In this episode of Perfect Prey, I’m joined by Tonia Bales, author of When You See It: How I Outsmarted and Outlasted Dirty John. Tonia shares her story as the first wife of the man later known to the world as “Dirty John”—long before the podcast, Netflix series, or public recognition of who he really was.

Tonia describes how coercive control, deception, and manipulation unfolded inside her marriage, how she began uncovering her husband’s double life, and how the legal and family court systems failed to protect her and her children. This conversation offers a powerful look at how predators hide in plain sight, how survivors are often DARVO’d when they speak up, and how children become collateral damage in abusive systems.

What we cover

• Life with Dirty John before the world knew his name
  

• How predators identify and target “perfect prey”
  

• Early warning signs, red flags, and deception hidden in plain sight
  

• DARVO tactics and false accusations used to silence victims
  

• Substance abuse, professional abuse of power, and systemic failure
  

• Family court, coercive control, and the weaponization of children
  

• Protective parenting, resilience, and healing after profound trauma
  

  
  

Why listen If you are a survivor, protective parent, clinician, attorney, or advocate, this episode offers critical insight into how coercive control operates long before abuse is publicly recognized. Tonia’s story underscores why survivors are not naïve or weak—and why systems must do better to protect those who speak up.

Guest bio (short) Tonia Bales is a survivor of coercive control and the author of When You See It: How I Outsmarted and Outlasted Dirty John. Her story sheds light on the early patterns of abuse used by predators and the long-term impact of coercive control on victims and children. Through her writing and advocacy, Tonia works to educate the public and professionals about how abuse hides in plain sight—and why survivors must be believed.

Book information When You See It: How I Outsmarted and Outlasted Dirty John Available for presale on Amazon and Barnes & Noble Release date: January 13

Connect Tonia Bales:

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/toniabales?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet&igsh=ZDNlZDc0MzIxNw==

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tonia.bales/

• Book Pre-order Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCDDC6FL?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGnHUKUJZ66YW-ed61SGw-lrKgFG6dnBGrVNG3HKq8--EQOpUpk0p_RHBPIooU_aem_yzp5bcFQZ3qA-0ZB2cUsZQ

• Book Pre-order Barnes & Noble: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/when-you-see-it-tonia-bales/1147557107?utm_source=ig&utm_medium=social&utm_content=link_in_bio&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQMMjU2MjgxMDQwNTU4AAGnsCgCEudPLDgxvCiAhmFYxcmlITQgdX8Kg9N5ItIrcW5Doxah2aRfQpDKwmU_aem_nHP_j-GiGb8xTQFMQqQo4g

  
  

Connect with Dr. Christine:

• Protective Parenting Program: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

• Official site: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/

• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrCocchiola-coercivecontrol/videos

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.c_coercivecontrol

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol/

• TEDxTalks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2qByKOue4&t=24s

• Books: https://url-shortener.me/c/FramedBook

• https://url-shortener.me/c/EveryMomentOfEveryDay

  
  

If this episode landed for you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it, subscribe for more trauma-informed conversations, and consider leaving a review — it helps other survivors find validation and safety.

— Dr. Christine Cocchiola & guest Tonia Bales

In this episode of Perfect Prey, I’m joined by David Challen, author of The Unthinkable, who shares his experience growing up as a child inside a coercively controlling family system. David offers a rare and powerful perspective on coercive control through the eyes of a child—long before there was language to describe abuse, and long before systems were willing to see it.

This conversation explores how coercive control creates an atmosphere of fear, vigilance, humiliation, and emotional captivity within families, even when there is no visible violence. David reflects on the early intuition that something was wrong, the “rot in the house” that others could not see, and how children normalize danger in order to survive. Together, we examine the intergenerational harm caused by coercive control and why children are not passive witnesses, but co-victims.

What we cover

• What coercive control looks and feels like through the eyes of a child

• How children sense danger, imbalance, and domination long before abuse is named

• The normalization of mockery, humiliation, fear, and emotional subservience within families

• Why coercive control is not “hidden abuse,” but a trajectory of escalating harm

• How long-term psychological domination strips autonomy, identity, and safety over time

• The concept of “systemic degradation” and how victims are worn down across years or decades

• Why victim retaliation is often misunderstood, mislabeled, and criminalized

• The long-term impact on adult child survivors and protective parents
  

Why listen

If you are a survivor, protective parent, adult child survivor, clinician, or legal professional, this episode offers critical insight into how coercive control operates inside families and why children are deeply affected—even when abuse is not outwardly visible. This conversation brings clarity to experiences that are often minimized, misunderstood, or dismissed, and highlights why coercive control must be recognized as the foundation of all abuse.

Guest bio (short)

David Challen is an author, speaker, and campaigner on domestic abuse and coercive control. He is the author of The Unthinkable, which tells the story of growing up in a coercively controlled household and the devastating impact of long-term psychological abuse on children and families. David is a prominent advocate for greater recognition of coercive control and has spoken widely about intergenerational harm, survivor justice, and systemic failure.

Connect David Challen:

• Instagram: https://l1nq.com/davidinstagram

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@davidchallen?is_from_webapp=1&sender_device=pc

• Learn more about David: https://www.eida.org.uk/davids-story

• Website: https://l1nq.com/davidchallenwebsite

• The Unthinkable: https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/david-challen/the-unthinkable/9781914240263/

  
  

Connect with Dr. Christine:

• Protective Parenting Program: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

• Official site: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/

• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrCocchiola-coercivecontrol/videos

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.c_coercivecontrol

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol/

• TEDxTalks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2qByKOue4&t=24s

• Books: https://url-shortener.me/c/FramedBook

• https://url-shortener.me/c/EveryMomentOfEveryDay

  
  

If this episode landed for you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it, subscribe for more trauma-informed conversations, and consider leaving a review — it helps other survivors find validation and safety.

— Dr. Christine Cocchiola & guest David Challen

In this episode of Perfect Prey, I’m joined by Anne Wintemute, co-creator of Aimee Says, an innovative AI platform designed specifically to support victims and survivors of coercive control. Aimee Says helps survivors understand abusive communication patterns, validate their lived experiences, and assist with documentation—particularly in high-stakes situations such as custody and family court.

We explore why victims and survivors are not harmed because of character flaws, but because abusers intentionally target people who are kind, empathic, agreeable, and giving. Anne explains how Aimee Says was built around expertise in coercive control, narcissistic abuse, domestic violence, and power-and-control dynamics—and why that specialization matters.

What we cover

• What Aimee Says is and how it supports survivors of coercive control
• Why validation and being truly heard are foundational to healing and decision-making
• How Aimee helps identify gaslighting, financial abuse, intimidation, and coercive patterns
• Using Aimee Says to support documentation, journaling, and preparation for legal processes
• Key differences between Aimee Says and general AI tools, including safety, trauma-informed guardrails, and survivor-centered design
• Privacy, confidentiality, and safety considerations for survivors navigating digital tools
• How tools like Aimee Says can reduce isolation and help restore agency and clarity

Why listenIf you are a survivor, protective parent, clinician, attorney, or advocate, this episode offers a grounded, accessible explanation of how coercive control operates and why survivors so often feel confused, minimized, or silenced. You’ll also learn how thoughtfully designed tools can help survivors feel validated, supported, and better equipped to navigate complex systems.

Guest bio (short)Anne Wintemute is the co-creator of Aimee Says, an AI-powered platform developed to support victims and survivors of coercive control through validation, pattern recognition, and trauma-informed guidance. Her work focuses on increasing access to expert-level support while prioritizing survivor safety, autonomy, and confidentiality.

Learn more about Anne Wintemute and Aimee Says:

Anne Wintemute on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anne-wintemute-897077106Canvas Rebel interview: https://canvasrebel.com/meet-anne-wintemute/Aimee Says – Our Story: https://www.aimeesays.com/story

Connect with Dr. Christine:

• Protective Parenting Program: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

• Official site: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/

• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrCocchiola-coercivecontrol/videos

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.c_coercivecontrol

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol/

• TEDxTalks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2qByKOue4&t=24s

• Books: https://url-shortener.me/c/FramedBook

• https://url-shortener.me/c/EveryMomentOfEveryDay

  
  

If this episode landed for you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it, subscribe for more trauma-informed conversations, and consider leaving a review — it helps other survivors find validation and safety.

— Dr. Christine Cocchiola & guest Anne Wintemute

In this episode of Perfect Prey, I speak with Sarma Melngailis, author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo and the central figure in the documentary Bad Vegan. Sarma shares her lived experience of sustained psychological coercion, how it felt to be worn down and re-anchored in someone else’s reality, and what the recovery process looks like after a relationship that functioned much like a one-on-one cult.

What we cover

• How coercive control can operate like psychological warfare and the tactics that make it feel impossible to leave.
  

• Why intelligent, accomplished people can become victims: the slow wearing down, mirroring, and exploitation of hopes and vulnerabilities.
  

• The parallels between cult dynamics and one-on-one coercive relationships—why isolation and repeated micro-assaults change perception and decision-making.
  

• The aftermath: public shame, misrepresentation in media, and the ongoing work of reclaiming agency, safety, and reputation.
  

• Practical reflections for survivors and protective parents: how to notice red flags early, the power of sitting with your intuition, and how healing helps rebuild boundaries and clarity.
  

Why listen Sarma’s story illustrates that coercive control is not about intelligence or credentials — it’s about a strategic, multifaceted assault on agency and reality. Whether you are a survivor, a caregiver, a clinician, or someone trying to understand how otherwise kind and competent people get trapped, this episode names the mechanisms, normalizes survivors’ reactions, and offers concrete ideas for protection and recovery.

Guest bio (short) Sarma Melngailis is the author of The Girl with the Duck Tattoo and the subject of the documentary Bad Vegan. She writes and speaks about her experience of coercive control and its aftermath, helping others recognize the subtle, insidious tactics used by predatory partners.

Connect with Sarma Melngailis:

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sarmamelngailis

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/sarmamelngailis

• Linktree: https://linktr.ee/sarmamelngailis?utm_source=linktree_profile_share<sid=5c0c0b7d-0fd4-4700-b1ff-86848db49061

• Books: https://l1nk.dev/Sarma-Melngailis-Books

Connect with Dr. Christine:

• Protective Parenting Program: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

• Official site: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/

• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrCocchiola-coercivecontrol/videos

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.c_coercivecontrol

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol/

• TEDxTalks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2qByKOue4&t=24s

• Books: https://url-shortener.me/c/FramedBook

• https://url-shortener.me/c/EveryMomentOfEveryDay

If this episode landed for you, please share it with someone who needs to hear it, subscribe for more trauma-informed conversations, and consider leaving a review — it helps other survivors find validation and safety.

— Dr. Christine Cocchiola & guest Sarma Melngailis

In this episode of Perfect Prey I’m joined by my friend and colleague Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a clinical psychologist, author, professor, and internationally recognized expert on narcissistic abuse. We dig into why coercive control feels like imprisonment without bars, how systems (including family court) retraumatize survivors, and what survivors can do to protect themselves and their children. 

What we cover

• Why coercive control is often invisible — and why the myth of “free will” makes it so hard for institutions to understand emotional abuse.
  

• How victim-blaming and the DARVO pattern (Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim & Offender) let abusers manipulate sympathy in court.
  

• The difference between milder narcissistic traits and the kind of malignant, coercive abuse that creates real danger and CPTSD-like responses.
  

• Practical, trauma-informed strategies for surviving family court: what to document, when to prioritize safety over “justice,” and how to protect your children while minimizing retraumatization.
  

• The “industrial divorce complex” — how systems and money can deepen harm, and what survivors can do strategically to preserve their safety and sense of self.
  

Why listen If you’re a survivor, a clinician, a legal professional, or someone trying to understand a loved one’s experience, this conversation names the harms you may not see on the surface and gives clear, compassionate guidance for staying safe and getting validated. You’ll hear clinical insight paired with real-world, tactical advice about custody, court behavior, and how to build a safety-first plan.

Guest bio (short) Dr. Ramani Durvasula, Ph.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, and media expert who writes and speaks widely about narcissism, personality disorders, and relationship dynamics. She maintains a clinical practice and educational network focused on helping people heal from narcissistic relationships. 

Connect with Dr. Ramani:

• Official site: https://doctor-ramani.com/drn/

• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DoctorRamani

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doctorramani

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/doctorramani/

• Podcast: Navigating Narcissism with Dr. Ramani

• Books: https://www.amazon.co.uk/stores/Ramani-Durvasula/author/B00C2C5U0O?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

  
  

Connect with Dr. Christine:

• Protective Parenting Program: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

• Official site: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/

• Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrCocchiola-coercivecontrol/videos

• Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.c_coercivecontrol

• IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol/

• TEDxTalks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2qByKOue4&t=24s

• Books: https://url-shortener.me/c/FramedBook

• https://url-shortener.me/c/EveryMomentOfEveryDay

  
  

If this episode landed for you: share it with someone who needs to hear it, subscribe for more trauma-informed conversations, and leave a rating — it helps more survivors find validation and safety.

— Dr. Christine Cocchiola & guest Dr. Ramani Durvasula

In this episode of Perfect Prey, I sit down with Dr. Jaime Zuckerman, a licensed clinical psychologist and national expert in narcissistic abuse, to uncover the hidden dynamics of coercive control and narcissistic relationships. Dr. Zuckerman shares her deep expertise from years of working with survivors, offering insight into the traits that make individuals vulnerable, the subtle and overt patterns of abuse, and the critical need for better clinician training to identify these behaviors.

As the founder of The Z Group, host of the Next Up: Narcissism podcast, and author of two interactive workbooks—Find Your Calm and Find Good Habits—Dr. Zuckerman brings practical tools and real-world strategies for reclaiming your power, setting boundaries, and rebuilding your life. She also shares a sneak peek at her upcoming guided workbook designed to help survivors navigate narcissistic abuse in any type of relationship.

Whether you’re a survivor, a clinician, or someone seeking to understand the insidious nature of coercive control, this episode provides clarity, guidance, and the support you need to recognize patterns and take back your power.

Connect with Dr. Zuckerman:

• Workshops: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/workshops
• IG: https://www.instagram.com/dr.z_psychologist/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@DrJaimeZuckerman
• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dr.z_psychologist
• Narcissistic Abuse Coaching: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/
• Therapy with The Z Group: https://www.zgrouptherapy.com/
• Podcast: Next Up: Narcissism https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/podcast
• Books: https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/books

In this episode of Perfect Prey, I sit down with Vanessa Reiser, LCSW, a renowned psychotherapist, speaker, and advocate who has dedicated her career to helping survivors of narcissistic abuse and coercive control reclaim their lives.

Vanessa is the founder of Tell a Therapist, a nationwide telehealth platform, and the author of Narcissistic Abuse: A Therapist’s Guide, a groundbreaking resource that not only unpacks the devastating impact of narcissistic and cult abuse but also offers clinicians the training and tools they need to support survivors in the healing process.

Together, we explore what coercive control looks like in real life. We talk about why certain people are more vulnerable to narcissistic abuse, the toll it takes on mental health, and how survivors can begin to recognize the patterns and break free.

We also shine a light on the unique challenges survivors face in family court when narcissistic abuse is involved, and why therapist training in this area is so urgently needed. Vanessa’s book is an essential guide for professionals and survivors alike, offering not just insight but hope—that recovery is possible, and that healing from narcissistic abuse is about reclaiming your voice, your power, and your life.

Connect with Vanessa:

• Narcissistic Abuse: A Therapist’s Guide: https://www.amazon.com/Narcissistic-Abuse-Therapists-Identifying-Manipulative/dp/0306833174
• Tell a Therapist: https://tellatherapist.net/
• Follow Vanessa on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vanessareiserlcsw/

Resources Mentioned in this Podcast:

🔸Follow Dr. Christine on IG: www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol

🔸Services for Professionals: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-professionals/

🔸Private Coaching: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/private-coaching/

🔸Free Guide: Clinical Implications for Children Who Are Coercively Controlled: https://drchristinemarie.kartra.com/page/childvictimofccgrowthguide

In this episode of Perfect Prey: A Podcast on Coercive Control, I am joined by Dr. Bandy X. Lee, a forensic psychiatrist and internationally recognized expert on violence. Together, we examine the alarming injustices occurring within family courts, where coercive control, child abuse, and even child trafficking are too often overlooked or minimized.

Dr. Lee brings her extensive experience to highlight how judicial culture and systemic failures repeatedly fail to protect victims, leaving children and protective parents at risk. We also discuss the urgent need for reform and the strategies that could begin to shift these deeply entrenched systems.

This is an important conversation for anyone concerned about child safety, coercive control, and the changes necessary to ensure our family courts serve the best interests of children.

Tune in for insight, advocacy, and a call to action for systemic change.

Connect with Dr. Bandy:

Website: https://bandylee.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bandyxlee/?hl=enJoin Dr. Bandy on Substack: https://bandyxlee.substack.com/

Resources Mentioned in this Podcast:

🔸Follow Dr. Christine on IG: www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol

🔸Services for Parents: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

🔸Services for Professionals: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-professionals/

🔸Services for Victims of Abuse: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-individuals/

🔸Private Coaching: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/private-coaching/

🔸Free Guide: Clinical Implications for Children

Who Are Coercively Controlled: https://drchristinemarie.kartra.com/page/childvictimofccgrowthguide

In this episode of Perfect Prey: A Coercive Control Podcast, Dr. Christine Cocchiola sits down with Dr. Peter Salerno to take a deeper look at the hidden dynamics of coercive control and the psychological abuse that entraps partners and children in cycles of fear, confusion, and dependency.

We explore the defining traits of coercive controllers, how they manipulate both adult and child victims, and why survivors often struggle with cognitive dissonance, a mental conflict that can keep them tethered to abusive relationships long after the harm is clear. Together, we discuss the traumatic impact of cognitive dissonance, how abusers condition children to adopt distorted beliefs, and what protective strategies parents can use to safeguard their children’s well-being.

You’ll also hear about the crucial role of trauma-informed therapy, ways to respond intentionally to children’s conditioned behaviors, and how survivors can begin to break free from the psychological grip of coercive control.

This conversation sheds light on the complex psychological dynamics of abuse and offers practical steps for supporting both adults and children who have been targeted by coercive controllers.

If you’ve ever felt trapped in a relationship that left you doubting your own reality, or if you’re working to protect children from ongoing manipulation, this episode will give you clarity, tools, and hope for the path forward.

Connect with Dr. Peter Salerno:

Website: https://www.drpetersalerno.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drpetersalerno/

Book a Consultation: https://www.drpetersalerno.com/new-page-1

Book: https://www.drpetersalerno.com/new-page

Resources Mentioned in this Podcast:

🔸Follow Dr. Christine on IG: www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol

🔸Services for Parents: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

🔸Services for Professionals: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-professionals/

🔸Services for Victims of Abuse: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-individuals/

🔸Private Coaching: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/private-coaching/

🔸Free Guide: Clinical Implications for Children

Who Are Coercively Controlled: https://drchristinemarie.kartra.com/page/childvictimofccgrowthguide

In this episode of Perfect Prey Podcast, I sit down with journalist and author Rich Cohen to discuss his book, Murder in the Dollhouse, which explores the tragic case of Jennifer Dulos, a mother from New Canaan, Connecticut, murdered by her husband, Fotis Dulos. Together, we examine the role of coercive control in intimate partner violence, the systemic failures that too often leave victims unprotected, and the broader implications for Jennifers' Law in Connecticut.

Rich Cohen is a bestselling author and award-winning journalist whose work has appeared in The New York Times, Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, and Rolling Stone. His keen ability to uncover the human story behind complex events has shaped his career as both a storyteller and social commentator, bringing clarity and depth to difficult conversations.

Rich shares powerful insights into the patterns of abuse, the hidden nature of coercion, and why it is essential for all of us to recognize the warning signs.

Connect with Rich:

Buy the book: https://www.amazon.com/Murder-Dollhouse-Jennifer-Dulos-Story/dp/0374608067

Follow Rich on Social Media: https://www.instagram.com/author.richcohen/?hl=en

https://www.facebook.com/rich.cohen1

https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-cohen-4736816/

https://x.com/richcohen2003?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

Resources To Support this Podcast:

🔸Follow Dr. Christine on IG: www.instagram.com/dr.cocchiola_coercivecontrol

🔸Services for Parents: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-parents/

🔸Services for Professionals: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-professionals/

🔸Services for Victims of Abuse: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/services/for-individuals/

🔸Private Coaching: https://www.coercivecontrolconsulting.com/private-coaching/

🔸Free Guide: Clinical Implications for Children

Who Are Coercively Controlled: https://drchristinemarie.kartra.com/page/childvictimofccgrowthguide