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You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interviewed Hayden Ahlbrandt, a certified Synergetic Play Therapist. Hayden shares some really helpful thoughts and strategies on both how we can prevent meltdowns and how best to support our child—and ourselves—once we find ourselves with a meltdown on our hands. We focus on connection, co-regulation, mindfulness, and creating safety.

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We talk about:

* 00:00 – Sarah introduces Hayden Ahlbrandt, certified Synergetic Play Therapist. Overview of meltdowns, regulation, and co-regulation

* 05:25 – Viewing behavior through a nervous system lens

* 10:30 – Understanding Meltdowns Through the “Pop Bottle” Analogy

* 12:00 – Why some days kids can handle more than others

* 1:00 – “Regulation Is Connection to Self” - Helping kids discover what naturally regulates them

* 20:00 – Why Regulation Tools Need to be Practiced Outside Meltdowns

* 22:00 – Preventing Meltdowns

* 24:00 – The Three Rs: Regulate, Relate, Reason

* 30:00 – Mindfulness and Co-Regulation

* 32:30 – The Parent’s Nervous System

* 36:00 – Aggression During Meltdowns

* 38:30 – Making the Environment Feel Safer

* 42:00 – Parenting Advice Hayden Wishes He’d Known Earlier

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Hayden’s website

* Hayden’s IG @lowtideplaytherapist

* Synergetic Play Therapy Institute

* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Evelyn & Bobbie bras

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Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast.

Today’s guest is Hayden Ahlbrandt. Hayden is a certified Synergetic Play Therapist who lights up at any opportunity to teach, educate, and support adults in how they can best support the children in their lives.

He specializes in meltdowns, and that’s what we’re going to be talking about today. Hayden shares some really helpful thoughts and strategies on both how we can prevent meltdowns and how best to support our child—and ourselves—once we find ourselves with a meltdown on our hands.

I think you’re going to find this episode really useful, no matter how old your child is. One thing I really appreciate is that Hayden sees meltdowns through the lens of the nervous system and in terms of regulation, dysregulation, and co-regulation.

I’m definitely going to be thinking about a phrase he shared: “Regulation is connection to self.”

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Links are in the show notes.

Okay, let’s meet Hayden.

Sarah: Hi, Hayden. Welcome to the podcast.

Hayden: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here.

Sarah: Yeah, I’m excited to have you. I found you on Instagram, and I love all the reels that you make. I love your energy and how you show up for parents so they can show up for their kids. So I’m really glad to have you on the podcast.

Hayden: I appreciate that.

Sarah: Tell us about who you are and what you do.

Hayden: Yeah. Well, obviously, my name’s Hayden.

I’m a certified Synergetic Play Therapist, and I have my own play therapy practice. Like you mentioned, my Instagram has become something I’ve had a lot of fun doing. It’s really given me an avenue to work with adults and support them in how we support kids.

So I kind of have a two-pronged approach right now. I work with kids in my play therapy practice, but I also do a lot of speaking, presenting, workshops, and that kind of thing—giving parents the tools from the training I have so they can better support kids.

My specialization has really become focused on big behaviors and meltdowns. I also work with a lot of anxiety.

So that’s the quick elevator speech.

Sarah: Yeah, it makes sense because you have the kids for maybe an hour a week—or whatever your typical amount is—but then they’re off with their parents for all of the rest of the days and hours of the week.

If parents don’t know how to support them during that time, it probably makes your job not work as well, right?

Hayden: Yeah, definitely.

I always explain it as wraparound support. I think we can do so much in our time together and in our work during sessions, but things are just going to move so much quicker when parents are involved.

Ultimately, that’s how I view my work as a play therapist. We’re not trying to make drastic changes or fix things. We’re trying to help the child feel better because, typically, when they’re coming in, it’s because something in their world feels really big, really hard, or really challenging, and that’s coming out as behaviors.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: I kind of view it that way. We’re trying to help the child feel better, which is going to help the whole family system feel better.

Typically, with the kinds of things I mentioned—if a child is having really big, intense meltdowns that are above and beyond what’s developmentally appropriate—it can be really hard on the entire family system: siblings, parents, whoever it might be.

I talk about it as creating as much wraparound support as possible because it’s going to help the child work through whatever feels clogged for them in that moment.

Sarah: What’s a Synergetic Play Therapist?

Hayden: Yeah. Synergetic Play Therapy is a modality, an approach—a specific type of play therapy.

The way I typically explain it is that we’re really working through the lens of nervous system regulation.

That’s one of the core tenets of Synergetic Play Therapy: viewing the behaviors we’re seeing as symptoms of nervous system activation.

So when we’re talking about anxiety, meltdowns, or big behaviors, we’re viewing those as symptoms that the nervous system is activating.

Sarah: Yeah, that’s really aligned with the work that I do, too, teaching parents about their kids’ big behaviors.

You mentioned before we started recording that your oldest child is six. Were you a play therapist before you had kids?

Hayden: Yes, briefly.

I actually started out in schools. I was working as an elementary school counselor when I finished my graduate program in counseling.

The opportunity to explore Synergetic Play Therapy kind of fell into my lap while I was doing that.

There’s now something called the Synergetic Education Institute, and their whole approach is bringing neuroscience and nervous system understanding into school settings.

We were one of what I would call the pilot programs for that. As they were figuring out what worked, what didn’t work, and how they wanted to implement it, we started bringing these ideas into our school setting to change the school culture and ask, “How do we support the behaviors we’re seeing?”

In my school counseling role, I was given the opportunity to start learning more about this.

As I did, I thought, This is magic. I love doing this.

Sarah: That’s so cool.

Hayden: Talk about fate.

So it was one of those things where I liked working in schools, but doing this in a private practice setting and working one-on-one with a child felt like what I was meant to do.

I just loved it.

I still enjoy the adult piece. I mentioned that earlier. I like supporting educators, and that’s something I bring into my Instagram content sometimes—helping classroom teachers think about how to bring these ideas into the school setting.

Ultimately, though, I found that I really enjoy being in the role of working one-on-one with the child.

That’s what my school opportunity allowed me to do, and it’s how I got to where I am now and what I feel I specialize in.

I was being called in to support behaviors, so I really learned how to implement this one-on-one while supporting a child.

I always say I have the utmost admiration for teachers who are trying to learn this, do this, and implement this with 25 or 30 kids in a classroom.

Sarah: Seriously.

Hayden: That is a whole different beast than sitting one-on-one with a child and co-regulating.

Sarah: It’s so needed, though.

I find, through the clients I work with, that when kids are having trouble at school, most teachers and administrators are not very aware of the nervous system and how that factors into behavior.

So it’s great that there are people out there trying to bring that understanding into schools.

Just as an aside, do you have any resources for parents who are listening and want their school to be more nervous-system informed? Do you have any resources we could share in the show notes?

Hayden: Yeah.

My free resources page has some templates and tools that start creating that understanding.

Honestly, I think my Instagram is a great place to start because what I try to do there is take these big topics and make them really simple. We’re trying to fit them into one-minute videos, so my goal is to give people a little bit of the understanding in a really accessible way.

Another resource is the Synergetic Education Institute.

Sarah: Great.

Hayden: That’s their entire focus: bringing this into districts and schools. I’m always happy to share them as a resource because that’s exactly what they’re doing.

Sarah: Perfect. We’ll share those in the show notes.

Okay, so you’ve mentioned meltdowns a couple of times and that a lot of your work centers around helping parents and kids when meltdowns and big behaviors are an issue. One of the reels I saw when I was preparing for this interview was the one where you were using the pop bottle analogy. And I think some people may have heard about that, but maybe you could explain the pop bottle analogy and how that relates to meltdowns.

Then we’ll talk about what we can do preventively. What I always say to parents is that when you have meltdowns, there’s what you do in the moment, but there’s also everything that was leading up to the moment.

You can be preventative about meltdowns, and sometimes that really helps a lot. Other times, you try, but you still find yourself in that meltdown space.

What I’d like to get from you today is both the preventative piece and the in-the-moment piece.

But back to the pop bottle. Maybe you could explain that analogy and then talk about how it factors into thinking about prevention.

Hayden: Yeah, definitely.

The one you’re referring to, I’ve previously explained to families I work with as almost like a pressure gauge.

Things are building and building, and the pop bottle came to mind because if you’re shaking up a bottle of pop and you open it all at once, it’s going to explode everywhere.

The picture I was trying to create is: can we open it a little bit and close it, then open it a little bit and close it? Can we let a little bit of steam off throughout the course of the day?

Going back to the pressure gauge analogy, how do we let a little bit off so it’s not ready to explode at any given moment?

That’s how I think about the preventative side. How do we bring in little bits of regulation throughout the day so we can let off some of that steam?

I think there are a couple of ideas that help this make sense. One is the concept of the window of tolerance. The window of tolerance is basically how much stress your nervous system can tolerate before you become dysregulated.

It’s that same idea: as the pressure builds, that window gets smaller and smaller.

Sarah: And if I could just jump in, bringing that back to the pop bottle analogy: if you imagine your child as a bottle of pop, some kids can take 25 shakes of the bottle and not have much pressure build up, while other kids might only take one or two shakes before the pressure starts building.

That’s the window of tolerance, right? How many stressors can your nervous system deal with before you move outside that window of tolerance?

Hayden: Exactly. And the thing I always add when I’m talking to people about this is that our window of tolerance is not static. Some days I might be able to handle 20 shakes. Other days it might be one or two. It’s going to depend on things like whether I’m hungry. We’ve all heard the term hangry, right? You’re quicker to frustration if your body is hungry. Or tired. Having little kids, right? The nights I sleep less—

Sarah: Yeah.

Hayden: —I’m just easier to frustrate.

Sarah: Totally.

Hayden: So it’s this idea that it’s not static. It’s not like your child operates at one fixed level.

They may have a general baseline, but there are things that will widen or narrow that window. Maybe I did something today that I’m really proud of, and that widens my window. I can take on a little bit more because I’m feeling good about myself.

Or maybe I skipped breakfast and I’m a little hangry, so I’m quicker to frustration. It’s both-and.

The other piece I was going to tie in here is the way I’ve come to think about regulation, which really comes from my training in Synergetic Play Therapy. Lisa Dion, who created this modality, explains regulation as connection to self.

The way I like to explain that is this: In adult language, we’ve all heard people say, “I was so mad I blacked out,” or, “I was so mad I was seeing red.”

The idea is that the emotion overwhelmed you and you kind of disconnected from yourself.

When we think about regulation, it’s not just take a deep breath. Sometimes that might be what I need in the moment, but sometimes it isn’t what helps me come back to myself when things feel really big or overwhelming.

One of the things I like to do when I’m working with families is figure out how their child naturally regulates already. Do they like proprioceptive input? Do they like deep pressure? Do they like to jump and crash into things?

Sarah: Can you explain proprioceptive input?

Hayden: Yeah. Really, it’s our sensory system’s way of figuring out where our body is in space. The examples I just mentioned are ways kids get proprioceptive input. That deep pressure gives the sensation of, My body is right here. Jumping and crashing into things does the same thing.

A lot of times, parents describe their kids as being like a bull in a china shop. They’re bumping into things and seem to have a hard time figuring out where their body is in space. Whenever I talk about this, I always say that my understanding of it really comes more from the occupational therapy world. I know enough to talk about it, but it’s not my primary area of expertise.

What I focus on is asking: if we see that’s the way our child regulates, how do we intentionally bring more of it in? For adults, when I think about regulating myself, sometimes I feel like I need to give myself a little massage, or rub my head, or apply some pressure. We all do that thing where we go, ugh, or rub our hands against our cheeks when we’re overwhelmed.

That’s proprioceptive input. Sometimes that kind of input is really regulating.

Other examples might be movement or heavy work—pushing and pulling activities. If we see our kids doing some of these things instinctively or intuitively, how do we meet that and bring it into those moments so it becomes a regulatory tool? All of that comes back to the idea that if we can give children little bits of regulation throughout the course of the day, it’s not a magic fix, but it lets a little steam out of the pop bottle.

The goal is to create more capacity and help widen that window of tolerance so they aren’t right on the edge of exploding all the time. I always like to add that caveat: it’s not the magic fix.

Doing these things doesn’t mean there will never be another meltdown. What I really try to teach adults is: how do we help children have these experiences and learn how to do these things? Because what we’re really doing is laying the groundwork for them to eventually be able to do these things on their own.

Above all else, I don’t want parents to think they’re failing if their child is still having meltdowns. It doesn’t mean it’s not working. We’re helping them discover what helps them in those moments so they build templates they can keep returning to over and over again.

Sarah: What are some other things that parents might notice their kids do that, after listening to this conversation, they might think, Ah, that’s my child instinctively knowing what regulates them?

I’m thinking of my nine-year-old niece. She finds jumping very regulating, so she uses a trampoline and jump rope. My sister eventually realized, “Oh, she seems a lot calmer after she’s been doing those things.”

What are some other things parents might notice that are instinctively regulating?

Hayden: Going back to the idea that regulation is connection to self, I’ve come to talk about it as something that can almost be anything.

What do you notice your child doing that seems to genuinely help them? The examples you mentioned are great ones. Jumping. Spinning. Those are common.

As you were talking, I was thinking back to a training I did with Lisa Dion.

She talked about these umbrella categories—not necessarily saying they are regulation, but that they can help us generate ideas. One category was stillness. Like you mentioned: lying down, being quiet, reading a book.

Another category was movement, which is the opposite end of the spectrum—jumping, spinning, stomping. Then there’s the proprioceptive input we talked about before: deep pressure, giving yourself a massage.

And the last one was breath. Breathwork can absolutely be a fantastic tool.

But I think we often get sucked into this idea that here’s a regulation strategy—use it and it’ll help.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: But when we think about our own experience, I think we often approach it from the mindset of, Here’s a strategy to give my kid, and they’ll use it and feel better. I think about my own experience. Through this work, I’ve realized how anxious I was as a kid, so working on my anxiety has been a long process for me. And when I’m feeling anxious, doing a breathing exercise for 10 seconds doesn’t make the anxiety disappear. It might not be what I need in that moment. I might need to get up and burn some energy. I might need to go for a run.

The real question is: what do I need in that moment to help move that energy and help me come back to myself?

Sarah: Right. And as you point out, if regulation is connection to self, it’s different for everybody. I think you’re right that the thing parents hear most often is, “Just take a deep breath.” There are all these strategies—pretend you’re blowing on hot chocolate and all of that. Maybe that works for some kids, but for other kids it won’t help at all.

Hayden: Definitely. And to build on that, before I learned a lot of this—and what I hear from parents all the time—is: “My kid won’t do any of these strategies.”

Even if we have a toolbox and say, “Here’s 20 ideas, let’s figure out which one works,” their child won’t do any of them in the moment. Because they’re dysregulated.

Absolutely. You’re right that Part 3 drifted back into a transcript layout with too many short paragraphs.

Here’s the same section in the publishing-ready style you’ve asked for: bold speaker names, no content removed, no summarizing, but with natural paragraphs and cleaner flow.

Sarah: Yeah.

Hayden: And I think we can get into all the science-y reasons why that makes sense, but the bigger picture is this: what I try to do on my Instagram is ask, How can we make this fun and playful? How can we make it something kids actually want to do?

You mentioned things like blowing on hot chocolate. One of the things I really try to do is help people build a toolbox of ways to make regulation fun and playful. Thinking about our own adult experience, if I’m frustrated and my partner comes in and tells me, “Calm down,” or, “Take a deep breath,” my response is probably going to be, “Absolutely not.” It just makes me more frustrated.

So how do we make it a fun and playful invitation rather than saying, “I’m telling you to do this because I’m noticing you’re upset”?

Some of those breathing activities can become games. One of the things I talk about is practicing these things in regulated moments so that when your child is dysregulated and you bring them in, they think, Oh, I know what’s happening. We play this all the time.

Again, none of this means it’s going to work every single time, but it gives us—

Sarah: I just want to highlight what you said because I think it’s really important. If you’re only using these strategies when your child is dysregulated, they’re going to develop a negative association with them. Partly, I think they’ll feel manipulated. They’ll think, Oh, my parent is just trying to get me to calm down.

And they’ll be resistant because they associate those strategies with negative feelings and experiences. So I love that you’re saying to do these regulating things at other times too and make them positive experiences that you can draw on later rather than just tools you pull out to end a meltdown.

Hayden: Definitely.

And just to tie in some of the science behind it, when we think about this from a nervous system lens, dysregulation is our body sounding the alarm bells and saying, There’s something happening here that requires activation.

When we’re talking about meltdowns, that’s typically the nervous system escalating into a fight-or-flight response. If we think about fight-or-flight biologically, its primary goal is to keep us alive. That’s why we move into that state.

So if we’re trying to get our child to do anything in that moment, it makes sense that we’d get an immediate response of, I’m not trusting anything right now because my goal is survival.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: When we practice these things during regulated moments—when they’re not in those big emotional states—it becomes familiar. It’s not, I’ve never tried that before. I don’t know if it’ll work. It’s, Oh, we do that all the time. That’s fun. That’s familiar. I know that.

Again, it doesn’t mean they’re necessarily going to jump right into it, but it gives us a much better chance than saying, “Hey, here’s this thing we’ve never done before. I know your body is biologically trying to stay alive right now, but trust me and try it.”

Because the biological response would be, “Absolutely not.”

Sarah: Right. That makes sense.

We’ve drifted a little into what to do in the moment of a meltdown, which is great, but is there anything else you wanted to add about prevention? You mentioned making sure resources are high—things like hunger, tiredness, and those sorts of factors. You talked about opening the pressure valve throughout the day with regulating activities.

Is there anything else you’ve noticed that helps when a child is having a lot of meltdowns?

Hayden: Yeah. I think those are some of the biggest things.

My whole approach is rooted in connection as well. A lot of times, parents tell me that sometimes they can catch it—they can see the signs that a meltdown is coming—and other times it feels like things go from zero to 100.

If we’re able to notice those signs that things are building, that our child seems more on edge or more hypervigilant, that becomes a great time to bring in some of these strategies. But tying it back to what we’ve already talked about, I want to do that from a place of connection.

It’s, Hey, I’m right here with you. Let’s do this together.

Not, Here’s a strategy. Go do it by yourself.

Because connection itself is incredibly regulating.

Sarah: So the whole co-regulation piece.

Hayden: Exactly. It’s kind of a both-and situation. We can use connection before the meltdown, and we can use it as we’re moving into one.

I wanted to bring that in because connection itself can be a regulatory tool. And it also ties into your next question.

Sarah: What about empathy? You were talking a lot about connection, and to me they go hand in hand. Do you find yourself talking about empathy very much with parents?

Hayden: Yes. Typically, we talk about it more in the moment, although it fits into both areas.

One of the reasons we focus on it during the moment is because I teach parents about Bruce Perry’s Three Rs: Regulate, Relate, Reason.

I really like this framework because it helps us understand where a child is in their brain and how we should meet them there.

If they’re operating from their brainstem—the lowest, survival-oriented part of the brain—we meet them with regulation.

Sarah: That’s the fight-or-flight part.

Hayden: Typically, yes.

Then the next level up is the limbic system, which is our emotional control center.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: There we meet them through relating, or what parents often hear called validation.

Then, when they’re operating from the cortex—the highest part of the brain—we can reason with them.

The reason I’m bringing this up is that empathy really lives in that relating stage. That’s where we’re saying, I’m in this with you. This feels frustrating. This feels overwhelming. This feels scary.

That’s where empathy naturally fits.

So if I’m noticing my child starting to become emotional and I sense that we’re moving toward a bigger meltdown, that’s a great opportunity to step into that relating and validating stage and connect empathetically.

Sarah: Okay, nice. So reason is when they’re not really losing it yet? That’s when we might explain why they can’t climb the bookshelf or something like that?

Hayden: Right. Reasoning is when they’re logical and rational.

Sarah: Thinking clearly.

Hayden: Exactly.

That’s when logical conversations make sense.

One question I get a lot is, “How do I know where my child is?” And the truth is, you probably don’t always know. It’s a bit of feeling out the situation.

You might notice that you’re trying to be logical and rational, but it’s not landing. That’s your clue.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: At that point, we drop down a level and try validating or relating. Or maybe we’re supporting a big meltdown and we’re regulating, and then we try saying, I get it. This feels really frustrating, and it only gets bigger.

Okay, that didn’t land. Let’s drop back down and spend more time regulating.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: It’s an ebb and flow. We’re trying things and seeing what works.

Sarah: I love that framework. It’s really helpful to think about what to do when something isn’t landing.

I saw you talking about that on Instagram, and it reminded me of Larry Cohen’s work. In The Opposite of Worry, he says that if reassurance doesn’t work within 20 seconds, it’s not going to work. When a child is anxious, they’re not operating from the reasoning part of their brain.

And I think the same thing probably applies here. If your child is moving into a meltdown and your explanation doesn’t work within 20 seconds, it’s probably not going to work.

Hayden: Definitely. You can talk until you’re blue in the face, but if it’s not landing, it’s not suddenly going to start landing.

And it gives us the opposite lesson too. When we’re supporting a meltdown, we so often want to fix it. We want to move right into being logical and rational. Or sometimes we jump to consequences. We’re giving consequences in the middle of the meltdown.

None of that is going to land.

Working in schools, I saw this all the time. “You’ll have to finish your homework at home,” or taking away recess. The child doesn’t care because they’re not operating from the part of the brain that cares about those things in that moment.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: All of those conversations—making amends, talking about what happened, figuring out solutions—can absolutely happen. But they need to happen when the brain is ready for them.

Sarah: Right. Not during the meltdown.

Hayden: Exactly.

Sarah: What else do you want parents to know about those meltdown moments?

Hayden: My approach is very co-regulatory. The Three Rs are a great foundation because they help us understand that first step of regulation, then relating, then reasoning.

There are lots of things we can do within that framework.

One thing I hear from parents all the time is, “So am I just supposed to sit here with my child for an hour while they melt down? I can only keep my cool for so long.”

And my response is: I totally get that. That’s valid.

Co-regulation doesn’t mean sitting there forever doing nothing. Yes, a big part of our goal is allowing them to have their emotional experience rather than shutting it down. But another big part of our goal is teaching them how to regulate when things feel overwhelming.

So I like to bring in little invitations. They’re probably not going to do exactly what I tell them to do, but I can offer invitations back to themselves.

One of my favorite ways to do that is mindfulness.

And when I say mindfulness, I don’t necessarily mean trying to get my child to do something. Instead, I’m having a mindful experience myself and offering it as a gentle invitation.

For example, if we’re sitting together and I’m regulating myself, I might say, “Oh, there’s a squirrel in the tree outside.”

It’s just an observation. I’m not telling them they have to look.

But as they start moving up through the brain and through that Three Rs framework, sometimes they’ll suddenly say, “Oh, I want to see the squirrel.”

Or I might notice, “The air from the fan feels cool on my face.”

It’s just an observation. I’m not directing them. I’m simply staying present and offering little invitations back into the present moment.

Sometimes they don’t care. Sometimes it even escalates them. But I’m making those observations for myself first.

As I’m keeping myself regulated, I’m giving them opportunities to join me in the present moment.

Going back to regulation as connection to self, they’re disconnected from themselves in those moments. They’re overwhelmed by emotion.

So the goal of mindfulness is to gently invite them back into the present moment with me. If you’re in the present moment, you’re here. You’re noticing what’s around you.

That’s why I like to bring mindfulness into these conversations. Because no, you don’t have to sit there doing nothing while waiting for it to end. There are things we can do to help bring our children back to the present moment.

First, by keeping ourselves regulated. If I’m staying mindful and present, it keeps me from losing myself.

Second, it teaches them what it looks like to come back when things feel overwhelming.

Sarah: That makes a lot of sense.

What do you find gets in the way of parents being able to do that? Are there common stories they’re telling themselves? Fears they have?

In my work, I hear things like, If they’re like this at five, what are they going to be like at fifteen? Or, Nobody else’s kid acts like this.

Things like that.

Hayden: Absolutely.

My answer to both of those is usually the same: our own dysregulation.

I talk about this from the theoretical soapbox of Here’s the ideal model. But I tell every family I work with: this is the water I swim in every day, and I still don’t get it right every time.

I’m a human being. I have my own activation.

When I hear examples like the ones you mentioned, those are usually signs of dysregulation. If my mind is spiraling into the future, that’s a clue that I’m no longer present. I’m worried about something else.

So none of this is to say that staying regulated is easy. It’s completely natural to become dysregulated when we’re around dysregulation.

At the same time, the more we practice it, the easier it becomes. It’s like yoga. The more we practice, the more accessible it gets.

I think one of the biggest challenges is the guilt and shame parents feel. They think, But I get dysregulated. And my response is: that’s okay.

When we’re supporting a meltdown, it might look like staying regulated the whole time. But more often, it looks like a dance. I regulate. I notice I’m getting dysregulated. I come back to myself. Then I regulate again.

That cycle happens throughout the experience. It doesn’t mean you have to stay perfectly regulated from beginning to end. And honestly, there’s benefit in both versions. If I stay regulated, I’m creating a calm space. But if I become dysregulated and then regulate myself again, I’m also modeling something really powerful.

I’m showing my child:

“I disconnected, and now I’m back.”

“I disconnected, and now I’m back.”

We so often think we have to teach children by telling them what to do. But there is tremendous power in modeling it. Simply showing them what regulation looks like when things feel really big and overwhelming is teaching them.

Here’s Part 4 cleaned up in the same publishing-ready style as the revised Part 3: all content preserved, no summarizing, no omissions, bold speaker names, and natural paragraphs rather than one-line transcript formatting.

Sarah: Options.

Hayden: It might not be that they turn around and do these things immediately, but we are showing them, “Look, I’m right here with you. I get overwhelmed. I get dysregulated.”

And one last thought within that: so often I hear this from the kids I work with—“Nobody else is like this. I’m the only one who feels this way. I’m the only one who gets so overwhelmed by my anger.”

Sarah: Aw.

Hayden: So I think there’s so much normalization in naming our own experience. Maybe it’s naming our own experience, but maybe it’s even just showing them: “Ah, I got really frustrated, and now I’m coming back and regulating myself. I’m making repair. I’m taking accountability for it.”

All of those pieces matter. There’s power in all of them, I think, and that’s something I hope I get across to the families I work with. I think there’s often this guilt or shame of, “I’m not doing a good job at this.”

And it’s like, there’s value in all of these things when you can bring some intentionality to them.

Sarah: I love that.

I’m kind of springing this on you, and I don’t know if I’ve seen you talk about this specifically in your reels, but do you have any specific strategies for aggression that comes with a meltdown?

Hayden: Yeah.

I think the thing that’s really tricky with aggression is that, especially when we’re talking on social media, I’m not there. I don’t know your kid. So it’s really hard for me to tell you exactly how to support them in the moment.

I always start with a very generic statement: we have to create safety first.

I can’t tell you exactly what that’s going to look like because every situation is different. But you have to make sure you’re safe, your child is safe, their siblings are safe, their friends are safe—whoever is around needs to be safe.

We have to create physical safety first and foremost.

Then, from there, I think it’s helpful to understand that the fight-or-flight response is what’s happening. It would make sense that we’ve reached a level where things have gotten so big that the child is now fighting. That’s the response that’s happening.

In that moment, we’re really trying to communicate, “This isn’t warranted right now. You don’t need to be in a fight response.”

The ways we do that include the co-regulation we’ve already talked about, but also being very aware of how we’re presenting ourselves.

How are we appearing? Are we cornering them? Are we standing high above them? Can we get down to their level?

Those subtle things can send the message: “Everything is activated. The alarm bells are going off. There’s this thing hovering over me. I’m cornered in my room, so I have to fight my way out.”

Can we bring just a little bit of awareness to those dynamics, as best we’re able, once we’ve created safety?

Some of those pieces can be really difficult because we’re trying to keep our kids safe. We may need to be in their personal space to prevent them from hurting themselves.

But once we get to a place where they’re no longer actively hurting themselves, can we begin sending signals that—

Sarah: That they’re safe and that you’re not a threat.

Hayden: Exactly.

And it’s not even necessarily that you are the threat. It’s more about asking, What can we do to help simmer things down a little bit?

One of the other things that comes to mind is talking less and keeping things really simple.

If they’re in that level of activation, it’s not the time to reason. It’s probably not the time to talk about how frustrating the situation is for them.

Sarah: Right.

Hayden: It might simply be:

“I’m right here.”

Sarah: Yeah.

Hayden: “I’m right here.”

Just a steady presence. Keeping it calm, quiet, and simple.

“You are safe.”

Really short, simple phrases.

I think another idea that comes to mind is thinking about the activation in the body. When we’re talking about nervous system activation and fight or flight, things are escalating. Things are speeding up. That energy is getting big.

It makes sense that it’s coming out through the extremities—through hitting, kicking, biting, screaming. The energy is trying to get out of the body.

So if our child is hitting, can we find a way for them to move that energy through their hands?

Maybe I have a pillow and I’m letting them push against it.

Again, this has to be balanced with safety. I can’t tell every parent, “This is what you should do every time.” But with some children—especially smaller children—if their arms are flying around, I might be able to create a situation where they can push against a pillow.

If they’re kicking and their legs are flailing, can we do something similar where their feet are pushing against something?

We’re giving some proprioceptive input while simultaneously allowing the energy to move through the part of the body that’s already showing us where that energy wants to go.

Sarah: That makes sense.

When you were talking about creating safety through your physical presence when someone’s having a meltdown, I was reminded of something.

It’s funny—I don’t know if you find this in your work—but sometimes I use an analogy or example for years and then kind of forget about it.

I was reminded that I used to talk to parents about pretending they’d just come across a wild dog that was acting aggressively. I’d ask them, “What would you do to get past this wild dog?”

They’re always saying things like, “Well, I’d talk softly. I’d get lower. I’d...”

Instinctively, we all seem to have a sense of how to demonstrate to another creature that we’re not a threat.

And then I’d say, “Okay. Do that with your kid. Do that with your kid.”

What you were saying reminded me of that.

Hayden: Absolutely.

I think that visual of a cornered animal is a really powerful one because it makes sense.

As you were talking, I was thinking about a book by Dr. Stuart Brown about play. One of the things he talked about was how animals have this moment of uncertainty when they encounter each other.

It’s almost like they’re asking, “Are you a threat or not?”

If two dogs are approaching each other, there’s this moment where they’re feeling each other out. We don’t know which direction it’s going to go until they determine things are okay. Then their tails start wagging, and they begin jumping around and playing.

But first there’s that period of interaction where they’re assessing the situation.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: That’s the idea we’re talking about here.

One of the things I discuss is using playfulness as a strategy to support regulation—even sometimes during meltdowns. This is a little different from the aggression question, but it connects.

If I come in trying to be playful when a child’s brain is trying to figure out what’s happening, they may think, “Wait, what is going on? I don’t understand this.”

It can almost feel like an uncertain threat.

Sarah: Or, “Are they making fun of me?”

Hayden: Exactly.

And so it’s the same principle we’ve been talking about throughout this conversation.

We’re trying to lay a foundation. When I talk about co-regulation, we’re really trying to co-regulate the environment.

It’s not necessarily about getting our child to do something. It’s about decreasing the intensity of the environment.

Whether we’re talking about aggression or anything else, can we be intentional about helping the environment feel a little less intense?

Can we help our child feel safe enough to move out of that fight-or-flight state?

Sarah: Fantastic. This has been so helpful, Hayden.

Before I let you go, there’s one question I ask all my guests. If you could go back in time—and for you it’s not that far back because your kids are still little—and tell your younger parent self something, what advice would you give yourself?

Hayden: I think—and this may be a controversial one—but I would tell myself to take myself less seriously.

There are so many stressors. There are so many things we think we have to do. We have to be on time. We have to present ourselves a certain way. We have to manage all these responsibilities.

Just have some fun.

Take yourself a little less seriously and bring in more silliness, fun, and playfulness.

That’s something I really try to communicate now. It’s why I bring playful strategies into my work.

When I think about the beginning of parenthood and how overwhelming it was—having little kids, trying to balance everything, coming out of COVID when everything felt weird—I wish I had remembered to enjoy it more.

And that’s not to say it’s always fun, enjoyable, or easy.

But it also doesn’t need to feel stressful all the time.

Sarah: I got you.

And if that’s controversial, it shouldn’t be.

It reminds me of when I worked in early childhood education before I had kids. I used to go home and say to my husband, “Oh my God, parents are crazy.”

I shouldn’t use ableist language, but I didn’t know another way to describe it at the time. I couldn’t understand how parents could get so upset about things.

Then I became a parent and thought, “Oh my gosh, I totally get it.”

But it’s that reminder that things aren’t all-or-nothing.

When I look back now—and I’m in a very different stage of parenting—I think about things that felt like a huge deal when my kids were little. Things I worried about endlessly.

And now I think, “I wish I hadn’t taken that so seriously.”

I wish I could have remembered that they were all eventually going to sleep through the night.

Hayden: Mm-hmm.

My partner has brought in this language that I really love:

“You are more important than whatever.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Hayden: So, “You are more important than us being on time to this event.”

Or, “You are more important than the glass of milk that got knocked over.”

Sarah: That’s beautiful.

Hayden: It’s just a reframe.

Yes, that thing happened. But you are more important than that thing.

Sarah: That’s beautiful. I love that.

Hayden: Yeah.

Sarah: We’ll put links in the show notes, but if you want to give a shout-out to your Instagram account, it sounds like that’s probably the best place for people to learn more about you and what you do.

Hayden: Yeah, I think that’s a great place to start because it gives people a little more of what I do.

My Instagram is Low Tide Play Therapist, and that’s probably the best landing spot.

Then the more business-focused side is lowtidecoaching.com.

Sarah: Great.

What’s the story behind Low Tide?

Hayden: It’s actually how I named my play therapy practice.

At the time, we were living in Wilmington, North Carolina. We only had one child, and I was wrestling with what I wanted to call the practice.

Our child was very young, and suddenly the ocean felt a little intimidating. That was a new experience for me because it hadn’t felt that way before.

One day we went to the beach during low tide. There were little tide pools everywhere, and it felt very safe and non-threatening.

And ultimately, I think that’s what play is.

It’s a space where we can explore things that feel big, challenging, or overwhelming in an environment where there aren’t huge stakes attached to them.

As I watched my child playing in those tide pools—with no giant waves, no threat—I thought:

“That’s it. That’s the name.”

Low Tide Play Therapy.

Sarah: I’m glad I asked because that’s a great story.

Hayden: Yeah.

Sarah: Well, thank you so much.

Hayden: Thank you. I appreciate it.

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, my guest is Dr. Justin Coulson, an Australian parenting expert and father of 6 who has his PhD in psychology and is the author of 10 books on parenting and the co-host of the Happy Families podcast with his wife, Kylie. We discuss the psychology behind peaceful parenting, including how self-determination theory explains kids’ challenging behavior. Dr. Justin also shared his three E’s of discipline.

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We talk about:

* 1:45 – Introduction to Dr. Justin Coulson and his personal parenting turning point

How struggles with anger and discipline led him to rethink everything and study psychology.

* 08:20 – Learning to regulate ourselves, practicing repair, and growing over time.

* 15:50 – Why peaceful parenting starts with the parent’s self-awareness and regulation.

* 19:50 – Understanding behavior through compassion and curiosity.

* 20:50 – The HALTS framework

How hunger, anger, loneliness, tiredness, and stress impact children’s behavior.

* 23:00 – Self-determination theory and parenting

* 33:00 – The 3 E’s of Effective Discipline

* 41:50 – How to use the 3 E’s in everyday parenting moments.

Real-life examples: screens, sibling conflict & collaboration

* 49:00 – Building trust and the “goodwill bank” with kids

Why collaborative parenting pays off when tough limits are needed.

* 53:30 – Advice to his younger parenting self: “soft eyes”

A powerful reflection on kindness, connection, and showing up with compassion.

* 56:30 – Where to find Dr. Justin Coulson

His podcast, books, and upcoming work on boys and healthy masculinity.

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* Dr. Justin’s website and podcast

* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

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Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Dr. Justin Coulson. He’s an Australian parenting expert with a PhD in psychology, the author of 10 books on parenting, the co-host of the Happy Families podcast with his wife, Kylie, the father of six children, and, last but not least, grandfather of one.

We discuss the psychology behind peaceful parenting, including how self-determination theory explains kids’ challenging behavior. Dr. Justin also shared his three E’s of discipline, which I just loved.

If you like this episode, please share it with a friend so more parents can learn about peaceful parenting. If you’re a fan of the podcast, you can help us out not only by sharing it, but by leaving a review and a five-star rating in your podcast player app. While you’re there, don’t forget to follow the show so you don’t miss an episode.

If you’d like to support us even more, you can become a supporter on Substack to help us offset the cost of making the show. We’ll put a link in the show notes.

Let’s meet Dr. Justin. I hope you enjoy this conversation and get as much out of his insights as I did.

Sarah: Hello, Dr. Justin, and welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Justin: Sarah, I’m so glad to be with you. Thanks for having me on.

Sarah: Yeah, and it’s morning for you, evening for me—nice—and I’m just glad that we could make this time to talk to each other. I really appreciate it. Thank you. So, could you just tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Dr. Justin: Sure. I grew up on the east coast of Australia, about an hour north of Sydney. Geographically, that kind of locates where I was. I was the teenage boy that every parent hopes they will not have. I don’t think I was a particularly bad kid, but I certainly wasn’t a good kid.

My parents were spending a small fortune—I’m a 1975 baby, I turned 50 last year—but this was in the late ’80s and early ’90s. My parents were spending so much money to send me to a private school. Because we were on the coast—a very quintessentially Australian thing—I was wagging school.

Do you say “wagging school” in Canada? Is that a term Canadians use?

Sarah: No, but I think we get the context. I think it means not going to school.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, I was truant. They thought I was there, but I wasn’t.

Sarah: We say skipping.

Dr. Justin: I was skipping school. Okay, yeah. We call it a school wag.

So I would go to school in the morning and get my name marked off in roll call. Then I would sneak out of the school. Across the road from the school, there were bushes—kind of a forest, or whatever you might call it in Canada and America. I would get changed out of my tie, long pants, and black school shoes, throw on some board shorts and a T-shirt.

My surfboard was stashed in the bush, and I’d grab it from the hiding place. Then I’d jump on a bus, go to the beach, and surf all day. Afterward, I’d get a bus back to school in the afternoon, change back into my uniform, and race into the school just in time to get my name marked off, looking like I’d been at school all day.

This was in the days before schools communicated with parents via email and text, because none of that existed. I was able to get away with it.

So I finished high school. I scored in the bottom 15%—

Sarah: Goodness.

Dr. Justin: Not just my class, but of the entire state of New South Wales. My parents were devastated.

I didn’t care. I wanted to have a media career. I wanted to be a radio announcer. So I got into radio. If you’ve ever listened to the radio—and no offense to radio people—you know you don’t have to do well at school to be good at radio. You just have to be able to sit on the microphone and say things that make sense.

I knew I could do that, so school didn’t matter to me. I didn’t care about it. That’s what I did.

But this is where it intersects with parenting.

About 10 years into my radio career, my wife and I were having some challenges, particularly around my parenting. We had a threenager and a newborn baby.

That three-year-old—I had always held the opinion that my children would do as they were told, and if they didn’t, I would make sure they understood that I was the father and that their job was to do as I said.

So I was very punitive. I basically made all of the parenting mistakes you can imagine when I would get angry, frustrated, and ill-tempered. It’s not that I was a bad father—I spent a lot of high-quality time loving my kids—but I was also really short-fused and highly aggressive.

Frankly, I went from threatening to hitting really fast. You call it spanking; we would call it smacking. I was very, very quick to smack or spank my three-year-old, and it wasn’t working.

After one particularly bad incident where things escalated, I really did lose control. I didn’t just spank her once. There were multiple spankings. This was like a 10-minute escalation session where it just got worse and worse and worse.

My wife was out at the time. When she came home, I said to Kylie, “I’m a bad father. I’m not doing this well. I’m making a lot of mistakes, and here’s what happened while you were out.”

Full confession: Kylie has always been this wonderfully supportive wife—very kind, gentle, compassionate, soft-spoken, thoughtful, considerate, empathic—all of those beautiful attributes that I prize and treasure in my good wife.

She was none of those things that day.

She had fire in her eyes and said, “You are not living up to the father that I hoped you would be, and you’re also not living up to the husband I need you to be.”

And it took me back, because I was already feeling downcast. I felt like I was failing anyway, and she just—it was like she picked up a great big lump of wood and whacked me over the head with it and said, “No.”

Of course, she didn’t actually do that, but that’s how it felt. It felt physical. Visceral. Like, Ow. This is serious.

I left my radio career shortly thereafter.

I was working at one of the biggest radio stations in Australia at the time, and I gave up all the backstage passes with global superstars and hanging out with record company executives at the best restaurants, eating their food so they could bribe me to play their music on the radio station. I went back to school.

I became a full-time student. I worked part-time at three different jobs while studying full-time. I’d sleep under the desk at university so I could do the study and the work—

Sarah: No surfing this time?

Dr. Justin: No surfing this time, no. I was just so committed to it.

After eight and a half years of full-time study, I graduated with a doctorate. I had to do a couple of other qualifications first, including a psychological science degree. I graduated with a doctorate in psychology and became a university lecturer.

Along the way, Sarah, we went from having our two kids at that point to having our third child in my first year of study, our fourth child in my fifth year of study, and our fifth child while I was doing my doctorate. Shortly after I left the university setting, stopped lecturing, and started writing books and giving talks, we had our sixth child.

So we’re the parents—

Sarah: Amazing.

Dr. Justin: —of six daughters. Today, they range in age from 12—the youngest—to the oldest, who is in her mid-to-late 20s. She and her husband have a baby now. They’ve been married for a few years.

Sarah: Wow. You’re a grandpa.

Dr. Justin: A grand—I’m a grandpa. We have a two-and-a-half-year-old grandbaby, four adult children, one in her teens, and a 12-year-old.

So that’s kind of my very short version of the journey.

Along the way, I’ve written a bunch of books. We’ve got a TV show in Australia called Parental Guidance. We’ve had three seasons of that show on primetime TV. I’ve got a website and all the things that you’d expect—a podcast and so on.

Sarah: What did you do when you had that aha moment—that realization that you weren’t being the kind of dad you wanted to be, and your wife also agreed that you weren’t being the kind of dad she wanted you to be? What did you change?

Because you just mentioned that you spent eight and a half years going back to school. I imagine that you made some changes before you had six kids. So what did you do right away, maybe for anyone listening who can relate to those feelings of rage and feeling triggered by your child?

Dr. Justin: Sarah, the first thing I’d say is that there was no linear change, and there were no immediate changes, because I didn’t know what to do.

I was unskilled. I was uneducated. I didn’t know anything about psychology, and I clearly didn’t know anything about parenting.

But I found a mentor. I have a faith background, and there was a writer who wrote eloquently and compassionately. I just felt like he understood me, and he became a mentor to me.

I also discovered a guy called Alfie Kohn. You might be familiar with Alfie Kohn.

Sarah: Oh, Alfie Kohn was the first thing I ever read about parenting—

Dr. Justin: Oh, great.

Sarah: —before I even had kids. And he was on the podcast last year, which felt like a full-circle moment between how influential—

I told him on the podcast, “You have probably had the biggest influence on me—not only in my parenting, but in my life’s direction—of any single person out there.”

So, sorry, fan-girl moment. I’m right there with you with Alfie Kohn.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. I’ve gotten to know Alfie over the years as my academic career advanced and I began to understand where he took his research from.

I read his book Punished by Rewards—I think it was a 1993—

Sarah: That was my first one too.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, it’s a 1993 publication or something.

Sarah, it was just so influential.

What happened was, I was doing my university degree and learning things, and honestly, I’d be sitting there thinking, Hang on, the things they’re teaching me in these university courses seem to clash with what Alfie Kohn taught me in Punished by Rewards.

So I spent a lot of time in the notes section at the back—you know, all the references nobody ever reads?

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: As I went through them, I discovered researchers named Edward Deci and Richard Ryan from the University of Rochester in upstate New York.

They had developed a theory known as self-determination theory.

A large portion of Alfie Kohn’s work is based on self-determination theory.

So I really dug deep into that. I still love Alfie, but I moved very much into the academic side because I became a university lecturer and really got into the nitty-gritty of understanding the deepest depths of what self-determination theory is all about. That has become the foundation of the work that I do.

And to your question: nothing is linear when you are trying to make improvements.

Whether you’re trying to change your diet, exercise, get your finances in order, or improve your relationships, you have insights. You have moments where you think, Oh my goodness, this is what I need to do. I need to show up with warmth on my face and soft eyes.

And then three hours later, one of your children does something, and you forget what soft eyes look and feel like. You look at them with hard eyes, frustration in your voice, and short, clipped sentences.

Then half an hour later, you think, Oh, self-awareness. I missed that.

So it’s this gradual process: two steps forward, one step back. Three steps forward, one step back. Four steps forward, three steps back. Eight steps forward, no steps back.

Over the years, I had this beautiful experience—and maybe you’ve had a similar experience in your family as you’ve raised your kids.

We were maybe in my third or fourth year of study. My wife has an early childhood background. She knows child development. She knows what kids need.

She was a little skeptical about a lot of the things I was starting to talk about and discover as I went through university and got into the depths of what the research meant—comparing and contrasting it with what was mainstream, but actually not always quite right.

We had some tension around how we should respond to the children. I was moving away from that authoritarian bent and developing ideas around exploring their world more.

One night, I came home from university a little late. It was probably around 9:00 p.m. Our three children were still awake.

As I drove into the driveway, all the lights in the house were on. The windows were open. Looking through the living room window, I could tell the house was—to put it politely—a mess.

And as I stepped into the house, the kids—it was just awful.

I walked over to Kylie and said, “Honey, it looks like it’s been a pretty tough day.”

I was trying to be compassionate and empathic. I was really trying to do what psychology says is the right thing to do.

Kylie looked at me without hesitation and said, “Don’t give me any of that psychology crap. I’ve had the worst day in the world.”

Then she stormed out and said, “You fix it,” and walked into the bedroom and closed the door.

Again, this is not how my wife usually is, but it had been a really rough day. The kids were feral. The house was a mess.

I looked at my priorities. I sat down with the child who was struggling the most and worked with her for two or three minutes. She calmed down, I gave her a little food, and put her to bed.

Within about 20 minutes, I had all three kids in bed, and I was so proud of myself.

I stepped into the kitchen and started tidying up. I thought, I’ll just give Kylie some space.

After another 30 or 40 minutes of tidying, I stepped into the living room and said, “Honey, I know you’re really upset. It’s been a pretty tough day. I wasn’t trying to be judgy or anything.”

And she said, “It’s fine for you. You’re not dealing with it all day. You walk in and think you can just snap your fingers and everything’s fine.”

Then she looked at me and said, “But tonight, you walked in and it feels like you snapped your fingers and everything’s fine.”

And we had this beautiful conversation where she said, “I’ve been resenting the things you’ve been trying to tell me because it felt like you were telling me I was wrong.

“But I’ve been watching, and I’m actually seeing that the things you’re doing are working, and our family is feeling better.”

It took four or five years to get there, Sarah.

It’s not like I had this epiphany—I’m a bad father, I need to change—and suddenly I was a good dad.

There were many embarrassing, shameful moments after that epiphany where I still made terrible decisions and treated the children badly.

Even today, I still lose my temper, say things I shouldn’t, and get frustrated, because kids are kids and we’re fallible humans.

But we call parenting parenting because it’s about us. If it were about children, we’d call it childrening.

Which sounds silly, right?

Dr. Justin: But what I’ve really discovered is that if I can learn how to regulate myself—high emotions equal low intelligence—then I can regulate my emotions, turn them up or down appropriately for the context, and keep them in harmony with my long-term goals, which are to have loving, kind relationships with my children.

If I can do that, I’m going to approach them with a tremendously different focus than I will if I’m looking for a short-term fix.

And that is something—

Anger is a habit. Yelling is a habit. Time-out is a habit. Reward charts are a habit.

We can create other habits. We just have to understand the processes and principles behind those habits and then practice them, like we practice a song on the piano, until we finally get it right.

Sarah: I love that.

So you and Kylie really had a journey—a back-and-forth dance of your own processes and your own development.

I do love how you say it’s really about us. Whenever I’m working with clients, after a couple of sessions they’ll say, “You know what? This isn’t even about my kid. This is just about me.”

Dr. Justin: Yes. Yes.

Sarah: Nobody wants to believe that at first, because it’s so much easier to think, I’ve just got to change them and what they’re doing.

But it’s really all about what we’re bringing to the moment and what we’re bringing to the relationship.

Dr. Justin: I get in trouble sometimes for being overly provocative and saying things that are insensitive, so a quick warning:

I want to say what I’m about to say with all the compassion in the world and all the tenderness and care in the world, because I work with people every single day who are dealing with exactly the struggles you’re talking about.

I want to step into the world of neurodiversity—ADHD, autism, trauma—those kinds of areas.

What we’re talking about applies there as well. It’s just harder.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: But ultimately, if I’m raising an ADHD child or a child who’s been through a traumatic experience, once again, parenting is not about them. It’s about how I show up for them.

So I can say, “Well, my child’s like that,” or, “I’m like this because of the diagnosis,” or because of the label, or because of the trauma, or because of the neural networks doing what they’re doing.

I can say all of those things, and many people do. It’s understandable, and I have all the compassion in the world for them when they do.

But the key thing I want to highlight is that in spite of all of those challenges your child might be facing—or even that you might be facing—today begins now.

It begins with what you put on your face and what you think in your mind.

If we can soften our features and go to our children with kindness and compassion while still holding appropriate limits—or working with them to develop appropriate limits—then what we can say is:

“Yes, that bad thing happened,” or, “Yes, we are dealing with this difficulty, so what are we going to do about it?”

We can fall into the I can’t do anything way of thinking, which is really ineffective and doesn’t help at all.

Or we can step into I have this incredible thing psychologists call agency, or self-efficacy, where I can make a decision now, and if we work on it, we can actually improve things.

It might be a longer, harder road. There may be more obstacles to climb over than a typical family without those challenging circumstances.

It may be harder.

But we can always improve.

I never want to be the person who puts limits on what kids can do or what parents can do.

If we change our language, change our focus, and recognize that this is a long game—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —which requires sustained effort every single day, it’s extraordinary the progress we can make and the changes we can create in our home and our family.

Sarah: For sure. Yeah.

And unfortunately, it’s a long game, right? Because I think today we always want quick answers and solutions.

Really, it’s just showing up every day as best you can and repairing when you don’t show up the way you wish you had.

And I think another really important part of it—which you were talking around a little bit—is trying to understand our child’s experience and see things from their perspective.

I was just talking to a client about that today:

What’s the most emotionally generous explanation you can come up with for their behavior?

Because we don’t actually know why anyone does anything, since we’re not in their brain.

But we often jump to, They’re being rude on purpose, or They’re trying to annoy me.

Really, if we can think, Well, I don’t know why they’re doing this, but there’s probably a reason, because kids want to be good. They want to be connected with us.

And just reminding ourselves that they’re not giving us a hard time—they’re having a hard time.

That actually makes it easier, I think, to show up as your best, most compassionate self—with, as you say, soft eyes and warm features.

Dr. Justin: Yeah.

No child wakes up in the morning thinking, Today’s the day. I’m just going to ruin everything.

This is the perfect opportunity. My parents are tired and frazzled. There’s a cost-of-living crisis. There are all these challenges happening, and if ever there was a moment—it’s now. I’m going to do it today.

They don’t wake up thinking that.

Like you said—and you said it so perfectly—kids really do want to please us.

I know some parents listening to me say that right now are thinking, No, no. My child does not want to please me.

And so the question becomes: Why? Why are they struggling?

And maybe this is a nice way for me to bring in some of the principles I learned as I went deeper into self-determination theory.

There are a couple of times when children are almost guaranteed to be challenging, and this has nothing to do with self-determination theory. This is just general psychology and wellbeing.

I always think of Germany. A police officer tells you to stop, but they don’t say the word stop because they’re German.

In German, the word for stop is halt—H-A-L-T.

So we add an S to the end, and the acronym becomes:

Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired, or Stressed.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Those are the five times when you can all but guarantee your children are not going to be doing well.

If they are hungry, get some food into them—ideally a little protein, because it’s satiating and helps them feel full quickly.

If they’re angry, then we’ve got to remember: high emotions equal low intelligence.

You can’t think straight in a high emotional state.

So our job is to get curious, not furious, because if we fight fire with fire, we end up with a scorched-earth policy and everything gets burned.

Dr. Justin: Lonely.

I could be sitting right next to you, Sarah, and feel disconnected and lonely—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —even if we were very close.

Our children are sometimes literally sitting at our kitchen bench, and they feel alone. They feel a little lost. Because of the way we’re responding to them—with hard commands, correction, and direction rather than connection—they feel lonely.

Tired.

I don’t even need to explain that.

Even as adults, I don’t know any couple who, at the end of witching hour—or whatever you might call it in North America, that 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. stretch when the kids—

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: —are just oof…

It’s the end of that period, and you’re exhausted, the kids are exhausted, and you look at your husband or wife and say, “You know what? We are so tired. We’re shattered. But boy, are we nailing it tonight.”

Nobody ever says that when they’re tired—

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: —because you’re not nailing it. You’re just hanging in there.

And it’s the same with kids.

Then the S is for stressed, and that includes sickness, because sickness is a stress on the body as well.

Those five indicators are going to let you know when your child is likely to be challenging, and I think they’re really good to watch out for.

But if we go a little deeper and talk about self-determination theory, it says that each of us has these needs.

You have them, Sarah, and I have them, and our children have them—even your mother-in-law has them.

We have three basic psychological needs.

When we’re in environments where those needs are supported, oh my goodness, we thrive. These are environments we’re drawn to and attracted to. We approach them with a smile on our face and can’t wait to be there.

But if the environment is what researchers call need-thwarting or need-frustrating—meaning it frustrates and thwarts those needs—then we avoid it.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Or, if we’re in those environments, we act in ways that are challenging.

So the basic psychological needs are:

Number one: a sense of relationship, or relatedness. That’s the technical term they use.

Relatedness is a sense of mutual belonging.

Sarah: So would it be similar to mattering? Like you feel like you matter to somebody?

Dr. Justin: Yeah. There’s been a lot of talk recently about mattering.

But it’s reciprocal mattering. It’s not just one-way.

It’s I matter to you, but you matter to me.

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: Let me use Mother’s Day as an example.

We just had Mother’s Day in Australia at the start of May.

If I’ve got a great relationship with my mother-in-law, and it’s Mother’s Day, I’m probably going to spend the morning with my wife and family while my children celebrate their mum. Then maybe at lunchtime, we head over to the in-laws to celebrate my wife’s mum.

If I feel like that relationship need is supported at my mother-in-law’s—meaning there’s mutual belonging, I matter to her, she matters to me, we enjoy one another’s company, and it feels good—I’m going to say:

“Great. Let’s get in the car. Let’s go. What do we need to do?”

But if I’m going to a need-frustrating environment—if there’s tension, antagonism, snide remarks, eye rolls, silence, defensiveness, or wounds from bad things that happened in the past—that environment doesn’t feel good to me.

So I’m going to say to Kylie:

“Honey, why don’t you take the kids to your mum’s? Have a great lunch. We’ve made a big mess this morning, and I think the best thing I can do for your Mother’s Day”—and I’ll frame it nicely, of course—“is stay home, tidy the house, clean up the kitchen, get everything ready, and put dinner on for tonight so you can have your perfect Mother’s Day dinner. I’ll see you in four hours.”

And then I send her out the door.

Why?

Because my in-laws’ home has become a need-thwarting or need-frustrating environment. I just don’t want to be there.

And if I am there, I’m going to be sullen and sulky. I might try my best for half an hour and then say, “Oh, this is too hard,” and retreat—

Sarah: Or text. The adult version of misbehavior.

Dr. Justin: Yes, exactly. Exactly.

But if I’m a child in a need-thwarting or need-frustrating environment, I’m going to get into fights with the kids I don’t like.

Or I’m going to say, “I don’t want to go to school because everyone picks on me because I don’t regulate my behavior properly because I’ve got ADHD.”

Right?

So school becomes a place I don’t want to go.

Or maybe you have a faith background and your child doesn’t have any friends at church.

Or you’ve signed them up for soccer, but they don’t know anyone on the team.

And they’re saying, “Yeah, but I don’t want to go.”

It all comes down to relationship.

Relationship is the basic psychological need that’s being thwarted.

Now, the second basic psychological need is competence.

Competence, I would describe as feeling like I can do the thing I’m being asked to do.

Sarah: Or that I want to do.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. We’ll get to want to in just a second, because want-to is the third basic psychological need—autonomy.

So stay with me on competence for a second.

Competence is capability. Capacity.

It’s not even necessarily about being able to do something—it’s about feeling like you’re making progress toward the goal.

Let’s say I’m joining acrobatics and trying to learn how to do a handstand.

That’s really tricky. It’s a tough skill.

If I show up every week to acrobatics, even if I’ve got great friends there—so my relationship need is supported—and I love my coach, but every time I try to do a handstand my shoulders buckle, my elbows aren’t straight, my form is wrong, I fall over, or I can’t stay up…

After four or five or six weeks, I’m going to say:

“I don’t like this anymore. I’m out.”

I had a daughter who wanted to come cycling with me.

I’m a really keen cyclist. I ride on the road. I’m a middle-aged man in Lycra.

But I also ride on the velodrome.

You’ve seen those velodrome bikes at the Olympics—the indoor track where they go around and around and around.

You might have noticed that after they finish the race, they keep pedaling and do another 10 laps.

The reason is twofold.

Number one: there are no brakes on those bikes.

And second: they use what’s called a fixed gear, meaning that when the wheels are spinning, the pedals are spinning.

If you stop pedaling, you’re going to get thrown over the handlebars because the wheels are still moving, which means the pedals are still moving, even if you try to stop them.

So you just have to keep riding until the bike slows down.

My daughter wanted to come to Friday night velodrome racing with me.

We didn’t have the money, but we spent all this cash on a bike, the Lycra, the helmet, the special shoes—it cost a lot, and I was a poor university student.

But my daughter wanted to cycle with me, and I wasn’t going to miss that opportunity. So we sacrificed and made it happen.

Unfortunately, she was competing against girls who had been riding for four, five, or six years.

For the first few weeks, she gave it a good go, but she was losing by several laps every race.

After about a month, she said:

“Dad, I don’t want to do this anymore.”

And my response was:

“But I’ve spent all this money.”

But what was really going on was that as much as she liked the girls and the atmosphere, she didn’t feel competent—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —and she didn’t see progress.

She didn’t feel like she was ever going to master the activity, so her motivation and wellbeing plummeted.

Cycling became a need-thwarting environment for her.

Whether it’s piano, violin, rock climbing, cycling, swimming, math, PE class—it doesn’t matter.

If your kids don’t feel like they can do the thing, they’re going to push back.

They’re going to say:

“This is too hard. I don’t like it.”

They won’t use these exact words, but what they’re really saying is:

“This is a need-frustrating environment for me. I don’t like it. I don’t want to be there.”

And then they start to act out.

My mom got to the stage with me as a 13-year-old boy where she was physically holding me by the arm and dragging me into my piano lessons.

Dr. Justin: Which brings me to my third and final basic psychological need, which is autonomy.

A lot of people hear the word autonomy and think it means freedom—that kids can do whatever they want. They think it means independence.

That’s not what autonomy means, certainly not in the strict scientific form we’re talking about within this theory.

Rather, autonomy comes down to identifying the value of an activity and therefore endorsing the actions required to do the activity.

See, if I, as a 12-year-old, looked at piano and thought:

This is going to be a lifelong skill that will bring me joy, that I’ll be able to share with others, that I can use in service of my family and community. If I can play piano or keyboard, I could be in a band. I could do all of these things.

If I identified the value in the activity, then I would endorse the work required to learn it.

So autonomy is not about freedom and independence. It’s about choice based on values.

That’s a lot when you’re thinking about three-, four-, and five-year-olds, but not necessarily—

Sarah: No, I love that.

We talk about that all the time in my communities—how important it is for kids to have autonomy.

And I think you can have autonomy even when kids can’t be independent, right?

Because you can’t have a four-year-old who’s independent, but you can have a four-year-old who can make decisions that matter.

Dr. Justin: Yes, yes.

And that decision goes well beyond, Do you want to wear the blue suit or the green one?

Sarah: I’ll quote our friend Alfie Kohn. He says, “Kids should have the ability to make decisions that make adults gulp a little bit.”

Dr. Justin: I love it. Yes. Beautiful.

Let me give an adult version of this, and then I’ll swing it back into childhood, because sometimes parents hear this and think, This isn’t quite computing for me.

In Canada, you drive on the right-hand side of the road.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: And it’s true that if you choose to drive on the left-hand side of the road, the authorities will probably get involved. You may cause harm to somebody. You could even end up in prison.

But even in the middle of the night, when nobody’s on the road, I can’t imagine there are too many Canadians who get in the car and think:

Tonight’s the night. Nobody’s watching. I’m gonna drive on the left.

You are being absolutely controlled by the government and by the law. You’re driving on the right-hand side of the road.

But because you identify the value in driving on the right-hand side of the road, nobody has to compel you to do it.

You just do it because you endorse the idea that driving on the right is safer. It’s what you need to do.

So our job with our children is twofold.

First, when it comes to these basic psychological needs, we want to help them be in environments—or create environments—where those needs are supported.

We want to send them to a school where they have good relationships, where somebody says, “Hey, come sit with us,” where teachers know them by name and smile when they see them and are excited to support them.

A school where they’re able to experience progress—which might mean less emphasis on grades and more emphasis on developing capability.

And a school where they feel like they have some say in where they’re going and what they’re doing.

Rather than being forced to attend a school like I was when I was a teenager, they get to say:

“No, I want to go to that school because that’s where my friends are.”

Or:

“That’s where the teachers help me feel good.”

Or:

“That’s where my interests lie.”

That’s the basic psychological-needs concept.

Now let’s bring that into discipline, which is what started this whole conversation.

Based on this theory—and I guess it ties back to a lot of what Alfie Kohn has said as well—I developed a little model that’s really easy to memorize and even easier to enact.

I call it the Three E’s of Effective Discipline.

The Three E’s of Effective Discipline are need-supportive.

If you look at the root of the word discipline, it comes from the idea that we teach, guide, and instruct—that we show the way to follow.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: But if you look at the modern definition of discipline, the modern definition is punish.

Punish means exact retribution. It means hurt. It means make someone pay a price.

Sarah: Make people feel bad on purpose.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. That’s exactly right.

And I’m interested in disciplining our kids, not punishing our kids.

Punishment is need-thwarting, right?

If you make someone feel bad on purpose, there goes the relationship. They feel incompetent, and you’ve taken away their autonomy.

So standard discipline strategies—whether it’s time-out, spanking, yelling, withdrawing privileges, taking away the iPad, bribery—all of those standard discipline practices trample over basic psychological needs.

We’ve got to come up with something better.

So I developed the Three E’s of Effective Discipline, which are basically this:

On a beautiful bed of empathy, we explore, we explain, and we empower.

Sarah: Ooh, I love that.

Dr. Justin: Explore basically means I sit down with my child at an appropriate time.

Because we always try to fix things right here, right now.

Sometimes we need to, but often intervention simply to make sure people and property aren’t hurt—that’s all you need.

Then you can say to your child:

“We’ll have a chat about this later when nobody’s got a head full of steam.”

Kick it down the road.

You don’t have to fix things right here, right now. Most of the time, it’s just not necessary.

So once everyone is calm, you explore.

You say:

“Hey, I’ve noticed there’s been a lot of tension in our home lately between you and your brother.”

Or:

“Have you noticed that for the last few weeks we’ve had so much conflict about screens?”

And your child says, “Yeah.”

And you say:

“I just want to listen because parenting’s about parents, right? I must be getting something wrong here. Can you help me understand what I’m missing? Where am I going wrong? What’s the real problem from your perspective?”

Now, there are three things that make this better.

Number one: never do it with an audience.

Kids always want to save face. They don’t feel competent when we start these conversations in front of other people.

Number two: have some treats.

Because once you’re feeding them, they’re like:

“Oh, I’m not in trouble. We’re just chatting, and there are cookies,” or a thick shake, or something like that.

And number three: take notes.

When you’re trying to solve problems—and that’s really what discipline is—

The Three E’s of Effective Discipline are about problem-solving.

Discipline—meaning helping, teaching, guiding, instructing—is really about solving problems.

So if I want to solve problems effectively in my home—if I want to discipline my children well—I’m trying to say:

“Where are you coming from? What am I missing?”

When you take notes on what your kids are saying, it’s amazing how much information they give you because they realize:

You’re really listening to me.

Sarah: Yeah. You’re taking me seriously. You’re writing down what I say.

Dr. Justin: They’re blown away by it.

So they’ll tell you a bunch of stuff.

Now, every now and then they won’t. Sometimes they’ll shrug and say, “I don’t know.”

And you can say:

“Well, if you don’t know, that’s fine. But if you did know…”

This drives kids crazy, but it’s my favorite sentence.

“If you did know, what do you think the answer would be?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: And they roll their eyes.

“Well, I don’t know. That’s what I said. If I knew, I’d tell you, but I don’t know.”

And I say:

“I know you don’t know, and I understand that if you did know, you would tell me. But if you did know, what would you tell me?”

Sarah: I love that.

Dr. Justin: They get this feeling—it’s like this horrible psychological trick where:

I don’t know the answer, but if I had to come up with one, I guess I’d say this…

And now the conversation starts.

You get momentum.

Sarah: You Jedi mind-trick them.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. It’s beautiful.

And you write it down.

At no point are you allowed to interrupt.

At no point are you allowed to tell them they’re wrong.

At no point are you allowed to respond with your adult wisdom.

You just listen.

Sarah: Okay, and we’re still on explore?

Still on the first E?

Dr. Justin: We’re still on the first E.

You make all these notes, and once it sounds like they’ve told you everything, you say:

“All right. So what you’re telling me is…”

And then you read the notes back.

This is the oldest psychological strategy in the book—I’m not saying anything new here.

If they say, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” you say:

“All right. Great. I’ve got it.”

If they say no, then you say:

“Oh, what have I missed? How did I get this wrong? Clarify it for me.”

And they give you more information.

But there’s a really valuable question at the end.

When they say, “Yes, that’s what I’m saying,” you ask:

“Fantastic. Is there anything else?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: The power of asking that extra question is profound.

It forces them to go deeper.

Sometimes they’ll say, “No, that’s it.”

But often, their first answers are shallow answers to get you off their back.

They’re thinking:

I’m telling you what I think you want to hear.

But when you say:

“Got it. You’re happy with this answer? Fantastic. Is there anything else going on?”

That’s when they look at you and think:

Oh—you’re actually serious about this. You really care.

Sarah: And you’re really listening to me.

Dr. Justin: Yeah.

And it’s profound what children will give you after you ask, “Is there anything else?”

Once you’ve got everything written down, confirmed, and you’re clear, the next step is explain.

Dr. Justin: Now, there are a couple of things around explain.

Explain is basically the part where you tell them what they need to know. This is the parent bit.

But all too often, we step into lecturing, and the kids fall asleep. They’re like, “Oh, here we go again. I thought this was going to be different, but it’s no different after all.”

So there are a couple of things we need to get right here.

Number one: if you’re going to explain anything to your children, my recommendation is that you keep it to less than 20 seconds.

Now, there’s no science around this. This is just my experience in talking with parents and kids in my own family. I find that if you talk for more than 10 to 20 seconds, kids really do tune out, and it goes back to the way things have always been.

The second thing is that I always ask permission.

“Now that I’ve listened to you, Sarah, there are just one or two things I’d love to run by you about what’s going on. Do you mind if I do that?”

I want to make this absolutely clear: as a parent, you do not need your child’s permission to tell them things. I really, absolutely, honestly believe that. As the parent, you have the right to tell them stuff they need to know.

But this isn’t about rights. This is about effectiveness.

If I launch into, “Well, Sarah, now that I’ve listened to that, I get it, but I need to tell you these two things,” I’m already bringing defensiveness back into the relationship.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Barriers are coming up.

Whereas if I say, “Sarah, this is so helpful. As I’ve listened to you, two things have come to mind. Do you mind if I share both of those with you?” Your instant response, even as I say it—I’m watching your face—

Sarah: I’m nodding.

Dr. Justin: And you’re going—

Sarah: Yeah.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. I actually want to know.

You’re opening up your heart and mind to me, and we’re just role-playing this.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: And that’s what our kids do. They’re like, “Oh, okay.” Because we’ve given them the courtesy of listening—

Sarah: Well, and you’re not trying to use your power over them.

Dr. Justin: Exactly.

This is a non-coercive, really supportive conversation.

And I still haven’t had this happen. A lot of parents will say, “Well, what happens if they say no?”

And I’m like, “I’ve raised six kids, and they’ve never actually looked at me and said, ‘Now that I think about it, no, I don’t need to know anything that you…’”

They’ve just never done it.

But even if they did—

Sarah: Well, if they do, it’s probably that they’re—what did you say? When emotions are high, intelligence is low. Maybe it wasn’t the right time to have the conversation.

If they’re saying no, then they’re probably still angry and holding onto whatever was going on for them.

Dr. Justin: Exactly.

But if they’re that angry, they’re probably not going to have explored nicely with you anyway.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. So pick—

Dr. Justin: A different time.

You’re probably not even going to—

Sarah: Get to that point. Yeah.

Dr. Justin: So it’s very much: keep it really short, ask permission, and then share.

Sarah: Okay. So give me examples.

You said, “We’ve been fighting about screens,” was one example. You also gave the example of, “You’ve been fighting a lot with your brother.”

So in the explain—10 to 20 seconds—choose one of those scenarios. After hearing your child, what would you say in that 10 to 20 seconds?

Dr. Justin: I did this just the other day with my 16-year-old daughter, Lily, who is on social media more than she should be. There’s been some tension and conflict.

I listened. She shared some ideas, and I said, “There are just a couple of things I want to run by you. Is that okay?”

She said, “Sure, Dad.”

I said, “Great. There are certain times when we’re trying to connect or have family time, and there are certain contexts where you’re on your device and we just can’t reach you.”

She looked at me and said, “Yeah, I know.”

I said, “Okay. The second thing I want to highlight is that we’ve noticed you’re sleeping in because, even though you’re not supposed to, you’ve been taking your phone into your bedroom at night and staying up late scrolling. Unless I’m reading it wrong, I’m pretty sure that’s what’s been happening.”

And she said, “No, I have been, Dad. You’re right.”

So it’s just two really succinct sentences where I’m stating what I’m seeing. I’m sharing my experience.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: If it were the sibling fighting, I’d say, “Yeah, your brother is really annoying. I get what’s going on. Sometimes I wish he didn’t live in our house as well.”

I might have a joke with them about the challenge associated with that.

And then I might say, “So when this happens, can I just share how it feels for me? It breaks my heart. I love both of you so very much, and my dream is for our family to enjoy being in one another’s company and to look forward to conversations and jokes and doing the things we do. When this stuff is going on, it feels like that’s a pipe dream.

“And secondly, psychologically—you know I’ve got this PhD in psychology—I know that there’s damage being done to the way your brother feels about himself. That’s what I’m worried about.”

So I’ve had both of those little conversations on two different topics, sharing two different things, and both were about 10 seconds each.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Again, it’s conversational. It’s not lecture-style.

Sarah: And it’s from the heart.

I can feel it, even though this is just an example you’re giving. I can feel that it’s from your heart—that you’re really being open and sharing with your child what your true concerns are.

You’re not trying to power over or control. You’re really sharing a heartfelt sentiment.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. Thank you. That’s the goal.

You won’t always do that, but that’s the goal.

The reason there’s a problem is because your values are not being upheld in the home, and you’re trying to communicate that in a way that shows you honor them and that they’ve got a brain.

Now, we’ve used two really grown-up versions—or teenage versions, I guess. But you can have the same conversations with three- and four-year-olds. It’s just shorter. It’s simpler.

Usually, with those conversations, in a pretty tight timeframe—60 to 90 seconds—you’ve done the whole process.

There is a higher-order—

Sarah: Okay, so what’s the third part?

Dr. Justin: Just before I get to that one, if you really want to do the advanced version of explain, what I’ll often do after I’ve explored with my child is say:

“Okay, so this is the bit where I’d normally explain what’s going on from my point of view. I wonder if you can tell me what you think I’m going to say here.”

Sarah: Ah.

Dr. Justin: And so I get them to explain the explain to me.

The reason that’s so effective is that whenever my mouth is the one that’s moving, my brain is the one that’s working.

If I can get their mouth moving, their brain is doing the heavy lifting.

Sarah: Love that.

Dr. Justin: That’s really, really effective.

And then the last one—

Sarah: Is empower.

And you’re also helping them see things and develop empathy, right? To see things from somebody else’s perspective.

Dr. Justin: Yes. Powerful.

The last one is empower.

That’s literally as simple as saying, “Okay, so I get where you’re coming from. We’ve had that conversation very thoroughly. You know what my challenge is here. What do you think we should do?”

“Where do we go from here? How do we solve this in a way that we can both feel good about?”

It’s true that every now and then, your child will shrug their shoulders and say, “I don’t know.”

Or they’ll shrug and say, “Well, we should just do what I want to do.”

And as a parent, that’s where you step in and say my favorite line:

“Don’t you just wish? Don’t you just wish we could?”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Because—well, let me ask you, Sarah. When I say, “Don’t you just wish,” or, “Wouldn’t it be good if we could?”—same thing—what have I actually said?

Sarah: Total empathy. Heaps of empathy.

Dr. Justin: Total empathy.

But I’ve also said something else really clearly.

Sarah: That that’s not going to work.

Dr. Justin: Correct. The answer is no.

But it’s a no with so much love, kindness, empathy, and gentleness in it—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —that your child goes, “Oh, yeah. I know.”

And then you say, “So let’s see if we can come up with a solution that will work.”

What else might work for you when it comes to your brother?

What else might work for you when it comes to the party on Friday night that I’m not willing to let you go to?

What else could work when it comes to our screen challenges? Because this is an ongoing issue for us, isn’t it?

Every now and then, you won’t get an answer right away. You’ll say, “Well, let’s talk about it again tonight,” or, “Let’s talk about it again tomorrow once you’ve had some time to think about it.”

But I’m big on deadlines.

“We need to have this worked out by the end of the weekend, okay? I don’t want to go through another week of this. We’ve got to find a solution. If we haven’t had another chat by tomorrow night, we’re going to sit down and work it out then.”

And I also don’t have a problem at this point—

Laura Walker is a researcher at BYU in Utah, and she did a study published in the Journal of Adolescence where she found that parents who use these kinds of strategies—she’s not talking about the Three E’s of Effective Discipline, because that’s the thing I developed, but it’s based on the same sort of theory that she researches—

Parents who use these kinds of strategies, even when they do have to step in and say, “All right, well, we haven’t come up with a solution, so it’s going to be my way,” kids are much more likely to be responsive and compliant—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: —because we’ve been through a process with them that is not autocratic. It’s not authoritarian.

They’ve felt like they had a voice. Their perspective has been seen and heard. They’ve had some input.

And even though they don’t get what they want all the time—because we’re the parents, and sometimes the fact that we’ve climbed 47 rungs on the ladder of life and they’ve only climbed 13 is all we need.

Sarah: That’s what I call in my work the goodwill bank.

When your kids experience you as collaborative, non-coercive, and not power-tripping—when they know, over the period of their childhood, that they can trust you to take their preferences into account and be respectful of them—then when you do have to say no about something, even if they don’t like it, there’s this goodwill bank behind you and this level of trust.

When you mentioned, “You can’t go to the party on Friday,” I never had that issue with my kids because everything was so collaborative.

We’d have similar conversations. I didn’t have—I’m not very good at thinking of things like the Three E’s—but similar kinds of processes where they’d say why they wanted to go, I’d say what my concerns were, and then they’d invariably say, “Oh, yeah, you’re probably right.”

It was never, “You can’t go.”

It was, “These are my concerns. This is what I’ve been thinking about.”

Because they experienced that whole process over years of parenting, you don’t get the pushback because they don’t feel like you’re power-tripping them.

Dr. Justin: Yeah.

Sarah, I had an experience with one of my adult children who was still living at home. I think she was maybe 19 or 20 when this happened.

She wanted to go and do something, and I said to her, “You’re an adult. You do get to choose for yourself whether you will do this or not, but I’ve got some really big concerns about you doing it.

“I actually think you’re putting yourself into a dangerous situation. There’s some history, some volatility, and some challenges if you go and involve yourself in this particular activity. Tell me why this is so important to you.”

So she walked me through it, and I said, “Okay, I get it. How do my concerns stack up against your desire to be there?”

And she said, “Dad, I get what you’re saying, but I want to go.”

And I said, “Okay, so…”

You used that beautiful term, the goodwill bank. I can’t remember exactly what my words were, but I’m going to use your term right now, because I essentially said:

“I’m going to use the goodwill I’ve built up with you over the last however many years and step in really firmly and say you’re making a mistake.

“As your dad, even though you’re an adult, I want to forbid you to go. That’s how strongly I feel about this. To the degree that I can, I forbid it.

“Ultimately, you will choose because you are an adult, but I don’t want you there.”

Sarah: I’m going on the record.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, yeah.

“I need you to trust that this is a bad idea. We can come up with any number of other activities you could do instead, with different people in a different location, but this is a bad idea, and you have none of my support should you go.

“If you go and something goes wrong, you call me and I’ll come rescue you. But it is a bad idea, and I forbid it.”

And I couldn’t believe I was saying those words. I’ve never said them in my life, and now I was saying them to an adult.

But she looked at me and said, “Okay.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: She didn’t fight me. She didn’t say, “I can do what—”

Sarah: No, because you built up the history with her of how she experienced you.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. She was like, “Wow, this is serious. He’s never said that before. If he feels that strongly, maybe he’s right. Maybe I need to find an alternative.”

So anyway, that’s the Three E’s of Effective Discipline.

I feel like I’ve talked too much, Sarah. I wanted to be much more conversational, but I get carried away when we—

Sarah: No, no. I love it.

I feel like it’s very complementary to the things that I teach, and you’ve given me some new things to teach parents as well.

I love having sort of snappy—the Three E’s of Discipline. I think that’s great. I love it. I’ll share it.

Dr. Justin: Yeah, please. Absolutely.

It’s helped so many millions of parents.

Sarah: Yeah.

Well, I love that we’ve connected across the world—from the other side of the world to each other—and I look forward to hopefully talking to you again in March of 2027 when your book Boys comes out.

I figured we were going to talk about that, but we had such a lovely conversation about peaceful parenting, discipline, and—oh my God, it’s gone right out of my head—

Dr. Justin: Self-determination theory.

Sarah: Self-determination theory.

I think it was a really great conversation, and I really appreciate you sharing all of your experience and wisdom.

Dr. Justin: I loved the conversation.

Like I said, it was too one-sided. I wish we’d been able to go backward and forward a bit more, but let’s do it again.

Let’s chat again next year when the book comes out, and we’ll talk about boys and how to help them.

There’s so much talk about toxic masculinity.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Wouldn’t it be great if we could give them a view of healthy masculinity—a model of that to follow?

That’s what my book is all about: how we can guide boys into a healthy form of masculinity.

Sarah: Well, for folks in Australia, your book is coming out in June 2026. For folks in North America, it’s not coming out until spring 2027.

So I will definitely be ringing you up and having you come back on to talk about the book when you’ve got your North American release. I know we’re going to have a great conversation then.

Before I let you go, though, I have a question that I ask all my podcast guests:

If you had a time machine and you could go back and tell your younger parent self something, what advice would you give yourself?

Dr. Justin: Jean-Jacques Rousseau said there is—I can’t remember the quote exactly—but: What wisdom is there that is greater than kindness?

I’ve paraphrased it. It’s not perfect, but it’s something along those lines.

Interestingly, Rousseau had, I think, five children—maybe six—and he put them all into orphanages somewhere in the first 18 months of their lives so he could spend more time writing and focusing on how to be a good person, which I just find criminal. I can’t believe it.

So take it for what it’s worth, but “What wisdom is there that’s greater than kindness?” is what Rousseau said.

I’ve mentioned this idea of soft eyes a couple of times. If I could go back, I would teach myself about kindness. I’d teach myself about many of the things we’ve talked about today.

But I just want to quickly share the story of soft eyes.

As an academic, I want everything I say to be evidence-based. There is no evidence that I’m aware of where people have done any kind of randomized controlled trial where parents are asked to interact with their children with soft eyes, neutral eyes, hard eyes, or anything like that.

Soft eyes is this idea—

I was giving a presentation at a public library one time, and an elderly lady stepped into the back of the room, sat down, and listened to the last 25 or 30 minutes of my presentation. She must have liked what she could hear from the corridor outside, and she stepped in to listen.

After everybody had left, she walked over to me and said, “I really enjoyed what you shared. I’d love to tell you something my grandmother said to me.”

So we’re going back into the early 1900s.

Her grandmother said, “Whenever you’re talking to your children about matters of discipline, make sure you have soft eyes.”

And I thought, I really like that.

Because if you try to have a conversation with somebody and your eyes are soft, you just can’t say mean things. You can’t say harsh things. You can’t have harsh thoughts.

If you soften your eyes, your face softens and your heart softens. You have this beautiful compassion and kindness, this ability to see the best in them rather than the worst in them, to assume positive intent.

There’s something gorgeous about soft eyes.

So I would go back and quote Rousseau better than I just quoted him to you, and I would tell my younger self that soft eyes will make a tremendous impact on all of my relationships.

Sarah: Ah.

There’s an American—I don’t know if you’ve heard of him in Australia—but he’s a pretty well-known marriage counselor, Terry Real.

Dr. Justin: Oh, yeah. I quote him in my book.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. He does a lot of work about—well, he says something like, “There’s nothing that harshness can accomplish that kindness can’t accomplish better.”

Dr. Justin: That’s so beautiful.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Justin: Thank you. That’s inspiring. I’m so glad you shared that.

Sarah: Yeah. I love it.

It’s hard to remember, but I think it is true. And I wish that—and I know the world needs a dose of that right now.

Dr. Justin: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: One hundred percent.

Well, thank you so much.

Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about you and what you do?

Dr. Justin: Probably my podcast, the Happy Families Podcast. My wife and I drop a 15-minute nugget of parenting wisdom every day, five days a week.

Sarah: Oh, wow!

Dr. Justin: Yeah. It’s a lot of content, but it’s bite-sized chunks, and it’s entertaining. We’re fun. We get to do it together.

And the Happy Families Podcast. I’ve got a website called happyfamilies.com.au, but basically, if you like what we’ve talked about—

Sarah: We’ll link to all of that in the show notes. We’ll link to your website and your podcast, and I’m sure it’s easy to find you.

Dr. Justin: That sounds great. Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah: Thank you so much.

Dr. Justin: What a great, great conversation. Lovely to be with you.

Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

👉 PSST- Are you currently parenting teens? Before we get into the podcast, I want to make sure you know that my Peaceful Parenting in the Teen Years group coaching course starts on Tuesday, May 5. Learn more and how to join us HERE.

Back to the podcast— You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I discuss peaceful parenting teens and tweens, including mindset shifts, connection strategies, sideways listening, and why the teen years can be joyful instead of scary.

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We talk about:

* 00:00 — Introduction: Peaceful parenting teens and tweens

* 01:02 — Why the teen years don’t have to be scary

* 02:39 — The importance of parents

* 04:48 — Don’t take teen behavior personally

* 06:32 — Responding to the feeling under the attitude

* 08:42 — Remembering how hard the teen years can feel

* 12:39 — Connection matters: “at what cost to the relationship?”

* 14:12 — Tip: sideways listening

* 15:41 — Tip: being a “potted plant”

* 17:51 — Tip: connect on their terms and timeline

* 21:17 — Why the teen years can be something to look forward to

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Peaceful Parenting in the Teen Years Course starting Tuesday, May 5th

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xx Sarah and Corey

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Sarah: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. I have Corey here with me today, and we are going to be talking about peaceful parenting teens and tweens. Welcome, Corey.

Corey: Thanks for having me.

Sarah: All right, Corey, we were just reminiscing about how long we’ve known each other, and you have known me for eight years now. So you’ve seen me through all of the teen and tween years. How are you feeling about when your kids are getting closer to those ages?

Corey: I actually feel really good about it, and I tell people this all the time. I think from watching you go through it and seeing how much you loved and enjoyed the teen years, I actually don’t feel nervous at all. I feel excited. I’m really enjoying watching my kids get older.

Sarah: That’s so great. Yeah. I guess Maxine was 10, Asa was 13, and Lee was 16 when we met each other. So you really have seen me through all of those years. And Maxine, I can’t believe it, she’s going to be 19 soon, so I’m almost done with the teen years.

And you know, it’s really interesting because when they were little, Jesse and I went, “Oh my gosh, we’re going to have three teenagers at the same time.” And teenagers get such a bad rap. Everyone’s always talking about, “Oh, just wait. Just wait until they’re teenagers.” And I thought teenagers were amazing. Those were some of our best years when they were teenagers, and really, it’s all because of peaceful parenting.

I don’t think my kids are unusual. I mean, I think they’re great, but I think they were pretty typical teenagers, and I just think it’s peaceful parenting.

Corey: Yeah. I can’t get over how often I hear that. All the time, everyone’s just being like, “What’s it going to be like when they’re teenagers?” It’s this fear. It’s this cultural thing where everyone’s terrified of them.

Sarah: Yeah, yeah. And teenagers can have a hard time. It’s interesting: I was looking at some of this research the other day, and there’s a study—actually, I think my dad sent this to me—about how the most protective factor for a teenager not getting into trouble or having issues when they’re teenagers is a warm relationship with parents. That’s the number one protective factor for how teenagers do.

So in peaceful parenting, it’s all about the relationship, right? It’s all about connection. Since we are talking about teens and tweens today, maybe we’ll talk about some of the mindset shifts that we need to make with teenagers and tweens, and then we’ll go over a couple of tips. How does that sound?

Corey: That sounds great.

Sarah: Great. And before we get too far into this, part of the reason we were talking about this is because I have a course coming up. It’s a small group coaching course. It’s part instruction, part coaching, about peaceful parenting teenagers. Because while the concepts are the same as peaceful parenting younger kids, there are some adjustments that we need to make for teenagers, and there are also special considerations for peaceful parenting teenagers.

So if anyone’s interested in that, it starts on Tuesday, on the first Tuesday in May—whatever the date is. And it will be recorded if you can’t make it live. If anyone’s interested in signing up, it’s for six weeks starting on this coming Tuesday. We’ll put a link in the show notes for more information and for signing up.

I only offer this once a year, and you really do need to have a teenager. Don’t sign up for this if your kid is 12 or 11. We’re really focusing on kids who are already teenagers. So check that out in the show notes if you’re interested in joining us.

Let’s talk about teens and tweens.

So, mindset. These are things that are really important to remember whether your kid is 4 or 14, but they’re especially important. I think peaceful parenting teenagers is like peaceful parenting on steroids.

Corey: That’s a really good way to describe it.

Sarah: Yeah. Everything that you need to do when your kid is younger, you need to do even more when they’re teenagers.

One of the things that I always remind clients and people—and reminded myself when my kids were teenagers—is: don’t take it personally. It can be so hard, I think, because they’re bigger and they look like adults in some ways, right? Even parents who find it easy not to take it personally if a four-year-old is like, “You’re the meanest mommy, and you’re not invited to my birthday party”—it’s easier for us not to take it personally when they’re little. But when your 14-year-old says, “I hate you,” or whatever, it can be really hard not to take it personally because they are bigger and more mature, and they seem like adults in so many ways.

Corey: And you’ve just invested so much time into that relationship.

Sarah: Yeah. And we have to remember, though, that their brain development is more similar to 4 than 14, and that’s something we’re going to get into in the course. But the way that the brain is developing, they’ve got big feelings, and the rational part of their brain is not as strong as it will become one day.

So really trying not to take it personally is so important when you’ve got a tween or a teen. And that brain transition that I was just talking about starts in the tween years, and then it continues on. My experience is that by around 15, kids are starting to smooth out a little bit with those big feelings.

Related to that, just like you would when your kid is four, try to ignore the attitude. I always say with teenagers, the drama is real, but we really need to try to ignore the attitude and respond to whatever the feeling is underneath. Again, this is all stuff that we talk about in the younger years, but with teenagers it’s even more important.

Corey: I’ve said to parents before, you know how you reacted so calmly when they said, “I want the blue cup, not the red cup,” or, “You cut my muffin wrong”? You sort of have to get back into that mentality, right? This is meaningful to them as teenagers.

Sarah: Yeah. Totally. If their hair looks bad, or the jeans they wanted to wear are in the wash, or whatever, it can be hard to remind ourselves of that.

The other big peaceful parenting idea that we really need to keep in mind, as much as we did when they were younger—and again, this is hard because they look mature. I think that’s one of the biggest things: they look mature, but they are not mature yet—is that they’re doing the best they can.

Corey: Yeah, totally. It’s exactly like when they’re little. You have to remember they really are doing the best they can. And when you think about it, think about us when we’re having those really big feelings. We’re still doing the best we can. So we have to give them that same sort of benefit of the doubt.

Sarah: Yeah, it’s hard. And it’s also hard because there’s probably in the back of the mind of most people who are listening and have teenagers this thought: “I can’t let them talk to me like this,” right? So that’s definitely something we’re going to go over in the course: how to respond.

It’s not that we are letting it go in the same way that we are with a four-year-old, but there’s a different way to respond that’s not going to be the traditional, quote, “discipline way.” So really having those skills of how to respond when you do get those big feelings, and reminding yourself that they’re doing the best they can, but also thinking about how you are scaffolding them to manage those feelings. That’s really important too.

I also think that we want to remember—I don’t know about you, but did you enjoy being 13 or 14?

Corey: Oh gosh, no.

Sarah: No, me either. Those were some of the most awful years. When everyone says, “Oh, to be young again,” I’m just like, “Thank goodness that I am through those years.” It was so hard to be a young teenager, or even an older teenager. So I think that when we have a teen or a tween, if we can remember how hard it can be to be that age, and just remember our own teen and tween years, that can really help.

Corey: I remember my mom used to say to me when I was super upset as a teenager something like, “Honestly, I wouldn’t go back if I could. It was just such a hard time.” And I remember that was the most comforting thing. I felt like she really did get that it was hard. There’s so much pressure because everyone always talks about the high school years being the best years of your life. So having someone just be like, “Actually, yeah, it is really hard,” is such an important thing to hear.

Sarah: When Maxine graduated from high school, she didn’t really like high school very much, and when she graduated, she said, “I’m glad I didn’t peak in high school.” I thought that was so funny.

Parents will often say to me—I’m thinking of this one client who is worried all the time. She thinks her daughter doesn’t have good self-confidence because her daughter is so concerned with what everyone else thinks about her. And I’m like, you know what? Honestly, that is part of being this age.

I remember once, one of my kids, when he was in, I think, grade nine, I bought these socks. They were from Winners, like the TJ Maxx/Winners type of store, and they were, I think, Nike socks with the little basketball player logo on them. Is that Nike? Anyway, whatever they were, they were plain white tube socks with the little Air Jordan basketball player logo on the ankle. They were just plain. Nothing special.

I brought them home, and he was like, “I can’t wear those socks.”

And I said, “Why not?”

And he said, “Because everyone’s going to look at them, and they’re going to say, ‘Why are you wearing those socks? You don’t play basketball.’”

And I was like, “Really? Are you kidding me?”

I don’t think anyone really would have said that, but that was his perception of being so under a magnifying lens that everyone was going to notice this, and he was going to get called out. It was just wild to me. I always think of that example of how they really feel so self-conscious, like everyone’s looking at them and judging them.

I don’t know. It’s actually making me feel a little anxious now, thinking about how I remember how hard that was. So I think really trying to remember our own teen and tween years is important. Maybe somebody listening had the best teen years ever, and more power to you if you did, but I think most of us can recall how difficult those years were.

I love that your mom said that to you because I think sometimes we forget. That’s why I’m reminding people. We forget sometimes because we get the golden glow of the past. I know some parents might say to their kids, “These are the best years of your life,” and how horrible would that be to hear from your mom when you were talking about having a hard time?

Corey: I often think about how I had to wear a uniform in high school, and I remember thinking that was the best thing ever because then you all looked the same, and it took off a level of pressure.

Sarah: Yeah.

Corey: For sure. So it really shows you that if they don’t have a uniform and they have to make all these choices, kids do seem to point out things about each other at this level of scrutiny that we just don’t have as adults.

Sarah: I remember I had a diary where I wrote down the outfits that I wore so that I wouldn’t repeat an outfit.

Corey: Oh my goodness.

Sarah: I know. Isn’t that awful? I was worried that people would say, “Why are you wearing that? You wore that last week.” Now I wear the same thing every day and nobody cares.

Corey: Me too. I actually realized I’ve gone back to a uniform because I found that so comforting in high school.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s so hard.

Okay, so let’s talk about some tips. There’s actually a lot more in mindset, but I want to get to some tips. In the course, we’re going to go over a lot more nuts and bolts about hygiene, diet, exercise, rules, guiding them, autonomy—there’s a lot that we’re going to talk about. Sex and drugs and alcohol. And because it’s a small group, I can also cater it to whatever people feel they need.

It’s about half full right now as we’re taping it, but I would love to be able to work more deeply with whoever’s listening to this.

So let’s go on to some tips. These are basically connection tips, and one thing that I repeat over and over again in the course is: at what cost to the relationship?

I’ll tell the story again. I know you’ve heard it a million times, but when my oldest son was in high school, he said, “Mom, so many of my friends don’t answer their phones when their parents call, or they don’t tell their parents where they are. Some of them don’t even go home at night.”

And then he said, sort of disdainfully, “You’re really lucky that I care what you and Dad think.”

I realized that is so much of peaceful parenting, right? Peaceful parenting teenagers is that relationship.

So let’s go over some tips for connection, and we’ll get to some nuts and bolts here.

Have you ever heard of sideways listening?

Corey: Yes. And you know what? I think this is actually one of the things I recommend to people the most after hearing you teach this, because I think it is the easiest.

Sarah: Why don’t you explain it?

Corey: Sideways listening is setting up an environment with your kid where they can talk to you and where there’s low pressure. You’re side by side. This could be driving somewhere in the car, going for a walk, sitting and playing video games with them, or doing dishes together. It’s any low-pressure environment where you don’t have to look each other in the face and feel the intensity of, “We’re having a big conversation now.” It just takes that whole level down.

Or even just lying with them in bed, if they want to lie beside you in bed. Even teenagers still like to do that sometimes.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. I think that’s also probably a tip that works for anyone who’s not comfortable with eye contact.

Corey: Oh gosh, that’s me.

Sarah: Yeah. Some of our parents listening might have neurodivergent kids who aren’t comfortable with eye contact, and they’ve probably discovered that those situations where you’re not looking at someone are when kids tend to open up.

And that’s also, I think, why with kids of all ages, you get the bedtime dump of what’s happened in their day, right?

So sideways listening. Really setting up some opportunities for that can be great for teens and tweens.

Okay. Next, I’ll do this like a quiz for you. Do you know what being a potted plant refers to?

Corey: Okay, so I think this is what a parent I was working with recently talked about, where they said, “I feel like I’m not having a lot of connection with my child, but I just make sure I’m always around. I’m there in the morning when they’re getting ready. I’m there when they get home from school. I’m just around and available.”

Sarah: Yeah. Basically, it’s being a presence that is not demanding. You’re there, and you’re sharing space. I like to think of it as sharing space.

For us, it was pretty easy because our house isn’t very big and there were a lot of people in the same room as each other. It’s funny too, because when Jesse and I were mapping out how we wanted our family and our lives to be, and how we were going to work things out with working and stuff, we both talked about how we really wanted, if possible—and I’m not trying to make anyone feel bad if this isn’t what they’re doing—to have somebody there when kids came home from school.

Our joke was, “Even if it’s just somebody for our teenagers to ignore.” That was our joke, even before they were teenagers. When they were still little, we were like, “We’ve got to have somebody around for them to ignore when they come home from school.”

And that’s sort of how I think of the potted plant, right? You’re there. You’re sharing space. They can ignore you if they want, but that’s still important.

I think a lot of parents of teens and tweens forget that because they think their kids don’t need them and don’t want them around, but they really do. The idea that teenagers don’t want you and don’t want to spend time with you is not true at all.

If you have a good relationship, their friends are going to be important and their peers are important, but they do still need you and want you. Part of how we can let them know that we’re there, unobtrusively, is just being in the same room. Think of yourself as a potted plant.

Credit goes to Lisa Damour, I think. I’m 99% sure, but we’ll double-check that. I think Lisa Damour is the one who coined that phrase, “Be a potted plant.”

Corey: I love that because both those suggestions, the sideways listening and the potted plant, are both about not being a demanding presence. I love that.

Sarah: Yeah. Unobtrusive.

I keep wanting to give so many tips. We could do this for hours and hours, but we’ll keep it to two more.

One thing that is really important to remember for connecting is: connect on their terms. Your kids are probably still in the age, or at least your younger one is probably still in the age, where they’re more demanding about wanting to show you something or tell you something. If you say, “Let me finish this thing first,” they’re going to come right back and want to show you their picture or whatever.

Teenagers don’t do that. So if you have a teenager and they want to tell you something, and you say, “I’ve got to finish this email first,” then you go back to them and they’ll be like, “Never mind.”

It’s really about connecting on their terms and on their timeline whenever possible. It might be impossible sometimes, but whenever you can, put down what you’re doing and connect on their terms.

I remember once my middle son, he was probably 12 or 13, was really into snowboarding videos—watching snowboarding stuff on YouTube or whatever. He had it set up on the TV, and he was like, “Mom, come and watch these snowboarding videos with me.”

That was really, honestly, the last thing I wanted to do: watch snowboarding videos. But I said, “Okay,” and I went and sat down on the couch. By half an hour later, he was snuggled up on me, Corey. He was holding my arm and had his head on my shoulder. My big, almost six-foot-tall 13-year-old was snuggled up watching the videos with me.

That never would have happened if I had just thought, “Do I want to watch the snowboarding videos?” So that’s something that’s really helpful.

Corey: That makes so much sense. I was talking about this with a client. They were saying that their child seems to be really into TV, but this client says they’re not a big TV watcher. Become one.

Sarah: Yeah.

Corey: Just sit down and, whatever it is that they’re watching, see if you can find a show that you can get really into with them. That’s the perfect way to connect, even if you’re not into that TV show. I was saying that I really notice that’s something you’ve done to connect with your teenage daughter. I was just telling you before we started about these shows.

Sarah: Yeah. I was just telling you before we started taping that we’re working our way through, we’re on the end of season five of Gossip Girl.

Corey: Ooh.

Sarah: I hate to even start to think about how many hours we’ve spent watching that show. I have a little bit of, “Okay, maybe I don’t want to figure out how many hours we’ve spent watching that show.”

But yeah, especially with my daughter, we’ve watched a lot of series together over the years, from Gilmore Girls to Sex Education. That’s definitely something that is, you know, finding that commonality is something that’s really great to do.

So yes, really trying to connect on their terms. That’s the last tip that we’re going to talk about.

I hope to be able to share more of this wisdom that I’ve had because honestly, my kids are so great. I know everybody thinks their kids are great, but I don’t think that people who raise their kids without peaceful parenting have the same kind of relationship that people do who raise them with peaceful parenting. Really, honestly, I think a lot of people are finding that if they didn’t raise them with peaceful parenting, maybe they don’t talk to them very much or see them very much.

I just want to give a shout-out to this kind of parenting for what kind of relationship it helps you build with your kids.

Corey: I think so too. It was interesting because I keep telling people that you have something to look forward to as they get older. Everyone just gets so sad and is constantly mourning each phase that they leave behind. I’m like, it’s totally normal to mourn that, but I think if you are peacefully parenting, you also can be excited about the future that you’re going to have, that this isn’t going to just end after 18 years.

I think this is a beautiful window of time where a lot of parents think it’s their time to check out, but it’s their time to really check in.

Sarah: Yeah. And there’s something on social media where people say, “You only have 18 summers.” But I think if you do peaceful parenting, you have way more than 18 summers.

My kids go on vacations with us. My 21- and 25-year-old will take a week off of work in the summer and go on vacation with us, or go visit my dad in Florida. Granted, it’s Florida, but still, it’s not a big fancy anything. They want to spend time with us.

I was just texting you the other day when I was sending you those videos of Asa and his bike race, and I think I said something like, “Honestly, how awesome my kids are as people and how much I enjoy them almost makes up for them growing up.” The fact that they’re cool, interesting grown-ups who actually give me advice and are “let’s meet for lunch” types of people almost makes up for them flying the nest.

Corey: It’s true. It does feel hard, so just embracing this precious time, I guess.

Sarah: Yeah. Okay. Well, again, we’ll put the link in the show notes if anyone wants to go deeper. Hopefully, you’ve got a great place to start with all of the things we talked about today, but if you want to go deeper and get some personal support inside the Peaceful Parenting with Teens course, we’ve got it linked in the show notes.

Let us know if you have any questions. And if you don’t have teens or tweens yet, keep all this stuff in your back pocket and remind yourself of it when your kids get older.

Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you for having me. And I’ll put in the show notes that you did write a blog post about this that I think is really great too, so I’ll make sure that’s in the show notes for everyone.

Sarah: Awesome. Thanks, everyone.

👉 PSST- Dealing with anxiety in your family? Or want to know what to do so it doesn’t become an issue? Before we get into the podcast, I want to make sure you know about the workshop I’m teaching How to Become an Anxiety-Resilient Family: What actually helps kids handle anxiety (and what unintentionally makes it worse) All the details are HERE

Back to the podcast— You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Martina Nova, author of Same Page Parenting, talks about co-parenting, postpartum mental health, conflict, invisible labor, gender roles, and how couples can stay connected while raising kids.

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We talk about:

* 00:00 Introduction to Martina Nova and Same Page Parenting

* 02:00 Why parenting conversations are about more than logistics

* 04:00 Common issues couples do not realize they need to discuss

* 06:00 Postpartum mental health for both parents

* 08:00 How parenting brings up our own childhood patterns and trauma

* 13:00 Why little kids can be so hard on relationships

* 16:00 Feeling touched out, disconnected, and like roommates

* 18:00 How to start rebuilding connection with your partner

* 20:00 Conflict styles and how to handle conflict better

* 23:00 Gender roles, invisible labor, and what kids learn from us

* 29:00 Why involving kids in home life matters

* 32:00 The deeper goal of the book: connection between co-parents

* 34:00 Where to find Martina and her work

* 35:00 Advice Martina would give her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Martina’s website

* Martina’s Book Same Page Parenting

* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Evelyn & Bobbie bras

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xx Sarah and Corey

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Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Martina Nova. She’s a clinical therapist and author of the new book Same Page Parenting: Align with Your Partner to Raise Happy, Confident, and Resilient Kids.

Martina wrote this book because she realized, through her own experience as a parent and through her work with couples, that it can be really hard to find ways to talk about, and as she puts it, get on the same page with your partner about many of the issues that come up for us as we raise kids. We discussed some of these common issues, like how you connect after kids, how you handle conflict, and why relationships after kids can be so hard.

We also discussed how we teach kids about these issues and others, such as gender roles, whether we mean to be teaching them or not. If you find this episode helpful, please share it with a friend.

If you’re a fan of the podcast, please take a minute to rate and review us on your podcast player app. Remember, if you want the podcast ad-free, you can support us on Substack for less than $10 a month. Not only do you get the podcast ad-free, you get access to Q and As with me and discounts on workshops.

You also get the satisfaction of knowing that you’re helping to support us as we change the world through peaceful parenting. We’ll put the link to support us on Substack right here in the show notes, or you can just search up my name and Substack and you’ll find us. Let’s go ahead and meet Martina.

Hi Martina, welcome to the podcast.

Martina: Hi Sarah. Thanks so much for having me.

Sarah: Tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do, and then tell us about your new book.

Martina: Of course. My name is Martina. I am a therapist in Vancouver, BC. I’m also a mom of two little ones, and I’m a co-parent as well.

So I recently wrote a book called Same Page Parenting, which I started thinking about toward the end of my last pregnancy, and it kind of developed when my youngest was really little. But it’s a book that I wrote in order to help a lot of people have conversations about parenting that we don’t realize we need to have.

It’s not just about how many diapers are we gonna go through, who’s gonna wake up for night feedings, what kind of onesies should we buy, but things about how do we understand how our upbringing influences so many different categories of parenting, how we show up emotionally for our children, how society shapes our views on certain things, how our own neurodiversity might come into play when we’re trying to regulate ourselves and be there for our kids, or even some views about gender roles or other assumed expectations that we don’t even know would be helpful to talk about before or during parenthood.

Sarah: I’ve always said that there should be some sort of test, or some way to know how your partner will be as a parent and the things that will come up, because you really can’t know. A lot of stuff comes up after you have kids that you wouldn’t even have known to talk about, or how having children was gonna affect you and affect your relationship. So this, as far as I know, no one’s developed a test yet, but this is a good substitute.

Probably everyone listening to this already has kids because it’s a parenting podcast. But this would be a great baby shower gift or something for someone, for them to talk with their partner about all of these things before, when they have maybe a little bit more leisure and time to sort of figure out how they’re gonna handle things.

One thing I do like about your book—the way it’s structured, I’ll just tell people, is you have a topic and then you have a sort of a brainstorm of questions for each age of parenting. Like, if you’re pregnant, these are some questions you might think about. If you have preschoolers, or if you have middle schoolers, or if you have adult children. And so you kind of go through all the ages and how each of the topics that you’re talking about, the kind of questions that might come up around that.

So it’s—and you said in your introduction you can skip around, go to the chapter that you need right now. It’s a very interesting and different parenting book. It’s not like any other parenting book that I’ve ever seen, which is a good thing. I think it will be very helpful for people. I imagine you are getting good feedback.

Martina: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate you saying that and talking about the format as well. Part of it is, as a clinical counselor, I work a lot with couples, and a lot of the time people come to therapy because they want the therapist to tell them what to do, or they want the books to tell them what to do.

But one of the things that I wanted to try to steer away from in the book is actually telling people exactly what to do. Instead of telling them, “This is how you should parent,” it’s, “Ask your co-parent, your partner, your grandparents, your community—whoever you’re gonna raise your kids with—what’s your idea about this? How do you wanna do it?” as opposed to me telling you exactly what to do. So that’s also what makes it different, for sure.

Sarah: Yeah. I think your next project, you should do some cards or something. Do a deck of cards.

Martina: A lot.

Sarah: Like the Fair Play—you mentioned Fair Play in your book. Eve Rodsky was on the podcast years ago, but she has that deck of cards that go along with her book. So you could put out cards and quick references for people—almost like a conversation starter.

Martina: I love it. Such a great idea. I’ll quote you if that ends up happening.

Sarah: Okay, good.

What are some of the things—I mean, this probably roughly correlates to your chapter topics—but what are some of the things that are maybe the most overlooked issues that come up when people have kids that sort of become sticking points or issues in their relationship that you’ve seen and that you write about?

Martina: Good question. The first thing that comes to my mind—because I’m a therapist and I heavily work with trauma, so I’m biased—is mental health.

A lot of the time, I know from personal experience and from a lot of clients I work with, things like baby blues or postpartum depression are handed to you in a pamphlet right after you’ve just given birth, and you’re told to look out for these signs. But you’re not being followed up with. Even midwifery care is about, “How are we physically doing? How is the baby doing? How are your stitches healing up?”

But postpartum mental health for both partners is so important. And so I think that’s a really overlooked part of it because it’s not only the hormonal fluctuations and changes; it’s the lifestyle changes, the isolation that you’re gonna experience. It could be trauma that comes up from your past about being somebody that someone has to depend on fully. Or it could be not getting support from your partner because your partner’s also struggling with their mental health, but nobody’s talking about it because we don’t know how to talk about it. We don’t know what to look out for.

So that’s, I think, one of the biggest chapters, is postpartum mental health for both—especially if we’re in a heteronormative partnership where, a lot of the time, the man in the relationship, it’s, “Well, we’re all good,” and the kind of conversations we have with our buddies are just very surface level. And therefore we don’t even get to talking about how are we really doing, what are we feeling, how needed, et cetera.

Sarah: Yeah. I think a lot of people aren’t aware that those sort of postpartum feelings can affect the dads as well as the moms. So that’s a good thing to be aware of and be talking about too—how everyone’s doing and their mental health.

You have the chapter on mental health, and then you also have a chapter on trauma-informed parenting. My partner and I, the other day, were talking about when we had kids. We were 30 when we had kids, and I sort of wish we had had them earlier. And he said, “I could have used more time, actually, to work on myself before having kids.” And I was like, “You know what? I think that there are certain things that just, no matter how old you are and how much work you’ve done, there are things that come out when you have kids that would never have come out before you had kids.”

I think some of that stuff, for us, it only comes up when we have kids, no matter how old we are when we have them. Why do you think that is? And is there anything that anyone can do to be better prepared for the things that do come up when you become a parent?

Martina: Such a good question. I think a few reasons. When we have kids, it challenges so many parts of who we are. It challenges not only, physiologically, biologically, how much sleep we get, how our schedules are shortened, the types of social connections we are now having or needing to cut. It also starts to challenge our own parenting of how we were parented as kids.

If we don’t do a lot of that reflection work beforehand—and unless you regularly go to therapy or read a lot of self-reflection books on early attachment experiences and things like that—we aren’t gonna really reflect and see, “Okay, well, why do I feel so irritated when my kid pushes away the food that I make for them, or is defiant against me, or doesn’t listen to what I say? Why is that in and of itself so infuriating?”

Unless we’ve dug in or asked some of the right questions beforehand, we are gonna go to our default, or how we were parented as kids from our parents.

I think, if you add on top of that neurodiversity as well—ADHD, I have it, and I’m quite certain one of my kids has it as well—we’re also already going to be stretched so thin. So some of this work as well, especially with so many late-diagnosed adults coming out with different types of neurodiversities, we’re like, “Okay, so this is why I’m so irritated when my kid does this, because I also have this within myself, and this is how it was treated by my parents. And it wasn’t treated with understanding or compassion or space or regulation or tools. It was treated with discipline and fear.”

So I think part of that is we don’t know what we don’t know until we’re faced with it and we feel distress and annoyance. But some of the things that we could definitely do is, if we can go to therapy, even if there’s nothing inherently wrong right now, we can go to therapy to help somebody understand the roadmap of our life.

What’s your relationship like with yourself? What’s your relationship like with your parents? How were you raised? Was there any emphasis on emotions and regulation? How does society systemically push us into gender roles and expectations and tell us what we should be doing with our bodies postpartum to look good, to feel good, to feel connected? So I think unless we go searching for some of this stuff, it’s not inherently in any of our baby prep courses or any pamphlets.

Sarah: I still think, though—and I think your answer supports my thesis—I still think that even if you’d done a lot of therapy, you’d done a lot of work, I don’t think anyone can be prepared for how they get triggered by their kids and by their own past and their own stories until they’re actually in that.

I’ve had people who I coach who are kindergarten teachers, and they’re like, “I’ve been working with little kids for 20 years and I’m really patient and great with kids, and I have never once felt the rage that I feel toward my kids, toward any of my most challenging students that I’ve had in 20 years of being a kindergarten teacher,” because I think it’s just different somehow. There’s something in our own kids that bring up all of those unresolved issues.

I guess I was curious if you thought that there’s any way you can resolve them beforehand, but your answer sort of tells me that probably not.

Martina: Not resolve them, but become more aware of them. I’m a therapist, I do my own therapy, I work with a lot of people, but this morning I was getting so agitated with both of my kids. I literally had to just close the bathroom and deep breathe and look at myself in the mirror and be like, “You are about to lose it, so take a deep breath because this is really hard right now.”

And I felt rage and I felt annoyance and I was sensory overloaded and there was defiance happening. I’m a therapist. I could, in theory, use all my tools in the present moment and just know how to validate and regulate. But no, I don’t know how to do that either as a therapist.

Sarah: We’re all human, even therapists.

Martina: Totally.

Sarah: You’ve got little kids still, and my husband and I often reflect—because I mentioned to you before we started that my kids are grown up—and we often reflect, “It’s amazing that we didn’t get divorced when our kids were little.” It was through sheer stubbornness, I think. Neither of us wanted to throw in the towel at the same time. We’re both really stubborn people, and I’m glad that we made it through to the other side.

I’ve noticed, just anecdotally, that having little kids is really hard on a relationship, no matter how many years people have been together or how good their relationship is going in. Why do you think that is? With your experience, or with your experience working with couples, why do you think it is so hard to make that transition and not even just the transition—I would say transition plus then life with small humans?

Martina: Every relationship is different before having kids. But what I found and noticed is, once we have kids, it’s less about, “What can we do for one another to make the other person happy?” or “How do we respond to each other’s bids for connection?” or “How do we plan the next fun thing that we’re going to do?” It’s not just, “How do we fuel our relationship?”

Especially in those early postpartum years, there’s so much strain that comes into, now we are needing a lot of things from one another, and we are asking for support. Sometimes the conversations that used to be about, “What are our dreams and hopes for our relationship?” or “What are we gonna do?” become, “Okay, I’m gonna need you to do this, this, and this.” So we become transactional. It becomes a lot harder.

And again, intentionality—unless we are very aware and we learn about some of these terms or learn about how kids do start to make an impact in our relationship—we are gonna fall into roles where we are gonna feel maybe more like roommates.Or we are gonna feel like we are now existing to serve our kids, as opposed to, who do we say hi to first that walks through the door?

Sarah: It’s so hard because, as I was reading your book, I realized that through trying to meet the emotional connection—physical and emotional connection—needs of my kids when they were growing up, it also met a lot of my emotional needs. Not in a weird, creepy way, but you spend a lot of time connecting with someone and cuddling with someone, and you can’t help but fill your own needs for connection and cuddling.

I think my husband probably felt left out a lot. He was a really good dad, but I think he felt left out from me. Not left out of his relationship with the kids, but I think he was probably like, “Hey, what happened to my wife that used to be so cuddly and sweet to me?” And I just didn’t feel like I had much left over after meeting the needs of three kids.

I hear you saying being intentional, maybe recognizing that that’s what’s going on. But is there anything else that you’ve seen successful couples do that make it through that time period?

Martina: Yes, Sarah. That’s so normal. In some spaces we call it being touched out. And touched out doesn’t always mean, “I’m so touched out, I can’t fathom another touch on my skin.” It is, “I’ve had my sensory needs met for the day, and now this feels like too much for me.”

Some of the things that would be helpful is, the essence of the book really is: the more conversations we can have about things like the invisible mental load, about how are we feeling intimately with one another—there’s a whole chapter on intimacy postpartum in the book as well that talks about how if sex was the main way that you connected before having kids, and now whether it’s for timing or hormonal or physical healing or for whatever reasons, that gets in the way afterwards—if sex is taken off the table for 1, 2, 3, however many months, or just reduces, we’re also not gonna feel close to our partner.

If we don’t have the words to share or have the questions to ask, like, “Hey, have you been feeling connected to me lately? How are you doing? What’s going on? Is there anything I can do for you that would make you feel really special? If you don’t wanna be touched, do you wanna just share one thing that we appreciate about each other today?” So it’s about being flexible and talking about why else am I overwhelmed at the end of the day? What do you have on your plate that I don’t? And therefore, how can I help you with that? So we’re still a team and we’re still talking about these things, as opposed to letting it just slowly drift away and waiting for the other person to bring something up.

Sarah: If someone’s listening to this and they feel like, “Oh, that’s me”—a lot of couples I work with have sort of turned into that teammates-roommates thing, and they don’t feel that connected to their partner anymore—do you have any suggestions for how to get back to a place where you’re feeling connected with your partner?

Martina: Good question. Two things I would say. Firstly, if someone listening to this is reflecting, “I’ve actually felt really disconnected from my partner lately,” instead of just right away saying to their partner that this is how they’re feeling, I would first say, have that person reflect on, “Well, what would connective feel like for you right now? What is it that you miss about your partner?”

Is it acts of service? Do you wish your partner would support you with more things? Is it certain types of physical activities? So I would probably get that person to first reflect on what do they feel like they’re missing.

Then, when we can come to our partners and frame it in a way not of, “You don’t touch me anymore. You don’t talk to me anymore”—not the “you”—but we keep it to the “I”: “I’ve been reflecting lately and I actually feel really lonely, and I miss you and I miss us.”

If our partner says, “Well, what can I do?” then you say, “Well, I think what would be really helpful is...” and then we can list the things, whether it’s maybe at nighttime we can ask each other a couple questions before we go to bed each night. Like, what was your favorite thing about today? What’s something you’re proud of for today? What do you look forward to tomorrow? What’s something you appreciate that I did today?

These small rituals of connection that the Gottmans talk about a lot can be helpful in that moment as well. So that’s what I would recommend.

Sarah: Nice.

One other thing—I mean, this is sort of the flip side of connection—is conflict. You do have a chapter in your book about conflict. I think when we have kids, it’s like everything feels like it’s in a pressure cooker and we don’t realize that maybe our conflict styles are a mismatch until we’ve already kind of gotten into it.

What are some ways that you find work for couples to handle conflict better?

Martina: I like that you brought up conflict style, because it really is a style. We don’t realize it, but we have a default setting on how we deal with conflict a lot of the time.

Part of the essence of the book as well is, if we can recognize, how do I usually approach conflict? Do I shut down? Is that my freeze response? And shut down doesn’t mean stonewalling, where I’m intentionally pushing you out. It’s, am I so overwhelmed with the conflict that I freeze up and my mind is blank and I actually can’t think? Or do I fawn? Do I people-please in conflict? Whereby maybe I’ll say, “Hey, could you help with the dishes more?” My partner shuts me down and I go, “Okay, never mind. It wasn’t even a big deal. I don’t need anything.”

So we just placate, we take over. Do we fight back immediately? Do we attack? Do we criticize? What do we usually do?

Firstly, I would say, if you’re listening to this and you’re trying to figure out, “Well, what is my conflict style? What do I usually do?”—do I do any of those responses?—you can only control your side of the conflict. So we can’t say, “Help teach your partner how to listen to you better or how to respond better.”

But if it’s, “I’m noticing that in conflict I tend to shut down,” I’m going to learn some regulation strategies, or I’m going to mention it to my partner in a time where we’re not in conflict. I’ll say, “Hey, I notice I shut down a lot when we have conflict. It’s not that I don’t care; I’m actually really overwhelmed. So in those moments, I’m gonna try my best to tell you, ‘Hey, I’m flooded right now and I need a minute,’ and I’m gonna go splash some cold water on my face or squeeze a stress ball or do some deep breaths. Just so you know, I’m working on this.”

Vice versa, if the other person also shuts down or gets defensive or reactive, there are a lot of scripts and a lot of ways we can approach conflict in a more structured way. But for now, it would be addressing what’s our nervous system response to the conflict that then makes us more present to have conversations that we can then repair afterwards.

Sarah: I love that.

Okay. You have a chapter on looking at gender roles. My husband and I had pretty—even though we’re both feminists—we had pretty traditional gender roles. He worked, I stayed home for the first 12 years with my kids. I was always worried that they weren’t gonna see me as important or competent as their dad, who was going out with a briefcase every day.

It was interesting because this came up with a couple that I coach, and the dad stays home and the mom works. He was talking about that the kids think that he doesn’t contribute—“Mom’s the one who makes the money,” and whatever. Their kids are older.

I thought, well, that’s really interesting. Maybe it’s not as much of a gender issue. It’s gender combined with capitalism, not just gender stuff, but capitalism too. Whoever makes the money is the one that’s more valuable. Sorry, I just started to go on a rant.

Anyhow, it was something that I grappled with, and something that I think a lot of people do grapple with. What are some suggestions that you have for—I guess I don’t think it is, I mean it can be a couple relationship issue—but what I’m interested in is your thoughts on how it affects our kids. I wanted them to grow up and think women can do anything men can do, and not like, moms should stay home and dads should work, if we’re talking about a heterosexual relationship. But if you’re not living that, what are some ways that you can still instill those kind of values?

And I guess you could touch on the money thing too. Whether your gender roles are traditional staying home and working, or whether one parent makes a lot more money and the kids think that parent is the more important parent. They may be related or not, but I would love you to talk about both, if you can.

Martina: Such a good question. I love that you bring up feminism.

First of all, let’s go with the first part about how do we instill diversity in gender roles and expectations when maybe we do follow a more traditional structure of what typically we would see.

First off, I think both parents have a part to play here because we can’t control what messages our kids are going to receive outside of our home. But we can control, as much as we try, what we show them on the inside. So what that might mean is not just showing what visible labor looks like in a home, such as dad’s coming home with a briefcase—if we’re talking about heteronormative partnerships—coming home with a briefcase, dad’s the one managing the finances, let’s say. We ask dad, “Can we buy this? Can we do this? Can we go here?” We start to maybe go deeper into how do we perpetuate those ideas.

As opposed to maybe we have rounds of appreciation at home, or we say, “Dad, thank you so much for going to work and for making money. It’s really helpful because it allows us to buy X, Y, Z. Mom, thank you so much for being here and taking care of our home. And look how much work it is to take care of a home.”

This could be led by the dad, where the dad talks about, “Here’s all the incredible things that your mom does for us. She cooks, and cooking isn’t just cooking. She goes through the fridge and looks at everything we have and sees what’s expired. What do I need to buy for this recipe? She goes to the store, she gets what you guys need.” If we’re talking really traditional gender norms here, she’s going to be the one who’s taking the time out of her day, making sure that nothing burns, being really attentive to the food, plating the food—breaking it down to see, whoa, this is actually a lot of work to even just get a meal on the table.

Sarah: So making the invisible labor visible, basically, as you’re talking about.

Martina: Exactly. And we can do this with our young kids as well, with our young boys. How do we instill what does actually invisible labor mean and teach them and say the invisible labor is often the labor in the home that is routinely done while you’re at school, while you’re sleeping, that you don’t see? Here’s what it takes to run a home. And do you know who usually does that in our home? This is the person who does that. Isn’t that a lot?

So we’re already showing our young kids so that when they’re partners one day, to not just see on the outside visibly what we’re noticing, but breaking down the invisibleness that they’re not there to witness.

Sarah: I think, too, Michaeleen Doucleff’s book Hunt, Gather, Parent—do you know that parenting book?

Martina: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: She was actually on the podcast too. One of the themes of her book is that we’ve gotten so far into adult world and kid world. Kid world is the science center and birthday parties and going to the playground, and the adult world is all the work that we have to do at home to get meals and laundry and cleaning and stuff. She really advocates for bringing the kids into the adult world more than people do typically. I’m completely paraphrasing her work.

But it strikes me that that’s one of the things that—I mean, she talks about it in the context of having kids be more helpful, that we can’t just do all the things and then expect them to wanna help us when they’re older, when they haven’t been involved all along. And it strikes me that that’s part of the answer too, in terms of when you want everybody’s job in the family to be seen more as equally important, is involving the kids in what the stay-at-home parent, or the person who’s carrying more of the domestic load, is doing. So the kids don’t see it as just something that happens when we’re napping, or when we’re at school, or when we’re sleeping.

Martina: Absolutely. Being really intentional about it.

I’ll see it in my practice as well, where I have grown men having such demand avoidance to doing anything related to laundry. Nine times out of ten, when we talk about growing up—what chores did you have in the home? Did you do your own laundry? Did you help around the home?—it’s no, we didn’t.

So it not only helps our kids see it, it helps them when they grow up and they’re older to fight against some of that demand avoidance of, “Don’t tell me what to do. I’ve never done this. I don’t understand it. It feels really big. It’s uncomfortable.” As opposed to, “This is just something that I’ve now been desensitized to doing, and I understand how to separate my laundry. I understand what kind of detergent to use on wool.” Things like that, that unless we show them, you’re a hundred percent right, or we intentionally do it when they’re sleeping or when they’re at school, they’re not even gonna know.

Sarah: I still don’t let anyone do my laundry. I just don’t trust that they’re gonna do it right. Whether it’s my kids or my partner, I like to do my own laundry. Putting it away, though—that is another thing altogether.

Was there anything that I didn’t ask you about that you were hoping I was gonna ask you, that you wanna share about what you learned writing this book, or what you think is really important for parents who are listening to know about?

Martina: Good question. I think the most important thing with the book—and the takeaway I’m hoping—is, every parenting book will say nobody’s perfect and no parenting strategy is perfect. But with this one specifically, the goal of the book isn’t that you’re going to read it and you’re gonna be so ready for every single challenge that comes ahead, even before you have kids.

It seems like it’s framed toward parenting and how to be the best parent to your kids, which it is. But a bigger part of the book is actually, how do I become more connected to my co-parent, to my partner, to my spouse? And you can use these questions to talk with your family—how you want your parents to show up for your kids even, which is a whole other can of worms.

Sarah: Yeah.

Martina: But I think that’s a big part of it: when we become parents, we can feel so lonely in our relationship when we are not asking each other questions. It can really disconnect us. And our kids are watching us on how we model connection and conflict and conversations.

So if there are some of these questions that you’re like, “I really liked how this conversation went,” why don’t we actually in front of the kids—if you have a conflict but only do the repair behind closed doors, your kids are never gonna see what repair is like. So let’s reenact that repair in front of the kids. You can use some of these questions and, if it’s age appropriate, ask them in front of your kids. They can see, “Huh, my parents are asking each other a lot of really cool questions. Maybe one day in my partnership we could ask each other some of these cool questions too, and we’re not just living alongside one another.”

Sarah: Love it. As I said, I think this would be just an awesome baby shower present, your book. A lot of people will ask me that, like, “My daughter’s having a baby. Do you know any parenting books I should give them?” And I’m like, well, you don’t really need a parenting book yet when you have a baby. But I think your book would be a great place to start for people to just have these conversations. So, well done.

Where’s the best place for people to go and find out more about you and what you do? We’ll put links in the show notes, and we’ll also put a link to your book in the show notes.

Martina: Absolutely. So I have an Instagram account, NovaCare Therapy. My website is novacaretherapy.ca. Both of those places have some free resources. I’ve curated a feminist postpartum support guide that’s free. There are links to purchasing Same Page Parenting, which could be through Amazon, Audible, Kindle, your local bookstore if it carries it, but also I think Barnes and Noble has it. So a lot of different resources are listed on those websites.

Sarah: Great.

A question that I’ll leave you with, which I ask all my guests, is—and for you, this will be interesting because you’re not that far away from your younger parent self. You’re still your younger parent self because your kids are little. But if you could go back in time to your parent self of four years ago, what advice would you give yourself?

Martina: I would probably say: learn more about nervous system regulation so you don’t feel like it’s your job to always manage the mood, but instead be present with your kids.

That was a big part of it for me. I always felt like I had to manage everybody to be okay, but it’s okay if we’re not okay and become more comfortable with that.

Sarah: Nice. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Martina: Thank you, Sarah. I appreciate it.

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, Corey and I explore the pressure of intensive parenting and the idea that “just because you can doesn’t mean you should.” We discuss burnout, productivity culture, and how letting go of unrealistic or unnecessary expectations can help us be the parents we truly want to be.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out:1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app 2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️ 3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

* 00:00 — Intensive parenting and unrealistic expectations: “Just because you can doesn’t mean you should”

* 03:00 — Cultural expectations and productivity mindset and the “perfect parent” standard

* 06:00 — How parents get overwhelmed: Sports, activities, food, and overscheduling

* 09:00 — Choosing what actually matters- “Does this spark joy?” and letting go of unnecessary tasks

* 13:00 — Doing less to feel better

* 15:00 — Productivity, burnout, and rest

* 17:00 — Letting go of control and accepting help and why independence isn’t everything

* 21:00 — Questioning parenting norms

* 25:00 — Why care and interdependence matter

* 30:00 — Corey’s injury story + the cost of overdoing it

* 34:00 — The importance of receiving care

* 36:00 — Rethinking what it means to be a “good parent”

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Rejecting Impossible Parenting Standards: What Disability Teaches Us About Care and Community with Jessica Slice: Episode 220

* Ditch Special Time? Connecting with complex kids when connecting is hard: Episode 212

* Episode 60: Hunt, Gather, Parent with Michaeleen Doucleff

* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Evelyn & Bobbie bras

* Strong-Willed Kids Workshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

* Instagram

* Facebook Group

* YouTube

* Website

* Join us on Substack

* Newsletter

* Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

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Sarah: Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today, Corey and I discuss an idea we’ve been thinking about a lot lately and talking to each other about: intensive parenting, the choices we make, and the impossibly high standards we’re up against, and how these things affect our mental and physical health as parents and as humans.

After I interviewed Jessica Slice, disability activist and author of the book Unfit Parent, who talks about these things and what she’s learned from disability culture and being disabled herself, Corey captured all of these complicated ideas about productivity, care, and how we can sometimes drive ourselves too hard as: just because you can.

I’m going to say that again: just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Listen in to our conversation about how this idea can inform the choices we make as parents and how we can make changes to make life feel easier and more connected and fun.

If you find this episode useful, please share it with a friend. That’s actually only one of the no-cost ways you can support the podcast. You can also take a minute to rate and review the Peaceful Parenting Podcast on your favorite podcast player app. Sharing with friends and rating and reviewing us helps us reach more parents, and we all know that parents need all the love and support they can get these days.

You can also support us by becoming a supporter on Substack. For the cost of a latte a month, you not only help us offset some of the costs of making this podcast, you can also get the podcast ad-free. Just search my name on Substack and you’ll find us.

As we near our five-year podcast anniversary, we really appreciate the support and the love of our listeners.

Here’s our conversation.

Sarah: Hey Corey, welcome back to the podcast.

Corey: Thanks for having me again.

Sarah: Do you remember last year when that report came out from the U.S. Surgeon General that said that parents are suffering from intensive parenting?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: Yeah, and I think people consider peaceful parenting intensive parenting, right? And we do often say this kind of parenting is a lot of work. It requires a lot of us. But I wouldn’t say that it necessarily has to be intensive parenting in all aspects.

Corey: I agree so much. I had a lot of mixed feelings when that report came out.

Sarah: Yeah, me too. I felt like writing some sort of a defense of peaceful parenting after I heard that.

So let’s tease this apart a bit. We started talking about this after I interviewed Jessica Slice. If you all didn’t catch that, she is a disability activist, and she talked about disability culture and what it tells us about the impossible standards of parenting, and I guess the impossible standards of parenting in general, not just intensive parenting.

And you said it reminded you of one of your favorite quotes. So tell us your favorite quote, and that’s the anchor of our episode today.

Corey: One of my favorite quotes, though I’m not even sure if it’s technically a quote, is from one of my favorite movies, Jurassic Park. I recently actually read the book because I was talking so much about how I love the movie. The big theme is: just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Now, when you and I were talking about this, honestly, we could have a really long conversation about the way they were talking about it in the book, which was maybe questioning science and where we want to take that, but it actually applies really well to parenting.

Sarah: Yeah. And the idea that Jessica Slice brought in, and we’re going to play a quote about this, is that there were things that she couldn’t do as a disabled parent, and she felt a lot of guilt about that.

So let’s just take a second and listen to that quote.

Jessica: Yeah. I do sometimes feel self-conscious when I see the way my peers parent, when I see them making these perfect little lunches and these divided-up lunch boxes or doing Elf on the Shelf, these kinds of versions of parenting that I just don’t have the energy or capacity to have as part of our lives.

And I can feel like, are my kids missing out from this type of parenting? And maybe in some ways they are. Nothing is simple. But I know I would have done those things. The version of me in my twenties would have done those things, but she would’ve also been a lot less patient. She would’ve had a lot less time for just sort of wasting hours and being together.

I have an ability to be present with my kids that I wouldn’t have had before.

Sarah: Okay, so one thing that’s interesting to me in that quote is that she talks about how she probably would have done all the things if she could have, like herself when she was in her twenties. She didn’t become disabled until she was in her late twenties, and she said the person she was in her twenties probably would’ve turned into the mom that was trying to be the perfect mom.

The example she used was the little bento box lunchboxes. And just to be fair, if that brings you joy, then that brings you joy, right? The bento box lunches. But if you’re doing it because you feel like you should do it, and you can do it, that doesn’t mean you should do it.

So what are your thoughts on what she was saying?

Corey: This really struck me because I think, gosh, I have made lunches that she would consider the little bento box ones, and not because it made me happy. I did feel like this is what I was supposed to be doing in order to be sending an appropriate lunch for my children because of that pressure.

That really, really stood out to me, and I couldn’t help but just feel the weight of all those pressures we are handed as parents. And because, for most of my parenting journey, I have been able-bodied and can do endless amounts, I often find myself doing way more than I should because I feel like that’s what I’m supposed to be doing.

And then when you take a step back and you try to question it, you just get crushed by the weight of those expectations of, well, what are the reasonable ones? What should I be doing? What is intensive parenting, and what is taking a step back?

Sarah: I think also there’s so much value in our culture, and this is one thing that Jessica talks about in her book and in the podcast, is how much of what we do is informed by the values of capitalism. If we don’t feel that we’re being productive, and what’s one more thing? When is it enough? When can you just sit down and rest? Or when do you think, I’ve got to make those bento box lunches?

Now I am done for the day, and I could go to sleep and get some rest, or I could read or watch a show with my partner or whatever, but I really should. So that’s a perfect example of I can, but should I? Where do you draw that line? How do you question yourself about what you should do, what you can do, and what you shouldn’t do, even if you could?

Corey: Yeah, it’s true. And I think every stage that I’ve been through in parenting, and honestly any stage of life, whether you’re a parent or not, you’re going to be hit by this list of conflicting advice that’s coming at you for what you should be doing.

I typed out a list of what I’m experiencing right now. I have a 7-year-old and a 10-year-old, and right now I’m getting this conflicting stuff coming at me, telling me what I should be doing. And it sounds something to the extent of: you should have your kids in sports because kids are on too many screens and not getting enough exercise, but don’t push them too hard because then they won’t love movement. Register them in music lessons or get them extra tutoring. They must have a second language, but not too much because after-school activities can drain your children and then they’re not getting enough free, unsupervised time. And don’t even get me started on food.

With the whole bento box thing, I ended up there because of all the conflicting advice about not letting them have too much of this, but needing to have that, and you don’t want to give them an eating disorder. It’s just all of this. How do we find that line of what we should be doing and what is too much?

Sarah: I think some of it is asking what actually brings joy. Sometimes it brings joy to you, and sometimes you’re willing to do it because it sparks joy in your child. So just looking at the sports thing: does it spark joy in your child to play hockey? Does it spark joy in you to be involved in that? Maybe this is one of those things you do for your kids because it sparks joy in them.

But the whole idea of “you should do it because it’s good for kids to be in sports,” yes, that’s true. It is good for kids to be in sports. But that’s a perfect thing of just because you can doesn’t mean you should. You’ve got to look at your own life and how it fits into your life and what your kids want to do and what their interests are.

Corey: That’s so true. And when you think about what we do when we’re coaching, almost always we have this discussion with our clients of, okay, what does your daily schedule look like? What does your week look like? And then we’re like, okay, now what can you take out?

We’re almost always telling them this message of: just because you can manage all this doesn’t mean you should. What of this can you take out so that your life does feel less intense? I think this is something naturally that we do end up spending a lot of time coaching, because everyone does end up finding that they can’t find that line for themselves.

Sarah: For sure. And there’s also the things that people think they need to do. One thing I hear parents talking about is arguments with their kids about putting their laundry away. You know, “I folded all their laundry and put it in their room, and all they have to do is put it in their drawer.” And my first thought is always, oh my gosh, why are you folding their laundry?

And I don’t mean that in the sense that they should be folding their own laundry. I mean, who cares if the laundry’s folded? Maybe that’s your own personal thing, that you love a neat drawer, and okay, do that for yourself. But is it worth the battle to get into that with your kid? Plus, when they go and look for things to wear, they’re just going to be rooting through the clothes anyway and throwing them on the floor and unfolding them.

Sometimes there are just these shortcuts that people feel really guilty about taking, and they think they’re not living up to the North American perfect family standard. Another good example of that is baths every night.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: In the summer, maybe your kid needs a bath every day because they’ve got sunscreen and sand and they’re sweaty. But in the winter, at least where we live, it’s cold and kids don’t get that dirty. A bath a couple of nights a week is totally fine. But parents have this idea, well, shouldn’t I do the same thing every night because that’s part of the routine? Well, maybe that’s good. Maybe that works for you, or maybe you can let it go.

Corey: Yes. And I’ve heard you say this so often too about food. Just because you can make these amazing, crazy meals doesn’t mean you should be. It’s totally acceptable to be eating scrambled eggs and baby carrots every night.

Sarah: Yes, unless it sparks joy for you. And then you might want to do it. And even if it sparks joy sometimes, and you can do it, it doesn’t mean you should do it because it might make you too stressed.

There were things that I had to give up when my kids were small that I really liked doing, that did spark joy, and that I could have done, but the tradeoff was too great because it would’ve made me too tired. So that’s another thing. Sometimes there is something that sparks joy that you could do, but then you think about the tradeoff: how is this going to make me show up as a parent? Can I be the parent that I want to be?

An example I’m just thinking of now is I really wanted to homeschool my kids. Philosophically, that was super aligned for me, and I loved the idea of it in theory, of all of us learning together and doing all the things. But when it came down to it, I could have done it, but I decided not to do it because it wasn’t letting me show up as the kind of parent that I wanted to be. Being with my kids 24/7 was not good for me. I just thought, I shouldn’t do this because it is not making me show up as the kind of parent that I want to be.

Corey: Yeah, exactly. I felt the exact same way about homeschooling. Hats off to people who find ways to make it work for themselves. It truly does work for some families. We just have to look at our individual resources, literally and figuratively, and what that is going to look like in practice for our family. And just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

Sarah: Yes, and please check out our podcast that we did about how I decided to ditch special time.

Corey: Yeah.

Sarah: Because that’s also a really good example of this.

Corey: I agree.

Sarah: Of course I could do it. I just realized it wasn’t working for us, and instead I chose following what made my family feel joyful. We’ll put a link to all the episodes we mention in the show notes. So that’s a really good one if you want to hear practically how I followed what made my family feel joyful.

Corey: Yeah, I love that.

Sarah: So we talked about that sort of drive for productivity. The drive for productivity tries to convince us that if we can do something, we should do it—that more and more and more, like we’re always striving to get all the things done and check all the things off the to-do list.

One thing that Amanda Diekman talks about—and she’s also been on the podcast; she talks about low-demand parenting, and she had a podcast where she talked about something she learned from what she called her superwoman self. And I think that’s what we’re talking about, like the push, push, go, go, go. “I can do it, I can do it, I can do it.” But can you? And should you?

I’m going to read a quote from her. She says, “I’m newly trying to actively love on my amazing superwoman.” This is us appreciating, not beating ourselves up for that go-go-go part, but appreciating, you know, this has probably gotten me to where I am, and there’s a lot of life squeezed out of having those sorts of impulses to do more. But also it causes what she calls extreme exhaustion.

So she says: “Because it turns out that superwoman holds both my vast trying and my extreme exhaustion. She’s trying to protect me from how very tired I am by hyping me up. But when I make her feel safe and tell her that she can let go, she can slow down, I can see how very tired she is and how long she’s been hustling to keep me safe. She melts into my arms. She’s my most hardworking part, and it turns out she needs a rest too.”

Corey: While you were reading that, I got full-body goosebumps.

Sarah: Yeah, I love that. So really appreciating that part of us that wants to do more and get stuff done, not villainizing it, but recognizing the good in it and also holding that part of us and recognizing how exhausted it makes us too.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: I think there are some things that do exhaust us that we don’t feel we can let go of. I remember I was talking to a client, and she was saying how she was feeling so exhausted and sort of resentful by her 4-year-old’s bedtime routine. She said, “First I help him get his pajamas on and I brush his teeth, and then I read him stories, and then I lie with him, and it’s just so exhausting.”

And I said, “Totally. That does sound exhausting. And you don’t have to do any of it.”

She was like, “What? What do you mean?” I said, “You don’t have to do any of that stuff. You could just let him fall asleep on the couch whenever he falls asleep, without his pajamas on and without brushing his teeth. And you don’t have to lie with him, and you don’t have to read him stories.”

And she was kind of like, “What are you saying?” And I said, “You don’t have to do any of it, but you’re choosing to do it because it’s important to you to do that nurturing in that bedtime routine.”

So I think that’s another thing to think about too, is that when there are things that we’re doing, there’s this sorting mechanism: what am I doing because I feel like I have to do it, when I really could let go of it? What am I doing because the superwoman is driving me to do it because I’m trying to attain this impossible standard of parenting? And what am I doing that might still be hard, but it’s just really important to me?

Maybe it doesn’t spark joy. Probably no one’s bedtime routine sparks joy, but maybe it’s just too important to let go of.

An example of that for me, and I was just reminded of it this morning, is with my daughter. As you know, Maxine is now in college and she doesn’t have to be at school every morning at nine the way she used to. But when she was still in school, she had to get up at seven and get out the door by 7:45 to get to school on time.

And I am not a morning person. I may have mentioned that before, but I really hate getting up early. Like, 7:00 a.m. is just way too early for me. But I got up every day of her high school years at 7:00 a.m., and I did with my sons as well.

And all of them were like, “Mom, you don’t need to get up. We can get out the door on our own.” But I felt like it was supportive to get up, and it was important to me to be supportive of them. If they had to get up early, I wanted to be supportive and get up early with them.

I make Maxine a cup of tea in the morning, and she pretty much gets her own lunch now, but I used to make lunch for them when they were in high school. I was doing it even though it felt intensive to get up early when I didn’t have to. But it felt important to me to show up and nurture like that.

Corey: Yeah, that makes so much sense. It’s interesting—as you were saying that too, I was thinking about how every day when all the kids are getting off the bus, my son used to throw his backpack on the ground. Then instead I started just asking him, “I’ll take it.”

And now, to this day, he would never throw it now because he’s not this tiny little kindergartner who can barely get himself back home again. But I still naturally love that moment of being able to be like, “Hand me your backpack.” I don’t know, something about it. I take it and I put it on my back, and I feel like I’m letting him know, you can let those weights go for the day.

There are these moments where I’m choosing to do that, and I can, and I’m happy to do it. It’s very different than that feeling of resentment as I’m trudging along.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s something you’re choosing to do because that nurturing of taking the load off of him, literally and figuratively, is important to you.

I think the theme we’re coming to with “just because you can doesn’t mean you should” is looking at what are the outside forces that are making me think that I should do something—cultural forces or capitalist forces or the parents-next-door forces—that are making you feel like you should do something, and really questioning, what is the reason? What’s the drive underneath this thing? Is this something that I believe in and something that I can get behind?

And sometimes there may be things that you look at and say, well, maybe I would drop this if it was just up to me, but it sparks joy in my child, or it’s a nurturing that I’m choosing to do, or it’s a way that I’m choosing to show up. Sometimes you might choose to do something because it does spark joy in your child, even if it doesn’t in you. That’s something where you have the resources to give them.

So just not taking everything at face value of what a good North American bedtime routine looks like or what the other people are doing. I remember when my kids were little and there was always, are you putting them in soccer? Are you putting them in tennis? And I was like, I’m not putting anyone in anything. Partly because they didn’t want to, but partly because I didn’t want to. I didn’t feel like going to all those practices when people weren’t begging me, “Please, please, please, can I join a soccer team?” I’m fine with not doing that stuff.

Corey: Yeah, that’s so true. This is all reminding me of—please go back and listen to one of my favorite podcast episodes you’ve ever done—with Michaeleen.

Sarah: Oh yeah, yeah.

Corey: Did I say her name properly? The Hunt, Gather, Parent one.

Sarah: Doucleff.

Corey: She’s the one I first learned about the idea of North American parents being weird.

Sarah: Right.

Corey: I can’t remember—do you remember what she meant by that?

Sarah: That weird is Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic. It’s sort of like we have all these ways of parenting that are very much the intensive parenting thing again.

One thing she talks about is having your weekend organized around kid activities, going to the special science center and birthday parties and all that. She really encourages parents to live their lives and involve their kids in their lives. So instead of going to the science center, you might go to Home Depot and your kid helps you get the things you need for the little mini bathroom renovation you’re doing, and then they work with you.

Which of course, in itself, is another way things can feel intensive, having a child helper. But she really talks a lot about the benefits of involving your child in your life. One benefit is that they turn out to be good helpers because you’ve let them help when they want to. But really, it’s about living your life as opposed to trying to arrange your life for your child.

Corey: Yes. And if I’m honest, I didn’t necessarily agree with everything I read in that book, but I think it might be one of the most influential parenting books I’ve ever read in that it really fundamentally informed how I show up. I just decided that I don’t have to do what everyone else is doing.

And I think that’s a big theme we’re saying here too. Look, if we’re peaceful parents, if we’re being honest, our listeners are already choosing to parent in a way that’s different than a lot of their society around them.

Sarah: That’s true.

Corey: So we’re basically saying, now take it a step further. Just keep questioning everything. You don’t have to do anything you don’t want to.

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. Question everything. Is that like a sixties slogan?

Corey: I don’t know, but I feel like I would’ve done really well living in the sixties.

Sarah: “Question everything.” Okay, so another thing that came up from reading Jessica’s book and the interview with her was how, if someone is disabled, they often automatically need a level of care that a non-disabled person—and I was going to say doesn’t need, but I’m going to change that to doesn’t think they need.

Yes, there is often physical care that a disabled person needs that a non-disabled person doesn’t need, if they have legs that can walk and so on. But the care part of caring for each other in community is something that Jessica talks about disability culture as being really good at, and that community care that we need to choose is in itself going against the sort of rabid individualism of capitalism that is encouraged around us.

I think that’s why so many parents are so uncomfortable with doing things for their kids, because our culture is so hyper-focused on individualism and independence. Like, why should you carry Big C’s backpack if he can carry it for himself? Aren’t you just coddling him, and he’ll never learn to be independent if you carry his backpack for him?

People have probably heard me tell this story before, but I had the same thing with Maxine when she was little, carrying her backpack. And now, when she’s 18, she won’t let me carry anything. We’ll be coming from getting groceries and coming from the car, and she’s carrying like five bags of groceries and I’m carrying nothing. I’m like, really? I can carry that. And she’s like, “No, Mom, I’ve got it. Let me carry that for you.”

My middle son, the other day, offered to carry my purse for me. I was like, “It’s okay. I can carry my purse.” He was like, “Mom, do you want me to carry that?” I’m like, “No, it’s okay. I can carry it.”

I got a little off the tangent there of care and hyper-individualism, but that’s one thing that Jessica said non-disabled parents can learn from disability community: that we all actually need care, no matter how much we try to convince ourselves that we don’t.

Corey: Yes. And okay, I have a story I really want to tell about this. It just happened recently. Keep in mind, I had been planning this podcast with you. I had listened to this. I knew all of this academically.

Last week—once again, we chose something that we really love. My son entered ski racing this year, and it has been the most joyful thing for everyone in our family. We’re like, wow, look at us in a big organized sport and loving it.

So it’s been wonderful. And last Sunday was the last one of the season. My son had been off the entire week with the flu. I hadn’t slept properly in about seven days. And he still was sick on Saturday, but by Sunday morning was full of beans and like, “I can go do my last race.”

This is the definition of just because you can doesn’t mean you should. It was also daylight savings time.

Sarah: Oh goodness.

Corey: So we lost an hour, or however it works. Daylight savings time should be banned as far as I’m concerned.

That morning, as we’re all so exhausted and struggling, my husband goes, “Did you know more accidents happen on this day than any other day in the year?”

Anyway, race days are chaotic. I had all these 7-year-olds all over the place. They were running out to go do their last run, and I realized in the chalet they’d left some garbage. I was like, I’m just going to clean up after them. I don’t want to leave this mess.

I pick it all up, walk over to the garbage can, and suddenly I’m on the ground. It was a huge scene. Everyone stood up. People gasped. People ran over to me. I threw garbage in the air, almost had it land in the garbage can, which would’ve been amazing.

It was just a total scene. I’m actually laughing because I didn’t realize anything serious had happened, but within a couple of minutes I realized that I was actually hurt.

So after my son’s next—I still waited for him to finish his race—we went home, and I realized by that evening I had to be taken to the emergency department because I could not walk.

Sarah: Oh my goodness. Before you get to the part you want to get to, do you think this all happened because you probably shouldn’t have gone to ski racing that morning?

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: Okay. So this is like a two-moral story. There are two morals to this story. The first moral is: just because you could go to ski racing with all those things that were happening doesn’t mean you should have gone, and maybe you wouldn’t have gotten hurt.

Corey: Yes. And then part two. I could have not gone because we have a wonderful community there, and they all would’ve helped all those little 7-year-olds if I hadn’t been there. So I should have also just let people help me.

After not sleeping for a week, and then at the emergency department, I could barely walk. I was limping everywhere, and every turn, someone was offering me a wheelchair, and I kept saying, “No. I’m fine. I’ve got this.”

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Corey: By the time I had just been limping all over the place, a mom there with a teenager literally forced me into a wheelchair.

Sarah: Mm.

Corey: She was there with her sick child, and she was like, “You know what? You need this.” She got me in the chair and started pushing me around until a nurse noticed and was like, “Oh, I can do this.” The nurse had been offering all along. It wasn’t their fault, it was me. I would not accept help.

And then while I was there, I was texting with a friend, being like, “I’m just sitting here bawling by myself in the emergency room because I’m really hurt. I’m supposed to be going on a ski trip next week.” Spoiler alert: it’s next week. I’m not on a ski trip.

And she offered to come and be with me, and I told her, “No, I’m fine.” She offered to come pick me up at the end of the day. I told her, “No, I’m fine.” I just kept telling everyone I was fine, and I wasn’t. I could not accept anyone helping me.

Sarah: So you didn’t end up letting her come or letting her pick you up or anything?

Corey: No, nothing.

Sarah: Aw. And she told me afterwards that she was like, “Corey, this is a sign that you need to slow down and accept more help in your life.”

Well, and also ask for help. It’s really hard for a lot of us to ask for help. People listening have probably heard it said, we weren’t raised—people listening have probably heard it said that we didn’t evolve to raise children in the nuclear family. We evolved to raise children in a village, or at least in a small community of people—grandparents who could help, cousins, younger and older siblings helping with younger siblings.

This hyper-independence, small family, nobody else helping, is such a recipe for burnout and exhaustion and all of the physical and mental health problems that people have. I think those things really could be healed if we did what we’re talking about in this episode: asking for help, accepting help, and not doing everything just because you can.

Corey: Yes, and it’s interesting because we talk to people about self-care. Self-care is a big buzzword now, but I often think it gets turned into just another thing that we’re expected to do. Instead of what I think is at the heart of self-care, which means just being honest with yourself about capacity.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

There was some research done about problem-solving, and I forget what book I read this in, but when there’s a problem, people often want to add things on—do this, add this, add that. There actually was research done about this, about what people tend to do when there’s a problem.

What the research showed is that often the answer to a problem is to take something away or stop doing something. If anyone knows what that study is, shoot me an email, because I don’t know where I heard that. But actually, taking something away is often much more effective than adding something in.

Corey: Yes, that makes so much sense. Honestly, until I sat down this morning to write some notes for this podcast, I didn’t even realize what I was doing.

I couldn’t get over it. I’ve been going to physio now for a week, and I can walk right now, which is nice. But literally, she gave me a giant list of stuff, and I’m like, I will do all of this. I’m going to add all this in. I am going to be the best rehabbed-knee person that ever existed.

Then I realized that’s actually probably what got me into this jam.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think sometimes we like to be in control too, right? It makes us feel safe. It makes us feel it’s familiar. Especially if we grew up with that sort of push to be independent, not needing people is the safe alternative, or not letting people help.

Just on Sunday, two days ago, my middle son and his girlfriend were over for dinner, and I had made this fancy dinner because it was her birthday, and I really had been cooking for the whole day. At the end of the dinner, I had piled all the dishes in the sink, and my son was like, “Let me do the dishes.”

And I was like, “No, that’s okay. I’ll do them tomorrow.”

And he was like, “Mom, I’ll do the dishes before I go. You’ve been cooking all day.”

And I had to force myself to let him do the dishes, because I’m so used to “I’ve got it, I’ll do it, I can do everything.” And not necessarily in this case, because my kids are grown up and I could have done the dishes tomorrow or whatever, but I just noticed how uncomfortable it was in my body to let him do the dishes.

And also I was really proud of him for insisting. I was like, oh, he’s such a nice boy. He’s such a sweetheart. And he did the dishes, and he did a good job, and I was grateful.

Corey: Yeah.

Sarah: Well, any last thoughts about this “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”?

Corey: Go read Jurassic Park. It’s fascinating. It was a fascinating book. It made me think a lot about AI.

But no, when it comes to this, definitely check out the podcast we did with Jessica. This would be another one of the landmark podcasts that I think you’ve done where I just can’t stop thinking about it. I really think what we need to start doing is realizing we just can’t do this all on our own.

Do you have any last thoughts, Sarah?

Sarah: Well, I was just thinking, I want to leave people with—maybe we’ll leave them with a quote from the Jessica Slice podcast.

Again, if you haven’t heard it, go back and listen to it. We’ll put a link in the show notes. But we’ll let her close out with some thoughts about care.

I think it’s just a really nice thing to think about, that aspect of care and what it means to be a good parent, and what it means to think about all of the things that we’ve just talked about.

Corey: Absolutely. I think she’s the way to end this.

And just in case anyone’s wondering, this week my children all cared for me without me ever asking them to. So many times when I got myself too low, they were coming over and helping get me back up again. They were running up and down everywhere in the house to get me everything.

So just remember that you are modeling beautiful caregiving, and they’re going to just give it back to you, and they’re happy to give it back to you.

Sarah: Yeah. And I just also want to say that I think this quote we’re going to end on from Jessica talks about how the care things that we’ve talked about don’t have to mean that we are living up to these impossible standards or doing the intensive parenting that leads to burnout.

I think everything we’ve talked about in this episode are the antidotes to that burnout and intensive parenting and impossible standards. And I think the last piece of it is just giving yourself compassion for when that’s hard because you feel like people are judging you, or that people aren’t going to think you’re a good parent. So just giving yourself compassion around that.

Thanks, Corey. We’ll let Jessica close it out.

Jessica: I think for all parents there’s this sense that you should be able to provide what your kids need without assistance, and that there is a distinction between people who give care and people who need care. And that a mom, in particular, is a person who gives care and doesn’t need it.

And I think what disability forces to the surface, particularly for those who have some care needs like me, is: I give care and I need care, and that is part of my daily life. Needing care does not hinder my ability to be a valuable member of my family or a good mom.

I think it dispels that myth that you have to be one or the other. But I think if all parents could reject that binary of caregivers or care receivers, then it would mean that parenting didn’t feel as impossible or didn’t have such an impossible standard—that weakness were allowed, or dependence weren’t allowed, or interdependence.

I think it would just change how we think about parenting in general, because there’s this feeling, I believe, that particularly moms have to be all-powerful and limitless and perfect, and that it is a failure in the very definition of what it is to be a parent to start to need support and care.

Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Kahlila Robinson and Sarah Gerstenzang about self-regulation, co-regulation, repair, and what realistic emotional expectations look like for children ages five to eight. We discuss why parent self-regulation matters so much, how to support kids through big feelings, and practical strategies families can use together.

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We talk about:

* 00:00 — Meet Kahlila Robinson and Sarah Gerstenzang

* 03:00 — The book and self-regulation. What self-regulation is and why it starts with parents

* 06:00 — What’s realistic for kids (ages 5–8) and why big emotions are normal at this age

* 11:00 — Co-regulation: What it is and how parents support it

* 15:00 — Supporting kids through big feelings: Why feelings shouldn’t be rushed or shut down

* 20:00 — Revisiting hard moments and why conversations after the fact matter

* 23:00 — Repair: How and why to repair after conflict

* 29:00 — Practical tools and simple regulation strategies

* 35:00 — When strategies don’t work: Why practice and flexibility matter

* 38:00 — Where to find the guests

* 39:00 — Final reflections: Advice to their younger parenting selves

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* The Self-Regulation Workbook for Ages 5-8

* Kahlila’s website and IG @kahlilarobinson

* Sarah G’s website

* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Evelyn & Bobbie bras

* Strong-Willed Kids Workshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

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xx Sarah and Corey

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Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guests are Kahlila Robinson and Sarah Gerstenzang, who wrote The Self-Regulation Handbook for Kids ages five through eight. Although their book is aimed at parents of kids these ages, the truth is that so much of what we discussed applies to parents of kids of all ages, toddlers to teens.

A lot of the themes we discuss today will be familiar to you as listeners because you’ve heard me talk a lot about self-regulation, co-regulation, and repair. Listen into our conversation to learn why these are important for us as parents and why they are so crucial for teaching kids self-regulation no matter what age they are.

Let’s meet Kahlila and Sarah.

Sarah R: Hi, Kahlila. Hi, Sarah. Welcome to the podcast.

Kahlila: Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you for having us.

Sarah R: Yeah. We’re going to be talking about your book, The Self-Regulation Workbook for Children Ages Five to Eight. But before we dive in, maybe if you could each introduce yourselves and tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do.

Kahlila: Sure. I’m Kahlila Robinson. I’m a licensed clinical psychologist based in New York City. I have a private practice where I see kids, families, and adults. I’m also a mom myself of two kids, and I’m very happy to be here talking about the book and sharing more about our process and some of the highlights from the book.

Sarah G.: Yeah. Thank you. So I’m Sarah Gerstenzang. I’m a licensed clinical social worker here in Brooklyn, New York. I also have a private practice, which focuses on adoptive families and complex developmental trauma. I’m also the board chair of the Adoptive and Foster Family Coalition of New York, and the parent of three children, two by birth and one who we adopted through foster care.

Sarah R: Welcome. Yesterday, when I was doing my preparation for this podcast, I came across an online copy of your book, Another Mother: Co-Parenting with the Foster Care System, and I started reading it, and I kept having to go, stop, stop, go back to the—it seems to—I kept it open on my laptop. I’m really looking forward to getting back to it. It seems really interesting. I grew up with some foster kids in my house when I was really young.

Okay, so back to the book that we are here to talk about. Maybe just tell us a little bit about your book and, just while we’re all on the same page, what’s your definition of self-regulation?

Kahlila: Our book is written for parents of kids age five through eight. So it’s called The Self-Regulation Workbook for Children, but it’s a slight misnomer. It’s more directly written for parents and focuses on the importance of parents being able to self-regulate so that they can be calm on behalf of their kids, and really teaching parents strategies for how to do that through really stormy times with their kids.

Because what we’ve seen, time and time again, is when parents are able to remain calm, for the most part, it benefits the child. It provides a model for the child. It supports a child’s own self-regulation. So there’s a lot in there in terms of parent guidance on how to support themselves when their child is having a hard time or when they’re having a hard time. And then there’s also a lot of strategies in the book for kids and parents to use together to support self-regulation in both of them.

So that’s the overview of the book.

Sarah R: Yeah, it’s a really helpful book. I notice that just in my practice of coaching parents, parents always come with this idea of, in short, “fix my kid,” right? So we kind of talk about that as the inroad, but then after a session or two, parents always say to me, “This isn’t even about my kid. This is about me.” And I think that’s—yeah. Nobody, though, wants to come into it thinking that. They always want to come into it thinking, “Fix my kid.”

Kahlila: Yeah.

Sarah G.: It’s kind of confusing for them also, because most parents parent the way that they’ve been parented, and they can’t really take that bird’s-eye view and see, often, how they are impacting their own child’s sense of safety and calm and capacity to be in charge of their own emotions. So yeah, it’s confusing.

Sarah R: So self-regulation—just give us a definition, what you think of as self-regulation, so we’re all on the same page.

Kahlila: Yeah.

Sarah G.: Throwing yourself.

Kahlila: Yes. In short, yeah. It’s the ability to identify feelings that you have within yourself in terms of how they come through. They could come through physically, they can come through as thoughts and as emotions. So, being able to identify those feelings and then find ways to contain them within yourself so that they don’t end up spilling out and creating more disruptive experiences for yourself or others. So: identifying, managing, and containing your own emotions.

Sarah R: Yeah. And that’s hard for kids, though. I guess that’s, you know—hence the book, right? It’s hard for kids, and it’s hard for adults too sometimes. I think that’s why you spent so much time on different—we’re going to get to that—but strategies for parents to use themselves for their own emotional self-regulation.

Before we talk about sort of what we’re working toward, what do you think typical self-regulation in kids looks like? Because what I find is that the parents I work with have higher expectations than kids are capable of, you know, sort of—we’ll talk about the under-eight set—in terms of what is a realistic expectation for how kids can manage their feelings?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think there can be a slight range, right, in terms of variability, as human beings. Five- through eight-year-olds are going to be expressing emotion. A lot of times it’s a full-body experience for them, right? So they’re sad, they’re mad—they’re going to feel the charge in their system, in their full physical system. It could come out in ways that are more physical than it would be for an adult. They actually feel the emotion physically in a way that I think is more powerful than adults.

They also, like we were saying earlier, don’t necessarily have that perspective on what’s a big deal, what’s not a big deal, what can be fixed, what can’t be fixed, how to solve certain problems. Things can feel much more overwhelming to kids because they don’t have that experience and perspective on how to solve problems, why certain things are certain ways, much less of an understanding around things like time and how things function and all of that. So a lot less information on how things run. And because of that, they can have bigger, stronger reactions to things than adults.

Sarah G.: And I would add to that, actually, that most children live in environments that are not very natural anymore. Kids five to eight—humans were meant to spend many, many hours, most of the day, outside in a natural environment, which is calming: walking, exercising, playing, learning from adults just by watching. So, number one, that would help their regulation. And if they did become dysregulated, I don’t know if you’ve ever been outside with a 6-year-old screaming, but it’s not nearly so terrible as it is with one in the grocery store.

So, yeah, I think that also contributes to the misalignment of expectations and capacity.

Sarah R: That makes sense. And I think it’s a tricky age too because, in my experience, both as a parent and a coach, I remember with all three of my kids, I think the hardest time for my husband with them was when they were around six. It was because they were so capable in so many other ways. They could learn how to play chess, they could talk to you about the stars, they could—you know, in some ways, intellectually, they’ve made a big leap and they seem so mature in some ways, but they also could have a meltdown where they’re a crying mess on the floor because they wanted to press the elevator button and you pressed it instead, right?

So there’s, I find, especially in this five- to eight-year-old set, a real asynchronicity between how developed they are in some areas and how emotional regulation is still super tricky for them in other areas. And I find that hard for parents. It does raise their expectations for how regulated it’s possible for their child to be in those difficult moments.

Sarah G.: Especially when HALT—hungry, angry, lonely, and tired—comes into play. I remember getting so annoyed at my husband. I had one child who’s super vulnerable to being hungry, and I’d be like, “What? You forgot the snack?” So they don’t have the capacity to overcome those things yet.

Sarah R: Yeah, and I love how you brought that acronym in, and you talked about the “L” as being—the “L” for an adult might be lonely, but for kids as seeking connection or feeling a lack of connection. I think that is really important to think about.

We’ve already talked a little bit about parental self-regulation. I want to just touch on that again, and also co-regulation. So self-regulation—when we can manage our own big feelings—can you talk about what co-regulation is? Listeners to this podcast hear me talk about it all the time, but because you do talk about that a lot in your book, if you could just talk about what co-regulation is, and also why parental self-regulation and co-regulation are so important in the context of kids’ self-regulation.

Kahlila: Yeah. So co-regulation happens in infancy, right? When we are an infant and we are hungry or sleepy or need soothing of some kind, ideally a calm, available, consistent parent will meet that need for us, and we have a way of calming our body down. So that’s when we first learn that a high-arousal, really active, really uncomfortable bodily state can actually shift. It can actually shift to something calmer. We figure that out. We learn that over time as infants, and that’s our first experience of co-regulation. It comes from outside of us, and then we learn that’s something that our bodies and minds can actually do.

Sarah R: So that’s like soothing a baby. That movement, holding them, making those calming noises. That’s something we do, I mean, a lot of us do that intuitively with babies. Maybe that’s not fair to say, but we’re—it’s easier for us, I think, to do it with an upset baby, a lot of the time, than it is with an upset five- to eight-year-old. Why do you think that is?

Kahlila: I think it has a lot to do with what you just said, Sarah, about the asynchronous development, which is typical, right? We’re supposed to be asynchronous at five through eight, but I think it’s that false sense of, like, “They’ve got it.” They have these capacities. They are in school. They’re on a sports team. They’re learning how to read. They’re making friends. They’re doing all these things that you’re amazed by and that show this type of emotional maturity and growth and development. So maybe there’s a false security there around, “Well, they can do it themselves.” And so it can be frustrating, right?

Sarah G.: Also, they can talk and babies can’t talk. There’s a great documentary called The Dark Matter of Love about some kids who are coming in from an orphanage into a family. Early in the film, there’s a lot of chaos, the kids acting out, but the dad can’t understand because they’re speaking in Russian. And you stay so calm—these kids are shouting—and they have the translation at the bottom of the film.

And I think when you have a five- to eight-year-old, they seem bratty sometimes because of what they’re saying and the way they’re saying it.

Sarah R: Mm-hmm.

Sarah G.: Whereas a baby—we’re biologically programmed, I think, to have that—it makes the back of your neck feel uncomfortable when you hear a shrieking infant, right? “Somebody pick that baby up.” But with a five-, six-, seven-, or eight-year-old, it’s more like, “What’s that kid sounding so bratty?” Obviously they need stuff too. They need to be co-regulated, but—

Sarah R: Yeah.

Sarah G.: That’s part of our natural need to, as Kahlila was saying—it’s totally natural—our need to get these kids in order so they can be functional adults someday. But they also need to learn.

Sarah R: I think that’s one of the reasons why every day I teach, “Kids are doing the best they can.” And I think it’s hard—it’s easy to remember that with a baby, but it’s harder to remember that with a five- to eight-year-old.

So what does co-regulation look like for a five- to eight-year-old with a parent? What would you do to co-regulate with a kiddo? Because that’s how they also learn self-regulation, right? Through co-regulating with us.

Kahlila: Yeah. So in our book, we talk about co-regulation starting with the ability to self-regulate as a parent. So if you notice yourself getting activated in relation to your kid, that’s fine. That happens. An awareness of that is really helpful—like, “I notice myself getting kind of frustrated right now,” or just a tightening of my chest right now, or a furrowed brow. Just being able to have some awareness of where you’re at, what your baseline is, is a good place to start so that then you can take care of yourself a little bit and keep yourself contained.

That can be saying something to yourself like, “Okay, here we go. This is not a big deal. This is something we can do.” Or, “My only goal right now is to keep calm myself. Let me see if I can do that.” Or, “This is temporary. We’ll get through this.” So a little bit of self-talk you can do with yourself if you notice yourself getting a little bit heated and wanting to co-regulate.

If you need something a little more than that in terms of self-regulation as a parent, you could do a little bit of deep breathing. If you practice breathing when you’re not upset, when you’re calm, it can be really helpful in those moments that are more intense. It can be a strategy that’s actually really effective if you take a couple nice deep breaths in.

And if you have more time and you can do something else to calm yourself down in the moment, you can do many, many other things. Sarah talks a lot about strategies to use in the kitchen, right? Like washing dishes. If you have a window in your kitchen, or a window somewhere, staring outside—something sensory-based. Smelling something calm. We like to talk about sticking your head in the freezer, getting that blast of cool air, chewing on a piece of ice. Anything that you can do if you notice yourself getting a little too agitated to then engage with your child.

Because if you’re trying to calm your child—think of a conversation you have with an adult when you’re upset, right? If you’re upset and you’re talking to an adult that’s annoyed with you for being upset, or that is upset themselves, that doesn’t tend to help calm you down. So you want to use that same model and idea for yourself: see if you can calm yourself down, make yourself feel as present and emotionally contained as possible on behalf of your child. So that’s kind of step one.

After that—Sarah, do you want to add in anything about co-regulating?

Sarah G.: Yeah. So step two would be really a variation on what we do with infants. It could be patting on the back: “Hey, what’s going on?” Or, “You need a minute? Do you want to go get your stuffy? Do you want to…” Just kind of calm down—what’s going on? But using that same body, as Kahlila said. You need to be in a calm place. No child’s going to calm down with their parent very agitated.

Then I think just using your words. I make a lot of eye contact with my child who had the hardest time—I actually had two kids who had a very hard time regulating—so I’d say, “Look at me. Look at me.” And I’d start deep breathing and look in their eyes. I wasn’t angry, just like, “Let’s calm down together.” Around those ages, that was super effective for them.

Sarah R: I love that. “Look at me” as a grounding technique, not as a “pay attention to me while I’m talking to you” sort of “look at me.”

Sarah G.: Yeah, no. It was like, “Let’s get back together here.”

Sarah R: Yeah.

Kahlila: I think you also want to frame it a little bit—maybe we’ll talk more about this—the idea of co-regulation is to prevent as much as you can and contain a more disruptive, explosive thing. But it’s okay for the child to feel upset about something, right? It’s not like you want to say, “Stop, let me co-regulate this child so they can stop being upset because this is so annoying to me.” Maybe this is a very legitimate, healthy emotional expression that they’re having, and you’re just there to contain it and guide them and help them ride that wave of emotion.

So I think that’s the other thing that gets a little tricky sometimes for parents. Co-regulation is not necessarily about stopping the child from feeling what they’re feeling and stopping the emotional expression. It’s more about containing it and supporting it so that it can actually flow out of the child, right? If there’s a legitimate hurt or upset feeling that the child’s feeling, you don’t want to co-regulate so that it goes away. You want to co-regulate so the child can actually have their full wave of feeling without it being super disruptive or overwhelming.

Sarah R: Yeah, that’s a great point. Sorry, Sarah, did you want to say something?

Sarah G.: I was just going to say what our point is—what I remember saying to my kids many times—is, “I want to hear what you have to say, but I can’t do that right now because of this.” There’s too much emotion going on.

Exactly what Kahlila is saying. And I think we can use our words to co-regulate too. “Wow, you’re so angry right now, and I’m really sorry you’re so angry. I want to hear what you have to say. Let’s take a few minutes.” So acknowledging what they’re feeling—your words really do matter. “I want to hear what you have to say, but I can’t in this situation that we’re in.”

Sarah R: Yeah, in Peaceful Parenting we call it welcoming feelings. You talk in the book about how that’s a really important part of kids learning self-regulation. Maybe you just mentioned it, but can you expand on that a little bit?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think it’s very important to understand that in order for kids to learn self-regulation, they actually have to feel the full extent of their feelings. Kids age five through eight pretty much don’t have a chance—they don’t have a choice—but to feel their feelings fully, for the most part. And as parents, we can unintentionally sometimes cut them off from the full extent and breadth of their feeling because it’s annoying or disruptive or we don’t want to deal with it.

In that way, they don’t necessarily get to learn how to fully contain it and understand it themselves. If they’re getting prematurely kind of cut off by a parent saying, “Stop,” or even just a parent that’s trying to use distraction—sometimes distraction is effective, but sometimes a parent that’s just like, “Look over here. Stop feeling what you’re feeling”—then it cuts off a little bit of learning for the child to say, “Oh, this is how deep the feeling goes. This is how long it lasts. Okay, this is what it starts to feel like when it starts to go down.”

They get more of an internal knowing and understanding around what the intensity of the feeling feels like. So if you cut that off prematurely, then they don’t get the full extent of that kind of learning.

Sarah R: Yeah. I think sometimes we don’t have the bandwidth for it as parents necessarily every single time they’re upset, but I always talk about thinking of that as an intention. Your intention is to always welcome the feelings, but sometimes you do have to distract because you’ve got to get out the door for work and you don’t have 15 minutes—or 45, or whatever—to sit with them while they go through the feelings. So I think it’s just, over time, our intention is to welcome feelings whenever possible.

Sarah G.: And I think one thing we talk about in the book that I think is just crucial is revisiting. I always say to parents, Saturday morning’s a perfect time. You have pancake breakfast, whatever, if you can. Then you say, “Hey, on Wednesday, when you got so upset and we did get to school, but I was wondering—why were you so angry?” And just revisiting that time so you can understand what happened and then make different plans.

I think that matters. It’s great if you can do it in the moment. That’s often very challenging. I have the same thought as you, Sarah. Time these days for parents is really, really rough. The pressures on them. But to actually go back and touch on that moment, that really matters.

Sarah R: I love what you say about—you don’t have to address it in the moment. You can address it later. I often tell parents, you don’t have to address it in the moment, and often it’s not even as effective because kids are not in their learning brains or their thinking brains, and they can’t learn when you’re trying to address whatever the situation is.

Another thing you talk about is repair, and that goes on the heels of what we were saying—addressing something that’s happened that’s difficult for you or for them or for both of you. Can you just talk a little bit about repair? Whether you’ve kind of messed up or you’ve had some conflict with your kids, why is it important? And what are some best practices around repair?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think this is probably one of the most essential places to go as a parent. It’s such an important parenting tool, actually.

And I think it can be foreign to a lot of parents, the idea of repairing with your child, because that wasn’t how you were raised. You didn’t have a mom or dad come to you after yelling or losing their temper and say, “Hey, you know what? I think I lost my cool.” So it’s kind of like, how do I do this? This doesn’t seem right, to apologize to your kid. There’s all this discomfort that parents can have around it.

But I think it’s so powerful, and one of the reasons it’s so powerful is because we really have to acknowledge that our children are some of our most important attachment relationships, right? There’s a huge importance to how we are feeling about ourselves depending on how our relationship is going with our kids. So repairing is not only healthy and good for the relationship and for the child, but it’s also healthy and important and good for the parent to feel like, “I’ve done the best I could in repairing a situation with a child.”

So we’ve all been there. We’ve lost our cool, overreacted, done something that we regret with our kids. And so when we talk about repair, the first thing that we suggest is just taking some moments of reflection for yourself and repairing with yourself. So that means whatever the shame or the guilt or embarrassment or sadness that you have around what happened, be with that. Be gentle with yourself. See if you can self-soothe a little bit. Parenting is a really hard job. I do the best that I can. Even good parents make mistakes. So really, again, that self-regulation around calming yourself down, trying to contain your emotions before you engage with your child.

So the first repair is really with yourself.

Then you want to be the, in terms of secure attachment, bigger, wiser model of things emotionally for your child. So you go to your child and you talk about it as simply and directly as you can. “Hey, I apologize for yelling. I actually think I overreacted. And I’m sorry that my voice got so loud.” And that’s pretty much it.

Then you see how receptive your child is to that. If they’re open to a hug or a high five, that’s another way to affirm the repair. And then you see what it’s like to move on. But you try to handle it pretty directly.

Again, in terms of the timing of things, it’s nice if you can handle it kind of the same day that it happened, shortly after the event happened. If that’s too hard for some reason, I think there’s no wrong time. There’s never too late to say, “Hey, I’ve been thinking about what happened to us last week, last month. It’s been on my mind, and I want to let you know that I apologize.”

Sarah G.: Yeah. And I think then on the other side of that is that children make mistakes as well, right? And that we can give them—some kids are very natural, “Oh, I’m sorry, Mommy,” and explain whatever happened. But at this age, it’s also unusual for them to do that. And so what one can do is give them an opportunity.

If they spilled, “Get the sponge.” Or say they had a big fit and the juice went everywhere—“Let’s get this cleaned up. You can help me by wiping up the floor.” Because we don’t want them to be stuck in that shame state of, “I’ve made this big mistake and my parent’s mad at me.” Even if you’re not yelling, you can be silently really angry. So you can just give them an opportunity to repair. If they’ve hurt another child, “Take this ice pack and go…” You can apologize by bringing over the ice pack, or drawing a picture, or something. I think it’s really helpful too to help them do it. It’s not like we just wait until they’re old enough to do it.

Sarah R: Mm-hmm. I always say repair helps the kid—when you invite them to make a repair, it helps them feel like a good person again.

And it’s an invitation because we’ve all heard that, “Say you’re sorry,” and then the kid’s just like, “Sorry,” and runs away. That’s not actually a repair. I always say, ask them, “What do you think you could do to help your brother feel better?” Which somehow is easier for kids, I think, than “Apologize” or “Tell them you’re sorry.”

But I love that you highlighted that it makes the person doing the repair feel better too.

And I just want to go back to what Kahlila said about doing your own repair with yourself first, because I think it’s really important that a parent making repair doesn’t turn into asking the child for forgiveness. That’s really what we have to do for ourselves first, because it’s not their job to say, “It’s okay, Mommy,” or whatever.

Someone in my life, who shall remain nameless, still has a hard time with doing repair because his mother did the “I’m seeking forgiveness” kind of repairs, and he just feels they’re empty because of that.

Kahlila: Yeah, yeah.

Sarah R: So you talk about tools. A lot of your book is really practical. You share a lot of self-regulation strategies for both parents and kids. So maybe you’ve mentioned a few already, but what’s your favorite strategy for parents from the book—one that you haven’t mentioned yet?

Kahlila: Yeah. I think my favorite strategy for parents—and this is kind of in the first half of the book, not in the strategies part, but you can think of it as a strategy—is actually playing with your kids most days when you can. It doesn’t have to be for a long time, but kids five through eight love to play, and it brings them so much joy and feels so good to them. I think it can be very regulating for kids, and I think it can be really supportive of the relationship.

Even with my older child, yesterday we had a day where it was parent-teacher conferences, he had a half day from school, and afterwards we did errands and it was kind of more relaxed and we had more time to hang out and chat. We just had an easier time with each other and enjoyed each other’s company. The evening routine was really smooth, and there was a lot of goodness between us and connection. The rapport was made even more solid between us.

I see that happen all the time when parents are able to devote even five minutes of undivided, no-screen, no-phone attention with their kid—playing with them, talking with them. It really builds this ease to the connection such that giving directives or following the routine just makes things smoother. So for me, an effective strategy is having a bit of play and fun connection time with your kid once a day, even if it’s only for five minutes. It really lubricates the whole system and makes things easier. It makes kids more motivated to keep that good feeling with you. So that’s one of my favorites.

Sarah R: Your book is really practical, and you do have strategies that parents can teach kids—things they can use in the moment. So what’s your favorite strategy? We’ll just call one out for the podcast here.

Sarah G.: Yeah, I would say, actually, taking a walk. Doing it with your child when—it’s a great way to regulate. Often once you’re calmer, you’re walking, you can repair. And it’s also something kids can really do themselves as they get older. It’s so simple. If things are really chaotic, it’s just like, let’s just start walking. Let’s walk around the—

Sarah R: I love that.

Sarah G.: Walk. Love that.

Sarah R: And that calls back to your “getting outside.” Everything feels better outside.

Sarah G.: Yes, exactly. And it’s funny—I just saw an article in the newspaper this morning about how now, having the phones that we have compared to not very long ago, landlines, people are actually spending so much more time on the phone. So if you can turn off that phone and take a walk—it’s really interrupting the parent-child relationship in a lot of ways. So we have to be very conscientious about doing that. So: a walk with no phone, I should say.

Sarah R: Yeah. I’m so glad that we didn’t have phones when my kids were little because I think about those hours and hours spent at the playground where, frankly, it can get a little bit boring sometimes. And there was nothing to do but interact with the other people or watch your kids. There were no phones to pull out and see what’s going on on Facebook or whatever.

Kahlila: Yeah. Can I have one more?

Sarah R: Oh, sorry. Yes.

Kahlila: Maybe for, you know, it’s a little harder for five-year-olds, but more for seven- or eight-year-olds: the idea of the child asking for a compromise when they are frustrated about something. You’re setting a limit and they’re not happy with the limit, and their response is frustration or anger.

To really help kids practice this as a strategy—it’s like a parent-child strategy—they can feel a lot more empowered when they say, “Okay, well this is the limit, but may I have a compromise?” And you can have a conversation with your parent that often gets you more into the thinking and speaking part of your brain versus the emotional part of your brain. You’re engaging and you’re trying to collaborate with your parent. That in itself calms things down a little bit. Again, it can be empowering for kids to say, “Wait a minute, I have a right to speak here and see if I can ask for a compromise here and work with my mom or dad and talk it through.”

So I really like that one too.

And then it’s not exactly a strategy, but we have this section in our book where we have, I think, about eight kids talking about a time that was hard for them and how they dealt with it emotionally. Kids seeing other kids deal with big emotions and learning from how other kids do it is actually really helpful too. I’ve seen kids really want to absorb that and use it for themselves when they see another kid using a breathing exercise or pretending to blow bubbles or doing something. A lot of kids are learning calming strategies at their school, and so a parent could also say, “Well, what have you been learning at school that helps with you feeling calm at school?” and have the child teach the parent what that strategy is—another nice way of integrating self-regulation practices for kids.

Sarah R: Yeah. I love that you brought up those calming strategies, like the ones that they’ve often learned at school these days, which is great—like blowing on a cup of hot chocolate, or pretending you’re doing that to do the deep breathing.

I love that your book is really more focused on the parents and what the parents can do in terms of self-regulation and co-regulation, because what I hear over and over from parents is, “Yeah, my kid can tell me five calm-down strategies that they’ve learned at school, but in the heat of the moment, they’re not interested in using it.”

So are there things that you suggest for parents when you have a kid who is resistant to those strategies that they know, maybe when they’re calm, they know they can use, but then when they’re upset they are refusing?

Sarah G.: Practice. They need to practice ahead of time. Then the parents have to catch them doing it, even a small amount. Like, “Oh, I saw you started the breathing, but then I guess you got so overwhelmed. That was amazing.” And so—but also, you know, the stop, drop, and roll that they do in schools for fire—you need to do the same thing with these strategies.

Sarah R: Mm-hmm.

Sarah G.: Practice ahead of time. Talk about, “This is going to be a really hard day for you. You’re so tired and we have these events, and what are you going to do when you’re feeling so overwhelmed? What do you think is going to work for you?” So forth.

Sarah R: Yeah, so prep ahead of time. And even afterwards, like, “Oh, that was so tough. You know, maybe next time we can try to do that calming strategy X that you learned at school when you’re feeling that way.” I think that probably reinforces some of the patterns too, just even talking about it later.

Kahlila: Yeah. And if you feel like there’s something that’s not working for your child and it—don’t use it, right? Think outside of the box. Try new things. Do some trial and error. Every kid is unique, and something that may work for one child may not work for another. So discover that over the years and kind of accept the reality of what works for your child and what doesn’t.

Some children may want a very tight bear hug. Other children might want to chew on a piece of gum or something like that, or take a walk. So be attuned to what is happening for your child and believe them when they say, “This doesn’t help.”

Sarah R: Yeah. Love that.

Thank you so much. This is really—I think your book is really great, and we’ll put a link to it in the show notes. Any place you want to send our listeners before we let you go? Any best place to learn more about you and what you do?

Kahlila: I have a website. It’s kahlilarobinsonphd.com. So that’s my website. I have an Instagram account with the same name, Kahlila Robinson PhD. So you can find a little bit more about me and my practice there. We’d be excited to get feedback from people on the book and see how they’re using it and what’s been helpful. So we are so open to hearing back from people.

Sarah R: Awesome. What about you, Sarah?

Sarah G.: Yeah, so anyone can find me at sarahgerstenzang.com. And I echo Kahlila’s request. If people find something useful in the workbook, we just love to—we’re proud of the work, and we’d love to know how it feels to actually use it.

Sarah R: Wonderful. We’ll put those links in the show notes.

Before I let you go, there’s a question that I ask every guest at the end of the podcast. So maybe, Kahlila, you go first, and then I’ll ask you to answer the same question, Sarah. Which is: if you could give some advice to your younger parent self—go back in time and give yourself advice—what advice would you give yourself?

Kahlila: I would probably say: enjoy it more. There’s something about the intensity and the demands of scheduling and routines and pressure and all that kind of stuff. See if you can not sweat the small stuff as much and be a little bit more relaxed about things and enjoy it more.

Sarah R: I love that. That’s so important.

Sarah G.: So we used to have very long dinner hours, and I was just thinking as we were talking about repair today: I should have done more repairs after some of those dinners didn’t go—sort of erupted. We had a nephew living with us for a while, so had four teenagers at a table. Anyway, lots of it was fabulous and wonderful, but also sometimes things happen. So yeah, I think, “Oh, I should have done more repairs after those dinners.”

Sarah R: Well, take your own advice. It’s never too late.

Kahlila: That’s right. That’s right.

Sarah R: Let me know.

Sarah G.: I’ve apologized for everything. Don’t worry.

Sarah R: Oh, good, good.

Well, thank you both so much for coming on. It was a pleasure to meet you, and thanks for all the support you’re giving parents out in the world.

Kahlila: Thank you so much, Sarah. Thank you for having us. It was so nice to be here today.

Sarah R: Thank you.

Sarah G.: I really—

Kahlila: Appreciate it.

Reimagine Peaceful Parenting with Sarah Rosensweet Substack is a reader-supported publication. To support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Strong-willed kids can be some of the most challenging — and the most incredible — kids to parent.

In this bonus mini-episode, Sarah and Corey talk about what makes strong-willed kids unique, why they can feel so hard to parent in everyday moments, and why their determination, honesty, and sense of justice are traits to be celebrated.

They also discuss how small shifts in how we communicate with strong-willed kids can dramatically reduce power struggles while preserving connection.

If you’re parenting a child who pushes back, refuses to be bossed around, and stands firmly in their beliefs, this conversation will help you see their strengths and learn how to work with their temperament instead of constantly fighting against it.

Sarah also shares details about her upcoming workshop on parenting strong-willed kids.

You can find the workshop at https://reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop

00:00 — Strong-willed kids: a blessing and a challengeWhy Sarah and Corey both love working with strong-willed kids.

01:00 — What makes strong-willed kids specialTheir sense of justice, independence, and willingness to question authority.

02:00 — Why strong-willed kids can make everyday parenting harderWhen kids won’t “just put their coat on.”

03:00 — A real-life example of strong-willed determinationSarah’s story about her niece tying her shoes while holding a fidget spinner.

05:00 — The nervous system reaction to being told what to doWhy strong-willed people resist being bossed around.

06:00 — The surprising realization Sarah’s son had at age 13Why he thought one parent was “better.”

07:00 — Power struggles and how to avoid themWhy connection matters so much with strong-willed kids.

08:00 — Workshop announcementParenting Strong-Willed Kids: Tools to Reduce Power Struggles Without Crushing Their Spirit.

Sarah: Hi, Corey.

Corey: Hey, Sarah.

Sarah: Let’s talk about strong-willed kids. Are your kids strong-willed?

Corey: Absolutely.

Sarah: Yeah, both. What about you?

Corey: Both of them. And yes—the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. I am extremely strong-willed.

Sarah: Me too. And my kids— all three of my kids are strong-willed. And me and my husband. You should see us play board games together.

It did make it harder to parent them. And I also love how I am, and I love how my kids were and are. What do you love about strong-willed kids?

Corey: I love so much about strong-willed kids. I actually think some of my favorite clients to work with are those who have strong-willed kids.

Sarah: For sure.

Corey: Because these kids are just… what I love about them is they’re going to change the world. They’re not going to just go along with the crowd. They’re not going to just do things because you said so. They’re going to really think deeply about things. They have this deep sense of right and wrong.

Sarah: Justice. Yeah.

Corey: Yes—justice guiding who they are and what they want to do in the world.

Sarah: Yeah. What I love about strong-willed kids is that they speak their truth. You know how they feel. They’re not afraid to speak their truth about what they like and what they don’t like.

Corey: Yeah. You always know where you stand with them. There’s no guesswork involved with a strong-willed kid.

Sarah: Yeah. And they’re so willing to stand up for what they believe in—even if it comes at a cost to them.

I love how they won’t be bossed around. Because they’re little and they’re still learning, sometimes they don’t realize it’s at their own expense.

Corey: Yes.

Sarah: I think it’s something to be admired. And also, as a parent, it makes it tough sometimes to work with them.

Corey: Absolutely. There have been so many times where I look at my kids, or I’m talking to clients, and we’re just like, “Why can’t they just go put their coat on now?”

We have these busy schedules we’re trying to get through, and sometimes when you have these little strong-willed kids, you feel like you can’t get through the schedule because they won’t just go do what you ask them to do.

Sarah: Yeah.

One time when I was teaching a workshop on strong-willed kids—and another one’s coming up; we’ll get to that—I looked up the dictionary definition of strong-willed. It was something like: tends to do what one wants, even if others advise against it.

And I love that.

It reminds me of something that happened recently. As you know, I was visiting my sister and my niece, who’s eight. I was helping get my niece ready for school. She was tying her shoes, and she had a fidget spinner in one hand while trying to tie them.

Of course, tying your shoes is already tricky when you’re still learning, and trying to do it with a fidget spinner makes it even harder.

I casually said, “Let me hold that.”

She said, “No.”

I started laughing, and she looked at me.

I said, “Have you ever heard the expression cut off your nose to spite your face?”

She said no.

I explained that it basically means making things harder for yourself just to prove a point. I told her, “I don’t care if you hold that fidget spinner while you tie your shoes, but it’s making life harder for you. I love that you don’t want to be bossed around, and I admit I kind of gave you an order to let me hold it. I love that you’re standing up for yourself and not letting anyone boss you around. But holding onto that fidget spinner while tying your shoes is making things harder for you.”

She didn’t say anything.

She finished tying her shoe with the fidget spinner still in her hand.

Then when she moved to the next shoe, she handed it to me and said, “Will you hold this?”

I said, “Sure.”

And she tied her shoe without the fidget spinner.

That’s such a good example of how strong-willed kids can be. If my husband tells me to do something I was already planning to do, I can feel my nervous system activate—like, He can’t tell me what to do.

But because I’m a grown-up with experience, I don’t shout “No!” when that happens.

So that little tweak can really make things easier for strong-willed kids—and for us.

Corey: Absolutely.

And we were saying off camera too—obviously you are also my boss, and you are the only person in my life who can tell me what to do, and I happily do it without that nervous system response.

So all those tweaks that you’ve taught me over the years—how you manage me—show that there really is a way to work with strong-willed people, whether it’s a little kid or a grown-up, to make them feel empowered when you’re working together.

Sarah: Totally.

My middle son is extremely strong-willed. He’s 21 now, but growing up he absolutely would cut off his nose to spite his face so he wouldn’t feel bossed around.

My husband tends to be a bit more traditional—still peaceful, but a little more direct and demanding.

One time when my son was about 13, he said, “Dad’s a better parent than you are.”

I said, “Really? Why do you say that?”

He said, “Because I always do what he tells me to do.”

I knew what he meant. My husband would say things like, “You have to do this,” and my son would comply.

So I asked him, “Have I ever asked you to do something that you didn’t do?”

He stopped and thought.

Then he said, “No.”

The difference was that he didn’t feel bossed around when I asked him to do something.

And he usually did follow my husband too because he felt connected to him—which is another really important thing with strong-willed kids: connection.

But it was funny watching his face as the realization landed. The ground shifted for him.

He realized, “I do what my mom asks too. I just don’t notice that she’s telling me what to do.”

I thought that was hilarious.

Corey: That shows you worked with him so effectively that he didn’t even notice directions were happening.

Sarah: Yeah, exactly.

Well, there are so many fun things to talk about with strong-willed kids. I love them so much.

But I also see parents every day—and I know you do too—who feel really stuck. They feel like they’re constantly battling and getting into power struggles.

That’s why I’m teaching a workshop on this.

It’s on Wednesday, March 18th at noon Eastern time. You can go to reimaginepeacefulparenting.com/workshop to sign up.

If you have a strong-willed kiddo, this workshop is for you.

If you’re in our membership, it’s included, so don’t sign up separately.

It’s a live workshop on Zoom where we’ll talk about how to work with strong-willed kids so you can get through the day without feeling like you’re constantly fighting with them—while still preserving connection and getting the things done that need to get done.

If you can’t make it live, you’ll get the replay and a cheat sheet afterward.

If you’re listening to this on the podcast, we’ll put the link in the show notes.

If you’re seeing this on Instagram, the link is in my bio.

I hope to see everyone there.

Thanks, Corey.

Corey: Thank you.

You can listen wherever you get your podcasts or check out the fully edited transcript of our interview at the bottom of this post.

I am so excited I was able to interview a parenting thought leader I greatly admire. Lenore did not disappoint! So much wisdom, and so much fun! I think you’ll love this podcast episode.In this episode of The Peaceful Parenting Podcast, I interview Lenore Skenazy, author of “Free-Range Kids,” which grew into the Free-Range Kids movement. Now she is president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit that is making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back independence. We talk about screens, anxiety, free play, and why childhood independence matters more than ever.

👉 Also- just announced- I’m teaching a workshop next week: “Parenting Strong-Willed Kids: Tools to Reduce Power Struggles without Crushing Their Spirit.” All the details HERE.

Know someone who might appreciate this episode? Share it with them!

And if you love the podcast, FREE ways to help us out: 1- Rate and review the podcast in your podcast player app 2- “Like” this post by tapping the heart icon ♥️ 3- Share this with a friend. THANK YOU!

We talk about:

* 00:00 — Introduction to Lenore Skenazy

* 03:00 — The disappearance of unstructured childhood and why kids need risk, boredom, and problem-solving

* 06:00 — How independence builds confidence

* 08:00 — The social pressure parents feel

* 09:00 — How communities can bring back free play

* 15:00 — What kids learn through unsupervised play

* 19:00 — Why kids prefer real-world play to screens

* 24:00 — How fear reshaped parenting

* 29:00 — The rise of tracking and constant surveillance

* 34:00 — Independence and mental health

* 37:00 — The Let Grow Experience

* 41:00 — Kids are not actually addicted to screens

* 42:00 — Bringing back the teenage babysitter

* 46:00 — How giving kids independence reduces the pressure of intensive parenting

* 49:00 — The value of “kid world”

* 50:00 — Lenore’s advice to her younger parent self

Resources mentioned in this episode:

* Lenore’s Book Free Range Kids

* Two free independence-building programs for schools

* The free “Four Weeks to a Let Grow Kid” program

* Yoto Screen Free Audio Book Player

* The Peaceful Parenting Membership

* Evelyn & Bobbie bras

* Strong-Willed Kids Workshop

Connect with Sarah Rosensweet:

* Instagram

* Facebook Group

* YouTube

* Website

* Join us on Substack

* Newsletter

* Book a short consult or coaching session call

xx Sarah and Corey

Your peaceful parenting team- click here for a free short consult or a coaching session

Visit our website for free resources, podcast, coaching, membership and more!

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Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode of the Peaceful Parenting Podcast. Today’s guest is Lenore Skenazy. You might know her as the author of the book Free-Range Kids and the founder of the movement of the same name. Now she’s president of Let Grow, the national nonprofit she co-founded with Peter Gray, Daniel Shuchman, and Jonathan Haidt. Their mission: making it easy, normal, and legal to give kids back some old-fashioned independence.

Lenore says our kids are smarter, safer, and stronger than our culture gives them credit for. If you’re worried about the ubiquitousness of screens in your child’s life and/or about the rise of childhood anxiety, you’re going to want to have a listen to this episode. Lenore and I discussed the importance of unstructured, unsupervised time in childhood, why it disappeared, how to bring it back, and what happens when we do or don’t.

She was so much fun to speak with, and her message is one that all parents need to hear and that all kids want them to hear.

I just loved this conversation with Lenore, and I know you will too. Okay. Let’s meet Lenore.

Sarah: Hi, Lenore. Welcome to the podcast.

Lenore: Thank you, Sarah. I am happy to be here, wherever here is.

Sarah: Well, I’m so excited to talk to you. I’ve followed your work since you were called the Worst Mom in America, back in the beginning of your Free-Range Kids days. I’m so excited about your new project that you’ve been working on. So maybe, if you could just introduce yourself and tell us who you are and what you do.

Lenore: Sure. I am Lenore Skenazy. I live in New York City. I have two grown kids—growing, grown, whatever you want to say. When are they done? I don’t know. But I wrote the book Free-Range Kids, and I am now president of Let Grow, which is the nonprofit that’s promoting childhood independence.

Sarah: I love it. I was recently—this, I promise, is going to make sense when I get back to it—but I recently listened to the memoir of Patti Smith, the artist and musician, and she talked a lot about her childhood growing up in the fifties, and how unsupervised and unstructured it was, and all of that. She had really great memories of playing in the woods, and the games that she would make up with her brothers and all of the neighborhood kids and the things that they would do. And I really wondered: is that kind of childhood why she became such a creative person and, you know, a successful person in that way? And it made me feel sad for that kind of childhood that’s lost to kids today.

So why don’t kids have that sort of unstructured, unsupervised play, like maybe you and I even grew up with? Because I know I did, for sure.

Lenore: I did, for sure, too. And everybody did. Some people ended up being Patti Smith, and most of us didn’t. Nonetheless, I’m sorry to see it evaporating too.

One of my recent analogies is that the rainforest was sort of disappearing, but we didn’t notice until we looked at pictures from before and after, from 1970 till now, and it’s like, oh my God, that’s the earth’s lungs, and look how small they’ve gotten. And I feel that same way about unsupervised time in childhood. It’s this natural resource. It’s something that all kids thrive on having, and we just keep shrinking it and replacing it with organized and supervised activities that we think are better, that we think, oh, now they’re learning chess, or they’ve made it to the travel lacrosse team—that has to be good. You’re up in Canada: made it to the travel hockey team. That’s gotta be good. More time in the luge—that’s wonderful, right?

But in fact, what kids really need, and what their whole innards are programmed to expect, is all sorts of time when they’re making up their own games, when they’re dealing with some fears and some squabbles with their friends as they figure out, what are we gonna do today? And, you know, is that tree gonna be too hard to climb? Let me try.

Without those everyday experiences of a little bit of fear, a little bit of risk, some exhilaration that nobody is there to give you credit for or a trophy for or a grade for, there’s something called the internal locus of control.

Internal locus of control is when you feel you can handle things. Things will come at you and you’ll deal, because you are confident and competent enough. An external locus of control is when you feel others are both manipulating you and taking care of you, that your fate is in someone else’s hands.

We’ve sort of swapped the internal locus of control of Patti Smith’s childhood and our childhoods for this external locus of control where somebody’s saying, okay, it’s three o’clock, I’m gonna pick you up, and then we get you to dance, and then we got Kumon, and then there’s homework, and then there’s dinnertime, and 20 minutes exactly of reading, because that’s how you’re gonna turn into a kid who loves reading. “Okay, start. Stop. I really love that. Really fell into that book.”

What I’m trying to say is that Mother Nature expected kids to get all of this give and take and excitement and confusion, and when we take it out, kids end up drooping because it’s like they haven’t gotten something very necessary for their development, sort of like food, except it’s independence and it’s free play. And we keep looking around saying, oh, it must be COVID that’s making kids so depressed. It must be phones that are making kids so anxious. And I think it’s just the fact that they have this very strange childhood, unlike what the system expects. And when you’re missing something foundational, you droop.

Sarah: Our mutual friend Ned Johnson, who’s a co-author of The Self-Driven Child—

Lenore: Love it.

Sarah: They talk a lot in that book about how we want our kids to be self-driven, but that self-drive and autonomy are correlated, in that when autonomy goes down, so does self-drive.

Lenore: They are the same thing! It’s so funny because we say we want self-driven kids, and then we drive them. Literally drive them to the Kumon and the Jazzercise.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s—I mean, I want to come back to, when kids have time on their own, they learn that they can figure it out. But just on a funny note about that self-driven and driving them places, it’s really hard to raise your kids this way—with unstructured, unsupervised time—when nobody else is doing it.

I remember, I live in a big city, and from the age of 12, when my kids were—I thought 12 was a good age for them to start getting around the city by themselves. They did. And of course, it wasn’t just like, okay, all of a sudden you’re going on the subway by yourself, but we worked up to it. So by the time they were 12, they were capable.

But I got so much judgment from other parents. My middle son played baseball, and he would get himself to practices and get himself home. And there were parents who would insist on giving him rides because they were concerned about him going on the subway by himself. And then I kind of had to give myself little reassurances, like, it’s okay, it’s okay if they’re judging you for having your kids be out and about by themselves. But how do you—maybe I’m getting ahead of myself, because we could talk about some ideas first—but when you are doing this on your own, say you’re letting your kids do things that you think are age-appropriate, developmentally appropriate, and then other people aren’t, what are some ways that parents can kind of give themselves some self-talk? What should I have told myself back then?

Lenore: Okay, I’m not going to talk about self-talk. I’m going to talk about changing the culture that you’re in so that you’re not the only one sending your kid to the park. And then also what Let Grow, the nonprofit I run, suggests in terms of giving kids back an easy way to give kids back some of this free play that we’re talking about.

First of all, if you want your kid to be playing outside, it’s no fun for them to play outside—whether people think you’re the worst mom or not—if they go outside to the park and, let’s see, I can keep going down the slide. That’s a lot of fun. You know, you need somebody to play tag with. You need somebody to talk to. You need somebody to swing next to or to push you.

So how do you get that? You talk to some of the other parents in the neighborhood and you say, let’s set up Free Play Fridays, right? I know everybody’s really busy, but a Friday afternoon before the weekend begins—how about from three to five, we all let our kids just play at the park together?

And I’ve heard about this working in many communities, including one 12-year-old who was so bored—I don’t know how he found out about it; I guess his mom must have known me or something—who went and put postcards in all the neighbors’ mailboxes, and he ended up with like 20 or 25 kids playing on Friday afternoons because he said, hey, let’s all meet, and parents, you don’t have to come. It’s not impossible to renormalize the idea of free play in a neighborhood.

And if you can’t get a bunch of kids coming together at the park, another idea somebody once sent to Let Grow, which I love—she called it a friendship club or friendship camp because she did it during summer. And it was simply this: in your neighborhood, there are probably some families that also would like to see their kids playing more, especially during the summer perhaps. And so what she did is she sort of made a pact with three or four other families that, look, my kid can knock on your kid’s door, your kids can knock on my kid’s door, and if my kid’s available, then that’s it. They’ll play. I won’t supervise them. I’ll know that they’re there. They can play outside, inside.

And that way you’ve sort of made it like the fifties. So now there’s kids going around the neighborhood knocking on each other’s doors, and that way you don’t have to worry about planning a play date, and you don’t have to have a phone involved. It’s just going door to door and finding these three or four friends who’s around.

People have started swearing by the landlines that you can buy now, or these pseudo-landlines. There’s one called Tin Can. And so kids can call up each other and set up a play date without falling into a phone and then never coming out again.

So those are all ways that you can sort of make free play happen again in your neighborhood. But what Let Grow recommends on top of all those is trying to get—we have something we call a Let Grow Play Club, but we might change the name for middle and high school because play sounds so babyish. And really what we’re talking about is the—

Sarah: Hang club. Call it the Hang Club.

Lenore: The Hanging Club. I was thinking of calling it the third—I can’t remember if it’s called a third space or a third place—but like when Starbucks started, everyone was excited because now there’s a third place. It’s not work and it’s not home. We can go and hang out.

So this would be having schools stay open for mixed-age, no-phones free play.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And it solves so many problems. First of all, if you send kids home to play, we just discussed that oftentimes they won’t end up at the park because there’s nobody else at the park. So they’ll be back in their room on a phone, or you’re paying a lot of money and spending a lot of time driving them someplace else to be on an organized team, league, whatever. But at school, all the kids are already there, right? So it’s just a question of them staying a little longer.

If you’re in a very dangerous, scary neighborhood, you’re not sending them to the park. You’re just saying, you know, how about from three to five, four days a week, there could be a play club where there’s an adult supervising, but like a lifeguard.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Right? So they’re not organizing games. They’re not solving the problems, the arguments. They’re just watching and they’re there in case of a shark or some other emergency.

And then the kids—and then you leave some stuff out for the kids. And actually, you’ll see this particular idea recommended in The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Haidt, who’s one of my co-founders of Let Grow. And one of the coolest things I found out, because I was helping him on the chapter for schools, was if you’re having a Let Grow Play Club after school, you should always have some really big sandbags there for the kids to play with. And do you know why?

Sarah: No.

Lenore: Take a guess. What’s the good of a sandbag?

Sarah: Like, how big are the sandbags you’re talking about?

Lenore: Like the size of a pillow.

Sarah: Okay.

Lenore: Like a filled pillow.

Sarah: For bases.

Lenore: Yeah, that’s something you could definitely use for bases.

Sarah: For some, any kind of markers and games.

Lenore: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And for building. And the sort of sneaky reason for having sandbags is that a kid can’t carry them by themself.

Sarah: Oh, it involves cooperation.

Lenore: It automatically creates cooperation, which is what playing in the woods does, which is what organizing a game of baseball does. And you want kids to have these easy ways of interacting and getting to know each other, the non-awkward ways.

Sarah: Right.

Lenore: And saying, hey, help me with this. Or like, look, we gotta bring this over here, it’s third base. Yeah, you’re doing something together and you’re automatically starting a relationship without any kind of like, “Will you be my friend?” Right. Or “I’m so lonely, Lily.” It’s not that.

And that’s what play has always done. Who are your friends? As Peter Gray, who’s another one of my Let Grow co-founders and a professor of psychology, says: when you’re a kid, a friend is defined as a kid you play with.

Sarah: Right.

Lenore: You know, “I’m going to Julie’s house.” What are we gonna do? “We’re gonna play.” Okay. I’ll see you at seven.

And so you want to have a bunch of stuff that—the technical term, I guess it’s not that technical, is loose parts.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: You want to have loose parts out there, and kids can bring them from home. And I’m talking remote-control cars and old suitcases and fabric and some rope or PVC pipe. Kids just figure out what to do with it. And so they’re being creative, and they’re explaining, “No, we’re gonna build it this way.” That’s communication. And then they’re cooperating.

“We’re gonna drag this bag over here.” And all the social-emotional skills that kids are getting now in worksheets on the rug during their social-emotional-skills-building time, you know, or little cards that say, “Remember, you’re not alone. Remember, people like you. You are good. You’re kind.” It’s like all this sort of fallacious confidence and connection happens automatically through play.

You play with the kids you like, and frankly, if you’re a total jerk and nobody wants to play with you, you start recognizing that and adjusting.

We’ve seen this in a play club. My favorite story about a play club was a kid who—everybody was jumping into a leaf pile. It was down in South Carolina. And they’d jump in the middle, and it’d be really fun, or they’d do a cartwheel into the middle, whatever, and then they’d leave and then it’d be the next kids. And they were organizing themselves.

And then one kid jumped into the middle of the leaf pile and would not budge. He was just there. And everyone’s like, “Hey, get out of the way. Hey, you’re in the way. Move already. Hey, it’s my turn.” And he was just like, “I can’t hear you.”

And so finally the kids said, “Well, let’s just jump around him. There’s enough leaves.” And so they started doing that, and then the kid—the middle-of-the-leaf-pile kid—walked off.

And what’s wonderful about this is that the kids saw a problem, tried a solution—move, move, move—that didn’t work, and then came up with another solution: ignore him.

And had there been an adult who was jumping in to save them, to save the leaf-pile day, first of all, the kid would’ve gotten all the attention, because the other kids would just be waiting while the teacher says, “Now, you know, Aiden, we don’t sit in the middle of a leaf pile. There are other children. You see them there.” And then the kids—that would’ve been completely nothing. They just would’ve been waiting for an adult, as always, to solve the problem.

And they wouldn’t have been creative and they wouldn’t have been working together to solve a problem. But instead they did. And so that’s why you need free play, so that all those skills come into play. And by the way, it’s fun and it’s what kids should be doing.

But if you have a school starting a play club, all our materials are free, and they basically explain the philosophy behind why loose-parts free play is good and why it’s great to have different ages together because, you know, the older kids sort of are nicer to the younger kids.

Peter Gray always says, if you have seven-year-olds trying to play a card game together, it’s a disaster. It cannot work. But if you have nine-year-olds with the seven-year-olds, the nine-year-olds are so cool that the seven-year-olds want to be like them. And then the nine-year-olds are saying, like, hold up your hand. We can see your cards. Don’t put the—you know, don’t put an ace down. And they take the ace and they put it back in the kid’s hand. You don’t throw the ace down until the end.

And so it sounds like maybe some yelling or whining or complaining, and yet it’s education. And the older kids are learning how to explain a game, and the younger kids are learning how to be the older kids. And we keep segregating kids by age so that it’s only seven-year-olds against seven-year-olds in baseball or soccer or hockey, and all you know is who’s the fastest and who’s the best.

Sarah: I love it. I was watching some of the videos on your website, and there was one, a free play after school video, and the loose parts in this video were cardboard.

Lenore: Mm-hmm.

Sarah: And it actually—it’s going to make me cry—it moved me to tears, watching these kids. And there was this one scene of all these little kids, the game was two kids hold up the cardboard and another kid runs through it. And there was this clip of them working out whose turn it was and who was going to go next. And then they’re just doing the activity, and all the other things they were doing with the cardboard. It was so—they were all so immersed and at times joyful, and it was just so great to see, like, so wonderful to see. I really think it’s so great what you are doing.

And I think, you know, a lot of Jonathan Haidt’s book was about screens, and everyone’s worried about screens, and I think you talk about this too: the reason it becomes this vicious cycle, like a chicken and egg, is kids don’t have anything to do, parents don’t have anything for them to do, so they are on screens. And then they’re on screens and then they don’t get out and play. So it sounds like part of the answer here is doing the—getting the play going first.

Lenore: Yeah. First of all, I love that video too. And what I love about that game they’re playing with the two kids holding a piece of cardboard, and they’re all arguing like, who’s gonna go first to punch the cardboard? Which doesn’t seem like the funnest game in the world, but they were so eager. It’s like, “You’ll go first, then I’ll go.” “No, no, he’ll go and then I’ll go and then you’ll go.” It is just such a beautiful thing to see. And it’s all the different ages, it’s all the different races, and it all seems to be boys because who’s stupid enough to—

Sarah: The girls don’t want to punch cardboard. My kid one time was telling me about her two friends who were boys who were doing this thing as they were riding their bikes down the street, and they were spitting up into the air ahead of themselves and then trying to ride through the spit. And she was like, “Only boys would do that.”

Lenore: That is just weird.

Sarah: It works. It’s so much less waste in a milk bag.

Lenore: It sounds really smart.

Sarah: So anyways—

Lenore: No, no, I did grow up here, but we also don’t have milk cartons. We have milk bags. That sounds really smart.

Sarah: It works. It’s so much less waste in a milk bag. Everybody in—at least in Eastern Canada—we have like a plastic pitcher that’s got an open top, and the milk comes in a big bag with three smaller, like liter-and-a-half bags in it. Just picture a bag of milk.

Lenore: A bag of bags.

Sarah: You put your bag of milk in the pitcher and you snip a little hole in the corner. And then you pour it from the pitcher in the bag, and it’s far less waste than four gallons.

Lenore: Be Canadians. What can I say? We’ve got it all.

Sarah: So anyways, no, no, I did grow up in the US though, and we did have the pictures on the milk cartons.

Lenore: Right. So those pictures on the milk cartons did a number on us because, first of all, they said, like, “Have you seen me?” or “Missing,” and they never had a little asterisk that says, “I was taken in a custodial dispute between my divorcing parents.”

Sarah: Right.

Lenore: Because that was the vast majority of the kids, or they were runaways. But it felt like, since nobody explained this, that these were all children who were kidnapped by strangers off the street while riding their bike or walking home.

That’s also the era we got cable television, which gave us the 24-hour news cycle, which had never been part of anybody’s life until then.

And then there was when Adam Walsh was taken—it was a horrible story—but his dad was John Walsh, and he started America’s Most Wanted, and he went around the country and in fact ended up testifying in front of Congress that 50,000 children are kidnapped and murdered every year, which was off by a factor of about 50,000. Because it’s extraordinarily rare.

And so it just started seeming like, you know, you open the door and you let your kid outside and you’ll never see them again. Ann Landers or Dear Abby—or one of the advice columnists of the era—said that you better take, you know, try to write down or take a picture of your child before they leave for school, so you know what they’re wearing, because you won’t be able to give the information.

There was just a lot of panic about something that is extraordinarily rare.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And so it just became the norm to not let them out of our sight. And then a couple of other things happened in tandem with this. One is, of course, we’re in a litigious society, and so schools thinking like, well, what if something bad does happen, even though it probably won’t? We don’t want to be sued. Let’s just say that no kid can get off the bus, or that no kid can play on the monkey bars, or that we can’t have any swings.

And then you have experts, and experts are always trying to tell you something really scary that they’re an expert in, that if you don’t do this, you know, something terrible will happen. Parents magazine would come—like, you gotta give it to those editors at Parents magazine—they had to come up with something terrifying every month.

Sarah: Well, it sells, right? And headlines, you know, clicks today and headlines.

Lenore: Right. And then there’s a marketplace, and the marketplace is always trying to figure out something that can sell, and sell a lot. And the best thing you can do is sell parents a product that’s going to save their kid from something horrible.

I was just reading a study that was done about tracking devices, and I think at this point it was like 86% of parents track their kids. And, you know, some tell them that they’re being tracked and some don’t.

There’s the Gizmo watch. If you buy it for your kid, it’s a tracking device and a phone. And if they don’t pick up the phone, what happens?

Sarah: 911.

Lenore: No, that’d be really terrible. I mean, I can—

Sarah: I can picture it.

Lenore: I could picture it too, but right now what happens is that it turns into a bugging device.

Sarah: Oh gosh.

Lenore: So that you can listen to see, is your kid like, “No, get away from me, stranger”? Or—you know—but it also allows parents to hear, like, “I hate my sister,” or “I’m mad at my teacher,” or “I ate a candy bar.” I mean, it just gives kids no life outside of constant surveillance, which is what we used to do with prisoners on work release. They had this kind of monitoring, right? They had an ankle monitor and you could see if the guy was going to work and then coming right back home. And even the prisoners knew that this was better than prison. Beats prison, right? But it’s not freedom.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lenore: What does a lack of freedom do to kids? I think the biggest thing is that it tells them two things. One is that the world is so scary and bad that you better not just be out there on your own, and also that your parents don’t think you can handle being out there on your own.

And I’ve been trying to grapple with this for a while. I was talking to these teenagers, and it was about eight years ago at this point, because at that point not everybody was tracked yet. But one of the kids who was tracked said to me something really strange. He said, “I just wish that I”—he was over 16—“I wish I’d get pulled over for speeding.”

I was like, that’s a very strange wish. Why?

And he said, “Because I would have to deal with it myself.”

He was longing—I mean, I think there’s this human longing to see what you’re made of and to prove to yourself and to the world that you can handle something on your own.

And with the ability to always be tracked by your parents and always press a button and be connected to your parents, your parents are on call for you in a way that was never possible until just now.

And it’s nice to help. You know, you want to help your kids. So if they call—my kids to this day, they’re in their twenties—if they call, they’re having a problem, I will help. But the instantaneousness of it means that without trying to figure out an answer, solve something on their own, kids can reach you and then you solve it. So you don’t know what they’re capable of and they don’t know what they’re capable of.

And so then you answer the next time, and the next time, and the next time, and you track them. And nobody ever gets the peace of mind. You know, the tracking devices say they’ll provide peace of mind, but they provide the opposite because, yes, it’s nice to know they’re gonna be home in time for dinner, but you also don’t know that, like if they were on a trip or even walking home or riding their bike and their chain fell off their bike—it’s a point of pride if you make it home with a broken bike or if you fix the chain, and it’s not a point of pride if you call your dad and say, can you come help me?

The dad feels proud, but he thinks, oh, my little girl can’t do anything yet. And the little girl thinks, oh, my dad—I can’t do anything yet.

So I think it changes a lot about the parent-child relationship, and it changes the child’s relationship to themselves because it’s not just themself. It’s themself plus this squad.

Sarah: I think it also reduces community. The example that you just gave—I could picture if that happened to one of my kids and they couldn’t figure out how to put the chain back on, they might stop somebody and say, can you help me with this? Or, you know, go into a garage and ask for a screwdriver from the mechanic to put their—you know—and just their interconnectedness that we all have with each other. I think if there’s just a direct line between parent and child, we lose out on that sense of community.

Lenore: That is so true. And it reminds me of a piece I haven’t run yet about a mom whose kid was sort of radicalized online and ended up in a locked ward for a little while, and then came out and gradually got better through doing music and through having friends.

And then he called her one day and he said, “Mom, the greatest thing—” Oh no, he came home and he said, “The greatest thing just happened to me.” And she’s like, what? Because she’s so grateful that he’s doing much, much better now. He’s in high school.

And he said, “I got a flat tire on my bike.”

She’s like, okay, that sounds just great. What do you mean?

And he had done exactly what you just said. That’s why it reminded me. He had found a bike shop and he’d gone in there and asked for help, and they fixed it. And he got back on his bike, and they didn’t even charge him because he is a nice young man and they were helping, and everybody felt great.

But for him it was so important to solve a problem, a real-world problem, on his own, that he regarded it as one of the highlights of his life to date.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And his mom, in talking to me about the dire darkness that he’d been in and climbing back out to light, felt that this was one of the things that was crucial.

And I know that we keep racing to help our kids, and we’re doing this out of love and wanting to help them, to provide for them. And it’s really hard to see that stepping back is also a gift.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Right? You’re giving kids this gift of trust and independence and time when they can figure stuff out on their own. And I think it would go a long way to solving a lot of the anxiety crisis and the depression crisis that we see in young people because, of course, you feel depressed if you don’t think you can handle anything, and you’re anxious if you think, what’s gonna happen? I can’t handle it.

So with us being there all the time, out of the goodness of our hearts, we’re really preventing some growth from happening.

Sarah: Yeah. And you make a big—in your TED Talk and other things you’ve written—you make a big connection to that stuff and childhood anxiety, which you’ve mentioned a few times, but maybe you could speak directly to how you think that this is related to anxiety, which has certainly spiked in the last few years.

Lenore: Well, it’s not just me noticing that anxiety is going up. I know that right now the focus is all on the phones, but the anxiety was going up for decades, long before there were phones. And so our colleague Peter Gray, who’s the psychology professor at Boston College, did a piece in the Journal of Pediatrics that came out now three years ago, and it just showed that over the decades—not just since COVID, not just since the iPhone—over the decades, as children’s independence and free play have waned, their anxiety and depression have been going up. And by the way, their creativity has also been going down.

And it’s not just correlation, it’s causation, for all the reasons that we’ve just been discussing. It’s when you figure out what you like to do and you make it happen, and it doesn’t work, and then you work harder and you make it happen now—we all know that the triumph of like, oh my God, the cake didn’t rise, and now I made it and it did. That’s what kids need day after day after day.

And instead they’re getting lessons. They’re getting school, and then after school they get more school that just happens to be school about lacrosse or school about chess.

And so the antidote is more independence. And there are two things I’d like to say about that.

One is that Let Grow has a free program for schools that’s really easy. It takes like 15 minutes twice a month, and it’s called the Let Grow Experience. If you go to letgrow.org, you click on it, there it is. And what it is, is it’s a homework assignment that teachers give their kids—or that a counselor can give the kids, whoever it is at the school—once a month that says, go home and do something new on your own with your parents’ permission, but without your parents.

And each month there’s a slightly different tinge to it, like do something with a friend, or do something for your family, or do something out in the community. But the whole idea is for the kid to see that the world is their oyster. I can go to the store. I can bake the cake. I can climb the tree. And it’s for the parents to sit there shaking the whole time, yet their kid is getting the milk or whatever.

And then have this burst of joy when their kid comes through the door. They brought the milk. Oh, and look, they also brought cookies. I didn’t say to get cookies. Okay, they brought cookies. And recognizing that their kid is growing up and competent and isn’t a baby anymore, is capable of being a real person.

And that’s the joy that we keep taking out of parents’ lives by saying, you have to be with them every single second. Imagine if they came through the door: oh my God, you missed the home run. They get to tell you, it was a home run. You should have seen it. Everybody was cheering, and I thought I wasn’t gonna make it, and I did.

You know, you don’t have to be there for every triumph of your kid’s life. They can tell you about it too. And you just feel this joy of recognizing there’s a person separate from you who’s going forth in the world and making it happen.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: So we really recommend the Let Grow Experience.

And the other thing that I wanted to say originally about the importance of independence and being able to go around your neighborhood and be part of it is that we are all concerned about phones. And so over the summer, when we did that study about parents who think that their kids are going to be kidnapped, we also had the Harris Poll do a study of kids age eight to 12. And one of the questions they asked was: if you could play with your friends in any way, or you could hang out with your friends in any way, which way would you prefer? Either just free play, hanging out in the neighborhood, no adults, whatever, or in an organized activity—it could be knitting or hockey or chess—or online. And that could be playing video games or Snapchatting or just texting each other, whatever. Which would you prefer?

And I realize that this is audio, so I’m going to show you a graph, but I will also explain it. There’s a giant part of the graph that’s what kids most prefer, and that is just hanging out, free play.

Sarah: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Second choice is organized activity, and trailing far behind is phones, screen time, phones.

And so we keep thinking that kids are addicted to their phones. But kids are addicted to each other, and when we don’t let them meet up one way or another in real life, they will go where they can. Okay, everybody’s at soccer or everybody’s online, but that’s not by choice.

We keep thinking that kids are online by desire, but it’s by default. And default is ours. Sorry, that’s the first time I tried out that pun.

Sarah: I like it.

Lenore: But I would say that the fault is ours—and not individually. Culturally, we’ve just decided that kids can’t be roaming around the neighborhood and can’t be trusted with some free time. We think that they’re gonna fall behind or they’re gonna be—and that’s why we began this discussion with, well, if you want your kids to be outside, what can you do? You gather together with other friends and you make a pact. You send them to the park. Or you ask your school to keep the school open for the Let Grow Play Club. And then there they are.

It’s just so fun to watch. You watch them and you just can’t believe how funny and creative and sometimes bored and sometimes mad, and then problem-solving, they are. Because the desire is to play, and they make it happen by hook or by crook.

Sarah: I have another idea for you that is—

Lenore: Oh, great. Let me hear.

Sarah: Bring back the teenage babysitter.

Lenore: Yes.

Sarah: When I was growing up, everyone—myself and all my friends and my sister—we all had summer babysitting jobs. Because I think part of the reason why parents overschedule their kids and they’re in camp all summer in these activities is because they need childcare. Right, right. And even—I didn’t need childcare in the summers when my kids were little because I was a stay-at-home mom, but there were no other kids for them to play with. So I would actually tell other parents, hey, don’t put your kid in camp this week, and I’ll take care of them.

But when I was a kid, the 14-, 15-, 16-year-olds would have their summer charges. And this could work for after school as well. And then we would get together with our friends at a park or the neighborhood pool or whatever who had the kids that they were babysitting for. And they would all play together.

And even if you don’t have your teenage babysitter get together with other kids that are being babysat, they still have—they can still play instead of being in the organized activities. And honestly, I work with enough parents who have teenagers who—the teenagers say there aren’t any jobs. There’s no way for me to make money. And they don’t have anything to do either.

And lots of teenagers love kids. My kids all loved babysitting. And that’s another thing too, though, is that a lot of parents are afraid to let their kids be babysat by teenagers because they think they’re not responsible, which is totally not true in most cases. So maybe in Let Grow you could talk about bringing back the teenage babysitters.

Lenore: First of all, I think you should write a blog post for us about that, but you should probably just get it in the Globe and Mail. I mean, that’s just a great idea because it gives teens a job.

And then I thought what you were gonna say is bring back the teen babysitter because unlike a professional nanny or a coach, who’s paid to really be assiduously watching every single second of them or teaching them a skill, a teen babysitter might be sitting on the couch eating Cheetos, which means that the kids do have to entertain themselves more.

Sarah: Yeah.

Lenore: Or a teenage babysitter might say, let’s go outside and we’ll play a game together, because they’re still of game-playing age, young enough they—

Sarah: Wanna play. Yeah.

Lenore: Yeah, yeah. No, I think that’s really great.

And one of the things Peter says about a Let Grow Play Club is that you don’t have to have a professional teacher at however many dollars an hour running that. You can hire a teen or a couple of teens from the local high school.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And then, like you said, they’ve got a job, and then the kids have somebody who’s supervising them who’s not inclined to micromanage—

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: Or teach.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: So that’s a great idea.

You know, I’ve spoken to parents who were teenage babysitters and would not hire a teenage babysitter now, and also wouldn’t even let their teen be a babysitter because of this wholesale undermining of our trust in what our kids are capable of.

And when you say like, they’re not responsible enough—well, of course, if they have no responsibility, how can they even prove that they’re responsible? Which is sort of why I’m worried about phones and tracking. It’s like, how do you prove that you’re responsible when somebody can always check to see? I mean—

Sarah: Yeah.

Lenore: That’s—how do you prove I didn’t go to the party? I said I wasn’t gonna go to the party. I wouldn’t go to the party. Maybe you didn’t go to the party because you knew I could track you. It’s like, well, how do I ever prove to you how capable I am and how mature and responsible I—it’s hard.

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a great conversation. I love the work that you’re doing and that Let Grow is doing. And I love the title—in my mind I had a “let it” in there, and then today I was like, oh, it’s Let Grow, like let go.

Lenore: That’s exactly—that was our original name, was Let Go and Let Grow. And then our executive director’s husband said, why don’t you just shorten it? And so we did. And it’s a terrible name in some ways—people think it is “let it go” or “let it grow” or “let’s go,” and “let grow” is a weird phrase. But that is the whole point.

Sarah: I love it. I think it’s great, and I love the work that you’re doing. And I wish that—I hope this catches on.

It’s interesting. I got interviewed for a radio piece the other day, and there was an article, and the article was about trending searches. And whoever wrote it seemed to think that the trend and the trending searches were about parents looking for ways to get their kids off screens, of course. But all the trending searches were adult-organized activities.

Lenore: Yes.

Sarah: You know what I mean? And so I said to the radio person, I was like, you know, these are all great, and maybe these are a really wonderful bridge from screens to being outside or doing creative play or whatever. But really, adults just need to get out of kids’ way. And that’s the key here, is that we need to get out of kids’ way and just let them do what they’re naturally predisposed to do.

Lenore: And also it gives us back our lives.

I mean, speaking of trends, the birthrate is plummeting and parents are stressed and some giant percent say they’re just barely getting through every day. And of course that’s the case.

I was just—there was somebody on, I don’t know, Twitter or Instagram today saying, like, I can’t believe it. My kids are saying, “Where’s my Lego?” and “What can I eat?” and “What can I do?” And I’m like, those are all questions that could be answered by a kid and not by you.

Sarah: Mm-hmm.

Lenore: And then that would get them more engaged in life, and that would give you time to read a book or run away from home, which sounds like it’d be great for everyone.

The whole point of my TED Talk was “I did it myself” is so important for kids, and it gives parents back their world too. Not everything has to be you watching them do something that you can see.

Sarah: Yeah. It’s really the answer to making intensive parenting less intensive.

And honestly, for me, a lot of the reason why my kids had so much of this unsupervised time was because I’m a bit lazy. Like, I remember this one time—I was thinking about this in terms of, like, the kids sometimes they’ll make mistakes and they won’t get it exactly right. I was bringing my daughter and her friend somewhere—they were probably eight—after dance class, I think I’d picked them up, and they were hungry, so I said, let’s get you each a piece of pizza.

But living in a city, it’s hard to find a place to park to go into the pizza place. So I said, I’ll give you some money. I’m going to pull over here in the no-parking area, and you two go in and get yourself some pizza. And I’m sitting out there like, this is taking an awfully long time.

And they came back with a medium pizza, like a whole pizza.

Lenore: Oh, that’s so funny. Wow.

Sarah: And they had somehow, instead of ordering two slices, somehow they had ordered a whole pizza. And they were a little surprised too. But I just laughed and I thought, how cool that they were doing this thing themselves and it didn’t go quite right, but also it was an experience, and they learned from it.

Lenore: And a memory. A memory. What if instead you’d parked and run in and brought them two slices of pizza and they ate them in the back of the car while you drove home? That would be a day that you would never remember for the rest of your life. And instead, it’s the day that everybody came home with this giant pizza.

Sarah: It was really funny. But that was purely because I was trying to cut some corners myself. I wasn’t thinking, gee, let’s let them experience going into a store on their own.

Lenore: Right, right, right. I mean, that’s the beauty of being a human. Not every—you know, you’re not a servant. And everybody’s better off if—

My friend once explained this to me, and then, of course, I’ve taken it as my own mantra as if I came up with it, but Chris Byrne told me that in the olden days there were three worlds, right? There’s the kid world, which is the riding their bikes and eating candy and chasing squirrels, whatever. And then there’s the adult world, which is boring. I remembered from when my parents were at the table, it’s like they’re discussing politics, they’re discussing who’s having an operation. It felt like you get to 50 and all it is is operations and politics. And then there’s family world when you are together, you know, at family dinner or on a vacation or church or synagogue or whatever.

But now we mash them all together. And really, everybody likes it more when the kids—it’s like the kid table is more fun than the kids being at the adult table at Thanksgiving, right? So you separate them. It’s not that they’re never gonna spend time with grandma, it’s that they’re joking and becoming dearly close with their cousins, and you’re finding out who’s having an operation. So everybody wins.

Sarah: That’s right. That’s right.

Where’s—the two more quick questions before I let you go. Where’s the best place for folks to go and find out more about what you do? And we’ll put any links you mentioned in the show notes.

Lenore: Great. So go to letgrow.org. And if you’re a school or at a school, there’s a section for schools, and you can get our free programs there. If you’re a parent, we have the same programs just for home use, and those are all free. Everything’s free. So you could click on the parent thing if you want to change the law where you live so that you’re—you know what, don’t even go into the law. So just press schools or parents. And then we’re all over all the different social media.

Sarah: Wonderful. Okay. The last question is the question I ask all my guests, which is: if you could go back in time with a time machine, what advice would you give your younger parent self?

Lenore: Oh, my younger parent self. I think I gave myself the advice, which was let your son ride the subway alone, because that was the inciting incident that started Free-Range Kids, is that I let my nine-year-old ride the subway alone, and I wrote a newspaper column about it.

What I didn’t know then is that it would end up being a movement and my life’s work. But I would say, do it that weekend, because like a week later he was 10 and nobody would care. So hurry up. That’s great. You got five days left, Lenore. Get him on the subway.

Sarah: Thank you for doing that, because it’s been—it’s really an important countercultural voice that you have and that your organization has.

Lenore: Well, thank you, and thanks for having me. And I love the rat story, and I’m taking it as my own.

Sarah: Oh, good. Please do.

Lenore: Thanks!

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