Psychologists Off the Clock

We’ve all had those moments when a simple shift in perspective suddenly makes everything feel possible, and that’s exactly what this episode explores.

Debbie is joined in this episode, Stanford psychologist Gregory Walton for a conversation about his book Ordinary Magic and how small shifts in the way we think can lead to big changes in our lives and communities.

From the way we handle tough moments and self-doubt to how institutions support students or help juvenile offenders find their footing again, Gregory shows how simple, well-designed interventions can make a powerful difference. He shares real-life stories and research that reveal how even a single encouraging message can transform someone’s outlook.

At its heart, this conversation is all about perspective, compassion, and the power of listening, reminding us that meaningful change often starts with the smallest, most human gestures.

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Listen and Learn: 

• How simple shifts in perspective, rooted in social psychology, can create what feels like “ordinary magic,” helping us navigate life’s challenges with greater wisdom and clarity
• Spotting and stepping out of the emotional spirals that quietly shape your relationships, helping you break the cycle and build real connections instead
• How our strongest reactions often reveal deeper questions like “Do I really belong?” or “Do they really love me?” and how noticing those moments can turn conflict into connection
• The surprising ways tiny facts shape big theories about ourselves and others, and why a change in perspective can transform the story
• How the cycles that shape our relationships, sense of belonging, and life trajectory are not fixed, and how small, intentional interventions can create lasting positive change
• A nuanced approach to belonging, self-esteem, and growth, showing how the subtle ways we respond to people’s questions about themselves can truly shape their confidence and resilience.
• Building honest, meaningful relationships, especially for young people facing huge challenges, can create transformative change in schools and communities

Resources: 

• Ordinary Magic: The Science of How We Can Achieve Big Change with Small Acts https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593580899 
• Gregory’s Website: https://www.gregorywalton.com/
• A blog post by Debbie on praising children and the problem with the self-esteem movement
• Connect with Gregory on Social Media: 
• https://www.instagram.com/dr.gdub

About Dr. Gregory Walton

Dr. Gregory Walton is the Michael Forman University Fellow and professor of psychology at Stanford University. Much of his research investigates psychological processes that contribute to major social problems, and how brief psychological interventions that target these processes can address such problems and help people flourish over long periods of time. Greg’s research has been published in leading scientific journals, and has been covered in major media outlets including the New York Times, Harvard Business Review, The Wall Street Journal, and NPR. He has received awards from numerous organizations including from the American Education Research Association, the American Psychological Association, the Society for Experimental Social Psychology, and the Society for the Psychological Study of Social Issues. He earned his A.B. in Philosophy from Stanford and a PhD in Psychology from Yale University. His new book is called Ordinary Magic: The Science of How We Can Achieve Big Change with Small Acts. 

Related Episodes: 

• 422. Mindwise with Nicholas Epley
• 393. Supercommunicators with Charles Duhigg 
• 281. Belonging Uncertainty and Bridging Divides with Geoffrey Cohen
• 255. Influence is Your Superpower with Zoe Chance
• 212. Stuff That’s Loud: OCD and Anxiety with Lisa Coyne and Ben Sedley – Psychologists Off the Clock     
• 200. Growing Grit with Angela Duckworth – Psychologists Off the Clock 

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Have you ever found yourself holding onto feelings of guilt or shame long after a difficult experience or mistake? 

In this episode, Jill sits down with Dr. Carolyn Allard, a leading voice in trauma-focused psychology and research. Together, they unpack the complex nature of guilt and shame, especially when these emotions become non-adaptive in the face of trauma or hardship. 

Carolyn, who is also the author of Transform Your Guilt and Shame: Evidence-Based Strategies to Heal from Trauma and Adversity, shares how to recognize the difference between guilt and shame and introduces the idea of “non-adaptive guilt and shame” (NAGS). 

You’ll gain insight into how these emotions link to moral injury and other trauma responses, and walk away with actionable tools such as hindsight bias and justification analysis to better understand, challenge, and manage them.

Listen and Learn: 

• How guilt and shame differ lies in focus, as guilt is about actions and shame is about identity, and why they matter
• How moral injury can emerge from situations where individuals face impossible choices that conflict with their values, leading to lasting feelings of guilt and shame
• Why we feel non-adaptive guilt and shame often comes down to distorted beliefs about responsibility, justification, and values, and how understanding these patterns helps us break free from self-blame and move toward self-compassion
• How hindsight bias can trick us into unfair self-judgment, and by reflecting on our choices and context at the time, we can gain a clearer, kinder perspective
• Understanding the difference between accountability (being answerable) and responsibility (having control or intention) and how this helps us untangle guilt and shame, process mistakes effectively, and break the self-reinforcing cycles of trauma that impair our ability to act according to our values

Resources: 

• Transform Your Guilt and Shame: Evidence-Based Strategies to Heal from Trauma and Adversity: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781433843419 
• Carolyn’s Website: https://www.carolynallardphd.com/
• Connect with Carolyn on Social Media: 

Bluesky: 

https://bsky.app/profile/carolynallardphd.bsky.social

Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/p/Carolyn-Allard-PhD 

LinkedIn

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolyn-allard-99749155/

About Carolyn B. Allard

Carolyn B. Allard ,PhD, ABPP, is internationally recognized for her trauma-focused research and clinical expertise. She is a licensed, board-certified clinical psychologist, Distinguished Professor and Program Director of the Clinical Psychology PhD Program at Alliant International University. Before that, she directed a trauma clinic at the VA San Diego Healthcare System and served as clinical faculty at the University of California San Diego. Carolyn also serves on the executive council of the American Psychological Association’s Trauma Division and its scientific journal’s editorial board, and has over 200 scientific publications and presentations. For over 20 years, she has been providing therapy, training and consultation in empirically supported therapy for posttraumatic distress; and conducting research focused on socio-cultural and contextual predictors of posttraumatic distress and treatment outcomes. She co-developed Trauma Informed Guilt Reduction (TrIGR), the evidence-based therapy that is the basis of her latest book, Transform Your Guilt and Shame, a self-guided workbook. Besides making psychology accessible, Carolyn is passionate about traveling and promoting compassion. Visit CarolynAllardPhD.com for more information.

Related Episodes:

• 118. Moral Injury and Shame with Lauren Borges and Jacob Farnsworth
• 416. Trauma and PTSD Treatment with Robyn Walser
• 383. What My Bones Know: C-PTSD with Stephanie Foo
• 417. Busting Trauma Treatment Myths with Emi Nietfeld
• 405. Taming the Inner Critic with Holly Yates and Shawn Whooley
• 341. Self-Forgiveness with Grant Dewar
• 279. ACT for Healing Black Racial Trauma with Jennifer Shepard Payne

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These days, it feels like we’re bombarded with information from every direction, and figuring out what’s true can be overwhelming. 

Yael sits down with Alex Edmans, author of May Contain Lies, for a fascinating conversation about how misinformation shapes the way we see the world. They talk about why even fact-checking has its limits and how common biases, such as wanting to confirm what we already believe or seeing things in black and white, can cloud our judgment. 

Using everyday examples, from the Atkins diet to debates about breastfeeding, Alex shows how data can be bent to tell almost any story. We invite you to stay curious but skeptical, with practical strategies for navigating opposing views and creating more thoughtful, respectful conversations.

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Listen and Learn:

• Why simply “checking the facts” isn’t enough and how even accurate data can mislead when context, updates, or evolving evidence are ignored
• How confirmation bias subtly shapes our judgments, even among experts and leaders
• Why we’re drawn to simple, black-and-white explanations and how applying scientific thinking and questioning our own biases helps us see nuance, challenge popular myths, and make more informed decisions
• The danger of oversimplified advice and the lasting impact of misinformation, and why real progress and understanding come from embracing complexity and questioning easy answers
• Being “data-driven” isn’t enough, and true understanding comes from distinguishing data from evidence
• How reframing conflict through curiosity and focusing on shared goals, rather than opposition, can transform disagreements into opportunities for collaboration, deeper understanding, and personal growth
• Managing disagreements by calming their initial reactions, focusing on shared goals, and giving others the benefit of the doubt, turning conflict into an opportunity for understanding and growth

Resources: 

• May Contain Lies: How Stories, Statistics, and Studies Exploit Our Biases--And What We Can Do about It https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780520405851 
• Alex’s Website: https://alexedmans.com/ 
• Connect with Alex on Social Media: 

https://www.instagram.com/aedmans

https://www.linkedin.com/in/aedmans/

https://twitter.com/aedmans 

About Alex Edmans: 

Alex Edmans is a Professor of Finance at London Business School, where his ability to translate complex ideas has earned him 28 teaching awards and the title of Poets & Quants Professor of the Year in 2021. His journey has taken him from Oxford to Wall Street (Morgan Stanley), then to MIT as a Fulbright Scholar for his PhD, followed by tenure at Wharton before joining LBS.

Alex moves fluidly between academia and the real world—he's testified in Parliament, spoken at Davos, and somehow convinced 3 million people to watch his TED talks. His latest book, May Contain Lies: How Stories, Statistics, and Studies Exploit Our Biases—And What We Can Do About It, arrives at exactly the right moment for our post-truth era, where everyone's an expert and every statistic can be bent to tell the story you want to hear.

Related Episodes:

• 245. Family Firm with Emily Oster
• 311. Nobody’s Fool with Daniel Simons and Christopher Chabris
• 382. The Anxious Generations? The Conversation We Should be Having About Kids, Technology, and Mental Health

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Not knowing the answer can feel unsettling, but what if uncertainty was actually something to embrace? In this episode, Michael sits down with Elizabeth Weingarten to explore that idea. Elizabeth, whose work spans top publications and research programs, shares insights from her book How to Fall in Love with Questions: A New Way to Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. Their conversation unpacks why we often resist uncertainty and how curiosity, community, and authenticity can transform the way we approach life’s biggest unknowns. She also reflects on the role of genuine self-expression in relationships, inviting listeners to see how asking better questions might open the door to a more fulfilling life.

Listen and Learn: 

• Why certain uncertainties unsettle us most, and how our brains and biology shape our struggle to live with the unknown
• Elizabeth’s powerful "question tree" metaphor that categorizes the types of questions we ask in life, from quick-answer "peach" questions to lifelong "heartwood" questions, and how letting go of "dead leaf" questions helps us grow
• How our search for quick answers can keep us stuck in uncertainty—and why learning to sit with unanswerable questions and ask better ones is key to real growth and self-understanding
• Embracing open-ended questions instead of binary ones for deeper self-understanding, growth, and freedom from the need for control
• What it truly means to “live” and “love” life’s big questions, moving beyond the shallow advice to “embrace uncertainty” and instead learning how our questions can guide growth, clarity, and connection to our future selves
• Recognizing and refining the right questions in your life, ones that lead you back to your values, open new possibilities, and move you forward instead of getting stuck in fear, “shoulds,” or rumination

Listen to POTC ad-free for just $5 a month by becoming a Mega Supporter on Patreon! Or, support the podcast with a one-time donation at Buy Me A Coffee!

Resources: 

• Elizabeth’s Book, How to Fall in Love with Questions: A New Way to Thrive in Times of Uncertainty: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780063335134
• Elizabeth’s Website: www.elizabethweingarten.com
• Elizabeth’s Substack: Time Travel for Beginners
• Yael’s Article: How Practical Wisdom Helps Us Cope with Radical Uncertainty (By Yael Schonbrun and Barry Schwartz)

About Elizabeth Weingarten

Elizabeth Weingarten is a journalist and applied behavioral scientist who works at the intersection of science and storytelling. She has been part of the editorial staffs of The Atlantic, Slate, and Qatar Today, and also served as managing editor of Behavioral Scientist. Her writing has appeared in outlets including The Atlantic, Slate, CNN, Financial Times, Harvard Business Review, and TIME. Beyond journalism, she has led research programs at the think tank New America, the consultancy ideas42, and the tech companies Torch and Udemy. Elizabeth lives in Northern California with her husband and son. You can learn more about her work at www.elizabethweingarten.com.

Related Episodes:

• 188. Unwinding Anxiety with Judson Brewer
• 349. The Hunger Habit with Judson Brewer
• 329. The Power of Curiosity with Scott Shigeoka
• 422. Mindwise with Nicholas Epley
• 303. Both/And Thinking with Marianne Lewis

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If you’re a parent navigating the ups and downs of your child’s food allergies, you know firsthand how anxiety can sneak in, whether it’s worrying about safety at school, birthday parties, or just trying to give your child some independence. 

In this episode of Psychologists Off the Clock, Tamara Hubbard joins Emily to talk about her new book, May Contain Anxiety: Managing the Overwhelm of Parenting Children with Food Allergies.

Their conversation doesn’t just stop at allergies, though; they dive into the bigger picture of parenting with anxiety and uncertainty and explore how anxiety, while a completely normal human experience, can sometimes take over if we don’t keep it in check. Tune in with us for practical strategies to help parents move away from over-controlling tendencies and toward building skills and confidence in their kids.

Listen and Learn: 

• Understanding the medical and emotional side of food allergies from what actually happens in the body, why they create such high anxiety for parents, and how uncertainty around reactions fuels guilt and fear
• Balancing fear with perspective and the difference between everyday vigilance and anxiety that takes over
• The “certainty trap” many allergy parents fall into, why control seeking feels protective but actually creates burnout, conflict, and limits a child’s growth, and how shifting from control to skill building can better support both parents and kids
• The “over-avoidance trap” food allergy parents can fall into, how anxiety can push families to restrict more than is medically necessary, and why finding a realistic, personalized sense of “safe enough” (with support from an allergist) is key to breaking free from constant fear
• Practical strategies for allergy parents to balance safety with living fully by shifting from fear-driven "what if" thinking to action-focused "if then" plans
• The “Goldilocks principle” for food allergy parenting and finding the just right balance of caution and calm that keeps kids safe without overwhelming anxiety
• How parents can start building confidence and safety skills in young children with food allergies (or other health conditions) from an early age, setting the foundation for independence and calm navigation as they grow
• Why the middle childhood years can help kids build self-advocacy and take ownership of their allergy care, so they are ready for adolescence
• How parents balance safety with flexibility can shape teens’ confidence and independence in managing food allergies while keeping anxiety in check

Resources: 

• Tamara’s Book, May Contain Anxiety: Managing the Overwhelm of Parenting Children with Food Allergies: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781421449579 
• Tamara’s Websites: https://www.foodallergycounselor.com/ and https://www.tamarahubbardlcpc.com/ 
• Connect with Tamara on Socials: @FoodAllergyCounselor and @TherapistTamara.

About Tamara Hubbard

With more than 20 years of experience and a marriage and family therapy degree, Tamara Hubbard, MA, LCPC is a licensed clinical professional counselor helping women and parents of children with food allergies find their “just right” balance between feeling overwhelmed and living fully. 

Tamara created The Food Allergy Counselor in 2018 to fill a much needed resource gap by offering evidence-based food allergy anxiety management, mindset, and parenting content. She also founded the Academy of Food Allergy Counseling and its Food Allergy Counseling Directory, and currently serves as its Chief Advisor. 

An active allied health member of professional allergy and immunology organizations, Tamara is a national speaker and holds advisory roles within the allergy community. Finally, her first book, May Contain Anxiety: Managing the Overwhelm of Parenting Children with Food Allergies with Johns Hopkins University Press comes out September 30th, 2025. 

Related Episodes:

• 424. Modern Anxiety with Noelle McWard Aquino
• 319. Autonomy-Supportive Parenting with the AMAZING Emily Edlynn
• 266. Future Tense with Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
• 260. Health Anxiety with Karen Lynn Cassiday
• 253. Free Range Kids with Lenore Skenazy
• 222. Living With Food Allergies with Tamara Hubbard
• 94. Parenthood in the Age of Fear with Kim Brooks

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College life can be exciting, but it’s also full of unique challenges that can really take a toll on mental health. 

In this episode, Debbie sits down with Colleen Ehrnstrom, Audrey Gilfillan, and Alison West to break down what’s really going on with students’ mental well-being. 

They talk about the ups and downs of transitions, gaining independence, and handling academic pressure, all while navigating bigger societal stressors like the pandemic. The conversation highlights why it’s so important to have mental health support built right into academic departments, and the guests share practical tips that both students and faculty can use. 

You’ll also hear about topics like college culture expectations, the Dunning-Kruger effect, imposter feelings, and why showing yourself self-compassion and understanding your emotions matters. By the end, you’ll come away with insights that can help anyone in a college community foster better mental health and overall well-being.

Listen and Learn: 

• Why college is such a challenging transition for students, who must create structure, discover their values, and learn through mistakes while adapting to new freedoms and pressures
• Understanding individual stress matters in college counseling, which can help normalize challenges and guide appropriate mental health support
• How young adulthood is a powerful time for growth
• Embracing uncertainty and connecting through shared human experiences helps us navigate overwhelming and unpredictable times
• Embedding mental health clinicians directly in university departments helps faculty support students effectively, bridging academic and emotional needs
• Understanding and “decompiling” your thoughts and emotions helps you work with them instead of against them
• Why the imposter phenomenon is widespread, especially among high achievers and those stepping outside their comfort zone, and how comparing your inner doubts to others’ outward confidence can intensify it
• True growth comes from building competence, not chasing confidence, and feeling uncomfortable is part of the learning process
• Tips for navigating college, including managing your expectations, giving yourself grace for mistakes, seeking support when needed, and starting small with healthy habits

Resources: 

• Decompile Your Mind: An Engineer’s Guide to Thoughts and Emotions: https://www.amazon.com/Decompile-Your-Mind-Engineers-Thoughts/dp/B0DPXB17MV  
• Connect with Colleen Ehrnstrom, Audrey Gilfillan, and Alison West
• https://www.colorado.edu/counseling/about-caps/our-providers/colleen-ehrnstrom 
• https://www.colorado.edu/counseling/about-caps/our-providers/audrey-gilfillan
• https://www.colorado.edu/counseling/about-caps/our-providers/alison-west
• Imposter No More: Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781538724804 

About Dr. Colleen Ehrnstrom

Dr. Colleen Ehrnstrom, PhD is a licensed clinical psychologist and one of the managers of the Embedded Program at the Counseling and Psychiatric Services (CAPS) at the University of Colorado Boulder. She specializes in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and enjoys working with college students, supporting their mental health during a critical time of personal and academic development. She is the co-author of End the Insomnia Struggle: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Get to Sleep and Stay Asleep and regularly presents and trains on ACT and behavioral sleep strategies. Dr. Ehrnstrom is dedicated to supporting mental health through evidence-based, mindfulness-informed care.

About Audrey Gilfillan

Audrey Gilfillan is a licensed professional counselor and works as an Embedded Therapist in the College of Engineering and Applied Science at the University of Colorado at Boulder. With a background in academic coaching, career counseling, and college mental health, Audrey specializes supporting college students as they navigate the intersection of their academic goals and mental health. Audrey co-authored Decompile Your Mind: An Engineer’s Guide to Thoughts and Emotions. She co-founded Applied Wellness Initiatives to help educators and managers effectively support mental health and performance in the workplace.

About Alison West

Alison West is a licensed professional counselor and addiction specialist who works as an Embedded Therapist in the College of Engineering and Applied Science at CU Boulder. Prior to working in higher education, Alison worked in community mental health, providing direct support through ongoing therapy, crisis response, and case management. Alison is passionate about supporting young adults as they navigate the challenges of an ever-changing world. She is the co-author of Decompile Your Mind: An Engineer’s Guide to Thoughts and Emotions and the co-founder of Applied Wellness Initiatives. She finds fulfillment in helping professionals bring mental health awareness and practices into their work and academic communities.

Related Episodes: 

7. Insomnia: Strategies to Stop Struggling with Sleep with Alisha Brosse

189. Imposter Syndrome with Jill and Debbie

321. Imposter No More with Jill Stoddard

274. Quarterlife: The Search for Self in Early Adulthood with Satya Doyle Byock – Psychologists Off the Clock

324. Toxic Achievement Culture with Jennifer Wallace  

303. Both/And Thinking with Marianne Lewis

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Can you truly change your personality in ways that make your life feel fuller and more in line with who you want to be?

In this episode of Psychologists Off the Clock, Jill sits down with Olga Khazan, author of Me But Better, to explore that question in a way that feels relatable and inspiring. Olga shares her journey of becoming more outgoing and less anxious, mixing scientific insights with honest reflections on the challenges she faced, showing that real change is possible and something you can actively pursue.

They also explore the Big Five personality traits and how intentional shifts in your personality can boost your happiness and overall well-being. Olga offers practical strategies you can start using right away and reminds you that the goal is not to impress anyone else but to create a version of yourself that feels healthier, more authentic, and more satisfying to live with every day.

Listen and Learn: 

• How personality, once thought to be fixed, can actually change over time 
• How personality is shaped by both genetics and environment
• The Big Five personality model—what each trait means, how factors like conscientiousness overlap with neurodivergence such as ADHD, cultural caveats to the model, and how personality can shift over time through intentional habits and mindset
• How practicing new behaviors, like being more extroverted, can expand your authentic self rather than diminish it
• Why stepping outside of your comfort zone, even if it feels “inauthentic” at first, is actually part of growth, showing how personality is fluid
• How mindfulness, meditation, and acceptance practices can reduce anxiety and neuroticism
• The Personality Assessor Test and why results can sometimes surprise us, and how to embrace both strengths and limitations while exploring change or acceptance through openness, flexibility, and values

Resources:

• Olga’s Book, Me, But Better: The Science and Promise of Personality Change: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781668012543 
• Olga’s Website: Olgakhazan.com;  https://olgakhazan.com/
• Connect with Olga on Social Media: 
• Instagram: @olganator, https://www.instagram.com/olganator/
• X: https://x.com/olgakhazan
• Olga’s Substack: https://olgakhazan.substack.com/
• Find More of Olga’s Writing at https://www.theatlantic.com/ 
• Free Personality Test: https://www.personalityassessor.com/ 

About Olga Khazan

Olga Khazan is a staff writer for The Atlantic and the author of Weird: The Power of Being an Outsider in an Insider World and ME, BUT BETTER: The Science and Promise of Personality Change. She has also written for The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, Vox, and other publications. She is a two-time recipient of the International Reporting Project’s Journalism Fellowship and winner of the 2017 National Headliner Award for Magazine Online Writing. She lives with her husband and son in Northern Virginia.

Related Episodes:

• 77. Acceptance and Commitment Therapy with Jill Stoddard
• 102. A Liberated Mind with Steven Hayes
• 112. Nature vs. Nurture: Why Temperament Matters with Debbie and Yael
• 343. Heartbreak with Florence Williams
• 347. Job Changes & Career Pivots with Paula Brand
• 363. Worrying Is Optional with Ben Eckstein
• 385. Oliver Burkeman on Embracing Your Limitations

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Anxiety often feels overwhelming, but at its core, it’s your mind and body working hard to protect you.

In this episode, therapist and author of Anxiety Unpacked, Noelle McWard Aquino, unpacks the complex nature of modern anxiety, from the body’s nervous system responses to the thought patterns that fuel it.

Noelle introduces her framework of three root causes: catastrophizing, control, and distorted beliefs, and explains how these show up in daily life. You’ll learn how to tell the difference between anxiety and intuition, and why getting more comfortable with uncertainty can help you build real resilience.

You’ll also pick up practical tools like breathwork, reframing distorted beliefs, and focusing on your values so you can navigate anxiety with more clarity and confidence.

Listen and Learn: 

• A fresh, accessible perspective on anxiety that goes beyond diagnoses, showing how it’s a universal human experience with practical tools to help anyone navigate it
• Why anxiety is not a personal failing but an understandable response to today’s constant threats, information overload, and technology-driven pressures
• How to reframe anxiety, not as a flaw to eliminate but as a signal to honor, by creating space for it, discerning facts from “what if” stories, and guiding it toward purposeful action rooted in values, capacity, and connection
• The five universal truths of anxiety
• How to tell the difference between anxiety’s fear-driven, questioning voice and intuition’s calm, steady, and certain inner knowing
• The three root causes of anxiety: catastrophizing, control, and distorted beliefs, and how understanding these patterns helps address anxiety at its root for lasting change

Resources: 

• Noelle’s book, Anxiety Unpacked: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781960876898 
• Noelle’s Website: https://noellemcwardaquino.com/ 
• Noelle’s Psychology Today article: When Anxiety Makes Sense: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/unpacking-anxiety/202506/when-anxiety-makes-sense  
• Connect with Noelle on Social Media: 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/noelle-mcward-192473b 
• https://www.instagram.com/noellemcwardaquino/ 

About Noelle McWard Aquino

Noelle McWard Aquino is a Chicago-based therapist who specializes in the treatment of anxiety disorders. She is the author of Anxiety Unpacked: Discover Your Type and Recover Your Peace, a bestselling book that helps readers identify and work with the specific patterns driving their anxiety. Her work has been featured in publications including Psychology Today and Psychotherapy Networker. Noelle speaks regularly to both clinical and general audiences, training therapists in her framework for understanding anxiety and helping individuals develop more effective, compassionate responses to it.  

Related Episodes:

• 334. Our Polyvagal World with Stephen & Seth Porges
• 313. ACT-Informed Exposure for Anxiety with Brian Pilecki and Brain Thompson
• 250. Anxiety and Perfectionism with Clarissa Ong
• 177. Mind-Body Practices for Stress and Ovewrhelm with Rebekkah LaDyne
• 188. Unwinding Anxiety with Judson Brewer

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Why do some groups spark energy and creativity while others feel draining and tense? 

Taking on this topic, we sit down with Colin Fisher, the author of The Collective Edge: Unlocking the Secret Power of Groups. We dig into what really sets groups apart from one-on-one partnerships, how social norms and psychological safety shape the way groups function, and why synergy can feel so unpredictable yet incredibly powerful.

Colin shares stories and research from his book, busting some common myths about group dynamics, the risks of trying to “sort” people into roles, and how relaunching a team can reset unhealthy patterns. From jazz improvisation to Nobel Prize-winning teams, this conversation is packed with insights and practical takeaways for anyone who wants to get the most out of working and living with others.

Listen and Learn: 

• What makes a group different from a one-on-one relationship, and why does that difference matter?
• Why relying on “sorting hat” thinking like personality tests or rigid categories can limit group success and fuel unhelpful divisions
• Why we often overlook the power of groups
• Can you spot the invisible norms shaping your group before they push you toward extreme or unhealthy behaviors?
• How can bringing in new perspectives or encouraging psychological safety keep your group balanced and open-minded?
• What is psychological safety?
• How can groups achieve that magical sense of synergy?
• Creating high-performing teams
• Relaunching groups to reset unhealthy patterns and improve team dynamics

Resources:

• Colin’s Book: The Collective Edge: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780593715345 
• Colins Website: https://colinmfisher.com/ 
• Colin’s Substack: https://colinmfisher.substack.com/
• Connect with Colin on Social Media: 
• https://www.linkedin.com/in/colinmfisher?originalSubdomain=uk
• https://www.instagram.com/trumpetfisher/ 
• Undoing Project by Michael Lewis: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780393354775 
• Work, Parent, Thrive by Yael Schonbrun: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9781611809657  
• Social Intelligence Test: https://socialintelligence.labinthewild.org/mite/

About Colin Fisher

Since his days as a professional jazz trumpet player, Colin Fisher has been fascinated by group dynamics. As Associate Professor of Organizations and Innovation at University College London's School of Management, Colin’s research has uncovered the hidden processes of helping groups and teams in situations requiring creativity, improvisation, and complex decision-making. He has written about group dynamics for media outlets including BBC, Forbes, Harvard Business Review, NPR, and The Times. 

Related Episodes

• 215. How to Change with Katy Milkman
• 234. The Power of Us with Dominic Packer

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Think about the times you’ve assumed someone’s behavior revealed exactly what they were thinking. Nicholas Epley, our guest for this episode, explains this as correspondence bias and, through his book Mindwise, teaches us about the concept of correspondence bias and explains how we often believe that a person's actions correspond directly to their mental state. 

You’ll hear about his research into social cognition and how it reveals that while humans are generally adept at reading others, we frequently overestimate our accuracy. 

The episode also covers practical experiments on how engaging with strangers can significantly boost our happiness, despite our fears and misconceptions, and the importance of curiosity in overcoming social anxieties and making positive first impressions. 

Listen and Learn: 

• How our unique “sixth sense” of mind reading, our ability to understand, predict, and connect with others’ invisible thoughts, shapes human connection and survival
• Why our ability to read other people’s minds is far less accurate than we think, and what makes understanding others such a difficult challenge
• Why we often overestimate how well we understand those closest to us, and how even long-term partners are not as accurate at reading each other’s thoughts and feelings as they believe
• What drives our brains to form first impressions in an instant, how overconfidence shapes the way we read others, and why moment-to-moment cues like facial expressions play a bigger role in social interactions than we often realize?
• How can you make a great first impression without overthinking body language or tricks, simply by staying curious and genuinely interested in the person you’re talking to?
• How correspondence bias makes us assume people’s actions reflect their true thoughts and feelings, why this can lead to misjudgments, and how showing confidence, curiosity, or kindness can positively influence how others respond to you
• Can striking up a conversation with a stranger boost happiness more than staying to yourself, even though we usually expect the interaction to go badly?

Resources: 

• Mindwise: Why We Misunderstand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want: https://bookshop.org/a/30734/9780307743565 
• Nicholas’ website: https://www.nicholasepley.com/

About Nicholas Epley

Nicholas Epley is the John Templeton Keller Distinguished Service Professor of Behavior Science and Director of the Center for Decision Research at the University of Chicago Booth School of Business. He studies social cognition—how thinking people think about other thinking people—to understand why smart people so routinely misunderstand each other. He teaches an ethics and well-being course to MBA students called Designing a Good Life. His research has been featured by the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, CNN, Wired, and National Public Radio, among many others, and has been funded by the National Science Foundation and the Templeton Foundation. He has been awarded the 2008 Theoretical Innovation Award from the Society for Personality and Social Psychology, the 2011 Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution to Psychology from the American Psychological Association, the 2015 Book Prize for the Promotion of Social and Personality Science, and the 2018 Career Trajectory Award from the Society for Experimental Social Psychology. Epley was named a "professor to watch" by the Financial Times, one of the "World's Best 40 under 40 Business School Professors" by Poets and Quants, and one of the 100 Most Influential in Business Ethics by Ethisphere. He is the author of Mindwise: How We Understand What Others Think, Believe, Feel, and Want, and of a forthcoming book to be published in the fall of 2026 tentatively titled, Dare to connect

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