transitions where there’s an obvious catalyst for this. But there’s also these, these micro moments of like. There’s friction in my life that didn’t used to be there.

 Huh! That friction usually means like your needs are not getting met, or the things that used to fill you are no longer filling you, and these are the early signs before the midlife crisis, before the moments of big transition that, like, maybe I just need to tweak my portfolio a little bit, so to the extent that you want to read the book, pull up some of the exercises, grab a friend. I love doing these with friends, and sort of sit down and and like, make this your your project for a couple of weekends. I think you’d be really surprised by how much you might get out of just a couple hours of doing the work.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I can tell you that this has already made a big impact on me. And I just want to say, Thank you, Christina. I’ve learned a lot, and I really enjoyed learning even more about the portfolio life. Thank you.

Christina Wallace: Thank you so much for having me.

CLOSING

Wow.  That was an intense conversation. Tears, laughter, the whole gamut. Incredible. Thank you Christina.

Now, as always, I’m going to share with you three key learnings that I hope to reinforce coming out of this conversation with Christina. Actually, it’s more like three exercises that I hope you will try. Even just one of them.  Choose one f these three and see how it goes.  Then try another. And then another. 

Because here’s the thing. AT some point, your life is up to you. Let’s do this with our eyes wide open.  These exercises can help.  They can also illuminate some of the themes in our personal brand.

The first exercise is your personal Venn diagram. Maybe limit it to your professional life.  What are the 3-5 themes that represent your passion and your expertise?  For Christina, she said it’s business, technology and theatre.  For me, it’s  brand marketing, teaching or coaching, and communication. Maybe I’d re-label that third one self-expression. I realize that throughout my career, and even personally, I’m kind of obsessed with these three things. Now the fun starts by plotting down my various activities into these circles and where they overlap.  I hope you’ll try the same thing. What are the 3 circles in your personal Venn diagram?

The second exercise is to list the 100 wishes for your life.  Like I said, like Christina said,. The first 30—35 are easy. Then it gets tough.  Uncomfortable even.  But that’s where the magic happens.  Once you’re done your list of 100 wishes, you can start to categorize them.  And make sure you’re leaving breadcrumbs, as Chistina says, and thinking about how you’re allocating your time.

Which leads me to the third exercise.  We didn’t talk about this directly in the interview, although we did talk about it indirectly, And it’s covered in detail in The Portfolio Life Book.  It’s the exercise of allocating your time.  This is about identifying what proportion of your time, what percent you’re spending on your physical health, sleeping, working out, with your family, enjoying the outdoors focused on each of the circles in your Venn diagram, socializing with friends, looking after our children, caring for our parents, and on and on. 

I just loved how Christina highlighted how we have different seasons in our lives. SO maybe if you’re in the sandwich generation, you’re looking after your children AND your aging parents, maybe that’s not when you have time to explore your creative side,  But then the seasons change and suddenly you do. I guess the idea here is to be conscious, to be proactive about this. TO be mindful about where you’re spending your time, so you don’t have any regrets. 

After I met with Christina, I created my own pie chart of how I currently spend my time. Then one for how I wished I was spending my time. Then a third one for how I’d like to spend my time 5 years from now, when my three kids are gone and I’m an empty nester. This is important stuff.

So those are the 3 exercises that I encourage you to try. Before you embark on these exercises, I encourage you to buy Christina’s book “The Portfolio Life”. There’s a link to the book in the shownotes. I have to tell you this book is interesting.  On one hand, it’s a n easy tread.  As you can gather from our conversation, Christina is very easy to talk to.  She writes the same way that she speaks. SO in a way it’s an easy read.  But if you take her suggestions to heart, this is not at all an easy read.  I mean, creating your personal Venn diagram,. Listing your 100 wishes, and recording how you allocate your time on a pie chart, these are not easy exercises.

But I know you’re up for it and I know you’ll find these exercises valuable. And of course, the insights from these exercises will end up informing your personal brand.  These are important elements of your identity. 

And that is everything for this episode! Thanks again to Christina Wallace.  You can find Christina’s coordinates and a link to her book in the shownotes for this episode.  And my coordinates are there too! 

You’ll find a link to signup for my free email newsletter. 

There’s also a link to my LinkedIn account, so you can follow me there and maybe even send me a DM. 

If you enjoyed this Talk About Talk podcast, please make sure you subscribe. 

Thank you for listening. 

Talk soon!

The post The Portfolio Life and your PERSONAL BRAND with Christina Wallace (ep.179) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Is your resume or CV updated to comply with ATS (Applicant Tracking Software) standards? Whether you’re actively job-searching or vaguely considering a job change, these insights from resume expert Martin Buckland will set you up for success. Bonus download: “How to Optimize the Top of Your Resume for the ATS.”

Are you vaguely considering a job change?  Or perhaps youre actively job searching? No matter your job status, you need an updated and optimized resume.  And as you’re about to learn, optimizing your resume has changed a LOT in the last few years!  Get ready to learn all about how AI and specifically the ATS or Applicant tracking system, has significantly changed the rules of effective résumé writing. 

If you choose to ignore the new resume guidelines based on the ATS, there’s a high probability that no one will ever read your résume.  On the other hand, if you incorporate the ATS guidelines, if you optimize your resume based on the advice you’re about to hear, you just might have a competitive advantage relative to other job seekers you’re competitive against.

Are you ready?

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode “Update your Resume and LinkedIn with Martin Buckland”

I get a lot of requests from my clients to help them with their CV. Let me say upfront there are things I can help with when it comes to your resume, and things I cannot. I can definitely help you craft your narrative in terms of clearly communicating your unique personal brand.  I can help you choose the words and phrases that will reinforce your unique value.

What I cannot do it help you with formatting. I am not expert on that. And as I said at the beginning, the ATS or Applicant Tracking System has completely changed how resumes should be formatted.  So, what should we do?  Let’s call in the expert- Mr. Martin Buckland.

You’re about to hear my conversation with Martin, where we literally go line by line and he describes what can and cannot be included starting with your name at the top all the way down to your interests at the very bottom.

To make this process easier for you, Martin and I created a one page template of what should be included in the top section of your résumé in particular. You can find a link to this one pager in the show notes which you can either print now before you listen to the interview or you can print and read it later as a review. We thought it would be helpful if you could see an example of exactly what Martin describes.

All right then without further ado I’m going to interview Martin and then we’ll get right to the interview. After the interview as always, I will summarize with three main learnings that I want to reinforce for you. Are you ready?

Martin Buckland is a a globally acclaimed Executive Career Coach and Executive Resume Writer. He’s helped thousands of individuals across the world manage their careers, climb the corporate ladder, and land the job they deserve.

After a distinguished Law Enforcement career with the renowned London Metropolitan

Police and Scotland Yard, Martin retired and started “Elite Resumes.” He provides career management services customized to the client’s job level, sector and career goal.

Working with EMBA programs inspired Martin to launch EMBA Career Coach, designing a platform of tools catering to graduates and candidates around in the world. He also works for numerous Business Schools around the world.

Martin is a sought-after presenter, podcast guest, coach and resume/cv writer. He frequently presents to large and small audiences and facilitates intense workshops as an authority in all pillars of career management. He enjoys delivering what he light heartedly calls ‘the career management gospel according to Martin’.

Martin has earned >20 certifications including Master Resume Writer, Certified Social Media Career Strategist, Personal Branding Strategist, Job & Career Transition Coach, Employment Interview Professional, and Job Search Trainer.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Martin, for being here today to talk to the talk about talk listeners. about your resume and Linkedin profile.

Martin Buckland: You’re very welcome, Andreas. Pleasure to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Before we get into this, I just want to say, for those folks who are listening to this podcast and not watching on Youtube, you are wearing an absolutely fantastic shirt. I love it.

Martin Buckland: Well, thank you for your compliments. Yes, I’m known for my shirts and my color that I wear, and friends when I go out they ask me, well, wonder what color he’s going to wear. I wonder what shirt he’s going to wear today? And then when I go online and I do. As you know, a lot of live streaming. I try and wear a different shirt. Obviously you run out of shirts, but I try and wear a different shirt because, I’ve been doing 4 podcasts or 4 webcasts today. And each person has asked me about the shirt.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So this is a particularly remarkable shirt. Now, people are going to want to go to Youtube to see this. Or maybe I’ll put a photo of us in the show notes so people can see it. It’s fantastic. So this is your 4th time on camera today.

Martin Buckland: Yes, yes, the 1st one was at 4 Am. This morning.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow. okay. And behind you, for those people who aren’t watching this on Youtube, you have 9 clocks that are all set for different time zones so clearly. You are coaching and doing workshops all over the world.

Martin Buckland: That’s right. Yeah, I have clients right now. In 31 different countries.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Amazing. Okay, so let’s get into this. Then this is well before we get into what does the the ideal Cv or resume look like. I have a perhaps more general question, which is. what’s the difference between a Cv. And a resume, or is there a difference.

Martin Buckland: Well, that could be a long winded question, but it really the Cv traditional Cv is known. It’s known or resume is known as A. Cv. In Europe and certain parts of Asia and Middle East, and then a resume is known here in the Americas and certain other parts of the world. So basically, they are the same documents. However, let’s go down to the drill it down a little bit further. A traditional Cv is reserved here in North America for somebody like a scientist, a physician and surgeon, somebody in the justice system, a judge or subject matter expert. But and that’s called the curriculum vitae. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? That’s right. I know that from being in Academia, yeah. different, a different sort of document. And that’s not necessarily what we’re talking about. So I’m going to try and stick to the right vocabulary here, and I’ll be asking you about a resume. But this advice is hopefully relevant for people all over the world with regards to kind of the classic managerial two-page resume or Cv. Whatever you want to call it.

Martin Buckland: Right or 3. Page.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, well, we’ll get into that. We’ll get into that. I love it. I knew I knew there was a little hesitation there. So what does the ideal resume? Look like, then?

Martin Buckland: Okay, so there’s 3 different types of resumes. So there’s the functional which I used to write when I 1st started writing resumes, or Cvs 31 years ago. That’s a skills based resume. And then there is the reverse chronological, which is sort of self explanatory. And then there’s the combination. So a combination of the functional and the reverse chronological. And that’s the resume the Cv of choice today, and you cannot afford to go out of that that particular format, the combination. Because today we become, we’ve gone into the technology age where candidates when they apply for jobs, aren’t screened by human eyes. Initially, they are screened now sadly, I don’t like it, and many other people don’t like it, but we have to abide by technology, and it’s built around a certain format and a certain content. And, as you know, Andrea, you cannot beat a computer, but you can at least try and match it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. It’s like understanding the algorithm of Linkedin, which we’re going to get to in a moment here. But so, understanding what it’s looking for I was gonna ask you about the do’s and don’ts in terms of making it through the AI screen in a minute. But but let’s let’s go back to you talked about a functional versus a chronological cv, so I had heard that I guess humans, when they’re reading a resume prefer chronological because it gives a structure that our brain can understand. It tells a story, a chronological story, and sometimes people would, even

in their minds, question whether, if someone created a functional resume if they were trying to, you know, hide something or create some confusion, because maybe they took a big break and they were trying to hide it. So can you elaborate a little bit on? Why, you’re recommending or hearing that people are preferring the combination. And what, specifically, that might look like.

Martin Buckland: Well, a combination really above the crucial part of a resume Cv. Today is that translates it takes it from a traditional reverse chronological, which is a No. No, today, because it won’t go through the ats and it and it takes it away from the skills based. Resume. But you’re right. Yes, we used to used to be when somebody was received, a a functional, a skills based resume. Many years ago it used to put a lot of well question marks in people’s mind. Why is this person got reverted to a chrono to a functional rather than a chronological? But now, all resumes Cvs are, are combination combination of the 2.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So you mentioned Ats what is ats.

Martin Buckland: So it’s called application tracking system. It’s the acronym for application tracking system. So your resume your Cv. If you were to submit to a corporate job or an Ngo job, or even the government municipal, federal, local, or whatever it’s fed it sadly fed into. It’s not read by human eyes. It’s fed into a computer and pulled out, based on a certain format and a certain content. Right? So I’ve had many clients who just had one minor minor mistake. And they’ve been in job search, and they’re close to running out of money, and they’re panicking. They’re frustrated, you know, and their social or their family life is falling apart because of this situation.

It’s just 1 5 min change, and then they get interviews.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow, okay, so bring it on. What are some of these things that we need to be aware of?

Martin Buckland: Well, shading, you can’t have shading. I mean, that’s a pretty simple thing. People have a lot of shades in their resume. Each block of shade creates an extra page. So you know, if you’ve got 3 different types of shades, and you’ve got a traditional 3 page resume. That means it’s going to go to 6 pages, and then this is the crucial thing. They have their name, and they have all their contact info, and maybe down the left hand side. They have their skills. Well, the text within that shade cannot be read by the scanning machinery. So nobody will know what their name is, let alone their email and how to contact them and everything else.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Because of the shading, or because it’s in a box to the side.

Martin Buckland: Because of the shading, because so the text. So 2 things you can’t have the shading and that create every block of shade creates an extra page, and then the text within that shading. Then you can’t read the scanning machinery doesn’t read. So 0 comes out. So they wanted to know your name.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, this is critical. This is critical. So, yeah, so people black on white, right? Black copy on white paper. No shading, no color. Let’s just.

Martin Buckland: Have a little bit of color. You can have, maybe a color border, but you can’t have shading. You can’t have underlines. You can have hyperlinks, but you can’t have underlines, limited Bolding, and we’ll come to Bolding in a couple of minutes. Okay, you can only have one block of of of text, of 4 lines or more, and the rest has to be 3 lines. You can only have  squares, or small squares, or small circles as bullets. So you know, some people have those graphics, and whatever every graphic. So some people put the little I don’t know what it’s called. Well, the tell it, the the receiver for their telephone number and their, you know, little envelope for their email. Well, every one of those graphics again, creates an extra page.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow, wow, okay.

Martin Buckland: So it’s very, very particular, and it’s sad that many people are who are have got the who are a perfect candidate. But they’ve got 150% of the skills needed or required. and they’d be a perfect candidate. They’d be a perfect employee. But they’re counted out just simply because technology.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And you shared with me in a recent conversation, that you and I had a tip about credentials being on a separate.

Martin Buckland: Yeah. Yeah. So so in in the when I used to 1st started writing resumes prior to Ats, I used to put the credentials around after the name Mba, Bsc. Or whatever. Now, if you put that, the scanning machinery will think your name is Mba. Bsc. And it will forget about your name. So you now have to put the the credentials, designations, or whatever right underneath your name.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: On a second line. Yeah, that’s also critical in particular, for some some positions, right where a certain designation or credential is required.

Martin Buckland: So I’m just touching it. There’s a whole long laundry list of stuff you can’t do. Yeah, I mean, I could keep you here to breakfast tomorrow morning, because it’s it’s like it’s, it’s really long list. I’ve had to adjust my resume writing style to meet this format.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, well, you can think of it as a competitive advantage. If you’re taking the time to listen to this podcast and to take this instructions from Martin, then you may have an advantage that a lot of people are lacking. I’m going to ask you now if you can just kind of go through from the top. You talked about what’s above the fold. I love that, and then the sections, and maybe the do’s and don’ts, and then we’ll move on to Linkedin.

Martin Buckland: Sure. Yeah. So so you have obviously have your name at the top, and then you have your and then you have your designations, and then underneath that you have your contact info. Now you don’t need to put your full address, which is good, like we used to your full residential address. You can just put the city and the province, or the state, or county, or whatever it is. But you must have these 4 key things. You must have your phone number. You must have your email and keep it a a professional email. Hotmail is like a card in all sin. You can’t have Hotmail. That’s like a that’s like a very unprofessional. And then you need to have your Linkedin address customized. And we’re going to talk about that when we come to Linkedin. And just recently, I’m going to say, in the last 6 or 8 weeks you now need to have your 10 digit zoom address on your resume. So those are the contact points. Then you have a line separating that, and then underneath that you have the directive. Now that this is the only forward or future part of the resume because the resume basically documents. Your career history. So historical document. So it takes you from today backwards cover letter written in the personal pronoun takes you from today forwards. So those 2 go hand in hand. So so you need to have the type. If you’re going to send to an executive recruiter. you, you would put a senior supply chain leader, or something, or senior finance leader, or whatever. But and then and then, if you want to get on their database. But if they have a specific job you are applying for you put chief financial officer, or senior or senior manager, Fpna, or whatever it is. got it. And then you need to for a corporate job. When you’re applying, you need to put the full title of that job underneath that you need to look through the job. Notice, this gives you extra points with the ats so underneath the job type underneath the job title. You put the 4 top hard skills that you think you in your own mind that they are looking for in that advert, and that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I’ve got 2 questions.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, sure.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: 1st of all, 1st of all, why 4, and secondly. hard skills, you know, do you mean specifically as opposed to soft skills.

Martin Buckland: Oh, sure, yeah. So hard skills are your business skills. So they are your functional skill, level industry and sometimes geographic skills.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Got it.

Martin Buckland: Whereas your soft skills are your personal skills, the skills you were you were born with and brought up on, so that you need to distinguish between the 2, and we. Then we’re going to have a section on that in a couple of minutes. So so you do the top. Why, top 4 is because it has to be on one line, because if you go, this is another ats thing. If it goes to 2 lines, you throw the ats off.  So if there is room for 5, you can have 5. But don’t go more than one line. So what I do is I do supply chain, management, space bullet, space asset management, space bullet space demand, planning, space, bullet space, and whatever the 4th one is.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Got it.

Martin Buckland: Beneath that you have your personal brand. So that is your, as you know, is your unique promise of value, your differentiator, your value. Add, and that has to be written in 1517 or 19. Words don’t go to 18. Don’t go to 16. Don’t go to 20. Why is because psychologists tell us that the human mind our mind picks up on 1517, or 19 words faster than any other combination.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I have never heard that before.

Martin Buckland: Yeah. And so that goes in bold italics on 2 lines underneath those 4, hard skills.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Martin Buckland: You have a space, and then you go into a 4 to 6 line margin to margin block paragraph. And there’s 4 key ingredients. You need to have in here. These are the what I would call the sweaty palm, twiddling your thumbs, shuffling your butt questions. You’re going to be asked in the in the interview, so you may as well put the answers to them in the resume. It makes your life a lot easier plus. It makes the interviewer’s life a lot easier. So one of the questions is what one word one word would describe you now start, that work, that paragraph off of that one word, and then you need to describe your leadership style, because, as you know, we all lead differently. And then you need to describe your communication style, because we all communicate differently. And then final thing is, what are you renowned for? Business, wise not to be duplicated from your personal brand your personal brands over here, and what you’re renowned for business. Wise is over here, so don’t duplicate the 2. So 4 key things in that 4 to 6 line block paragraph. and then you go into your business functional skill, level industry, maybe geographic geographic skills. So you’re allowed a maximum of 28. So.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: 28. That’s a lot.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah, it is. But some. Sometimes there isn’t a maximum of 4 lines. So you know, you might only go to 24, or even 20, but 28 is the Max. Don’t go any more than 28, whereas on a Linkedin you can go to 100. But we’ll talk a little bit about that in a couple of minutes. But so so you you do it. So executive leadership space pipe, the downward line space, and then whatever the second one is space, pipe space, and then whatever the 3rd one is space, pipe space. But look at the advert. There again. Take those top 4 again and repeat them, and then take all the other hard skills and put them down there and then, and then you can and then put the other hard skills that you think well, you that you have don’t put hard skills that you haven’t got, because that’s yeah embellishing that’s not called for, but but get about 2026, 28, if you can get 28 in that, that would be good. And then. So now you’re a 3rd of the way down the 1st page. If that’s the top of the above the above the fold. Now you go into reverse chronological of your work. Experience.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, so.

Martin Buckland: When you go into a job search people people don’t know how they they don’t know. Then they’re sales people. They’re nothing to do with finance or supply, chain, or marketing, or whatever they are selling themselves. The 3 worst functions for resume writing are sales. marketing, and human resources.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Why is that?

Martin Buckland: You would think they would be the best. Well, they can sell anything, but they can’t sell themselves.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Martin Buckland: I never repeat an action verb. So when we come into the professional experience.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Martin Buckland: I’ll repeat an action verb between page one and page 2. You can repeat it between page one and page 3. I see on my sales resume increased, increased, increased, increased. Well, how boring is that? What about propelled? What about catapulted? What about elevated, raised, boosted, uplifted. There’s so many other actions it gives. It excites the audience at the other end as well, and it also shows you have a good command of English.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So the algorithm doesn’t care that you have synonyms and a great vocabulary, right? But the algorithm is looking for things. So you’ve switched now from at the top. 3, rd the above the fold. It was what you were describing to me violates so many tenets of effective communication, interpersonal communication, and written communication. For example, people’s eyes glaze over after a paragraph that runs more than 3 lines, they’ll either skip it or they’ll skim it. Neither one of those is good news for you, so I always tell people keep it below 3 lines, and if you’re making a list. you know I I would say at most. It’s a 3 by 3. Right? You have 3 columns and 3 rows. And you’re saying 28.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow. So the top part is really written for the algorithm, for the ats.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah. But I mean people, recruiters and other Hr professionals. People who read and assess resumes all the time now become used to this this format, but you still get that first, st you know the 6, second, 5, second, 4, second, or whatever it is, initial, cut. If it they can, they can tell instantly if it’s not a good resume. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Okay, so the second.

Martin Buckland: One kick of the can. You need to invest time? And then, if you, you know, can’t, or make an investment in somebody who’s professional to do it. There’s lots of us around.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So what are the main sections after this top of the fold? Summary section? You said professional experience and.

Martin Buckland: Yes, and the professional experience based on accomplishments. So when I 1st started writing resumes, we used to put responsibilities. They’re not really interested in your responsibilities now they’re interested in. Well, how much money could he make me? How much money can he save me? Can he eliminate headcount? Can he introduce new systems and processes. Can he save us from Cra? Or can he save us from? You know? Total destruction? All sorts of different things. So. yeah, so.  And there’s then there’s the emphasis. So people sell their companies by using bolding and maybe capitals more than they’re selling their their their title, their job title. Well, this is not their company’s resume, this is their resume. The wrong emphasis is on, you know, and then, underneath the title, which is in bold capitals, there are some responsibilities that the Ats and the reader. The human eye needs to see at the other end they need to see. Generally they need to see direct reports, indirect reports. Your Capex budget, your opex budget, and if you have it, your P. And L. Now, if it’s international job, they need to see well how you know how many countries have you got staff in and things like that? Or how many branches are you responsible for, or whatever that would be in small letters? And then this is the sale. This is what people have difficulty in, and it just blows my mind. They can’t sell themselves. So you build the acronym their sales stories around. I don’t call myself a resume writer anymore. I call myself a storyteller. so I tell stories on behalf of my clients based on their performance. Because you, if you were to go on a job search, you’re not going to be hired for your responsibilities. You’re going to be hired for your results, your accomplishments, your achievements, your performance. So you need to Now, this is where these the ats comes into like again some of the star stories I write for people, you know, like resurrecting a company. They were in deep, deep trouble. They got bank debt. They got all sorts of different stuff wrong with it. They got the tax authorities after them, and all that jazz they’ve resurrected that company. There’s a good word for you resurrected. So you know you revive it. And and so so that’s that would go. Maybe if I was right, maybe 10 lines somewhere like that. But scanning machinery. The Ats only allows you one block of text of 4 lines or more. Everything else has to be 3 lines. So what you can do is you can cheat. You can do the situation as one bullet either or circle bullet, and then you can sub bullet the task, the action and the result. So 3 lots, 3 further, 3 lots of 3, which is and then the total 12 lines. I’ve never gone to. I’ve never gone to a 12 line, but I’ve come close to about 10, maybe 11. But yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So you can split up the star framework into different points as necessary. So you’re not going over. It’s 3 lines. You’re not allowed to go over.

Martin Buckland: Not allowed to go even one character over 3 lines and one character that blows you out. Okay? So.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I, yeah, cool. I love it.

Martin Buckland: Sure. So it makes it. The resumes today. It makes the interviewer’s life at the other end a lot easier because they’ve got the questions there, almost yeah, to ask really a run through of your resume.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, yeah, I guess you’re you’re begging for the question, then, other than the stories that you shared in your resume. Do you have any other stories that you can share where you solved a problem made money save money, whatever it is. Right? So you can kind of anticipate that. That’s.

Martin Buckland: Performance after poor sack it out at this end rather than the earlier end of the career. I normally cut it off about 13 or 14 years, and then really scale it back and then save the world or something. In which case that’s a star story. Yeah, you have to tell the story. But.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So I have heard that the most recent titles or positions that you had you share more detail and then less as it goes back in time.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But one and a half star stories per year. That’s the measure. So people said to say to me, Oh, I haven’t got a 1, and I haven’t got any accomplishments. Well, I say, well, sit with me because I’m an ex police officer as well, so I’m a detective. And I pull. I pull literally pull stuff out of them. And they like, Whoa, wow, like, that’s flipping. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. So happy. They’re so overjoyed. And but everybody. but it’s just a question of getting in to the right mindset of doing, sitting down and thinking about them.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: This is another reason, I guess, is a bit of a side here for us to update our resumes. Even when we’re not on the job market. Maybe every year after you’re done your performance review, you take your accomplishments, turn them into star stories on your resume, and then it’s so much easier when the time comes right.

Martin Buckland: Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, I get. I mean, I put it on Linkedin all the time. You know, you should update your resume every 3 or 4 or 5 months, and you know they don’t believe it. And then, of course, you know, they they say I’ve got a job offer, and I need your my resume by tomorrow. But I’ve been watching your Linkedin profile. You know your posts, and whatever well, it doesn’t happen that way. It takes, you know, working with me can take up to a month. But yeah, like. And they’re so frustrated. Yeah. but that will always have your resume prepared, because tomorrow, Friday or next Monday next Tuesday, an executive recruiter could call you with your dream job the job of your dreams, and you don’t know how you haven’t got an up-to-date resume. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. So how much? What proportion of the space of your Cv. Whether it’s 2 or 3 pages, as you were saying, should your your professional experience take up, and then what are the sections? After that.

Martin Buckland: So you should really I mean, the rule of thumb is either do 2 complete pages or 3 complete pages. You don’t do 2 and a half, 2 and a 3rd or 2 and a quarter whatever, because, psychologically, what? What does that center? The reader at the other end? Right. So then the education comes in. So here again people sell their universities. and then they they just they totally ignore their degree or their diploma or certification.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh!

Martin Buckland: Designation. You you you you highlight the designation. Yeah. And if you’ve got a thesis or you’ve got you know something you’ve done like a capstone project or something. You put that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Scholarship, maybe a scholarship or an academic award, or whatever. Yeah.

Martin Buckland: Yeah? Yeah. Or if you’ve been on an Emba program and you’ve done international modules. So you’ve done a module in London, Paris and New York, and maybe San Francisco or Dubai. You put that in there, because that shows shows you shows the reader that you know, you’ve got international background as well.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? Okay? So you’ve got education. And also that should be reverse chron chronology as well. Right.

Martin Buckland: That’s chronological. Yeah. And then then you can go into things like memberships and affiliations, licenses and certifications. Then you can go into patents, publications, presentations. I normally, if a lot of people got, you know, lots of presentations and lots of publications, I cheat. I go to an addendum. So I had create enough a 4th page what you do. But you ask the reader at the other end if they would like the addendum. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right beautiful. So I was having this conversation with my son, who’s graduating from college, and he was asking for help with his resume, and he had it at about one and a half pages, and I said, You know, it should really be 2 pages. And he said, No, mom, we’ve actually been told one page. So I’m curious what you think of. So he’s going out on the job. By the way, he successfully secured the job of his dreams. Yeah. One page for him graduating unless he’s got extensive work experience prior to going to school, or whatever. Yeah, that that’s perfect. But sadly, you know, when I mean, as you know, I specialize at the emba level. So

Martin Buckland: the career services at lots of business schools. They don’t. they. They’re more vastly out of date and.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, I got a cat walking in front of me. You can see that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Just saw a whitetail go by.

Martin Buckland: Because I work from home.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s awesome. So anyway. So yeah, so one page is like, No, no, you can’t create an Ats friendly resume on one page. But.

Martin Buckland: Services are giving. People spend 200,000 Usd to go through those programs. And then the career services say, Do one page that’s like a cardinal sin.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Wow. Okay.

Martin Buckland: So that’s go on top of this niche.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, what about? At the bottom of our resume, where we have, you know, interests and hobbies. And and you have, you know, like, I led the toastmasters group of Toronto for 3 years from this. Whatever you have, the things that you’ve done in the community, maybe with your church or your hobbies, the clubs, etc, and personal interests. What are some do’s and don’ts? There.

Martin Buckland: Anything political, anything religious sadly. We’re still in a discriminatory age. Unless you’re applying to a political party. Unless you’re applying to a faith-based organization, then put it in. But leave that out because we can still discriminate against you. But yeah, and if you’ve got some community, Red Cross, or you’ve got Princess Margaret or something, yeah, or something in the community. And you’ve raised money. Then put that in. There are exceptions to that rule. I mean, I’ve had one client who’s who’s climbed to Mount Kilimanjaro? Mount Everest? Mount Blanc, the 5 top mountains in the world. Well, what does that tell the reader at the other end? You know there’s a lot of persistence. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. you’re reminding me of a conversation I had with a client a couple years ago, and I was coaching him on his personal brand, and about 3 sessions in it was our 3rd coaching session. He said, sorry, I look like such a mess. I just came in from a run, and I said, Oh, this hasn’t come up in our conversation yet. You’re a runner, he said. Oh, yeah, I’ve run several marathons. In fact, I’m training for the. And I was like. how did this not come up? He said. I don’t think it’s relevant. I said exactly what you just said. It’s very relevant. 1st of all, it’s interesting. Secondly, it shows that you have discipline. and it shows that you have perseverance, especially because it is an endurance Marathon, right? And.

Martin Buckland: Oh, sure!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So we ended up putting on his Linkedin profile on the headline we added, Avid Runner, and his banner image is a picture of him at the starting line of some Marathon that he ran, I think, in in Africa or somewhere.

Martin Buckland: Oh, right? Yeah. The those crazy ones across the desert. Yeah. Oh, my, gosh, yeah, yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, so, so.

Martin Buckland: An employer how? There’s tons of hard skill, what? Many soft skills that go into that? Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So you know, I remember again, this was when I was much, much earlier in my career. It wouldn’t show up in my resume now. But when I was  20 year old, when I was 18, I skated in the closing ceremonies of the Olympics in 1980, and I carried the Canadian flag into the stadium. Okay? So I had under interests and hobbies, I said, ex-competitive figure. Skater carried the Canadian flag. Inevitably, every interview I had in the 1st 10 years of my career they would say, Okay, we want to get into this, Andrea. But 1st of all. tell us your experience from the about the Olympics. Right? So.

Martin Buckland: Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So what I’m hearing from you, though Martin is. you don’t want to list every interest and hobby that you have. Ask yourself whether the way that you spend your time outside of work is telling a story that is going to support the narrative around. Why they should hire you, especially in terms of maybe your soft skills. and to stay away from political and religious.

Martin Buckland: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So in Industry Association. So if you’ve been voted nominated by your peers to become, I’ll go on the executive team of your local chapter or the National Association. Then that’s valuable as well. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right, right, as, of course. And we didn’t talk about this. But what about volunteer volunteer positions specifically, and and board work.

Martin Buckland: Sure that would.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Be a separate section, right?

Martin Buckland: Yes, yes, so so a board director resume. So if you’re if you’re the latter end of your career, I would encourage you as a career coach. You’ve got management, the leadership abilities. Significant. I would encourage you, maybe, to go for a board position. Now, a board resume is a totally different document to a. to a corporate resume. It, focuses on risk management. Audit any type of audit and governance.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Governance. Right? That’s right. Okay.

Martin Buckland: But different format. So the so that’s that’s another podcast. Okay, that’s another. That’s another episode. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Is there anything else you want to add about resumes or Cvs in terms of whether it’s the human reading it or and or the the algorithm, the software reading it any do’s and don’ts that we’ve missed.

Martin Buckland: Your marketing sales collateral. So you you’re, I tell people I break it down to the basics. You are a product, and you’re sending that product to the market, whatever market that may be. So the the package for that product is your resume on one side, your Cv. And then your Linkedin profile on the other side, so don’t mess around with either, or you’ve got to have them as close to perfect as possible. But there is no such thing, I’ll admit there is no such thing as a perfect resume or Cv. But you can get pretty damn close.

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Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, I talk about updating is one thing, and then optimizing is another. Okay, so let’s let’s assume that people have their. We’ll move on to Linkedin profile. What are the most important elements in terms of you know where you can optimize your profile on Linkedin.

Martin Buckland: Okay, so the number one is you should have your a professional picture of yourself. Not with not hugging your spouse, or with your latest fishing catch wiggling in the whatever.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I got. I got one for you. The seat belt. You can see the seat belt beside the person’s head.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, yeah. Look at the.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: They were at a red light, and they looked at themselves in the mirror. They’re like, Oh, I look pretty good! And they took a Selfie, and then they uploaded it to link.

Martin Buckland: I know some crazy ones. Well, what’s what’s the future employer going to think about that? You haven’t had the time, and you don’t need to go to a professional photographer today, you can get your spouse or kids even to take a picture of you. Yeah. So yeah, have your professional picture. If you don’t have a professional picture, A that raises doubt. And B, you miss out just by simply putting your picture in that circle there, Google in its algorithm visits to your Linkedin profile will give you for free, for free will give you a 14014001400 uplifting algorithm to your Linkedin profile for free. It takes you 2 min. Then behind that you picture, you need to have a picture something related rather than that terrible gray scale, Linkedin, the 3 shades of gray, as I call it. terrible. It’s boring so you can go to canva. Set canva.com for free, and you can download it. You can get a template, and you can put one of their thousands of pictures in there. Something’s relating to your career.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Martin Buckland: Then beneath that, then you need to have and then you need to have your 220 word or 220 character. Sorry, headline. This is your sales pitch. This is the 1st thing that human eyes see. Don’t just do 20 or 80 fill those 220 up. And then so really give a lot of thought to drafting and presenting this 220 character headline. And then you have your the contact info. So you need to have you need to customize your Linkedin URL. So when you join Linkedin they give you a default address, and you you have numbers and letters after your name or letters numbers. So now you need to go and take those letters and numbers out of your name for 2 reasons. A. It’s far more professional.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes.

Martin Buckland: And you put that new one on your on your Linkedin profile. And B, here we here again, Google can be your best friend. It gives you another 400% uplift. So having a picture in a circle and having your customized Linkedin address Google for free will give you an 1,800% uplift in in algorithms traffic to your website. So yeah, so

then you need to. You need to start filling in all the sections. So the more text you put on Linkedin, the more Google will like you. You’ve got to bend to Google Google is your boss. So as I say, so the more text you put in. So you need to have you need to be active on Link. Well, you need to have the about section. The about section is heavily weighted on Google. You’re allowed 2,600 characters.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Within the last I was, gonna say, a couple of months. It’s within the last year. Linkedin moved the about section from far farther down in our profiles. They moved it right up, and I was like, Aha! Ding, ding, ding! They’re telling us how important that section is. Right.

Martin Buckland: Very, very important. So so you’re allowed 2,600 characters, but the magic number, apparently in my community, because I hold some certifications in Linkedin. My community is about 1,900, so don’t go to 2,600. Keep it to about 1,900.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Martin Buckland: Next section down is activity. You need to be, even when you’re in gainfully employed having fun at work, and whatever Linkedin is still your advertising platform, so you need to be active on Linkedin. Don’t just drop off, Linkedin. I’ll give you a good story here. Now, this is not just one. There’s several clients. So I tell them you know that when we have the wrap up call and they’ve got maybe got a job. I say. keep on, Linkedin. I want to see you on Linkedin, even while you’re gainfully employed. So you know, I don’t see them for about 5 years. And then suddenly, they’re active on Linkedin. So what I do? I look their file up and I look their telephone number up and I pick the phone up and say, Oh, hello, Mike! I hear you’ve been downsized or terminated, or whatever. And they said, Well, how do you know? And I say, well, I haven’t seen you on Linkedin for 5 years. Don’t you remember that conversation? Yeah. And oh, yeah, it’s a sudden wake up call, well, Google doesn’t like that. Recruiters don’t like that and any other career decision maker don’t just like you dropping off. This is your tool.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Martin Buckland: Don’t be. You don’t need to be as vociferous on Linkedin as you as you are when you’re in career transition. You’re in career transition. That’s what I call it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I just I want to underscore what you’re saying here. And actually, I want to take a step back. You and I have a mutual friend, who’s an executive recruiter, Sharon Majin. And she told me a couple years ago, she said, you know, Andrea, 5 or 10 years ago. if I was placing someone into a position, and and I had a contender, an applicant who I thought very highly of, and their Linkedin profile was not complete and not optimized right? So they had the Grayscale Banner image. They didn’t have their headline filled in. Their about section was abysmal. Whatever she said I would more often than not depending on their background, and the conversation that we had, I would give them the benefit of the doubt, I’d say. Well, he or she must be very busy. And she said.  that doesn’t hold anymore. Linkedin is not just a job searching platform. It is a legitimate professional network period, right? Like we have. We have our in-person network. And then we have our online network. Hopefully, they are overlapping to some extent. But but actually, they’re they’re often not. And it’s an incredibly valuable tool to you. So so even if you’re not into posting all the time, you absolutely need to have it updated and optimized. And then she said, furthermore, people take. you know, they say, Oh, I don’t want to be on. I don’t like social media. I don’t want to be posting, she goes. Do you share articles with like, do you email people articles when you see articles that are interesting? Of course you do. Do you connect people in your network with each other. Of course you do. So. Why don’t you do it on Linkedin? Right? Yeah. Introduce people in the direct messages, or when you find an article in ink, magazine, or Hbr, or Forbes, or Fast Company, that you really like, post it, and ideally post it with your comments, post it with a love. This article recommend it for people that are interested in blah blah. I would add one more point, or I especially loved point number 2. It’s not. You don’t have to write a big article every time.

Martin Buckland: Or or get a call to action. Well, this is a great article on so and so. What are your thoughts.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Martin Buckland: And you’re trying to get conversation trying to get dialogue. And yeah, I mean, the 3 pillars of activity are, create your own content. Share content, like off Hbr or at Forbes or anything, and then comment on content. So, and then I tell my clients who are in career transition make Monday, Wednesday, and Friday one of those do one of those each week. So create comment or share, and it gives you authority as well, it gives you that thought leadership, that subject matter expert. You do it. I do it. And when people are thinking about personal branding, or whether they’re thinking about, resume writing or executive coaching. We get calls because we. They see us on Linkedin.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. That’s right. You want to be top of mind. 

Martin Buckland: every full time job is a temporary job in my mind, because today you could be terminated at any time. Sharon will tell you. I’ll tell you every every Monday and Tuesday in the Greater Toronto area alone, about 1,600 to 1,750 people are laid off every Monday and Tuesday. so you could be one of those 1,600 1,700 1,800 people terminated. Oh, I didn’t know it was coming. It’s such a shock to me. Your Linkedin isn’t up to date. Your resume is about 10 years out of date. You’re stranded.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes, that’s right. All right. Any last points you want to make about the Linkedin optimizing and updating our Linkedin profile before we move on to the rapid fire questions.

Martin Buckland: I would say, you need to have recommendations. Because when we when we hire people we look for. We look for red flags or red, the red light or traffic light, and one of the red flags or the red traffic light is, you don’t have recommendations.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hmm.

Martin Buckland: Or you. Your last recommendation was in 2,012, 2,010. Well, so what’s that going to? What’s that going to tell me nobody wanted to recommend you since 2,012, so I would suggest that you know you when you leave a company, or you just keep on. If your boss retires, ask him or her to give, or they move on to another company, ask him or her to update your Linkedin profile. Give you yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love that. So there’s a couple catalysts that you can use. I know some people. They’re not getting recommendations, not because they’re not good folks, and they’re not doing good work, but maybe they’re a little embarrassed about asking or hesitant to ask folks for the recommendation. So I love this idea when you get your annual feedback, and you know someone’s raving about you, you could say, Do you? Do you mind writing a testimonial, or or a review, or whatever about me. The other thing that I’ve done is when my clients are like Andrea. Thank you so much. This has really been transformational. That’s when I say, do you mind writing me a recommendation, or can I use a testimonial on my website, or on Linkedin, or wherever it is.

Martin Buckland: And they could be external from the company as well. If you’re in the corporate bend all slash suppliers, or they could be clients, slash customers as well.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s right.

Martin Buckland: Or if you just graduated out of an emba program, one of your professors and a couple of your cohorts.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s a great idea. That’s a really good professor or a teacher or an instructor absolutely, absolutely. The other thing you can do.

Martin Buckland: Stop your career management. You are in charge of your career, not your employer. They can. You’re just a number on their general ledger, and when they hit times where cash flow would maybe bad, or they’re changing direction or something else. It’s often not against you, right? Because of circumstances, maybe beyond their control or definitely beyond your control, that they decide to let you go. And you’re just you’re just left out stranded.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Martin Buckland: Always get a Linkedin profile recommendation written that your company would give it. Give it. Give one or 2 to you when you’re terminated in your when you go into a company in your job, offer.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Beautiful, absolutely.

Martin Buckland: You have to be prepared for being terminated when you go into a job. Yeah, but it’s crazy world.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Well, I’ve heard that. You know you’re I think you may have even shared this with me, Martin, that your 1st day on the job is the 1st day you start looking for your next job. Did you.

Martin Buckland: Exactly. That’s my motto, yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Congratulations on your new job. Start looking for your new job. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Okay. are you ready for The 3 Rapid Fire Questions.

Martin Buckland: I’m ready.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, 1st question, are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Martin Buckland: Well, I think I’m quite an extrovert. In fact, I go off the off the off the railings.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You know I have to tell you fewer and fewer of the folks that I’m interviewing are saying that most of the people are saying that they’re introverts. But you, me and Sharon, the 3 of us, are off the charts. Extroverts. Yeah, interesting.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, very interesting.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Question number 2, what are your communication, pet peeves?

Martin Buckland: Well, number one. And it’s pretty paramount most recently in the global is lying. Yeah, not being honest with people not being open and in open and frank. There’s nothing wrong in being open and frank, and being courteous. Courteous courtesy costs nothing.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Courtesy costs nothing. I love that. Okay. Question number 3, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending lately.

Martin Buckland: Yeah, now, I’ve cheated on this. I got 3. Okay, so and I think you will be, you would be interested in all these 3 podcasts. So the world, the world of work, by Dr. Nima Pasha, out of the Uk, from Henley Business School.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

Martin Buckland: And that she has some fascinating. I’ve met her a couple of times, and she has some fascinating gift guess, and then the application from the Associate Dean of the Saeed Business School, which is the University of oxford.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Martin Buckland: And one of the emba programs that I’m really connected with the trium program, which is from London School of Economics, Hsa. In Paris, and Nyu stern in New York. That’s trium connects. So those 3 I listen to constantly. I in fact, I I get so excited by them because they really are good podcasts.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Excellent. I am going to put links to all 3 of those podcasts in the show notes. And before I let you go, I’m going to ask. Do you have any advice for folks who are, you know, in career transition? And they’re they’re trying to show their best face in terms of their resume, and in terms of their Linkedin profile and and everything else that they need to do in terms of interviewing any general advice for these folks.

Martin Buckland: Well, yeah, there is light at the end of the tunnel. But I mean, people just go into career transition and they sit on the couch. Well, you’re not going to get a job sitting on the couch. You need to be proactive. So you need to use Linkedin as an online platform. But you need to get out going to in person. Meetings like meetup.com. And here, where we are in Toronto meetup.com have different meetings for all sorts of different things. Some of them are weird. But okay, you need to network within in your industry, networking, networking, networking, building your network while you’re gainfully employed, not just when you’re in career transition and managing your career when you’re gainfully employed, not when you’re in career transition.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s wonderful advice, and then your your resume and your Linkedin profile are like the tools that you’re using to reinforce and communicate your expertise and your abilities and your track record. I love it. Thank you so much, Ma rtin, for sharing all of your incredibly valuable general and specific advice. The detailed advice on our updating our resume and our Linkedin profile, and generally for job seekers. Thank you so much.

Martin Buckland: Oh, it was a pleasure. Hopefully, people have got some good information that now they can launch a job search and they have an ats resume, and they have a fully functional Linkedin profile.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, there’s a lot to keep up to date on. So thank you for helping us with that.

Martin Buckland: Well, thank you for having me on your podcast.

Wow.  The world really has changed hasn’t it? I mean, we keep reading and hearing about how AI has changed the world of work. I guess that includes job searching and resume writing. Thank you again, Martin for sharing your valuable expertise with us.

Before I share three key learnings with you, I want to encourage you to think about the opportunity that you have. Whether you’re vaguely considering a career change or perhaps you’re going hard on the job market, having a complete understanding of best practices for your CV and your LinkedIn can be a competitive advantage for you. Think about the significant proportion of resumes that are rejected outright because they don’t comply with ATS standards – the applicant tracking system. Now that you’re aware of the ATS and it’s constraints, again, you have an advantage.

Now, as always, I’m going to share with you three key learnings that I hope to reinforce coming out of my conversation with Martin.

So first how to THINK about optimizing your résumé. Imagine just five years ago. You find a job that you’re interested in applying for. What do you do? You would merge your updated and complete resume with the job posting. Knowing that some people would only send a generic résumé, you would believe, probably correctly, that customizing your résumé to conform to the specific job posting, including the vocabulary they use and the skills that they’re looking for will give you an advantage. This was the gold standard just a few years ago.

Today, when you apply for a job you need to cover off 4 things when it comes to your résumé. Do you know what they are? The first two are the things that I just mentioned. You start with your updated and complete résumé. Then you customize with the words, phrases and skills identified in the job posting. There are two more things to merge. Do you know what they are? Based on the conversation with Martin that you just heard you can probably guess that you need to optimize your résumé based on the ATS applicant tracking system. You need to make sure that your résumé makes it through the first cut. That your résumé is not rejected, based on its formatting. That would be such a shame. More on that in a minute. So ATS compliance is the third thing you need to make sure you cover in terms of your résumé. The fourth and last element that you need to include is your personal brand. If you’ve been listening to the talk about talk podcast for a while. You probably know exactly what I mean when I say personal brand. You need to clearly identify the unique skills, expertise, experiences, and passions, that distinguish you relative to other people in the same industry or with the same job. The keyword is unique. What is that unique thing that you want the person –the human—who’s reading your résumé, to know about you.

SO there are now four things to cover off when preparing your resume – 1. it needs to be updated and complete, 2. it needs to be customized ror the specific job, 3. it needs to confirm to ATS standards, and 4. it needs to communicate your unique personal brand.

Ensuring you nail these 4 things will give you a competitive advantage. That’s the first key learning I want to reinforce.

The second key learning is a list of DO NOTs. Sure, I could list a bunch of things you should do. But instead Im going to list the DO NOTs.  Sometimes the do nots are more helpful.  Especially since we are hoping to not get booted out by the ATS.

There you go – the second learning I want to reinforce is the list of DO NOTs. Now the last learning. 

It’s actually a gift from Martin and me.  It’s a document that very clearly outlines exactly how your resume should look “above the fold.’  That’s the top third. From your name and designation, to the various summaries and down to the list of your specific skills. We’ve made it very easy for you to find this document and download it.  You can find the link in the shownotes, however youre listening to this podcast, or you can go to talkabouttalk.com/ATS. As in Applicant Tracking System.  Just go to talkbouttalk.com/ATS.

And that is everything for this episode! I dongt know about you, but I personally leraned a lot in this episode. Thanks again to Martin Buckland.  You can find all of Martin’s coordinates in the shownotes for this episode.  And my coordinates are there too! 

You’ll find a link to signup for my free email newsletter. 

There’s also a link to my LinkedIn account, so you can follow me there and maybe even send me a DM. 

If you enjoyed this Talk About Talk podcast, please make sure you subscribe. And don’t forget – you can also WATCH Talk About Talk on our YouTube channel – yes, you can WATCH the Talk about Talk podcast!  

Whether youre watching or listening, I want to say thank you for being here. 

Talk soon!

The post Update Your RESUME & LINKEDIN with Martin Buckland (ep.178) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Do you have an ELEVATOR PITCH? Not a rehearsed script, but a sentence that articulates your unique brand? In this bonus episode, Andrea shares a popular episode of the Under the Influence podcast hosted by epic storyteller Terry O’Reilly, focused on “Elevator Pitches.”

Welcome to this bonus episode of the talk about talk podcast. Are you curious what this is all about? This episode was inspired by my conversation about storytelling with Terry O’Reilly a few months ago. Terry is the host of the under the influence podcast, and he’s an epic storyteller.  If you haven’t listened to our conversation yet, I encourage you to go back and listen to Talk About Talk episode 173.

During that interview, Terry and I started talking about Elevator Pitches. That’s when this happened.  Take a listen:

Andrea Wojnicki: My favorite elevator pitch of all time is, you know, the Sigourney Weaver aliens movie. Do you know what the elevator pitch was for?

Terry O’Reilly: Jaws in space.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes, I probably learned that from you, Terry.

Terry O’Reilly: Yeah, you may have.

In case it wasn’t clear – I shared with Terry my favorite elevator pitch of all time – It’s the pitch for the movie Aliens.  I can just imagine the writer pitching this Aliens movie to the Hollywood producer. Saying, “what’s this movie all about?  Well, think Jaws in Space.” Three words. “Jaws in Space.”  Beautiful.

As I was sharing that with Terry, it occurred to me – WAIT!  I think I originally learned that story, that elevator pitch, from Terry!  I think I learned that from one of his Under the Influence episodes.  That was pretty funny.  Kind of embarrassing,  But Terry was very gracious.

I subsequently re-listened to Terry’s Under the Influence episode on Elevator Pitches – and it’s fantastic. So – here we are with our bonus episode. Now YOU’re going to hear that episode! You’ll hear Terry describe that elevator pitch for the Aliens movie, and a whole lot more.

Here’s your task: I encourage you to listen to this episode through the lens of improving your personal brand narrative. Based on your unique expertise and passions, based on your superpowers, and based on Terry’s guidance in developing a compelling elevator pitch, is there a phrase you can use when youre introducing yourself?

For those of you who’ve been in my workshops or private coaching, you know that I am not a fan of the rehearsed elevator script. You know, that overly-rehearsed, too long, too generic ramble that you hear people recite when theyre trying to impress you?  That’s not what Im talking about.  Im talking about a few words, a phrase, maybe one sentence, that you can own.  Your “Jaws in Space,” if you will.

OK – here we go.  Here’s Terry.

The post BONUS: “Elevator Pitches” with Terry O’Reilly of Under the Influence appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Gift-giving is a form of communication. Yes, gift-giving can be stressful! Andrea shares the art and science of gift-giving, plus a gift for you – a free one-page summary of gift-giving do’s and don’ts.

Get your one-page summary of gift-giving do’s and don’ts:

TRANSCRIPT

Well, hello there! Wow – the year is almost over. Can you believe it? It’s such a cliché, but the years really do go by fast.

Many of us mark the end of the year with a gift. It could be a personal gift – for a family or friend. Or it might be a professional gift for a client or a colleague. It might be a THANK YOU gift. Or you might be celebrating the Winter Solstice or Saint Nicholas Day, Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, … or maybe you’re just celebrating the new calendar year? Chances are you’ve got some gifting to do.

Chances are you’re also a bit stressed out

Don’t worry – I got you! In the episode, you’re going to learn what the research says about gift-giving. I’m going to share a framework and specific do’s and don’t. I ALSO have a gift for you! Are you ready?

Welcome to TAT podcast episode 177 – Gift-Giving Do’s & Don’ts

This is a re-release of a previous episode – way back at episode 38. I just re-listened to that episode, I have to tell you, it’s ALL there. You’ll learn a lot – I promise.

Certainly, a few things have changed since then. Like the obvious one – there’s AI. Have you tried using AI to help you with your gift giving? I must admit, I have. “Hey Chat GPT, what’s a great gift for a client who’s constantly referring new business to me? Or what’s a great gift for my 17 year old son who’s obsessed with hockey?

Of course, the more specific you get about the person you’re gifting, the better the AI recommendations. As with all things AI, the personal human touch is what makes a big difference.

Now, before we get into this, I want to give YOU a gift.

Alright let’s do this!

 Yes, gift-giving is a form of communication.  A significant one, it turns out.  Gift-giving is prevalent, it is a common phenomenon.  It is also highly symbolic.  The gifts we give and receive communicate a lot of things – about the giver, about the receiver, and about their relationship.

My goal for this episode is to help you mostly when you’re gifting someone, but also some things to think about when you’re receiving a gift.  By the end of this episode, you’ll have a list of things to consider, and yes, a few things to stop worrying about when it comes to gift giving.

If you guessed by the enthusiasm in my voice that I love this topic of gift-giving, well, you’re right. I first researched gift-giving over 15yrs ago when I was a doctoral student. Those of you who have been listening to previous Talk About Talk podcasts may recall that my main topic of academic research when I was a student was WOM. It occurred to me that WOM (or consumer recommendations about what to buy and warnings about what to avoid) was like a gift from one consumer to another.  So, at the time, I decided to study gift-giving to help me with my WOM research.  

Well, I can tell you that that research on gift-giving has stayed with me.  I can’t be in a room when a gift is being opened (whether the gift is from me or to me or whether I’m just an observer), I always go back to thinking about this research. It’s like having a whole different lens through which to observe the gift-giving phenomenon. Are you curious?  I can’t wait to share it with you.

CONTEXT

You know that feeling when you give a gift to someone and they absolutely LOVE it? It feels fantastic, doesn’t it?  

The opposite is true too though.  Gifting FAILS. Have you ever put a lotta  time and effort into finding an amazing gift for someone, and then – when the person opens it, you realize you bombed?  I can tell you personally that HAS happened to me – more than once.  And it really hurts – especially when the person, the receiver, is important to me and especially when I thought I nailed it.  It makes me question how well I know the person – and all sortsa things. 

I’m not sure if you ever considered this before, but gift giving is a form of communication. Have you ever considered that? Well, THAT is why we’re doing this podcast!

Gifts communicate things about us as givers, about also what we think about the receiver, and about what we think about our relationship with the receiver.  Layer onto that, gifts are highly susceptible to encoding and decoding errors (Sherry 1979).  In other words, misinterpretations (communication fails) can happen frequently in the gift-giving process.

So trust me – this gift-giving stuff is worth knowing.  Some of this research isn’t too surprising. For example, the significance of reciprocity in gift giving. In this podcast, you’ll learn what the research says about gift giving dynamics so that you can become a better gift giver and  a better gift receiver.  Or at least a more informed one. 

Let’s start with the significance of gift-giving.

SIGNIFICANCE OF GIFT GIVING

There is no Q that GIFT GIVING IS SIGNIFICANT.  There are two main reasons for this: the prevalence of gifts and the symbolism associated with gifts.  In other words: gift giving is frequent, and it has deep and multiple meanings.

Researchers in the areas of anthropology, economics, sociology, psychology, and consumer behavior have examined the gift-giving phenomenon in detail and concluded that gift giving is a process that integrates a society (Sherry 1983), and that the significance in gift giving is “uncontested in terms of retail sales alone”, accounting or about 10% of retail sales in NA. That is HUGE! In fact, there are even gift stores, right? (Sherry 1983) 

(SIGNIFICANCE) We give birthday gifts, teacher gifts, hostess gifts, thank you gifts, I could go on and on.  Clearly gifting is frequent. It’s a significant part of our culture. 

Gift-giving is also highly symbolic. Symbolic of the giver, of the giver’s beliefs about the receiver, and about the relationship between the giver and the receiver. Gifts can reinforce important relationships, take them to the next level, or even destroy them. Have you ever noticed how gifts-giving is a common complaint about people after a break-up? It’s true, right? And by the way, If you think that gifts don’t mater, that they aren’t significant, well, there’s symbolism in that too.

All this symbolism is probably why gift-giving induces anxiety. Much of the gift-giving research is focused on the premise that the obligation to give and receive might spark tension or anxiety. There’s also a strong evaluative component that exists at every stage of the gift giving process. 

Kids compare gifts they got for their birthday or Christmas, don’t they? Even adults – have you ever been involved in a conversation where people are comparing what gifts they received from their partners for Valentine’s Day? Yikes, right?!?

Not surprisingly, gift-giving research concludes that inappropriate gifts cause embarrassment, threaten social ties, and leave lasting impressions. That’s a lot of stress when you’re shopping for a gift, isn’t it?

Then there’s the stress of receiving a gift. Of course, we don’t want the person who’s gifted us to feel badly. But gifts can produce unwelcome feelings of obligation and guilt. Have you ever received a gift from someone, and you suddenly felt like the relationship was out of balance? That’s partly because gifts are construed as currencies that are exchanged, and they’re also symbolic.

THE GIFT ITSELF: COMMUNICATION AND SYMBOLISM

As I said before, gifts are a form of communication – gift-giving is symbolic. Gifts impart meaning. When you’re giving a gift you can think of it as being symbolic of three things: your own identity, your beliefs about the receiver, and your relationship with the receiver.

Sometimes Gifts “say” what cannot be said in words.  Because of this symbolism, Receivers read into the gift (and the giver knows this!!!)

Consider two people who are dating. There’s the symbolism associated with traditional gifts like flowers or chocolate, or when someone insists on paying for a meal.  Or the gift of jewelry. That’s all symbolic communication , right? 

Gifts can express all sorts of things, including things like: Interest, power, gratitude, an apology, compatibility (that’s a big one), and gifts can even indicate resources available (or affluence).

That’s a lot of pressure to find the right gift, right?  Well, I want to share with you a gift-giving model that can help us think about gifts in a way that might make this all seem slightly more rational. In a paper from 1993, CB researchers Sherry, McGrath & Levy highlighted how you can evaluate gifts across two dimensions: Substance and Sentiment.  

The substance is how much cash you spent. It could range from no cost (say, something you made) to something astronomically expensive, right?  

The second factor, sentiment, is the thoughtfulness and/or effort associated with the gift. A low sentiment gift could be a random gift card or a generic gift (like say, a teacher’s mug).  Examples of high sentiment gifts are things that are personalized or homemade or that took a lot of effort to procure. 

Here’s Professor Russell Belk, the multiple award-winning York University marketing professor who also appeared in Talk About Talk podcast episode #14 where he shared his expertise about how our POSSESSIONS communicate things about us. Professor Belk also has a lot of published research focused on gift-giving.  Here he is describing the sentiment associated with a gift:

”…It used to be insulting and still is to some degree, to give a monetary gift or even a gift card rather than tangible gifts that you’ve actually sought out and thought about and found to be appropriate to the recipient. Emerson said that the true gift should be a part of you. And so, you bring your skills and your interest to bear on the gift, from the receiver’s point of view. So from the recipient’s point of view, you’re more appreciative because it really is a part of that giver. If you send your secretary out to buy a gift for your partner, that’s inappropriate because they [you] haven’t put the time and effort and love and thought into it.”

So I know this is tricky because it’s a podcast and I can’t show this to you unless you go to the show notes, but imagine for simplicity’s sake a 2×2 matrix, where you have substance (or cost) on one axis and sentiment on the other.  There are four boxes.  So gifts are either high substance, high sentiment, or hi substance low sentiment or low substance high sentiment, or low substance and low sentiment.  

Can you guess which gifts are most appreciated by the receivers?  Well, you might be surprised. If you guessed high substance and high sentiment (the most expensive and most thoughtful gifts, you’re wrong! 

Apparently gift receivers experience displeasure at the extremes. Basically this means that if the gift is extremely high or extremely low on either substance or sentiment, then they don’t like that. If the giver was being too cheap or if they spent way too much.  Similarly, if they went to way too much effort – or if it was way too easy (like as Professor Belk said, you ask your secretary to go get a gift for your partner.  That’s too easy!) Another classic example here is the gift of cash.  It’s so easy, right?  Easy? Yes.  But appreciated?  Not so much.

(Of course, there are exceptions, depending on the person and the situation!)

Can you guess what kind of gift is most appreciated then?  Well, it’s actually the low substance, high sentiment gifts that are the most appreciated.  In other words the cheap but thoughtful gift.  Like the drawing child gives her parent.  Or the homemade meal that a one neighbor makes for another.

Most people don’t guess this, but it sounds about right when you think about it, doesn’t it?

Personally I find this 2×2 gift-giving matrix fascinating.  Yes, I think about it when I’m giving or receiving or even just observing a gift-giving interaction. It’s a really cool way to examine the whole gift-giving phenomenon. 

It’s also a helpful guide when you’re selecting a gift for someone.  All else equal, the sentiment is more important that the substance.  It really is the thought that counts

I’ve discovered though that some gift-giving scenarios don’t seem to quite fit into this 2×2. Two of these scenarios are surprise gifts and gifts from gift-registries .

First – the surprise gift. Last December I was at home working on my Talk About Talk podcast, when the doorbell rang.  Honestly, I was annoyed by the interruption.  But boy was I in for a pleasant surprise.  At the door was a woman who I met just a year earlier, in a professional context.  We’d definitely hit it off. She was at my door with an unexpected gift for me and my family.  A bunch of jumbo shrimps and high-quality steaks.  Whhhhaaaaat?  I was so overwhelmed with her generosity. It wasn’t the gourmet elements of the gift that impressed me (although trust me, it was very very much appreciated).  Rather, it was the complete surprise of there being any gift at all.  This got me thinking – sometimes the gesture of gifting itself is symbolic.  Regardless of the gift.  Maybe there should be a third dimension on this substance and sentiment two-by-two – or maybe it’s part of sentiment – call it the element of surprise. .

The second scenario that doesn’t fit perfectly into our 2×2 substance x sentiment matrix is gift registries. You know, for bar or bat mitzvahs or weddings or for people who are expecting a baby? I read recently that people who create gift registries almost always prefer something from their registry, versus something else.  Meanwhile, the gift giver might be trying to add some sentiment to the gift – some thoughtfulness or effort.  Have you ever done this before? I know I’ve done his before.  For a friend’s’ wedding.  Sure there was a registry, but I had to think of something they might like at least as much and that demonstrated how much I adore them.   But apparently, according to the research,  that was just a waste of time.  People who create registries generally just want stuff on their registry!  So don’t over think it.  Just buy something from the registry.  Got it?  Now we know.

THE GIFT-GIVING PROCESS: RITUALS & RECIPROCITY 

Researchers have also sought to describe the gift-giving process with models.  Many of these gift-giving models focus on three main steps:  giving-receiving-reciprocating. So as you can imagine, the model or process is circular – it never ends!

In his research, Professor Russell Belk, whom we just heard from, describes gift-giving as a self-perpetuating system of reciprocity. 

There are very few exceptions to the universal requirement to reciprocate. (Sherry 1983).  A few examples of people who may be exempt include work subordinates, wait staff, students, monks, and transients.  If you’re not one of these, then sorry to say, but you’re probably obliged to reciprocate.

Of course there are rituals associated with each of the elements:

These subtle but important elements associated with gift giving comprise the important rituals that become our cultural and our family traditions.  They also explain why  gift-giving expectations can be askew and feelings can get hurt. The customs that we grow up with inform our gift-giving expectations as adults, sometimes in ways that we aren’t even aware of.  

I asked Professor Russell Belk about this:

“Anytime two people get together they have to decide how they’re going to regard especially rituals and the way that we celebrate things and how we eat our dinner.

AW: Is a dinner a gift?

RB:  Yes, it certainly could be. And even such things as do you serve a [it] family style? Or does someone dish it out for you? It is a different sort of power….”

Wow.  Preparing a meal for someone is a gift? I definitely hadn’t thought of that.  See what I mean?

But I guess it makes sense.   They say that cooks are giving some of themselves when they present a meal.

So there’s a lot to think about in the gifting process. Not just for the giver.  But also in terms of the receiver.

RECEIVING 

Sometimes the receiver will experience unwelcome feelings of obligation and guilt (Belk & Coon 1991). And sometimes not only these negative feelings, but even the gifts themselves are unwanted. 

Sometimes the giver pays more for the item than the recipient values it, which is always awkward.  By the way, this partially explains why people ask for Christmas lists or gift registries. 

Despite all this anxiety, obligation and guilt, there is an expectation that the receiver will be gracious.  Here is Professor Belk again – 

”…the worst thing you can do is refuse the gift. To say I don’t want this. So somewhere in between would be re-gifting, where you take the gift to give it to someone else, hopefully not forgetting who was the original giver, giving it back to them. But in that case, this is developing as a more acceptable thing to do.”

It’s true. Regifting used to be extremely insulting, but it seems to be more acceptable, right? or at least talked about.  It’s almost a cliché. Nowadays re-gifting is even joked about as being environmentally responsible!  I’ve heard of schoolteachers who put all the teacher gifts they receive into a pile and telling their friends to help themselves.

Speaking of teacher gifts – teacher gifts may fall into the category of what we call token gifts.  They are small (ok not all – have you heard about the ridiculous teacher gifts that Manhattan private schools teachers receive from their students? We’re talking little blue boxes with diamond bracelets.  Crazy! Anyway, I digress.) Token gifts are small, they are less personal, and they are often expected or anticipated gifts that symbolize or communicate gratitude. Hostess gifts sometimes fall into this category.  A bottle of wine, some cocktail napkins, some flowers.  A relatively simple gift that communicates gratitude. You can probably imagine giving token gifts like these to someone you don’t know well, right?

The relationship between the giver and the receiver is significant here…

THE RELATIONSHIP

The nature of gift giving changes as relationships change. (Belk & Coon 1991) As relationships progress, gifts can become more costly and more personal. So yes, remember the 2×2 matrix? Well, as relationships progress, gifts typically move from the low substance low sentiment to the high substance high sentiment quadrant. 

And of course, people misfire with their gift-giving all the time! Giving too much, too little or too late can strain a relationship (Sherry 1983).

Gifts can also signal compatibility or incompatibility (Belk & Coon 1991). Here’s another model or theory to consider in the context of gift-giving: transitivity. DO you remember transitivity or balance theory from school?  

(+) x (+) = (+)

So assuming you’re buying a gift for someone you like (that’s a positive) and you choose something that you like (also a positive), you hope and assume they will like it too (another positive).  But if they DON’T, then maybe you don’t know the person? Or (gasp) maybe you don’t want to know the person? It’s about balance between the giver, the receiver, and the gift itself.  

Since gifts are so symbolic, they can communicate a desire to alter a relationship trajectory (Ruth Otnes & Brunel 1999) (Wooten 2000).  Imagine an unexpected, incredibly thoughtful and meaningful.  Maybe an intimate gift.  It kind of changes things, doesn’t it? 

When we communicate with people, we have our words, we have our tone, we have our body language, and, amongst other things, we also have our gifts.

Gifts are significant.

SUMMARY

Let me summarize now to help you think about gift-giving from a new, more rational perspective.

Gift-giving is significant. Simply put, gift-giving has the power to communicate a lot.  Of course, there are token gifts, but there are also not-so-token gifts, especially when the gifting occasion or the tangible gift itself is unexpected.

Just understanding the significance of gift-giving can help you with your communication and with your relationships.  And understanding the nuances of gift-giving can help you determine what you should worry about and what you shouldn’t worry about.

What should we worry about? Well, we should seriously consider the symbolism of the gift.  But also consider the gift givers’ individual situation – their culture and personal family upbringing. Sometimes we read into gifts unnecessarily when they were intended as tokens.  And sometimes we misinterpret based on divergent cultures or family rituals.

I hope you will give some thought to the substance and sentiment gift-giving model with the 2×2 matrix.  Remember that people typically don’t appreciate the extremes, and that the most appreciated gifts are often the low substance high sentiment gifts.

What should we worry less about?

Well, apparently we should worry less about how much money we spend (it really is the thought that counts!) 

And as for those gift registries and wish lists – just buy from them.  Stop trying to go above and beyond.  Just give them what they want!

OK – that’s it for this episode. Don’t forget my gift for you.

You can download your Free “Gift-Giving Guide,” a summary of the Dos & Dont’s of gift giving, including what t you should worry LESS about. Yes, I’m here to minimize your stress.

 Just go to talkabouttalk.com/gift-giving,  And download the 1-pager for free. You’re welcome.

Talk soon!

The post Gift-Giving Do’s & Don’ts (ep.177) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Extreme opinion seems to be the norm.  How many times have you consciously avoided a conversation about social or political views? “Remaking the Space Between Us” author Dr. Diana McLain Smith shares her insights with Andrea about how to start the conversation in an environment when toxic polarization is standard.

TRANSCRIPT

Meet Dr. Diana McLain Smith. I’ve interviewed a lot of high IQ folks here at the talk about talk podcast. But I have to say, Diana is off the charts. I met Diana when Amy Edmondson recommended that I read Diana’s book, entitled “Re-Making the Space Between Us.” This book is chalk full of relevant history, more current stories, and incredible insight. 

In the next 45 minutes, you’re going to hear my conversation with Diana Smith, and my summary of what we can do to help us re-make the space between us. 

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #176

My interview with Diana Smith was recorded just before the US presidential election. We decided to wait until after the election to share these insights with you. As November 5 came and went, Diana Smith’s insights, and our conversation were top of mine for me. The next day on November 6, I flew from my home in Toronto to attend a women’s leadership conference in Boston, Massachusetts. Yes, many of my friends said that I was crazy to go to the US. Anyway, when I was at the airport waiting for my flight to board, I started a conversation with a complete stranger. Interesting how this often happens when we’re traveling, doesn’t it? Of course, the election came up, and we explicitly decided not to mention which side of this political divide we support. But over the course of our conversation, it became very evident …

Have you had any conversations like this lately? This episode will help you navigate these conversations.

OK – I better introduce myself. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m an executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. At Talk about Talk, I coach ambitious executives to elevate their communication skills so they can communicate with confidence and credibility. To learn more about what I do, head over to talkabouttalk.com where you can read about the coaching and the workshops that I run. Plus there are lots of free resources for you on the TAT website, including all sorts of quizzes, tips sheets, and other resources. The one that I’m most excited about is the brand new TAT archetypes quiz. It’s kind of like a personality test, but instead of evaluating you on personality traits, you can learn which of 12 professional identity archetypes resonates with you. You can find all of these resources, including the archetypes quiz, on the talk abouttalk.com website.

Alright Let’s get into this. “Talking Extremes and Remaking the space between us.”

Let me introduce Diana, then we’ll get right into the interview.

Anyway, as I’ve often said you don’t need to take notes because I do that for you. So sit back and listen and I’ll provide a helpful summary for you at the end.

Now, Diana.

Dr. Diana McLain Smith earned her masters and doctoral degrees from Harvard University. Prior to graduate school, Diana was trained as a family therapist. Today, Diana is a renowned thought leader who has led change efforts in some of America’s most iconic businesses and cutting-edge non-profits. A former partner at the Monitor Group and a former chief executive partner at New Profit, Smith developed an approach to conflict and change called Leading Through Relationships (LTR)™. Diana’s frameworks and tools are captured in dozens of articles and in her books, entitled, “The Elephant in the Room” and “Divide Or Conquer .“ Her insights and expertise have been used around the world to turn intergroup conflict into a powerful force for change.

Here we go!

INTERVIEW

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Diana, for being here today to talk to us about “Remaking the Space Between Us.”

Diana Smith: I am delighted to be here, Andrea. I really am excited. I love the questions you sent me, and I think we’re going to have a great conversation.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Me, too. So let’s get right into it. I know from, you know, the outset of reading your book, and then it’s definitely confirmed in the epilogue which I just reread. I know that you feel optimistic about the future, despite all of the, if you want to say it, horrible things that are happening out there.

What is your hope for this book?

Diana Smith: Well, the hope for the book is actually that it gets in the hands of everybody, because I’m trying to correct for a bias on the part of the media. The media leads with what bleeds. And there was once a wonderful conversation that Judy Woodruff had with Roger Ailes, political operative, and he told her, “Here’s the thing about the media: you get two guys on the stage running for office. One gives you the Middle East peace plan, and the other one falls in the orchestra pit. Who do you think the media is going to cover? The orchestra.”

So I’m trying to correct for a profound bias that I think is discouraging everybody and exhausting everybody. It’s— you talk about it in your research— it’s this tendency to focus on the extremes. My hope is that I can help correct for that, so that people have enough energy to get reengaged as citizens and to start to heal the divides that have emerged over the past 50 years.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, beautiful. I mean, that sounds like Utopia, right? It sounds—it’s so—it’s utopic. Perhaps it’s also really, really challenging. I mean, every essay that you wrote in your book, I was like, “Oh, and there’s that!” Oh, and there’s our implicit bias, right? Oh! And you referenced my research. So my doctoral research, which I don’t talk about a lot in my business with Talk About Talk, but my research was on word of mouth, and particularly what motivates people to share their consumption experiences—the services and the products that they’ve consumed. And not surprisingly, there’s an asymmetrical U-shaped relationship between the valence of your experience, or the story for our purposes here, right? And whether or not you’re going to talk about it. In other words, people talk about extremely satisfying or dissatisfying consumption experiences, not the mediocre ones, because there’s nothing novel about them. There’s nothing interesting about a mediocre experience. It’s those experiences on the extremes that we talk about, that we remember. And as I was reading your book, I was thinking, this is exactly the same phenomenon—like we’re being pulled to extremes, which makes it very difficult to remake the space between us, right?

Diana Smith: So I’m not looking for Utopia. But let’s come back to that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Fair enough, yes.

Diana Smith: Just to come back to the question you just asked. I don’t much like mediocrity myself. Mediocre experiences. I’m sympathetic to that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Good job.

Diana Smith: With the media, they subscribe to what I call an outrage model of news. Okay? So they’re only focused on the people who go to the restaurant and get served a crappy meal and go, “God! This was awful.” Okay.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s right.

Diana Smith: But think about the people who go and they say, “Man, this is the best meal I’ve had forever.” They report on it. Right. Well, there are news outlets out there that are reporting on those “Wow! That’s great news” stories, but you don’t hear about them. It’s not part of the dominant news model, of an emergent news model. And that emergent news model is showing up in places like the Solutions Journalism Network, which I highly recommend your readers check out.

You can go there and look at their story tracker and find lots of stories that are the equivalent of a 5-star restaurant meal. Okay? And people will talk about them and exude happiness about them, and so on. The difficulty we have is that we’ve been so cultivated in the outrage model that we carry around in our heads an outrage mindset, which fits like a hand in a glove. Okay, so one of the things I’m hoping to do, partly through the book, why I wanted to get it in everybody’s hands, is I’m trying to cultivate—not only in the news, which I care about, but in people—an engaged mindset.

Which looks not just at the problem but at what people are currently doing to solve those problems by working together across divides, because, even though we differ dramatically, we do share common problems. And we actually have a lot of common goals, and more in common. A research organization has demonstrated through endless studies, and I highly recommend people check out More in Common, that suggests that we agree on more things than we disagree on. 67% of us are not in ideological extreme groups, and so those people are absolutely prepared and primed to get great stories that will motivate them to get involved.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, my goodness! I don’t know where to begin with the questions here. I think one of the stories in your book that I think—I told you this before—the interview that really resonated with me was the story about the young boy whose bedroom window was broken.

Can you share that story? I think this is really kind of setting the table here.

Diana Smith: I mean, there were 3 hate crimes in a row in Billings, Montana, in the 1990s, and this was the beginning of a movement called Not in Our Town. And I found the most poignant one of those crimes to be the 6-year-old boy who put a Menorah in his window at Hanukkah, and somebody threw a rock through it.

Prior to that, African Americans attending a church were terrorized by self-proclaimed skinheads, and before that, a Native American home was vandalized—the outside of their home was painted with a Nazi insignia and the word “die.” And the first thing that happened is the Painters Union went and painted that house for free.

And when asked why, he said, “Don’t other places come to the help of their neighbors when they’re not doing well? I mean, that’s what we do in Billings.” And then white neighbors escorted the African American congregants to their church. And then perhaps most notable, the local newspaper printed a copy of the Menorah and hundreds of homes put the Menorahs in their windows.

There was a woman who I have great respect for, and she did another film recently called Repairing the World about Pittsburgh, after the Tree of Life incident, where 11 people’s lives were taken by a white nationalist. Patrice O’Neal and her colleague, Riam Miller, went to Billings, Montana, back in the 1990s after these hate crimes had occurred to see what the neighborhoods did to respond. And she did a documentary called Not in Our Town, which you can find on PBS. Even though it’s quite old, the film quality isn’t great, it’s still an incredible film.

And she showed the film when she got back to Oakland, California, where she’s from, to communities in the Bay Area. And after people came from all over—by the way, it was like law enforcement and faith leaders and educators and regular citizens, and you know, the big auditorium with lots of people there—she showed the film, and then she turned to them and she said, “So, what do you think of Billings, Montana?” And they said, “I don’t want to talk about Billings, Montana. I want to talk about our town.”

“Are we creating a sense of belonging sufficient to reduce hatred?” Because they understood that one of the reasons hatred takes root is because people are isolated and are alienated, and people don’t have a role, and they don’t have a place to belong to.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And so…

Diana Smith: Not in Our Town is both about saying we won’t put up with this, but also about educating people about how hate takes root and helping people to become included.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. We all want to become part of… we have a need to join a collective or a tribe. Right? I know that was a theme in the book as well.

I’m sure this has occurred to you a million times, but it just occurred to me right now how sort of meta this is, right? We’re talking about how the media is focused on extreme messages, because that’s the news that sells.

But there may be an opportunity for us, for you—starting with you now being on this podcast and other podcasts, and with your book and everything—to use that idea of an extreme message. The downfall, if we don’t do what you’re hoping, what you’re prescribing here—is that it’s an extremely negative outcome. Is that not enough to get people’s attention? Do you know?

Diana Smith: I think it has gotten people’s attention. I think Kamala Harris’s campaign—whether you’re a Democrat or a Republican—just from an empirical point of view, I don’t think she could have sparked the enthusiasm she sparked, if it weren’t for how fed up people are with the… It’s not just extremism. This is… it’s negative. Hateful extremism.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? You can get…

Diana Smith: Dream, joy, love, and people solving problems. But what you’re getting here is extreme hatred, and people are tired of it. I read some article that talked about… I think it was Jumping the Shark, which was from an old TV show. The Fonz jumps the shark, and it was a metaphor for when a TV show has gone too far, and people just get fed up with it and sick of it. And so they start doing stupid things like having the Fonz jump the shark. Well, that’s what’s happening to the far right right now. Okay, it’s almost becoming a parody of itself, because people are tired of it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hmm, yeah, I love that. That they become a parody of themselves. That’s amazing. So back to the asymmetrical U-shaped relationship I was talking about—the extremes—but it is asymmetrical, right? Where, to your whole point, it’s the negative news that gets attention, that gets published, and then gets the attention, and then is recalled.

You know, I remember when I was studying word of mouth, there’s this sort of myth—this kind of common-sense myth—that we’ve all heard, that you know, negative word of mouth travels faster than positive word of mouth. And it was like, actually, no, it’s just that it’s recalled more. So we even recall negative messages more so than positive messages, and definitely more so than neutral messages.

Diana Smith: This is really important. And I think the people listening to you are probably saying, “Yeah, that’s right. You know, you’ve got this negative news, and we’re up against so much, what are we gonna do?”

And all it does is disempower people.

Okay? And there’s no question that for evolutionary reasons, for cognitive reasons, for social reasons, we’re all primed probably to be more responsive to negative messages as a way of defending ourselves from threat. True.

So, that’s a given. We really understand that. There are also lots of things that we, as human beings, have learned to self-discipline ourselves, because we know if we follow our instincts… I pick up the guy on the street who looks really cute… people are gonna say that’s inappropriate behavior. I know not to do that. I mean, there’s a whole lot of things that we have learned to socialize out of our responses because it’s detrimental to ourselves and detrimental to others.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Can I just say, at a social level, and also at an individual level? Right.

Diana Smith: Exactly. I mean, I’d get arrested. I mean, so yeah, right? And so…

This is the kind of thing where I think if people start to reflect on their own internal responses, and there’s been lots of research on this, we… you know, the negative messages target our “hot” systems in our brain, and Michelle, a psychologist, and his colleague, whose name I’m blocking right now, did research on self-control.

And they discovered that, you know, we have a hot system which reacts quickly, is emotional, overcomes our rational… it’s reactive. But they’ve learned that people can shift to their “cool” system with practice, and the more they practice it, the quicker they can shift to their cool system, which is reflective, is thoughtful, is mindful… all those kinds of things. So I think what I want to do is put control in the hands of people.

And I believe, by the way, if you look at the beginning of my book, I cite 15 citizen movements that have led nations out of darkness. I’m not believing this as a matter of faith. History tells us that we have more power than we are aware of. So I want to focus on what can we control…

And we control? We can control how we react to those messages. We can find better news sources, which I’d be glad to recommend later. Okay?

We can do lots of things to counter this. So I don’t want to suggest—and I think it’s problematic to suggest—that these forces are so powerful, we are helpless. We are not. We are vulnerable to those forces, but we are not helpless.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So let’s get into what some of your top suggestions are for ways that we can get traction in this quest. As I was, after we had secured or booked this interview, Diana, I was listening to a podcast with Scott Galloway, and he was talking about… he and his new co-host Jessica Tarlov just started a new podcast called Raging Moderates.

I just love the title. And he even smiled and joked about the title. So there are big things like you writing this book, like Scott and Jessica hosting this podcast, but what maybe… start with some of the little things that we as individuals can do. I guess proactively—not in the moment when we see a transgression—but I mean, like proactively, what can we do?

Diana Smith: Yes. Well, you know, I think the first thing is that we extend to ourselves the grace we wish others would extend to us, and we hope to extend to others. Okay, because…

We are going to get triggered. I get triggered all the time. I know you had Amy Edmondson on your show recently. And she’s obviously the thought leader behind psychological safety.

But, you know, we can’t always create psychological safety for other people, or be perfect, or react perfectly. I think it’s a natural instinct for us to distance from people who make us uncomfortable.

So I think one thing we can do is start to think about… What do we have to gain from interrupting that immediate response to get angry, distant, to run away?

And I think one thing is to help ourselves see, and to coach ourselves to see, that as a leader and as a colleague, for us to succeed, we have to have the biggest bandwidth possible for collaborating with people. That is in our interest as a leader and as a colleague. If you can’t deal with a lot of people, you tend not to be successful. So you have to increase your bandwidth anytime you find yourself getting angry, threatened, frustrated, upset.

Okay, essentially, what that person is telling you is that you’ve reached the limits of your competence. You’ve reached the limits of your bandwidth. You don’t know how to deal with this person, and therefore, you’re upset because it’s threatening to you.

If, instead of seeing it as a threat, you see it as an opportunity to expand your bandwidth, to expand your capabilities, to learn how to reach across divides. So that would mean doing things like reaching out to the person, finding out things you have in common…

Getting behind their eyes to see what they see, getting inside their heads to see what they experience. It’s not having a political conversation with them. It’s like, if somebody in a meeting says something inappropriate, you don’t have to call them out in the meeting. Afterwards, you can say, “I was surprised you said that. What’s going on?”

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Diana Smith: What’s going on? What are you… what are you going through? Right? What are you experiencing? And then try to help the person see things that you see that they might not. And a great book out now by Jeff Wetzer, I’d recommend him for your podcast, called Ask…

And he talks about how the most caring thing you can do for somebody is to get curious.

And so, you know, getting curious is really important. And then…

You know, the one thing Lincoln said, many brilliant things. But the one thing he said that I think tops them all…

Is, “I don’t like that man. I have to get to know him better.”

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, yes, I remember that. I love that.

Diana Smith: Okay? And I think if… I think it’s possible to remind ourselves of that. And then…

You know, I think in addition to what we can do when we’re face to face with people as leaders and colleagues, I think we can start to educate ourselves on what people are already doing to remake the space between us. There are organizations, and I can name a few, and you might put them in the show notes. There’s an organization called Starts With Us, and they’ll send you an exercise every day to get you to reflect on how you navigate the space between us.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, amazing. Yeah, I’d love to.

Diana Smith: It’s amazing. And this is like, you know, a few minutes a day. And then there’s the Listen 1st project, which lists about 150 organizations across the country, literally millions of people working at the local level in nationally connected groups, remaking the space between us by working on common problems together over time.

Another internet site that I highly recommend is Sharon says. So it’s on Instagram, and it’s Sharon McMahon’s site. Okay? And it has workshops, it has seminars, and then get in touch with organizations like Not In Our Town. They’re all across the country.

So, you know, what you can do… And then there’s another one called One Small Step, which will hook you up with somebody who’s completely different from you for 30 minutes so you can just talk about your life experience.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh, yeah.

Diana Smith: And then you can make a friend across a demographic or ideological divide. But no matter what…

Do not give up.

Do not withdraw.

Our democracy cannot survive if the people in that 67% give up. We have to keep our heads and our hearts in the game.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, we’re at a majority. And we need to use our numbers.

Diana Smith: Exactly.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So in a business context… At the very beginning, when you were answering that question, Diana, you were talking about, to paraphrase, diverse…

Groups… You know, the research shows, and I want to really reinforce this: diverse groups are proven to be more effective. So diversity in, particularly senior executives in an organization, organizations that have more diverse boards of directors…

You know, are more successful in terms of the metrics, the profit and bottom line that they’re tracking and other key metrics. So another way to think about this, if you want to be really sort of performance-oriented or rational from a business perspective, is…

Listening to diverse perspectives and internalizing them, and then maybe even acting on them or collaborating can be a competitive advantage.

Diana Smith: Oh, it is a competitive advantage. That’s why I go crazy when people talk about this as woke, or ideological, or, you know, soft or Kumbaya. I’m an extremely practical person, and I’m the most competitive person most of my friends know.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay. Good to know. Good to know.

Diana Smith: So I care about doing well. And in order to do well, I need to see things I can’t see.

And I can’t do that unless I tap the wisdom and the knowledge and the perspective of others. So it’s a very self-interested point of view, and in some ways, I consider myself a bit of an Imperialist, because I’ll grab any idea that I think is going to help advance something I really care about and get me to a goal, and you’re going to do that best with a diverse group of people.

So it’s too bad that that has become an ideological football, because no one’s going to win the game with that attitude.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Yeah, it’s like, it’s like the term diversity has become weaponized, which I know is a term you use. Right? It’s become weaponized when, in fact, what you’re talking about is…

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: …just the fact that we’re not all the same, you’re not prescribing a certain way of thinking, you’re actually…encouraging… I’m trying to not use the word diversity. You’re encouraging different perspectives.

Diana Smith: Yes, I’m encouraging learning.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So…

Diana Smith: …has been my life’s work is organizational learning. You know, we live in a competitive, fast-paced world, and organizations that can’t adapt can’t keep up, and you can’t adapt without learning.

And you know, if you’re drinking your own bathwater to use a disgusting image, you’re not going to get very far. So you need to be able to learn, and you need to be able to learn from people who think and experience differently than you, the world differently than you do, and have access to different information. And, by the way, I’ve spent my life and some of it with Amy, and you know, over 30 years looking at groups and organizations, do what we’re watching our nation do. Which is why I wrote the book.

Groups discounting each other rather than learning from each other.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Diana Smith: And yet the nature of the groups, and how they get divided in organizations is such that they have access to not only different information, but different kinds of information. They have different experiences, they have different competencies. So putting that all together is critical for the organization to survive, same goes for our nation.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, yeah, okay, so I have to… I have to confess, Diana…

When we first started this conversation, I did not share your optimism. I’m hopeful, but I was feeling a little bit more pessimistic, I’m just gonna admit, than I am now.

With your conviction of being ambitious. So I need… I need to just share this. I know for a fact that the people that listen to this podcast, my clients, and the podcast listeners…Almost a hundred percent of them have two attributes that I admire so much. One is their ambition and the other one is their growth mindset, right? And you were just talking about how you also have those traits and the combination of those two things has got to more of us to do all of the things that you’re talking about, right, to remake the space between us. So…

If you could also, just to get really practical here, maybe share some new sources. I know that there’s the one that you mentioned…

Diana Smith: Solutions, journalism, network. Better than most of them by far.

I think If you want a more balanced news, I think Reuters is probably the most balanced. but in terms of a solutions, orientation solutions. Journalism network is by far the best. But I want to come back to something that it’s a distinction that James Stockdale makes between being an optimist and having hope.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, because words are important.

Diana Smith: Yeah, I don’t self-identify as an optimist. So I want to read to you something that he said.

First of all, Vice Admiral James Stockdale survived 8 torturous years in a Vietnamese prison camp. Yeah. And so Jim Collins, business writer, Jim Collins, Good to Great, interviewed him, and he said, “How the heck did you survive?”

And he said, “You know, I never lost faith in the end of the story.”

“I never doubted, not only that I would get out, but also that I would prevail in the end, and turn the experience into the defining event of my life, which in retrospect I would not trade.”

He then went on to say that faith was very different from the optimists.

The optimists would say, “We’re going to be out by Christmas.” Then Christmas would come, and then Thanksgiving, and then, you know, Easter, and then Christmas would come again, and they’d set their sights on a date, and the date would pass, and they died of a broken heart.

Yeah, this distinction led to what’s called the Stockdale Paradox, which he put this way:

“You must never confuse faith that you will prevail in the end, which you can never afford to lose, with the discipline to confront the most brutal facts of your current reality, whatever they might be.”

And you saw in the book I confront some brutal facts in that book.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Diana Smith: Yet I never lose faith in the ability of humans to overcome those adversities because we have done so throughout history. The only question in my mind now is because of climate change, we have a time horizon that is imposed on us, and so our ability to climb the learning curve fast is absolutely critical, and the more people who despair and think it’s not possible, the slower we will go up that learning curve.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hmm. That is a beautiful point. Yeah.

Diana Smith: Hope is a political act.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay.

So speaking of time constraints…

You and I are talking today less than a month away from the U.S. elections. And I know that this episode is going to be released after…

But I want to ask you your top-line thinking about where we are and what might happen between now and election day, and maybe to go back to the hope and optimism point, what your hope is.

Diana Smith: Yeah. Well, my hope is that no matter what the outcome of this election is, that the millions of people already at work across the country, working to bridge the divides that created this dysfunction we are experiencing…

That people will join their ranks, and make sure that this democracy that our founders sacrificed their lives to create, did not… and people in the Civil War died to save, that they did not die in vain.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Whoo.

Diana Smith: People join that movement. We’re going to need to do it, regardless of how the election turns out. I think the bigger election, so to speak, is, are we going to vote on ourselves as citizens, and believe in ourselves and do what we need to do to save our democracy and to save our planet and to make this multigroup democracy of ours functional?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, yeah. So it’s about taking our lens and pulling back, like, what is our ultimate objective here? It’s not just, “I voted for the party” or the “candidate that won” or “that lost.” It’s much bigger picture than that. And really focusing on that. Okay.

Diana Smith: It’s about our ability as a multigroup democracy to solve urgent problems as quickly as we can before they trump us. That’s going to require us to work across groups. We have failed at doing that the last… not completely, but we’ve not done well the last 50 years. We’ve done worse and worse. We have to turn that trajectory around. Our elected officials are not going to do it until we, the people, do it because they’re going to cater and pander to the extreme.

So we in the 67% have got to stop ceding ground to the extremists, take back our power and our control, join these groups across the country that are working to do that, and turn around what has been a bad trajectory and turn it into a good one.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay. So I am gonna sneak another question in before I get to the four rapid-fire questions, because, you know, before I pressed record again, you and I… I said I want to ask the questions that I know the listeners want to hear. I know what I would want to hear is: what exactly do I say in, you know, it’s the end of November, and I’m in a meeting at work, and I’m in the 66-67%. Someone who’s got an extreme view says something in the moment. Right? So, I mean, the meta-level or the strategic level of advice that you’re giving is to join these movements, to practice media hygiene, to do all of these kind of proactive things. What about when you’re in the moment?

Diana Smith: Yeah. Well, we talked a little bit about it earlier, but let me get into it. I came across an article in Dear Eric, which is in the Washington Post in the Life section.

Someone wrote to him and said, “I’m in this group of guys that get together on Zoom, and we’ve been together for many years, and sometimes this one guy says things that make me uncomfortable. I sort of don’t say anything and let it pass, but recently, he said he really has a problem with all the brown people coming to the country.”

And this fellow thought that was a very— as I would, too— a very problematic statement. And just to be clear, I find it problematic because I think people don’t understand the positive role that immigrants play in coming to our country. But anyway, Eric’s response, I thought, was really good. He said, rather than call him out, call him in.

Calling someone in is an invitation to discussion and repair. It’s a way of saying, “It concerns me that you hold this opinion. Would you be open to talking it through?”

Now, I would ask a different question than that, but I certainly think that’s perfectly reasonable. I would tend to say, “I’m surprised to hear you say that. What are you worried about?”

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? Okay.

Diana Smith: I want to understand. What is it behind that statement? And then I can imagine saying things like, “Well, you know, I’ve had a different experience. And some of the research I’ve done, because I know immigration is a big issue, I’ve done some inquiry into it. And I’ve discovered that immigration has been actually vital to turning around dying towns, that they’ve added money to coffers, that they play a vital role in industries across the United States.”

So what is it that you’re seeing or hearing that leads you to worry? And then just start a conversation, not a fight. We need to build relationships, not cases.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So we’re building relationships, not cases. That said, we can focus on the issue as opposed to pointing fingers at a person and being accusational, right? So there’s a…

Diana Smith: Good morning!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Diana Smith: Yeah, but…

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I never thought of that before, because I know some of the most common advice that communication coaches give, you know, on this topic of communicating with difficult people— I’m saying “difficult people” in air quotes— is to focus on the issue, not on the person.

Diana Smith: Yeah, yes, exactly. And if you focus on the issue, understanding that people can disagree, but they don’t need to be disagreeable.

And through talking about the issues, if you’re genuinely interested in learning what’s going on, not just condemning the person, then through that, you build a relationship of greater trust and openness.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Diana Smith: And it’s possible. I mean, in the book, I talk about the transformation of a white nationalist whose experience in college led him to disavow white nationalism. And he did that because of the conversations he had with friends.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, do you wanna share a little bit more about that?

Diana Smith: This is an extraordinary story, and it’s… I’m sorry, yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: It is.

Diana Smith: It’s one that falsifies the idea that, you know, someone is so far gone that there’s nothing you can do. Okay? So first of all, the story—which I write about in the book—is called Befriending Your Ideological Enemy. It’s based on a book by Eli Saslow called Rising Out of Hatred, and I couldn’t recommend it highly enough. It tells the story about a young guy named Derek Black, 18 years old, and he was the heir apparent to the white nationalist movement in the U.S. He was the son of Don Black, who founded Stormfront, one of the first hate sites on the internet, and godson to the ultra-right-wing politician, David Duke, who’s a neo-Nazi and a conspiracy theorist and a former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan.

So this guy came from a very small, insular white nationalist group. After being homeschooled, he goes off to New College in Florida, and New College is a liberal arts college that has a far-left-leaning student body.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So…

Diana Smith: And there, he meets and makes friends with people far outside of the circle that he’d ever encountered. Okay, so you can imagine the cognitive dissonance this guy’s going through. He’s there for about a year, and nobody knows he’s a white nationalist. He meets people, he makes friends, acquaintances, and so on, but after a year, somebody finds out and outs him.

And the message board at the college just goes wild. They start saying things like, “You know, Derek’s an idiot, a hatemonger, a Hitler, a fraud. You simply cannot reason with someone like that.” And they said he ought to be expelled or ostracized.

There was a very small, diverse group of students that made a different choice.

And it was one of Derek’s acquaintances, an Orthodox Jew by the name of Matthew Stevenson, who decided to invite Derek to his weekly Shabbat dinners. A bunch of people dropped out because they didn’t want to be there, but a small group came, and beforehand, Matthew turned to them and said, “Just don’t be assholes. We want him to come back.”

And his view was: “This guy has been raised by white nationalists. We’re not going to change his view in one night. Let’s not talk about white nationalism. Let’s just get to know each other.”

Also at the table was a Peruvian immigrant by the name of Juan, another Orthodox Jew, Mosh Ashe, whose grandfather had been in a concentration camp in Germany, and then Alison Gornick, who was a leftist feminist. Okay? And over the next 18 months, this small group of friends created a context in which Derek’s very narrow mental space, which had been cultivated in this white nationalist community, started to expand.

And he started to reach across this chasmic distance between a white nationalist group and these ultra-liberal students. Okay, imagine how hard that must have been for the guy. And so, after 18 months, he eventually came around. He reexamined his beliefs, mostly with Alison. They’d get on the internet, they’d look up studies to examine the intelligence of different races, to look at the consequences of immigration— they did the whole thing. And so, afterward, he reflected on the process, and he told a reporter:

“It was people who disagreed with me who were critical to the process, especially those who were my friends regardless, but who let me know, when we talked about it, that they thought my beliefs were wrong, and took the time to provide evidence and civil arguments. I didn’t always agree with their ideas, but I listened to them, and they listened to me.”

It’s amazing to think of the distance this young kid traveled in two years. Okay?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: It is.

Diana Smith: So it shows it is possible.

And that’s the point I wanted to make.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So it’s impressive that he went from what many of us would say, like a kid that didn’t have a chance, I mean, given his upbringing, right? Didn’t have a chance.

Yeah, he somehow had an open mind.

But also the other people who didn’t just reject him. That’s also very impressive.

Okay, are you ready for the 3 rapid fire questions.

Diana Smith: And.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Question number one: are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Diana Smith: I’m an introvert trapped in an extrovert’s body.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh!

Diana Smith: Meaning, I push myself to be an extrovert, as I am today. Okay.

But I recover alone.

And the definition of an introvert is usually, where do you recharge? And I recharge alone. Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Diana, do you know that almost a hundred percent of the people that I interview have an answer, something like what you just said.

Diana Smith: Yeah, I can believe it. Because if you’re a leader, you have no choice but to be an extrovert. And it’s exhausting because you’re basically alone.

You’re taking on the weight of the organization on your own. I’ve been executives for 40 years. It’s a tough, tough job.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Okay. Question number two.

This, I’m very curious to hear from you. What are your communication pet peeves?

Diana Smith: Well, I’m, you know. I always hate to call them pet peeves, because I’m empathetic with why people do these things, but they can be irritating, and they’re problematic, and they’re not in the interest of the person who uses them. But the incessant use of qualifiers, especially the worst one would be: Let me be honest.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, so.

Diana Smith: Because, like, okay, cause all the other times I haven’t been honest. So watch out.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I say that way more, but I catch myself saying it. Recently, I’ve been—when I’m in the middle of a coaching session or workshop, I’ll say, Well, to be honest, and then I go: Stop.

o be clear, I am always honest. What I meant was actually… or I want to emphasize this point exactly.

Diana Smith: I think a lot of qualifiers are what an old mentor of mine, Roger Brown, at Harvard called politeness strategies. Okay, we want to mitigate any tension. And so we say, you know, I know this is a sensitive topic. So I want to make sure, you know… And so you’re packing these sentences up with all this superfluous stuff, it’s inefficient.

And it—the point gets lost in all the padding, and I think it sends a signal that you’re uncomfortable, that makes other people uncomfortable. It reduces honesty. It reduces learning.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You and I could do a whole podcast episode, conversation about that topic. I love it. Okay, last question.

Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending a lot lately?

Diana Smith: Can I give a podcast, a book, and a documentary?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Please.

Diana Smith: Okay. Podcast: The Focus Group, Sarah Longwell’s podcast on The Bulwark. It’s extraordinary. She gets together with voters, and she asks them what they think about all sorts of things. So you get to hear, unmediated by the press, what people are really thinking, and we need more of that.

Excellent book: John Meacham’s And There Was Light: Abe Lincoln and the American Struggle. If you want to see a reality in the United States which is identical to today, read that book.

It’s incredible. Documentary: I Am Not Your Negro, which is basically a documentary on James Baldwin.

And it’s an extraordinary documentary, and especially for people who are white. It will be an eye-opener, and it’s an important one for people to understand.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay, I will put links to the three of those in the show notes.

I’m good.

Ask if there’s anything else you want to share with the listeners about Remaking the Space Between Us.

Diana Smith: I think it’s the single biggest challenge we face. We have become very insular within our own groups.

Recycling the same news, the same beliefs, the same values. And we’ve gotten very distant from groups that are demographically and ideologically different.

And so we need to start to…

Close those divides. Open up. We have to open up the space within our own group before we can close the distance. So we have to start opening the space within our own group. And then we need to close the distance across groups.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Diana, for sharing your insights, your suggestions, and your hope for how we can remake the space between us. I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you.

Diana Smith: Thank you, Andrea. This has been a lot of fun.

Thank you so much, Diana!

Diana’s knowledge of history, combined with her storytelling, and of course, her strategic acumen provide such a compelling case for us to focus on remaking the space between us.

Diana shared many many recommendations of resources that we can explore to help make this a reality. I combed through the transcript and included links to all of these resources. You can find the list at the top of the show notes in whatever podcast app you’re using.

Now, let me summarize. As I mentioned at the beginning, I’m going to briefly review Diana’s insights focusing on three categories that I found in a paper she co-authored with Harvard Professor Amy Edmondson. The paper is called “Too Hot to Handle: How to Manage Relationship Conflict”. In this paper, Diana and Amy outline three practises for discuss discussing hot topics: one is managing yourself. Two is managing the conversation. And three is managing the relationship. 

Let’s start with managing yourself.

An easy place to start here is to explore the resources that Diana mentioned. If you’ve taken the time to fill your brain with neutral information or perhaps information from across the spectrum, you’re better equipped in so many ways.

Remember that diversity of thought and opinion can be a competitive adntage – for yourself and for your team. Did you catch Diana’s comment about bathwater? 

“if you’re drinking your own bath water, you’re not going to get very far.”

That’s pretty visceral.  Hopefully this idea of diversity of thought inspires you to check out a different website or news source from the one you’ve been reading.  Maybe starting with a few that Diana suggests.

So that’s tactical. In terms of a mindset, Diana mentioned many times that are focus on learning and curiosity can help. This is what I focussed on in that heated conversation that I had in the airport the day after the election. I remember thinking Diana would encourage me to be curious. So I started asking questions. It works beautifully. Thank you, Diana.

That’s managing yourself.

The second category of insights is about 

Managing the conversation. 

Diana aptly said “start a conversation, not a fight. We need to build relationships, not cases.” Let’s start with conversations, then we’ll get into relationships.

Imagine you’re in a meeting. It could be one on one where you need to have a conversation with someone about something to build your business or it could be with a large group. Someone might say something inappropriate or perhaps something that you believe is not true. They may be expressing their social and political views.

Assuming they’re not Kai bashing the whole meeting, Diana suggests that you address it privately, after the meeting ends.

Diana shares a few prompts to get us started the first one is:

“ it concerns me that you hold this opinion. Would you be open to talking it through?”

The second is: “I’m surprised to hear you say that. What are you worried about?”

With both of these prompts, she starts with a non-threatening she starts by stating her opinion, but in a non-threatening way. In the first, she said it concerns me that you hold this opinion and then the second she said I’m surprised you hear to hear you say that. Then she followed that statement up with a question, would you be open to talking it through? Or what are you worried about?

This is a great framework for all of us. Start by sharing our concern in a non-threatening way then ask a question.

In practice, these prompts are a great idea,. However, in practice, sometimes things get very heated. We get triggered. Diana reminds us to use our self control. To pause. To overcome our hot system, which is reactive and emotional and shift to a cool system, which is more rational. Then we can follow up after pausing with one of these prompts.

So that’s managing the conversation.  We’ve covered managing yourself and managing the conversation.  Now , the third and last category is . 

Three is managing the relationship

I think that’s a great place to close. the most caring thing you can do for somebody is to get curious.

The next time you’re in a heated conversation with someone, whether it’s a coworker, a family member, a friend or a complete stranger in an airport. I hope you remember these words. The most caring thing you can do is to get curious. Thanks again to Diana.

As I said, you can find links to all of Diana’s recommendations and more in the show notes for this episode.

My coordinates are there too. Please connect with me anytime. Check out the Talkabouttalk.com website or send me a DM on LinkedIn.

Talk soon!

The post Talk EXTREMES – Remaking the Space Between Us with Dr. Diana McLain Smith (ep.176) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Harvard Professor Amy Edmondson talks with Andrea about the significance of accountability in a psychologically safe workplace. Learn about the important difference between disappointment vs regret and between mistakes vs failures. Amy shares insights from her new book, “The Right Kind of Wrong,” including the three types of failure, and the one we should be striving for!

TRANSCRIPT

Yes, we all have work to do. In the next 45 minutes, you’re going to learn directly from Harvard Business School professor Amy Edmondson, a pioneer in psychological safety and failing well.

Wait – isn’t that an oxymoron? “Failing Well”?

I cant wait for you to hear my conversation with Amy

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #175

My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m an executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. Through my work at Talk about Talk, I coach ambitious executives to elevate their communication skills so they can communicate with confidence and credibility. To learn more about what I do, head over to talkabouttalk.com where you can read about the coaching and the workshops that I run. Plus there are lots of free resources for you, including the brand new archetypes quiz, where you can learn which archetype resonates with you and your professional identity. You can also free coaching from me by signing up for my free email newsletter.

OK,Let’s get into this.

Recently, Amy published a new book called “Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing well”. After reading the book, I emailed Amy and asked her if I could interview her for this podcast. I was thrilled that she immediately agreed. To say Amy’s work is impactful and prolific would be an understatement. So my goal with this interview is to ask Amy the Qs that I know YOU would ask – Qs focused on communication skills, and possibly Qs that differ from the Qs she typically gets in many of the other interviews she’s done. Here, we focus on our communication and our mindset as leaders and as communicators.

We have a LOT to talk about here!

Let me introduce Amy, then we’ll get right into the interview.

Amy C. Edmondson is the Novartis Professor of Leadership and Management at the Harvard Business School, a chair established to support the study of human interactions that lead to the creation of successful enterprises that contribute to the betterment of society. Amy is so perfect for this chair, I have to say.

Amy studies teaming, psychological safety, and organizational learning, and she’s authored 7 books and over 75 cases and articles. She’s been recognized by the biannual Thinkers50 global ranking of management thinkers since 2011, and most recently was ranked #1 in 2021 and 2023; She also received that organization’s Breakthrough Idea Award in 2019, and Talent Award in 2017.

In 2019, Amy’s published her seminal book, “The Fearless Organization: Creating Psychological Safety in the Workplace for Learning, Innovation and Growth.” Her more recent book “Right Kind of Wrong – The Science of Failing Well,” is due to be translated into 24 additional languages, and was selected for the Financial Times and Schroders Best Business Book of the Year award.

Here we go!

INTERVIEW

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Thank you so much, Amy, for being here today to talk to us about psychological safety and the concept of failing well.

Amy Edmondson: Thrilled to be here.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I’ve already shared the definition of psychological safety, but I have a question. When I’m discussing this with my clients, especially when it comes up in coaching sessions, I often describe it as a culture where it’s safe to take risks. Is that a solid, short definition?

Amy Edmondson: It absolutely is.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Perfect!

Amy Edmondson: This topic has come up frequently in my work and research within organizations, largely due to the growing popularity of the concept. However, this also leads to many misunderstandings and misconceptions. There are two key points that people often raise that can be frustrating, both for them and for me. One is…

Amy Edmondson: People often say, “We love this psychological safety concept, but we have to care about performance.” The reality is that without a climate where risk-taking feels safe, it’s challenging to perform well.

In our world of uncertainty and interdependence, there’s another concerning trend: people are starting to misuse the concept as a weapon. They might say, “You can’t give me feedback, or you’ll undermine my psychological safety.” That’s completely incorrect.

Psychological safety actually encourages an environment where we provide feedback to one another. We should aim to give it respectfully and accurately, even though it won’t always be perfect. We need to accept that we might get it wrong sometimes, but we’re doing our best and will work through it together.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love how your two seminal books are not mutually exclusive; there’s so much overlap. You mentioned getting it wrong, which leads me to a question I was planning to ask later. Recently, I conducted workshops for physicians in Australia, despite the 14-hour time difference! I shared that I would be interviewing you, and they had some questions for you.

One physician mentioned that, in Australia—especially in medicine—while it’s not illegal to not create a culture of psychological safety, it’s increasingly coming up in courts of law. I see you nodding; this isn’t news to you.

Amy Edmondson: Yes, I’ve heard similar concerns. While the intentions are good, this situation can be deeply problematic.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: yeah. So is it against the law to not create a culture of psychological safety? Or is it that it comes up.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: One of the physicians mentioned that it seems to come up when people are accused of bullying.

Amy Edmondson: Yes, and that’s a complex issue. Bullying can sometimes be perceived very differently—what one person sees as bullying, another might view as directive management. Before labeling behaviors as bullying or linking the lack of psychological safety to legal issues, we need to be clear about what constitutes illegal behavior, rather than focusing solely on subjective outcomes.

It’s tricky because someone might say, “I don’t like you; therefore, you’re a bully,” leading to reports that might not reflect the true situation.

What worries me about these well-intentioned efforts to eliminate bad behaviors is that making it a legal matter can create a serious atmosphere. If the consequence of speaking up is something as severe as going to jail, people may feel compelled to hide issues rather than learn from them.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Unfortunately, and ironically, this could lead to negative outcomes. Yet, there’s a wealth of research—much of which you’ve contributed to—that shows psychological safety is critical for team performance.

Amy Edmondson: Absolutely. My own empirical research is just a small part of the broader literature. I developed a measure of psychological safety long ago, and many researchers have since built upon that work. If we include the healthcare literature, there are over a thousand peer-reviewed studies demonstrating that psychological safety is linked to higher-performing teams.

This connection exists because most teams require a level of risk-taking for success—not reckless risks, but behaviors like asking for help, admitting mistakes, or expressing dissenting views. Those actions are essential for performance but can be difficult for many people to engage in.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Returning to our earlier discussion about the challenges you’ve mentioned regarding the true spirit of psychological safety, it often comes up that we have business objectives to meet. I often use a 2×2 matrix that shows psychological safety on one axis and accountability on the other. I see you nodding your head.

Amy Edmondson: I remember I drew that. I I conceptualize that in like in the middle of a class one day 20 years ago because because I I realized that so many people have this kind of false dichotomy that either you know, care about or uphold high standards of performance and accountability, or we can have, you know.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Amy Edmondson: Psychological safety and accountability are two different dimensions. Once you plot them, you realize there are four quadrants. There’s a zone where both are low, which I call the “apathy zone.” In this state, there’s no accountability and no psychological safety, leading to a lack of motivation.

Then there’s the “comfort zone,” where psychological safety is high but accountability is low. It might feel good for a short time, but it doesn’t foster growth or high performance.

The quadrant I see more often is the “anxiety zone.” Here, accountability is high, and there’s pressure to perform, but psychological safety is lacking. People want to do well, but they don’t feel safe enough to engage in the behaviors that would actually help them succeed.

This zone can lead to burnout, as it’s exhausting to operate under those conditions.

The ideal environment is the “learning zone,” or the “high-performance zone.” In this space, there’s a sense of ownership and commitment to high standards, paired with the freedom to speak up, ask for help, and share differing opinions. In an uncertain world, that’s the only culture that truly thrives.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Absolutely, and this applies beyond work. Think about family dynamics—when teenagers communicate with their parents, for instance.

Amy Edmondson: Exactly. I discuss this in my book Right Kind of Wrong, emphasizing that in family situations, you don’t want kids to be afraid to tell the truth. If they are, it can lead to dangerous situations—like not calling for help because they fear a negative reaction.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yes, the communication skills we talk about in coaching can be valuable in personal life as well.

Before we continue, I want to share a question from Dr. Janette Wright, an anesthetist in Australia. She’s familiar with psychological safety and her colleagues are as well. Here’s her question:

In an operating theater during a critical incident, psychological safety can diminish due to harsh words or urgent tasks that are ordered rather than requested. Even in a team with a great culture under normal conditions, what’s the best way to maintain or renew psychological safety during these circumstances?

Amy Edmondson: This is such an important question. These situations can occur not just in operating rooms but in families and relationships as well. If we expect perfection in our responses, that’s unrealistic.

Fortunately, there’s a path to recovery. The first step is to acknowledge what happened. If something was said or done that might have harmed psychological safety, it’s crucial to name it. Apologizing is also important; it shows that you recognize the impact of your actions and are committed to doing better next time.

The key is that these moments must be discussable. We will all make mistakes, but when we do, we shouldn’t feel ashamed or embarrassed. Instead, we should create an environment where these issues can be openly addressed.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You know.

Amy Edmondson: Logical safety, or we find some optimal place in the middle. It’s like, No, no, no, it’s two different dimensions. And so.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, they’re orthogonal.

Amy Edmondson: They’re orthogonal and once drawn, then you realize, oh, there really are four quadrants here. There really is a zone where both are low, and you know that’s a pretty sad state of affairs. Nobody wants to work there. I call it the apathy zone.

Amy Edmondson: You know, no accountability, no psychological safety, and it’s you know you try to take care of yourself. But you’re not terribly motivated.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Amy Edmondson: And then, of course, the one that people are worrying about is the comfort zone, where it’s like high psychological safety, but no accountability, no commitment to high standards, and you know I always think that might be fun for a day or a week or so. But that’s not really what it means to be a thriving, you know, adult human being or child, for that matter, you know. So the one, of course, that I see far more often, and I want to come back to this in a moment is the anxiety zone where.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah.

Amy Edmondson: You know, the accountability is apparently high around here. The need to perform well is high around here, but psychological safety feels low.

Amy Edmondson: And so that’s you know. That’s the anxiety zone. That’s where I’d like to do a good job. But I really don’t feel safe engaging in the behaviors I need to do a good job.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right.

Amy Edmondson: And and then.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: That’s like the burnout zone, too.

Amy Edmondson: That’s a burnout zone. Absolutely. It’s exhausting.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. And then the.

Amy Edmondson: You know, the place we all want our teams to be is the learning zone, or the which I also think is the high performance zone. And that’s where we feel a sense of accountability or ownership and a commitment to high standards, and we feel able to speak up to get help to, you know, offer a different point of view, and so forth. And in an uncertain world that’s like that’s the only kind of climate or or culture that’s going to work.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, I’m even thinking about, even in families, right? When children like teenagers are talking to their parents, or what? Like, yeah, it’s even beyond work.

Amy Edmondson: Oh, yes, in fact, I didn’t think you know I write about that in Right Kind of Wrong, because it’s the last thing you want is in a family situation is to have kids be afraid to tell you the truth, because then they might first of all, you don’t know what’s going on, and that’s dangerous. Second of all, they might literally, you know, get into the car of a drunk friend rather than call you, because they’re afraid you’re going to yell at them.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? Right? So we can extrapolate. I find that with most of the things that I coach, it’s communication skills. It’s that people are like. Oh, this would work in my personal life, too. I said, yes, it will.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So before we go any further, I want to read this question from this this woman, Dr. Janette Wright. She is an anesthetist in Australia, and this is her question. She’s very familiar with psychological safety, and most of her colleagues are as well. So here’s her question.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: In an operating theater environment. During a critical incident there can be a loss of psychological safety, for example.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Harsh words or time-critical tasks that are ordered rather than requested.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Even in a team who, under normal conditions, have a great culture of speaking up and collegiality. What is the best way to maintain or renew psychological safety during these circumstances I read that word for word from what she sent me.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So you can imagine her in this high stakes, or right.

Amy Edmondson: It’s such an important question. And you know, I think it happens in the OR but it also, we were just talking about families, and it happens in families, it happens in couples and relationships. Right? We will. We if we, if you and I had a theory that depended, or a practice that depended on being perfect and delivering the perfect response every time. That would be a lousy theory. Because no, we’re fallible human beings. So this situation will happen. Fortunately, I believe it is. There is a path to recovery, the sooner the better. But the most important steps on this path are, first name it acknowledge it.

Amy Edmondson: Oops, you know. That was not how I really wanted that to come out. Now you may not be enough presence to do that immediately, but do it as soon as you realize that something happened that is potentially harmful for the future, and then apologize and apology just means my in. I was scared, and you know my my I reacted too quickly, and I’ll I don’t think that had a positive effect, and I’ll do better next time, and then and then keep working at doing better next time.

Amy Edmondson: So the most important thing is that it’s discussable. We’re all going to fall off the balance beam, but when we fall off we shouldn’t be ashamed, embarrassed. We shouldn’t make it undiscussable, which it often is. It’s like, did you see that, you know? Behind closed doors.

Amy Edmondson: Remember. Oh, that was awful! Well, I’ll never feel safe again. There! It’s like, just get out, you know. Get get on top of it as quickly as possible, and speak truthfully about it. And the very act of doing that is demonstrating the kind of candor that, after all, is what we’re looking for.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right? Right? So when I’m coaching my clients and they’re looking for almost like a prescription. So I understand what it is. I’ve seen the seven question survey. I understand the definitions the mistakes people make, and so on, and so on.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: What do I do? And so I say, think about your mindset. Think about your words and think about your actions, and you’re talk. You’re actually talking about and taking an action and and the words combination. Right? So you’re.

Amy Edmondson: Yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay later on to admit fallibility. That’s one thing and the other one that I that I often mention that I’ve heard you say many times is when someone comes to you with an issue, or even a mistake, that they made you say thank you for telling me. Tell me more.

Amy Edmondson: Yeah, thank you for telling me.

Amy Edmondson: Maybe even depending on the situation. How can I help what ideas do you have? You know. So it’s all it’s it’s at least first and foremost about the what next I mean. Our instincts as humans, I think, is to look back like, well, how did that happen? Yeah. And you know, why were you so stupid? But no, we don’t say that. We, you know it’s it’s because you can’t do anything about the past, but you sure can do something about the future, and that’s your God. That’s your that’s your job, that’s your goal. So I I would say, you know it is. It’s, you know. Thanks for telling me. How can I help, or what? Now? What ideas do you have.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So being future oriented is actually.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I think I probably implicitly was coaching people to do that. But but I’m not explicitly so. I I love that be future, not past oriented, right. There’ll be enough.

Amy Edmondson: And I’m a big fan of after action review. Right? I I believe we can learn a great deal, and we must learn from the past, especially from failures.

Amy Edmondson: But it’s just that. It’s that. What we’re talking about here is, how do you react in that moment? Because in a sense. If someone’s coming to you with a mistake or any kind of bad news. This is already a difficult moment for them. Job is simply to not make it worse. Right? It’s to make it better. Demonstrate that you welcome it, to demonstrate that this is what we do. This is what good looks like around here.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, and back to the example from the question from the physician in Australia. If later on you go back and apologize, you’re demonstrating that you know fallibility firsthand, and if, especially if you’re a leader, you have a huge impact on the culture. So you’re reinforcing it in real time and your course correcting right.

Amy Edmondson: Yes, yes, and if you I mean, if you’re expecting others to admit mistakes, and you’re expecting others to ask for help and admit their human fallibility. I promise you it won’t work if you’re unwilling to do the same.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So we keep saying the word mistake. And I wanna shift into failing. Well, and I wanna start by asking you what you think about this and it’s about vocabulary.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And I think maybe because I’ve I’ve evolved my career into becoming a communication coach. I’m more conscious of and hopefully careful with the language and vocabulary that I use.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And one thing that I talk about with my clients, and and especially if they’re in career transition, or they’re making plans for the future right, and talking about the difference between disappointment and regret. So I say, this is this is my take on this, which is, you make the best decision that you have with the information you have at the time. You may or may not be disappointed, but if you truly did make the best decision with the information you had then you really can’t have regrets.

Amy Edmondson: I love that. Yeah, I think that’s great. First of all, I love the word disappointment. I use it a lot because it’s a. It’s part of a self training practice to to not say, Oh, this is awful! This is, you know, this is the end of the world when it isn’t and to say instead, This is disappointing, right? I’d really I’d wanted that to work right. I’d want to, whatever. And so disappointment is a very powerful world word, because it’s clean and clear and not exaggerated. Right? And and regret. Yeah, regret is quite interesting. I hadn’t thought about it that way because it really it does imply that you would love to rewind the videotape and do it differently. I mean, that’s not always appropriate. It’s appropriate for some things like that that operating room story again, you’d you’d love to if you were that surgeon you would love to rewind the videotape and not lose your cool. But you didn’t. So that’s okay. Do your best. You go forward. But but for the things that we do and try in life that we think might work or will work. But they don’t. You must not feel regret, because if you do, you will then hold yourself back, and you’ll do what I call playing, not to lose rather than you know going for it, rather than do your best. It’s sort of I’ll just take the safe, you know. I’ll I’ll try the same things.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So so both of your books and I. And I think maybe all of your research is really grounded in this kind of growth mindset. Right?

Amy Edmondson: Yes.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Really is.

Amy Edmondson: And I love the growth mindset work.

Amy Edmondson: You know, Carol Dwecks, and you know others, her students, and others as well, because it’s I think it’s so.

Amy Edmondson: It’s so consistent with what is needed in a world that keeps changing. And for people who want to keep achieving or doing better, you know.

Amy Edmondson: Learning and growing and improving, and it’s so tempting. And I think the world is constantly sending us messages that we’re supposed to be perfect, or we’re supposed to get it right, or hit our targets or win awards. And it’s it’s so tempting to get caught up in those rather than in this idea, which is true, that we can keep learning and growing.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right learning. I say, learning, as opposed to performing.

Amy Edmondson: Yeah, yeah.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So can you share with us the three archetypes of failure? I I first of all, I also archetypes. So you’re speaking my language so categorizing and defining. I think this also really helps people think about leveraging their growth mindset. By the way, I’m sure you notice this, too, in what you do. There’s like a self selection. People who are listening to this podcast probably have a growth mindset. Otherwise they wouldn’t select themselves.

Amy Edmondson: Probably true. It’s probably true, although I bet there are people who are, you know, growth, mindset. Curious, right?

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I know.

Amy Edmondson: Because they know they know and want to learn and grow, but they also are like so many of us. Not immune to the pressures in their organizations, or the pressures in society that can re that can reinforce more of a performance mindset.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, I want to talk about that self awareness. But but first, can you share the definitions of.

Amy Edmondson: So. I’ll I’ll rewind for just a moment and say, Mistake, I’ll start with mistake. Then I’ll describe the three kinds of failure. So a mistake is an unintended deviation from a known practice or process.

Amy Edmondson: Right? And and and so I think that’s important, because a mistake is a kind of a particular category where it it’s a nonsensical word, unless there already is existing knowledge or process. Yeah, that gets the result. We want. Okay, mistake. And it’s got to be unintended, right? And an intended mistake is an oxymoron that doesn’t exist. It’s that’s just sabotage or carelessness, or whatever. Okay, so and forget careless. Let’s wipe that one out. So because that’s a different thing, anyway.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: You can.

Amy Edmondson: You can be careless and make a mistake. So, okay, so a but so so.

Amy Edmondson: I started with mistake because in ordinary talk people use the words mistake and failure interchangeably, and they’re not. A failure is an undesired outcome. There are three kinds. One is what I call a basic failure, which has a single cause, usually a mistake. It’s in familiar territory. If I text and drive and get into an accident, that’s a basic failure. I did something I shouldn’t have done, and I got a bad outcome.

A complex failure has a handful of factors contributing to it, any one of which wouldn’t create a failure on its own. But the unfortunate combination of factors gives rise to an undesired outcome. You know, supply chain breakdown, multi-causal—some workers are sick, weather patterns over there, and boom, it comes together.

Both of those kinds of failures are undesired and largely preventable. At our best, with incredible vigilance and communication skills, we can prevent most of those kinds of failures in familiar territory.

The third kind, intelligent failures, are the undesired outcomes of a thoughtful foray into new territory. These are the undesired results of experiments. You can’t have regrets about these because you could not have known in advance that it wouldn’t work. You had good reason to believe it could work. You’re a scientist in a lab running an experiment. You think, “This makes sense. Let’s get the data. Let’s see if it’s true.” Lo and behold, you’re wrong. Disappointing, to be sure—a failure, to be sure—but an intelligent one, and one that we need to learn to welcome and celebrate because they bring us new information.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: This categorization of the types of failures helps us reconcile the societal obsession with avoiding failure and performing at a high level, on the one hand, and what we keep hearing about failing fast and failing hard, on the other hand.

Amy Edmondson: There’s no bad idea in the operating room, right? Not something you’d want to do in passenger air travel. There are contexts in which we need to do everything in our power to ensure a successful outcome, particularly in high-stakes, high-risk situations. Part of the reason I articulate this typology and these archetypes is primarily to help us make the important distinctions we need to truly welcome the new knowledge that comes from intelligent failures. If failure is all lumped into our minds as one idea or one category, it’s not going to work psychologically to make us feel okay about failure. We can only feel okay about failure when we have cognitive distinctions around the types of failure, and then it frees us up to engage in more smart risks.

I point out in the book that, in fact, name a field—the people who are most successful are not successful because they’re failure-free. They’ve become most successful because they’ve failed more often than the rest of us. They’ve been willing to try hard things and stomach the disappointment of failure, getting better and better at their craft.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: When I hear you describing these archetypes, it occurred to me that there are kinds of wrong that we want to avoid and kinds of wrong that we are totally okay with.

Amy Edmondson: Exactly. They’re all wrong in a sense, in that they are all undesired outcomes. But only one type of undesired outcome is the right kind, or at least the productive kind.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: In part two of the book, you talk about self-awareness, situation awareness, and system awareness. I just gobbled up chapter five because I’m all about self-awareness—internal and external. I was going back and forth between feeling optimistic about the message and then feeling pessimistic.

Amy Edmondson: That’s exactly the experience I have. I toggle back and forth between feeling very hopeful about what we know and what we’re capable of doing, and also feeling very depressed about it because we do, we? I will repeatedly and consistently fall into the same traps. Even Danny Kahneman, of course, who wrote “Thinking, Fast and Slow,” falls into the same traps.

I think part of the solution is recognizing that it’s okay to have system one fast thinking. If you stop to pause—like which way should I brush my teeth every time you do it? You’d never get through the day. Many of our instincts are necessary for survival. You stop yourself from running out into traffic without even thinking about it, and that’s good. So we need all of these skilled routines to get through our days. We need to get continually better, and none of us will ever be perfect. But we need to get continually better at learning when to pause and slow down our thinking.

To me, the hopefulness comes in once we become aware that self-awareness is a thing and that thinking about your thinking is not a bad idea. For things where there’s uncertainty and reasonably high stakes, we really do want to challenge ourselves. I borrow from some of the great thinkers and those who spend time thinking about how to have healthy thinking.

I try to borrow some of the simple wisdom and say: how should we do that in business or in organizations? The simplest rubric I borrow from a former mentor, Larry Wilson, is stop, challenge, choose. Just pause. Learn to breathe, learn to say, “Okay, I’m feeling a little anxious. What’s going on?” Pause and take a look at your thinking.

Ask yourself, “How tethered to reality is this, or am I spiraling out?” What other ways might there be to think about this situation? Now pick the one that is in my best interests and health, and maybe happiness. If I can realize that, “Oh, that’s disappointing, but not fatal, and I’m going to try harder next time,” then that’s a healthy habit.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So you’re shifting me a little bit over into the optimistic.

Amy Edmondson: Right with it.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: As you were talking, I was thinking it still relates to a growth mindset.

Amy Edmondson: Oh yes!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: After coaching executives for a couple of years, I had an epiphany. At the end of the calendar year, I looked back and realized what really differentiates the most successful people is a growth mindset. A few years later, I recognized self-awareness as another key factor. These aren’t necessarily orthogonal; I think they’re correlated in some ways.

Amy Edmondson: Yeah. yes, I mean, I think, yeah, in order to have a growth mindset. I think you you have to be a little bit more thoughtful about  what you’re doing, and why and why? The disappointment isn’t really so awful, because the spontaneous reaction to a failure or being wrong about something. And this is just well, you know. Well, well demonstrated in research, our spontaneous reactions are not are. It’s a negative emotion that’s just automatic. Right if I didn’t do as well as I thought. Whatever that’s I’m going to have a negative reaction. So the growth mindset is that superpower that comes back in and says, No, it’s it’s a learning experience, and not in a cliche way. But like, what what did I do that led to the outcome that I’m not happy about, and what might I do differently next time.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: I love that you use the word superpower. There, Amy. I love it. Okay, I’m I’m gonna ask you the 3 rapid fire questions. Now, are you ready.

Amy Edmondson: Okay. Yep.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: 1st question, are you an introvert or an extrovert?

Amy Edmondson: Introvert hands down!

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Hands down. Yeah. Have you taken.

Amy Edmondson: I have taken. I’ve taken the you know the the Briggs.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Briggs.

Amy Edmondson: Briggs. I was. Gonna say, Briggs, Myers, that’s wrong.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: And the Big 5. It’s also in the Big 5 of social psychology, right? Both of us.

Amy Edmondson: Yes, it’s 1 of the Big 5, and and I was. I was gratified to learn, though in as part of being trained as a psychologist like you that you know, that doesn’t mean you’re inept in social situations. It just means it takes more energy than. and that then I, as an introvert. It means I have to recharge, and I’m happy to recharge. I have lots of opportunities to recharge a lot of the work I do is solo at a keyboard.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Yeah. And and also, you may have a superpower of being a fantastic listener, which probably helps you in your research. Right?

Amy Edmondson: That is true, I mean, I’m not sure I got that as good as I want it to be. But I but it is true that as an introvert you are a good listener, and and prone to listen.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, okay, that wasn’t so rapid. But I love hearing your thoughts on that. second one. I I’m curious about this one. What are your communication.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: pet Peeves?

Amy Edmondson: The up lilt. So that is let me tell you about my work. And I was just finishing this chapter. and I know it’s it’s gotten to be so common now that it almost is disallowed as a pet peeve, because it’s practically everybody and I find it so so much less compelling than than stating it as a sentence rather than asking, or, you know, implying it’s a question plus. I think it really requires. It takes it drains the listener because the listener is is sort of feeling, because it’s implied by the tone that they have to say something, or respond, or agree or disagree, and it’s it’s exhausting.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. So I’ve noticed, I labeled this Phenomenon, or the kind of increasing prevalence of it, the uptick and up speak.

Amy Edmondson: Okay.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, and it also.

Amy Edmondson: I like that.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: So Adam Grant had an article a couple of years ago in the New York Times, where he talks about women purposely using weak language. So with some of my senior female leaders, I assign them to read the article, and then I say, I want to talk to you about this, because, depending on who you’re talking to, it might be in your best interest to use up. Speak, but I hope you’re conscious of it. I hope that when you are, when you have conviction about something, you’re not asking them. Instead, you’re telling them

Amy Edmondson: Exactly, exactly.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Okay question number 3, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending the most lately?

Amy Edmondson: Yes, the book. Maybe it’s old fashioned to say a book, and it’s not a brand new book, but it is a brilliant book, and it is called, get rid of the Performance review.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Oh!

Amy Edmondson: Sam Culbert, Ucla emeritus. And it is not a book about why we shouldn’t have performance reviews. It’s it’s really a book about how the way most of them unfold is not learning oriented, not helpful, not forward looking. and does. And it’s a sham. Or it’s theater that isn’t working. So it needs to be replaced by what he calls the performance preview where we. Together and my job. If I’m your manager, my job is to help you think about growth mindset again. My job is to is to help you do well. so I need to know what you need from me. You need to know what I expect or what we’re trying to do, and I need to know how to most enable you. And so it’s a mute. There’s mutual learning, and it’s forward looking and it’s so. you know, it’s so profound and so rare, but but really a powerful way of of managing performance.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah, sound like, it sounds like this book made a real

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: real impression on you. That’s very. I can see how it’s very kind of interrelated with with your topics of failure, the right kind of wrong and psychological safety. I will put a link to that book in the show notes, and I just want to close by asking, is there anything else you want to share about the right kind of wrong failure, psychological safety, anything else.

Amy Edmondson: One thing, so I’ll go full circle back to psychological safety, which, as you said, it’s all interrelated. and say.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Right. Okay, that is beautiful. Thank you so much, Amy. I really appreciate your insights and your time. And it was wonderful to chat with you again after so many years. Thank you.

Amy Edmondson: Likewise. Thank you.

Andrea Wojnicki – TalkAboutTalk: Yeah. Oh, Amy, thank you so much.  I just want to say also congratulations on having such a significant impact and influencing institutions and individuals at such a massive scale to be better people.

Amy Edmondson: Thank you. That makes my day.

The feeling is mutual, Amy!

OK – let me now highlight and reinforce

The 3 points are:

Focus on PERFORMANCE

Which brings me to the second point I want to reinforce:

FOCUSing ON OUR VOCABULARY

Amy started by distinguishing between mistakes and failures.

A mistake is an unintended deviation from a known practice or process.

A failure is an undesired outcome. There are 3 kinds of failures: basic, complex, and intelligent. I bet you can guess which one of those three is good!

A complex failure has a handful of factors contributing to it.

Intelligent failure is the undesired results of experiments. Think of a scientific experiment:

SO we encourage you to be careful of your vocabulary. Knowing that as humans we all fail at times and we all make mistakes. And we all experience disappointment and even regret. But if we consciously focus on taking smart risks, we can label our failures as intelligent failure and move on to learning.

Which brings me to the last point I want to reinforce – the Focus on LEARNING & THE FUTURE

Ultimately when you focus on learning and the future, you are cultivating a growth mindset.

This notion of cultivating a growth mindset, of focusing on the future and learning, is a key theme running through Amy’s work in psychological safety and in failing well.

That reminds me, I loved how when I mentioned that I think most of the Talk About Talk podcast listeners have a strog growth mindset – there’s self-selection there – Amy added that there are probably many who are growth-minded curious. Probably true. If that might be you, know this. Inasmuch as the research on team performance consistently shows that psychological safety contributes to team performance, the research by Carol Dweck and other consistently shows that whenou culativate a growth mindset – when you focus on learning and the future, this also can also improve your chance of success.

Thanks again to Amy.

Your work really is contributing to a more productive – high performing society. And a more enjoyable one too. .

As I said, you can find links to aAMy’s books aswell as the other books and articles we mentioned in our conversation, right in the shownotes for this episode.

My coordinates are there too. Please connect with me anytime. Check out the Talkabouttalk.com website or send me a DM on LinkedIn. I love hearing from you.

Talk soon!

The post PSYCHOLOGICAL SAFETY & FAILING WELL with Harvard Business School Professor Amy Edmondson (ep.175) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

How to boost your self-awareness with Dr. Tasha Eurich.  Tasha and Andrea talk about how self-awareness can improve your communication, relationships, confidence, promotability, influence, empathy, leadership, and more.

TRANSCRIPT

Are YOU a self-awareness unicorn? That RARE person with exceptionally high internal and external self awareness? Probably not. But according to self-awareness expert Dr.Tasha Eurich, just by learning some of the tools and approaches you’ll hear in the next 45 minutes, you’re way ahead of the pack. One step closer to unicorn status.

Let’s do this!

Welcome to Talk about Talk podcast episode #174 “Boost your Self-awareness with Dr.Tasha Eurich.”

I’m so excited for you to meet Tasha. I read her book called INSIGHT a few years ago after it was recommended by Adam Grant. The full title is Insight: The Surprising Truth About How Others See Us, How We See Ourselves, and Why the Answers Matter More Than We Think. It immediately became one of my favorites, a book with research that I reference all the time, and a book that I often recommend to my coaching clients.

So I was very excited to book this interview. When the time finally came and we logged into the interview, we both stopped and stared at the screen. I’m sure my jaw dropped. Tasha was sitting in front of her beautiful horizontal bookcase, all sorted by color. Like a beautiful rainbow of books, including the turquoise book jacket cover of her book INSIGHT. Some of you might know that I am also obsessed with color, particularly turquoise. So there I was, in front of my vertical bookshelf, each shelf coded by colour – black then red then turquoise, then yellow, and so on.

WOW. Even if you’re not obsessed with colour, our screens were a sight to be seen. You could say we had an instant connection.

Speaking of connection – In case we haven’t met, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. I coach executives like you to improve your communication skills so you can communicate with confidence, establish credibility, and ultimately achieve your career goals. To learn more about what I do, head over to talkabouttalk.com and you can read about the coaching and workshops I run. Plus there are lots of free resources for you at the bottom of the talkabouttalk.com homepage. You can also sign up for my email newsletter, where you’ll get free coaching from me in your inbox. Head over to talkabouttalk.com to sign up now.

Alright, let’s shift gears.

In this episode, you’re going to learn a helpful definition of self-awareness, why it’s important, and Tasha’s strategies that you can start immediately to help you become more self-aware.

Let me introduce Tasha, then we’ll get right into the interview. At the end, as always, I’m going to summarize with three learnings that I want to reinforce for you. Sound good?

Dr. Tasha Eurich is an organizational psychologist, researcher, and New York Times best-selling author who helps people thrive in a changing world.

With a PhD in Organizational Psychology, she’s the principal of The Eurich Group, working with clients like Google, Walmart, and the NBA. She’s been recognized as the world’s top self-awareness coach and featured by Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, NBC, and more.

Her 2017 TEDx talk has been viewed more than 8 million times! Tasha’s first book, Bankable Leadership, debuted as a New York Times bestseller. Her latest, Insight, explores the link between self-awareness and success. That’s where we’re focusing here today. She also has another book coming out in 2025 focused on resilience called SHATTERPROOF. I’ll leave links to all these books in the show notes.

Here we go!

INTERVIEW

Thank you so much, Tasha, for being here today on Talk About Talk to talk about our self -awareness.

Thank you. It’s great to be here, Andrea. 

So I guess we better start with definitions. When you are writing and researching and talking about self -awareness, what exactly do you mean? 

So it’s a great place to start, I think, and you’re very smart to do that. It took our research team actually almost a year to scientifically and empirically.

So it’s the will and the skill to understand who we are and how you’re seen.

So I am familiar enough with your work that I know exactly what you mean by each of those very precise words.

But I want to say I applaud and appreciate how precise you’re being with that. So maybe break it down. What do you mean by will and what do you mean by skill, first of all. So both of those are equally important, right? If you’re missing one, you can’t become self -aware. The will has to do with not even necessarily a daily commitment because life, right? Life is crazy. Most days, if you are committed to seeing yourself clearly, that really kind of satisfies that piece of it. And then the skill is not just sort of using the myths and assumptions that we have about what it takes to become self -aware, but actually looking at scientifically supported actions that will improve our self -awareness. One of the things, you know, and I’m sure we’ll talk about this that we discovered in our research was that a lot of really well -intentioned people are sort of approaching self -awareness in a way that’s not giving them increased insight.

And so that’s where the skill component comes in. So it’s not just, you know, kind of throwing spaghetti at a wall and hoping something sticks. It’s saying this is my self -awareness strategy. This is how I’m going to break this down for myself.

When I was listening to and then reading your book, that’s where I felt like I personally got a lot of traction as well, providing me with the skill, the frameworks, right, for how to think about or how to get input to your identity and, well, and so that you can become more self -aware based on other people’s input and other frameworks that we’ll talk about.

So let’s go back to the definition, though. The second part was about, I’m going to paraphrase here, but it’s really about knowing yourself and also knowing how others perceive you.

Is that’s another way of saying it. It is. And I think a lot of times when we think about self -awareness, we only consider that inner piece, right? Knowing who we are internally.

What do we value? What are our passions? What are our personality patterns over time? Things like that. But we often neglect an equally important piece of the puzzle, which is to understand how other people see us. And what I always say to people is, you know, everybody has these shirts of like, what other people, other people’s opinion of me is none of my business, right? And I, while that’s very empowering, and I’m sure it sells a lot of T -shirts, unless you work in a cardboard box and live in a cardboard box and never speak to another person again, it kind of matters how other people see you.

And the angle that I’ve gotten to with, you know, I’ve been coaching CEOs for more than 20 years now is they’re already having these perceptions, right? They’re already talking to other people about these perceptions.

Wouldn’t you rather know? Because when you know, you can decide what you want to do about it, it doesn’t mean necessarily you have to change. But if we’re not actively soliciting other people’s perceptions of us, we are missing literally, you know, one of the two camera angles of that skill. What’s interesting in our research is that we found that very often, you know, highly self -aware people discover that those two data points don’t always match up, right? I might see myself one way. There might be a perception of me that’s very different. And I always go back there to the F.Scott Fitzgerald quote, which I really love. He says the definition of true intelligence is being able to hold two opposing ideas in your mind and still retain the ability to function, right?

And so to become self -aware and to be on this journey, it’s a dance, really, of soliciting both, navigating both, making sense of both, and sometimes believing and understanding that they won’t square up, but you still have to have both of those data points. Oh, my goodness, Tasha, there’s so, as you’re talking, I’m thinking, oh, I need to ask her this, I need to ask her this, I need to ask her this, I need to to ask, there’s so many directions we could go. Let me start with a quick anecdote that when I was reading your book the first time,

I was also, I happened to be coaching a gentleman who I now realize was not self -aware, but I asked him whether he thought he was self -aware. And he said, I think I’m extremely self -aware.

Of course. And when I was reading your book and thinking about it after, I thought, I know based on your research and others, there’s what you call, or we call internal self -awareness and external self -aware. And I thought instantly, he’s high internally self -aware, but not externally self -aware. And in your book, you talk about how most of us think we are more self -aware than the average, right? Including me, by the way. Fun discovery. Well, everybody is everybody, right yeah um so losers and the introspectors, if you had to put the population, you know, maybe of working professionals into this two by two matrix, the introspectors would get more than its fair share of folks. I’m not,

I’m not sure. 

It’s interesting because I actually have the data. I could look at that. We have our insight quiz. Maybe we can put a link in your show notes for your listeners. But we’ve been doing this insight quiz and making it available to people for free for like more than five years now.

So we could run those stats. I just don’t want to speak out of the wrong side of my mouth, right? It’s been a while. But the last time we did it, I want to say three or four years ago maybe, we were seeing very few people are high in both, right? That internal self -awareness, the first part of the definition, knowing who we are, and then the second part of it, understanding how other people see us, that’s hard to achieve, right? But it is possible and very learnable. It’s just that, again, most people are approaching it with good intentions, but bad tools, right? The Seeker category is people who are just starting their journey in both of those categories, right? They’re just starting to learn kind of who they are, what they want, what matters to them, and maybe they haven’t gotten a lot of feedback in their life. And they’re really trying to start that journey. What I always tell seekers, if you feel like you might be in that category for anyone, is pick one to start with.

Don’t try to boil the ocean. Say, do I want to kind of get in touch with myself more? Do I want to understand how other people see me more? And then you can always add things after that. But to your question, where it gets really interesting is when people are high on one and then low on the other. And this happens because those two types of self -knowledge are totally independent. Just because it’s like the executive you were coaching, just because he saw himself clearly doesn’t automatically translate to other people, to him understanding how other people saw him. And then the reverse is true. The category I fall in,

I call pleasers. And these are people who are so focused on knowing how other people see them, that sometimes they forget their own, they forget or they aren’t even in touch with the choices that they can make in their own best interest.

Like the example that I give about this, it’s kind of a silly one, but a couple of years ago, I couldn’t decide what color car to get. I was renewing my lease. I was traveling. I was super busy.

So I texted like my five best friends. And I said, here are the choices. Which one should I pick? Right? It’s like this, this completely other focused view, which can have its advantages, but it can also have really big disadvantages.

You know, in that case, what car did I want? You know, what would make me happy? But going back to your – You’re the one that’s going to be driving it every day, Tasha. Exactly. They’re probably not going to be in it very often. But to your point, there is a pretty wide variety across those three categories. So I think it’s interesting, you know, I would argue that even somebody who says they’re self -aware may not be internally self -aware at all, right? If they say they’re self -aware and you look at them and you’re like, well, buddy, I’m not sure you understand. That probably means they’re low in external self -awareness. But what our research has shown is that regardless of where you fall on that spectrum,

95 % of us believe that we are self -aware. And the real number, according to several different studies that we’ve done, is about 10 to 15 % of us, right? So if 10 to 15 % of us meet those criteria, 95 % of us think we’re self -aware. What that means is that on a good day, 80 % of us are lying to ourselves about whether we’re lying to ourselves.

So that’s the question I ask about your client, right? It’s like, I don’t know. I don’t know. Yeah. It’s like our default should be to believe that we probably are not self -aware or at least not as self -aware as we could be.

Bingo. I always say, I put the word gently in front of that. Gently stop assuming that you’re self -aware. I wouldn’t want any of your listeners to get the wrong idea about this.

I am not here as like a poster child of self -loathing or, you know, self -consciousness or neuroses. That isn’t what self -awareness is at all. But there is, I think you’re exactly right, there’s this paradox that as soon as we stop assuming that we are self -aware, we can actually become that. And, you know, another way to look at it is as long as you’re making forward progress, that’s all that matters at the end of the day. That’s very inspiring. So I want to get into some of the tactics that you recommend. I know there’s the what versus why recommendation. But before we get into that, I just want to touch on something that you said that also is related to something in your book about folks that are like the senior leaders and the most powerful people. So when you’re talking about the pleasers,

It reminds me of some of the conversations that I have in workshops and coaching with my clients when we’re talking about their personal brand. And one of the most important strategic principles,

I believe, of establishing a strong personal brand is to focus on what makes you unique. Because if you’re thinking and focused on your unique strengths and passions, you’re going to end up being as happy or satisfied as you can be and as successful as you can be.

And so when I’m thinking about this two by two matrix, I feel like it might be okay to be a pleaser early in your career, but then at some point, you have to focus on what you want to be and what you are so that you can evolve. And this is what I say. Like it’s early, it’s fine early in your career to look around and copy people because you’re trying different identities, right? But as soon as your mid -career, and definitely when you’re a senior executive, you need to double down on what makes you unique, right? So maybe that’s when being a pleaser can really backfire on you, right? But it happens because we’re social learners. We look around at other people that are successful and we copy them. I guess the question is, do you think there might be kind of a similar insight here about self -awareness as there is about personal branding, where to, let me tell you a little bit about the sample of people that we really studied most exhaustively. And you know this. We called them our self -awareness unicorns. And these are people, yeah, that didn’t start out as self -aware, but through some, like, mysterious process that we wanted to uncover, were able to become dramatically more self -aware and, in fact, highly self -aware. And what was so interesting to me is that there weren’t any patterns in that sample based on any demographic, including age. So I’m thinking about, you know, one person, Kelsey, who is a middle school science teacher, who was very, very early in his career. But even earlier in his career, he had been an engineer and was absolutely miserable. And so he went on this journey of self awareness and said, you know what I really want to do is I really want to be a public school teacher and I want to teach science to kids.

And so from my perspective, I think we miss something really for every year we’re not on this journey. We could be, you know, depending on whether it’s internal or external self -awareness, if we’re missing internal self -awareness, you know, we’ll be like somebody who, you know, is maybe not choosing a career that makes them happy. And for every year that goes by without having external self -awareness, we could be alienating everyone, right? Who knows what impact we’re having if we don’t know and can’t control it? So I see what you’re saying, and I think you’re right. I think in some sense, self -awareness becomes more important the higher up you rise because it’s more rare. But I would also just encourage anybody, like, wherever you are on this journey, wherever you are in your career, it will put you above the pack. If you use some of these tools and really use what’s scientifically supported, it’s a superpower. There’s no better way I can say it.

I absolutely agree. I’ve been telling people lately, I used to say a growth mindset was the superpower that would build your success in your communication skills and then in your career. But I actually think it’s a combination, a growth mindset and self -awareness. In your definition of self -awareness, though, there is the growth mindset because it’s the will, right? We just put everything in there just to make sure.

So my next question is related to what you were just saying about as you get more senior in your career, it becomes more important. So in many things that I’ve read that you’ve written and interviews that I’ve listened to, you list the many, many benefits of self -awareness. Why don’t you just list some of them right now? I love this question. So we could be here forever, but I’ll kind of focus it to your audience specifically.

So people who are self -aware are more successful at work. They get more promotions. They’re better communicators. They’re better influencers. I know, right? Pick your favorite. They’re more confident. They’re more empathetic. They’re more effective and respected leaders. And there’s even some evidence that’s been starting to emerge over the past 10 or so years that in companies with high numbers of self -aware, you know, employees and leaders, those companies are actually more profitable. So a lot of executives might think like, oh, I’m a very busy person and, you know,

I don’t have time to work on my self -awareness. But what I would say is, you know, you are modeling this behavior for the entire organization. And an organization can only be as self -aware as the person at the top or the team at the top or the senior team, right? But wait, there’s more. This is where I’m like the knife salesman person or the infomercial, but wait, there’s more. So self -awareness also benefits us in our personal lives. There are a ton of examples, but I think kind of most universal is that people who are self -aware have better romantic relationships. They have stronger and deeper friendships. And this might be especially interesting for some of your listeners.

They tend to raise more mature and less narcissistic children. Oh, wow. Right? So like pick your poison. The beauty of this, and this is why I call self -awareness the meta -skill of the 21st century is that it is literally the foundation of everything else that you’re accomplishing in your life.

You can only be as influential as you are self -aware. You can only be as good of a communicator as you are self -aware, right? You can only be as authentic as you are self -aware. And so that’s where, you know, I think if, again, if you choose to work on the skill, the ripple effects are are astonishing. Okay. Well, you’ve got me convinced, Tasha, easily. Easily, when you say communication skills, I light up, as you could see. So before we move on to the tactics for how people can work on developing their self -awareness, I just want to ask you this question that occurred to me a couple of days ago.

So on the one hand, there’s this research that one of the things you said was more effective, and it was effective and something leadership, more effective and respected.

Respected leadership, leaders. But there, I think you said there’s also an inverse correlation between power and self -awareness. So how do you reconcile that?

Because presumably these leaders have power. Right. So the way I would reconcile that is that some leaders figure it out and benefit, right? So just because it’s rare at the top ranks of a company doesn’t mean it’s not immensely powerful. And in fact, I would argue that makes it more powerful.

If, you know, we all, I would argue that, like, we all probably start at a similar level of self -awareness, but what happens is when you’re the boss, suddenly you walk in and like nobody’s giving you bad news, everybody’s laughing at all of your jokes, right? Nobody’s bringing you problems before the problem becomes a big problem. And that’s just the nature of, you know, hierarchy and power.

There’s a lot of other examples too of, you know, many leaders, especially senior leaders that I’m sure we both worked with make assumptions. And the assumption is something like, well, I must be doing something right.

I’m the CFO. Right. I must be doing something right. I’m an SVP. And, you know, that is often true. But the success criteria change, we change, the environment changes.

So we can’t ever say, I’m good, right? I’ve arrived. And I think, you know, again, with each successive level of leadership, fewer and fewer people are comfortable telling us the truth. So that’s how I would square that is it is actually, it’s empirically important at high levels, but it’s even more important because it’s so rare. Right. B, not necessarily because of something that you did differently. It’s because of other people treating you differently.

And then you just, but if you have similar beliefs about what feedback is, yeah, I get it. Okay, that makes sense. Please share with us a couple of your favorite frameworks, if you want to call them that, or tactics for helping us improve our self -awareness? Sure. So let me give you two. And I think these are, in some ways, these are the, like, simplest and most practical.

And I use these a lot with my coaching clients. So one is for internal self -awareness and the other is for external self -awareness. So internal self -awareness, we found that those self -awareness unicorns, almost to a person. Each had some kind of daily practice. It was very quick. And again, if they didn’t do it every day, they didn’t beat themselves up, they just tried to do it most days, where they were reflecting on their day, but not in a way that kicked them down something I call the rabbit hole of rumination, right? And the danger of sort of over -analyzing ourselves and our experiences is that we actually lose insight, and it makes us worse off. It makes us more stressed, more anxious, more depressed. And that’s probably a whole other podcast that we can do. But for the purposes of this, the daily check -in process,

I would offer three questions. So think about this, like, the next time you’re brushing your teeth at night, or the next time you’re driving home from work, ask yourself some variation of, number one, what went well today, number two, what didn’t go so well, and then three, how can I be smarter tomorrow? And by the way, if you’re working on something different, if you’re working on something specific, you could even say, how can I be more empathetic tomorrow? How can I be more influential tomorrow. How can I be a better coach tomorrow, right? But I think smarter is a nice catch -all of how can I use what I learn today to be 0 .1 % more self -aware tomorrow.

And what’s really interesting about the journey of self -awareness that we’ve discovered is most of the time improvement doesn’t happen in really dramatic leaps and bounds.

It happens slowly, incrementally, every day. which is maybe what I’ll give you for the second tool.

This is actually not something that I identified. It was something that I named. I call it the Dinner of Truth, but it was developed by a communications professor named Josh Meisner. And Dr. Meisner has been doing this exercise with all of his students for many, many years. I would guess he’s probably in, I mean, at least the thousands, if not the 10 ,000s. And here’s what it entails.

So First, you identify someone. It could be a work colleague. It could be someone in your personal life with whom you want to improve your relationship, right? Then you take them out to coffee, lunch. I like dinner because you can have cocktails and one cocktail can make this a little bit easier if that’s something that you’re into. And then you sit them down and you kind of explain, trying to improve myself awareness. you’re someone that’s very important to me. I have a question I’d like to ask you to answer as honestly as you can. And the question is, what do I do that is most annoying to you?

Everybody’s stomachs collectively dropped upon hearing that question. That is a hardwired human response. We’re very scared of possibly discovering that people don’t think, actionable that I can focus on. So instead of an indictment of who I am, you know, I always worry that my friends would be like, you know, Tasha, I’m really glad you asked because everything you do annoys me.

And I don’t really like that much. And I don’t want to be, but that’s the fear, right? And I know it was, you know, at the time, I even knew it was irrational, but you’re afraid of it. But like, one of my friends, you know, said, I love you in person, but you really annoy me on social media. And I was like, thank you. That’s so actionable, right? And I actually complete, this was like 10 years ago, I completely changed how I was showing up in, in that sort of virtual space. And so I would encourage people as scared as, as scary as it sounds or as scared as you might be.

Give it a try. Just try it once and see what happens. So I guess the criteria, who would you ask? It would be someone who probably Thank you. ask and then you just say, that’s okay. Thank you very much. Let’s have a nice dinner now. But yes, but I think if you’re a little more strategic about it than that, if you say, you know, has this person, you know, maybe been the brave soul who says the thing that nobody wants to say, like in at least one context that I can remember, that’s a pretty good sign. Yeah.

I’ve gotten in the habit. I’m thinking now as I’m speaking with you, Sasha, probably based on my reading of your book and listening to you, I’ve gotten in the habit after I’m done with coaching sessions and with workshops of immediately asking for feedback and make me really clear to people that I truly believe feedback is a gift, right? Because I’m in this environment where I’m coaching people. And if I don’t ask for feedback, unless I did a really bad job, which doesn’t happen, but if I did a really bad job, I’m sure they would let me know, but they’re always like, oh, it was great.

You got nine out of 10, la, la, la, whatever. I’m like, tell me something I can do to improve next time. And most of the time, they don’t share anything. They’re like, no, everything was great.

Is there something you can say to people that encourages them to share feedback with you that you’ve come across? Yeah. I mean, let’s take that situation specifically, because I think it’s something very generalizable, right? We all can ask for immediate feedback. And so how can we get that feedback and have the best chance it’ll be helpful? I might even, so two ideas there.

One would be to share with them past feedback you’ve gotten. You could say, you know, gosh, I remember you know, five years ago I was giving this workshop And a gentleman, you know, came up to me during lunch and said, you know, we don’t have enough breaks and we just don’t have the mental space to think about everything we’re learning. And it was so incredibly helpful. And here’s how I changed the class.

Like, maybe you can give a couple of examples of that. If it’s the first time you’ve asked for feedback on something and you don’t have, you know, a past track record, I would just make some stuff up, like, or even say the things that you’re worried aren’t working, right? Like, you know, I felt like my energy was down a little bit this afternoon. And, you know, maybe that’s in my head, but maybe you can verify that for me. That’s a hypothesis I have that I can’t test without you telling me what you think.

So to kind of give them, like, I’m not just saying this, I’m actually going to give you examples and show you how excited I am about hearing feedback on those examples.

I think that might do a lot. It’s obviously just one thing you can do, but I think that’s worth trying. Definitely worth trying. I’m going to try it and I’ll let you know how it works. I can’t imagine it wouldn’t work, right? It’s like you’re setting the table for the feedback. Yeah. I love it. Okay. So I can imagine some people are hesitant, is a nice way of it to ask for feedback, to gain insight into particularly their external self -awareness, right, and what their identity is in the eyes of other people.

So this leads me to your upcoming book called Shatterproof. Can you tell us a little bit about what you’re going to be talking about in that book? So I have to preface this by saying that the book just went to copy editing,

And I am not yet as smart and talking about it as I know that I need to be. But I’m just going to give you like some headlines. I started writing this book.

I worked on Shatterproof for five years. And it started out as an exploration of, you know, when bad things happen to us, what are the best ways that we can respond?

So that we’re not just sort of getting back to where we were before, but we’re getting, you know, smarter, more confident, stronger, more ready for, you know, whatever challenges lie ahead.

But during this research, COVID happened, as we all remember, and I experienced something that I had never experienced in my life. So I’m a person, you know, I just recently learned I’m not a fourth generation entrepreneur. I’m a fifth generation entrepreneur. and I have been raised, you know, I was raised by a single mother, taught that when you fall down, you get back up again, right? You’re resilient, you’re tough, you persevere. And I’ve, you know, I’ve had lots of challenges in my life like we all have, you know, for me, the biggest one has been a lot of, like, pretty significant health challenges. But I, you know, up until COVID happened, I had always found a way to kind of push through them to endure quiet endurance, right, where I wasn’t complaining.

I was getting up every day. And, you know, for the longest time, I assumed that everyone else was in 10 out of 10 pain every day and they just didn’t complain about it as much as I did. So then I was like,

I have to complain less. But what happened during COVID was literally, and I can trace the day that this happened. I woke up one day And my resilience ran out.

I hit my resilience ceiling where I was, my coping tools that I had relied on for my whole life were not only not working, but they were feeling like extra stress. You know, things like exercising or meditating or my gratitude journal, right? All the things were taught will help us be resilient.

My tank was completely empty. And so that actually kind of kicked me down into this hole of looking at what does the research on resilience actually tell us?

And what’s the alternative? Right. And so the best way to think about becoming shatterproof is a second skill set in addition to resilience.

It’s not that resilience isn’t helpful. It’s that it has its limits, right? So becoming shatterproof is about instead of bouncing back, which is what resilience is, when we become shatterproof, we are proactively growing forward through our toughest challenges. So instead of, you know, waiting for something to be over and just trying to keep persevering, we’re actually saying this is an opportunity for a profound personal transformation. In order to do that, I need to understand what my pain is telling me.

I need to kind of understand the self -limiting patterns and behaviors and beliefs that I’m bringing to the table. I need to pick new ones. And so the book is really about this four -step framework to become shatterproof that we can use, you know, all the time, first of all, but specifically when our resilience is starting to run out so that we’re not, I never want anyone to experience what I experienced and it was about, you know, March or April of 2021. And so the book is really to help people, my publisher didn’t like this title, but the goal is to help people build a more beautiful life in a world of constant chaos.

Instead of just bouncing back, like, and people, you know, they’re falling off equipment or whatever. And some of them, it was like not the first time that day where they had just like something’s happening, right? And I was watching with my mom and I said, well, they’ve got a TED talk. They now hit rock bottom in front of billions of people. Billions, I think, right? Isn’t that? Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, I’m going to move on to the three rapid fire questions are you ready i’m ready okay first question are you an introvert or an extrovert big time introvert really okay i’m what’s called yeah i’m a gregarious introvert that’s the qualifier okay what are your communication pet peeves there’s only one at the top of the list and it’s lying dishonesty Dishonesty.

Okay. Question number three, is there a book or a podcast that you find yourself recommending a lot lately? By the way, I recommend your book all the time. Well,

I and Penguin Random House, thank you, Andrea, for that. That’s very nice of you. So to your question, yeah, the book that I have been, I find I’m recommending most often lately is by my really dear friend Laura Gassner Otting.

She has written two books, but her most recent one is called Wonder Hell. And it’s about what happens when we start to achieve our greatest potential and how it’s not all it’s cracked up to be.

It gets into things like imposter syndrome and all the things that come along with success when we thought success would be easy and we actually discover that it’s hard and it’s it’s a it’s very clever she is um she’s like the best friend that’s going to kick your ass and tell you exactly what you need to do um but in a way that is so kind and warm and she’s also very very funny it’s it’s a delightful book oh I can’t wait to read it i can’t i can’t wait you know based on the fact that we’re both interested in in i guess self -identity and self -awareness And based on the fact that we arrange our bookshelves similarly,

I’m going to maybe make the hypothesis that we might also enjoy reading the same books. So I can’t want to read that book. Is there anything else you want to say, do you want to share with the talk about top listeners about self -awareness?

I mean, I would just say, sort of let me give them two things. Number one, I would encourage everybody listening to this to go take the five minute insight quiz. You can get it at https://www.insight-book.com/quiz.It again takes five minutes. It’s free. You fill out 14 questions. You send it to someone else who knows you well. They fill out 14 questions. Very important. And then when both results are in, you get a nice report that shows you high level, which of those four boxes are you in right now? And then it gives you, you know, usually two or three very practical things you can do if you decide you want to improve.

So I think that’s the first thing. But the second thing, I’ll go back to, you know, kind of a theme that I think we’ve touched on multiple times, which is

Amazing. Thank you so much, Tasha.

I really appreciate your time and your expertise, and it’s really nice to get to know you. You too. I really enjoyed this. Yeah, two self -identity, self -development, bookshelf nerds. We had to come together at some point, so it was a pleasure. I love it. Thank you.

Thanks again to Tasha for sharing her insights about self-awareness.

Yah I got that.

Her book is called Insight and she’s insightful.

OK – let me now highlight three of the INSIGHTS from our conversation that I want to reinforce:

First – The significance of self-awareness.

They get more promotions.

They’re better influencers.

They’re more empathetic.

They have better romantic relationships.

And.

As Tasha says, self -awareness the meta -skill of the 21st century.

That’s the first point.

The second point I was going to reinforce is the definition of self-awareness. This is about thinking but self-awareness in a more disciplined way, beyond self-awareness as “thinking about thinking”. Tasha’s definition is the will and the skill to understand who we are and how you’re seen.

There are 4 components of this definition:

As Tasha mentioned, it might be helpful to think about these last two dimensions – internal and external self-awareness, in terms of a twox2. There’s low and high interval self awareness on one axis and low and high external self-awareness on the other axis. The rare folks who are high on both are what she calls the unicorns.

Many of us are on the diagonal – There are the Introspectors (those with high internal and low external self-awareness) – I’ve worked with some clients who are Introspectors. They’re clear on who they are but don’t challenge their own views or search for blind spots by getting feedback from others. They end up in big trouble. Then there’s the Pleasers (those with low internal and high external self-awareness) – Tasha admitted she might be a pleaser, and I think I might be too. We’re so focused on appearing a certain way to others that we could be overlooking what matters to us.

The last point I want to reinforce is Tasha’s suggestion for how to become a unicorn. She has two suggestions:

The idea here is that is that improvement in your self-awareness doesn’t happen quickly, Rather, it happens slowly, incrementally, a little bit every day.

The second suggestion from Tasha is

You know what? I’m going to start doing this. I‘m not going to wait for some fancy dinner reservation. I’m just going to ask my co-workers, friends and family what I do that annoys them. Actually, I already know what annoys my family. They tell me all the time. But I’m not sure about my friends and co-workers. Hmm.

Well that’s it!

The three things I wanted to reinforce for you are the significance of self-awareness, which includes the long list of different ways it can benefit you; the definition of self-awareness, along with the helpful 2×2 framework that distinguishes between low and high internal and external self-awareness; and two ways to boost your self-awareness. To boost your self-awareness, ask yourself the three questions: What went well today? What didn’t go so well? How can I be better tomorrow? And, of course, there’s the Dinner of Truth.

Thanks again to Tasha. Tasha, I can’t wait to read your next book, SHATTERPROOF, and interview you again. You can connect with Tasha through her coordinates in the show notes. My coordinates are there too, so please connect with me anytime. Check out the TalkAboutTalk.com website or send me a DM on LinkedIn. I love hearing from you.

Talk soon!

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