Coaching for Leaders

Christina Maslach: The Burnout Challenge

Christina Maslach is the pioneer of research on job burnout, producing the standard assessment tool called the Maslach Burnout Inventory, award-winning articles, and several books, beginning with Burnout: The Cost of Caring, in 1982. Her research achievements over the past five decades have led to multiple awards from the National Academy of Sciences, Western Psychological Association, Society for Personality and Social Psychology, and many others.

Christina has received awards for her outstanding teaching, including USA Professor of the Year in 1997. She has been a Professor of Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley since 1971. Christina is now a core researcher at the Healthy Workplaces Center, at Berkeley, and the author along with Michael Leiter of The Burnout Challenge: Managing People's Relationships With Their Jobs*.

In this conversation, Christina and I address the reality that burnout is often perceived as an issue with just the individual. We explore how leaders can begin to look at the larger picture: context, culture, and management, in order to address burnout more proactively. We discuss key mindsets that will help and a few tactics that almost every leader can use to get started.

Key Points

The canary in the coal mine is an indicator of a problem, not the source of it.

Our tendency is to focus on the person (the figure) and to miss all the context and environment factors (the ground).

Burnout is first and foremost a management issue. “Fixing” the person should not be the focus — instead, get curious about where there is a mismatch.

Instead of focusing on what’s wrong with the person, shift to what may be wrong in the relationship between the person and situation.

Ensure you have a plan for communicating survey results. If you’d done surveys previously, share those results and also the actions the organization had taken before engaging in more surveys.

Resources Mentioned

The Burnout Challenge: Managing People's Relationships With Their Jobs* by Christina Maslach and Michael Leiter

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

Gallup Findings on the Changing Nature of Work, with Jim Harter (episode 409)

How to Reduce Burnout, with Jennifer Moss (episode 561)

How to Compare Yourself to Others, with Mollie West Duffy (episode 582)

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Annie Duke: Quit

Annie Duke is an author, corporate speaker, and consultant in the decision-making space, as well as Special Partner focused on Decision Science at First Round Capital Partners, a seed stage venture fund. Her previous book, Thinking in Bets, is a national bestseller. As a former professional poker player, she has won more than $4 million in tournament poker. During her career, Annie won a World Series of Poker bracelet and is the only woman to have won the World Series of Poker Tournament of Champions and the NBC National Poker Heads-Up Championship. She retired from the game in 2012. Prior to becoming a professional poker player, she was awarded a National Science Foundation Fellowship to study Cognitive Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania.

Annie is the co-founder of The Alliance for Decision Education, a non-profit whose mission is to improve lives by empowering students through decision skills education. She is a member of the National Board of After-School All-Stars and the Board of Directors of the Franklin Institute. She also serves on the board of the Renew Democracy Initiative. Annie is the author of Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away*.

We’ve all heard the lie that, “Winners never quit and quitters never win.” In reality, one of the best practices to develop is how to recognize more quickly when you should quit something that’s not working. In this conversation, Annie and I discuss how to set kill criteria for yourself and frame goals in more helpful ways to know when quitting is the best answer.

Key Points

Kenny Rogers was right; professional poker players know that a big part of success is quitting approximately 75% of the time.

“Quit while you’re ahead” is often poor advice since we tend to quit too early when good things are happening. On the contrary, we tend to quit too late when we’ve accumulated sunk cost.

Determine kill criteria in advance when you’re not as likely to be swayed by the emotions of the moment. The best criteria contain both a state and a date.

Find someone who loves you but doesn’t care about your feelings. Trust and permission are essential to open up these kinds of conversations.

Effective goals include at least one “unless…”

Resources Mentioned

Quit: The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away* by Annie Duke

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

How to Pivot Quickly, with Steve Blank (episode 476)

The Way to Make Better Decisions, with Annie Duke (episode 499)

How to Build Confidence, with Katy Milkman (episode 533)

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Kristin Keffeler: The Myth of the Silver Spoon

Kristin Keffeler is a thought leader and consultant at the forefront of a global shift in family wealth advising, known as Wealth 3.0. She guides affluent and enterprising families, the rising generation, and the professionals who support them in embracing the positive power of wealth, aligning their vision with their impact. As the founder of Illumination360, she specializes in human motivation and behavioral change, family dynamics, family governance, rising generation education and development, and intergenerational collaboration.

She is the Dean of Positive Psychology for the Purposeful Planning Institute, sits on the Board of Advisors for the Bailey Program for Family Enterprise at the University of Denver, is a faculty member with the Ultra-High Net Worth Institute, a certified trainer with 21/64, a national nonprofit for advancing multigenerational philanthropy, and is the co-founder of Beneficiary Bootcamp. She is the author of The Myth of the Silver Spoon: Navigating Family Wealth & Creating an Impactful Life*.

In this conversation, Kristin and I discuss a reality that’s true for almost every leader: whether we have wealth ourselves, almost all of us interact with wealthy people. We explore some of the myths of wealth to understand the psychological challenges that wealth often brings. Plus, we learn from what works (and doesn’t) for wealthy families so that we can have better conversations about wealth in our own families.

Key Points

While wealth brings resources, it also brings psychological challenges for many people with wealth.

More money doesn't equal happiness. Small inheritances can increase happiness, but large ones do not.

Many people with wealth find close relationships a bit of a struggle.

While our perception may be that the most wealthy are selfish and greedy, more often individuals (especially next generations) tend to under-identify with family wealth.

Ground decisions in values that align with a vision of thriving.

There’s a huge difference in the next generation having a little bit of ownership in a financial event vs. not having any ownership.

Resources Mentioned

The Myth of the Silver Spoon: Navigating Family Wealth & Creating an Impactful Life* by Kristin Keffeler

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

How to Reduce Drama With Kids, with Tina Payne Bryson (episode 310)

Dumb Things Smart People Do With Money, with Jill Schlesinger (episode 396)

The Way to Build Wealth, with Chris Hogan (episode 502)

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Ian Morgan Cron: The Road Back to You

Ian Morgan Cron is a bestselling author, speaker, trained psychotherapist, songwriter, and Episcopal priest, but he may be best known for popularizing the Enneagram. The Enneagram is a personality typing system identifying nine types of people and how they relate to one another and the world. His popular Enneagram book, The Road Back to You* gave fresh language and interest in this assessment.

Ian enjoys sharing about the Enneagram with audiences of all sizes because of its power for igniting personal growth, and how it can enrich our personal and professional lives. His newest book The Story of You* helps people go a step further, using Enneagram wisdom to uncover and rewrite our own false narratives so we can live life more fully.

In this conversation, Ian and I look at the core aspects of the Enneagram model and how it can help us understand ourselves better so we can also support others more effectively. We highlight the nine Enneagram types and their key traits and distinctions. Then, we discuss how the first steps leaders might take in order to start raising their own self-awareness.

Key Points

Too often we believe that how we see the world is “normal” instead of recognizing that there are many normal ways to see the world.

Personality is like the rooms of our home. We have a favorite room but we still use all the other rooms when its appropriate.

The 9 Enneagram Types

The Perfectionist - Ethical, dedicated and reliable, they are motivated by a desire to live the right way, improve the world, and avoid fault and blame.

The Helper - Warm, caring and giving, they are motivated by a need to be loved and needed, and to avoid acknowledging their own needs.

The Performer (or Achiever) - Success-oriented, image-conscious and wired for productivity, they are motivated by a need to be (or appear to be) successful and to avoid failure.

The Romantic (or Individualist) - Creative, sensitive and moody, they are motivated by a need to be understood, experience their oversized feelings and avoid being ordinary.

The Investigator - Analytical, detached and private, they are motivated by a need to gain knowledge, conserve energy and avoid relying on others.

The Loyalist - Committed, practical and witty, they are worst-case-scenario thinkers who are motivated by fear and the need for security.

The Enthusiast - Fun, spontaneous and adventurous, they are motivated by a need to be happy, to plan stimulating experiences and to avoid pain.

The Challenger - Commanding, intense and confrontational, they are motivated by a need to be strong and avoid feeling weak or vulnerable.

The Peacemaker - Pleasant, laid back and accommodating, they are motivated by a need to keep the peace, merge with others and avoid conflict.

Resources Mentioned

The Road Back to You: An Enneagram Journey to Self-Discovery* by Ian Morgan Cron and Suzanne Stabile

The Story of You: An Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self* by Ian Morgan Cron

Take the Integrative Enneagram iEQ9

Typology Institute Enneagram courses

Related Episodes

Enhance Your Self-Awareness, with Daniel Goleman (episode 353)

The Way to Be More Self-Aware, with Tasha Eurich (episode 442)

Discover Who You Are, with Hortense le Gentil (episode 459)

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Gustavo Razzetti: Remote Not Distant

Gustavo Razzetti is the CEO and founder of Fearless Culture, a culture design consultancy that helps teams do the best work of their lives. For more than 20 years, he has helped leaders from Fortune 500s, startups, nonprofits, and everything in between. He is also the creator of the Culture Design Canvas, a framework used by thousands of teams and organizations across the world to map, assess, and design their culture.

In addition to his consulting work, Gustavo regularly speaks with leaders and teams about culture change, teamwork, and hybrid workplaces. He is the author of four books on culture change. His most recent book is Remote Not Distant: Design a Company Culture That Will Help You Thrive in a Hybrid Workplace*.

In this conversation, Gustavo and I explore the critical nature of trust for building belonging on hybrid and remote teams. We examine the principles of psychological safety and how this matters just as much in digital collaboration. Perhaps most importantly, we look at several tactics to open up trust that will help us pave the ways towards team belonging.

Key Points

Hybrid work environments have the potential to be the best of both words, but in some places it is now worse.

Trust is between individuals. Psychological safety is about how safe we feel with a team.

It’s helpful to think of building psychological safety like climbing a ladder. Ironically, the higher you go on the ladder, the safer you feel taking risks.

Welcoming questions such as “What's your superpower?” and “What's your kryptonite?” can be useful starting points for building trust.

Metaphors are often a powerful way to entire into more complex, emotional discussion without feeling unsafe.

Resources Mentioned

Remote Not Distant: Design a Company Culture That Will Help You Thrive in a Hybrid Workplace* by Gustavo Razzetti

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

How to Create Team Guidelines, with Susan Gerke (episode 192)

How to Build Psychological Safety, with Amy Edmondson (episode 404)

How to Engage Remote Teams, with Tsedal Neeley (episode 537)

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Lynn Perry Wooten: The Prepared Leader

Lynn Perry Wooten is a seasoned academic and an expert on organizational development and transformation. She became the ninth president of Simmons University on July 1, 2020 and is the first African American to lead the university. Her research specializes in crisis leadership, diversity and inclusion, and positive leadership—organizational behavior that reveals and nurtures the highest level of human potential.

Lynn has also had a robust clinical practice, providing leadership development, education, and training for a wide variety of companies and institutions, from the Kellogg Foundation to Harvard University’s Kennedy School, and to Google. She is the coauthor of Arrive and Thrive: 7 Impactful Practices for Women Navigating Leadership and the coeditor of Positive Organizing in a Global Society: Understanding and Engaging Differences for Capacity Building and Inclusion. She is also the author with Erika James of The Prepared Leader: Emerge from Any Crisis More Resilient Than Before*.

In this conversation, Lynn and I discuss why crises are not isolated events, even through they are often treated that way. We explore the critical nature of trust and how to build it quickly in crisis. We then detail three key areas of trust that will help leaders begin to support a team shift towards better outcomes.

Key Points

Crises are not single events. They happen again and again, necessitating leaders preparation for them.

In normal times, trust is key. In a time of crisis, it’s essential.

Regular communication is essential in a crisis. Avoid the tendency to downplay risks. In fact, it’s useful to paint a picture of the worst case scenario.

Leaders need to determine is there is a strong sense of a contractual obligation between them and their teams.

It’s critical for leaders to assess the competence of their team to be able to respond to the crisis at hand.

Frequent, high performance meetings are essential during a time of crisis.

Resources Mentioned

The Prepared Leader: Emerge from Any Crisis More Resilient Than Before* by Lynn Perry Wooten and Erika James

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

How to Lead in Crisis, with Carol Taylor (episode 55)

How to be Diplomatic, with Susan Rice (episode 456)

The Way Out of Major Conflict, with Amanda Ripley (episode 529)

The Starting Point for Inclusive Leadership, with Susan MacKenty Brady (episode 584)

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Gemma Aguiar: Design Like Whoa

Gemma Aguiar is the CEO of Design Like Whoa. Her firm helps brands like Sephora, Meta, the Golden State Warriors, and Spotify amplify their brand and strengthen their culture through sustainably focused apparel, accessories, and gifts. Her team serves clients by curating meaningful, high-quality products through partnership with local, minority-owned, sustainable, and mission-driven businesses. She's also an alum of the Coaching for Leaders Academy.

In this episode, Gemma and I discuss the transition she made of doing it all herself early on in the business to now empowering a large team. We detail how she made this change tactically through calendar blocking, regular delegation, and intentional outcomes. Plus, we explore how asking for help is a critical muscle for all leaders to develop.

Key Points

Gemma didn’t see the growth potential in her traditional role, so she started her own, sustainable business.

Being able to do lots of things well can be a trap for leaders. Shifting to delegate effectively is key.

Getting clear on how time is used through planning and calendar blocking is essential.

The responsibility of leadership changes over time. It’s key to be able to learn and adapt as the organization demands a different skillset.

Asking for help is a critical competency for leaders. Getting better at this opens tons of doors.

Resources Mentioned

Design Like Whoa

[email protected]

Related Episodes

These Coaching Questions Get Results, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 237)

Five Steps to Hold People Accountable, with Jonathan Raymond (episode 306)

The Way to Capture the Power of Moments, with Chip Heath (episode 329)

Align Your Calendar to What Matters, with Nir Eyal (episode 431)

How to Define a Role, with Pat Griffin (episode 517)

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Jon Clifton: Blind Spot

Jon Clifton is the CEO of Gallup. His mission is to help 7 billion citizens be heard on their most pressing work and life issues through the Gallup World Poll, a 100-year initiative spanning over 150 countries. He is a nonresident senior fellow at Baylor University’s Institute for Studies of Religion and serves on the boards of directors for Gallup and Young Professionals in Foreign Policy.

Jon has been interviewed on BBC News, Axios, C-SPAN’s “Washington Journal,” and Al-Jazeera, and he has testified in front of the U.S. Congress on the state of American small business and entrepreneurship. He is a frequent contributor on Gallup.com and has written for The Hill, The Diplomatic Courier, and The Global Action Report. He is the author of Blind Spot: The Global Rise of Unhappiness and How Leaders Missed It.

In this conversation, Jon and I discuss why many objective numbers like GDP appear positive and yet don’t correlate to wellbeing and happiness. We examine how to think about more subjective measures and ways for leaders and organizations to gain insight. Plus, we dialogue about what managers can do to help make genuine connections in the workplace.

Key Points

While objective trends worldwide such as GDP and the Human Development Index have been positive for decades, people are angrier, sadder, and more worried than ever.

There’s a key distinction between how someone sees their life and how someone lives their life.

Money does not buy happiness, but it is hard to be happy without it.

Frequent conversations, listening, and framing work around strengths are key actions managers can take to address unhappiness with employees.

Examples of questions/survey topics to ask of customers to gain insight into emotional attachment:

Company always delivers on what they promise.

I feel proud to be a Company customer.

Company is the perfect company for people like me.

Examples of questions/survey topics to ask of suppliers to to gain insight into emotional attachment:

Company always treats me with respect.

Company is easy to do business with.

Company always does what they say they will do.

Resources Mentioned

Blind Spot: The Global Rise of Unhappiness and How Leaders Missed It* by Jon Clifton

CliftonStrengths (formerly StrengthsFinder) assessment

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

These Coaching Questions Get Results, with Michael Bungay Stanier (episode 237)

How Teams Use StrengthsFinder Results, with Lisa Cummings (episode 293)

How to Help People Thrive, with Jim Harter (episode 532)

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Scott Anthony Barlow: Happen to Your Career

Scott Anthony Barlow wants you to find work you love. He is CEO of Happen To Your Career and host of the Happen to Your Career podcast, which has been listened to over 3 million times across 159 countries and is the largest career change podcast in the world.

As a former HR leader, Scott has interviewed over two thousand people for jobs and completely rejects the way most organizations choose to do work. He’s a nerd for self development, human behavior, and ice hockey. He's the author of the book Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work*.

In this conversation, Scott and I discuss the assumptions that many of us bring to finding career happiness — and where those assumptions might lead us astray. We also explore in detail the process that Scott and his team use with clients: career experimenting. In addition, Scott and I share how we’ve used experimenting in our own careers to align with meaning.

Key Points

People assume that you start with clarity. In actuality, you start with declaring priorities, which is what eventually creates clarity.

Taking vacation or an extended break from work is important for many reasons, but it’s not often the activity that creates clarity.

Movement and experimenting is the way you move from declaring your priorities to creating clarity.

Use career experiments as a way to begin surfacing interests and relationships that will help you to find clarity.

Leaders should open the door to career experimentation to support employees in developing themselves inside the organization — or potentially moving onto other opportunities.

Resources Mentioned

Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work* by Scott Anthony Barlow

Finding the Career That Fits You (Scott’s FREE 8-Day Video Course)

Interview Notes

Download my interview notes in PDF format (free membership required).

Related Episodes

How to Actually Move Numbers, with Chris McChesney (episode 294)

Three Steps to Great Career Conversations, with Russ Laraway (episode 370)

Ten Years of Leadership, with Dave Stachowiak (episode 541)

How to Reduce Burnout, with Jennifer Moss (episode 561)

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Robert Lefkowitz: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Stockholm

Robert Lefkowitz is James B. Duke Professor of Medicine and Professor of Biochemistry and Chemistry at the Duke University Medical Center. His group spent 15 difficult years developing techniques for labeling the receptors with radioactive drugs and then purifying the four different receptors that were known and thought to exist for adrenaline. In 1986 Bob and his team transformed the understanding of what had become known as G protein coupled receptors, when he and his colleagues cloned the gene for the beta2-adrenergic receptor.

Today, more than half of all prescription drug sales are of drugs that target either directly or indirectly the receptors discovered by Bob and his trainees. These include amongst many others beta blockers, angiotensin receptor blockers or ARBs and antihistamines. He has received numerous honors and awards, including the National Medal of Science, the Shaw Prize, the Albany Prize, and the 2012 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. He was elected to the National Academy of Sciences, the Institute of Medicine, and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. He is the author with Randy Hall of A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Stockholm: The Adrenaline Fueled Adventures of an Accidental Scientist*.

In this conversation, Bob and I explore the important nature of mentoring in his success — and how he has in turn utilized mentoring to support so many colleagues and students. We discuss the importance of building careers around problems versus techniques and other key principles that effective mentors adopt. Plus, we explore the key of ownership of work and using fun as an indicator to follow.

Key Points

Success is rarely accidental. Most people with extraordinary accomplishments had outstanding mentors along the way.

Teach people to build their careers around problems, not techniques.

The crucial job of a mentor is to keep things in focus for the person you are mentoring — both in their current work and their careers.

People achieve the most motivation when they have ownership over their work.

A key measure of striking the right guidance between ownership and guidance is whether or not everybody is having fun.

Resources Mentioned

A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Stockholm: The Adrenaline Fueled Adventures of an Accidental Scientist* by Robert Lefkowitz

Interview Notes

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Related Episodes

What You Gain By Sponsoring People, with Julia Taylor Kennedy (episode 398)

How to Know What You Don’t Know, with Art Markman (episode 437)

How to Lead and Retain High Performers, with Ruth Gotian (episode 567)

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