Jeff and TJ continue their conversation with Russ Hudson by pressing into the lived difference between low-side stress and the “secret ingredient” hidden inside our inner lines—what we avoid is often what we need. Russ unpacks how the Levels of Development change everything: when we slide down the “thermometer,” our stress point can feel like self-abandonment; but when we move with awareness, the same line can become medicine—an entry into shadow, wholeness, and a fuller human life.

From there, Russ introduces “shunting”—the way overwhelm can push us to camp out at a stress point to stop a deeper collapse—and reframes the inner lines as adaptive, liberating pathways rather than personality trivia. The conversation turns toward the three centers(head, heart, body), why “getting more of a center” isn’t about doing more thinking or more action, and why presence isn’t a mood—it’s the capacity to be awake to whatever is true.

They also tackle a live tension in the modern Enneagram world: pushback against “prescribing health,” the difference between information and transformation, and why real development takes time, experience, and patience. Russ shares wisdom on when people (especially teenagers) may or may not be ready for Enneagram work, why he no longer tells people their type, and how presence keeps us from using the system to control ourselves—or others.

The episode closes with Russ previewing upcoming trainings (including instincts and a course on freedom), plus a heartfelt exchange on what mature Enneagram teaching looks like: humility, openness, and a lifelong willingness to keep learning.

Learn more about Russ’s work and upcoming courses: russhudson.com