Copywriters Podcast

One of the greatest insiders in direct response today is not primarily a copywriter, but a graphic designer.

Actually, our returning champion Lori Haller is a designer… and so much more.

She works side by side with many of the greatest copywriters of our time to help create control-beating packages, for clients like Boardroom, Healthy Directions, Dr. Al Sears, Nutri-Health, KCI Communications, and Agora.

She has coached clients around the world, and she is an in-demand speaker and trainer.

I’ve only scratched the surface of Lori’s incredible and long list of credentials. You’d be hard pressed to find someone who knows more or who has done more.

Her company, DesigningResponse, based in Germantown, Maryland, has built a reputation for creating award-winning, sales-generating direct mail, online promotions, space advertising, and product development.

Today she’s going to share some of her secrets for using design to get better conversions from your copy.

Here is what we asked her:

1. You are well known for saying “Copy is King, Design is Queen.” Could you talk about that?

2. Help us understand the importance of what needs to go at the top of a sales page. What are the key elements and the reason for designing that way?

3. Could you walk us through what you do in your three-part copy review. (take your time and be as thorough with this answer as you like)

4. I’ve heard that you have an approach where the design can force the reader to go through the copy in a certain sequence. How does that work?

5. How do you match images with the people who will be reading the copy?

6. As a designer, what do you do to get into the prospect’s head?

7. Summing up, what are the top three or four things a copywriter should know and remember about the role of design?

RESOURCES

Lori’s website: https://lorihaller.com

Lori’s videos:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/lori-haller-b2840717/details/featured/

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27 Years Ago, pop singer Cher asked us this question:

“Do you believe in life after love?”

… and it promptly rocketed to the top of the charts, selling 11 million copies of the song.

Today, in 2025, a better question—especially for copywriters—is

“Do you believe in sales without belief?”

It’s a question our returning champion today, Billy Broas, has thought about a lot, and mastered the answer to. And he’s written a book about it, which I highly recommend and we’ll talk about later in the show.

Billy has led a very interesting life. He’s a beer brewer and beer judge. In fact, he started teaching cohort-based courses online 11 years ago, on, wouldn’t you know it, beer tasting.

But he has also done a lot in marketing, advising top entrepreneurs and working in more than 100 niches, including such unusual ones as vegan fitness, Kundalini yoga, and machine learning.

He has some unique and valuable perspectives on marketing and copywriting, which everyone should know about. I’m also proud to say Billy was my mentoring client, way back when. And since then he has been successful in so many ways.

But before we hear what he has to say, I think you should hear what I have to say:

Copy is powerful. You’re responsible for how you use what you hear on this podcast. Most of the time, common sense is all you need. But if you make extreme claims... and/or if you’re writing copy for offers in highly regulated industries like health, finance, and business opportunity... you may want to get a legal review after you write and before you start using your copy. My larger clients do this all the time.

1. How has studying argumentation changed the way you approach copywriting?

2. How do the tools of philosophy, like syllogisms, help in structuring better marketing messages?

3. What is a valid and sound argument, and why should copywriters care about these concepts when crafting their copy?

4. What is the biggest mistake content creators make when producing free content?

5. How does the Belief-Building approach tie into the Five Lightbulbs?

7. Tell us about your book Simple Marketing For Smart People

Billy’s book, Simple Marketing For Smart People: The One Question You Need to Win Customers without Gimmicks, Hype, or Hard Selling

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CW1MQZXP

Bill’s previous podcast about his 5 Lightbulbs model of marketing:

https://copywriterspodcast.com/index.php?podcast=1398

on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTvfcB12CRk

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Two of the most confrontive words in a conversation are “Prove It!”

Nobody really likes to be challenged about how true what they are saying.

But when it comes to writing copy in the real world, you have to expect that prospects WON’T believe you.

In fact, the more they like a claim you make, the more skeptical they will be.

Why?

Because of human nature.

And also, because they’ve been disappointed before.

You can almost imagine them in a cover band, screaming at you, “We won’t be fooled again!”

Now, there is a proven strategy to overcome this doubt and replace it with confidence.

And that strategy, of course, is simply to include proof of what you say in your copy.

But many copywriters don’t use proof well… or they don’t use enough of it… or, even worse, they don’t use proof at all.

Big mistake.

Today we’re going to take some big steps on the road to recovery.

Section 1: The Psychology of Proof focuses on matching proof types to where your customers are in their buying journey. The big takeaway is that emotional and logical proof needs shift based on customer awareness \- what works for cold traffic often fails with warm leads.

Section 2: Building Your Proof Portfolio is about moving beyond basic testimonials to build a complete proof package. The key insight here is using data-driven elements like specific numbers and research findings to support your bigger claims rather than relying only on customer quotes.

Section 3: Strategic Proof Placement teaches you where to position different types of proof in your copy. The critical point is matching specific proof elements to the exact objections they handle \- like putting pricing proof right before the offer reveal.

Section 4: Proof Enhancement Techniques shows how to make existing proof work harder. The standout lesson is adding context and specific details to basic testimonials, turning simple quotes into compelling mini-stories that prospects actually believe.

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Confidence in copywriting isn’t just about choosing the right words—it’s about embodying conviction in every line you write.

In this episode, we explore the hidden ways self-doubt seeps into your messaging, sabotaging conversions before your prospects even realize why. From subconscious hesitations to subtle linguistic hedging, you’ll discover how these confidence leaks silently erode trust and diminish persuasive impact.

But awareness alone isn’t enough. We’ll walk through the exact mental shifts and tactical adjustments needed to eliminate uncertainty from your writing. You’ll learn how to recognize weak spots in your copy, reframe fear-based thinking, and develop a writing style that projects absolute certainty.

Whether it’s overcoming imposter syndrome, handling client criticism, or refining your tone for maximum persuasion, this episode provides the mindset tools necessary to write with authority.

If you’ve ever felt like something was "off" in your copy but couldn’t quite pinpoint the issue, this conversation is for you. We’ll break down why readers instinctively sense doubt—even when it’s unintentional—and how to craft messages that inspire confidence and action.

Tune in now to start mastering the inner game of copywriting.
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Today we look at an old and very true saying:

It’s not about the money you make, but about the money you KEEP.

There’s an old joke about a guy who loses money on every sale, but, he says, “I make it up in volume.”

We’re not talking about back ends or affiliate sales here.

Things can go sideways in your business if you’re not making enough sales, or your profit margins are too small.

Or upside down, like the guy in the joke.

But you’ve got an even a bigger problem even if you’re making enough sales and your margins are good—but the sales don’t stick.

When people decide they don’t want what they bought, you’ve got tons or refunds. Maybe even chargebacks.

So here’s the thing we’re going to focus on today:

You only keep the money you make when the customer decides to KEEP what they bought from you.

And we’ll really dig into how to keep more money by reducing or eliminating refunds and chargebacks.

Recap of what we talked about:

In Section 1, we talked about why buyer’s remorse happens.

We learned about the dopamine drop—a chemical crash that happens after the excitement of buying fades.

We also saw some surprising stats—42% of Americans regret their purchases, and 74% regret online buys.

We explored the reasons behind this regret, from impulse buying to fear of being scammed.

In Section 2, we looked at how to use emails to reduce buyer’s remorse.

We talked about the importance of timing, starting with the “ownership” email within two hours of purchase.

We discussed how to use small wins, social proof, and progress markers to keep customers engaged.

And we covered the importance of building community by day five.

In Section 3, we focused on the words you use after someone buys.

We learned how small language changes—like replacing “purchase” with “access”—can shift the focus to value instead of cost.

We talked about using implementation language to guide customers toward action.

And we explored how ownership language and progress messaging work together to build confidence and satisfaction.

When you put all of these strategies together, you create an experience that keeps customers happy and engaged.

And that’s how you can stop refunds and chargebacks before they even start.

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We’re past the point of wondering about or fearing AI when it comes to copywriting.

At this point, the big question is: What do I need to know, do and have to make it work for me?

I say that because copywriters at all levels of skill and in all niches are using AI in all kinds of ways. It’s no longer the new new thing. It’s a part of the business, and it continues to grow in importance and ability to do more and more complex things really well.

But you have to grow with it. Many people think they can say “write like the world’s greatest copywriter” and AI will read your mind.

It won’t.

It will read millions of pages of data in its own library and they may or may not have anything to do with what you think great copy is like.

So we decided to put together a show today to talk about three things you need to get AI working for you with copywriting.

So you can avoid the frustrations of the past.

Those three things are:

Mindset

Skillset

And Toolset.

Here’s a recap of what we talked about today:

Mindset

-Look at it as an assistant or a partner, NOT as a genie in a bottle

-Realize you need to tell it WHAT to do and WHAT NOT to do, in much greater detail and with much greater precision than you thought… if you want to get the results you’re looking for

-AI knows everything, so it knows nothing. It needs guidance and you need to stay on your toes. It will and can make things up or just get things plain wrong

Skillset

- Writing initial prompts or sets of prompts. Only way I know to do and save sets is poe.com, but there are probably others

- Knowing how to ask for what you left out in prompts, and how to use the information you get back. AI will tell you what you need to know if you ask.

- Knowing how to push back when the AI isn’t delivering or is delivering the wrong information or other output. Sometimes it’s prodding, sometimes it’s coddling, sometimes it’s negotiation, and sometimes it’s scolding.

Toolset

- Poe.com is really helpful. You can store prompt sets, you can use different AIs, you can include a lot of information in a given task. (Give examples of different ways to use Poe)

- perplexity.ai is great for research with verifiable links

- Novus AI mastermind. We’re both members, I’m a partner, we’re both there each week. Gotten a lot out of it and expect even more in the future!

Resource:

Novus AI Copywriting Mastermind:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f_6Vbuy70Y0qts_j-ocJjO8LUwRCc8h-lKrkh6bkSJ0/edit?usp=sharing

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We have a very special guest today. A legend among insiders, Caleb O’Dowd is a master marketer and copywriter. He has been launching and scaling businesses from zero to seven figures and eight figures, through the smart use of great copy and strategic sales funnels.

In more industries than I can count. Including some of the most brutally competitive.

I was thrilled when Caleb agreed to come on Copywriters Podcast for many reasons, especially the one that he has written a new book:

Monetization: How To Optimize Sales Funnels and Skyrocket Backend Profits.

Caleb also had the rare and prized opportunity to work with famous copywriter Gary Halbert a while back, and their time together alone makes for a world-class education in direct marketing and copywriting.

Hang on tight. This is going to be a great show!

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Caleb’s book: Monetization: How To Optimize Sales Funnels and Skyrocket Backend Profits.

https://www.amazon.com/Monetization-Optimize-Funnels-Skyrocket-Backend/dp/B0CWQMM5PZ

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At the highest levels of copywriting, big financial publishers ask copywriters to do a “re-lead” when they want to increase conversion on a proven offer.

What’s that?

A re-lead is basically a reframing of the intro to a sales letter, in the hopes that the reframing will spur greater sales.

And it’s probably no coincidence that when my mentoring clients show me copy they’re having trouble with, the first thing I look at is the headline and lead.

A revamping of those two things — the beginning of the sales letter — will fix a conversion problem more often than any other fix.

Today, we’re going to take a systematic look at three ways to reframe your headline and lead, in search of greater conversions.

It’s a great way to start the New Year!

Just as this is a great way to start copywriters podcast:

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You could say the purpose of a sales funnel is to create desire that leads up to a sale, but these days, if that’s what you say, you’ve left out an important part.

A part that very well could make the difference between a sale and no sale.

With trust in general at such an all-time low and the feeling of isolation so rampant, people want a little more.

They want to feel like you, as a business or a businessperson, care. Both about them personally, and the things they care about.

You don’t need to be the personal Oprah of their very being. You’re not granting them wishes or completely improving every aspect of their lives.

But if you’ve got a good offer, you’re improving some aspect of their lives. And if you can create a relationship in your messaging that includes the spirit of caring, your sales will do much, much better.

Here’s a recap of what we’ll cover on this episode:

-First Contact: Making the Right First Impression

How to identify and speak to your prospect's immediate pain point

Creating an irresistible entry-level offer that proves your value

Writing headlines and leads that filter for qualified prospects

-Trust Building: Using Proof Effectively

Structuring testimonials for maximum believability

Demonstrating authority without bragging

Using specific numbers and results to overcome skepticism

-After The Sale-Keeping The Customers Happy

Writing follow-up sequences that reinforce buying decisions

Creating quick wins to build momentum and satisfaction

Setting expectations for the next offer in the sequence

-Moving Customers Up Your Price Ladder

Timing and positioning your next offer

Using past purchase history to personalize future pitches

Building exclusivity and status into higher-tier offerings

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Our returning champion is Brenna McGowan, the master of the pre-launch.

Today she’s going to tell us about a special pre-launch technique called Anticipation Marketing™.

Perhaps the best advantage it gives you is it puts you front and center in your prospects’ minds, and at the same time gets them eagerly looking forward to getting the full details about what you’re going to launch.

Maybe even more important is that it revolves around one word: Trust. As we’ve talked about here before, and as you know, right now trust is at an all-time low.

Lots of reasons for this, but you don’t want low trust to interfere with your launch.

Anticipation Marketing helps you build trust by gradually getting them familiar with your new offer, in an unobtrusive and exciting way so they just can’t wait for the launch itself!

Your free personalized launch calendar from Brenna:

https://brennamcgowan.co/launchcalendar

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