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What are some of the keys to helping a woman experience pleasure, and orgasms? If you’re a woman and you’re not having orgasms - and you want to be - then this episode could be really helpful - sure, for you - but especially for your partner. Maybe leave this episode’s transcript under their pillow? This week, our guest is Ian Kerner, New York Times bestselling author of She Comes First: The Thinking Man’s Guide to Pleasuring a Woman. Ian is a licensed psychotherapist, and nationally recognized sexuality counselor who specializes in sex therapy, couples therapy and working with individuals on a range of relational issues. Today Ian Kerner shares how he has helped couples create more intimate and satisfying sexual relationships and he addresses the knowledge gap that many of us have about a woman’s sexual anatomy.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

Resources:

Visit Ian Kerner’s website to learn more about his work.

Pick up your copy of Ian Kerner’s book, She Comes First: The Thinking Man’s Guide to Pleasuring a Woman .

FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship

Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE)

Visit www.neilsattin.com/ian to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Ian Kerner.

Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

Transcript:

Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome, to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. Today I have with me Ian Kerner who is a nationally recognized sexuality counselor specializing in sex therapy, couples therapy, and working with individuals on a range of related  issues. He's regularly quoted as an expert in various media outlets with recent appearances on CNN, The Today Show, The Dr. Oz show, and now...he's here on Relationship Alive. Ian is The New York Times best­selling author of numerous books including "She Comes First", which is what we're  here to talk about today, and I should say that "She Comes First" is subtitled "The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman". In addition to being a clinical fellow of the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapists, Ian is also certified by the American Association of Sexuality  Educators, Counselors, and Therapists - also known as AASECT, with a doctorate in clinical sexology. If you download the transcript of today’s episode you will ALSO get a bonus show guide with highlights and action items from the show. You can do that at neilsattin.com/ian (I-A-N) or by texting the word PASSION to the number 33444 and following the instructions.

Ian Kerner - thank you so much for joining us today on Relationship Alive!

Ian Kerner: Thanks, Neil, my pleasure.

Neil Sattin: Great. Well, we are here primarily to talk about She Comes First, which is a book about how to give pleasure to a woman and before we get started I was wondering if you could just let our listeners know a little bit more about you and how you came to write this book.

Ian Kerner: Sure, well, I guess that there are two ways I came to write the book. One is sort of the professional path and the other is the personal path. Professionally, as a sex therapist at the time that I wrote the book and even through today, one of the questions I get asked most often by women is “what can I do to have an orgasm during intercourse, and what am I doing wrong?”. So I really wrote the book as a response to that question. I wanted to let women know you're not doing anything wrong. It's just that, you know, a lot of the men that you may happen to be partnered with are what I would call ill-cliterate, they know more about what's under the hood of a car than the hood of a clitoris and it's often through no fault of their own, and there's nothing wrong with you. It's just that we are sort of all trapped in what I'd call the Intercourse Discourse in terms of thinking of sex often in one way and that once you kinda break out of the intercourse discourse and think of other ways of pleasuring, and once men understand that the clitoris is the powerhouse of the female orgasm and how to stimulate the clitoris, then you really won't be asking the question, “what can I do to have an orgasm during the intercourse?”

Ian Kerner: You may not be having intercourse at all, or you may be having intercourse plus other activities. So that's kind of the professional path. Personally, I suffered for many years from a very common sexual dysfunction, premature ejaculation. It's actually more prevalent than erectile disorder but certainly much less talked about, and it's an issue that leaves many men feeling sexually crippled, leaves many partners feeling frustrated and dissatisfied. And I suffered quite a deal from this... Quite a bit from this issue to the point that it affected my desire to date, and my desire to make love to a woman, certainly my confidence and my self-esteem and...

Ian Kerner: When I began to learn more about female sexuality and about the power of the clitoris as sort of the centerpiece of female sexual arousal and I was able to learn how to pleasure a woman in other ways outside of just intercourse and with just my penis and I began to make love with not just my penis, but my mouth and my mind and my hands and every other part of my mind, body, and soul, it really liberated me and actually that liberation and that confidence and self-esteem became one of the most important tools that I gained at my disposal to manage premature ejaculation.

Ian Kerner: So that is sort of the professional and personal pathway that led to writing She Comes First and I've been, you know, amazed over the years in terms of how the book has resonated and continues to sell and I hear not just from men but from women as well, who learned from the book and give it to their partners. And probably I'm most flattered when I hear from a parent who says, whether it's a mom or a dad, "I want my son to be sexually competent and to be respectful of female sexuality and understand female sexuality. And so I gave your book to my 18-year-old son." So that's a little bit of background to She Comes First.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, that's great and it's really interesting to me because... Well, for one thing, we had Wendy Maltz on the show to talk about sexual healing and I got connected with you through Wendy and that was without really even knowing what you had done and what you were writing about. And then on the show, we've also talked a lot with a few people in particular, Diana Richardson, who wrote "Heart of Tantra" and then also Marnia Robinson, who wrote "Cupid's Poisoned Arrow", about both non-orgasmic sex and also the problems that orgasms can cause, particularly for men, in disconnecting them from their partner. And I'm bringing both of these things up because as I was reading your book, which is basically about how to perform cunnilingus, like that's what this book is about, and it does it in a very informative way, where I learned a lot about female sexuality that I didn't even know necessarily, and it's... I wanted to bring this actually to our audience because sometimes, for one thing, you may just want to go for it and have orgasms and she wanted to have some great methods and knowledge at your disposal on how to do that, so you're not just winging it.

Neil Sattin: And I appreciated how in the book you brought up that most men actually don't have a lot of sources of information for how to please a woman. It's maybe the locker room, probably porn and apart from that, there's not a lot of guidance being offered. So I liked how you offer it from that perspective as a way to help bring people up the curve.

Ian Kerner: Yeah, no, thank you. I mean, certainly on one level, the book is a very practical guide in how to pleasure a woman and how to, you know, create or get help to mutually co-construct and create orgasmic satisfaction and that is, I believe, through cunnilingus, not only in my own experiences, but you know, study after study shows that women, not that they prefer oral sex to intercourse, just that they most more consistently orgasm from cunnilingus as opposed to intercourse. That has a lot to do with the distance between the clitoris and the vaginal entrance, and in some women, it can be anywhere from two centimeters to four centimeters and many sexual positions or most sexual positions miss the clitoris altogether and the greater the distance, they call it the vaginal clitoral distance, the greater the distance between the clitoris with the clitoral glans, the head of the clitoris, what's visible and the vaginal entrance, the greater that distance, the harder it is for a woman to orgasm through intercourse. So, certainly manual stimulation, whether with your hand or with a sex toy and oral stimulation are more direct and consistent ways of eliciting orgasms. And I wanted and I hope that the book... I think actually the staying power of the book has been that it's a little more than just a cunnilingus guide and that it is both a real introduction to understanding female sexuality and hopefully there's a little bit of a fun philosophy in it as well.

Ian Kerner: And I just came across a really interesting statistic that related to porn use and that heterosexual women are the biggest consumers of lesbian porn. So heterosexual women are the biggest consumers of lesbian porn and that's for a couple of reasons. One, that heterosexual porn often really objectifies women and that's not a turn on to women who are watching porn. And then of course lesbian porn features a lot more cunnilingus. And when you look at the top search terms by women that women enter into porn sites... How explicit is this show, Neil? How G-rated, PG-rated or R-rated do you want me to keep it?

Neil Sattin: We're good, we rate it explicit on iTunes.

Ian Kerner: Okay. So when you look at the top five search...

Neil Sattin: However, let me just interrupt you and say if you're listening with your eight-year-old in the car right now, it might be a good time to hit pause and then come back to it.

[chuckle]

Ian Kerner: Okay, I would say you should have hit pause like 10 minutes ago.

[laughter]

Ian Kerner: But if you need to hit pause now go ahead and hit pause now. But the top terms are things like "pussy licking", "pussy eating", "pussy touching". I mean, they're all terms that really come back to clitoral stimulation and particularly oral stimulation of the clitoris. So I guess, I just wanted to provide a little bit of context and both around the importance of direct clitoral stimulation and the way that I'm trying through the book to take an act that's traditionally considered foreplay and turn it into coreplay, a complete act of love making that really vouchsafes and guarantees almost the female orgasm.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, I love that, especially because we are arriving at a very similar place where we're talking about expanding the definition of intimacy and expanding what it means to be making love with your partner, coming at it from different directions. But you arrive at this very similar place which is, how are you really exploring sensuality with your partner and are you doing it in a way that's actually not objectifying your partner, but really about tapping into what really makes them tick and feel good? So let's start with that because one of the most fascinating things in reading your book was that there are 18 parts to the clitoris, and I'm not expecting you to necessarily remember what all of those are right here now.

Ian Kerner: [chuckle] Okay.

Neil Sattin: But I was like, "What are you even talking about?" And then you went on to elucidate. And so I'm hoping that you can just give us a little bit of a taste of what you're talking about.

Ian Kerner: So male and female sexual anatomy, although they look very different, they're actually homologous and that means during the early months of gestation, when a woman is pregnant with a baby, the baby isn't really differentiated as male or female until around the 12th or 13th week and up until that time, the baby doesn't really have an assigned sex, and all of the tissue that's ultimately going to form the genital structures, it's really up for grabs, which way is it going to go, male or female? And then around the 12th or 13th week, there's some different bursts of hormones, namely testosterone. And the fetus is either differentiated as male or female, but all of the same tissue is used and male sexual anatomy will grow outward into a penis and scrotum with testicles and it's all very visible.

Ian Kerner: But those same structures really exist for women, they just kind of grow... Everything grows inwards. And so what you end up seeing is a vulva that includes a vaginal entrance and inner and outer labia, as well as what we would also call the clitoris. Really what we tend to think of as the clitoris and sometimes people refer to it as a bump or the little man in the boat or the pea in the pod. I mean, there's a lot of sort of vernacular around the clitoris but really that what you're seeing is the head of the clitoris, or the clitoral glans just as a guy has a head on his penis, and really for a woman that clitoral glans is really just kind of the tip of the iceberg. And there's a whole internal development of sexual anatomy and really the latest science is really showing that all of that material really encompasses what you would consider sort of like the clitoral network, and so that even the g-spot is probably just the back and roots of the clitoris.

Ian Kerner: And so that's really what I mean when I say that the clitoris has 18 parts, that the part that we normally associate with... Usually are generally associated with the clitoris again, is really just the tip of the iceberg and there are other parts that are internal and external that constitute the totality of the clitoral network, and it would be extremely... It's really rather rare for a woman to really experience arousal and certainly orgasm without clitoral stimulation.

Neil Sattin: Right. So even if you're having, say vaginal orgasms, that's probably because you're stimulating the part of the clitoris that is actually surrounding...

Ian Kerner: Correct, correct. And those... That part of... Those parts of the clitoris tend to be either on the surface of the vulva or within the first inch or two of the vaginal entrance and the deeper you go into the vagina, the less nerve endings, there are... The less sensitivity there is. And so really when you think about making love, making love to a woman, rather than thinking vaginally, you should really be thinking clitorally. And rather than thinking about penetration, you should be thinking about stimulation and rather than thinking about really internal stimulation, you should be thinking about external stimulation of the vulva.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, so hence what you were talking about earlier, about how the penetration really doesn't even have to happen at all.

Ian Kerner: No, it really doesn't. And that's why, you know, when men obsess over penis size, not to say that size is totally irrelevant, or that size doesn't matter, or that it doesn't feel good to a woman to have a penis inside a vagina. I'm not trying to discredit entirely the role of the penis in pleasuring a woman, but I don't think that really size is as relevant as men think it is.

Neil Sattin: And when you're talking to people about performing oral sex on a woman, what kind of problems or obstacles do you run into around actually someone diving into doing that?

Ian Kerner: Okay, well, I mean, first of all, it is about thinking of oral sex, not just as sort of an optional appetizer but is a required entree and understanding, thinking of oral sex, clitoral stimulation as a complete act of love making that often can include the female orgasm. It's also not just what you're doing, but when you're doing it and being tuned into a woman's arousal arc and thinking about it as a dance in which you are both participants in which she's often leading the dance in order to cue to you the type of stimulation that at the time feels good and right. I mean, as we sort of know the more you get aroused, the more tolerance you have for sensation. So certain things that may feel not so great at the beginning may feel really great towards the end of an act of love making closer to orgasm. The other thing that I deal with is probably just self-esteem issues, misconceptions. I often am working with couples in which ironically, believe it or not, it's often the male partner who's very eager to engage in oral sex, really loves going down on his partner, really enjoys it, wants to sort of liberate himself from the tyranny of his penis.

Ian Kerner: I'm using rather a hyperbolic language today on this podcast. And very often, it's a female partner who has genital self-esteem issues, so maybe she feels like she doesn't look beautiful down there, or taste wonderful, or smell is great, or maybe she feels like she's taking too long. Women often can bring a lot of anxiety around receiving oral sex, and for many women, especially women who have experienced faking orgasms, it's sometimes easier to give pleasure than it is to receive pleasure. I know a lot of women who really enjoy giving pleasure and can really participate in that way, but when it comes to receiving pleasure, they tend to get very anxious or very inhibited. And so a lot of times that's the point at which I'm kind of entering into this situation and certainly there are men who are ambivalent about oral sex who don't understand it as being important, who don't understand clitoral stimulation, who maybe have had some negative experiences in the past, or were brought up to feel that maybe a woman's vulva or vagina is unhygienic in some ways. So there can be a lot of myths and misconceptions, and opportunities for discomfort around oral sex.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, that brings up so many questions from me. I guess the first one would be, well, let's talk about those hang ups. So if someone is really feeling self-conscious about their own vagina or vulva, how do you work with someone like that so that they can relax into receiving?

Ian Kerner: Well, it's sort of like throwing a stone into a pond and watching the ripples. How close to the stone are you going to get? Like at what point do you address the rippling? Do you think that... Well, really, I want to be in the kind of relationship that lends itself to intimate connected sex, and I really need to focus more on the positivity in the relationship and being in a sex-positive relationship and being able to communicate openly and constructively and arousingly around sex and then maybe you need to get closer to the sex act itself. And what are you really doing to stimulate desire and arousal? Some studies really show that the closer a woman gets to orgasm the more parts of the brain that are associated with stress, anxiety, high emotion deactivate and that as a woman is having an orgasm, she's actually entering into almost a kind of a trance-like state. And so what is happening to facilitate that process of deactivation where a woman can shut down those stress centers in the brain and those anxiety centers? And what are you doing in the actual environment around sex to create a sex-conducive environment to actually create sort of a love nest? And does that require music? Does it require lighting? Does it require certain types of being dressed or undressed? Like what does it take for a woman to feel really comfortable?

Ian Kerner: And then I think the most important factor is really to be able to hear from a guy, hopefully a guy with whom she loves and has a secure, trusting attachment that she can really let go with, to hear from a guy, to be reassured like, "You are absolutely beautiful. I love doing this and it's arousing to me and I get so turned on by this and the longer it takes actually, the more I'm just postponing my own gratification and the more intense my own gratification is going to be." I think so many women just wonder, "Does he like doing this or is it a chore?" And you ask so many men and they say, "Well, I love doing it. It's the last thing from a chore. It's completely arousing. I get into my own kind of zen headspace." And then just the way you would look into a woman's eyes and let her know how beautiful you find her, I think, you want to be able to let her know how beautiful you find her vulva and you want to contribute to, again, that concept of genital self-esteem, positive genital self-esteem, that doesn't come from just your own sense of your body, like you need to be told by your partner that you are beautiful. And I think we often are focused on, "Oh, your hair looks great, or that dress looks great, or you look so hot and sexy right now." And we need to be able to extend those compliments to our mutual genitals.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah and I noticed you were using the pronoun he but, I mean, this can apply to both...

Ian Kerner: Right. Absolutely, absolutely. I didn't mean to take the words out of your mouth, but yes, it can apply to... I work with a lot of lesbian women who have bought She Comes First because they may have some inhibitions around oral sex or they want to be more proficient. And so, yes, I didn't mean to be gender-specific although I do have to say, I didn't write the book in a gender-neutral way. A lot of sex books and I've written a bunch of them can be written in a gender-neutral way, but I really wanted to send a specific message to heterosexual men.

Neil Sattin: Yeah and probably rightly so, because if nothing else, we don't have a woman's body, so we don't have... And in fact, our penises can probably take a lot more and a lot different kinds of stimulation that we don't even think about than we might practice if we didn't know any better when we are with a woman.

Ian Kerner: Yeah, I think that's true. When you look at the age at which men start having nocturnal emissions or wet dreams and they start masturbating and having their first orgasms, there's a huge concentration all in those early teen years, 13, 14, 15, and men have their first ejaculations and they figure out how to give them themselves these ejaculations repeatedly, and for most men orgasm and sex are very tied together, and most men wouldn't really think twice if you ask them, “do you know how to give yourself an orgasm?” But when you look at women, it's a very different story across the board. Women have their first orgasms at vastly different ages, many women who have had orgasms early in their teen years don't necessarily know exactly how to replicate them. Even today, I have a number of women in my practice who weren't really sure they've ever had orgasms. They've certainly enjoyed sex and they've felt a lot of arousal, but they're not sure that they've had orgasms.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. One thing that you mentioned in just a few moments ago, it came out as part of how you reassure a partner, but I heard you talking about this what you call The Three Assurances. So I'm wondering if we can just enumerate those for people listening, so they know exactly what you're talking about that... because these seem really key.

Ian Kerner: Yeah, do you mind if I go grab the book off my shelf then? I don't have it, so...

[overlapping conversation]

Neil Sattin: You know what I can... I'll read them out loud.

Ian Kerner: Oh, that would be lovely.

Neil Sattin: Because I have it right in front of me.

Ian Kerner: Why don't you do that? Yeah, well, okay.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, I didn't mean this for this to be a pop quiz...

Ian Kerner: No, no, no, no, but I think the book says it better than I would just impromptu.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, so what you write are, "To that end, the three assurances of the cunnilinguist manifesto are as follows: Number one, going down on her turns you on. You enjoy it as much as she does." So, I would paraphrase that, something like your pleasure gives me pleasure.

Ian Kerner: Absolutely.

Neil Sattin: "Number two, there's no rush. She has all the time in the world. You want to savor every moment." So that's taking the time pressure off and letting it just be what it is. And I have a question about that, but I'll come back to it.

Ian Kerner: Okay.

Neil Sattin: And then the third thing is that, "Her scent is provocative, her taste powerful. It all emanates from the same beautiful essence." So basically, where you're saying the whole visceral experience of being there is great, is amazing for me. So the question I had about the second one, the all the time in the world is... The book is about bringing a woman to orgasm and yet we also talk a lot about not being orgasm-focused and being real sort of process-oriented instead of product-oriented.

Ian Kerner: Well, that's interesting, I don't... Yeah, let's talk about this. I don't think that there is anything necessarily wrong with being orgasm-focused. Our body participates in the process of arousal. There is a vasocongestion but blood flow to the genitals. There's myotonia, there's sexual tension being developed throughout the body and when those two processes kind of reach a tipping point, that muscular tension causes orgasm which is a flood of different sort of feel good hormones that are all triggered and connected to the release of sexual attention, and men and women have capacities to orgasm. Women have an innate capacity to experience multiple orgasms, and certainly, over the course of the life cycle, our relationship with orgasm changes and orgasms can feel differently and happen at different intervals. And we can lose our ability to have orgasms, but I don't think that there's anything wrong with being focused on, or wanting to have an orgasm, or wanting a partner to have an orgasm. And very often you will hear in the media and in writing and from professional therapists, many of whom are my colleagues, you'll sometimes hear, "Well, men tend to be orgasm-focused. Women tend to be more process-focused, more pleasure-focused, can enjoy sex without necessarily having an orgasm every time."

Ian Kerner: I think that there is some truth to that, but I also want to just say that I meet with women every day in my practice who are sometimes on their own or sometimes as part of a couple and they are often very, very, very frustrated that they're not having orgasms in the sex that they're having. And given the choice between not having an orgasm and having an orgasm, they would much rather have one. And certainly there are times in life when you don't always have an orgasm, but if you're in a relationship where you are having sex and you are consistently not having orgasms, I'm going to wager that there's going to be a lot of distress and dissatisfaction. And I think also that one of the reasons we often tend to say, "Oh, women can be pleasure-focused or less concerned, or care less about orgasms," is because as men, we don't live in a culture where men really consistently are tuned in, care, and can kind of elicit orgasms consistently. So I think a lot of that sort of verbiage around being pleasure-focused and non-orgasm-focused is also justifying a paradigm in which men always get to have orgasms during sex and women do not. And so... My dogs are barking incessantly in the background.

Neil Sattin: They agree with you.

[chuckle]

Ian Kerner: So I just want to challenge that assumption again. Listen, I understand that we should all be pleasure-focused. I've been working with a client for the last few weeks, and he's a gay man and he experiences erectile issues and delayed ejaculation, and one of the biggest changes he made on his OkCupid profile is saying that he is pleasure-focused as opposed to orgasm-focused. So I don't want to say that I don't understand the sentiment and that there aren't certain people for whom they really are going to be more pleasure-focused than orgasm-focused, but I also really don't want to discount the value and importance of orgasm, and I don't want to live in a world where we think that, "Oh, men consistently get to have their orgasms and women don't and that's okay, because women are more pleasure-focused and less orgasm-focused than men.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, I really appreciate your taking a stand for the orgasm just now. And it makes a lot of sense that the mechanism is there. So if the experience of not having an orgasm is about the inability to have an orgasm or about... Well, not being able to take the time to have an orgasm which is what brought us down this topic, this line of conversation, then yeah, don't let it be an excuse by any means.

Ian Kerner: Right. Now the other myth that's out there, it's not exactly a myth but it's sort of a semi-truth is that it takes women longer to get aroused and reach orgasm than it does men. And that's certainly something that I see in my practice all the time that I wrote in She Comes First, that I pretty much stand by. But when you also talk to women about masturbation and their sort of approach to self-pleasure, many if not most women will say, "Well, if I want to I can get there in three minutes." And it kind of starts to really resemble the way men masturbate and the road to orgasm can be as short for women as it is for men, that doesn't always translate into relational sex between two people, but I would say it's also something of a myth that it always takes women longer to reach orgasm, and that's so... Even in my reassurance about time, when you have all the time in the world then you're just happy to be there, it doesn't have to be a chore and it doesn't have to take so long.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. Yeah, and another thing I wanted to just clarify for you, too, is that when I say that here on the show we've talked a lot about non-orgasmic sex, we've been really approaching it from the perspective of well, for one thing, the way that for a man having an orgasm changes the level of connection that they're experiencing with their partner when they're making love. So in a way it's like taking it off the table so that you can actually prolong what's happening when you are doing the rest of the stuff, which is affecting you, obviously, biochemically and also energetically.

Ian Kerner: Absolutely. I would agree with that. Very often when I'm working with couples and there's a sex issue, or they're not having mutual orgasms, or they're not enjoying sex as much as they could or there's some kind of dysfunction, I'll often say, "Well, let's take orgasms and sex off the table and let's just sort of go back to a ground zero and build up from there."

Neil Sattin: Yeah, well, I think that this podcast episode would not be complete without talking about some actual techniques and details of how to do it and we don't have to cover everything. There's a lot of information in Ian's book, She Comes First, and that makes me think of another question but before I ask that, let's just talk about a few things that are important and that maybe you find to be the biggest problems when people are actually performing oral sex on a woman and how to do it differently?

Ian Kerner: I think one misconception is that the tongue or an oral sex, it's about penetration or that the tongue is kind of a stand-in for the penis. And then a lot of guys sort of focus on sort of showing off a little bit. And again, all of the nerve endings that really contribute to the female orgasm are located on the surface of the vulva. They respond to gentle stimulation rather than penetration. Some women have told me, when complaining about their partner's oral sex techniques, "Oh, it's like the running of the bulls in Spain, a mad stampede for my clit." That's not what you want to be doing. They're like, "When he goes down on me, it's like a cobra fighting a mongoose." It's just like a...you don't want to be that vicious cobra. You want to approach oral sex again as a dance in which a woman is often leading, sometimes just providing a very flat still tongue or a simple point of resistance.

Ian Kerner: There's an area of the vulva, of the clitoris, that's actually just above the clitoral glans which would be more in the area of the hood that kind of covers the glans but it's just that area, just sort of a little above and behind the clitoral glans that's called the Front Commissure and it's a little smooth area that's so kinda like the... As big as... Less than the size of a fingernail of your pinky, but there's a lot of nerve endings there and that area responds very well to pressure, not necessarily friction but pressure and if you just sort of get into a groove and get into a position where a woman is...

Ian Kerner: Where there's contact between the front commissure and either a tongue or even better, something that's firmer than a tongue like your front gum just above your tooth, if you just sort of raise your lip into kind of like a little bit of an Elvis Presley snarl and just kinda nestle your gum against that front commissure which is, again, not exactly on the clitoral glans but more sort of just above and behind the clitoral glans a little, and then just kinda get right into that. And let her do... Let her sort of set the routine. It's a little like when a woman is on top during the intercourse. One of the reasons the female superior position is the position that most consistently leads to orgasms for women is because in that position they can really get a lot of clitoral stimulation by pressing the clitoris against a guy's pelvis and pubic bone and also really control the frequency and pressure and the nature of the stimulation against the clitoris as well. If you can do the same thing during oral sex and really let her sort of press into a point of resistance, again, sort of like the soft area of your gum just above your tooth might be, I would say, is ideal.

Ian Kerner: And really let her lead the dance. In some ways you don't have to do anything more than that. You can certainly use your tongue to be providing, to be going back and forth against the clitoris or looking inside the vulva and the vaginal entrance, you can also... You should also certainly think about enhancing oral stimulation with manual stimulation, whether your fingers or a sex toy. You can raise your fingers and sort of press into the g-spot area, but certainly a combination of manual stimulation and oral stimulation and again where you're less of the lead dancer and more of following her lead is one approach that I often recommend for people who are just sort of entering the world of oral sex.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and one thing that made a huge impression on me was you mentioned stillness, as being really important as well as movement.

Ian Kerner: Uh-huh, yeah, and part of that is because men reach a point of ejaculatory inevitability and this has a lot to do with evolution and the importance of the male ejaculation to reproduction of the human race, but men can very quickly, often very quickly reach a point of ejaculatory inevitability. You're going to have an orgasm, you're going to ejaculate and there's no pulling back, and you get to that point of no return. And I think for men that's sort of how we conceptualize the sexual response cycle. But most women will tell you that they can very easily lose an orgasm, and that even as an orgasm is starting to happen, it can still be lost. There is no point of inevitability, there is no real point of no return, and that's why I emphasize both stillness and predictable routines. If you're doing something and it's working, keep doing it until she lets you know otherwise. Too many men I hear from their partners are doing great jobs, a woman is very close to having an orgasm, she's very excited. And based on that excitement, they will sort of get excited themselves or change what they're doing. And it's in that change that a woman often loses her orgasm. So, I do emphasize tuning in, I do emphasize stillness, I do emphasize following her lead, and I do emphasize predictable, consistent, rhythmic routines.

Neil Sattin: Great, well, Ian Kerner, thank you so much for your time and for all the valuable  information that you've given us today on the podcast. And I just wanna say that Ian's book "She  Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman" is available on Amazon and also probably at your local bookseller. You can visit Ian on the web, his address is iankerner.com. And again, if you’d like to  download the transcript AND the bonus action guide for this episode, just visit neilsattin.com/ian, that's I­A­N or you can just text the word "passion", P­A­S­S­I­O­N to the number 33444 and follow the instructions there.  Ian, thanks again for coming on the show today, and for defending the orgasm, and also giving us some great words of wisdom for how to have more pleasure in our intimate lives.

Ian Kerner: You're very welcome. I can't think of anything I'd rather be defending, so thank you.

 

What are some key things you can do to start off the new year in a way the improves your relationships? How can you take action without feeling overwhelmed by all of the things you can work on and improve?

To thank you for joining me on this journey to improve relationships, Chloe and I have a gift for you. Our gift to you this holiday season is the first 4 days of our 21 Days To Deeper Intimacy In Your Relationship course, totally free. 3000 people have taken this course and the first 4 days is our gift to you so you can start making progress in your relationships in 2019. Inside the course, you’ll find tools for diagnosing where you are now and how to improve it.

If you decide you’d like to do the entire 21-day course, you’ll have that option as well. Whether or not you do the remaining 17 days, the first 4 will have a big impact on how you see your relationship, how you see your past relationships, and how to use this in other types of relationships. These relational skills will help you no matter what relationship you apply them to.

To get access to your gift just go to neilsattin.com/gift or text “21days” to 33444 and follow the instructions. I am so excited to share this with you and I know it will help you start 2019 right.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

Resources:

I want to know you better! Take the quick, anonymous, Relationship Alive survey

FREE Guide to Neil’s Top 3 Relationship Communication Secrets

Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner’s Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE)

Support the podcast (or text “SUPPORT” to 33444)

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How can what we know about attachment and the power of our emotions, create deeper intimacy and resolve conflicts with your partner? In today’s episode you’re going to learn about a particular kind of conversation that you can have with your partner that can change everything. This week, our guest is Sue Johnson, author of  Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love, and the founding director of the International Centre for Excellence in Emotionally Focused Therapy. In Hold Me Tight, Dr. Johnson shares her groundbreaking and remarkably successful program for creating stronger, more secure relationships and she’s going to share some of her wisdom on that topic with you today.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

Also, please check out our first three episodes with Sue Johnson – Episode 100: Attraction – How to Sustain It and How to Revive It – with John Gottman and Sue Johnson, Episode 82: How Safety Leads to Better Sex – Sue Johnson, and Episode 27: Breaking Free from Your Patterns of Conflict with Sue Johnson.

Sponsors:

Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode is being sponsored an amazing company with a special offer for you.

Our first sponsor today is Audible. Audible has the largest selection of audiobooks on the planet and now, with Audible Originals, the selection has gotten even better with custom content made for members. As a special offer, Audible wants to give you a free 30 day trial and 1 free audiobook. Go to Audible.com/relationship or text RELATIONSHIP to 500500 to get started.

Our second sponsor is one of my wife Chloe’s favorite online clothing retailers, ModCloth. With the year wrapping up, it’s time to put a bow on 2018 and...think about new outfits, and the new you! Whether you’re still craving cozy sweaters or you’re ready to start stocking up for spring, ModCloth is your go-to. To get 15 percent off your purchase of $100 or more, go to modcloth.com and enter code ALIVE at checkout. This offer is valid for one time use only and expires on March 3rd, 2019.

Resources:

Check out Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight Online course

Visit Sue Johnson’s website to learn more about her work.

Pick up your copy of Sue Johnson’s book, Hold Me Tight: Seven Conversations for a Lifetime of Love.

FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship

Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE)

Visit www.neilsattin.com/sue3 to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Julie Henderson.

Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

Transcript:

Neil Sattin: Hello and welcome, to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. We've spoken a lot on this show about attachment, and the way that attachment influences how we operate in our lives and in our relationships. And I wanted to bring back one of the masters of showing us how to use what we know about attachment in relationship to the show, to talk about her new online program, and also to answer some questions from you, because we had some people in the Facebook group chime in with questions for this illustrious guest, who has been with us several times before. Her name is Sue Johnson. You probably know her as the creator of Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy or EFT, which is how we'll refer to it in this episode. She was here in Episode 27, talking about how to break free from patterns of conflict. She was here in Episode 82, talking about how creating safety in your relationship leads to better sex. And we had the double hitter in Episode 100, with her and John Gotman, both talking about how to sustain and revive attraction in your relationship.

Neil Sattin: Today, we're going to focus on Hold Me Tight, which is one of Sue's breakthrough books that explains how couples can take this journey, these several conversations that they can have, that lead them into deeper intimacy both in terms of understanding themselves in relationship, also how to work through conflict, forgiveness, sex, you name it, it's there in the book. And this has all been rolled out recently in an online program called Hold Me Tight Online, we're going to talk more about that. Sue also has a book coming out right around the beginning of 2019, on attachment theory in practice. And this is using emotionally focused therapy with individuals and families as well as couples. So, we may touch on that a little bit, and hopefully we'll also get to have Sue back to chat when that book comes out.

Neil Sattin: I think that's enough from me. In the meantime, if you want to download a transcript of this episode, please visit neilsattin.com/sue3, so that's S-U-E, and then the number three. Or as always, you can text the word Passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions to get the transcript for this episode and our other episodes.

Neil Sattin: Also, if you are interested in the online program that Sue is going to be talking about, you can visit neilsattin.com/holdmetight, and that will take you to a page where you can find out more about Sue Johnson's Hold me Tight Online program. Sue, thank you so much for sitting through that long introduction and it's such a pleasure to have you here again with us on Relationship Alive.

Sue Johnson: Oh, it's always nice to be with you.

Neil Sattin: Well, we have a lot to talk about today, and we'll do our best to be succinct. And I also want to encourage you listening that we're not going to go over all the finer points of what we've already talked about, those other episodes are there for you to listen to. But Sue, maybe we could start by just talking about what is emotionally focused therapy, what makes it unique from other ways that people might be used to working with therapists or understanding themselves.

Sue Johnson: Emotionally Focused Therapy, as the title suggests, it basically works from the premise that the most powerful thing in a relationship is the emotional music that's playing. The emotional music is what structures a relationship, it's what organizes a relationship, defines, leads the partners to dance in a particular way with each other. So it's sort of dedicated to the idea that, if you want to understand relationships, and if you want to shape your relationship intentionally, whether to repair it or whether to just simply keep it strong, it's very important to understand the emotion that's going on when you dance with your partner. It's important to be able to deal with that emotion in a way that pulls your partner towards you. It's important to understand the impact you have on your partner. So EFT, really has focused on making emotion the couple's and the therapist's friend, and shown therapists and couples how to understand that emotion, how to deal positively with emotion, and how to use emotion to feel more connected with your partner.

Sue Johnson: And I think the fact that we know how to use emotion, and we honor emotion in our work with couples, is one of the reasons why... The other special thing about EFT, is that we have a fantastic amount of research on outcome. We have over 20 studies, positive outcome studies, which makes us unique in the field of couple therapy. We're the gold standard of research in couples therapy. We do not have a problem with relapse in our research, which is pretty amazing, really. It always surprises me every time we do a study and we find no evidence of relapse, because all the sort of elephant in the room in couples therapy is that even if you can create change with a couple, you see them in a month's time or in six months time and they've kind of relapsed, they've gone back to being distressed. And that's not the case in our therapy.

Sue Johnson: It's unique in that it's based on research, in terms of intervention. We've been doing this for 35 years now. It's unique in the way it deals with the most potent thing in the room, which is emotion. But in the end, the real thing that I think makes EFT different is that it's not based on somebody's idea about what love is or what relationships are all about. It's based on hundreds and hundreds of studies of adult bonding. It's based on a science of love. And so we have a map to what matters in relationships, what goes wrong, and exactly what you have to do to put it right. And that means that the EFT therapist is on target. We expect to create change, we expect our partners to grow, we expect our couples relationships to look not only a little happier, but more secure and be more stable at the end of therapy.

Sue Johnson: Obviously I'm biased here, because I'm talking about my own work. I'm talking about 35 years of research and clinical work. But the truth is that we're the only approach to couple and family therapy that's based on a real science of relationships, and that science is attachment and bonding. And I think also, because of that science, in this model... The model suggests that together we're much more powerful than we are individually, and it values and honors connection between people. And so EFT practitioners and ICEEFT, the International Center for Excellence in EFT, which is our not-for-profit organization; basically, the headquarters are here in Canada. We've created communities all over the world. I think we have about 66 right now, affiliated with us to support therapists and health professionals to learn EFT, to get together and support each other, to help each other grow, to help therapists in those communities contribute to relationship education.

Sue Johnson: We believe in creating community and I think that's something special about EFT. We do that wherever we go. The latest community that looks like it's going to take off is in Iran.

Neil Sattin: Wow.

Sue Johnson: And that's fascinating. Because of course, attachment science is about who we are as human beings. Attachment science applies to all of us, regardless of tribe, religion, political persuasion, race, gender. Attachment science, basically, is based on biology, and it tells us who we are as human beings, what our most basic needs are. So that's a bit of a mouthful, but that's what's special about EFT. [laughter]

Neil Sattin: Right. Sue, I asked you for the short version. Come on.

Sue Johnson: I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: Okay, well, that's very hard, Neil. You know how passionate I am about what I do and how successful we are, so how can I... I'm sorry, that's the shortest I can manage, okay?

Neil Sattin: No, that's great. And one thing that I really appreciate about the experience that you offer couples who are going through EFT, is that it literally does bring them along on an experience that allows them to feel each other in a different way. To feel each other's emotions in a different context, and to have that experience of getting through situations that are really tender, or challenging, or triggering and get to the other side in a way that is really constructive for their relationship and for their bonding.

Sue Johnson: Yes. And we're talking about therapy here, but I know that later in the program we're going to talk about Hold Me Tight.

Neil Sattin: Yes.

Sue Johnson: The Hold Me Tight educational program is based on my book Hold Me Tight. And I put that relational program together. There's groups all over the countries, and all these communities run by therapists, or even people who aren't therapists. Pastors, anyone can actually buy the program and run the group, a Hold Me Tight group. And what always blows my mind when I go and do one of these groups, I think the biggest one I've ever done was with 100 couples at a time in San Francisco. And what always blows my mind is, people come up to you in the groups... Usually I do them over a weekend. And they go through the conversations that we teach them in the book. And people come up to you and they say things like, "Well, we just came cause we were curious. We don't even have any real huge issues in our relationship. And I thought that our relationship was pretty good, but this group experience has taken our relationship into places I never even knew existed."

Sue Johnson: I just had one of these beautiful ones last week. This person sent me an email: "We didn't even know that we could have this kind of closeness and this kind of emotional connection. And we feel like it's changed how we'll be with each other in the future, so thank you." And I think what they're talking about is the profound, profound effect of being able to help people move into profound, bonding, conversations. They are the conversations... This is biologically prepared, powerful, experience. These are the conversations that our nervous system is wired to resonate to. These are the conversations that our brain says, "Yes, this is safe, and this is close, and this is what I want and need. This is what gives me the ability to stand up in the world and be strong." And people resonate with them. They are powerful, powerful experiences. And that's why we don't get relapse. Because you're brain... If you know how to have these bonding conversations, you remember them. They're not just something you put aside and say, "Oh, that was interesting but I don't think about it anymore."

Sue Johnson: Your whole nervous system zings with the memory of them. And once you've had these experiences, your brain wants you to go back there. So bonding experiences are... We remember them all our lives. We remember the moments when we were vulnerable and our father turned and held us and said something to us. We remember that all our lives, we hold on to it. We go back to it when we're unhappy and sad. We go back to it with a thrill of joy. These experiences are core to what we need as human beings. So when you help people move into them in therapy or in an educational group, or even online together in the privacy of their own home, there's something very profound about that, and truly growth producing for individuals and for couples about that. And attachment science has shown us how to get there, how to... If we really understand who we are as human beings, of course we can craft powerful, transformative, experiences. Right? And that's the thing that keeps me passionate about this work. I think it keeps... EFT is passionate in general.

Neil Sattin: And I want to take our listeners on this journey, a little bit, today. We'll give them a taste of this kind of experience. But before we do, I'm curious about how do you get when someone isn't along for the ride?

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: And this is often the case in a couple, right? Where one person hears Sue Johnson on Relationship Alive and says, "We gotta find an EFT therapist, or we gotta buy this book Hold Me Tight." Or whatever it is, right? And the other person is maybe just like, "Yeah, I don't buy that therapy stuff." Or, "Sounds really like unhealthy co-dependence." When people come at it with their negative bias about it, or maybe they're just stonewalling and they're shut down to the influence of their partner at this stage in their relationship. How do you help enlist the partner in actually wanting, or hopefully, inviting them to participate in something like this?

Sue Johnson: Oh, well that happens quite a lot. Even when people come for therapy sometimes, they're kind of being dragged there.

Neil Sattin: Right.

Sue Johnson: You can tell they're waiting... They're in the room with their teeth gritted, and they're... [chuckle] They're just wanting to wait for you to stop talking so they can explain how they've got to leave now, that's how you feel. What we do in EFT is what we always do. We start where people are. It's an incredible mistake from an EFT point of view to start telling people to be different. You just become dangerous when you do that, and they'll protect themselves against you. So, we start where we are. And I can give... For an example, I just did a session with an an Inuit couple, and we started with the fact that to sit and talk to somebody like me is definitely not part of Inuit male culture. And we talked about the fact that from his point of view the very best way of dealing with any problem was to go hunting. [chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Sue Johnson: And I talked about that with him. I didn't explain therapy. That's the wrong channel. He's not interested in getting information from me, he's not even interested in it. So we talked about hunting, and we talked about what that did for him, and how when he hunted he felt competent. And he was out in a bitter environment but he was somehow in charge. And we talked about how strange it was for him to even think about sitting and talking about his emotions with someone like me, or reading the Hold Me Tight book. And as I joined with him, and listened to him, and had him teach me about how he dealt with his emotions, engaged other people, dealt with his needs for closeness, how he dealt with his vulnerability, which is... You can't get out of those things, they are universal, right? Unless you're a lizard or something, you have to be actively engaged with those three things. As we sat and talked about it he became more open. And I said, "Alright, well it sounds like your hunting has saved your life. It sounds like your hunting has really done a lot for you. And I think it's wonderful that you've been able to do that. And you're right, I can't offer you that experience. So would you like to talk to... Are you curious at all? And maybe I can help you feel some of the same kind of sure... "

Sue Johnson: Cause he talked in words like "sureness" and "ground under his feet". He used these images. So I said, "Well, maybe I could help you find some of that sense of sureness and ground under your feet, when you're talking to your lady and you see that she's disappointed with you, which I'm hearing is one of the moments where you decide to go hunting."

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: And I'd listen to him, he'd listen to me. He experienced me as safe. I wasn't telling him how to be. And so he said, "Yes that would be interesting." And he starts to look me in the eye and he starts to look up at me more, and he starts to... He's suddenly engaged. And we begin. We begin with what would he like to change in his relationship and what is happening to him in those moments in the relationship? We begin with his pain, we begin with the dilemmas that he would like a solution to, and we go slowly because in his culture that's the way it works. You speak slowly and you deal with things at a slow pace. I'm sorry, I'm getting interruption here, I forgot to turn off my phone it'll stop in a minute.

Neil Sattin: It's okay.

Sue Johnson: So we go slowly. And gradually he comes, he becomes curious. So you start where people are, you validate their uncertainty, their reluctance. If you think about it just in very human terms, the last thing you want to do if you are uncertain and vulnerable, is to go to talk to some strange professional person about that. You're worried about being shamed, you're worried about them telling you that there is something wrong with you, you're worried about what they are going to tell you about their relationship. You don't feel safe.

Neil Sattin: Right. And of course what's challenging about these conversations when they happen just between partners in a relationship, is that they are so often very quickly triggering conversations.

Sue Johnson: That's right. That's right. The partner hears, "Well, you don't even care enough about our relationship to go and talk to somebody about it, so that just proves what a creep you are." And people get stuck there. But what we are talking about is also another reason why I went to all the trouble to try and create the Hold Me Tight program, educational program. Because I assume that even though couple therapy is becoming a bit more normative, there are a huge number of people who would rather have their feet roasted in an oven than come to couple therapy, right? And they won't come. So I said, "Okay, then maybe they'd come to a group put on by their pastor in their church. Or, maybe they'd come to a group put on in the local hall with 10 other couples." And then it went to, "No, there's a whole bunch of people who won't come to that either." [chuckle] Beause in our culture, we hide our vulnerability or our uncertainty. And so I went, "Okay, well then there is a whole bunch of people, maybe they'd do an online program that's friendly and fun, and they do it in their own homes where they feel safe and private." So then of course that leaves us putting all the energy into creating an online.

Sue Johnson: And I think what we are talking about here is the EFT commitment. Well, I'll just make it personal, my commitment. The commitment in this model, and if you are an attachment theorist, is not just to create a very good model, research it, and teach people about it. Which is big enough. We've been doing that for 35 years. The commitment is that as a psychological approach, that we have something to offer society and that we can help society learn to honor and value relationships, shape better relationships. That's what we're trying to do. So therapy, education. I think the main issue here that we're up against, where the person asked the question, is that our society, our culture, has not seen love relationships as something that are understandable, are shapeable, that you can shape, that you can learn to create, that you can nurture deliberately with intention. We don't talk about love like that. We say you fall in, you fall out. And we've basically had a very narrow mistaken view of romantic love relationships, and I think who we are as human beings. So people, they really don't see... They not only, "I'm not sure a therapist can help or a group can help." They really don't see love as something that you can craft and shape and understand. And we're trying to change that. We're trying to have an impact on that.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I think that's one reason why we resonate, you and I, so much is that that's definitely part of my mission and Relationship Alive's mission in the world as well. To affect that transformation. Because that is definitely a big deal, that there are a lot of people who don't quite understand that you can actually adjust things in ways that are actually helpful. Sadly, I think a lot of people have this story that they know of a couple that tried therapy and it just blew up their marriage or that sort of thing. It's just one positive experience at a time, I think, and the way that that ripples out in to the world. That people get the sense of, "Oh actually we know a lot more about how to do this than we did 20 years ago." And that's why we are having this conversation.

Sue Johnson: Right. And that's the message we keep trying to get out there. And you know it is so interesting, the news is always focused on bad news. That's what the news wants to report. But I always say I don't really understand, it's beyond me why at some point, it hasn't been all over the front of the New York Times, that we now have a science of romantic love, of love period. That we now understand it. We have an incredible theory and science about what it's all about, that attachment started off with looking at the bonding between mother and child, and now it's grown. In the last 15 years it's been applied to adult relationships, and it really has so much to say about who we are and what we need to thrive and survive, and how we are relational beings, and how to create good loving relationships. And surely, this is revolutionary. Surely this is at least as important as understanding DNA, I think so.

Neil Sattin: It's at least page two, if not the front page.

Sue Johnson: I think it's the headline. I think it is much more important than us putting all this energy into going in rockets to the stars. Why don't we learn to become powerful, bonded, connected, cooperating human beings on this planet? Maybe we wouldn't need to go to the stars. [chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Yeah, I hear ya, I totally hear you there. And this makes me wonder too, because there needs... I want to befriend to that person or persons who decide what goes on the front page of the New York Times. And if I meet that person I'll put in a good word for you, Sue.

Sue Johnson: For sure, okay.

Neil Sattin: And I am thinking that often what brings light on a particular subject is not how amazing it is, although sometimes that is true. But often it's the controversy that accompanies it. And that makes me wonder for you, your own perspective on what I think some people do still perceive as a controversy between attachment theory in relationships and how important it is to understand the science of bonding, and differentiation, and people learning to stand on their own two feet, and taking responsibility for themselves. And the interplay of those things. Yeah. So go ahead.

Sue Johnson: Well, basically I think we in psychology have a huge responsibility here. Because we didn't know enough and so we set those things up. We set up being a strong individual and acknowledging your need for others as dichotomies. We set them up like they're on opposite sides of a long line. Like they're opposites. And of course they're not. That is a mistaken way of looking at it. All the research, and I'm talking about thousands of studies now. All the research since about 1960 points to the fact that the bottomline is the more securely connected to others you are, the more sure you are of yourself, the more... If you like, the more securely connected you are, the more articulated, coherent, and positive, your sense of self is. So, you find out who you are, you differentiate with others, not from others. If you look at the differentiation literature, it almost implies that there is a point in time where you just decide to look in the mirror and define yourself and tell yourself you're great, and that you can self soothe and you can do all this for yourself. This is nonsense, this is not who we are. We never get to that point.

Sue Johnson: And the only people who look in the mirror, and totally define themselves and tell themselves they're wonderful and don't need other people, we call them psychopaths. And they are not particularly known for being wonderful members of society or particularly happy. It's a mistake we made because we didn't have the big picture. We just saw a little foot of the elephant that said that our needs, if they are expressed in negative ways, can get us into trouble. Our needs for others can get us into trouble, And indeed, that's true. But that's what we saw. So in family therapy for example, we focused on issues like enmeshment. And that's so interesting because we don't do that when we work with families in EFT. We focus on how people deal with their anxiety, and we help them move into that anxiety and hold it and regulate it, and be able to express that anxiety in ways that are not cohesive to other people, and not demeaning for themselves. And ways that pull the other people close. And they grow, and the relationships grow. That's what we do and we do it all the time.

Sue Johnson: We don't find enmeshment or co-dependency particularly useful concepts. We just see it that people are stuck being anxious about the safety of their relationships. And when you're anxious, you either get all upset and try to yell and scream and demand and control things, or you tend to shut down and numb out. And neither of them are useful. They don't get you what you need. I think what I'm saying is, it's a much more integrated and rounded out and complete picture of differentiation and individuation and self soothing that you get from taking the whole picture of attachment and bonding in context. It's the little child who knows the mother will come if he calls, who goes out and believes that he can run down the slide, and who manages his distress if he finds that maybe he falls off the slide. He knows that if he calls his mum will come, he's in a safe universe where he feels loved and held, and his mother has come a number of times. So he's learned that distress is manageable and that he can manage it, and that he can call for another. He's internalized that sense of safety in the world. And he will grow up with a stronger sense of self and a stronger ability to go out into the world and take risks.

Sue Johnson: This isn't a theory, there's thousands of studies on this now, this isn't a theory. Securely attached people who know how to trust others and reach for others, and who believe that others will be there for them, consistently have a better self-image, they are more able to take risks, they're more able to face the world, they're more resilient. They're basically, if you like, more differentiated. So this dichotomy is a false one, and it's really about the old theories of human functioning which are kind of in boxes. We've never had the whole picture coming up against the new approach to looking at human beings, which is attachment. And it's really the conflict between the old and the new there, and there doesn't have to be a conflict at all is what I'm saying.

Neil Sattin: Right. I appreciate that. That you've, I think, shown very clearly how they include each other. That one comes with the other. And as soon as you split them apart that's when they start, either one, starts to become a little dysfunctional.

Sue Johnson: I think on emotional level it really isn't about that. I think on an emotional level, it's about the fact that we all know that if we need another, that introduces a level of vulnerability. And I think, and especially in our society, we don't want to talk about that vulnerability. We want to believe that we're invulnerable. And society says you're supposed to be able to soothe yourself, deal with everything, live life at 50 miles an hour, have everything. So we want to believe we're invulnerable. And what attachment really says is, "That's not the way to real strength." Real strength is to understand where you're vulnerable. Understand the essence of your vulnerability, which is also a beautiful thing in human beings. Understand their need for closeness, the way they be able to tune into others, and you're own need for closeness, and accept that vulnerability. And then know how to deal with it positively. That is really strength, not the denial of vulnerability."

Neil Sattin: Yeah. And this makes me think of the Hold Me Tight conversation.

Sue Johnson: Yep.

Neil Sattin: And I love how in our very first conversation where we talked about changing your conflict patterns, we talked a lot about discovering your demon dialogues, and the first three conversations that are part of the overall Hold Me Tight sequence.

Sue Johnson: Yes.

Neil Sattin: But then I'm thinking of the fulcrum, really, of Hold Me Tight sitting in the middle. So could we talk for a moment about what is the, 'the', Hold Me Tight conversation that happens and why is that so important?

Sue Johnson: Well, what happens in a Hold Me Tight conversation is you have already... If you're helping a couple create one, it doesn't matter whether you're doing it in therapy or in an educational group or in an online program. Before you ask people to go into a Hold Me Tight conversation, you have helped them create a certain safety and sense of trust in their relationship. Because you cannot do a Hold Me Tight conversation while you are vigilant for danger, waiting for a negative pattern, like some sort of... Waiting to deal with an attack from your partner, or just waiting for your partner to let you down. When you're on guard, you can't move into a Hold Me Tight conversation. So you have to have a certain sense of safety first, and we've learned to take you there in EFT, and all the various forms of EFT. But once you have that, really what a Hold Me Tight conversation does is it moves people gradually into the three elements that we know are key to a bonding conversation.

Sue Johnson: What defines the safety of a bond in a relationship is how emotionally accessible, responsive, and engaged you are. A-R-E; Accessible, Responsive, and Engaged. And I always relate it to, that the key question in a lot of relationships is, "Are you there for me?" A-R-E. Are you accessible? Are you open? Are you responsive to me? Will you tune into me? Will you move towards me when I call? Am I important enough that you'll tune into me and pay attention to me? Do you care about my needs? Will you engage me? Will you come and meet me on the dance floor? Maybe struggle even if I'm struggling with me? Are you committed to really being with me in a dance, even we are caught in a negative dance? Hold Me Tight conversations really create that emotional openness, that ability to send messages to each other that evoke empathy and caring, help the other person respond, that help us see that vulnerability in our partner and respond with what they need. And help us stay engaged even when that engagement gets hard. And it's really about being able to talk about... In the end, it's a conversation about your fears. And we all have the same fears in relationships, we're all terrified of rejection and abandonment.

Sue Johnson: Those things are wired in, it doesn't say... It's nothing to do with personality strength or anything, it's to do with the fact that we're bonding animals, and abandonment and rejection are danger cues to our mammalian brain. They're life threatening, literally. We're born so vulnerable, when our brain is being formed, we know how to take our next breath, that if we are totally rejected or abandoned and left, we die. We know we're at risk. And we never lose that sense. So this vulnerability is wired in, and we're all afraid of rejection and abandonment, so we have these fears. And how we deal with these fears really has a lot to do with how we end up engaging others. And then it's not... But it's not just about how we deal with our fears, it's about whether we can actually know how, or have had the experience of being able to actually pinpoint our needs for connection, comfort, support, caring. Our needs... Just to share our reality to find out how valid it is. That's such a human need.

Sue Johnson: To be able to share our needs, pinpoint them, and share them in a way that our partner can hear them and pulls our partner close to us. In the end, a bonding conversation is about sharing your vulnerabilities, your fears, and your needs in a way that helps your partner respond and come close. And helps you and them become accessible, responsive, and engaged on an emotional level. And that is the essence of bonding. And powerful conversations that can change the way you see yourself, the way you see other people, the way you experience your world.

Neil Sattin: So this conversation that's about talking about your fears, sharing your needs and your vulnerabilities with your partner. And I love how you... The important thing comes at the end there, which is, in a way that invites your partner closer.

Sue Johnson: Yeah.

Neil Sattin: And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about what allows that to happen versus... 'Cause I think some people might hear that and think, "Oh god, my partner's already so needy and vulnerable. They're needy all the time. So I want them to be more needy? How's that going to work?"

Sue Johnson: No, it's not about being more needy. It's about being able to hold on to your emotional balance and own your needs, and then ask for them to be met. And that is very different from what most of us see as the norm in relationships. Which is, "I expect my... " For most of us it's like, "I expect my partner... If my partner loves me, my partner already knows my needs." That's a huge myth in relationships. And what we want to do is we want our partner to respond to those needs without us having to actually show that we need. Because in our society we've been taught that showing that you need is somehow shameful or not okay, or it means you're immature, or whatever it means. It means you're not an independent adult, whatever that is. So most of us don't want to show our needs, and we don't quite know how to talk about them. And so then of course we're massively surprised that the message doesn't come across to our partner.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: It's quite humbling to write these books and do all these training tapes and do all these studies, and then talk to your own partner, or your own children, your own son, and hear yourself doing exactly the same things that we all do, and that couples do. You just hear yourself rather than turning and telling your partner that you are feeling upset by something and you would like to be reassured and comforted, you hear yourself turn and get accusatory or demanding or give advice or start telling your partner they should know better, having been married to you all these years, and read Hold Me Tight a few times.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: They should know better and they should be more supportive right now. Which of course I'm asking for support in a way where I have a hammer in my hand and so my partner just looks at the hammer and backs off. We get stuck in these dances because we're not tuning into our own emotional music or our partners. We don't make it easy often for our partner to see what we really need, and then when we don't get what we need, we're not very good at keeping our emotional balance and dealing with that. We get very agitated and attack or criticize, or we shut down and numb out. And neither of those things work. It's what a good science does, is it tells you how to look at basic phenomena in the world and understand them and how they work.

Sue Johnson: And attachment science tells us how we work emotionally, and how relationships work. And giving advice to your partner, telling your partner what to do, explaining to your partner that they're somehow inadequate, [laughter] that doesn't work. That might be more comfortable for us than pausing for a minute, taking a breath, getting our emotional balance and saying, "What is happening with me, why am I getting so agitated here?" Then realizing that we are off balance, we're on our back foot, and we need someone to reassure us or just calm us for a moment. And being able to slow things down... And that's a lot of it actually, that emotion is fast and sometimes it's overwhelming for us and we either numb it out or we get carried away with it.

Sue Johnson: Being able to keep your balance and slow things down and say, "Oh, I'm finding that very difficult, getting this letter that is telling me that I'm maybe not going to be considered for this promotion. I was pretending it didn't matter to me but in fact I'm finding it very difficult indeed. And what I really need is to be able to tell my partner somehow I feel kind of small right now because I expected to get an interview immediately, and I expected everyone to be delighted to interview me. And I'm feeling pretty small and I just need some support and reassurance." That's not what occurs to us. We get irritable or... So there's lots of ways not to connect, unfortunately. There's lots. And we do them anyway, even when we sort of know lots of information in our prefrontal cortex, we still get stuck.

Neil Sattin: Right, because that part of our brain is turned off when we're in those moments of distress. And I'm wondering, for you, especially because you so graciously pointed out that you may have moments where you don't act quite by the book, What are your...

Sue Johnson: Of course.

Neil Sattin: What are your best ways, what are your favorite go-tos in your relationship for regrouping when things have gone off the rails a little bit? And I'm looking for your specific ways you bring yourself back into balance, ways you take responsibility for what just happened and corral the interaction back into a more generative space?

Sue Johnson: It's interesting because basically I tune into all the things I've learned in EFT, but I can't... That takes a while. So if you ask me what my fast route out of that is, I'm usually able to see the few minutes of interaction, and I'm able to see the negative pattern, that I'm not actually asking for what I need. I'm usually able to see it. I should be able to do this after watching thousands of couples and all kinds of research studies. And so I'm able to see. My vision expands, if you like, from the little tiny piece of interaction that I just had or my feeling of frustration that I'm feeling. I listen to what I just said to my partner and I'm able to hear it in a broader context or see, " Wait a minute, that doesn't work, this is not the dance I want to be in." So I somehow have to have a sense of that. That I'm somehow getting stuck in some sort of narrow place that isn't going where I want to go, which is to feel safer, sounder, more connected, reassured. Somehow I know I'm going in the wrong direction.

Sue Johnson: And then one way of thinking about that I've been thinking about lately, and I've written about it in my new book that's coming out in January, which is a professional book. Is I change channel. I change channel from just coping with the emotion and somehow putting it out to my partner in a way that I'm just putting it out and I'm not actually thinking about how to really connect with him with that emotion. But I change channel. And usually what that means is, I change into listening to my emotion differently, and being able to stay with the softer feelings. And I think that's what people do in general when they can do these things. They move from somehow lecturing their partner or complaining or pointing out issues or just saying a few things and hoping their partner are going to guess.

Sue Johnson: They move into being able to name their emotions and to say... Or describe them in very simple ways. Like, "I feel small," or, "I feel uncertain right now," or. "for some reason I'm feeling really uncomfortable, maybe even a bit scared, and I don't quite know why." They trust themselves enough, they trust their partner enough, that they can go into those softer feelings. And when they do, when they move into that emotional space, emotion just... It's like the picture evolves. It's like what you're scared of becomes clearer, what you need becomes clearer. And when you turn and change channel into that deeper more open emotion, you give different signals. It's just natural if you stay there. Saying to someone, "For some reason that conversation I had with that person left me feeling really, really, frazzled and uncomfortable, and even a bit scared and I don't know why." That is an invitation to empathy and connection. That's completely different from, "I've had a bad day and you're not helping. I thought you were going to cook supper. And what I hope is underneath all my bad temper, you're going to see that I really need some help and comfort. But unfortunately you don't." [chuckle] "You just see that I'm dangerous and you avoid me." Right?

Neil Sattin: Right. Which is exactly what you don't need in that moment.

Sue Johnson: Yeah. We are not wired to deal with our vulnerability by ourselves. We can do it if we have to, for short periods of time. But we're not wired, and it's not the most efficient and effective way of dealing with our human vulnerabilities. It's not the strongest or best way to deal with our human vulnerabilities. We're wired, we're social bonding animals. We're wired to connect with other people. We're stronger together.

Neil Sattin: What I hear you saying too is that, by changing the channel, you're basically going from the channel that's all about, "I'm having this emotion and I'm expressing it on you." To the channel of, "I'm realizing that I'm having this emotion. And if I wanted to connect with my partner in this moment, and around the fact that this is how I'm feeling, how would I do that?" Which invites maybe a totally different course of action in that moment.

Sue Johnson: Yeah. But I don't think it's as deliberate as you're making it sound here. Usually in the first instance, people are being reactive. They're actually coping with softer emotions by shutting down or being very... Just giving facts. Or getting angry and becoming demanding. They're actually... Those are coping devices, really. The real core emotion underneath is not spoken, and so then the partner doesn't see it and doesn't see the need that that core emotion speaks to. There's a lot of conversation about this too. There's all kinds of conversations in our field about how empathy, and how empathy is a skill and you have to teach empathy skills, you have to train for it, I'm sorry, I don't think so.

Sue Johnson: Empathy is right into us, it's there. What we have to do is understand what blocks it. And the main thing that blocks it is, I can't be empathic to my partner if I'm too busy dealing with my own overwhelming emotions. If most of the glucose going to my brain is dealing with my own discomfort, fear, uncertainty, I don't have any room to tune into my partner's emotions. I don't think we teach empathy, we model empathy, I guess. In Hold Me Tight groups and in the online program, people will see models of couples interacting with empathy and connection, but in the end, it's really about what blocks it, how you put out your message that blocks your partner's natural empathy, or how you can talk to your partner in a way that evokes that empathy. People are naturally empathetic and responsive, so in the EFT we just understand the blocks. And we help people dance in a way that those blocks don't come up or to see beyond those blocks. I guess that sounds a bit abstract but I think it's clear.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I think that's getting at the heart of the question that I asked you a few minutes ago, around how do you have the Hold Me Tight conversation? A conversation where you're able to tell your partner about your vulnerabilities and your fears and your needs, without it coming across as being a demand or being needy, that it comes out of that place of being aware of your feelings and seeking, I think you've said it a couple times now, the softer emotions that are underneath the things that are on the surface.

Sue Johnson: Yes. And I think the other thing about that is, a big part of EFT is it's a lot easier to do that if you grasp those emotions, and you have the normalized and validated, and you don't see those emotions as somehow proof that you are somehow not strong enough. Or that you're somehow not mature enough or that there is something wrong with you. A lot of EFT is validating, honoring, and holding people's emotions. Walking, setting up experiences where they walk into those emotions gradually, and at the same time are safe in that experience because they are given a framework where those emotions are understood, honored, validated. And our society hasn't been very good at that. We don't teach kids in schools about their own emotions or about the impact they have on other kids, and how to have safe conversations. We don't teach that. It's insane, we teach kids trigonometry but we don't teach kids what I just said, and so that's nutty. There are thousands of couples out there in the world.

Sue Johnson: I'm just going to give a talk, public talk, in a few weeks in Toronto in December, called "What Every Couple Needs To Know", at the big Museum in Toronto. And I really believe that this stuff is what every couple needs to know. There are thousands of couples out there who have no way of understanding the dances they're caught in. No way of understanding even their own needs. You say to people, "What do you need?" And they say, "I need her to stop nagging." Or, "I need the conflicts to stop." Or, "I need... " These kinds of... "I need my partner to have more communication skills." These are huge. They don't know how to really go to the core of what they need and what they want. And we have taught people to be ashamed of them. So, a big part of EFT is we help people understand their own emotional lives, their own... The terrain of emotion. And who we are as bonding animals. And when you can accept those needs, when you can accept that we're all human beings who need comfort and security, and life is so huge. We all need to put our hand out in the dark and call, "Are you there?" And have a reassuring hand come and meet ours. And when we can do that, we can deal with the dark. And that's just the human condition.

Neil Sattin: That makes me think too that that must be how EFT approaches couples where one partner or another has a deeper trauma history.

Sue Johnson: Absolutely, that's right. And I think EFT is particularly suited to helping traumatized couples, traumatized individuals. Well, in fact what's interesting is we're talking about Hold Me Tight educational groups, that's only been around for a while. And this is what happens in EFT. Things have sprung up. There's now a Hold Me Tight educational group called, "Hold Me Tight, Let Me Go", for teens and their parents. There's a Hold Me Tight educational group based on the Christian version of the book Hold Me Tight, which is called, "Created For Connection." Which looks at how Christian beliefs fit in with attachment science and the link between those two. There's a Hold Me Tight educational group for in medical settings, which is very interesting. The biggest one we've just done, which we've just got a huge grant for, in Canada, is the Big Heart Institute back in Ottawa has asked us to adapt the program, and I hope one day we'll adapt the online program for this, too. Adapt the program for couples we're dealing with where one person's had a heart attack, because the research says that the best predictor of whether you'll have another heart attack, is not the severity of the first heart attack or even the damage done to the heart, it's the quality of your most intimate relationship.

Sue Johnson: And so the cardiologist actually read this research.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: And said, "Oh, we're a relational human beings." "Ah, relationships really impact health." "Ah, we better get this crazy lady in and she can adapt her educational program to cardiac patients." So we did that. It's called, "Healing Hearts Together", and the preliminary data on it says it's great, really works. I ran a few of those groups and they blew my mind, they were wonderful. So everybody needs to know this, and the uses of creating this knowledge about what matters in love and how love works and how to repair it and keep it, has infinite, infinite usefulness. Whether it's in therapy, in educational groups, and for sure, we've got to take this stuff online. The Hold Me Tight Online was a huge project. Took us four years and oceans of grief and work. And there was a number of times when I really thought, "What on earth am I doing this for?" But you have to do it. If you feel that we all need this, and that we... This is sort of very basic information for us thriving and surviving. We have to make it accessible for people and so many things are online now.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. And having gone through the course online, I can say that it's clear how much effort that you put in and how you tried to address different learning styles and give people lots of different examples, and make it entertaining at times.

Sue Johnson: Yes. [chuckle] We even have cartoons, which at first, when my colleague said, "We need a cartoon couple." I said, "No, no, no, no, no." But yeah, we've got cartoons and we've got music and we've got images, and we've got me giving chats and other experts giving chats, and we've got exercises that we tailor to you. It was a lot of work. But hopefully, the couples... The idea is that it's accessible to everybody, then. What I would like, which is a complete silly dream, but... Oh no, it's actually not a silly dream. What I would like is for our western governments, the government of Canada, for example, to say, "Okay, Sue, we'd like to make the Hold Me Tight Online educational program available to all couples in Canada, or everyone who's just gotten married or something. We'll make it incredibly cheap. Will you help us do that?" And I say, "Of course." And I was just going to tell you that's impossible, and I forgot that actually a much simpler version, not at all the online program we've got now, but a much, much simpler, pared-down version. The government of Finland, has actually just helped my Finnish colleagues make their version of Hold Me Tight Online, a very simple version of it, available to almost all Finnish couples, which blows my mind.

Neil Sattin: Wow.

Sue Johnson: But they've done that because they believe that stable loving relationships and stable loving families, create stable, caring, positive, thriving societies. And of course, they're right about that. That's the way to do it. So. Yeah. Why am I talking about this? I don't know.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: Hold Me Tight online was a lot of work, but at this point I'm quite proud of it. And I'm glad that you enjoyed it and that you found it very... We wanted to make it fun. We made it for the people who would never dream of coming for therapy or even reading my book or even going to a group. So we thought, "Well then, we better make it fun because these people are used to having fun online." We did our best. I think it's pretty good. It's just like everything we do, we're very pleased with it for about a year and then we find ways that we could have done it better. This is kind of classic. I know that I'm going to feel the same way about my book, my therapy book that is coming out in January, which is EFT For Individuals, Couples, and Families. But it's really a book all about attachment. I know that I'll be pleased for about a week, and then I'll read it, and by next Summer I'll have found all the ways that I could have done it better. [chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Well, fortunately, that ensures new editions or new books or new versions, and new conversations for the podcast. So I feel totally fine about that, that you're...

Sue Johnson: Do you?

Neil Sattin: Yeah. That you'll be constantly improving. Sue, you've been so generous with your time and wisdom. And I do want to ensure that everyone has the links so that... They will be, of course, available on the page for this episode which is Neilsattin.com/Sue3. And then you can also, if you're interested in the Hold Me Tight online program, you can visit Neilsattin.com/holdmetight and that will take you to a page where you can find out more about the program. Sue, I'm wondering if we can... I have just two quick questions for you.

Sue Johnson: Sure.

Neil Sattin: They can be quick or not, it's up to you, But if they're quick it's totally fine. The first was another take on when I asked you what are your favorite ways of coming back when your conversations have gone off the rails, and you brought up changing the channel. Often, because we're such astute observers of our partners, it happens that we notice that our partner is totally triggered about something.

Sue Johnson: Yes.

Neil Sattin: And so I'm wondering, when you notice, "Oh, my husband is... He's triggered right now." What do you like to do in order to help bridge the gap in that moment?

Sue Johnson: That's a nice question. I think the best guide to this is what we naturally do with beings where the vulnerability is not so hidden, I.e. Children and dogs.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: If you watch people with little kids, or you watch people with dogs, which I find fascinating, okay? They naturally, if they see vulnerability, if you watch them they slow down, they lower their voice, they lean in, they give more attention, they give a focused kind of attention, they might ask a question or they might reach with their hand. You know? It's fascinating to me... Let's just take dogs, if you watch dogs. I remember sitting in a Starbucks, I can't remember why I was doing this, years ago. And watching all the people look on their cellphones, and all the people completely avoid contact, and was thinking, "Goodness, me. This society, we're becoming lonelier and lonelier." And then I sat and watched and there was a line of dogs tied up outside the Starbucks on these posts, right? So they're all sitting there, it's a Saturday morning. So you watch all these people come out with their... They've looked to their phones the whole time, they're carrying things, and they're busy and distracted, and it's a busy street so they've got to stop, right? And they look down, and it was so fascinating to me how many people looked down, and if the dog looked back, particularly if the dog was kind of small and didn't look very happy.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: These distracted, distant, disconnected people would... I couldn't hear what they were saying, which I think helped actually, because... You would think. I remember watching this man who put his coffee down, and leaned down, and talked to this dog. He was obviously comforting the dog, you know? Like, "Oh you're waiting for your master, you don't want to be here." Then he reached out and patted the dog on the head. He gave the dog more focused, soft, slow, connected attention than he'd given anyone in the Starbucks for whenever, right?

Neil Sattin: Right.

Sue Johnson: So we know how to do it. It's a question of tuning in and giving it. Unfortunately, sometimes we're not very balanced so we'll turn and say, "What the hell's wrong with you?" [chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Right, right. That's why I love the way that you put it. Cause I'm so used to saying you see your partner and they're triggered, but I love your articulation of when you see vulnerability. Because that is what you're really seeing in that moment, is your partner in a vulnerable space. And if you know that your partner is the kind of person who, when they're vulnerable, needs space, is there an adjustment that you make to how you would respond to that? Would you just give them space and then revisit? Or is there a way to bring it out that doesn't...

Sue Johnson: No, I'd reach and then give them space.

Neil Sattin: Got it.

Sue Johnson: I'd reach to say, "I'm saying I am accessible, I am here, I see you. But I'm not demanding that you turn to me right now. I see you, and I see that sometimes you need time when you're in this space. So I'm just seeing you and I'm here." That's a very powerful thing to do. Good parenting is that. Good parenting, parents know their kids style. And they do that. They say, I've seen people do it in therapy when they start to really mend their relationship. They say, "Well, I understand this is hard for you to talk about, and I see that and maybe when I was your age I couldn't talk about these things at all, and I just want you to know that I'm going to be here. And I see how hard it is for you and I want to help you. And I'm right here when you want to turn around and talk." This is amazing. This is an amazing invitation, right? And people can do that, they really can. They can offer each other that kind of space and that kind of empathy. I take account of your style of response. But for me to do that, I have to be feeling pretty safe. Otherwise, I'm busy dealing with my emotions about the fact that you don't talk about anything and that leaves me alone. And if I'm stuck there, I'm not going to be able to accommodate you. I have to have my own balance, if I'm dancing, before I can accommodate to you in that way.

Neil Sattin: Right, right. Yeah. And so that brings us full circle to how we take care of ourselves when we recognize that we're in distress and take responsibility for how we're feeling in the moment.

Sue Johnson: Yes.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Sue Johnson: And I think a lot of it is, many of us are dealing with relationships which happen very fast in a busy world where there's lots of demands on us. And I think the central issue is that many of us don't even know what's possible. We've never even seen the kind of relationships that we talk about in these programs, and in EFT and therapy, where people can diffuse conflicts, stand together against a negative pattern, find a way to be accessible, responsive and engaged. People haven't even seen it. They've see a bit of it in Hollywood, which is usually infused with sexual infatuation. They've seen little moments of it, which I think is great. Okay? I think that's great. Right? One of the ways movies and books have always civilized us, right? In some ways. But they don't really know how to get there. So, lots of times we're trying to create relationships where we really don't have a model of what's possible at all. And that's why I hope therapists who like EFT will maybe think about running Hold Me Tight groups, will maybe try the online program themselves and tell their clients about it, or tell their communities about it. Because so many of us don't even know what is possible in our relationships.

Sue Johnson: We haven't even seen that these conversations can happen. And when we know that, the world changes. Our sense of what is possible with other people changes. This is a huge thing. Right?

Neil Sattin: It's true. And I've definitely seen that in my own connection as well, as it's evolved through our patterns of conflict and beyond, which has been nice. And your work has definitely been helpful for us as well, so I'm so appreciative of that. Sue, my last question... And you talk about dance a lot, and...

Sue Johnson: Yeah. Well, that's because I dance Tango, that's why.

Neil Sattin: Yes. And I think we've even talked about it on the show before cause my partner, Chloe, and I do dance as well. But I'm wondering, for someone who's listening and they're like, "This all sounds great and amazing and I want to try, and it also sounds a little heavy, a little intense." What do you recommend for people in terms of keeping things light? And are there actual ways that you incorporate lightness and play and fun into how you work with people?

Sue Johnson: Well, sure.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Sue Johnson: Well, I do couples therapy because it's more fun and more interesting than anything else, personally. And when I run Hold Me Tight groups, I think it's fun. I certainly hope our online program's fun or we've completely failed. It doesn't have to be heavy all the time. Learning can be fun, it can be intriguing, fascinating, surprising...

Neil Sattin: But you know, when couples feel like, "Ah, we're so stuck and it's going to take all this work." And there's some truth to that, right? It's going to take some work for them to shift their patterns. And yet, yeah, I think it's more about...

Sue Johnson: Discovery. If you're feeling... I think it all boils down to a sense of safety. My sense is couples come to see me and in the first few sessions it's not fun at all, because they're scared and they're worried. When they start to relax with me and we can play, and we can look at the dances they have, and we can look at how normal they are, and we can play with them and share them, and we can look at how stuck they got, and see how silly it is in some ways. EFT is not always heavy at all. We have a lot of laughter. And people not launch themselves into these huge heavy conversations. They're very gradual, and we make safety as they do it. So, yeah, it's not all heavy. It's you take it at your own speed. And for sure, people find it intriguing.

Sue Johnson: The dropout rate in EFT is really low. In our studies and clinically in practice, the way people report to us, people stay. Sure it's heavy sometimes, but people stay because they're learning so much. And it's an amazing journey, they're learning about themselves, they're learning about their partner. And there's a huge amount of fun in there.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and you're reminding me that some of... Honestly, some of the funniest moments, I think, in my relationship, are when we... After we've recognized a pattern, which is one of the early things that you suggest couples do, is how they identify what are the patterns that they typically end up in patterns of conflict. And then when you're able to see it happening, and you're able to have those moments of like, "Look at us, we're doing that thing, that... "

Sue Johnson: Yes.

Neil Sattin: "We're just doing it again." And it can be hysterical. Chloe and I will be in the middle of it. And we'll just break out laughing, from a place of pretty intense conflict when we have those moments of, "Oh yeah, that's us just doing that thing again."

Sue Johnson: That's right. It's like I can think of a dance analogy. You can be dancing with a partner who you trust a lot. And the partner tries a very tricky move. I can think of one where my teacher who's a fantastic dancer tried a very tricky move. And I sort of got half way through the move, where he was going, and then I got my high heel caught in the hem of my pants.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: And as we both nearly fell down flat. Okay, we nearly fell. And it was hilariously funny. It wasn't, "Oh, how stupid of me to get my heel caught, or how stupid of you to ask me to do that move." It was just funny, we both recognized, "Look, we were trying to do something where we felt very clever, very intricate." And if we pulled it off, we would have thought, "Oh wow, aren't we incredible?" And it didn't work. And one of the reasons it didn't work was you don't account for thinks like high heels get stuck in pants.

[chuckle]

Sue Johnson: And then we both laugh like hell. And it was good. It was funny. It was a shift in perspective.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, well, Sue, thank you so much again for your time with me today. And I know that everyone listening has gotten a lot out of this conversation. Again, neilsattin.com/sue3. If you want the transcript, text the word Passion to the number 33444, or visit neilsattin.com/holdmetight if you want more information on the course. Sue, I'm looking forward to your book coming out in January, and checking that out. And that will be a great resource for therapists.

Sue Johnson: Yes. It's called Attachment Theory in Practice. I don't think I said the name. I always forget to say the name.

Neil Sattin: That's totally fine. I think I did say it at the very beginning.

Sue Johnson: Oh I'm sorry.

Neil Sattin: But here we are at the end. So it's good to remind everyone. And I hope that we get a chance to talk to you again sometime soon.

Sue Johnson: Oh I'm sure you will. Nice to talk to you. It's always fun to talk to you Neil.

Neil Sattin: Likewise, Sue.

Sue Johnson: Okay. Take care. Bye-bye.

 

We all want to be special, right? Being special, or important, the need to feel significant, is universal. But is it possible that your need to be special is getting in the way of your ability to connect, to give and receive love? Or does your partner value significance more than connection - keeping you from connecting with them? This week we’re going to dive into the paradox, the conflict, between the need for significance and the need for connection - so that you can discover how to have both.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

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How can you bring a new level of presence to your relationship? And what if this new level of presence could also help you find a sense of well-being in any moment? And how can you make sure you’re being yourself - instead of trying to be what somebody else wants you to be? This week, our guest is Julie Henderson, author of The Lover Within and Embodying Well-Being, and the creator of Zapchen Somatics. Zapchen is a Tibetan word that suggests something naughty, or improper - and for Julie Henderson it’s a practice of how sometimes things that are unexpectedly simple can have profound results. The practices and principles of Zapchen Somatics are a direct approach to embodying well-being, which Julie refers to as "feeling as good as you can...in spite of everything."

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

Sponsors:

Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode is being sponsored by two amazing companies with special offers for you.

Songfinch.com helps you create an original song as a unique gift for any special occasion. You tell them what the occasion is, what emotions you want your song to evoke, what type of song you want, and give them a little bit of your story - and they bring your story to life with a radio-quality song that captures it all. Songfinch is offering you $20 off a personalized “Song from Scratch” if you use the coupon code ALIVE20 at checkout.

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Resources:

Visit Julie Henderson’s website to learn more about Zapchen.

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Visit www.neilsattin.com/julie to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Julie Henderson.

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Transcript:

Julie Henderson: Most people don't know how to be present. So, they don't know how to be present in relationship to someone else, so they make something up. They make it... They make some kind of a guess. And then, they do that and see if it has the effect that they want. I would like to say that my... One of my two inside cats has come into the living room and is sniffing the sun, that's nice. So, what it is to be present? Most people are not encouraged to learn how to do that. That's central to everything. So, I would say, notice... Well, notice that you are. That might be a surprise to a lot of people, in fact, just to do that, but it's a huge step for most people to notice that they are, and just to experience how they are, when they are noticing that they are. [chuckle] It's kind of a strange, strange way of talking about things, but it's... Almost everybody is born knowing how to be, but they are often taught from an early age not to be because it bothers their parents.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. So...

Julie Henderson: When we are being, frequently, we are loud, if we're kids. Yeah.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Julie Henderson: So, you were going to say?

Neil Sattin: Well, that was the exact thing. I was going to, hopefully, get you to point out. What are these ways of being that come naturally or innately that we would be conditioned not to do?

Julie Henderson: Well, it varies from person to person. Don't you see? There are... It almost always involves... When we're young, it almost always involves spontaneous movement, spontaneous noise really because often we are being noisy before we know how to talk. And so, when we are both noisy and active, dancing around, or... Yeah, dancing around, often. Young people like to experience being by moving, and lots of times, parents don't like that because it's... Parents are tired, parents don't know how to be themselves anymore because they have to go to work and stuff like that, so they encourage their children not to be loud, not to be moving, not to be having a good time being. That's the main difficulty, I would say. We are taught not to be. Not to be present, certainly. What is it? I'm trying to think how I would say, What do we mean "present"? Noticing, in various ways, what it feels like to be present, what it feels like to notice that we actually are. I don't know, maybe it's old, but it all sounds a little bit who cares, but I find it absolutely necessary.

Julie Henderson: And it's not so hard, except that when we are grownups we have often spent a lot of time learning not to be present, not to notice that we are really this being of presence. And so...

Neil Sattin: Yeah, there are some things that are clicking into place for me. For instance, yeah, when we were young, let's say before we're even verbal, we have very limited ways of communicating with our parents. And if I think about my experience of being a parent, I was recognizing a lot of what seems like discomfort and unease in my children and trying to address it in a way that hopefully brings peace and happiness to them. But what I'm hearing, or what's clicking into place, is that through that process there's inadvertently really... What happens is the ways that our organism innately wants to communicate and express and just kind of deal with being a body, existing in this realm, that we might become either alienated from those ways, or like you were just saying, told that we can't do those things. We can't express, can't make noise, can't be unruly, can't jump around. This is common, I think, for a lot of us to go through that experience.

Julie Henderson: Very, very common, very common.

Neil Sattin: And so then we find ourselves as adults trying to make sense of the world, and trying to make sense of our relationships. But at that point there's a communication system, the communication that emerges from within us, and in many ways we're alienated from that. We're alienated from the messaging that comes from within that tells us about how we are.

Julie Henderson: Yep. We have learned to ignore what's actually true and to come up with something that's acceptable, or we have been taught is acceptable. And then we try to bring that into a relationship with people that we find attractive.

Neil Sattin: Right. No wonder it gets confusing.

Julie Henderson: No wonder it gets very cranky.

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: We try so hard to get it right so that that person will love us, and by and large it really doesn't work.

Neil Sattin: Right. Or it works for a little while, and then it starts to get confused, or there's all this tension and bumps that could happen.

Julie Henderson: Yep.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Julie Henderson: I think eventually there's a... What... A resentment that arises in us spontaneously because we are not being who we are. And we may not even recognize that that is what is going on, but that we are trying to be what somebody else wants us to be, and that's uncomfortable.

Neil Sattin: Right, and I'm getting the sense that when you talk about being who we are, in some respects you're not talking about being... Like being who we are as an expression of your preferences, or your likes and dislikes. It's something on a deeper level than that.

Julie Henderson: Oh yes, yes, yes. One of the things that I have found people take to, even given the invitation and the possibility of trying it out is to, I say... When you say I, where is it coming from in you as a body, is it coming out of your head, is it coming out of your chest, is it coming out of your belly? And I just invite people to notice where that “I” is that they are talking about is located. And very often, very often, especially with Westerners, it's in their head. So then I would say, "Okay, well, if you were to move that voice into your heart, would you say the same thing that you just said, when you were being in your head, in your brain? And often, often they're just really startled that the rest of them, starting with the heart in this particular instance, is not feeling or responding to being the same as we have been taught to do by being located in our head, especially if we went to school a lot.

Neil Sattin: Right. There's a lot of head instruction when you're in school.

Julie Henderson: Yup, yup. I remember for myself, when I first went to. I was at Cal as a freshman, the University of California, Berkeley, and I was sitting in a classroom and suddenly I was noticing that it was not my head that was engaged here, it was my whole body, ideally speaking, but I didn't get that far that suddenly but just noticing that I could be more of myself, so to speak, and that that was very attractive.

Neil Sattin: And was there something particular about that class that created that experience for you?

Julie Henderson: I think it was in English class but I don't remember because what studies stayed with me was that recognition and whatever we were talking about in the class was not it, was not the relevant recognition.

Neil Sattin: First let me just say that I find your work, at least to the extent that I've been exposed to it so far, to be both fascinating and comforting and it's just, for me, like such a curious blend of all these different practices and techniques and ways of looking at experience that even in just my simple introduction to your work, that they've made an impact and in particular, I'm thinking...

Julie Henderson: May I say that's very nice to hear.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, of course. And in particular, I'm thinking right now about one of the first conversations that we had and just to give you listening, a little background, my introduction to Julie was through her book, The Lover Within, which had been given to me by a friend and reached out in a number of different ways to try and connect with you, Julie, and then when we finally connected and started talking about your work, you were like, "Oh there's been so much since then. And let me send you a few things," and you sent me, among other books, which we'll get to in a little while, you sent the Hum Book. And that was where I started actually was by reading your book about humming, and in the time since then I've used humming as a way of bringing myself back to presence, a lot actually. I'm curious if you can...

Julie Henderson: Oh, it's a treat.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, can you talk a little bit about the practice of humming, and also what is it about humming that's so restorative, in your opinion?

Julie Henderson: Well, there are 75 different ways of answering that. [chuckle] One of the... One of the ways would be to say, "When we hum, we are touching our whole body." If we are relaxed enough to let the hum go through the whole body, which most people aren't, to begin with, but eventually. When we are touching our whole body from the inside, and what drives me wild with joy, just to think about it, and to talk about it, is that we are touching... We are touching the cellular presence of being a body, and offering it nourishment, because of the oxygen that goes with the hum, and the encouragement to be a body that goes with that kind of inner contact with ourselves. And it's very relaxing, for one thing. I'm sure you've noticed that.

Neil Sattin: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Julie Henderson: But it is... Yeah? Go ahead.

Neil Sattin: And when you talk about how it... How you're actually touching the cellular structures within you, I just want to give the people listening a sense of what you're talking about. As a visual, you describe someone, I think bowing a violin, and in the presence of a pane of glass with a bunch of sand sprinkled on the glass, and that by making the sound, everything on the glass dances. And then, when the sound stops, it comes to rest in a coherent pattern that comes from the vibration. And so, through humming, we get to send this coherent pattern through our entire body.

Julie Henderson: Yes.

Neil Sattin: And experience that, the results of that resonance. How long should someone hum to experience that, do you think?

Julie Henderson: How long do they want to hum?

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: I love it. And is there a quality of the hum that you... So, when people are like, "Well, I've hummed before. I don't think I've experienced what they're talking about." How do you get at that particular kind of humming that has such a deep effect?

Julie Henderson: I would say, be the hum. Mostly, if somebody says, "Well, I hummed and nothing happened," something like that, it's because they weren't there. They weren't there as the hum, for the hum, following the hum, so of course it didn't have the same effect. I think a lot of times it just doesn't occur to somebody to be present in the hum, and as the hum. And you can go... Well, I've got to tell you, the first time I had the good sense to do this that I'm about to say, it was just stunning to me that I could, for example, I could hum in my chest. And then, the hum, if I relaxed a little bit and changed the location of my attention, if I would take my attention into my belly then, for example, then the hum would automatically go there, and down my legs, and into my feet and toes, and so forth. Wherever I placed my attention, that is where the hum will go, and feel good. Feel good.

Julie Henderson: So, one of the things that happens is that if you are humming into your chest, for example, where in your chest? If you have learned about the mediastinum by studying this or that, then if you hum into the mediastinum, the tissues there which we often... When, for example, we feel unloved, if we notice that the tissues in the mediastinum, if they are contracted, automatically we will be feeling unloved because that is the way we have of protecting ourselves from being alone or feeling like everything is too hard, or whatever our practices of that sort are. So, if we locate the mediastinum, that wonderful, wonderful set of, excuse me, set of tissues that surround and support the heart, and a lot of the... A lot of the feelings that we have about how we are arise in the cells that surround, that fill the mediastinum and surround and support the heart. That's a wonderful thing to do, really wonderful.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. I'm reminded of how, at the very beginning of your book, Embodying Wellbeing, there's a foreword from Paul Ekman. And some of you listening may know of Paul Ekman because he studied micro-expressions in the face and your ability to tell what someone is really feeling or thinking by studying their micro-expressions. And then, he further went on to talk about how, if you could reproduce those expressions in the face, you could create emotions. And then, just to give everyone the background here, because I found this so fascinating, Julie ended up being in contact with him. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, Julie, but he studied you in his lab, and was amazed that not only were you able to create different emotional states, seemingly at will, but also you weren't bound by having to change your facial expression or the way you were breathing.

Neil Sattin: There was something you were doing that was allowing you to experience joy, and rage, and sadness, and all of these things, just through how you were... Well, you tell me, because I'm so fascinated and curious to know. [chuckle] What were you doing?

Julie Henderson: Because my body knows how to do that.

Neil Sattin: Yes, great. Great.

Julie Henderson: As I am a body, I already know how to do that. And if you look at that very first part of Embodying Wellbeing, where the basic, basic, basic exercises are, those are things that kids do spontaneously. And if they are not suppressed from doing them, they will grow up with that capacity, inherent in themselves as being a body, and they will be able to do what I can do.

Neil Sattin: And so, let's just talk for a moment about what it means to embody well-being. because we've brought up presence, we've talked about embodying, and I'd like to converge that into what the heck are we actually talking about? Embodied presence, what does that mean?

Julie Henderson: You want to talk about embodied presence, or embodied wellbeing? They're not quite the same. They go together, but it's... It will be helpful if we choose one to begin with.

Neil Sattin: Where's a good place to start?

Julie Henderson: Well, whichever one for whoever is wanting to try it out, whichever one is easy for you. For example, for me, it was easy because both of my parents were actors and they would be preparing for roles and they would be feeling various feelings and stuff, so it was not an uncommon experience for me and I could try things out, I was not suppressed from doing that. Let's see.

Julie Henderson: It all seems so straightforward to me, at the moment. Yeah, either way, well being or presence, it doesn't matter, you start by bringing your attention into your body as sensation and let yourself take in the qualities of those sensations and that will tell you what you are at that time inclined to feel. So if then you want to feel well-being, which is a very nice thing to do, it's sort of like tweaking. What do you want to invite yourself as a body to do so that well-being arises, that would be the question from a grownup point of view. And if you have access to what it has been like for you to be a kid, a child, it's very easy if you have permission from your experience to [chuckle] laugh and to think of something that attracts you, that you like, that you are glad that you know about and let your body sense in to those sensations and, yeah, just enjoy them, just enjoy them.

Neil Sattin: When I think about being in relationship and how much energy goes into trying to solve problems. Then what occurs to me is that the first thing that has to happen in order for you to be trying to solve a problem is you have to imagine that there is a problem and that sense of there being a problem is probably coming from some sense of discomfort within you. And one of the lovely other insights that your book, Embodying Wellbeing, starts with is this idea that you don't have to wait to fix the problem, if there even is a problem, to feel good, to embody well-being.

Neil Sattin: And I'm imagining, because I haven't fully experienced this yet, honestly, but I'm imagining what it could be like for people in relationship to be so aware that they say, "Okay there's a problem right now. First thing I'm going to do is I'm going to hum and then maybe I'm going to laugh and yawn or jiggle my body," and I'm just kind of cherry picking a few of the techniques that you mentioned at the beginning of Embodying Wellbeing. And I'm going to see what that does to my state of being and the way that I feel before we even try to solve anything.

Julie Henderson: Yup.

Neil Sattin: And it's such a profound degree of... Well it's funny, I was about to say control, but that word control feels so like not the right...

Julie Henderson: Try choice.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, there, perfect.

Julie Henderson: Try choice.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, so the ability to choose what our experience is in the moment.

Julie Henderson: And to play around with... Suppose you feel like there's something wrong and you don't know what it is exactly, suppose then you choose to do some or one or two or three or four of these things that help us to move towards well-being before you worry about it and see if it's still there.

Neil Sattin: Right and what if it is, what if it is still there?

Julie Henderson: Well, then you may also have more clarity about what it is that you would like to have different.

Neil Sattin: Right. because so often we're just reacting from a place of, "I'm uncomfortable I want to feel better." And the illusion in those moments with a partner especially is that the way to feel better is for you to change, the other person to change.

Julie Henderson: Yeah, "be different for me darling".

Neil Sattin: Right, exactly. Do you have any suggestions for a practice that might be a good invitation for two people to do together, maybe even in a moment of tension between them but maybe even before a moment of tension it could be, they practice it with [chuckle] when there's less at stake or something like that.

Julie Henderson: Well before they decide that they're going to feel bad because they don't like what's happening, that would be nice. There are... Horse lips is perfect and I guess probably most people have long gone past practicing horse lips. [chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Horse lips?

Julie Henderson: Horse lips.

[laughter]

Julie Henderson: You can do it that way, or you can do it with more relaxed lips, so it's like. It won't do it for me at the moment. I'm getting it wrong.

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: Yeah, there is a way if your lips are really, really relaxed, that they vibrate and flap instead of making the buzzy sound and that's a lot of fun.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, kind of like this?

Julie Henderson: Yep, that's horse lips. Horse lips because horses do that, God bless them. When they are excited or interested or just playful, they will do that.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I'm noticing right now that... Well, okay, so it feels silly to have done that. Here we are, we're in an interview and thousands of people are listening to us and...

Julie Henderson: Oh my God.

Neil Sattin: I know, exactly.

Julie Henderson: I didn't do it. [chuckle]

Neil Sattin: But it feels like silly and good.

Julie Henderson: Well, it is the beginning of a willingness to move towards well-being even if we were taught not to be silly.

Neil Sattin: Right, that is so funny. Just hearing you say that, it makes me think of those moments when we are abdicating our choice to feel good and in particular those like tense moments with, it could be with our partner, could be sitting in traffic, whatever it is, but those moments when we choose to stew, or choose to be angry or choose to be fearful and I'm saying this right now and I can even hear myself in a different frame of mind being like, "I'm not choosing this," it's like, "It's overtaking me." But yet if in that moment if someone said, "Oh well, just like do horse lips," a favorite one of my wife Chloe and I is to speak in gibberish. But it's like, it can take a serious amount of effort to actually make yourself do that in a tense and triggered moment because there's so much that wants to resist.

Julie Henderson: Well, I tell you what. It is really something worth trying, to say, "I am feeling like I want to be pissed off about something and I'm going to try feeling good first, then I can be as pissed off as I want to be." If I still want to be because if I'm allowing myself to feel well and happy first, then the whole organismic context, the attitude that is held in the cells and all of the ways that we are put together as a body, when we are feeling good as a body, then it's unlikely that we will want to feel pissed off. We may have an objection still, but we don't have to go into a contracted state of being. I mean we can, we always have that choice. It's just that we don't... It's not necessary that we go in that direction.

Neil Sattin: Right. And even then you get to bring the element of choice to how you handle your objection versus just...

Julie Henderson: Absolutely. Yeah.

Neil Sattin: Losing choice because you're in a contracted state.

Julie Henderson: Yep.

Neil Sattin: So I can already imagine the next little bit of conflict that comes up between me and Chloe, I'm going to be like, "Just excuse me for a moment," and go into the next room and do some horse lips and laugh and hum and then come back and be like, "All right, let's try this again. Let's have this conversation again."

Julie Henderson: Mm-hmm.

Neil Sattin: Can you talk about the difference between well-being, feeling good in that way, and pleasure? Because I think at least in part, the desire for pleasure and mutual pleasure is another aspect of what brings two bodies together.

Julie Henderson: Yep, often enough, unless they've already been taught not to do that. Then they have to practice letting themselves enjoy being for its own sake rather than some screwy version of getting things right.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. So maybe, where would we start with like where's our introduction to pleasure?

Julie Henderson: Well, we're born moving into pleasure by being when we're babies, and then we can do that but some parents are very encouraging of that and then it stays that way, and then we get to... [chuckle] Then we get to learn that we don't always like everything that's happening and we get to practice not liking it. And that's one of the things that kids are very good at, and then parents don't understand why they are choosing to scream and holler.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. So if I'm someone who... Like I don't think this is me, honestly, but at the same time I do think it's really important for us as adults to kind of re-learn pleasure so that it's free from the cultural constructs, the ways that we've been taught are the ways we should and shouldn't experience pleasure, and to actually experience it from the inside out. So we're not trying to re-enact something that we think will give us pleasure, but... If this is making sense. So I'm wondering, is there an exercise for you that comes to mind that's about kind of re-awakening this experience? Like a very kind of raw experience of pleasure in our experience in our bodies?

Julie Henderson: Well [chuckle], first be a body. If you isolate yourself in your head, for example, which many people in the West are brought up to do... If you let yourself... Well, I'm trying to think... The easiest thing really is to notice something that you like and let yourself rest in that and feel the bodily sensations of that. And as you do that you will be feeling pleasure.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. It's almost like you're saying experience what it's like to like something.

Julie Henderson: Mm-hmm. Let yourself experience what it's like. Let yourself experience that there is something that you like. Some people feel like that's... Well, some people would say, "Oh that's just the kid thing," or, "I have to have something that I like to like." I think, yeah, if we give ourselves... For example, if you will plant some flowers or if you will plant a tree... I mean, here where I live, I have a house that I thoroughly enjoy having living in and six and a third acres of forest. It would be very difficult for me to feel bad. I'd have to really work at it.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. So there's something...

Julie Henderson: And I have cats.

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Yeah. So there's something to knowing yourself that well to know what you, what you like and what you don't.

Julie Henderson: Yeah. And to practice noticing what we like rather more thoroughly than what we don't like. It is important to notice what you don't like, but it's better to notice more often what you do like so that you don't get stuck in not liking.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and that makes me think of your concept of appropriate touch, which is something I'm really curious to hear more about from you because it seems like... When I think about the sexual paradigm that we're all born into, the ways that we learn to experience pleasure with each other. And actually, I don't want to say born into, it's more like, "This is what our culture is created," and we're seeing a lot of this manifest right now in the Me Too movement and recognition that a lot of people are feeling violated in the name of at least one person's pleasure others are feeling super violated and disrespected, and so I'm curious to where this brings a couple so that they can experience each other and awaken pleasure and awaken touch with each other in a way that is appropriate. That's the word that comes to mind for me. So can you talk a little bit about what that means for you, appropriate touch and how that enters the picture?

Julie Henderson: Okay. If I were to talk about it just as me, rather than me in relationship to somebody, I would say it's interesting. I would first ask my body, ask myself as a body if there was some touching that it would like, that I would like and whether that would be, for example, to go outside and lean up against one of the trees or whether it would be asking one of the cats to sit in my lap and purr, or because there's... At the moment there's nobody else living in this house except me. It's just me. Only me.

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: One of the things, one of the things that's very, very helpful. If there are two people that are either confused about how to approach touching each other, or just wanting to be very tender and slow with something. If you sit back to back so that you can feel your heart from behind and you can feel your heart touching the presence of your partner's heart. That's a very, very helpful thing to do. It's very respectful and it's very tender.

Neil Sattin: So okay, I'm going to ask maybe a sort of crass question.

Julie Henderson: Crass on sweetheart.

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Okay. How do you get from back-to-back to front-to-front?

Julie Henderson: Well, not all at once. [chuckle] Take your time and sit side-to-side. Sit side-to-side on the ground, so that your thighs are contacting each other and hold hands, I would say. I think that would be a lovely thing to do. You can also do that lying down, which is nice. If you do that lying down and then reach across and hold each other's hearts, so if I am lying down with my friend, Tony, and we are side-by-side, the whole side of the body touching each other, and I reach across and put my hand on his heart, and he reaches across and puts his hand on my heart, that's a very full embrace really. And it's easy to maintain for a short time or a longer time, without trying to make it sexy. It can easily become sexual, if both people are wanting to do that, and if they feel safe to do that, but they don't have to do that.

Neil Sattin: And what are the energetics that are going on when this is happening? What are the energetics that are happening within a body and then between bodies?

Julie Henderson: You mean what is, how is the body expressing its experience of what's happening?

Neil Sattin: Sure, and I think this also goes in a little bit to your ideas about what is happening energetically, in those more subtle levels as bodies interact with bodies, and hopefully, present bodies interacting with present bodies.

Julie Henderson: Well, if the body is not being present, there will be very little if any contact actually. If you mean, by energies, if you mean the sensations that arise in and around the body, when it is not... What? When it's not staying inside its skin. If it lets itself move beyond its skin, then what you would be experiencing would be some of its energy. Otherwise, the energy is felt as movement and sensation when it's inside the body.

Neil Sattin: So if I wanted to taste the energy, the beyond the body experience, what... Yeah, how does one approach that?

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: Well, I would say, first feel... Aha, my bird clock is about to say it's noon. Squeak, squeak. First, it would be a question of recognizing, learning to recognize what those, the sensations of the energy, of being that body, and check it out from one place to another. You know like what does it feel like to be your liver, for example. Bring your attention out of your head into your liver, and feel what the sensations of being a liver are, and just go around the whole body and try them out. And then, if you have the background, you can follow the circuitry, the circuitry of that body, which lots of people have been to classes to learn how to do that. And it's not always the case that the teaching includes noticing that those branches of energy movement, they do not stop at the skin.

Julie Henderson: So you can follow the... I'm trying to think a bit. There are many, many of these ways of... Especially the Chinese. They're very good about teaching people to perceive the movement of these channels, and you can follow them from each of the chakras, and each one, each chakra has more or less numbers of first a location within the body, and then these channels that go out from each of the bodies, each of the...

Neil Sattin: The chakras.

Julie Henderson: Yeah, each of the chakras, yeah. And when you follow them, they will come to the edge of the body, and you just don't automatically stop there. You let that channel and the movement of energy through that channel extend beyond the skin. And the more you have practice doing that qi, the more access you have to feeling your awareness and presence beyond the body. And then, not only your own but others.

Neil Sattin: Why would someone want to do this?

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: Well, some people would like to do it because it's fun.

Neil Sattin: Right. Fun and cool, yeah.

Julie Henderson: Yup, and then it's an exploration for many people. They discover that they can do that and then they say, "Well, I wonder what goes with that? If I do that, what will I discover?" There are many, many, many, many things that people discover about being a body that are beyond the body.

Neil Sattin: So that brings me to two questions. Earlier you mentioned something depending on our background. And it's funny to me, in some ways, that I feel like we've done this interview backwards because typically we would have started here, but I would love for you to give our listeners just a sense of your background. Like where does all this work come from for you?

Julie Henderson: Depends on which aspect of it we would like to look at first. I guess the earliest would be that both of my parents were actors, and they were, at least until I was 12, they were frequently preparing for roles. And so I had a lot of support in feeling things and feeling, and I just relaxed about doing things that are a little odd. And that was enhanced when I went to Cal, to the university, because although I started out studying chemistry, I rapidly discovered that what I really wanted to do was to learn to act, so I did that. And after I graduated from the university, I spent a lot of time studying and I learned a lot from that. I'm trying to think... Round about the same time, I met my first Tibetan teacher, and from that time, until just the last few years, the main influence on me was my Tibetans.

Julie Henderson: And, most recently, one of... Well, about a year ago, my closest teacher died. And so, I have spent time being aware of him, completely without restriction on his presence. So, he's been very, very vast, I would say, very vast. And his son, who is still being a body, since I don't have any children, and I was trying to think, I want to try and find a way of preserving this house and land for people to practice in and support themselves with, and I was going to ask my main teacher's son if he would like to have it as a place to come in California when he was not... When he was moving around a lot. And he thought, "Well, here's a nice thing." I was... I did not, and have not for some time, had his telephone number.

Julie Henderson: So, I was saying to myself, "Well, let's see. Who... Cornelia doesn't have his telephone number, but Philip has his telephone number. I will ask Cornelia if I can have Philip's telephone number, so that I can call Philip and ask him if he would give me access to Drukchen's telephone number just long enough for me to ask him this question, and then I would erase it from my mind." And so, as I was formulating that plan in my mind, this Tibetan placed himself in my mind, and it's very straightforward that it actually feels like a physical happening.

Julie Henderson: So, I told him, "I was trying to get your phone number to ask you if you'd like to have access to this place as a refuge when I have died." And he said, "No," very straightforwardly, "No, because I want what you do to have its own lineage. I don't want it to be attached to me. I want it to be what you do and for people to learn from what you do, and not think it's about me." So, I said, "Okay," and that's the plan. I still don't know what I'm going to do with my property, but probably I will live another 10 years, and then, maybe, I will know.

Neil Sattin: Perhaps that will...

Julie Henderson: Is that making any sense?

Neil Sattin: Yeah. And perhaps the answer of what you will do, perhaps that will come to you similarly.

Julie Henderson: Oh, yeah. I just know that it's not going to be from him. It might be his son. I mean, his father, who as I say is being great space, I would say. He's being great space. So, maybe it might come out of great space. That's quite possible.

Neil Sattin: And there's something about the Tibetan lineage or your teachers that you mention in your books, that their method of instruction is very experiential.

Julie Henderson: With me, certainly it is. There are... In the Tibetan culture, there are at least several ways of approaching what they teach that are different parts of adjunct lineages. And this one, the ones that they hooked me with, my ones, is very... It's not about something in a book, it's about the direct experience of how they are, and being influenced by how they are.

Neil Sattin: So...

Julie Henderson: They don't teach everybody that way.

Neil Sattin: I see, I see. From my perspective, it feels really important given all the things that we've talked about over this past hour because so many of them sound so simple as a concept and yet you don't really get to experience it until you experience it, until you try and see what it actually does for you, with you.

Julie Henderson: Yeah, that is very true.

Neil Sattin: And the name of your work, you've called Zapchen, and we haven't talked about that at all, this entire time. What does Zapchen mean? Why that word?

Julie Henderson: Well, it is a Tibetan word and it has a number of meanings. It is often a word that is associated with children in Tibetan. So sometimes it means that they're being playful, sometimes it means that they're being naughty, and when it applies to grownups... Let's see, at one time I asked one of my secondary Tibetan teachers, "What's Zapchen? What does it mean really? What does it mean in Tibetan?" And he looked a little startled because actually it turns out it's a naughty word.

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: You wouldn't just go out and say Zapchen, Zapchen because most Tibetans would not use that word, especially proper women. One time I was having a... My teacher and his wife and his son were in San Francisco and spending some time and they were going to be teaching in San Francisco and in Berkeley so that was very nice, and we were having lunch and they were speaking Tibetan. And I don't know squat all, really about Tibetan, it's a very difficult language, but in the middle of the conversation, Drukchen, the son was talking to his mama, and used the word Zapchen and she giggled and he smiled naughtily himself and that was the closest I came until I had the opportunity to talk to this Tibetan monk when I was in Nepal and I said, "If it would be okay, would you tell me what Zapchen means?"

Julie Henderson: And he smiled and looked a little sheepish, and then he said, "Well, if I were a married man and I had to go on a trip away so that my wife was at home, and she went to the... To the... What? To the... To the... " I don't even know... My brain is draining. "To the place where you buy beer and spent time with another man, that would be Zapchen." So that's the only understanding, it's a complicated word.

Neil Sattin: So then I gotta ask, "Why did you... "

Julie Henderson: Ask us.

Neil Sattin: Yes. Why did you choose it for your work?

Julie Henderson: Well, long before the story that I just told you, when I was still living in Australia, I spent time teaching out in the country, and there were some Tibetan monks, but there also was very high, a high Lama who were there and they found out that the name of what I was doing there was Zapchen and they laughed about it and I said, "Well, what is it about it that's funny?" And I still don't know quite the answer to that question but it was clear that it was a naughty word and... I'm trying to think. The very, very, very first time that I decided to use it I really don't know why. I mean, but of course it had to do with my Tibetan teachers but why did I choose that? No, I don't know. I guess I just liked it.

Neil Sattin: It's another part of the mystery, I guess.

Julie Henderson: I guess.

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: Well, Julie, I so appreciate your time and your wisdom and your offerings today, and your work, as I mentioned, is so fascinating and I think so deceptively simple, at least in terms of what we've talked about, I know it gets deeper and more complex and you've been doing what you do for decades and so it would be ludicrous to think that we could distill all of that into an hour long conversation but I so appreciate that you've been willing to show up here and give us a starting point for Zapchen...

Julie Henderson: My pleasure.

Neil Sattin: In your practices. What is the best way for people to find out more about your work, if they are interested in finding out more?

Julie Henderson: Well, they can call me.

[chuckle]

Julie Henderson: It depends really on what they want to know. They can read the books. The books are pretty good.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, the books are great.

Julie Henderson: They can find people like your way. There's a woman in Vermont who teaches not just what she has learned from me but from part of that she teaches. There are people in Chicago. There are people in Arizona. And lots of people in Germany and Austria and Australia. I don't know actually what is inherent in your question. You mean, if they would like to learn more or...

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, and I think what we can do is we can have some links on, in the transcript for this conversation, we can make sure that we have links to your website. And I think that's probably a good starting point for a lot of people, and then I know that if you...

Julie Henderson: There are people in Germany who would like to be able to get a copy of the script.

Neil Sattin: Yes, we will ensure that that happens. And for those of you who are listening right now, you can download a copy if you visit neilsattin.com/julie, J-U-L-I-E, or you can always text the word Passion to the number 33444 and follow the instructions, and that way you can download the transcript to this episode. And, Julie, I'm wondering if, since probably we have a mix of people who are listening to this, we have people who are just being introduced to you, and I know that your students are going to be excited to hear your voice, and I'm wondering if there's just anything that comes up for you, as sort of a final encouragement or offering for everyone who's listening and has been tuning in.

Julie Henderson: I would say it's a very good grounding. It's a very good starting place and the people who have worked with me, let's say 10 years or more become very good teachers and frequently tell me how much they appreciate what they've learned from me and that they can share it with other people in a way that's accessible and helpful. It's just nice to hear.

Neil Sattin: That's great, yeah. And I was speaking earlier with one of your long-time colleagues and students, Laura.

Julie Henderson: Laura.

Neil Sattin: Laura Lund and she mentioned that there are at least probably 500 practitioners worldwide of Zapchen and then if you include the people that they've taught probably thousands of people who have been impacted by your work.

Julie Henderson: That would be nice, that would be nice.

Neil Sattin: Well, I so appreciate your time again today and thank you so much for joining us and maybe we can have you back on one of these days to talk about some more of the finer points, but this definitely feels like an excellent starting place for us in embodying well-being.

Julie Henderson: Right, I think so, I think it is. And if people are interested enough to try it out, I think they would probably then discover that they have questions that they'd like to pursue. And the books are good for that or if they become very interested they could be in touch with me.

Neil Sattin: Great, thank you. We will ensure that they have your information through your website in the show guide.

Julie Henderson: I don't know that anybody goes to that website anymore.

Neil Sattin: I went. [chuckle]

Julie Henderson: Okay. Well, go then do it.

Neil Sattin: But if there's a...

Julie Henderson: It worked for you.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, somehow, somehow it did.

 

How do you prevent fear from getting in the way of your connection? Sometimes your fears are obvious - other times they’re more subtle - but no matter what they can potentially drive a wedge between you and your partner. In the fourth episode of our “Core Relationship Principles” series, Chloe Urban and I show you exactly how to choose intimacy over fear, deal with the natural fears that arise, and identify your patterns so you can be aware & determine if you’re choosing intimacy or fear.

How does your emotional intelligence help you develop a relationship with someone? Is your emotional intelligence something you can improve? And...what are the kinds of things that you should steer away from because they undermine the ways that you’re relating to the people around you, and the one you love? This week, our guest is Jordan Harbinger. Often referred to as “The Larry King of podcasting,” Jordan is a Wall Street lawyer turned interview talk show host, and communications & social dynamics expert. On The Jordan Harbinger Show, Jordan deconstructs the playbooks of the most successful people on earth and shares their strategies, perspectives, and practical insights with the rest of us. In this episode, you’ll learn what emotional intelligence is and how you can improve it to have a positive impact on your relationships. We’ll also dive into how you can improve your self-awareness which is something that can be a challenge for anyone.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

Sponsors:

Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode is being sponsored by two amazing companies with special offers for you.

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Resources:

Visit Jordan Harbinger’s website to listen to his podcast, The Jordan Harbinger Show.

Get access to Jordan’s Six Minute Networking — for free.

FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship

Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE)

Visit www.neilsattin.com/jordan to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Jordan Harbinger.

Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

Transcript:

Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of "Relationship Alive". This is your host, Neil Sattin. On today's show, we're going to explore the question of how to relate better with your partner, your girlfriend, your boyfriend, your whomever with other people in your life and perhaps, also how you relate better to yourself. And when I talk about relating better, I'm going to distinguish it a little bit from the kinds of things that we typically talk about on the show because we're really talking about, more often than not, establishing emotional safety and how to handle problems and those kinds of things. But I wanted to bring in an expert who can really dive into the topic of: What does it even mean to develop a relationship with someone and what are the kinds of conditions that make that easier so that you're actually more efficient in how you communicate, you're more likely to actually like each other? And on the flip side, what are the kinds of things that you might want to steer away from, that would be undermining the ways that you're relating to the people around you and specifically in your partnership?

Neil Sattin: So, today's guest is... This came about in an unusual way. We actually got chatting on LinkedIn, of all places. I'm hardly ever on LinkedIn, but in the process and just talking about our podcasts, deciding that this person would be a great guest for the show to talk about these things that I just mentioned to you. His name is Jordan Harbinger, and he is formerly the host of the Art of Charm Podcast, which you may have heard of. He now has his own show and it's already gotten over a million downloads in its first month alone, and he is focused on how to develop these skills of relatedness and succeed in your life, in your connections. And I'm really excited to have you here with me today, Jordan. So, welcome to Relationship Alive.

Jordan Harbinger: Hey, thanks for having me on, man. It is weird. I'm never on LinkedIn. I go on once a month to kinda go, "Hey, I'm never on LinkedIn stop sending me messages here." And there you were.

Neil Sattin: And yeah, it was kinda like that, I think. Yeah. I think, in fact, your message to me said, "Hey, if we know each other, connect with me on Facebook," or something like that.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. Yeah. If we know each other, then you probably should know I'm never going to answer this message if you reply. Yeah, that's pretty much what it was.

Neil Sattin: That's so funny. And yet there we were.

Jordan Harbinger: Yep.

Neil Sattin: So, Jordan, here we are, you're on the heels of getting your new show going. Tell me in a nutshell, what do you like to say is your specialty? When you're helping people out in life, what's your elevator pitch in a sense of how you are helping people achieve more success in their lives?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. So for now, what I do on the Jordan Harbinger Show is I study the thoughts, the actions, and habits of brilliant people and ask them interesting questions so that the audience can apply that same wisdom for themselves. So, I steal guests' superpowers and deliver them to the listener.

Neil Sattin: Awesome.

Jordan Harbinger: And so, that's what I do on the show. But what we do at "Advanced Human Dynamics", which is my training company where we teach live events, have products and things like that, where we teach networking rapport, relationship development for professional reasons and things like that. Essentially, that slogan is TBD, I guess you would say but really what we do is we teach emotional intelligence in a systematic way that anyone can learn and understand.

Neil Sattin: Perfect. That may be the title of this episode. And let's dive in there. I watched a video of yours prior to this conversation, and I think a great place to start is this concept of ABG, or to "Always Be Giving". And especially in the context of relationship because a lot of the times when people come to me as a coach, they're in this place of scarcity in their relationship. And when I start suggesting that, well, the way to get to the other side and to actually feel good about your relationship is to start showing up even more brightly, more brilliantly and more, in some respect, selflessly in your relationship. People sometimes look at me cross-eyed like, "Wait a minute. Well, I came here to tell you just how much my partner is failing me." So, let's start maybe with a concept of "Always Be Giving" and where that's come from for you and why it's so important.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. So, the reason that this is important, I'd love to say, I had this great moment in my life where I realized that this had to happen for me. What really happened was I was pretty good in school when I was a kid and then, I got to college and everybody was smart and I couldn't just rely on that so, I had to outwork everyone. I shifted my competitive advantage to outworking everyone from just being smart enough to teach myself Geometry the day of a test, right? And then when I got to Wall Street as an attorney, everyone was smart and everyone was working 20 hours a day, seven days a week or 16 hours or whatever it was.

Jordan Harbinger: And so I didn't have a competitive advantage. And I started to learn how to build relationships, to try to get to the top of the law game, to become a partner to bring in business. And what I'd realized was schmoozing and handing out business cards and all that stuff. It really didn't work trying to take classes from, no offense to the Dale Carnegie organization, they do great stuff, but trying to learn how to win friends and influence people from a guy in a sweater vest at the YMCA just was very limited. You would take those classes and you'd go, great, you've gotta have a firm handshake and you've gotta have good eye contact, and you gotta use these mnemonic devices to remember that someone's kids played tennis. But at the same time, if somebody doesn't like you and they're not giving your law firm business, it's not because, "Well, you broke eye contact a little too early there, let's give the business to the other guys." It's because they don't freaking like you or they don't trust you.

Jordan Harbinger: So I dedicated myself to figuring out what was going on there, and that's where the principle of ABG came from. 'cause if your ABC, Always be closing, you're trying to close business, you're trying to close... You're trying to match people with a service that you provide. So if I meet you, I go, "What do you do?" And you go, "Oh, I'm a relationship coach," and I go, "Ah I don't need that." And I move on to the next person. Your experience of me is kinda like, "That wasn't so great," and I don't really get any social capital from dealing with you. You don't get anything from me. It's a waste of both of our time. I'm searching for needles in haystacks if I'm trying to generate legal referrals, but if I'm ABG, always be generous or always be giving. This is logistically easier because I'm not trying to match a need that you have with a service I provide. I'm just trying to find out who in my network would be a good connection with you. That opens up all kinds of opportunity. "Oh, you're a relationship coach? Oh man. I have a bunch of friends in that industry."

Jordan Harbinger: "Do you know this person, this person, this person? Oh, what are you looking for in your business? Are you looking for clients like that? Oh, then you should go on some of these podcasts that my friends run, they do these relationship things. Maybe you guys could be a fit." So in that respect, ABG shifts the value proposition in sales terms from your skill, if you're a graphic designer or a lawyer, it shifts it to becoming your network itself. Right. So, everybody I meet, I try to plug into somebody else in my network. I meet a CPA. "Great. I know a bunch of cryptocurrency investors that don't know how to plan for taxes. Let me introduce you." "Are you a relationship coach? Great. I know a bunch of people who could probably use your help. Let me plug you into them." I'm not trying to match it to myself. I'm trying to match it to others. I'm not thinking about what I'm going to get in return. I have no attachment to what I'm going to get in return. So it becomes scalable for me to network with anybody and it becomes something that I don't have to think about because I'm not trying to get something for myself. Does that all make sense?

Neil Sattin: Yeah, absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: So this wasn't of some kind of spiritual awakening type of deal that I need, that I found. It was never anything like that. It was always something to do with the practicality of the situation. It was always just, hey, this is working. It wasn't because I'm a great, nice guy and I decided I'm just going to be giving. That I'd like to think is the truth. But when I look back, it was surely a matter of practicality. The reason I kept doing it for 11 years, throughout my business was because I was teaching this as a skill and it was a really nice way to live because people go, Jordan's so nice. He keeps doing these valuable things for me in my business. I really like dealing with him. It paid off very quickly later on, but I certainly started for selfish reasons, and I encourage everybody to just try it. You don't have to be this pushover who gets walked on. Just try this from a purely logistical standpoint, it's still going to be a win for you.

Neil Sattin: And where this also for me, connects into what might happen in a romantic partnership, is if you're always focused on what the other person can do for you, then, as you said, that's not scalable. There's a very limited number of interactions that you can have. And I think the way people in relationships often experience that is a slow deadening of their connection because there are only so many possibilities right for how they're going to interact with each other. But as they learn to not only enjoy each other's company but also to really support each other in being big and bright in the world. So creating those connections to others in life for their partner or supporting their partner in how they do that, then that creates a ton more energy and vibrancy, and it does, I think, feedback into the system, that vibrancy and energy becomes something that strengthens your relationship, as opposed to what people often experience which is, "Oh, that threatens me." Which would, I think, be why like in a business setting, someone might not connect two people because they might be like, "Oh, well that's... Then I'm kind of cutting myself out of the equation” and at the risk of being cliche - It's sort of like the scarcity mindset versus the abundance mindset.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I appreciate that for sure. And I also... The reason I say try it from a selfish perspective is because I don't want to... I'm always about the abundance mindset, and I'm always about trying things that are good for other people. I realize that's a hard sell, especially if you're in your 20s or even in your 30s, and you're thinking, "No, no, no, you don't understand. I need to get things for myself because I've been too lax with that." Or, "I know I need to help myself first." That's an easier sell for most people, especially guys, I've found. So I go, "Go ahead and try it from a purely selfish perspective and it'll still work as a tactic." But what you'll quickly find is, "Gee, I really like being nice and helping other people because this is really fun." And, "Holy crap does this work!" But also, I look like a great guy and I feel like a great guy. So I'm going to start being good in my relationships with other people and generous in my relationships with other people, all the time because it seems limitless at that point.

Jordan Harbinger: But if you just tell people, "No, no, no, trust me. Turn the other cheek and forgive people, and ABG." They go, "Okay, whatever. I'm broke. You don't understand." Like, "This, I need this. You don't get it." It becomes a problem and you have to sort of fight. You have to sell it like, "No, no, no, no. This is better for your psyche." And people who go, "I don't care about that. I need to win." So try it, you'll still win. You'll win either way.

Neil Sattin: Since you were mentioning the... Trust has come up a couple of times already, I'm curious for you, What do you think are the key components of developing trust with someone, and maybe this is someone new? And then this also again, comes up a lot in relationships where breakdowns happen and you're in a position where you have to rebuild trust with your partner.

Jordan Harbinger: Sure. This is a huge subject. I'm sure you've done 700 hours on this particular topic. But when you're trying to bring trust into a new relationship, it's probably likely... It's likely a lot of the same stuff that you would do in any relationship. But I think any new relationship really... We're evolved to figure out quickly whether or not someone's trustworthy. And this isn't like, "Look at their eyes and if they're looking upward, they're lying and not trustworthy." We really are as humans, sort of evolved to trust certain people implicitly and not trust other people; the outsiders of the tribe implicitly. So the top things that I think you can do are small gestures that show that you do what you say you were going to do if that makes sense.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So these small gestures that you would want to do. For example, going back on the ABG subject, if I say, "Neil, man, this is really great. I would love to introduce you to a few people." And you go, "Yeah, I would love those introductions." And then I never do it. You're not like, "Jordan's a jerk. He never introduced me to those people. I hate him." But what you are thinking is, "Yeah, I guess he's just one of those guys who is too busy and he forgot." Or, "He offers to do something, but then it doesn't quite materialize. That's fine, whatever. No, I don't hate him or anything." But you don't trust me. You might still like me but you don't really trust me. So we're not going to end up doing business together because if I... Most likely. Because if I decide to do something and I say, "Hey, you know, you and I should create a product." You're thinking, "Yeah, but you also said that you would introduce me to those people and that never happened, so I'll take it with a grain of salt." On the other hand, these very small gestures of, "Hey, I should make these introductions." If I do those the same day that we met, generally, that signals professionalism in a way that is trustworthy. You go, "Wow, okay. He actually just did that. It didn't take a week. I didn't have to remind him. He didn't forget.

Jordan Harbinger: He wrote it down and he did it." Literally, that's unusual. We find that unusual in today's day and age for someone to actually do what they say they're going to do, which the bar is low, for that basic level of trust. And so I say, create an opportunity for yourself, in that you're going to make an introduction, you're going to send somebody a piece of knowledge, an article, a book, something like that. It really, really easily is attainable. You can really generate some trust right off the bat that's easily attainable, I should say. And so what I mean is, create that opportunity, follow through on that opportunity and you'll end up with a slight amount of trust. Now, this isn't going to be like, "Hey, I made those introductions. Can you lend me 10 grand?" But you build it up over time and it's always these little things that count. It's showing up on time, not flaking the morning of the day before. And I know what people are thinking, "Well, those sound more like habits than ways to build trust." I find that people who are untrustworthy, they're not necessarily bad people. Sure, you should distrust some people because they are bad. They will screw you over. But most people are simply irresponsible. It's more of a negligent lack of trust. Does that make sense?

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah. And I'm just... I'm letting that percolate a little bit 'cause I think that's totally true that, in the end, yeah, it's just kind of people's inability... That trust is really the whole sum of what you experience with a person and their consistency. And their consistency has a lot to do with their integrity and their ability to just follow through on basic commitments, is what it comes right down to.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. And I know that that sounds like a dumb technique, but the reason that we don't trust people is, it seems like, "Oh, well, this person cheated on me." Great, yeah, distrust them. That makes sense. Usually though, when we have a casual lack of trust, it's not because of a big lapse. It's literally because of, "Well, yeah, they say they're going to be there at 4:00, but... " And you know people like this, "Yeah, Jim said he's going to be here at 4:00." "No, no, no, no. Let's just go to the restaurant. He can meet us there." "Oh, what? Why?" "Yeah, yeah, Jim's not going to be there at 4:00. Let's just go eat. We'll order some appetizers and some drinks and we'll wait for him to show up," and sure enough Jim rolls in at 5:15, and everyone knows that. And that seems like that's just him. But how many people are making plans with him all the time and relying on him to do what he says? We always have to build in a buffer. I have friends like this in my circle. "Oh yeah, she's not going to be ready on time. Let's just go there. She can meet us there. We wait for her, we're going to be two hours late every time." And we all have people like that in our lives. We tend to go, "Lack of trust is this big giant thing. How do we make up for a lack of trust in a relationship and a friendship and an intimate relationship?" Man, that's not it.

Jordan Harbinger: It's not showing up on time. It's not doing what you say you're going to do. It's offering to do something and then failing. It's changing your mind and not having the guts to tell somebody that you changed your mind, so you just hope they forget. So you fail them in that way. That's how lack of trust starts. It's a set of habits that you have regardless of whether or not you're treating everyone like that, that's really the reason people don't like and trust people I shouldn't even say like and trust. It's a reason people don't trust others, and trust is more important for business. It may be different in personal relationships, but I personally have done plenty of business with people that I don't necessarily like that much, but that I trust. It's the most important thing. I know there are people that aren't going to rip me off that are going to show up on time, that are going to deliver when they say they're going to deliver, but I wouldn't necessarily hang out with them. But there are plenty of people that I hang out with all the time where if they said, "Hey, we should do this business together," I would say, "No offense, but hell no."

[chuckle.]

Jordan Harbinger: I think we all probably could think of people like that if we had to.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and one other thing that occurs to me too, is how helpful it can be. So if you're sitting here and you're listening to all these things and you're like, well, honestly, a little bit like me, or you're like, "Oh shit, I've done that. I see how I've undermined trust left and right". To be willing to actually show that you are noticing that about yourself, so potentially as a way to repair lapses in trust with your friends and your partner, to be able to say, "Hey, " know I made this commitment and I recognize that I didn't do that." Or, "I recognize that I didn't show up on time when I said I was going to." 'Cause I think one of the things that really is detrimental is when there's this unspoken, like, "Does this person even realize what they're doing? Or maybe it's intentional," that's where you get into that question of, "Is it negligence or is it actual malicious intent?" So much can be clarified by actually connecting around that very thing.

Jordan Harbinger: I agree with you. Yeah, I agree with you 100%, and I think it's something we don't normally think about really.

Neil Sattin: I wonder Jordan, for you, when you look at the big picture of being giving, making connections, how do you suggest someone recognize in themselves the ways that they are doing really well and then the ways that they're falling short so that they could do a self-diagnosis on their ability to show up and be trustworthy and make great connections with people?

Jordan Harbinger: Well, that's a cool question. I haven't put a ton of thought into this, but I'll tell you right now, one of the best ways to get this kind of feedback or to get this kind of assessment done would be to get feedback with other people that will tell you the truth. We don't always have friends like this, but I think that we all have a friend or two like this where we can say, "hey, look, do people think that I show up... What is my reputation like?" And they go "oh everyone loves you men what are you talking about?" "no, no like what is my reputation like, do people trust me, etcetera?" And people go, "yeah, of course, they trust you." So if you have an inkling though of what your flaw might be, I would ask specifically about that. So I would say "I did borrow money from you guys for John's birthday, and it took me like a year to pay everyone back. Does anybody talk about that, think about that?". "Do you talk about that think about that". "Honestly, I'm looking for real honest feedback here", and I've done this in my social circle.

Jordan Harbinger: I know other people in our circles evade honest conversations about this. Sometimes invited by the other party and other times foisted upon them for good reason. It's very important because people will say, "Yeah, honestly, I've thought twice about lending money to you and your girlfriend and in recent past, because it did take me a year to get paid back. I had to ask like 10 times and it just got awkward and I felt like it sort of poisoned friendship a little bit, we're still super tight, still love you guys, but I don't want to go through that again 'cause it was kind of a pain." Oh, okay. Maybe you should work on that. Maybe you don't realize how that's been affecting certain people in your circle. Other people who show if you think you show up late and it's fine, you might want to say, "Hey, I realize I'm always the last one here," and don't do this to the whole group during a party. [chuckle] They're not going to want to answer this at that point. This is like, you're hanging out with your friend on a balcony, relaxing having a beer at the end of the night, or you show up and you're the only person there having coffee with a buddy, or you have a phone call and you go, "Hey man look, I just want some honest feedback."

Jordan Harbinger: You have to frame it that you want honest to goodness feedback, ask one person at a time. Because then you're more likely not to get a group going, "Hey it's Tim's birthday, let's talk about this another time." "Oh, you're good bro, don't worry about it, it's fine. Here have a beer. Change the subject." That's not going to get you legit feedback. You really need to find one or two people that you think are going to give you honest feedback and you need to get them alone. And then you need to ask about the specific things 'cause I would say Neil that you kinda know. Right, if you're going, "I don't get why people to trust me," either you have a massive lack of self-awareness, or you've somehow forgotten about an incident, or maybe there's some other devious stuff going on, but probably not. Probably you know that you're always the last one there because it takes you two hours to get ready and you don't plan ahead.

Jordan Harbinger: Probably you know that you've owed people a thousand dollars for two years and you think they forgot, but they didn't. But they're too polite to say anything and you're just kinda dodging it. You know this stuff, you know it. You know? That becomes problematic. When it's more vague is when you go, "Hey, do you find that I complain too much?" "Oh yeah. Actually, I wasn't going to say anything, but yes, you do. You've been very negative since your break up or your divorce, and we understand it 'cause it's rough, but sometimes it does grate on other people." That's harder to get because you might not even notice.

Neil Sattin: Right.

Jordan Harbinger: But for all this other stuff, man, come on, you know? You know.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. The phrase that's coming to me ironically, is from 12 step, the fearless moral inventory, like actually being willing to just sit down and make a list of all those things where you just know.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, that's great. I like that. And you do, you just know. "Oh, why didn't I get promoted, this is BS. The other guy just brown nosed the boss". "So have you ever failed on a project?" "No." "Well, what time do you show up for work"? "9:30." "What time does everybody else show up for work?" "8:30." "Okay, so you show up an hour later than everyone else." "What time do you leave?" "5:00." "What time does everyone else leave?" "Five, maybe a little later." "Okay, so you show up late and you leave early?" "Well yeah, but I get my work done. I'm really good at it." "Are you? Who's been the project lead on everything?" "Well, the other guy." "Alright, well, what's going on here?" "Alright, fine." "So is it really 'cause he brown nosed the boss? Or you just not really giving it your all?" You have to be honest with yourself about this. You do know, you know, you at least have a clue.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: No one...

Neil Sattin: This does get tricky, right? Because you get into that zone of self-assessment and people... I forget what the effect is, there's some name for it, but where people always assess themselves better than the world might objectively assess them, or that you don't necessarily know what you don't know and you probably run into this in terms of teaching people emotional intelligence skills where they're like, wow, it finally kinda dawns in them, "Wow I didn't realize that by not taking a moment to actually listen to what someone was telling me and let it affect me in some way that they were feeling like I didn't even hear them." That there are probably core skills or awarenesses that people don't have because they haven't been able to experience the world through that filter, through that lens.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think you're probably right, there's going to be some people that don't know what they don't know, and that could be caused by a lot of different things like if you've got a substance abuse problem, then maybe you're not thinking about the fact that you owed someone $500 for two years. You've got other stuff on your plate. So maybe this will come in handy then. But I think for the average moderately more or less healthy person, there's going to be stuff where you kinda think you're getting away with it, and then you're like, "ah, it's fine. She never complains about this. So it's fine." My wife a couple of weeks ago, asked me, she goes, "What percentage of the housework would you say that you do?" And I went, "Oh, I don't know, 5%?" And she goes, "Really?" And I go, "Yeah, I don't know. Maybe even less." And she goes, "No, I would say you do between five and 10 percent." And I said, "Oh, great." And she goes, "I'm really glad to hear you say that." And I said, "Why?" And she goes, "'Cause I thought you were going to say like 50%" and I said, "No, not a chance."

Jordan Harbinger: She was very pleased to hear that. She didn't say, "You gotta get off your ass and do more." But she was very glad to hear that I didn't think that I was doing exactly the same amount of stuff as she was, 'cause I'm not, and I'm very aware of that. But if she went, "You know, it kinda bothers me that you don't do this and this and this and this," I would have known that I had behavior change coming. And I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize this. I think a lot of people go, "Oh yeah, I pull my own weight around here." And the whole team is kinda like shaking their head going, "What are you talking? Are you serious? You really think that you do the same amount of work on our projects as us. We're just waiting until somebody figures out you don't do squat and you get fired. Are you crazy?"

Jordan Harbinger: You know, you should figure that out on your own or with the help of other people in the team before you have a performance review at work. Or before you have a significant other that goes, "You know what, I am so sick and tired of you freeloading and not paying rent, and having me do all the work and you're playing Xbox when I get home. Who the hell do you think you are?" You know that there's a hint there, and if you don't, you can get a hint by asking. Most people are going to give you that hint. And look, if you ask, and the other person goes, "No, it's totally fine." And then when you break up, she's like, "There are 87 things wrong with you," then they're to share for some of that blame. But at the end of the day who's suffering the consequences, you are. So figure it out.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah this makes me think a little bit too of that strategy that a lot of people use when they're single where you say, identify your ideal partner and then you figure out, "Well, who would I have to be in order to have this amazing partner?" There's an element of that in what we're talking about. It's being willing to look at yourself and say, "Okay, who would I have to be to be in an amazing relationship if my relationship is suffering or if my work life is suffering? Who would I have to be... " Being willing to, sure, look out around because there are probably some examples of that in the people who are doing better at it than you. But also, I think it's a great, great kinda counterpoint to be able to say like, "Oh yeah, if I wanted my partner to trust me, then maybe I would have to call home instead of just being AWOL for three hours after work or something along those lines.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think you're probably right, and I think it's tough to ask yourself that second question, "Who would I need to be?" Because what we find is that we go, "Here's my dream partner. Well, who would I need to be to get this person? Are you kidding me? I'm freakin' phenomenal. [chuckle] I'm already there. I'm authentically me. I'm just want to be myself." And I noticed, this is kinda funny too 'cause you see, I noticed men do this a lot. They go, "If she doesn't like me for me, then screw it." And I go, "Okay, well, you're wearing a jersey with a mustard stain on it. You're a little bit overweight, okay, you're a lot overweight. You clearly don't care at work. You're not really trying to get ahead. And what kind of woman are you looking for? Oh, someone that goes to the gym, takes care of herself, looks really good, gets really done up to go out, impresses all your friends, has an education." So, they have to work their butt off, but you get to be authentically you? [chuckle] That seems fair, right?

[laughter]

Jordan Harbinger: And it's like, "Oh, well, if she doesn't like me for me, then fine. Well, good, she doesn't like you for you. You are not good enough. You do not deserve what you want. No one really says that though, right? That's kind of not cool to be that guy in a friendship or the very many relationship coaches are not going to say, "You really don't deserve what you want," because the client goes, "Screw you. I'm going to hire somebody else." I kind of understand that, but that's not very effective coaching wise. I think a lot of guys especially... And I say this among guys, it's really probably equally shared, but I used to coach guys far more than women, and a lot of guys just don't deserve what they want. [laughter] They really don't. They're not putting in any effort at all, and yet they expect the complete polar inverse when they are going for a member of the opposite sex and... Or even the same sex. There are plenty of same-sex relationships [chuckle] where one party goes, "Well, he just has to like me for me, or she just has to like me for me." And they're putting in absolutely no effort, but expect the other party to do so.

Jordan Harbinger: So you have to work on yourself and become who you need to be to get that person involved with you. You have to have a world that is so welcoming that somebody else wants to be a part of it. You can't just take that for granted, especially if you don't really want to be a part of your world. Think about what kind of person that's going to attract.

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: What do you think is the obstacle for people being willing to put in the effort? Because it does require effort to not just coast, to not just leave the mustard stain on your shirts.

Jordan Harbinger: Some of it self-awareness and the other part is a little bit of fear that I think is healthy. Well, there's healthy and unhealthy fear, of course, as you know. The unhealthy fear is, "Well, shoot. If I try and I dress in clothes that fit and I get rid of the mustard stain, what if I don't know what I'm doing? What if I try to grow and I still get rejected, that's going to signal something about who I am as a person instead of just me being able to say, "Oh, these shallow folks, they're not... They don't like me for me." That's a lot easier and a little bit nicer. The other side of that fear is, "Holy crap. I'm not even sure that I know how to get out of this." So it's easier to rationalize that you don't have to. Does that make sense?

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: The side of the fear is, "I don't really know what I'm doing, so I'm just going to say, I should be good enough as I am because I heard that somewhere. Then the other side of that coin is, "What if I do know what to do and I bust my butt and I get coaching from Neil, and I go to the workshops that Jordan has and I create a great network around me and I get a good career, and I still can't get the people in my life that I want, that then signals that I'm inherently not good enough and that's my worst nightmare. It's not a conscious level of thought. Does that make sense?

Neil Sattin: Right. Yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And yeah, I'm just thinking about someone being in that position and what it would take 'cause at that point, yeah, it does take a lot of willingness and courage to even maybe see that that's what's going on with you. Then, yeah, what do you find can help incentivize someone to take that other step? In other words...

Jordan Harbinger: So...

Neil Sattin: I'm imagining too, there could be a lot of people listening to this episode and who are thinking, "Holy shit, I wish I could just get my partner to take that kind of level of responsibility for themselves." To see that, "Oh yeah. If they started to show up with a little bit more ferocity with their lives, how much better our lives together would be." But they need something that's maybe better than a kick in the ass, although maybe that's what it takes sometimes.

Jordan Harbinger: It does take that sometimes. It really does take... It takes a compassionate kick in the ass if it's a friend or if somebody else in your relationship. So here's how... Here's an example of how not to do this. So I had somebody write me recently and go, "I just got married and my wife is not interested in me anymore". I said, "Wow, that's highly unusual. You're a month after your wedding". What happened was they were both really overweight, and the wife lost 110 pounds for the wedding. Then she started saying, "I'm not interested in you anymore because you're still overweight, and you didn't lose any weight." I'm thinking, "I don't think that that's true. Maybe she's really, really self-centered, and she's really not interested in you and she really thinks that she's outgrown you, but that seems unlikely because you did just get married." So my hunch was she's trying to motivate him by saying, "I'm basically not going to sleep with you until you start getting yourself together because I did it. I know it's possible." I'd like to think that that's her positive intent, but I think it's a really negative way to do that by making your partner feel like crap and undesirable doesn't exactly get them to want to go, "You know what? I'm going to get desirable again by watching what I eat and going to work out all the time.

Jordan Harbinger: Thanks, babe." This is probably how she was raised, and how she was motivated by her parents, which backfired, and caused unhealthy habits on her part, which is probably why she was obese in the first place. Potentially, why she was obese in the first place, so there's this unhealthy negative motivation. I think they both need to work on that. That's how you don't do it, right? The way to do it would be to do it together or if you don't need to lose weight if you're fit, and your partner's not, and you really want to motivate them, to make it easy for them and say, "Look, I want you to be around for a long time. I want to be able to enjoy things with you that are going to take physical prowess, and I want to be able to go hiking on the Great Wall of China. And I want to be able to be around for our grandkids. And I'm going to start making healthy food, and I'm going to make stuff that you like that's healthy. And I want you to go to the gym with me. And I want you to follow this program with me because I care about you." You have to motivate people that way.

Jordan Harbinger: And if they don't want to do it for themselves, they'll probably do it for you as their partner. It's different though when it's a friend. When it's a friend, sometimes all you can do is have the harsh truth because you're not going to say, "Look, I don't want to be friends with you 'cause you're overweight." That's ridiculous. But what you might say is, "Hey, you're not allowed to complain about relationship stuff anymore because the reason you're not attracting the women that you want and the men that you want is because you are not in good shape. And you only go after people that are. They're not going to be interested in you. I'm happy to go to the gym with you. I'm happy to get you on a fitness plan. I'm happy to be your accountability buddy. Text me in the morning. I'll text you in the morning, and make sure that you're eating right, make sure that you're going to the gym," things like that. That's fine. But the reason you're not getting what you want is because you aren't doing what you need to do to become who you need to be to get what you want.

Jordan Harbinger: And sometimes, that's the best thing you can do as a friend because really, you can't punish people more than a certain degree as a friend. Because what are you going to do? Cut them off? "You're not allowed to come over anymore because you're fat." That's completely ridiculous. So you have to do it with love as cheesy as that might sound. But some people will not respond to that. But then you have to say, look, you are not allowed to complain about being unhappy because you're single while you're eating a bag of chicharrones for dinner every night. You're just not allowed. I'm not going to hear it. We have a solution. You don't want the solution. So I'm not going to suffer through this anymore. And I know that that sounds harsh, but a lot of times, that social isolation is all you can do as a friend. But you can't isolate them so much that they don't have you in their life anymore or you won't be able to influence them.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, interesting. 'cause I am. I'm struck by the difference in the different kinds of relationships that exist. And how yeah, a friend like for some people, friend groups come and go. It seems a lot more common for someone to feel like somehow they got stuck for instance in this relationship like, "I'm with this person." Maybe we have two kids together, so now I'm really with this person. And what do I do like “They don't want to change?” I'm changing. I'm trying to grow. I'm trying to do everything that I can to have a great life and to make this great. But they're not motivated at all. And what do I do? And I think with that comes, "I like the feeling of accountability." This is actually something we were just talking about on the show with Cheryl Richardson. She talks a lot about self-care and boundaries. But that question of like, "Look, I don't want to dwell any more on the, 'What's going wrong with us?'" Like, "There are things that we could actually do about this."

Neil Sattin: So either you're willing to do them or some of the harsh reality is maybe we do "isolate ourselves from each other." Maybe we do break up. If we can actually steer this in a good direction or if you have a friend who's consistently complaining, and even with getting that tough love from you, they still don't want to shift. Well, you're probably naturally going to evolve apart anyway, would be my guess.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah. I would agree with that. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Neil Sattin: So I'm wondering for you when you are helping someone come up the curve in terms of their emotional intelligence, do you have a checklist in the back of your head that's like, "Okay, I want to make sure someone has the ability to stay present when they're actually having a conversation with someone. I want to make sure they have the ability to connect with other people and be giving. I want to make sure that they know how to make little commitments and actually follow through on them"? Are there other things along those lines that you think are really the core aspects of what I think we've been talking about this whole time, which is encouraging people to sort of show the fuck up in their lives and to not coast and to really be engaged with the people and the opportunities that are around them?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I do have a rough checklist, but I'll tell you that the way that we run things at our Advanced Human Dynamics events are usually... The first few events or first few sessions are kind of about eliciting that checklist, 'cause it does differ from person to person. So some of the things that we do, for example, would be, I might videotape an interaction, with your permission of course. But I might videotape an interaction. It's like, "Oh, okay, you are not present because you're thinking about what to say next 'cause you often you're trying to figure out how to be clever. Alright, we have to fix that because being clever is not as important as being present." Or, "Oh, okay, interesting. You're invading psychological space. That's something that's probably going to cause other people to play defense, which is going to inhibit your ability to connect with them." Or, "Wow, you got really vulnerable really fast in a way that was a little bit uncalibrated for a professional situation that's probably blowing up in your face and causing people to put walls up because they don't want to reciprocate in such a vulnerable fashion."

Jordan Harbinger: And the example here is we had a guy that was saying... Actually a better example... We had a woman that was saying something like, within the first few minutes of meeting people, "I was in an abusive relationship for 10 years, and we have a kid together." And I was like, "Whoa! Hang on, man. That's a good share for something later on. You don't know these people." So it can be problematic. You could be triggering someone else's stuff, you could be coming across as a victim, big time. It's problematic. You're going to run into people's filters and you're going to end up getting screened out. And they go, "Oh, I thought I was just being vulnerable, I thought this was helpful. I just went to some self-help seminar, where they told me to dah dah dah." I'm like, "Okay, that's just not appropriate for every situation."

Jordan Harbinger: And most people know, things like that so I'm giving you extreme examples. However, it's not uncommon for somebody to be a close-talker and invade psychological space. It's not uncommon for someone to be a little bit too touchy-feely. Maybe they even come from a different culture, where that's okay, but it doesn't make sense in a professional American context. Or maybe someone isn't showcasing any vulnerability, maybe they're doing this thing where they're trying to take up a lot of space because they read on some message board that alpha men take up space, so they're spreading out and other people are like, how rude is this guy? He's taking up three seats and I'm standing. But he's thinking, I'm alpha right now!

Jordan Harbinger: So I have these checklists that say things like, are you trying to broadcast a specific image? If so, is that image appropriate for the context? And if not, can we try to do this in another way by consciously or forming new habits? And sometimes it's a matter of going, hey, you don't have to be "alpha", you just look like a douche. And they go, oh, thank God I took a coaching class last year and I've been struggling with this forever because I feel like such a turd. And you go, yeah you shouldn't do this, it's not helping you and they go, oh, thank God. 'Cause their other coach or their other boot camp or their other whatchamacallit is some book they read, told them they have to do this or they're going to get walked on.

Jordan Harbinger: And you've probably seen guys like this and we see them on the internet, where they... The catchphrase of some of these guys is like, I don't give a fuck. And it's like, no, no, no. You give so many fucks that you don't even know who you are anymore, that's... I don't give a fuck, I'll do whatever I want. No, no, no. You're doing what this other group of guys tells you that you should want because you're giving all of the fucks. You have no fucks left.

[laughter]

Jordan Harbinger: You're being programmed by other people and it's still not working, and people still don't like you. So you're trying to reject them, but really, you've already been rejected, so it's not helping. How do you feel? And then a lot of times those guys go, "Lonely!" It's like, "Well, yeah, of course, because your only friends are weirdos on Reddit, that tell you to take up space and to not care about other people. How do you think they're working out in life?" So I try to elicit those checklists from men and women that come through the program because people really have their own individual hang-ups and they really wear... We really wear them on our sleeve as humans.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, there's something in what you're saying that where I find myself getting even kind of sad thinking about all of the, well for lack of a better word, propaganda that's out there about games to play, ways to get other people interested in you. And I feel like there's a pretty big distinction between what we've been talking about, which is really more about being in your integrity and in your authenticity, versus let's say having the checklist of, "Okay, I got a... " For the typical advice for a guy, "I gotta take up space, be the alpha guy, show them that I know how to lead, etcetera, etcetera," where they get lost in... And it's the same, especially the gendered stuff. If you want to be a woman who gets a guy, all that stuff. I think it robs people a lot of the magic that really happens when they're willing to just show up and be who they are and notice, like, "Oh, even though I think this person is really attractive, there's actually nothing there between us, so why would I want to like somehow game them into being interested in me because in the end, we don't really have anything. Whereas by being present, I get to sense, 'Oh, but there are all these other people that I really do relate to and we actually create magic when we're interacting with each other.'"

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, I think that getting help in this space is tough because it requires a certain level of self-awareness, and it requires a desire to generate even more self-awareness, which can be really scary, especially if we perceive that we might be lacking in some area. It's really uncomfortable. And then I mean this in a bad way, it's uncomfortable to go, "Oh my gosh, I know there are problems and I'm going to ask someone else, possibly pay them to toss... Just rip the blanket off and look at what's underneath," and that's really scary. So I think that we, especially guys, but men and women both, have a problem moving forward in this area. So I just want to close with the idea that this is in many ways about momentum. Once you find a weakness and you're able to correct or fix or start working on it, in my opinion, Neil, it really becomes almost addictive because you go, "Holy crap, that wasn't as hard as I thought. It didn't feel terrible and it feels really good to have this under wraps, and now I can finally attack all these other little things." And it becomes really fun to become who you need to be. So I don't want to scare people away from it because I honestly really do feel like it becomes healthy and it becomes addictive in a good way to work on yourself. It's just scary beforehand. Almost exclusively, it's just scary beforehand.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, those are great. Great piece of advice there. Jordan, I really appreciate your time today and I'm wondering, do you have a moment for one more question?

Jordan Harbinger: I do.

Neil Sattin: Great. Before we got on the call, we were talking about some of the upheaval that's been going on in your life, for lack of a better word. And if it's okay for me to ask you a personal question, I'm curious to know, 'cause you're married and in a time that's created... Where there's been a lot of stress, and those can sometimes be when we're at our worst in our partnerships, I'm wondering what's been helpful for you and your wife to stay connected with everything changing around you?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, you know what's funny? I work with my wife, so this might be unique to our situation, but all of this turmoil of relaunching the Jordan Harbinger show and Advanced Team and Dynamics and everything, all of a sudden after leaving The Art of Charm suddenly has actually brought us closer together. And I think one of the keys is being really aware when I'm negative because I tend to, when I get negative, get a little bit bummed out and/or take it out on whoever's near me. That's a very human thing to do. But I have to be really careful about that because I'm not doing this in the office during a stressful time, and then coming home and keeping it separate from the family. I work with my wife, so I gotta be really careful not to be like, I'm going to explode about this thing and then go, oh, I feel better, but meanwhile, everybody else is like, I don't. So, I've had to become really conscious of that. I've had to do, I guess you would say, I've really actually almost ironically had to focus on self care because when I'm going to the gym, when I'm getting sun, when I'm walking outside, when I'm connecting with friends, I don't have to just rely on my wife for emotional support, which can be exhausting for her and I'm actually able to support her too. Does that make sense?

Neil Sattin: Yeah, absolutely.

Jordan Harbinger: So a lot of people go, oh, I gotta make sure I'm taking care of my family and I agree that you do. But one of the best ways to do that is making sure that you have the capacity for it and the way that you do that is through self-care. And a lot of people, when they hit hard times myself included, we don't do self-care, we stop going to the gym, we start eating a bunch of crap, we drink more or whatever it is because it's an emergency. We're in emergency mode. Fight or flight, anxiety, not sleeping. That stuff diminishes your capacity to take care of those around you as well as yourself. And that's when things start to break down. It's like, "I'm doing everything I can for this other person." It's like, "Well, you are, but what you can do is 10% of what you should be doing because you're a freaking mess."

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah.

Jordan Harbinger: So that's what I've been working on.

Neil Sattin: Makes perfect sense. And I think that's another place where it can be so challenging for people to be willing to prioritize that and to maybe do it in a way so that the people around them understand what's going on. If you were completely absent and your wife was like, "Where are you going? Why aren't you here?" Then that might be a different story. "Oh, I was just taking care of myself. I went to the movies, got myself a smoothie. Did you want one too?" You know, might be different.

Jordan Harbinger: It's been really fun man. I appreciate the opportunity.

Neil Sattin: Yeah Jordan, thank you so much for being here with us on Relationship Alive and for me, it's been a bit of a stretch having you here only because typically I've got people on like John Gottman and Sue Johnson who are writing books about relationships, and that's what frames our conversations. And so I appreciate your willingness to get on and just go for it and see what we could come up with your vast expertise in those relational dynamics and to see what we could make practical for our listeners here. So thank you so much.

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, thank you, man. I appreciate the opportunity.

Neil Sattin: And if you are interested in finding out more about Jordan Harbinger, you can visit jordanharbinger.com. You can check out the Jordan Harbinger show, and his company, Advanced Human Dynamics, is developing online courses and events that you can visit, right?

Jordan Harbinger: Yeah, we actually have a course up now. It's free, and it's about networking and relationship development. It's very systematic. It's all about not feeling like a smarmy business card slinger, and generating professional and personal relationships in a way that's scalable, fun doesn't take three hours a day, doesn't involve you being a fake weirdo on the internet, etcetera. And that's all at Advanced Human Dynamics. You just click level one in the corner, and I'll teach you all the secrets.

Neil Sattin: Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Jordan. Great to have you here.

Jordan Harbinger: Thanks, Neil.

Have you ever found yourself making assumptions about how your partner will take care of you or show up for you? Do you assume they’ll do certain things that make your life easier even though they haven’t actually agreed to do that? Have you ever felt resentful toward your partner for not following through on what you assumed they would do for you? If so, you’re not alone! In today’s episode, we’ll discover how these assumptions can lead to resentment and learned helplessness. We’re going to dive into some specific actions you can take to prevent this from happening in your relationship.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

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Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are – thank you!), this week’s episode is being sponsored by two amazing companies with special offers for you.

GreenChef.us is a USDA certified organic company, with a wide variety of meal plans to make having healthier food easy and convenient for you. And they’re offering you $50 off your first box to give them a try! Just visit GreenChef.us/alive and use the coupon code “ALIVE” at checkout for $50 off, and enjoy the delicious recipes and fresh ingredients that GreenChef sends your way.

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Transcript:

Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive - this is your host Neil Sattin. When you make assumptions about how you and your partner will show up for each other in your relationship, that can ultimately erode the goodwill and generosity in your relationship. And, on top of that, it can undermine your own ability to feel safe in your own skin. So this week we’re going to talk about how to make the implicit explicit - so that the way that you and your partner collaborate in each other’s lives actually adds energy to both of you - instead of ultimately stealing your fire. It’s an important topic so get ready to dive deep.

But first - are you finding Relationship Alive to be helpful in your life? If so, please consider a donation to help support what we do. To choose something that feels right for you, please visit neilsattin.com/support or text the word SUPPORT to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. And this week, I want to offer sincere gratitude to Danielle, Denise, Kelee, Kent, Abe, Sarah, Renee, Micheila, Ruthana - thank you all so much for your generous contributions to help us keep the lights on here at Relationship Alive headquarters.

This episode is also brought to you by Green Chef. For 50 dollars off your first box of Green Chef go to GreenChef.us/alive. And I’ll tell you a little bit more about them later in the show.

So let’s move on. When you first get into a relationship, it can feel almost magical the way that everything lines up. Those falling in love feelings often also lead to incredible generosity - we’re inspired to show up for our beloveds for so many reasons, not the least of which is how good it feels to offer them something and see the happiness that comes as a result. Back in episode 102, Jeff Zeig talked about the phenomenon called “TOPIAH” - taking pleasure in another’s happiness - which is central to that falling in love state of being.

And when this is happening it can feel like you have been brought together in order to complement each other, make each other’s lives easier, etc. What’s the point of being in a relationship, if not to share joy, and make each other’s life easier? Otherwise, why would we tolerate all the challenges of relationship?

So I’m not going to get down on the way that happens. On the other hand, what tends to happen is that the overwhelming generosity that can mark the beginning of a relationship leads to ways that we take each other for granted. And this is a huge double-edged sword that can slice right into your happiness together and take you down if you’re not careful. Let me explain…

Why is it a double-edged sword? Because on the one side of the blade are the assumptions that we start making about our partner. Assumptions about how they will take care of us, show up for us, make life happier and easier, etc. The problem isn’t that they’re doing all those things - the problem is the assumption, the expectations, that can then lead to resentment. In the ways where you once showed up willingly, out of generosity, you might now find yourself feeling taken for granted and wondering if your partner gets how much you do for them.

Don’t worry, in a moment I’m going to give you a way to steer clear of that problem - but you might remember that I said it was a double-edged sword - so what’s the other problem?

The other side of the blade is the ways in which we learn to rely on our partner and how that can sometimes get in the way of our realizing our own capabilities. It’s a form of learned helplessness - not the kind that’s linked to trauma or recurring pain - though of course, that can *also* happen in relationships - I’m talking about how we come to rely on our partners and then when they for some reason can’t show up in the way that we’ve come to rely on them, it actually triggers our fear - instead of inspiring us to be capable.

Here’s an example. These are the kinds of things that you come to see more clearly when you have to be apart from your partner for any length of time - as you start to realize all the ways that they contribute to your life, or the household, or your wellbeing. Like imagine that your partner leaves for a week, and you suddenly realize that there are no groceries in the fridge, or gas in the car, or dinner on the table when you get home from work. Sometimes when that happens, instead of diving into our own capability - like going to the grocery store, gassing up the car, and cooking a nice dinner - and doing all of those things OURSELVES - we go into a fear response from NOT being taken care of in the ways that we’re used to. So there we are in our trigger - not only not getting our needs met, but feeling fight/flight/freeze in reaction to a partner who simply went out of town on business (or for whatever reason).

And that can ALSO lead to resentment. We can resent our partners for leaving us to fend for ourselves, or we can resent them for making us confront our own little ways of being helpless, or we can actually resent ourselves for having given so much power away to our partners in the first place. It’s a habit that we’ve acquired - letting our partner do things for us, and coming to rely on them for that.

Quick side note on that - often when you move through the triggered place, you can find an enormous blessing in HAVING that space, so that you can feel what you’re truly capable of.

And what’s ironic about this situation? It’s usually true for BOTH partners. In other words, it’s rare that one of you is doing all the assuming, and the other one of you is doing all the work. The reality is usually that both of you give in your own ways, and both of you can feel taken for granted. This is a dynamic that we actually talked about back in our episode with Betty Martin, in episode 162, talking about the Wheel of Consent. Now in that episode, we talked about how it impacts the way that we touch or receive touch from our partners, but the underlying premise is the same as you come to understand the dynamics of giving and receiving.

But I’ll let you listen to that episode to get that part of what I’m talking about. What we’re focused on here is the danger that making assumptions brings to your relationship. And I’m going to show you what to do about it. We’ll solve all your assumption problems with a simple exercise or two - in just a moment.

However, this is the time in the show when I get to tell you about this week’s sponsors. And they both have cool deals for you, so you can try them out - at a discount - and experience what they’re cooking up for you.

And this week’s first sponsor, Green Chef - is literally cooking things up for you. Their food is amazing. Chloe and I sampled their Paleo menu, and not only had 3 incredibly yummy, sustainably sourced meals, but we had a great time cooking together. It was awesome to have most of the prep work done for us, so all we had to do was follow the step-by-step instructions and voila - we had high-quality meals that everyone - including the kids - enjoyed. I think my favorite was the Montreal-spiced Shaved Steak Hash, while Chloe’s was the Chicken Tinga - which had this amazing Cashew Crema sauce that totally brought out the tangy taste of the lime juice we had sprinkled over the top. It’s an exceptional way to add new ideas to your weekly menu.

So - important to note - Green Chef is a USDA certified organic company, and each week they send you a wide variety of organic ingredients and imaginative, tasty recipes - handpicked and delivered right to your door. Meal plans include Paleo, Vegan, Vegetarian, Keto, Gluten-Free, Omnivore, and Carnivore. Their expert chefs design recipes with gourmet flavor, and the premade sauces, dressings, and spice mixtures help you get more flavor with less time spent in preparation.

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Thanks, Green Chef for helping support Thriving, Healthy, Sustainable Relationships.

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And Babbel, Grazie Mille for supporting Relationship Alive.

Now let’s get back into the conversation about how to keep your assumptions from eroding your relationship.

As I hinted at the very beginning, the antidote to the toxic effect of assuming on your relationship is to make the implicit explicit - in other words, to get really clear on the dynamic that’s happening in your relationship and to turn assumptions into agreements.

You may have heard me talk about agreements before on Relationship Alive, as they are a key part of creating the container of your relationship. So far we’ve talked about them in broad strokes, though - they represent the things that you and your partner agree NOT to do - you know, things like spending large sums of money without talking to each other about it first, or your agreements around monogamy - these are important things to be really clear about with your partner. We’ve also talked about the things that you agree TO do - things like commitment to supporting each other’s growth or sharing appreciations with each other each night. These are just a couple of small examples.

The problem with assumptions is that they represent agreements that you haven’t actually agreed to. They often have the same degree of expectations that come with an actual agreement - but the problem is that you and your partner don’t actually know exactly that the agreement exists. Let’s take something simple as an example.

Let’s say that every night your beloved gets home from work 30 minutes earlier than you do. And every night they get home, take the dog out, and then start cooking dinner. So you walk in the door, and the dog comes over to you, tail wagging, and you fall on the floor to give your dog a tummy rub, while your partner is there, standing over the stove, whipping up something tasty. Only instead of being really happy to see you, for some reason your partner is standing there looking really serious as they saute the onions, and you already have that sinking feeling that there’s something going on that you’re going to have to talk about later.

Now, let’s just state the obvious - you should always greet your partner before you start rubbing the dog’s belly. If your dog is getting more affection and attention than your partner is, then you’re in trouble. Trust me. In fact, maybe I’ll devote an episode to just that. Moving right along…

And, now let’s even take this situation a step further. Let’s imagine that it’s this way night after night. Except for one night you get home, and your partner is in the living room, kicking back and reading a book. And as you walk in the door and the dog rushes over to greet you they say “great, can you take the dog out?” - and then you realize that they have already cooked and eaten an early dinner - without you. In that moment are you feeling, maybe, just a little bit...resentful?

I’m pretty sure that the answer here would be “yes”. And why is that? Why was your partner stewing over something when you came home to their cooking, and why are you now stewing because it’s suddenly on you to take the dog out and figure out dinner?

In this hypothetical situation that I know none of you has experienced...did you and your partner ever create an agreement about who was going to take the dog out and start dinner?

Now, of course, it’s possible that you might have a stale agreement, something that you made long ago and which no longer is working for one, or both, of you. It’s worth revisiting your agreements every so often. But in order to do that, you’re going to have to know what your agreements are.

So, let’s get there - together. As you may be guessing right now, you are going to actually have to communicate with your partner to figure this out. But before you take that step, let’s get more clear on what your assumptions are.

The best way to do this is to keep track. Have you ever used a time-tracking app to figure out how you spend your time when you’re on your computer? That can be really useful data to have, so that after a week or two you get to see when and how you’re the most productive (and, correspondingly, when and how you waste time). It’s useful - and occasionally scary.

So for the next week what I’d like you to do is to keep track of all of the ways in which you are relying on your partner. The challenge is going to be remembering to do this throughout your day...one way to approach it is to have a little pocket notebook that you carry with you so that you can note things down as they happen. Or you can, of course, keep track in your smartphone. The key here is, first, to remember to be paying attention throughout your day - and then to actually write it down or note it.

It’s tempting here to think “OK, I’m going to just notice it as it happens” - and to take the shortcut and NOT write anything down, or actually keep track of anything. Unless you have a superhuman memory, do NOT do this. Write it down, or record it somehow. This is important, first so that you don’t miss anything! And second, so that as you review your notes at the end of the week, you’ll have a sense of just how vast the number of assumptions is.

Now there may be some things that jump out at you right away as you hear me talking about this. You can go ahead and write those things down. Maybe it’s the “who makes the meals” scenario? Maybe it’s the who does the laundry or the grocery shopping? Maybe it’s that you trust your partner to text you back within 5 minutes when you’ve texted them, and if any more time goes by you start to get anxious?

The big question here is: what are all the ways that I rely on my partner? And what are all the ways that they’re relying on me?

And...after a week of that goes by...you get to look over your findings. There will probably be some things on your list that you already knew about - and hopefully, there will also be some surprises on your list. See if you can get a sense of what led to a particular thing becoming just a way of being - how did it work its way onto your assumption list? That’s helpful to know - at a 1000 foot view you can often see the ways that these patterns start - which is a great way of seeing your own part in things.

Now the next step is going to be to communicate with your partner about what you discovered. I’ll give you a framework for that in a moment. As you might expect, the WAY that you talk about it will have a huge impact. For some important pointers, make sure that you check out my free Relationship Communication guide. If you’ve already downloaded it, then you might want to revisit it just for a reminder - and if you haven’t gotten it yet, you can grab it at neilsattin.com/relate - or by texting the word RELATE to the number 33444 and following the instructions.

So let’s talk about how to approach this conversation with your partner. Maybe you’re lucky and you’re already listening to Relationship Alive together - and doing this research together. So if that’s the case then you simply want to schedule a time to talk about what you discovered. If you’re doing this on your own, then the first step is to ask your beloved if there’s a time when you can sit down to talk about some important things you’ve been noticing. Don’t just spring this on your partner!

And even if you have a long list of ways that your partner is making assumptions about you, I wouldn’t bring that up just yet - if your partner asks you what you want to talk about, just say that you’ve been noticing some ways that you take them for granted, and you were hoping to be able to sit down, chat with them, and get some clarity about it. Maybe even express your gratitude - you know, that kind of thing.

When the appointed time arrives, then, yes - you want to set the stage by talking about how you have noticed all these ways in which you’ve been taking your partner for granted or making assumptions that things are a certain way. If you have lots of examples to choose from in your observations, you might choose the one that seems the least triggering to your partner - in other words, start with something easy. Not necessarily a hot-button issue right away.

Then you might say something like…”I’ve been operating as if this is an agreement that we have made, to do things this way. But we never really did, did we? Or maybe we did, but that was a long time ago, and I’m not sure that it necessarily makes sense anymore.”

Each step along the way you want to check in with your partner to see if what you’re saying is making sense to them. Do they get it, what you’re saying? Do they agree? Can they lend any insight into what you’ve already noticed?

If you’re starting with ways that you’ve been taking them for granted, then it will be easier to inspire their collaboration in the conversation. One thing to pay attention to here is your own level of activation, of being triggered. If your partner is TOO eager to point out the assumptions that you’ve been making, then you could find yourself feeling like you’re being attacked. Do your best here to find your balance on your own, to take responsibility for your own emotional state. As much as possible you want to keep operating from your prefrontal cortex - in other words, the non-triggered part of your brain that knows how to problem-solve, stay curious, and be creative.

So - what’s the ultimate goal here? The goal is to bring up the assumptions that you’ve been making  and then to ask your partner if there’s an agreement that you can actually make, together, about each particular thing. It’s as simple as that. Some possible ways to frame that include: “In this situation, would you like to ”. Or “What would make that ok for you? What would make that feel like something you actually want to do?” or “how can I help you so that you’re not doing it on your own?” or “What would be a meaningful way - to you - that I could show my appreciation?” Or “Is there some way that I could contribute that would make a difference to you?”

You may also discover that some of these ways that you’ve come to rely on your partner actually are obstacles to your own feeling fulfilled, actualized, and capable in your own life. So rather than your go-to being trying to get your partner’s buy-in to just keep doing things that way - but with an agreement - I invite you to first consider how you can show up to at least be an equal partner in what’s happening. Or perhaps you want to take full responsibility for making this thing happen for you - rather than relying on your partner at all. This could be about your reclaiming that part of yourself, or it could also be about ways to give even more to the relationship.

I leave it to you to feel through the situation for what feels best to you and your partner. But definitely, spend time entertaining the different possibilities - instead of immediately rushing to the first solution that jumps out at you.

Bear in mind too that even if your partner says that they are more than happy to do whatever it is that they’ve been doing, by at least getting it out in the open you can ensure that you’re both completely in integrity about it. And you can also discuss how to safely bring it up if the agreement STOPS being ok with either one of you. Having a way to bring the topic up without anyone getting triggered or resentful - in other words, revisiting your agreements on a regular basis and having that be just built into the structure of your relationship will help you keep things healthy and minimize resentment in the time ahead of you.

Oh, by the way, in case you were wondering about how to address all those ways that you feel like your partner might be taking you for granted...again remember that it’s best to start with an offering - which in this case is you taking responsibility for all the assumptions that you’ve been making.

Next you might ask your partner something like this: “Would you be willing to talk about some other places where I think we could use a more explicit agreement between us?” And if the answer is “Yes” - then you’re on the right track. Instead of framing this part of the conversation as ways that you’re being “taken for granted” - you might instead say something like “Here is a place where our agreement isn’t quite clear…” And rather than focusing on the assumption - in other words, rather than saying something like “it seems like you assume I’m going to make dinner every night” you might say something like “I find that most nights I’m making dinner. And I’m doing it by myself. And while I do enjoy making dinner, what I really miss is the opportunity for us to work together to make choices about what we’re going to eat. So I find that lately I’ve been getting lonely and maybe even a little sad, instead of feeling inspired to cook for both of us. Would you be willing to talk about ways that we could change that up a bit?”

You might be surprised to find that your partner will actually show up with some creative solutions - especially if they’re not being blamed.

OK - I think that’s enough to get you going in the right direction. If you’re on Facebook and haven’t joined us in the Relationship Alive Community yet, please come find us there. You can get support from the more than 2300 Relationship Alive listeners who are creating a safe space to talk about relationships. And in the meantime, if you know someone who could benefit from hearing this episode, please feel free to send the link along - it’s neilsattin.com/167. I look forward to being with you next week - take care until then!

 

 

Have you ever felt compelled to jump into a new relationship a little too quickly? Is it possible that you’re actually addicted to love and relationships? How would you know? This week, our guest is Sherry Gaba, best-selling author of The Marriage and Relationship Junkie and The Law of Sobriety: Attracting Positive Energy for a Powerful Recovery. Sherry is a Psychotherapist, Life Coach, and Certified Recovery Coach specializing in individual, couples, family, and group psychotherapy - and she is also the editor of Recovery Today magazine. In this episode, you’ll learn what it means to be addicted to love and relationships and where it comes from. We’ll also dive into how you can tell if you’re addicted to love and relationships and what you can do to start on your path toward healthier relationships and connection.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

Sponsors:

Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode is being sponsored by two amazing companies with special offers for you.

First are the folks at TakeCareOf.com. Through a unique online quiz, they help you figure out exactly what vitamins and herbal supplements you need to achieve your optimal health. They use high-quality ingredients and can save you as much as 20% over comparable store-bought brands. On top of all that, they are offering you 25% OFF your first month if you visit takecareof.com and use the coupon code “ALIVE” at checkout.

RxBar.com makes a whole food protein bar that’s super-tasty – Chloe and I almost always have these with us to help us stay nourished on the go. They’re healthy, easy to digest, and have simple ingredients with no added sugar – plus they’re gluten/dairy/soy-free. You can get 25% OFF your first order by visiting RxBar.com/alive and using the coupon code “ALIVE” at checkout. Valid in the US only.

 

Resources:

Visit the website for Sherry Gaba’s book, The Marriage and Relationship Junkie, to learn more about how to break the cycle of marriage and relationship addiction and live fabulously on your own or with a partner.

Visit Sherry Gaba’s main website

FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - perfect help for handling conflict and shifting the codependent patterns in your relationship

Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Your Relationship (ALSO FREE)

www.neilsattin.com/gaba Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Sherry Gaba.

Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out

 

Transcript:

Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. We're here to talk about relationships and yet what brings us into a relationship? Why are we there in the first place? So many of us enter relationships for awesome reasons, sometimes it's less than awesome reasons, and sometimes it's a combination of the two. You feel some magnetic spark with a person, but at the same time, maybe they support you in ways that aren't necessarily healthy for you, or you get trapped in some dynamic that doesn't really make for the best relationship possible. And then you might feel like, "Oh, okay, this relationship ended," and you're ready to go into another relationship, maybe even a little too quickly. And it wouldn't be that uncommon for you to wonder, "Is there something about this? Am I actually addicted to being in relationships? Am I addicted to love? Is there something... What is it that's compelling me to do this?" And I think it's interesting to tease apart what it is that might compel us in an unhealthy way, to enter into a relationship with others, and what's healthy about it? 'Cause when we're talking about addiction, there are positive addictions, as well as negative addictions. So how do you find the balance, and how do you figure out you where you land in terms of your approach to the relationship?

Neil Sattin: So we're going to tackle this question about whether or not you might possibly be addicted to love and relationship, how to know and what to do about it. And in order to have that conversation, I have with me today, yet another esteemed guest, her name is Sherry Gaba, and she's a therapist who is also the author of "The Marriage and Relationship Junkie." A book that is available on Amazon, and talks all about this question of how do you find your own path to health in terms of how you relate to others? And of course, that's a conversation we're having all the time here on Relationship Alive because hey, I'm just... I recognize that just like you, there's work to be done. And so, we're going to dive deep into this question around addiction and obsession around love and see if we can come out the other side with some answers. As always, we will have a detailed transcript of today's episode and to download that, all you have to do is visit neilsattin.com/gaba, and you spell that, G-A-B-A, as in Sherry Gaba, our guest for today. Or you can always text the word, "passion" to the number 33444, follow the instructions and I will send you a link where you can download the transcript for this episode. Alright, I think that's all I have to cover today at this moment. Let's dive in. Sherry Gaba, so great to have you here with us on Relationship Alive.

Sherry Gaba: What a fantastic introduction, thank you, Neil, that was amazing, and I love what you're doing in the world and loving just getting to know you, I love your energy and I'm just grateful to have this platform today to talk about this really important subject.

Neil Sattin: Great, well we're off to a good start then.

Sherry Gaba: Yeah.

Neil Sattin: So it is a complicated question whether we're drawn into relating with another person for the right reasons or the wrong reasons. Maybe you can help us start to tease that apart, how do we know if the reason that we're seeking out someone else is something that ultimately is going to support our health and growth, and thriving in the world?

Sherry Gaba: Well, let's look at addiction in general, if you look at the broader sense of addiction, and love addiction and relationship romance addiction is our subject today. If you look at the broader definition of addiction is when your life is out of control and it's becoming unmanageable and underneath that, you're making choices based on emptiness a feeling of lack, a feeling of not wanting to be alone, that would be a love addiction, feeling like the world is just a really scary place almost terror that, "If I'm not in a relationship, if I'm not connected or hooked up to somebody, then I'm going to "dies," literally. And so, love addiction is really under the umbrella of addiction.

Sherry Gaba: It's a process addiction, it's a lifestyle addiction, so think about binge eating, or sex addiction, or being addicted to exercise or internet addiction or gaming, or shopping or spending, those are all lifestyle addictions. So, you're becoming addicted to a mood-altering activity, in other words, your brain really lights up when you're hooking up with whatever it is that you're needing to hook up with, whether it's the food or the love, or the sex or whatever your addiction is. So the relationship for a love addict is the only person's identity. And then if a breakup occurs, the addictive lover is longing for the attachment and the pleasurable feelings of that lost relationship. So just like the drug addict may be withdrawing from his or her drug needing that "fix," the love addict is needing that fix of attachment.

Sherry Gaba: And underneath all of us, all of us as human beings we all want to attach, we all want to bond, we all want to connect. But when it becomes unhealthy, and we start making really bad choices around that, then we're stepping into love addiction. For instance, you step into a relationship 'cause you're afraid of being alone like I mentioned earlier, or you're afraid of the unknown, or you get into a relationship where you're trying to change them or fix them and not accepting them for who they are. Needing someone to make you feel whole, because like I mentioned earlier, you feel empty if you're not in a relationship. Looking for others for affirmation and self-worth and for validation rather than already having that within yourself. Being terrorized of abandonment, having those withdrawal symptoms that I mentioned earlier that if a relationship ends, you are in complete withdrawal. And then really giving up who we are out of the fear that we might lose someone or someone may not approve of us. So, if any of those things sound familiar, you may be dealing with love addiction.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, and I'm reminded of when Helen Fisher was on the show, she has this viewpoint that in some respects, all love is addiction and that's why when we break up, we go through symptoms and pain that's very similar to what any addict would go through when they are in withdrawal from their partner. But I like the distinction that you're making around how... And this is I think, why love can be a positive or a negative addiction, because you could be addicted to love with someone who's really good for you, and where you actually really support each other and there's a lot that's beneficial going on, or you can be addicted to love with someone where you're just fueling the dopamine rush.

Sherry Gaba: Yeah.

Neil Sattin: And I think that is... Go ahead.

Sherry Gaba: Well, if you're feeling the dopamine rush, it probably isn't you're addicted to a healthy relationship. Because yes, in the beginning, there's that fantasy, there's that attachment, there's that goo-goo ga-ga feeling. Sure, that can happen, but healthy relationships really move into a more mature growing state of being. I'm not saying you can't have that goo-goo ga-ga come up at times, but I think if you're constantly in that state, I think then it becomes more obsessive and then it becomes more unhealthy. I can't speak to all relationships, but I think healthier relationships change, they morph into other things, they morph into healthier love, they morph into other things like respect and nurturing, and it isn't just fueled by that, "Oh my god," goo-goo ga-ga feeling, you know what I'm saying?

Neil Sattin: Yeah, if we look at the addiction cycle, and we had Alex Katehakis on the show to talk a little bit also about sex addiction. That what we're really doing, the reason we show up predictive behaviors, and you mentioned this a moment ago, is to help us with our own feelings of dysregulation and discomfort, we turn to the thing that gives us that pleasurable sensation for comfort. And I think you're right, all relationships are going to do that at first to some extent. And as I was preparing for our conversations today, it just occurred to me like, Oh, right, so if you're in a relationship, like most relationships where after a certain period of time, the dopamine energy starts to fade a little bit, and you haven't necessarily figured out how to build health into your relationship, and those healthy bonding behaviors foster lots of oxytocin which is another, a pair bonding hormone, then you're going to be missing the effects of the dopamine, not because there's something wrong with your partnership necessarily, but because you tune back into what's wrong with you, and those feelings of discomfort. And so then you have to chase the dopamine whether it's escalating the drama or ditching someone for someone new so that you can get that because you're not equipped at that moment to actually deal with your own dysregulation and discomfort.

Sherry Gaba: Right. Well, you're addicted to the high, so to speak. You're addicted to the romance, you're addicted to the newness factor. I am a love addict, the best time for me is that first falling in love, that's the part where I'm just... That's where I'm most comfortable, that's my go-to. The problem with that is, you're picking from a place of need versus a place of healthful being. In other words, you're picking from a place of emptiness, you're picking a place of, "This person's going to fill up this need that I have, that I don't feel whole already, that I need somebody else to fill me up to feel good about myself." And hopefully, we can lead into a conversation about early trauma because that is a huge piece to this subject.

Sherry Gaba: And often I'll share my own story because I think people underestimate what early trauma does and why that is a huge piece in the love addict behavior or the need for that high, that initial high. We're always chasing that early high, we often say with addicts, they're chasing that first high, that first crack experience or that first alcoholic experience, whatever, heroin experience. Well, the love addict is chasing that first high of falling in love, that's where everything... That is it, this is utopia, this is where it all is, and unfortunately, it isn't sustaining and when it does change, hopefully, it'll change into something healthy, but for the love addict, it generally does not turn into that something healthy. And usually, what they... The love addict picks people that aren't healthy for them. That's another piece to this, is that love addicts tend to be attracted to love avoidance, they're attracted to people that are unavailable, they might be attracted to people that are abusive and they don't care because they want that high no matter what, and they're picking what they know rather than what's good for them.

Neil Sattin: Right. Right, so if you're in a relationship, what are some of the signs that you might see happening in your relationship if you've veered into addictive territory?

Sherry Gaba: Well, I think if you're putting up with abuse, of course, you may be with a narcissist. I think we talked about this a little bit earlier, but over-adapting to what others want, losing yourself in the process, having no boundaries, always saying yes when really, “no” is not even in your vocabulary. This terror, this fear of letting go, fear of the unknown, so you stay because it's better than what might be out there. At least you know what you're getting here, even if it's unhealthy. You're always trying to fix and change your partner. That person is what makes you feel whole and complete, you're absolutely empty, you're in the ethers of emptiness without that person or in relationship, and then that person is all that you are in terms of, you're seeking their affirmation, their validation, their acknowledgment, all your self-worth is based on being with that person. You're petrified of abandonment. You might have some of those withdrawal symptoms when they're not around, you only are comfortable when they're in your space, but if they're off to work or off with other... Doing other things, you feel completely lost, and you give up who you are out of fear that they may not want you. You give up who you are, you lose parts of yourself to be with this person.

Neil Sattin: Got it. So I'm feeling a pretty... I'm doing the diagnosis here on myself even and thinking about how even relationships in the past that have started out healthy, they can veer into this territory if you're not careful.

Sherry Gaba: Sure. And then we're talking maybe more about a codependent relationship. And I hate throwing out words like codependent or even a love addiction word, because people... It becomes very cliche, because what you said earlier in the call, and I really picked up on that was that some of these things you have with your relationship but they're healthy. And in other words, you love that person, you respect that person, and sure, that person on some level maybe completes you on some level. But the question is if that relationship wasn't there would you be okay? Sure, you might be sad and you would grieve, and you would miss that person terribly, but would you be completely lost? I think of my own mother, my father passed away and they had a 60-year romance. And when my father died, and again, this is part of grief as well, but it was a little more pathological than that. My mother picked up the first man that looked at her. And he's a very bad man. She picked somebody that really is a predator per se, and he knew exactly what he was doing. And she's in a relationship with... In a very unhealthy relationship with someone that's completely taking advantage of her, because she is petrified of being without somebody. She just can't even function. And so that's when we're really getting into territory that's dangerous.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Sherry Gaba: Because you're actually being taken advantage of. And that's a whole other conversation, there is a whole world out there, there's... Just in LA alone, there are probably 10,000 predators out there picking women that just will believe anything that they hear, just so they can couple up and partner up and bond with somebody.

Neil Sattin: Let's...

Sherry Gaba: I use that example because you never know, you could have a listener right now, a call that's in a situation like that.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, I'm glad that you brought it up. And yeah, what it makes me curious about, I picked up on the sense of not being okay if you were to be alone. And because I think that it's so important to have that sense of okay-ness, that brings with it so much freedom to really see your relationship clearly, to see your part in the relationship clearly. So if we were to take a listener on a step or two down the road, toward... Like, if they're looking at themselves right now and saying, "Wow, yeah, I'm not sure I would be okay if this fell apart." There may be some practical considerations to that, maybe their livelihood is dependent on their partner or something like that. But I think you're talking about, even more, the existential sense of like, "No, my life might fall apart if I weren't with this person or... " How does someone go about starting to restore that sense of inner safety, so that they can bring that to the relationship?

Sherry Gaba: Well, maybe that... This is a good time to talk about early trauma because if we grew up in a situation where our parents were really unavailable, maybe they were addicts, alcoholics themselves, maybe there was a divorce, maybe were raised by a single parent and they were busy working and you felt invisible because your needs weren't being met, maybe you were in a situation where you were almost parenting your parent. Maybe you were abandoned by a parent. There's this panic that sets in. And then what happens is, you're looking for anything outside yourself to fill up that pain and that panic, and you'll cling to anything and anyone. You're craving for something else to make you feel whole. So the question is, if you're already in a relationship, what draws you to this person? Is it because this person adds to your life? You feel like it brings joy to the joy that you already are as a person? Did you already feel whole as a person? Were you ever successfully single and just loving life as a single person? Or your whole basis was, "I need to attach to someone because without attaching to someone, I am lost. I'm like that child that didn't have a parent that was available to me."

Sherry Gaba: Do you feel like you're not enough without that relationship? Do you feel enough anyway? Yeah, do you feel good enough even without a relationship? Are you unconsciously attempting to satisfy that developmental hungry, so that hungry ghost that people talk about, Buddhists talk about, are you trying to satisfy that? Or does that person, again, add to your sense of being, and sense of self, or are they just completing what you are not?

Sherry Gaba: And are you always looking outside yourself to fix yourself, your fear, your pain, your discomfort? Or do you have that safety within yourself to... That's a great word, are you able to self-regulate yourself? Are you able to be alone at any time? I don't know if that answers your question, Neil, I think it's so great that we're diving into the fact that if you're already in a relationship, do you have these things? And I don't want people to freak out and think, "Oh my God, I'm a love addict, and I'm in a relationship, I better get out because I gotta find myself." No, no, no, no, it's not about that. But I think there are ways to start creating... And see, do you have early trauma? Were you abandoned? And then if you were, how to start healing from that. For me, my trauma was so early, it's unbelievable, I was in an incubator for two and a half months. So I started out in the world unregulated. I started out not having that early bonding with my mother, she didn't hold me for two and a half months, and then even when I came home, she went to work right away, so she was unavailable. And I didn't get what I needed, and so I was always looking for something outside of me to fill me up. I was always looking for that "breast," so to speak.

Sherry Gaba: That's kind of a metaphor, but it's... I was always looking for something else to completely... 'Cause I felt complete, I didn't get that mirroring, I didn't get that bonding, I didn't get that security, that safety. So those are some things to think about, what was your early childhood like? Did you go through any of the things that I mentioned earlier? And if you did, how do you work on those issues? For me, I got into therapy with someone that does what's called somatic experiencing, and now, I'm a practitioner of that, and it's getting back into your body and being able to be okay within yourself, instead of always running away from yourself. Always thinking something else can complete you when everything you have is right there within you.

Neil Sattin: Great, and yes, we've had Peter Levine on the show actually, to talk about somatic experiencing.

Sherry Gaba: Oh fast, you've had some amazing guest.

Neil Sattin: Fortunately yeah, I'm so happy that he was willing to chat and I do believe that that, in particular, is such a powerful modality for healing early traumas. And what I love about it because it's based on your sensation, you don't necessarily have to know what it was. It goes by this theory that the trauma is just stored in there and so you're giving your body a chance to process things that are stuck, that it should have processed through whenever the trauma, and it could be a "big-T" trauma or "little-T" trauma, whenever that occurred. So there's nothing abnormal about you or anyone with having something that might be stuck within you that just needs to be healed.

Sherry Gaba: I love that. I want people to know that there is nothing wrong with you. There might have been something that happened to you as you said, a big trauma, or little trauma, and let's discharge that energy that's been built up so that we can get unblocked so that we can bring in health and wholeness. So that you can feel complete just within yourself, so you don't have to seek outside yourself to feel good. The truth of the matter is just being on this call right now, is the first step because people are going to become aware like, "Oh, this is interesting, let's get curious about this." And then from there, make a decision to change, learning to stop looking for external solutions for problems that can be solved within.

Sherry Gaba: Really explore their personal fears, and really get out of the denial, that's a huge piece with addiction. Addiction is the only disease that says, "I don't have a problem." So really, open yourself up to, "Yeah, there might be something here." And really examine those early suppressed traumas that might have occurred early on in life that we just talked about. Maybe go ahead and listen to your Peter Levine interview, so you can understand trauma a little bit better. Start self-parenting yourself. Really look... I sometimes suggest to people, "Find a photo of you when you were a child and stick that photo right next to your bed, and just start loving that inner child that maybe didn't get what they needed." Become really a loving, forgiving and compassionate person to yourself.

Sherry Gaba: You didn't just wake up one day and go, "Oh, I want to be a love addict. I want to feel pain all the time. I want to feel like I have to be... " You have to completely or I feel like nothing. No, that isn't what you... You didn't cause anything, it's just from your experiences in your history, this is what happened, that energy never got completed, as you said. And just use the pain to grow and prepare for a healthy relationship or the relationship that you're already in, and just really begin to trust in yourself and to let go of what no longer is serving you and find a really great therapist, find a really great coach but somebody that really understands perhaps, trauma work. I don't know if coaches really do trauma work, some may, but you want to make sure they understand the trauma piece. Maybe, find a sex and love addicts anonymous meeting. There's so much support out there to begin working on these issues.

Neil Sattin: Right. And in your book, "The Marriage and Relationship Junkie" you do offer some great tools for people who are looking to rebuild, and you don't have to be alone in order to go through them. So I'm glad that you qualified that earlier on, where you said, "If you're in a relationship, you don't have to panic and abandon just to find yourself."

Sherry Gaba: Right.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Sherry Gaba: Exactly. And you know what you said too earlier, it's such a great feeling, and I think you said it, I think you used the word, extreme. I divorced my... I've had multiple marriages, multi-relationships, I divorced my ex-husband, he was an alcoholic and he couldn't get sober, and I really gave it my best. And I was lost when that relationship ended because it was a very codependent, obsessive relationship, but once I healed and I started doing things for myself, I joined a great 12-Step Program, I took up canoeing. I started really finding myself, I was able to then hopefully pick somebody else that was much better for me because I knew that no matter what, I could be on my own. And I have to be honest, I never felt that way before. I had never been able to really be alone successfully and be happy, and I truly was happy and single. And that brings me to another topic which would be as changing your verbiage around it, instead of saying to yourself, "Oh, I can't be alone. Oh my God, I can't be alone." It's like, "I can be single." Doesn't that sound a lot better? "I can be single" rather than, "I can't be alone"?

Neil Sattin: Yeah, so much better and it just makes me think of how very few of us truly are alone, ever. I suppose that is true for some people but if you're listening to this podcast, you're here with me, at this moment. And odds are that there are other people in your life who care about you and who want to support you, and not see you in pain and not see you suffering.

Sherry Gaba: Right, exactly. We all want to bond, we all want to connect. The opposite of addiction is connection, but the point of this call is really healthy connection. That's the point of your podcast, healthy relationships. And so that's... But it's not about stigmatizing you if you are in a codependent relationship. How great that you're on this call and now you can start changing things up a little bit and loosen up that codependent relationship, find other things in your life that help you feel good about yourself. And if you have that trauma, really start working on that trauma 'cause that's really where it all begins. I do some coaching, I'm a psychotherapist, but I can't tell you how many times I'll have a coaching client and they're just stuck. And that stuck-ness... They paid for every class, they listened to all of the podcasts, they bought all the books, but there's something inside of them that's stuck. And so to me, it really begins with moving that trauma out of your body, so that you can have a purposeful life and a meaningful relationship.

Neil Sattin: Yeah. So a couple of things, first, let's just regroup, and I want to mention to you listening, I've mentioned a couple of other episodes, if you want to check out the Peter Levine episode, he's been on a couple times, but you definitely want to hear episode 29, which was the first one that he was on, to talk specifically about trauma and healing trauma. The other episode he was on, he was talking more about building resilience which is also important, but not as relevant to what we're talking about here. Also, the episode with Alex Katehakis, talking about addiction and what's involved in our neurobiology of addiction and how to heal that. That is episode 116. So I just wanted you to have those so you can listen to them later. And Sherry, I'm really curious because so many of the tools that you offer in "The Marriage and Relationship Junkie" are very practical, and I hear you as a strong voice of support for someone getting help, and I'm always talking about that here on the show. That there are some things where it's just easier if you're not trying to do it by yourself or trying to wing it, or reading a book and trying to put it into practice. That being said, I would love to offer our listeners something really powerful here that they could do or they could try on their own, that would give them a taste of the kind of healing that we're talking about, a taste of the personal empowerment and freedom that we're talking about.

Neil Sattin: And so I'm wondering if just speaking those words, if there's anything that comes to mind for you that we could offer our listeners as a way to get started, to jump-start the process, whether they're single or in relationship or if you have a different idea for both, then that's good too 'cause there are plenty of single people who are also listening to the show. I hear from you, but all the time to learn so that when you're in your next relationship, you're prepared, and I so appreciate that. I wish I had had a show like this, honestly to listen to way back when...

Sherry Gaba: Well, I think in the beginning, is just to see if you have this issue, is to maybe take my quiz, if you go to sherrygaba.com, I have a love addiction quiz. And that's just a first step in seeing if you are a love addict. I also have a quiz at sherrygaba.com on whether or not you're codependent. Because you can be codependent and not be a love addict. A codependent may be someone who's always trying to fix, control everything outside themselves, addicted to controlling people, places, and things. But a love addict is a little bit more specific, and that is that you are addicted to love, relationship, romance and feel empty if you're not in a relationship or with somebody. So that's a great place to start, is to take those quizzes, and see if it applies. I have some free ebooks that go along with those quizzes. My book is almost like a workbook, every chapter has questions for you to answer, to journal on. It's really... It's years and years of personal and professional experience in a book.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, I found that it was really a great synthesis of lots of different modalities, and you talk about inner child work which you mentioned a few moments ago, you talk about healing trauma, you talk about taking proactive steps in your own life so that you're building your own strength and presence in the world.

Sherry Gaba: And even talking about the law of attraction, on how to attract somebody in a healthy way. Because energetically, we attract what we are. I'm sure you've had conversations with people related to positive psychology or law of attraction, and the truth of the matter is energetically, we're going to attract exactly where we are in our life. When you're in a healthy place, you're going to attract healthy, when you're not, you're going to attract not healthy.

Neil Sattin: Right. I would love it, and I'm putting you on the spot here, so I'm admitting, freely admitting that there's maybe a little bit of pressure here, but I'm curious, yeah, if I've listened to this conversation and thought, "Yep, that's me. Like I don't need to take the quiz, I know it's me, and oh my God, with what Sherry just said about attracting what is within, is what we attract without, now I'm really screwed." What can we do to help someone experience a shift even around that? How do you experience that shift in who you are, let's say... What's coming to me is like who you are energetically and what you want to be in the world, in such a way that you can feel what it's like to see the world with different glasses on?

Sherry Gaba: That's a very broad question. I don't even know how to answer that because I think it's a process, I don't think there's an instant fix.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, of course not.

Sherry Gaba: I think the only thing I can say is the fact that they're on this call and they're hearing things that feel like that could be me when they're actually moving out of denial and that's the first step. I suppose, what I would say is, the first step is waking up to the truth. Waking up to the truth and "Oh my God, this... I realize that I am not complete unless I'm coupled up." And just knowing that is the first step. And then the next step is to... As you said, you can read a book that doesn't always do the magic. I'd love for people to pick up my book and dive deeper into even my story to see if they can relate and all the exercises. But hiring somebody like yourself who does relationship coaching or maybe working with someone like me who dives more into love addiction piece, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. You definitely put me on the spot.

Neil Sattin: Okay. Well, I feel like this will take form, this will take shape, so I'm not worried.

Sherry Gaba: Yeah, one thing I could do with everybody right now, which might be a way to metaphorically move to the other side in the moment, is I can do some positive affirmations right now on the call. And then, we know that positive affirmations change the wiring within your brain, and if you keep doing it it's going to keep changing the wiring in your brain of how you see things from negative to positive. So I'm going to say some affirmations maybe Neil you can repeat after me and everybody listening, and this might answer your question of, what would that feel like if we were in the middle of that transition from emptiness to wholeness? Does that... What do you think? Okay. Okay. So repeat after me, I'm a lovable and valuable person.

Neil Sattin: I am a lovable and valuable person.

Sherry Gaba: I am deserving of a healthy partner.

Neil Sattin: I am deserving of a healthy partner.

Sherry Gaba: Who is capable of loving, respecting and honoring me as a person.

Neil Sattin: A healthy partner who is capable of loving, honoring and respecting me as a person.

Sherry Gaba: Withdrawal will not last forever.

Neil Sattin: Withdrawal will not last forever.

Sherry Gaba: My needs and wants are important.

Neil Sattin: My needs and wants are important.

Sherry Gaba: All my experiences contribute to my growth.

Neil Sattin: All my experiences contribute to my growth.

Sherry Gaba: I am learning to let go of dependencies on others.

Neil Sattin: I'm learning to let go of dependencies on others.

Sherry Gaba: And relying on myself for happiness.

Neil Sattin: And relying on myself for happiness.

Sherry Gaba: I walk away from toxic people.

Neil Sattin: I walk away from toxic People.

Sherry Gaba: I create my own truth in love.

Neil Sattin: I create my own truth in love.

Sherry Gaba: And that's that. And so maybe there is a little energetic shift that people might be experiencing right now. Again, I'm not about instant fixes but this is a beginning point, this is a starting point, and that's really all we have is a starting point and then we transit, we grow from there.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, one thing that I really love about that exercise and the practice of positive affirmation, yes, there's the way that it reinforces a different neuro pathway within us and a different energetic pathway in terms of what we project into the world around us.

Sherry Gaba: Yes.

Neil Sattin: On top of that, I feel like I got to recognize, "Oh these are the places where there's a little bit of dissonance within me, like when I say it, I can't say it with 100% conviction. And so if that's true, that I'm not able to say it with 100% conviction, then to me that indicates a place where there's some work to be done.

Sherry Gaba: Yeah, that's so true, because for the law of attraction to work or to attract what it is that you desire, you have to be congruent with what you're saying and believing and what you're actually doing on the outside. So, that's exactly true. There is a dissonance, if you're feeling any kind of like, "Oh, that's not completely true," then there's a really good chance that how you're acting in the world, how you're behaving in the world or being in the world is not a match to how you really feel. You need to work on that a little bit because the congruency is what allows you to attract either the healthy relationship that you desire or the one that you're in.

Neil Sattin: Right. This reminds me a little bit of what might be the next step in this process. It's not the next step necessarily, but a lot of times with my clients, there can be this moment where you realize like, "Oh." For instance let's say, this wasn't true for me in this moment, but it has been true in the past, where I might say, "Oh, I'm worthy of being loved and I'm lovable." And I think I've even shared with my audience in a past episode, a time when that actually didn't really feel true for me. And so when that's not entirely true for you, the choices that you make are totally different than if you are to... If you recognize, "Oh, there was a little bit of a hitch when I said that statement out loud," or it could have been one of the other things that Sherry just offered you, then you can ask yourself, "Well, if I did think that I was lovable and worthy of love, how does that act? How would I act in the world from that perspective?" You get to try on that lens...

Sherry Gaba: Yeah.

Neil Sattin: Once you've identified where it's missing, You can be like, "Well, if I were that what would the world look like?"

Sherry Gaba: And even more important is to make friends with that intuition that you know to be true. In other words, don't run away from what you know to be true, because then you're stepping into that denial lens again, is where, "Oh, I feel this, and I know it's not right but I don't care, I'm just going to close my eyes." And my whole mission in life is to keep people awake to their truth. So not to be afraid of the truth, the truth doesn't mean you have to break up with your partner this minute, it doesn't mean that you have to spend the rest of your life soul searching, it doesn't mean that you have to go get a divorce, it doesn't mean that you have to get off that dating app, it just means you need to just become aware and to stay in truth. And as long as you do that, the transformation is possible.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, I take a really strong stand for the process that we go through as individuals and the effect that that can have on our partnerships. So lest do you think that if you're in a dysfunctional relationship, the whole point of this show isn't that it's perfect, the point is, it probably isn't perfect. And so you get to take steps that help you transform you and thus transform the whole dynamic.

Sherry Gaba: Yeah, and not be afraid, let go of that fear, just welcome up the chance to transform. Welcome up that the exactly that life is messy and as long as you stay away and you're willing to grow... We're all growing, we're all changing, we're all making better choices, hopefully, learning from our mistakes but it's not about beating ourselves up, it's about having the great compassion of humanity that we are, that we're just humans doing the best that we can. That was one of the points of writing the book, "The marriage and Relationship Junkie" was that I really wanted to eradicate the stigma around someone like myself who's been married multiple times, who's had multiple relationships instead of walking around thinking "I'm a failure," or those that read my book think that they're a failure because they just couldn't get it right, is to just have an understanding of where that began and how can I change that the trajectory of the future?

Sherry Gaba: So that I, maybe, do things in a different way and make different choices, 'cause life is filled with choices. And to own up to those choices, not to beat yourself up because of those choices, because there was a reason you made those choices. My choices were already paved for me when I was born two and a half months early, there was nothing I was going to be able to do about that. I had separation anxiety, I had abandonment issues, and that was going to be... Those feelings were going to be based on the decisions that I made in relationships.

Neil Sattin: Right, and they were nobody's fault.

Sherry Gaba: Nobody's fault. So we're not victims, we're just people that come from different histories, different experiences, and there's a reason why we are. I did one podcast with a woman who's been married six times, she had no idea, she started hysterically crying on the call. She was the host, because she goes, "Oh my God, you have labeled what I've always known, but didn't know what to call it, that's me." And it's like, "Okay, that's me? Okay great. So let's get curious about that." Doesn't mean we have to divorce our sixth husband, it just means, "Am I in a healthy relationship? Did I make a good choice and what can I do to heal all of that that brought me here today?"

Neil Sattin: Right. They say the sixth time is a charm for a reason, right?

Sherry Gaba: I think it's the third one.

[chuckle]

Neil Sattin: I'm just kidding.

Sherry Gaba: Oh, okay. [laughter] My attitude is, do until you do it right, I don't think I ever... I won't say never, I'm not really interested at this point in my life, getting married again, but I certainly... I'm enjoying a healthy relationship, and I think that anything's possible. Anything's possible.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, so one important thing that I'd like to chat about before we go, because I think one of the hesitations that people have around labeling and use that word a moment ago, labeling themselves as an addict, is the stigma that comes with it, the sense of, "Oh, this is inescapable, if I admit that I'm an addict then... " You hear the talk about a cliche like, "Once an addict, always an addict." And I'm curious for you, what's the truth in that versus that there is a true path for healing and... 'Cause I like that sense that the truth will set you free. If you're willing to look at your patterns, then that gives you a whole lot of power to make different kinds of choices for yourself and to heal the dysfunctional ways that you're looking for connection and regulation in your life and create positive ways of doing that.

Sherry Gaba: Well, I think if you are a love addict per se, let's say, I'm not going to address substance abuse 'cause that might be a different... That goes a different way. That's a whole other topic, but if you feel that you might be a love addict, and you feel like you've had early trauma, I highly, highly recommend getting the support you need around that finding a really great somatic experiencing practitioner, reading up on Peter Levine's work, maybe even getting EMDR, that's another modality. I think that really healing that early trauma is important because, without that, I don't think you can make choices that are going to be in your best interest 'cause you haven't healed what is already inside of you that needs to be discharged in order to bring positivity back into your life. That work was the greatest work that I ever did in my life, join a sex and love addicts anonymous meeting, do that work, so you can bring healthy love into your life. I can't emphasize that enough because once I did that work, my whole life changed. Am I still a love addict? I guess is what you're asking, yes, I have to always be mindful for the rest of my life about love addict codependent behaviors. If I start getting obsessive, if I start just focusing on the person I'm with, start giving up my friendships, there's a...

Sherry Gaba: I have to be continually vigilant at those things. And what I'm here to say is, once you do that work of trauma and self-regulation, you're less apt to become codependent again or making someone else your whole life, because you don't need to do that anymore because everything that you know and feel is within you, you feel whole already, so there's no need to be attached to just that one person, but I still have to be vigilant about it. Does that make sense?

Neil Sattin: Absolutely, and the question, it's kind of a rhetorical question that comes up, is like, "Why wouldn't you want to be vigilant about those things?" I would want to know, first thing, if I'm starting to sacrifice my friendships and disappear into my relationship, I would want to know that, at any point in time, addict or not.

Sherry Gaba: A few are an example of raw and real. You actually have a boyfriend and he's going to be going away for a couple of weeks, and that early piece of trauma comes up and goes. "This feels a little bit scary," like, "Oh, am I being abandoned?" And then I just... But because I've done the work, I can sit with that and I can be with it, and notice it and feel it and discharge it instead of becoming needy and obsessive and go into fear, "He's going to leave me," all of those things that I would have done in the past. Instead, I can just be the curious observer of the feelings and the thoughts and I can let it go. And that's a real example.

Neil Sattin: Yeah.

Sherry Gaba: That I'm still that baby that was born two and a half months early, but I have tools and ways to deal with those feelings that might come up rather than act out on them.

Neil Sattin: Yeah, yeah, that's great, that's great. And I'm reminded too that it clicked into place for me actually, when you were describing that, which is that I think probably, part of that, the dopamine rush that we were talking about earlier and that pleasure, it actually is creating the illusion of safety. And I think it's been theorized, maybe John Gorman was even talking about this, that if we didn't feel that temporary love blindness at the beginning, we might never get into a relationship anyway. You almost need that to jump-start you into connection. But that being said, there are so much healthier ways of developing safety, and you were just talking about that inner safety and then there are also, of course, the healthy ways of developing safety in your relationship so that when your partner goes away for two weeks, there's true safety there. So you can counterbalance your inner safety with, "And we've created a container that actually I can rely on and I trust."

Sherry Gaba: Exactly, a container within and maybe a container in the relationship. But certainly, that container within is vital, or you're going to do behaviors that... You're going to start doing all those obsessive behaviors, those needy behaviors that are not going to help the relationship.

Neil Sattin: Right, they're crucial, crucial stuff. Well, Sherry Gaba, thank you so much for being here with us today, what a far-ranging conversation we've had. And of course, I feel like we could talk longer, but I want to respect your time. Your book, "The Marriage and Relationship Junkie" is a great read full of very practical stuff for you if you're thinking that this is something you identify with on some level and there's a path towards recovery in the book, so I highly recommend that. Sherry, you mentioned your website sherrygaba.com, and it's S-H-E-R-R-Y. I guess we should clarify that. We'll have links to all of this in the transcript for the show, which as a reminder, you can get if you visit neilsattin.com/gaba, G-A-B-A, or text the word "passion" to the number 33444 and follow the instructions. Sherry, I really appreciate your time today.

Sherry Gaba: Oh my God, I love... This is probably one of the best interviews I've had. You truly know your subject, and you've obviously done a lot of homework and work on yourself and your relationship and I'm really grateful for your platform and for giving me this opportunity today, thank you so, so much.

Neil Sattin: You are so welcome.

 

When is it time to start over with someone new? Isn't your next relationship going to be better, simply because you've learned what to look for in a new partner? If you're considering ending your current relationship, how do you know you're making the right decision? Do you think you've tried it all to make things work? How do you know if you've truly "tried everything"? In today's episode, we'll explore how to make these important decisions, so that whatever you choose you can do it confidently. And like you might expect, the answer to those questions isn't quite as obvious as you might think.

As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it!

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Transcript:

Hello and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. And thank you for joining me here, today, on episode 165. I hope that you took some time to listen to last week’s episode, with Guy Finley, on how you can dissolve conflict in your relationship, and learn the lessons that you’re meant to learn. Of course it’s all important or it wouldn’t be here on the show - but you’ll see why, in a moment, last week’s episode is particularly relevant.

So - I got a great question recently. It went something like this:

Dear Neil - I’m confused. Every time I hear of someone in a happier, better, more fulfilling relationship - it’s always their SECOND marriage. Are first marriages that aren’t working out just doomed to failure? Is the only way to get an exceptional relationship, where you’re thriving, to ditch the first person and find someone new? What’s missing in first relationships that people are getting in second relationships?

Like I said, a great question. I mean, here I am - right? Divorced. Happy in my second marriage. And I think that’s the danger, right? Of thinking that second marriages are amazing - they allow us to undo all of the mistakes that we made in marriage #1. Or if you’re not married, but in a relationship, when you’re having a tough time, or thinking that you’re going to just have to suffer in an unfulfilling situation, the allure of finding another person that will be better is right there, staring you in the face.

It’s an interesting twist on the age-old question of “Should I stay or should I go?” If people are so much happier during the next go-around, then what’s the point of sticking it out with this person?

So, I want to shine a little perspective on this - and give you some ways to think about your situation, and what the right thing to do is.

My first instinct here was to just bring up the statistic that while 50% or so of first marriages end in divorce - the number of second marriages that end in divorce is actually 60% - and 70% for third marriages! So while it’s tempting to see someone a year or two or three into a new relationship and think about how lucky they are - bear in mind that the chances are even worse for them that they’ll stay together. It’s possible that you’re seeing them early enough in their relationship that everything SEEMS to be better. All the nuisances of their old relationship aren’t here, because they managed to pick someone who didn’t have any of the dissatisfying traits that caused them to break up. But often it just takes a little time, and then the cracks in the perfection start to appear.

And when that happens you get to find out if this “second marriage” - or newer, better relationship, is truly going to stand the test of time.  Actually, it’s often not right when that happens, but much later - because often we’ll wait months and months - years, even - before we decide that things have gotten bad enough that it’s time to leave. John Gottman’s statistic comes to mind, that it takes the average couple 6 years PAST when they should have gotten help to actually get help. Now I’m not sure if the Gottmans know exactly why that is - but at least part of that could be not wanting to believe that yet again another relationship is on its way towards destruction. Not being willing to see it until it’s too late. Or nearly so.

One place where you can potentially benefit from a new partner has to do with the selection process. There is that element, right?, of being on the lookout for specific traits in a new partner - top of the list that comes to mind for me is that a new partner with a growth mindset, and the ability to commit, might help improve your odds in relationship #2. This is of course if you also have a growth mindset and the ability to commit! In a moment, we’ll explore how you can dive a little deeper around this in your current relationship, before you decide that the grass is truly greener.

I will say that this whole journey has been REALLY interesting for me. There have actually been many times when I’ve wondered if I knew then what I know now, if my first marriage would have ended the way that it did. It’s tough to say - and because I respect the privacy of my ex, I’m not going to spend much time speculating about that right now. And, if we’re going to be completely honest here, my journey with Chloe has been part of what’s helped me learn all that I’ve learned. And, of course, it helps to be doing all the research for Relationship Alive, and having the conversations that I’m having, and working with clients from all over the world. It all fits together for me in a way that has helped me have a very different outlook on what’s possible.

Now am I saying that you need to start a podcast in order to get this all figured out? No. Am I saying that you need to get into a new relationship in order to figure out how to make it work with your current partner? No. I’m just trying to give you some perspective on where I’m coming from - but remember that my whole goal here is for you to be able to leverage my learning - so that you can leapfrog ahead in terms of what’s possible for you in your life, and in relationship. There’s enough heavy lifting for you to do in simply learning how to truly show up, and be courageous, and be vulnerable - all of that.

OK - let’s dive back in. We were talking about whether or not you should quit your current relationship to start up again with someone new. And I was trying to inspire, within you, a sense of what else might be possible. What I’d like to do, in this moment, is to give you hope. I realize that might not be the best thing. If you’re convinced that your current relationship is horrible, and that your current partner is NOT the right one for you, then hope might be the last thing you want or need.

You may not know this, but one of my first big hits, back when I was doing more blogging, was an article that I wrote about how to know when to leave a relationship. That article still gets a lot of traffic - at the time, I ended up doing a lot of coaching sessions with people who were commenting on it, or writing to me after reading it. And many times it would seem like the person really just was having trouble making the choice to leave - but they really wanted to leave - and so when I would hear about their situation, and, in the end, give them some ideas - what I thought were “empowering” ideas - to make things better, they would just come back around to the leaving. The escape from pain is a powerful thing.

This is perhaps the moment for the obligatory warning - if you are in a truly abusive relationship, then get out and get help. If you’re not sure if your relationship is abusive, then seek counseling, call a hotline, do something to try and get an objective opinion. And if you’ve determined that it is - get some space and safety for yourself and any children that might be involved. And from that place of having some space - and hopefully some sanity along with it - you can figure out if there’s any safe path to re-entry, after you’ve given some thought to whether or not there’s any reason to re-enter.

That all being said - when you’re in a relationship that has been going downhill for awhile, whether it’s been a long, slow decline - or a rapid descent - things can be pretty bad. You can be at each other all the time. Everything can feel like you’re on the verge of a fight. You can say mean things to each other. Without the skills to change the dynamics in a relationship that’s reached this point, there’s not a lot of hope. However, with some skills, and changing some communication patterns, it’s possible that you can actually make a big shift in the dynamic.

What it comes down to, here, are a few important questions:

1. How important is it to you to try to see things through to a place of renewed connection, and growth? In order to shift things, it’s going to take some effort. And you might have to do things that make you uncomfortable. You might have to learn to quiet the parts within you that are just saying “run” - or saying “fight back”. This kind of effort requires your determination - so if you only kinda maybe sorta want it, that might make it challenging. Especially when you have to face your own shit.
2. I know, I know - you feel like you’ve tried everything. Everyone always feels like they’ve tried everything. And everything may or may not be true. The question is, how much have you tried that’s actually different? A stretch from what you normally do? We get where we are because of what we normally do - generally our lives are simply the result of our habits of being. So truly trying “everything” would mean being able to look back and see exactly which habits of yours you’ve taken responsibility for - in other words, the way that you’ve contributed to the dynamic in your relationship - and you would also see the ways that you’ve directly changed those habits into something else. And you’ve measured the results.
3. Are you willing to see the world through your partner’s eyes? What is their experience of you truly like? Can you see how the way that they act actually makes sense when you see and experience the world the way that they do? What does that change about how you approach them and interact with them?

Typically, it is helpful to choose a period of time during which you take the question of leaving off the table for yourself. This will definitely provoke the parts of you who want to leave (or who have already checked themselves out of the relationship) and you’ll probably have your hands at least partly full with trying to help those parts of you chill out about your renewed commitment to the relationship. But the only way that you’re going to truly find out what’s possible is to stop your threats of leaving and escape from jeopardizing either the safety of the relationship for your partner, or your willingness to make different, sometimes difficult, choices to act differently. Act differently, get different results.

At some point you might need to ask yourself the question to assess whether or not your partner is willing to change. If things have really come to a head, then this might also be the time to demand - ok, politely insist - that your partner get some help with you - either coaching, or a counselor, or a retreat, or a course - you get the picture. It’s best if you can involve them, somehow, in the process of actually seeing the dynamic of your relationship for what it is - ie. something that’s not quite working right - and to see the benefit of owning their own part in it - just like YOU’RE doing, right?

If you can get your partner to come to the table, then that will help you shift course more quickly. Because you can find ways to collaborate - after all, in most situations it’s in BOTH of your best interests to be working together on the project of improving your relationship. More joy and connection for everyone that way! But if they don’t come to the table right away, don’t despair - as you’ve heard many times on this show, there are all kinds of ways that you can create change and shifts within yourself and in the way that you show up in your relationship. And this, will in turn, create change in your relationship.

When you’ve been with someone, then you’re actually in some ways at an advantage. Do you know them well enough to know what motivates them? What would motivate your partner to want to come to the table? What would be their biggest complaint about you? What is their biggest desire? How can you show your partner that they matter to you in a way that will make a difference to them? Are there ways that you have been ignoring problems that they’ve been trying to bring up with you? Are there ways that you could show them the connection between what they want in your relationship and what you want?

What are some other questions that would help you access what you’ve learned in all of your time with this person? Do you like how I did that? I asked you a question to help you generate more questions!

Finally, let’s revisit the question of a timeline. As you might recall, I was mentioned taking “leaving” off the table. By the way, this is true whether or not you’re the one who’s thinking about leaving. If your partner is thinking about leaving, you can still make the decision one way or another that YOU will be committed to the relationship, to seeing what changes you can effect on your own or in collaboration. It can sometimes be surprising to see just how many ways that we are not fully embodying our commitment to the relationship - even when we think that we’re a solid “yes” we could still have exits and escape routes all over the place. Especially when there’s pain going on your relationship - those are the times that’s most challenging to stay present. And, again, it’s the ability to stay present during those times that will help you face whatever is truly happening, and be in a position to do something about it.

When you get to the end of the time limit that you’ve set for yourself, it’s time to reassess. How are things going? Have they gotten better? Are there cracks of light showing in the darkness? And what steps have you taken during that time? Did you make definite changes in your behavior? In your outlook? Did you get help? What worked, and what didn’t? It’s just as important to keep track of the attempts that went nowhere as it is to keep track of your successes and build on them.

In an ideal world, if you truly decide that it’s time to part ways, then my sincere hope is that you and your partner can come to that decision together, and figure out ways to part that allow you to stay kind to each other. It’s not always possible, but it certainly makes parting a whole lot easier - not only on the two of you, but also to the others impacted by your decisions. The rest of your family, your extended family, friends, and community. But as you’ll see, there’s actually plenty of time for you to experiment before you get to that point. And along the way you’ll learn a lot, grow a lot, and - if you decide to try again with someone else - you’ll truly have new ground to cover, vs. having to learn the lessons that you SHOULD have learned in this relationship. See - it’s a win-win.