Strong Feelings

#### Breaking up is hard to do—whether you’re ending a business relationship or a marriage. Bonnie Bogle’s done both, and she’s here to tell us about the good, the bad, and the it’s-just-plain-complicated.

Bonnie cofounded [Mapbox](https://www.mapbox.com/), one of the largest providers of custom online maps in the world. But after growing the business from zero to more than 200 employees, she left it all behind. Now she’s the director of [Brazen](https://brazenglobal.com/philadelphia/) in Philadelphia, where she works with startups at the start of _their_ journeys.

Bonnie tells us about what it was like to launch Mapbox with her husband as her business partner—precisely at the moment they decided to get divorced. She also shares what it was like to leave that same company after building it into a massive success. Oh, _and_ how she knows the secret behind McGruff the Crime Dog’s life story.

> Who cares if this is super unusual? Yeah, we’re getting a divorce, and we’re starting a company together at the same time, and screw it! Let’s just do it. We both want this.

> — **Bonnie Bogle** , cofounder of Mapbox and director of Brazen Philly

We chat with Bonnie about:

- Why living in Peru inspired her to create her first company, build open-source websites, and ultimately provide access to better maps

- How everything Bonnie learned running operations for a quickly growing startup became the backbone for how she’s helping other new businesses launch and grow

- How to decide whether and when to let go of something you love

Follow Bonnie: [Twitter](https://twitter.com/bonnie?lang=en) | [Insta](https://www.instagram.com/bonniebogle/)

### We also dig into…

- When leaving a job is bittersweet, so you hang around for a month (or more)

- Toxic companies, toxic bosses, and realizing when you gotta GTFO

- Crying in the work bathroom: the worst, but also sometimes totally ok

- Breastfeeding at meetups, in Parliament—and wherever the hell you want to (if you want to)

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

[](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

_[Shopify](https://www.shopify.com/careers), a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. **Visit [shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers) for more.**_

[](https://www.getharvest.com/)_[Harvest](https://www.getharvest.com/), makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then **use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off** your first paid month._

#### Welcome to the periodcast! Yep, today’s show is all about menstruation—the good, the bad, and the _get me a frickin’ heating pad already_. So grab your period product of choice, and join us as we get comfortable talking about the politics of periods, what it’s like to talk about your cycle at work, and why we refuse to keep quiet about this super normal bodily function.

Our guest is Nadya Okamoto, executive director of PERIOD, a nonprofit she founded in high school that’s dedicated to turning menstrual care from a taboo topic into a basic right. She’s also the author of the new book _[Period Power: A Manifesto for the Menstrual Movement](http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Period-Power/Nadya-Okamoto/9781534430204)_, which comes out October 16.

> Eighty percent of our congressional positions are held by men. And if people in power continue to be afraid to talk about periods and do not acknowledge it as an actual need, then where it counts, periods will continue to go unaddressed. So that’s why we need people who don’t menstruate and people who identify as men to be involved.

>

> — **Nadya Okamoto** , founder, [PERIOD](https://www.period.org/) & author, [_Period Power_](http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Period-Power/Nadya-Okamoto/9781534430204)

[](http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Period-Power/Nadya-Okamoto/9781534430204)We chat with Nadya about:

- How experiencing housing instability as a teen led her to see what happens when people can’t afford period products

- Why PERIOD is on a mission to make periods something we celebrate, not hide

- Why she ran for Cambridge City Council at the age of 19—and what she learned in the process

- What it’s like to be running (and scaling) an international nonprofit at the age of 20

### Links on bloody links

- [PERIOD](https://www.period.org)

- [Nadya’s Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/nadyaokamoto/)

- [On Nadya’s city council run](https://www.teenvogue.com/story/nadya-okamoto-explains-what-she-learned-as-a-candidate-for-cambridge-city-council)

- [Pre-order for _Period Power: A Manifesto for the Menstrual Movement_](http://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Period-Power/Nadya-Okamoto/9781534430204)

### Also on the agenda:

- Bringing up menstruation on stage

- Monster post-pregnancy periods

- The unbearable gender-normativity of _way_ too many period-tracking apps

- The magical properties of heating pads

- Stop calling us “girls” already

And finally: if you’re eligible to vote in the U.S., time to [check your registration](https://www.voterparticipation.org/2018-election-dates/)—your state’s deadline might be coming up in the next couple weeks, and you don’t want to miss all the awesome women you could be voting for in the midterms this year.

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

[](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

#### We’ve all heard companies talk big about how they value diversity. But many still aren’t willing to quantify how they’re doing: who works there? Who’s getting hired and promoted? Are people being paid equitably? On today’s show, we talk about diversity, data, and how one engineer’s call for hard numbers shook things up.

That engineer was Tracy Chou—a leading voice in tech industry diversity and inclusion conversations. She’s a wildly talented software engineer who believes in the importance of increasing transparency among tech companies, the need for tech to value a humanities education, and the pleasures of spending way too much time on Twitter.

> As an engineer, I’m so used to having to have data for everything. But the lack of data on the workforce side just felt so hypocritical to me. It seemed like it wasn’t really a problem that we wanted to solve if we weren’t even looking at the data.

> —**[Tracy Chou](https://twitter.com/triketora),  Project Include founding advisor **

We talked with Tracy about:

- What the real picture of diversity in tech companies looks like and [where the numbers are](https://medium.com/@triketora/where-are-the-numbers-cb997a57252).

- Why it’s important for tech companies to get comfortable releasing data about their workforce, and why it’s critical to consider the intersectionality of diversity efforts.

- A nonprofit Tracy helped to found called [Project Include](http://projectinclude.org/), which shares best practices around implementing diversity and inclusion solutions.

Plus, we talk about ch-ch-ch-changes and asking for help:

- Specifically, change at work—[how we deal with it](https://hbr.org/2016/09/how-to-get-better-at-dealing-with-change) and how it can affect us emotionally and physically.

- And yup, we constantly have to remind ourselves that it’s ok to ask for help. The good news is, we’re helping each other do it more. Jenn even got to take a vacation complete with _funnel cake_, because she asked for help with childcare.

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

[](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

_[Shopify](https://www.shopify.com/careers), a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. **Visit [shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers) for more.**_

[](https://www.getharvest.com/)_[Harvest](https://www.getharvest.com/), makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then **use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off** your first paid month._

## Transcript

#### Do you ever feel like you’re facing impossible choices—tradeoffs between family and work, between money and passion, between pushing for a promotion and just wanting to take a damn nap? Well, our guests today have been there. And not only that, they’ve written about it.

[](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/567185/the-ambition-decisions-by-hana-schank-and-elizabeth-wallace/9780525558811/)

Those guests are Hana Schank and Elizabeth Wallace. A few years ago, they were both in their early forties and feeling stuck. So they set out to learn whether other women they knew were feeling the same—and what they could do about it.

Hana and Elizabeth interviewed forty-three women they had first met more than two decades ago, when they were members of the same sorority at Northwestern University. The results of those interviews is the new book [_The Ambition Decisions: What Women Know About Work, Family, and the Path to Building a Life_](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/567185/the-ambition-decisions-by-hana-schank-and-elizabeth-wallace/9780525558811/), which came out in June.

> Ambition is not this entity that is contained in a box labeled “career.” …We wanted to kind of liberate the word ambition from this kind of office-boss-lady idea and let it live outside of those constraints.

>

> — **Elizabeth Wallace** , coauthor, _The Ambition Decisions_

We sat down with Hana and Elizabeth to talk about:

- How they started their project, and what they learned from the women they interviewed

- How ambition often changes over time, and how to embrace that change

- Stuff we often forget about when we’re on “rosé dates”—like figuring out whether your prospective partner supports your ambitions as much as their own

### Links

- [_The Ambition Decisions_](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/567185/the-ambition-decisions-by-hana-schank-and-elizabeth-wallace/9780525558811/) from Penguin Random House

- Hana on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/hanaschank) and [her website](https://hanaschank.me/)

- Elizabeth on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/lizardwallace) and [her website](https://elizabethannwallace.wordpress.com/)

### Also in this episode

Jenn talks about her upcoming maternity leave, and why it sucks to have to “sell” your employer on taking more than three months off. We chat about:

- The FML of the [FMLA (Family and Medical Leave Act)](https://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/)

- Using [short-term disability insurance to get paid during maternity leave](https://fairygodboss.com/career-topics/short-term-disability-insurance-pregnancy-and-maternity-leave-questions-and-answers)

- Ivanka Trump and Marco Rubio’s woefully inadequate [proposed paid leave act](https://www.vox.com/2018/8/6/17648462/rubio-ivanka-republican-paid-leave)

- What it’s like for Sara’s family [taking parental leave in Germany](https://www.workingmother.com/this-is-what-happened-when-germany-paid-women-25k-more-during-maternity-leave)

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

[](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

#### Today’s episode is all about showing up as your most authentic self at work—and about finding a space where you’re supported and respected to do that. It’s also about the challenges of taking risks, the joys of personal growth… and skydiving.

Our guest today is one of the coolest, most totally _herself_ people we know, Ada Powers—a writer, user researcher, community builder, and badass trans woman based in San Diego and currently working at a software company called Tealium. You’ll love her.

> Being able to come to work as myself means that I get to come to work _as_ _myself_. I get to think about, “What would make me happy in this context? What would make me happy and feel fulfilled doing this work?” Ok well maybe it means suggesting this initiative, maybe it means taking on this project, maybe it means changing my responsibilities a bit. It means I get to show up and be engaged with how I actually feel and how that looks.

>

> —[Ada Powers](https://twitter.com/mspowahs), writer, researcher, and community builder

She tells us about:

- How and why she told her company she’s trans before she came in for the interview

- Why she wants her coworkers to know she’s poly

- Why sharing pronouns helps more than just trans folks

- How to take criticism and feel your feelings without being a jerk

- What to do when activism leaves you burnt out

Go be friends with Ada already:

- [On Medium](https://medium.com/@mspowahs)

- [On Twitter](https://twitter.com/mspowahs)

### Also on our agenda:

- Uncovering Katel’s past life as a skydiver

- Reliving our [Vancouver live show](/podcast/s3-bonus/)

- Recreating the Kate and Leo _Titanic_ bow scene on stage

- Unlearning the habit of immediately gendering strangers

- Celebrating the besties of yesterday, today, and tomorrow

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

[](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

_[Shopify](https://www.shopify.com/careers), a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit [shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers) for more._

[](https://www.getharvest.com/)_[Harvest](https://www.getharvest.com/), makers of awesome software to help you track your time, manage your projects, and get paid. Try it free, then **use code NOYOUGO to get 50% off** your first paid month._

[](https://www.awaytravel.com/shop?utm_source=nyg&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=nyg)

#### Welcome to Season 3, friends! We’re so hyped to get back into the game with Jolie Kerr, a podcaster, writer, and _New York Times_ bestselling author who’s here to help us all be a little less gross.

Jolie is best known as the expert at “Ask A Clean Person,” where she dishes up advice on cleaning basically anything—and we mean _anything_. She’s also the _dirtiest_ clean person we’ve ever met—like, who else is going to get tell you about the best way to wash your sex toys and clean cum stains off the couch?

We ask Jolie about becoming a cleaning expert, turning her part-time column into a media empire, and navigating the politics and gendered expectations around who cleans what. Plus, she gives us great advice on how we can all be just a little bit less gross.

> In my experience, men have found it very empowering to read my columns — to know that they’re geared towards them. They are written for a male audience and they’re not condescending. They’re funny. They’re oftentimes raunchy. I always say, you know, “Clean person. Dirty mind.”

>

> [Jolie Kerr](https://twitter.com/joliekerr), “Ask A Clean Person” creator and NYT bestselling author

### Links on links on links:

- The Ask a Clean Person empire: the [AACP Lifehacker column](https://lifehacker.com/tag/ask-a-clean-person), Jolie’s [_New York Times_ archive](https://www.nytimes.com/by/jolie-kerr), the [AACP podcast](https://www.acast.com/askacleanperson) on acast, and of course the [original column on _The Hairpin_](https://www.thehairpin.com/tag/ask-a-clean-person/) (RIP)

- _[My Boyfriend Barfed in My Handbag… and Other Things You Can’t Ask Martha](https://www.amazon.com/Boyfriend-Barfed-Handbag-Things-Martha/dp/0142196932)_, Jolie’s bestselling book

- [How to wash a chest binder and avoid shirt stains after top surgery](https://www.acast.com/askacleanperson/ep126-bindingoptions)

- [Hand-wash your bras already](https://www.racked.com/2015/10/9/9463285/bra-washing-guide) (hahahahaha jk jk we’re using a mesh bag)

- [Hygge](https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-year-of-hygge-the-danish-obsession-with-getting-cozy) versus [KonMari](https://konmari.com/)

Also in this episode: Jenn shares some big news, Katel spends all her Swiss Francs on frites, and Sara shops for a therapist—with the help of Katel’s therapist (who we all [met last season](http://www.noyougoshow.com/podcast/s2e5/)).

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:

[](https://www.shopify.com/careers)

_[Shopify](https://www.shopify.com/careers), a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit [shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers) for more._

[](https://www.getharvest.com/)

#### Yep, we’ve gone international! Our very first live show was a variety hour featuring Katel & Sara at Vancouver’s Design & Content Conference.

So listen up if you want to hear about peeing in a jumpsuit, emailing with Christina Aguilera’s mom, editing footage of crop dusting in Saskatchewan, and rocking a sweet feminist boob necklace. (Uh, you definitely do.)

Plus, this special treat has not just one but _two_ mini-interviews:

- **[Yesenia Perez-Cruz](https://www.yeseniaperezcruz.com/)**, a design director at Vox Media and not-so-secret Xtina fan who’s long been one of our favorite speakers

- **[Tara Codrington](https://twitter.com/tarasdoingstuff)**, a new presence on stage and a content specialist at the City of Surrey (and now one of our _new_ favorite speakers) with a storied past in “Canadian lifestyle TV”

You’ll also hear live career advice, fuck yeahs from the audience, and a ton more.

Huge thanks to everyone who made this live show possible!

- Steve Fisher and Shannon Fisher at the [Republic of Quality](https://republicofquality.com/)

- All the awesome [Design & Content Conference](https://content.design) staff, volunteers, and attendees

- [Craft CMS](https://craftcms.com) for sponsoring the party where we held the show

- [Lawrence Beamen](https://lawrencebeamen.com/), whose amazing rendition of “Lean On Me” closed down the show (but sadly couldn’t make it into the recording due to copyright)

_This episode was recorded live on July 26, 2018, at the [York Theatre](http://yorktheatre.ca/) in beautiful Vancouver, British Columbia._

#### Welcome to Season 3 of No, You Go—a weekly show about ambition, friendship, feminism…and always finding something to say _fuck yeah_ about.

Starting August 14, we’ll be back and better than ever, talking to some of our favorite activists, authors, entrepreneurs, and more about how they got where they are, what they learned in the process, and how they keep their heads up in tough times.

Here’s just a taste of what’s in store.

## Transcript

**Sara Wachter-Boettcher:** If we got Slim Jim as a sponsor, I would say yes. I’m sorry, I would take that money”

[Musical transition]

**SWB** Hey everyone, we are back from sipping cool drinks by the pool, and we are _so_ hyped to tell you about Season 3 of No, You Go—a weekly show about ambition, friendship, feminism…and always finding something to say _fuck yeah_ about.

**JL** We didn’t sign Slim Jim as a sponsor, but we _did_ scheme up tons of ways to make NYG better than ever. Starting August 14, we’ll be talking to some of our favorite activists, authors, entrepreneurs, and more about how they got where they are, what they learned in the process, and how they keep their heads up in tough times. I’m Jenn Lukas, and hey, I’m pregnant again! I’m looking forward to talking about juggling my career, toddler, and upcoming new baby. I can’t wait to explore how major life changes affect—or don’t affect—our career ambitions…_and_ to see if I ever get sick of ice cream. I’m really living the pregnant-lady stereotype over here!

**Katel LeDû** I’m Katel LeDu, and I look like I have my shit together most of the time. (Secret: I don’t, and it’s ok!) And you know what? That inspires me to keep talking about what it takes to live my best, healthiest life at work and at home. I hope our stories help—and I hope you’ll join us.

**SWB** And I’m Sara Wachter-Boettcher, and I am _so_ ready to keep having conversations that make me think _and_ feel—about issues like gender, race, class, mental health, and more. And I’m excited to share those conversations with you, so we can all get better at talking about tough stuff—together. Plus, we’re gonna keep on interviewing the coolest women and nonbinary people we can find. From guests who make us feel like burning shit down…

**Nicole Sanchez clip** It’s a Benetton ad. You know? If you can make your website of your company feature a black employee, you’re good. Like that’s where we are now. That’s the bar.

**JL** To guests who make us pump our fists with joy…

**Saron Yitbarek clip** And she looked at me and she said, “I don’t believe in stepping stones.” And it just gave me chills. And I was like, “Ahhhh! I too do not believe in stepping stones.” It was amazing.

**SWB** And guests who get super real.

**Jolie Kerr clip** It was subversive to have a Seven Sisters-educated woman writing about cum stains. And that’s who I am.

**KL** Oh my god. I still can’t get over that one. And we’re only just getting started! New episodes of No, You Go start August 14th, and you won’t want to miss a single one. Because everyone deserves a group of badass women in their corner. Especially you. Subscribe now wherever you listen to podcasts.

**JL** And if you like NYG, don’t miss _I Love That_, our biweekly newsletter! Head to [noyougoshow.com/ILoveThat](http://www.noyougoshow.com/newsletter/) to sign up.

[Musical outro]

#### And that’s a wrap on Season 2! What better way to head into a summer break than with Nicole Sanchez, one of the smartest, sharpest, most trusted voices on building diverse and inclusive workplaces?

We talk with the founder of Vaya Consulting and lecturer at Berkeley’s Haas School of Business about what has and hasn’t changed in tech culture, how companies try to shortcut diversity efforts, and why well-intentioned white people often screw up.

> We’re taking on 500 years of colonial America when we talk about race. And nobody can be expected to do that in a training… We’ve hit this mainstream complacency with, “Great. You hit 4% black people in your company. Wonderful. Oh. You have 6% Latinx. Wow! You’re really doing well.” Like that’s kind of where the conversation is stuck. It’s a Benetton ad.

> —Nicole Sanchez, founder of Vaya Consulting

We’re taking a few weeks off, but don’t worry: Nicole’s going to leave you _fired up_ all summer. And look for new episodes of NYG in August!

### Links on links on links:

- Nicole’s company, [Vaya Consulting](https://www.vayaconsulting.com) (and their new [management training courses](https://www.vayaconsulting.com/inclusive-management-training))

- “[Diversity in tech and what we’ve already lost](https://medium.com/@nmsanchez/diversity-in-tech-and-what-we-ve-already-lost-987aeb58eb),” Nicole’s moving essay about her father and STEM

- Ijeoma Oluo’s stellar read, [_So You Want to Talk About Race_](https://www.sealpress.com/titles/ijeoma-oluo/so-you-want-to-talk-about-race/9781580056779/)

- Starbucks, [anti-blackness](https://medium.com/@nmsanchez/five-pieces-of-free-advice-for-starbucks-d5811f3cd2a0), and [why unconscious bias training isn’t enough](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/05/starbucks-unconscious-bias-training/559415/)

### Also in this episode

We, like, talk about our word choice on the show and off—from “I think” to “I don’t know”—and debate the benefits and drawbacks of changing how we speak.

- [Just Not Sorry](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/just-not-sorry-the-gmail/fmegmibednnlgojepmidhlhpjbppmlci?hl=en-US), an app that “warns you when you write emails using words which undermine your message” (we’re skeptical)

- “[From Upspeak To Vocal Fry: Are We ‘Policing’ Young Women’s Voices?](https://www.npr.org/2015/07/23/425608745/from-upspeak-to-vocal-fry-are-we-policing-young-womens-voices)”

- Turns out, [men use filler words _more_ than women](http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/08/12/um_vs_uh_gender_disparity_in_the_use_of_filler_words.html)

Have a bitchin’ summer, everyone! Stay sweet and we’ll see you in August!

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:


_[Shopify](https://www.shopify.com/careers), a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit [shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers) to see what they’re talking about._


#### When Lilly Chin knew she couldn’t lose during Final Jeopardy, she decided to give a joke answer: “Who is the Spiciest Memelord?” But that joke became a meme itself—turning Lilly into not just the College Jeopardy champion, but an internet sensation.

Today, we chat with the MIT grad student about what it was like to be on the show, how the internet treats women in the public eye, and how her brush with fame changed the way she looks at online visibility. We also talk about Lilly’s research on soft robots, mentorship, Twitch streaming, and doing it all for the stories.

> We’re so used to thinking about women in terms of their outward appearance that even when it’s on a very academic game like _Jeopardy_, people are still defaulting to thinking of, like, an object of attraction.

> —Lilly Chin, MIT PhD student and _College Jeopardy_ champ

_Note: We’ve donated net proceeds from this episode to [RAICES](https://actionnetwork.org/fundraising/leafund), the largest immigrant legal services organization in Texas, and [ActBlue’s fund supporting 12 organizations](https://secure.actblue.com/donate/kidsattheborder) working with migrant, detained, or deported children and families. Please join us. _

### Links from the interview:

- [Lilly’s website](http://lillych.in/)

- The infamous [“Who is the spiciest memelord?” clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pLl0zID6UM)

- The [Jeopardy subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jeopardy/)

- Talia Levin’s article about appearing on Jeopardy, [“Big Tits for $600”](https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/4xkz7g/big-tits-for-600-the-ugly-sexist-aftermath-of-appearing-on-jeopardy)

- [Justine Sacco’s tweet about AIDS in Africa](https://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/this-is-how-a-womans-offensive-tweet-became-the-worlds-top-s?utm_term=.kqZV9aLbY#.gdeGbNd3O)

- [_So You’ve Been Publicly Shamed_](https://www.npr.org/2015/04/01/396384141/jon-ronson-has-nothing-to-be-ashamed-of-but-what-about-the-rest-of-us) by Jon Ronson

- The [“right to be forgotten”](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/right-to-be-forgotten) concept

- The field of [soft robotics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_robotics)

### Also in this episode:

- Creating intimate spaces online, from [our newsletter](http://www.noyougoshow.com/newsletter/) to Tiny Letters to private Slack accounts

- Shopping feminist, ethical, local, and just plain good companies

- Why Katel has the [best sweatshirt ever](http://www.noyougoshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/katel-headshot-1-660x480.jpeg)

## Sponsors

This episode of NYG is brought to you by:


_[Shopify](https://www.shopify.com/careers), a leading global commerce platform that’s building a world-class team to define the future of entrepreneurship. Visit [shopify.com/careers](https://www.shopify.com/careers) to see what they’re talking about._