If you’re exhausted, stretched too thin, and struggling with the stress of parenting, you’re not the only one. Many parents—especially mothers—find themselves running on empty, constantly trying to meet everyone’s needs while their own go unnoticed. Parenting stress can leave you feeling frustrated, drained, and even angry at your kids, whom you love so much.

 

In this episode, we’re unpacking why parenting can feel like too much and what we can do about it. We’ll explore the hidden pressures that push parents toward burnout, the unrealistic expectations we place on ourselves, and small shifts that can help you feel more supported, more present, and less overwhelmed by the daily stress of parenting.

 

Why does parenting feel so much harder than I expected?

Is it normal to feel resentful or emotionally drained from the stress of parenting?

Am I an angry parent? Is this just who I am?

How can I take care of myself when my kids need me all the time?

Why do I feel guilty when I set boundaries or ask for help?

What small, doable changes can I make to feel more balanced and present?

 

Why so many parents feel like they’re drowning—and why it’s not your fault

What’s really behind that constant exhaustion and frustration

Practical ways to lighten the load without adding more to your to-do list

How small mindset shifts can make parenting feel less overwhelming

How to recognize when parenting stress is turning you into an angry parent—and what to do about it

This isn’t about striving for perfection or forcing yourself to do more. It’s about finding simple, meaningful ways to care for yourself while still showing up for your family.

 

Here's the quiz mentioned in the episode: https://en.burnoutparental.com/suis-je-en-burnout

 

If you snap at your kids more often than you'd like...

If your anger seems to come out of nowhere, and you can't stop it...

If you've promised your kids you won't yell at them as much, but keep on doing it...

 

...the Taming Your Triggers workshop will help.

 

Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.

 

111: Parental Burn Out

130: Introduction to mindfulness and meditation with Diana Winston

122: Self-compassion for Parents

186: How to meet your needs with Mara Glatzel

SYPM 009: How to Set Boundaries in Parenting

 

193: You don't have to believe everything you think

121: How to support your perfectionist child

017: Don't bother trying to increase your child's self-esteem

 

02:21 Introduction of episode

04:05 Four key symptoms of parental burnout

05:00 Factors why the parents in some countries burnout more than others.

06:02 Kelly's burnout experience

08:55 Cortisol level on burnout parent

09:28 Important risk factors for burnout

11:30 The roles of societal expectations on parents

12:58 Personal strategies to address burnout

13:37 Mindfulness awareness

20:25 Self-compassion for parents

21:43 Parents debilitating perfectionism

24:20 Strategy for achieving self-compassion

25:54 Introduction on parental neediness

29:33 The common barrier to prioritize needs

31:31 Need that often get neglected

34:50 Difference between boundaries and limits

38:36 Why we default to limit so much

39:59 What happens when parents don't set boundaries

43:13 Reasons why parents feel overwhelmed

49:00 Ideas to bring out to life

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Emma 00:00

Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives, but we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a free infographic on the 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one, just head on over to yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe, and pretty soon you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro, so come and record one yourself at yourparentingmojo.com/recordtheintro.

Jen Lumanlan 00:46

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. A few months ago I asked listeners for feedback on what you appreciate about the show and what I could do to serve you better. A long-time listener who prefers to remain anonymous pointed out that I have a lot of episodes by now! Even though she’s been around the show for a while, she pointed out that when she starts listening to a new podcast she often feels overwhelmed by the back catalog of episodes and doesn’t know where to begin. Should she go back to the start? To the most recent? To some random episode that seems relevant to her? The listener suggested that I create a kind of map of episodes for new listeners, depending on their particular goals and what’s going on in their lives right now. I immediately saw the usefulness of the idea but it was hard to work it in to the schedule! In the early days of the podcast I used to worry that I would run out of ideas to explore but 230+ episodes later it hasn’t happened yet, and I don’t anticipate it happening anytime soon. And I already release so much content either every week or every other week, so it’s been hard to find a spot to start creating one of these - but finally I have a bit of a break in the schedule so here it is. If you’re feeling exhausted, and if it seems like you’re stretched too thin, or like parenting has become more draining than joyful, then this episode is for you. Maybe you’ve snapped at your child over something small and immediately felt guilty about it. Maybe you’re finding it harder to stay patient, to enjoy the little moments, or even to care about things that used to matter to you. You might feel exhausted and overwhelmed, and wonder: Is this just normal parenting stress, or is there something bigger going on?

Jen Lumanlan 02:21

In today’s episode, we’re going to take a closer look at what to do when you feel so exhausted and overwhelmed that it seems like you’re drowning. To do this, we’ll draw on several episodes that we’ve covered over the years. I’ll pull out the major ideas in each of those episodes and also direct you on where to find them, if you want to dive deeper. We’ll start by looking at parental burnout, and then at some tools that you can use to navigate situations where it seems like you’re drowning, whether or not you’re officially diagnosable with burnout. These include mindfulness, self-compassion, understanding your needs, and setting boundaries. So let’s begin with parental burnout - what it is, why it happens, and what you can do about it. We’ll explore how to recognize burnout in yourself, why so many parents are struggling with it, and the role that unrealistic societal expectations play in making it worse.

The overall idea that I want to leave you with in this episode is that feeling overwhelmed, or exhausted, or burnt out does not mean you are not a bad parent. You’re a human being with limits, and today, we’re going to explore how to honor those limits while still showing up for your children in a way that feels sustainable and fulfilling for you. So as we dig in on parental burnout, we’re going to draw on episode 111 on the topic of parental burnout where listener Kelly and I co-interviewed Dr. Moira Mikolajczak, who is one of the world’s leading researchers on the topic. Parental burnout as a state of extreme physical, mental, and emotional exhaustion caused by the chronic stress of parenting. It goes beyond everyday tiredness—parents experiencing burnout feel completely drained, like they have nothing left to give. Even basic parenting tasks, like preparing meals or responding to their child’s needs, can feel overwhelming.

Jen Lumanlan 04:05

There are four key symptoms of parental burnout. The first is deep exhaustion, where parents feel constantly fatigued, even after rest. The second is emotional distancing, where they withdraw from their children, not because they don’t love them, but because you don’t have the energy to engage. The third symptom is loss of joy in parenting—the things you once enjoyed, like playing or reading with your child, start to seem like burdens. And finally, there’s a painful contrast between the parent that you want to be and the parent that you’ve think you’ve become, often leading to intense guilt and shame. Parental burnout is not rare, but its prevalence varies widely depending on where you live. Research shows that in some countries, as many as 9% of parents experience burnout, while in others, it’s less than 1%. The biggest differences exist between Eurocentric countries—like the U.S., Canada, and much of Europe—versus non-Eurocentric countries in Africa and Asia. So why do parents in some places burnout more than others? One of the biggest factors is social support. In many non-Eurocentric cultures, parenting is more communal. Extended family members, neighbors, and even older children play an active role in raising younger children. Parents don’t carry the full weight of child-rearing alone, which helps prevent burnout. In contrast, parents in Eurocentric countries—especially mothers—often believe they have to do everything. They’re expected to work, to manage the household, to take care of their children’s emotional and cognitive development, and do it all without much outside help. And on top of that, we face intense social pressure to be perfect parents, which adds to the stress. The combination of high expectations and low support makes burnout much more common in Eurocentric cultures, where it seems like parents, and mothers particularly, are doing it all alone. Listener Kelly who co-interviewed Dr. Mikolajczak with me described her experience of what burnout was like, and I want to share that with you in her words:

Kelly 06:03

Yeah, so I suppose it has been growing for quite some time, maybe even up to 10 years in a lighter variance of it. I guess, for me, it was a combination of my characters, some health issues have been going through. Like I said, that the tough time the first year is my daughter really, really hadn’t opened and then some challenges that work. So it was really like a lot of things that were out of my control, but then combined with my response to them that just led to this burnout. And at most times, actually, I wasn’t aware of how much I was racing. And later my husband described it as if he was trying to stop a very heavy train and I just kept going and going and he couldn’t stop me. It was kind of weird because I just didn’t realize how I was doing. It was later when we talked about when I was a lot more calm. And he explained that to me when it dawned on me, I suppose. And it really hit me when I came back after holiday and went back to work and I felt quite okay at the start of the day. But when I came home, I was so shaken and stressed and I felt physically sick. And I just realized how much work was contributing to the story as well. And then finally, I had a breaking point. So just kind of when it already dawned that something was up. But then I had a breaking point about a month later when I was away for work. And I just had a blackout, total blackout. I was sitting on a wall there. I didn’t know what to do. I didn’t know where to go. I phoned my husband and he helped me to get to a train station and to find a train to come home and he came in the car halfway to pick me up. And then when I was in the car, I had more or less collapsed. I was crying for hours. I couldn’t do anything anymore. I was exhausted for the next few days. I was just in bed. I felt so sick as if I had a terrible flu. I was shocked because it was the day before I was quite well, lots of energy. And then suddenly, I couldn’t do anything anymore. And my body ache. I was crying, very emotional. It was, yeah, it was very weird to experience such a change in a short time.

Jen Lumanlan 07:59

Probably quite scary too I would think.

Kelly 08:01

Yes, yes. Although at that time, it was more – yeah, no I suppose it was scary. I feel like, I just let it come over me because I...

 

 

As parents, we deeply want to support our children, but when we ask, “What’s wrong?” and get silence or resistance in return, it can feel frustrating and confusing. Why won’t they just tell us what’s going on? Whether your child is too young to articulate their emotions, brushes off your questions, or reacts with defiance, you’re not alone.

 

In this episode of Your Parenting Mojo, we explore the real reasons children struggle to express their feelings and how we, as parents, might unintentionally make it harder for them to share. You’ll learn practical, connection-based strategies to shift these dynamics, helping your child feel safe enough to open up—without forcing the conversation.

The episode builds on the ideas in my book Parenting Beyond Power: How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your Family - and the World.

 

Why does my child shut down when I ask about their feelings?

How can I encourage my child to express emotions—even if they can't or don't speak?

Could how I talk to them make them less likely to share?

How should I respond when they say, “I don’t care” or “Stop talking like that”?

How can I build long-term trust so they confide in me more?

What common parenting habits discourage open communication without us realizing it?

What strategies can I use to make problem-solving conversations feel safe and collaborative?

 

8 key reasons why kids resist sharing their emotions.

How to recognize when your child wants to open up but doesn’t know how.

The hidden impact of parenting focused on getting the child to behave correctly—and how to shift toward emotional connection.

How to reframe conversations so your child knows you see, know, and love them for who they really are.

Actionable tools to help your child feel safe expressing their emotions.

 

Taming Your Triggers

If you see that your relationship with your child isn’t where you want it to be because:

you’re feeling triggered a lot by your kids’ behavior...

they’re not willing to share how they’re feeling with you because they’re afraid of your reaction...

they think you’ll just try to get THEM to change...

... then the Taming Your Triggers workshop will help you.

 

Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.

 

 

207: How not to be a permissive parent

209: How to get on the same page as your parenting partner

226: Where emotions come from (and why it matters) Part 1

227: Where emotions come from (and why it matters) Part 2

075: Should we Go Ahead and Heap Rewards On Our Kid?

 

01:25 Introduction of episode

02:17 How to problem solve with children who cannot verbally share their feelings

04:34 Children might resist sharing their feelings because we’re focused on changing their behavior

07:53 Children might not participate in the conversation because we judge them

11:51 Children might resist participating in conversation because we have already decided what the “correct” solution is in advance

13:30 We haven’t taken time to understand the child’s needs

16:43 The child might not tell how they feel because they don’t know how they feel

19:56 The child might not tell you what’s wrong because you’re asking them in the heat of the moment

 

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Adrian  00:03

Hi, I'm Adrian in suburban Chicagoland, and this is Your Parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child. From tooth brushing to sibling fighting to the endless resistance to whatever you ask, Jen will look across all the evidence from thousands of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not. That's less than one minute long that describes what's happening and email it to [email protected] and listen out for your episodes soon.

 

Jen Lumanlan  00:53

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. In this episode I want to address some of the most common challenges that parents have when they first start implementing the ideas they hear here on the podcast, specifically related to not being able to understand their children's feelings, because the kids won’t tell them what’s going on with them. Perhaps their child isn't old enough to speak yet, or doesn't speak much or at all for some reason. Their child might not respond when the parent asks how they're feeling, or they might say ‘stop talking to me with all that therapy speak,’ or “I don't caaaare!”

 

Jen Lumanlan  01:25

In this episode we will help you to understand the eight main reasons why your child can’t or won’t tell you how they’re feeling, and give you concrete actionable strategies to address each one of them.  This episode draws heavily on my book Parenting Beyond Power How To Use Connection And Collaboration To Transform Your Family And The World. It also goes beyond the little bit of information in the chapter on common problems parents have with problem solving conversations simply because the space available in the book was limited. Some of the ideas here are also a bit different from in the book because the book looks at challenges parents have with problem solving conversations more broadly.  Here I want to focus more tightly on why your child might not be willing to share their feelings with you – so focusing mostly on the beginning of the conversation, where many parent I talk with are getting stuck. So let’s get into it.

 

Jen Lumanlan  02:17

We'll begin at the beginning by looking at the youngest children first many parents discover my work before their children can speak in full sentences, and they wonder how on earth am I supposed to have a problem solving conversation with a young child who can only say a few words, never mind how they’re feeling. When I coach these parents one-on-one it's actually very easy for them to get a reasonable understanding of their children's feelings. When we expect a child to use their words to tell us their feelings they're not going to be able to do it when they're aged one or two.  But if we put ourselves in their shoes and try to understand how we would feel if we were in their position, most of the time we can actually understand that fairly easily. The tool I use with parents in my private coaching sessions is the same feelings list that's publicly available to you at your parentingmojo.com/feelings.  It's freely available to use, you can download a PDF to print and stick on your fridge, there are options to download in multiple languages and if you don't see your language represented and we'd like to translate the feelings list please do reach out to [email protected]. We would love to make that happen. We also have picture based version to print and share with your kids. So they can get used to using it. So once you have your feelings list, you might want to close your eyes for a minute or so and imagine yourself as your child. Imagine yourself in a small body being told what to do for a good chunk of the day, at home, and maybe in childcare or at preschool as well. You're pretty clear about what you want to do and how you want to do it but it's hard to find the words to explain that to people in a way that they can understand and also makes them want to help you. Now bring to mind the challenge that you're having with your child and try to frame that in a non judgmental way. So we aren't working on why my child is refusing to brush their teeth; we're working on why tooth brushing has been difficult recently. With that in mind, open your eyes and look at the feelings list and see if you can hold yourself in your child's perspective and imagine what it's like to be them in that situation, and think about and write down the feelings that come to your mind. The vast majority of parents I work with are pretty capable of putting themselves in their child's shoes and understanding their child's feelings when they put their mind to it. This means that the child not being able to verbally communicate their feelings doesn't have to be a barrier to using problem solving techniques.

 

Jen Lumanlan  04:34

The second reason why children might resist sharing their feelings is because we are focused on trying to change the child's behavior, or we've done this in the past, even if this isn't our explicit intention this time around. So if you think about a time when somebody has come to you and has tried to change your behavior- whether it was a parent when you were young, a spouse more recently, or even a boss, you might remember some of the feelings that popped up when that happened - especially if you thought the way you were doing the activity was actually objectively the better way. Most of us resist having our behavior changed. I resisted having a child for several years for not much more of a reason than my mother-in-law wanted me to have a child!  When we approach a challenge we're having with our child from the perspective of wanting their behavior to change we can expect before the conversation even begins that they're going to resist, and the best way a child has to resist is to refuse to participate in the process. We can have a pretty good idea that we are going into the conversation with a goal to change the child's behavior when our statement of the problem contains the word “you.”  So “can we talk about why you won't get dressed in the morning,”  “Can we talk about why you keep yelling at me,” and “Can we talk about how to get you to stop hitting your sibling” are all great examples of a parent focusing on changing a child's behavior. Seeing a behavior that we want to change might be a reason why we want to have a problem solving conversation with our child, but if we express it to our child in that way they're going to resist.   It is possible to form a neutral observation using the word ‘you’ but when you’re just learning how to start making these observations, I’d recommend avoiding that construction for now. I think one of the reasons we get sucked into thinking that their behavior has to change is because we’ve been doing things a certain way for a long time – sometimes we consciously chose to do them that way, but sometimes we just fell into them for no real reason and kept doing them that way.  Then we expect our children to do things the way we’ve always done them when they may have their own ideas about what would work better for them.  Then we get into a power struggle.  I explored this in an early episode which was an interview with Alfie Kohn, where I’d read an article on how to use rewards to get a child to comply with doing household chores like putting clothes in the hamper.  We can reward our children for putting their clothes in the hamper and they may do it while we’re rewarding them, although they may stop once the rewards stop.  But why weren’t they doing it in the first place?  When we reward them, we miss the opportunity to ask that question.  If they weren’t putting their clothes in the hamper because they had a need for ease, then how could we make this easier for them?  Could we put a hamper, or even just a laundry basket, in their room so they don’t have to go out to the bathroom?  We also miss the opportunity to ask why we want them to use the hamper in the first place – what need are we trying to meet? Most likely it’s needs related to ease, collaboration and teamwork (so I’m not the only person doing all the work in the house) and competence in parenting – so I can feel more confident that I’m raising a child who has skills to succeed in the future.  There are a hundred other ways I could get those needs met, and I would put money on being able to identify some ways my child could help out around the house that also met her needs. And then I wouldn’t have to bribe her to put her clothes in the hamper, and both of our needs would be met.

 

Jen Lumanlan  07:53

The third reason why children might not want to participate in a conversation is linked to the second, and it's that we judge their behavior. This can often come out in the format: “You always…” or “You never…”.  As I said in parenting beyond power it's pretty easy to see the effects of judging when we think about how it feels when other people do it to us. It might be something like: “You never unload the dishwasher” or “You’re always so emotional.”  Another word for a judgment is a criticism, and we learned in episode 209 on how to get on the same page as your parenting partner how criticism is the first of what doctors John and Julie Gottman call the four horsemen of the apocalypse. Criticism is almost invariably followed by one or more of the other three horsemen of the apocalypse which is when things get even worse.  The second horseman is defensiveness, which can come out in one of three forms: righteous indignation, counterattack, and whining. So when somebody else criticizes us for being too emotional righteous indignation would have us say: I'm not too emotional!” Counter attack would have us say: “at least I don't have the emotional life of a rock!” And the adult version of whining might sound something like: “OK fine, I'll make sure my emotions match your expectations in future.”  Because our children are people too, they tend to use these same tools. If we tell them their bedroom is messy, our judgment they say: “I like it that way!” or “Clean it yourself, then, if you care about it so much!” or “Why do I have to clean my room when my brother doesn’t clean his?” The third of the four horsemen is contempt, which the Gottmans define as treating others with disrespect mocking them with sarcasm and condescension, using hostile humor, name calling, mimicking, and body language such as eye rolling and sneering. We tend not to see this so much with younger children because we use our power over them to get them to stop if we do see it. But eventually our children learn that we actually don't have the power to control their bodies, which is why we see so much of this behavior come out in the teenage years. The fourth of the four horsemen is stonewalling, which is the stereotypical male response to a female criticism: simply shutting down. Stonewalling was my preferred defense mechanism for many years, developed during my teens when my father would lecture me for hours on end about my many failures. I wasn't permitted to answer back so I simply nodded and agreed as he talked himself through his lecture, but mentally I was somewhere else.  When our children mentally or emotionally check out by being physically with us in the room, but refusing to participate in the conversation, or if they physically walk away from us, we might check whether our framing or explanation of the problem could be perceived as critical. If it can we want to try to restate that from a neutral perspective, where we own the problem together. We talked with parent Diana in episode 207 on how not to be a permissive parent how a judgments damage our relationship with our child. Judgments can be incredibly useful in our heads, as they give us information about our needs that are not being met. But when those judgments come out of our mouths unedited, they often hurt the person who is on the receiving end. Instead, we can make a translation in our heads to reframe the problem as one that we own together. When there's one specific behavior that seems challenging, it's OK to be specific. So you might reframe: “can we talk about why you won't get dressed in the morning?” to “I've noticed that we've had a hard time getting out the door in the morning at 8:30 recently. It seems as though getting dressed has been difficult. Can we talk about that?”  Where the child...

How to heal the anger in your relationship with your spouse

Parent Laurie was doing really well when she had two kids. She had been with her partner for a long time, she had just achieved her first managerial role at work, and things were going great - so they thought it would be a good time to add a third child.

 

Then: Pandemic. Two kids under three. Oldest child started school and had problems that were diagnosed as ADHD and Autism. Navigating all the appointments and calls from school took so much time that Laurie dropped down to part-time work, so her salary would no longer cover the cost of childcare. She quit her job and became a stay-at-home parent.

Then the anger and rage began. Laurie had always had anger throughout her whole life, and thought she knew how to handle it - but this rage was a different story. It felt like she wasn't in control, which is the complete opposite of how she wanted to show up as a parent and as a partner - so she felt deeply ashamed of it.

 

Her husband Jordan bore the brunt of it - for big issues and small. They had a mouse problem...and one day he left Goldfish crackers out. Laurie was like the villainous octopus witch Ursula from The Little Mermaid who wanted to tear everything down - to tear HIM down.

Of course her kids heard all of this. Not long after his diagnosis, her oldest son had given a presentation to his class about his family, and he introduced Laurie by saying: "No matter what happens, my Mom is calm and unflappable and she can handle it." It was Laurie's parenting dream come true, since she didn't grow up in a calm house.

Laurie felt so ashamed that she wasn't the calm center of the family anymore, and that her kids were afraid of her.

Then she started to learn the sources of her triggered feelings from waaay back in that not-so-calm household. She also learned that getting her husband to change his behavior was not the answer - even though she very much wanted it to be the answer!

 

She started to heal from the hurts she's experienced, and has learned how to sit with her rage without making it her husband's fault. And from there, she's begun to feel the rage less often.

 

Now there are more 'magical' moments in their relationship, as they share silly texts like they used to before they had kids.

Laurie shares her story in this extraordinarily revealing interview. And at the end I coach her on a challenge she faced that very morning: she's now aware of the difference between feelings and fake feelings (that are really judgments in disguise). But even though she knows the difference she can't always stop herself from directing the fake feelings judgments at her husband - which had started a fight that day.

 

We talked through how to avoid the judgments next time - and how to repair effectively with her husband later that night. I also share a message Laurie sent me about how the repair went!

 

I hope you enjoy this inspiring conversation.

 

Ready to break free from the cycle of triggered reactions and conflict in your parenting journey?

If you want to:

😟 Be triggered less often by your child’s behavior,

😐 React from a place of compassion and empathy instead of anger and frustration,

😊 Respond to your child from a place that’s aligned with your values rather than reacting in the heat of the moment,

the Taming Your Triggers workshop will help you make this shift.

Join us to transform conflict into connection and reclaim peace in your parenting journey.

Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.

 

 

 

232: 10 game-changing parenting hacks – straight from master dog trainers

 

01:55 Laurie’s introduction

13:40 Laurie’s intentions when she joined the Taming Your Triggers workshop

23:17 The tools that Laurie put into practice and found helpful

34:32 The changes that Laurie has seen in her family

39:18 Importance of recognizing fake feelings and needs

45:25 Doing difficult behavior to receive connection

49:54 Seeing when you feel agitated in your body

54:26 Starting a non-judgmental observation

 

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Kelly  00:03

Hi. This is Kelly Peterson from Chicago, Illinois. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it into context for you as well, so you can decide whether and how to use this new information. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons Your Child Isn't Listening to you and what to do about each one, sign up at yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe. If you'd like to start a conversation with someone about this episode, or you know someone who would find it useful, please do forward it to them. Thank you so much.

 

Jen Lumanlan  00:56

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We are here today with a very special guest. We are here with parent Laurie, and we're going to talk a little bit about some changes she's been making over the last few months in her parenting and her relationship with her kids. And we're also going to do a bit of coaching as well, which I'm excited for too. So welcome Laurie. It's so great to have you here.

 

Laurie  01:17

Oh, I'm so excited. It's funny. I met once like incredibly excited to be with you, your work, actually having a conversation like this, you know, in daylight hours, not in the hash of midnight. You know, try to, and it's also very serious and heavy. So it's a very interesting contrast within and I'm trying to just hold it, hold it together.

 

Jen Lumanlan  01:37

Hold all of it at the same time. Well, thank you so much for sharing that with us. Yeah, it's, it's a little bit like that with me as well, right? Are we going to make sure that we cover things that listeners find interesting, and also, I know based on our previous interactions, you and I could just talk for hours. So yeah, so why don't you just start off by telling us a little bit about who you are? Where are you, who's in your family?

 

Laurie  01:55

Sure. So I live on the west coast of Canada in British Columbia, and I'm a mother of three sons. They are ages ten, seven and four and partnered. I have a husband, Jordan, and we've been married. It's in that gray area where you think it's 15 years, but it might be 18, it could even be 20, but been together very, very long time since my late 20s, and I started having kids later in life. So I had my first at 36 and my last at 42. I am currently 46 years old, and what's I want to say about my family? There was something I wanted to I wanted to mention for sure that I thought was relevant to the course, but I'll just leave it there. If you have enough.

 

Jen Lumanlan  02:42

Yeah, no  worries. And you're a stay at home parent, right? I remember when you introduced yourself, you said, that's a risky turn you didn't see coming.

 

Laurie  02:49

This was it okay? So, yeah, there was two things I wanted to mention. And one, so I've been kind of working my whole life, and four years ago we had our last child. It was rate in the pandemic, the beginning of the pandemic. And there was some twists and turns I really did not see coming. I didn't realize how exponentially the workload would increase with three. I know that sounds very idealistic and novel, but I was like, Oh, two, it's good. It's good. And then three, I was like, we have 16 kids now. Like, how does anybody do this? Then my eldest was being assessed for certain things, certain struggles were coming up, and we were very curious, but trying to be very open about it. And the school was very generous, but really insisted on a psycho educational assessment. Led to a few other things, and he was diagnosed with autism and about four other comorbidities, almost just like dominoes, like do, do, do, do so autism, ADHD, Developmental Coordination Disorder, some sensory processing issues and some learning challenges, and that change like, then things really, really opened up. And it wasn't just like, worried with the school system of like, Oh, we got some sniffles, or everybody in our family sick. Again, it was, Oh, wow. Like, this is a whole new just world, and learning about terms like IEP, Individualized Education Plan and advocating and trying to teach my son to advocate. And really well meant, but limited resources within the public education system, and there's so many, it just everything went and it felt like a part time job or a full time job, just trying to learn of that. And then lastly on that, what would end up happening is my job. They were wonderful. They tried to say, like, look, let's do a jobshare with you. They were going to give me two days a week and then three days a week, type thing, with another person that was covering my leave, who is also wonderful. But it turned out even that the way I would get called into the school for different meetings and this and that, and this specialist and that specialist and and. Still trying to have a one year old, a two year old, and my person in kindergarten. And then lastly, it ended up to get into the financial I don't recovering all the heavy stuff, the money stuff, but it would be like I would be paying $25 a month to have my kids in care. So it ended up being the salary I would have made, wouldn't have even covered the childcare. And I was devastated. I was gutted because I, just before I had actually got my first, like, managerial role, so I've been working, and I was like, like, I'm I'm doing it, you know, my Mary Tyler Moore hat, like, I'm doing it, and I know doing it. And I kids amazing. And it just kind of slowly these things started happening. I was like, oh, and my hat's kind of like, you know, trampled on the ground somewhere right now. Like, I was like, well, that part has to just go here for now. And we just couldn't afford to actually have me work, which I know sounds bizarre, and now we're at the place where we can't afford for me not to be working. So now I'm trying to claw my back, way back into professional career. Well, still dealing with the with the staff and my youngest will go to kindergarten next year. So this very long answer, but I did not see any of that coming. I worked through all my other kids, young person hoods, in a lot of ways. And then this one, I was like, oh, okay, here we are.

 

Jen Lumanlan  06:25

Yeah so you've talked through a lot of changes happening, yes, and I am just imagining all of the things in all of that, right, all of your kids diagnoses, and the amount of time that it's going to take to navigate the school system and all of the appointments and everything else and not working anymore, right as you are starting to meet your need for competence in your work in a way that is really meaningful to you. And I'm wondering if maybe any of this is linked to triggered feelings, perhaps, did they start coming out a little bit more than they had?

 

Laurie  06:57

Oh my gosh. I Oh, Jen, it is so lovely to talk to you. I wish we could be have this three day conversation marathon. I is so I feel seen in a way. I'm almost like tearing up. I haven't been able to say The Mary Tyler Moore, you know, hat and then down on the ground, because it's almost you don't I don't want to make anybody feel bad in my family. Of what of some of the things that was a necessity to kind of keep our stuff going. I felt I've had anger my whole life. I felt anger, and I know how to handle it, but this rage was a different story. Like this felt like I wasn't in control, and it is really the antithesis of how I want to show up as a parent or person or partner in any way, and so, and I'm deeply ashamed of it. So this is the heavy part where I'm really excited to talk to you, but I'm also like, Oh, please don't make me talk about this. I don't want to talk about this at all. This is, like, kind of humiliating, but also so important to talk about. So what would happen is it wouldn't be my children that would set me off so much I had a lot of kind of space for them, although there was moments for sure, but it was my partner, and little things became things that I was ready to burn it all down like, and I met like I was ready to be like the rage would come up so quick, and it would be something as simple as he left all the goldfish crackers out in the cupboard, and at that time, we were dealing with a mouse problem. And part of me was like, Are you kidding me? Like I was ready, like the monster within my inner Ursula with all eight tentacles wanted to come out and tear everything down, and it was very ugly, very painful, and I had to just, I didn't even know how to hold it, like the rage was so this, and the other thing was, is I'm right in perio menopause, and I think that's kind of a magical, amazing Time. It's also incredibly challenging, but I think my inner anything I've pushed down, it's coming, like it's coming for me and it's going to come out now, this is the time of my life where, and it just so coincides, because I had kids later that it's like I'm also going to have young kids during this transition and a marriage that we've kind of defaulted and, oh my God, what did I do to my career, you know? And if something happened to my partner, I don't, I can't even, I'm not even working to provide for my family. So all these things that I said, Oh, I'll never, you know, I'll never be all those. And it's like, Oh no, I am all of those, check, check, check, at the same time. But it was the rage that frightened me. And really I thought, Oh, I've I've got to do something like this isn't and what it was, it wasn't even that I was conscientious of the harm and effect that I was having on my partner. Oh, this is gonna make me cry. But it was just seeing my kids being afraid. Right? So long story. When my son was diagnosed with autism, about six months later, he gave a presentation to his grade three class about having autism. It was so beautiful and touching and incredible and just the way kids are. It was so in the moment and present, and the kids were really cool with each other, and he had to introduce us, and he introduced his status, like, really cool. His Job's really cool. Look at my dad's so cool. And I almost swallowed my tongue when it was his time to introduce me, because at that point, I wasn't working, and he was just introducing people, their job is who they are,...

Children’s threats: What they mean and how to respond

 

Said to a sibling: “If you don’t come and sit down, I'll take your toy.” 

 

Has your child made threats like this (or worse ones) when things don't go their way?

 

Whether it’s yelling, “I’ll never be your friend again!” or threatening to hurt you, hearing these words can stop you in your tracks.

 

Why do our kids say things like this? Where do they even get the idea to use threats, when we've never said anything like this to them and we don't think they've heard it from screen time either?

 

In this week's episode we'll dig deeply into these questions, and learn how to respond both in the moment the threat has happened - as well as what to do to reduce future threats.

You’ll hear:

A step-by-step strategy to deal with a real-life example - from the parent whose child said "If you don't lie down with me I will shatter your eyeballs!"

The phrases we use with our kids that might unintentionally encourage this kind of behavior

Specific, practical tools to use in the moment - and long before tensions escalate

 

Are you ready to turn these tough moments into opportunities for deeper connection?

 

Tune in to the episode today.

 

And what happens to you when your child threatens you?

 

Do you lose your mind?

 

Do you freak out that you might be raising a child who needs help to defuse violent tendencies, and then yell at them because their threats are SO INAPPROPRIATE?

 

Hopefully this episode reassures you that that isn't the case. But that may not eliminate your triggered feelings - because these don't always respond to logic.

 

Ready to break free from the cycle of triggered reactions and conflict in your parenting journey?

If you want to:

😟 Be triggered less often by your child’s behavior,

😐 React from a place of compassion and empathy instead of anger and frustration,

😊 Respond to your child from a place that’s aligned with your values rather than reacting in the heat of the moment,

the Taming Your Triggers workshop will help you make this shift.

Join us to transform conflict into connection and reclaim peace in your parenting journey.

Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.

 

 

SYPM 013: Triggered all the time to emotional safety

232: 10 game-changing parenting hacks – straight from master dog trainers

 

03:03 Introduction of Reddit post about a child threatening his parent

19:27 The child listens but doesn’t do what they’re told

36:21 Recognizing the signals

42:42 Recognize the background stress

 

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 Adrian  00:03

Adrian, Hi, I'm Adrien in suburban Chicagoland, and this is Your Parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child. From tooth brushing to sibling fighting to the endless resistance to whatever you ask, Jen will look across all the evidence from thousands of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not. That's less than one minute long that describes what's happening and email it to [email protected] and listen out for your episodes soon.

 

Jen Lumanlan  00:53

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. If you don't give me a lollipop, I won't be your friend anymore. Maybe said to a sibling. If you don't come and sit down next to me, I'll take your toy, perhaps, said to you. If you don't give me candy before dinner, I'll hit you. Has your child ever threatened you for doing exactly these things or something like them, or maybe even they've threatened something worse? Do they threaten you for taking away things that they want, like sugar or screens, or for refusing to do something that they want you to do. If so, you are not alone. And if you have no idea what to do about this behavior, you're also not alone. When I asked my listeners in the free Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group about whether their children ever threaten them, a bunch of people raised their hands and said, yep, this happens at our house all the time. It also seemed as though parents felt very conflicted about how to address the topic, especially when they haven't modeled this kind of language at home. In this episode, I'll help you to understand where these threats come from and how to handle them in a way that feels good to you and also reduces the number of times your child says these kinds of things to you. I should say at the outset that the strategies I'm going to talk about in this episode are for children under the age of about 10 who might be threatening harm, but you either know they won't carry it out, or they don't have the access or ability to actually carry it out. Your preschooler might be able to follow through on a hit, and it might hurt, but it likely won't cause serious damage. They may even cause more serious damage accidentally. I've heard of parents who get a broken nose when they are behind their child and their child arches their back and the child's head hits the parent’s nose. These kinds of things can be hard to deal with, but they're a relatively expected part of childhood and are covered in this episode. If your child is making credible threats of serious physical harm against you and you believe they might carry it out, then this is beyond the scope of this episode, and I'd suggest that your first call be to the National Domestic Violence Hotline. I'll put a link to their website in the show notes for this episode. I also want to point out we're going to mention violence in this episode, including sexual violence. So if this would be difficult for you today, then I'd invite you to come back to this episode on a day when you feel more resourced. I actually found an old Reddit post that I want to think through as an example of how to understand what's happening in a situation where a child is threatening us. This post is actually the third result on a search for what should I do when my preschooler threatens me, and I'm going to use it for our analysis, because it has enough detail to understand a fair bit about the dynamic between the parent and child. You might want to listen carefully as I read the post and see if you can figure out what's happening before I explain what I see. The subject is 3.5 year old giving violent threats. And here's the rest of the post, I have a very intelligent, strong willed little guy that has an opinion about dang near everything, and assumed he has just as much, if not more, authority than any given adult. Sounds on par for a three-year-old, right? His language skills have always been impressive, and he seems to remember complicated words and phrases used months ago, and will recall them at just the appropriate time. He also likes to be rocked before bed every night. Whether it's because he cherishes the snuggles or the chance to stay awake for a few minutes longer is yet to be determined. I assume a little of both. But the other night, he was being rude and obstinate, and I warned him that he needed to work on showing me he could be a better listener and be respectful, or he could continue doing what he was doing, and I would leave him to put himself to bed. He didn't take the path I'd hoped for naturally, and I knew I needed to follow through to show him I was serious. So I said, okay, good night. I love you, and stood up to leave. Instantly, he screamed a guttural no, and began the full on crying fit and yelled, you're not listening to my words. I will rip you to shreds. And while I was trying to figure out what the actual heck, they didn't actually say heck, but what the actual heck was coming out of his mouth, he then proceeded to tell the cat to bite my knee off. I have bad knees. And as a cherry on top, he said, I will shatter your eyeballs. First of all, I'm not sure where he's getting these phrases. They seem kind of specific, and I'm trying to think if we watched any movies recently that would have said such a thing. But like I said, his memory is ridiculous, and he could be pulling something out of his pocket he's been holding onto for months. It's not the first time I've heard him say violent things, but usually he's talking to his toys, and the threats are a bit more generic, I guess. Second of all, and this is the heart of the matter, is this typical, or is my kid letting me know he's got a violent side we need to treat? TLDR, I'm trying real hard to not be raising a future serial killer. Okay, so we're going to take a close look at what's happening in the situation, and we'll start with the parents perspective. I'm going to refer to this parent as Luna, as that is part of their username, and I'm going to assume, for the sake of this discussion, that Luna identifies as female. Since I've talked about this, a good deal with female identifying parents, and they seem to have an especially hard time with this behavior. Most of the content in this episode is applicable to parents of any gender. Let's look at the issues related to mothers first. I think there are two important reasons why female socialized parents have a hard time with threats from children. Firstly, we're socialized to take care of everybody else's needs before our own, and if we have a child who's so dysregulated they're threatening us with something between not being our friend anymore and hitting us, then clearly there is something wrong, and it's probably something that we are doing wrong. If we were conditioned to believe that when everybody else around us feels calm and happy and content, then we have done a good job. Anyone expressing discontent seems like a failure, and it must be our failure. This can be especially pronounced if our parents had a lot of disagreements when we were young, and our role in the family was to moderate their fights. In the Sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode number 13, from 2021 which was called Triggered all the time to emotional safety, Parent Crystal shared how her parents would get into a huge fight and she would disappear into the kitchen to make tea for everybody to try and placate them. Her parents were supposed to be the ones who helped Crystal to feel safe, but instead, Crystal tried to soothe herself by getting them to stop arguing, because their arguing felt so unsafe to her. When we've grown up in this kind of environment, a child's dysregulation over something like screen time or candy can remind us of how unsafe we felt with our parents in childhood, which triggers us so we may then say things to our child that we don't mean, and then we go into a guilt and shame spiral because we know we didn't want to speak to our child in that way. We might even yell at them, but in that moment, we couldn't stop ourselves, maybe we even threaten our child. And of course, then we feel terrible about it, because it's just adding fuel to the fire and shows our child that threats are appropriate tools to use. The other way that women seem to experience this kind of behavior as more difficult than dads do is because mothers are judged a lot more by their children's behavior. What a child eats or doesn't eat, how they're dressed, whether they play nicely with other children or use tools like threatening violence, reflects on our ability as a mother. Our culture spends a lot of time and energy telling us that our value as human beings is equivalent to our value as mothers. So when our children use this kind of threatening language, it's easy to see how our value, both as mothers and as humans beings, seems threatened.

 

Jen Lumanlan  08:02

A lot of parents feel concerned about where this kind of language comes from, and you heard that from Luna as well. In some cases, the path is relatively easy to follow. If we're threatening our child on a regular basis, we can see how they might use this kind of language with us. Even if our threats are delivered in a calm way, like if you don't brush your teeth now we won't read stories tonight, we have to acknowledge these really are threats. Our child may be feeling much more dysregulated when they speak to us, which makes their words come out with much more force and passion, but the language is the same as we've been using with them. It's not uncommon for parents to describe a threat their child has made and say, well, I've never used language like that with them, when actually we may not have used that specific threat. We have modeled the process many times. We just call it logical consequences, as if there was something logical about the threat. I often find it really puts things that we say to our children into perspective when we hear another adult saying them to us, or when our child said something to us. I remember when Carys was about three, reading in a popular parenting book that children get tired of hearing us repeat our requests over and over again, and so we should use a single word if we restate our request. So if we ask our child to put their shoes away, and we look back five minutes later and they haven't done it yet, instead of saying I asked you to put your shoes away or why haven't you put your shoes away yet, we should just say shoes. One day, not long after I started using that tool, Carys and I were sitting on the sofa in the morning, and I was working, I think she may have been doing some kind of screen time, and she asked me to get some blueberries for her breakfast. And I said, Yeah, I'll do it next time I get up. 10 minutes goes by and I hadn't gotten up, and I'd also forgotten about the blueberries. She looked over at me and she said, blueberries. I was totally shocked at first and then kind of amused. I certainly did not like being spoken to in that way, and that was how I learned to try to put things we say to our children through a filter of what it would feel like to say or receive the thing I'm about to say from another adult. So when we say something like if you don't brush your teeth, we won't read stories. We are training them to use threats, even if that wasn't our intention. Our child may also have heard their parents threaten each other and understand that a threat is a way of using power over another person. In a moment when they think they don't have very much power and they want to have something or make you do something, we can see how using a threat can seem like an appropriate choice when the child has heard other people using them for this effect. Children might also pick up this kind of language from media like TV, YouTube, video games, or from the playground. While I think it can be helpful to reduce the number of threats we're making towards our child and toward our parenting partner when our child's around, I don't think it's super helpful to spend a whole bunch of time worrying about where they might have heard this outside of these relationships. We live in a culture that says violence is not okay, and then practices violence on a routine basis. In his excellent book and talk, which I have quoted from before, indigenous Australian author Tyson Yunkaporta says that “Creation started with a big bang, not a big hug. Violence is part of the pattern. The damage of violence is minimized when it is distributed throughout a system, rather than centralized into the hands of a few powerful people and their minions. If you live a life without violence, you are living an illusion, outsourcing your conflict to unseen powers and detonating it in areas beyond your living space. Most of the southern hemisphere is receiving that outsourced violence to supply what you need for the clean, technological, peaceful spheres of your existence.” In every newspaper on every day around the world, acts of violence are described awful violence that humans commit against each other. The countries that many listeners of this podcast live in, try to keep their hands out of direct fighting, but the violence is still there, even if we don't see it every day. So where does this come from? When parents have been telling kids not to be violent for decades, how do we end up with 20% of surveyed female college students reporting they've been raped during college, and over half of women and almost a third of men have experienced sexual violence, including physical contact, during their lifetimes. How can we spend so much time and energy telling people not to be violent and yet still be surrounded by so much violence? I think we can understand quite a bit about this from the Reddit post. So let's return to the end of the post so we can figure out what was happening and what are the points at which things might have gone differently along the way. I see five of these potential turning points. So we're going to start at the fifth and work our way backward. And I'm doing it this way because Luna posted about wanting to know what to do about their child's behavior, which is usually the problem that parents come to me with as well. The fifth turning point was obviously the biggest one, and it happened when the parent said, okay, good night. I love you, and stood up to leave so the child can put himself to bed. The child responds with a loud no and a full on crying fit and the threat of physical harm to the parent. When I see posts like this in online communities, it's fairly common for the parent to say something like it just goes from zero to 60 immediately. And it sort of seems like that in this example, even though Luna doesn't use those precise words. Luna says a calm good night, and the child immediately responds with the over the top, loud wailing and threats. And it seems like getting...

Recently, in Part 1 of this two-part mini-series, we began looking at a question from listener Melissa: 

That episode looked at the academic research on the effectiveness of time-outs, what else might account for the research that finds them ‘effective,’ and whether time-outs might harm children even if the research says they don’t.

Today’s episode builds on Part 1 by exploring why time outs often fail to address misbehavior effectively - and may harm parent-child relationships.

Key points include:

We often don’t understand the distinction between misbehavior and emotional distress: Researchers agree that we should use time-outs when children misbehave, but not when they’re emotionally distressed.  But what if we aren’t as good at telling the difference between those two states as we think we are?

Understanding why children do things we tell them not to do: We look specifically at what Melissa’s 3 ½-year-old son is doing - things like poking her face, throwing a toy when she’s told him not to, and dropping food on the floor during dinner, as well as pulling his sister’s hair, and hitting/kicking her.

How alternatives to time out are even more effective: Even in controlled lab settings, compliance after time-outs often doesn’t exceed 60%.  We’ll meet parent Kendra, whose child had an Oppositional Defiant Disorder diagnosis that she no longer believes is true now she’s using the tools we discuss in this episode.

Drawing on research and these real-life stories, this episode offers actionable insights for parents who want effective alternatives to time-outs.

Whether you’re dealing with boundary-testing toddlers or older children’s challenging behaviors, this episode provides tools to help you deal with your child’s misbehavior by creating empathy and trust, rather than disconnection and resentment.

 

Love what you’re learning? Support the show and help us keep delivering insightful episodes like this one!

👉  Click here: https://learn.yourparentingmojo.com/donate

Ready to test your parenting instincts? Take our free quiz to see how these strategies could work for you! 

If you see that your relationship with your child isn’t where you want it to be because you:

Speak to them in a tone or using words that you would never let other people use with your child…

Are rougher with their bodies than you know you should be when you feel frustrated…

Feel guilt and/or shame about how they’re experiencing your words and actions, even though your intentions are never to hurt them…

…the Taming Your Triggers workshop will help you.

Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.

 

Episode 227: Where emotions come from (and why it matters) Part 2

Episode 226: Where emotions come from (and why it matters) Part 1

Episode 213: How to stop using power over your child (and still get things done)

Episode 207: How to not be a permissive parent

 

01:52 Review of previous episode on timeouts

05:41 Understanding emotional distress and misbehavior

15:51 Addressing misbehavior without timeouts

19:30 The role of emotion regulation in parenting

36:02 Alternatives to timeouts

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Emma 00:00

Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives, but we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a free infographic on the 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one, just head on over to yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe, and pretty soon you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro, so come and record one yourself at yourparentingmojo.com/recordtheintro.

Jen Lumanlan 00:46

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today we have the second of our two-part series on timeouts, which was inspired by a question from listener Melissa. Here's Melissa's question again, just to refresh your memory.

Melissa 00:58

Hi, Jen. I have a question about timeouts. So my understanding is that timeouts are not great because timeouts are punitive and they're socially isolating, and they're often used when a child is dysregulated and the child actually needs connection and understanding. But then I read a blog post by Dan Siegel, who authored the whole brain child, and he alludes that there may actually be a potentially appropriate use of time outs when used as part of an intentional parenting strategy. So I'm a little confused. I'd like to know if there is such a thing as a good and appropriate use of time out, especially for things like misbehavior, rather than in response to emotions or tantrums, and is there a way of using a timeout that is effective? It might actually be an appropriate strategy in the respectful parents toolbox. Thank you so much.

Jen Lumanlan 01:50

In the first episode of this two part series, we looked at the research on the effectiveness of timeout and saw that timeout can be effective at changing children's behavior in a lab environment, particularly, but that parents training programs to use it in the real world are always linked to broader parenting interventions to make parent-child interactions more positive. Most of the research on time out is done with children who have pretty severe behavioral challenges and whose parents are likely struggling with a child's behavior. We saw that while the research does show that time out can create more compliance in children, that it does this by withholding parents love and affection for a period of time.

Parenting can be really hard, but it doesn't have to be this hard. If you've seen all the memes and quotes on Instagram and you know how you want to parent, but it all falls apart in the difficult moments. The Taming your triggers workshop will help. You'll learn why you have these big emotional reactions to your child's behavior, how to heal from the hurt that's causing it, and how to be with your child in a way that's aligned with your values, even when they're doing things that drive you up the wall. Enrollment for my 10-week Taming Your Triggers program opens on Sunday, February 9. If you've been thinking about this workshop, then now is the time, because you get all the amazing support you normally get for the turning-back-time price of just $147. Go to yourparentingmojo.com/tamingyourtriggers to sign up for the waitlist so we can let you know, as soon as enrollments open, and if you want to get a taster of what the workshop is like before it opens, sign up for a free masterclass on Why You're So Angry With Your Child's Age Appropriate Behavior And What To Do About It. You can watch the pre-recorded masterclass whenever it's convenient for you, and then join me for Q and A and live coaching on Thursday, February 6, from 10 to 11:30 am Pacific. Sign up for that at your parentingmojo.com./triggersmasterclass. Unless you've been trained in administering time out by a clinician, you're probably not doing it in the way that clinicians recommend, and they're pretty adamant that it has to be done in the way they recommend if you want to see the benefit. We also looked at whether children might be harmed by the use of time out, and found that while there's no research indicating they are harmed, that the absence of evidence on this topic does not constitute an evidence of absence, as it were. It's possible that we aren't looking for the right kinds of harm, or looking for them in the right way. In this episode, we're going to take a closer look at the idea of using timeout specifically in response to our child's misbehavior, rather than to their emotional distress, which researchers agree we shouldn't do. We'll end by considering, is timeout ever an appropriate tool in a respectful parent's toolbox? And if not, what kinds of tools are we going to use instead? A very clearly written and helpful paper by Dr. Alina Morawska at the University of Queensland, who has apparently been recognized as Australia's top scholar in Family Studies, says that, “It is important to differentiate discipline situations from those which are either emotionally upsetting for the child or ones that activate the attachment system. Attachment has been conceptualized in terms of self-regulation, where attachment behaviors represent strategies for maximizing proximity to the caretaker, for facilitating comforting and as a way to regulate distress. Attachment behaviors are not the same as misbehavior, and the parent needs to respond differently to these. Time Out is used for child behaviors which are inappropriate and when the child has not complied with the parental instruction.” This intersection between the hurt a child experiences and when a timeout is appropriate to use is at the heart of Melissa's second question on whether we should use time out in response to misbehavior. The broader literature is an agreement with Dr Morawska in that time out should not be used in times of emotional distress, but this relies on the parent accurately being able to identify emotional distress. In our culture, we tend to accept sad crying as an indicator of emotional distress, but not angry crying. As they try to explain precisely for whom time out is appropriate and inappropriate, Doctors Lieneman and McNeil describe a young toddler who takes a candy bar in the checkout aisle at a grocery store. Mom takes the candy bar out of the child's hands and puts it back. The child has tantrum, which they say is understandable because maybe the child doesn't understand why the parent isn't allowing the candy. They then substitute a seven year old into the same situation who engages in a “defiant tantrum despite having adequate cognitive and communication abilities”. So ultimately, what they're saying is that if the parent firstly understands the source of the behavior and secondly judges that behavior to be reasonable, then time out isn't appropriate. So because we know that a one year old can't fully comprehend the reason for our no, we understand the source of their crying and we excuse it, or if we think the source of their crying is reasonable, we won't punish them for it, like if a parent is gone for an extended period of time and the child misses them, a timeout would be clearly inappropriate in this case. Here, I want to link in the ideas from Episode 226, and 227, on where emotions come from and why it matters with Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett. In those episodes, we learned that we really aren't very good at understanding what other people are thinking and feeling. Autistic people have a reputation for not being able to infer people's thoughts and feelings from their facial expressions, and while neurotypical people tend to think they're much better at doing this than autistic people are, the evidence shows otherwise. We also tend to be much more understanding of people's situations when we have more context about them. I demonstrated that in episode 207 on how to not be a permissive parent with listener Diana. As we explored the reasons why her child is using what Diana perceives to be a rude tone. Okay? So then, if I can translate that, what I'm hearing you say is that the percentage of time when she's actually, genuinely, really dysregulated is relatively small, and that more of the time it seems as though she is speaking to you in this way because she's making a choice.

Diana 08:00

It's been a successful strategy for her so far in life.

Jen Lumanlan 08:02

Okay, okay,all right, so let's, let's go into that piece, right? And so I want to play a little a game to try and illustrate some of this, right? So if I was to say to you, you know, Diana, I think you're just wrong about this, right? I do. I just think you're wrong. You're not saying this. Clearly, you don't know what you're talking about. And if you've, if you actually listen to the more recent episodes of the podcast, you would see that right, that there are different ways of interacting that would be more beneficial. So how would you describe the way I just spoke to you?

Diana 08:30

Dismissive.

Jen Lumanlan 08:31

Sure, yes, disrespectful. Maybe, sure, yes, yeah. Okay, sure. Okay. So what I want to do here is just sort of to illustrate the idea that the labels that we put on these things are not necessarily about the words that are spoken, right? If I was to come to this conversation and say, well, actually, you know, my husband just learned that he got laid off this morning, and I have no idea how we're going to pay our bills next month, and I'm feeling scared and distracted and overwhelmed, right? And so if I explained that to you, what would be different about how you perceived the outburst that I just had right then?

Diana 09:05

It gives the context of knowing that where you are coming from was not about me and our interaction at all, really. It was about something different.

Jen Lumanlan 09:15

Yeah, it was about something that happened in my life, right? That there isn't really anything to do with you. And so the hypothesis that I want to raise is that perhaps there's something similar going on for your daughter, and that we put this label of disrespect on it. Right? You initially used the word dismissive in the way that I spoke to you, and then I said disrespect, and you agree that, yes, it probably was disrespectful. And so you put that label on the way I spoke to you, because you perceived that a certain set of things was happening with me, and then once you knew different things were happening with me, all of a sudden, it didn't seem dismissive and disrespectful, right? Okay, so, yeah, I can see you're having a reaction to that. Let me pause and see what that reaction is.

Diana 09:55

Well, there is some sense in which the comment you specifically. Still was dismissive or disrespectful, I just can now understand why that wasn't not taken personally, right? Yeah, and so I think that that makes a lot of sense, and we should all look for those opportunities to realize, okay, this isn't actually about about this right now. This is about something else. And absolutely, some of the time, that's true in all of our communication with one another. It's not always about what it seems to be about. So I think it's definitely right to look for what you know, what is really going on in my own, in my daughter's mind, in my mind, what are each of our needs?

Jen Lumanlan 10:35

So let's put all of these pieces together. What if we are misreading our child's so called inappropriate behavior as willful disobedience, when actually it's distress? Let's look at some examples of this. You might remember a parent, Claire, whose parents used time out when Claire was young and later tried to ground her from sneaking out of the house for drinking and for smoking marijuana. We met her in the previous episode on Time out. Time Out is the temporary removal of positive reinforcement from the child's primary attachment figure and grounding is essentially the same thing once the child realizes they can't get their need to be seen and known and understood met by their parents, and instead try to get it from their friends. Claire told us how she felt isolated and that nobody understood or cared for her. Her behavior looked out of control, though, to an outsider, her drinking and her drugging must be reined in, in case she ends up dropping out of school and in jail. Time out or grounding, seems like a logical and appropriate response under Dr Morawska’s guidelines. But if we consider things from Claire's perspective, we see an attachment behavior. Claire is drinking and drugging to try to meet her need for belonging through interactions with her peers, because she had already learned through time outs and other interactions with her parents when she was younger that they couldn't really understand her. So if the drinking and drugging is attachment, behavior is time out and grounding, an appropriate parental response? Another example of inappropriate behavior comes from Dr Parsi, and it was Dr Morawska's mention of running away in the street that reminded me of this incident from our conversation in episode 213.

Dr. Houri Parsi 12:13

There was a day where Everest had been to the doctor with her dad, and the situation required some authoritative control that she was not happy with, which was that the nanny and and her dad took Orion and Everest, and the nanny held and had to restrain them for their vaccinations, their shots. She held the nanny held Orion and Travis, her father held her, and apparently she was very upset. She...

Time Outs: Helpful or harmful? Here’s what the research says

Pediatricians and researchers commonly recommend that parents use time outs when kids misbehave.  Time outs are promoted as an effective, evidence-based parenting strategy - although the real reason they’re so highly recommended is that they cause less damage to children than hitting.

But if we’re already using respectful/gentle parenting strategies most of the time, could there be any benefit to adding time outs when our children don’t comply with more gentle methods?

This episode delves into the research on:

Which children and families researchers think time outs are effective for (it’s not the same group of children who are usually study participants!);

The precise time out script that has been shown to be effective (and why it works);

Whether time outs harm children or not (this is one of the biggest controversies in the Gentle Parenting world)

If you’ve heard that time out is an effective strategy to gain children’s cooperation but weren’t sure whether it fits with your Gentle Parenting approach, this episode will help you to decide for yourself whether it’s a good fit for you and your family.

 

If you see that your relationship with your child isn’t where you want it to be because you:

Speak to them in a tone or using words that you would never let other people use with your child…

Are rougher with their bodies than you know you should be when you feel frustrated…

Feel guilt and/or shame about how they’re experiencing your words and actions, even though your intentions are never to hurt them…

…the Taming Your Triggers workshop will help you.

Sign up for the waitlist and we'll let you know once enrollment re-opens. Click the image below to learn more.

 

 

00:03 - Introduction

10:23 - Historical context and research on timeouts

17:26 - Critical analysis of timeout research

28:36 - Effective implementation of timeouts

33:59 - Challenges and limitations of timeouts

41:49 - Jen's personal experiences and emotional impact

49:29 - Alternative perspectives and values

57:39 - Conclusion and next steps

 

Kelly 00:03

Hi! This is Kelly Peterson from Chicago, Illinois. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it into context for you as well, so you can decide whether and how to use this new information if you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at your parenting mojo.com/subscribe if you'd like to start a conversation with someone about this episode, or you know someone who would find it useful, please do forward it to them. Thank you so much.

Jen Lumanlan 00:55

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Before we get started today, on our topic of time outs, I wanted to share a few words from a listener who's also been in both of the parenting and the learning memberships. She read my book parenting beyond power when it came out over a year ago, and I only just got around to asking her permission to share her thoughts on where the book ranks compared to the 100 or so other books that she's read. Here's Theresa.

Theresa 01:20

I've just finished your book. Amazing, really good. It was really like, yeah, and I'll describe it. I was like, I read it, and I was like, yay. It's like, all there in this really neat book. And I could just, like, refer back to the book, because it's like, you know, you managed to, like, funnel it all into a really and really easy to read. And really, what's the word, like reference. Like a reference. I want to just check that thing was that page, and you're like, Oh yeah, that was that bit. And, like, little scripts. It was, Yes, super helpful. I was gonna say, like, I've read probably I'm embarrassed about this or proud of this, but I've probably read over 100 parenting and yours rates up there like top five, top five.

Jen Lumanlan 02:04

Thanks so much for the kind words Theresa. Parenting beyond power is available in local bookstores, on Amazon and in audio book format, so you can even hear me read it to you. Now. Let's hear from listener, Melissa, who asked me a question about time outs. Here's Melissa, Hi, Jen,

Melissa 02:21

I have a question about timeouts. So my understanding is that timeouts are not great because timeouts are punitive and they're socially isolating, and they're often used when a child is dysregulated and the child actually needs connection and understanding. But then I read a blog post by Dan Siegel, who authored the whole brain child, and he alludes that there may actually be a potentially appropriate use of timeouts when used as part of an intentional parenting strategy. So I'm a little confused. I'd like to know if there is such a thing as a good and appropriate use of timeout, especially for things like misbehavior, rather than in response to emotions or tantrums, and is there a way of using a timeout that is effective? It might actually be an appropriate strategy in the respectful parents toolbox. Thank you so much.

Jen Lumanlan 03:12

What an interesting question to explore. So let's break down the elements of Melissa's question so we can address them one by one. In this episode, we'll look at whether there is a way of using timeout that is effective, which will become an entry to thinking about the origins of timeout and the research available on it. We'll also look at a related topic, which is whether timeout is harmful in any way to our kids. I tried really hard to fit everything into one episode, but I couldn't compress it enough to make it listenable. So in our next episode, we'll look at using timeout in incidences of misbehavior rather than in response to emotions or tantrums, as well as the last part of the question about whether timeout can ever be an appropriate strategy in the respectful parents toolbox. Before we dive into the first formal question, let's just make sure that we're on the same page about what timeout is, because it's described very specifically in the research. Researchers define time out as, "the contingent withholding of the opportunity to earn reinforcement. It consists of time away, usually for one to five minutes from rewarding stimuli, including attention from the parent as a consequence of some form of misbehavior, parents learn a simple routine that requires the child to have conned or settled before being allowed to rejoin the rewarding activity that they've been removed from." Sounds so simple, right? The name time out is a shortened form of the phrase time out from positive reinforcement, which is derived directly from B, F Skinner's behaviorist theory in the 1940s behaviorists investigated whether they could change pigeons and then chimpanzees behavior by removing access to food when they didn't do a task, and then they moved on to research on changing children's behavior. Essentially, what we're doing is we're seeing that children view their parents love and attention as a positive thing, which in behavior. Is called a reinforcement, and when we give time out from positive reinforcement, we're saying that the pigeon or chimp or child doesn't have an opportunity to access positive reinforcement for a period of time. The procedure was developed for children by Doctor Arthur Stotts in the 1950s who still very much believed in it when he was interviewed for an article in the Washington Post in 2019 he initially tested it on his own daughter, and now they have a family joke that her behavior was so bad that her dad had to invent time out. Longtime listeners to the podcast know that I do a lot of hedging here on the show. There's a lot of well, the studies say this, and if you squint at the data in just the right way, you can indeed see a statistically significant result in the case of time out, the research is surprisingly unequivocal. I'll quote from a 2019 paper by Dr Rachel Knight at the University of Michigan Medical School and her colleagues. She says, "time out has been studied for almost six decades, with applied research in children first reported in the 1960s overall, time out has been found to reduce many types of problematic behavior, such as non compliance and oppositionality, aggression, destruction of property and yelling, slash inappropriate vocalizations. Timeout is also a treatment component in several evidence based, manualized parent management training programs. In addition, timeout is effective in addressing problematic behavior across several ages, including infants, toddlers and preschoolers, school aged children and adolescents. Despite the voluminous research on timeouts effectiveness, the popular media frequently portrays time out as harmful, ineffective, or both." So this is a fairly typical statement that opens a modern paper on time out, and each of the main ideas in it is supported by a citation. So I went through them one by one. The citation for the assertion that time out has been studied for almost six decades with applied research in children first reported in the 1960s is a paper by Montrose Wolf, who was actually Dr starts as graduate assistant. Also other authors on this paper were Todd Risley and Hayden Mills, and this was published in 1963 if the name Todd Risley rings a bell, it's because he was also involved in the research on the so called 30 million word gap that we looked at in a couple of different episodes. This paper was more about the behaviorist ideas behind time out rather than timeout itself. Though, the researchers behavior space conditioning methods that timeout is related to and how the researchers used these to get a three and a half year old autistic boy named Dickey, who had a slew of other diagnoses as well, to stop having tantrums and start wearing his glasses so his vision wouldn't be lost. The authors would withheld Dickey's food until he complied with their demands, rather than making any attempt to understand why he was hurting himself during tantrums and why he wouldn't wear his glasses. From the researchers perspective, this case was successful, but we have no idea how Dickie turned out in the long term. As far as behaviorist researchers are concerned, once the behavior has changed, there is nothing more of interest to learn or do. We don't know if the self harming behavior ever returned or if Dickie developed other habits that his parents found difficult. After all, nothing's changed in the circumstances in their home. The only thing that changed was Dickey's behavior. If Dickie was self harming as a stress response, it seemed likely that he may have developed other stress response behaviors. Later on, researchers didn't help Dickie to learn any new tools for managing his stress response, only that when he expressed it, as he had been doing via tantrums in which he hurt himself, that so called privileges like food would be removed. Dr Knight went on to describe the different kinds of behaviors that could be addressed using time out. The first of these were non compliance and oppositionality, aggression and destruction of property, there were two studies cited in support of this claim. In the first one, researchers worked with four children and their parents in a lab setting, parents were told to give children instructions like, come here or give me the truck. Wait five seconds for the child to comply, give a verbal reasoning for a time out, put the child in timeout while ignoring them, return them to timeout if they tried to escape, and then release them from timeout after the timeout period, plus three seconds of quiet at the end, and then the parent would immediately ask the child to do the original task again. The procedure was moderately successful in changing behavior, although compliance hovered around 60% after the Time Out procedure, which is far from total. The second study looked at 71 kids with ADHD, 44% of whom also met Oppositional Defiant Disorder criteria. These children were subjected to a time out procedure that was so complicated, there was a flow chart in the paper to describe it that involved reward points and timeouts that were extended for bad behavior, and could be cut in half for good behavior. Five children refused to go or stay in the timeout area and exhibited high rates of negative behavior during time outs. These children were rewarded for the time they were not in time out. For example, one child earned a nickel for every 15 minutes he was not in time out and. He could spend the money at the end of the day in a vending machine, although this is not an accepted part of timeouts, as parents are currently trained on them. The authors concluded that time out significantly suppressed the rate of problematic target behaviors for children with ADHD in the context of this intensive program. But the abstract fails to mention that they also had to add rewards for the children who resisted time out.

Jen Lumanlan 10:23

The citation for yelling and inappropriate vocalizations is a study of two children aged 12 and 14 with an IQ of 52 and 55 and if it's been a while since you've worked with IQ scores, a score of 100 is considered, "normal," and so an IQ in the 50s comes with significant challenges. In this study, a teaching assistant started distributing food rewards randomly in class, an observer in the class decided when a child had misbehaved and would covertly signal to this teaching assistant to put an orange card on the child's desk and state name of the child you have misbehaved, you cannot receive treats for the next 10 minutes. Neither the teacher nor the student was ever told what behavior was incorrect. The Children's vocalizations decreased by 55% and 53% respectively. Although it is not clear whether it was only problematic vocalizations that decreased or whether the children just stopped participating in class. Time Out is indeed an important component of three evidence based programs that Dr Knight describes, including parent child interaction therapy, which we'll talk a bit more about in a bit. Dr knight goes on to state the different ages at which time out can be used. The study on infants was on four children aged 10 to 12 months, whose mothers were trained to start praising their children a lot and then give playpen time outs for what the researchers called Engaging in dangerous behavior, and this occurred between about a third and half of the observed intervals before the study began after treatment, this dangerous behavior only occurred in roughly 10% of observed intervals. This was not a short process, though, training sessions were conducted every four days, lasting between two and two and a half months, except for one mother and infant pair, where the mother's illness and work schedule resulted in training periods every 12 days over a period of 10 and a half months. And this is probably why time out is generally not recommended for children under the age of two. The study supporting using timeouts with toddlers and preschoolers is kind of an odd one, because it focuses on a rarely used form of timeout called deferred timeout. If the child refuses to stay in timeout, they're told they owe timeout to the parent before the parent will help them again with a task or by playing with the child. The effectiveness of timeouts in school these children is supported by studies we've already discussed. While the assertion that timeout is effective for adolescents draws on a 1988 study of timeouts conducted in three psychiatric hospitals for children and adolescents, some sort of facility that courts had sent children to, and a day treatment program. So as we return to Melissa's question on whether timeout is effective, we see that researchers who cite evidence in support of timeouts effectiveness often cite research that Canada doesn't really relate to our children if our children are not in an institutional setting. As a side note here, having done a number of episodes now, such as the two episodes on the Wonder weeks, as well as the episode on why authoritative is not the best parenting style, where researchers deliberately select white, middle class samples of normally developing children and...

Ever felt stuck figuring out how to respond to your child’s challenging behavior? What if the key lies in techniques used by master dog trainers?

In this episode, we explore how strategies designed to nurture trust and communication with dogs can revolutionize the way we parent. From co-regulation to building a culture of consent, you’ll learn actionable steps to create a harmonious home environment.

 

What you’ll learn:

Read dogs’ non-verbal cues to prevent bites - and how reading your child’s can prevent meltdowns.

Never yell at dogs—and what they do to get cooperation instead.

Calm anxious dogs—the same technique can reduce your child’s tantrums.

Build trust and gain consent with dogs—which can also strengthen your relationship with your child.

Stay calm under pressure—their strategies can help you navigate parenting stress as well.

 

This episode ties together the science of behavior with empathy to show that parenting doesn’t have to mean power struggles. By understanding your child’s needs (just like dog trainers learn to understand their dogs), you’ll build a connection that lasts a lifetime.

 

Love what you’re learning? Support the show and help us keep delivering insightful episodes like this one!

👉  Click here: https://learn.yourparentingmojo.com/donate

 

Why You’re So Angry with Your Child’s Age-Appropriate Behavior - and what to do about it (without stuffing down your feelings and pretending you aren’t angry!) masterclass is here!

Are you struggling to understand why your child’s behavior can spark so much frustration in you? You’re not alone—and we’re here to help.

Join us for a flipped classroom-style masterclass where you’ll uncover the reasons behind your triggers and learn tools to respond more calmly and intentionally to your child’s age-appropriate behavior.

Click the image to sign up now!

 

Ready to test your parenting instincts? Take our free Quiz to see how these strategies could work for you! Click the banner below.

Affiliate Links

The Other End of the Leash by Dr. Patricia McConnell

How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend by The Monks of New Skete

Parenting Beyond Power by Jen Lumanlan

 

 

 

 

00:03     Introduction to Your Parenting Mojo Podcast

03:09     Acknowledgment of Listeners and Financial Support

04:39     Jen's Experience with Dog Training at the East Bay SPCA

06:47     Introduction to Dog Training Hacks

10:30     Hack 10: Creating a Culture of Consent

10:42     Hack 9: Not Dominating Our Children

15:38     Hack 8: Identifying Pressure Points

19:09     Hack 7: Don't Repeat Yourself

20:19     Hack 6: Shouting Doesn't Gain Compliance

22:42     Hack 5: Not Expecting Immediate Compliance

26:30     Hack 4: Getting Comfortable with Dysregulation

31:55     Hack 3: Co-Regulating with Your Child

34:30     Hack 2: Supporting Skill Building in Stressful Situations

39:40     Hack 1: Understanding Non-Verbal Communication

49:28      Conclusion and Call to Action

 

 

McConnell, P. (2002). The other end of the leash: Why we do what we do around dogs. Random House.

The Monks of New Skete. (2002). How to be your dog's best friend: A training manual for dog owners. Little, Brown and Company.

Lumanlan, J. (2023). Parenting beyond power: How to use connection and collaboration to transform your family—and the world.

 

 

 

Expert strategies for baby's growth and development beyond Wonder Weeks

 

In Part 2 of our Wonder Weeks series, we’re exploring how to support your baby’s development once a Wonder Week has passed. Is there a predictable schedule to follow, or is your baby’s crying tied to something unique?

 

In this episode, we’ll dive into:

✨ What research says about crying and developmental stages.

✨ The cultural influences behind parenting decisions and baby care.

✨ Strategies to support your baby through challenging times, Wonder Week or not.

✨ Ways to handle stress and ensure both you and your baby thrive.

 

Whether your baby follows the Wonder Weeks timeline or forges their own path, this episode equips you with the insights and tools you need to nurture their growth.

 

Click below to explore Right From The Start and prepare for a smoother, more empowered first year with your baby!

 

 

The Wonder Weeks by Dr. Frans  Plooij and Hetty van de Rijt

Childhood Unlimited: Parenting Beyond the Gender Bias by Virginia Mendez

 

Episode 230: Do all babies have Wonder Weeks? Here’s what the research says

Episode 138: Most of What You Know About Attachment is Probably Wrong

Episode 72: What is RIE?

Episode 084: The science of RIE

Episode 173: Why we shouldn’t read the Your X-Year-Old child books anymore

Episode 137: Psychological Flexibility through ACT with Dr. Diana Hill

Episode 075: Should we Go Ahead and Heap Rewards On Our Kid?

Episode 066: Is the 30 Million Word Gap real?

Episode 072: Is the 30 Million Word Gap Real: Part II

Episode 031: Parenting beyond pink and blue

Episode 017: Don’t bother trying to increase your child’s self-esteem

Episode 061: Can Growth Mindset live up to the hype?

 

00:00 Introduction to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast

01:49 Exploring the Developmental Leaps in Wonder Weeks

02:50 Critical Analysis of Leap Descriptions

12:04 Evaluating Leap Seven and Leap Eight

14:23 Parental Concerns and Cultural Influences

19:31 The Role of Social Support in Parenting

19:47 Addressing Fussy Periods and Parental Stress

44:34 The Evolution and Function of Regression Periods

51:10 Critique of Wonder Weeks' Parenting Advice

57:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

 

Alink, L. R. A., Mesman, J., van Zeijl, J., Stolk, M. N., Juffer, F., Koot, H. M., Bakermans-Kranenburg, M. J., & van IJzendoorn, M. H. (2006). The early aggression curve: Development of physical aggression in 10- to 50- month old children. Child Development, 77(4), 954-966.

Brix, N., Ernst, A., Lauridsen, L. L. B., Parner, E., Støvring, H., Olsen, J., ... & Ramlau‐Hansen, C. H. (2019). Timing of puberty in boys and girls: A population‐based study. Paediatric and Perinatal Epidemiology, 33(1), 70-78.

Feldman, D. H., & Benjamin, A. C. (2004). Going backward to go forward: The critical role of regressive movement in cognitive development. Journal of Cognition and Development, 5(1), 97-102.

Gopnik, A., & Meltzoff, A. N. (1985). From people, to plans, to objects: Changes in the meaning of early words and their relation to cognitive development. Journal of Pragmatics, 9(4), 495-512.

Green, B. L., Furrer, C., & McAllister, C. (2007). How do relationships support parenting? Effects of attachment style and social support on parenting behavior in an at-risk population. American Journal of Community Psychology, 40, 96-108.

Hall, E. S., Folger, A. T., Kelly, E. A., & Kamath-Rayne, B. D. (2013). Evaluation of gestational age estimate method on the calculation of preterm birth rates. Maternal and Child Health Journal, 18, 755-762.

Horwich, R. H. (1974). Regressive periods in primate behavioral development with reference to other mammals. Primates, 15, 141-149.

Jusczyk, P. W., & Krumhansl, C. L. (1993). Pitch and rhythmic patterns affecting infants' sensitivity to musical phrase structure. Journal of Experimental Psychology: Human Perception and Performance, 19(3), 627.

Krumhansl, C. L., & Jusczyk, P. W. (1990). Infants’ perception of phrase structure in music. Psychological Science, 1(1), 70-73.

Luger, C. (2018, January 8). Chelsey Luger: The cradleboard is making a comeback among tribal families. Yes! Magazine. Retrieved from https://indianz.com/News/2018/01/08/chelsey-luger-the-cradleboard-is-making.asp.

Mizuno, T., et al. (1970). Maturation patterns of EEG basic waves of healthy infants under twelve-months of age. The Tohoku Journal of Experimental Medicine, 102(1), 91-98.

Nez Perce Historical Park (n.d.). Cradleboard. Author. Retrieved from https://www.nps.gov/museum/exhibits/nepe/exb/dailylife/GenderRoles/cradleboards/NEPE57_Cradle-Board.html.

Plooij, F. X. (2020). The phylogeny, ontogeny, causation and function of regression periods explained by reorganizations of the hierarchy of perceptual control systems. In The Interdisciplinary Handbook of Perceptual Control Theory (pp. 199-225). Academic Press.

Sadurní, M., Pérez Burriel, M., & Plooij, F. X. (2010). The temporal relation between regression and transition periods in early infancy. The Spanish Journal of Psychology, 13(1), 112-126.

Sadurní, M., & Rostan, C. (2003). Reflections on regression periods in the development of Catalan infants. In Regression Periods in Human Infancy (pp. 7-22). Psychology Press.

Seehagen, S., et al. (2015). Timely sleep facilitates declarative memory consolidation in infants. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 112(5), 1625-1629.

Tremblay, R. E. (2004). Decade of behavior distinguished lecture: Development of physical aggression during infancy. Infant Mental Health Journal, 25(5), 399-407.

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control (n.d.). CDC’s Developmental Milestones. Retrieved from https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/milestones/index.html.

Wapner, J. (2020, April 15). Are sleep regressions real? The New York Times. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/15/parenting/baby/sleep-regression.html.

 

 

Emma  00:00

Emma. Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives, but we're surrounded by conflicting information and click bait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a free infographic on the 13 Reasons Your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one, just head on over to yourparenting mojo.com/subscribe, and pretty soon you're going to get tired of hearing my voice. Read this intro, so come and record one yourself at your parenting mojo.com/recordtheintro.

 

Jen Lumanlan  00:45

Hello and welcome to the second of our two part episode on the Wonder weeks on the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. In part one of this mini series, we looked at the research that underpins the concept of regression periods, which is the idea that babies go through periods where they are more fussy than usual, because they're getting ready to make a developmental leap. In that episode, we saw that, while we might assume that given the global distribution of the Wonder weeks, book and app, that the information is based on studies of 1000s of babies from many different locations, which all came to similar conclusions, that actually they're based on one single study and three attempted replications with a total of about 80 children, all of European parents who were specifically selected because they were homogenous, meaning they were white and in two parent families and had secure incomes, and the mother planned to stay home with the baby for two years and had lots of family support, if not all of those conditions were in place, then the whole thing kind of fell apart pretty fast. In this episode, I want to take a closer look at the developmental part of the leaps, rather than the fussiness. And the timing of the fussiness. I look back at the ploys earliest paper describing the leaps to see where they got the idea that leaps exist and what they mean. I wanted to understand whether, even though there might be disagreements about when the fussy periods are, we could still get some useful information out of knowing more about the developmental periods that the ploys say happen in between the fussy periods. So we're going to look at the evidence for the development that the ploys say happens in each of these periods, and also consider what, if anything, we should do with that information to support our babies and ourselves. The ploys research mostly focuses on the fussy behavior that precedes the leaps, both because it's much easier to measure than the development itself, as well as because that's perhaps understandably what parents are worried about. They want to know that what they're going through is normal and that they aren't responsible for the difficult behavior they're seeing, but in the books, they also describe the development that's apparently happening in between the fussy periods. So let's see what evidence we can find that supports their descriptions. The first thing that stands out to me in the LEAP section of the Wonder weeks website is how fuzzy the languages. Here's an example, conveniently drawn from leap one. Quote from week four, your baby enters leap one, the world of sensations. The first signals of your baby's leap will appear between weeks four to six after the due date. Learn everything about leap one in the Wonder weeks app after this leap, baby senses will undergo a sudden, rapid growth. Your baby will notice that something new and strange is happening and in their world, and they could get upset after taking leap one. Your baby will be open for new experiences, and we will notice that he or she is more sensitive. End quote, uh, what? What does this actually mean? It's like grasping at fog. There's no specific terms here that we can research ourselves, no indication that this sudden, rapid growth of baby senses that they're describing is based in research. How on earth are they measuring that babies are more open for new experiences and are also more sensitive? I went through all of the language describing the leaps and tried to find evidence supporting each of them, I looked for terms that actually meant something and ran them through Google Scholar with variations of search terms related to infant development, and I didn't find very much. After going through leap two, the ploys say that, quote, your baby stops seeing the world as one big mishmash and starts to discover patterns. End, quote, I couldn't find any specific information on pattern recognition at this age, the one paper I did find observed that the development of pattern recognition, not just in terms of visual patterns, but also patterns in language and relationships, is ongoing throughout the early years. There's no mention of a specific leap around week 10, moving on to leap three. Around 11 weeks, you may see signs of the next leap approaching. Leap three. The world of smooth transitions, your baby is acquiring yet another new skill. Smooth transitions are things, whether tones, the brightness of light or moving objects that smoothly change into something else. Smooth transitions are so natural to adults that we barely notice them anymore. For your baby, these are the most complex things they can handle, and are therefore peak experiences. It was hard to find any evidence related to this. The paper I did find was written by two authors who are both psychologists, and one is also an ophthalmologist, who showed that visual functions of symmetry, COVID, linearity, motion, depth, acuity, these are all beginning to develop from birth until they show more adult like signatures at seven to eight months with no specific shift in the 11 to 13 week window. Leap four involves grabbing objects which we can actually find evidence to support. This is a common enough milestone it shows up in developmental charts. Deploys also suggest that infants will start babbling in this period around four months, when developmental charts published by the Centers for Disease Control put this at closer to six months. So the ploys are right when they say in the Wonder weeks book that they mention their skills really are on the earliest possible end of when they might appear. I couldn't find any evidence at all for leap five on putting together the relationships between all the earlier leaps. Leap six on dividing the world into categories or groups, or LEAP seven on beginning to assemble and connect things rather than only deconstruct them. Leap eight is described in such weird language that I initially couldn't understand it. It involves the ability to observe and perform various programs. And when I put that together with the idea that the child will learn that an end goal can be achieved in different ways, I finally understood that they're talking about planning, they also pick up this idea in the LEAP nine description. Welcome to the world of principles. If your toddler has taken the leap, you will notice they are running all kinds of programs more smoothly, more naturally and more clearly. Around 64 weeks, your toddler will be a bit used to their new world and the journey of discovery can begin. Leaf nine is the leap of principles. Your toddler is more adept at handling the world of programs. As a result, they can not only imitate programs better, but also change them and create them by themselves. As a result, your little one will learn to think ahead, to reflect, to consider the consequences of their actions, to make plans and to balance them against each other. When we put these two leaps together, we can finally find solid evidence. Dr Allison gottnick and her colleagues did some work on this topic in the 1980s which is not cited in any of the Wonder weeks books which argues that the words there no and more represent baby's plans. Specifically, there encodes the success of a plan, no encodes the failure of a plan, and more encodes the repetition of a plan or a request for assistance. These words are also used to encode relationships between objects there encodes the location of objects, more encodes the similarity of objects, meaning this thing I just had and that thing over there, the same and I want more of it. And no is used to negate propositions around 18 months, children apply these words to their current concerns, right around the 64 weeks predicted by leap nine, although rather later than leap eight, where it's first discussed, the description of LEAP 10 is that you will notice that your toddler is a little more enterprising. They are behaving more maturely. They become very aware of themselves, gain a better understanding of time, begin to really enjoy music, and they treat things and toys differently. They want to do everything by themselves. And I'm thinking, Well, yes, it would be sort of surprising if, all things equal, your child wasn't behaving more maturely as time went on. A child is going to gain a better understanding of time as time goes on, as it were, from the early days in infancy, when they had no idea where you went, when you disappeared, to being able to predict when something will happen that comes on a daily basis to understanding what just a minute means, which, when we say is almost never just one minute, their understanding of time is continually evolving. I also have a video of my daughter, Karis, at about eight months, sitting on a mat and swaying in time to someone's guitar playing, clearly enjoying music. I'm not seeing anything unique in treating things and toys differently, which can happen at a variety of ages for a variety of different reasons. Holovitz brings us to how does the Wonder weeks help? Why do so many people follow this stuff I mentioned in the last episode on this topic that I ran a definitely unscientific poll in the free Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group to understand whether parents knew that they had to base the timing of the Wonder weeks on the child's gestational age when they responded to the survey. Some parents added comments about their experience with the program. Parent Anker said, we use the app, and it helped us tremendously. I have since learned there is much to criticize about the concept, but the perceived knowledge of what was happening for our baby made it easier for us to deal with the increased fussiness and difficult nights, and I really think that's at the heart of it. It's about seeing that there might be a reason why your child is...

You may have noticed that your baby sometimes seems calm and relaxed…and then goes through a ‘fussy’ phase, where they seem to cry no matter what you do.  Do these fussy phases happen on a predictable schedule?  Is it predictable for all babies…and for all parents?

In this episode, we dive into the research behind the theory of the Wonder Weeks, as described in the books and app. This popular concept suggests that all babies experience predictable periods of fussiness in preparation for going through developmental ‘leaps,’ but the science behind it may be much more limited than you expect. We break down the available research, explain why babies might cry more at certain stages, and help parents understand the truth about these so-called Wonder Weeks.

 

What topics do we cover?

How Wonder Weeks became a popular theory

What actual research says about baby crying phases

Ways to support your baby during fussy times, whether or not Wonder Weeks apply

 

By the end, you’ll feel more informed about why babies cry and have a clearer idea of whether Wonder Weeks is a useful tool for understanding your baby’s needs.

In the Right From The Start course, you’ll learn exactly how to support your baby during these challenging times, and how to create a secure, loving environment that nurtures their growth at every stage.

 

What you’ll get from Right From The Start:

Practical advice for sleep, feeding, and developmental milestones—especially during those Wonder Weeks!

Insights into how your baby’s brain develops, and what’s really going on during those early (and sometimes challenging) months.

Tools for managing routine activities like diapering, dressing, and communication, with strategies that align with your baby’s natural development.Beyond the knowledge, you’ll also gain access to a supportive community of parents who are navigating the same challenges, so you never have to feel alone.

 

Click below to explore Right From The Start and prepare for a smoother, more empowered first year with your baby!

 

SYPM 016: Getting it right from the start with a new baby 

Episode 138: Most of What You Know About Attachment is Probably Wrong

Episode 72: What is RIE?

Episode 084: The science of RIE

Episode 173: Why we shouldn’t read the Your X-Year-Old child books anymore

Episode 137: Psychological Flexibility through ACT with Dr. Diana Hill

Episode 075: Should we Go Ahead and Heap Rewards On Our Kid?

Episode 066: Is the 30 Million Word Gap real?

Episode 072: Is the 30 Million Word Gap Real: Part II

Episode 031: Parenting beyond pink and blue

Episode 017: Don’t bother trying to increase your child’s self-esteem

 

 

00:03 Introduction to the Podcast and Wonder Weeks

02:19 Background on the Plooys and Their Research

05:43 Methodology and Findings of the Plooys' Study

10:20 Criticisms and Limitations of the Plooys' Study

20:11 Replication Studies and Their Findings

59:42 Conclusions and Implications

 

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Denise  00:03

Denise, hi everyone. I am Denise, a longtime listener of your parenting Mojo. I love this podcast because it condenses all the scientific research on child development, compares it with anthropological studies, and puts it into context of how I can apply all of this to my daily parenting. Jen has a wealth of resources here, so if you're new to the podcast, I suggest you scroll through all her episodes. I'm sure you'll find one that will help you with whatever you're going through, or one that just piques your interest if you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox, along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons Your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one. Sign up at your parenting mojo.com forward, slash, subscribe. Enjoy the show.

 

Jen Lumanlan  00:58

Hello and welcome to the your parenting Mojo podcast. Have you seen the Wonder weeks book, or did you download the app? The book has apparently sold over 2 million copies, and the app has been downloaded over 4 million times. So, the approach has certainly struck a chord with parents. It seems to help that the book was developed by two PhDs, Dr Franz ploy and his wife, Hetty vanderai ploy, whom I will refer to together as the ploys. And I know that when I see PhD following the neighbor of an author, I perceive the author as having some credibility. They've now been joined by their daughter, Xavier plus ploy, as the CEO of the Wonder weeks. Apparently, Hetty actually died quite young in 2003 so when you hear me refer to Dr ploy. Later in the episode, is Dr Franz ploy. So, in this upcoming pair of episodes, I want to ask two overarching questions. In this first episode, we'll ask is the idea of Wonder weeks backed up by scientific research. And then in the upcoming episode, we'll ask, okay, based on what we learned here in the first episode, what if anything should we do with the ideas in the book to help us and our baby? So, if you're expecting or you have a child under the age of one, this episode is very much for you. Let's get started with our first question and look at the scientific research behind the Wonder. Weeks. So, Franz ploy studied biology and psychology. His wife, Hetty, studied educational psychology and anthropology, and together, they observed chimpanzees with Jane Goodall in Gombe National Park in Tanzania between 1971 and 1973.

 

Jen Lumanlan  02:30

Franz obtained his PhD in the behavioral development of chimpanzee babies, and Hetty got hers in mother baby interaction in chimpanzees. Because these dissertations were submitted in the early 1980s and fortunately, I couldn't find any copies online, possibly as part of their dissertations or in related work. The employees noticed that baby chimpanzees seemed to go through a series of what they termed regression periods, by which they meant a return to behavior like clinging to their mother and nursing often which they hadn't done so much only a week or so previously. The ploys hypothesized that each of these regression periods was followed by a developmental leap, and they wondered whether similar periods might exist among human babies. Several previous researchers had generally coalesced around the idea that there are four major behavioral transitions in human babies. And in the late 1980s the ploys began a research project to see if these were all of the transitions, or if they could find any more. And they decided to do this by identifying periods of regressive behavior in babies, because there was agreement in the literature that these regressive periods accompanied developmental transitions. They say that this literature finds that some sort of transitions do exist, and that these occur at two, 712, and 18 to 21 months. Unfortunately, the literature here mostly consists of books rather than peer reviewed papers. It's not an exaggeration to say you can pretty much publish anything you want in a book. That's why we have the peer review process in journals, so other people look at papers before they're published and check that they are grounded in previous literature. It isn't a perfect process by any stretch of the imagination, but at least you know someone who knows the subject has checked it out. The ploys cite 13 authors or sets of authors in support of this claim, so I tried to track each of them down. Unfortunately, seven of them were book chapters or books themselves, and of course, these are books published in the 1970s and 80s, so I wasn't able to get a hold of them. One paper was a discussion about relationships between peer infants, which isn't...

How to Raise Kids and Live Our Values in Divisive Times

 

Chances are, if you're thinking of listening to this podcast episode, the 2024 election didn't go the way you hoped it would.

 

A lot of people are feeling scared right now. I've heard some people wanting to fight, while others want to hunker down. I've had both of those feelings myself over the last few weeks.

 

I don't usually wade into current events. My brain needs time to process and digest and preferably take in a lot of peer-reviewed research before I can decide what I think.

 

I tried to do something different in this episode: I did read a lot, but I only took notes and then spoke mostly extemporaneously. And now you've seen the length of this episode you'll know why I don't do that very often.

 

How do our values shape political views and actions?

How can we make sense of the way that liberals and conservatives prioritize different values?

Is it possible that liberals haven't been truly honest about how we live our values?

What kinds of actions can we take to create true belonging so we don't have to grasp at power?

How can we create true belonging in our families, to live our values honestly and completely?

 

I hope you find this thought-provoking and useful as we all start to think about the ways we can move forward - and keep everyone safe.

 

179: I Never Thought of It That Way with Mónica Guzmán and Lulu

114: How to stop ‘Othering’ and instead ‘Build Belonging’

221: How to advocate for the schools our children deserve with Allyson Criner Brown & Cassie Gardener Manjikian

 

(Affiliate links)

Parenting Beyond Power: How to Use Connection and Collaboration to Transform Your Family - and the World, by Jen Lumanlan

Belonging without Othering, by John A. Powell and Stephen Menendian

Schedule your own Red/Blue conversation through Braver Angels

 

03:50 References to Dr. John Powell’s and Dr. Jonathan Haidt’s work, particularly The Righteous Mind, exploring political views.

04:45 Explanation of Haidt's five moral foundations and their impact on political perspectives.

07:00 Comparison of liberal and conservative priorities around moral foundations.

08:36 Discussion on care, fairness, loyalty, authority, and sanctity in policies.

10:46 Exploration of government intervention, wealth redistribution, immigration, and in-group loyalty.

13:06 Discussion on understanding and addressing the underlying needs of both groups.

17:46 Examples of Social Security and the GI Bill’s exclusionary practices.

19:16 Discussion of economic disparities and the call for fair, inclusive policies.

22:38 References to sociologist Arlie Hochschild’s work on the economic story behind Trump’s support.

24:00 Examination of cultural and economic factors influencing Trump’s voter base.

28:50 Examples of identity threats leading to group cohesion.

32:30 Advocacy for listening to Trump voters to understand their perspectives.

36:39 Explanation of targeted universalism to create inclusive policies.

38:25 Emphasis on policies that promote belonging and equity for all groups.

47:03 Discussion on the need for a new vision of masculinity and racially integrated relationships.

52:04 Emphasis on men understanding and supporting their partners’ needs.

01:00:53 Health benefits of belonging and the need to address exclusion.

01:03:27 Encouragement for civic engagement and understanding diverse perspectives to build an inclusive society.

01:28:07 Jen’s closing message on creating a world where everyone belongs.

 

 

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Adrian 00:03

Adrian, Hi, I'm Adrien in suburban Chicagoland, and this is your parenting Mojo with Jen Lumanlan. Jen is working on a series of episodes based on the challenges you are having with your child, from tooth brushing to sibling fighting to the endless resistance to whatever you ask, Jen will look across all the evidence from 1000s of scientific papers across a whole range of topics related to parenting and child development to help you see solutions to the issue you're facing that hadn't seen possible before. If you'd like a personalized answer to your challenge, just make a video if possible, or an audio clip if not. That's less than one minute long that describes what's happening, and email it to support at your parentingmojo.com and listen out for your episode soon.

Jen Lumanlan 00:52

Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Last time I did an episode like this was in January of 2020, right after the US capital was stormed. And so this is the only episode I've done since then that focuses on current events, and it is not one that I have tightly scripted, because I would have taken another two weeks to be able to do that. And so it's definitely an episode that I don't feel totally comfortable with. So I just want you to kind of know that going in, I don't find it easy to comment on current issues, because I need time to process and digest but this was kind of too big to let pass. So I find it hard to know what to say about big events like the election, because I'm not a political analyst, and frankly, it kind of drives me up the wall when people who don't have much knowledge about child development and parenting, uh, kind of like, you know, economists tell us how to raise our children, and because making the best decisions for one family using economic rationale doesn't help us to create a society that benefits all families. And so if you have sophisticated political analysis, you may find mine to be lacking. It's mostly drawn from other sources which are cited in the references for this episode. I do draw very heavily on Dr John Powell's work, and you can hear from him in our episode 114 on how to stop othering and instead build belonging. And he has a new book out that I was very interested to read, and I also draw heavily on Dr Jonathan Heights work as well. So what I'm going to do today is to kind of share some ideas that I hesitate to share because they may not be popular with listeners. Not everybody sees the connections between politics and parenting or wants to see them. Parents have told me that they put off episodes related to social issues that I have recorded for, quote, unquote when they have time, and that they focus primarily on the episodes that will help them with their children's behavior, which I totally get. But then they tell me, Well, I just, you know, I never have time. And so I do wonder, Are we a little more willing today to start to see the connections between the ways that we are raising our children, between the political climate and you know, our children's future. And so a lot of people have already written about why Trump won, and so I'm going to draw on those ideas and try to understand what that means for our families, for our culture, for where we go from here, connecting quite a few different ideas from different places. Because I think the argument that all the people who voted for Trump are racist misogynist is kind of dangerous. I don't think that that's really real. Maybe some of them are for sure, most of them are not. And so why did they vote for him? Where do we go from here? Can we avoid going through this again? And if so, how do we do that? And so the first tool that I'm going to draw on is Dr Jonathan Haidt model The Righteous Mind. And I have to give a hat tip to Dr Ari Parsi, whom I interviewed in a podcast episode a few months ago, and she was the person who introduced me to his work. I actually read it after I had already written parenting beyond power, and as I read it, I was like, yes, yes, yes. And I wish all of this could have been in the book as well. So it was too late that ship had sailed by that point, and so the purpose of the book is to to kind of uncover how liberals and conservatives have such different ideas about what's right and what's wrong, and the underlying idea is that our opinions are really kind of based on gut instincts about our morality rather than reason. And so there's one central graph that's in the book, and I'm going to post these charts that I'm going to walk you through, sort of verbally on the episode page, so that you can go and see them for yourself. And so the first chart is one that I basically rebuilt directly from his book, and he illustrates how liberals and conservatives perceive different issues. He has these five major foundations, and Haidt argues that we evolved each of them to help us cope with specific challenges that we face throughout our evolutionary history. So these five foundations, the first one is the care harm Foundation, which helps us to care for vulnerable children, makes us sensitive to signs of suffering and need, makes us despise cruelty and care for those who are suffering. The fairness cheating Foundation helps us to cooperate with each other. It makes us sensitive to indicators that other people are likely to be good partners for collaboration, and makes us want to punish cheaters. The loyalty and betrayal Foundation helps us to develop group coalitions that are essential for survival, where we become sensitive to signs that another person is a team player, and makes us trust and reward people who are team players and hurt those that betray our group. The authority subversion Foundation helps us to forge relationships that will benefit us within social hierarchies, and makes us sensitive to signs of rank or status and to signs that other people are behaving properly given their position. And then finally, the sanctity degradation Foundation helps us to cope with the potential risks and rewards of eating a wide variety of foods, and now the challenge of living in a world of pathogens and parasites. And so the diagram kind of shows, you know, given these five foundations, how important are these two different groups of voters? And so the key thing that you can kind of see in this diagram is that liberals see care and fairness as incredibly important to almost four on a scale of zero to five, with zero not being at all relevant to their views, and five being extremely relevant. And liberals see loyalty, authority and sanctity as not being very relevant to them at all, between kind of a one to 1.5 on that zero to five scale, conservatives put these issues in roughly the same order of importance as liberals, but rate them much more evenly. All cluster between two and two and a half on that scale of zero to five. And so the way that we express these foundations is also very different, and liberals will use policies like health care to provide care right, health care for all conservatives want to be able to provide for their family in a way that they see best and don't want the government interfering in their lives. So conservatives see care as being relatively less important than liberals do, and also the way that they want to provide care for their families differs from the way that liberals want to do that. Liberals want to redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor, while conservatives think that each person should take care of themselves, and if they can't do that, then their church should help them, because accepting help that you haven't earned is called free riding, and is not acceptable, right? Liberals are willing to accept a degree of free riding to know that wealth is being redistributed and that everybody kind of has what they need to survive. Liberals talk about getting rid of in groups, which leads us to things like open immigration policies and conservatives primary loyalty is to their in group, the people who are already there. And kind of thinking back to a book that I read on New Mexican history a while ago, and I had never fully wondered why Hispanic Latino voters vote for conservatives, and that book helped me to understand that there's the people who are have been in the US, the who identify as Hispanic or Latin X for generations, see themselves very differently as immigrants that are crossing the border, and the old timers kind of see, you know, I've been here forever. I've been here before this country was even a country, and you all are just, you know, Johnny come lately, who are trying to flout the rules, and that's not okay, and illegal immigrants should be kicked out. So I had perceived this kind of shared heritage as a reason why Hispanics, Latinos should be kind of supporting immigration when actually people are seeing it very differently. Liberals want to flatten hierarchical power structures to increase equality. So conservatives like the hierarchical power structures of church. They like having a strong president who's going to lay down the law to others, and the idea of lawlessness is not okay. And then there's the cleanliness purity, right? How pure is the in group? So liberal see everyone's ability to be their whole selves is important, and that kind of fits with the care fairness Foundation, whereas conservatives perceive this as contamination. And so conservative viewpoint might be that transgender people are a threat to the natural order of the two sexes, and so they see this as a contamination. And Seth Moulton, who's a Democratic Representative in Massachusetts, said Democrats spend way too much time trying not to offend anyone rather than being brutally honest about the challenges many Americans face. He said, I have two little girls. I don't want them getting run over on a playing field by a male or formerly male athlete. But as a Democrat, I'm supposed to be afraid to say that. So that kind of walks through kind of the five moral foundations and how they fit together. So if you can basically kind of imagine this arrow shape where we've got kind of liberals on the left really kind of thinking this. Because the you know, the care and fairness are really important, and also the loyalty to the in groups is not so important, right? We should get rid of the in groups. We should flatten power structures. We don't really see these contaminants as a threat. So there's a real bifurcation between those two things. And as we head over to the right side of the diagram, where we represent conservatives, all of those are considered much more evenly. They're much more evenly important to conservatives. And so after the election, I was just kind of thinking, Okay, can I translate this into the idea of needs that we talk about on the show? And if you're not sure kind of what needs are, I would definitely encourage you to go to yourparentingmojo.com. Forward slash needs and there is a list of needs there, and I basically use that list to try to think through, okay, what do these concepts mean to the people who hold them as best I can, right? Obviously, I identify as a liberal. I don't fully understand the conservative position, but based on Jonathan Haidt explanation, can I understand what needs conservatives are trying to fill, and also what needs Democrats are trying to fill, right? And so I so I'm sort of thinking through, okay, well, care for all. It means care for everybody, right? Care for for everybody is casting the net as broadly as we possibly can, and government is the mechanism through which this happened. And so sort of big government is kind of necessary to be able to make that care for everybody happen. Conservatives on the other side are kind of seeing, you know, care for few is the most important, and autonomy is super, super important as well. I want to decide what's best for my family. I don't want the government telling me what's best for my family. I perceive that as government overreach. And then there's sort of the, you know, the fairness equality obviously very important to liberals, and that contrasts with the independence and self reliance that's really important to conservatives. So liberals will say, you know, every person gets what they need, and conservatives will say, Well, every person gets what they earn, because what's in my pocket is most important. Loyalty is about group belonging and how wide we draw that circle. So conservatives will draw a pretty narrow circle around family and church, and liberals will draw that circle really wide and say, you know, everybody belongs. Liberals want the freedom that comes with flattening and subverting power structures a strong hierarchy where there's kind of God at the top, and then the President and men in charge feels comfortable for conservatives. So there shouldn't be any lawlessness. When we think about the Israel, Palestine, Israel is seen as civilization in the Middle East, rather than, you know, free Palestine, sort of subverting the power structure that's in place there. And then finally, you know, liberals think that my and your and everyone's self expression enhances the group's beauty, and conservatives see that self expression as threatening the group's purity. So there, we're talking about sort of needs related to self expression and cleanliness and purity. So, you know, obviously this is where you get the culture wars. So Trump has sexual impurity, right? That's pretty obvious, but other factors are more important to people who vote for him. And so then I started to think, well, you know, is there some overarching need or set of needs that kind of sits over all of these needs for liberals and sits over all of these needs for conservatives? And what I eventually realized was that we can ladder them all up to safety, but that safety means different things to each of the two groups. So for liberals, safety means the ability to be and express our whole selves, basically to be in integrity, right to have these values and live in alignment with our values. And for conservatives, safety is about having the ability to provide for my family, and in a capitalist society, that means having enough money and the autonomy to decide how I spend it government doesn't get to make that decision, and also the autonomy to decide, like think, cultural things in my community that...