I had the pleasure of being interviewed by Dr. Jen Pfleghaar, DO, ABOIM @integrativedrmom on her podcast recently. Dr. Jen is very passionate about health. She completed a fellowship in Integrative Medicine. Healthcare is often symptom-focused and reactive, rather than prevention-focused and proactive. Patients and physicians rarely discuss nutrition, exercise, and lifestyle change, and instead focus mainly on diagnosis and treatment of disease. Many clinicians feel unprepared to discuss the safe and effective use of dietary supplements or herbal medicines, or how to help patients incorporate relaxation or mind-body practices into their lives. She believes it is important to take the time with each patient and develop a strong relationship. Enjoy the show.
-Emergency Medicine Physician
-Integrative Medicine Physician
-Owner of Healthology Integrative Med Spa
-Owner Healthology by Dr. Jen
Find her here:
www.healthologymedspa.comwww.healthologybydrjen.comwww.integrativedrmom.comIf you want more, sign up for my newsletter at: www.drsamberne.com. If you have any questions, submit them to [email protected] or you can now text me! Text ‘Join’ to 1-844-932-1291 to join the community and ask your questions!
eyes, people, pfa, prescription, nearsightedness, retina, light, lens, lasik surgery, vision, health, nearsighted, study, contacts, cataracts, sam, improve, reduce, developed, red light
Hey everybody, its Dr. Sam, I’d like to welcome you to my EyeClarity podcast. If you want to get in touch with me with questions, you can email me at [email protected]. And you can always text me your questions at 1-844-932-1291.
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This is going to offer members new information on how to improve their vision and wellness. So you will get access to articles, video, blogs, podcasts, and webinars. Also a live Q&A with me. And all of this information will empower you to make informed decisions about your vision and your health. So to sign up to go to my website, drsamberne.com. And you can see the details there. All right now on to the show.
Hi, it’s Dr. Jen. So we’re gonna have a great podcast today. And actually, you all asked for this podcast and someone said you got to check out Dr. Sam Berne Instagram page and he is where to go for this information. And we are talking about the eyes today. So everything holistic Dr. Sam Berne, his mission is to be your trusted source of information and provide the necessary tools to help solve Ira related problems using science based methods. Instead of living out your diagnosis and immediately turning to surgery or pharmaceuticals, Dr. Berne offers a roadmap to help you deepen the connection to your eyes and increase your health. So welcome Dr. Sam, holistic optometrist. Tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, thanks so much for having me today. So I’m a Doctor of optometry and I also have had advanced studies in child development. I’ve also studied naturopathic medicine, acupuncture, cranial sacral therapy, aromatherapy, and functional medicine. And so over the years, I’ve been inspired to help people improve their vision, I call it the wellness model instead of the disease based model that most eye doctors represent. And so I’m super excited to talk to you today about my work.
I am so excited. So tell us a little bit about how you went from traditional medicine basically right to what you do now. And are you like the black sheep? Because I know you are because there’s not a lot of you out there. Yeah, I’m certainly a pioneer probably like you. And it all started when I was about eight years old and I was diagnosed with a learning disability. And my mom bless her heart took me everywhere. And we ended up at an ophthalmologists office and he diagnosed me with nearsightedness. So I became very nearsighted. I was a memorizer. And that’s how I got through school. And when I graduated optometry school, I met a holistic developmental optometrist went through his physical eye therapy program. And he said two things to me. First of all, the reason why you have a learning problem is your left eye wanders out. And I said, Oh, that’s why I see double. And so through his physical therapy, I was able to learn how to use my two eyes together, the learning problem went away. That was an epiphany. And my nearsightedness went away completely. So I see 2020 on the eye chart I’ve ever since that was over 40 years ago. And so I decided this is my path. I want to help people improve their vision. And, you know, the rest of the story has been written.
That’s amazing. And I love that you turn your childhood struggles into your passion to help others because you don’t want anyone else to struggle like that. That’s so cool. So what are the methods that you use to reverse nearsightedness, farsightedness, and astigmatism?
Well, first of all, we want to blame faulty vision on the eyeball. And it’s not so much the eyeball but it’s the programming what our mind and brain is saying to our eyes. And there’s a certain
have perhaps experience or set of circumstances where we make adaptations based on some confusion or misunderstanding. And so we adapt our eyes to accommodate to the circumstance so we can be successful. So like in nearsightedness, what we do is we pull the world in, we tighten up our eyes, it gets blurry at distance, and we get a nearsighted lens, which reinforces our reaction. In farsightedness, we push the world away. And we need to make things artificially bigger than they really are. So we get a magnifying lens. But that reduces our responsiveness and our focusing. And then the stigmatism has to do with posture, how we hold our head, our neck, even our spine. And so we develop a twist in our body or our eyes. And so this creates a strange kind of warping in the perception. So we go to the doctor, and he gives us an astigmatism correction. So all these lenses are just reinforcing the adaptation we make. So in physical vision therapy, which is what I’ve developed over the years, it’s very much a mind I body approach to dissolving the habits and belief systems that have created the problem. And in this physical therapy, we also include things like light and color, nutrition,
you know, aromatherapy, many things, and I’ve had 1000s of success stories, with people reducing their prescriptions, or completely getting off their contacts and glasses.
That’s amazing. And so have you found that? Who’s easier to treat children or adults? Have you found? Well, it kind of depends on the parents with the children. But I think that children are generally easier because their system has more plasticity. But the way you treat children, in my opinion, is that you examine them based on where they are developmentally. So there’s the chronological age, and there’s the performance age. And my exam is very different because I’m testing how they move what their vestibular system is, like, are they able to have bilateral integration? Can they skip and hop, there’s also a whole body of work called the primitive survival reflexes, which are infant reflexes that actually influence our visual sensory motor development. I work a lot with OTs, and pts. So in helping kids it’s plugging into developmentally where they’ve disconnected. But they can do extremely well in reversing their visual problems because it’s not as reinforced as, as an adult, where, you know, we have years of habits and, and conditioning.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So, so say someone in their 40s that they’re there. I say, it’s not terrible, but they do have that farsightedness. Um, you think that like you’ve seen their vision correct to 2020 using your methods? Yeah. So in a farsighted situation, what we’ve done is we’ve got used to the magnification lens, which makes our our eye muscles less responsive. So you need to interrupt what the side effects of those glasses do. By offering some visual flexibility exercises, which work really well pinhole glasses actually work very well because it’s really re educating you to focus in a more concentrated way. And for most people, you know, the comfort exam, I find that they’re overcorrected. They’re wearing a lens that’s too strong, so immediately you can start reducing their prescription. And then I’ve developed that technique where in the physical therapy, we have people work with opposite lens prescriptions. So in a farsighted person, we give them a nearsighted lens, and we have them do some visual activities. That’s amazing because it reconnects them to that visual responsiveness and after the exercise, they go, oh my goodness, I can see the eye chart and so they have to reinforce that over a few months. But you know, if you have a good diet, great lifestyle, low stress, I mean all these things come into play. You can definitely at the very least reduce your dependency on the glasses or or contacts
Yeah, I the pinhole that’s what they used to use, like decades ago, right? They did. Yeah, so we went away from that because obviously that doesn’t make money right. And well lens
Also the technology advances, you know, now you have a computer that reads the eye. It’s called an auto refractor. And so the technician is getting a readout. And then just giving that to you. In my examination, we try lenses on, we ask people to feel their body feel their eyes, while they look through the lens. So it’s very individualized in the prescription where we’re not using machines. And believe me, I used to have a lot of machines in my, you know, traditional office, but we really look at how the eye brain body responds to a certain prescription. And we go with that, I’ll tell you a quick story. You know, as a cranial therapist, what I would do is I would measure somebody’s eyes, and then I do an hour of cranial sacral on them on wine their system, and then their prescription would be 30 to 50% less when I re examined them, that’s what I would give them and they’d be thrilled because the eyes would be relaxed, but they would see so well. So that’s an example of how related our eyes are to our nervous system, our endocrine system, our stress our diet and everything else.
That’s that’s really cool story and it makes a lot of sense. So what about the opposite? What do you do for nearsighted? Well, being nearsighted I have a first hand experience on what it takes. What’s really cool with nearsightedness is we give people plus lens, a farsighted lens, and we ask them to process mentally and emotionally, what is the blur mean to them.
And in nearsighted people, we have a hyper vigilance that we’ve developed mentally, that we put everything through our eyeball. And so once people start to see the amount of hyper vigilance, they put through their eyes, and they relax into the blur, they can start wearing reduce prescriptions, and over a period of a few months, that reduce prescription becomes their distance prescription, this is what I did. And so you just keep bringing them down, bringing them down, and it works so much better than, say lasik surgery. I know that’s one of the questions you had, because in LASIK surgery, you’re just changing the prescription in the eye, but you’re not changing the programming, the programming is a lot stronger than the LASIK surgery. And this is why the prescription starts to creep back in and people have to go back to glasses or contacts plus, in LASIK surgery, there’s dry, there’s no other intermittent blurriness that occurs. And then the worst thing that you can do is a monovision, where you’re correcting one eye for distance, and one eye for reading that splits the brain. And that’s a very common surgical procedure, both in cataract surgery and in lasik surgery. Don’t do that, because you’re then eliminating depth perception, and you’re going to create more confusion in your brain.
Wow, okay. And I don’t think anyone’s getting informed consent with this stuff. When they’re going in for these operations. They’re just like, Oh, my God, I want to see and everything’s great. And then I had someone told me that they put something toxic into the eye during these LASIK surgeries. Also, do you know anything about that? Well, look, the eye has an ocular microbiome. And whenever you use any kind of either pharmaceutical drug, or you’re using a laser procedure, you’re going to create more scar tissue. Absolutely. There’s going to be toxicity that forms and I want to talk in a few minutes if we have time about the PFA s and the contact lenses, the plastic in that because it’s damning what is coming out now in terms of the toxicity in those contact lenses. So bottom line is, you want to use natural eyedrops, you want to stay away from these surgical procedures and pharmaceuticals because the eyes are like a sponge and they soak it in. And then you get things like floaters and dry eye and glaucoma and they can’t be explained. But it’s the toxicity that we’ve absorbed in our eyes that creates the problem.
That’s so interesting. You say that because I remember I don’t think I’ve ever got floaters until I started wearing contacts, you know, like in high school or something. And, yeah, it definitely makes a lot of sense. You’re clogging it up with just like lymphatics in the body or just like being constipated. So, yes, I think the eyes are kind of ignored. But also we need to have great thought leaders like you. And I loved what you said about like weaning down on the prescription because my mind went to like weaning down on medications. So it’s kind of like the same thing as what you’re saying. Okay, let’s talk about the contact lenses. So that study from that motivation. They tested a bunch of contact lenses. I was floored I had no idea that there was PFA s is in my contact lenses and the brand I use that keeps my eyes really, like really good. They feel like healthy.
They were the worst. And I think what bothers me most about this is when I went to my eye doctor, I went to the daily lenses because they’re like, yeah, they’re better than the two week ones, your eyes are gonna, there’s gonna be more oxygen exchange. They’re a little bit more expensive, but I’m like I want what’s healthiest for my eyes is literally what I sent her. And there’s no informed consent that there’s forever chemicals in my
right eye. So many, so much, so please break it down. Okay, well, this study, as you say, the mono innovation, and it was published environmental health news. And the three most popular companies Alcon Johnson and Johnson and Coopervision had the highest amount of PFA s, they tested with an org organic fluorine marker. And as you say, forever chemicals. I mean, NIH came out and said, you know, this is cancer causing and other serious toxicities. So, you know, people ask me this question all the time, is there a company out there that is PFS free, and there is and it’s a it’s made of silicone hydrogel. It’s actually a company called VSCO vision, and they’re in Taiwan and I can send the link to you.
They’re called Ion EIYN lenses, and they are PFA s free. I’m still looking into Boshin Lhomme. They haven’t responded to me, because they also may have lower PFA s. But it’s amazing that these three most popular companies in the US, they all tested very high for PFA S, which is super toxic. And as I said ocular microbiome, this is cancer causing and other serious things that I see that maybe can’t be explained. But if you’re a contact lens wearer out there, you need to know about PFA s and the detrimental effects it’s having on your eyes.
Yeah, that’s really scary. I wonder if there’s no studies unfortunately, that if this would lead to say things like macular degeneration or glaucoma and increase cataracts, but it Why wouldn’t it right, because you’re messing up the microbiome, you’re increasing oxidative stress by having these chemicals in the eye. So this is really scary. And for those who don’t really know a lot about this, these forever chemicals, so they’re called that because they stay in our environment forever. And this is kind of the DuPont the Teflon, the nonstick firefighters water resistant things. They have PFA SS in them, they were in the groin area of Lululemon pants. So the best thing we could do is try to avoid our exposure with these. And I, yeah, I’m gonna be looking in the silicone, I think I just bought like, a six month or three months contract, and then that came out. And I was like, oh, yeah, but I heard that someone said that one tip that they heard from their someone I forget, but this came up in my inbox is that if you, if you are using the daily contacts that don’t use the juice, don’t use the solution that’s in the container, take the contract out, rinse it out with just plain sailing, that’s good for the eyes. And that will help a little bit, please told me that’s right, because that’s what I’ve been doing. That’s true, you know, a couple of things, you want to, you know, use fresh lenses, so you don’t want to wear them too long. And if you use simple saline and don’t use the solution that comes in, I think that lowers your risk risk quite a bit. And, you know, that’s, that’s about the best you can do. And get off those contacts and get get into the non PFS contacts as soon as you can. And that’s for everybody out there.
Yeah, Dr. Brent, that’s super helpful, because a lot of us I know some people listening out there, maybe these silicone ones are covered by their insurance, or they’re more pricey. I’m going to be switching to these. I’m super excited. And I’m glad you did that research for everyone. Yeah. And I’ll send you the link so that you can distribute it to your listeners.
Yeah, that’s great. And I think that that’s good information. Also, knowing that that’s true. If you wash it out. Don’t use the juice that’s in there. Make sure you’re changing them every day. Don’t try to stretch them out. That’s all very helpful, very helpful. So let’s switch topics a little bit and talk about how to improve conditions like macular degeneration, glaucoma. Dry Eyes is big, and also cataracts. So the eyes have one of the highest metabolic needs of the body and nutritional needs. They are the eyes also have one of the highest concentrations of mitochondria. So let’s mark the mitochondria
because I’ll come back to that. So a lot of these eye diseases start occurring because as you said a few minutes ago, oxidative stress, inflammation. And so when there’s a starvation in the tissue of the eyes, and the retina has one of the highest metabolic needs of the body, the macula has the highest metabolic needs of the retina. There isn’t a direct blood supply that you know, supports the macula, the lens of the eye, the cornea, so they’re highly susceptible to these diseases that start happening. And there’s so many things that you can do proactively. Number one for macular degeneration, it’s those carotenoids, lutein and zeaxanthin.
milligrams wise about 60 milligrams of lutein, four to six milligrams of Xanthine. Those are the plant based prot noids, and then about four to six of the Astra Xanth and that’s the marine carotenoid, that’s essential for macular health. And then you can add things like bilberry, which is an herb that helps improve the circulation Ginko and low dosages can be helpful, obviously, vitamin A, and how well you absorb those fat soluble vitamins. So what’s the health of your liver gallbladder and if there’s the bile healthy, so you’re absorbing those fat soluble with cataracts, that’s again oxidative stress, we have to bring in the sugar conversation because both with cataracts and floaters there’s a glycation process where the glucose molecule in the blood attaches itself to either the protein molecule in the lens or the vitreous. And this creates the pathologies that we see. And also just general oxidative stress. So you need to boost your glutathione and vitamin C, two essential ingredients to slow down the progression and in some cases, you can reverse early stage cataracts for dry, you’ve got to look at, you know, for women, estrogen levels, thyroid health, adrenal health, and just the inflammation of the eyelids. Because if you’re not producing enough of the proper tears, the tears evaporate too quickly. And then we bring in the screens, blue light exposure dries the eyes out even faster. So aside from these nutrients, like good fats and oils, there’s a new treatment on the horizon called red light therapy, you’ve probably heard of it. There was a study done by Dr. Glen Jeffery in the UK is an ophthalmologist. And he found that treating people with red light three minutes in the morning for 12 weeks, increased their visual acuity by 22%. These are folks that have macular degeneration and another condition called drusen, which have fatty deposits that accumulate in the retina. So I’ve developed read exercise glasses that people are using 670 nanometers is the the exact frequency. So red light stimulates the mitochondria, which increases ATP reduces the reactive oxygen species. And so it starts to reverse these problems. Last glaucoma, this is a problem with the the imbalance of the fluid in the eyes. Again, you want to stay away from the pharmaceutical drugs and the laser surgery. But there are herbs that you can use cranial sacral,
acupuncture, and there’s so many great things that we have developed in our team to help people reverse and improve their vision, even as they get older. And that’s what’s super exciting. I love seeing that. I get testimonials every day from people that are healing their cataracts, reversing macular degeneration, and so on and so forth. So just like any other part of the body, you can also heal your eyes.
That’s amazing. And I love how you said that the gallbladder and liver need to be functioning properly to absorb the fat soluble molecules. And I think that goes with anything we need to make sure our gut health is functioning. Because some people will take all the supplements it’s not working. It’s because their their gut health. They have a big dysbiosis they’re not absorbing it’s leaky. So the red light now are you talking or do they have to be specific glasses or someone has a red light? Because I feel like there’s a lot of controversy on that because you know, the red lights that I have one that I got during my pregnancy because I wanted to just have it on my face for physicians.
And I’ll use it now for back pain. You know, I use it for a lot of things. But there’s a lot of controversy. I feel like should you wear goggles? Can you look at the red light? Do you not look at the red light but now you’re saying that a little dose of red light in the eyes will stimulate the mitochondria as it does in other parts of the body. Yeah, so in looking at the you know, the light devices out there, they’re LED lights and they’re way too bright for the eyes. And so you need to protect your
eyes when you’re exposing yourself to the big light box. But when I looked at Dr. Jeffery study, basically, as long as you’re using that frequency, the key is you don’t need a bright light source. In fact, my patients, a lot of them are light sensitive. So what we recommend is you pick the light source where you feel most comfortable, you can look out a window, you can go outside, you can have a lamp on, because my patients are elderly, and they can’t handle that brightness, it creates a blink reflex, so you’re going to recoil from being uh, you know, open to receiving it. But clearly, the red light at the proper illumination has a positive effect on the mitochondria. And there are a number of studies that prove that I mean, we see it systemically because it reduces inflammation, as you say, and it helps the collagen level, and so on and so forth. So what I’ve developed is a way to work with a specific frequency that people get to regulate the brightness of it, so they can handle it. And again, the study is pretty bulletproof. And there are other research studies out there on the eyes that help people with wet macular degeneration with drusen with dry eye. Even they’re starting to look at things like glaucoma. And so I think it’s valid, I think you just need to find the right light source and the right you know, frequency, and you’re good to go. It definitely is beneficial without side effects.
That’s great to hear. Now, let’s talk about diets. What are some general dietary principles for improving vision? If people listening out there and they’re like, I want to start improving my vision or they might have a loved one that is struggling? Well, I think it starts like what you say with the gut, and I love your your content, because people their mess around their digestion. But generally speaking, the rainbow diet of vegetables, the reds, the oranges, those are great for the macula, yellow, you know, and then the greens, leafy greens are all fabulous. I love berries, you know, that is great for your retina, and healthy fats and oils, low carb, low sugar. And then you know, if you’ve got things like diabetic retinopathy, or you know, a very serious retina condition, I would say work with a functional medicine doctor, somebody like yourself, I don’t know, if you want to do more keto or intermittent fasting, we’ve had some good success with some of those more serious issues. But try not to eat processed foods. And you know, even if you’re going to do dairy, make sure it’s really high quality grass fed meat, you know, organic chicken eggs are a great source of of eye health. Avocados are another great source. So, you know, that’s the general guideline
in improving your vision by eating that way.
Yeah, and you describe so many different things to eat. So I think when people think about eating healthier, decreasing inflammation, or, you know, just getting their gut healthy, they think of what we’re taking away. The you just said tons of beautiful foods. So I think that that is a good way to look at it. You could eat the rainbow, you can eat your eggs, you can eat avocado, so it’s kind of exciting, you know, and let’s talk about something else. That’s kind of cool that you there, there’s a way that essential oils can improve vision. I’m excited to hear this one. Well, you know, I’m trained as an aroma therapist, and I’m I’m a little different than some of them where they say never put essential oils on your skin. Well, you know, again, I do lots of trainings to help people you know, learn how to use carrier oils. But there are three essential oils that I’ve used that improve peripheral vision and eye circulation. The first is called fennel or sweet fennel, the second is carrot seed obvious and the third is frankincense. And we actually with the carrier oil, you can put them here and you layer them so you would do you know fennel first and then carrot seed and then frankincense and you will notice immediately this opening of your peripheral vision it wicks in through the eyes. Now it can be a little irritating, so you use a hobo oil or, you know really high quality or you put it on the soles of your feet. So that’s that’s one technique another as we like to use the Helichrysum hydrosol where we spray it around the eyes with the eyes closed Helichrysum is so healing for the skin, but it’s great if you’ve got dry or Meibomian gland
and dysfunction. And so those are some simple ways that we use essential oils. And again, we do lots of teaching, we do test patches to make sure the oils don’t burn. And, again, there’s lots of ways that you can work with them. So you’re protecting yourself, but man, they are good stuff. They are Shamans in a bottle, especially if you use a high quality company.
That is so cool. I love those tips. Now, how does color and light therapy improve vision? So I actually my sons did a light box. I don’t know if this is the same thing you do. But they did like Like Box therapy to, to improve like to calm the brain down. And they were doing like tracking stuff. So I know it, it really works. Yeah, so So yeah, the retina, the retina is made up of about 130 million photoreceptors. Their job is to capture the light converted to an electrical impulse, send it to the brain. But based on stress, trauma and toxicity, some of those retina cells begin to lose their ability to process light, they get desensitized, and then when you break the natural light down into different frequencies, like the rainbow of colors, each color can affect the retina differently. And so the goal is to figure out, okay, what, what’s shutting down what part of the retina, and then you can apply how people look at different frequencies, you know, say 10 minutes a day for a couple of weeks. And you’ll start to notice the peripheral vision opens up, there’s more mental and emotional relaxation, obviously, part of the blood flow that runs through the eyes is going to get that light. So that’s going to pass out through the whole body. And so light is a Food and Natural light is so important. There’s studies that show that getting morning natural light, you reduce your myopia this has been shown in kids. So we know that natural sunlight is important as long as we do it in moderation. And, you know, I use light therapeutically as a way to reset the body reset the vision. And whether you’re doing natural full spectrum lighting, or you can break the colors down into you know different frequencies. It’s pretty amazing a medicine that again, the FDA cannot govern or, or regulate.
Yeah, good point, good point, light and natural light in the sun. It’s free. It’s true. That’s that’s not talked about, let’s say, well, let’s let’s make you afraid of it and avoid it. And isolate from it. When you know, we all have our own health sovereignty, and we know what we need. So getting out there, maybe you need a hat, maybe you need, you know, to protect yourself, your light skin. But the studies show natural full spectrum light is really helpful for our health and wellness.
It feels good. It’s in Northwest Ohio. It’s not it’s not always sunny here. But what it is everyone’s mood related. And it feels good. So well. Well, let’s let’s talk about you and where you’re at in this beautiful office that you’re sitting in. It’s not a fake background. It’s
it’s not a fake background. Now, this is my geodome you know, I closed my traditional office about 10 years ago. And we live outside of Santa Fe. And so we built the studio so that I it’s a healing space. So I still see some patients, but we’d have a really big online presence. And I do a lot of social media posting, podcasting. And we’re getting ready to do a membership subscription service for our more advanced followers, and have an e commerce Store develop some really great products, natural eye drops and, and things like that. So having a lot of fun with it and taking the profession to a new level, even if my colleagues are a little slow and following me but it’s just like you you know, we’re blazing a trail. And the consumer is responding. That’s the most important thing.
Yeah, I just I love everything you spoke about. It’s so cool. Like I think I would faint if I went into my dog. Oh my goodness. Oh, geez. Yeah. Well, so even just reducing your prescription you know, is is really foreign to them. Yeah.
Right. But I think the more we get the word out and start the conversation about these things, people will start asking for it. You know, why don’t you know about this and I think next time I’m gonna go to the eye doctor. I’m gonna be like, do you know that there’s forever
practicing informed consent on this but yeah, it’s it’s a Wild West.
Without air so How can everyone listening? Find you? You said you have a website, your Instagram handle, can you please share that? Yeah, so that’s Sam Berne OD that’s my instagram handle. Or you can just go to the website Drsamberne.com
You can email us at [email protected] your questions. I do my best to try to answer everybody’s questions without treating them. Because people like to get treated through email, which I’m not able to do. And yeah, come in come and find me somewhere and we can have a conversation and I appreciate that
thank you for listening. I hope you learned something from the EyeClarity podcast show today. If you enjoyed the episode, make sure to subscribe on iTunes or Spotify and leave a review. See you here next time.
