LessWrong posts by zvi

“The Most Forbidden Technique” by Zvi


Listen Later

The Most Forbidden Technique is training an AI using interpretability techniques.

An AI produces a final output [X] via some method [M]. You can analyze [M] using technique [T], to learn what the AI is up to. You could train on that. Never do that.

You train on [X]. Only [X]. Never [M], never [T].

Why? Because [T] is how you figure out when the model is misbehaving.

If you train on [T], you are training the AI to obfuscate its thinking, and defeat [T]. You will rapidly lose your ability to know what is going on, in exactly the ways you most need to know what is going on.

Those bits of optimization pressure from [T] are precious. Use them wisely.

Table of Contents

  1. New Paper Warns Against the Most Forbidden Technique.
  2. Reward Hacking Is The Default.
  3. Using [...]
  4. ---

    Outline:

    (00:57) New Paper Warns Against the Most Forbidden Technique

    (06:52) Reward Hacking Is The Default

    (09:25) Using CoT to Detect Reward Hacking Is Most Forbidden Technique

    (11:49) Not Using the Most Forbidden Technique Is Harder Than It Looks

    (14:10) It's You, It's Also the Incentives

    (17:41) The Most Forbidden Technique Quickly Backfires

    (18:58) Focus Only On What Matters

    (19:33) Is There a Better Way?

    (21:34) What Might We Do Next?

    ---

    First published:

    March 12th, 2025

    Source:

    https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/mpmsK8KKysgSKDm2T/the-most-forbidden-technique

    ---

    Narrated by TYPE III AUDIO.

    ---

    Images from the article:

    Apple Podcasts and Spotify do not show images in the episode description. Try Pocket Casts, or another podcast app.

    ...more
    View all episodesView all episodes
    Download on the App Store

    LessWrong posts by zviBy zvi

    • 5
    • 5
    • 5
    • 5
    • 5

    5

    2 ratings


    More shows like LessWrong posts by zvi

    View all
    Making Sense with Sam Harris by Sam Harris

    Making Sense with Sam Harris

    26,319 Listeners

    Conversations with Tyler by Mercatus Center at George Mason University

    Conversations with Tyler

    2,452 Listeners

    The a16z Show by Andreessen Horowitz

    The a16z Show

    1,090 Listeners

    Future of Life Institute Podcast by Future of Life Institute

    Future of Life Institute Podcast

    108 Listeners

    ChinaTalk by Jordan Schneider

    ChinaTalk

    288 Listeners

    Politix by Politix

    Politix

    93 Listeners

    Dwarkesh Podcast by Dwarkesh Patel

    Dwarkesh Podcast

    514 Listeners

    Hard Fork by The New York Times

    Hard Fork

    5,509 Listeners

    Clearer Thinking with Spencer Greenberg by Spencer Greenberg

    Clearer Thinking with Spencer Greenberg

    138 Listeners

    LessWrong (Curated & Popular) by LessWrong

    LessWrong (Curated & Popular)

    13 Listeners

    No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups by Conviction

    No Priors: Artificial Intelligence | Technology | Startups

    131 Listeners

    "Econ 102" with Noah Smith and Erik Torenberg by Turpentine

    "Econ 102" with Noah Smith and Erik Torenberg

    151 Listeners

    BG2Pod with Brad Gerstner and Bill Gurley by BG2Pod

    BG2Pod with Brad Gerstner and Bill Gurley

    466 Listeners

    LessWrong (30+ Karma) by LessWrong

    LessWrong (30+ Karma)

    0 Listeners

    Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11) by Patrick McKenzie

    Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11)

    134 Listeners