What does it take to earn a board seat and influence what happens once you’re in the room? Award-winning corporate director Deborah Rosati shares what she’s learned from over two decades in the boardroom. 

In this episode, you’ll learn:

Deborah Rosati is the founder and CEO of Women Get On Board and co-founder of Women Funding Women. Her mission is clear: to help women show up with confidence and credibility at the highest levels of leadership.

From asking better questions to knowing when not to speak, this is essential listening for anyone pursuing board roles or seeking to show up with confidence in high-stakes meetings.

💻Website: TalkAboutTalk.com

💻Website: https://deborahrosati.ca/

💻Website: http://womengetonboard.ca/

📖 Let Them Theory by Mel Robbins: https://amzn.to/41mgXuf

Deborah Rosati: I think, as women, we sometimes hold ourselves back. We’re not good enough. We’re not smart enough. We’re not pretty enough. And you know what? We are enough. 

Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: If you ever wondered what it takes to land a corporate board seat, you’re about to hear from someone who’s made it her mission to show you how.

Deborah Rosati is an award-winning corporate director who served on boards for over 20 years. She’s also the founder and CEO of Women Get On Board and the co-founder of Women Funding Women Incorporated. She’s on a mission to increase the number of women on boards, close the funding gap, and cultivate the next generation of female corporate directors and founders. In this conversation that you’re about to hear, Deborah shares what boards actually look for in their candidates, what holds many women back, and the exact playbook that you can use to go from quiet expert to board-ready, visible, and in demand.

You’ll also learn an acronym that you can use to guide your communication in board meetings and beyond. And I love this acronym. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. 

I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and this is Talk About Talk, where we coach ambitious executives to stand out with confidence and credibility. To learn more, click the links in the show description. Now, let’s jump right into my conversation with Rosati.

Thank you, Deborah, for being here today to talk with me and the Talk About Talk listeners about getting women on boards. 

DR: Well, thank you, Andrea. Delighted my favorite topic each and every day. 

AW: So we’re gonna put a little bit of a communication skills spin on this as we were talking about, and my first question for you is, can you help us identify some communication skills that are particularly important for board members?

DR: That is a great question. I think I’ve thought long and hard on that. I would say for board members in particular, you have to remember your role. Your role is there to have an oversight, insight, foresight in hindsight. So you’re not there to manage the business day to day. So how you’re showing up is really important.

That ties back to your role from an oversight perspective. So active listening. You have to be going into the boardroom, not telling the executive team what to do, but listening and be really active. And I know I have to work on that each and every day. But that listening, because if you’re there to provide and make informed decisions, you have to understand the issues, and you need clarity around the issues.

And so a way that I like to communicate on the active listening is, so Andrea, let’s say you are the board member and you’re presenting a sensitive matter, I might come back to you, Andrea, and say, so Andrea, what I’m hearing you say is x, y, z. Am I missing anything, or can you help me understand? Right? And that’s really that active listening, where you’re listening to that person.

But maybe you need to clarify, maybe you need some additional information, or, uh, you don’t wanna come across as a board member telling the person across the table from you what to do. And I’ve been on the other side of that as an executive, where once a quarter would come in and tell me what to do as the CFO, and I vowed to myself, I would never be one of those board members.

So I feel like active listening is number one. Secondly, showing up with empathy, being an empathetic listener, and being empathetic in your communications. So. I think as women, we do a really great job of showing up with empathy. We’re listening. That’s our EQ, right? EQ, our emotional intelligence. Empathy is one element of it.

So when you’re coming in, you’re looking, you’re observing. I might be observing that someone’s really tired in the boardroom, someone’s really tired around the table. Executive, it could be a board member, and maybe it’s a communication that you have not right then and there in the board meeting, but it might be after you call the person up and say, Hey Andrea, I noticed you’re really tired.

Is everything okay? Being empathetic? Maybe understanding, you know, the board meetings that the length of the board meetings, the time that you’re communicating with each other, and maybe some people have different styles, right? Some people like to be confrontational, some like to be collaborative, and so really that rolls up to that emotional intelligence, and I think as women, we do a really good job showing up with that, but we can lean in with that empathy.

AW: So, listening and being empathetic. I have to tell you, I’ve been on some not-for-profit boards, and I remember this, this sort of mantra, which was nose in, hands out. You see the head nod. Um, I feel like this should be updated based on what you said, which makes a lot of sense. Maybe it’s ears in hands out. 

DR: I love that. Well, so yeah, so Andrea, you’re right, there’s a commentary called Nose and Fingers Out. So whether you put your fingers in or you put your hands in, whichever, it’s basically saying, listen, your job is to have an oversight, not to get into the trenches. So I do like that ears in because we, you have to be listening. 

And I think the other element that really I amplifies your communication skills in the boardroom is there’s a term called WAIT. Have you heard of that? 

AW: No. Tell me. 

DR: Oh, I love it. So you have to think about when you’re showing up in the boardroom, why am I talking? 

AW: Oh my gosh, Deborah. I love that. 

DR: I have to remind myself all the time, Andrea. So these are tips for me as like, okay, I get excited. I wanna show up, I wanna comment, but then I have to step back and go. But wait a sec, Deborah. Why am I talking? What do I need to bring to the table? You don’t have to be the smartest in the room. You don’t have to be the loudest in the room, and even your positioning of when you lean in to have a conversation. Are you the last to speak? Are you the first to speak?

AW: Oh my goodness. So I am gonna steal, first of all, I love acronyms 

DR: And this one is someone else. Don’t you worry? It’s public domain. 

AW: Okay. Okay. So why am I talking? I encourage my clients to think about no matter what level they are in the organization, to track the ratio. How much am I talking versus everyone else? And when you’re junior in your career, a lot of folks need to speak up. So if there’s four people in the room, try to speak at least 25%, the folks that are more senior.

They need to speak typically less than their fair share, and also, as a leader, make sure that everybody else is speaking their fair share. So, making space as a leader for everyone to contribute. And so you’re taking this kind of idea of tracking the ratio and actually turning it inward and saying not only how much am I talking, but why am I talking right now?

What is the purpose? And I think, um. I would just write this word on the top of like the meeting agenda and write, wait, and then look, when you look down, ask yourself why am I talking? And it will amplify our self-awareness like exponentially without a doubt. And that kind of goes back to that empathy and emotional intelligence.

And I, the other element I think when you are in the boardroom is you want to be an ally for others in the boardroom. So, especially if you’re chair of the board,  your role is to be the sort of the lead conductor. You’re facilitating an orchestra to have conversation to put out the best music as a team.

So when you’re thinking about facilitation, not only as a chair, but as another, as a fellow board member, is look around the room who hasn’t spoken. So you may be able to amplify someone else’s voice. And it doesn’t, that doesn’t apply just in the boardroom. That applies everywhere where you go, whether it’s an executive meeting, whether it’s a client meeting, whatever meeting it is.

But I do think it’s important to, if you notice that someone has not spoken up, and some cultures, they’re more submissive not to speak up, right? So you wanna encourage dialogue. And that really goes to that whole diversity of thought and diversity of practice. And everybody has different communication styles, as you know.

AW: Yeah. And, I absolutely agree. The onus is on you, whether in the boardroom or outside of the boardroom. If you are an effective leader, you’re making sure you’re pulling out everyone’s valuable opinion. Otherwise, why are you at the meeting  that’s a whole other topic. 

So Deborah, I feel like that this is all great.

You’re going into your meeting, you’re listening, you’re ears in. Hands out or fingers out. You’re being empathetic. You’re asking yourself, why am I talking? You’re prepared. Sometimes things go sideways in these meetings. I know. And sometimes you’re an, you may anticipate it because there’s some sort of, uh, restructuring or investigation or there’s major, uh, succession planning issues going on.

You’re nodding your head. Yes. Checked. Been there. Yeah. Been there, been there. So when things get intense, when maybe there’s even conflict, maybe amongst board members or between the board and the executive, do you have some guidelines for either mindsets or tactics that people can try to keep things productive. 

DR: Well, you know, there’s a saying, stay calm and surface with grace. So if you can think of that, of course, there’s always gonna be conflict. There’s going to be, because there’s, the stakes are high. So you go through, you’ve talked about some very stressful, very complex matters. So could be an M and A.

Let’s use M and A as an example, okay. For acquisition. And I’ll give you, I love to give stories, so if I can, kind of. One. So typically when you get into these unique situations, they’re special situations, and usually you’re forming a special committee of the board. And that special committee has a mandate, right?

Because a lot of these special situations are very time sensitive. So, you’re forming a special committee, and that maybe it’s two or three, maybe four members of the board, depending on the size of the board, or going on this special committee, because there’s a lot of diligence, there’s a lot of work. At the end of the day, you, if you’re gonna make an informed decision on whether you’re gonna accept a proposal, whether it’s a special investigation, whether it’s succession planning, crisis communication, you’ve gotta make an informed decision as a board.

So you ultimately have to collaborate, but you sometimes have to go into special task force special committee to go deeper into the, and so I had a situation where we were a board and the chair of the board, we formed the special committee and he said, okay. And there was four of us. And he said, you’re all gonna lean in.

You’re gonna lean in. And Deborah, you’re gonna lean in on due diligence and Sue and Joe, let’s use their names. You’re gonna lean in on this, and you’re gonna, and really what he was doing was really trying to activate us in an area that he knew we had expertise, but he didn’t want us all leaning in the same direction. Right.

And it was powerful moment in time for me as a director where a chair all saw the value that I could bring and he just positioned it. And I never thought that my work was about leaning in. And it made that special committee really impactful and very agile because we all had our lean-in roles, and it really allowed us to facilitate our special committee meetings.

So when we showed up. It was, we each had areas that we were leaning in. We were closely working with, I was working with valuation experts, I was working with investment bankers, I was working with the CFO. I was working like there was a team, and I was showing up in a lot of those meetings to just be eyes and ears of the board not to.

And so that when we met as a special committee, I could lean in on where we were in the process, where the discussions were, and so to me, that communication was the delegation divide and task, but it was framed in this lean-in concept. So what he took the expertise of the various, and it was really great because we were able to divide and conque,r and it was a really successful M and A and we, it was in 60 days or less. So you’re working, you know, round the clock. But it was really valuable. So from a communication that chair of the board who ended up chairing the special committee, really empowered us as a committee. 

AW: So Deborah, what you’re describing here works, integrates so beautifully with the work that I do with my clients on helping them develop their personal brand or their professional identity, and to summarize it as succinctly as I can.

Basically, there is real power in identifying your unique strengths and passions and especially as you, as you become mid-career and, uh, more senior in your career, if you wanna have, you know, your most satisfying and successful career, which of course you do double down on those strengths, and you’re saying in the board context, this can actually help you be productive.

So I just wanna underscore for the listeners that everything they’ve heard me say in the past about personal branding, you could definitely not. You can, you should apply to your board role. Make sure your board chair and the nomination and governance committee understand exactly what your strengths are.

I wanna share a really, it’s not even a story, it’s more like an anecdote, but I was on a hospital foundation board and I have a PhD in business, so I can talk finance and strategy and marketing and blah, blah, blah. But in this foundation meeting that I’m thinking about, in particular, the finance guys, the finance committee.

I was going way deep in, in like in front of all of us, right? And I was, I actually thought to myself, why am I here? I can’t contribute anything, whatever. And they kept getting more and more and more into the minutia. And then I thought to myself, I had this moment where, kind of like you said, I was like, why am I here? Why am I talking? 

I’m here because of my strategy and branding expertise, and communication expertise. So I raised my hand and I literally said the words based on my expertise. From what I’m hearing from a financial perspective, we can communicate it this way to our foundation, blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Stakeholders and everyone, I remember physically, everyone turned and nodded, and I was like. Oh, there’s magic in really doubling down on what your unique role or expertise is on the board. Right. 

DR: Can I just extend that out for you, Andrea? Because I know we’re gonna talk about women and communication style.

So what you did, and I love it, and I wanna elevate that for you, is instead of saying, Hey, I don’t know why I am here, you turned it around, you positioned to say. I’m here. Yes. Here’s what I’m hearing and here’s how we can apply it, and here’s what I bring to the table. Right? You were able to turn it around to use your value proposition and what made you unique, but it took you had to step back from the situation, right?

AW: I did. I did. 

DR: And but you, I love that. That was so powerful. I’ve had situations, if I may, ’cause this is very much the same topic, where I was just joining a new, uh, public company board post a GM. It’s during COVID, there’s Zug base, Switzerland. Nobody’s, I haven’t met a single person. In person, go into the AGM, and they’re just forming this nominating corporate governance committee.

And I know for certain they wanted me to chair the audit committee, ’cause yes, I have financial expertise, but there was this moment in the meeting that I had this pivot. Sometimes you just have to wait for it and wait. Find that nugget. So it came up. The question came up was like, well, what’s a nominating corporate governance committee?

I’m new into this board role. We’re all virtual. And all I said to the chair of the board is, can I take this? I would like to answer this question. He said, you go ahead, Deborah. And at the end of the sentence, I said, And by the way, that’s the committee I wanna chair. 

AW: Oh, wow. Beautiful. So there’s something about focus here, right? It’s not that I didn’t say I was good at everything. I said, based on my specific expertise, here’s my input. And you were saying, I can take this. I’m not saying I’m leading the meeting, I’m not taking over, but I want to answer this and this and yeah. So there’s something magical about focus.

DR: Well, but I think what it does is we’ve given ourselves permission. We have the confidence to say, yes, I know this. I don’t know everything, but I’m gonna lean in here, and this is where my focus and I know I can make those contributions. But you have to be certain and confident that you can deliver, 

AW: Right? You don’t wanna overpromise and underdeliver, but you do wanna be confident at the same time in what your specific focused expertise is. 

So let’s shift then to women on boards, and I know you’ve. I did a little bit of reading and research. Deborah, I know you’ve been the only woman on the board before.

I was the only woman in the marketing department at Rotman when I was on the faculty there, teaching in the MBA program. It’s a fascinating experience. A little bit horrifying. I will admit. Do you have any advice generally for women who find themselves as the only one or one of the only ones in terms of establishing credibility beyond what we were just mentioning and highlighting your unique expertise? How else can we establish credibility and influence in our board roles? 

DR: Well, we have to have courage and confidence without a doubt. And but to build that credibility, you just don’t show up and say, Hey, I’m credible because I have my FCPA and I have my ICD. And I’m a doctor. I have my honorary doctorate that people read that.

But it’s, you’ve gotta build that trust and that credibility, right? It’s not instantly. So for me, when I go into situations or I go into new environments, it takes time. So you’re reading the person, and I’ll give you an example of where it was instant credibility, but I didn’t do it intentionally. I’m in a board interview, and I am meeting with the CEO and the CFO.

It was a public, and I read all the disclosures. I read the financial statements, the notes to the financial statements, and I asked one simple question and the question was, I noticed in note 15 of your financial statements, in your segmented information, that you’ve got a healthcare division. When are you spinning it off?

The CEO looked at me. He said, are we under an NDA? And I said, well, no, it’s in your notes through your financial statements. The CFO looked at me, and we just continued on. So I wasn’t there to do a aha, but I was there to understand how impacting the company. And so it was just it. It wasn’t a trick question; it was just a question, but it was helping me inform where the company was going.

So whatever your expertise may be is use it appropriately at the right time. Don’t be flustered by it. Don’t ask for permission to do that. I responded, and I said, no, we don’t need to be on an NDA because it’s so, when you’re informed and you have that information, and you have the expertise, it is really powerful to show up with it. Don’t not use it, but use it at the appropriate times.  

AW: So, I’m hearing here be very prepared, which on one hand is almost like generic advice, but on the other hand. I know from being on boards that’s not always what happens. So be very prepared and don’t underestimate the power even of asking questions in terms of establishing your credibility. Right. 

DR: Well, it’s that style. Yeah. I always like to kind of approach it. If I’m not certain, I might just say, Hey, can you help me understand? I’ve seen it this way. I don’t know if I fully understand where you’re coming from, but help me understand, well, that’s a different approach than saying, why did you deliver this?

This does not make sense. It’s like you understand and don’t forget as board members. From the Rotman, from ICD, they talk about the divide, and they think about a Grand Canyon, and there’s this big divide. The board’s on one side, management is on the other side, and there’s this divide. Management spends 2000 to 3000 hours in their day job and what they do, the board is maybe two to 300 hours, so 10% of their time. So there’s a big divide between what management is doing and understands the business versus the board. So it’s always, you’re always trying to think about how you can get better alignment and how those communication skills can help you at the end of the day, make a more informed decision.

AW: So this sounds like advice that everyone would benefit from, not just women. Is there anything in particular that, uh, and I’m not, I’m not negating it, it’s still critical, but is there anything in particular that stands out based on your own experience and or mentoring women, stories that you’ve heard, things you’ve observed that maybe women need to pay more attention to?

DR: Well, I like to use the Barbie analogy, and yes, I’m wearing my Barbie pink. I think as women, we sometimes hold ourselves back. We’re not good enough, we’re not smart enough, we’re not pretty enough. And you know what? We are enough. And so the reason I say that is I talk to a lot of women, and they’ll say to me.

I don’t have financial expertise. And I say to them, guess what? Not everybody on the board needs financial expertise. You need to have financial acumen. You need to have financial literacy, but you do not need to have, so the whole, or there’ll be the conversation is, well, I’m not a lawyer. I said, not everybody on the board is going to be a lawyer.

And so sometimes we discount what we truly bring to the board because we talk about what we don’t have versus. We have, and I think to you with your clients and your personal branding, it’s all about who you are and what and how you show up and what you bring to the table. As women, we need to show up with our best foot forward, but we have unique skills.

AW: Yes. So lead your strengths and then, you know, in your interview or whatever, you can say, here are the areas where I have baseline knowledge or experience, or I’m getting training on this thing, or whatever. But highlighting first and foremost what your strengths and your expertise is. 

DR: I would take it one step forward is just build on your strengths. I don’t think you need to talk about your weaknesses. If it comes up and say, Hey, Andrea, I noticed you haven’t been on a public company board. Tell me how we can get comfort around that. You might say, well, actually, I have worked for public companies in marketing and communications, and here’s the value that I contribute. Right? So I would take the weakness out because as women we will always go default to that as opposed to, here’s how I’m leading. 

AW: I love it, Deborah. So, something that you don’t know about me yet is that I am a huge fan of the power of three. In fact, it’s a joke with many of my clients in my, I told you that at the end, I’m gonna summarize with the three key learnings that I wanna reinforce.

I have a self-introduction framework that was published in the Harvard Business Review, a simple framework for introducing yourself. It’s three steps. It’s like three. I have three kids. It’s all about, when I say, whenever you’re wondering how many. Make three your default, and I read that you have a unique perspective on the power of three. Can you share that with the listeners? 

DR: Thank you, Andrea. So it is not something that I made up. It’s out there. It’s the power of three with respect to boardrooms and women in the boardroom. So one woman on a board is a token, two is a presence, and three is a voice. I think that I have been the only one, a token or the only one, two, and it changes the dynamics, and I know we’ll get into that different style as well.

AW: But also just on threes, Dale Carnegie, did you ever do public speaking or read hit? 

DR: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of influence. He said, you know, you’ve, for public speaking, it’s three Es. You’ve earned the right, you’re eager to tell, and you’re enthusiastic, right? So, yeah. I love the three I. I love three. It’s everywhere. I love threesomes.

W: Deborah, you’re gonna get quoted on that. Okay. That’s funny. So you said you’ve had experience as a token, as like one of two in terms of the presence and in terms of three being a voice, it’s real. 

DR: It’s real and then tip it where you actually have a majority of women on board and that’s, I’ve had that experience, so I’ve had the full range, but usually being the only.

AW: Yeah. Oh gosh. I, you’re reminding me of, and I can’t remember who it is, but it’s one, it’s a, a powerful like managing director of one of the big investment banks on, on Wall Street, and she’s had an incredibly successful career, and she said. People always told me, Oh, poor you. You’re the only woman in the room.

And she said, in the back of my mind, I was always like, no, that this is what makes me memorable. I’m the only woman here. So, I mean, there are strategies that we can use sometimes when we’re forced into it, but it’s not ideal. 

DR: Well, I always look at it that I was given the opportunity as a professional, so I never looked at it to say, Hey, I’m a woman, I need to be treated different. 

I have two examples. If I may, 2015, I go for a board interview. It was public company and it was, uh, intergenerational. It was all men, and it was retail. 80% of your purchaser or consumers and retail are women. So they were going to be bringing the first woman on their board.

And I walk in and I have my first interview with the CEO, and he says, you know, I’m not interviewing you because you’re a woman. I thought I am 30 plus years into my career here, or maybe somewhere, maybe 25 years. I thought that’s a really odd way to start a conversation, but I thought I was prepared. I reviewed all the documents and I was very curious on the position and the opportunity.

So all I said to him was, I’m not here because I’m a woman. I’m here because I can add value to your board, and let’s talk about your strategy? I had a two-hour strategy conversation with him, and I just stepped back and I thought, well, he is probably uncomfortable. He probably didn’t know how to position it, and I didn’t take offense to it. I thought I just came back even stronger. Um, and.

AW: Good for you. 

DR: And I had to, it was 2015 and I’m like, how is this happening in my career? And then I have one other scenario was I was in venture capital. And I was the only female general partner in that particular office. And we would have meetings, and my colleagues would go to the men’s bathroom.

They’d come back from the men’s bathroom, and they’d made a decision. So I started following them to the men’s bathroom, and they started taking notice, and they said to me, what are you doing standing out here? I said, if you’re making decisions in there, then I’m gonna be in there making decisions with you. They did not do that ever again. 

AW: Wow. Deborah, you’re ballsy. Well, I had no choice. Oh my gosh. Desperate times call for desperate measures. So I’m gonna guess, is it true that you weren’t always this confident? I mean, it sounds like you were confident in your voice, right? You, you said to this, this, uh, CEO, that I’m not just speaking as a woman, I’m speaking as someone who’s qualified that you basically told these men that it’s not appropriate for you to be making decisions in the men’s room. Early in your career? I mean, were you always this confident woman, or did you evolve over time? 

DR: I think evolution definitely evolved, but I think from a young age. I had an older brother. I have a younger sister. My brother didn’t wanna go to school. I said to my mom that I’ll go to school for him. He didn’t wanna swim. I said, I’ll swim for him. So I guess I had this kind of throughout my life. I wouldn’t say I had as much confidence as I do now, and kind of what I know now versus what I knew back then. But I always had curiosity.

And I always, when the door opened, I felt that door opened for a reason. So I’m gonna walk through it. There have been many a times where I fell down and had to pick myself up. There are times where I thought, what was I thinking? And why am I doing this? But I think the confidence really came from just wanting to always be moving ahead, doing something unique, doing something different.

But having the base that I’m a professional, I’ve been trained a certain way, I’ve had different situations, and at the end of the day, it really comes down to your inner drive, right? 

AW: I’ve heard you use the term curious and curiosity a few times. Can you comment on the role of curiosity in your success and the success of other folks that you see?

DR: Well, curiosity to me is something about you have an open mind, you’re curious on something, you’re curious why is this not? And so for me, when I founded Women Get On Board, my curiosity was why are these women always asking me how I got on a board? And this was like going back to like 2009. I started doing slides, and I called them, Women Get on Board, I do these presentations.

And I was just curious, well, why do I always get asked this question? And like, I know there’s other women on boards. And so that curiosity really led me to being as an entrepreneur. It’s like, well, how come no one else is doing this? And if there really is this demand, what should I do about it? So that was curiosity for me that really created this platform for Women Get on Board. 

And then the curiosity of just opportunity to meet women like you and have conversations. I’m curious when I go on every call that I have and every meeting I have, I’m curious, how did you get to be where you are? What do unique, and how can I help you? So that curiosity is something I guess, ingrained in me.

AW: So I was telling you before we press record here, that this morning I did a workshop and I was coaching some women on their branding and their, and their confidence, and we ended up talking about the growth mindset or curiosity a lot and how I have definitely no, I mean, I advocate for, for a growth mindset.

I encourage it in myself, in my kids, in the folks that I coach, and I have noticed that most of my clients self-select. They are; they have a growth mindset. They want to improve; otherwise, they wouldn’t be investing in coaching. Right. But there are a few who are less so, and they inevitably are not as successful.

Like I, I think there’s a very strong correlation between a growth mindset, curiosity, however you want to, a lifelong learner, whatever, however you wanna label it, and success. So I was curious about, and I’m, I’m not surprised, before I get into the three rapid fire questions, Deborah, I wanna ask you if you could go back to when you were maybe interviewing for your first corporate board role, and then also when you were first starting to attend, uh, these meetings. If you could go back and give yourself some advice, what advice and Yes. I’m asking you this so that other people that are listening can maybe extrapolate. What advice would you give to your younger self? 

DR: My younger self, so I have been serving on corporate boards for almost 25 years, and it really came to me ’cause I was in venture capital, and as a general partner, I served on the portfolio company boards.

So, by virtue of that position. I ended up being a board member, but post that when I was independent. For me, was doing due diligence, do as much due diligence on the financials, on the people, on the culture, on the industry. And a lot of people feel like, oh, it’s an opportunity. I can’t ask these questions.

And I’m like, you have a fiduciary duty to do due diligence, and the company is gonna do due diligence on you. So I would do, I would. Earlier self, do more due diligence. And you know, I don’t know if it was overanxious to get on that certain board or do it, or you knew the people. But I would say, be prepared.

Do your due diligence, research, and you know what? Be prepared to say no, say no. This isn’t the right fit for me now, but I know three other women, right? So there’s nothing wrong with assessing an opportunity and saying no. Right. It’s your reputation, it’s your time. Also, know when to leave a board. Um, so always know your exit strategy.

Is it the right time? Is management change? Is it situation? So just be really deliberate in why you’re joining a board. So make sure it aligns with all your values, you’ve done your due diligence, and also know when to leave a board.

AW:  I think smart for people, even in the positions that they’re taking outside of their board roles. Right. It’s almost like we’re going full circle here, Deborah. You started with the, why am I talking? It’s, and then it becomes like, why am I here? Like you have a purpose. You’re aligning your objectives and your values with those of the organization. You have a purpose, not just for talking, but actually for showing up and for, you know, formally taking that role.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are not as thoughtful or purposeful, right? About what they’re doing and why they’re doing it in the moment or generally in their careers. 

DR: Well, what I see a lot of too, a lot of women are very want to get on a board and they’re super excited. I’m on a not-for-profit, and then they go on another not-for-profit and another, and really, what I say to them is, why are you not elevating your board leadership?

Why you’re not chairing a committee, why you’re not sharing the board because part of that evolution in your board journey is to elevate your board leadership, too, right? So as you develop your skills and your knowledge in the boardroom, you should also want to be taking on those leadership roles. And if you look at the data, less than 8% of TSX-listed companies have female chairs of the board.

AW: Sorry, what percent? 

DR: 8%. Oh. Wow, that was last year’s data. 8%. So if we’re gonna go, we have a seat at the table, we also should be leaning in and taking on leadership roles. A hundred percent. 

AW: Okay. Are you ready for the three rapid-fire questions, Deborah?

DR: Bring it. 

AW: First question, are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how does that affect your communication? 

DR: Well, I’m sure I won’t surprise you. I’m an extrovert. 

AW:  No, I’m not surprised. 

DR: And how does it affect my communication? Well, I’m working on listening. Because I have a lot of energy, I have enthusiasm. I show up. I wanna fill those blank spaces. So I have to work on why am I’m talking. I have to work on, so I know I can bring the energy in, but I also wanna make sure that I’m giving space for others and be very inclusive for others to show up and have their thoughts known.

AW: Deborah, this is like a masterclass in self-awareness that you’re doing, and actually the very first answer that you had was, was, you know. Ears in, hands out or the listening skills. So you are, um, a testament to self-awareness. Okay. Question number two. I’m actually very curious about this. What are your communication pet peeves?

 DR: Oh, my communication, pet peeves are people that talk the talk. But don’t walk the talk. So they can be great communicators. They can be telling you all the great things. At the end of the day, they don’t show up, they don’t deliver. You talked about under-promise and over-deliver. So they have the opposite, over-promise and under-deliver.

And so to me, you know, there’s, there’s a style you always observe and you take away. You’ve thought, oh, I really liked how they showed up. So that would be a pet peeve as somebody who just wants to take up space, who wants to be the loudest, wants to be the smartest in the room, but at the end of the day, doesn’t give other people opportunity to speak.

AW: Or they’re not doing the work to back up their convictions. 

DR: Yeah, and as women, one of the things I have heard as well is we’re worker bees. So when you show up on a board, we might get delegated, like I had that lean-in concept for the special committee, but it was, we were all leaning in, and we all had different areas.

But if I was the only one leaning in and it was all men on a special committee, I might have to step back and go, wait a sec, this does not make sense. Right? I think when we show up, we wanna make sure that we have an equal voice and we have influence and power. And it’s not being delegated to be the worker bee, uh, on the committee or on the board.

AW: Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh, recently had an episode with Dr. Amy Diehl, who’s a co-author of a book called Glass Walls, and she talks about all of this, including office housekeeping or unpromotable tasks, so you can guess what that is. So you wanna make sure it’s not that, and she said, Andrea, it’s not that you’re not doing those things, but it’s that you’re not the only one that’s doing them.

Right. And I think if the same thing goes for all of the work. You don’t wanna be like, oh, good girl, de doing all the work while the guys are doing all the talking. No, no, no, no, no. You’re speaking for your work. And then they’re speaking for their work, not just raising their hands and, and, uh. Whatever, boasting, whatever, whatever vacuous comment it is.

Um, okay. Third and last rapid-fire question is, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending a lot lately? 

DR: Can I give you two, please? The one that I read recently, and she has, she’s got her global podcast theory, um, is Mel Robbins, as you know, and she has her book, Let Them Theory.

Phenomenal book. It’s about communications, it’s about relationship. And I kind of went in and she has re she’s got it research back. But the real is about setting boundaries for yourself. Let them, so, you know, we all have kids, they’re growing up. Sometimes we wanna do everything, sometimes we have to let them.

And then her view is, let them, but then let me, so you as an individual. So it’s really about setting boundaries and communication, and in lifestyle and everything from family to work, to love relationships. It’s, it’s a full gamut. Friendships, friendships, um, why certain friends are in your life today, and then proximity and not necessarily proximity.

So, you know, it almost kind of gives you the permission to say. Yeah, I, uh, maybe I don’t have that friendship anymore because I moved away, or maybe I wasn’t investing in it, and it’s okay. I think it was really giving us permission to let them, it’s called the theory. You said there were two, is it because it’s a podcast and a book?

Well, I read it in Audibles. Okay. So I listened to it in Audibles. So the other book that just, and you probably know her, Lisa Bragg with Bragging Rights. I know her very well. Yes. You would really speak to some of the work that you’re doing as well, is that whole. Having a purposeful self-promotion. I just heard her speak last week at a women in AI, and you know who one of the award winners were, Andrea? 

AW: Yes, I do. Sherry Shannon-Vanstone. 

DR: Yes. Uh, Lisa was there, one of the speakers, and it was really enlightening and I hadn’t heard her speak on her book. So then I just said, I’ve just ordered four copies for my friends, and she’s like. Congratulations. Go on Amazon and put some good reviews on. But I liked her approach is really, it is that we as women, we have to be more purposeful in how we self-promote ourselves.

AW: So I will put links to Mel Robbins’ book and to Lisa Bragg’s book in the, um, in the show notes. And I’m, I’m not bragging here, but I have to tell you, I’m quoted in Lisa’s book. 

DR: So, Andrea, am I not surprised? ’cause I haven’t read it. I just got it. But I’m like, read delve into it. 

AW: Yeah. You can see the connection. You can see the connection, yeah. Is there anything else you wanna share with the listeners that talk about, talk listeners, Deborah, about getting on boards, about communicating about your board role or communicating when you’re, when you’re in the board meeting? 

DR: I would like to say that it’s a journey. And if I look back over the 25 years, how I showed up 25 years ago versus how I show up now is different.

And I think you have to be kind to yourself. A lot of people set these expectations, and they should be this and they should be that, and it’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You gotta work your way there. And so it is a journey, and you wanna map it out and each time you take on a new board role or a new opportunity, make sure you’re learning up and you’re going outside your comfort zone. Always be pushing. 

Don’t go to status quo. Don’t go back to, Hey, I’ve always done it. You should. It should be continuous learning. So that’s why I’d say it’s a journey. It’s a very fulfilling journey, but be very deliberate and strategic where you put your time and how you value yourself.

AW: Thank you so much, Deborah, for your time and for sharing your expertise. I learned a lot from you, and I really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you. 

DR: Thank you, Andrea.

AW: So many nuggets, whether you’re seeking to improve your communication, or you’re seeking a board position, or you’re a woman looking to establish credibility or perhaps all of the above. Thank you so much, Deborah. Okay, let me share with you now my three key learnings. If you’ve been listening, you know that I am a big fan of the power of three, and it turns out so is Deborah.

So let’s make that the first point. The power of three when it comes to women on boards, one woman on a board is a token, two is a presence, and three is a voice. If you lead a board or a committee, or even just a team, I hope you’ll consider this rule of three. One is a token. Two is a presence. Three is a voice.This is the power of three. 

The second point that I wanna reinforce is the power of preparation. Deborah shared a powerful story about how she asked a CEO something related to a footnote in one of his financial statements. That is preparation, and preparation is key. Preparation can drive your credibility and your confidence.

This reminded me of a quote that I heard recently from Janet Yellen, the economist and former chair of the US Federal Reserve. I heard her on a podcast, and she said that she attributed to much of her success to ensuring that she was always the most prepared person in the room. 

Okay. Moving on to the third and last point that I wanna reinforce, Deborah shared this lovely acronym that I hope you’ll remember, and I know I’m gonna remember this.

I’m gonna start writing this on the top of all my meeting agendas, it’s wait. Why am I talking? This is about being self-aware. Got it. Well, that’s it. Thank you again to Deborah Rosati for sharing her generous advice, and that’s it. Thanks again to Deborah Rosati for sharing her generous advice to help all of us, especially women, get on boards.

And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode. I hope you’ll share it with a friend, and please subscribe or follow us on YouTube if you’re not subscribed already. Talk soon.

The post Women: Get on BOARD with Deborah Rosati (ep.194) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

What if using AI could make you a better communicator without making you sound like a robot? In this episode, executive communication coach Dr. Andrea Wojnicki sits down with AI strategist Jonathan Mast to reveal a 4-step framework that helps leaders use AI effectively without losing their voice or their edge.

From writing difficult emails to brainstorming, summarizing data, or prepping keynotes, Jonathan’s framework empowers you to collaborate with AI like a pro. You’ll learn how to prompt like a strategist, refine your outputs, and lead by example in this new era of communication technology.

Copy & Paste Jonathan’s AI Perfect Prompting framework:

💻Website: TalkAboutTalk.com

💻Website: https://whitebeardstrategies.com

Buy Back Your Time by Dan Martell: https://amzn.to/45atGkM

Jonathan Mast: Now is not a time to punt this to somebody else. It’s time for you to embrace what you wanted to do upfront and change people’s lives by leveraging AI to amplify your skill and experience. 

Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: What do you do when everyone around you is suddenly talking about AI? Like it’s magic? Here’s what you do. You slow down, you ask better questions, and ideally, you call on someone like Jonathan Mast.

Jonathan’s been leading conversations around digital strategy and AI long before the headlines caught up. He doesn’t deal in hype. He helps leaders understand how to actually use AI without losing trust, authority, or human connection. In this episode, you’ll learn why tone, clarity, and credibility matter even more in this age of AI.

How to avoid sounding like a robot. Yes. Even when you’re using one, and you’re gonna learn the exact playbook that smart communicators. Yes, like me, are running right now to stay ahead without selling out. 

Let’s do this. Let’s Talk about Talk in case we haven’t met yet. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where we coach ambitious executives to stand out with confidence and credibility. I also write a newsletter where I share my coaching tips. You can subscribe to this newsletter by clicking on the link in the episode description.

Alright, let me introduce Jonathan Mast. Jonathan stands at the forefront of AI prompting mastery. Empowering us to leverage artificial intelligence for measurable growth. Jonathan has emerged as a leading authority on practical AI implementation with an engaged audience of nearly half a million AI enthusiasts and entrepreneurs.

His perfect prompting framework, which you’re about to learn, teaches businesses how to effectively communicate with AI prompts through ChatGPT Claude and Gemini to achieve exceptional results. As the founder of White Beard Strategies, Jonathan focuses on helping executives and businesses leverage AI to save time, increase profits, improve their communication, and deliver more value to their business.

His philosophy emphasizes AI as a tool that amplifies our skill and our experience, rather than replacing human creativity and judgment. His international speaking engagements across North America, Asia, and Australia are packed with practical takeaways. And now. We have him here. Let’s do this. 

Thank you so much, Jonathan, for being here today to talk to me and the Talk about Talk listeners about how to use AI to improve our communication.

JM: I’m excited to be here. I think it’s a tremendous tool and I’m sure we’ll get into some interesting discussions. 

AW: Me too. Me too. So let’s start really broad. We all know that AI is big in the news, and it’s big at work. It’s big with everything we’re doing these days. Can you share with us some ways that executives, in particular, are using AI to improve their communication? I realize this is a very broad question, but I thought we’d start broad. 

JM: It’s a good thing, and I think there’s probably two or three key ways that I’m seeing that is really working, especially for executives. First is as executives, I’ve never yet met an executive who like SOPs, we all understand they’re important, but we hate them because it means we need to take time to get the stuff that’s up here or the thoughts, and at least in a lot of cases, maybe even add more than what’s up here. Because we’ve got ideas worth 30,000, 50,000 feet, but coming back into 500 feet for our staff, it’s painful. And ChatGPT and I I’ll use ChatGPT to say AI. I mean, it’s really any AI model can literally take and within a couple of minutes, grab the information that’s in our heads. Not literally, I mean, we have to share it, but you can get that information, and it can then create literally step-by-step SOPs for our team. And what I found and what so many of my students have found, especially the executives, is that we have these great ideas, but we’re often, and I’m gonna say it myself, we’re almost scared to go to that 500-foot view because we’re really good at 30 to 50,000 feet.

We’re not so good when we get down below because a lot of us don’t do well with some of that minutia. Some do, but a lot of us don’t. And so,we do better with vision and things like that, and ChatGPT is just amazing at increasing that communication and helping. The other part that I find is real important as executives, it always seems we’re the ones that are tasked with the difficult emails.

The ones that are really important, whether it be from a legal perspective or a compliance perspective, or whatever we’re dealing with, sometimes just to make sure that we don’t tick off the customer while we tell them where they need to go, and that can be difficult. And AI, again, does such a tremendous job of that because I can get an email from you, Andrea, and I can say, all right, I need to set these boundaries. I need to do this, and I need to be nice about it, and I don’t have to be nice. AI will do that for me, and then I can just edit it. And that really difficult email that I probably put off for three days, while my assistant was like, Jonathan, you gotta do that email. You gotta do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’m not, ’cause I’m really not sure what to say.

I can now get done in just moments with AI. So those are two areas that I think are really impactful for executives in particular. 

AW: Amazing. So SOPs and difficult emails. So as you were describing this, I was thinking pretty much all of us have been using AI even before it was really on our radar in terms of, you know, using it as a thesaurus and for grammar check and spell check and all of those things. And now it seems like everyone that I know is using it for brainstorming, and many people are using it for writing, but I think there’s a huge range in terms of the adoption. What would you say is pretty typical right now? Can you share with us any statistics or observations, or trends that you’ve noticed in terms of adoption?

JM: So the most recent statistics I saw, and of course stats, as we know can lie, and they can be made to say anything we want, but we’re indicating people that what they called regular users of AI, and they define that as using it on a daily basis. What they didn’t do is define whether that was one prompt a day or whether that was a hundred prompts a day.

But the numbers that I saw on that were just shy of 18% of businesses are regular users. Given how broad that is, that means to me that most people still are not using AI effectively. Most executives are not using AI effectively, and certainly, our teams are probably not using AI effectively, and that presents a massive opportunity for us because of how the time savings and the value add that can come when AI is leveraged properly.

AW: Yeah, so I did not look at the statistics before I opened up this interview. I am shocked that it’s so low. So I’ve been using by that standard AI for over a year. I remember I bought a subscription to ChatGPT, and I put it as like when I open my browser, that’s what it goes to, ’cause that’s gonna prompt remind me to use it.

I’m looking at my screen right now, and I can see it in the corner of my screen. And then I just had a lot of fun, and I even on LinkedIn, I would see examples of prompts that people are using, and I would try it, and I’d be amazed at what it could do. And I started experimenting. So. 

So, maybe you can share with us what some of the other low-hanging fruit is.

So if you’re one of the, you’re not included in the 18%, right? So you’re in the majority, you’re not using it, or you’re not using it regularly. What’s the low-hanging fruit in addition to the SOPs, the standard operating procedures, and the difficult emails? I love that point. Make that email that you thought was so difficult to write a lot easier with AI. What’s some of the other low-hanging fruit, in particularly in a business context? 

JM: Well, you mentioned brainstorming. I think that’s one that AI does a tremendous job at, and not enough executives are using it for. You know, sometimes it’s difficult because either we don’t have the people around us to talk to, or sometimes we’re just not comfortable sharing some of our thoughts, because let’s face it, sometimes we want to nuke everything, and that’s probably not what we should be doing.

AI gives us essentially a safe place to go do that and to have those conversations, and it’s really effective. So I think that’s one. The other area that I think how I recommend people get started, and especially executives, is take a book like Dan Martel’s, Buy Back Your Time. One of the things Dan talks about in the book is go through your day and literally for every 15 minutes, just write a one to two words about what you were doing.

Do that for every day of the week, but at the end of every day by yourself, or sit down with your assistant and highlight everything that energized you that made you go. Yeah, man, I love that highlighted in green. Everything that made you go, I wish my assistant didn’t even have to deal with this. Take a pink highlighter. I’d say red, but they don’t really have any that I’ve seen. And take a pink highlighter and highlight that pink. Then use AI to help you get rid of all the pink stuff, or to help you leverage all the pink stuff. Every person I know, executive or not, has got items that they, we just do because we’re in the habit of them, or we somehow are in the, even though we know better, it’s just, it’s easier if we do it.

We know that’s not the case, but we get stuck in that. Take those pink items and start there. Those are things we don’t wanna be doing anyway. That means we’re probably not doing a very good job, and if we are doing, we’re procrastinating. And that means as an executive, we’re wasting really valuable resources, telling our assistants, I’ll get to it tomorrow. I’ll get to it tomorrow. I’m guilty. I’m not pointing any fingers. I’m guilty of that. My assistant will say, Jonathan, what about this? I’ll get to it tomorrow. She’s now learned that when I have difficult emails to write, guess what? We have a custom GPT that’s trained on Jonathan’s tone and style. She writes it, and she sends it to me, and she’s like, can we just send it this way?

Guess what? That’s easy. That’s. I like easy. We do the same thing for a lot of the other things that I need to do. One of the things that I need to do, a lot of executives need to do, we need to review reports. Most of us don’t exactly get that’s not, that’s not our jam. That’s not what gets us all excited.

But imagine being able to take those reports or have our admin take those reports and literally have ChatGPT in a predefined way analyze that and give us a summary. And now I can get that. Every Friday, for example, I get a report from my team, and it’s done in audio format. It’s all created by AI. And when I do my 45-minute walk in the morning, guess what? I listen to the report. What that means is one, I’m walking anyway, so I need something to do. In other words, just walking ’cause my ADD kicks in and I can’t just walk. Two, I actually get to review data that I might not otherwise review on a regular basis, ’cause the report would come through and maybe I’m the only one, but sometimes those reports didn’t get read.

Sometimes those emails would get archived. I’ll get to it later if I need it. Now I’m getting them in a way that’s digestible. It’s easy. We tweak it so it fits my tone, what I wanna listen, the key points that I want information on, and then if I’ve got questions, it’s really easy. I can ask my team, Hey, help clarify this, or what happened here? What’s going on? We had a 20% drop. Doesn’t seem like we should have. Are you sure that’s right? All those things are really quick follow-ups. And we’re getting ’em done faster as opposed to delaying them and missing them, and possibly if there is a problem causing more damage, ’cause we missed something.

AW: Okay. So, to your point about people not reading the reports, this is an aside, but I have to tell you, I know they don’t. ‘Cause I remember years ago I wrote a detailed summary of a day-long meeting that we had at an offsite, and I asked everyone to read it, and embedded in the document I wrote, if you’re reading this, email me now, and I’m gonna take you out for a very fancy lunch. No one emailed me. 

JM: I was gonna say no. You didn’t buy any lunches, did you ? 

AW: No. I bought zero lunches. Fascinating. So I love that.

I wanna get real here for a minute. Imagine that you are a senior executive, or you’re coaching a senior executive on how to create and then deliver a really important presentation. So it could be your annual general meeting report to shareholders. It’s a big presentation. Maybe it’s a keynote, right? Related to your thought leadership. How can you use AI along the way to help you optimize your preparation and your delivery for this high-stakes presentation? 

JM: If you’re an executive, the first thing I recommend you do with AI after you play with it once or twice is go, and you’ve probably got multiple personality tests you’ve taken. If not, go up to 16 personalities. Take their Myers-Briggs assessment and take the personality test, takes you 10 to 15 minutes. One. If you haven’t done it, I’ll be shocked, but if you haven’t, the insights will be amazing. Take that and give that to. ChatGPT or whatever model you’ve got, because we need to first train the model on who we are, our tone, and our style.

And this fits directly in with your question because if I’m preparing an important presentation, it need to know who I am and how I would say things. Because if I just let AI do it, it might sound like AI and not sound like Jonathan, and that’s not good for my brand or anything else. So step one, train it on how you sound, it’s as easy as I said, giving us some personality results. 

Secondarily, make sure you talk about the audience that you’re presenting to and what’s gonna be important to them. Generally, the good news is we tend to know both of those things. We tend to know going in, here’s my audience, here’s what I am. Then explain what you’re trying to do very simply, and probably the most important part when you’re explaining it. End your prompt, which is what we call it when you’re asking ChatGPT what to do. End it with this question. Ask me any questions you have. In other words, you’re literally going to be asking the AI to now interview you, to ask you the questions it needs in order to gather the information to answer your question.

When you do that, your life gets easier because you’re already running at a million miles an hour. You don’t want to have to pause and think through it. Now, you literally, and I do this a lot of times when I’m walking using the voice mode, I literally say, ask me any questions you’ve got, and it will then I’ll hear it through my headset, and it’ll go, okay, tell me about this. I’ll respond, ask me another question, respond. Now I’m taking that downtime, so to speak, my walk time, turning that into something productive, and I’m giving real, relevant information to the AI model so that it can put that together.

Keep in mind it’s been trained on the best presentation techniques, the best ways to reach your audience. It knows a lot of their pain points already. Now I can help you put together that the other part and the last part have it start by creating an outline first, and then filling out the outline as multiple prompts, multiple questions.

Don’t expect it to be a slot machine where you’re gonna pull the handle once you’re gonna give it one prompt, and you’re gonna get the perfect keynote. It won’t happen. You need to do it step by step, and when you do that, you can take that prep time. That was again the thing, you were dreading the thing you were trying to figure out how to get done before you got home tonight, and you can have it done in maybe an hour or two instead of hours or days.

AW: I love your slot machine metaphor. That’s beautiful because I think that’s how people, a lot of people think about it. There’s these lists that we see as lead magnets all over the internet. Click here, give me your email address, and I’ll send you 50 AI prompts or a hundred AI prompts. And it’s like, I just need to find the right prompt and it’ll solve all of my problems.

So this, Jonathan, is actually why I invited you to be on this podcast, because I was listening to you and you said, forget the AI prompts. I have a framewor,k and I was like, what? So you don’t know this about me, but I am not a fan of memorized or rehearsed anything. Self-introductions, anything. It’s all about having a free yeah, high five, high five. It’s all about having a framework that you customize. I would love it if you shared with the audience your prompting framework, which I’m just gonna say I started using literally the same day that I heard you say it. And it is magical. 

JM: Well, thank you. First of all, like you, I don’t like memorizing things; it’s just not how my brain functions. I can memorize frameworks though, because they make sense to me, because it’s a recipe that I can follow and.. 

AW: And you can customize it, right? Sorry to interrupt you, but you can 

JM: Exactly. No, you’re, you’re absolutely right. I don’t, I’m not tied in. I like probably most executives, I don’t like you to tell me what I can’t do.

Well, this is about you can do not what you can’t do, and therefore it works. Four simple steps. The first is tell the AI model. Doesn’t matter what one you’re using, what type of expert it is. So let’s just say, hypothetically, that we’re gonna write a press release. I’m gonna start off by telling it you are an expert at writing press releases.

Not very complicated, but as you can imagine, I’ve now narrowed that scope right down to where I need to go. Step number two: give it background information. Andrea, if you and I are working on a press release together and you are the expert, and I walk up to your desk and I go, Hey Andrea, I need a press release.

And you go, great, I can do that. Then I turn around and walk away, and you go, but I got a couple questions, and I don’t give you any context. What’s the likelihood that press release is gonna be relevant? It’s not. No matter how brilliant you are, if I don’t give you the context. ’cause my wife reminds me she can’t read my brain.

Neither can AI, and you need to give it context. Now that doesn’t have to be a lot, but give it the context you have. Then step three, this is what normally we just prompt with. So we told that the expert, we gave it context. Now we ask it our question. That’s where most people start and stop. But we’ve got one more really important step, and if you only remember this one, just ask your question.

Do step four. In other words, steps three and four, the two most important. Step four is you end your prompt with this simple statement. Ask me any questions you have. That’s it. Because see, the AI is not sentient and it, we can’t read our minds, but it has been trained on the proper format and framework on how to do about everything, and that includes press releases or anything else.

So when it reads through its framework and goes, Jonathan doesn’t know a framework ’cause he doesn’t know how to write press releases, but he missed these four things. And when I say, ask me any questions you have, it will then do so. If I don’t add that though, it’s been taught to make assumptions, and it will just fill in the blanks assuming the data that it thinks is correct.

And we all know what happens when we assume we resemble the southbound end of a northbound mule. So AI does the same thing. 

AW: Oh, I’m just saying this again. I really wanna underscore to the listeners that it’s magical. So, for example. Immediately after you shared this. I’m trying to think of maybe what I used it for. Maybe I was asking it to edit an article that I’d written for Ink Magazine. So I would say use your business and communication skills expertise. I actually found that if you give it two different types of expertise, I think it kind of levels up. It’s like a multiplier. And then I gave it the background.

I’ve written this article. I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I say to it, I am going to upload a draft, who the target market is. I give it all the information. Here’s the word length I want, here are my three main points that I wanna make, blah, blah, blah. And then I say, before I upload the draft. What clarifying questions do you have that will optimize your response to me?

And the other thing that I would always add is I would specify, because I’ve noticed a couple times when I didn’t specify that the AI would give me a list when I wanted a paragraph or vice versa. It would give me a paragraph when I wanted a list. 

JM: And that can be a fifth part of it, if you want, as to how you want it to respond to you, give it the format. Absolutely. 

AW: Okay, so if there’s one takeaway, you know, I think it’s the framework generally, and then specifically your question about clarifying questions. Do you have that will optimize the output? What, I mean, this framework might help answer this question, but what are some of the most common mistakes that people make when they’re using AI?

JM: The first one’s probably gonna surprise people. They overcomplicate it. AI is not as complicated as we wanna think it is. It can be, but there’s no reason to overcomplicate it. So even with the perfect prompt framework we just went over, that’s by the way, what I call that four steps.

If you go through that and you spend too much time overthinking, wow. What type of expert should it be? I’m really not sure. I want to pick the right one. Just get close. You don’t have, I loved what you said. You’re an expert at these two things. Okay, great. And they can be anything that you want. Then don’t overcomplicate it.

The other thing, and we talked briefly about this, is many, many people treat AI like a slot machine, and they assume it’s one question, one answer, one question. No. It’s a conversation. Just as you and I would have a conversation if we were collaborating on a project, AI is the same way. You’re gonna do something, you’re gonna get a response back that’s close.

You’re gonna go, you know what? I forgot to tell you this. I forgot to tell you I wanted a paragraph and not as a table. Don’t start over, just have a conversation and go to the next step or go, well, that’s an interesting perspective. What would happen if we changed this variable and have a conversation?

Many of my chats are 20 or 30 back-and-forth questions with AI as we get to that point to refine. Now, at some points we get there and I’m like, never mind. You’re just not understanding me. And like any relationship that happens occasionally. And then the good news is that nobody ever gets mad when I say that and I just start over. But that happens only occasionally, like you said. So the two biggest, again, overcomplicating and treating AI, like it’s a one question, one answer. We’re hoping to hit the jackpot. Both of those, I think, are the two mistakes. 

AW: It’s like an iterative tool, like your analogy of two partners working together to solve a problem, right? And they’re. Building on each other, other’s ideas? So recently, I’m gonna say in the last couple months, I’ve noticed in the output that I’m getting from ChatGPT, there are some common kind of markers. There’s often a solid line if I ask for a list. So if I’m creating a podcast where I’m writing an article or something, I will independently brainstorm what I think should be there.

And then I wanna make sure I’m not missing anything obvious. So I will separately ask ChatGPT, give me a list of 10 things that qualify here, and then I just usually I go, yeah, I’ve got that. I got that. Okay, I’m fine. Right? That’s kind of probably the most common thing that I use it for, but I’ve noticed when I ask it for these lists that there’s these solid lines that are just bizarre that.

And then I noticed the rocket emoji, and then I saw people. I noticed a woman that I work with who I respect very much. Obviously, she’s using ChatGPT, ’cause a lot of her work has the rocket ship emoji in it. And then I started reading on LinkedIn. I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. I started reading people’s posts saying, you know what’s with all the rocket ship emojis? Stop using them.

And if you’re gonna use ChatGPT or other AI, at least edit out the markers. And then the most recent one is the em dash. So,  I actually asked my ChatGPT to stop putting those solid lines to stop using the rocket ship to stop using the em dash. It’s not very obedient. It keeps using them. And then I will actually say, I asked you to stop doing that, and it says, Oh, sorry, thank you for the reminder. 

JM: I’m glad I’m not the only one. Yes, you’re absolutely correct in that it is not perfect. I will give you a hint in order to do have it do a better job of doing that. Begin or end your prompt because it’s important where you put that and start with, and it sounds really weird, they’re called delimiters, and this is gonna sound over complicated, but it will help three quotes in a row and then a square bracket.

Whatever do not do is closed, square bracket, and three more quotes. It’s like taking a yellow highlighter to that section of your prompt and saying, don’t forget this. Not perfect. I have a 17-year-old, and it’s like a 17-year-old who goes, I forgot that was highlighted. It won’t be perfect, but it will help out with that.

The other hint, that can be hugely valuable when you copy and paste out of Chat GPT, and yes, I do it too, and then I often edit afterwards. When you’re pasting it wherever you’re going, instead of doing a command V or what control V, do a command shift V or control shift V, and it will paste without the formatting.

And a lot of times it’s faster to just to go back in and add a quick heading in, and it will remove those lines that now we’ll still keep the em dashes or the en dashes. You’ll still have those, but it’ll get rid of all the emojis. It’ll get rid of all the extra lines, and then you just simply need to go and tell it find the em dashes. Em dashes are weird in that if my wife was trained as a journalist and so she’s like, I’ve been using em dashes forever. 

AW: Me too. I love them. My agency was like, we love them. I said, you need to stop. 

JM: Yeah. Now all of a sudden people get angry ’cause they’re like, you used an em dash. And I’m like, well, that was actually proper. Well, yes, but that means you used ChatGPT. Well, no, I actually been using those for most of my career. Now all of a sudde,n that’s a hot button for those people that decide to care. 

AW: It’s such a shame. The em dash is a beautiful thing. I’m fine with losing the solid lines. I’m fine with losing the rocket ship emoji. Are there any other markers, Jonathan, that you’ve noticed recently? 

JM: There are a number of what they call non-space markers, and it’s kind of like. People are like, Oh, this is some sinister conspiracy theory. No, if you’ve ever copied from Microsoft Word to another thing, you’ve gotten weird characters somewhere because of the formatting.

They’re simply formatting characters that are used in markdown, which is the language that AI tools write in. It’s not a big deal, but again, that’s another thing where you’re command shift or control shift V will remove those non-space characters. And when they say non-space characters, it literally means it’s a character in the code that doesn’t show up when you paste it anywhere. So that’s a good way to get rid of that. 

AW: So I wanna ask you at this point, if you had kinda one other than your brilliant framework. Okay, ’cause that brilliant framework is probably your answer to this question. Other than that, is there one thing that you want people to know about AI? It could be a misperception or something that’s way easier than they thought. Like if there’s one thing that you could share with the audience that will inspire them and help them use AI really productively in their jobs. 

JM: I  believe AI is like electricity. And when I say that, I mean that AI is on the path to become so ubiquitous in our lives that we’re not even realizing we’re using it when it comes to so many other things in life.

We think about them, but we don’t think about the electricity until we lose it. Then all of a sudden we realize everything that we were using it for, and pretty much for most of us, it’s not like we wake up and we decide to use electricity. We’re just using it by living by everything that we do, by everything that’s on in our residences and everything else, and AI’s headed down that path and why I wanna share that, especially for executives.

I believe it’s fundamentally your responsibility to your business and to your team to teach them how to use it in a way that provides value to the organization and to your clients. Because if you don’t, your competition will. It’s not a matter of if, it’s only a matter of when, because it didn’t take very long for the world to go electricity rocks, and everybody started using it. AI is gonna be even faster, and the time is now. It’s not too late, but the time is now to start leveraging it as a tool. 

The example I always give, and it’s probably not perfect for your audience, but if you could just imagine you’re a roofer for just a moment. If you are putting shingles on a roof, you don’t wanna do it the old-fashioned way and carry up a bucket of nails and carry up a hammer and one by one, knock those in. It takes too much time. Instead, you wanna be up there with a pneumatic hammer that literally every time you tap it to the roof, it puts a nail in because it’s much faster.

And nobody in their right mind would not use a pneumatic hammer just because they weren’t familiar with it, and they liked their hammer because it wouldn’t be productive yet. That’s the same thing that so many of us are telling ourselves. Well, I’m just not ready for it, or I’m just not. It’s time. It’s here.

It doesn’t, it’s not scary, it’s not sentient, it’s not gonna take over the world. We can still unplug it, but it’s time to embrace it. 

AW: Jonathan, I have to say I love your metaphors. I lost track of how many amazing metaphors you’ve used. All right. I’m gonna move on now to asking you the three rapid-fire questions that I ask every guest.

I know you’re gonna be familiar with the first one based on your comment about Myers-Briggs. The question is, are you an introvert or an extrovert, and how does that affect your communication? 

JM: I am both depending on the situation. I am an ENTP, and I am very comfortable acting as an extrovert, but I need time to recharg,e and most of that time is spent on my own.

AW: So you may be an ambivert. 

JM: Yeah. Might be. I’m not familiar with that term. Yes. 

AW: Yes. Most people are actually in the middle. And it’s ambivert. I’m an ENTJ. So we’re close. Second question. What are your communication pet peeves? 

JM: So my biggest one is it’s never been worse. I hear people say that all the time to make a point. I’m a student of history. I’ve studied a lot. Everything we’re experiencing today, we’ve experienced before; how we’re experiencing the manner in which, you know, AI is brand new. We’ve not gone through AI before, but we’ve had the printing press, we’ve had the steam engine, we’ve had the internal combustion engine, we’ve had the internet, we’ve had PCs.

We’ve went through tectonic technological shifts before, and all the naysayers were wrong, and everybody who. Embraced it came out on the far end smelling like a rose because they found new opportunities, and that’s definitely the one that just drives me crazy. It’s never been worse. 

AW: So the extremely negative, the superlative that’s negative, especially related to AI. 

JM: Related to anything. I mean, whether it’s the news that’s going off or it’s AI, I mean, I, again, I hear it fairly frequently, and it’s just one of those things I just want to scream and go, No, it’s not true. What about, you know, we didn’t live in the and in during the Black Plague. It could have been worse, trust me. 

AW: Okay, let’s go to question number three. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending to people lately? 

JM: Uh, there’s a book that I recommend regularly because I do think it appeals to starting to use AI, and I think we talked about it earlier, and that was Dan Martel’s Buyback Your Time, especially as an executive, and I think most of us know this, but sometimes we have to be reminded.

There are things we don’t need to do in our lives because we can pay people to do them, and it’s more productive. It’s not a bad thing. I grew up in an environment where you were trained, you always did everything yourself. That’s the way it was, and I had a hard time learning that some executives didn’t. Some do, but if you’re in that understanding, how to buy back your time is so incredibly important. 

AW: Jonathan, I listened to that book last summer, and I had the same reaction. This is gold. It’s absolutely gold. So, Jonathan, do you have anything else that you wanna leave the audience with in terms of suggestions, tips, or advice in their adoption of and use of AI?

JM: Well, I just wanna encourage everybody as leaders, which I think almost all of us in the audience would identify with. We have a responsibility of those that we lead. And I wanna encourage you to not just on the surface, go, okay, this AI thing is something I’ll have somebody else do. It is a way to absolutely amplify your skill and experience.

And most of us became leaders because we wanted to do good in the world. We wanted to add value, we wanted to change things. If that’s you, I just wanna encourage you that I believe that AI, I’m 56, just for relevancy. It is the single biggest tech to technological shift that we’ve seen in the last 50 to a hundred years, maybe ever in history.

And now is not a time to punt this to somebody else. It’s time for you to embrace what you wanted to do upfront and change people’s lives by leveraging AI to amplify your skill and experience. 

AW: I love it. Leaders are role models. People are watching you. People will adopt the habits that you adopt. So leaders have a responsibility to model their use of AI and to adopt it.

And there is no better time than today. Thank you very much for sharing your time and your expertise with me and the Talk About Talk listeners. Thank you, Jonathan. 

JM: Thank you, and pleasure.

AW: I hope you’re feeling as inspired as I am now about using AI, and I’m thinking I’m gonna diverge from my usual practice of sharing three key learnings with you. For this episode only, I have one key learning that I promise will make a huge difference in your productivity. It’s this. 

Copy and paste Jonathan’s perfect prompting framework, which you can find in the show notes. Paste it somewhere where you can easily access it. I pasted it to the top of my to-do list. Then you can easily copy and paste it right into AI whenever you have an AI query. As a reminder, Jonathan’s perfect prompting framework has four points: 

One, tell the AI what specific area of expertise you want it to focus on. Maybe economics or social media, or something else. Two, provide context who you are, what you need, and relevant details. Three, ask the question; four, then ask AI to ask you any questions that will help it to optimize its output. And that’s it .

Again, you can simply copy this AI prompting framework directly from the show notes in this episode. Now, if you wanna go to the next level, you can add two more points to the framework. These are two points that I find very helpful. Think of them as bonus points. The first is to tell the AI what kind of output you’re looking for.

It might be a list, an email draft, a matrix, an image. Whatever, tell it exactly what format you’re looking for. The second one is to remind it what you don’t want. For me I do not want em dashes, and I do not want rocket ship emojis. Otherwise, I find that if I don’t constantly remind ChatGPT, what I don’t want, it keeps forgetting.

I really hope this prompting framework helps you as much as it’s helped me. If you know anyone who might find this episode helpful, please share, and please subscribe to the Talk About Talk podcast if you’re not already. Thanks again so much to Jonathan for sharing his framework and all of his insights with us, and thank you for listening to talk about Talk.

Talk soon.

The post AI PROMPTING Secrets You’ve Never Heard | Jonathan Mast (ep.193) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Think networking means being transactional or self-promotional? Think again. Shelly Lombard, former Wall Street analyst and founder of Schmooze, shares her playbook for building a strategic network without feeling fake. You’ll learn how to reconnect with weak ties, build visibility on LinkedIn, and follow up in a way that feels natural, not awkward.

Ready to speak up, stand out, and lead with gravitas? Join my 6-week Women’s Personal Branding Masterclass, starting Oct 15. Register by Aug. 15 and save $250 with code EARLYBIRDFALL at TalkAboutTalk.com.

 Shelly Lombard: Reach out to those weak ties. Say every week, three people, somebody I worked with 10 years ago, I’m just gonna ping them. Hey, thought of you. That kind of thing. It’s only transactional when you’re not keeping in touch with people. 

Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk: If you think networking is just schmoozing at cocktail parties or collecting LinkedIn connections, you’re gonna wanna hear what my guest has to say. Shelly Lombard spent 30 years on Wall Street making high-stakes investment calls and building a career that, frankly, most people would envy. However, by her own admission, she did some things wrong.

In this conversation that you’re about to hear, Shelly opens up about the missed relationships that could have completely changed the trajectory of her career and how she finally learned to stop believing that just doing the good work would earn her a seat at the table. If you’ve ever hesitated to reach out or worried about bothering someone, then this episode will change the way you think.

You’re gonna get practical tips to grow your network without feeling pushy or fake or self-promotional, and you’ll walk away knowing exactly what you need to do to build real relationships that open real doors. If this is your first time here, I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. This is Talk about Talk, where I coach ambitious executives like you to communicate with confidence and credibility.

I also write an email newsletter that you can subscribe to at the link below if you’re on YouTube. Or in the show notes if you’re listening on any other podcast platform. 

So now, without further ado, let me introduce Shelly Lombard, and then we’ll jump right into our conversation. And at the end, as always, I’m gonna summarize with three key learnings that I wanna reinforce with you.

I met Shelly Lombard on LinkedIn, believe it or not—and let me tell you, Shelly is a force for good.

She worked on Wall Street for over three decades, and early in her career, she was one of only a handful of women specializing in investing in distressed companies. In the early 2000s, she became one of the most quoted automotive analysts on Wall Street, frequently appearing in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and CNBC.

After her Wall Street career, she began serving on corporate boards, including the board of Bed Bath & Beyond, among others. Shelly recently launched Schmooze, an initiative that supports and encourages professional women to build strong business networks and close the gap between where they are in their careers—and where they want to be, whether that’s a board seat, the C-suite, or a career pivot.

Schmooze offers mini masterclasses in networking—and yes, I’ve personally led one of them. Let me tell you, Shelly has created something really special. She also hosts Schmooze events that serve as an alternative to the golf outings and sporting events that men have traditionally used to build business relationships.

Thank you so much, Shelly, for being here today to talk with me and the Talk about Talk listeners about networking.

SL:  I am thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 

AW: I’m so excited about having the opportunity to talk to you in person. It’s virtual, but we’re one-on-one here. I really admire what you’re doing on LinkedIn.

Before I pressed record, I was sharing with Shelly how much I enjoy reading her posts on LinkedIn. She shows personality, and you can tell that what she’s doing brings her joy, and then it, in turn, brings the rest of us joy. In fact, last night I read one of her posts to my teenage daughter, and I made her laugh.

Shelly, thank you for making LinkedIn a better place. 

SL: Yeah, and teenagers are tough too, so she, yeah, I’m impressed because she laughed. That made me feel good, ’cause teenagers are tough. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 

AW: Toughest critics. Toughest critics. Yeah. Okay, so I just read your introduction, but I want to ask you, after spending over three decades in Wall Street. How did networking specifically help you succeed in such a competitive, intense environment? 

SL: Yeah, so you know what? What I will say is that I was not as successful as I could have been. I was not intentional about networking. I wasn’t strategic about it. I could have been much more successful if I was. I had a good run, but I would’ve been more successful. My career would’ve gone maybe in different directions, et cetera. I approached networking. I was very happenstance, half ass, oh, I like you. Let’s have lunch. But there was no really, oh, let me think through. I probably should get to know this person.

I did belong to a small group of women. At that time, there were only a handful of women doing what I was doing on Wall Street. Women on Wall Street were there. There weren’t as many of us. But what I was doing, which was investing in distressed companies, there were even fewer. So we formed a little group and we would get together for dinner, every other month or something like that.

But that was about the extent of it. And I think one reason I wasn’t more intentional is that I’m an introvert. People don’t believe that, but I am definitely an introvert, and I’m shy. So that’s different from being an introvert. I’m an introvert, and I’m shy. And then the second reason is I didn’t know any better.

Like my parents were teachers, and it was expected that you would go to college and then get a good job, and then, hopefully, stay there for your entire career. But nobody told me anything about networking or forming relationships. They didn’t know that wasn’t their world, and I didn’t figure it out on my own.

So I felt like I missed out on opportunities that I didn’t even know I was missing. I’ll tell you a quick story. Two guys I should have kept in touch with, and a lot of the people I worked with over three decades did really well on Wall Street, and I didn’t really; I wasn’t strategic enough to stay in touch with any of them.

One was a guy named Chad, our bank merged with another bank. He was my boss’s boss. Great guy. And he, as part of the merger, lost his job. Great guy. He landed on his feet somewhere else. I should have kept in touch with him, but I didn’t. Another guy who after the merger, replaced this guy, Chad, his name was Jimmy.

And Jimmy was my boss’s boss. Like he was way up there. And so when the two banks merged. They had a meeting for everybody who was vice president and above, and I think I might’ve been the only person of color in the room, certainly the only woman of color in the room. But as a result, Jimmy knew me, and this was years ago.

I’m sure it would be different these days, maybe not so much different. But as a result, the good thing was Jimmy knew who I was, so I would get on the elevator and he might be on there already, be like, Shelly, hey. And then he liked FaceTime. So he was one of those people who liked you to be at your desk for long hours on trading floors.

People usually left six o’clock, but I might be there like seven o’clock, and he would walk around just to see who was still working. He liked that and he would always talk to me, Hey Shelly, how you doing? And I would just say, Hey, and go back to work. I never engaged with him. I never tried to develop a relationship.

So like I said, I’m shy. I’m an introvert, and I just didn’t know any better, and I didn’t figure out it out on my own. And had he obviously was reaching out to me. Had I taken him up on that, I might still be sitting at, it’s now JP Morgan, but I might still be sitting there and it would’ve made a world of difference in my career.

AW: So hindsight’s 2020. You identified Shelly the one thing that you did do right was you connected with some women and you had dinners with them, every second month, which is great. But would you say it’s true, maybe then that you started Schmooze because of some regrets that you had about how you managed your career, specifically in terms of networking?

And if so, I see you nodding your hair, your head there. What gaps are you aiming to fill for women in business through Schmooze? 

SL: Yeah. So you’re absolutely dead on, right? I started Schmooze to help other women avoid the mistakes that I made. And so a turning point for me was working from home. So, toward the latter part of my career, I worked for a small boutique that researched investments.

And, fidelity was a client, Goldman Sachs was a client, and they let us work from home. And so working from home was great for my life and for managing my kids, and I didn’t have to commute into Manhattan, et cetera. But when I reared my head from that job, when that job ended right around the time of the financial crisis, a little bit after that, I realized I had let my contacts go dormant.

Like people would call me and say, Hey, meet me in Manhattan for a drink. And I’m like, girl, I’m. Sitting in my pajamas, with a baseball cap on, and I’m getting ready to take my son to soccer. The second thing, inflection point was when I left Wall Street and I started serving on corporate boards, and once I did, I learned that 80% of corporate board rules are filled through relationships.

One woman said to me, when somebody leaves, when one guy leaves a corporate board, the other guys in the room look around at each other and they go, okay, who do we know? And so if you are not known to them, if you don’t have a relationship with them, they obviously go to a guy in their network. So those things hit if I didn’t realize it before, those two things, working from home and corporate boards. hammer the point home. 

So what I’m trying to do with schmooze is one, encourage women to do it and to understand how important it is. And also to give them tools. So helping them to learn what I call networking hacks, like curiosity. So one of the things that kept me from inviting Chad or Jimmy out for a drink or a cup of coffee was like, I’m like, okay, now I gotta talk to him.

What do I talk to him about? And curiosity is a hack. I didn’t have to be charming. I didn’t have to be like knowledgeable. I  thought I had to be all these things to have a conversation with them if I had engaged with Jimmy over what about what the bank was doing, ’cause he was a real deal junkie. He loved deals and being a big bank and a big kahuna in the market.

If I had started saying to him, Hey, so I hear we’re working on a deal for Procter and Gamble or something like that. What’s going on with that? He would’ve talked to me for hours. So I didn’t have to be smart. I didn’t have to come across as charming and knowledgeable about the market.

Curiosity would’ve helped me to build a relationship with him, and we’ve actually had a schmooze class on networking internally and how you can use curiosity to build your internal network, and it would’ve made all the difference with Jimmy. 

AW: I love that word, curiosity, because I think it’s very, instructive. It’s very actionable for people, ’cause we’ve all heard that if we wanna engage in a great conversation, we need to ask questions. But actually labeling that as curiosity, what can I be curious about with this person? I think that’s brilliant. So you’ve labeled, I guess now the first hack, and you spoke about your story about it being particularly difficult to network when you were working from home.

Do you have any hacks for the listeners out there, including myself who want to network when they’re mostly working online at home? 

SL: Yeah. So I think you have to be, it’s, it was great for, my life wasn’t so great for my network. Visibility on LinkedIn makes all the difference in the world. So really lean into those tech tools.

People talk about being zoomed out and too much Zoom, et cetera. But that was one of my issues back when I was working from home, is that Zoom didn’t exist. LinkedIn was a baby. So using those tools like Zoom to have coffees, LinkedIn, one of the things I intended to talk about today, which I’ve learned really makes a difference in social media, has made it possible, is being visible.

And so what I would say to people working from home is be intentional about it. I wasn’t so people I was running into, so when I worked at the place where I was working from home, we had a PR person. So we our revenue model was subscriptions. So other firms did trades, and they got commissions.

Our firm was strictly subscription-based, so people like Goldman Sachs at Fidelity, and hedge funds had subscriptions. So we had a PR person who would get us. In the paper. And I would, I was always quoted in the New York Times, the journal, I covered the auto industry. I was quoted in the auto news.

And so people knew who I was, but I never followed up. Like I never, kind of took advantage of that. And so what I would say is working from home visibility is an important thing, and whether that’s being visible inside your company or outside your company, I was visible, but I’m, I’m happy to talk later about following up and the importance of following up.

SL: I left there, that company, and lots of people knew my name, but I hadn’t followed up and built relationships with any of them. So I think working from home, you need to be more intentional. About relationship building, and you also need to be more intentional about being visible both internally and externally.

AW: Oh gosh. Even in those quick anecdotes that you shared and stories of regrets and things that you were doing well, things that were going on. There’s so many hacks to, I think in the conclusion here, I’m gonna be listing what the hacks are. So there’s networking inside your organization, and then also being conscious of networking inside and outside of your organization.

There’s the point, I think, that was subtly made. By you here, or maybe implicitly made, which is when something happens, like a press release, or you attend an event that could become a catalyst for you to share on social media, right? So nowadays, if you were interviewed, you could show the video or a photo of it, or even just talk about it right on social media to reinforce.

So use these little events or big events as a catalyst, a topic for you to share with your audience. I’m wondering, just to back up for a minute, do you think this is different? For women versus men, Shelly. 

SL: Yeah. And remind me to talk more about visibility ’cause that’s another hack that I make sure I wanna talk about you.

You started talking about it being visible, but yeah, absolutely. So I think it’s two things. With women, it’s a mindset. So we are trained to be good girls and pleasers, and we’re not comfortable being transactional because it implies that you’re not nice. I remember when I first started, so I got into this group before this group of women, who invested in distressed companies, existed.

I remember being in a deal with another woman, and I reached out to her, Lisa, and I reached out to her and I said, Hey, you wanna have lunch? And then I felt Ooh, I felt like I didn’t want think that I wanted something. And so I remember saying, I just wanted to, I, I just thought, we should have lunch.

And she was like, it’s okay. So I think women have a tougher time being transactional, and men don’t, they’ll take you to a Knicks game, they’ll take you to a golf game, and then they’re not. woo. If you reach out to them three months later, and hey, you know what I noticed, so and can you introduce me?

I think also too, in terms of mindset, women think our work speaks for us, and it’s, it does not, your boss doesn’t always know what you’re doing. People in other companies that do what you do definitely don’t know what you’re doing. People outside your company definitely don’t know. So I think with women, it’s, we are afraid to be transactional and ask for stuff, and we’re also thinking, oh, my work speaks for itself. I think the other thing is time. So my sister has a thing, all roads lead to mom, all roads lead to mom. You are the emotional support person. You are the person who finds the summer camps very often. Maybe it’s different, in different, situations, different families.

But I know in my family, my, my husband was involved. He would ferry people of soccer, et cetera. But I was a person who thought, oh, it’s time for Lindsay to get braces. Oh, you know what, Andrew needs to get his physical now so he can be ready for soccer in the fall. Yeah. Oh, Lindsay needs an SAT tutor.

Yeah. I have never sat next to a man on a trading floor, and trading floors are open, so you don’t have an office and everybody’s, you can hear everybody’s conversation. I’ve never sat next to a man on a trading floor and heard him make a phone call about a birthday party. A clown, a pony? What time? What time does the bouncy house need to get there?

Do I need extra insurance? That’s totally left to mom, and I had a little nanny at some point, but there’s certain things you can’t delegate. like finding a tutor or recognizing that the kid needs a tutor. So I didn’t have time to play golf, didn’t have time to get good enough at it to use it as a networking tool.

So I think the two differences for women are mindset. And then also time, because when all roads lead to you, I think I read something a couple of years ago, it said, moms don’t do everything, but they make sure everything gets done. So even if it’s you saying to the babysitter, oh, can you do X, Y, and Z?

A lot of times, that falls on us. And so I think women have to approach networking, be more intentional about it. It may not just happen. And I think we also have to be more intentional about how we think about it. 

AW: Yeah. So when I asked the question at first, Shelly, I thought you were gonna say, yeah, because it is harder for women because there are fewer of us which, which is your experience, and I believe it is in many industries, still the same. And you didn’t even go near that. You’re talking about the transactional nature of men’s relationships with each other about how women are assuming that their hard work is gonna speak for itself.

And then this all roads lead back to mom. So here’s the thing, if you’re aware of these things, then it can almost become a superpower because you can work to un to undo them or to at least mitigate their negative impact. I just wanna share in terms of this transactional relationship, that’s a different way of saying something that I had a conversation with, actually, a classmate of mine back when I was a student.

And she was talking about how, she first introduced this concept to me. She said, at work, men are friendly and women are friends. And I was like, oh. And that’s a good thing and a bad thing, ’cause we should be friends. We should be thinking long term. Yeah. But also we shouldn’t be taking things so per, when we’re friends, we’re taking things personal. Men aren’t taking things personally. It is. And that fits beautifully, I think, with your transaction points. So I just wanted to highlight that. 

SL: Yeah, that’s actually a great point. That’s a great point. 

AW: Yeah, I love it too. It has so many implications, and if you don’t know what it means, if you haven’t thought about it that way, maybe it’s less relevant for you. But people right away, I find go, oh, and then suddenly you’ll see it everywhere. and the whole thing about women putting their head down and doing the work, and then not being recognized or compensated for it because they’re not speaking for their work. There’s this beautiful quote.

You must speak for your work. Your work doesn’t speak for itself. And furthermore, if you’re a leader, it’s not just about you doing the work; it’s about getting the work done, which means you can delegate. 

SL: Yeah. Two things I’d like to add to what you said is one, think about networking, not just networking with other women, but networking with men, and so I belong to a host of women’s groups, but I think that, look, most of the people on boards are men.

So if I wanna get a corporate board seat, I gotta be one of the names that comes up when the men in the group say, okay, who do we know? ’cause we have a, we need an audit chair. And the other thing that I would say is that I think that we often think of relationships as being transactional because we are notaking the time to invest in people, in, in other words that it’s not just, and, I guess the thing is, or invest in ourselves and I’ll step back and make this point. Women in terms of feeling it’s transactional or it’s manipulative. That’s the word that I was looking for.

So it’s transactional when you deal with someone else, but if you don’t let your work speak for itself and you’re speaking for it, you’re being manipulative. And what I say to people. It’s only manipulative if you’re not doing the work. You know what I mean? We resent the people who would try to get ahead on their smile alone.

They’re charming, they manage up, and then they’re not really doing anything. They’re sleeping in their cubicle, or they’re talking on the phone, or whatever. But if you are doing the work, then it’s not, it’s not manipulative. And so you should. not feel like, oh, I gotta let my work speak for itself, because if you’re actually doing the work, take pride in speaking about it.

And so those are the two things that you said that kind of made me think about you need to network with men and women. And two, speaking up for your work is not a bad thing. You’re not being manipulative. And when you’re actually doing the work, 

AW: I heard a man quoted on the Tim Ferriss podcast, and he said. When you’re more junior in your career? I actually, this first part of it I added because I believe when you’re more junior in your career, there are people looking over your shoulder to see that you’re doing the work, and then you get promoted once you hit mid-career. This is, this was his point. If you don’t speak for your work, you might as well have not done it. Ooh, drop the mic. 

SL: That’s a drop the mic drop. Yes. Because nobody knows. Absolutely. Nobody knows. That’s a great point. 

AW: Yeah. I love that one. So it’s inspiring. 

Let’s go back to the visibility point, though. You were talking about how it’s about relationships, and it’s also about visibility. So do you have any other hacks for how, how do you personally, or how do you coach the folks that are part of Schmooze to boost their invisibility? It boosts their visibility, whether it be online again or in person. 

SL: So I guess I learned along the way that visibility is a relationship hack. It’s a networking hack. It’s a networking multiplier. And so that’s a way that technology has made networking easier. And what I would say to people is, you need to be visible. Post on LinkedIn, and I’m gonna do a whole class on what to post on LinkedIn and tips for posting, and what to say, and all of that kind of stuff.

But when you do that, you attract a network to you. So people who I don’t know will click and follow me. Click and ask to connect with me. And I don’t even need to reach out because you know my posting. And if you’re not posting, maybe you send professional updates to people who you know. So it’s just email.

So instead of, oh, I’m not comfortable posting on LinkedIn, but I have 50 people that I work with or used to work with, that I’m just gonna send ’em an email, B, C, everybody. And hey, just wanted to let you know what I was up to. And that helps you attract a network because maybe they will say, Oh, that’s interesting. Let me let Sally know what you’re doing these days. The other thing is you help people remember you. And so somebody who had, I posted something and he had a better comment than my post was, he said, networking is about being remembered when it counts. So it’s one thing to have all of these contacts and connections on LinkedIn, but if something comes up that you would be interested in, but that person who’s in your network, but they don’t even remember you, then that’s a problem. So visibility is one thing that LinkedIn and email has made easier. It’s easier for you to be seen and be remembered. I am gonna, do a class.

I was actually, we were saying before we started recording that, before I was a banker, I was a writer. So, LinkedIn, writing for LinkedIn, and writing for my newsletters comes a little bit easier for me. But there’s certainly tips I’ve learned along the way that can help you be visible. And like I said, people whine about too much Zoom, but one, it’s how I met you. Yeah. It enabled me to connect with people all around the country and the world. Yeah. I just interviewed two women who have a company called Power Suit. They’re based in New Zealand. I’m publishing that interview on a Friday, and they talked about networking with the women in their group.

The kinds of things that they may be struggling with, et cetera. So the ability to do coffee on Zoom would have changed my life. When I was working from home, it just wasn’t available. But, and so now I won’t say people don’t have any excuse, but because as people are still, especially women, press for time, et cetera, but you do have many more tools than you had 10 years ago.

AW: It’s not that there’s no excuse, but maybe there’s less excuse. So, back to your point, I love this. I wanna underscore this point about being remembered at the right moment when it counts. This goes back to something that you and I have talked about in the past, right? Which is establishing and reinforcing your brand.

So, Shelly, you have expertise in networking now, and you said in the automotive industry, in the financial and banking industries. So, how on LinkedIn, if someone comes up with this list of five things that they wanna make sure people know about them, do you have any tips of what to share on LinkedIn?

SL: Yeah, so what I would say is it depends on your goal. So I don’t post a lot about corporate boards, unless it’s networking your way into a corporate board. But I don’t post a lot on being on corporate boards or that kind of stuff, ’cause right now I won’t say I’m not looking for a board seat. If one drops in my lap, that’d be great, but I what I would suggest is pick a lane.

Like you can’t be known for five or six different things. You are known for communications, and then you expand out from that. I’m known for networking and so people lane, that helps you make your posts consistent and people will remember you. Like people always say to me, oh, we need somebody to teach on networking.

And I have to say, let me step back and say I am not a thought leader or an expert on networking. I have learned from people like you, I’ve learned from the almost a hundred women I’ve interviewed for my schmooze newsletter, and I’ve detected some patterns and said, okay, this makes sense. This is what works.

And so I approach LinkedIn. You know what, let me tap into the experts, ’cause I’m not an expert at this. And so that’s how I pro, approached it. And now I’m starting like curiosity was something multiple women, when I interviewed them, they mentioned it. Curiosity. Oh. I said, why is this person take you under their wing?

And you, they became your sponsor. Oh, I was curious about what was going on in the company and how we were making money, and this pivot we were gonna do. So after seeing curiosity pop up various places. I was like, okay, that’s a relationship, that’s a networking hack. Particularly internal. So what I would say is I am, I’m not a thought leader on networking, but there’s certain themes that I have learned and that I have distilled from my conversations with women who were much better at it than I was. And those are the kinds of things that I want to share with other women. 

AW: So, Shelly, I think you are describing something that I actually just shared, in a bootcamp that a couple hours ago I was teaching in a bootcamp on LinkedIn, and I asked everyone in the bootcamp to rate themselves on a score of zero to 10 on their LinkedIn profile and then also on their activity on LinkedIn.

And they were all way below five, like zero outta 10, three outta 10, whatever. And most of ’em said they avoid it. They don’t really know what to say. And your point here is that the thought leadership doesn’t have to come from you. You can share your interest, expertise, and passion in something by sharing other people’s perspectives, right?

So I said the first thing I want you to do is go to the home page on LinkedIn, start scrolling through your feed. Find an article or a post that’s interesting, and then repost it with comments. Not just repost it, and right repost it with a comment that’s I absolutely endorse this, and I would add this one other point, or I absolutely endorse this, particularly this one thing. And then you are implicitly sharing your expertise. So, Shelly, with those 100 women who you’ve interviewed, you are sharing your expertise through them. I think it’s a brilliant strategy 

SL: And that’s a great point. I. Didn’t. That’s how Schmooze started. I hadn’t done the networking, didn’t know how to do it, so I started interviewing women, and so I gathered things.

It also was a great way to increase my network, ’cause the women I interviewed were oh, okay. and so now many of them, in my network, so to speak. And yeah, I launched mine. From, I won’t say a place of weakness, but I guess a place of curiosity. I didn’t do this well, and so here are some women who have done it well.

Here are the themes that I’ve found. And so that’s how Schmooze started is just a LinkedIn newsletter. But absolutely, I would pick a lan,e and I think targeting it to networking or whatever works for you was one of the keys. if I’m just introducing, or I’m just interviewing, managing women who’ve made it, so to speak.

They could be talking about anything, sponsor, mentors, anything. But if you boil it down to one thing, and now I’m known for networking. Now, some things coming out of that, or networking to get a board role. And then, one of our popular classes was being an advisor to a startup, which is a way to expand your network.

So there are things that come off of that. But what I would say to people, similar to you, scroll through, see what people are talking about, even if you don’t have an expertise, like I’m not a thought leader, I don’t think. Now I’m starting to see themes. So I’m like, okay, lemme put this out there.

Visibility networking hack. Let me put this out there. And so I picked a lane, and I just started posting what other women were saying about it, about that lane, which was networking. And that really resonated with people. And I’m not. There’s a lot about women in management going on out here, but I picked Elaine and then was very consistent about posting on that.

As you said, even if it was the thoughts of other people, because it was like, wow, she did it right. I didn’t let me share what she did. 

AW: Yeah. Shelly, you have convictions, you have opinions, you do have thoughts on strategic networking that would definitely qualify you as being a thought leader. I truly think as soon as you start teaching something, and this is actually another hack, right?

As soon as you start teaching something, you are demonstrating leadership in that area. And this is something that I sometimes coach, especially women who are struggling with demonstrating leadership, right? They’re, they’ve been told, you’re ready for the promotion, you just need to demonstrate leadership.

And they’re like, how do I do that? How do I do that? And I said, one thing is find something that you can coach and mentor, and teach people about, and then you’ll be seen as a leader. And I think that’s what’s, that’s what you’re doing. I admire what you’re doing so much Shelly. 

Before we get into the three rapid-fire questions I wanna ask you this, maybe perhaps overwhelming question, which is.

If someone who’s listening here is ready to level up their networking strategy this year, or in the short term, what is the first thing, or one of the most important thing,s that you would tell them to do starting today? 

SL: Okay. So I think the most important thing is schedule a time to do it. Don’t expect that it’s gonna happen, like just, organically. So maybe 4:00 PM on Friday when you’re starting to wind down and look forward to the weekend, or maybe on a Sunday afternoon where the kids are doing something else, or you are on the sideline of your child’s soccer game and you’re chatting with the other parents, you can steal a minute and do a few things, connect with a few people.

So, schedule a time to do it. Step some small goals. So we just recently, that’s why recently started a schmooze accountability group where people can meet and say, okay, these are three things I wanna get done this week. So set out some very achievable small goals every week that you can meet.

And a couple other things I wanna make sure to mention, weak ties. I think it’s LinkedIn and Harvard did research on where most people find jobs, and they find them through people they don’t know as well. They don’t find them through close ties. I’m not gonna find them through my friend Sharon, who I went to business school with ad we are really close because we have the same network, but it’s people that they don’t know well. So I would start, if I’m gonna set aside the time and start, do some small goals, reach out to those weak ties, say every week, three people, somebody I worked with 10 years ago, who I haven’t talked to in a while, I’m just gonna ping them.

Hey, thought of you. That kind of thing. Thinking of you, it’s only transactional when you’re not keeping in touch with people. Another thing you may wanna do is send a professional update and then schedule a coffee catch-up. Hey, just wanted to let you know this is what I’m up to now. Let’s grab a Zoom coffee and catch up.

And then I would also say go to at least one in-person event per month. If you can . Read Andrea’s article about how to nail your self-introduction, and people tell me, read that first because that will equip you for going to a meetup. But it doesn’t have to be in your industry or in your functional area.

It doesn’t have to be the National Association of Accountants and your accountant or it doesn’t have to be people in AI and you’re in AI. I often get invited to things about women and wealth. And it’s like I did the Wall Street thing. I’m not interested, but I go anywhere. Go anyway. Because in addition to strategy, being a part of networking, serendipity is as well.

When you meet people, you meet their network. In addition to that introducing people to other people in your network is really helpful, so you can help other people. So I’m going to something, somebody just invited me to something, women in their money, or something like that. And so I’m gonna go because I don’t know who I’m gonna meet.

So it may not fit into my strategy, but I may, there may be serendipity, like I may stumble across somebody and happens to me all the time, who like, oh, didn’t know you were gonna be here. Or, oh, even though you do that, I don’t do that. But you know what, this is how we could work together. So strategy and serendipity.

And can I just say one thing? So, just to recap, schedule a time to do it. Set some small goals. Don’t forget about weak ties. It’s only transactional if you’re not, keeping in touch with people. It feels less transactional if you are not reaching out to ’em once every 10 years. So send some thinking of you, thought of you, LinkedIn messages or e-mails, maybe a professional update, and then go to one in-person event per month.

Can I say one other thing before we go to our rapid-fire questions? Yes. Yes. Follow up. One of our most popular Schmooze courses is the Fortune is in the follow-up. After you meet someone, LinkedIn or we introduce each other to each other on LinkedIn and you had a coffee chat or you met ’em in person, do a, oh, it was such so great to meet you, 24 or 48 hours after then Comment on their posts, re-share their posts like you said, oh, so and so said this. I thought it was so insightful. Let me re-share it with some comments. And then we recently had a session with Susan McPherson, who wrote the book, The Lost Art of Connecting. And she talked about approaching it. And this also takes it out of the realm of being transactional or being like a bad person or manipulative person.

The whole thing is, how can I help? Even if the person isn’t active on LinkedIn, you can forward articles, information about conferences. It doesn’t have to be work-related. If you and small talk is helpful because you’re not connecting with a title, you’re connecting with a person. So you know, if they’ve said they’re from Chicago, send ’em something on the White Sox.

If they said they’re planning a trip to New Orleans, I’m from New Orleans, you can send ’em an org article on the 10 best restaurants in New Orleans. So your follow-up doesn’t have to be work-related. One huge follow-up hack is introducing people to in your network to each other. So in addition to saying, how can I help?

Saying to them, would it be helpful if I introduce you to so and and one point that Susan makes in her book is that you make people feel seen. It’s obvious if you introduce people to each other, you notice them, you notice, made a note of what was important to them, and you try to be helpful so they feel seen.

And that has really been helpful to me in terms of following up, introducing people in your network to each other. So even though I don’t need anything from you, I don’t, we are not even doing the same thing, but I know somebody who is doing the same thing at you as you, let me introduce you, and that’s where the serendipity comes in. And also the follow-up. 

AW: I love it. You know what you made me think when you were saying that Shelly is in the same way that if you don’t talk about your work, you might as well have not have done it. If you don’t follow up with someone after you make a new connection, you might as well have not met them.

SL: Oh my goodness. That is amazing. Yes, absolutely. I learned more sitting on you. Yeah, that those three insights are worth the price of that mission. It is those, you said a couple of things that resonated with me. Fabulous. Absolutely. 

AW: Shelly, back at you. I got, I’m gonna say this again, reading your posts on LinkedIn, always make me smile and you make me think. You do make me think, right? So, thank you, and let’s move on to the five rapid-fire questions. So the first one, I already know the first part of the answer because you already said it, but maybe not the second part. The question is, are you an extrovert or an introvert? And how does that affect your communication? 

SL: I’m definitely an introvert, as I said, and I’m shy, which is different from being an introvert. People always say that to me. I’m my best one-on-one, like in a podcast. I’m best when I’m speaking to thousands of people, ’cause it’s not, I’m at my most self-conscious when I am talking to a small group, like 10 people. But I definitely am an introvert. An introvert, an extrovert is more about how you, recharge yourself.

And I recharge myself by being alone. And that has had a huge impact on my networking. I have to be much more conscious. But, somebody said this to me. One of the women I interviewed for Schmooze she said, introverts are not introverted in their area of expertise. And so I’m less of an introvert now than I was when I worked on Wall Street because I’m all into schmooze and I love what I’m talking about, and I love what I’m doing, which is why I don’t come across as an introvert now. And I probably did on Wall Street ’cause I was much, I wasn’t in my zone, and now I’m in my zone. 

AW: Oh yes. That’s a great way of putting it. I can see you’re in your zone. Okay, second question. What are your communication pet peeves, things that really annoy you? 

SL: You know what? I don’t think I have one. I don’t think I have one. I was a communications grad on a major undergrad, and I am a voracious reader. Yeah, I don’t think I have a communications pet peeve. I can’t think of one. 

AW: So you’re the second person recently that I’ve interviewed that said that, and I have to say, I admire the fact that you don’t get annoyed.

SL: Yeah, I really don’t. I’ll read somebody’s LinkedIn post and I’ve said, oh, it would’ve been more effective if she did this, and this. But it doesn’t annoy me. and again, I think it comes from being in my zone. ’cause now I’m open to pretty much anything. I’m like, this is interesting.

That’s interesting. I’m curious about that. So I don’t really, the only thing I think that bothers me is the lack of communication. So, my husband is never on LinkedIn, and I’m like, dude, he’s getting ready to retire. I’m like, if you want to do something different, you gotta put yourself out there. And my pet peeve would probably only be the lack of communication.

Like my husband’s not on any social media at all. And I’m like, if you are trying to start a new chapter in your life, pick up your LinkedIn messages. You know what I mean? And I think that. is more of oh, frustration to me than, some stumbling in communication. 

AW: Okay. third and last rapid fire question, is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending to other people lately?

SL: Yeah, so a couple, and now that I have been on yours, I will be recommending this ’cause I know you’re a communication expert, which so many people need. There’s a book called F*** Being Humble, and she came and talked to the Schmooze community. It’s Stefanie Sword Williams, and it’s about self-promotion and how self-promotion is not a dirty word.

Another one is The Lost Art of Connecting, and that’s Susan McPherson. She did a, also did a Schmooze session, probably a few weeks ago. So those two, one of the ones that I like and it has to do, more about building a business, is falling in love with the problem, not the solution. So in other words.

And it can relate to helping people. It’s about, you know what, let me see what they need. If you approach networking from, how can I help you? Would it be helpful if I connected you to this? You’re falling in love with the person’s problem and offering them a solution. And so that book was more about building a business, but I absolutely loved it. And I go back to it over and over again with my business. Am I falling in love with my solution rather than is this solution helpful to people who are members of Schmooze? 

AW: Okay. I’m gonna put links to those books in the show notes. I’m gonna ask you one last question, Shelly. Is there anything, any suggestions or advice you wanna leave with the talk about, talk listeners related to? I guess succeeding in their networking. 

SL: I would just say, even though I’m shy. Social media has made, look, even an introvert can hit click, and so the introverts among us, social media is a gift because you really don’t have to be out there at 10 events a month. You really just have to focus on being visible on LinkedIn.

Now, it’s very helpful if you’re out there visible in person as well, but even I can hit click. And so that’s one of the reasons that one of the things that’s helped me to get into my zone. And so what I would say to people is just get out there, and if I can do it, and in addition to be shy and being shy and introvert, I’m also a little bit socially awkward.

I would rather have my nose buried in a book somewhere than to be doing anything. That’s my a book in the beach is like my ultimate, that’s how I recharge myself. But if I can get out here and do it and learn to enjoy it, I think other people can as well. I’m about as far, I’m not totally on the introvert spectrum, but I’m certainly like on the introvert, introverted, more introverted than extroverted, and even introverts can do this.

And I guess one last thing. If somebody commented on one of my posts, if you’re not doing this, you’re gambling with your career. You gotta, you have to, you can’t just put your head down and work if you’re not doing this. There is going to come a point, like it came with me, where I needed a network and I didn’t have one.

I got laid off four times on Wall Street. The first three times people found me, there was no LinkedIn. They called people who knew me, and they sought me out and made me job offers the fourth time after working from home for eight years. My phone did not ring. And so you wanna get on this before you need it.

You wanna dig the well before you need the water. And so not only can introverts do it, and I think the, a large, the majority of the world identifies as being an introvert, whether that’s true or not, but you have to do it because if you don’t do it, there’s gonna come a time when you’re gonna need that network.

This world is changing so rapidly and so fast. The people who work in the federal government who thought they had a job for life turns out they didn’t have a job for life. It’s really critical, and you can get a lot of joy out. It don’t think of it as building contacts.

Think of it as relationships. And so not only will you enjoy meeting other people, but build that network before you need it ‘cause at some point, if you don’t need it, your kid don’t need it, your spouse will need it. Do it. 

AW: Wonderful advice. Shelly, I wanna say thank you. It was so enjoyable to hang out with you here and to have this conversation one-on-one. I hope we can do it again. Thank you. 

SL: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

AW: Isn’t Shelly fantastic? I encourage you to follow Shelly on LinkedIn if you’re not following her already. And now I’m gonna share three key learnings that I wanna reinforce for you.

First, pick a lane. And be visible. Shelly’s suggestion is that you decide on your niche, the thing that you want to be known for, then stay in your lane.

This is about consistency and then visibility. So get out there to live events, write articles, give presentations, and online share your insights on social media. If you’re not comfortable creating your own thought leadership, then you can repost others with your comments. So that’s the first point. Pick a lane and be visible.

The second point that I wanna reinforce is the difference between men and women that Shelly outlined in terms of how they network. She mentioned three things. Men have no issue with being transactional. Meanwhile, many women are focused on creating relationships and friendships. Of course, relationships and friendships are good, but sometimes we need to be reminded that it’s okay to be transactional. Shelly highlighted how women often assume that their work speaks for itself. As we said, this can be dangerous. Oftentimes, if you don’t speak for your work, you might as well have not done it. The third point about gender differences is that, as Shelly says.

All roads lead to mom. This can make networking even more challenging. I hope this one is changing. So these gender differences in networking are the second thing that I wanted to reinforce with you.

The third point is that the fortune is in the follow-up. Shelly highlighted a few times how important it is to close the loop with new contacts and also to stay fresh in the minds of your existing network.

This relates back to the point about visibility. She talked about using small and big events. As a catalyst to follow up with your network, meeting new people. Connect on LinkedIn and close the loop. Read a great article. Share it with your comments. Interviewed for a podcast or an article. Share this with your network.

That’s it for the three key learnings. One, pick a lane and be visible. Two gender differences in networking, and three, the fortune is in the follow-up. Got it. Again, I encourage you to connect with Shelly on LinkedIn. As I mentioned, Shelly and her work with Schmooze. Make LinkedIn a better place. And while you’re there, connect with me too.

Thanks for listening and talk soon.

The post The #1 NETWORKING Mistake Smart Professionals Make—and How to Fix It with Shelly Lombard (ep.192) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

What is your body saying when you’re not speaking, and how could it be holding you back? In this episode, world-renowned body language expert Mark Bowden explains how nonverbal signals impact trust, credibility, and executive presence. Discover how our brains instinctively scan for safety cues, and why understanding body language is critical for anyone who leads, presents, or communicates under pressure.

“What instantly comes to your mind when you see me cross my arms?”

Andrea Wojnicki – Talk About Talk:

Mark Bowden:

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AW: Mark Bowden is a world-renowned body language expert, and he’s been on my radar for a while. When we finally connected for this interview, we discovered that we live and work near each other. What a coincidence! We both share a passion for helping others communicate more effectively.

But I have to say: Mark blew my mind.

This conversation took twists and turns I didn’t see coming. So buckle up. You’re about to learn a ton about body language, perception, credibility, and so much more.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk Podcast!

In this episode, you’ll hear my conversation with body language expert, keynote speaker, and bestselling author Mark Bowden. You’ll learn the one key thing you need to focus on to instantly improve your body language, and your communication overall. You’ll also gain insight into how our motivations, including our primal survival instincts, shape our perceptions of others, especially when it comes to interpreting body language. And finally, we’ll bust a few body language myths that you’ve probably accepted as truth…until now.

If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. I’m so glad you’re here. And if you’re new to Talk About Talk, welcome! Please subscribe to the podcast on your platform of choice (Apple, Spotify, or YouTube), where you can actually see me and Mark in action. Subscribing ensures you never miss an episode and that you receive ongoing communication coaching from me every two weeks.

We cover topics like:

You can also find free learning resources, coaching services, and more on the Talk About Talk website: talkabouttalk.com.

First, I’ll introduce Mark, then we’ll dive into our interview. Afterward, I’ll summarize with three key learnings that I hope you’ll take away. You don’t need to take notes. Just keep doing whatever you’re doing: walking, driving, lounging on the couch. I’ve got you covered. And of course, you can always reference the show notes in your podcast app for more details.

Mark Bowden is a globally recognized authority on body language. He’s been named the No. 1 Body Language Professional in the world multiple times by Global Gurus.

His unique GesturePlane™ system of nonverbal communication empowers audiences to use body language to stand out, build trust, and gain credibility.

Mark is the founder of TRUTHPLANE®, a communication training company that serves major organizations including Zoom, Shopify, Real Madrid, Toyota, the U.S. Army, and NATO. He’s also worked with G7 prime ministers and business leaders worldwide.

He’s a bestselling author, a popular instructor in Canada’s top-ranked EMBA program at the Kellogg-Schulich School of Business, and the current President of the National Communication Coach Association of Canada.

You might’ve seen Mark on the Dr. Phil Show, CNN, CBS, or Global News, or watched his TEDx talk, “The Importance of Being In-Authentic,” which has reached tens of millions of viewers. He’s also a co-host of the YouTube hit The Behavior Panel, which has garnered more than 75 million views.

Thank you so much for being here today, Mark, to talk with me, and the Talk About Talk listeners, about body language.

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Well, we could come up with all kinds of explanations that aren’t really true. But the reality is, we form (and continue to form) judgments based mostly on how people behave in front of us. What their face is doing. What their body is doing. What their hands are doing. How they’re dressed. The environment they’re in.

We judge partly by vocal tone, but we barely judge each other on what’s actually said. In fact, we often just make up what we think someone said based on how they behaved. So if you change, or more importantly, choose, your behaviors, you stand a much better chance of shaping how someone judges you. That influences how they interpret what you’ve said and even what they imagine you said.

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My clients say the same thing. As soon as we talk about body language, especially when they’re on stage or leading a meeting, it’s like, “Where do I look? What do I do with my hands?” So what should executives prioritize when it comes to body language and being perceived as credible leaders?

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When you’re under pressure and still use open-palm gestures at navel height, you create what I call a “cascade effect.” It triggers certain behaviors in your audience, and those behaviors influence the rest of the room.

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But it’s not just the hands. The navel area represents the body’s center of gravity. It reveals your true intention. People say, “Watch their feet.” No, watch where their center of gravity is going. If the torso doesn’t move, the feet don’t matter.

This area here (your stomach, your navel) is incredibly vulnerable. We haven’t evolved to have ribs protecting it all the way down. Why? Because our ancestors needed to be able to duck, run, and twist quickly to survive. If we had a rigid ribcage extending all the way down, our agility would be compromised.

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That’s why I created a simple three-point scan:

Now I’ll say “Open palms at navel height.” What do you think about that framework?

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That’s why I try to get clients down to just one behavior. When they’re under pressure, dealing with a big presentation or unexpected scrutiny, they can’t manage everything. So I say, “Just do the one thing that will create a cascade effect.”

Forget what you’re feeling. I don’t care if you’re scared or confident. It’s not about you, it’s about the audience. We’re trying to change their minds. That’s the hardest thing in the world to do.

So I tell clients: open-palm gestures at navel height. They’ll ask, “Should I make eye contact?” Don’t worry, it will fall into place.

This moment is extraordinary. You’re in an extraordinary situation. Ordinary behaviors, what feels natural or “authentic,” won’t cut it. Authenticity is about survival. It’s designed to keep you where you are, safe and small. But you’re not trying to be small, you’re leading. You need extraordinary behaviors for an extraordinary moment. And yes, it will feel odd. Do it anyway. Do it on purpose.

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We’d have to travel to meet. That’s time and money. We’d have to find a venue. That’s even more risk, logistics, insurance, and a physical audience. There’s a reason insurers require waivers for live events, it’s risky.

Now compare that to this. What’s the risk assessment here?

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If you met me in person, you’d think, “Wow, Mark’s amazing!” Why? Because you would’ve invested time and energy. Your brain would say, “This must be valuable, why else would I have spent all this effort?”

So here in this low-cost environment, I need to raise the perceived value. I do that by making this conversation feel more alive. More animated. I need to give your brain the sense of social risk, like we’re breathing the same air, even though we’re not.

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But humans are visual. Some people claim they’re more auditory or tactile, but look at how much brainpower is dedicated to vision. Evolution figured out that sight is our best survival tool. So most of our attention goes to what people are doing, not how they sound.

Now, the sound part of the brain doesn’t like to make stuff up. Unlike vision, where your brain fills in the blanks, hearing is more binary. That’s why you’ll crash your car if you talk on a phone while driving. The low audio quality forces your brain to work harder on decoding sound, stealing resources from vision. Your peripheral vision narrows, and you don’t see danger coming.

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So when I’m on a video call or a podcast, I’m really trying to animate the frame. I’ve got 30 frames per second. If I’m not using them, I may as well send a still image. But I’m not doing that. I’m sending a moving image, one that wakes up your brain.

I’ll often break the frame slightly to get your attention. You’ll notice I use baton gestures, too. These gestures match the rhythm of my speech. They help you not only hear the cadence, but also see it.

That helps the Broca’s area of your brain (where speech processing happens) get more confident that it’s predicting me correctly. Because really, you don’t hear what I’m saying; you predict it. Then based on whether your prediction matches, you feel like, “Oh, I understand Mark!”

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But the moment those guesses stop working, your brain says, “I don’t get it.” First, it’ll assume the world is wrong, or that other people are wrong. If that doesn’t hold, the brain gets discouraged and says, “I don’t understand the universe anymore.” That’s because it’s not working from knowledge, it’s operating from predictions.

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Our brains are pattern recognition machines. They spot patterns, and they like consistency. But when that pattern gets disrupted, the brain wakes up and re-evaluates.

If the new pattern is subtle or consistent, the brain keeps its judgment. But when it meets the “min spec” (the minimum specification needed to change its mind) it does. It flips.

So, when you’re trying to change a first impression, the key is understanding what that minimum trigger is. What’s the hair-trigger that shifts their perception?

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Now, why do people automatically assume crossed arms mean someone’s “closed off”? Why make that judgment?

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That’s why open palm gestures work so well. They give your audience enough information to make a safe, positive assumption. Crossed arms do the opposite.

So when I cross my arms, your brain reassesses. It goes: “I don’t know what that means. It’s a big enough shift to warrant re-evaluation, but I don’t have enough info.” So, instinctively, the brain defaults to negative: “Mark is bored, angry, or defiant.”

But maybe I’m just thinking. Or I’m cold. Or I’m trying to reduce neural load to help with decision-making.

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The more information you provide, the better people behave. Their judgments are more accurate, and they’re less likely to spiral into fear or doubt.

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If someone crosses their arms and you do the same? Now you’re both closed off. You lean back, they lean back, you spiral downward. Instead, only mirror the behaviors you want to see more of.

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Here’s another take: All body language is either a response to power or a display of power.

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Every movement you make is about power. Recognizing this helps you decode behavior more effectively.

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People will tell you: Our brains love answering hierarchical, evaluative questions. It’s hardwired.

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Okay. Ready for rapid-fire?

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But ask me about food? Pet peeves galore!

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Well, that was a fascinating conversation, wasn’t it?

I didn’t expect we’d end up discussing our evolutionary path from ground-dwelling mammals to upright hominids on the African plains, but I’m so glad we did. That’s why I love bringing expert guests on the podcast. We get to learn together.

Now, let me reinforce the three key takeaways from my conversation with Mark Bowden:

Mark strongly emphasized this single technique. If you want to appear credible, trustworthy, and influential, use open palm gestures at navel height. This is your center of gravity. It’s also a vulnerable area. By exposing it, you signal trust and reduce perceived risk.

We instinctively scan our environment for threats, and we default to negative interpretations when information is missing. As communicators, and especially as leaders, we must recognize this and over-communicate clarity and safety, both verbally and nonverbally.

First, crossed arms don’t always mean defensiveness. They can indicate thoughtfulness, comfort, or even that you’re cold. Second, don’t mirror others’ body language indiscriminately. Only mirror behaviors that you want to reinforce. Otherwise, you risk reinforcing negativity or detachment.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating or review on your podcast app, and don’t forget to hit subscribe so you can continue improving your communication skills with Talk About Talk.

Thanks again to Mark Bowden.

And thank YOU for listening.

Talk soon!

The post BODY LANGUAGE, a Matter of Survival – with Expert Mark Bowden (ep.191) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Feeling like a fraud? You’re not alone. In this episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and Kim Meninger explore the roots of imposter syndrome and share actionable strategies to move through it with courage, clarity, and impact. Learn how to lead more inclusive meetings, build authentic confidence, and reframe self-promotion as a meaningful contribution.

Self-promotion, when approached strategically, is a service…to others and to ourselves. Nobody is hired just to fill headcount; they’re brought on because of their unique combination of skills, strengths, and capabilities. If you don’t share what you know and what you can do, it becomes harder for others to leverage your strengths. That creates inefficiencies and redundancies.

Thinking of self-promotion as an act of service allows us to reframe what might otherwise feel selfish or boastful. Instead of asking, “How can I tell everyone how great I am?” consider asking, “How can I help?”

Meet my new friend, Kim Meninger. Kim is an expert on imposter syndrome. In this episode, you’re going to hear our conversation (yes, conversation, not interview) about this powerful and often misunderstood topic. We take turns asking questions, building on each other’s ideas, and sharing practical strategies.

You’ll learn new mindsets and actionable tactics to help you combat imposter syndrome and communicate with confidence. These are tools you can start using right away. Ready?

Welcome to Ep.190 of the Talk About Talk Podcast

Yes, we’re getting close to 200 episodes, and you know there’s going to be a party! If you’re not already subscribed, please hit that follow button on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you’re listening. You can also watch full episodes on YouTube.

In case we haven’t met, I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, but please, call me Andrea. I’m the founder of Talk About Talk, where I serve as your executive communication coach. Through private coaching, workshops, and keynotes, I help ambitious executives master formal presentations, establish executive presence, build personal brands, and yes, overcome imposter syndrome.

If you want to stay up to date with my latest tools and coaching insights, go to TalkAboutTalk.com and subscribe to my newsletter.

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Framing Self-Promotion as a Service

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Final Thoughts on Imposter Syndrome

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Rapid Fire Q&A

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Andrea’s Top 3 Takeaways from Kim

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who might benefit. Thank you for listening, and as always, talk soon!

The post New Strategies to Overcome IMPOSTER SYNDROME with Kim Meninger (ep.190) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

You’ve heard of the glass ceiling, but what about the glass walls? Dr. Andrea Wojnicki speaks with Dr. Amy Diehl, co-author of Glass Walls, about six subtle yet powerful gender bias barriers still limiting women at work. Learn how these biases show up in communication in the workplace and what individuals and leaders can do to recognize and dismantle them.

“Female hostility. I always get the question. Sometimes people say that the women in the workplace are worse than the men. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but I will say that when women don’t support other women, it hurts us more. We expect solidarity from our female colleagues.”

That was Dr. Amy Diehl, co-author of the book Glass Walls: Shattering the Six Gender Bias Barriers Still Holding Women Back at Work. In the next 45 minutes, we’re going beyond the glass ceiling and glass cliffs. You’re going to learn what those six glass walls are, how they manifest at work, and what we can do about them. Especially in the context of communication, we’ll explore the power of labeling these barriers and talking about them.

We all witness these glass walls at work. Whether you’re a woman directly affected, an ally observing them, or a leader with the power to influence change, this episode is for you.

Let’s be clear: this isn’t about complaining. This is about using real research to identify, label, and discuss gender bias.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. If you’re a returning listener, welcome back. If you’re new, let me introduce myself. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk. You can learn more about me at talkabouttalk.com. While you’re there, I encourage you to sign up for my email newsletter. Between this podcast and the newsletter, you’ll get valuable communication coaching.

I help leaders improve their communication: presentation skills, executive presence, precision, and personal branding.

All of these skills are hard enough without the additional challenge of gender bias.

Recently I read Glass Walls by Dr. Amy Diehl and Dr. Leanne Dzubinski. From a communication perspective, I saw insights that I knew would resonate with you. So I reached out to Amy, and here we are.

Here’s how these 45 minutes will go: I’ll first introduce Dr. Diehl (Amy) and then we’ll jump into the interview. At the end, I’ll share three key takeaways. Yes, always three; the power of three.

OK, let me introduce Amy.

Amy Diehl, PhD, is an award-winning IT leader and Chief Information Officer at Wilson College in Pennsylvania. She’s also a gender equity researcher and co-author of Glass Walls. Her work has appeared in scholarly journals, Harvard Business Review, Fast Company, and Ms. Magazine. She’s a sought-after speaker, consultant, and expert witness. Her passion is gender equality in society and the workplace. You can find her at amy-diehl.com.

Here we go!

Thank you so much, Amy, for being here to talk about glass walls with me and the Talk About Talk listeners.

Amy Diehl: Thanks so much for having me, Andrea. I’m excited for this conversation.

Andrea Wojnicki: We’ve all heard about the glass ceiling and the glass cliff, but can you define what glass walls are and walk us through the six described in your book?

AD: When my co-author Dr. Leanne Dzubinski and I wrote the book, we didn’t initially have the title. It came together after we finished the manuscript and realized what we were really talking about—barriers in every direction. Not just a ceiling above, but walls all around. Invisible, like glass, you often don’t notice them until you run into them. So the metaphor of glass walls made sense.

These barriers are baked into workplace cultures. Our goal was to name them, make them visible, and start discussions about how to dismantle them.

AW: It’s a perfect metaphor. Can you walk us through the six walls?

AD: Absolutely. The first is male privilege: A dominant workplace culture that includes male gatekeeping, the boys’ club, and even the glass cliff, where women are set up in risky roles and then blamed when things go wrong.

AW: And that first wall, male privilege, forms the foundation for the others, right?

AD: Exactly. The other five barriers build on that base.

AW: Before you go further, I want to encourage listeners to do a mental checklist as they hear about these barriers. Ask yourself: Have I experienced this? Have I observed this?

AD: That’s great advice. For context, we developed a tool, the Gender Bias Scale for Women Leaders, while researching. It identifies the six barriers and is available on my website as a quick self-assessment.

AW: Fantastic. I’ll include that link in the show notes.

AD: The second wall is disproportionate constraints. Women are in the workplace, but with limitations, fewer choices, more scrutiny. From career paths to communication, women face muted voices and are held to unequal standards. Their appearance, tone, and behavior are under constant watch.

The third is insufficient support: lack of mentorship, sponsorship, and access to informal networks. Women are often left out of spaces where decisions are made. One insight from my dissertation: the most confounding barrier for women was unsupportive leadership. Being hired, but not backed when challenges arise, is demoralizing.

AW: That’s especially confusing. “You hired me. Why aren’t you supporting me?”

AD: Exactly. They couldn’t make sense of that.

The fourth wall is devaluation. Women’s contributions are diminished. Salary inequality is one example. Others include being interrupted, called pet names, or not addressed by their professional titles. And there’s office housework (taking on tasks like organizing lunch or cleaning the fridge) without recognition.

AW: Linda Babcock’s work on “non-promotable tasks” comes to mind.

AD: Yes. These tasks are necessary but should be shared. Better yet, hire admin staff to handle them.

AW: Leaders must ensure tasks are equitably distributed.

AD: Right. The fifth glass wall is hostility. Harassment, discrimination, and, yes, female hostility. People often ask whether women in the workplace are worse than men. I don’t know if that’s true, but when women don’t support other women, it hurts more. We expect solidarity from each other. When another woman blocks your opportunity, it feels more shocking.

AW: Can you talk about the queen bee phenomenon and female-only versus mixed-gender dynamics?

AD: Yes, and the sixth and final wall is acquiescence. After repeatedly hitting barriers, women may give up. They stay silent, limit aspirations, or leave entirely. Not because they’re incapable, but because the emotional toll is too high.

AW: So we’re talking to women, allies, and leaders; people who can help create equitable, productive, happy workplaces.

AD: Exactly.

AW: Let’s shift to communication. One strength of your book is the vocabulary. You and Leanne coined many terms to describe these phenomena.

AD: Yes. When we couldn’t find terms in the literature, we created them. For example, role incredulity: assuming a woman isn’t in charge. A director mistaken for an assistant. A physician assumed to be a nurse.

AW: One of my clients is a global CEO, and people often assume she runs just the Canadian division. It’s a classic case.

AD: Yes. It’s often unintentional, but impactful. That moment can change a person’s perception.

Another term is credibility deficit: women’s statements aren’t believed unless confirmed by someone else. My co-author Leanne once had a man turn to her husband to verify what she said, even though she was the expert.

AW: That example stuck with me. What about terms like mansplaining and he-peating?

AD: Mansplaining: Explaining something to a woman in a condescending way. He-peating: A woman’s idea is ignored until a man repeats it and receives credit. If done intentionally, that’s called bro-propriating.

AW: The intent matters. Sometimes it’s unintentional, but still harmful.

AD: Right. One of the biggest issues is interrupting. Men’s voices are privileged. They’re taught it’s acceptable to dominate conversations. If you’re interrupted repeatedly, especially by peers, it undermines your credibility.

AW: I coach women through this all the time. They need strategies, from jokes to private conversations, to enlisting allies.

AD: Yes. Sometimes the most effective approach is pulling someone aside, assuming positive intent, and addressing the pattern.

AW: Let’s talk about a story from a workshop participant. A senior OB-GYN received feedback that she was difficult. She believed female nurses were biased against her.

AD: That’s the status-leveling burden. Women in higher roles often go above and beyond (baking cookies, being extra nice) to gain cooperation from other women. It’s about navigating the contradiction between gender and organizational hierarchies.

AW: Leaders should be aware and provide training so teams understand these dynamics.

AD: Yes. Raising awareness helps people recognize patterns and adjust their behavior.

AW: You mentioned experiencing this personally.

AD: Yes. I had to spend extra time connecting with a secretary who didn’t support me. In the end, what changed things was her retirement. I even sent male colleagues to ask for things because they’d be more successful.

AW: It’s about recognizing the situation and working around it strategically. Let’s talk about flip it to test it.

AD: A simple but powerful tool from sociologist Kristin Pressner. If you say, “Maria is too assertive,” flip it: “Would I say Mario is too assertive?” Probably not. It reveals gender bias in assumptions.

AW: Great for self-checking and for leaders in hiring or evaluations.

AD: Exactly.

AW: What’s your take on Adam Grant’s article about women using “weak” language strategically?

AD: His mistake was calling it weak. It’s not weak, it’s smart. Women are adapting to navigate male-normed environments. Maybe men should adopt these techniques, too.

AW: Like imposter syndrome. Maybe men should question themselves more!

AD: Yes. These strategies make women effective communicators.

AW: Tell us about your next book, Excuses, Excuses.

AD: It explores six myths about why women are never “just right” at work, excuses based on age, appearance, race, etc. The subtitle is The Six Myths Why Women Are Never Quite Right at Work and How We Can Shatter Them. Many of these judgments are contradictory: too quiet, too outspoken, too young, too old. It’s not about the woman. It’s about systemic bias.

AW: Sounds like a powerful follow-up.

AD: We aim to name these issues so they can be addressed.

AW: Let’s end with three rapid-fire questions. Are you an introvert or an extrovert?

AD: Introvert. I think before I speak, and I listen a lot. I believe introverts make great leaders.

AW: What’s your communication pet peeve?

AD: The expectation that women fluff up their emails with pleasantries. It’s time-consuming. With close colleagues, I skip it. But with others, I feel I have to include it so I’m not perceived as cold.

AW: Should men do more of that, too?

AD: Yes. It builds relationships and improves communication for everyone.

AW: Final question. Any books or podcasts you’re recommending?

AD: Yes—Powerfully Likable: A Women’s Guide to Effective Communication by Kate Mason. It offers practical tips without telling women to change who they are. It’s about authentic, effective strategies.

AW: Thank you, Amy. Any final words for listeners?

AD: Gender bias is solvable. It takes all of us working together. And if you’re experiencing bias, remember: it’s not about you. It’s a systemic issue. Don’t take it personally. Strategize and persist.

AW: Thank you, Amy. I learned so much from our conversation.

AD: Thank you for having me.

AW: Most of my guests are doing good in the world, but Amy truly stands out. Her research and advocacy are making workplaces better.

As promised, here are the three takeaways I want to reinforce:

Thank you again, Amy. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed this episode, please rate and review the podcast. It helps others discover us.

Talk soon!

The post Gender Bias and Communication in the Workplace: 6 GLASS WALLS with Dr. Amy Diehl (ep. 189) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Are you ready to go beyond the basics with AI? If you’re only using it for simple tasks, it’s time to level up. Andrea shares three powerful strategies that move past the fundamentals to elevate your communication, deepen your audience connection, and help you integrate AI seamlessly into your workflow.

Most of the executives I coach are already using AI in their day-to-day work. They’ve mastered the basics, but they know there’s more potential.

If that sounds like you, you’re in the right place.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki (but please, call me Andrea). I’m an executive communication coach who helps leaders communicate with confidence and credibility. Through private coaching, workshops, keynotes, and this podcast, I empower professionals like you to level up your executive presence and personal brand.

In this episode, I’m sharing three next-level strategies for using AI to supercharge your communication effectiveness.

But first: let’s talk about how most of us are already using AI.

AI has become a behind-the-scenes partner in our daily workflows. If you’re using it this way, you’re not alone:

These tools are powerful, but they’re just the beginning.

If you’re ready to go beyond spellcheck and tone tweaks, here are three powerful ways to use AI to improve your communication strategy:

Metaphors are one of the most underused tools in business communication. They help clarify complex ideas and make your message memorable.

💡 Example:

When used well, a metaphor can become the centerpiece of your pitch, deck, or keynote.

AI isn’t just for text. It can also generate or inspire visuals that elevate your communication.

Here are some ways to use AI to create effective visuals:

💡 Pro Tip: I used AI to create the cover art for this episode. Check it out at talkabouttalk.com on the podcast tab (link in the show notes!).

Would you rather get constructive criticism from your audience, or from AI before you hit send?

Use AI to anticipate issues with your communication by simulating tough critics:

Asking AI to play devil’s advocate helps you spot blind spots and strengthen your message before it goes live.

Before you go all-in, keep these best practices top of mind:

How are you using AI to enhance your communication?

I’d love to hear your thoughts. Connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram, or comment on YouTube.

If you found this episode helpful, please share it with a colleague, and don’t forget to subscribe to the Talk About Talk podcast for more communication tips.

Thanks for listening. Talk soon! 

The post How to Use AI to Improve Your COMMUNICATION (ep.188) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Bad habits in your communication, like apologetic language, upspeak, and jargon overload, can undermine your credibility. Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares fixes for 10 bad habits so you can start communicating with confidence and credibility. 

Get the free “Bad Habits” download: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/badhabits

Let’s be honest—we all do. Yes, even communication coaches like me. I’m not talking about quirks my teenage kids tease me about. I mean legitimate habits that undermine how we show up—especially as leaders.

Recently, I caught myself overusing the word “right?” at the end of sentences. It was like I needed agreement from you, the listener. Once or twice per episode? Fine. But it got repetitive—and annoying. So I stopped. I also caught myself saying “you guys” instead of something more inclusive like “everyone.” Not great.

One benefit of podcasting (and YouTube)? You get to review your own communication patterns. And let me tell you—it’s eye-opening.

Bad communication habits can be distracting, annoying, and worst of all—they erode your credibility. That’s a big deal, especially if you’re an ambitious professional or executive (which I bet you are, since you’re here!).

Welcome to Talk About Talk. I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki—please, call me Andrea. I coach executives to communicate with confidence and credibility. At TalkAboutTalk.com, you’ll find info on 1:1 coaching, corporate workshops, a free communication skills newsletter, and more.

Ready to level up your communication?

Let’s dive in.

Download the Free Checklist

Follow along with this episode using the free downloadable checklist at talkabouttalk.com/badhabits. It lists all ten habits and what to do instead. Great for self-evaluation or as a conversation starter with colleagues or your boss.

Bad Habit No. 1: Weak, Apologetic Language

Fix:

Try reviewing transcripts of your meetings and searching for “sorry,” “just,” and “maybe.”

Bad Habit No. 2: Upspeak

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 3: Rambling (a.k.a. “Epic Storytelling”)

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 4: Filler Words

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 5: Lack of Eye Contact

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 6: Monotone Delivery

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 7: Getting Interrupted

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 8: Using Corporate Jargon

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 9: Dodging Tough Questions

Fix:

Bad Habit No. 10: Confidence Without Warmth

Fix:

That was a lot—but it’s worth it. Visit talkabouttalk.com/badhabits for your free checklist. Use it to evaluate your habits and prioritize your improvement.

📩 If you enjoyed this episode:

For more communication tips, sign up for my bi-weekly newsletter or explore executive coaching options at TalkAboutTalk.com.

Thanks for listening—Talk soon!

The post 10 Bad Communication Habits That Undermine Your CREDIBILITY (ep. 187) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Ready to improve your Elevator Pitch? Your elevator pitch is an asset that can optimize high-stakes conversations. Learn a dynamic 3-point framework that will help you confidently engage with critical stakeholders, ensuring you make a positive, memorable impact.

Recently, one of my long-time executive communication coaching clients sent me an urgent message: “Can you help me with my elevator pitch?”

He had a high-stakes meeting coming up and wanted that perfect, polished paragraph—something he could memorize and deliver on cue.

My response?

No. (Yes, you heard that right.)

Of course, I helped him prepare for his meeting, and yes, he knocked it out of the park. But I didn’t give him a scripted elevator pitch. Instead, I coached him using a proven 3-step framework that works in any high-stakes conversation.

And now, I’m sharing that framework with you.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk Podcast, Episode 186: Elevate Your Elevator Pitch. (See what I did there?)

In this episode, we’ll explore how to communicate effectively in high-pressure situations, whether you’re networking, pitching to an investor, or seizing a spontaneous opportunity to leave a lasting impression.

Forget memorized scripts. I’ll show you how to elevate your elevator pitch using a customized, authentic approach that resonates every time.

If you’re reading this, chances are you’re:

We’ve all been told that having an elevator pitch is essential. Whether you’re growing your business, pitching clients, or aiming for a promotion, that 30-second spiel is supposed to be your golden ticket.

But a scripted elevator pitch often backfires.

Here’s why:

So, instead of a stiff, rehearsed speech, I recommend a disciplined, authentic, and flexible framework.

Whether you’re in a spontaneous hallway chat or a planned meeting, this framework will help you communicate with confidence and impact.

Before you say anything about yourself, shift the spotlight to the other person.

✅ Ask about their recent projects

For example: “I saw your team just launched an innovative campaign—congrats! What inspired it?”

This approach builds connection and shows empathy.

Pro Tip: It’s NOT all about you.

Positive energy is contagious. Research shows that enthusiasm leads to better outcomes across negotiations, sales, teaching—and yes, job interviews and networking.

Smile. Use an upbeat tone. Let your body language reflect your excitement.

Remember:

Here’s where you highlight your strengths and expertise—your personal brand.

But don’t just list achievements. Frame your experience in a way that resonates with what the other person cares about.

For example:

“I recently led a project that improved customer retention by 25%. I know that’s a big focus for your team as well.”

This shows credibility and relevance.

To elevate your elevator pitch, ditch the robotic, self-serving monologue.

Instead, remember:

This is how you turn high-stakes conversations into genuine opportunities—whether you’re in a boardroom, at a networking event, or yes, even in an actual elevator.

No scripts required.

🎧 Listen to the Full Episode

Being prepared for impromptu conversations with clients, investors, or senior leaders is critical for career growth.

Next time you face one of these moments:

That’s how you communicate with confidence—and leave a lasting impression.

✨ If you found this helpful:

For more communication tips, sign up for my bi-weekly newsletter or explore executive coaching options at TalkAboutTalk.com.

Thanks for listening—Talk soon!

The post Elevate Your ELEVATOR PITCH (ep. 186) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Looking for guidance on how to ace your job interview? Andrea shares an interview preparation checklist, focused on your preparation before the interview, your communication during the interview, what to do after the interview, and how to answer specific Qs. You can download the free downloadable checklist at talkabouttalk.com/interview

Any epic fails—either as the interviewer or the interviewee?

I do. And while it wasn’t exactly a disaster, it still haunts me.

This story takes place when I was finishing my doctorate and actively looking for a faculty position. I was in my early 30s, super keen, and well-prepared. Most of my first-round interviews were held back-to-back at a conference hotel—efficient, intense, and generally successful. I turned most of those interviews into second-round invitations.

But not all of them.

There was one interview that didn’t go well. In fact, it was a complete miss. And to this day, I still think about it.

This interview was with a state school in the U.S. I walked into the room and was met by two middle-aged white men. As soon as they looked at me, they exchanged a glance… and then rolled their eyes. One of them said, “You probably wouldn’t accept a job here anyway. But why don’t you tell us about yourself and why you want to work here?”

Yep—the H-bomb. That’s what we call it when the Harvard credential backfires.

In hindsight, I should’ve stood up, thanked them for their time, and walked out. But I didn’t. I stayed. For the full 45 minutes. And let them grill me.

It. Was. Torture.

Walking out of an interview is a bold move. And honestly, staying was probably the right call. What if those two professors later talked to faculty at another school and said I walked out mid-interview?

Still, that moment sticks with me as my worst interview ever.

And here’s the kicker—I hadn’t even opened my mouth, and they had already decided they didn’t like me.

Even when the interviewer wants to hire you, job interviews can be incredibly anxiety-inducing.

That’s why, in this episode, we’re covering four key things to help you ace your next interview:

Let’s dive in.

Hi there! I’m Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, but please just call me Andrea. I coach ambitious executives—just like you—to communicate with confidence and credibility.

If you’re new here, check out TalkAboutTalk.com to learn more about:

Lately, I’ve had a lot of clients in career transition ask me for help with interview skills.

Good news: Interviewing is all about communication.

And that’s exactly my sweet spot.

To succeed in your next job interview, you need to confidently and clearly communicate your true and best self to the interviewer.

So I created something just for you:

Yes, it’s completely free. And yes, it covers everything we’re about to discuss.

Press pause and print it now, or listen and come back to it later. Either way, go to:  talkabouttalk.com/interview

Before you focus on interview prep, there’s one other thing you need to manage:

Your confidence.

I won’t cover confidence in this episode, but don’t worry—I’ve got you.

Check the show notes for links to other Talk About Talk episodes that focus on building confidence and managing nerves.

1. Before the interview: Preparation is everything

Start by researching the company, the role, and your interviewers if possible. Prepare examples that showcase your experience and align with the job description. Practice your self-introduction and key talking points.

Bonus: Use the checklist I created to guide your prep. It’s all there. Download it now.

2. During the interview: Communicate strategically

Your job in the interview is to communicate your value clearly and confidently. Be concise, positive, and focused. Use frameworks like STAR (Situation, Task, Action, Result) to structure your responses.

And remember: Your personal brand matters. Every answer should reinforce who you are and what sets you apart.

3. After the interview: Follow up like a pro

Always send a thank-you note—ideally within 24 hours. Reinforce your interest in the role, recap a highlight from your conversation, and reiterate how you can add value.

A thoughtful follow-up can help you stand out and leave a lasting impression.

4. Answering specific interview questions

Prepare for common questions like:

And don’t forget to prepare smart questions to ask the interviewer too. Curiosity signals engagement and critical thinking.

Want to feel calm and confident before your next interview?

Want a tool to help you stay on track during your prep?

Grab the free downloadable checklist here: talkabouttalk.com/interview

Use it to prep for your next big opportunity—whether it’s your dream job, a board seat, or an internal promotion.

One last reminder:

If you’re on the job market, download the ace your interview checklist at talkabouttalk.com/interview.

If you found this episode helpful, please:

Thanks for listening—and as always…

Talk soon.

The post How to Ace Your INTERVIEW (ep.185) appeared first on Talk About Talk.